There will always be a Babylon.
The power void left by the fallen empire will be filled by another.
A truly epic piece of art.
There will always be a Babylon.
The power void left by the fallen empire will be filled by another.
A truly epic piece of art.
"I was there, at the dawn of the Third Age of Mankind. It began in the Earth year 2257 with the founding of the last of the Babylon stations, located deep in neutral space. It was a port of call for refugees, smugglers, businessmen, diplomats and travelers from a hundred worlds. It could be a dangerous place, but we accepted the risk because Babylon 5 was our last, best hope for peace. Under the leadership of its final commander, Babylon 5 was a dream given form, a dream of a galaxy without war, when species from different worlds could live side-by-side in mutual respect, a dream that was endangered as never before by the arrival of one man on a mission of destruction. Babylon 5 was the last of the Babylon stations. This is its story."
Ur old as fuk
I’m not old, I’m 37!
Keep the Great Knowledge alive, my friend.
Always upvote Monty Python
I mean, tbh i kinda feel like people have already made any mark they possibly could by age 25 and after that is just withering away and dying (which i am not comfortable with at all, but feel is the unfortunate truth nevertheless).
What kind of nonsense is that? Personal feelings aside, Trump became president at like 70. He hadn't done anything by 25. Look at someone like Joe Rogan, dude is 50 something and just keeps getting better.
People are idiots before the age of 25.
onsense is that? Personal feelings aside, Trump became president at like
Trump and Rogan are both dimwits. Certainly not who we want to lot to as those who've achieved. Unless of course you're a dunce millennial and only think it terms of 'they can get on tv'.
You're a couple months late to the conversation, and you're off topic.
The post was whether people can achieve success after the age of 25. I gave 2 examples of people who have achieved success later in life.
Trump was already a millionaire at age 8.
Clearly wealth isn't the focus of this conversation. "Making your mark" implies achievement. The suggestion is that it's all over by 25 is ludicrous regardless of child millionaires existing.
Lol that is the stupidest shit I've ever read.
If 25 is your peak and that you have nothing to offer past that you might as well give up now. Hell, most people aren't even done with their doctorates by then. There are literally people in their 30s that have yet to even become masters in their field to discover, cure, and advance society and humans as a whole.
Even in fields were youth is key (athletes) 25 is still a kid. You're not peak anything at 25 except maybe arrogance.
No offense, just don't be like that. It's not true, it's just a thought you had spring in your head. You're better than that, we all are.
Actually i am 20 rn and out of shape and just kinda feel like i have made key mistakes to ruin my life entirely.
Dude, you're only 20. You can have made pretty much every mistake in the book and still have plenty of time to figure your shit out. Hell, I'm about to turn 27 and I'm just figuring mine out - that's kind of what your twenties are for, fucking up that is. You just have to figure out exactly what you don't like about your life/who you are right now and make key decision to be a different person who acts in a different way. It's not easy, but things that are worth it never are easy, but it will be rewarding to wake up one day and realize that one thing that's pissed you off about yourself is just not who are anymore.
People are vast, multifaceted beings, always capable of change, even if you're broke and close to loosing everything, you can always bring yourself back from your own brink. It's just about deciding to do things differently, to change and challenge your mindset, to challenge yourself to be the person you want to see in the mirror.
Again, not ever going to say it's easy, but it is worth it. For instance, you say you're out of shape; spring is coming, why not try to get out every day you can, just go for a walk, or pick up a hobby that involves being outside (literally can be anything, walking, bird watching, cycling, photography, legit anything that makes you happy and motivates you to keep doing it) and just get out there. You don't have to even start with a gym, just get out and enjoy yourself. Getting that fresh air every day (or as much as possible) might just change your mindset more than you'd ever imagine. All big change is truly just a whole bunch of small decisions stacked together with your own will and eventual confidence.
Be the change you want to see in yourself pal, no one will ever be able to change it but you. Once you love yourself, or even just care for yourself in a meaningful way, the world opens up in a way that is totally unfathomable to someone who is used to just treating themselves like shit and just eking out an existence. This is relevant whether you're 15, 20, or 65.
I turn 30 in May, and I'm still fucking up left and right. But the difference between 19 and 29 is that now I'm fucking up in an upwardly mobile direction.
Edit: fucking upward?
Makes me wonder what kind of lifestyles the people around you that are over 25 lead. Not taking care of yourself after your late 20s has much more severe consequences than pre 25 when you can just eat anything and get drunk every night and feel fine. Good diet, lots of water and exercise will take you well into your 60s with a body that's capable of all kinds of shit that can make you happy.
I guess my point is: adult the fuck up with your attitude or you aren't going to like life after 25 :)
Cuts deep.
I remember feeling that way when I was young, but damn if life didn't teach me differently. I play with an accomplished musician who didn't pick it up until his 40s. I know a director of a psych department who didn't go to grad school until she was 38. They're both killing it in their fields and they're situation isn't rare. If you have a worthwhile dream, fucking pursue it, you're going to get older either way.
Your early twenties is the end of the first surge of energy, when the hormones driving you to grow and socialize quiet down.
Your intrinsic motivation and habits can take the driver’s seat more and more often in your twenties and beyond, and you can choose things that energize and appeal to you over longer terms.
You're either an idiotic 15-year-old, or a waste of a 30-year-old.
Not 30 yet but most likely a waste.
What is this from ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_5
Great show from the 90s. Still holds up. It’s available on amazon prime to watch.
Thanks I’ll check it out!
For it's time it had pretty great special effects / 3D animations.
One of my favorites of all time. Think the first sci-fi TV show I watched that had a multi season story and definite end that was planned from the beginning. Lots of filler episodes that were still fun and made me care about all of the characters.
Is it any similar to Stargate?
There are gates that lead to the stars, so yes.
Did you see deep space 9?
Babylon 5, I would presume.
"these are their stories" bongbong
There's also just Babylon, New York.
Sadly, the one on Long Island doesn't have a snake nearly as awesome as the one in the painting. Nice town, though. Captain Kangaroo (Bob Keeshan) lived there back in the day, IIRC.
Rodney Dangerfield, Butterfly McQueen and Guglielmo Marconi all lived there.
Babylon was eventually conquered by Alexander the Great (by moving a whole river!). He thought that it was so magnificent, that he made Babylon the capital city of his empire. He even died there.
I love this. There is so much happening.
Love the detail in the bottom right of the person pleading with the soldier.
Truly ahead of its time.
Except not really... literally a hundred years before this other artists had been painting similarly epic pieces in oil
(Not to say this isn’t a masterpiece, just saying, there are other, equally impressive pieces going back to probably the renaissance)
Hard to say what's 'equally impressive' since Martin is incredible, but i agree that e.g. in the Baroque era there is some frickin AMAZING epic work in oil that certainly gives this etching/print with its limited color a serious run for its money, yes
There is something very big budget Hollywood movie of the year about it.
The colouration in this is truly futuristic and not commonly seen in oil paintings of this time or before.
Actually i think this is an incorrect comment -- the stylistic sophistication has advanced through the various eras: Renaissance, Mannerist, Baroque, perhaps Rococo, NeoClassical.... but the coloration in this piece (an etching/mezzotint) being part of a print-edition project (or perhaps even hand/water-colored after the fact, I should google this piece) is NOT particularly 'advanced' over say Baroque coloration which got extremely sophisticated... this is like a colored-in-comic book. Curious if you got your opinion from some external source, if so, i'd like to see because it goes against what I'm seeing
Is there a word for this kind of art? Like epic skies, battles and falling cities in the background. Lots of different human activity happening in the foreground?
The overall style is Romantic, but I’m not sure if there is a sub genre for this type - many Romantic works are epic, but I’ve seen few so panoramic and capturing vastness as well as Martin. They had a few of his paintings at the St Louis Museum of Art when I went a few years back, pretty incredible.
"Sadak in Search of the Waters of Oblivion" at the St. Louis Art Museum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadak_in_Search_of_the_Waters_of_Oblivion
I have the poster. More interestingly, a friend of mine confined to a wheel chair late in life had it framed in his office - poignant.
My wife and I always get a postcard from every art museum we visit to put on the fridge - that’s the one from St. Louis. In full size it really is breathtaking.
I would consider the subgenre to be Sublime artwork. Specifically this is a word from Latin that just means the focus is on the greatness of something. In art history, Sublime art normally features those big skies and action colors.
Thomas Cole had a series of paintings in this style you may like: The Course of Empire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Course_of_Empire_(paintings) You might also enjoy his The Voyage of Life series. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Voyage_of_Life He's a well known Hudson River School artist and worth spending some serious time with. These two series are to degree in the Hudson River School style but I'd be more inclined to put them in the Romantic category. Another Hudson River School artist you may spend quality time with would be Albert Bierstadt: no great battle scenes, but some awesome landscapes. Eg., A Storm in the Rocky Mountains - Mount Rosalie. https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/a-storm-in-the-rocky-mountains-mt-rosalie/rQFn_yMzurNDsQ?hl=en
Thank you for this great answer.
What's even more dope? We share the same birthday! I need to do more research on this man... Amazing paintings.
The style is Romantic, but you should check out his other works if you like this stuff. My personal favorite is The Great Day of His Wrath from the Last Judgement triptych.
I love this piece too, just ordered a print of it to hang in my living room!
Aw man totally not the style as the above painting, but still grandiose in its scope, is The Battle of Alexander at Issus by Albrecht Altdorfer.
https://classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com/814/flashcards/501814/jpg/23-09.jpg
So much detail crammed into one painting.
/r/BattlePaintings might scratch that itch for you
While Romanticism is probably what you're looking for, if you're into busy and/or jam-packed images, you might wanna check out r/wimmelbilder
[deleted]
no
What?
Dude this is literally the exact type of art that’s usually displayed in that sub
Incredible, including the lighting bolts
You need to see this in person. The sheer scale of this thing is breathtaking.
Those lightning bolts are so thin, I thought some of them were rips.
How big is it?
Edit: another impression of this print is on paper 18 1/2 x 23 3/8 inches.
Excellent question: I guess it's not actually that big! Apparently I never saw this.
I think what I was looking at was The Great Day of His Wrath by the same artist, which is roughly 6.5 feet by 10 feet.
Wow, that is rather larger indeed. At the same time, The Great Day of His Wrath is an oil painting whereas The Fall of Babylon is a Mezzotint.
I started on a Mezzotint once. A tiny plate of 2 x 3 inches. You have to work the entire surface with a steel device called a 'rocker' to make many small indentations. Many times actually, for many different angles. It took hours. 18 1/2 x 23 3/8 is huuuuuge for a Mezzotint. At least, that's the opinion of me and my sore wrist.
As the most popular British painter of his time he might have had someone else prepare the plate for him.
You are not wrong, lol.
It's a gorgeous piece for sure, and inspires a whole different kind of awe.
Check out this thing for big art Arrival of the Hungarians by Arpad Feszty, it is a whopping 390 feet long! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrival_of_the_Hungarians
Incredible! Thanks for the link.
He made mezzotint copies of his paintings so that the public could enjoy them, so you might have seen the original.
They have his painting "the Seventh Plague" at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts, and the lightning and atmosphere in it is insane. Especially in person
The city was sacked by the Persians diverting the river that ran through the city allowing them to get in through the walls when the water level dropped.
I can’t say for sure but this might explain why the soldiers at the bottom are in a sunken in area - artist maybe trying to convey that was where the water was prior.
Cool lil historical fact- after Cyrus the Great and the Persians conquered the city, they freed all the slaves and declared freedom of religion and racial equality. I believe it was the first recorded declaration of human rights, written on the Cyrus Cylinder.
[deleted]
Interesting parallel is there are two people in the Bible referred to as the ‘anointed one’. One is Cyrus, who frees Gods people from the captivity in Babylon. The other is Christ, who at the second coming frees Gods people from Babylon the Great in Revelation 17.
The Jews have a whole bunch of Messiahs man.
The interesting thing is that Cyrus is the only gentile to receive the honour of being anointed by YHWH. Really shows how much he was revered by the Jewish people of the time for freeing them from the Babylonian Captivity and funding the construction of the Second Temple
Thanks for that explanation - that's really interesting. I was wondering why there looked to be water along the far walls that should be covering the battle below.
Eventually they diverted the river into Babylon and flooded the whole city so it looked like “a meadow”
So this is what happen if Chaldea had not interfered with the singularity
Not enough mud.
Needs more Tiamat Honestly
lol all i'm thinking of is that massive hanging gardens from the anime.
Caster Gil > Archer Gil
Ah, I see you're a man of culture as well
Ah, I see you are a traveling man.
subreddit for art like this?
/r/museum, /r/imaginarylandscapes, Or /r/imaginarybattlefields
r/museum. Sometimes /r/heavymind.
Inaccurate portrayal. Doesn't show at least three great scientists having shown up before composite bowmen
Babylon is so damn powerful if you can stack the bonuses. I ran out of tiles for academies in my main science city once.
i love that you can see the representation of the tower of babel obscured in the clouds
I assumed the “pyramid” was the Tower of Babel until I noticed the massive structure behind it in the clouds. I could spend all day looking at this painting, it’s so detailed and epic
yeah, it looks so surreal and larger than life. gives me chills!
My favourite painting at The Louvre is Pandemoneum by John Martin.
Agree 100%, I stared for so long at that painting. Love this mans style.
Are you me?
Dab on the Persians at bottom left corner http://imgur.com/gallery/2uCmFG6
Is there a sub for unintentional dabs in artwork?
[deleted]
r/unintentionaldabs
I was looking for this comment!
[deleted]
The inclusion of the biblical figure Belshazzar in the lower left indicates this is supposed to be Cyrus's conquest of Babylon. Assyrians were much earlier.
[deleted]
Perhaps you're confusing the Assyrians and Neo-Babylonians? Belshazzar was the son of the last Neo-Babylonian king.
[deleted]
Nah Nebuchadnezzar II's father Nabopolassar was of Chaldean ethnicity, which was a tribe that settled in southern Babylonia and assimilated into their culture. He was an official in the Assyrian Empire but they liked to use locals for that sort of thing. He declared independence in the confusion of an Assyrian civil war, then formed a coalition with most of Assyria's former subject nations which burned their capital Nineveh to the ground.
Assyrian and Babylonian are both offshoots of the older Akkadian culture so it can get pretty confusing.
Gilgamesh is unhappy about this turn of events, mongrel.
I guess this is the timeline where Merlin and Mash don't show up to help.
Ahhhh thank you! I saw this at the Smithsonian and was blown away by it, but I could never remember the name.
I'd try to explain it to people, and I just couldn't do it justice.
"It was, like, so epic, man."
edit: I LIED!
I didn't see this piece. Still, thanks OP for showing me the name of the artist
I agree things are looking bad, but I wish the artist had waited a few seconds before painting. That one girl in the bottom left is charging a hell of a counter attack.
KAAAAAA-MEEEEEEE
Looks like some 40k cover art.
Martins “Feast of Belshazzar” part of this same collection is one of my favorites. I have a framed copy in my house.
I thought it was the Denver airport for a sec
That's a lot of plate rocking.
City got conquered and lootet so often in its history, Hittites, Assyrians, Persians and Alex the great.
Who can tell in which era Babylon was at its best....
In case others miss the real Tower of Babel like I did on my first glance: I highlight it here.
Holy shit
John Martin is the Zack Snyder of the 19th century.
I cannot believe this is mezzotint! That takes inhuman precision, to be able to get such fine and detailed results. Absolutely brilliant, thank you for posting this!
O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
It's amazing an etching could have so much depth and emotion put into it. I'm not huge into art but I can damn sure appreciate something as amazing as this!
Ohh I recognized his style from a painting I saw in Boston called The Seventh Plague of Egypt https://www.climategate.nl/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Biblical-plagues.jpg
Anybody else see lizard boi in the center?
Babylon here looks exactly how I picture Tenochtitlan.
This is amazing. Anything more like this?
Now, who will pray for Babylon? Sing a song to Babylon! On your knees before Babylon Beat that drum, because Babylon is falling!
I like the representation of not only the Tower of Babel, but the Hanging Gardens as well. Just beautiful.
I read this as The Fall of Brooklyn and got a little confused! Then I looked thoroughly at this beautiful work of art and it clicked and I realized how silly I was and had a little chuckle.
You wuzn't dat far off. When O'Malley moved dem Bums to LA, dat's what Brooklyn looked like, from Flatbush all the way to Greenpernt.
It's ok, though. He's in a betta place now: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/John_Martin_Le_Pandemonium_Louvre.JPG
I love this style, will be looking into this artist👍🏿👀
Babylon song
All Along the Watch Tower by Bob Dylan is also inspired by the biblical description of the fall of Babylon.
Can someone show me some other paintings/drawings similar to this? I'm trying to draw a scene from inside a massive cave and the perspective is really difficult because there is no sky, but the clouds here mimic the walls in my mind a bit.
Is that the Tower of Babel hidden in the clouds in the background? If you zoom in next to the obvious tower in the background, on the right side of it there appears to be an even more massive structure further back covered in clouds.
It’s hard to tell though.
It is
I love the incorporation of Michaelangelos depiction of gods creation of man, used to instead show the destructive wrath of god against mankind.
imagine being rich and powerful back then.
That looks like the Tower of Babel in the far background.
Can someone explain to what Babylon exactly is
a citystate that existed in various forms for almost 1800 years 50 miles south of today's Bagdad. It was conquered and reconquered a dozen times by local and world powers at given times and is mentioned even in the bible, most notably for its "tower" (was actually a ziggurat). It was also home of at least one of the 7 world wonders "the hanging gardens".
There is no guidance in your kingdom Your wicked walk in Babylon There is no wisdom to your freedom The richest man in Babylon
Your beggars sleep outside your doorway Your prophets leave to wonder on You fall asleep at night with worry The saddest man in Babylon
The wicked stench of exploitation Hangs in the air and fingers on Beneath the praise and admiration The weakest man in Babylon
There is no hope left in your kingdom Your servants have burned all their songs Nobody here remembers freedom The richest man in Babylon
The lady in the bottom left of the frame is dabbing. You’re welcome.
The Tower of Babel back there almost completely engulfed in clouds and being ripped apart by lighting...epic
Does anyone else see Zeus' arm hurling the lightning or am I making things up?
That'd make an excellent Black Metal album cover.
An awesome painting.
John Martin loved a good apocalypse. The Tate has a page about his works featuring The Great Day of His Wrath which is absolutely epic and terrifying. Martin would have been a shoo-in to work at Industrial Light and Magic on a Michael Bay commission:
I didn't really look at the title before clicking this and just assumed it was some epic modern digital art. Crazy that this is a 100+ year old mezzotint
This painting has a futuristic sci-fi vibe to it. Maybe it's all the grand architecture, maybe it's the lightnings and the sky that look like some distant planet but this painting looks truly ahead of its time.
First I thought that's a giant cave. : D
Dab in the bottom left corner
Do you think that what might happen was them trying to build a tall building, because why not? Nobody build this tall and they want to be first and touch the skies but they build it with some problem or just used too much material and it didnt support itself (during the storm), therefore fall and people went crazy saying it was god being angry with them? That sounds super plausible. Not even that many people might think it was god, but then the word did spread and... that's what caught on.
Just another normal day for the Midwest Spring season.
Affter Cyrus the Great and the Persians conquered the city, they freed all the slaves and declared freedom of religion and racial equality. I believe it was the first recorded declaration of human rights, written on the Cyrus Cylinder.
He also ended the centuries long Babylonian Captivity of the Jewish people, and funded the construction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem, which led to Cyrus becoming the only non-Jewish Messiah (Maschiah = "Anointed by God") in the Hebrew Bible.
I swear I saw this same painting at the Boston museum of Fine Arts last year. I thought it was awesome, and couldn't stop looking at all the little details.
This was a realistic pictute
well that’s not something you see every day
Definitely a new favorite painting
If you haven't already, I highly recommend looking up John Martin on wiki, the man has the craziest story, so much going on. I'd love to see a film about him.
Idk... that giant W in the sky leads me to believe Wonder Woman is going to somehow save the day.
What an amazing time to live though!
Why dont we see more art like this!?
I wonder what ancient cities were truly like.
That is a mezzotint? Holy shit
Keep it up! This looks great!
Insane detail and command of values, especially for mezzontint.
Babylon is simply a metaphor from the Bible to explain how when hierarchies get too big, they fail. It isn't a literal interpretation. There was no "tower". It's a hierarchies metaphor.
Resembles The Seventh Plague of egypt https://www.mfa.org/collections/object/seventh-plague-of-egypt-33665 Are there anymore painting that uses similar composition and sky lighting like these?
That dirty, dirty Babylon. That's what you get.
The reflection in the water is my favorite part. It's a little off, not so much that it looks bad, but enough so it gives the piece a really dream-like feel. I think it's also hard to parse because it's hard to tell what is a boat on the water and what is a reflection. So gorgeous
I love paintings that stoke fear in the viewer
It’s just so fucking epic
Fuck yea, battle Elephants!
Can you imagine how crazy it must be to fight an Elephant trained for battle? Holy hell.
Thou that dwell on many waters, rich in treasure, wide in fame
Bow unto a god of gold, thy pride of might shall be thy shame
Oh God, the pride of man, broken in the dust again...
And then you realize what mezzotint is...
John Martin etched this thing with all its details into a thin piece of metal so it could be easily reproduced.
Bridge reflection in the river make it look like it is not a river but an endless pit with some mist.
Always entertaining how babylon looks roman.
His Pandemonium painting (in the Louvre) is also amazing
Was this originally in color? I'm looking to purchase this and I can't find this version anywhere.
Looks like Shao Kahn's breaking the rules of Mortal Kombat and invading with his outworld forces
Fallen fallen fallen is Babylon the great! https://youtu.be/321JxxzlGio (Aphrodite's Child song)
The moment i saw this i swear i heard Libera Me from Hell, like with the whole lightning thing and tower of Babylon and hurricane the opera came rushing back along with the Row Row Fight the Power!
God angry about 20 story building. Totally justified. Such thing just should not exist.
This would be right at home on a MTG card art
The fine details, the grandeur of it is awesome!
Tell him I'll meet him at Babylon and Ting.
All I was thinking was weezer should make the w bigger for there album
Christianity destroying yet another civilization.
Apparently, people took bricks from Babylon's walls for their own projects. The entire city was devolved into nothing but ruins.
Babylon didn’t really fall, it became poor and faded away.
The colours used for the storm make it look too futuristic, but I understand that it was meant to make the picture more dramatic (which it succeeded in), but maybe it should have been a little darker. It reminds me of a random robot apocalypse for some reason.
So they didn’t have these colours in the past?
Haha no, I didn't mean it in that way. It's just a weird 2119 feeling that combination of cloud colours makes me feel.
In 2119 I would imagine it would be far brighter with all the artificial light
Yes, but in the act of destroying a city a painting would be dark no matter what. It would have more light than this painting (which already has too much light as I mentioned before), but the darkness would be required to amplify the feeling of terror.
Alright, I see you point now :D
Great! Your argument made sense as well. Thank you for correcting me!
No it doesn't have too much light, you clearly have problems with your vision. Also, why the fuck does it matter if you get a 2119 feeling? Does that make it not art? does that ruin the picture? No, it doesn't. in fact, check out the original, and what the OP did, side by side.
original
op post
https://i.redd.it/v4mfwge34wi21.jpg
wow, look at that. The original is BRIGHTER than the op's post. HUH. I guess it doesn't have too much light after all, Professor Brainiac!
Jesus chill out dude
To bad my ancestors were too power hungry. We would of enslaved all you peons till this day.
What the fuck are you on about?
I was wondering what was going on, so, from the British Museum website:
Truly epic, and also terrifying.
Doesn't it seem a bit too Roman for that era?
[deleted]
[deleted]
It wasn’t that nobody cared, it was that the British, being the largest and wealthiest country on earth, could spare the resources to do so. Not all archaeologists from that period were British though. Heinrich Schliemann, the guy who discovered Troy, was German.
He also discovered Mycenae, including the Mask of Agamemnon, which is one of the most famous bronze age artifacts in the world. Mycenae was also a massive discovery for Greece Bronze age
FTFY
Yeah I was gonna say, didn't he blow it higher than Odysseus's tolerance for bullshit?
Fun question! The answer is that the even the British didn’t give much of a fuck about preservation, in the early days of archaeology! For all the stuff that the British preserved, they also destroyed or tossed out enormous amounts of evidence that modern archaeologists now wish they had access to. Most of the stuff in the Near East and Classical world was not considered important by the people who lived there - they had to make their livelihoods, they had to farm, they had to make their homes out of something, and doing it on top of old ruins was easy. Not to mention that old ruins are usually already in advantageous places, so it makes sense to keep living there. For a specific example, in the early days of Egyptian archaeology, British archaeologists (such as Petrie) were fighting a tide of native Egyptians who were digging up old ruins due to the ruins having been made out of mud brick, which also made great fertilizer. You can’t really fault the people who lived there, they had to farm and whatnot and they were using the materials easily available. The British (and other countries, although often the British) had a very imperialist motivation for doing archaeology in the early days, in that they were looking mostly for interesting Classical artifacts that would help to establish their sense of the world. There was an idea that civilization was born in the Fertile Crescent, and then migrated to Greece, and then to Rome, and then to England, thus making imperialism “okay”. I can recommend some interesting papers and articles if you’re interested in learning more on this topic as it’s one I’m very invested in!
[deleted]
Here is Bahrani’s article on the idea of Mesopotamia to get you started: http://readinglists.ucl.ac.uk/items/B8E40FD2-C024-AE2B-A25E-E74F29562C57.html I’m on a phone so not sure how to link it. It uses admittedly very convoluted language - don’t worry about “despotic time” or anything. It has its own fallacies but overall I think it’s super informative and a very good place to start. For Egypt I would like to link the Oxford Handbook of Papyrology, chapter 2 by Cuvigny (the Finds of Papyri: The Archaeology of Papyrology) but I am not sure how as it requires an academic subscription to access as far as I know. When I have time I may try to copy a relevant portion of the text later. Hope that helps!
Edit: Here is the link to the papyrology article
[deleted]
great username. how many more missions do we need to fly again?
What is despotic time? You’ve piqued my curiosity.
Despotic time is a quality that historians have tended to assign certain eras and civilizations (a "time of despots" might be another way to say it). It's a period in the history of certain civilizations that is identified as being decadent, unorganized, and uncivil in the way that we think of civil modern societies; by modern I mean not only 21st century, but also the Greeks and Romans, who had societal structures that are familiar to us today. The civilizations/societies that are labeled as having periods of despotic time are often Eastern ones (that's racism! fun!). Note that Bahrani isn't saying that despotic time is a real thing, but rather a framework that historians have tended to assign to eras in order to structure historical narrative in a way that is appealing. My apologies if this is an unclear or unsatisfying explanation because it's not something I'm particularly knowledgeable about; if you are curious about what Bahrani has to say, it is on pg 162-164 of her article.
That's great, thanks!
You can stop your personal guilt-trip now. Asking a question you think is controversial does not need to come with this much self-flagellation and prostrating to "correct thought". You're just asking a historical question, there's nothing wrong with that, and your assumption that the British have preserved a lot of historical artifacts isn't wrong. Reel it in! You can ask a question and not demand people change your mind on something just because your assumptions make you uncomfortable.
Hell that attitude happened even with the British on their own land.
Hadrian's wall is almost non existent because the stones were removed over time as people to them for building materials.
I think that happened all over the old Roman empire. We're lucky the Colosseum still stands.
It was stripped of its marble for construction though, IIRC specifically for the Basilica. Gladiators were a 'pagan' thing anyway, chariots were all the rage. The Pantheon got preserved, though, because it got turned into a church.
The Fertile Crescent cradle of civilization theory is what I was taught in high school in the 90s, but I no longer believe that idea.
What do you mean?
I believe people like Graham Hancock who say there was a global civilization on this planet that predates the Fertile Crescent "cradle of civilization". I think there's compelling evidence that sites like the Sphinx in Egypt are actually much older than previously thought not to mention the fact that there are even architectural similarities between the Pyramid of the Sun in the Americas and The Great Pyramid.
Yeah... Homo Sapien as a species spread far and wide way before any of the sites he studied came into existence.
Actually, modern Egyptology essentially begins with Napoleon's Egyptian expedition. So the French were clearly interested as well. If I recall correctly, many of the artifacts from that expedition (including the Rosetta Stone itself) were stolen and looted from the French, not the original owners.
Back then, archaeology was basically tomb robbing. Here's an interesting guy from that era who was Italian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Battista_Belzoni
As others have stated, people had more pertinent issues such as basic survival to even care about some old ruins.
In hindsight it is easy to judge earlier generations for common practices that we would regard as erroneous or immoral. Look at it this way, in 50 / 100 years time the next generations will never understand how our generations have largely sat back and destroyed ecosystems for ease of fossil fuel, large scale animal farming etc. A more pertinent issue for our time than preservation of ruins were for people a couple of hundred years ago and yet largely inaction.
It depends on the site. Some of the British discoveries left much to be desired in the way the items were cataloged. For instance, the work that was done in Nineveh in the 1850's where they simply labeled the items with a single letter to show they were from that site.
This library was an enormous trove of knowledge that predated and was said to have been the inspiration for Alexander and Ptolemy's famous library of Alexandria. Sure there was looting since the Medes and Persians took it down in 600 something BC. This guy Ashurbanipal was probably one of the first huge archaeologists or funders of archaeology. He was able to read and write in Sumerian, Akkadian and Aramaic. Also bragged about deciphering and being able to read something found from a pre-flood language.
When the temple/library were burned much of those items collapsed below, which if labeled properly may have given some easier semblance of how it might have looked 3000 years ago.
Now we'll have to guess about a lot of it.
Still the work done by sir Austen Henry Layard in that time period was leaps and bounds better than the French who were given rights over the parallel site yet let it sit for decades until the British snuck in and worked and found some artifacts where they ended up having to return them and then were given rights over that site as well.
I've read most of the comments following and I'll add a bit more to your understanding.
Modern Archaeology as a Science is actually not that old. It came out of the Renaissance and Enlightenment from historians interested in the non-written/non-recorded parts of history and certain collectors who would write histories of ancient civilizations. There were many books written about ancient and pre-writing civilizations but most of them were studies based on ancient writings and not on field work or science.
The Greeks, Romans, Mongols, Chinese and other large wealthy ancient civilizations all collected foreign statues, monuments and pieces of ancient empires as war trophies. As an example, Alexander took statues back to Greece after the fall of Persepolis and Egypt. They would be exhibited to the public as proof of the empire's greatness. The Aztecs also did this with lesser tribes it had conquered. Medieval England, Spain, Russia and France continued this taking of war trophies. Examples of this include 'The Stone of Scone' and the Scottish Crown taken by the English after Scotland's conquest in the 13th century. Also, many medieval kingdoms looted ancient religious artifacts during the crusades and brought them back to Europe.
The Muslim empires of the pre-colonial middle east did not recognize the greatness of the ancient cities around them due to the Islamic religion's belief that anything predating the prophet Mohammed was unimportant to the religion and symbols of ancient religions were erased from history. This didn't mean they were intentionally destroying Buddhist statues or Ancient cities like the Taliban or ISIS but it did mean that while Medieval France, England, Spain and Italy were trying to repair their Roman ruins as a symbol of their countries longevity, the Pyramids, Persepolis and Babylon were looted for their bricks and Constantinople was washed of it's Christian, Greek and Roman symbols. Knowledge on the other hand was preserved by the Muslims and much of what we know of ancient Greece and Rome actually comes to us from books preserved and translated in the Middle East while Christian Priests burned and destroyed anything seen as contradicting the Christian religion.
France was the true birthplace of Archaeology as a science and this predates even Napolean's conquest of Egypt and parts of the Middle East although his conquest opened up a whole Universe of study into ancient Egypt. His troops brought home ziggurats and placed them around France but they also brought back increasingly more important items to the science of Archaeology such as the Rosetta stone which opened up the study of hieroglyphs and ancient languages. France, England Spain, The Netherlands and Portugal were by far the richest empires in the world at this point due to their exploration and colonization of large parts of the new world and the far east and because of that they built museums and art galleries. It's not just British museums filled with ancient art and archaeological items. The Louvre's entire basement level is dedicated to ancient art and archaeological items.
Many large empires such as China, Germany, the Mongols and the Middle East have lost vast quantities of the ancient history of the lands they ruled. The Mongols through sheer destruction of cities. The Middle East through a religion that de-emphasized the past. China's destruction of it's ancient art and archaeology during the communist regime was truly devastating to it's architecture and history. The Nazi's destroyed much during WWII that wasn't seen as supporting Hitler's views on the German race. The British, Italians, Japanese and French never faced things such as this and because of that smaller pieces of their histories were there to fill out their story as a nation for good or bad.
The British in the Victorian era would host “mummy unwrapping parties.” I think it’s safe to say a lot of the British really didn’t give a ahit about historical preservation.
Dont forget they would snot mummy dust
I can believe it. There was a push recently for people to be able to drink sarcophagus juice which was actually sewage that got in.
Almost all of the territory in question was under Ottoman occupation and they gave no shits whatsoever
Hey man, it's ok to ask questions. Dont let society make you think everything thing is racist just because something potentially has racial context.
Firstly, facts aren't racist.
The British were certainly the only ones to both catalogue and value historical treasures.
There were also no "museums" to speak of. If certain treasures were found in countries where there were historical sites, then most likely they were just plundered by looters and tomb robbers. Certainly this was the case in Egypt.
Howard Carter's 1922 Expedition and discovery of Tutankhamun's tomb was critical because a) the tomb was unique in that it remained untouched (undiscovered) by looters, and b) that it contained many artifacts which served to educate many about Ancient Egypt.
So to answer your questions:
Why did no one but the British seem to care about preservation? Because different countries and different cultures value different things. For example, the French only wanted to conquer lots of land (Under Napoleon). And a particular Italian explorer only cared about treasure and gold, so he smashed the tops off all of the gorgeous pyramids in Meroe, Sudan.
So yes, lust for gold and land is more important to some than the preservation of history.
Did the British steal artifacts from museums? No.
Were the artifacts in the ground or laying around? Not exactly. Tomb raiders aren't archaeologists, and so if it can't be smashed down, or forced open with a crowbar, they're not going to bother digging for months to find things.
Why wasn't Egypt already excavating? Because the majority of the population of Egypt wasn't exactly "Egyptian" in the sense of being related to the historical Egypt of antiquity. There was no sense of being "connected" to that ancient culture. Islam spread into Egypt long after the Ptolemies were gone, so the last of the "True" Egyptians were gone with the rise of Rome. Say hello to Islam in 600 AD, and with the Roman Empire being gone, Egypt turns Muslim, and the culture shifts permanently.
Should also point out that ~500 years of Christianity prior to the Muslim conquests also served to distance Egyptians from their pagan roots. Roman paganism was more compatible with the Egyptian religion, specifically I know Osiris was considered a form of Dionysus.
All of the comments say good things but another reason was around this time period they were trying to prove a lot of the old testament stories so they tried to dig up as much proof as possible.
If you actually come down to England and look at ruins of Roman forts and Hadrian's wall and such, you'll find that we didn't give much of a shit about it back in the day either.
When you're living day by date, preservation is not a priority, not when you can use ruins to build what you need to get by.
That said it's still well worth checking out if you ever get the chance.
Never saw it that way, cool story.
That's 10000000000% false that they "care about preservation" in general. https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/fire-ravages-library-of-congress
To localize it to those places and that era, the preservation of other cultures' history and art laid firmly in the beliefs of the attackers. For example, in the Crusades it was common to specifically raze and burn any of the "heathen" artifacts / texts of those cultures.
Makes sense, right: your leader is Godly and some other culture has all sorts of blasphemy claiming that God doesn't give us air to breathe, but plants and water do... burn that shit!
Likewise in the article above, nothing better to burn than the Library of Congress when you're trying to suppress the establishment of a breakaway colony.
You're literally not even discussing races per se, you're discussing the nation of Britain
I think the fact that British archeologists got local guides to the pyramids says a lot. People around definitely knew a little about ancient tombs and stuff (especially since ALL of them had been ransacked before any brits got there) but when Brits came in and saw that bullshit they were absolutely blown away.
Also, the way history and archeology was practiced back in the day was extremely destructive. In fact, the level of ignorance at which people acted is sometimes more impressive than their scholarly pursuits.
The guy who discovered Troy, mentioned in other comments, thought that the city would be older and it was. So while looking for his Troy he blasted through like 7 layers of ancient cities like with dynamite. It turns out the historical Troy was probably city level 5 or something and the guy just blew a whole bunch of it up.
can you tell me more about it, or what can i search to read, this just turned up some arctic expedition
https://history-podcasts.com/the-ancient-world
Specifically the "R" series. (Rediscovery) R3, R4, R5 are the ones specifically about that time period.
Easily my favourite podcast.
If you're looking for reading material, look up Henry Creswicke Rawlinson, Paul-Emile Botta,
The Romantic painters basically considered everything depicted as pre-Medieval to have a Roman/Greek aesthetic. It was shorthand for saying something was "ancient."
One of many many symbols buried in paintings like this, that people of the day would have read more easily.
could medieval armies have beaten roman/greek armies? I feel like maybe the only tech difference was....the knight? lets say 500 AD romans vs 1000 AD medieval
Ancient armies were larger and more advanced.
How much do you think people knew about the Achaemenid, or Neo Babylonian empires in the 1850s?
~539ad was the fall of Babylon.
Edit- Sheesh.. the ability to type ad and bc when you've studied history your whole life with out having coffee is impossible, ty.
*BCE
I can see why it may seem out of place, but funnily this painting was likely seen as only a little outmoded in it's time. Many "historical" painters were influenced by the rise of Neo-Classicism in Paris. Going back to Greek and Roman influences was a way of fighting for enlightenment ideals, a movement that Jacques Louis David used to profound effect in paintings like The Oath of the Horatii , a sort of call to arms for the French revolution. Martin no doubt knew of this legacy but was likely mixing some of that political influence with the larger themes of romanticism and the sublime. Personally I see him as a bridge between that earlier time and the impressionist paintings of Turner. While the motivations of the paintings themselves are fairly distinct the scale and movement imply more than a passing connection. If you're interested in him there was also an American Painter Thomas Cole who followed his work closely, and had significant influence. He's probably best known for his 5 part series of paintings The Course of an Empire.
Neoclassical art usually depicts Roman or Greek figures, regardless of the piece's setting
I believe that would be the Neoclassical Style in vogue at the time -- Classical -> Greco/Roman feel and monumentality of figure and architecture etc. to evoke historical periods etc. combined with their more limited knowledge of relevant archeological data etc at the time
Seems a bit too Victorian to me.
That's the tower of Babel? Crazy that art depicting a building so tall it was an affront to god still thinks, "yeah, 15 floors is probably enough".
EDIT: whoops! I missed it, but Babel is in the clouds, center of the image and kinda swirly. I guess the squareish building is just some run of the mill ziggurat.
In case others miss the real Tower of Babel like we did on our first glances: I highlight it here.
Okay that is fucking cool as heck
I missed it at first glance and was about to say "Isn't the 'squared pyramid' ziggurat supposed to be the Hanging Gardens of Babylon?"
Could be! I always imagined it covered in greenery and aquaducts though.
I think it may be this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etemenanki
Think you might be right. I would think the artist would have put plants on there if it was the Hanging Gardens... but I’m just speculating.
Interesting... wonder if that’s true.
I think the gardens are at the bottom right in this depiction.
You can see to the right in the foreground what could be the Hanging Gardens. Archers are firing down on the crowds while women wail while running from the gardens.
Edit: Oops, u/-Hastis- already mentioned it.
In case others miss the real Tower of Babel like I did on my first glance: I highlight it here.
that snake statue, was it real?
or is that just a metaphorical addition by the artist on top of a column? (you can see the one right next to it was broken)