Very detailed. I wasn't aware that hobbits were supposed to be descended from humans, where does that come in?
Very detailed. I wasn't aware that hobbits were supposed to be descended from humans, where does that come in?
I don't know if anyone knows where exactly they came from but I think in the History of Middle Earth there is mention that there is some relation to men, and since men still exist, they, like the Druedain, branched off early after the awakening of men in Hildorien :)
Iâve only read the Silmarillion and other Tolkien works a couple of times, but the absence of Hobbit lineage always struck me as odd.
I get that the Silmarillion is being written from a certain perspective, and itâs likely that its (fictional) author thought that Hobbits were too unimportant to mention. Given their ancestorâs tendency to secrecy, they werenât noticed much.
What I donât get is the supposed relationship to men. I know Tolkien makes this connection vaguely, but they have pointy ears like elves. They also have the elvish trait of being particularly quiet and light of foot (though not as much). They are mortal like men, but so are dwarves. Obviously their height is closest to dwarves.
Tolkien seems to go out of his way to give the origin of the characters in his books (with the notable exception of Tom Bombadil). Given their importance to Tolkienâs works I have to think it was intentional he left them out. If he did, I wonder what he was trying to say about their lineage (given that the lineage of other characters is usually indicative of their natures)?
I think the hobbits were always meant to represent that part of the world that even the greatest and wisest cannot account for. They are small folk, humble and unseen by the larger world, but when called upon they may rise to be the same heights of nobility and courage as the greatest heroes of legend.
In leaving them a mystery, they stand in for all of the little people of history who go about their mundane business without bothering another soul, but who when circumstances collide with them will stand tall and do what must be done. By and large, the history books do not record their names, but they are no less important to the story.
This is the real pre-WWII allegory imo.
This was fucking beautiful.
Wow! Great response, and probably my favorite reddit comment ever.
Sure but its kind of odd when every other intelligent lifeform is well documented by what diety created them. Elves were created by eru (god), dwarves created by Aule, humans were made by Eru as well, but after the dwarves and elves awoke. Orcs, dragons, balrogs, etc created by Melkor. Hobbits however are just not mentioned. I think they are the only intelligent lifeform that cannot be traced back to the God that created them. I guess its implied that they decended from men but the 4000 years that men were around before the events of rings of power doesn't really seem like enough time for that much genealogical drift. Even the 7000 years of men existing before the events of the war of the ring doesn't seem like enough time.
Hobbits are a branch of men so they would be created by Eru too.
Or...hear me out...a dwarf fucked an elf. Pointy ears. Short stature. Hairy feet. Bam.
I thought they were meant to be English people
Hobbiton was meant to be the West Midlands
Well they seem to have Irish accents. All the Elves have posh British accents and the Dwarves are Scottish. It's seems kinda weird when you think about it.
I've always wondered if the Irish ever felt insulted by being little people in lotr
After the end of LOTR middle earth âbecameâ Europe. The Shire was supposed to be in England. Did they have accents in the book? I dunno if it was ever mentioned
No because they technically arenât speaking English in the books. The names of all the characters were âtranslatedâ by Tolkien from their native languages to English.
Frodo's name in-universe is Maura Labingi. Frodo and Baggins are both "translated" from Westron to English.
Tolkien was, first and foremost, a linguistics nerd.
The silmarillion (in universe) is a collection of myths and stories that bilbo and Sam (I think) recorded. The stories were told to them by elves in Rivendell, so the perspective can be seen as elvish. The elves were largely unaware of the hobbits so they wouldnât have any information on them to write down anyway. The hobbits themselves are also pretty unaware of their own history up to a certain point. Before they settled in the shire, they were a migratory people and didnât have a written language or means of recording their history.
As for their relation to the big folk, hobbits are definitely a subset of man. Dwarves have their own origin that is completely separate from elves and men. But the hobbitsâ lifespan and mortality definitely makes them a type of man. We also see the druedain or the pukel-men in ROTK. They are very different from the other humans in the story but are known to be another branch of men.
Definitely realize the elvish origin of the Silmarillion. You can see it in the way they sometimes use pejorative names (like calling men âThe Sicklyâ or dwarves âStunted Peopleâ).
Also, the origin of the dwarves, elves, orcs, etc. are all clearly laid out. But given the absence of an origin for Hobbits, youâre inclined to notice they have some commonalities with other species. Like dwarves, hobbit lifespans are mortal but longer than common men, and they are closer to dwarves in height. Hobbits also have a few elvish traits like walking quietly, recovering from injuries well, and better eyesight and hearing (not to mention pointy ears). Of course, Hobbits have some unique traits of their own (leathery and hairy feet).
If Hobbits come from men, how did they get these traits that are quite distinct from men? It seems to me thereâs more than lost genealogy, thereâs a missing explanation for how they got these traits.
Itâs intentionally mysterious but I feel like youâre dancing around that the only confirmed information of their origin is that theyâre definitely related to men lol
Youâre definitely right, Iâve now seen some references in the comments that makes it clear Tolkien was unambiguous on their connection to men (I hadnât seen all of his writing on the subject).
Still though, itâs clear that something must have happened to the Hobbits that is more than just living apart for a bit. The same with the skin-changers. Even if they are ârelatedâ to men something is missing on why they are so different.
[Also, even Tolkien seems a bit disingenuous on their origin. He said at one point: âThey are entirely without non-human powers.â But, they are more resilient to damage, live longer, can see and hear much further, and can walk preternaturally quietly when compared to men. Those all sound pretty like ânon-human powersâ to me.]
Their life span shares more similarities with humans than dwarves. Hobbits live on average about 100 years. The particularly noble and powerful human races of old lived significantly longer, but generally speaking, this can be seen as "on par" with current men. There's a lot of variation, considering those with strong Numenorean ties can live for more than a hundred years and those of more "muddle" or less "noble" origins might only live to 60-70 years old. But humans hit "around" the 100-year mark. Dwarves tend to live over 300 years. So again, this is more similarity to men than any other race.
Thing is, the only beings created by Eru are elves and men. Dwarves by one of the Valar which was a nono. By that logic, Hobbits have to come from men.
I get where youâre coming from, but you also have the Ents created at the behest of Yavanna. Whatâs more, there are other creatures that do not have an obvious origin, like Beorn and the skin-changers.
Yes that's true. So the answer is it's either from men, or it's one of Tolkien's intentional mystery things like Bombadil.
Once upon a time, Tolkien wrote: "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit."
Having invented the word "hobbit" on a whim, Tolkien asked himself, "WTF is a hobbit?" And all the stories we know came from that moment.
Maybe he wanted to preserve that sense of WTF for his readers, since it's what inspired him in the first place.
I always wondered about this too, and I thought that one of the Valar must have been involved in their creation, like Aulë for the dwarves and Yavanna for the Ents (and possibly Manwë for the eagles). After thinking about it for years, I considered Nienna, who famously cleansed the corruption from the Two Trees with her tears, and I came up with this headcanon:
When Merry and Pippin first meet Treebeard, he calls them "little orcs." What if hobbits really were little orcs or goblins, corrupted and bred from a mixture of captured peoples (including men), who were cast out by the other orcs, and who hated their own wretchedness enough to accept Nienna's mercy and be cleansed? This could also help explain their unusual resistance to corruption and the special attention they get from Gandalf, who was a student of Nienna.
I'm sure this is not what Tolkien intended, but I think it fits the lore surprisingly well.
Treebeard tells the hobbits that their voices remind him of the long forgotten entwifes..
I get that the Silmarillion is being written from a certain perspective, and itâs likely that its (fictional) author thought that Hobbits were too unimportant to mention.
LOL it was written by Bilbo. Not being a jerk, I promise. This isn't obvious. So you not knowing makes perfect sense. Still made me laugh.
But TS is written from myths and legends told to Bilbo by Elves. So it focuses on Elves. It's from their perspective. Meanwhile, The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings were written about Hobbits.
It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves. Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did. But what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered. The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that are now lost and forgotten. Only the Elves still preserve any records of that vanished time, and their traditions are concerned almost entirely with their own history, in which Men appear seldom and Hobbits are not mentioned at all. [*LotR; Prologue]
Tolkien makes no mention of elves having pointy ears, nor hobbits.
He did in one of his letters.
"I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown)."
I stand corrected. He did describe Bilbo as having pointy ears. But is that a description of all Hobbits? Or just Bilbo? I have friends who have pointy ears, but that is not a characteristic of most humans.
Notable that he put quotes around "elvish" because he didn't envision his elves as having pointy ears.
Yeah it's supposed to be a description of hobbits in general. It's from letter 27 in the "Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien" compilation. His publishers asked him for some drawings of hobbits and he very politely said that they need someone who can draw, and just described them.
Fun fact. J. R. R. Tolkien was a devout Roman Catholic from boyhood, and he described The Lord of the Rings in particular as âunconsciouslyâ a "fundamentally religious and Catholic work". While he insisted it was not an allegory, it contains numerous themes from Christian theology.
but they have pointy ears like elves.
Actually, I think that's a misunderstanding.
Tolkien described elves as having fair ears and hobbits having pointy ears. Unfortunately, he did once write so in the same sentence, making it possible to think that elves had fair and pointy ears.
Not sure where the pointy ears came from. Probably Vulcan. AFAIK Tolkien does not mention pointy ears for Elves, let alone Hobbits.
That totally makes sense from a physical perspective and I can absolutely see why the Hobbit-Elf connection would be made. However when you are looking at it from Tolkien's perspective you have to look at it from a more theological perspective. Or perhaps a "spiritual" perspective. Elves are immortal. Not just long-lived like people thing. IMMORTAL. They live as long as Arda (the world) exits, inexorably tied to it. When an Eldar's body (their Hroa) dies, their spirit (fea) goes to the Halls of Mandos where it basically does "penance" and recovers from any evil it did or trauma that was inflicted upon it. After which they are given a new hroa and live forever in Aman with the Valar. Humans don't do this. When they die their spirit goes to a place known only to Eru Iluvatar himself. Not even Manwe knows where the souls of men go when they die. Same is true of Hobbits. That effectively rules out a "Hobbit-Elf" connection and solidifies a "Hobbit-Human" connection.
âIt is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves.â
This link provides the citation for the quote and two other references to Hobbit lineage.
I actually read the quote just a couple of days ago, but the other two examples in that link make it clear that theyâre a species of human.
Ah fair enough, if there's some relation, then it would eventually come back to there yeah.
Also, I'm guessing the self-loop is reincarnation/resurrection/returning from the undying lands?
Thatâs what it looks like. For elves, after they die they are eventually able to be rehoused in a new body identical to their old one in the undying lands. Miriel and finrod both have the symbol, although Miriel is kind of an exception to this. Gandalf (aka Olorin) is not an elf, so when he died his spirit went beyond Arda to where Eru, or the one God, actually sent him back to Middle Earth. We can consider this more of a resurrection even though I think he got a new body as Gandalf the White. Then we have beren and luthien who are the biggest exception of all. Beren died and Luthienâs spirit followed him to the halls of Mandos, where she was able to convince the valar to resurrect them both as mortal men.
Another example would be Glorfindel, the elf who died fighting a balrog, got rehoused in valinor, then chose to return to Middle Earth in a later age.
yup!
I always thought they pre-dated men, and were kind of like fae, just beings of the earth. I don't think they'd be able to stay as secret and hidden if they were descendant from men. But I don't know if there's anything to support this, it's just what I've always believed.
they werent secret at all! Just forgotten. One of the kings of Arthedain actually granted the hobbits the lands now known as the shire, they are just a reclusive folk.
Oh interesting, thanks. Which book has the most info about hobbit origins?
I think it's also said somewhere in the forewords for some versions of LOTR. In "concerning Hobbits" but maybe I'm misremembering. I'm certain there's a short mention in the Silmarillion
I believe tolkein said hobbits were âof menâ but never really went into much detail other than that.
Oddly the old animated Return of the King movie goes the other way and has a line about the younger hobbits all getting taller.
Wow, so many men between Isildur and the Aragorn. Humans are so mortal comparing to dwarves I guess (Durin IV to Gimli).
Also I thought Hobbits were descendants of Harfoots but it was actually otherwise, interesting.
Harfoots are a type of Hobbit
No you are correct. The harfoots, stoors, and fallohides were the three predecessor groups before hobbits. Once some of them settled in the shire area, they became known as hobbits.
Does anyone know how to get Stephen Colbert to look at this? Lol Ive tried, but to no avail :(
This tree started as a little project of mine back in 2012 and has since grown to be what I believe is the the most comprehensive and most importantly, visually clear family tree of the Tolkien legendarium you'll find anywhere.
Please also download my Companion Guide (Mirror), it has all the characters on the Tree (and some not on the tree) with pictures, birthdates, ruling dates, how many years alive/ ruled, and short character profiles that will help you navigate this tree and Tolkien's legendarium as a whole. This whole project started back in 2012 and I'm still trying to find ways to improve it, hope you enjoy!
Visualization done with excel Source: all of Tolkiens books and some referencing of Tolkien Gateway
EDIT: It seems Dropbox has revoked access to the link for the companion guide because of high traffic, I will try to figure out the issue when I get home soon, if you don't have access please just message me and I will respond. Thanks! Also if anyone has any ideas where I can host the PDF (its about 170 MB), would be appreciated.
That's Excel? How??
Given enough time, human beings will attempt to put any and all data into Excel.
There's videos on YouTube of Doom running in Excel so you're probably not wrong.
Haha canât wait to open a workbook where every cell is black and then have it slowly fade into the Skyrim opening.
I have excel copies of a few games including sonic
âSuch is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.â
love that line
It's a list of names, calm down.
Where is this from?
Human have only ever achieved 1% of excel's true capabilities
That's Excellent!
[deleted]
Thatâs stopitellent!
Get out đ
plot, add colors and font, remove borders from empty cells add fancy borders around text. i'm just guessing i don't use Excel much
The boxes are not aligned
someone else mentioned floating text boxes
The biggest nerd. now bow
I can't believe I went through the entire Companion Guide. Very well done!
wow that's awesome! any feedback/ suggestions?
I don't have any suggestions. It was a blast to go through and I was surprised how many names I still recognised. I read the Silmarillion and others like Children of HĂșrin ages ago, your guide made all those stories come alive again.
Seriously, amazing work.
that's awesome to hear!
Well I also went quickly through the companion guide which is awsome. I just didnât find Beorn and Tom Bombadil which are two of my favourite characters. Many thanks for mentioning the females ents, too !
yup on the version on my computer I have just added Tom, will do Beorn now, thanks!
You already did an amazing work thank you
Shouldn't Azaghal have the dragon-helm icon next to his name?
youre right! i will add
Nice piece of scholarship youâve done here.
It always struck me as a curious gap that we donât know who any of the NazgĂ»l are. We have names for two of them, and one is âan easterlingâ but theyâre supposed to have been prominent men. Youâd think there would be a trail. The potential for storytelling is huge, too. Iâm disappointed that he never fleshed it out for a single one of them.
thanks! my thoughts exactly, for a character who is so important (witch king), I would have hoped for a slightly less ambiguous origin, I mean how many "kings of men" even existed that we knew of back then? really only 1, certainly not 9 lol
i lowkey hope that they and their origins are elaborated in ROP Season 2. They were always among the dopest and coolest of Bad guys in LOTR. I know ROP is just a loose adaption, but would fit timewise.
You should post it on r/Fantasy I'm sure the people would love it.
will do, thanks!
After reading Tolkien's biography (Humphrey Carpenter) I feel comfortable saying he would absolutely love this.
I found this on Google without your name but someone's signature on it? EDIT: I have no idea what to do with my hands.
[deleted]
If this is true I will alter my comments and apologize for such terrible statements. You been working on this for 7 years PotterGandalf? EDIT: PotterGandalf is a hero and I'm a dirty stinky orc. Sorry, good hero, save us from the evil of Melkor.
Fool of a took!
7 years? ma dude itâs been a decade..
Edited and thanks for steering me back to the light.
Your name is top left here, I Googled this same image a week ago for the finale of Rings of Power. That's a pretty signature is in the bottom left of this link... Someone is good at cursive. EDIT:looking at Potters profile, they could challenge Stephen Colbert. https://external-preview.redd.it/Q1YyCnBURwuCNpouIb6oQqdssi9xNcNG6Wz5r8TNpuQ.jpg?auto=webp&s=bfe34ada1ba6b8fd3fdd3a564140b1580f152a5c
OP has posted multiple previous versions of this - including a companion guide. they previously posted as /u/Galdalf117 back through versions 4 and 5.
As previously stated, PotterGandalf is a hero, and I'm a stinky orc. Sorry's have been stated, and I've learned of the legend of Tom Bombadil...I mean PotterGandalf117. Thank you though.
That's my signature lmao
Nice, that way you can get an accurate grasp on rings of power.
Until you notice that Spoilers Ep3?>!somehow Elros is still alive concurrently with Elendil and Isildur, when on the appendix tree they are removed by like 30 generations.!<
Elros isnt alive in the show
Right? Elendil was what, born 3119 of the second age and Elros died in 442 SA? Not my numbers, but big gap there haha. Also spoilers people! Gotta love Hollywood, think it's for drama with the fam?
This is really incredible, and I also gotta say your username (all three parts) is incredible too :)
Haha thanks :) they are my 3 favorite fandoms
What does 117 refer to?
master chief (halo)
Medicopter 117
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAl3irOh3Sw
What the fuck â 2017 was five years ago??
Ugh
I don't know, but perhaps John-117 aka Master Chief from Halo.
yes
Master Chief's (Halo protagonist) callsign (117) I'm guessing?
yes
Please add paladin, father of peregrine took
there are many hobbits to add, most of which are not useful in any way so I'm going to make a separate tree for them
At least add Rosie Cotton!
Did you also use characters from some of the books that JRR wasn't able to finish and then Christopher Tolkien finished? Or are these characters only from works that are 100% JRR?
including characters that Christopher Tolkien published
That's great! How many books would you say you had to read to be able to complete this?
Fantastic work. Be sure to e-mail a link to Stephen Colbert - he'll love it and might invite you to the show for a chat (at least offstage).
lol Ive tried to get in contact with him but to no avail, no idea how to reach him?
Sorry, no clue. Have you tried tweeting your post at him?
https://twitter.com/StephenAtHome
Otherwise maybe try to figure out who some of his writers are and tweet or send e-mail to them. Finding people with less flooded inboxes might help.
Great guide! I just wasted too much time reading through it. Your Sauron section has a double âtheâ in it btw.
in the companion guide? thanks! theres probably a bunch of typos I havent gone and proofread since making the last set of big changes.
companion guide appears to be kaput on dropbox ):
But this whole thing is incredible, I hope you feel a sense of accomplishment - it has brought me and I'm sure many other great joy to scroll through...
...Though my bosses will not be ecstatic to hear that my last hour has been spent reliving some of the history of Arda. Oops.
I will try to generate a working link, for now the Google Drive link is working. thanks!
I appreciate that you, too, mix your fictional worlds.
all of them are awesome in different ways!
Absolutely amazing, have been looking for something just like this, with this level of detail and organization - thank you!
Post on /r/lotr or at least /r/lotrmemes?
I'm sure Colbert recited this chart from memory.
I love that Tom Bombadil is just off on his own. No origins, and seemingly unlimited powers with zero fucks to give. My favorite character and he gets zero love in popular media, probably because nobody knows how to describe him and he has no motives
I absolutely love this, and I do have a few suggestions. I showed this to my sister and she was instantly disappointed that all of Samwiseâs children were not listed. As for me, the legend has a [male female] portion but it doesnât actually indicate anything. Am I reading it wrong or was it incomplete? Also I think it would be amazingly helpful if the legend described what all the colors for each name meant. Some colors are mixed, some change from parent to child and I have no idea what any of it means. But besides that this thing is beautiful. Iâve been looking over it for like 20 minutes now.
As much as I would love to add all of Sam's children, 13 names wide would not fit on this tree while still keeping it readable nor would it provide any useful information lol so I'm working on a separate hobbit tree
the [male female] indicates sex by italics, females are italicized in the legend and in the tree
hmm the legend did look super ugly when I had one with all the colors as having each kind of box with colors all in close proximity looked like a mess, but too many people have asked for one to ignore so i'll have to come up with something, thanks!
Hi - I can't seem to find Eru IlĂșvatar in the companion guide, but they're on the Tree đ„Č
I love how Tom Bombadil is just out there. Because he was. Iâm pretty sure the Hobbits were harried to the point of madness and hallucinated the whole thing. Heh
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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!
Ring a dong! hop along! Fal lal the willow!
Tom Bom, jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
Hey! Come merry dol! derry dol! My darling!
/r/GloriousTomBombadil
Glad someone else has a soft spot for T.Bomb. Read the book 30 years ago, and this is one of the few passages I remember being both memorable and pointless. I know that he got cut from Peter Jackson trilogy which is when we all revisited LOTR, but itâs still a mystery as to why Tolkien, ignored him in his extensive work post LOTR books.
I wouldnât say he ignored Tom. He purposely made him a mysterious character with no clear origin. Tolkien wrote as if his writing was actual accounts of historical events. With real history, there are some answers we will never have. For Tolkien, Tom is one of those cases.
Do the Hobbits ever ask Gandalf about Tom? Is there ever a moment where Gandalf is like, "Oh, that guy"?
I donât believe so. But at the council of Elrond the idea is thrown around of having Tom take care of the ring. Gandalf says itâs a bad idea because Tom will probably lose interest and lose the ring. Then Glorfindel says that in the end, after all else is lost, Tom will ultimately fall to the might of Sauron. So giving him the ring would only ever be a delay of the inevitable.
So no, they never ask Gandalf directly about Tom (that I can remember, could be wrong) but they do learn more about him at the council.
Gandalf mentions towards the end of the books that he's going to hang out at Tom's place for a while when everyone's walking home from Aragorn's coronation.
Ok, so at least he's a known entity within the world. I was getting an impression that he was a complete mystery that was never brought up again. Thanks for the info.
I re-read hi s chapter last night, no reason to, just needed merry old Tom in my life.
That would have been Tom Bombastick then
Mr Bombastick
Put some respect on that name!
You wanna buy some bombasticks?
Whatâs this?
Wow 38 generations between aragorn and isildur
And 34 between Aragorn and ArwenâŠ. Serious cougar action.
Yeah, itâs kinda wild when itâs presented like this. Those arenât short generations either given that Numenorians are long lived.
I do think itâs one of the weaknesses of Tolkien that he has a bunch of incredibly ancient characters, but never really gets into the implications of what that would mean for those characters and the world they live in. Like from the movies and books, you sorta get the sense that Elrond has basically been hanging out in Rivendell, maybe with some minor interruptions, for ten thousand years. Which is insane.
Itâs easier said than done. The DND 5e playerâs handbook mentions that in settings where some races live for hundreds of years, players might consider the roleplay implications of that. Yeah, let me unshackle myself from the constraints of my puny real-world human perspective real quick. Does anyone have any psilocybin?
I know, right? Though I think Tolkien is also a more extreme example, as elves in D&D are more likely to be hundreds, rather than thousands, of years old. Still mind boggling, but somewhat more conceivable. Then of course thereâs characters like Gandalf who are literally older than creation itself.
I agree. I've also noticed that lots of mythology is like this. Random gods just hanging out for eternity, making sure the sun does sun stuff, maybe having a war here or there, having children with other random beings in the world, etc etc. I don't know that I'd call it a weakness, but more of a thing that we just have trouble conceptualizing as non-fantastical humans. Like it sort of becomes "you know, they are just like us, but for almost forever, plus some extra magicy/fantasy/aspected bits to keep things interesting."
Yeah, I donât know. With like Greek mythology, you get the sense that the gods are operating on a very different scale than even the Demi-god heroes. Youâll see their influence, but itâs fairly rare for one to physically pop down and appear in a story. Theyâre more akin to forces of nature then they are to people. This is unlike Tolkiens elves, who are very much physically present in the world, and are frequently directly involved in events. Itâs not really a slight at Tolkien in particular, lots of fantasy worlds seem to include incredibly ancient characters without really considering the implications. Itâs just pretty notable in LOTR because his elves are just so old compared with those in other settings.
Only ca. 4,800 years. Rivendell was founded in SA 1697, with LotR taking place in TA 3018/19.
I don't think it is a weakness of his. it's presented in the fact that Elrond and the other ancient elves don't get involved much, they are basically sick of existing. Like it's one of the main points in his whole mythology, mortals were given the gift of death, elven immortality is basically a curse.
Not to mention one of the main features of the ring is they make existence feel more timeless.
It's kinda the point of elves that they're unchanging. Hence the move to the west at the end of the third age because the world is changing away from them so they flee to the only unchanging place
Any only 1 generation for Elrond!
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Haha i never thought about it like that. Though for some reason his blood is not much stronger than Aragorns despite being the daughter of Arwen. I like characters like Earendil from the first age for the same reason
Elrond ia basically the greatest eugenic experiment ErĂŒ ever performed... he possesses all the elves and human bloodlines and he is also a quarter maiar
He's actually 1/16 Maia, 9/16 Elvish, 3/8 Human.
And they call him half-elven.
If I'm not mistaken, there are only two true half-elves in the whole story: LĂșthien (half elf, half maia) and Elrond's father EĂ€rendil (half elf, half human).
Well 3/8 human is pretty close to half human at least, and most of that 5/8 is elf so it fits.
I guess Elrond Five-Eights-Elven doesn't have that ring to it.
Not til he gets Vilya, anyway.
and Elros :)
It's always been funny to me that Elrond is Aragorn's great*1000-uncle.
Arwen says as much to Aragorn: "then we are akin from afar!"
This is dwarf erasure! Know you've made an enemy for life.
Just "for life"? Dwarven memory runs deeper.
Wait maybe I'm misinterpreting something but I thought it was only about ~7000 years since the sun became a thing and men awoke to the end of the third age, and only about 4500 years before that that elves awoke (the last 1/3rd of the years of the trees before the sun was around and could be used for time keeping)
The years prior to the creation of the sun were far longer. Depending on which of Tolkien's versions you use it's either 10 years to a year or 144 years to a year.
I see, I always thought it was 10 years to a year for the 500 or so valinor years that the elves were awake. 144 would be a different story
Nature of Middle Earth which released this year contains his latest attempts at the timeline and in this latest version he uses the 144 year metric.
He was kind of obsessed with the maths of Elvish reproduction working out while they were migrating from Cuivinen to Valinor, and the 10 year metric didn't satisfy him.
Looks good. I recognize a lot more than I expected to. Did you gather this information through the Silmarillion? What is your favorite story within the world?
The Silmarillion was a part of the information needed to make the tree, combined with the LOTR books, they contain about 90% of the names on the tree, with his other writings accounting for the most obscure names.
My favorite story would probably be the Children of HĂșrin, I've read it so many times and I love the world of the first age far more than that of the third age! But I also really enjoy the character stories of Tuor and Earendil the Mariner
Iâm just reading through Unfinished Tales for the first time, itâs cool to see the names Iâve recently learned laid out like this. Thank you for doing this!
welcome! be sure to use it for a reread
Same here, I adore Children of HĂșrin!
Iâve only read the abridged events of Tuor in the Silmarillion. Excited to read his full story. What is in the Silm is fuckinâ wild!
dude, the silm is the definition of fuckin wild
That it is. My first read was earlier this year. Enjoyed it so much. And much easier to read then most people would have you believe. Itâs not that daunting.
i'd agree its not that daunting for someone who already is well versed in at least the LOTR book and some of the lore, but for newcomers there are far too many names to keep track of I think
Its mostly the first chapter (with the creation song of arda) and the subsequent massive namedrops that people give up on, and never go further. When later its just a collection of tales, epics and songs.
For me it is the AkallabĂȘth. It's haunting. I wonder if NĂșmenoreans after the events told the tale to their children as a cautionary tale, so they'd behave and fall asleep.
This is just the first page of the Silmarillion actually.
Iâve had this image saved in my phone for weeks and have used it repeatedly during Rings of Power to figure out whoâs who. Nice work!
I love hearing stuff like this
Great idea. Haven't started the show yet, but saving this for when I finally do.
Up in the top corner I recognize Tolkien, Potter, and Gandalf, so that's at least three
no love for Master Chief 117 ?
Don't know how I missed this comment but itt made me chuckle
The hobbits' trees could get a lot more complex, but this is solid for representing the long lines between groups in Middle Earth.
the hobbit tree is certainly very complex and im working on it, but it is far too wide and not tall enough (not enough generations) to fit here.
I feel like you need a 3D hologram to fully picture this stuff.
I can't believe this was all in one dude's brain when he was making bedtime stories for his kid.
The only way to do this without crossing lines is to have a 3d version but I think that would be even more confusing!
If Tolkien isn't proof that humans are a severe case of "beast with the desires of a god" then I don't think anything is.
far too wide and not tall enough
Just like hobbits!
There are two "last king of Khazad-dĂșm"?
hmm...
well the first last king is when they were routed from khazad dum because of the balrog, but it was later recolonized after the events of the Lord of the Rings. perhaps I should make that clearer...
How in the world did Tolkien keep all these characters straight?
he didnt, there are various inconsistencies in his writing, which I have marked with a "?"
But it is remarkable how much he did keep consistent given the number of characters he had and having done most of his thinking on paper (no computers back then)!
How in the ~~world~~ Middle Earth did Tolkien keep all these characters straight?
WOW. I could get lost in this for hours.
Why are Thranduil and Legolas shown twice? Once to the left of Arwenâs line on their own, and then again near the top with the other elves.
This happens to multiple characters in this chart, and I guess it's to give extra room to continue the line down, especially since OP seems to be trying to keep names somewhat vertically aligned according to when they lived. That way Legolas can be positioned closer to the bottom near the rest of the Fellowship.
Even the Trees have a line? how?
And why is the white tree of gondor moving places? Is it an ent?
no, each subsequent tree is from the sapling of the prior tree, planted in different places!
Given that Galathilion was inspired by Telperion, would that count as "Tutorship"? I feel like there should be a stronger indication that that line is continuing the legacy of Telperion.
thats an interesting point but I dont think that particular line would work, perhaps just a little description? ill figure it out
The white tree of Gondor is grown from a piece of the original white tree that drowned in NĂșmenor when the world was changed by Eru
In addition to the other replies: in the film the White Tree just magically sprouts new flowers.
In the books, the dead tree stays dead, and there's a scene where Gandalf and Aragorn have to go looking along the paths where the White Tree was previously carried/rescued coming into the city. Aragorn finds a scion, they dig up the dead Tree with reverence, and the living one is planted in its place (mirroring the line of the Kings replacing that of the Stewards, the second born humans replacing the Firstborn Elves, etc).
Clippings or seeds from each tree were taken and planted in the new cities after the old cities were sacked destroyed.
Good answers, thank you guys.
Jesus Christ, how much time did you spend on this?
hundreds of hours easily, but over a decade spread here and there
A curse upon you for the ages of time I will lose upon seeing these ancient lineages!
Time? what time do you think we have...
Time? What time do you think we have...
Surely you don't say the hour is later than I think?
Samwise has a kid named Goldilocks?
All the hero hobbits [edit: not Frodo] have kids, the kids have very traditional hobbit names (the girls are adorable, the boys sound like goofy locker room nicknames), and the kids all tend to intermarry across families.
I see Pippin named his kid Faramir. That's sweet.
In hobbit culture, they give their daughters flower names. At the end of return of the king, Sam and Frodo discuss the name of his first child. Sam says he was hoping for a boy so he could name him after Frodo. Frodo suggests Sam think of a flower name and he decides on Elanor, the flowers that grew in lothlorien. Goldilocks was one of his other daughters.
On another note, Frodo doesnât marry or have any children.
All the hero hobbits have kids
I don't remember Frodo having children, when did he have them?
He didn't, he sailed west with Bilbo.
That is what I also recall, in the year or two following the crowning of Aragorn.
One of the great eagles was just called great eagle lol?
ya he is in the hobbit, and no one is sure if that is his actual name or if he is the same as Gwaihir, but Tolkien hadnt come up with his name yet. the only solution is to assume they are different birds
Actually pretty amusing if Tolkien did intend for his name to be that. But I feel like Tolkien wouldn't do that intentionally. But amazing chart regardless.
Pretty much every king of Rohan's name is supposedly an Old English synonym for "king", so there's that.
Frodo is also descended from Gerontius "The Old" Took. Primula Brandybuck's mother is his daughter.
Canonically, Tom Bombadil fuuuuuuuucks
I had no idea Elrond was descended from the little red muppet on Sesame Street.
Interesting, seems too linear. real ones (especially royal) often include many interceding lines, which would basically mean distant relatives that marry, sometimes cousins and even uncle/niece.
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It's possible Aragorn didn't know... but Elrond knew. Maybe that's why he wanted Arwen on that ship so bad.
Aragorn knew. He proclaims he's heir of Isildur many times. It's pretty common knowledge in Rivendell and Gondor that Isildur was a descendent of Elros the uncle of Arwen. Aragorn's knowledge of his lineage goes even further back, as once he sings of the half-Maia Luthien, the great-grandmother of Elros and Elrond, acknowledging her as his ancestor.
Does it count? I mean it has been 6000 years since their families intertwined by the time they marry...
If we go back 6000 years in our world, pretty much all of us are cousins.
How many descendants does Genghis "SuperSperm" Khan have? It seems like I remember someone saying something like 1% of the planet's population?
For all intents and purposes, no it doesn't. But it's different to 6000 years by our reckoning. Far fewer generations due to the lifespan of the Line of Elros; and only one generation on the Line of Elrond.
I counted about 60 generations between them, and assuming that each child only shares half the genetic makeup of their parents, that's (1/2)^60 , which seems like as safe of an incestual relationship as you'll ever find (lord forgive me for ever saying that)
Honestly I don't even want to Google "how genetically different for reproduction" because I don't want to live with that shame on my permanent record
with modern medicine even a 1st cousin is safe even if it isn't socially approved by all.
https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/03/health/no-genetic-reason-to-discourage-cousin-marriage-study-finds.html
medical geneticists had known for a long time that there was little or no harm in cousins' marrying and having children.
"Somehow, this hasn't become general knowledge," Dr. Motulsky said. "Among the public and physicians there's a feeling it's real bad and brings a lot of disease, and there's a lot of social and legal disapproval."
Thirty states have laws forbidding first cousins to marry, but no countries in Europe have such prohibitions, and in parts of the Middle East, Africa and Asia, marriages between cousins are considered preferable.
Thanks for falling on that sword for me, king
Now, is that first cousin once removed or twice?
Are they still considered removed if they're reinserted (Giggity)?
I hate that I know this, and I only know this to make other people shut up about weird anime justifications, but it's really only cousins and siblings, or one or two degrees of separation, that have a significantly increased chance of birth defects. Now, European royalty had more of a problem because they married their cousins for hundreds of years so they were a much smaller gene pool in general.
Now is it gross beyond cousins? For sure. There are more considerations besides just genetic problems.
Most people alive today probably have parents more closely related than than, given that it's said most people only have to go back seven generations to find a common ancestor.
as safe of an incestual relationship as you'll ever find
Targaryens start sweating nervously
It looks like he's marrying his first cousin, 61 times removed.
That, frankly, isn't related at all tbh.
Yeah, I just found the degrees of removal funny more than anything else.
From the standpoint of inbreeding, even a second cousin isnât really a concern.
Once, yeah. Several times though, and you get European royalty.
That would be like Professor Farnsworth marrying Fry's daughter! Except Farnsworth is only like 30 times removed or so.
So does Elrond, and heâs quite a bit closer. His grandmother Nimloth and his wife Celebrian are first cousins.
And just a bit further up that family tree, Galadriel and Celeborn are second cousins.
Sure, but there are literally sixty-odd generations from Aragorn to her uncle Elros.
Galadriel's first cousin (Turgon) is Elrond's great-grandfather. Elrond is married to her daughter CelebrĂan.
Galadriel and her husband Celeborn are both blood relatives of King Thingol (who is also Elrond's great-great-grandfather).
Aragorn, who marries Elrond's daughter Arwen, is a descendant of Elrond's brother Elros.
TĂșrin Turambar accidentally marries his own sister, but she dies before giving birth to their child.
There's plenty of tangles in that family tree.
Recognize all of them, really can put a rough story on around half great Job ;)
(Have been into tolkien for most of my teenage and all of my adult live, and reread much of it every few years\^\^)
I also recognize all of them or like 99% of them, I'm not sure if I feel proud or worried
Only part Iâm not super familiar with is much of the line between Aragorn and Isildur
Wow .... Just wow! I'm saving this for when I finally read the Silmarillion!
Have some good maps as well. Fonstadâs âAtlas of Middle Earthâ is fantastic.
A legend for the colors would be great!
This is the "Chad in Texas" from the Prancing Pony Podcast, Tolkien Professor (SignumU), Sacred Fellowship, Texas Tolkien communities.
One of my friends, Starsha Kolodziej, sent me this link.
I haven't gone over it with a fine tooth comb, but I see ZERO errors with just a 5 minute glance (which is extremely rare.)
I must say... This is the most beautiful representation I've ever seen & I'm going to post the link to our Facebook Groups.
Hello, that's so awesome to hear! but its not all me, I've been posting version to reddit for the last 5+ years and tons of people have commented suggestions for improvement at r/lotr and r/tolkienfans, couldn't have done it without the community :)
Give credit where due, but you should join us at the PPP!
Again, I have all of it memorized but I'm headed to Marquette University now for PPP Moot 22.
When I return, I'll see if I see any errors & you'll have it complete for good!
It really is the best looking I've ever seen & I've been doing this for a LONG time.
https://imgur.com/yZujODz.jpg Find me at the anal car.
omg please XD
Luckily I shortened the name before I chose it as my online username, dodged a bullet there.
Where are the kids of eowyn and eomer mentioned? I'm guessing it's one of the histories of middle earth?
Their first son (Elfwine the Fair) is named in the appendices of LOTR, very briefly in the section titled "The House of Eorl".
If my memory holds up, I believe more of their line is filled out in the Unfinished Tales.
I don't actually remember, it may be there but I think its in the appendices of LOTR
The Maiar arenât descended from the Valar. Theyâre all of equal parentage, created by Eru.
no youre right, they are not, the line refers to tutelage not creation!
Oh. Too many kinds of lines!
Beautiful, well-formatted, interesting data?
ON THIS SUB!?!?
Seriously though, well done OP! This is fantastic, I'd love to print a high res version as a poster
feel free to print one, and thanks!
As a chemist, I recognize Argon and Boron.
I laughed far too hard at this....
I know half of them half as well as I should like; and I recognize less than half of them half as well as they deserve.
/r/LateShow
Stephen Colbert should proofread.
ive tried to get it to him somehow but never could :(
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He's just a notoriously gigantic Tolkien nerd and fan girls out when LOTR actors are on his show.
https://youtu.be/HTGT5AQnjUE
This is one time SC got schooled on Tolkien, and not the other way around.
Wow this would have been helpful when I finally read (listened to) The Silmarillion last month.
Amazing work!
no reason you cant go back and reread!
Hahaha, Iâm glad I read it but I donât think Iâll ever read it again. đ
I recognize Iluvatar... And that's about as far as I got into the Silmarillion.
The first sentence?
Looking from afar, it looks like it could be a map for a new pokemon game
Now if you can figure out how to create an SVG version of this image, the text would be searchable!
how do I do that from an excel file that I take screenshots of to make this PNG?
Can you try using the "Save as PDF" option in Excel? PDFs and SVGs are very closely related, in that they're both document formats that support embedded text and graphics.
because of how massive and complicated the tree is in excel, saving as pdf does not work lol
lmao oh well it was worth a shot!
I think the next best bet would be
But that's probably more effort than it's worth :(
So with the Rings of Power coming out, and me being a casual movie-only (plus I read The Hobbit ages ago), I've been meaning to read all the main books and check out the Silmarillion......but now looking at this, I'm scared
its a wonderful world with so many cool tales, don't be scared! using this tree will help tremendously, you'll be in for a fun ride!
none because I cant get this shit to zoom into any semblance of legibility
fucking imgur
lol try again on a computer or with a reddit app like Apollo
i'm on a computer!
then on imgur right click and open image in new tab, should work
I'm just starting the Fellowship of the Ring and this seems daunting to say the least. Any advice for a first time reader (I haven't watched the movies either btw).
Don't worry about the pic or the depths which the lore has. Just read and enjoy the book. You don't need to know anything before starting the Fellowship of the Ring ÊâżÊ
Just enjoy the book for the first time :) But the book does reference tons of lore and names that are not relevant to the actual story, but hint at the rich backstory. If you are interested in that as you read, you can look the characters up on my companion guide for a quick summary of who they are, and find them on my tree. It should help!
You donât need to consult family trees for the trilogy, though they certainly may enrich your experience. One recommendation I would make is to make use of good maps. More so than just the basic map at the back of your book. Fonstadâs âAtlas of Middle Earthâ is fantastic. Also there are plenty of free resources online. Being able to track the charactersâ progress and get an idea of where they are in ME will make you understand it a lot better.
all of them because i play Angband 4.1.3 https://rephial.org/release/4.1.3
How do I view this at a resolution where it is readable on my phone?
as someone whoâs not into tolkien, this is terrifying
I reference this all the time! Didnât you post it a few years ago?? I spent like 3 hours going over it the first time I saw it! Amazing!
I did! But this is my newest version and significantly better than the one you have from a few years back!
This is a wonderful resource, and clearly has been a great deal of work! I may get it printed out in hardcopy at a size I can read -- probably 24" x 36", since 11" x 17" has proven too small.
I think there must be even more information contained in the graphic than your Legend explains, especially regarding colors. Some I can figure out by context, but it would be helpful if you told us what the background colors, bezel colors, and inner text box colors stand for (especially the multiple colors in many of the text boxes). And why does Shelob have a gray star instead of a black one? And what are the fractions and percentages around the first generations of the Eldar?
Who tf is Goldberry and what does/did he do?
Goldberry is Tom Bombadilâs wife, thatâs basically what she does
She's waiting, as I understand it
From my companion guide: Wife of Tom Bombadil, her origins are unknown, though she may have been a spirit of the River Withywindle. The creatures of the Old Forest attended their wedding. When Frodo and the hobbits were saved by Tom Bombadil, they met Goldberry at his home, and they thought her a beautiful and calm being, with a voice like running water.
so not much lol
I like to think of her as a figment of Tomâs imagination. And because heâs Tom, of course Goldberry is real.
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I am not the OP, but there is nothing in the text to support that. Tolkien had created the Tom Bombadil character in stories that he told his children over the years (some of them collected in poem form in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil published in 1965), and he is included in LOTR as a nod to Tolkien's children.
In Goldberry's words, Tom simply "is".
The following chapters in Rivendell spend a good amount of time writing around Bombadil as a solution to any of the world's problems, and he is not mentioned again by name until I believe the penultimate chapter of Return of the King. Tom's power is said to end at the border of the old forest (which contradicts Tom being an avatar of Eru), and he otherwise serves as the introduction of a few themes of the novels.
I think it is a mistake to characterize Tom Bombadil as any more than that, or to try to deduce some sort of secret identity, Tom is a cameo for the Tolkien kids to enjoy, and not a mystery for fans to tease out.
Personally dont believe in that theory, I think that it is more likely that he is one of the valar or maiar, though to be honest, no theory holds up 100% under close inspection! best left to everyones imagination...
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ya though im not sure that the ring wouldnt affect the valar either...no theory really holds up, honestly I just pretend like he doesnt exist cause I cant make sense of him
You can discount the Maiar. The ring affects / would affect them.
I'm not so sure we really know that. The only Maiar that ever have anything to do with one of the Rings are Gandalf (who carries one of the Elven Rings around, though it's unclear if he ever uses it), Saruman (who covets the One Ring for its power), and Sauron. Of those three, two have taken forms that limit their power while they dwell in Middle Earth, and the third gains power from the One Ring because he's the one who put the power in it in the first place.
I think that's incredibly reductive, which is the opposite of Tolkien's intention. Tom is meant to be a mystery. He is perhaps an aspect of Eru, but only in the sense that every other being is also an asoect of Eru.
This is a great effort, wow!
I have no idea what any of this is
Outstanding visualization! You've done an excellent job of making complex data easy to understand.
thank you :)
Lmao at the new series of both this and GoT.
Thereâs so much back story and intricacies of lineage and separate cultures that have such rich backstories⊠And they just throw that all out the window for the sake of having more diverse casts. Which I get, the biggest shows of the decade in terms of production value shouldnât be strictly European looking dudes.. but itâs just a silly way they went about it. They didnât try to write these characters in intelligently such that it meshes with the deeply detailed nuances of all the back story.
And to be clear, Iâm not trying to be the angry anti PC dude here. Itâs just almost a juxtaposition to see this chart as Iâm actively watching the new LotR series.
I pretty much agree, diversity is fine but needed to find better ways to mesh with the lore rather than just for ticking boxes
Wish I had better awards to give you...
just use it and share it, thats an award enough for me lol
Is this a new version? I refer to your guide often. When was this one published
This is the newest one! I'm always improving them but you can check my post history of always find the most recent one. The link for the companion guide though, is always updated.
My biggest takeaway here is that Gandalf needed hella tutoring, that boy dumb af.
ah, but he was the only one of 5 known to succeed in his task!
Fair enough
DEFINITELY saving this for when I finally get round to reading the books. Thanks in advance!
Sooooo...these Elves who end up with Humans hundreds of years younger than them are epic groomers, right? WTF Arwen, he's like 1,000 years too young for you....
lol I think its more like, after a certain age elves reach a level of maturity and maintain it, and when men grow to a certain age they more quickly attain the same level of maturity so its not as weird? idk
I think so. Elves are a constant and hence why they grow weary of middle earth, being a changing world, and need to go to the undying lands, which as you might know, is called undying because the land never changes..
And her first cousin!
61 times removed, according to above.
Sooooo...these Elves who end up with Humans hundreds of years younger than them are epic groomers, right?
Ugh, can we not with the MAGA shit on this of all topics?
MAGA shit? It's a fucking joke dude. Jesus.
I love the movies but now realize I know nothing lol
For what it's worth, the movies are pretty good, and as far as The Lord of the Rings goes, it's a complete novel in its own right and doesn't require any of the extra texts to be fully enjoyed. I love the family tree that the OP made but it looks more intimidating than the actual written works are.
People may say that there's tons of names in The Silmarillion, and there are, but the stories are very comprehendable without having dozens of diagrams and charts laid out.
More than the eejits who put Rings Of Power together would, that's for sure
Where is Tolkien Black here?
I feel like trying to show time vertically in this chart just ruined everything. This could be a lot cleaner better and more concise and clear.
thanks for the advice lmao
Isildur r/poker
Oh I at first thought these were gnulinux distros
Imgur seems to serve up a heavily compressed version to iOS Safari. Anyone know how to view the high quality version on mobile?
should be able to just view on the reddit app (I use Apollo), without having to visit imgur
*me trying to find Gandalf*
Did you manage? I didn't...
hes in the top right
Gray box under 5th left yellow box from the top right corner
What do the colors represent?
different colors represent different affiliations, which affiliation exactly can be found in the little text boxes pertaining to each group
Absolutely amazing, kinda confusing chronology wise though, but I guess that's due to extremely long lifetimes. E.g.how Narya was passed down through characters.
Time to turn this into a huge sequence diagram instead, including all the interactions between characters! /s
I'd say narya was passed "up" since CĂrdan had it first and then he gave it to Gandalf
Can't follow this for shit.
if you are interested in learning about the lore, I can point you to a few good places to start?
If not from J.R.R. Tolkien, I don't accept it. It's someone else's fantasy.
what are you referring to exactly?
J.R.R. Tolkien took 30 years to comeup with a very good story.
Now Amazon is kicking something out that walks all over his story.
This is so fking sad holy shit
Why? He did this for fun as a passion project and it has information that the fandom appreciates having that was not provided by the source material in any sensible manner. Just move on if you think itâs a waste of time, no need to be a jerk about it.
Goldberry is the river woman's daughter
That is one theory. But like Tom, her origins are ultimately unknown.
This isn't a theory. The text straight up describes her as the "River-womanâs daughter"
What's unknown is who is the river woman?
The idea of the River Woman and her being Goldberryâs mother originate from The Adventures of Tom Bomadill which is written as a set of poems from the Buckland region. The people of Buckland certainly didnât know for sure what Goldberryâs origins were. The River Woman (and her being GBâs mother) is hobbit folklore. You canât cite that and say that it is definitely GBâs origin.
It's straight from Fellowship of the Ring. Tom himself sings "There my pretty lady is, River-womanâs daughter"
She's also referred to as the river-daughter four other times in that book
That can be interpreted in many different ways than âthere is Goldberry, the literal daughter of some lady named the river womanâ. âRiver-womanâ could be as abstract as Mother Nature. Wouldnât be out of character for Tom to speak in such a way. If youâre trying to write a hard factual family tree, thereâs no way you can include that.
Goldberry NOT being the river woman's daughter is the theory.
Completely disagree on that. But I donât think weâre gonna reach a consensus here.
Fair enough. Agree to disagree. I appreciate your passion for obscure Tolkien lore
You too bud!
God, I need to reread the silmarillion
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you are very much welcome :)
I can not find the other wizards like Sauroman and the animal one and the two blue ones. Where are they in this chart? I would think they were close to Gandalf but I can not see then
Same height as Gandalf, but further to the left
I recognized the really tiny one
What do the vertical strings represent? Clones?
vertical strings? what do you mean?
Usually family trees have a horizontal line connecting the parents and a vertical line below connecting their children. This one has a bunch of strings of names connected only by vertical lines.
well the family trees provided by Tolkien in his appendices of LOTR are like this. I mean, how else would you draw descendants when the mothers/ wives are not known? what purpose would a blank box be other than taking up space?
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that would be my end goal, but have no idea how to get there ...
Pretty sure the guy you labeled as the last king of Gondor did not turn out to be the last king of Gondor.
you may be thinking of the first king of the reunited kingdom which was not just the king of Gondor
So the king of Gondor and also the king of Armor, etc.?
Yup, plus the lands he then conquered in the south and east
So Aragon and Arwen are first cousins 62 times removed, huh?
There's old episode of Hey Arnold! where characters repeatedly yell "Ay Marie!" and I always thought it was funny that Finrod's wife was "Amarie" and that he'd yell that at her in a brooklyn accent when he was released from the halls of Mandos.
that's a really funny thing to imagine haha
Isnât Gimli the name of the dwarf from the Lord of the Rings? Thatâs all Iâve got.
Not finding one of the ring bearers: Tom Bombadil?
Eh don't know if he qualifies as a ring bearer
I might also point out that Deagol is listed as a ring bearer -- his time with the ring was very short lived indeed.
that's a good point, I suppose I'll have go one way or the other. Not sure which yet. Thanks!
Well Tom literally placed the ring on his finger -- which had no effect on him. He then gave it back to Bilbo. Notwithstanding, he is a key character in the story and I was surprised to not see his name listed. Ditto for Beorn.
Beorn is in the tree, as is Tom!
Damn, I looked but didn't see either. Where on the tree?
Tom top right, Beorn bottom right
The Silamaril that Carcharoth ate went for a pretty wild ride
and brought so much grief to Doriath...
the one map to rule them all
And this is why I could never get into The Hobbit or TLOTR.
oh well now you can :)
This is fantastic.
I am curious your thoughts on this theory "Oldest and Fatherless: The Terrible Secret of Tom Bombadil": https://km-515.livejournal.com/1042.html
Could be an interesting new line (and linetype) to add.
that a really interesting and fun read! but I don't think it brings us any closer to who Tom Bombadil actually is, but frankly I don't think anything will
So Galadrielâs daughter married Elrond, then they had Arwen? Weird. Thatâs like me marrying my buddyâs daughter.
Eh its only weird if they were human, at some point even an elf a thousand years younger will achieve a "steady state" level of maturity at which point it wouldn't matter how old they or anyone else is I think
This is amazing. I'm currently reading through the entire Tolkien collection and they are a lot of names I remember reading, and seeing the connections between them helps a lot as well!
enjoy :)
Why did you leave out the color legend you used to have?
I thought it looked super ugly and I just replaced the information int he legend with text on the Tree itself such that I thought it would be easy enough to find out what each box means by looking at the adjacent or nearby text. But I've had many people ask for the legend back so I have to decide on that.
Okay thanks.
I think you have to go wider on the overall image so you can better separate the sections instead of background highlight colors.
Maybe consider making some as boxes too so you can add minor description if need be. Not necessary. Just ideas.
This is incredible. Thank you
ctrl-F 'Legolas' ah yes of course
The thumbnail makes this look like a map of a Pokemon game route
This is awesome, no longer will I be at the naming screen of an RPG trying to figure out a cool new name! Thanks!!
LOL
Was looking for the master of laketown, anybody know if he's there?
good find, he is not on there and is someone that I need to find a place to add, thanks!
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Not origins, but he was tutored by many, which is why he is as awesome as he is!
None, never saw the movie / read the book
Do branch lengths indicate anything (for example, why is Legolas's branch so stretched?)
the tree is generally chronological going down, so if there is a long line it just approximates their location based on nearby characters of when they were born
Didn't GrĂma technically die after the war was over?
Very impressive! Would love to see something similar for GoT and Witcher!
Gandalf has two sets of parents?
not parents, the red line is that of tutelage
Legendary Legend đđŸ
Pippin named his kid after Faramir and not Boromir? that's rough lol
well pippin grew close to Faramir after the events of RoTK
Did he stay in Gondor for long after the war? I cant remember, I thought all the Hobbits returned to the shire fairly quickly.
I can't find the predecessor for "Men".
Do they derive from the beings at the top of the page, or do they stumble into middle Earth, drunk off a ship, as humans are wont to do.
Men have no predecessor.
They were created by Eru Iluvatar and only awoke in HildĂłrien (in the Far East of middle earth) at the start of the First Age
hmm, didn't consider needing to clarify that, will add that to next version!
Love Ghan-buri-Ghan just chillinâ with his dad
đ
Do you know about Signum University and Mythmoot?!
vaguely know about Signum cause Corey Olsen, but don't know what Mythmoot is. Should I know about them?
Yes! They are fun! Tolkien and SFF based. https://signumuniversity.org/
Mythmoot is Signumâs annual gathering of casual and professional nerdery with delightful late-night-into-the-wee-hours firepit conversations and a costume contest!
Your amazing chart would make for a wonderful presentation!!
I am going to need plenty of time to digest all of this information. Amazing!
Wow. Impressive. And actually, I recognized many of those names. I probably read his books way to often.
So... Aragorn married his 2nd cousin? I mean, there are 62 removes, but... 2nd cousin!
So i read the Silmarillion for the first time last year and I had found a different version of this. Kept it open while reading. Only way I could follow.
great to hear!
So what I'm getting from this is that Arwen is Aragorn's first cousin sixty-two times removed.
EDIT: I was gonna copypaste that Elrond is Aragorn's great-great-[sixty more greats]-uncle, but as you can see, I decided that was extra.
Mine, right there at the top. (Just squint or change the E to an i)
About 42, but some were repeated names I thought I knew, but then later found the actual one (Celeborn). I tried to correct but who knows.
I played ToME 2.3.5, quite a bit and a lot of the names appear there.
Obviously all the dragons and demons.
The short bow of amras and amrod also.
Many artifacts were named after the people.
may iluvatar bless you <3 (curently reading silmarillion and i need it this more than ever)
I thought Haldir definitely died during the war of the ring but this says he lived
died only in the movies :)
So, are the ringwraiths names on here?
Sort of
If you can find Aragorn and follow his ancestors up to Isildur and then just up and to the left you'll see them on the image
However we only know the name of a single ringwraith, Khamûl, who is second in command. We also know the title of the leader, the Witch-king of Angmar.
Tolkien never gave any information on the other 7 wraiths so they are left as question marks.
Definitely saving this. I'm just starting The Hobbit now but I know when I'm done the LOTR trilogy I'm going helms deep into the Silmarillion
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I guess so, but the Ring of Barahir was not a ring a power, just a nice ring that belonged to Finrod
Iâve only ever read the hobbit. Are all of these characters in the lord of the rings trilogy?
LOTR was basically a footnote for Tolkien. His real passion was telling the story of the First Age of his world which is where the vast majority of this tree reside.
Ahh. Gotcha. Trying to remember all of these characters would dissuade me from reading it. Iâm too dumb to remember that many people and stories.
It benefits greatly from resources like this (less detailed usually) to keep characters and locations straight.
The Silmarillion is such an amazingly epic piece of work in it's scope.
Is that what this new Amazon show is based on? I havenât watched any of it yet.
Partially, but no. The Amazon show is just high budget fanfic.
It's based in the Second Age and tells the story of the struggle against Sauron leading up to the climactic battle in the prologue of the LOTR films.
The major story beats will somewhat line up but the rest is quite literally just fanfic.
Oh no, far from it. 20% maybe. Most come from the Simarillion, Unfinished Tales and other short stories.
Oh good. I donât think I could remember all of those characters.
What a great guide for tracking family trees!
Do you have a version somewhere where we could search for certain names? (For example I'm looking for Glorfindel but it's a bit hard to tell if he's not in the chart, or if I'm just missing him in the sea of names.)
dont have a searchable version :( would like to make one but not sure how from my excel file
Do you think it would work if it's converted to Google Sheets, and you can make it read only so that nobody messes with it, but we can use the regular search functionality?
If not that's totally fine, I was just wondering because it would make this a little easier to use as a character reference. :)
I can try converting to sheets, but I have low hopes that stuff will look ok as its so complex, would have to alter stuff significantly
90% shoutout to indeepgeek on youtube.
dont watch that channel, prefer Nerd of the rings myself
I saw alien Mr Burns at first glance.
I just spent about an hour looking at this. How fun!
I recognised about 70 names I knew. What do the numbers stand for ? Like the 3 just next to Bilbo ? Is there another part of the tree elsewhere ? (And where are the female ents...?)
Numbers are just numbers of generation. No part of the tree elsewhere. There is one female ent at the top of the tree, fimbrethil. No other ones are named.
Arwen robbed that cradle big time
So were the nine just never identified? Were they just random Kings of the time given the rings by Sauron?
Amazing map! Curious as to why you chose to deviate from the published origin for Orcs, that they are corrupted elves and not men?
if you follow the line, you'll see they come from the avari elves, with the possible origin of uruk hai being mixed from men
Ahhh my bad. Missed that
Itâs similar, but not exact, to the one I sketched out on my McDonaldâs napkin this morning.
We need that in a museum
LOL
I recognize âElmoâ but am surprised to see him here.
What's going on with Bilbo?
If you guys tracked politicians and fact-checked things with the same obsession and zeal you guys track fake characters and fake stories the world would be a much better place.
I'm unable to find Michael Flatley in this beautiful chart. I'm sure he belongs near the top, but I cannot remember exactly where.
Iâve been rereading the Silmarillion and am constantly looking for family trees. This one will be saved to my photos, thank you.
Tom Bombadil in his own little corner lmao I love the theory that heâs the physical embodiment of the harmony from the Music of The Valar and Ungoliant is the physical form of the discord/dissonance from Morgoth!
I need this for game of thrones
I'm not new to Tolkien but fuck. I only recognize the big names
I recognise too many names
Ah yes, the elves of Doriath oft recant the tales of Elmo.
I donât have to zoom in to know which is the line of Aragorn.
Why were so many people named Faramir? That's my question lol
Real talk who isnt named Faramir
Question - how come in the line of Gondor so many bore a ring? Shouldn't there be 20 ring wraiths from this line alone?
They bore the ring of Barahir, which was not a Ring of Power
The creators name is pottergandalf117 lmao
Yes đ
I see a lot of possible brand names for future pharmaceuticals!
I spent way to long looking at this. Nicely done!
TĂšraâŠâŠand it stops there. I donât know any of the others.
lmao Tom Bombadil in his own corner is perfect
When did Drogo have time to leave the khalasar in Essos to bang Frodo's mom in the Shire?
Huh, TIL Celebrimbor and Celeborn weren't closely related. I guess I'd assumed they were because of how similar their names were.
Without my microscope? None
holy shit man i didnt know it was like this
At first glance I thought these were metabolic pathways
How many names can you read?
Am I too stoned or do I see a yellow headed dude strangling a green headed man in top right? Hahaha.
Tom Bombadil lmao. He belongs at the top above all!
I see Shadowfax, but I demand to know Bill the ponyâs lineage.
There are two "last kings of kazaddun"
Is that right?
I hope they got paid to make this đ§
I love the simple question mark on Tom Bombadil
Since the point of this to be pedantic, Elrond should have the ring of Barahir too.
he held onto it for safe keeping, but was he really a "bearer"?
Given that bearer means carrier, I would say yes lol. More to the point, without that edit, the ring disappears for hundreds of years.
I'd be interested in Stephen Colberts take on this.
TIL they replace the white tree periodically. that makes a lot more sense.
Who are the Black Numenoreans?
evil (king's men) numenoreans
I want this to be clickable on a website somewhere. I always forget that I never got fully indepth into Middle Earth as I think I did. I always loved the story line, but sometimes the books were just too much to digest and way too wordy for my tiny brain. But this is beautiful and makes me want to try again.
thank you :) its a wonderful world
that is my end goal, to have an online clickable version, but i'm not sure how to make that real lol
Is there an interactive version of this - where you can click on name and it gives you some Wiki details abou the person or make it possible to show only one branch from top to bottom?
there isnt yet, but would love to start working on that
"Somehow Palpatine returned"
I just read the silmarilion and a couple of the ones edited by Christopher Tolkien, so more than I expected. All that lore was pretty enjoyable! Would recommend
Fantastic overview!
Only thing I found lacking was distinguishing dragons:
Is Celebrimbor not in here?
He is, look in the green section of noldor elves
I see! What about Legolas? Wasnât he a Mirkwood elf?
Found him.
I really miss the old legend with colour code, really important info there
I have a question. I come to reddit on a phone and this image shows in 640x941. That makes reading anything impossible even when I try to zoom. Anyone has the same issue? Is there a workaround or a source to bigger resolution image? Thanks
Use Apollo on the phone or use a computer, Reddit app and reddit on phone browser sucks
Thanks. But Im on android and no pc in sight. Could I ask for a link to higher size picture?
You have Eldalótë listed as a male. Time to make a new version!
Scrolling through my feed i thought this was a metabolic pathway for a second. Impressive you did it with excel
Reads like a list of prescription medication.
Ask your doctor if Calmacil may be for you.
âFinding yourself worked up at the end of the day?
Are you at the end of your rope before the day even starts?
Calmacil can help. Ask your doctor for a free sample today.â
"If you or a loved one took Calmacil between the years 2020 - 2022, you may be entitled to compensation. Call now to speak to a legal representative."
Contingency? No, money down!
There's no Eye of Sauron in Teamocil, at least not where you'd think.
Yes, I see what you've done there...
"Side effects may include: dry mouth, nausea, vomiting, water retention, painful rectal itch, hallucination, dementia, psychosis, coma, death, and halitosis. Magic is not for everyone. Consult your doctor before use."
Fuck yeah, warcraft 3 memories
When I started DM'ing my DND campaign, my wife gave me a list of meds to use for NPCs.
I've been using them for 2 years and still no one noticed.
I am Sildenafil the Hard!
Well met! I am Zoloft the well-adjusted
Bow before Carvedilol the Limp, 25th Milligram of His Line!
Vericiguat, theologian and counsel
Ticagrelor, master archer and spell-caster
Nisoldipine, high priest of the conquered Zona Glomerulosa, suspected nefarious advisor to the King
Gallopamil, the hammerfist, feared swordsman and brutal fist-fighter
Sitaxentan, his son Bosentan and his daughter Ambrisentan, ruler and children of the fringe arid highland kingdom of Endothelin
Abciximab, military strategist and brilliant logistician
Guanabenz, shit-poster extraordinaire and 30,000 dollar millionaire
Runfayfun, source of my next party namelist
Or a medical diagnostics chart.
https://play.howstuffworks.com/quiz/drug-or-tolkien-elf-quiz
With enough time and effort, anything is possible in excel
People who have full power over Excel are my heros. A truly awe inspiring power to behold.
One cell to rule them all. One cell to FIND() them. One cell to bring them all and in the darkness bind them. In the land of Mordrosoft, where nested formulae lie.
Itâs just a whole lot of floating text boxes. If they were actual cells, that would be impressive.