The fact that this has almost 30,000 upvotes says a lot about how smart Redditors are
Local Link | Content link | Reddit Link
r/fragilecommunismu/tronix-nsfw (577)

Comments (88)

Thanks for stopping by everyone.

Please follow the Reddit content policy while interacting with other users here. Mainly we ask that you refrain from any threatening/violent behavior, keep discussions on topic, and if you're visiting from another subreddit, do not engage in vote manipulation tactics.

Join our Telegram! : https://t.me/FragComGroup

If you like what we're doing here, you may want to join our friends at r/Voluntaristmemes.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

Boy is this wrong.

First this assumes labour theory of value, which is wrong, just by looking at specific examples like books and paintings.

Second, it assumes the capitalist will receive those 40 bucks, which if it were true, no capitalist would fail their enterprise, as success is guaranteed.

Third, it assumes that because surplus theft is the only way to gain value, the more surplus, the more value, ergo the longer the capitalism goes on the more surplus theft and the worse the working class is.

Yet despite the more than 200 years of capitalism is not only the working class better than before, it's better than ever could have been imagined.

That people seriously consider this theory, only because it has superficial level internal consistency is disappointing.

If a company is paying a person more than they produce, why would they ever employ them? If they are paying them exactly what they produce, again why employ them?

​

> b-b-b-but it's just like slavery!

​

No. You signed the employment contract. This is your choice. Don't like it? Then go work for yourself and you can keep everything.

People interested in socialism seem the kind that could never work for themselves. They think they’re doomed to take a job that someone else offers them.

If this man were right he could start a business and undercut every competitor while still paying his workers better. But he doesn’t, because he can’t. It’s a dead giveaway.

If you think you are doomed to work for someone else, than you are aren't you? It is like saying you are doomed to never find a girlfriend, then you will be. Communists are just economic incels. The difference is that most incels get tired of being incels by 30 and just get a girlfriend. I think Communism is worse because the worse of an employment history you rack up the harder it gets to escape.

I gave this a chance and what fucking nonsense. Guy who spent his whole life in academia, never experienced communism in a country actively using it, never worked a real job in his life most likely, comparing work you agree to do vs slavery. Always remember, those that cannot do teach.

The great irony is that the less goverment meddling the better the conditions get for the working man whereas governments that actively push for socialism has the working man loose more and more and the elite get more and more powerful

I disagree, deregulation just ends up causing harm to the workers because if they try to stand up for themselves they get fired, so they're forced to work in less than ideal conditions for a very bad pay just because their employers can do it.

Vs over regulation in which employees are on their toes all day trying not to break one of the many arbitrary rules and regulations and getting fired for breaking one

Or instead where their bosses have to pay them a decent wage and where they don't risk their lives because the boss is forced to provide PPEs ?

The worker can decide if the conditions are safe for him to work in and refuse if they don’t meet their standards, a free market allows for more jobs with competitive rates etc

Much better than the socialist approach in chaining people to tables and forcing them to build the elites iPhones

you cant be seriously, rampant untapped capitalism will do its best to rip off his employees as much as possible, just look at USA, where worker rights are almost nil, vs the rest of the civilized world, heck even in my shit tier 3rd world country i have better work rights than my USA counterparts in the literal same job.

That’s one of the stupidest things I’ve heard in my life.

calls something stupid, refuses to ellaborate...

In the past 40 years more wealth has been created, for everyone but particularly for poor people in Africa, than all of the wealth created in all of human history prior. People in the 21st century live like gods compared to the way people lived just 100 years ago.

You're deeply delusional if you believe otherwise.

Okay I'm trying to understand this. You compared living standards of people in the past Vs now. But isn't that just a function of time though? I mean people in 1800s probably lived better than people in 1700s. With the advent of newer technologies, the lives of people will definitely improve. This is to say I'm not disagreeing to your point but disagreeing to the cause that brought the said improvement.

Surely middle class today lives better than royalties in the past but the royalties today (or the upper class) live exponentially better lives than royalties in past. Although lives of middle clas have improved the difference between the rich and poor hasn't been better. Infact some say the wealth gap is highest at the moment. I don't see how the issue wealth gap has been addressed.

No hostility. I'm just trying to understand things here.

Its more about the speed of the change in the living standarts. The point is that capitalism enables good ideas to flourish whilst weeding out bad technology with no actuual improvement.

I once had a socialist tell me its easy to tell if a innovation is benneficial or not beforehand, because better roads is a improvement.
That completely ignores what you actually have to do to make better roads, life isnt civ VI. You have to actually develop the new material, or new building method, new design ect. and sometimes it might end up being more expensive for barely better results,(for example 20% higher durability for 90% more expensive construction) so it doesnt take off under capitalism, because its simply not worth the money of investors.
If you want to see a bunch of noninovations, look at musks hyperloop, or on any tech start up site, full of garbage thats never going to work.

Okay I'm trying to understand this. You compared living standards of people in the past Vs now. But isn't that just a function of time though?

No, the living standards of people under communist rule under the USSR and China decreased dramatically in the 20th century. China only improved when they accepted capitalism in the 1970s.

A typical metric is lifespan which decreased somewhat in the USSR and dramatically in CCP ruled China. These decreases were largely due to famines caused by socialist policy. Socialist nations in Africa and the America's also saw lifespan decreases due to famine.

Socialism has literally killed more people than cancer. It's the worst thing ever.

I mean people in 1800s probably lived better than people in 1700s. With the advent of newer technologies, the lives of people will definitely improve.

Essentially ALL technological development is due to capitalism. Communists developed virtually no consumer technology.

What consumer technology have Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea, etc. invented in their entire history? I guarantee you'll struggle to find anything at all.

The USSR DID actually invent some new technology, but it was almost entirely military.

Surely middle class today lives better than royalties in the past

Correct.

but the royalties today (or the upper class) live exponentially better lives than royalties in past.

Completely 100% false. Royals today do not live literally hundreds of years in perfect health. In terms of health and lifespan their benefits over the middle class and even the extremely poor are marginal, a decade longer lifespan at most.

True, royals today live in giant palaces with dozens of servants. But they lived in giant palaces with dozens of servants hundreds of years ago. That hasn't changed at all.

I never claimed the wealthy have somehow gotten "poorer" over the last 40 years.

Although lives of middle clas have improved the difference between the rich and poor hasn't been better.

Who cares as long as the lives of the poor and middle class are dramatically improving?

Infact some say the wealth gap is highest at the moment.

They're wrong. On a GLOBAL basis the wealth gap has never been smaller.

You're comparing estimated wealth gap levels JUST in the USA and to some extent Western Europe between the 1960s and 1990s.

And again, that's ONLY the USA. For the vast majority of people on Earth in places like Africa, India, China, South America, etc. income is up 200% or more in adjusted dollars vs. the 1960s.

In Eastern Europe and Russia income has also improved vs. the 1960s under the USSR, but not as dramatically. Maybe up 50%.

The "wealth gap" vs. the 1960s is EXCLUSIVELY a USA and Northern Europe issue.

The alternative systems like communism avoid ripping off employees by making everyone but the elites into slaves

Just look at the USA, where worker rights are almost nil

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

vs the rest of the civilized world

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I’m scared to even ask how someone even becomes THIS delusional in the first place.

I work in IT in Sweden, and recruitment is getting pretty crazy these pandemic days. People are switching jobs left and right, and employers are scrambling to replace them. So recruitment agent will get a "finders fee" of 6 months of wages for the position that they can hire. Then there's some training on the job as people get accustomed to the systems they'll be working with at the new place. And it takes a while after a developer has made something, before it can be sold and start generating revenue.

Employers will have to pay a huge chunk of expenses before the employee has brought in a single cent to the company. And that is long before they know if it will make a profit.

I run a small company in the health care industry—this hit hard. We’re trying to hire as well and these headhunters are insane! We’re just trying to find people on our own now lol

also it assumes that only monetary compensation is the only value being exchanged between employer and employee.

The irony of telling kids that they’re getting ripped off from their employers while simultaneously making a six-figure professor salary funded from their over-inflated tuition costs which are driven up by government-guaranteed student loans…

Peak “capitalism” is selling a product that nobody needs that is completely worthless but is a bragging right for idiots who can’t grasp basic economics

Or better put, selling a stupid person a product they think they want

Over inflated tuition costs, AND federal subsidies... which is probably why he omitted saying anything about taxes, levy’s, fines, regulations and taxes from the same government body paying his salary, not to mention whatever state taxes there could be. And this idiot is a professor... 🤦‍♂️

Yeah it’s a pretty messed up circle jerk with capitalism this man knows his revolution isn’t coming therefor his topic is still valid to make money off. He’s the example of what he hates hahah. But with that, seems like more negative points to capitalism

It’s like he doesn’t know about paying taxes, rent, attorneys, IT people, the electric bill, maintenance costs, janitors, etc etc the list goes on. Not to mention the owner of the business had the original idea and is taking on all the risk, generally thanks to a loan from the bank that they make payments and pay the interest on.

It’s not hard to understand why worker’s pay isn’t exactly equal to what they produce.

Capitalism, you keep saying that word.....I do not think it means what you think it means.

Oh man, he is right! I better farm my own vegetables and grow my own food and collect my own water via rain......what's that? I am not legally allowed to do any of those things unless I pay taxes? Well shit.....ok, I'll build my own house on my own land with self sustainable power and irrigation.....what? I have to pay for permits and property tax?......well shit......guess I don't have a choice but to prostitute myself to this mega corporation who, in concert with the government, wrote the laws preventing me from living a self-reliant life......man.....wish I could just own my own resources and capital and produce things that my fellow man wanted or needed and exchange with them freely....without government overregulating, over-taxing, licensing and picking economic winners and losers..........I wonder what you'd call that system.....

Richard Wolff is a PhD in economics but a lot of times he sounds like a populist demagogue blowhard. He also looks like a creepy old man

This guy has a PhD in economics? Jesus, there really is no standard to those degrees anymore, is there?

There is one condition in capitalism under which you will get a job: you will have to produce more for your employer than the employer pays you.

He’s missing two key words there: “eventually” and “hopefully”. And I wonder if he has a home or car insurance policy, because by his logic, he shouldn’t.

He is also completely forgetting about people starting their own business. He might have some slick remark about that person working for the bank but that would be incorrect. They get away with peddling these ideas because the people they are talking with have zero comprehension of economics.

you will have to produce more for your employer than the employer pays you.

Yes. But remember without the employer providing you with the tools and equipment you need to do your job. Your output will be zero.

If you make 100 burgers an hour and each burger sells for $5 you haven't made $500 in an hour. Once you take away the rent, equipment costs, staffing overheads, materials costs, regulatory and legislative costs, taxes and the rest. You might have only made the company $20 in an hour. If you take $15 of that, then the company is making $5 an hour from your labour. The CEO is better off selling the company, making you unemployed, buying some shares and letting someone else who's able to produce more value for their labour so the work

Well tbh you don't have to be a savant to be a doctor in most of these fields.. Just stick with it long enough and write research papers and you can make a lucrative career in academia. Richard Wolff has spent his entire life in academia so its not a surprise he lacks a lot of real world knowledge. This isn't a new phenomenon either I've seen this in real life. Whoever puts academics anywhere near the top of the social hierarchy needs to find jesus or something

By those conditions, he should probably making a quarter of his current salary.

He also looks like a creepy old man

That’s what high doses of communism does to a person.

Communism, not even once.

D.A.R.E. to say no to communism!

This idiocy also runs with the idea that all value is derived from labor, this is absolutely absurd for anyone who isn't an ideologue. If you work at Mcdonald's you did not produce the full value of that burger, not only do the other factors of production contribute to the value, but also things you wouldn't normally consider like branding.

He's a communist moron who has been robbing taxpayers for decades. Put his ass on the street and make him do a real job, like working at McDonald's.

30,000 upvotes on reddit according to reddit

The votes on this site lost their legitimacy years ago.

I honestly think it’s mostly teenagers upvoting this crap.

That too. But still gamed, imo. Reddit was always left wing, but back in like 2012 it was never this dominant and stupid

This guy basically just said that voluntary labor in exchange for agreed upon compensation is slavery because...profit?

What an absolute dipshit.

They can't fathom the idea that labour is no different from any other good because it completely dissolves their argument.

It's almost as if the difference between slavery and a modern job is consent.

Like yeah no shit. If I get paid 9/hr making burgers and fries, I'm definately going to cook more than $9 worth of food every hour. Thats how working... works.

"working" seems to be a fairly foreign concept to this chapo professor, although he looks pretty well fed for a slave doesnt he? :)

Loser

It is funny how little these people understand capitalism. They probably like to point out how little others know about socialism as well.

Of course you have to produce more than you receive in wages, otherwise you would just go out and run your own enterprise instead of relying on the employer for your wages (in which you keep 100% of the profit). But we don't see even most people doing that - the question is why?

If you were to go out and run your own enterprise, you would realise all of the costs associated with doing so - which the boss has to pay for but which the worker has no liability: corporate taxes, property taxes, marketing, etc.

Wolff's critique only works if you assume a completely static market with no fluctuations in the demand and supply of goods and services. He also assumes that all the employer is doing is taking from the employee and providing nothing in return. It's a great story but he's not talking about the society we currently live in or the economy that most of the developed world is living with.

What they ignore is that %90 of that surplus profit is invested directly back into the business.

Not really. Your number is way off. Capital expenditures are usually nowhere near 90% of (positive cash flow - capex).

Apparently it's possible to get a PhD in Economics without ever reading Adam Smith

Wolf is the master at trying to make things seem world altering when in reality they are the most meaningless in substance.

If 30000 dumbasses in Reddit, ergo the Average Redditors

Name a more iconic duo than labout theory of value and surplus value.

Oh, modern workers being compared with chattel slavery.

This is from /r/antiwork isn't it?

Like the capitalist, the worker must sell what he has at a price the buyer agrees to.

Shit product; shit price.

It's not how much you think you're worth.

I hire a contractor to build me a fence, hey let's just call it a wall (a yuge one, just to be a dick). So the contractor and I negotiate on a price. This is just a wall around my house, it makes me no money but may change my property value one way or the other.

The contractor decides how long it's going to take, the cost of labor, and the materials, rentals, their insurance, wear and tear on their tools, whatever else.

How did I screw that guy? Should they absorb part of the sale of my property when sold commensurate to the value of the wall? At the time of construction or at the time of the sale? How do we handle it if it loses value because of the wall, do I get to demand a refund?

How is risk calculated in dumbfuckistan?

Want your kids to have immunity to this kind of propaganda? Have them read economics from a book this simple.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFxvy9XyUtg

Why does this guy look and sound like a sitcom dad? He has some weird Archie Bunker or Al from All My Children vibes going.

Also, there was an old Elmer Fudd cartoon featuring Sylvester that says somewhat opposite of what this guy is saying. Its sad really because Disney and even Warner Brothers on occasion were really good with teaching economics back in the day.

He’s not wrong it’s just what he’s saying isn’t really a bad thing

He makes the assumption that an employment is zero sum, which is very wrong imo.

The labour theory of value is moronic communist trash. Capitalism is not a zero sum game.

Read this top level comment.

His entire premise is based on not understanding that the employer has more financial burdens than the employee, you might punch holes in a cardboard box all day but your empoyer has to buy the material, get it delivered, assure quality, assemble product, maintain tools, sell product and then deliver it whereas the box cutter employee just has to cut boxes and then gets to go home with no other worries

There’s nothing stopping you from opening your own competing box cutting service but without investment you’re going to be struggling to supply to a small factory let alone multiple factories

His sharing of his idea isn’t a bad thing. It’s a good thing. However, I think the folks on this sub, myself included take a different perspective. He is arguing from the point of the fringes. A McDonald’s Owner making 400% on a worker’s hour of work and not making enough to make a living wage is a fair critique. One of the issues that I personally observed is the the US being a morally just and good populace have rejected slavery and serfdom. Where I will sympathize with his position is that as Americans, we struggle with our acceptance poverty. Why should an engineer be paid the same as a burger flipper? Right, that is the lightening question? Well, is that really the question? Should full time working adults be able to exist and function? My answer is yes. I think he is attacking capitalism, sighting the Lorenz curve without saying so directly, and ignoring the responsibility of the state. A business owners job is to make money. A representative’s job is to protect his population. You can satisfy both, and I personally don’t like this gentleman’s one sided take.

Boss need to make money to keep business open? To bad so sad I cry thousand tear….(how retards think)

What a pack of lazy morons.

Is this guy working for a university which pays him a wage to teach bullshit to students? Is he getting all of the tuition those students paid to be lied to? No? Then where is the surplus value of his labour going?

Things that make you go, "STFU!"

Being a professor of a specific topic I find it odd he doesn’t understand specialization and how that can lead to scalable outputs

There are a fair amount of pretty based people in that comment section calling this guy on his BS which is cool

TIL farmers in the Soviet Union sold all their crops that they worked on and got to keep all the money and didn’t get shot or sent to a gulag for simply not meeting quotas.

I think if I was a farmer I’d rather not make as big of a profit when I don’t produce enough food rather than jailtime/death/left with nothing so I starve to death, but maybe I’m just not enlightened enough.

How does the business owner afford to pay everyone else who is part of the organization who is not directly involved in the manufacturing of the good.

Even if you grant the labor theory of value, organizations could have IT guys to keep the computers running, HR staff, janitors, etc. supplying their labor, not to mention the various overhead costs and related maintenance expenses. And if the dude who makes the $40 widget gets paid the $40, no one else can get paid the value of their labor.

This guy if he existed in 1464

Most people choose reddit because it’s anonymous, this site was mainly used for porn and gore some years ago

Geez, I wonder where the notion that Communism has infiltrated the schools comes from?

How many people does this guy employ? I'm guessing none as all he has to do is find people that are willing to listen to his bullshit.

He’s telling the truth at the start atleast but how the fuck would it function differently in communism,,?? The government still gotta make money and corruption exists

All I could think during this whole monologue was “by what metric?”

Ah yes, because willingly entering a job contract with the consent of both parties is exactly the same as being kidnapped, put on a ship where you have no space to breathe and you get infections from the feces of others, being brought to another country against your will, being stripped of your cultural identity, being whipped, fed to alligators, raped, tortured, killed and humiliated, being forced to work with almost no food in the hot sun on a plantation from sunrise to sunset, unable to escape. Jesus Christ. The fact that this guy even attempted to compare a normal job to slavery is disgusting and enraging. Next thing you know this fuckhead will compare Summer camp to the Holocaust.

Richard wolf is a morn

I hate this argument

If someone is so confident their labor is worth more than the company pays them, literally what is stopping them from working independently and benefiting from the full value of their labour? I like capitalism, my company benefits from my labour just like I benefit from the higher income I enjoy from the company than I would independently, and I feel like this is something even leftists believe, at least subconsciously

I see a role for the USDA in focusing this issue but reclassifying commies as a source of vegan protein

I mean, hes not technically wrong, capitalism (and the other economy systems before it like feudalism and slavery) is that is designed to extract as much value as possible.

But also the employer takes the risk of the enterprise (costs, wages, profits, etc), so is not really that black and white. Although for most people, they just default to work for someone else because they either dont have the capital or they prefer not to take such risks.

I didn't know Chevy Chase was teaching university