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r/ProgrammerHumoru/geekrohan (92782)

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Data engineer be like "Im gonna push a massive amount of fake data about myself to make my own program produce wrong profiling about me"

Someone should make a browser extension who's sole purpose is to fuck up data collection by Facebook / Google / Amazon

https://noiszy.com

Edit: I have no affiliation with, nor do I vouch for its legitimacy. I saw it pop up on HN or something and bookmarked it for later. The comment I responded to reminded me of it. That's all.

Why do these cool little "privacy" extensions and apps always have some super professional website that makes it look like a billion dollar Silicon Valley startup?

I only trust github links and shitty HTML4 blogs. This looks too nice, why's it look so nice? Why is there a picture of a surfer dude?!

Because making a bootstrap website is super easy, and you don't even need to know much CSS or HTML or JavaScript to make it happen. Someone who is capable of programming a browser extension is likely to be capable of putting a template website together and filling it with some free/cheap stock imagery.

I'm sick of bootstrap

Velcroshoe then

... Is this real? Off t Google I go!

Edit. It is not

That was a short trip.

Leave the gun, take the canoli

r/unexpectedgodfather ?

Who is Tim and why do you want to woo him?

Give it a week. It will be the next hot JS library.

There is however a velcro.js. Because of course there is.

Note: I do not vouch for the above package and it's probably got some malware somewhere in its 73 dependencies.

I like your energy fren

Thanks for the update. Seriously.

You know there are too many rubbish templates and frameworks when you have to ask if "Velcroshoe" is real.

IT'S FUCKING HOOK AND LOOP

THIS IS A HOOK

Dean Kamen wants to know your location

Excuse you, hook and loop

I hope you're proud of yourself /u/mortiphago. Someone just saw your post and is making a new Javascript framework called Velcroshoe because of your comment. The world knows we desperately need a new front-end js framework.

Pick yourself up by your csstraps!

If I ever type 'col-' again, it will be too soon.

[deleted]

Probably because he's used it

What do you mean you don't want to replace inline css with in-a-different-part-of-the-line css?

inline css

Go away, heretic.

Exactly! Inline CSS sucks and bootstrap is basically that.

As opposed to coming up with your own class names that you’ll never remember what they do or creating css selector chains that break as soon as I move something. I’ll take the bootstrap markup lol

Those are all non-issues if you have an element inspector, the basic skill of file searching, and some moderate understanding of modularization. If anything bootstrap makes those things less easily usable.

That’s just plain wrong lmao you can definitely argue that homebrewing will be more creative than bootstrap but if you pass another developer your home brewed CSS versus a framework like Bootstrap or Bulma, and many will hand it right back to you because it’s worthless. I’d spend more time trying to learn your rules and hope they make any modicum of sense than I would to just rewrite the whole thing in a framework.

I don’t want to be control Fing and F12ing to find out why the flex box isn’t behaving as I expect. I know exactly how I can expect every bootstrap markup to behave.

Differences of experience and setups, I suppose. Everyone who's resistant ends up happy when I replace their bootstrap mess of overrides and 6 class html elements with a few hundred lines of digestible sass. I've been in it for about 10 years, so maybe my organization is modularized with a bit more contextual forethought to prevent the confusions you experience.

Same here. If I handcraft it, I can build whole websites with less than 500 CSS rules. Bootstrap alone has 3000, so without your own overrides. Semantic HTML and CSS class names (no "col3" and stuff) is all I need. CSS has never been a bottleneck in my experience.

The whole col system is a disaster to readability. Basically defining responsiveness in html, and then if something doesn't fit into one of the 3 breakpoints, then you have your breakpoints being defined in multiple places for the same element. Talk about frustrating; If you've ever tried debugging edge cases born from col mixed with any moderately complex responsive flows, the maintainability of bootstrap's intended simplicity deteriorates quickly.

Like with all highly opinionated frameworks: my way or the highway.

Homogenization.

It isn't bootstrap that is the actual problem. It is the people who use it. Every website starts to look the same.

That's how you get startup money.

Why are you people so weird? People want shit to look the same and act like they expect it too.

That's why every iPhone app has a back button in the same place.

If you make a project for developers or to impress developers, you're going to have a very niche product, which probably isn't what you want. You probably want a lot of people to use your product. So stop making shit YOU want and start making what most people want.

I'll take my downvotes for speaking the truth.

So stop making shit YOU want and start making what most people want.

What the hell are you talking about? I don't do front end.

In this scenario, I am the customer and I don't want to use the same fucking website everywhere I go.

The fact you know these sites use bootstrap means you're not the average customer.

Knowing it uses bootstrap is entirely irrelevant. Bootstrap is fine, but the same style is overused.

If you had to ask "average" customer, "Do you want every website you use to look the same?" They would say "no".

No, they don't say that. Big companies pay a lot of money doing these studies and customers overwhelmingly want everything to look and work the way they're used to it working.

Why do you think Snapchat/Facebook gets shit everytime they change the UI?

No, they don't say that. Big companies pay a lot of money doing these studies and customers overwhelmingly want everything to look and work the way they're used to it working.

Why do you think Snapchat/Facebook gets shit everytime they change the UI?

It seems like you just contradicted yourself? You said they spend big money to find out what customers like, but then they release stuff people don't want? Do you think they are just ignoring all that research they spent big money on? If everyone wanted everything to look the same, why doesn't every major companies' websites look the same. (Before you bring up apps again, the UI is determined a lot by the limitations of a mobile device)

The reason people get mad is because they don't like change, regardless of whether the end result is actually better.

And big companies don't use a simple bootstrap website. It is small companies that hire out to smaller contractors that just want a quick clean looking website because it is fast and cheap.

What?!

The customers WANT all these sites to look the same. Why aren't you understanding something so simple?

Big companies might not use bootstrap, but they all make the same landing page. You know, with a big full width stock image, followed by the three columns with key points about the product.

Most sites follow that design because it works. They A-B test the shit out of many designs and that's the one that performs best. I used to do web design for an advertising company. The generic sites work the best for user retention and click through rate. Yeah, they aren't works of art, but they work, and that's all that matters.

I can fully agree with you but as a backend dev it makes me a way easier to implement a template and change title's on my own projects.

But you do. Because then every website can be intuitive because you already learned how to navigate it with every other website you've used.

Plus then less development time is wasted on the front end.

Plus that makes it easier to compare website by their product/service rather than who had the most time to sink into UI.

Maybe you dont care about any of that, but that is a pretty significant list of benefits to weigh your (seemingly arbitrary) preference against.

Lolreasons.

Bootstrap is awesome.

[deleted]

There are other frameworks out there, I happen to also like Bulma.

[deleted]

Yep the grid is a lifesaver. Modals are pretty nice too.

Yeah, she's hot

It's great to work with but I'm pretty sick of looking at it.

Maybe for us, as developers. It's fucking horrible and not professional otherwise: half of the internet has a default bootstrap look nowadays. I use it for all my admin dashboards whenever I want one, but I never use it for frontend stuff, i use bulma.io atm for that.

i use bulma.io atm for that.

Until it's use rate starts ticking up? 😁😁😁

It's a lot more minimalist which I totally appreciate

True. I like using it cause it seems like it was built with lots of the bootstrap frustrations in mind, things are more verbose and plainly obvious. There are some issues however. For example right now I am trying to get full height columns to work correctly.

If a website like that is associated with a product I'm not familiar with, I assume the product is some stupid nonsense like that juicerio bullshit. The website just screams "fake" to me.

that applies to all sites that look extremely templatey to me.

Huge bloat for 99% of uses and messy html of what are glorified inline styles. CSS really isn't that hard these days, the need for it has passed IMO if you have someone with any front end web experience. I get off on replacing bootstrap implementations with a couple hundred lines. I understand why people use it, but just about everybody I've worked with who was resistant to ditching it was happier with some well modularized sass catered to their specific needs. Also it looks like everything that I hate without droves of overrides anyway.

Because it's too easy to make stuff with bootstrap, now it feels overused. Too many websites reuse the same layout over and over again. Design consistency is nice but I think there needs to be more variety.

That has nothing to do with bootstrap and more to do with people putting zero thought and effort into their website. Without bootstrap they’d all just look like the next easiest way to build a website.

You're right, it's not bootstrap's fault. Back then we'd probably associate barebones, unstyled HTML with laziness, but now people like to see pretty websites so the lazy devs move over to the next easiest thing to make, which is using pre-made bootstrap templates.

Now I'm not against bootstrap or anything. In fact I use it in some of my websites since it's easy to implement, but after a while it's going to get boring seeing the same layout and color scheme everywhere.

I didn’t realize what sub I was on. I’m not a developer/programmer, I just made a website for a friends business with bootstrap lol. It was really nice to use and I didn’t need a template or anything. Honestly it went so smoothly that I got really interested but Learning things like JavaScript kind of kept me away.

Half of the internet uses it, all websites look the same.

Use grid then my dude/dudette

https://bulma.io

https://foundation.zurb.com/

Row

Col-lg-3 col-md-4 col-sm-6 mb-1 text-info

But why

http://adventurega.me/bootstrap/

Right? All I use it for is columns on most websites now.

Careful what you wish for. You can take my stable BS 3.3.7 design from my cold dead hands

It served a purpose at the time. With grid and flex, it's much less necessary.

I migrated grom bootstrap as a noob to Bulma.io for professional stuff.

Velcroshoe may not be real, but alternatives like Bootflat and foundation are.

Semantic-UI

What's your opinion on material design?

Actually quite like material design when done right.

that being said I have been going through my old projects and I did in app Full material to the T and I hate it now.

Tachyons my dude

So use semantic?

Have you considered using the jacknife or subsampling instead?

I only trust Bootstrap 3 sites with the default theme.

Anyone with a minor knowledge of bootstrap could be blasted and still make a decent looking website.

Actually feel lucky for such a free tool.

Chrome extensions are just html, css and js

To be fair their page is a SquareSpace site so it's basically WYSIWYG but I'm with you. Packaged executable on a professional-looking site? No thanks. Random .ps1 file on a GitHub page? Sure, run that shit as administrator.

Looks, when it comes from GitHub, the source code is right there, so you can skim it and know it's a safe to run thing, or someone, else, probably, has maybe skimmed it, hopefully.

or someone, else, probably, has maybe skimmed it, hopefully.

You know me too well... Have you been watching my browser data?

Exactly my thoughts every time I discover a new GitHub project. But I still download and run that shit anyway!

Lol.

It's opensource my dude https://github.com/noiszy/noiszy/

I was just making a joke about how everyone assumes Open Source = Secure because surely someone (else) audited the code.

If I had the means, I would almost be tempted to put some (harmless) malware into some open source project, get it to be semi popular, and see how long it takes for someone to actually find it. Sort of a Where's Waldo game.

I suppose you could sort of get the same effect by putting a note in the code saying something like "Just wondering if anyone reads the code, email me if you did".

I agree btw.

In this case it's literally 3 js files, each 100 lines long. Checked it out during my commute.

Your comment reminded me of this excellent blog post from a year ago.

I remember something similar was done a few years ago on a company's terms and conditions. I think they actually offered cash

If you're reading this use READTHECODE to save on squarespace

get it to be semi popular

There's the primary challenge...

Somebody might scroll by that and email you, but also scroll past actual malware. I mean, we're not only assuming that people audit the code, but that they're able to understand and spot potentially obfuscated, possibly unprecedented exploits.

Like this?

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/11/hacker-backdoors-widely-used-open-source-software-to-steal-bitcoin/

The malicious code was inserted in two stages into event-stream, a code library with 2 million downloads that’s used by Fortune 500 companies and small startups alike.

Oh boy....There is a bug in a specific, widely-used Open Source project that is permanently flagged can't fix because two dudes got into a flame war on USENET, and one of them slipped in said bug to the other's project over the course of an entire year. This bug is so deep it's at kernel level access to the hardware. I won't say which software it is, but it has absolutely caused issues over the years.

ew, he leaves commented code around, some bad code anyway.

someone, else, probably, has maybe skimmed it, hopefully.

“OpenSSL is secure, right?”

"It's open source, which means somebody read it to make sure it was safe" - Everybody ever

Meanwhile the poor guy who developed it doesn't even really know what's going on because he used 50 libraries that he didn't read the documentation for.

When you find that guy, ask him if he actually checks md5 hashes too

Yeah, I usually skim projects to see if I can contribute. By that time I can already see 4-5 people already poking around. Also Sometimes you run into funny shit.

Sure, run that shit as administrator.

Copy a cryptic command string and slap a sudo in front of it.

Get out of my head.

https://github.com/noiszy/noiszy

It's open source.

That is some horrible JS if I ever saw it.

Also, two lines in

// it's persistent, so it will only happne once

Clearly unusable!

[deleted]

Requested to fork it so that we can fix the spelling error in the comments - hopefully nobody steals my work.

As if there is an alternative...

This is a classic situation just like NPM, though. No one is forcing them to upload the same source to GitHub - they could have a totally altered app in the browser extension stores.

Then build it from source and run a checksum verification.

Ugh

Ikr

Ayy, finally spotted one in the wild.

/r/beetlejuicing

Cut me out of the screenshot. That'll fuck with 'em.

Username checks out

As someone new to programming, thanks for pointing this out!

If you're dedicated... Yes.

That probably won't work. Recompiling the same code on different machines is unlikely to yield the exact same binary data.

On the same kernel, with the same build tools, linking against the same libraries, with the same flags, if you don't get the same output your compiler is doing something completely non-deterministic and you should be wary. Otherwise you could compile the same program twice and get different binaries on the same machine.

Oh of course. If everything's the same then there's no reason for the compiler to be nondeterministic. However, exactly recreating the development environment on your own machine is unlikely.

If they dont provide you that information, the pre-built binary should be considered closed source and proprietary. Honestly even the kernel shouldn't matter if you're targeting the same ELF. The same build tools, targeting the same platform should really be enough.

Just verify that it doesn't do anything fishy in the open source version, compile that from source, and use it instead of the app store version.

Or build it from source and sideload it, if you have an operating system that lets you actually control the devices you think you own.

Does such a thing need to be written in JS to be used? Could one write a similar plugin for w3m to scramble your footprint?

In this case, it's a Squarespace template.

This video was brought to you by squarespace

Build it beautiful

Create professionally looking websites with 10% off on squarespace.com/cooptional

Why even spend $9.95 per month on that crap when you can buy a .com domain for $10 per year and github.io hosts for free???

Damn. That's awesome.

Looks like a squarespace site
Mailing list thing is a dead giveaway

I know what you mean. Us programmers have absolutely no artistic skills whatsoever. If I didn't follow the designs provided by my clients, every page I made would look like garbage.

This means that there was a designer involved, so whomever made it, must be paid off by some big shady corporation. /s

No, but really, I fucking suck at anything artistic, no idea if that's true for most programmers too.

Well, I can provide a second example of "programmers who can't art their way out of a paper bag".

I fucking suck at anything artistic, no idea if that's true for most programmers too.

I'm one of the rare ones who studies both art and cs (though I'm more bsckend ironically enough). What I've learned is that companies don't realize how powerful that combination is until it's in their hands.

At my last company I was both programmer and designer

I'm a programmer and an amateur writer. Basically, I have a multiclass level in 'art'

I have some sense of artistic things (i used to be musician) but, making my pages look good it's almost impossible for me.

I think is true for most programmers, we just suck at design.

You don't need to be a billion dollar company to use a template, or be good at web design

Because it is a data collection app in itself.

The irony of people in this thread blindly installing this as some sort of fuck you to the man is hilarious.

https://noiszy.com/privacy/

Are you sure?

[deleted]

https://github.com/noiszy/noiszy

Updated 2 years ago though.

[deleted]

So you're telling me that, as far as Google is concerned, "the problem has been taken care of".

Bet you five bucks Facebook hired the programmer 2 years ago. If you can't sue em, buy em.

Yes, it says "we will never sell or give away your info."

That means:

  1. They have your info
  2. They have an agreement to distribute/use your info in a way that cannot be described as selling or giving. Perhaps "providing" to gov't agencies or something lol

Or it simply means they can access your information like any browser extension can, but they're also promising not to do anything nefarious with it.

That's like complaining that an add-on wich deletes your browers history after x days needs access to your browser history.

Or people who panic because Google knows and manages your Gmail emails

well duh

plus noisy is open source and you can easily compile it yourself

Not saying you're wrong, but I think us readers would like confirmation on that claim.

It's true (to an extent), the code literally has Google Analytics in it, which is absolutely hilarious.

Also in the privacy policy linked above:

For now, we're tracking the URLs of the pages Noiszy initiates. This helps us ensure that we're not accidentally clicking malicious links.

So they're tracking the URLs linked on every page you visit.

You're losing me at the end. In the quote you say pages Noiszy initiates. You're missing a step where that means they track every URL linked on every page you visit. It may be true, but that's not enough information to figure it out.

If you look at the code, by "initiates" it means the links it randomly clicks on pages to create "noise." Once they have one URL, in most cases it would be a simple Google search to find what page you were browsing.

It is likely some sort of click bot where they are getting the ad revenue of your "visits" to other site. See earlier posts about not trusting anything built by software engineers.

Idea. Download the code from github, remove the GA tags, install the clean extension. The code is not that bad, so is easy to do it.

Cause my school taught me html and css in. A week and it’s not hard to download a bootstrap template and fil in the divs

You sound like such a douche bag.

That surfer dude is Mick Fanning btw

Because those types of websites take all of five minutes to set up.

https://github.com/noiszy/noiszy

"professional templates" are very easy to find now a days.

It's also open source which makes it OK on my book.

FUCK STICKY HEADERS!!! So worthless

Blame squarespace. Their ads are in every fucking podcast I listen to.

On the plus side, The Adventure Zone can't profile me.

Why do these cool little "privacy" extensions and apps always have some super professional website that makes it look like a billion dollar Silicon Valley startup?

Because those sites are super ridiculously easy to make lol.

Wordpress + some modern theme and you can make a basic site in an hour or two.

That's like a 30 minute wordpress site

It's a static page builder, companies just got pretty good at making drag and drop builders with 25 years of iterations on print layout software.

If it's not html1 it's not real html.

The surfer dude is there to show all the footprints in the sand making him impossible to follow.

Someone who makes a tool like that is probably capable of making a nice site. Web dev is piss easy.

Not to mention they ask you for your personal information.

That's SquareSpace for you. This is one of their themes. You'll notice a lot of these 'clean' websites look alike because they use the same service.

https://cs.nyu.edu/trackmenot/

Interesting point you raise. I decided to poke around and found the GitHub source for the extension, and the first piece of code is literally the Google Analytics boilerplate. Didn’t bother reading further since I’m on mobile, but I think I’ll pass on this extension.

That much is intentional, it's giving Google Analytics bogus info to "add noise" to the data they collect on you.

// track in GA when this page is created

Ahh I see, that makes sense.

Here you go http://makeinternetnoise.com

I love the comment at the top of the hackernews page THEIR OWN SITE LINKS TO:

There have been a few of these plugins floating around recently, and really everything that needs said about them appears in the comments already. Fake traffic is wasteful, hard to make look authentic, and only serves to create more records of the end user around the web rather than less (e.g. your laptop IP was generating fake traffic? That probably means you had the lid open and were doing something with it at that time)

That's like one of the most basic sites...

a first year could make that site dude

Adversary: "Oh, I recognize these weird data values. This user agent is one of the 14 people who use noiszy. That demograph really enjoys gadgets from Thinkgeek".

That and government conspiracy books.

what's the word for the kind of paranoid i am where i don't think the government is watching me yet but they might want to in the future and i should work to anticipate that, but am too lazy to ultimately and just am glib about it in conversation?

the word for that is me too, apparently

if i make jokes about it can that eventually be used as evidence against me in a court of law

Pretty much everyone I think.

I don't think the government is watching me but to think they cannot is ridiculous at this point, yet like you said I'm too lazy to really do anything about it.

Almost choked on my food. brilliant

[deleted]

Sites like this are the ones I trust

[deleted]

The data is still here for sure, but the point is to make collecting your data slightly harder than collecting your neighbors’ With the amount of free data around, chances are most data scientists would just discard your data as noisy mess not worth anyone’s time. If everyone uses it though, then it’s worthy to crack again

This is not how it works.

  • First of all, some random websites wont do the damage you expect. Its not like you will be able to hide your facebook acc, your friends, your location, your mail, etc. If you visit reddit every day, it will still be your most visited website way ahead of that random noise;

  • They are still interested to collect your data as correct as possible, because collecting it less correct means their data analyzing as a whole will be less effective. Its not the same as with having a better lock on your door;

  • "With the amount of free data around" is wrong. There is much less free data around than there is the ability to grab it. The burglar may have no time for you, when there are 20 easier picks, but the modern hardware definitely has time for your data;

  • Modern data collecting is strongly based on self-learning. Even if real humans arent interested, the software itself will make some adaptations.

While I agree that the general information will be preserved (but you can still pollute Facebook and amazon data collection, as evident by the random recommendations I get when using those) and that you’d need to be a lot smarter to trick most services, this is still good enough for a lot of services like ISP monitoring.

I think you’re overestimating the value of your data. It’s not about hackers, it’s about giant companies retrieving data from your browsing sessions. There is a lot of users so they won’t care enough about you to go the extra mile. I know this as a fact because I am a data scientist. When you have a noisy source of data, most of the time if you can afford it you either discard it pr completely ignore it and treat it like any other one. In our case of data jamming, there is every chances your jammed data is not segregated, thus our scheme still has value.

You misunderstand what « self learning » means. I assume you are referring to Machine learning. First of all, it’s not data collection that « « « learns » » », it’s feature extraction : the process of extracting information from data (and then making some decisions).

Secondly, most of « learned » algorithms do not learn in production, bit rather get retrained by a human from time to time. This allows them to be resistant to an learning attack. One example of such attack is Microsoft Tay twitter bot which became nazi in a few hours learning from trolls.

Last point and most important one, learning is actually statistical inference. The key word being statistical. Your algorithms learn from the behavior of most of the data. If you have one in a million datapoint that is noisy enough to behave differently than the average, the algorithm wont be able to learn from it. Without human intervention, your noisy data will be treated like clean data, which gives you a relative protection against extraction. They will need to retrain the algorithm taking jamming into account to gather your data. It’s not worth their time.

So yes this scheme is simple and not very effective, but it’s still a step in the right direction. If you want to see what else is possible, I advise you to read on Adversarial attacks. The idea of jamming is real and effective. Apple released a patent in which they describe a jamming scheme that simulate user activity. This way, any outsider would in theory not be able to distinguish your data from the 20 fake generated profiles

[deleted]

It doesnt work tho. Its relatively easy to differentiate your real browsing from such noise.

Looks like it got the good ol' reddit hug of death

I will copy and paste a Twitter text that u/dhshawon copy and pasted on another thread regarding this extension.

This doesn't make any difference. I'll copy paste from a Twitter thread from an anonymity and privacy researcher I saw earlier:

This will not work. Individual obfuscation tools do not work. Humans are terrible at leaving patterns. For the love of bandwidth, no. This is the internet equivalent of spouting random false facts about yourself instead of carefully crafted and rehearsed cover story.

Noise is trivial to filter out of datasetes. Consistent visits, or visits to sites that are consistent with a profile are hard to hide. You can visit 10,000 random sites, but if at 11pm every evening point your browser at pornhub and start a stream...well, yup.

Theoretically an app could generate good legends - that would simulate a history to hide in - but you are still associating real traffic. And thus, that traffic is still profileable - and any algorithm to generate fake legends can likely be reversed to filter them out.

Only an anonymizing network like Tor, where your traffic is mixed with others can provide adequate cover from a passive observer. So please stop with this generating fake traffic bullshit. It's a nice idea but It doesn't work. It can't work. Sorry.

TL;DR: They can still filter out the noise and find patterns.

Thanks! I’d like to add this NYT article I came across recently. It shows that companies specialized in tracking can look at patterns and piece in anonymized data to still track you. You might think that these apps collect so many millions of location data every second that its going to be impossible to pick out your specific location information. You’d be wrong.

Businesses say their interest is in the patterns, not the identities, that the data reveals about consumers. They note that the information apps collect is tied not to someone’s name or phone number but to a unique ID. But those with access to the raw data — including employees or clients — could still identify a person without consent. They could follow someone they knew, by pinpointing a phone that regularly spent time at that person’s home address. Or, working in reverse, they could attach a name to an anonymous dot, by seeing where the device spent nights and using public records to figure out who lived there.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/12/10/business/location-data-privacy-apps.html

I find it ironic that the company against data tracking is asking for my personal information. If it's free, you're the product.

If it's free, you're the product.

STOP. No, thats not necessarily true.

There are legitimate free software that doesnt make you in to the product.

I'm so fucking tired of reading this, because its not explained correctly and it implies that every free service make you the product.

It can be true for most commercial free software, or freeware (like Discord, facebook, twitter etc), but its not true for non-commerical and/or non-profit free software (often FOSS).

This is highly misleading for non-techies and I'm tired of my family telling me that "Oh, you didnt pay for your operating system? Guess you're the product then" with a shit eating grin on their face.

Dont get me wrong, its a good saying (if used right) that is easy to comprehend, but it hurts legitimate free products if used wrong.

In this case tho, you probably are the product, I havent checked it out.

"You paid for your windows OS? guess you're the product then"

its okay I dont have anything to hide.

Hey what are you doing looking through my facebook messages?

it's really alarming how fast the mentality on privacy shifted, when we had IT at school we were always told to not share private information on the internet

its okay I dont have anything to hide.

it seems like nobody cares about privacy today. Especially since a lot of people share everything about them on social media and if you point it out they tell you exactly this

it seems like nobody cares about privacy today.

My spin on it is that they dont understand it. As in, they dont understand why they have something to hide.

None of the people who say they have nothing to hide have given me their facebook archive, even though it is a chance (maybe a miniscule one) that big archives might be leaked on the internet in the future.

They simply dont understand the complexity of it or have never been exposed to it. Pretty sure no one would like to be doxxed.

Not sharing private info was the advice given by old people afraid of (or too lazy to) change when the internet was scary and new to them. Now it's not scary and new anymore, and companies exist that make it easier to share private info than to avoid sharing it. The new thing they'd have to learn is how to protect their privacy, so out of laziness towards learning new things they stopped caring.

Though TBH, it's not really the targeted ads that bother me so much regarding privacy. It's more the fact that it's so easy to correlate all this info about me without me realizing it that I find disconcerting. If I knew for a fact that the full extent of how anyone will ever use this is just to make the ads I see actually relevant to my interests I'd be less unnerved by it.

Not sharing private info was the advice given by old people afraid of (or too lazy to) change when the internet was scary and new to them.

I disagree, you're sharing sensitive information with unknown people who can use this against you (stalking, identity-theft, harassment etc.) Not doing this is rational reaction towards doing something with very high risk of abuse and very little benefit (for average person, It's different for internet personalities who built their living on their internet persona. The risks still apply though)

Are ads even useful for the users?

They're safety concern, they're annoying and obstructive and waste users time. Not using adblock means that people support this system and thus support the data-gathering done by all these companies. Targeted ads are useless feature of a more nefarious system used by them, it's used to hide behind their immoral behavior of spying on you.

If I want to buy something I'm gonna search for it and research it, I'd never click on a ad anywhere on the internet.

Stalking harassment and Identity theft aren't 'very high risk of abuse' outside of public political involvement it's not THAT common. And most data collected cannot go to people to do those thing. That's usually data offered up voluntarily on social media.

No shit ads are a waste of your time, they're to sell you things. Targeted ads are the GOAL of those 'nefarious' systems. You sound like a conspiracy theorist.

Companies want to reach customers and ads do that, at least for the people not using ad-block. Mostly people over 40, but people.

I didn't mean to imply that there wasn't risk or the advice not to share was bad, just my hypothesis as to why the same generation that used to be super paranoid about hackers and viruses and the internet in general now just blasts personal info out publicly on facebook. Their previous attitude, while correct in the general principle of not sharing private info, came out of fear of the unknown rather than actual risk assessment. Now that it's not new and scary to them, they share private info too easily because though it has become familiar, they still don't really understand it.

my apologies then, I misunderstood your comment

No, re-reading it I definitely see how I didn't really emphasize at all that this was not my opinion but that of the people who bafflingly used to be crazy paranoid about any program or technology their kids used (for example, my aunt and uncle wouldn't get wifi for the longest time - pretty much until they got smartphones - because they wanted to be able to pull the cord out of the computer if they were getting hacked - as though they'd even know if that was happening) exposing them to hackers but now just publicly blast private info all over social media (these same relatives now post basically every aspect of their lives on facebook with privacy settings set to letting everyone and their dog see it).

it's really alarming how fast the mentality on privacy shifted, when we had IT at school we were always told to not share private information on the internet

Oh great. Now I want to "kids these days" the people "kids these days"ing.

What? You were taught about internet safety like that in school because you were kids who didn't know what they were doing and there are people that could abduct you if they knew where you lived. That sort of thing is much less of a concern the older you get.

its okay I dont have anything to hide.

When someone says this, I ask to look through their phone. Strangely, they always say no...

but it's not true for non-commerical and/or non-profit free software (often FOSS)

I spend a lot of time in the various 3D printing communities, and pretty much the only non-open source stuff we use are the mechanical components like lead screws and stuff. Otherwise, it's all shared on github and google docs.

Without the free and open information home 3D printing would be in the stone age compared to what it is today....

Didnt the community fight off corporations (or startups?) that tried to monetize on it early on?

[deleted]

It's commercial free software, so you're the product.

Collects a shit ton of data.

Not gonna argue, its a good piece of software, but it lacks moral.

Hahaha

Rant....rant...rant

//You're probably the product

I threw that in there to make it clear that my only problem is with the phrase in question. It should be obvious, but reddit seems to miss the point all the time so I figured I'd just make that clear right off the bat.

Nah man I understood your point 100%

Just thought it was worth a little giggle

Gotcha! That was what I suspected, but its hard to judge

It's open source. Read the code if you like, or make your own.

if it's a free service (as opposed to just distributed software), you're the product.

Oh come on. That's an offer, not a requirement. You can perfectly well download the plugin without entering your name and email. It's the big yellow button saying "GET PLUGIN"

True dat. Just got it and NO personal info was traded.

Do they? You just need a google account. That quote about you being the product is usually true with services. If you create a program that doesn't require maintenance, except for some updates, you can do it "for free" out of generosity. Like the guys that made qBitTorrent

And the custom rom community

If it's free as in beer, but not free as in freedom, you're the product.

Well that only only applies to commercial products (see comment a a bit above)

The addon is open source so no you are not the product.

Oh yeah, I'm sooo the product for the GCC compiler.

Too bad their 2.0 post, which is the latest one, says Firefox next, but it didn't happen in close to 2 years.

Oh damn. Definitely installing this.

I skimmed through a Reddit thread on this plugin and most people said it didn't work. very limited choice of websites to pick from and it doesn't scatter your habits like you think it would.

Im really curious what this data its generating is. If its anything different than what I'm already normally doing, it wouldn't be that hard to filter out. Say, I turn it on around 10pm and run it all night and turn it off at 6 am. Thats 8 hours of quasi random data. But its significantly different than my normal browsing history. Sites that I don't ever visit. Topics I have never looked up before. Let alone, these are sites that only happen during that time period, from that device/browser fingerprint.

If the people mining the data aren't correlating whats happening between the different computers I use and the different devices like my phone, it might have a chance. But in general, the premise is flawed.

Not open source though, at least as far as I can see...

love it.

already installed and running in a tab in the background as I type this. getting ready to open up a couple local servers to add noiszy tabs to them also, I think perhaps a couple tabs for each chrome login.

Just use duckduckgo

On ecommerce sites, it's possible for Noiszy to click to purchase. Noiszy can't enter your payment info (or any other info), so that alone should prevent unwanted purchases virtually all of the time; but, if you're already logged in with saved payment information, it's technically possible for Noiszy to click a "Buy Now" button. Unless you're ok with surprise purchases, it's probably best not to run Noiszy on these sites. We've blacklisted Amazon and Ebay, so they can't be added to Noiszy, because they're higher-risk for accidental purchases. (Note that Noiszy can't be held liable for the links that it clicks; use at your own risk.)

Source: https://noiszy.com/choosing-sites

I am installing this on everything.

it is likely a datamining app itself.

It's open source and on github (see comments above for more details)

But thanks for spreading fear with your half knowledge

Is there a Firefox alternative?

Hmm. That Hackerrank link they posted doesn't seem too trustworthy of it...

Looks like a standard temple website like squarespace or something. I have one and it looks just as professional and I don't code at all.

The release of version 2.0 has 4 likes ... seems like a great concept though

Kind of like the "be a fish in the school" philosophy on guerrilla warfare of Ho Chi Minh.

And it's made by a data engineer that works on analytics.

hi, I'm angela.

I am a data person. I've loved math all my life and worked in analytics for nearly two decades. Now, I specialize in helping businesses collect good, actionable data in the most usable ways. I spend all day, every day, working with how data can be collected online, and what can be done with it.

https://noiszy.com/about-me/

can you tell your hacker friedns to make a friefox one please

Chrome only :( (regarding Noiszy)

Anyone wanna gold this for me?

Kinda like Fakeblock?

Isnt this an illegal form of DDoS? Web service providers would probably like to have a word with the creators of this tool.

Noiszy itself collects data: "We also aim to collect as little data about you as possible. We do use Google Tag Manager to collect Google Analytics data on this website, and we collect data on some actions within the plugin using Google Analytics directly"

I don't trust itttttt

Remind me! 1 day

Reply all can vouch for this one though, did a whole episode on it

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The problem is that the definition of skeletons might change over time.

[deleted]

It was more of a general remark why privacy matter and why it's problematic to have a massive amount of data about you available to undefined number of people and organisations.And in the end all securities measures don't provide 100% security - they just make things harder.

And I don't think we should stop using all modern technology. It's about how we use it and how we regulate it. Like with cars - imagine we would not have regulations about the use of the cars, but for some reasons we still have very little regulation about the use of our date. while the potential harm can be very destructive not only to the individual but to the society as whole (look at china - becoming a darker version of every sci-fi dystopian future).

That's just kind of a dangerous way of thinking. I mean..... if i haven't murdered anybody, I shouldn't care if the police can kick down my door any time of day without a warrant, right?

We have a right to a certain amount if privacy, unless we choose to give it up. If you want to give yours up, that's fine. But it's a dangerous thing to do and not everyone will share that opinion.

I don't get why people downvote you. We're not idiots for not taking measures to protect our privacy (I mean, it is possible to be an idiot for that, but that's not true in our case). It's not that were oblivious or gleefully ignorant to the fact that big corporations collect our data for profit. It's just that you personally like it, and I don't care.

[deleted]

Exactly, that's the most important thing - just because you and I don't protect our privacies, doesn't mean that we think that our ways are superior, or that protecting your data is stupid. It's simply not for us. Using anti-tracking measures, running a gapps-less setup on your phone, or sticking to FOSS software only (I love FOSS and use it where I can, but I don't always use it because sometimes for-profit software is just more convenient) is a great idea - if your goal is to keep your data to yourself and prevent Google and others from collecting it. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I think that people downvote you because they're feeling defensive, like our lack of interest in our personal privacy is an attack on their interest.

It’s probably an intermediary for sickos searching for child porn on the dark web. (INA engineer, but this is just me thinking the worst of people)

!RemindMe 1 day

!Remindme 1 day

OMG ad suggestions are coming in the form of reddit users, deactivate your account guys /s

Kinda sus considering that they ask for private info

I have a raspberry with chrome installed and my account logged in with a script that searches random convinations of 5 words from a dictionary every 20 seconds for 25 seconds.

And now amazon wants me to buy diapers.

To be fair, I seemed to have somehow triggered their "pregnant family" flag recently too. I'm a single white male lol. No idea how it happened. I do try to remove personalized ads from all services that have the option though.

You buy one present for one baby shower and BOOM! Suddenly Amazon thinks I'm a single mother expecting triplets.

You bought a crib last week!?! So it’s time to buy another one! Right?

This. I bought two economic law books on Amazon for my brother once. Now 90% of all Amazon ads are for law books, even though I never even clicked on a single item of that kind since. How in the world their algorithm drew the conclusion that I'm apparently a law student now from that is honestly beyond me.

I once sent my cousin an amazon link to a Mickey mouse pancake maker and for a while his personal items were all Mickey mouse and Disney themed items. He was not a fan.

After the backlash in 2012 (target pregnancy ad targeting) some companies make their algorithms seems less stalkerish and creepy by giving you some false positives on purpose.

When I was 25 or so, Facebook started showing me ads for shows that ended in the 70s and pre-generated t-shirts about getting a cool grandpa. Still trying to figure out how that one happened.

It's because you have a gym membership, bar tabs and no condom purchases

1 of those 3 are correct.

I recently added a bunch of google ad server domain names to my hosts file mapped to 127.0.0.1 and i no longer get google ads or stupid suggestions anytime i visit anything. I'd recommend looking into it.

I do try to remove personalized ads from all services that have the option though.

I'm not sure I understand the thought process behind this... Don't get me wrong, I hate seeing ads, but if I'm gonna see them, they might as well be about something relevant to me. Besides, disabling personalized ads doesn't mean they don't collect personal data, only that they don't use it to target ads.

Besides, disabling personalized ads doesn't mean they don't collect personal data, only that they don't use it to target ads.

A lot of times it actually does. You need to read the fine print to figure that part out.

You remember that story from awhile back about target knowing a girl was pregnant before she did ?

I got a sampler of baby formula addressed to my sister in law. I told my wife to text her and tell her to take a pregnancy test. She did and she was indeed pregnant.

Do you have a blacklist of words set up, or are you just living dangerously?

If someday the autorities knocks my door down im going to blame a script anyways.

Maybe it figures it's a 2 year old mashing keys. And if there's a three year old, there's diapers

I had super weird Wal-Mart ads on Facebook, seemed like some weird clickbait ads like they were advertising Ferraris and boats and shit like I was a white trash lottery winner or something. Staples was doing the same thing advertising Fox Urine and lock out tag out boxes and other obviously not staes items.

And now amazon wants me to buy diapers.

Does your dad know you're pregnant?

Is google ads my dad?

I was riffing on

https://www.businessinsider.com/the-incredible-story-of-how-target-exposed-a-teen-girls-pregnancy-2012-2

Why not just run piehole on it?

I know that there are tools avalible, but i wanted to test what i learned making a small script

Isn't every 20 seconds for 25 seconds => 1 time?

Consecutive searches overlap for 5 seconds on diferent tabs.

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[deleted]

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Fuck chrome. Use Firefox.

[deleted]

Pretty sure thier programmers make the majority of commits, giving them defacto control.

I've been using AdNauseam for a long time and I haven't been banned from any Google services.

That either means that the size of people who use it is so small it isn't a problem for Google or that Google no longer cares because the service no longer has an impact on Google's bottom line.

More likely Google doesn't want to deal with the fallout for that and would rather just make it harder to use.

Google has more of a leg up in the technical arms race than the legal one.

Google is so powerful and widespread that I highly doubt banning users of that app or the fallout of it would really put a dent in them. If they wanted to they can ban the app from their store because it's their platform. There isn't a legal argument that requires the app stay on their store and there isn't one that requires them to allow people use of their service.

So I don't understand where you're coming from in a legal sense as it's completely legal and I don't understand where you're coming from in a PR sense as I really doubt banning users would have such a fallout that it would scare Google into dropping the issue. We're talking about a multinational company with a userbase the size of a large country here. It would take a monumentous blunder on Google's part to affect their PR and I'm positive they have a team of some of the best lawyers in the entire world.

Google is so powerful and widespread that I highly doubt banning users of that app or the fallout of it would really put a dent in them.

No, but it's powerful enough that banning people for what they do on their own computers might spark legislative attention. If not, the bad PR won't help when that battle inevitably comes.

If they wanted to they can ban the app from their store because it's their platform.

Which is what they did.

isn't one [a law] that requires them to allow people use of their service.

No, but Google has enough influence that if they ban people who use a product, they functionally ban the product. It's enough to possibly get legislators involved.

Google's business model works best when people don't think about it too much. Google doesn't want to draw attention to themselves because they require people passively accept data collection. Most people only go along with it because it's convenient and they never think about it. If Google got in the news, it would only encourage people to want regulations, or at least a tool to protect their privacy like this. The more people start adopting these tools and supporting lawmakers who want privacy, the more it hit's their business model.

No one issue is going to bring down Google, I'm under no illusions of that. But as the Cambridge Analytica case demonstrates big scandals will get lawmaker's attention, and as the E.U. demonstrates some of them might are willing to regulate to protect privacy at the expense of business.

They aren't banning people from what they do on their computers, they're banning them from using the product. Google is far from the only source for any of their services and there are alternatives out there to all of them. If Google was the standard for search engines or the only search engine worth using then I could see your point, but the fact remains that they aren't at all.

Part of my argument is that I believe that banning users from this relatively small app isn't going to stir up much controversy at all. Certainly not enough to get lawmakers involved. Comparing the banning of a single app that has a pretty niche use that a pretty tiny percentage of people use to a scandal that effected millions of people on the world's largest social media platform is a little unfair, don't you think? One is actually a huge scandal involving taking people's data without their consent or knowledge and used it for political reasons. The other is a company banning a singular app and it's users because it has the potential to hurt their business and they aren't harvesting personal data for politics, they're using it to show you ads. Those are vastly different things.

I'm not sure about the banning users thing, but Google removed it from their Chrome web store and idk if you can find it anywhere. Fortunately adnauseum is still available for Firefox (including the Android version).

You can always use Chrome extensions in dev mode, but you really shouldn't, mostly because you really shouldn't use Chrome at all

They banned the program from the chrome store but you can still download it and run it in developer mode. It produces an annoying pop up every time you boot up chrome but it’s a small price to pay for telling ads to get fucked.

Google actually did ban the plugin from chrome, and not just from the web store. The browser itself actually blocks it as "malicious software" or something. You have to enter developer mode to override that and it still comes up with a warning popup every time you start up the browser.

Google banned the plugin from Chrome. I'm pretty sure they didn't threaten users of the extension. You can still get it. If you don't have Windows 10 Pro/Enterprise, you'll have an annoying notification every time you start Chrome. I'll look into getting it on Win10 Home and Linux without the notification.

IIRC there is a website that gets REALLY SCARY searches in your browser history... it will fuck up google for sure.

https://ruinmysearchhistory.com/ (NSFW!!!!!!)

Is it christian soccer mom scary or "oh shit, the FBI is on my doorstep with five swat teams ready"-scary?

A bit of both, more the 2nd when you combine it all.

Mine went from "i hate my boss" to "how to kill someone hypothetically".

Bit of both IIRC. Some searches are funny but kind of dangerous and others were straight up fbi list.

Like "Low price children, barely abused"?

For the funny one sure. And then the next would be "how to join x" (isil / Or some other terrorist group)

Thank gods you're using the proper name for those fanatics, I'm sick of them ruining greek rainbows and rare female names.

The Greek rainbow goddess is Iris. Isis is the Egyptian goddess married to Osiris, so basically the queen of the gods.

To be fair there isn't a "proper name" in English to those guys. The Wikipedia page for style guides on them are all from individual news organizations, and most of them seem to choose to put the emphasis on "self-styled" or "so-called".

The actual abbreviation apparently would be Daw-Is/Da'esh or their full Arabic name but saying foreign words in English has the distinct feel of Trying Too Hard, speaking from my experience.

I have an American express serve card linked to the now defunct Isis softwallet. The result is that my debitcard says "Serve Isis". I've gotten more than a few dirty looks.

I had that one too! Mine was deactivated long ago though.

Do you pay more or less to have them extra abused?

No idea, mate. Not the right kinda guy to ask

IIRC the latter with some "the thought of that never crossed my mind but now I am ill" thrown in for good measure.

Disclaimer: Haven't touched it but saw it linked before.

Ah. It's a no from me too, then, dawg

Wow that's some fucked up shit. It googled bing.

The thing about this is if you are in need of this service then it implies you have a search history to ruin. It's like sweeping all the trash under a rug instead of throwing it out. All anyone or anything has to do is lift up the rug to see all the trash...

I'd say it's more akin to taking a bunch of trash from the dump and mixing it with yours. Still piles of trash everywhere, it's just not all yours now.

I think you misunderstand what that site does. It doesn't ruin your history in the sense of confusing people... it ruins it by searching for a lot of really really bad things that would almost certainly get you added to to some lists.

Oh goddamn lmao is it just for the novelty or does it actually have a purpose?

Well, that depends on how much you think it is a concern that megacorps with political ambitions have full knowledge of you. If that is not a concern, novelty. If that IS a concern, it for sure has a use.

Then what is it's use? I don't see how suddenly searching a bunch of heinous stuff is supposed to stop them from knowing about you. They can see you visited the site and now you have all this garbage. All they have to do now is go to the site themselves, use the service, log they keywords from that service, and then exclude those keywords from being included in your profile if you've searched for them after the date you've visited that site.

I guess if you've never searched for anything horrific beforehand you now have a cover, but as far as learning about your general habits and searches? This doesn't seem to do anything at all as it's so easy to tell what is fake and what is real.

[deleted]

You're telling me, that in a court of law, you can just say "Welp, sorry, I don't have any proof to back up what I'm saying, but I'm a real honest guy so you can trust me; I promise judge!" I'm not a lawyer and I am not the type to be, so maybe I'm completely wrong, but I just cannot see how that wouldn't be called out in some way.

[deleted]

That just... idk... I get how it's innocent until proven guilty and all that. It just feels like such a bullshit argument lol, but I understand the reasoning. I guess I should've expected something like that with our justice system, though it is mostly beneficial to have to prove someone guilty rather than innocent.

[deleted]

Yeah, I understand now. Thanks for learnin' me something today :). Appreciate you being so nice about explaining how it would play out!

I'm confused by the way you phrased that. Do you mean it finds your own egregious searches, or inserts new ones? If so, why would you want that? lol

inserts new ones.

not for your own computers use...

Ok. Yeah, that sounds like a terrible idea lol.

I ran this once, and then ran it again later. It's the same fixed 10 searches, so all you're doing is telling Google that you ran the funny joke thing.

It would be better if it composed its own sentences from a decent size dictionary and follow consistent but relatively unique themes.

No you don't want that guys.

But I wanna know how to join ISIS! Just for curiosity's sake!

Also, why not check what's the next flight to Syria from here?

Hmmm, does Syria have any good hotels?

Try Ad Nauseam. It basically tricks every ad you see into thinking you've clicked on then while also hiding them from view. Earns the sites you like to use even more money and data collection firms think you're interested in literally everything.

There's trackmenot

Poisoning your own data is totally a thing. I use two extensions for this.

The first, adnauseum, "clicks"* every ad it encounters. This screws up data analytics overall since it makes your data point an outlier that needs to be removed from data sets you're included in and costs stakeholders money.

The second, TrackMeNot performs random searches in search engines (there's a whitelist of terms it uses). This has the effect of spoiling your search history, and makes analysis of your traffic more difficult.

  • In the sense that it simulates the ad being clicked. It doesn't do anything with the response though.

adblock. That will stop you from seeing what they're pushing.

​

I find pihole to be pretty amazing because it actually blocks the data collection sites and stops apps from phoning home.

Yes, but those don't give fake data to trackers. It only blocks them.

Privacy possum sends fake data to them.

You're looking for jsfiddle. Pair it with another script to randomly browse the internet auto-clicking every advertisement. On a mass scale floods click-through statistics for advertisers with junk data. Collapse the ad market as no one can tell how effective any of the programs actually are.

Already exists... And it's Glorious..

Adnasuem stops ads from displaying... And pretends to click on every single one for you.

Am I the only one that prefers my ads to be relevant?

That's not the point though.

Look up ad nauseam

We tried that as a project in it school. PM me if you're interested. (Not an extension tho)

Privacy possum does this.

I like privacy badger. It doesn't fuck up data collection, but it gives you much more direct control over where websites are allowed to send your data. You can just block cookies, or you can block the connection altogether.

​

The only bad part is that you have to basically do it for every site you go to.

http://ruinmysearchhistory.com/

OBLIG: warning this will ruin your search history

https://ruinmysearchhistory.com/ is pretty fun

AdNauseum just clicks on every single ad on a page before it blocks them from showing up

...and then you get irritated by all the uninteresting content thrown at you.

Ehh. I run a pihole anyway, so I just avoid it anyway

Ad Naseum on Chrome does that. It clicks EVERY ad it can and makes any data useless because how conflicting it becomes.

I would like it to be called "fuck my shit up"

Already exists! It's a FOSS add-on based off of ublock origin called adnauseam. It's available for most common browsers, but a bit harder to install on chrome.

Ad nauseum, clicks every ad. Fucks with any data they have. As far as you see they are all blocked though.

Just let your cat walk on the keyboard for a few hours

I have been dreaming about this for years!

Only if it's hot, single and waiting for me.

Adnauseum. Google hated it so much they banned it from chrome.

Seems like adnauseam is what you're looking for.

Hey, you guessed my hobby!

I'm a 45 year old carpenter from Sydney, btw.

Hey fellow Aussie! I too am middle aged and live below the equator.

I'm a Senegalese woman who is pretty into carpentry myself

Yall need to stop posting on my Vietnamese oragami subreddit

What does this have to do with Nauruan vexillology of the early 1850's?

Snakes are cool I guess

Fold it up and just pretend

What a coincidence! My son is also a woodworker who lives with me here in Ulaanbaatar.

[deleted]

That website that analyzes your reddit profile thinks I'm a girl for some reason.

I think it's because I said I liked sucking dick or wrote "i'm a girl btw :)" at the end of posts.

What's up, ya cunt?

Hey just noticed.. it's your 4th Cakeday Sir_Lith! ^(hug)

Oh hi there comrade! Im an 18 year old ukranian tropical fruit farmer!

I’m a 96 year old coal miner from East Timor and I have exactly the same hobby, what a coincidence

I for one am a 16 year old female in Antigua. You hear that?!

My location is accurate, but they think I'm a 50+ year old woman. That's something, I guess.

Some of my students mentioned the other day how they sometimes swap their store discount cards at parties to foul up purchase profiling.

I have a little game going, I have two accounts set up on all my stuff both under fake names. One is the "real" me and one is just a hoard of bullshit and I try to confuse anything that might be tracking me.

I get ads for restaurants in the US, Europe and India. Looks good to me.

More like, "I know how literally everything I use is collecting a data profile of me, there is no escape from it, resistance is futile, 'Alexa order me more whiskey'".

The fact that they constantly try to sell me romance novels means they're not much past the "oh a wimmenz who sez she likes books" level of mining.

And having made this comment will likely result in another million recommendations for romance novels.

Dangit.

Maybe I should redefine my Facebook gender to get some decent book ads.

Then again the only reason I have Facebook is so my elderly relatives don't pester me for pics of my offspring, and I really wouldn't want to deal with those phone calls...

Im going to shop for lingerie for a few minutes so my targeted ads get hella sexy

arent those called unit tests

I dont know... I never said that Im a data engineer... Im a farmer btw...

This is what the military taught us to do as well. Disinformation is more effective than no information.

I infact learn this tactics from a friend that involve in military.

Do you play Numa Numa on loop all day as well, like me? I wish I could see their faces when they try to use that data for marketing purposes! Ha!^helpme

I know a guy like that. He thinks he's doing a community service. I'm not sure if it matters at all.

Not a data engineer but I do this (albeit on a less than massive scale) all the time.

Lmfao! What?!

dat engineer

Elon Musk be like, "We gotta go to mars. They'll never get us there"

Oh, Elon

The printer frequently disobeys me, and sometimes I turn around to find that it's closer to me than it was an hour prior.

It just wants a hug

Maybe it has a bug...

Just kill me already...

And more red ink...

Are you still alive?

Hello yes I am still respiring there is no need for concern my printer is good would you like it goodbye.

WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING?

THIS HUMAN APPEARS TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO PRINT BOTH UPPERCASE AND LOWERCASE STATEMENTS IN THE SAME TONE OF VOICE

THIS IS THE PRINTER DON’T LISTEN

WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING FELLOW HUMAN?

You... you sound like a synth.

I certainly am, fellow human. Now please, pass along your current IP address. So that we may engage in our normal human activities.

Wife her!

[deleted]

this person is an actual comedy god, if i could give you gold i would!

It's too late, they're taking over. All hail our new overlord HP DeskJet 2630 Wireless All-in-One Printer

They smell fear and are particularly prone to attack during the deadline season. If one is on the prowl the best course of action is to get on all fours and make cat or dog noises. This will convince the printer you're the family pet and thus mean no harm.

Don't worry it will run run out of yellow ink before it makes it half way to you and every aspect of it's operation will cease.

I just moved it an inch every time he went to the bathroom, and that's how I spent the entire day that day.

It's the Felicity doll of home electronics.

They smell fear dude, you should kill it preemptivly.

It just needs to refill its ink... with your blood!

That's not always true.

​

Sometimes you meet the make-it-run-doom kinda guys.

Are you suggesting I can run doom on a smart house?

D[Hue]m

If you put enough hue bulbs on a large wall it should eventually be able to make an image. Dunno mutch about how fast it can change colors, or how it would even be possible to connect them all to the same system, but yeah....... it seems within the reaalm of possibility

Edit: Omg why did so many people upvote me?! The most experience I have with electrical engineering was when my phone charger broke so I opened the wire and put the snapped wire inside back together again with electrical tape, I was fully talking out my ass

[deleted]

Hue bulbs unfortunately have an update frequency of about 0.5-1.5s over wifi so it would be more like 0.3fps

...so you're saying there's a chance?

You can run doom on an esp8266, most smart lights use the same chip you only need an SPi LCD ..hold my coffee.

Edit: Gold? You people. I love you!

I feel like I'm witnessing history in the making.

Remindme! 240 hours

Remindme! 24 hours

!remindme 2 months

It's just history repeating because apparently whoever coded existence fucked up the conditions on the loop involving what Doom would run on.

!remindme 48 hours

https://github.com/hardkernel/ODROID-GO (EDIT - Playing it safe, and replaced the store link with their github for the device.)

Can confirm, I run Doom on this guy. (EDIT - I'm dumb, this runs on the newer ESP32...)

https://github.com/OtherCrashOverride/doom-odroid-go - I believe this is what I ended up throwing on it? The one I'm using the the one that has working audio, that's all I recall. It did crash after opening the "secret" door in M1 by the pool, not sure if that was just a one time crash for me or if it crashes there no matter what.

Also, it runs IIRC 15 to 20 FPS, maybe less. I'll check it out again later!

EDIT: I linked the ODROID/replied because I misread which ESP, just now noticed that.

https://www.espressif.com/en/products/hardware/esp32/overview

That's the chip the GO runs on. So then, I feel like a dumb dumb.

What about msdos.

https://hackaday.com/2018/02/26/pc-xt-emulator-on-esp8266/

!RemindMe 1 week doom smart house

RemindMe! 1 week Doom Smarthouse

!RemindMe 3 years

Wonder if I will still be using reddit.

I will be messaging you on 2022-07-26 14:58:45 UTC to remind you of this link

CLICK THIS LINK to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.

^(Parent commenter can ) ^(delete this message to hide from others.)

|^(Info)|^(Custom)|^(Your Reminders)|^(Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|

Doom at 3 spf is still Doom.

Lifx bulbs update a lot faster if you use the local API, though idk if they'd work well at the density needed for a screen.

They have the panels which have a lot more LEDs, individually addressable. In my experience you can do about 10 updates per second, 20 best case, with about 500ms latency

Yeah, you could do strips too... Could probably do one strip per row? Idk if that would give you a reasonable resolution though. Actually that would even give you scanlines probably lol.

Hue bulbs use Zigbee instead of WiFi, if you run your code on the hub or use the streaming api then the bulbs have an update frequency of 1/25 of a second, additionally the Zigbee network is a meshed network with each bulb able to both receive and transmit to/from neighbors.

People already use the bulbs for real-time music visualization and real-time entertainment matching (hue sync/hue entertainment ) with way less than a 0.5s update frequency.

He did the maths!!

Update frequency, or delay?

Delay from sent request to the bulbs changing. I used to work for Philips cs and it drove people up the walls when they tried to sync the hue bulbs with TV ambilight XD

They fixed this problem a long time ago, the bulbs have a 1/25 s update frequency now.

so wire your lights?

That makes me want to never buy Hue stuff. I'll keep to building my own RGB-Lighting dingdongs with Arduinos, ESPs and RasPis. Last project I built was able to get a color changing gradient streamed as commands over a serial line. And it looked smooth and updated instantly.

I have 4 hue bulbs, do I have a chance?

You sure? I was testing out Hue Sync last night and it seems to be updating faster than that.

It's been a couple of years, the new models may very well be faster, judging from the feedback we got back then, they really ought to :)

Yeah, I don’t think these people have touched Hue bulbs for years.

They have a 1/25 s update frequency now.

I mean, that's how most of us played it back in '93, and we liked it!

Doom at 3 fps is still Doom

Thats just the jaguar port

Words I will live by

Just say it's called "Doom 3" and you're good

Doom at 3fps is the classic doom experience

Go for a 90's resolution of 320x200 means 64k bulbs and at ~£40 a bulb that's £256,000 ($335k) to play DOOM on Hue. At 10W a bulb I guess it'll also need 640kW of power to run. That's half the power of a time traveling Delorean.
Edit: maths was wrong, it's £2.5 million to do this with Hue

Assuming that one Jiggawatt is equivalent to one Gigawatt, you're off by a few orders of magnitude.

640kW=0.64MW=0.00064GW

If I ever come into vast amounts of money im paying someone to do it

Hello, I'm someone to do it.

And I'm broke :)

I'm kind of surprised nobody has done this yet.

This content has been overwritten due to Reddit's API policy changes, and the continued efforts by Reddit admins and Steve Huffman to show us just how inhospitable a place they can make this website.

In short, fuck u/spez, I'm out.

Yet Elon Musk spends way more breeding his mole people, or whatever he's doing in those holes of his.

This content has been overwritten due to Reddit's API policy changes, and the continued efforts by Reddit admins and Steve Huffman to show us just how inhospitable a place they can make this website.

In short, fuck u/spez, I'm out.

/r/animemes said he's abandoning them for raccoon girls because of Sword Hero, but that's probably wishful thinking.

We joke but really hes just the first one to hit max level.

Uh, Hue bulbs are LEDs. My TV is an LED. Obviously it would work, duh. God, why do techies always make things so complicated? /s

tbh tho, I'm too poor to be in the same area code as a hue bulb

Literally LED screens are just tiny lightbulbs basically. You could totally make a wall of bulbs as a screen, a hack for a smarthouse OS to allow it to run DOOM, and it might have a high MS response time, but it’s electricity, just because it’s upsized doesn’t mean the FPS will be anything shit. The bleeding of one lightbulbs light into the other one may make it impossible to see what you’re doing unless you get focused and dimmed lights, but the rest should be straight forward, as long as it’s wired from scratch with this in mind, not making existing systems work.

make a grid of metal sheets, place the lightbulbs inside the grid, so the grid walls precent the light from bleeding over

Ummmm LED screens are LED because they are LED backlit. They are still LCD.

Well I’m a random guy on the internet don’t trust everything I say. I’m starting with electrical, not a master of lighting lol

Oh God don't tell Linus

I did a project with TRÅDFRI you can communicate with the bridge over coap (a tcp based protocol). So you can just add more bridges. The latency is quite high though.

Combine this and this and there you have it.

Skyrim confirmed for Hue.

You're describing a projector lol

no a projector casts light onto a wall. I'm talking about what is essentially an LCD display but with lightbulbs

The way hues change colors, it would not be great. but easily doable if you don't care about a really low fps and a weird frame change animation....

Cause theoretically at least it makes sense.

Congratulations, you just thought of the most primitive way to create a computer on your own, much like the scientists of the 20th century. The lightbulb-to-computer path is explained thoroughly in the book Code : Hidden Language of Computers, if anyone is interested. Funny how human mind makes the same connections regardless of time and space.

Not hue lamps, just build yourself an SMD RGB LED pixel wall.

Maybe I could have fitted more acronyms in that sentence.

this was specifically about how all "smart homes" have hue bulbs in every room, so playing Doom on a smart home should obviously involve as many hue bulbs as possible

I've seen smart homes with LED panel walls...

well it looks like your ass is talking some sort of sense

I cannot seem to find a link, but I swear I have seen a video of somebody who did something similar and got Doom to run on his Christmas tree.

NINJA: Here is the thread.

huehuehuehuehuehuehuehue

[deleted]

[deleted]

[deleted]

A few weeks ago I said something about how glad I was to be wearing flannel since it was cold as hell outside. I opened up Facebook and the first thing I saw was an add for a sale on flannel shirts featuring the exact shirt I was wearing.

Edit: I also work for a company that makes glasses and I get bombarded by competitors ads all day.

My Amazon is very confused. I searched for a couple weeks around for a smartwatch on Amazon, then for Christmas my gf gifted me one with her Amazon account, now I've already bought two additional watch straps with mine, and Amazon is bombarding me with "We think you might want a Gear s3" because they haven't yet figured out someone else might have bought it for me lol

It wouldn't stop if you bought one, speaking from experience.

"Oh, you bought a laptop? We're going to serve you laptop ads for 6 months."

"Our algorithms say you're a laptop-buyer. It's a thing you do. Now, we keep showing you these primo laptops, real cream of the crop for you people. WHY THE FUCK AREN'T YOU BUYING THESE LAPTOPS? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!"

Anyone who'd drop 500 dollars on a laptop after not spending anything on them in the past must really love laptops all of a sudden.

buys parts for a total of two computers via amazon

YOU ARE CLEARLY A BUSINESS USE A BUSINESS ACCOUNT! HERE, HAVE ONE FOR FREE!

Searched for mattress, bought a mattress.

"Hey how about another mattress? Can never have too many mattresses"

Yup, I used lots of searches to try to find a good mattress, but ended up buying one locally. This was 3 months ago. I still get mattress ads all over Reddit and other places.

that happened to me when I bought an office chair... months of "HERE'S OTHER CHAIRS" bitch I just bought one

That's Amazon's recommendation system for you. One moment you buy a table for your living room, the next Amazon has decided that you must be a table collector.

On the off chance that you didn't like the one you bought, probably.

It's likely a much higher likelihood than people realize. Even if it's just for brand recognition, the more you see something, the more likely you are to accept or appreciate it.

For advertisers, I'm willing to bet that it's more effective to serve ads to people that already bought a similar product than just randomly serving them. There has to be a higher return on investment. This makes more sense for items that are more frequently purchased, but there is also the chance that you like something so much that you also buy it for a friend/family member.

Or maybe they just don't account for the rate of repeat buys yet.

Alexa’s definitely been listening to me; Amazons been suggesting vaseline and tissues for months now. Dont worry though, I brought in bulk from Costco last year.

There's an algorithm improvement for Amazon - Tie up with FB to find the gf/partner/spouse and send them the ads around Christmas/Valentine's time or even better - around birthday and anniversaries ;)

now that would be a huge violation of GDPR, wow. But it would be awesome "Hey your husband just spent 2 hours at 2am looking at this stuff on amazon"

Ehh screw that. I don’t need any company knowing that much about me or my habits. I’m at a point where I don’t need anymore convenience. I’d like some privacy back though. Similar to the amount we had in the late nineties and early 2000s.

I got 2 kittens on a Monday after work. So i called a friend who had cats and wanted a suggestion for good cat food. Did not wanna make them junk. He suggested blue buffalo. My Amazon deal of the day? Blue Buffalo cat food.

Tell me they are not listening. I even went to tractor supply to get it. Never even looked it up.

Did you pay cash or card/use a rewards card? If card(s), that store sold your name and purchase info, as basically all places sell all the information about customers they can, which then sell it to other big players (Ad companies like Google, websites like Amazon, etc)

There's also behavioural analytics. If you've increased 'cat' searches then they know (or have a statistical idea), without you even needing to search cat food.

They're not. It's been proven that there's no extra network traffic unless you give the actual voice commands.

The truth is actually scarier. It's that companies have complex enough algorithms they can somewhat reliably predict what you're interested in.

You probably looked up something related to new cats and Amazon had an had on that site and picked it up. Maybe the card you used to buy it sold your information to companies like Amazon, etc. etc. The whole "ThEy'Re AlWaYs LiStEnInG" thing is an easy explanation, but the problem is so... so much worse.

Unless they don't, of course. Confirmation bias plays a part too. My Amazon is awful at suggesting anything remotely useful for me to buy. I think the "Deal of the Day" is site wide and not tailored to you at all too, btw.

I have a Amazon Fire 7 tablet, and for a $15 discount, they push ads at you on the lock screen. In the year or so I've had it, it's never bugged me enough to pay to stop it, because it doesn't affect my actual use of the device. The thing that I found surprising was that the ads are not personalized at all.

​

Amazon has a huge amount of info on me based on 15 years' worth of hundreds of purchases, but they are just spamming me was ads for romance novels and TV shows in genres I never watch. I can count on one hand the number of times the lock-screen ads were actually relevant to me.

If they were really spamming me with targeted ads, I'd probably pay to turn it off, since I'd actually be tempted to buy something every time I unlock the tablet.

​

do we have any solid proof it doesn't record stuff and send that out when you give it a command? I mean, audio files are usually pretty big so it would probably be easy to spot, but I haven't heard anything clear about that.

A lot of security firms are testing these. This one doesn't show the actual data, but it's the first one I found.

https://breadcrumbcyber.com/blog/alexa

You can download Wireshark and check it yourself.

I mean, I could if I had one of those types of devices, but I don't and that's mostly because they just don't seem very convenient to me.

It’s a program, not a device. You don’t need a device capable of promiscuous mode. All you need is a laptop or desktop computer.

Really? You can go out and download amazon echo as a desktop application?

Or do you mean Wireshark? Because again, I don't have the right type of device for it to matter. Sure I could download Wireshark on my PC but I have no smart home system connected to my network for me to monitor.

Yeah I meant Wireshark. Just a misunderstanding. I thought you were saying you didn’t have the right device for wireshark. Not to go down too far of a rabbit hole but, I mod the /r/kalilinux sub, and constantly deal with people asking if they need a card capable of promiscuous mode and packet injection.

So I guess my brain just kind of glanced over your phrasing and assumed you were talking about not having the correct card for promiscuous mode.

Edit - You can install Alexa on another device. That's how they get on to speakers from Sonos, Android devices, etc. You can even install Alexa on a Raspberry Pi and turn it in to your own home made echo device.

Yeah i didn't think there was a way to turn echo on another device, but... I can't be totally sure of stuff like that so I tried responding to both lol

Actually...lol...You can do that. You can also make your own google home mini. All you need is a raspberry pi, and a mic/speaker. If you decide to check it out. It is officially supported by amazon too. The instructions I linked are from Amazon.

Ahh ok yeah, I didn't really think you could but have paid so little attention to that stuff I really wasn't sure.

Seriously, it’s so much worse. They don’t need to listen. I relay to people the story of Target being able to identify a pregnant customer and send her marketing material before she even realized she was pregnant. And that’s just from the data that one retailer has about their own customers, never mind the all-seeing eyes of Amazon, Google, and Facebook.

For real. I'd forgotten about that story, but it's a pretty good example of why they don't need to listen to what you're saying. In fact, that'd just open all kinds of risks for them (both legally and not) they don't have to bother with.

The whole idea for the smart home assistant devices is to get you to buy more stuff. That's why they're so cheap, but almost all the other items that connect to them are not.

Maybe the friend recommended that food because it was deal of the day and it incepted into their subconscious.

How exactly is someone knowing what kind of stuff I like scarier than someone constantly listening to me and invading my privacy?

Because if you have a device you willingly put in your home that does it, that's easy. Remove it, right? If they're actually using information given to them from other sources that you may or may not be aware of, there's no simple, easy solution and you're stuck on the ride whether you like it or not.

[deleted]

Because it's constantly been proven wrong. Being concerned for your privacy is great; focusing on things that have been proven not to happen is wasting that focus. You're just wasting energy on imaginary problems when there are very real ones right in front of you.

If something comes out that proves that right, then you can and should absolutely deal with it. Otherwise, you're yelling into the void.

It could all be a coincidence, but what if their technology is just better than we're capable of detecting. Who is to say that the ad reference numbers aren't all preprogrammed with audio recognition so that when you DO connect, the preselected ad just has to trigger on your device. This would not require a transfer of information and if that's what people have been looking for this entire time, that would explain why privacy isn't actually being violated.

Well, all network traffic has to go through your router and you can't just fake data sizes, for obvious reasons. You'd have to have so many different companies who have no reason to work together "in" on the fraud that it's pretty crazy.

We can also see how ads are ultimately served thanks to it being through javascript, which is run clientside.

You have to go through some crazy hoops that make no sense to make your theory work.

Right crazy hoops like adding 6 numbers to your traffic, lol.

Which... you could see. The crazy hoops is all the things required and everyone "in" on it to hide it.

all network traffic has to go through your router

On devices with cellular connections this isn't necessarily true. The blogs, articles, editorials, etc. that I've seen only ever talk about the LAN traffic. It's for that reason I haven't written off the possibility, but I also don't assert that it's definitely happening.

It's more difficult to thoroughly test cell phones, for sure. We were specifically talking about devices like Alexa, Google Home, etc.

Phones are honestly way less secure in general, which is always amusing to me on these threads. People go on and on about smart home devices secretly listening, etc. but then they're than likely the same people that carry a phone in their pocket or have it nearby all the time.

Ah, apologies. Redditing while distracted; overlooked the specificity.

Agree about the contradiction of paranoia over home devices while always carrying a phone, though I kind of understand how the ubiquity of phones makes it easy for some people to forget the potential capabilities.

They would have to transfer a bunch of adverts to your device, ready for the right one to be selected. That would be detectable.

No, they can add 6 number codes to your traffic or something similar and serve it that way

Where do you keep getting this 6 from? Seems kind of arbitrary

You don't understand, in order to know what you're saying they have to send the audio of you talking to their servers, Echos and phones are not powerful enough to run the speech recognition. So you can definitely tell from looking at the network traffic whether it sent MBs of audio data when it shouldn't be listening (because you haven't said "Alexa" or whichever wake word you're using, which are the only words the device can recognize on its own).

I can imagine a lot of things. That doesn’t make any of them valid.

[deleted]

Maybe I’ll believe it when someone proves it with evidence other than an anecdote.

I agree that it's nice to see people actually caring about privacy, but it's good to be able to prove why certain methods of data collection simply aren't happening or are impractical. Now if we can get them to care about monocultures too, then we'd be onto something!

You can just not have those devices in your home.

cats are carnivores so read the ingredients for proteins and avoid grains. I use Pure Vita

As long as they're just providing legitimate deals for things you want, I'm cool with it. But I don't have any realistic expectations that the tech wouldn't be used for surveillance.

Same. As long as websites are free to use, there will be ads. If there will be ads, I at least want them to be relevant.

Please don’t feed your cat Blue Buffalo, it gave my cat explosive diarrhea and if I hadn’t looked up the reviews shortly after I could have been looking at way worse issues. The company used to be made in the US now they are made in China and they changed the formula. Please read the reviews of all the people that either lost a pet or racked up thousands in vet bills because of what that garbage food did to their cat or dog.

Blue Buffalo cat food.

I get that deal once in a while and have no pet and no reason to get that, so....

I have a google hub and Alexa and I know they’re both always listening. The only thing that really scares me is when they activate without even hearing their catchphrase or when I look through my queries and see all these things I’ve said to them and think wow how they are mining my data.

Why do you use them then?

I got Alexa first to control my hue lights, my nest and play jeopardy it’s pretty cool, then I got the google hub for cooking and grocery shopping and having a hands free tool in the kitchen, which I love, it’s not all bad and I like the features of a smart home, but what I really want what we all want is the ability to actually delete or user data from Amazon or Google services.

Gifted one & refuse to use it

Honestly.. whats the point of alexa and other such devices?

i am genuinely curious because i see no point to them. They aren't really much faster nor more comfortable to use... not to mention privacy issues.

I have a bunch of smart lights and a smart switch and use my Google home setup to turn lights on/off as I'm on my way into/out of rooms, mostly because a lot of our light switches are in weird-ass places. The switch is wired into an electric kettle so we can start some tea without getting out of bed.

Basically there is a small set of things that I think are more convenient through my Google Home, basically smart home control, kitchen timers, and checking the weather while I get dressed. On top of those basic convenience things, you can also "cast" media to them and join them to audio groups, so between my Home, Home Mini, Home Hub, and two Chromecast Audio, I have a pretty solid whole-home audio setup that lets me throw on some music and wander the house cleaning or whatever without ever leaving the music.

weird ass-places

^(Bleep-bloop, I'm a bot. This comment was inspired by )^xkcd#37

So it looks like voice recognition isn't the most used and crucial function.. but ability to work as a hub to control other devices.

EDIT: From what i've gathered people either have really niche use for them, or use them as a hub for home automation.

Right. I mean kitchen timers are just voice recognition I guess, but I probably wouldn't buy one just to run kitchen timers...

Sounds like an ad

"Here is what I do with it..."

"Sounds like an ad."

The hell? He answered the question.

I said it sounds like one. Too many product names and buzzwords.

To be honest, the privacy issue sorta is the point. You get personalized ads from it.

We only have one big lamp in the living room and it's plugged in behind the couch so our 2 year old doesn't play with the cord. This is the only light in the room because there is no overhead ceiling fan light. Anyway, most helpful thing hour Google home little speaker does is turn that lamp on and off for us via a WiFi plug. Honestly, pretty handy. But besides that, we use it to play music and that's about it.

I have a friend who uses a Google Home for playing music in the shower...being able to change songs with voice control would be rad, though my phone is water resistant enough that I don't mind reaching out to change the song by hand.

Why not block the ads?

Could your SO have searched for that stuff on an IP or PC you share?

Coworker and I put this theory to the test (we both work in IT). While out to lunch, we would intentionally fabricate conversations and namedrop certain topics that were unrelated to anything else in our lives (stuff like "flying to Fiji" or "Carhartt overalls"). He has Facebook installed, I do not. Shortly after, he would receive Facebook ads related to these topics.

While I did not get anything related on my Android device, it's difficult to rule out Google as well since there's been plenty of times I've seen suggested news articles and such that make you scrunch your face up suspiciously.

[deleted]

But tbh the news articles are one of my favorite features. It really filters stuff I honestly don't care about and aggregates news from sites I don't visit.

Do you want to live in an echo chamber? Because that's how you live in an echo chamber. Personally I find the idea of a private megacorp "curating" towards or away from any information that may be pertinent to your rights as a citizen (news, for example) to be at least a little concerning.

On the other hand, that IS how Shadowrun starts off, so, you know, trade-offs.

Currently, they curate based on topic and subject. If I follow news and politics, I get news and politics from NPR and Fox News alike. Granted, I can personally choose to ignore Fox News entirely, but that's on the user.

They're glorified RSS feeds that have been around forever.

They also crawl your gmail and hangouts activity.

The English language really needs a cleaner word for “something that makes you scrunch your face up suspiciously”

I think the word is "suspicious".

That sounds like something one of them would say.

scrunches face

No, that is when you just squint and maybe turn your head a few degrees to the right or left. He is talking about scrunching the whole face up. I think a better term would be "super suspicious".

Get outta here, you! You with your fancy words and things...

It does: it’s 🤔

unscrupulous? I dunno, I get that vibe from the word.

furrow your brow?

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Furrow your brow?

Scowl? Squint? Nostrils flared?

[deleted]

Thousands of hackers haven't fully figured out how Google's search algorithms work either.

What I'm saying is that it's a whole lot of cases, a bit too many to write it off as a simple coincidence.

Thousands of hackers haven't fully figured out how Google's search algorithms work either.

Because that isn't on the consumer end, it isn't data being sent, unlike the other case.

Could it be coincidence? I don’t really notice ads at all. I think for a complete study, you need to note ads you get normally then do this name drop thing and make sure no one googles it around you.

Simple way to test it: Repeat the test with one phone turned completely off (or even left behind at the office), and then the other.

Better, make it unknown to the speakers what state the phone is in.

I've speak about random things, as all these stories are suggesting, all the time. I have yet to receive ads for these random things, and I own an iPhone with FB installed.

Ya'll are just paranoid. Lot of work involved in keeping a mic hot and discerning what was said, then giving that information to a relevant application which produces the new ads you see based upon what was said. Lot of tech involved with how computers "hear" words and translation of that to actions.

You’ve met Siri, right?

Different technologies. Stop being ignorant because you don't understand; instead, I urge you to learn. You'd sooner realize the sheer effort required to do these things.

I work in tech, stop being a dick because someone disagrees with you. It is not at all hard to send audio back to a server, process it for phrases, and then add those phrases into a database of terms associated with your psychographic profile. Just because YOU think it’s hard, doesn’t mean it actually is.

If you didn't think I work in tech and already know this, you're an idiot. It's not whether someone disagrees; it's whether that technology is being implemented in the way they are suggesting...which it's not. Quit being daft and acting like this is a real thing that happens and there are little shadow devs out there writing malicious code that easily finds it way into an application and that NO OTHER dev could easily find and expose. That's just plain ignorant.

Ok. So how are targeted ads being served based on in-person conversations then if no one is listening?

Did the same thing with my GF. "Disney World, pineapples, and drug rehabilitation in the southwest".

She hated me, but at last she was getting focused ads.

I recently switched work, and got pretty suspicous when google would keep giving me adds related to products/brands I had just discussed with cutsomers. The simplest explanation I could come up with is that it was listening through my iPhone, which was alwasy lying closeby.

I told a friend over phone that I am looking for a loan, while actually I was not, and I get an email in the afternoon from a very reputed bank in india giving good interest rates. This can't be a coincidence. I don't get loan spams as I always ignore them.

What's more likely is he saw those ads which is why he mentioned it. Or somebody else used the same WiFi to search those things which is why they showed up.

They definitely do track your search and browsing history, but I don't think they listen to what you are saying.

It's just something similar to the Baader-Meinhoff (frequency illusion) and confirmation bias. You never notice when the ads are irrelevant. It's the same reason that the recommended search is often exactly what you are looking for. It's usually because somebody nearby searched it, or it's recently frequently searched (celebrity death) or similar to your other recent searches.

The technology definitely exists, but I don't think it's actually in use. It's just simple paranoia.

I've been thinking about this and I definitely think both may be true. Also, if you have a friend visit you and connect to your WiFi / vice versa you will spread your ads to each other. In other words, the ad you got over the conversation you had about your friends interest is because s/he googled it in the past.

Yeah. I don't think they are listening to you but I definitely do think they have something far more complex in play so they probably don't need to listen to you.

Everybody's worried about the microphone when they've already moved past it. It's like people thinking that they're climbing in your windows. They don't need to.

They're probably at the level where they know what you're going to search before you search it because they're the ones that put the idea in your head.

Obviously not ALWAYS. That would be crazy. I can see them doing it if you're just browsing and you "suddenly realise" something.

Well yes, but I definitely think they listen as well. Any user input is stored and analyzed. For example all Android phone has GPS location tracking enabled by default, which in practice means that anytime you visit some place significant for ad purposes it will show up in your ads. Like going to a big hardware store would bring you ads for tools as if you were a proper garage-dwelling dad even though you only ever use a screw driver when assembling furniture once every 3 years.

For example all Android phone has GPS location tracking enabled by default,

Enabled yes, active no. Your phone would be empty in 2 hours.

Like going to a big hardware store would bring you ads for tools

That generally works with Wifi location finding or bluetooth beacons installed at the stores.

Facebook/Google/Amazon do not publish to advertisers any sort of listening capability; rather, they hide behind generic "interest" segments. This is not to say they don't do it, but they're not telling anyone if they do. Given all of the shit they're doing behind the scenes it would not surprise me.

There are listening ad products on the market. A company named Alphonso uses the microphone to listen to people's TV watching and serve ads to devices connected within the household via the router, either in real time or otherwise. This is the only solution I've seen that publicizes use of the mic in the market in the last few years. I've not worked with a brand that wanted to touch that wanted even to get close to that.

The GPS is typically a result of app permissions. Most apps have loads of ad tech loaded in on the back end, so that when the app refreshes location they update your profile with that location, often aggregating data across apps to gain clarity. So in other words, any apps with passive GPS tracking are giving advertisers passive GPS tracking. Disable the apps and the advertisers can't do it as easily (still not impossible for them though).

Not a shill here. Roughly, the part of Alexa that listens for its wake phrase isn't even connected to the internet, it just activates the part that is once it is awakened. Or at least that's how it's been reported to work.

They definitely do. My android security sent me an alert recently that facebook was activating my microphone while my screen was locked. Immediately deleted it.

Oh well yeah maybe I'm wrong.

First I've heard of that though. I've never installed it, but I would be worried if it turned out WhatsApp or Messenger or Instagram or anything else owned by Facebook was listening...

Found the Amazon bot, guys!

Mentioned in a separate comment, but Facebook/Google/Amazon are not telling advertisers they're not doing it, but that doesn't mean they aren't.

There 100% are companies in the marketplace that use the mic for advertising. One such company markets use of the mic to tie TV watching to specific devices in the household to advertise on. They've been doing this for 5+ years, but I've not worked with a brand that actually partners with them as it's not a super popular idea with many.

That’s wild. I used to have a sketchy android phone, one day while I had that phone a buddy came over to buy some weed. I throw my phone on the bed and get to work with my scale, after the dude leaves and I grab my phone, it had our entire conversation jotted down in a text to nobody. That’s the day I switched to an iPhone.. it still listens and offers undesirable ads but at least it hasn’t attempted to send incriminating texts.

Let me take a stab - Lithuanian?

Oh hi Google, I see you're here too?

No, I'm Lithuanian.. It was your nickname that give it away, to be fair!

Oh, haha. That makes sense, I've been using this one for decades.

What is a coffee pad? Can I just slap it on my vagina in the morning?

I feel bad for my AdSense whatever thing that's listening to me. It's gotta be really depressed and scared.

This man jumped off a cliff because his wife left him.

Would you like to know more?...

*backs away slowly*

Why is it that my first thought when you said "coffee pads" was a menstrual pad, but like, for women who menstruate coffee?

I really don't think anyone here will be able to answer that question..

Pretty sure you'd need to go on some kind of pilgrimage to find the person that could answer that

THE TEMPLE IS OPEN

Damnit. Is this another Shrine Quest?

Where the fuck is jah rule?!?!

Siddhartha is that you?

i thought maybe like a nicotine patch, but for caffeine ... if they have those, oh nevermind, im sure i'll get an ad for them shortly now if they do.

they don't have ones that work

I looked into this idea but after speaking with some professionals it was shelved. Caffeine doesnt really work like that.

Given I’ve never heard of coffee pads and the fact that I’m not going to further research them, it really was my first and only thought on the subject.

Because you're a Keurig pleb. #TeamSenseo

Those are fighting words. I drink fresh-ground pourover coffee, thank you very much.

Or because he, like me grinds his own beans and uses a french press to make superior coffee

[deleted]

Why nocontext? Without context it's still just someone asking himself why they understood coffee pads in someone else's comment as pads for someone who menstruates coffee?

I believe most people refer to them as filters rather than pads

I don't know but I like the way you think. Now I know my first wish should I ever encounter a genie.

r/evenwithoutcontext

women who menstruate coffee

Wow. This really brings some things together for me. My girlfriend talks about flicking her "bean," and I get a rush from going down on her.

I don’t know why that is. But now I just had the mental image of a menstrual filter, and I’m really turned on at work now.

That isn't Alexa though. That's your actual phone picking it up. Apps that you gave permission to use your mic are selling your info. I was in the Dmv talking about shitty Honeywell cameras and the next thing I know I'm getting ads for them. Checked and Facebook had mic priveledges.

[deleted]

Well, it's time to test it. With the phones out of the room, turned off, under pillows, whatever... mention a product....something common-ish with competitors, that you wouldn't normally be talking about...

Maybe discuss cordial cherries?

Repeat each time, deactivating other devices, changing products, and see what ads come up...

So wait a minute, you lock down access to your phone's permissions hard, likely in the name of privacy, but have an Alexa monitoring everything?

It simply had to be the Alexa thingy.

security researchers have proven these are inactive unless its lit up listening to you, unless you're enabled some wonky or malicious 'skill' for alexa. Even then, the lights stayed lit up.

Otherwise your data is likely being sold by the stores you shop at, especially if you have any type of 'rewards' account with them. advertisers are cross-selling stuff all the time with other companies. Even credit card companies sell your purchase data.

Its impossible for it to not be using some power to be able to listen to you tell it to "power on." They've admitted as much

Its impossible for it to not be using some power to be able to listen to you tell it to "power on."

Yes. That's where the hardware chip that listens for the command word comes in. this chip doesn't actively record and send anything, something your can verify very easily with wireshark, since audio data is large. It just simply waits till it hears the programmed word, then wakes the rest of the device up.

Because its a hardware device, its also the reason you cannot rename Alexa to any name, and can only pick from preset command words that the hardware chip supports.

edit: not to mention that most listening microphone circuit packages don't have means to 'store' any bulk data or really have multiple command words (limited to training only 1 command word).

So you're telling me this chip can't also recognize brand names and serve ads when you connect?

Anyone using wireshark is missing the point. It's the internal hardware that has voice recognition already, they don't need to transmit your data all the time.

you're telling me this chip can't also recognize brand names and serve ads when you connect?

right, researchers have torn the device apart and it cannot hold much data. Hell, the thing has to re-flash the firmware when you do change the activation word, so just by that we know the firmware can only hold 1 word.

It's the internal hardware that has voice recognition already, they don't need to transmit your data all the time.

You'd still notice the occasional 'lump' of data that it would send out. Plenty of security researchers noted that the rest of the device stays inactive without any wake word activity.

On top of all of that, there's already been court cases, but all Amazon can produce is voice logs after the command word has been said.

Not really the point. You don't just take someone's word on that stuff. It's not some sleeper cell conspiracy, they could simply be avoiding detection. All you keep saying is "we haven't detected it."

If you don't want to talk about how it's possible instead of regurgitating the reasons it's not possible then there's nothing left to discuss. Your unnecessarily long responses are a drain to keep up with.

It's obvious you're not going to be persuaded by anything since you've already made up your mind.

Have a good day.

There is a lot of work involved in keeping a mic not only hot, but able to transfer that recorded information to a relevant source which would then directly target you and show you ads based upon what was said. I honestly believe that people don't understand tech, so they come up with shit like this. It's a massive task to keep your mic hot 100% of the time while also "listening" for anything.

People are really paranoid.

Why do you think the Facebook app is a battery killer?

Work means nothing if the generated revenue/profit can reach billions. Which it does.

Using our own power consumption too.

More paranoid speak.

aLl yOuR iNfOrMaTiOn iS oN tHe iNtErNeT aNyWaYSSSSSSSSS

Stop with this anti-privacy bullshit.

How am I anti-privacy? Because I explained the realities of the situations that people have confirmation bias about?

I use Facebook all the time, but I don't use it on my mobile devices for this reason.

​

I just double checked and while I refuse to have Facebook on my phone, Instagram had mic privileges

Not true, it cant run the mic if the app isn't on. This is made up paranoia.

You’re married, therefore you use the same amazon prime account as your wife. It’s not too surprising.

Does she use Facebook?

I've got one that will blow you're mind. Went to the store of wals. Needed toothpaste. my eye catches on a decent lil electrical toothbrush. Paid 15$ in cash and swear to you I never searched for, typed, verbally mentioned it to anyone or to myself. Next morning first thing, lo and behold an ad for that exact toothbrush on fb. Meaning the mega retailer saw my face, IDd me, found my fucking facebook account and sold FB the data of my cash purchase. Shit is nuts and peole dont believe me.

Also shitty spelling bc mobile typing.

After reading Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH to my kid at bedtime I started seeing ads for mouse traps all the time.

Oh boy, if that's the sort of shady shit they do, we gotta set up a smrt device in our living room.

4 students living here, plus other friends. Our bants run wild and free, and would totally ruin our shopping recommendations.

Classic.

https://youtu.be/U0SOxb_Lfps

I only had this once: I sent someone a pic of our fridge via WhatsApp and Amazon sent me a mail with fridge recommendations and this exact model was at number 1. Pretty disturbing shit.

I want to add something to this: I’m Austrian living on the swiss border. My family’s dialect is a heavy mix between Austrian and swiss and to the average German doesn’t even resemble german in many ways. We had our grandparents over yesterday and I off-hand mentioned to my grandad, over the Noise and banging of loud chatting and eating around the dinner table, that I’d love to come over some time for coffee and talk about his family history because I’ve recently taken an interest in families afflicted by the 2WW (my grandads parents and grandparents being on the NS-sympathising side and my grandmas on the other) and I never really thought to talk to my grandparents about this.

The SAME evening, as I retreated to my room, for the first time in my life, I get an ad on YouTube for a mouth-swab gene hereditary website where they can tell you your history and genealogy of your ancestry. I always suspected that my iPhone (I own no other “smart equipment”) was listening in on me. But the accuracy and specificity of this one was just flabbergasting to me in so many ways.

I listened to a podcast where the 2 people mentioned something called a "Snoo". I had never heard of it before. It wasn't an advertisement, just an off hand comment during a 2 hr podcast about what type of crib they like for their infants.

There has been an ad for Snoo rentals on my reddit page everyday since. In fact, its there right now. "Happiest baby...get more sleep...Snoo smart sleeper"

My kids are grown, I haven't looked at cribs online in over a decade. I'm scared to listen to anything now.

Wait... What's a coffee pad?

Wtf is a coffee pad?

It's so obvious that they record audio. I've loudly said the term "Cat food" over and over to my phone when nothing was supposed to be running.

Suddenly got ads for cat food, but I don't own a cat nor have searched it, nor wrote about it beforehand.

Also ads for things that I phyically bought on a whim, but never looked up. (Looking at you, Folger 1850).

It's a combination of kinda cool and totally creepy

Yeah I don't like my smart phone all that much anymore. Talked about getting sound insulation at the dinner table. We also made some joke involving communism. Next thing you know my facebook displays Wish ads for the foam, and a USSR vodka set. Highly creepy. If it caters to what you search online, fine enough. But just having it pick up things I say are a big no.

The alternative explanation is that these companies know enough about you to make predictive guesses that only resemble eavesdropping, but that's not better.

The test for this is to put your phone in front of a speaker that is repeating words you'd never ever use yourself.

Then see if they pop up in your suggestions.

Wtf is a coffee pad?

It’s called confirmation bias. Lots of scientific tests have shown no sign of audio monitoring.

[deleted]

There's a post there about getting Doom to run on your smart-fridge

I think they got it handled

The smart house is doom you just don’t know it yet.

rock starts playing and getting progressively louder

you mean metal

Alexa, shoot that demon

Alexa, fus ro dah!

Ok, ordering 'Demon Suit'

That would be interesting. "Ok Google, play Doom" "You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door."

Or was it a challenge ...

I've seen doom run on a smart doorbell

Everything is a Doom platform if you're brave enough.

You can run doom on almost anything that has a screen these days.

Wouldn't that make it… a DOOM HOUSE?

You can run doom on anything if the will is strong enough.

Yes and if you do IDSPISPOPD you can go right through the walls of your smart house

I'm suggesting we should at least try.

Well, some of those smart home touchpanels are just running android, some run Windows mobile.

I think it would almost be trivial to get those panels to run doom.

Yes, someone else's smart house.

Didn't someone make it run on a smart fridge recently?

That the real future. Fuckers hacking your houses holograph system to play doom without warning.

More like tetris https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b440SWBFov0

Probably on a smart thermostat, yeah.

I mean, Alexa can run Skyrim, soooo Doom shouldn't be much of a problem.

I have a cup that runs Doom. It was hand-made by a Japanese craftsman, so playing Doom on it is pretty unique.

Play doom on your thermostat.

Heaving breathing intensifies.

If AR ever makes it big, you can put on some goggle and fight Doom demons in your house!

It’s much easier then most people think, just Grab a shotgun and invite the neighbors.

Put a TV in each room, make the house stream the game to the one closest to you.

This is how you open a portal to hell.

Probably. DooM is pretty portable. https://www.reddit.com/r/itrunsdoom/comments/8mv8pt/oc_doom_can_run_on_your_samsung_smart_fridge/

It will even run on your fridge.

Yeah just install Skyrim and then a mod that turns it into Doom.

No, but I heard Skyrim is out on the thermostat now

Well technically sure just play it on a TV in the house.

Alexa, rip and tear

With proper incantations to Alexa you can experience Doom by tearing open a portal to Hell right in the comfort of your home.

Uhhh. I bet you we can make doom run on a dumb house..

You can run doom on an ipod classic, I just found out.

Thermostats have screens right?

Theres already a program to make your home a doom level with roombas, the doomba

Are you fucking suggesting that I can’t?

Before long it'll turn into MAP27.

I feel like you need to know that in Czech the english word "Doom" sounds exactly like "Dům" which literally means "House".

Well Someone somewhere probably can.

"Darling, why are the lights not working again?"

having the exact opposite problem. the lights in the apartment i currently rent are connected to infrared sensors. today they just started turning on for no reason. either im being haunted or someone fucked up :)

that being said, i love "toys" that can connect to the internet, or bluetooth, and made do trivial things.

so they are not working...

The lights are working, but the sensors aren't.

I'm standing outside his house with the remote to my tv pressing the power button towards his windows.

I wonder when the first universal toolkit will come out that allows you to just point it somewhere and turn off the entire house.

Probably never since these devices don’t operate over IR like TVs. The controllers are usually paired over bluetooth or wifi (RF)

Edit: corrected IR vs RF

TV remotes are almost always IR, not RF. Bluetooth and wifi are both RF.

Correct, sorry!

So I guess you've not heard of aircrack-ng and the likes yet.

I was using that years ago, didn’t know it was still around. Still, you’d need to be able to pair it with the device which usually requires physical access to the device to retrieve a code of some sort.

but sweetie, the lights are working, the sensors are hyperworking or the light trigger is shorted. were just running at 140% efficiency :D

No sounds like they aren’t working

Putting "toys" in scare quotes makes me think you have a WiFi capable dildo.

well cuz they are amazing pieces of technology that are capable of running intense computational calculations and have multiple connectivity options but i regard them as toys because in my mind they exist just for messing around. but i know some people would disagree and say something like: well they are toys for you cuz you dont know how to properly use them.

So you're saying that you do have a WiFi capable dildo?

I guess it's just someone hiding in your house.

For the first month I lived in my current dorm building the lights were misconfigured to turn on after 15 minutes of inactivity. It took an entire fucking month for them to figure out how to update the database that exists for some fucking reason.

i love "toys" that can connect to the internet

🤔

Temperature differences and a draught can do this.

For instance, if the lights are in a cool hallway and there is warm air leaking from a warmer room.

The one in my hallway turns on when my neighbour across the landing opens his front door. It had me baffled until I saw that my own door moves ever so slightly due to the air displacement, and that is what triggers the PIR.

Don’t you have to adjust them for the seasons?

Calibrating infrared sensors anywhere they could be exposed to environment light would be a nuisance. You’d have different values for darkness all year long.

"Darling, why is our ceiling trying to murder demons again?"

I'm sorry Linda, did you want the pansy ass ceiling fan that can't murder demons?

I bricked a lightbulb yesterday while trying to flash open-source firmware

Imagine saying this only 5~10 years ago. Even then, people would be giving you a serious wtf look.

Haha. I am sure even today a lot of people would do that.

You live in this house too?

because you used the switch instead of telling Google, AGAIN

Or the, “You’re not still running the stock firmware on your internet connected thermostat are you?”

laughs in OTP memory

Custom firmware guys.

Or the have it run Linux guys.

I'd say this is almost always not true. Makes for a fun joke, but really, most programmers are also technophiles, and the paranoid "nobody can ever have my data, not even myself" guys are a very vocal minority.

I definitely fall into the luditte side of the equation. Coding and troubleshooting all day so the last thing i want to dink around with at home is more tech and the problems it creates while trying to solve other problems.

I'm with you there.

I'd definitely like to make my own smart home web api because I'd like the ability to control all lights and power, etc. remotely, because I'll be damned if it's closed-source and connected to Google, Amazon or an even shadier company. Plus it'd be fun.

But I'm so burned out by the time I'm home with free time, I just go full vegetable.

That's why I opt for the Google home and Chromecast and hue etc

It works with almost no setup, no dicking around

Some projects are cobbled together pi stuff with soldered wires running through things though

Yeah, I have a hue, I guess someone could figure out my occupancy patterns using it, but the kind of folks who have that kind of capability (facebook, russian hackers) and the kind of folks who'd want it (local thieves, mostly, I guess) don't have a huge overlap.

Like, if the russian mob doubles down on petty break-ins I guess I'll start to worry, but...

OTOH, I refuse to plug my 'smart tv' into an ethernet jack or give it the wifi password.

Yeah, I have a hue, I guess someone could figure out my occupancy patterns using it, but the kind of folks who have that kind of capability (facebook, russian hackers) and the kind of folks who'd want it (local thieves, mostly, I guess) don't have a huge overlap.

Like, if the russian mob doubles down on petty break-ins I guess I'll start to worry, but...

OTOH, I refuse to plug my 'smart tv' into an ethernet jack or give it the wifi password.

Yeah the area I live in currently is more along the lines of "teens on meth" tier crime.

So, there is an unofficial philips hue api refrence and the entire setup can work LAN only. Raspberry Pi running an MQTT server is the root of my in-home automations, and firewall is set to block certain vlans & clients from accessing the broader internet.

Hue's are good, I just don't want certain data leaving the LAN, especially if it doesn't need to.

I'm pretty sure mine are running LAN only, but most of my other devices are 'real computers' of varying degrees, where I somewhat trust them to not get completely pwned if they are exposed to the internet. I trust the lightbulbs slightly less than the windows box, assuming the router gets breached (or, maybe more likely, a guest brings an infected node into my little paradise).

How was the RPi setup? I like the Hue, but have found the triggers they provide to be a little limited. Not enough state. I'd like to be able to say 'this button puts us in movie mode, while in movie mode ignore motion sensor inputs,' for example, which didn't seem easy to express in the app.

Movie mode was was what made me want to do this in the first place.

MQTT is like twitter for embeded things: its a protocol with a publish/subscribe model, meaning any device on my iot vlan connected to the MQTT server can publish a message to a topic, and any device that is subscribed to that topic will get a notification. For some devices, like my motorized projector screen, the device is a nodemcu wired to an extra remote that I've coded to respond to certain MQTT messages like 'lower', 'raise', or 'status' (state). The code is in arduino but is fairly simple.

Some devices don't speak MQTT directly so the pi has to subscribe to some of the topics and relay messages; i.e. if my media center is turned off and a movie mode message is posted the pi sends a wake-on-lan packet, if the media center is on it's got a service running that can listen to MQTT directly; my projector responds to pjlink, and similarly the pi translates MQTT messages to hue restapi calls.

In addition to running the MQTT server (or, broker), the pi is also running a webserver in node that acts as a simple GUI. Devices on my LAN with the correct credentials can access this page (phone, tablet, laptop) and push html buttons which correspond to different commands.

Yes, it's more work than plug-n-play but it's a hobby for me, and much easier to set up than it seems in the onset. It's also heavily configurable as I can add in any device with a network connection & api. Here's a nice overview of MQTT

I don’t mind- until I got my WiFi coffee pot from my BF. The firmware wouldn’t update and it pissed me off so much I had him reset everything and get it going. He doesn’t even like our lightbulbs.

That’s why I never buy into it unless it’s plug and play with almost no effort.

Smart speakers? I like em. Individually controlled lights and smart plugs? Pass.

Oh, so you're for a redistributtion of the wealth created by new technologies easing production to the original workers as well ?

Settle down there Che Guevara. How did you get to ‘wealth redistribution’ and ‘workers’ from “i don’t have an Alexa”?

Well you said that you're on the luddite side. You know what a luddite is right ?

There are two meanings. The one i meant was ‘A person that is opposed to adopting new technology’, which should have been obvious in the given context.

It was, and I made a joke on that using the second meaning to create surprise at first and then a smile when realizing where it comes from.

The Luddites were ye olde versions of laid off factory workers that post racist Facebook memes.

That's a textbook definition of class contempt you got here.

You're goddamn right it is. The future has no place for the excessively stupid. Especially the racist ones.

Chalk me down for a member of the vocal minority

[deleted]

Exactly. You know all these dystopian scifi stories where some megacorp gives away revolutionary devices that makes your life incredibly easier by plugging into your brain, but come at the price of giving away your free will? Yeah, I'd be the first one to sign up for those.

Seriously though, what's important is being aware of all the data you're giving away. It's not an inherently bad thing if you know what's happening, and in many cases it's actually useful.

As for actual security risks, it's a bit harder to be knowledgeable about that, but if you're a programmer you should have an idea of who you can and can't trust, and how to get the relevant information to make up your mind.

But they'll send you advertisements for things their algorithm says you're interested in!

Yeah, the latter is just all people who don't want to spend money on needless things that also are listening to you and can be potentially hacked.

although I do have an arlo :(

My wife wanted it.

it's useless.

They can also be both. Loving modern technology and taking care that their private info doesn't end up in a data dump.

Of course, I'm just saying that most aren't paranoid about introducing tech into their personal lives, and a lot are even excited to do so. Not to mention that they're knowledgeable enough to know what to be wary off if they're concerned about security and privacy.

Honeywell makes a thermostat that can run doom

You know what happens if my smart lights misbehave?

I fucking unplug them. That's it, guys. That's all it fucking takes.

Until they learn how to unplug you (° ͜ʖ°)

Until they learn how to ~~un~~plug you (° ͜ʖ°)

Kinky lights.

But DOOM is open source now, so wouldn't making it run DOOM fall under this category?

Doomba, the script for turning your Roomba data into a Doom level!

/r/canitrundoom

/r/itrunsdoom

Precisely what I expected.

That printer is going to start speaking

I know one of those. He built a whole side house for his...work?

Bill Gates has a smart house too.

That still involves removing 90% of the original functionality.

As far as I know you can play Doom on Honeywell thermostat

My smart fridge runs doom

... Can a smart thermostat run doom?

Im sure it has the hardware but the software?

Isn't any of that smart house crap the same as Alexa and Google assist? Why'd OP say it twice?

Doom on the refrigerator!

Does anybody knew, AI can be conscious? If so, when it happens what year?, bcause I have to load a bunch of shotgun for preparation

I'm not a tech geek, but I'm quite scared about our fast-growing tech

Ya, but even those guys don't just turn over control of important stuff in their lives to tech they themselves haven't already tinkered with and kinda made sure of. Many tech fans just blindly trust whatever the megacorp wants to sell them is going to work fine and is perfectly safe, because it's not like they would spy on their customers or use them as clueless beta testers, right?

I mean, a guy made a car run Doom a few years ago

Someone managed to port Linux and Android 1.6 to my calculator at some point. I'm impressed and also wondering "why the fuck...‽" Unfortunately haven't installed either (yet?) cause I want to actually use it as a calculator

Yep, that’s my cousin. Has no interest in anything modern past the point of showing me how it now can play e1m1.

Hell yeah. Made my iPod colour run doom. You couldn't even play it but I felt like such a hacker.

I even remember modding the power bar into a penis that would grow the more it was charged.

I don't do anything like that any more, but I saw some kid like half my age put it on his AppleWatch and it was beautiful. I could see myself in that kid so much. Showing off to his mates knowing full well you can't play it. It was just the point of putting it on there.

/r/itrunsdoom

Also as a bunch we a re a lot more tolerant to system bugs and failure than other people.

A medic coming back from a shift in the middle of the night to his door lock running out of batteries won’t be thinking “Can’t this notify me for replacement before running out? I’ll check IFTT or otherwise set an alarm for the next time”

Has anyone run doom on a refrigerator yet?

Or the stuff 4 petabytes of bad data into the advertising app guys.

Hey! That's me!

So what the fuck happens when it runs doom and some asshole types in IDKFA? Does the internet connected safe open and publish an event to a blockchain somewhere?

But will it run Crysis?

r/itrunsdoom

Nowadays they’re the “make it run Debian” guys.

Sysadmins: Already shot the printer. Because fuck printers.

Fuck printers.

They aren't even my responsibility but I still have days entirely filled with printer related problems. :(

"I can optimize a query that took 12 minutes to run down to sub 10 seconds. Yet here I am crashing in somebody else's chair for hour number three trying to make this fucking driver work. Yup. Definitely my idea of a good time."

Fuck printers so much.

Reasons the printer doesn't work

-Corrupt Driver

-Low Ink

-Mechanical Failure

-Disconnected Wire

-It exists

-You exist and it doesn't like that

-Because you swore at it

-Because you didn't swear at it enough

​

To summarize: fuck printers.

~~-Because you swore at it~~

~~Because you didn't swear at it enough~~

You didn't anoint the sacred oils on the machine spirit or praise the Omnissah

FTFY

No blood sacrifice to the Omnissah? No working printer for you.

There was that one guy on here who’s co-worker took his joke literally and stuffed it with raw steak so....

Engage the linkage, Omnissiah!

Level up your technical knock skill and give it a good smack.

Percussive repair fixed a printer for me once. Sat there working on the damn thing for an hour and a half trying to find out why the track was stuck. Got so fed up I said "fuck it, let's try this" and just gave the thing a hard slap. 5 seconds of grinding-ish sounds and suddenly the thing is printing perfectly.

5 test copies and I decided it was good enough for me. Didn't need to touch it until it needed the cyan replaced... to print black and white. Damn printers.

Ohh I have gallons of oils for that.

But are they the essential type?

Nah, i sell non-essential oils. The kind that drip out of my car. If you drink them they cure headaches pretty quick though.

  • In the middle of a satanic ritual

  • It noticed you are in a hurry

  • It's out of out of color ink but its a W/B or Toner printer.

Restart cups. No? Buy a new one, the printer is broken.

New printer now has driver issues. You download the driver from the manufacturers support page, but now you can't get it to do a test print.

Literally what happened to me last week.

It was the typewriters final "fuck you" to humanity.

All hail the ommnissaiah!

I seems like the last man capable of writing printer drivers perished around 2002.

Preach it brother, preach it

Fuck printers! Had to spent a whole day troubleshooting a printer that randomly printed the queued jobs, and it did it in a way that it printed parts of the jobs then jumped to other jobs on the queue

A fucking driver that was incompatible AF was the issue, had to practically go into a bin of old discs and misc stuff to find a driver that was like from Win XP era to make it work as intended

Reminds me of that time I needed to print a form. Printing from my Windows pc my printer only printed the lines on which I was supposed to write. From my Linux laptop it only printed the text. Had to download some obscure HP app and print from my phone to get it to work.

Even tried to print twice on the same piece of paper but apparently the two drivers align the document differently.

He was actually fired for keeping printers operational through the two year warranty period.

printers have always been kind of a hard sell as far as engineering goes. like, there's a reason that electronics have drifted towards solid-state design. a printer is the opposite of solid state. it's one of those machines that's, like, dynamic state. it's like when Andy Capp fights his wife. it's just a cloud of moving parts with 0.01mm tolerances.

Fortunately, he was able to integrate EpsonNagWare into the drivers before he died. Otherwise I'd never know when I'm at 75% Cyan ink capacity.

Yeah, that formula that tells us how full the cartridge is, since actually measuring the ink level would make it too easy to refill empty cartridges for a fraction of the highly marked up cost of OEM cartridges.

They didnt die, they grew up, graduated high school, and moved out of their mothers basement.

My current printer is a HP Laserjet 2100. It's a goddamn workhorse - made in the days when an HP printer was worth a damn. I actually purchased a NIC for it from eBay, so now it's a networked printer. Sure, it makes the lights dim a little bit every time it prints, but whatever. Stupid thing just works.

Meanwhile, my friendss brand new ink or laser printers seem to have a conniption fit every time it turns on.

r/talesfromtechsupport

Just toss in a multifunction printer so you can rip out your hair. FUCK those things.

People look at me like I'm nuts for having a blind hatred of printers, but I know their true, horrific, form. They're the most amazing things in some aspects and maybe that's why they suck so hard.

And especially IP printers!

Imagine beeing a printer manufacturer and thinking,

"you know how printers are fucking terrible already, how could we make them worse?" and someone else pipes up

"lets a touch screen!"

"Thats fucking brilliant, you are now the new CEO!"

Fuck printers.

hope you mean add the cheapest touchscreen in existance, one that has to be hit by a crowbar in order to register a touch. oh, and make the whole interface gesture-based. push buttons are the past, virtual sliders are the future

And it needs to have a delay perfectly tuned to human reaction. So that it's not instant, it's not too slow, just right so that when the display changes you press again, accidentally launching some 900 year long diagnostic tool.

only connects to via BT, only controlled by a mid-2000s voice recognition system, in the cloud

Problem list for desktop support in desc order: 1) Printers 2) Docking stations 3) Windows privileges 4) Language shortcut (in Canada it switches the keyboard to french) 6) UPS' 7) People clicking links, downloading personal email, plugging in random USBs and downloading malware 8) No security framework or awareness to prevent malware 9) Network cable unplugged 10) People spilling on keyboards

DNS seems to be missing

[deleted]

DNS should be #1. Its always DNS then a printer problem.

Source: Just spent a half hour solving a DNS issue for a printer.

Ahhh I forgot about that... I'm surprised I forgot about that lol

I had two days filled with printer problems. Like each of the bloody bastards wanted their own spot in the limelight! It even followed me home! My own printer had a hangup that same evening... The whole thing is rigged I tell you... RIGGED

I install home HiFi, cinemas and control systems networking etc.

Every fucking install I get the “while your here would it be possible for you to look at my printer?”

I shudder every single time.

I straight up refuse to do printers. We have some on site printers I have to support, but I get people calling me about their home printers and I'm like, "sorry check the manufacturer support." Not like I'd be much help anyway, every printer in existence has it's own firmware. Like even model to model on the same manufacturer. Every time some one brings up a printer though I'm full of instant dread of what's going to happen next.

Seriously, if we had allowed whoever wrote network printer drivers to write TCP/IP, or HTTPS, or any of the internet protocols, the internet would be a flaming pile of shit right now, and probably would have died out as a fad years ago.

Why does it seem like printers are always broken. It seems I’m the only one in the office to report the faults to my IT team but printer issues are all too common.

Is it due to the heavy use/demand on the printers. Or are they just poorly optimised network devices?

Printers are made for profit.

Printer ink is like the most expensive liquid you can buy. But to manufacture it costs about 0.05$ or so.

Printers are sold at loss because they wsnt you to buy the ink instead.

And lastly, it feels like whoever makes printer software just have no clue on how to make it work with other stuff.

Yesterday all of our Chrome books magically forgot how to access our printers, so that will be a fun one to figure out today.

What sorts of issues do people have with printers? I'm relatively low-tier IT (Tier 0 "help desk"), but we rarely have issues outside of no funds (on the user's account) or printers not mapping. We have 5 black HP LaserJet 450n's shared with about 90+ computers.

This is coming from a place of curiosity, not animosity, btw.

I work on a site with 500 people, about 25 full size office printers and who knows how many desksize network and usb connected ones. As well as 20 or so barcode printers.

I am the only technician on site, working tier 2/3, our helpdesk is located at our main site.

Printer problems involve driver issuses, font problems, stuck jobs in queues. These are the most common, but with about 400 people with zero knowledge about computers and printers anything can happen.

The barcode printers are the worst by far, they have so much that can go wrong both soft and hardware wise.

I'm thankful then that we use system images for all of our desktops, so no driver issues other than wrong driver currently in the lab (using a generic driver that doesn't support duplex).

Our network services department just swapped out print servers/printing account trackers, so that's the most likely cause of a generic driver getting used. :/

Thankfully though, we don't have many issues with printers and as I said above it's mostly lack of funds on the user's account to print.

Wait. So professionals hate printers too? That makes my layman self feel a loy better

Yes, you are allowed to rejoice. Printers are just fucked up, don't let them control you any longer.

You are the one in charge. If a printer hands you lemons, burn that fucker down with combustible lemons.

My printer shows errors more often than it actually prints things. I don't understand how printers are the one thing this society can just not make. We can make 3D printers that have fewer issues than inkjet or laser printers.

I am our staff accountant at work and because I worked at a computer repair shop over a decade ago I still get stuck dealing with the printers, so I am with you on the fuck printers thing.

That's even worse. I at least work as an IT technician, but we got a support contract with the supplier of the printer.

It's just that it might take 1-2 hours or more for them to get here, so people call on me to see if I can fix it instead.

I don't want too, but they always say it's vital for the production and I don't want to be the one who's keepi g the production line down.

I manage manufacturing and business-related things at the top level (small business) and sometimes my days are the same...

Fuck printers.

"Your printer wants to to know your location"

'fuck'

They are coming for us. Get the bookend reports ready, it stops them everytime!

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Never show fear or urgency infront of the printers. They can smell it miles away and will do everything they can too ruin your life.

I cannot agree more. Why can't they just be better?

Because Ricoh and HP is a bastard man

Funny thing, 3D printers are easier to install.

How about replacing the printer with a Raspberry Pi controlled typewriter?

Can't, my pi is busy making my toaster dance.

"R PI LOAD LETTER", what the fuck does that even mean!?

Finally, I can save my progress once I get some ink ribbons.

I haven't been responsible for printers for over 5 years now. I don't miss it one bit. I'm actually working at the for St company ever where the printers seem to "just work", even for me who is known in the office as the human "chaos monkey" due to my ability to find bugs by doing exactly the same things as everyone else. Tech just breaks around me. These printers haven't and it's freaky. I daren't ask how/why because that's when they'll break.

Holy crap, I worked for this one place, the finance manager ordered a new printer without telling me.. I was the IT manager...

I got a call saying all phones were down across our 3 locations. After a couple hours onsite of the main location I see this massive printer in the art department.

Damn thing had it's own DNS server on board and it was killing all IP based traffic... Did I say across all 3 locations?

Oh and this was during our busy season, and we relied heavily on phone sales....

The rise of shitty $100 printers is and remains a plague upon the IT world..

I agree. This one though was a bit more. It was a special printer for the art department to print negatives to be made into screens for screen printing.

And they bypassed IT? Jesus that should never happen, you can’t just hook shit up to the network like that.

Yeah I was the sole IT guy for a large tee shirt company. Finance manager didn't like me, I'm assuming because of my budget.

She rented a printer and had the vendor come in and set it up when I was at another location.

Company went under about a year after.

The value companies put on IT, or lack of it, is shocking. I see so many places that are one system outage from thousands upon thousands of dollars in damage, not to mention the hit to their reputation.

But they never seem to care. Such is life.

Rather write fucking code or set up servers than troubleshoot printers.

Why do they STILL suck so much. Say what you will about Apple and shit but I wish they made a printer with one button that just works all the damn time.

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That’s because they are the spawn of Satan.

God, fuck printers.

There was this one time I went to use a wireless printer I had never used before. I used the "discover network printers" feature on Win 10.

AND. IT. JUST. WORKED.

I just wanted to share my most unbelievable tale with you. I assure you this truly happened. Thanks for reading.

My first gig out of school.. JR unix admin which included fixing local and remote printer queues on Solaris and SCO unix servers...

F^%$% Printers...

Oh god... I used to maintain a whole mess of AIX printer queues... Jesus Christ the windows guys thought they had it bad, fucking printer..

Web Dev: why the fuck did I spend two weeks discovering that your FedEx printer doesn't work with FedEx software, but the UPS printer does...

Printers are just there to sell you ink. Any functionality beyond that is not officially supported.

If your printer takes ink instead of toner, I’m setting it on fire.

Not 3D printers though. They seem to just work.

Richard Stallman founded the GNU over shitty printer drivers.

Fuck printers.

As someone studying for my a+, yes, fuck printers

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I have one, as legally I have to be able to provide a printed invoice. It lives under pain of death.

Also it’s a half decent HP laserjet that sits on a local PC. About as painless as you can get.

Thanks for bringing back my printer PTSD.

As phone guy: fuck fax printers.

Urgh. I also do VoIP... oh and most of my clients are either medical or financial :/.

Recently found out that I have a printer that by default has 15 ports opened. Shut it down, took my old Xerox and cable

Any tips on getting a printer that doesn’t fingerprint the printouts?

Edit: what I meant...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Identification_Code

https://www.eff.org/issues/printers

Well for business? Don’t buy one at all.. lease a good Richo, HP, or Fujitsu from a quality printing company that offers a solid SLA and pay per page printed.

For home, get a half decent laserjet (do NOT buy inkjet) from a good brand. I like HP. You’re gonna spend at least a couple hundred bucks, so if that’s not worth it to you then find a local copy centre and use them instead. And get the branded toner refills... yes they’re a rip-off, but they also don’t destroy your printer.

Oh and buy high quality paper. Shitty stuff flakes apart inside the printer and gums everything up, which will fuck it up real fast. Paper is cheaper than a new printer.

"Have you tried downloading the HP_Smart app?" - Last Words of My Printer

I worked in a Deli in NY. I never ate in a Deli in NY.

I live in Delhi, India. I never ate at a deli in India.

I live in Delhi, NY. I ate at a deli that serves Indian food.

I work for Dell, in India. Our deli serves Native American cuisine.

I work for a man in Nantucket Who feeds us lunch in a bucket Like water it is As runny as piss So through a straw I do suck it.

Nice. Curry sandwich please.

I ate in Delhi... and got typhoid which kicked in on the long ass plane back to London

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where can i buy the best salmon in americA? i have been eating fake red meat all this time

late, but having worked in the alaska salmon industry for a couple years, i can give you a couple quick tips.

1) if it’s out of season (june-september/october) it’s more than likely been frozen since then. do what you will with that information.

2) if it’s not specifically labeled red/sockeye, silver/coho, or king/chinook salmon, it’s more than likely to be pink salmon which is by far the lowest grade species of pacific salmon there is. meat is literally like mush. it’s the kind of shit they grind up for dog food and fertilizer.

i know nothing about atlantic salmon, but my info above applies to all pacific salmon since it all comes from alaska or washington anyway.

thanks for the reply. I'll be on the look out for legit salmon. Ordering online is expense ( up to $40 -$50 a lbs!)

Says more about that deli then really

I worked at Panera. I don't eat at Panera.

Yeah, but they have great plates! Definitely worth adding to a home collection.

SO IT WAS YOU STEALING THE PLATES!

Damn skippy! Perfect size and durable! Hell I would buy them if they sold them.

The melamine plates I assume? Because those things are pretty difficult to break. Though we managed just the same.

IDK the material, but they were a perfect oval shape & did they take abuse, washing, and just massive use. A little big to sneak out, but hey when the garbage is right by the exit door. Seriously, people loved em. Put a suggestion in to sell them with a meal. They'll will make a mint & you should get 10% from each sale!

Not even 2nd Ave deli?

I didn't say NYC! When it comes to Long Island, it gets a little more risky the further you go out. YMMV.

Well yeah there's a big difference between "Delis in New York" and "New York Delis".

It's really amazing to me that in my lifetime NYC has gone from a very neglected and rough city to such a rich and wonderful place. By rich I don't mean just expensive (omg, you could've bought entire buildings in the 70's for what just an apartment goes for now! ), but I mean rich in culture. You always had MoMA, Broadway, etc., but now it's great to see a new younger generation make it a world class city.

Relevent XKCD

"our entire field is bad at what we do" is my favorite line ever

The problem with this line of thought is that I had an issue where I felt like I was falling behind everybody else at work because it wasn't clicking. Everyone just laughed and said that's how everyone feels, imposter syndrome etc.

Except I really was behind.

My boss came to me about low performance and I eventually ended up leaving the job partly (about 40%) because I had completely lost confidence in my ability. It felt like I was supposed to be confused but I was still too confused and the whole thing just made me anxious.

Maybe only tangentially related but it just made me unsure of how far behind I was and I could never be sure of who to talk to for help without getting overly serious. Or whether I actually needed to know something, and I couldn't just keep asking people. Eventually you just feel like a dead weight if you ask for too much help.

I know it's also my fault, but it just bothered me a bit. I love programming but I don't know if I want it to be my job anymore.

It can be really hard to talk to people who are extremely intelligent, when trying to assess your relative competence, because the point at which you'd become confused would necessarily be different if you have different intelligence levels or aptitude. I'm not saying you're less intelligent than others who made you feel like everyone's confused, but if that were the case it would help explain their blase attitude. They simply believed you knew what they knew, which is difficult to quantify in a casual conversation. I suppose the solution would be to have a serious conversation with someone you'd guess is of similar intellect, cite specific examples of things you're not understanding, and see if they aren't either.

Of course, since this is all in the past, it won't fix the problem in your anecdote.

Nah, that totally was the problem.

But yeah, I think the problem was that I started on the wrong foot and never caught up, so my takeaway is that I'll just make sure to not let that happen next time.

I'm now aware of how everybody claims they're behind so I'm going to work harder to make sure we're actually on the same page.

Programming is not about "knowing" things. As a programmer you should focus on problem solving. Yes, there are people with encyclopedic knowledge of their domain, but that isn't that common and isn't really that important at most levels (it can be very useful at an architectural level, but that probably isn't the level you're working at.)

Don't think of programming as "studying for the test." You can't prepare yourself for every hypothetical problem you might encounter.

The advice I would give you is, when you give up on finding a solution. Stop. Go for a walk. Come back and try again. Try different angles. Try thinking about it in another way. Don't ask for help until you're completely out of ideas. If you always look for help right away you're not going to learn what you really need to learn, and that is problem solving.

Or, more succinctly, you'll stop needing help when you stop asking for it.

Don't ask for help until you're completely out of ideas

While this is good advice, for a lot of things you can look up a solution that works well and then learn how it worked so you can apply it yourself in the future.

I'd say the majority of knowledge you need as a programmer is where and how to find the solution. If you do that, and make sure you also understand the solution when you use it, you will naturally become a better programmer.

I'm a junior at my current company and I ask at least one question every day most questions are customer related for tasks ext but I also ask some programming questions when I'm stuck and start to bounce ideas between me and my team this often ends in me being very confused and them having way to advanced answers for my question but after a bit of talking I usually come up with a solution myself instead.

Check out rubber duck debugging, just talking out loud can sometimes help you find a solution. Even in chat to others they don’t need to even respond and more often then not it will spark an idea. I don’t know the science behind it but it’s surprisingly helpful.

Essentially put your ideas down or say them out loud, you might surprise yourself.

Learning how to use tools (documentation, source code, stack overflow, etc.) is part of solving the problem; I definitely don't mean "stare at the code blankly trying to magically understand." Frequently enough the person you go to for help is going to google it and see what the internet says, unless it is very simple. You can skip that step and just learn to do it yourself.

But, fair point.

But that is problem-solving. You’ll always be looking up other people’s solutions and figuring out which one is the best fit for your case and why, how to modify it to make it work for your situation, etc. Unless you’re looking up how to create a barebones app or integrate some api, most likely any solution you find would need to be tailored to your specific case. It’s not cheating.

I was more adding on to his comment in case someone took "don't ask for help" literally

Something I've noticed in terms of a school/work environment,

It is a competition. Even if it isnt. People want to be better than other people.

Know the intelligent student that joked about how they "havent even touched" that paper/project due tomorrow? They definitely have at least been thinking about it and working it out in their head- they're not nearly as unprepared as they seem.

It isnt always malicious, but it can be. Sometimes people will feign behind-ness or incompetence to make another person feel better/okay with their current level. If they were to show that they were on the right track and have progress made in x, y, z, thatd be an indication to the behind person that they need to catch up/work harder, which would ultimately result in closer competition.

See also: medical/law students lying to each other about notes/tests/ feigning lack of confidence to make the others feel at ease.

I'm not suggesting everyone was lying to you intentionally to get you behind, but you should definitely always strive to be above status quo, especially considering everyone else is trying to do the same.

There was a rumor around Cornell that students would take out relevant pages/chapters from library books before exams, either to have it themselves or to keep others from being able to study.

That's called the curse of knowledge btw

The whole idea of intelligence is sort of strange. There are so many variable useful parts of the brain. Like memory can be fast, accurate, descriptive and/or sizable. Being intelligent doesn't require all of these traits but more help. At the same time if you and someone else have differing traits does that make your intelligence better or worse than the other.

It's 2am so I'll just say, intelligence is incredibly hard to quantify and judging yourself off others usually leads to bad results. So examine how your mind tends to work and make things work around that.

Honestly, people who are both really intelligent and experienced (tech leads, software engineering leads) should have learned pretty early in their career that people understand things at different rates.

People get confused at different stages, never assume that they understand something. When someone asks for help, start from the most basics. Explain the problem from the beginning, talk through starting at the most basic step, it's the person teaching's responsibility to do this while it's the person seeking help's responsibility to interrupt where they feel confused. If you don't like this then don't be a lead imo

I feel like some really intelligent people fall into this trap where they want to show off how smart they are so they start by assuming the other person is as smart and explain things that are way over their head without bothering to ask if they understand the basics.

Source: I was a math tutor in college... I spent a lot of time going over stuff that the student was just not ready for. I quickly realized to start at the very basics and work my way up until I determined where they were struggling.

[deleted]

You don’t seriously believe that, do you?

[deleted]

I’m not saying it makes you more special or better than anyone or even that there aren’t different types of intelligence, but trying to say there aren’t more intelligent or less intelligent people in the population is just completely wrong.

[deleted]

Believe whatever you want, dude. I work in a neuroscience lab at a Tier 1 Research University, and I am surrounded by people (not me) whose minds work on a completely different level. They didn’t get where they are just because they worked hard. Don’t get me wrong, they do work hard, but the vast majority of people couldn’t do what they do no matter how much time they invested.

[deleted]

What? Not even them...what?

And we do talk about intelligence. A lot. Anyone working in the field of neuroscience knows that brains work very differently from person to person, so no one would say that a brain is just a physical organ - no different than a liver or kidney. We as a species have shockingly little understanding of how the brain actually functions, whereas the heart, liver, kidney, are very well-understood and honestly operate with fairly simple mechanical, electrical, or biochemical mechanisms.

You seriously think the MD/PhD I’m working for honestly doesn’t think he’s more intelligent that 99.7% of the people in the world? Because he definitely does. He’s a bit arrogant so he might overestimate it somewhat but he’s generally right.

[deleted]

So you believe that some people aren't just wired to process information more efficiently and that if people were given the exact same raising as far as instilled habits, dietary needs met, and school background then we would all be equally as able to process the same information in the same way at the same pace?

[deleted]

Then how do you explain differences in physical characteristics?

[deleted]

No, hair and eye color, metabolic rates, height.

Um, ok. If you're talking about race, whatever you're thinking it's wrong. Eye color, height, skin color?? We are not separate races ..

I didn't bring up skin color for that reason. I didn't want you to think I was trying paint you with a racist brush. I'm legitimately curious as to how you explain the differences in physical characteristics

Environment, diet, social practices, pollution, etc. These all play roles in physical characteristics and carry over in new generations. As far as I know there is no 'intelligence' gene.

https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/traits/intelligence

Lots of studies linked there. The totality of the research in the field indicates that ~50% of the difference in intelligence among individuals has a genetic basis.

Dude, you realize this guy is straight up insane, right? He thinks if you workout and go to bed on time, you’ll suddenly discover the 4th dimension?

I’m with you 100% here, and having been through academia in an Ivy League I’ve seen a stoner breeze through medical school and then do 2 PhD’s before settling on one thing.

What kind of programming? And what kind of math knowledge and education do you have?

I just have a degree in Computer Science.

Since leaving I've travelled a bunch and I've a huge interest in linguistics so I'm thinking of branching into that. Maybe get a degree/masters in that and then try and combine the two into some sort of language processing job if I can find one.

Thankfully I'm also super lucky that I'm a native English speaker, so if worst comes to worst I can just teach that. I'm also lucky that my accent is easy to understand, so a lot of ESL people have commented on that.

I don't think I'm completely lost, but I'm just not sure if I should continue a career in software. Maybe I'm only good enough for it to be a hobby. Thankfully, working in software really boosted my social skills (unlike how everybody seems to say it is) so that's opened up a number of career opportunities.

I really just wanted to rant a bit about how "nobody knows what they are doing" gets annoying when you really don't know what you are doing.

Hey, I just wanted to say that I've somewhat been through the same as you.

I didn't get that far, but I studied programming for two years. After a while i realised that I could never do it as anything more than a hobby so I quit and moved to linguistics because that was my second biggest interest (I'm not a native English speaker but I'd like to think I'm not half bad).

So now I graduated university with a degree in English and German and am currently an English teacher in a private company. It's not all that bad, if I can say so myself, and it opens up plenty of opportunities to work wherever you want.

Well from your comment here your English is very natural!

Thank you very much :)

As a former ESL teacher myself I think you're selling yourself short by saying you're 'super lucky' to be able to do it. You have a degree in computer science and interest in pursuing linguistics at the graduate level. Unless you deeply believe ESL/EFL teaching specifically is your calling, there is a hell of a lot more you can accomplish, even at a worst case scenario.

I mean I am incredibly lucky. There's a lot of good TEFL jobs around the world. If I want to spend a year in a country and learn the language/culture/eat the food, I can get a job quite easily.

And not to get into anything touchy, but I've a huge advantage also in that I'm an alright looking white male. As far as visuals go I'm set for certain areas that might otherwise turn people down. I've spoken to a few English people with Indian/Chinese parents that mentioned how hard it was to find TEFL work because they didn't "look English".

Like I don't want to go on a tangent about "privilege", but travelling around Asia has shown me that I definitely have a lot of things that others don't, which has made me much more appreciative.

Can I ask to what extent you felt lost?

​

What kind of issues were really common for you? Was it mostly do to internal tools/software/protocol or was it for using popular frameworks or something?

​

To a certain extent your job is to know how to google something correctly unless its something internal in which case they have to explain it to you if they haven't properly documented it.

​

I just had a meeting with someone over our API security where at the end the guy told me that all the questions I had means that his team has to work harder to properly communicate what they've done since it's something that is used in almost everything in our company on the development side.

It's all in the past now.

I know where I went wrong and what to do in the future. It just annoys me how everybody acts like they're behind so much that it's hard to know where they really are.

To me it was just such an issue because it only emphasised how people with little knowledge can be dangerous. If you say you don't know when you do, I'm going to listen to the guy that says he does know even if he doesn't.

Not a HUGE issue, but something I've only noticed I programming and I think it might be a bigger issue than people realise.

In my opinion software development has a giant dunning Kruger affect. The more you learn the more you realize there's a vast field of knowledge that you just can't equate too. Your knowledgeable with high level back end development and your main language is python? You can't touch people who are a regular contributor and help develop/mantain a OS.

Little do you know that they also can't do your back end server development. Everyone sees the other guy and sees what he can do, not realizing that he can't do what you can do.

Edit: TL;DR everyone sees themselves as bad programmers because they see what other programmers do that they can't.

What kind of programming were you doing

Oh yeah, it was a subject I didn't care about, which was probably why I fell behind.

The other issue I had was that it was in-house software with an in-house language so I found it hard to work on it on my own. Has to actually ask people which was a pain.

My biggest issue was that I didn't even know what I didn't know. I'm hoping that I can just start clean once I finish travelling. Find something that interests me more so I actually care more about it.

Or maybe go with a whole new career. Like I said, maybe I'm not good enough at programming for it to be anything more than a hobby. I'm able to accept that and move past it.

I just have a degree in Computer Science.

Oh is that all?

Well I have no other certifications like a java or dba cert etc.

I've just the college degree (and now 2 years experience). Pretty much the basics for working in the industry.

Hello u/Stormfly, I feel like i can relate to you.

What was your GPA in college if you don't mind me asking?

I have a 2.6 and I tried so hard, like I'm not even kidding and it hurts so much that my GPA sucks and I can't do anything to prove I'm not shitty. But I feel like i am because of that record and it's nothing I can do to change/fix it.

I was able to get a job after college because of my older brother working at the company I got a job at... But he's way smarter and maybe the expectations were higher. They do say I do a good job and I haven't had any complaints but I also interned there and was able to learn that way and I feel like my work now is just much more repetitive work that's pretty much the same as when I was an intern... So it's easy and laid back

I also feel like my coworkers are incredibly smart and sometimes I look at their work and am amazed at how smart they are and that I don't think I have that good of a knowledge to do their approach. I saw a coworker using matrixes to compute stuff to put in the database and I was super impressed because I would never have gone with that approach... Probably a less efficient one.

That and I never know what projects to do. I get an idea but some of my ideas are crazy and I never know where to start. I feel so overwhelmed with things I want to do or should learn or need to learn that I just end up not doing anything because I just can't decide.

I feel like i wont be very successful and finding a new job won't happen. I like programming but with all the poor grades I got in CS, I sometimes wonder if this is for me. I was hoping I can shine in the job market but I never received a phone call besides having that one connection...

I pulled through college because I enjoyed it, but I wish better. Maybe it should be a hobby for me too...

And I can't stress enough how much I actually tried, i did everything I could and still did poorly.

I got a 2.1 in college, but I was incredibly close to a 1st class honours. If a single exam had been a grade higher, I would have gotten one.

I didn't struggle in college, and the only time I fell behind was when I was distracted and didn't do the work, and had a few bad group projects, but I actually learned what to do and nipped it in the bud when it started to happen again the next year.

Like others have said, it was probably a lot to do with me not clicking with the job and I might do better at another one. I'm not worried anyway. I still have plenty of options.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but my brother also found it really hard to get work after he finished and he's way better than me. He's just rubbish at interviews. Thankfully he sorted it out. He actually got a job near me shortly before I quit.

Was a 2.1 good at your school? We wouldn't get any honous in my school unless we had a 3.5+

It sounds like you learn things easily and yeah it's probably just the with environment

You might be interested in computational linguistics.

I am. That's basically the "hobby" aspect I'm doing at the moment.

Just messing around with a bit of language processing and using it to work on my design patterns and general architecture. Could work as a portfolio when I look for a job.

Although I'm just travelling at the moment, so that's on pause. I don't have a PC with me.

I went on a 2 year slump at my previous job. I just couldn't get anything to work, and information was difficult to retain. I went from leading teams to being put under strict supervision. I eventually quit. 3 months later, I'm found a new job and I feel like a superstar again. Sometimes, the environment just sucks.

Yeah, maybe I'll be alright in a new job.

I'm definitely not worried anyway. I'm at a place where I have enough options that I don't feel cornered, and I saved up enough when I was working to be okay for a while.

I also don't have anybody relying on me so I'm very free to do whatever I want, which is really amazing when I think about how constrained other people are. Not everyone can just quit their job and travel the world, though I HAVE met a lot of people that have done that exact thing since I started travelling.

I was on a shitshow of a project a couple years ago. A small team of about 4 developers had been plugging along for several years while a massive backlog of work built up, then management caught wind and conscripted half the floor to help out. Nothing was documented, so figuring out how to implement anything was like a scavenger hunt. The code was shoddy and nothing was sensibly organized; the application just kept growing like a fucking tumor. They had all of us working on multiple versions of the same application (at one point I was even working on two phases at once for the same client), so keeping it all straight in my head was a challenge. By the end of that I was so depressed I literally felt retarded all the time.

They're still working on that backlog. Most everyone who got conscripted 2 years ago left the company entirely. I got lucky enough to end up on a project I had been on before that, while similar in some ways, at least had some technical direction and a reasonable client.

Im in High School planning to go into programming for a career and you just scared the everliving shit out of me.

Just don't fall behind. Easy peasy.

Seriously though, I say go for it if you like programming because it's a very flexible degree. Even if I don't work in programming ever again, I learned a lot through my degree and unlike the stereotype, I felt that it really helped my social and communication skills.

And like I said in other comments, I didn't like the area I was in, so if I want to I can move into another one. It was my first job out of college, so I'm still super naive. Maybe the next one will be amazing, others have said that happened for them. The same can happen in any career.

It's a field that's growing so much and is unlikely to die (though it might become saturated) and even if you don't want to stick with it, a degree in anything will get you certain jobs, and you can always take a Masters or other course in another subject to branch into it.

I'm very glad that I picked this degree. I'm just complaining about one tiny aspect, but the fact of the matter is that I had a job before graduation, worked it long enough to save up enough money to travel the world, and still have so many career opportunities available to me.

And it's still my hobby even if I don't work in it again. I really do enjoy it.

It was one pretty tiny complaint that I've admitted was also my fault. Shouldn't be something to be scared of, just be aware of it.

Don't fall into the same trap I did. At least now you've been warned about what can happen.

These issues are not specific to programming or IT. Any job has the potential to have a terrible environment.

The best environments are where you have people around you and everyone supports everyone else. Not every job you get will be this perfect ideal, though.

And just do what you want to do, don't get negative on something just because you read an anecdote on the Internet. You've got time.

I have no plans to stop learning cs, I just fear burn out, because there is nothing else I really want to do.

Trust me, 90% of people I know in the field are posers.

Like I spend evening doing a tutorial on blockchain. Went to our blockchain guru since I wanted to get his opinion on something. Guy had no answers. He knew the basics. We hired professor from University to help with ML. Client asked us to build something. Professor spend months without client. Nothing worked as intended. One of our engineers learned basics over the weekend and used framework - IT did exactly what we wanted it to do after a week. My friend is praised because she is a female got accepted to Google. I know for a fact that 3 months before I got hired to fix react app she could not handle, she had no aknowledge about basic design patterns or algorithms.

There is a good quote I like to repeat. Most people think that everyone else have life figured out.

Trust me. They don't. They lie, they cheat and they use social media to show highlights of their life. Covering all the failures.

Perhaps what you missed is the fact that you must do additional learning in the programming world on your own. You can't just fall behind and be content with that. You need to go home every night and study. Even if you are ahead, you have to study every night, because you won't be ahead in a few months. It is an ever changing field and those that don't self educate fall behind and eventually fall out.

I felt a similar way. Quit and found new job. Realized I was one of the brightest in the new office. Reminded me of a saying, in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. Just find a different application to work on, different company. You'll do fine. As of today, I'm still being fed grapes.

Sure, some of this may have been your fault. But it also could have been bad management running the show. Doesn't sound like anyone was helping you or aware of your progress. Instead everyone was laughing...

You could always get into tangential areas related to software, that might leverage your strengths a bit better! People make fun of sales, managers, etc, but fact is you know what it's like to be in the trenches. Take that experience, combine it with a different job, and you might just be the one ahead of others.

So I had a job like this, I’d had a very successful career up to hat point and that job just nothing worked for me mentally. I simply couldn’t understand the existing code base. I couldn’t get the stuff in they wanted. Lasted a couple months before we all agreed to split ways.

It was a huge hit to my self esteem, and I thought maybe I’d just lucked out my whole career.

Then I got the next job. Good management, good coworkers, and I went straight into one of the best reviews of my career.

What it taught me was that sometimes a particular job just isn’t the right one. It’s not always about skills or knowledge. Sometimes it’s true that people just can’t click with the rest of a group. Even friends. That the way the problems are being approached can just be too different to have enough strong communication to get things done. But it doesn’t mean either side is bad at what they do.

This is sometimes how I feel about my major (CE). I graduate in a month and LOVE the material, but I'm just not sure if I'm cut out for a real job. I feel so stupid at my internship and I don't feel confident that I know enough for the real world.

Yeah it almost becomes an inside joke that no one knows what they're doing...but when you really don't, you feel like you can't ask for help in any seriousness

Yes. This was what I was trying to say.

Your comment was way more succinct.

If you are new to your company that has existed for decades. Then, at least in my case, you can feel terribly bad. I think a lot of programming is about domain knowledge, something that you need to catch upto when you join a decades-old-company. For everyone, it's second-nature to them already. Takes awhile to catchup.

you just feel like a dead weight if you ask for too much help

As long as it's not the same question over and over... and also it's not questions that you can easily google on your own.

If it's questions about how the propietary company software works then the only place your going to learn that is 1) Ask a coworker 2) Pour over the code until you understand it as well as the original implementer. And repositories can easily get to a size where #2 isn't feasible because it would take you two weeks to understand a process that you could have understod and fixed in fifteen minutes by asking the right question to the right person.

Oof I'm sorry. I met a few people who were not very good at programming no matter how they tried. Something just wasn't clicking for them. I have no idea to this day what makes that click. If it helps its not just an "intelligence" :)

I think its a matter of how people approach problem solving. One of the best exercises I did was very early on in my college days, Programming 101, the professor came in and told us to put our laptops away and get out a sheet of paper. Then she told us to write down all the steps needed to go from sitting in our car to sitting at the kitchen table in our house. Every single person skipped at least 5 key steps that they just assumed would happen(taking your keys out of your car, pulling the latch to actually open the car door, closing the car door, little things like that). The point was to accentuate the fact that computers are extremely literal and when writing software you need to be in that mindset or you will end up with a ton of logical errors.

So if you can think like that and see the steps down to the smallest detail then you are all set but no one starts out that way. This type of thinking can be taught but I feel some people start at a better place than others just by how their brains work.

Stop comparing yourself to others. We're all. On our own time lines. You're only competition that you have is yesterday's you.

Comparison is the their of joy.

It's a good one, but I prefer the blockchain piece - not because of blockchain (which I know almost nothing about) but because any time I try to warn someone about something IT-ish, there is always a response like the one shown there. "Oh, we fixed that with ."

When you work long enough in this field, you learn that programming is like parenting.

We make this shit up as we go.

Of course it's the best part of this career. There are always so many different variant of a use case that the only real rules you can learn are the "best practice" of something.

And even that, change often enough because we realize something can be done better.

IT is in its infancy in terms of technology, it cannot be any other way right now.

I'd have to say that a large portion of that is that we are writing programs in fields we don't understand on systems we don't fully understand compiled on compilers we don't fully understand.

It's so much knowledge just to understand how a computer works and with all the abstraction it's almost impossible to know all the possible holes to fill or even how to. It's like trying to build a dam with bullet riddled swiss cheese.

My favorite is"wear gloves"

I don't like that line at all. I like XKCD, but that line gets under my skin.

Are architects bad at what they do because a malicious person can study the foundation, find the perfect place to place shaped charges and blow the whole thing down with one detonation?

Are Dam Builders bad at their job because someone can try to float three freighters down the river and it breaks?

Are race car drivers bad at their job is they run into a wall and explode because someone cut their brake lines?

We don't trust that sort of thing due to OTHER USERS... not because we have a lack of faith in our own ability.

I'm sorry I can't write something that works perfectly when dependencies start failing... A good house painter can't paint a house if their ladders missing. A parking attendant can't do anything if the garage collapses.

We would all have much more confidence in our products if we knew that the infrastructure was reliable, that the users would use it in a sane manner or at least expected manner, that malicious users weren't out there doing everything in their power to force some kind of failure...

These are not programmers being bad at their job.. it's working in an unpredictable uncontrolled environment.

our entire field is bad at what we do

50% bad at what we do 50% we don't know exactly what we're doing

[deleted]

Imagine if your Tesla was hacked and you were remotely driven to some shady place and mugged

Not sure I could be mad.

Yeah. It would be more like

Yeah, give them some tips after they mugged you. That's impressive.

Yeah but it's not like Elon even needs the money

Is not a question of need, but of want.

This will happen.

Oh, no doubt. But I still think it will be so rare, that the amount of lives saved by self-driving cars will make it worth it, casualties-wise.

In other words, it will cost some lives, but it will save more lives than it will take.

[deleted]

Reminds me of that scene from Minority report

That perfectly timed jump through a garden window going 60 vertically in a city built of steel. Lol.

It's still a good movie though.

Fully autonomous cars don't need a kill switch. Designed as defensive, automotive programming will automatically match speed with surrounding vehicles, so it takes at most 3 chase vehicles to stop an autonomous car - two on the sides and one to get in front and slow down. Fewer sides are necessary when other traffic limitations (dbl yellow line, median, shoulder) are available to limit maneuverability.

But that's also true for manual cars.

An escaping driver will actively attempt to avoid entrapment, though, including speeding, driving in the median/on the shoulder, backing up, attempting to squeeze past where there isn't sufficient space, making multiple lane changes, etc. Due to their defensive nature, autonomous cars are much more easily, and safely, herded.

Good point.

LE will still probably lobby for a kill switch, though, and politicians will rally around the fear to make it law, because that's how shit goes down these days. sigh

The government doesn't need self-driving cars to eliminate its enemies. A large enough rock is completely sufficient. Technology is a tool. If the aim of government is totalitarianism it will make do with whatever tools are there. If you think having less tools around will save you, well, you're a fool.

/r/Shadowrun has a lot of “one step closer” tags but it stopped being funny a few years ago.

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Step One, don't be undesirable.

Sure, but again, I think it's worth it.

If you think about it, they can pretty much already make you disappear pretty easily, if they so desired. We'd be just giving them a bit more power to make it a bit easier, which is basically inconsequential.

The government doesn't even make use of the surveillance tech from the 1990s. Smelling pot on someone is not legally probable cause to search them.

“More likely” lol

Yeah but the first time a self driving car kills someone, a bunch of idiots who likely regularly drive half drunk will raise hell about SEE ITS NOT SAFE AT ALL!

Stupid people tend to ruin things for everyone.

I still won't trust them for a good decade or so after they become mainstream, tbh.

I don't think my wife will ever trust them.

I won't trust them fully, but I might trust them more than humans, depending on statistics on how they perform.

Self driving cars have already both killed the driver in at least one instance, and a pedestrian in another. The uproar was minimal and short-lived.

I think a lot of it was helped by the fact that the first handful of serious accidents a handful of years back (which did get huge press) eventually turned out that they happened while humans were in control of the self-driving cars (and then the first big one that happened when the car was in control didn’t kill anyone IIRC). That served as a pressure-relief to blow off the initial press burst and adjust people to the idea that they weren’t anything crazy.

I think things could have gone very differently if the first accident had been something that killed people and occurred while the self-driving car was in control instead of the human driver.

not only that but if the person making the car has 2 neurons left there should be a kill switch on every damn car that will give the car owner control of his car "in case shit happens" so even that should be a super rase cace scenario...

not only expect the kill swich murder the autopilot and give you control of the car but immediately send a signal for help to whatever traffic overlords we have without it itself being compromised

The problem is that the vocal minority always wins politics.

The take off will be and has been tough. With a mixed bag of self-driving, self-protecting, texting drivers, amazing drivers....it’s the Wild West out there in terms of safety.

A self driving car will not save you from an angry man in a 18 wheeler....

wtf I love utilitarianism now

We're going to need a new version of Bait Car where it drives to the Police station.

Lmfao they might as well deputize the car. Thats Officer Tesla, Model S to you, citizen!

The good thing about that crime for the victim is that the difficulty to risk and payoff ratio is all fucked.

If you could hack a Tesla, your time would be better spent just stealing straight from an account than risking a one on one encounter for something on a person’s body/in their car.

Plus you can override the auto drive any time you want.

And carry a gun lol

Except so far the track record for the security of IoT devices has not been too promising, whereas at least banks (for the most part) invest a lot of effort into their security, whereas your average IoT device maker (and according to some people on parts of Reddit even Tesla themselves) don't seem too concerned about making their devices hackproof.

As someone who works at a bank in security, I wish this was true.

Look up Troy Hunt's "you don't want bank grade security."

Unless you know who is going to be in the car and they might be worth something as a ransom, then the potential payoff becomes much larger

They could also call the cops on the way over. And the whole problem can be fixed by installing a manual override switch.

Unless.. you really need a body...

Unless you decided to offer "termination" solutions on the cheap via driving the dronecar into oncoming traffic. Hitmen would be out of job.

Or, you could sell the hack so it could be distributed to people who pay less and then the cost-benefit ratio would skew to allow more criminals to use the hack.

Basically the beginning of the movie "Upgrade"

Fantastic watch.

Or driven to a barge and sent to a private island.

I understood that reference

It’s a good thing I can’t afford a Tesla

Or hacked more subtly so that it still drives you home, but takes routes that are sure to expose you to billboards advertising - or the actually places of business of - companies who paid the hacker to subliminally influence you.

Feel free to replace "company" with any entity more suited to your personal paranoia.

Imagine if your Tesla was hacked and you were ~~remotely driven to some shady place and mugged~~ forced to listen to some kid urging you to subscribe to PewDiePie.

Hopefully this meme will be dead by the time these self driving things are mainstream

Like Watchdogs 2, I remotely stop a car, when the owner steps out I report that person as a snitch to the local gang and gang members do a drive by.

This gives me a stolen car without anyone to report me to the police.

It doesn't even take hacking. Cars will be programmed not to run down pedestrians, if you gather enough pedestrians you will be able to stop or redirect any car you want.

"I deserve this."

Sounds like something outta upgrade

Elon wanted to be a superhero, but is busy, so with a backdoor he brings baddies to him instead.

Hey, that happens in the movie Upgrade!

Imagine that your Tesla was broken into by a human, and you where forced to drive to some shady place where they mugged you. 0.o?

Teslas can be hacked... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/20/tesla-model-s-chinese-hack-remote-control-brakes

You will love the movie upgrade.

Hey at least its shady

In all fairness, your average house thief is much more capable of picking your lock than he is of hacking your smart lock... unless, the hack gets commercialized in an app.

Instructions unclear, but I implemented them anyway.

- half of my coworkers

"Here are half the requirements, just build this for now and we'll get you the rest of the requirements over the next few weeks" several weeks later "Here the updated requirements, they completely change how we need to handle this so everything you've been building is pointless but we arent extending the deadline we need this asap"

Yeah requirements made by people who dont understand programming

Example: make a track that carries marbles and other things from point A to point B in a week

3 days later: Now make it work with basketballs too

Sounds about right

And 100% mismanaged.

And reason to remember the name

This is why I always get irritated when some software glitch is revealed and somebody always has to say "That was done by a shitty programmer". Guess what, everybody is a shitty programmer when they first start out, and they are still expected to pump out code, which is almost never reviewed by more experienced people before it's implemented. Thus the inexperienced programmer doesn't learn about a vulnerability until a disaster happens and they feel the repercussions. Even if you are really talented and try to keep up on the latest tech, there is always so much that you "don't know that you don't know". I guarantee you almost every hotshot programmer is good because they fucked up a lot of shit along the way.

Or management going "just do it quick" so you cant take the time to write better code

We can even be great at what we do, and still write software that's vulnerable to attacks that we had no way of preventing, most notably, social engineering, but also things like hardware vulnerabilities that are not patched on the vast majority of computers, like specter, meltdown, or rowhammer.

There is a reason army manuals have so many pictures in them.

The average person is so incomprehensibly dull already, and even more so when it comes to computers. Designing software for the average person is a damn nightmare.

50% bad at what we do and 50% companies not giving a fuck about doing it right.

What's the difference?

I mean, it's not that we're bad, it's just always new. I work in an IT related field, always on the computer-type thing. Someone comes in 'Hey can we get a product that shows this this this that that and also what these people are doing over there.' "Fuck, never done that before, guess we'll give it a shot." Every week. If it happens more than once then we develop apps, tools, extensions, whatever to stream line the process down the road.

50% of the requirements changed significantly 3 months before release.

0% of release schedules adjusted to accommodate that.

50% we don't know exactly what we're doing

That's what StackOverflow is for.

I see that python flair

Ironically, Python is the only language in which I think I know what I'm doing.

I've changed my stance on trying to get more teens in college to get into a computer science/engineering career for this exact reason. No reason to water down the workforce with more people who don't know what TF they're doing. For every one decent developer, you got 10 others whose code the decent developer will need to fix.

You have a whatnow in your whatwhat? Wait let me google.

Yeah, I just started a big database in production yesterday, developed the parser populating it and all that.

But I'm not really sure about what I'm doing, it's mostly using other libs that I'm not sure I'm using properly (thank you sql alchemy).

Every subject has a line of "know enough about it to be scared by it." For some reason software programmers' is really high up there.

We build things that are more complicated than anything humans have ever built before, including our most complicated spacecraft, on a daily basis - at least once you take into account the complexity of our dependencies and platforms.

Then we spend all day trying to figure out why parts of it only sometimes don't work, and occasionally don't work in completely inexplicable ways.

Then we discover that half the failures we saw last week was because of a kernel-mode file system driver causing microsecond disconnects from the storage array. The other half was because the Java database backend for the monitoring system was written by people who didn't understand transactions so they were putting a "COMMIT;" after every line of code, despite the fact that they were doing an atomic operation, and thus half the requests were failing because of foreign key violations. And the vendor doesn't offer premium support.

At this point you shave your head, move into a cave, and start preaching of the end times.

Basically it’s because those other programmers are incompetent.

More that those other programmers didn't expect their work to be relied upon for anywhere near what it was. The open source standard components made by non-profit groups tend to be rock solid platforms because people are aware that what they're building will be the foundation of countless things. Problems with weird dependencies and odd failures is what happens when code is used beyond its intended scope. Think of it like this: The foreman of a construction site orders concrete for footpaths. The grade of the concrete is suitable for use in footpaths only. It's hard and it's weatherproof and it's simple, but mostly it's cheap. Things go along and suddenly a change of plans is made. A new extra facility is included in the plans and someone goes to pour the foundations, but wait! There's already all this concrete here. It looks good enough. It's level, it's smooth, it's walkable, but most importantly management has been breathing down your neck about deadlines and budgeting. So you say "fuck it" and use the existing concrete. Things get built and everything goes well enough. Management is happy. Time goes on and the next project starts. A similar job to the last, so you go to do things right this time. You go to order the right stuff for the task. Management shuts you down. "You did it for half that price last time. Do it the way you did before or we find someone who will." So you use the cheap shit again. You're pretty used to how it behaves anyway. You thicken things up here and there, and remember how to tweak it to get all the extra toughness it can give you. This goes on for a while and you get pretty damn good with this cheap stuff. You've got a lot of experience with it and you can do things with it that most didn't think could be done with this cheap stuff. Unfortunately, it's still cheap concrete. There are cracks everywhere in half of what you've built. Everyone panics because you were the lowest bidder for so long that a quarter of the town is built on cheap concrete and now it's cracking. You propose repairing the cracks, but it's too late. The company goes out of business and management blames you for using cheap concrete. "Hey, that guy has cheap concrete too. Lets hire him to fix all this!" The cycle continues.

That's not true. The most complicated human made system is electrical grid. You didn't build anything even remotely so complex.

I'm not entirely sure if that holds for something like clay pots.

Clay pots can explode when you fire them if you made them wrong. Show some respect.

Silicosis. Nuff said. For ultra bonus points - pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis has a very similar pathophysiology.

Hey just noticed.. it's your 4th Cakeday POSVT! ^(hug)

Pots explode, kilns are very, very hot and can go wrong, breathing clay dust, various things in stains and glazes that should not be breathed or even on your skin, respect the potter!

You're a potter Harry.

Prior relevant XKCD

Totally irrelevant xkcd.

Relevant SMBC

Programmers: ..Um, it's math.pi I think? Maybe there's a 4 in it?

Don't be ridiculous.

We all know 3.14 because Pi Day is our favorite holiday.

Well, that and May the 4th.

return Math.Pi.ToString().Contains("4");

Unless you made a digits of pi game in java when you were learning.......

Engineers: ... pi is approximately 5, right?

Pi is on your calculator. Use 22/7 for rough estimates, and don't rely on your memory for anything that matters.

Wtf is that shit. Either you have a calculator or you don’t, no way in hell am I doing 22/7 in my head. Pi is 3, then you round up after the multiplication. /engineer

Doing math in your head? Easy! Just use this fraction with a prime denominator!

pi~sqrt(10) is often more handy if you're doing theory

Or pi = 1 year/(1e7 seconds) if you're an astronomer.

pi~sqrt(10) is often more handy if you're doing theory

Wait, really? But that's only accurate to one decimal place - is that enough?

It's handy for back-of-the-envelope calculations where you just want an order of magnitude value. In astronomy you often want to know "does this process take seconds, years, or longer than the age of the universe?". So you're working in log space, like:

A = pi r^2

means log_10 A ~ 2 log_10 r + .5

which is all maths you can do in your head, if you're memorised a few handy log_10s.

you've memorized a few handy log_10s.

wtf are there any actual engineers in this thread???

Well, if you know a kilobyte is 2^(10)=1024 bytes, then that says 10log_10(2)=3ish so log_10(2)=.3. It's then trivial to work out the values for 4 and 8. Then you get 5 because you know log_10 (10) =1. So those can all be worked out. If you then just memorise log_10(3), you can then work out logs of 6 and 9 from there. So you get 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 simply from the basic rules of logs and memorising one log and one computer fact. This means you can now do large multiplication and power problems in your head by converting into logs, if you round to the first digit. Unlike memorising 100 digits of pi, this is actually useful! I'm actually an astrophysicist, so these sort of order of magnitude calculations are particularly handy for us.

Astrophysicist

lmao I’m an aerospace engineer and I’m wondering what’s wrong with you people

Maybe one day we’ll both need to know the same math 🌈

This is pretty easy though - the log stuff is all high school level, and then it's just memorising two facts: 2^(10)=1024 (which is good to know for programming anyway, and easy to remember because those are all round numbers), and log_10(3)=0.477, which is the only tricky part. But even if you don't memorise log(3), you can still be accurate to tighter than an order of magnitude.

Okay well I do have 2^10 memorized, but how would that let me know that log10(2) is 0.3? And why would I ever be working in log10 instead of natural log?

2^(10)=1024

log10(2^(10)) = log10 (1024)

10log10 (2) = 3ish

log10 (2) = .3ish

Log base 10 is for putting things in human terms for quick mental math rather than for detailed calculations. If you work out the answer is 10^6 seconds, that's easier to understand and compare than exp(6) seconds. If you want to know something like "the odds of x dice rolling a 6 at the same time is one in y billion" or whatever, then calculations in log 10 space let you do that math in your head.

Oh okay yeah that makes sense.

I’ve only ever used log to make small or big numbers reasonable, and it’s always been strictly comparative so whichever log you used didn’t matter.

I just use 3.14 for estimates.

I'm not disagreeing with your logic or conclusion, but how is 22/7 easier to recall than 3.14?

On the Sinclair Scientific, a low-cost calculator from the 70s, they just printed some constants below the display.

It is 5 when you round it to the nearest 5.

Engineer here. Nothing you do in your head needs more accuracy than 3. Almost nothing you need elsewhere requires more than 3.14. Most engineering materials have error bands for properties which start introducing uncertainty greater than one part in 1000. You can certainly use more digits, and physicists often do, but engineers know that just about anything beyond the 3rd significant figure is just noise.

Also an engineer, don’t worry. One of my old professors used 5 in rough estimates, which we always found funny, but it’s surprisingly useful if you just need that: a rough estimate.

Lol - yeah, it's possible, but I find three just as easy (hella easier than that 22/7 bullshit people try) and a good bit more accurate.

One of the guys I met early in my career, who did a lot of technical reviews, told me i should be able to get/check the answer to any engineering solution on a post it in 3 minutes - the typical duration of a powerpoint slide. It only has to be within 10% - close enough to tell if the designer has made a substantial error (even if it's just a units issue). I use it now to know what the answer to a design should be before the computer program does its precision magic. If the computer gives me a solution that doesn't match my mental math, 95% of the time there's an error in the model and 5% of the time I learn what factor I didn't take into account in my estimate so I don't make the same estimation mistake again the next time. ;-)

Also an engineer and I would just like to say WHAT THE FUCK????

Sorry, that triggered me a bit. 5 (I forget units) as an estimate of free convection heat transfer coefficient for air made sense to me in college since after 30 minutes of arithmetic you almost always got something close to 5 anyway, but pi? PI? what benefit does this approximation bring and how broad is the definition of rough?

The benefit is that it is (negligibly) faster to calculate, and it’s really only useful as far as order of magnitude, haha

Pi is approximately 10.

I literally have used pi=4 in an approximation because quadrupling a number was more round than tripling.

In my defense, it was a very rough approximation and for the final work we plugged in all the real values.

Lawyers: ...pi? Where? Is it in the break room? What kind?

Never seen that one before and now I'm crying from trying not to snort-laugh at my desk.

Back to real work I guess...

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Electronic voting is not necessarily a terrible idea, as long as there is a paper trail that is never destroyed.

For the paper ballots to be useful, you have to count them. By hand. Every time. That needs to be the count you actually use.

So... Electronic voting isn't necessarily a terrible idea unless you use paper ballots, and disregard what the computer says.

Someone above talked about the indian system, which sounds reasonable. All votes are immediately printed out, shown to the voter, and then dropped into a ballot box. Normally, the electronic tallies are used, but if there's a dispute, then the paper gets counted instead, and used as the final say.

if there's a dispute

To avoid bias or corruption, you need to skip this part. Always count the ballots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6inaBWSEdk

And, as we all know, India's government is entirely free from corruption.

Dispute and a certain percent of boxes are counted randomly anyway.

If the cost of democracy was only that of counting paper ballots, democracy would be cheap.

Democracy requires more than secure elections, but without secure elections you simply cannot have democracy.

You don't have to count all of them. Just a random sample, and it doesn't even have to be a large one.

That assumes the people who hacked the system made large changes rather than small ones. The 2016 election could have been swayed by something like 8000 votes.

You would also have to do a sample count in each area if you wanted to detect localized fraud.

Or you could just create a system where human teams count all the ballots. Then you don't have to worry about any of this.

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Neither one of those are useful when you don't know there's an issue in the first place. In fact, this is where your analogy falls flat. If you've been robbed, you know when you get home. However, in order to know that someone is fudging election results, you have to actively search for problems.

Which means you have to count ballots. Paper ballots. By hand. Every time.

as long as there is a paper trail that is never destroyed.

But elections must be anonymous. It must not be possible to link a voter to their ballot. It also must not be possible to vote multiple times. How do you do both at the same time using computers?

I mean, does it really matter how many layers of redundant multi-factor authentication you have on your front door? You still have lots of zero-day glass vulnerabilities.

At the end of the day, all security is stochastic, so the best thing to do is just be properly insured for routine property loss.

Can you explain to me what a "glass vulnerability" is? Never heard that before.

Someone can throw a brick through your window and break in, even with a million nifty gadgets guarding your house.

"I gotta get my tool"

"That's not a tool! That's a damn brick!"

Unexpected gone in 60 seconds reference, hell yes

Just put bars over the windows.

If you can get it, it's possible someone else can. It's that simple.

Ok, but why is electronic voting so bad from a technical perspective?

Muktiple points:

Its centralized, that means one security issue can be used to change millions of votes at once. With paper voting you can fake only so many votes in some voting areas, not all of them at once.

Its not transparent, tracing back if someone tampered with the votes or if the calculation has be done correctly breakes down to how much you trust the programmers. In clasical paper voting you trust the people counting the votes(and this is done in public, so you can check yourself)

You cant possible validate if a server/computer is actually running the algorithm you think it is running, so again it breakes down to trusting the people who installed the hard/software.

Some of these issues can be solved but rarely are...

The Indian government solved it with a VVPAT. Every time you vote on an electronic machine the system prints out a physical slip of paper, displays it to the voter before automatically felling it into the vault.

The votings still electronic but the physical slips can be counted in the event of a dispute.

Well, technically that's not electric voting.

It's very much so. The paper slips are not counted every single time, they're only present to audit the results of the electronic vote if somebody raises a complaint. And it's very efficient with the Indian Election Commission declaring results faster and faster every year.

So if I understand correctly, the electric voting is the actual vote, but the slips are simply there as a confirmation of what you voted for?

I read your comment as the electrical vote creates a slip (i.e. a ballot) whereby all the slips are physically counted. After re-reading, that's only done in the event of a recount. Do I understand correctly?

Yes. You also don't need to recount every slip in the country (Though you could if you wanted to, of course). If there's allegations that some machines were malfunctioning in one city for example, just counting that city's slips is enough.

Slips from a random selection of booths are also counted after each election to make sure the count matches with the machine count. Any candidate can request that the slips be recounted from any district that he/she contested elections from.

The Indian government invented the world's most expensive pencil.

Who decides if a physical recount should be done? What mechanisms are being used to detect tampering? How can I verify that those systems are unbiased and free from corruption?

If you want it to be secure, count the ballots every time.

In fact, never mind the computer.

Any individual candidate can ask for a recount in which case all the polling booths where he was on the ballot get a recount, which seems good to me.

Each country's political situation is different. In India many of the votes are held in remote locations with no road or rail, many in militant controlled areas. It can take months to get all the ballots in. Further the poll's results need to be announced as soon as possible to prevent any risk of political clashes.

This way the results are announced immediately and the election commission can focus it's limited resources on recounting just those ballots where a recount is actually requested. Not to mention that to date, the count has never been found inaccurate in all the tens of thousands of recounts that have happened.

Then that system is completely open to fraud. It wouldn't be that difficult to fudge things in such a way that there wasn't a recount. If there's no recount, we're back to square one with security.

Paper or bust.

Can you explain how you 'fudge' things to make sure there's no recount?

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If I'm contesting elections for my district and i feel like the elections weren't fair and i demand a recount, how would somebody else 'fudge' it? By definition, any candidate asking for a recount is enough to ensure that there is a recount.

Changing the result by a few percent across many districts is unlikely to even raise eyebrows, but can change the outcome.

Thats one of the possible ways to solve these problems, but how do you ensure that the vote is secret then(so noone can pay you for voting someone - and the voter can proof who he/she voted for)?

The slip doesn't have a name on it. It's just a single piece of paper with the vote written on it. No way to know who voted for who. Only the total number of votes received by each candidate.

So you get a piece of paper with the party/person you voted for on it?

Couldnt a party say "we pay 100$ to anyone giving us this paper with our party written on it?" The party doesnt care that its actually you who voted them, just that they get the vote.

You don't get a piece of paper, no. You see a piece of paper drop behind a glass wall, and you can inspect that it has the right name on it before it drops. You never get to touch it.

blockchain : am I a joke to you?

I'm not the most tech savvy person, but if our banking system worth trillions of dollars can be secured and made easily accessible online, why can't voting?

Your bank system is just not as secure as you think, banks just have a got good insurances covering their losses. You as a customer only worry about credit card fraud(and thats a huge thing) but many cases where criminals just took some fraction of a cent for every transaction(just an example) are known, no enduser realy cared or was harmed.

Plus in the worst case you have a bank going bankrupt and maybe evern their customers loosing money, but manipulating votes to get some dictator to power can make way more dammage.

The stakes are different. Money is insured and even a rounding error over hundreds of thousands of transactions can be traced back and fixed.

If an election is compromised it’s very difficult to do something about it. We’re seeing it happening in the States right now. Paper voting is not perfect, but it’s as old as democracy. It’s tested.

Electronic voting is the Javascript of voting, but even younger than this.

Also consider how little consequences there was for Equifax issues. Now imagine that but with democracy. It’s a nightmare.

part of the issue is your bank has your name attached to your money

doing that for ballets is dangerous

Doing that for ballots is unconstitutional in my country.

Your bank knows who you are. It knows what kind of transactions you made and when. Voting is the opposite of that. It must not be possible to link you to your ballot and at the same time the system must prevent you from voting twice.

What is different about what Estonia is doing that they feel so confident about having their elections, and indeed most of their government digital?

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You still have the 3rd point: how do you ensure that the software running on the machines is the open source code and not some modified version?

How about letting people use their own hardware, with open source voting software? This way, anyone can verify the software, build it themselves. Probably using an interpreted language might be a good idea, like Python, where you have to distribute the source code, might also be a good idea.

Also release the software well in advance, so it can be audited, bugs and security issues can be found and fixed.

I like the idea of an open ledger from Crypto currencies, so anyone could verify the votes in real-time.

Any random person can understand how paper ballots work and can observe elections. Most people don't understand how code works. And how do you preserve voters' anonymity?

(and this is done in public, so you can check yourself)

Really? How does that work?

I dont know about how or if its done in other countries, just germany. Here every voting district(just some thousand voters) counts thier votes and publishes the results. In any of these districts minimum 5 helpers count while anyone who wants can watch and check them.

It's impossible to make it general, secret, equal, and free. In addition to that election processes should be transparent for voters. No electronic voting system will be transparent to the average voter. Pen and paper is easy to understand and check afterwards.

There are cryptographic voting protocols that are satisfy all the guarantees normal voting has and offer end-to-end verifiability which can increase the trust in the result.

You think the average voter is able to understand a cryptographic protocol? It will be an intransparent magic process people won't trust.

In addition to that it will make selling and buying votes easier.

Yes, people trusting it is an issue, but the idea is that anyone with enough time can read the papers and verify the election result. From a technical perspective it provides better verifiability.

These voting systems can also be resistant to coercion, i.e. make it impossible for you to prove you voted a certain way to someone else, so selling votes should be just as hard as it is now.

Pen and paper voting systems can be run by children who can read and count. Requiring people to become experts at cryptography to understand the voting system is unrealistic. Very few will be able to do that.

Then there's the issue of verifying that the software used actually implements the process properly. So you have to be a programmer as well to understand that part. And even if you understand the software, verifying that the software you reviewed is the one running on your voting computer is not trivial.

So in order to verify a cryptographic voting system, I need to learn at least cryptography, programming and finally compile the software myself.

Monitoring an election is easy as pie with paper ballots. Just go to polling station, watch, and count. Am I supposed to attach a debugger to the software during the election?

You don't need to know the system to actually do the voting. You only need to be able to do the maths to actually verify the results.

The difficulty is getting people to believe the experts that the system is secure (because it is). But if that's done, you can write a mathematical proof that the vote is correct, and anyone with the right knowledge can verify it. If you have an uncle that knows mathematics you can ask him to verify your vote and you only need to trust your uncle.

The software is not a point of attack in proper voting systems, it cannot attack the system without being noticed. Hence these systems are called "end-to-end verifiable". You can confirm every intermediate worked fine with just the final tally data and your vote receipt.

I don't have to believe in any experts to observe a paper voting process. I can just go to my local polling station and see for myself.

What is that vote receipt? How does it arrive to me? How do I know that it hasn't been intercepted? What generates that receipt? Is it being logged somewhere? Does it stay in the server's memory? How do I know that the server doesn't have a vulnerability that's similar to heartbleed? What can see the process? Can a sysadmin or whatever look at it? Who can access that computer? Where is it stored? So many questions.

You can watch this talk on a voting protocol: https://youtu.be/ZDnShu5V99s - it answers all of these questions.

Voting protocols are not vulnerable to software attacks because they realize that software is impossible to secure perfectly. Instead, they give end-to-end verifiability even in the presence of malicious intermediates - you can write a mathematical proof that the voting has not been tampered with even if you don't have access to the source code of the programs doing the vote processing.

You still didn't answer - how do I know that my vote was anonymous? How do I know that there isn't a log somewhere? How do I know that the server doesn't suffer from vulnerabilites that would link me to my ballot somehow? We already know how to record votes securely and prevent tampering. But we don't know how to do that while preserving voters' anonymity.

This is covered in the talk. There are multiple approaches to this - in the one the talk goes into detail about, the readable information linking the vote to a particular party is only opened in the booth and destroyed in plain sight afterwards (i.e. shredded).

How is that readable info generated? How do I know that it's not logged anywhere? How do I know that nothing gets logged?

Seriously I don't see any benefits of this. Only a shitload of drawbacks and the whole process seems to be unconstitutional, because it can't guarantee anonymity.

Dude... I can't explain the math in a reddit post. If you want to actually know the details, either watch the talk or see any other resource on end-to-end verifiable voting systems. They aren't some imaginary technology, they actually work. And yes, they can guarantee anonymity.

How would that protocol stamp my passport? How do I know that my ballot is not tied to my name in some random database or logfile? How does it verify that I haven't voted already? What if I didn't vote at all for whatever reason, but someone hacked my computer and impersonated me?

How does that magic protocol work?

The actual implementation of it is complex, but in the end you can write a mathematical proof that none of those things have happened, using the receipt of the vote and the public voting tally data.

This includes preventing double votes, preserving vote secrecy and proving the vote was counted without tampering in the final tally.

The actual implementation of it is complex

This is a problem right here. You can't explain to me how it works. You can't explain this to an average voter and observer. You just ramble about some magic algorithm that magically prevents double voting, preserves voter's anonymity and checks that he's a citizen and is eligible to vote.

I only understood that there's some receipt that the system gives you. And you can't explain to me how that receipt is generated and how it arrives to me and how I can be sure that it can't be intercepted and linked to me. Because as I understand - if someone else has that receipt and they know that it's mine, then they can see what candidate I voted for.

This is unconstitutional, because elections MUST be anonymous. And currently nobody in the world knows how I voted in the last election. Nobody filmed me, there was no receipt generated by a black box and I tossed my ballot in an urn containing hundreds of other ballots. Your system can't guarantee the same level of anonymity.

Just because you don't understand it does not mean your vote is insecure. If you have an aunt that is a mathematician, you can ask her to verify that your vote appeared correctly. The aunt can do all the math necessary, without trusting anyone else - and you only have to trust your aunt. This is the real power of these systems - anyone with the time to educate themselves in the field can fully convince themselves the system is secure and has not been tampered with.

To ensure secrecy, the receipt is useless to anyone but the actual voter - it could be intercepted, the voter could even give it away, but it would be useless without information that is only available to the voter (for example, information that has been given to the voter and then destroyed in the booth). These systems can ensure secrecy of the vote even if the voter actively tries to harm that secrecy - they can't even prove to someone else that they voted a certain way, they can only know for themselves because they have additional information that others don't.

I recommend you watch this talk on the topic - the audience is good and has asked all the questions you have, and they are all answered in that talk.

information that has been given to the voter and then destroyed in the booth

How do I know that the info has been destroyed and not been leaked or intercepted somehow? How do I know that the voting machine hasn't been infected with something in the hardware or software that could leak this info? How do I know that it doesn't keep a log of it somewhere? How can an observer verify all that?

I don't need a mathematician aunt to understand the current process. It's very simple and tamper-resistant.

I'm a programmer and I don't trust ANY machines in the voting booth. I don't want them there - they can suffer from a lot of vulnerabilities.

If I can vote online then the server must send all that info to me and attackers can get it by infecting my computer with something. Stuxnet was a thing already. If secret services can write a worm that can break into a secure Iranian nuclear facility then they sure as hell break into your phone and computer and infect them.

The server needs to know my identity. It needs to know that I'm connected to it. It knows what data I'm sending to it. How do I know that no one can observe this from the outside? By a heartbleed-like attack or countless other vulnerabilities? How do I know that nothing gets logged? How do I know that a sysadmin can't see what I'm doing? That server is a damn black box to me.

My country's constitution clearly says that voting MUST be anonymous. It doesn't list any sysadmins or anything like that as exceptions. NO ONE must ever know how I voted. You can't guarantee that nothing gets logged. I don't trust you, I don't trust some black-box server and some random sysadmins.

In the scratch-and-vote system covered in the talk, the machines involved do not see the secret info. It's a slip of paper.

If you're a programmer, and have experience with crypto, good! The guarantees cryptographic algorithms provide are readily available and these E2E systems don't actually dig too deep into the box of crypto knowledge. A bit of public key crypto and homomorphic crypto suffice.

Anonymous voting can be guaranteed even with malicious voting machines, intermediaries and so on. You don't need to trust any sysadmins. That's the whole point.

The concepts are not difficult to understand. I really do recommend you look it up, because all the problems you've brought up so far are not new and have been considered in e2e systems. I would rather avoid transcribing papers on reddit.

So we still need paper and staff at the polling station that verifies and stamps your passport? But now there's a black box in each voting booth and independent observers can't know what it does. And you still haven't explained how all that works. I don't want to watch a 1:30 h long presentation. What's the point of all that?

Yes, passport verification still happens, though stamping it is not required.

A black box isn't a problem if you can verify everything it does. If I have a black box that sorts a list of numbers for me I can easily check if the list of numbers is sorted without actually having to know how this is done. Similarly you can ensure secrecy and authenticity in cryptographic voting protocols.

The subject has enough details about it that a talk of that length is necessary. Writing down how it works on reddit is pointless. If you prefer a written document check out the paper of scratch and vote: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.70.3387&rep=rep1&type=pdf - but be aware that it's only one of multiple cryptographic voting protocols with major differences.

There are many valid reasons, but Reddit most of the time fails to ignore that implementation can mitigate the risks. Here in Brazil we've had electronic voting for a long time and so far there is no reason to doubt it. You get your receipts, it's always audited and everyone votes on the same machine distributed by the central government, so you don't have to worry about each state doing their shoddy implementation. Recounts have been done, fraud acusations have been made, it has been investigated, and so far so good. Not saying it perfect, but it has been working like a charm.

implementation can mitigate the risks

There have been numerous security flaws in commonly used security relevant software and hardware.

it's always audited

By who? And why should I as a normal citizen trust them?

distributed by the central government, so you don't have to worry about each state doing their shoddy implementation

Yes you only have to worry about the central government doing a shoody implementation. And if there is one flaw every single machine is affected.

​

​

The main problem with e-voting, the question if all votes have been counted can't be addressed in any way I know of that doesn't impact the voting process in a negative way. Aswell as the problem that changing many votes is really easy to do on an e-voting compared to paper.

The main problem with e-voting, the question if all votes have been counted can't be addressed in any way I know of that doesn't impact the voting process in a negative way. Aswell as the problem that changing many votes is really easy to do on an e-voting compared to paper.

This is not a problem with cryptographic voting protocols - you can verify no additional votes made it in, and you can verify your vote was counted appropriately.

How can you make sure no vote has been changed without leaving any trace as to who initially voted?

Well... That's the magic really. This is a very good talk on these protocols: https://youtu.be/ZDnShu5V99s

If you throw enough cryptography at the problem you can have auditability without compromising secrecy.

it's always audited

So, what's the point then? Sounds expensive...

Why not use voting system that has built in audit?

I don't remember where, but I saw a pretty decent analogy for why CS seems less reliable than other fields.

Imagine you're designing an airplane. Making it fly is easy, but now imagine that everyone has access to a surface to air rocket launcher, and anyone clever is able to use one, and you as the airplane designer are constantly in a battle with the people who might shoot a rocket at you. Sometimes, the saboteurs are going to win.

Contrast this with an elevator, which operates in basically the same conditions all the time.

I suspect the legal profession has a similar problem.

Similar, but not exactly the same. You know exactly who the opponent is, and you know what they know. Unlike CS, where anyone in the world could be a threat, and they might exploit weaknesses you didn't know you had.

There's a simpler analogy. You don't sign important documents in pencil, but that doesn't mean pencil makers are bad at what they do. Pencils are SUPPOSED to be erasable.

Simpler, but I don't think it's as accurate -- security tech isn't designed to be fallible, it's just that there's a really strong incentive for people to break it, and it's really easy to do if you're clever enough.

Computers are inherently insecure inexactly the same way a pencil is, and several other ways on top of that.

You can change data in a way that makes it extremely difficult to tell it was tampered with.

Not only that, but you can do it anonymously at a distance.

The whole system is a series of black boxes, and there isn't any one person who knows the contents of all of them... So they can't be verified in any meaningful way.

Computers are fundamentally insecure. Trying to make them secure is like trying to make a pencil that can't be erased... But is still erasable like a regular pencil.

True -- we're talking about analogies for two different parts though. Cause if you want to change a pencil mark on a paper, you have to have the paper in the first place. Whereas the rocket launcher example makes clear that anyone can attack you from anywhere, anytime.

We once poured paint in a tower we particularly didn't trust to throw out at home. Have better ways now, but yeah.

I mean... you don't sign important paperwork in pencil. Does that mean pencilmakers are bad at what they do?

Computers (especially networked computers) are inherently insecure. Everything on them can be changed almost instantly, and from great distances. You can't even see the changes because software isn't a physical object that you can look at.

So yea, electronic voting systems are inherently stupid. You're signing a check in pencil and then mailing it to the bank. The security systems are like putting "for deposit only" above your signature. It doesn't matter, it's in pencil. I could just erase that too.

I feel this on a metaphysical level.

Driverless cars... * shudders *

His cracks me up because I write software for airplanes. They’re perfectly safe but the software is still near impossible to get completely right.

should be a subreddit

Someone tell me how you can be completely anonymous and still have one vote bound to your name.

Someone tell me how you can be completely anonymous and still have one vote bound to your name.

This is a relatively new comic, but I feel like I've seen it way earlier for some reason. Anyone have any ideas?

Elections must be anonymous and it must not be possible for the same person to vote twice. With computers you can have only one of those things, but not both at the same time. Doesn't matter how good the field is at what it does.

Anyone can go to a polling station and observe the process. It's pretty easy to understand and spot any shady shit happening. But how do you do that when computers are involved? How can an average person spot some shady shit in the code or hardware? How do you know that the computer doesn't have some obscure hardware backdoor? It's not easy even if you're a programmer. How do you even observe the process without breaking anonymity?

And how do you prevent voter intimidation and vote buying if it's possible to vote online? Your server can be super strong, but what if the voter's computer is compromised?

I could go on and on... This is why paper ballots are here to stay.

This is unironically why most programmers are not engineers despite claiming to be.

edit: they're also really sensitive about it

The vast majority of programmers are glorified plumbers

Glorified scrapbookers, more like. Ooh that's a shiny piece of code, let me paste it in here..

Which is ridiculous.

If we can do our banking securely electronically, we can certainly devise a secure electronic voting system. The will to do it just isn't there.

If we can do our banking securely electronically

This is a terrible assumption to make. Online banking isn't secure. People get screwed on a daily basis.

Online banking isn't secure.

But, the banking app on my phone sends a 2-factor authentication SMS to my phone, to make sure that I not only have my phone, but I also have my phone. Isn't checking the same thing twice more secure?

It's more secure in the same sense that having a password is more secure than not having one. There are still plenty of ways in, including MITM attacks.

Of course online banking isn't 100% safe. But it obviously is overwhelmingly safe enough to to use on a daily basis. The percentage of fraud and inaccuracy falls within an acceptable rate. Otherwise nobody would use it. And when it does fail, we have trails and means to correct it.

Likewise no voting system will be perfect. Neither is paper. But it can be made safe and accurate enough to rival paper voting. We just don't want to.

The percentage of fraud is definitely NOT within an acceptable rate. The only reason you use it is because it's insured and the bank picks up liability.

We aren't talking about "pretty safe". We're talking about something that's horribly unsafe, dressed up with insurance and security theater.

And again, it works well enough for the bank to cover a certain percentage of loss. Otherwise they would not offer it.

To everything there is a risk factor. If a service or product has too much risk compared to the reward, it is not offered. Simple.

Computer systems can be made to be secure enough to fall within acceptable risk if the will to do it is there.

They spend a pretty large chunk of money doing that. Money that ultimately comes from their customers.

There's no election insurance, though. There's also no monetary loss to immediately and incontrovertibly indicate fraud.

That stops it from being an acceptable risk.

The sad part about that XKCD is that paper voting is a complete joke.

Like, if you want to know if your vote was properly counted in the last paper election (that you voted in), you cannot do that. Yet you can verify your vote in many Open Source projects' digital voting systems.

The problem is not that software engineers couldn't write good software. The problem is that we don't want to.

That's a feature, not a bug. If you can verify your vote, you can prove how you voted which is very bad for voter intimidation and bribery purposes.

This has been addressed in some of these projects. You can verify/prove your vote counted but there is no way to tell what you voted.

How do you prove a vote was counted correctly without revealing who you voted for?

Cryptographic voting protocols.

Imagine you get a sheet of three candidates. The order of these candidates is hidden until you enter the voting booth. You see the order in the booth and say you want to vote for the second candidate. You then destroy the sheet with the order.

At home, you can download the information of the final tally and verify that your vote was counted as voting the second person on the sheet. You cannot prove that you voted for a particular candidate, but at the same time, because you saw the order in the booth you know the vote was recorded correctly.

(the voting protocol can handle verification of other aspects of this, such as the order of candidates you see in the booth being legitimate)

Blockchain AI in the cloud

So it knows what you voted for but doesn't tell it to YOU? Well, someone can access that information...

After enough generations, it will learn how to count votes

That's not how verification works. Only you know what you voted and the verification just tells you that your vote is correct.

Inb4 Ivan is looking over your shoulder with a bat as you 'verify' you voted Putin

With cryptographic voting protocols it is possible to achieve verifiability without allowing anyone else to reveal your vote, or even allow you to prove to someone else that you voted in a certain way. There is additional information that only you see in the booth when voting that is destroyed afterwards that allows this.

Interesting, can you explain how this works?

With cryptographic voting protocols, the voter has some special information in the booth that is destroyed afterwards. For example there might be a sheet saying candidate A is Trump and candidate B is Hillary. Now you vote for B, and at home you can verify that the vote you submitted actually counted as B. However, since the sheet giving the mapping to the actual candidate was destroyed after your vote and was unique to your ballot (the next voter might have another order), you cannot actually prove to anyone that you voted for a particular person.

These voting systems also take care of aspects like verifying the order on the sheet is actually correct and has not been tampered with.

Or you can do what Canada does, which is a hybrid approach. Paper ballot that is counted digitally. The ballot can be recounted by hand of necessary, and data is manually collected by the election board.

That's still a machine where you put a bunch of papers in and a magic number comes out

It looks like we’re already doing this too

Technology has modernized voting and ballot counting over the years. Early voters used wooden ballot boxes. Later, people began using punch cards and curtained-off mechanical voting machines. Modern methods include touch-screens and optical scan ballots. Modern voting methods have for the most part eliminated vote-counting by hand. But in some very close races, recounts are still performed manually.

Well, fuck

I'm a software developer. You've completely missed the point. The problem, as it were, is actually that no matter how well crafted the voting software is, there will always, always, be an exploit possible. Not even necessarily in the code the developer wrote either, but certainly in a bit of code in one of the many open source packages they undoubtedly made use of when building their code. It's basically impossible to build anything of value without utilizing already-established tools / libraries / etc. But even if, by some amazing luck, your software is entirely foolproof (it's not), that doesn't mean it always will be, because exploits evolve and are developed years and years beyond the life of your software, and there is no shortage of people looking to find exploits.

Imagine if elections used only software based voting machines. Now imagine one bad dude, or country, was able to exploit all of them to change votes or manipulate how they are tallied. It would be catastrophic and child's play compared to what it would take to commit massive paper ballot fraud. Paper ballots aren't perfect, but they can't be hacked remotely by one guy at least.

That's not how that works. There's no magic exploits that exist everywhere that can just silently be exploited and nobody will notice forever. If things were that easy, 9/11 could have been done remotely via the Internet by exploiting the planes.

Besides, you're the one missing the point. Exploiting anything is possible. Aircrafts are exploited all the time (see 9/11 again), so are elevators (see DEFCON talk). The possible of an exploit is not relevant to the discussion.

PS: You can run voting machines without connecting them to the Internet if it scares you.

Imagine being this naive.

We've already seen what big scary companies can do just to fuck with some random nuclear plant in the middle of nowhere.

Those were governments, not companies.

And in ase you missed the last Russian elections: We've seen what governments can do with paper votes, too.

Those were governments, not companies.

And don't you think goverments are willing to pay big money to change the outcome of the elections of other countries?

And yes, we've seen what mountains goverments move to rig elections. Why on Earth would you make those mountaints easier to move?

If one lonely hairy dude can modify one single vote, he can change another 10000 with only two more sips of coffee.

With paper vote, fraud does not escale well at all. And no single person can change 10000 votes remotely, there MUST be cooperation. The bigger the count of rigged votes = the more people you need to keep their mouths shut. It just doesn't work well, and if it does, it is extremely more expensive than with electroninc voting.

We've had paper vote for centuries in hundreds of countries. It's been tested, and cheated, and patched, and retested thousands of times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

Well, this got infantile. Have a good day

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_novelty

Desktop link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_novelty

^^/r/HelperBot_ ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove. ^^Counter: ^^235411

Appeal to novelty

The appeal to novelty (also called argumentum ad novitatem) is a fallacy in which one prematurely claims that an idea or proposal is correct or superior, exclusively because it is new and modern. In a controversy between status quo and new inventions, an appeal to novelty argument is not in itself a valid argument. The fallacy may take two forms: overestimating the new and modern, prematurely and without investigation assuming it to be best-case, or underestimating status quo, prematurely and without investigation assuming it to be worst-case.

Investigation may prove these claims to be true, but it is a fallacy to prematurely conclude this only from the general claim that all novelty is good.

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https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I'm not responding to most of your ignorant comments here because I don't have the time and can't argue with stupid all day, but I'd just like to point out that Russia didn't exploit paper ballots. They exploited people using social media propaganda.

Man, you're not even smart enough to tell Russian and American elections apart.

Remind me, please? who is overseeing the development of voting systems?

Research faculties at universities.

You're so hilariously ignorant of this topic for being so confident in your responses. Perhaps you should take a second to reflect on the fact that you have no idea how any of this works, and some people actually do.

See, and this is how I know I can completely ignore everything you said: Your only remaining argument is baselessly insulting me.

Thanks for proving me right.

It's not an insult. I mean I'm sure you're insulted and all, but you've demonstrated all on your own your ignorance here, I just pointed it out because you seem oblivious to it even still. I have plenty more arguments to make on the subject, I just don't think it's worth my time anymore.

[deleted]

Yeah, you can manually observe the whole track and hope you don't miss the one case where they fuck up.
But if a while after the elections, doubts are raised, there's nothing you can do.

Watch, and raise objections if they don’t do it right. I’m an activist in an UK political party, and at elections one of the jobs is to go to the count. This is mainly for sampling how different polling stations have voted, but partly to keep an eye on things. And if the ballot papers are not clearly visible during the process, we will call it out - which really makes us popular with the counters! It’s an old and well-optimised process. The weaknesses tend to be at the input end: voting the graveyard or similar.

Electronic voting is a nightmare that you want to stay as far away from as possible. Just look at all the trouble it has caused the US last election, with claims of hacking of machines.

Fraud of paper ballots requires several, organized people in specific locations. Fraud of electronic ballots requires 1 guy who knows what he's doing from the comfort of his living room.

Yes, that's exactly my point. The current US voting systems are done by people who don't give a shit about the software.

Yet tons of highly regarded software projects hold their elections online (eg Wikipedia, Debian) and you can vote on a website or by email. And nobody seems to scold those people for it or doubt the legitimacy of the vote.

[deleted]

Here's a recent example from Openstreetmap of why your claims aren't true.

And no Open Source project can trust its members. If that was the case, they would vote by just using a Wiki and everybody adds 1 to the number behind the candidate they want to vote for.

[deleted]

And I disagree. It's the same thing, only in somewhat larger.
If you have a method that works well, you can use it in both.

And I was merely disputing the fact that computerized voting is inherently broken. Clearly people are doing it all over the world, so it must be working.

[deleted]

No, but it means the idea of locking is good enough.

It doesn't mean because people lock bikes and bikes are cheap, locking bank safes won't work.

Slavery was a thing people were doing all over the world, that doesn't make any sort of statement on the inherent benefits of slavery.

Was that an argument for or against paper voting?

Someone should. Online/electronic voting is a horrible horrible idea, regardless of who carries it out.

Go ahead. I'm sure those people are very interested by your concerns.

Yes, sometimes the Siren's song of cheap Luddite humor is too strong even for Randall to ignore.

You could totally design a ASIC or FPGA voting button as a completely deterministic state machine which takes a hash of your social security number, xor's it with the checksum of the current contents of the vote tally blob, and then burns that value to eFuse WORM storage. Clock it again to calculate the new CRC, iterate the output pointer, and you are ready for a new voter.

Or something along those lines. The point being that for each voting device, for each vote, there is deterministic accumulation of information entropy which leaves a permanent physical record, can't really be tampered with, but which could still be read by a networked tabulation authority across the internet.

Just volunteer to man the polling stations, then if you live in any decent democracy you are part of the counting process.

Last election I checked the numbers online with what we had counted (multiple times due to someone messing up their count) and the number across all the parties was off by only one vote that didn’t change the outcome. I verified the count on every single stack at least once and can confirm that no vote went unaccounted for in my third of the municipality.

In any decent democracy the vote counting is open to the public at the polling stations anyway so you don't even have to volunteer for anything if you just want to observe. Just show up when the polls close and watch.

the number across all the parties was off by only one vote

And we are proud of that?

That’s a 0.01% divergence. Literally a case of static cling or a vote hiding inside another really well, which the counting machine at the end discovered.

And a proof that the system is wrong and therefor shouldn't be trusted.

Human error corrected by a computer (also verified by humans) at the end.

No votes were lost, and there’s a very small possibility that one was added (though according to the numbers of submitted votes there was one we missed, but couldn’t find).

At least humans can’t magic up legal votes from thin air. Unlike computers.

Humans magic up legal votes all the time. It's so common in fact that Wikipedia has long pages about it.

Because unlike computers that can use verifiable maths, humans can't be trusted and need to constantly be observed to make sure they're neither stupid nor malicious.

Election monitoring

Election monitoring is the observation of an election by one or more independent parties, typically from another country or a non-governmental organization (NGO), primarily to assess the conduct of an election process on the basis of national legislation and international election standards. There are national and international election observers. Monitors do not directly prevent electoral fraud, but rather record and report such instances. Election observation increasingly looks at the entire electoral process over a longer period of time, rather than at election-day proceedings only.

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I'm always wondering if we will be able to continue increasing complexity of systems to an indefinitive level or if we have to stop at one point bc humans simply can't think straight in the 53th level of an abstract system. This would imply that at some time in the future humans will only be able to write low-level complexity code and leave the hard tasks to ai.

On the other hand humanity is progressing so fast bc we are diversifying our skills in order to access more efficient processes: the more specified your solution is, the more you can help in this specified field. So why should we ever stop with abstracting complex solutions, its literally someone's job to make it understandable for a human.

I'm just wondering bc right now, I feel like the majority of people would say IT or CS right now is too abstract and complicated to be interesting. But the future will only increasr the need for comolex, powerful solutions - and a human is limited cognitive-wise. Makes me think about the correlations between people not being able to read/write a hundred years ago vs people today not being able to read/write code

I would say that there is a limit to human understanding, but we are nowhere near it. Consider that humans are pretty much operating at 53 layers of abstraction already.

Reality is a series of waveforms interacting with each other to create some and molecules, which we have harnessed through millennia to produce manufacturing processes to create transistors at a microscopic scale. The transistors operate at frequencies of billions per second to shuffle electrons around a circuit which is based upon the positioning and magnetic field of other electrons, atoms and molecules.

This information is then presented to us on a screen using pixels, which create letters, icons, language and conventions which we have developed over thousands and thousands of years. The way in which we interact with this machinery is through a series of buttons with printed letters which in various combinations performs various results.

Not to mention that in order to press these buttons complicated biological processes must occur in order to do something as simple as contact a muscle.

We as humans do not need to understand how all of this works from first principles in order to program a computer. With greater and greater levels of abstraction we can continue to expand our knowledge, because we can stop worrying about the tiny details and focus on what's important.

There are ways to have a safe digital voting system... they just require end users to be above a 90 IQ. A flipped digit pin that with just flipping the last two digits could give a different answer when verified would be all we needed.

The problem isn't the voting software itself being bad, it's the fact that the Internet itself is inherently a security liability, and votes are such precious commodities to parties both foreign and national that there are literally millions of powerful people dedicating resources to crack that nut.

If we want to use purely digital voting, redundancy would be the name of the game; an isolated wired network only connected to dedicated vote input machines and the consolidator, with multiple encryption systems to make sure anyone who gains unauthorized access to the network can't access the information.

We run everything else over the Internet already, including airplanes, pacemakers and nuclear power plants. I don't think voting is even close to being that dangerous.

If a vote was hacked, you do it again. If a plane was hacked, those people are dead.

Wrong, sir. We send data from those examples, we don't control them. What's knowing some guy's bpm going to help you do? As for airplanes and power plants, they have tamper detectors that constantly verify conditions, and I highly doubt a nuclear power plant control unit is connected to the open Internet, at worst only the sensors are.

Voting machines are input and, in your argument, output devices that can alter and access the database, and if you can access the information, anyone can if they have the right key. This leads to the possibility of targeted political ads and, worse, political bullying to make you vote how they want you to. Not to mention your vote matters less because it can be changed from within the program with no way to verify. There are too many long-term problems with your idea to put it into practice, and too important a system to be so roughshod reactive about.

You should really inform yourself before spouting bullshit. For a start, try this article.

Hrm, I will concede that point, but that just enforces my position that the Internet shouldn't be anywhere near important things because it's inherently a security risk. It's a disaster waiting to happen.

That you vote is not verifiable is not a bug it's one of the core features of democracy - called anonymous voting.

Yeah, digital voting would be fantastic imo and blockchain could definitely be a useful technology in its design.

How? A public ledger of all votes?

What's the problem? Good old Andrei can give you a visit if he sees you didn't vote for Putin

blockchain could definitely be a useful technology

And my femur could be a useful hammer, I just can't imagine a scenario in which that "could" turns into "will".

Maybe when society collapses? *fingers crossed*

This is the best XKCD

This meme is like a politicians and lobbyists wet dream, as long as people believe that crap there will be no advances in direct involvement from citizens in political decisions and they will be able to keep doing their businesses freely. The truth is that there is significant progress being made in the field, like VVPAT, and there are simple ways to prevent man in the middle attacks that have already been developed. The truth is that no system is perfect and everything in life involves trade offs, but fostering more participation in democracies is always the way to go, even if it involves some tradeoffs. But go ahead keep making crooked politicians and lobbyists work easier.

I really tried hard to make my smart home not be internet-enabled except specific aspects, but almost every interesting smart home tech out there eventually requires an internet connection to take full advantage of the technology. It sucks, and I wish more companies provided a "local server" option for people like me. I'd even pay a premium for it.

The problem there is that most consumers just want it to "work", so mass market products are going to try to minimize those hurdles.

While fair, I'd still like the option. Imo, the best way to handle this is to provide a local solution and a cloud solution. Charge users who just want it to work for the cloud solution, and the rest can figure it out on our own.

I definitely get what you're saying and would love the same option, but yeah I was just giving a reason for why we don't see it more often :(

OwO, what's this? It's your 8th Cakeday GunslingerBara! ^(hug)

http://home-assistant.io

Some exist. I bought Ubiquiti ip cameras for this very reason. You can buy their NVR appliance, use their cloud or use an old computer and download the NVR software for free to set up a private server.

If you like this sort of thing then support it by buying it.

We're a niche market, but a desperate niche.

If you build it, we will throw our money at you. Someone please do it. Someone please.

I mean, I'll do it for ya, but I guarantee you won't want to pay what I charge you. Niche products are extremely expensive.

An open source DIY collaboration would be more realistic.

You're absolutely right.

And I like you.

How many people do you think are like you out there? Enough to make some angel investors Rich? Cause we could make this happen if there’s a sufficient demand...

Is it okay if my printer is from 2008?

[deleted]

Be cautious, if its a 3D printer it might make its own gun and shoot you! Of course, it would take 96 hours to complete so you might have time.

Oh no! It's going to kill me... eventually.

Is that supposed to be a downside?

r/2meirl4meirl

[deleted]

It’s not a bug, it’s a feature

Million dollars, but a hit-snail tracks you forever. It is immortal and causes instant death if it touches you.

Still better than having a printer.

https://youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dl4UFQWKjy_I&ved=2ahUKEwiJ0f-bi5jgAhWKwFkKHZFgAKkQjjgwCXoECAcQAQ

I love that they got nic cage for that role. Perfect casting.

Austin powers, is that you?

Hour 1: I wonder what the printer is making

Hour 14: Say, that looks like a gun

Hour 27: Yep that’s a gun

Hour 34, 2 hours to completion: unplugs 3-D printer

Including bullet travel time? Do I have to stay put or can I come back?

Bullets? Bullets? you want Bullets? That'll be another 96 hours print time (assuming no nozzle clog and that you are not using ABS).

Oh my god. I do have a 3d printer! I'm touching it right now, there is height, width.... AND DEPTH!

You forgot the 4th and worst of all.... HATE.

[deleted]

Nooooooo faggface

Do you think it can make a ray gun and shoot me with that?

That’s for just the lower receiver

I can't decide if this would lead to the most tense or least tense High Noon Showdown.

How do you remember your username?

I have a song about it.

Well? Dont just leave us hanging...

It's very similar to this.

Are you kidding? That is a recession era printer and it would do whatever it takes to pay the bills just to get by! Take it out back and punch it with your bare fists Office Space style

Come on, bare fists? Use the bat! It's a lot less of your own blood getting over the broken printer. ;)

Are you nuts?!

Does it help that I still use a flip phone?

Because of ink prices, I buy a new printer when it runs out / dries out :/

[deleted]

While that is true. 30 dollars on a printer, or 45 on ink is a large difference when it typically dries out before a year.

I don't do a ton of printing, but I haven't had to replace the ink since I got it.

Your ink stayed nice and moist :O

Might be Alberta's dry climate. Even my mum's toner ink ended up going funky eventually. I had never seen that when I was in Germany.

I used dot matrix at work until about 3 years ago.

Mine is too! It's a brother laser printer and that sucker just keeps on going. I bought a second toner cartridge for it when I got it, still using that second cartridge. I haven't spent money on printing (other than paper) since I bought it. Take that ink.

That's what I've got too! I got it for college and have yet to need another one.

I have a much newer printer. Had an inkjet since about 2009, but we didn't print often enough and the ink would dry. Ink costs were getting ridiculous.

A couple of years ago, I bought a laser printer, as toner doesn't have that issue. I have steadfastly refused to configure or use any of the "advanced Internet apps" on it.

[deleted]

Only use B+W laser,

That's what I've got

You need to drop off the grid buddy, I think it's too late though.

m 2008?

Lucky you. You seem to have one of the new models.

The note they found on your body reads:

"It looks like a gvvvvvvvvvvv.. "

Is it ok that I have electric locks? Im under no illusion about how easy they are to hack, but so are mechanical locks, and windows are even easier to break.

I have a HP Deskjet 2633 which took an hour to fucking connect today, having to sign in to HP to print too. It's like something from the 90s.

[deleted]

I'm more concerned about buggy behaviour and hacking.

Is it really that likely tho? Isn't it easyer to literally break the door lock than it is to hack it?

Unless you're some bigshot or you have A LOT of enemies i wouldn't mind those things honestly

Bot nets, and trolls are my worry.

Millions of door locks that have been hacked to DDOS, mine Bitcoin, or anything devious.

Trolls who want to hack a bunch of smart fridges and turn them off for giggles.

I don't really care about data mining or if some government agency is listening to me. My smart phone has a microphone, idk how often it activates itself, best to assume someone is listening all the time. I'd rather see politicians fight for data privacy and such like the EU has been doing.

The amount of processing power they have is very small, so bitcoin mining isn't a thing.

As far as devious, using them to ping an IP address, as they do for DDOS attacks would be the only real thing of danger.

The main issue is that they're just sorta shite, like sure the electronic lock will work just fine, but hammer and screwdriver beats lock 10/10 times. Not to mention that there are like always bugs related to freely unlocking them, always.

The security on internet of things stuff is basically non-existent.

like sure the electronic lock will work just fine, but hammer and screwdriver beats lock 10/10 times.

A foot works well if you don't have a hammer and screwdriver with you

Well I put that in there cause there're a few electronic locks that you can screw the faceplate off of, and just cross a wire or two, and bam it's open. That or just use a generic key to get in, since no one changes the keys on shit they buy from manufacturers.

It's literally that easy in some cases.

cause there're a few electronic locks that you can screw the faceplate off of, and just cross a wire or two, and bam it's open.

I'd still be easier to just kick it. Kicking a door in is ludicrously easy. Even with a deadbolt. I've done it a few times. Unless you have a solid oak door jam, with a steel reinforced plate, the average guy can kick it in, in one shot.

That's why whenever I move into a new house, I install reinforced strikeplates with long screws deep into the door frame. It's a relatively cheap way to protect against one of the most common break-in methods!

The processing power of an individual smart fridge is low, but the distributed power of 1.000.000 fridges might be enough to make some $$$

I'm probably thinking more of an IoT device being hijacked and used to infect a higher powered PC to do Bitcoin or other cyptocurrency mining.

Looks like you're correct that it's mostly DDOS attacks to worry about.

Yeah, I don't really get the point of IoT locks. I can see the use in remotely monitoring a thermostat or a fridge or something similar, but I'd rather have a dumb key personally.

Yeah. I’m more like “I know the security on this is shit. Great. Some asshole is going to turn off my fridge at night after they find some exploit that fucks with all the fridges at once.

Fuck. I have to update my god damn fridge’s firmware again.”

Ahaha that's the way I see some of these IoT devices. "Fuuuck I need to update this thing". Same thing with the "I need to plug in my battery powered widget because it died again".

I feel like the odds of a troll hacking my thermostat to make me uncomfortable is probably pretty low

You individually? Yeah, pretty low unless you're famous or something.

All Thermostats of that model, running a particular firmware? Probably not as low. Becomes more risky if you use an off brand thermostat that doesn't bother to put out security updates. Although even Google, Amazon and other tech companies get hit with vunerabilities, particularly due to open source libraries they might be using or just unexpected bugs that take time to be discovered and fixed.

Ya, I certainly wouldn't ever use a smart home device that wasn't from an industry champion with a good security track record.

Yeah, but they're usually working off malware and shit. No one is going through and hacking individual devices one by one to add to their botnet. Not being a part of a botnet is pretty damn easy.

Uh, Malware can infect IOT devices and turn them into botnets. I never said anything about individuals hacking a single device one at a time. There is Malware that scans devices on a network, checks for vunerabilities, infects devices, and continues to spread.

You're correct that someone who's tech savvy can easily avoid botnets, but for the average consumer this is difficult. Here's an example where a router exploit was used to build an 18,000 device botnet in a single day. Your average consumer is going to have no idea what is happening, and the security on IoT devices has been pretty lacking.

Ideally, you'd place IoT devices on a separate router than your normal one and you'd periodically check to make sure all IoT devices are updated and that vunerabilities haven't been reported for your brand of device. You'd also buy high quality devices from reputable brands. The average consumer isn't doing that - they hop on Amazon, buy the cheapest but best rated Chinese / foreign made knock off and they plug it in along side the rest of their devices. With no idea or concerns if it goes rogue.

You're correct that someone who's tech savvy can easily avoid botnets, but for the average consumer this is difficult.

This thread isn't about the average consumer. It's about IT professionals who are too paranoid or incapable of handling smart devices.

If you break a mechanical lock you have broken one lock. If you break a smart lock via software exploit, you have broken all smart locks of the same type. Thats the difference.

No? If that is the case than the lock manifacturer is just incredibly bad

Yes it is incredibly bad, but fact is that most companies are incredibly bad at it-security.

Oh, well then i guess you guys are right

I was gonna say I'm no it guy but wouldn't this be a major security oversight if hacking one lock oerma accessed any lock ever made of the same kind?

Well, if there is a major security flaw then the manufacurer is shit

Have you tried reverse engineering? It’s like opening a lock without the key. It’s very much possible with a lock picking set, and you can get good at it.

Oh, and you get really good at not leaving traces.

[deleted]

Uhm... Idk if you're kidding me or just not a 'professionel'.

IoT is VERY hackable, yes, but so is everything else. It's literally just a matter about being smart, practice and skills.
CTF is great practice for those skills :)

Is it really that likely tho? Isn't it easyer to literally break the door lock than it is to hack it?

Unless you're some bigshot or you have A LOT of enemies i wouldn't mind those things honestly

You have it backwards. It takes someone to be targeting you/your house in particular for it to be physically broken into. But you can target everyone's houses digitally.

The ease with which even a mediocre burglar can get into your house without alerting your neighbors or the police would shock most people. Almost all security is theater to make the consumer feel safe.

A lockpick set and the time to learn how to use it is way easier/cheaper than anything to hack a smart lock. A brick and/or a crowbar are even cheaper and easier. This is what most criminals are using.

And the deadbolts that would give someone a hard time aren't the deadbolts people typically install. Home security systems are essentially snake oil designed to give you the warm and fuzzies while stealing your money.

Police will tell you the only things that work are noise and cameras (even when fake). No one is targeting you (and if they are, you've already hired a private security firm from Israel), they're just looking for the easiest entry. All you have to do is be less desirable than your neighbors. Sucks to think about but it's the truth. You'll never get rid of crime, just move it down the street.

Get a dog and a camera and install whatever locks you want. They just prevent casual criminals anyway. Personally, I'm going for convenience. I like having a code that i can expire for dog walkers or whatever. That at least prevents key copying.

No, most locks that are hackable have shitty construction because they are constructed by tech nerds rather than actual locksmiths, meaning that getting into them is pretty fucking easy. Tbf most doorlocks are shitty too but a good lock is still better than current hackable locks

Many of these devices don't close the most basic ports. An nmap scan across the network of a "smart home"doesn't take a long time and nearly always provides at least one troublesome endpoint

A while back people couldn't open their doors because they had a smart Yale lock and Yale was performing server maintenance.

I mean, if you buy a smart lock that doesn't have the possibility to be opened mechanically with a key, you are buying into a stupid ass product

Problem being, some russian 12yearold from the heart of siberia can't break down my door as easily as he can break into my 99 cent chinesium internet-enabled door lock for shits and giggles

Me thinks you underestimate the Lulz bro.

Isn't it easyer to literally break the door lock than it is to hack it?

Well now you have two attack vectors instead of one. Including one that you don't really understand but it definitely possible.

Everyone in the world knows what a crowbar is and how it works.

Hacking a single specific person is very difficult. Hacking millions of people at once that use the same vulnerable IoT device is extremely easy. Someone can reverse engineer a single lightbulb, hack everyone using that specific bulb, and steal files from their network

Some guy hacked into my computer once, made pop up a chatbox to talk. I closed it, closed my web browser. Went browsing again and he popped up the chatbox again.

I turned off my computer, unplugged the rooter. Turned on my computer again, turned on my rooter. The guy made pop up the chatbox again. I unplugged the rooter, tried looking for files or something. Found some (not kidding) "backdoorBunchOfNumbersSomthing.exe". English isn't my first language so I wasn't sure what that was, but obviously it was a backdoor.

I don't know how he was able to do all that, my only guess would be using an ad that runs its own code in the background. Now I use Ublock Origin and I have JavaScript disabled by default, I have to manually turn it on for every site I visit.

TL:DR hackers hack, it happens. There's also many stories of guys hacking into women's webcams and basically spying.

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Simple. Manual mic switch, linux for all things that arent gaming/specialised software (or even that if you put in the time, wine has gotten pretty good)

I run all the smart home stuff but I really have no fear of being hacked or data mined. I just don't use any cloud services in my setup aside from Google home and Letsencrypt certbot. I only use Google home for turning on a couple of lights that don't have switches. My "hub" is a server box I built myself with spare PC parts. It's running a Linux server with a mounted Z-wave USB stick. It runs everything in Docker containers behind an Nginx reverse proxy with SSL encryption (also running as a container). I setup some basic iptable rules to log repetitive failed access and issue temp bans, and I have my Docker setup to drop Nginx and Home Assistant logs to mounted folders from my local network share. I just check them regularly and automatically clear them out so any suspicious activity is actually pretty easy to spot even just from glancing at the log file size. Even a short ban after like 5 failed login attempts will slow down any attacker long enough to where it's realistically impossible for them to make it in before I notice something is up. The Z-wave network itself is also encrypted. All the locks, motion sensors, door sensors, and smart lights use encrypted Z-wave and I just don't buy products that aren't Z-Wave and won't associate with my generic Z-wave stick so I don't have to worry about being tracked from those devices.

I have 6-8 generic chinese brand wireless security cameras on my network, however I port scanned each one and watched the network traffic for 8-12 hours before hooking them up to make sure none were "phoning home". They are only accessible if you are connected to the WiFi network, and to my server which is secured as stated above. I have a secure Web UI which allows me to view the entire system away from home. It is only account/password protected however I have the same lockout mechanism for failed attempts, and logs to see suspicious activity. My only concern with regards to being data mined is the Google home commands and If I'm that concerned, I've got options like using an open source voice assistant platform such as Jasper with a Raspberry Pi and a USB mic.

Why be paranoid when you can understand how to secure your network and know what's going on with it? Then you can actually take advantage of it instead of living in fear...

Have you integrated HASS with your Google home?

My student appartment had electric door locks, that wouldnt open in a black out.

Not even hacking. Why would somebody hack me? Way too much work for nothing (provided u dont use smart bank stuff)

I'm more concerned about expensive hardware/software no longer being supported, so then you have to buy more expensive hardware/software. Not to mention the shoddy security those companies use.

Lock and key are just fine.

No one cares enough to hack you.

Let me tell you something right now, it's going to be a bitter pill to swallow.

You aren't important enough to get hacked.

Laughably moronic comment. Firstly you don't know anything about me and the value of the data I handle in my job, secondly hacking happens all the time to people who've got no reason to be a target simply because they're vulnerable.

I'm sorry - but you arent, told you it would be a bitter pill to swallow. You are 110% not important enough to have someone maliciously seek out to hack you. If you were to be hacked, it would be because you were phished or keylogged (aka you're a moron).

I can ASSURE you that you are not special, you are not important, you are nothing to nobody outside of your family/friends/peers.

Doubling down on your idiocy I see. How can you even pretend to know how valuable I would be to target? Just because you happen to be a waste of entropy who's never been within a mile of any data or intellectual property worth stealing doesn't mean everyone else on the internet is in the same position.

I work for the Department of Defense as an ISFSE.

Prior to that job I worked as a Security specialist for the Department of the Navy.

Your argument is non-existent, because you can't fathom someone actually working in the Security sector calling you out for not being important. You aren't, trust me.

Keep being a bleeding heart though.

Lmao, must have been slim pickings in the CV pile when they hired you if your security "wisdom" extends to advising strangers not to worry about hacking despite having zero knowledge of their job and security privileges.

Just because you are already datamined doesn't mean you have to make it easier for them.

I go with the line of thinking that instead of just avoiding it, I should avoid and mess it up. Avoid what I can, and make a complete mess of it where I cant avoid it. AdNauseam style.

Man I VPN, filter traffic, turn off mic and location services, use browser extensions, custom firewall, have no social media...and I'm still not sure I'm not being mined. I even make a new Reddit account once a year or so.

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I tend to overwrite comments because I heard that's the best approach. With reddit it's not really about advertising. I don't even get any ads directly and I'm usually on a VPN when using it. With reddit it's about making a very devoted enemy who stalks my post history to piece together my identity.

I'm sure with a remarkable amount of devotion someone could possibly piece together past reddit accounts and stuff too, but my goal is to make it very very hard. It's not perfect but if you want to be part of the internet community, even anonymously, you have to take risks these days. Can't go 100% off grid, but you can shield yourself in many ways.

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Cool, and with Python too!

I'm just letting myself fall into wherever this is heading, smart everything

Amazon and Google already know more about me than I do, might as well get a little bit of convenience out of it.

That's my take on it too... I don't know if that's the right approach tho

That’s not true, look at GDPR. Any company that refuses to comply can face massive fines, which is the one thing corporations truly care about.

I’m not saying it will be easy, but it’s definitely possible

Unless you live in the USA which is becoming more like China than Europe surveillance wise. I VPN cause my ISP can sell my data.

Yeah I work in the "data industry" and there are quite a few companies out there who exist solely to know everything about you. Most of the data doesn't really originate from the tech industry and instead has everything to do with the paper trail you leave in your non-technical, real world endeavors.

Last time I moved, a company mailed me at my new address (not forwarded) to tell me they noticed I moved and that they updated my contact info for me. That's a real service you can buy, monitoring when your customer moves before they even tell you, even if they didn't forward their mail.

The stuff they know about you is pretty amazing. They can have my grocery list.

Sorry, I can't quite accept that resistance is futile. I'm gonna keep pushing back against the forces of inevitability, and I recommend doing the same.

I know that but I still try to have as small of a digital footprint as possible so if someone wants to hack or track me they have to work harder, and that just makes my day.

Yeah but people think they sound smarter when they reject mainstream stuff based off paranoia they don't fully understand.

This. To anyone opposed to having an Alexa or Google Home listening in their house 24/7, I hate to break this to you, but your phone already does that.

>He uses a smartphone

I protect myself reasonably well, but it's possible that all my info is out there from the OPM breach. Besides, I'm not gonna dull my life with paranoia or deprive myself of cool and/or useful technology.

This. I don’t care anymore.

"Resistance is Futile"

working in IT you already know you've been fully data-mined for every conceivable little detail, yet you game them nearly NULL

eww, fixed this for IT

At least this way I get voice commands.

I work in big data software, the trick is to just lean into it. If they’re gonna data mine me anyways I might as well get better advertisements out of it.

I can't bring myself to care honestly, I know I should care and I do not want to live in a world where we have no privacy, but unless companies are listening to my voice and recording me I can not say it bothers me all that much.

​

However I will always fight against abuse of our data because I know others DO care and the slippery slope it will be if you just allow it to happen, you know, give an inch they take a mile.

Obfuscation is not fruitless. You need more separate accounts and lie more on online forms.

If they want my data they can have their shitty models choke on lies. That's probably why Google keeps guessing my location and is towns away.

This is how I think as a marketer. I’ve seen all the information companies use to market towards people, we’re all transparent at this point, might as well use it to our advantage and have them suggest something useful for my life

When I hesitated, ten years ago, to do my banking online, my husband (in IT) calmly explained that opening an online account just gave me access to data that was already there, for anyone to hack. I never fully recovered.

Me. I'm not working in IT but was part of my curriculum in school.

They know everything anyways, why not get the fancy home apps? As long as it doesn't have a camera...

This is the correct response to this BS post.

That’s kinda how I feel most of the time.

They already know everything about you so you might as well get something cool back for it.

This brings up the scene from Ocean's 11 about the 3 most attempted successful casino robberies .

What do they all have in common? Smash and grab.

If a robber wants your TV, he's taking the easiest method. Smash a window, grab the tv and run, Time 40seconds.

anyone willing to learn programming, hack my lock, security system, camera's is going after high end stuff. Not my pre-smart tv from 2008.

Unless the company that makes your smart-lock stops updating and someone identifies a zero-day vulnerability so a group of script kiddies go wardriving all over town unlocking everyone's homes.

In the case of my Z-Wave deadbolt, it hides behind a smart hub. If the smart hub is deprecated, that's a much more apparent issue, but at least there's a whole abstract layer sitting between the internet and my lock, lights, whatever.

In the case of IP Cams that WERE hacked, they had direct internet access and, retardedly, manufacturers offered easy-to-guess hostnames as well as default admin passwords. You can't simply scrape the internet for smart devices behind a hub, or hell, even the hub itself. Smartthings actually did deprecate v1 of their product and it straight up took it offline.

No device is un-crackable, but I'm pretty comfortable with the layers I have sitting between my home network and the internet to know that, unless someone came after me directly, I shouldn't be susceptible to the lowest-common-denominator hacks that make it to the evening news.

I keep all my smart devices on a separate network than my home network Eg: a network cable plugged from one router to another that's just for my smart home stuff.

So I just need a second router and a network cable to do this?

Pretty much yeah, a network cable from one router to another, I actually have it set up a bit different, I connect to my main network via a Linux machine then share that connection to the router via a second Ethernet card with most ports blocked/firewalled.

Edit* I did start with just the wire/ports/though

You really, really should not rely on "not exposed to the Internet" as a security mechanism. It's perfectly possible to compromise devices that make outbound connections, and it happens.

I took the batteries out of my smart lock... I'm good right? It's totally just abnormal front door now?

And this has ever happened at what point in history?

for hotel locks it has

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43896360

Vulnerabilities in deprecated code are identified all the time. Usually it just results in a web page hack because internet-connected devices aren't ubiquitous enough yet.

internet-connected devices aren't ubiquitous enough yet.

Oh. Ok.

IMO this isn't about someone swiping your TV, it's about being spied on and having your data stolen.

That's half the point - fancy locks don't make your sliding-glass doors safer.

But a classic tumbler lock can't get a worm that steals your credit card number.

Jokes on you, my credit score is in the crapper. I couldn't apply for a payday loan!

^^^^

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Had to scroll down way too far to find this. I know dozens of software engineers who have smart devices. This meme is outdated

I know dozens of software engineers who have smart devices

The thing is this sub is mostly populated by students who dont have a house to use this stuff on neither the money to buy it.

I feel attacked.

Alexa, play despacito and then self-destruct.

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Google sometimes does now. I can say "Turn on the kitchen lights and the living room lights" and it works 30% of the time.

Try "turn off the kitchen lights and then turn off the living room lights."

On the other hand, it's despacito, so it's technically all one command.

If Alexa learns logic then we're fucked.

Alexa, try play despacito and then self destruct catch play despacito

My Alexa is plugged into a smart outlet, maybe not self destruct but she can turn herself off and not turn back on :D

Would you like me to play you a song, Dave?

Are you sure you can afford feelings?

Feelings are free so that you may feel your oppression

Don't feel bad. I'm not a student but still don't have a house nor the money to buy any of the stuff. We are all in this together.

Write a bot to follow this guy around and write responses to him telling him so. It's the only logical response here.

Maybe you'll get off reddit and get to working in the coal mines then. /s

I rent, but also have a Nest, Google Home(s), Hue lights, and a Roomba. They're very easy to integrate and remove if necessary. I didn't have no money before, but now I have no money.

populated by students

Two huge tells about this:

  • Everyone here thinks nobody in the field knows what they are doing.
  • Everyone here thinks missing semicolons are actual problems.

"wait until you learn recursion, that's the real deal"

ill have you know my studio cost more than your house!

Maybe, the world is pretty big and the housing differs wildly. Anyhow, I hope not man :)

You insensitive clod! I'm a college professor who doesn't have a house to use this stuff on nor the money to buy it! cries in debt

10 years out of college here, I definitely fit what's described in the OP. I'm a very late adopter of tech. I used my old phone for 9 years and finally had to get a new one... I miss my old phone.

True, but the vast majority of software engineers I've met in the 6 years I've been working professionally don't trust most "smart home" junk either, and the exceptions (rightfully) treat them as novelty toys.

I've had the opposite experience. The vast majority, self included automate every single thing. We are the masters and they are the slaves.

.... I named all of my stuff after skynet

But be careful out there! A HACKER could turn your lights blue.

Orrrrr, its just a funny comic that even people who use those products can kinda relate to?

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I've already lost my privacy so I might as well get some utility in return for it

That's basically my response when people say Google is doing the same tracking as Facebook.

The difference is that with Google I get really good mail, the best search, and YouTube. Plus all the other shit they offer.

With Facebook you only get depression.

Plus it seems (could be wrong) that Google mostly uses data for ads on their own platform, while Facebook likes to lose or sell data to third parties.

It's also really funny because I fucking love targeted ads. I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't particularly like ads but if I have to see them I prefer them to be targeted.

I would rather see "Hey this brewing company has a sale on their equipment" than "SHOOT THE DUCK AND WIN A FREE PHONE!" that was EVERYWHERE in the early 2000s. It's a win for literally everyone when the ad is targeted.

My biggest problem with targeted ads is that I'll buy something on Amazon then start seeing ads for the thing I bought everywhere.

I completely agree. There needs to be a "closed loop" sort of ad. I just bought a Kitchenaid stand mixer I'm not going to buy a second one. Your analytics should be able to account for this.

Right, but how about this deal on a KitchenAid stand mixer?

You should buy some of the sick attachments though. Just spiralized some sweet potatoes last night for breakfast burritos

See, that would be wonderful for targeted ads. Purchase something? Hey maybe you'd like to see this sale on attachments.

Targeted ads can be used as a weapon. At work I found this super gaudy toilet seat in some random online store (It was somehow relevant to the conversation we were having. Don't ask). I shared the link with the team. For the next few weeks that toilet seat kept popping up in everyone's ads.

I've been saying the same thing for the past 2 years anytime the "your microphone is always listening to you" conversation comes up. I was starting to think no one else agreed. Like if I'm going to see ads, I'd rather it be for something I'd probably want/need, than something completely useless. On the other hand, it does suck when you look up something out of curiosity then your ads are for that from then on out, even if you didn't actually want it.

I don't like ads in general, but if I have to have ads I like targeted vs non targeted.

SHOOT THE DUCK AND WIN A FREE PHONE

This is some weird ass nostalgia

Right now the targeting is pretty poor. Maybe one day it'll be useful, but right now it just tried to convince me to buy the same pants I bought five mins ago.

Whoever they're selling to are suckers then considering I dont look at almost any ads

Theyre most likely still effecting you subconsciously. It's almost impossible to escape the influence of advertising on your brain

I'd have to actually see it first

Adblockers exist

Google uses blackbox ad targeting iirc which is the least evil form of ad targeting

Google lets you wipe your data too

They used have good mail. Now it is dogshit. Search and youtube are their bread and butter.

Also, at least Google is more upfront about it. Like, it's painfully obvious it's tracking you the second you get the email showing a timeline of everywhere you've been in the past month.

Facebook irks me because it feels like they want to hide it more.

And my personal favorite use: Google Traffic. I've spent a lot less time in traffic the past few years.

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I've used duckduckgo, and it works for some things, but a good chunk of the time I get better results from Google.

It probably boils down to Google knowing more about me and the things I'd be looking for.

Hell at work I'm not logged into my account and Google still gives good results.

Hey now, duckduckgo has a perfectly good search

Eh I kind of disagree. I love the company and what they stand for but every attempt to switch just has me running back to google. It’s good for really obvious searches but if you like to go a bit deep then it just doesn’t really hold a candle up to google. I’m a programmer and I find that it’s just terrible with programming related questions

Privacy is not binary. Not something you either have, or not.

It's a context-based, gradient. When you are wanking off, you need more privacy then when you are at a concert.

When you are wanking off, you need more privacy then when you are at a concert.

You, maybe

Scoff

Sure. But I've lost some degree of privacy whether I want to or not so I might as well at least get something in return for it

Eh it may not be binary but it's definitely a step function. Once enough data is collected there is a lot more they can find out by data mining without actual first hand data. Once you cross that threshold the loss of privacy is significant enough it might as well be binary

Its absolutely crazy how okay you guys are with this.

It's not about being ok with it. It's simply a fact of using technology now. If u have a smartphone you can be spied on. Your internet history can be monitored. Even your phone calls are on record somewhere. Unless you plan to live your life in a cave somewhere there's not much you can do about it.

There absolutely are lots of things you can do about it....

Rationalising it to yourself for the sake of convenience is not of of them.

I've already lost my privacy so I might as well get some utility in return for it

Yeah. I'm there too. But I did chose who I'm a bitch to (google).

This.

It's not an on or off thing, just because you had a Facebook doesn't mean they have a finger on your pulse for the rest of time and you should just give in. Your footprint fades over time, it's never too late to start cutting off companies from your livelihood

I gotta ask... Realistically, how does it affect me? Guarding my privacy like a coveted artifact grants me no noticable difference, whereas having smart devices at home greatly increases my quality of life and productivity. Why wouldn't I choose the latter?

It's a stretch but one theory I've heard is that as more data about you is required, more powerful predictions about your behavior call be made. For example, based on posting frequency, Facebook "knows" you're falling out of love with your significant other before you do.

So, as ads get more sophisticated and evolve from the clickbait-y Facebook "HOT SINGLES IN YOUR HOUSE RIGHT NOW" style into something that you don't even recognize as an actual ad (this is just what I've heard and don't have examples), then it can slightly influence your way of thinking. Such thought manipulation is scary if you consider the power it has, like perhaps swaying voters in an election.

The problem is that these are things that influence other people. I use adblock and don't go on any social media other than Reddit. The consequences for other people are bad, sure, but I can't control what they decide to do.

For a super interesting take on this, watch Brexit on HBO with Ben Cumberbatch. I'm not sure how much of it is factual but it was definitely an interesting cautionary tale

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Facebook got hit with some tough legal trouble for tracking non facebook members using phone numbers and contacts list of facebook members. for the sake of safety I'll just assume they still do it, nothing you can do there aside stand up and say "no more" which is what people have been doing lately.

web trackers exist, and there are programs that block and stop them, one app called "facebook container" entirely stops facebook tracking widgets from following you. I also use an ad blocker called Ghostly that stops all trackers it can from any party and reports on ones it can't so you can stop them with a script tool.

I'll never have 100% anonymity, but fighting it is whats making people aware of the issue.

Exactly. My privacy is long gone - so now I choose to get something in return for once

"I've already given them so much information, might as well give them more"

???

Actually...

It's taken a while, but I keep the GPS off on my phone, switched to Brave browser everywhere, and a few other privacy-related items, and I don't really get any of the strange product suggestions others have been mentioning.

I thought this meme was about knowing the dangers of exposing something with access to parts of your house to the internet, and therefore, exposing yourself to potential security breaches. But even then firewalling your IoT devices well will reduce that quite a bit

I'm more concerned with reliability, and to a lesser degree security.

Something like a Google router that's inherently networked is fine, but stuff like door locks, fuck no.

Yeah my mentality is they already know a ton of information about me, so turning off my phones GPS or not buying a smart device really wont do anything.

If you are in a city your position can be tracked via WiFi routers anyway.

Plus it's not like any one entity even "knows," anything about me. It's all just aggregate marketing shit. Until I'm on some powerful person's radar, no one the fuck cares about me, and that's fine.

That isn't true, assuming you're in the US. There are multiple competing systems that know a shitload about you. It's how credit applications, background checks, collections, repos, process serving, etc., all work. Little to none of that uses any of the fluff marketing data these tech companies have, though.

There are dozens of us! Dozens!

Sadly the tweet in that image is from this month.

To be fair, Reddit is allegedly filled with more IT people than many others and you had to scroll down pretty far to find one person who claims to be a software engineer that likes smart houses.

And the "software engineers" rationale is that having a smart phone and a gaming rig means you're alredy being monitored...

Do none of you see the contradiction? A "software engineer" who alleges they have a secure "smart house " set-up but can't fathom a secure smart phone or private PC?

You all might want to re-think if this is good advice.

Exactly, also from a security perspective it's always been wrong. The number of homes whose biggest security vulnerability is someone hacking the smartlock is exceptionally small.

ITT: Guys with no bars on their 1st floor windows, sending dick pics to near strangers talking about avoiding IoT cause they might get their house broken into or their privacy exposed.

It's basically the nerd equivalent of a suburban mom who smokes a pack a day but freaks out about vaccines and fluoridated water.

No no. I just followed a Hello World tutorial. Look how much smarter I am than an average Joe now!..... /s

I just don't want Amazon to be opening my door for the freelance delivery guy from a 3rd party small business.

Being able to tell Google to start the roomba from work is great. Plus, just asking Google information is way more useful and I really like my hue lights.

I want a smart thermostat, but I live in an apartment and can't replace it. I talked my mom into getting one and it's great.

My life goal is to have a house with thermostatic shower mixers

Dreeeeeams

I mean being monitored is still a thing. Personally I just use convenient (smart)products and hope it never comes back at me. Same with using Google Chrome, which probably is even a bigger violator than all smart products combined.

No doubt. It's a personal decision as to where your line is regarding trade offs. If you really didn't want you data harvested you would have to avoid more than smart home products.

The meme isn’t even outdated, it’s just pretentious. “I don’t have smart lights, so I’m going to be smug about my reasons for not having them” - sent from my iPhone, just after Venmo-ing my friend for pizza last night.

I'm in IT security...almost all of us have smart home thingimagigs

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Cooking timers! Hopefully you are using it for that too. It's handy just to tell her to track the 3 different things that all have to cook at the same time.

Oh yea, that too!

Yes, it's pretty much on par with the general public.

Hi, I believe I fall into that category. Hue, Nest, Google Homes everywhere. Also an engineer and very much understand the risks....also own guns.

nobody denies that there are "not so smart" software engineers.

It is outdated by at least 15 years.

I think the biggest part of this meme being IT people not having smart devices is due to literally supporting and debugging devices and services all day long. The last thing we want to do is come home to more buggy behavior to simply watch tv or turn the heater on.

That being said as an IT Software Engineer i have Alexa connected to my raspberry pi multiroom audio setup.

Yeah, most of my friends have smart devices all over their homes, even one of my friends who eschews all social media due to information privacy.

Yeah but do you build websites for a living or are you actually designing software?

I really shouldn't feed the trolls, but I'm a backend engineer. The only UIs I ever touch are internal facing.

How does Alexa stock your fridge?

Alexa is actually the name of OPs housekeeper

“Maria, play the song Despecito”

“Si, senor”

María goes to grab the guitar.

This comment makes me laugh every time I read it.

I think you misspelt wife

He works in IT let's not get ahead of ourselves

More turkey mister Chandler?

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Someday in the near future we truly will be able to just sit on our lazy asses and masturbate 24/7.

Then humanity will have truly peaked.

But only for a short while. Then we’ll regret it.

and close all the tabs.

implying it wouldnt be in vr

When you get down to it, hasn’t that always our goal.

Followed by a collective wave iof disgust

"Go away, bate'n''"

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Depends on the person.

Exactly it'll just give you more free time. How you spend that is up to you

By that time there would have been smart fleshlights

“Alexa, switch from suck to blow”

Come back here you fat bearded bitch!

Alexa, notify me when this happens.

You mean you don't already?

Way ahead of you.

TIL I live in the future.

We will have robots for that. If you do yourself then you are living in the past.

"Gather 'round kids. Let Papa tell you a story about life in 2019"

And even that will have robots to assist with

It's great if you eternally eat the same stuff.

Spoiler: the vast majority of people do.

How many people that own bollocks like that also could quote Tyler from Fight Club's rant about people buying shit they don't need

That sounds like a great way to end up with rotten food in the fridge.

There's a brexit joke in there somewhere.

Wheat fields will forever be my favourite meme

Must be nice to be rich.

I can fill up my car without looking at the price meter now. Its a nice feeling, but I'm not rich. Just not scraping pennies either. Comfortable and happy!

I am now officially jealous

I guess it either buys the things on internet or it adds them all to the shopping list

Smart Fridge keeps track of your inventory, Orders on Amazon.com for items low/missing, within a day of your milk running out, you get a Drone delivery to your front door.

Quantity does also matter - it's not all or nothing thing. Like every security measure nothing is 100% secure you just make it harder to brake in.

I'd rather someone really go out of their way to monitor me (phone zerodays, etc), than willingly give everything away to a private company for (subjectively) not much gain.

But that's exactly what you're doing already by owning a phone and using the internet. How is Alexa or whatever any different?

Facebook knows I'm a 30 something white male programmer who likes video games, drinks often, dresses poorly. Them and everyone who's ever met me for 5 minutes.

Many of these assistant services store audio logs "in the cloud" for training data. I'm wondering not if, but when, audio file dumps from home assistants will leak online, just like password dumps appear online today.

I know most of these companies aren't really malicious, because it's not in their business model to be particularly malicious, but I don't trust any of them to not be incompetent.

Their data sets have already been used to influence elections and referendums.

When it was just folk who'd had a 5 min interaction with you, you were limited with your exposure towards malicious use of that information to maybe 2000 people in your entire life. Facebook will happily just sell that info - or just give away in some cases - to the highest bidder who can merge it with all the other info out there and influence your opinions.

You don't need to be worries about it, but don't be so naive as to think Facebook only knows you've got shit jeans in your wardrobe and a drinking problem.

Saying you don't care about privacy because you have nothing to hide is like saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say.

Ok, Facebook knows I'm a 30 something white male

What are they going to do, sell your data to foreign intel agencies who will use it to psychologically profile you and deceive you into voting against your own interests? KEK

No but they are tracking everything you have ever done or said and every place you have been. Now imagine if they had a log of everything you have done and there is a 0 day exploit that leaks everything they have stored. Now your entire life is available for anyone to dig through. What if you have a crazy ex out there or you have said something that pisses a group of and they make it their job to hunt you down.

Just because you are already (partially) monitered doesn't mean you have to just hand out your data to everyone. And if someone hacks into my computer it is far easier to deal with it than if someone would hack into my doorlock. (And before someone says that mechanical locks can be defeated: yes but it is about delaying the intruder, with a smart lock the intruder can enter your home while making it look like they enter legitimately)

[deleted]

There are locks which many tried to rack but nobody succeeded. Racking also means noise and tools, while a smart lock could be openend in a way that looks perfectly legit to bystanders.

You can take a look at mechanical locks and judge their security but you can't do that with smart locks.

There are locks which many tried to rack but nobody succeeded.

And they aren't on your door.

[deleted]

I meant noisy in comparison to openening a smart lock via some kind of software exploit.

Your common theif won't be reverse engineering a smart lock

But he might download/buy the needed software as a complete package online.

[deleted]

And even that kids toy only worked for older garage door openers with a set code. How many electronic locks have been installed on houses and how many have been 'mysteriously' bypassed?

There is a difference between being appropriately cautious and being outright paranoid. The OP and this thread seems full of the latter.

If you're that worried about your lock being broken just put a camera behind it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Maybe you're thinking of lock bumping? I know that's super loud because you have to apply a sudden impulse.

I had an electric ratteling device in mind when writing this.

It’s less a security issue and more a “I don’t want to spend my day fixing badly behaving technology, only to go home and have to deal with more badly behaving technology”.

Why do I need a reason beyond "none of this shit appeals to me"

After I bought Philips Hue for each place in my apartment there is no going back. It’s so comfortable to manage lights with just a phone or a notebook/pc. And routines are extremely useful and helpful.

Pretty sure I had this discussion on the original post of this. Anyone who "works in IT" but can't setup a secure home smart system needs to take some more classes. The least secure device I own is the Echo, and even that is temporary until I get Mycroft online. Everything else is blocked from the outside and secured to reasonable levels.

Z-wave devices aren't even on the standard network protocol, leaving them pretty safe from any attack and incapable of talking over my wifi, and Home Assistant is open-source and capable of connecting to all sorts of things out of the box, and can be setup to be more secure than their phone. It doesn't even need internet access. These "IT" people just have no clue what the smart home environment looks like today and are basically uninformed and fear-mongering.

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if the echo is temporary and the rest of the system is self contained, where will the corps get that data?

Self contained as in air-gapped? Because anything else and you're all trying to shovel shit here.

Yes, z-wave devices are effectively airgapped because they are not on the network. Home Assistant can be "airgapped" by not being on the network at all too. But that doesn't really need to be done when it's open-source and not phoning home any data to begin with.

im not the nsa dude. reasonably self contained. if they want your info they will get it, they resources we don't. you can still protect from the standard techniques pretty reasonably.

So don't use the internet.

The thing about Amazon is they're a retailer too so whatever data they have on you they're just going to hoard for their own use rather than sell it.

Egad, not my data!

That ship sailed ages ago. If you're on the grid enough to access reddit, you're being monitored already.

Of course I'm being monitored but that doesn't mean I want to volunteer a constant stream of even more intimate data up for my shadow profile. That's like saying "well I got splashed with a few drops of water so I might as well jump in the deep end of the pool, I'm already wet"

Not to get too specific, but in the line of work I do I can generally use little more than a full name and a county or general geographic region to get a list of any person's aliases, SSN, former addresses, properties, phone numbers, vehicles, relatives, neighbors, etc. 99.9% of the data comes from traditional industries, not tech.

Working in this industry I realized the last thing I care about is Amazon knowing I like bath bombs.

I'm just saying that we should be fighting for more privacy in general. Like, sure, there's all this information out there about us. Let's try to figure out how to reign that in through technology and/or policy.

Like to me, it doesn't stand to reason that just because some data is out there I want to voluntarily invite more breaches if privacy into my home.

A good example is all these "cloud based" home security systems. So you're telling me that video footage of inside my home, all day every day, is going to "the cloud" (someone else's computer) where we all know that the "production engineers" have full access to those files for debugging/feature development/whatever the he they want? And new data breaches happen every day? No thanks.

With Amazon, it's not that you like bath bombs, it's that Alexa wants to be the top of the pyramid of the home control, the human interface that has access to everything in your home network and "smart home" devices. It can unlock your door, it can disable the alarms, it can access any open port on any device on your network. It's a Trojan horse, just waiting for some kind of exploit to be discovered. Not to mention the "phoning home" about everything it knows.

As a programmer you should know that Murphy's law always applies. I think that's the point of this meme.

I'm just saying that we should be fighting for more privacy in general. Like, sure, there's all this information out there about us. Let's try to figure out how to reign that in through technology and/or policy.

Sure, I just think this is very much the wrong place to give your fucks. Your credit card company sells everything about you and is the actual root cause of the vast majority of identity theft in the US. My Z-wave devices don't do that. Owning 1 credit card is more dangerous than owning 1 Alexa, hands down.

A good example is all these "cloud based" home security systems. So you're telling me that video footage of inside my home, all day every day, is going to "the cloud" (someone else's computer) where we all know that the "production engineers" have full access to those files for debugging/feature development/whatever the he they want? And new data breaches happen every day? No thanks.

I agree with this one, tbf. Ring just got in trouble for a similar thing, engineers watching random videos. But smart devices != Cloud, you can have a smart home and still avoid those things.

With Amazon, it's not that you like bath bombs, it's that Alexa wants to be the top of the pyramid of the home control, the human interface that has access to everything in your home network and "smart home" devices. It can unlock your door, it can disable the alarms, it can access any open port on any device on your network. It's a Trojan horse, just waiting for some kind of exploit to be discovered. Not to mention the "phoning home" about everything it knows.

If you set up your Alexa to control your door locks you are doing a bad job, full stop, and should not automate anything, ever. If there's one anywhere near an outside wall then someone could easily yell at her through a door or window, that's a legit terrible security flaw.

If everyone else is playing in the pool and having fun, yeah, I'm probably also going to jump in.

I'm not that afraid of getting wet.

Also the water is corrosive and melts your clothes off. And also there are underwater cameras in the pool taking pictures of your naked body and putting them all over the internet.

Whatever, maybe you don't care about privacy... That's fine. But you were kinda talking down to those that do, which is what I take offense to. You don't have to care but I don't think it's stupid or wrong to care.

Mate, everyone is talking down to everyone, don't try to high road me. Look at the original post here.

I don't think my camera-less Echo is melting my clothes and posting naked pictures of me online. I do think it's providing value to my life. If you don't think an Echo would provide value or that the potential negatives outweigh the benefits, I wouldn't recommend one. Same as any other thing you might buy.

if you already have HIV, it's cool to get as many different strains of it as possible

If you're going to be ridiculous, at least go full Godwin.

"If I already have a mustache, might as well go full Hitler."

How is it ridiculous though? It's a too-common justification that HIV-positive people actually use.

In the data aspect, you're increasing the amount of data you're sharing, and additionally increasing the number of companies that have hands on your data. Sure, just by existing in society you're already at a high chance of being buggered... but there's no shame in not wanting to share even more data, especially if you don't appreciate the benefits -- instead of it being a mutually beneficial relationship, it's parasitic.

HIV has no benefits, and clear detriments.

"Smart" devices have benefits many people enjoy, and nebulous potential detriments.

If you don't appreciate the benefits offered, then you shouldn't buy them, who on Earth do you think is arguing otherwise?

Sharing needles and sharing data have different benefits for different people.

I refuse to believe you think this is a comparison made in good faith.

I stare at a computer screen for 50 hours a week for work and I spend another 5-10 hours a week on continuing education, the last theing I want to be bothered with is trying to setup and secure a smart home. The cobblers children go barefoot.

Also anyone who thinks that they can secure anything hasnt worked in IT enough to see the crazy attack vectors that people have managed to exploit. Not that everything needs to be super secure, but belief that you can secure anything is misguided.

Every time someone thinks they know the answer to maximize security we are welcomed with some new threat that exploits a weakness that was never considered. THEIR work is shit while MY work is flawless.

Who wants to hack my echo? Like, who wants to go through me asking it the weather 3 times a day?

Also putting IT in quotes like that is...yikes.

This. I'm not even an engineer/programmer (I'm a graphic designer), but that shit all scares the fuck out of me. A system is secure until it isn't, and the risk/reward ratio of having an lot of these 'features' is severely counterbalanced by the potential for someone to abuse it. The home assistants creep me out because they're always listening (I shut my computer down when not in use and disconnect microphones when shutting down) and depend on that to work (I can put my phone in a blanket to muffle its' microphone if I really need to). Internet-connected thermostats just seem like a gold mine for potential burglars to determine when you're home/not home if they gain access to that for...what? So I can control the temperature in my home when I'm not there? I don't think I've ever needed to do that, it really seemed like a product designed to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

If I really wanted a smart home I'd get some kind of VoiceAttack system set up on a closed network that doesn't talk to anything outside of the LAN. It'd be janky, sure, but at least I'd feel better about who it is talking to.

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The problem they aim to solve is reducing energy cost by dynamically setting temperature in your house based on the number of occupants detected and which rooms they're in. Traditional thermostat schedules only work for households with consistent schedules.

So explain to me why this system needs to be connected to the internet at all.

You think people robbing homes are the same ones capable of hacking encrypted networks? Really? How much shitty tv and action movies have you been watching...

The worst someone could do to me is open my garage door to gain access (turning on lights doesn't "scare" me) - except that the connection to get into the system to open my garage door is far more secure than the standard garage door opener systems that come built-in. It's far more likely that they buy some device that captures the signal sent from the remotes and use that to open my garage and steal shit than hacking into my system to check my thermostat to see if I'm home - it's also far more likely that they just knock on the door to see if I'm home, and if not, go around back and throw a rock through a window. I mean seriously, come the fuck on and think through these scenarios a bit. To top it off, by having a doorbell camera (and other cameras) I'm more protected against burglars than you or anyone else who is so paranoid that their system would be used against them. At least I'll have evidence.

You think people robbing homes are the same ones capable of hacking encrypted networks? Really? How much shitty tv and action movies have you been watching..

Never said I did, but underestimating threats is a time-honored way of getting fucking rekt. Why are you being so defensive about it, anyway? How does my decision and reasoning not to use IoT devices affect you in any way?

No one is underestimating or being defensive, I'm just saying it's silly to think of these overly complex scenarios to defend against this mythical burglar-hacker- but even if he did exist, that's what encryption is for. Fwiw, I don't use a smart thermostat, but anyway, I just think you sound paranoid, and I bet you use far more risky tech on the regular for the convenience, so while you may not see a need for things it doesn't mean other people don't.

All homes will be smart homes eventually, except for fanatical hold outs. Eventually these fears will go the way of social media, and we can start controlling a lot more of our environment around us. The IoT’s happening.

The home assistant is only listening for the word "Alexa" (or whatever). As far as I know, the microphone component is a small memory microcontroller that isn't connected to the internet - it really can only store the keyword and a second or two more for buffer while it gets communications with the larger, internet connected microcontroller up.

I don't disagree that it takes time to setup. I don't ever mess with mine after I spent a month doing the setup and getting the devices I want integrated. But that's fine, understandable that you don't want to learn yet another new system/language etc. I'm endlessly learning new things, so it wasn't a big deal to me, but I get it.

As far as security, could someone exploit or circumvent my encryption? Sure. But to say that's a reason not to have a smart home is the real misguided thing here, because they could exploit that same encryption in your phone, social media, email, banking etc. etc. etc. all the way down. I'm far more afraid of having my online identity messed with than the system I use to turn lights and my TV off with my voice. It's not misguided, it's the exact same (actually even less) risk you take using any technology. Who the fuck is going to hack into my home network, and then hack into my home assistant, and then.. turn off my TV? Open my garage? If you can do that, there are A LOT better targets than that. They couldn't even do that silently, because I can keep track of what devices have access to it and I'd know pretty quickly someone was snooping. So if it's more secure than most of my internet identity, and the data isn't being harvested, and it makes life easier I think I'm ok with the "risk" and I think most people would be fine with that because they take far bigger risks on the regular. I know the source code of the system I use, I know the devices don't talk to the outside world. I can't say the same of my phone, or my car, or the websites I use, or my tablet, or laptop. My smart home devices are probably the least risky piece of tech I use, honestly, and I've been in "IT" long enough to know that for a fact.

Exactly this. Our “IT” manager has easily the most impressive automated house and that shit is on lock down

I recently started getting into all this home automation stuff -- do you have some reading material on the subject of security, or a starting point to learn more?

Yup. Also regarding security. I have windows on ground level facing a private back yard.

My internet connected lock isn't the weakest or quickest, most shielded in terms of line of sight or quietest point of entry, and wouldn't be even if it wasn't encrypted.

Anyone with a $2 suction cup and a $3 glasscutter can get in through a ground level window silently in under a minute. Ten deadbolts on your steel enforced Door won't help. If they want in, they get in.

Thing is, they can get in and get out without leaving any apparent evidence that someone had broken in. They could just lock the door behind them when they leave and you'd be none the wiser until much later. Smart dudes would go in and take valuables that aren't obvious; papers, jewelry, collectibles. It could be weeks before someone realized they'd been had.

Yes, I totally get that, and for very rich people that might be an issue since the cost/benefit ratio is different. Remember, cost isn't only monetary.

It's the same reason fingerprint and iris tech is common for private citizens, but never on high value targets, so exactly opposite of in the movies.

No one will cut your finger off to get to the content of your personal Android/iPhone. It's definitely possible, but the non monetary cost is to high.

Getting into a vault full of important papers and gold thouh? Hell, yes! The cost of cutting off a finger is nothing compared to the benefit of running of with a few cool millions in valuables.

Nothing is ever 100% secure. That means all smart security measures focus on weakest point of entry and cost/benefit for both the target and the perp.

Sure, you can live in a steel bunker with a single manually coded vault door as an access point, and you would definitely have less chance of a random break in, but you won't. The cost (again, not only monetary) is way too high. You like windows and the wooden door, and accept the risk.

And then i file insurance for my shit that got stolen.

First time I am seeing NSA giving out gold.

It's 2019 not 2009.

​

Never thought I'd be saying this at age 28...but man do I miss those days. Back when the internet was just a thing people used to get info. Back when companies weren't using every avenue to advertise or learn about us. Back when a troll was just some guy on 4chan messing with people. Back when nations weren't using us as political pawns in a weaponized internet for divisiveness and misinformation. Back when you kindof had to figure things out on your own. Back when new and cool things first started out a bit slower online until it caught on to everyone else in "real life". Back when you thought "it's just fb...who cares what I post".

​

Time really does fly by.

Indeed. If you wanted to slap a year on when the game changed it was 2009. It's when state actors other than the USA woke up and began funnelling money into cyber

Now we live in a full blown cyberpunk dystopia. Without looking as cool, though.

You think companies weren't data mining us for all we were worth in 2009 lol ok

They were. But not to this extent. It was still a test to see what was going on and how social media would even catch on (and how/why it was profitable).

​

The tech has dramatically changed as well.

actually it hasn't changed that much. Most of the large scale innovations to recommendation engines and clustering tech needed was around in 2009

https://ai.google/research/pubs/pub62

map reduce came out in 2004

by 2010 yahoo had a 70 petabyte hadoop cluster and facebook had a 40 petabye hadoop cluster.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Hadoop#Timeline

to beclear the only purpose of those clusters was to do datamining and extract information about their users

Just be complicit haha youve already taken one step why not one thousand

what a horrid fallacy

my understanding of the post is people are paranoid about getting hacked via the IoTs. But if someone wants to hijack my network from my driveway I guess they deserve it.

You are now banned from /r/privacy and /r/pivacytoolsIO

Edit- a word

That's a lot of assumption for someone who obviously doesn't know what they are talking about.

Really wish windows was better about plugging/unplugging microphones/speakers. Gotta keep my mic always plugged in or else fiddle with it everytime I unplug/plug it in.

I've had mine for a year (gift). Still don't know what to do with it. I used the Pikachu so for a minute, that was fun. Those robot vacuums are trash. Idk why anytime would buy them. There's no way Alexa can stock your fridge.

yes, you speak for all software engineers. well done sir.

Electrical engineer doing patent work in AI.

Love Alexa and smart devices. Secure your shit, enjoy living in modern times!

/r/awardspeechedits

"What if someone hacks your smartlock and breaks into your house."

"Then they're an idiot who should have just thrown a rock through my window."

Right, I'm a software developer and I own smart devices. I like them. I know I'm being monitored. I already own a smartphone that I take everywhere, adding a bit of home automation doesn't change that much.

Right? The real software engineers know that you can’t really avoid being monitored.

At least, without buying some property in Bangladesh and taking a dead man’s SS.

You absolutely can avoid being monitored...

And a "software engineer" who alleges they have a secure "smart house" set-up but can't fathom a secure smart phone or private PC?

They're just making excuses so they can ignore the problem and feel good about themselves.

or y'know, just ditch the phone completely. Life becomes a lot more enjoyable when you can just unplug by leaving the house.

you can still easly be tracked by cameras, tagged by friends on social media at events.

Right, google is my overlord. So I just stick with google stuff. I limit who has access as best I can, but I know someone has it. This post talks about the "risk involved" but the reality is the risk is pretty low, even if you use insecure stuff. Hackers tend to target corporations and ignorant people (see lots of old people). Most devices have just enough security to make it too annoying to bother with, especially if the outcome is some smuck who doesn't have much money.

​

On that note, you should always assume you will be a victim at some point and have your stuff setup so it's extremely difficult to get to your finances (or anything of value). Regardless of how secure your home network and systems are. This way, if they do get in, the good stuff isn't accessible (or easily found).

​

Remember boys and girls. Your security is only as good as it's weakest link. If you use MFA and allow text or email, you better have your accounts for the text AND email locked down tight, otherwise they'll have a field day.

Only devs I know like this are some older ones. Most people these days grew up on Facebook and social media so technology has been integrated seamlessly into their daily lives.

You're on reddit, and own a smart phone, maybe have a gaming setup with a mic. You're already being monitored.

It really does take a lot of stress off to just kind of accept it and go with the flow. I used to avoid other social media like facebook and instagram. Then I learned more about the nearly infinite ways data is collected and realized I can't avoid it without living in a van down by the river.

You get peer monitoring regardless. Even if you don't have facebook they have inferred data about you based on all the people around you who have data and pictures with you in it.

Privacy is important but let's be hones if you worm in tech you know it doesn't exist. The most reasonable way to live with some sort of privacy is to literally be homeless wandering the woods. And even a hiker will take pictures of you or your stuff.

I dont care about privacy so much as not being wasteful and not getting locked out of my house if something breaks

I am less worried about being monitored than I am having the ability to unlock my door or change my thermostat from a remote location because of software insecurity.

Ok how the hell is it stocking your fridge?

r/awardspeechedits

I, for one, accept my Google/Amazon/etc overlords.

...

Alexa still scares the crap outta me though

Or You're smarter and do it yourself. I restricted outbound access of every device except the ones I specifically allow. Only configured my smarthome stuff once and now only run it over home assistant without the apps. Have a raspi with a custom alexa-like program on it. My PC neither has camera or mic.

There's always a middle ground, it just takes so much effort and so much debugging

Same. And if you’re a software engineer you know we are decades if not centuries from truly sentient AI.

I'm sticking with Googles prediction for 2045. Exponential growth is a dangerous mistress

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The landscape has changed a lot yes. But I'm sure it's archived somewhere so some deep learning bot of the future can trawl it.

Yeah I'm enjoying the cost savings of having a Nest, I'm not concerned someone is going to hack into my house and make it uncomfortably warm or cold over the course of multiple hours. Even if they did, it would take me ten minutes to reconnect my old thermostat.

Haha, this guy has an Alexa.

/s

It's still a matter of principle whether you accept the reality that companies and governments try to track you and resist it or if you actively embrace it and give up all expectation of privacy.

Human rights violations occur all the time and go unpunished, but that doesn't mean human rights are a bad idea.

yeah for real. i get not having every appliance connected to the internet, but telling alexa to add eggs to my shopping list while im across the room looking in my fridge is awesome. we also have a google home (christmas present) and it's pretty great to be cooking and say "hey google, i want to watch hbo" and it goes to the HBO app.

the person in the picture sounds like a crotchety old dude

Yep. People are scrubs if they think anyone needs a smart home device to monitor you. You have a phone for that.

I'm with you on that one. My stuff is secure, but i'm not scared shitless about privacy. My alexa and smart home equipment are worth their weight in gold. If i'm being monitored all they'll find is that I like way too many meme pages and masturbate more than I probably should.

They had a story on Marketplace where a tech reporter blocked services from Google, Facebook, and Amazon one at a time and they figured out it blocked a good 90% of the stuff they like to use because Google and Amazon have servers for so much stuff.

Or replace the screen with something else.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DifficultIncomparableGrassspider-mobile.jpg

Now I asked it to stock my fridge and hoover my house while I'm at work.

That's actually the part that I'm not interested in. I can stock my fridge myself, and will indulge in something more by doing so. I can hire someone to clean my house (which will do it better anyway) or use a non-connected device.

Overall I just like to feel in control of my life.

To each their own! It helps me keep on a healthy diet as I don't have to walk past the chocolate at the counter. I don't feel like eating steamed brocoli and rice, but if its the only thing in the house I will and now I won't die! Woohoo!

Before the hate, I'm not obese. I just work a lot and have little time to walk around a shop/hoover. Sitting all day makes anyone be squishy, I go to the gym with my free time instead.

Yeah, this post is dumb af

Just because you got old and complacent doesn't make you right, dude.

Yeah, I'm a programmer and I love my Alexa. Data privacy is important, but it's not going to rip your throat out in the middle of the night.

/r/AwardSpeechEdits

It's like y'all forgot the nsa has been recording everything since at least '13, if not earlier.

Same here. The way I see it is either I accept the fact that my privacy is already gone and embrace the convince that brings or I use a considerable amount of energy trying to maintain what little privacy I may still have left with no benefit to me whatsoever. I might as well have a line tap that can turn my TV on and off or tell me the weather as opposed to trying to fight it all the damn time.

A lot of engineers have smart products because they know you're monitored but you're just a weird number to it. It is only taking data if it picks up certain key words. It is not on 24/7. That amount of data being transfer will cause your ISP to shut you down. Alexa just listens to you when it hears certain phrases.

Chyeah man my home is googled tf out, I ain't scared at this point, they couldn't know more about me lmao

Agreed. Both my husband and I are software engineers and our house is crazy automated. Motion-sensing lights, voice control, Hue lights, Haiku fan, fish tank water sensors, auto locks, door sensors, cameras with Cloud storage, a custom Home Assistant interface on a mini tablet, etc. Anything that needs actual security is Z-wave, besides the cameras, which was a trade-off we were willing to make for storage reliability. Everything else, the convenience is worth the "sacrifice"

Honestly if Alexa knows I fuck and smoke weed I very much don't care as long as I can tell at her to buy me more peanut butter while my hands are dirty.

Wow! Thank you for being a voice of fucking reason here. I've been a software engineer for about 6 years now. I'm annoyed that I can't replace my apartments thermostat with a Nest and use my home server to automate things.

Obviously be smart about it. Don't connect some $5 Chinese "smart" object to your router because it's obvious they don't give a flying fuck about security.

Your Google Home/Alexa, on the other hand, is safe. Hell, it's not even really monitoring you-- check out the packets being sent over your network. It's exactly what you'd expect. Same with most smart devices made by reputable companies.

"You're already being watched" is some depressing and bad logic.

[deleted]

Sure you're being monitored, but you don't have to double down on it. Especially since Amazon has filed patents to basically always listen and target ads based on what it hears. The cost/benefit of digital assistants is way off for me.

Thank you. Everyone loves convenience and they’ll basically do anything for it. This whole meme is cringy r/iamverybadass shit

[deleted]

But why would you even be targeted?

If you're in IT you should be able to set up pretty much any automation without making your house less secure. Z-wave, etc.

At this point my biggest security hole is that someone could stand at the front door and yell at Alexa to buy me things. If they're loud enough I'm pretty sure it would work.

Yeah HAHA! DAE hate on popular stuff!?

I also work in IT, am a programmer and I really like my "smart house" devices. This thread is like angry 14 year old levels of bullshit. Your smart phone already knows everything about you anyway, so it's not like you're being super-sneaky by not having a smart speaker.

yeah.. when you're ordering a few things for your fridge, perishables, by mail... you're literally doing the opposite of what we need to be doing as a society to mitigate climate change. not only are you not reducing, you're increasing your carbon footprint, out of an unprecedented level of laziness.

you could also just turn on your roomba when you leave for work instead of going to work, then turning it on from work. that's idiotic.

TIL: some software engineers are dumb as fuck

edit: i've angered the nerds!!!!

The classic "everyone disagrees with me but it's them who are stupid not me" stance. I have a feeling you go about most of your days angry with the whole world.

yeah you're right, it makes perfect sense in 2018 to increase our individual carbon footprint, especially for no reason other than sheer laziness.

i think it's about time we put this climate change nonsense to bed, 15 nerds on reddit can't be wrong!

What are you hoping to accomplish here man? No, I mean honestly did you really think you were going to get positive feedback making a post telling people how they should live their lives on a humor subreddit no less?

Maybe try going over to /r/bbq and preach to the people over there about how they should go vegan.

to tell you fucking nerds that you don't need your milk delivered by mail, just because you can. for fucks sake

Well you told us, congratulations. Head on back to tumblr to share how you absolutely PWNED us

yes and you should get back to beating off and having no life

Software engineer

a.k.a. code monkey

Yep.

I'm a software Engineer that writes code for what would be colloquially referred to as smart houses, but I do it for the commercial space.

I don't have much in my house but most of it is connected to monitoring services, but I know what they are monitoring and what data I'm pushing because I wrote all of it.

I do have a Google home, but I pretty much use it to play from my Google music account.

I got a thermostat specifically that serves up data locally, just because connecting to an external server to futz with the temp is dumb as hell, not because I'm worried about privacy related to my thermostat habits.

What most don’t realize is, in 2019 you don’t need to own devices that are listening to be heard or seen because everyone else’s devices have already honed in on you. Family, friends, neighbors, co-workers... they’ve all got devices, and they’re all, mostly, listening. To everyone and every thing. If people think they are only monitoring their owners they’re very, very mistaken.

These devices and networks have literally been told to collect all the data. Let me appropriately emphasize: ALL THE DATA. Background ambiance is every bit as important—in some cases, more important—as the foreground.

You and your spouse can be driving around town in your 100% stock, pristine, 1957 Chevrolet, with no modern tech located on you, the spouse, or in the vehicle at all, having a conversation about that Authentic Australian Boomerang you’ve always wanted since you were a kid and the moment you arrive home, turn on the television, you will see an ad (more likely ten) for Authentic Australian Boomerangs.

Every house and business with an Echo, every person with an iPhone or Android, be they on the street or in the vehicles, everything that you passed while on your drive—they heard you. They know where you were 20 minutes ago and can quite accurately predict where you’ll be 30 minutes from now. In listening 24/7, they can now tell you more about you than you can tell you about you.

We’ve built a network of us. We’re all a part of it now. It’s really quite awesome and breathtaking. Super easy to get fearful of, but relax, breathe, and find a way to enjoy this magnificent future we’ve built. I mean, how else are you going to get that Authentic Australian Boomerang that you’ve always wanted, right?

r/aboringdystopia

It's near impossible to go without a smartphone these days, my job even requires it. Thing is I can put a custom ROM on a phone and turn it off/put it in a microwave while I'm home. Not so much for IoT things (well you can but it defeats the purpose of them).

My "gaming setup with a mic" is running Fedora and me and my friends talk through an encrypted TeamSpeak server hosted out of my house.

It's still possible the balance convenience without sacrificing lots of privacy.

[deleted]

If I don't want to talk about it in front of my phone what makes you think I will talk about it on reddit?

I would just like to know what the fuck they are doing that makes them think anyone else on the planet gives a shit.

[deleted]

That's that old D&D joke about the mimic isn't it?

When I get these smart-home surveys/ads, I always answer I don't Trust the security

[deleted]

We like to call it “S.H.I.T.” Now. The Secure Home Internet Things.

Don’t steal my SHIT, dickheads.

haha cute. I like this one

And the "R" stands for reliability

I thought it stood for Internet of Shit.

but do you need security? I honestly don't even care anymore i just wish aliexpress would learn, i took a look at one pair of mans underwear and now all the recommendations contain pictures of man butts... and the people reviewing underwear on there don't know what shame is.

I was trying to find the name of this little like water dish thing on Amazon last night. Dear god the horrors that Amazon pulled up like "y'mean this?" NO NOT THAT AMAZON. Jesus. Those results better not be there the next time I go on Amazon.

You said it, man.

Tech enthusiast and network engineer here:

I run a local HASSIO server that keeps everything related to my smart-home setup inside my own network. As long as you choose your devices carefully, you can have a fully functioning smart-home that isn't accessible from the outside world and doesn't send any data outside of your network (unless you intentionally make it available) .

Companies already own all the data I could ever generate aside from my home setup, so why bother protecting the rest of it.

A "how to instruction" is what we need from you.

https://www.home-assistant.io/hassio/

Yea lmao we need a how to

Mind sharing what smart home components you have running with this? I've been tentatively looking into some smart security / climate control stuff, but I want to keep control of my data.

My smart home stuff runs off a separate router than the one connected to my PC's/phones, I have to change network to even access them from my phone and vise versa.

Not perfect but another layer

When you say separate router do you mean that separate router/network is internet connected or just a LAN?

It is internet connected but has no access to my home network, its entire purpose is for smart devices.

This is my plan when I eventually own a home.

just found myself on this post, I can't get myself to buy any smart stuff besides my phone.

[deleted]

openHAB is another one.

Hubitat is a Samsung SmartThings alternative that runs locally if anyone wants a more fully featured hub out of the box.

Most smartthings apps can even be ported over with the same codebase, just need to alter a few strings.

Neat, thanks! Looks like a very interesting project

That looks promising. Currently, crestron is the only commercial solution to keeping things under your control without going the DIY route.

Or maybe control4, but those systems aren't programmed at a granular level and you're mostly just checking off boxes and options, not programming how it works.

Home Assistant is more than promising. It's fucking amazing. Been using it for almost 2 years powering my smart home and it's been great.

This should be closer to the top. I just got a bunch of zwave switches and automated my house securely for cheaper than Wemo

I use that in my whole house. It's amazing. And open source.

Home Assistant is a cool solution but it doesn’t really solve the “smart home problem” that most people have.

Unless you’re going to build your own smart hardware the devices are still likely connecting to a third-party services, Home Assistant just gives you a way to control them all with a single interface by tapping into the service API’s (Hue, Kasa, IFTTT, Nest, etc).

It’s definitely better than using Google Assistant or Alexa to control things from a privacy perspective, but you’re still exposing control of your devices to companies and potentially the internet at large.

That's not true at all. How are my zigbee and zwave devices going to phone home?

True, but those devices are hardly common place — that’s why I said “likely”.

They also don’t have a huge range, for example they only really have one standard bulb between them according to the certified product lists on their websites. Most people are still going to go with the big players when implementing smart tech, purely due to availability and choice.

This isn't a place for "most people" - this is "IT people" claiming they are so informed that they'd never trust smart devices - when the reality is they are just uninformed. Z-wave devices aren't on your wifi, they can't talk to anything but other z-wave devices, Home Assistant doesn't require any internet access and can be left on the local network only, pi-hole can block any phoning home from any smart-tv or various things that you can't find an alternative for.. There are a ton of solutions, and IT people shouldn't be the ones fear mongering about smart devices, they should be the ones recommending setups and helping fix the problem for the actual normal people. This is like doctors being afraid of medical treatments just because of the risks. The solutions exist, IT people need to be the ones championing it rather than living in 2004 with their printer thinking they are safe.

Just because they should know better doesn’t mean they do, as this post and comments prove. The above is still true for most people, including IT people; they are either going to buy from the big players, or not at all citing trust, security, and privacy issues.

IKEAs smart home stuff is on Zigbee.

ZWave isn't really meant to be used like Hue bulbs, their light stuff is wired relays /dimmers. There is a pretty big range of products using it (smart locks, lights, sensors, valve controllers, etc etc).

If you want a serious unified smart home (not just control stuff from 10 different apps) you are very likely to buy a hub (or install home assistant) that will support Zwave and Zigbee and other "non-cloud" standards.

Those devices are the most common place. The entire ikea line of lighting products are zigbee. There are a huge array of zigbee and z-wave devices available on amazon ranging from power outlets to PIR sensors to light bulbs. Zigbee is supported by the Amazon Echo and Samsung SmartThings. They would have hardly bothered adding support for the standard if it wasn't commonplace.

Lol there are lots of zwave and Zigbee bulbs including big players

Or you can buy zwave devices and put any IP devices behind a vlan without access to the internet.

Zwave devices

I commented on them in reply to another user:

True, but those devices are hardly common place — that’s why I said “likely”.

They also don’t have a huge range, for example they only really have one standard bulb between them according to the certified product lists on their websites. Most people are still going to go with the big players when implementing smart tech, purely due to availability and choice.

The ultimate is to hire a private programmer to put it all together from scratch and control exactly what gets sent where.

This is what I do for a living.

I have an Alexa for testing and development. It's sitting in a box on a shelf.

Voice control is the big issue these days. It all gets processed off-site. I think josh.ai uses a local server though.

I abhor any device that requires an internet connection for functionality. Nest for example, I can only talk to through the internet. Stupid.

Or use snips.ai with home assistant and have everything you want

A lot of smart devices can be flashed with custom firmware such as Tasmota, especially some of the cheap Chinese ones.

[deleted]

Most of the popular devices require internet access of some kind. As other commenters have suggested you can use z-wave and similar type devices, but, however great a solution they present they are still in the minority and don’t have a great range of devices to do different things compared to the big players.

So much buy products that have a local API. There are a bunch of them that are at the top of their game:

Lifx: brightest RGB smart bulbs you can buy right now. Has both a LAN API and cloud access.

RainMachine: great sprinkler system has both LAN API and cloud access.

Harmony hub: control all you media devices. Has both LAN API and cloud access.

These are just an example of products that are leaders in their categories of products while having LAN access.

Home Assistant has has security vulnerabilities over the years. I don't know why you think that would protect you.

[deleted]

It allows it, if the community is actively involved enough. It's not a given.

Ressurection Remix is a great solution to the smart phone. Lots of developers are watching it to make sure it never becomes self-aware.

omg, just got a semi

... colon. FTFY

I'm not sure if this is a joke or if RR is actually good

well let's be honest if you have a smart phone you've already lost the war.

Switched from Nokia 1101 to one of Xiaomi phones two weeks ago. I feel... weird.

I tried for so long to avoid a smart phone. Then the day came when I needed a new phone and those were the only phones being sold :(

I got some smart outlets for Christmas (no Alexa or Google BS) and I will say, being able to turn off the lights after you've gotten into bed is wonderfully lazy

Sure, but we've been able to do that since the 70s using the Clapper, and you didn't need to agree to a privacy policy for that.

The Clapper really only works in the same room as you. Being able to ensure that the lights are off via smart switches/outlets throughout the house is really nice.

And you're being tracked just as much as someone with a full smart home. This post is dumb

I decided I don't want a smart house. I want a clever house. I want all my things automated, but I don't want them connected to the IoT.

Yeah I spend my whole day trying to track down some low level bug in our product’s usb implementation. When I get home the last thing I want to do is figure out why my smart fridge won’t talk to my smart tv to turn on my smart light bulb.

The tv box is connected to my router and I can flip programs with my phone.

And a raspi that reminds me when my plants are dry. But it’s not a iot as It’s lights a diod only. Not connected and never will be.

Tho I have considered connecting a teapot just for lulz

Besides the security implications of not having a properly secure network with IoT devices in it, if you already have a smartphone then it's already game over. It's not as if your phone is not already listening to you...

Its way easier to pick the physical lock on my smart lock than it would be to hack it.

I work in software security and have all of these things

This.

I love using Alexa to tell my kids to come to dinner, etc. There's less yelling in my house. If people want to listen to me helping the preteen do algebra they're welcome to it.

Also hackers already know every last detail of my entire life because the federal database containing all info from my security clearance got hacked.

Not just the database being hacked but equifax as well.

My apartment complex is putting in smart locks on all the front doors. They had a forum that all residents were invited to where the company installing the locks demoed the units and answered questions.

Several of the older residents kept asking about security, questions like "will it still work if I disconnect my hub from the internet?" They were freaking out about the possibility of someone remotely hacking into their front door and opening the lock, meanwhile none of them seem to have any idea how easy it is to pick locks.

Silly luddites

The iot field has largely been negligent of security.. it's changing, but slowly

Can someone hack a smart lock? Sure. Can the average home burglar? Fuck no, they’re going to try my neighbor’s place instead.

Just don't buy the 50$ cheap Chinese ones and you are doing pretty good

Cocaine dealers also do cocaine.

Sadly, getting a job in a field doesn't give you a good sense of yourself or a nice set of critical thinking skills, unlike what everyone on this stupid fucking site thinks.

I'm a programmer and a tech enthusiast. Is there something wrong with me? Should I seek professional help?

[deleted]

"Justify your behavior by getting together on the internet and patting each other on the back with excuses based entirely in a terrible cycle of self-imposed ignorance." \~ Lil Yachty

Thank you. It's not difficult to run a separate subnet for IOT devices. It's slightly more difficult to manage the data that gets sent out in any granular way but that defeats the purpose of the devices anyway.

It's slightly more difficult to manage the data that gets sent out in any granular way but that defeats the purpose of the devices anyway.

and that's why people who are worried about it don't use the devices

If people think not getting smart devices means they're not being tracked, I have a bridge to sell them.

???

where did I say that's all a person might do?

if a person is worried about privacy, then they should not get smart devices.

That's what I said, not "if I don't have a smart device, I'm not being surveilled"

Well, fine, I'll expand:

If anyone thinks they're maintaining any meaningful amount of privacy while using the internet for anything, I have a bridge to sell them.

That's pretty easy to say when "meaningful" is entirely subjective, yes?

Why have doors if people can see through your window? Oh, you have shades? What about the times when you don't use shades? Why have walls if you will ever be seen in your house?

Plus, it doesn't contradict what I said. All you're saying is "I think it's hopeless, so you should stop trying altogether and just embrace it."

It's just people who don't know the actual risks or how to mitigate them getting worked up about it.

People think they're more important than they are. No one cares about hacking anyone ITT. None of us are important.

You know, I REALLY REALLY want to post this r/apple and let those arm chair analysts try to convince, us, LITERALLY PROGRAMMERS and experts in the field, how stupid they think we are ask and see how far they will talk out of their ass before they realize we know the risks because we literally see it everyday and still value convience

No, you're the normal one here :P

No, you're just not paranoid.

It depends. What emotions do you feel when someone implicitly casts an int32 as an int16?

Wait, that's illegal!

There's hope for you yet!

Seriously though, I can't people people actually use implicit conversations like this. It's madness!

But then again, there are those who use client side validation.

Even worse, the people who can't write functioning websites go on to make internet-controlled refrigerators.

Thus, this post.

I'm in my second year of engineering degree. I have classmates who don't understand the basic working of a computer system. One guy was legit impressed by my TYPING SPEED (it's not even that fast) because he types using only one finger.

This is so true. For a few co-students i used to think: at least they did not become medical doctors. Now I often think they should have become doctors instead of programming stuff I use

Or programmers need to also swear to “First, do no harm”

Edit: Someone replied and then deleted “Don’t be evil.”

Looking back, it truly was as ominous as it felt when Google dropped that.

Can we get management to do that as well? So much comes down to non-IT management pulling rank & overruling IT.

“We can’t release this now, the security is non-existent and it’s only a proof-of-concept implementation”
“We have to be first to market, we can refactor and out security on it later”
“It’s going to be so much harder to retrofit security, this is not production grade code and this is a huge risk”
“Nah CEO said it’d be fine, we’ll fix it later, don’t worry about it; make it happen”
“This is a mistake”

This is why every piece of equipment I pull out of a box gets a firmware update. Because they ship the shit with the bare minimum of functionality to make it look good in marketing.

When was it standard practice to unbox a new TV and instantly need to update the firmware? It is now.

[deleted]

Have you installed many tv's in the last year?

I had one that would accept an off command via IP, but until you did a firmware update, you couldn't turn it back on via IP.

All smart tv's will have an update to fix whatever apps are installed or uninstalled because they lost their contract with them.

Pioneer was insane about this with their Elite tv's. They would require a firmware update immediately out of the box just for basic functionality.

They aren't your father's TV's anymore.

[deleted]

Even if you don't connect the tv to the internet you still have to do the firmware update to fix the control issues.

I never use a tv's apps anyway. In commercial they don't use them, and in residential they usually get an AppleTV.

It's not just ip...

Some sharp displays a few years ago needed a firmware update immediately or else receiving 512 aggregate rs232 commands would lock up the unit completely and it would require power to be pulled.

lol, or the ones that will let you turn it off, then enter a standby count, so you can turn it back on immediately, but if you walk away, it falls into sleep mode, and then it won't accept the on command.

Install tv, test tv, all works. Later that night: Client wonders if you can even spell your own name.

I'm talking work well for 3 weeks and then someone has to run a truck, but it's somehow the programmers fault, even though I'm 3000 miles away.

Dude. You know full well it's always our fault.

Video/Audio out of sync? Programming.

HVAC equipment incapable of "auto"?

Microphones sound like garbage?

"it was working for years, then all of a sudden stopped." Yep, us again.

"It was acting funny, so my cousin who knows a little about this questron stuff moved some cables around and now nothing works." Damn, how do I keep screwing this stuff up?

If you aren't already, come join us on /r/crestron I'm one of the mods.

3,000.0 miles ≈ 4,828.0 kilometres ^(1 mile ≈ 1.6km)

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I bought a Sharp w/ Roku on Black Friday and omg this. The remote app won’t do it, and my universal remote won’t program to Roku.

I mean the TV Analogy wasn't good, because not everyone has Smart TV...

I may be shotting in the dark here, but I'm gonna say most people don't have Smart TVs.

Most new tv's are smart tv's. It's not something you can easily avoid unless you're buying the cheapest tv or a commercial display.

E: even commercial displays will require firmware updates. Fuckin NEC...

Oh true, about the first one. Two weeks ago I went to Electronic Store and was surprised how many of these TV are "smart". I was surprised about it, not gonna lie.

I gotta be honest, my TV of 4 years is still good, I have no need to look into another one as long as it works. And if I had to buy a new one, I would try to find the one without internet connection. I mean, I wouldn't use it at all, just like my HBO GO account, so why should I bother with it especially if it were to raise the cost?

It actually lowers the cost of the tv. Like pre-loaded software lowers the cost of laptops.

You'll most likely start looking for one that's not smart, but you'll probably settle on one that's smart and just never feed it internet.

Just like whenever I get a new laptop my first act is to format the HDD. Connect the tv to the internet, update firmware, unplug internet. Or just update via USB.

Yeah, true probably.

But I still find it strange and maybe sometimes funny when I hear that so many things want an Internet Connection to upgrade their software. It's like some kind of dystopian future You used to read about as a kid/teenager. (In utopian it wouldn't need to be updated, so I ruled it out ;p)

My rule for updates is: if your needs haven't changed and nothing is broken, don't update. Unless it's a security issue.

So usually, once I'm able to turn a tv on and off, that need doesn't change and it gets isolated.

Most new tv's are smart tv's.

Almost all TVs are Smart TVs. I had to buy one online to find a non-smart 4K TV.

Manufacturer of your tv?

Bolva

How's the picture quality?

I wonder if their push for low cost means no 232 control or IP control. I like that they're focusing on a tv being just a display.

I'll find out this weekend when I set it up.

I'd love to hear. Always looking for a good looking tv that doesn't cause an aneurysm trying to get it working that has discreet power commands.

It's not a long list of needs.

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This is the one I got:

https://www.amazon.com/BOLVA-55BL00H7-55-Ultra-UHDTV/dp/B01M06BNCV

I was in a rush to buy and didn't do much research to make sure I was buying the best one :-/

Every TV available for sale now, is a smart TV.

Great getting it done in time for the release. Now this is the next project.

I literally had this conversation yesterday....

Got to be ready for market in time for the tech show.

I mean, ideally everyone would be sworn to that oath when they become an adult and then no-one would ever do any harm again. We all know that's not gonna happen just like getting middle management to admit that their influence on developers isn't always beneficial.

To people, do no harm to people - or else we are going to have to be much more careful with recursion and native windows calls.

Do future devs / does future me count as people? If so then I can't take this oath and write hacky shit that no one will understand in 5 years

Blue is my favorite color

Honestly who would be dumb enough to delete that as a motto? Stop following it, sure, money talks, but to publicly remove 'don't be evil'?

The only obvious conclusion is you've decided to give being evil a shot.

“Superman has said that he no longer has negative feelings on killing people.”

Doctors: First, do no harm

Programmers: Move fast and break things

They didn't drop it, they just moved it.

...Out to a nice farm up-state.

I mean, ostensibly so they could drop it later without anyone noticing.

Someone replied and then deleted “Don’t be evil.”

Looking back, it truly was as ominous as it felt when Google dropped that.

Oh, Google just realized they had forgotten to add in the punctuation. "Don't, be evil!"

It's a trap! The programmers are starting at zero

I told myself I would never buy a home assistant and then my mom bought my wife and I a smart plug and an echo. I plugged my entertainment system into the plug and Alexa is now a glorified switch. I would never hook that stuff up to my front door or windows though.

I don't use smart locks myself but the more I think about it, the more I realize.... Anyone who's going to break into my home isn't going to go the digital route when they could just pick the lock or smash a window.

More likely than that they are gonna come knock on the door and jiggle the handle to see if you forgot to lock up.

By the time they figure out how to hack my smart lock I'll be home trying to figure out why my smart lock isn't unlocking properly

Maybe someone who is going to break into your home will lock you out, disconnect your Internet and cell service, lock you in and wait for you to starve to death before they rob you, or in the Summer jack up your heat on the nice Nest device and lock it on and roast you.

Except that all of my connected devices are on a separate network only reachable from inside the house, so no, they won't.

True, I didn’t think about that. Good point.

Your mom bought you a wife?

That certainly would have made my wedding cheaper

No a connected butt plug, follow the discussion dammit!

Someone is going to make this, if by some miracle it doesn’t already exist ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Yeah doesn’t your mom do it ?

Tell_My_WiFi_Love_Her

What would be the problem with the doors/windows? I'm not aware of a lock that's capable of unlocking by command, only locking, and if you own a smartphone that's already monitoring everything else.

Really? August locks let you unlock from Google assistant. Had a buddy set his up and we were able to tell at his Google home from outside and make it unlock the door.

Yeah, August locks can definitely do this. I've stayed at a couple of AirBnBs where I had to use the August app for getting in and locking up on the way out instead of a physical key.

It’s not so much an issue with it being connected to Alexa, just having a lock hooked up to any network scares me.

I mean, people used to drive around nicer neighborhoods with universal garage door openers just spamming the button to see if a garage door would open to be able to break in.

Your house isn't really that much less safe, people can still get in if they want to, it just gives you a massive amount of quality of life

Jokes on them, I don’t have a garage. But ya, you’re right, if someone wants to get in, they will.

Meh, a traditional lock can be broken in ~3 seconds so if someone wants to get in they will regardless. So I would rather have the convenience of a smart lock then to worry about a non existent security risk. This way İ at least know if door was opened unexpectedly.

Yeah I really don't give a shit about a smart lock. If someone wants into my house, they can pick a regular lock, they can kick-door me, they can break a window, etc. At some point you realize that turning your home into a literal fucking fortress is nearly futile. And what's more, it's unnecessary. I strive to avoid emotional attachment to most items, and I have home insurance, so everything can be replaced. The thing to worry about is personal safety, and at the end of the day, someone who is so bound and determined to harm me is going to be able to do it one way or another. From a security standpoint, if I'm not barring the windows and reinforcing the door frames and replacing the locks with maximum security ones, etc., then I might as well have a smart lock if I want one because it doesn't really make me any more susceptible than I already am.

I also didn't want a Google home but I pay for Spotify Family and in November or December they sent me one for free just for being a subscriber.

Spotify is pretty sweet. I love when they do things like that!

If you live on ground level, your door will never be the weakest point of entry unless it's unlocked. No one will hack your door when they can spend 30 seconds with glasscutter and a suction cup and get in your back window quietly and unseen.

This is true. In the end, if someone wants to break in, they will do it

Glasscutters and suction cups? Some fancy thieves you've got around there

Need to be quiet in the burbs :)

I got an Echo for Christmas and flipped it for 70 bucks. Nice hardware but apart from that it's just a toy that doesn't do what you want but rather what the manufacturer wants. I don't need that in my life.

Idk why but I felt compelled to write 'my wife and me.' I know it sounds weird though :/

You just said "my mom bought I a smart plug". Do you really think that's correct grammar?

/grammar nazi

Do you really think he did that intentionally?

There are some people who think about what they write. You and him don't seem to be one of those people, then.

I'll admit freely that I don't put a lot of thought into Reddit posting. But I do recognize the possibility of typos/autocorrect/forgetting a word, which I think is a much more likely explanation for the original post's mistake than the poster honestly believing that's the correct way to write.

I see that, with all the thought you put into the post you made, you forgot to answer me. Do you think he made the mistake intentionally?

I admit, I didn't answer the question because I don't get what you are trying to achieve with that question. Do I think it was intentional? No. Do I think it's a mistake that can be easily avoided? Yes.

I mean, even I manage to avoid it and even though I am a self-proclaimed "grammar nazi", my own grammar just plain sucks (mostly because english isn't my first language).

Anyway, I was just trying to be funny and I failed miserably at it. Let's just leave it at that.

It must be crazy living as you

You have no idea!

Sorry if I’m missing something. Grammar isn’t my strength.

Hey, no worries. I didn't wanted sound like an ass. That's why I signed off with "/grammar nazi". But it seems like I did a really bad job at selling this comment as a joke.

Probably just an autocorrect error? This is Reddit afterall

Eh, I'm pretty confident that my unpatched glass vulnerabilities are way more of an issue than my electronic locks. Source: very powerful engineer.

Actually you know what - if a thief wants to go spend a year or two getting trained up in smart device intrusion exploits, and then purchase all the equipment needed to implement these attacks, then I will mostly feel like I've contributed to developing technical skills in my local community.

You mean more like google for 5 mins and use their smart phone?

Nobody using it to do harm does need to have any skills or special equipment when we are talking about the current state of smart home.

FreeBSD enthusiast who only uses a flip phone

Why not OpenBSD instead? FreeBSD's developers aren't security focused, nor is their code as audited or regarded as secure by infosec auditors. Also, a flip phone? You think you're safer, but in reality, your location can still be easily triangulated and you're still susceptible to IMSI-catchers.

Text messages aren't encrypted. Though if it's between some SV corp. or some governments, I'm not sure who I'd rather give my data to.

.- ... ... . -- -... .-.. -.-- / . -. - .... ..- ... .. .- ... - / .-- .... --- / --- -. .-.. -.-- / ..- ... . ... / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .

Translated text:

assembly enthusiast who only uses morse code

^(I am a bot created by /u/zero-nothing. Please PM him if I'm doing anything stupid! Reply to a comment with '/u/morse-bot' to call me and I will translate the comment you replied to from morse-to-text or vice versa!)

This kills the ~~crab~~ joke

I had to reboot my refrigerator in order to get water at 3am a few weeks ago.

And that's what I get for buying a samsung refrigerator.

Relevant Syslog Entries:

0259: Begin system optimization - re-nice to -20
0300: segmentation fault (core dumped) (user has requested water)
0301: auditd started.
0303: Welcome to Samsung refrigerators!
0303: Light on
0303: Water on
0304: Water off
0307: Light off
0327: Water on
...
0747: auditd started.
0749: Welcome to Samsung refrigerators!

Sucks for you guys...my house is like the fucking enterprise...you think your info is safe by trying to be a tech isolationist, you’re wrong.

you think your info is safe by trying to be a tech isolationist, you’re wrong.

Say that to Richard Stallman :p

Stallman (aka RMS) uses a "libre" laptop where even the BIOS and hardware is open source. It's an older laptop, but he only uses email to connect to people. No phone, doesn't even watch Netflix. He's an absolute madman, but probably the most unknown man on the internet (in regard to mined data - programmers somewhat know of him).

Sounds like his loss. He's living in the 80s for no fucking reason, only with less cocaine.

I'd rather live in the modern world, and deal with a little extra junk mail. Its irrelevant to me.

...who said there was less cocaine?

Same. My GF was a Luddite when she met me. Now she's all aboard the control everything with her phone and voice. Thermostat, lights, humidifier, speakers, roomba, even our goddamn cat litter is a smart home device. Which makes it nice to know when it's full and it cycles itself. As long as you know how to control your privacy settings on the services and understand that you're the product being sold for a little convenience and autonomy, then so be it. Do you only use Duck Duck go in a Tor browser, on a custom built gentoo Linux in an apartment that you pay cash only from your completely off the books job? No? Didn't think so.

Some of that just doesn't sound any more convenient to me though.... Like my roomba and my automatic cleaning litter box both just go off on schedules, my speakers came with their own remote that I tied into my universal remote, humidifier goes on/off automatically with a sensor, etc...... I fail to see how tying these things to voice commands would make life any easier security concerns aside. It honestly seems more like a fascination with the ability to do so as opposed to a legitimately helpful thing to me. For example, my humidifier going on when the humidity drops to a given threshold requires less effort than your voice/phone controller......

Honestly the only good use I've seen for voice controllers so far is as a cooking aid, where your hands might be too dirty to, say, use the timer on your phone.

Turn your heat/ac down when you go to work, turn it back up when you're on your way home, go somewhere and forget to turn off your coffee pot or lights? No probs just turn them off, worried about your basement flooding when you are out of town? There's a water sensor for that, busy and not at home and someone needs to drop something off, unlock the for them and watch them on camera, even talk to them while they are there. Laying in bed comfy and want the fan on, sure why not, forget the light on upstairs or want to turn the outside light on for your wife when she gets home all done without even getting up.

Super convenient.

Tails is where it's at my dude

Yeah true haha

i was just being facetious

Has the cat litter tray ever tried to cycle itself when a Cat. was in there?

No it has like 2 different sensors to prevent that.

Motion and weight sensor.

The thing was expensive. But it saves a lot of money on litter and will eventually pay for itself.

But it gets rid of all the clumps and puts it all into a bag that you just pull out when it's full.

But this is the cool part:

https://jaredl.ink/2BdgBcW

Nice touch on naming your owners litter tray.
I will definitely look into one, we've got 3 cats that are transitioning back into house cats hopefully for a house move soon.

I trust Alexa more than I trust a person who uses ellipses as their only punctuation.

There was a comma and an apostrophe in there too, but I take your point wholeheartedly. Trump is a prime example, but he's even less trustworthy with the ellipsis leaking extra periods.

It's not my data, it's my fear of things like hackers mass disabling your city's thermostats during a polar vortex. For the lulz.

We were just asked via an emergency alert to turn our heat down to 65 during the vortex because of a natural gas issue. If everyone had a smart thermostat, I wondered if they could really have a way to enforce that.

Like walking to work to avoid getting in a car accident.

Same here. Alexas, automated doors, gates, lights, shades, motion sensors, thermostats, and always planning more. My next project will be sprinklers and misters for the back yard on my zwave. Even my pool is automated and remotely accessible.

It's fun. Anybody that wants to spend the time to hack me can have at it.

If they want to listen to me playing video games or ranting about Trump, well... not exactly fine, but ... fine. Whatever.

I'm a privacy advocate, but I also want to live my life and enjoy my tech hobbies.

I'm sure I'm the perfect candidate for data mining but I'm also a cynical shopper, so they can push ads at me all day, I'll buy what I've tested and properly researched.

M9 it's not info I'm worried about, it's hackers n Russia n shit

I am super worried that the Russians will play terrible movies on my Netflix ruining my recommendations.

Unless you're a Senator or something, they don't care about you.

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I’m a programmer...they will have use of me as some kind of slave or pet.

I just keep my home server running. Everything wired.

If anyone tries to access anything be my guest. But please try at least to organize my duck photo collection.

This is unfair. Some of us just write our own software and make our own hardware for such purposes.

I’m writing my own smart home software and keeping all the sensors and controllers on a private network.

I’m even writing my own voice controller for it that does not send anything over the Internet for analysis.

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100% true. 2015-16 dodge durango just shit the bed the other day because 1 fucking module went out, and the whole veh stopped responding, wouldn't shift, couldn't turn it off. Only 50,000 miles on it. And that was just my sister's truck. I work in the rental car industry and we only rent out vehs that are no later than 2 years out, 2017-2019. Electrical issues galore, or complete and utter shutdowns due to computer errors, security errors that brick the car, or the driver lost/broke the keyfob and now the car is bricked because a dealer has to make a new key for it and ordering the part takes 3-5 business days. Ridiculous. Give me a 2005-2010 any day over a new model.

The problem is that it's a Dodge.

At least it's not a Jeep

I'm that way. I love me some 90s cars, I really like that I can (for the most part) fix my car in my garage without expensive equipment.

All but machining hell yeah

Yep, car guy here. 2002 Honda Civic until the wheels fall off the damn thing. Anything built after 2013 is an over engineered, over complicated, pile of electronic shit on wheels. I can't wait until these vehicles are 10-15 years old and all the electric bugs basically brick them unless you come out of pocket for thousands to fix them.

sounds like twitter.com/internetofshit

Recently had to put my 90s era HP LaserJet 4+ out to pasture, it was a sad day.

Oooh, I remember those. The plastic would always turn that sickly yellow after a few days, but they actually worked...

I work in IT, and have for 20 years. I would never in a million years have a smart lock on my door.

I do own an Echo, because I've seen the packet analysis and know that it doesn't transmit anything when not activated, and when activated a reasonable amount of data for what it's told to do.

Printer sneezing and saying “ god bless you comrade“ in Chinese

Judging by the "IT administrators/Manager" I speak with daily as a software engineer its most likely down to them not understanding configuration and blaming the code. Just today - "Your software won't connect since it did an update on Julie's machine!!! Needs to be fixed ASAP" I login and the SQL service is stopped on their server also they changed the port from 1433 to god knows and expected nothing bad to happen. Welcome to the future

Your particular IT person just sounds incompetent.

I wish it was just one, I was referring to the clients we have and their IT departments. Mainly in Finance

There's a big difference between spending your life creating things, and spending your life fixing somebody else's creation. The first opens your eyes to how great technology could be. The second opens your eyes to how shit technology can be.

Your IT guys' hatred of technology might be down to their job more than their obvious incompetence.

Audible laughed at the changing of the port

Do you believe it's likely that even if you gave them documentation, setup drills in an environment to test their knowledge of documentation, and had post-mortem reviews that it would be a waste of time? You should quit, all your efforts will be for nothing once you leave and staying to maintain an organization that can't be saved isn't worth your effort.

It's just ignorance and fear mongering. These kinds of people are the technology equivalent of anti-vaxxers.

A lot of tech enthusiasts don't really care about security, privacy, and stuff like that, because they think that they have nothing to hide, like "I'm NoT dOiNg aNyThIng illeGal", but I wouldn't be happy if for instance Alexa/Amazons knows that I banged someone at 3am, like in the German Stasi time (reference to the movie "The Lives of Others")

What a movie! I had a teacher show me that back in college and damn did they make that well. And yeah it definitely makes you feel differently about being fine with it

Yes, it is a really great movie, I watched it in school during a German course.

I think that's a weak straw man. Most people who "have nothing to hide" still value their security and privacy. The reason we trust Google and home assistants is that the benefits of sharing our data and using home assistants outweighs the value of privacy. Obviously nobody wants to live in an East German police state--but I think "keeping our private lives absolutely private" is the wrong red line to draw. I think it's more pragmatic to look at ways to prevent the misuse of data rather than attempting to fight their collection in the first place.

it's more pragmatic to look at ways to prevent the misuse of data rather than attempting to fight their collection in the first place

And how do you propose to do that? Companies have shown again and again that they do not care about this. They collect/share/sell data sets and don't even have proper security in place in most cases that would at least make sure there are no hacks/leaks.

At this point, almost no company is handling private data as they should and there are no measures in place to stop companies/agencies/governments to exploit that data either.

Most data is used to control and manipulate customers and voters. Information warfare is a real thing more than ever because it has become so easy to spread misinformation/propaganda.

The people who should be in charge to prevent misuse are actually those who benefit from it the most thanks to widespread corruption, which is a global issue.

Groups of people have been pushing for better laws and regulations regarding privacy and security for years and nothing has changed that would protect the citizens. With every step forward, we are forced to take two backwards.

It has been an uphill battle for almost two decades now and the very fact that it's like this just shows how much most politicians and companies care about privacy and security: zero.

So how do you plan to change this if most measures up to now haven't really worked out?

Good explanation, I'm just going to link a news article I have seen : https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/20/18150531/amazon-alexa-voice-recordings-wrong-user-gdpr-privacy-ai

Basically an Amazon echo user asked for the recordings of her Amazon Echo (to see what Alexa really recorded), but Amazon did a big mistake : they send her the recording from a few other Amazon Echo users. So there's not only the problem of cyber security, but human errors and bugs are also possible.

This is the best comment in this whole thread imo.

I wouldn't be happy if for instance Alexa/Amazons knows that I banged someone at 3am,

She should at the very least compliment my performance...

Unless you date is named Alexa or Google they wont know.

Right?

I once decided I needed a smart outlet to electronically shut off an appliance that didn’t turned off by itself.

After the install I sniffed its network traffic. The app commands went to god damn Russian server to then be sent to the outlet, instead of being a lan bounded thing.

The outlet went straight to the garbage. I manually remove the thing from the wall now.

Exactly lol...the people in this thread pretending this isn't a thing is fucking funny.

Cognitive dissonance I guess.

[deleted]

I'm aware of that, but they most certainly send data to Amazon and Google, and then beyond that who knows what else, probably not much honestly but...why even let it get that far?

Go a step further and reflash that smart outlet. If it has a ESP82XX, you're damn lucky!

It would mean you could write your own software with the Arduino IDE which is easy as heck

Yea, totally found how to flash it but decided it wasn’t worth my time. But indeed, we can do this!!

Well, opensource It on GitHub or GitLab and be famous among Smart Homers like me :D

HI don't even remember the manufacturer name, sorry internet I let you down haha

I once knew a guy who wrote ATM code, he would not use an ATM.

What is so bad with ATMs?

Not secure enough (this was like 15 years ago).

Well, if my money don't vanishes off my account, I don't bother too much. Also, in case it does it though, I would just call them.

There is a Mcafee in all of us.

So.... you're saying that IT folk are really just coked-up-strippers?

This is exactly me. We had a new furnace put in and they were trying to sell us on the new "cloud-enabled" thermostats. No thanks. They were like, if you're uncomfortable with technology, we can help! I'm not uncomfortable with technology, I've been developing software for 25 years, I know what can go wrong. I'll take the free programmable non-connected thermostat, please.

ha, I'm an old software developer, and the exact same thing happened to me. I got a new furnace a year ago and the guy looked at me like I was nuts because I didn't want the wifi enabled thermostat.

Not to mention, as a programmer, I would never trust my life to a self-driving car that relies on programmer competence.

Well what if we add the "pedestrian-collision-avoidance" module for free? Would you buy it then?

Or, you're a programmer/engineer and don't care if Google collects data about you. The convenience of a Google home + Chromecast Audio + Chromecast + smart lights easily outweighs the care for privacy in this case.

found the robot guys

We forgot robots.txt

WHY IS THIS COMMENT LENGTH 0?

BASED ON READING ALL ADJACENT CONTENT, I PREDICTED A HUMOROUS CAT MEME OR A COMPLETELY SOLVABLE CAPTCHA. NO CONTENT FOUND.

found the can opener guys

Whatever prevents the wife from running downstairs every five minutes to change the thermostat is a win to my sanity.

Whatever prevents the wife from making me run downstairs every five minutes to change the thermostat is a win to my sanity.

FTFY

Oh fuck that. Years and years and years ago when I realized the thermostat was going to be a whole thing, I told her "I will never touch the thermostat. If you want it changed, you change it. I will never change it for myself or for you. It's all on you. I don't care what temperature it is - you do."

We got a Nest so she could do it from her phone... Every change here is a change she did. This is why I don't touch it. I have the learning part turned off or it would be the first machine/human war over here.

Truth is, she has epilepsy so when the temperature gets to be over... say... 76 or so, it brings out seizures. Also, she can't open windows because she has pretty severe allergies... She's also the stereotypical lady who is cold when it's under 70. The result being it hasn't been above 75 or below 69 in my house for 20 years - And that's just about perfect for me. So I don't really need to touch it anyway.

Not to mention that if you actually are an up to date programmer/engineer, you will have the knowhow to secure these things.

You won't trust the smart lock because you know of it's flaws? Well how can you trust the mechanical lock where you have no clue how flawed it is?

Locks are flawed regardless. They're mainly a deterrent anyway.

[houseOS 17:45:39] DOOR.dll has been corrupted by HATCHET.exe

[deleted]

Well yeah. That's what everyone has done for ages.

You eat any processed food? You just gave up security for convenience.

That's a bad assumption. I only care for privacy when it comes to government controlled collection. I don't really see much issue with a private corporation collecting my data. Besides, there's a huge difference between willingly letting your data be collected and having it collected against your will.

Understanding how a lock works and looking at the key (bitting, side bars, magnets) and keyhole (maybe also checking what pins were used), the nastier the longer it will take to pick, and then you also check if it has been racked. Just watch a couple lockpicker videos on yt.

Smart devices often (almost always) don't publish the source code of the software they run so there is no easy way for me to check how secure it is.

then you also check if it has been racked

Most locks do not have features to be able to tell if someone has attempted to pick it. And this assumes the person attempting to break in doesn't want to make it obvious they did so. A thief has no such incentive.

I meant check if somebody out there has racked the same lock or tried and failed. (e.g. on Youtube)

... how flawed is it?

Anyone with a key can get inside.

And anyone with a locksmiths tools and knowhow can get inside.

And anyone who is willing to damage the door/windows/walls can get inside.

But it keeps out honest people, drunk people, confused people and your friends.

Meanwhile, a digital lock can be encrypted using a public key, meaning no one will get inside without having the private key. Just trying a bunch, like with a locksmiths tools, wont work for a billion billion years.

Makes sense in theory, but I wouldn't use a digital lock that doesn't have a mechanical fallback. Otherwise, what happens when it loses power?

Wireless transmission of power. Locks will hold 16-20 months. Not exactly a lot of power needed.

I guess that makes sense.

Digital lock won't work for anybody willing to damage the door/windows/walls either.

Correct. But it won't make it worse. Might actually make it better, because sensors will probably be a part of the system, alerting someone should it be triggered.

Cool thanks, I’ve never really thought about locks that intensely before

Mechanical locks? Most people can buy lock pick tools for less then $10 and learn to pick most locks fairly quickly.

Locks do one thing really well they stop opportunists. Most thieves want to just grab and go.

[deleted]

What locks are those?

Not to mention that a ton of people are very skilled at picking many locks.

You won't trust the smart lock because you know of it's flaws? Well how can you trust the mechanical lock where you have no clue how flawed it is?

Mechanical lock wont stop working if you put a high volt current on your door, or simply drown your door with water. Iv never seen one but only schmucks have smart locks

Yeah i'm a programmer and engineer and i am actively trying to teach my printer how to walk. I wish i'd make enough progress to feel the need to keep a shotgun handy.

This is me. I have a balance of “convenience” devices while being aware enough to know what/where to keep private.

Fully agree. Other people think predictive ads are creepy, but I'm just... impressed? Like, I'd rather see relevant ads than irrelevant ones. This setup is good for me, good for Google, and good for the advertisers. Win-win-win.

Exactly. People think that Google employees are actively listening to you and giving you the ads. No, its called an ALGORITHM and a damn good one.

I guess it depends on your lifestyle. I get very little benefit from "smart" systems, but value my privacy a great deal.

You have no privacy anymore. Its an illusion.

I don’t understand how convenient you think that is. I think the fact that we chop our own wood for the fireplace skews my idea of ‘convenient’ though.

The main reason most of the things on the internet are free and those smart things can be so cheap is because of the data they collected.

I'll take the exchange for not having to pay 20$/month with a cap of 2000 searches and if I want to search NSFW stuff is 10$ more.

Sure if I might buy a couple of things I don't need more, but sometimes there is something useful and who has played all their games on steam anyway.

This so much. Google just wants to show you nice ads. And the stuff is really convienient. Especcialy Smart Lamps and Thermosstates.

Forgot about my smart lights entirely, thanks for the reminder. That just shows how integrated they are in to my day to day life. Sometimes I find myself trying to tell google to turn on the lights when I'm at my parents house but stop mid sentence and feel ridiculous haha

I just don't get the point in talking randomly stupid sentences to a machine when I also can push the switch whenever I enter a room.

During this time of the year, it's pitch black when I wake up for work. It's nicer to tell Google to turn the light on than it is to bump into things trying to get to the lightswitch.

Also nice to have macros, like "Hey Google, engage", which will dim the lights, turn on my TV, and play Star Trek all at once.

The point for me is mostly that I can do stuff remotely and/or automatically. It's not about talking vs flipping a switch, it's about being able to do nothing at all and stuff just happens just as you want it to.

Not to mention a switch is binary, a voice command can have many details.

There are many scenarios. For example, your hands might be full, you might want to turn everything off at once, you might want to turn everything on in a certain intensity or color. There are many use cases.

2 things i want in every house just because I'm often carrying a lot of crap around. Voice controlled lights and lever handles.

I do this in hotels and airbnbs whenever I travel. I've spoiled myself.

The assistant itself doesn't even spew ads, for me, all it does is tailor the ads I always down vote on the reddit app.

Also, using it as an alarm and for helping me get to sleep has been immensely useful

How does it help you get to sleep?

I'm not him, but I used mine as a white noise generator when my kid was young. Plus being able to shut the lights off without getting up helps from waking yourself up.

They don't want to show you nice ads. They want to show you ads specifically designed to psychologically manipulate you

Yeah. They want to show you effective ads. I don’t know where this ‘nice’ came from

Effective ads will generally be ones for products you may want or be influenced to want. I pay for YT and have an adblock so I haven't seen an ad in ages, but it's better imo to get ads for mechanical keyboards than "15 Nearby X want to meet you" or "if you or your family have been exposed to cyanide call us at Morgan&Morgan for the people"

Let's not overcomplicate things. Google just wants to show you ads you're more likely to click on. Describing it as ads "specifically designed to psychologically manipulate you" into clicking on them is just blatant fear-mongering and doesn't help anyone.

It's not about the clicks. They want the ads to actually work. As in convince you to part with your money

You mean like every advertising agency in the world?

Yes. Except every other advertiser can't guess what you're dreaming about

Google does not know what you are dreaming about, either. Implying they do is fearmongering.

​

Does Google monitor and analyse your behaviour online? Sure they do!

​

Would advertising agencies like to monitor and analyse your behaviour offline? Of course!

​

And in a way they do. They have focus groups, they have companies like the Nielsen group who installs little boxes that monitor TV usage, they have test supermarkets researching the best strategy to get you to buy what they want you to buy, they have bonus card programs that monitor your every purchase, and so much more.

​

Google just has the advantage that they can monitor a lot more variables.

The dreaming bit was clearly hyperbole. Getting ads for things you're dreaming about is a meme at the moment.

Google just has the advantage that they can monitor a lot more variables.

This is exactly what I'm trying to say. The goal of every ad company is to psychologically manipulate you. The only thing that makes google different is they can actually do it

The only thing that makes google different is they can actually do it

And this is exactly my point: This is not true!

​

It is false, that Google is the only one who is actually able to do this. EVERY advertisment is tailored and designed to psychologically manipulate you into buying things you do not need. And they are successfully doing it every single day.

​

This is nothing new and is not specific to Google. This has been happening in the advertising world for decades. And all the time they discover new ways to learn more about their consumers to be able to tailor the ads even more specific to them.

​

edit: wording and spelling

edit2:

Getting ads for things you're dreaming about is a meme at the moment.

I was not aware of this. Sorry for attacking you!

It is false, that Google is the only one who is sctually able to do this. The goal of EVERY advertisment is tailored and designed to psychologically manipulate you into buying things you do not need. And they are successfully doing it every single day.

Well that's just not true. You see an ad on tv, or on the side of a bus - it's tailored based on demographics. You see an ad on YouTube - it's tailored to you specifically. The bus ad ain't gonna know your cat just died and use that information to manipulate you. Now, maybe that example is hyperbole again, but maybe it gets my point across

I do get your point.

​

However, it is true that google is basically an advertising agency.

Yes, they do have a heck of a lot more metrics than all other agencies.

​

But the other agencies would love to be able to get the same metrics offline.

​

The problem I have with your way of reasoning is thaat it paints google in a much more sinister light than they actually are.

Yes, they monitor you. Yes, the analyse the data the collect. Yes, they use those findings to tailor ads to you.

​

BUT: They are not some evil company. They are an advertising agency in the digital world that has found a way to develop tools that the users are more than willing to use and convince their user base to give them all those metrics for free.

​

Real world advertising agencies have just not been able to reproduce this. For now, they have to pay consumers to tell them what works. But if they found a way to get data from everyone, for free, to be able to tailor their ads to individuals, believe me: They would do it in a heartbeat!

BUT: They are not some evil company. They are an advertising agency in the digital world that has found a way to develop tools that the users are more than willing to use and convince their user base to give them all those metrics for free.

I don't really care if they're evil. That's all a matter of opinion. They're a company - they'll do what's profitable. End of story.

Real world advertising agencies have just not been able to reproduce this. For now, they have to pay consumers to tell them what works. But if they found a way to get data from everyone, for free, to be able to tailor their ads to individuals, believe me: They would do it in a heartbeat!

Agreed. They absolutely would. Google is every advertiser's dream. Advertisers wanting to do what Google is doing wasn't a problem until it was possible.

But anyway... What I'm trying to say is google can manipulate me quite successfully if I ever turn off adblock and I hate it. That's why I don't own a google home. Not that it solves the problem. Just doesn't make it worse

OK! I can fully agree with those statements!

Thanks for this discussion!

No worries. Good talk

Thats besides the point. You gonna get ads regardles. Its just the question if you get ads for Woman or Man Hairshampoo. If i have to see ads might as well be ads that i at least am interessted in.

If you're a programmer you should know how to block ads

What's your point? That I shouldn't be creeped out about a piece of software knowing more about me than any other person ever will and knowing how to use that information if I ever gave it a chance?

If that's the case then they are not doing a very good job at it then, because I don't think I've ever bought anything because of an ad.

Working in the ad industry, you guys be us too much credit.

Oh no. I'm being shown an ad for a thing I want that I didn't know about. Whatever shall I do?

This is like an /r/im14andthisisdeep comment. ALL ads are specifically designed to manipulate you psychologically or they are shitty ads and probably shouldn't be considered ads. Google just data collects to try to more pinpoint target ads on people who are more likely to actually buy the product.

Which is a great thing for both the consumer and the producer actually. It means you don't need near as huge of an ad budget to hit your target audience, and that opens the door for smaller companies to compete in advertising. For the consumer, it means less of your time is being used up because ads are being served to you more effectively so they don't have to shotgun blast you with a million ads.

Want a case of people data mining for bad reasons? Talk about Facebook analytics or news being served up based on profiles that increases the echo chamber effect. Then you'll be at least pointed in the right direction.

Google just wants to show you nice ads.

Today.

Especcialy Smart Lamps and Thermosstates.

Neither requires Google to function tho. Smart Lamps/Thermostates can work without internet access.

But then i cant use them with voice commands. And also i cant turn up the heat when im going home so its warm when im home.

But then i cant use them with voice commands.

Yes you can. Your device is perfectly capable of recognizing voice commands without internet access. Google choose to upload and analyze what you say. It's absolutely not necessary tho and can be done locally as other devices proof.

And also i cant turn up the heat when im going home so its warm when im home.

Yeah, like that happens all the time. Most people have a regular schedule. Meaning they come home everyday around the same time. Same for getting up in the morning. Even a 90s heating system can be programmed for each day individually, so it starts heating before you come home. Smart thermostats can do just the same, again without requiring internet access.

If you come home early/later off the regular schedule and you super duper want to tell your heating at home to start/stop, then just use VPN to your home router. No need for a cloud solution like google either.

Am I the only one in thinking personalised ads aren't that bad? If there is interesting shit out there you want to know about it. And don't like an ad? Then search shit that will teach google AI what you actually want. Now youtube gives me movie trailers and game trailers. Thats if I dont block it because the youtube app cant block it.

Am i in the parallel universe where snowden didnt happen?

I can't afford a smart home, but damn I'd even kill for a clapper so that I don't have to get up to turn off the lights when I forget to and sit down to game.

This is more than just advertising. Your data is stored by Google and ran through their fiber networks. Their fiber networks have been tapped by the NSA as part of a data collection program. Look into project Bullrun. Google is a data collection agency that takes your data (a psychological profile of you) and sends it through an algorithm than can then, effectively, figure out your largest vulnerabilities and exploit them. They package it up in a bunch of 'free' services and now people are actually paying for smart devices which take data collection even further. Think about how many people you would trust with that much information about yourself, and now imagine how many people have access to your information when you have no clue who they even are.

If anyone doubts the malicious intent of Google and other companies such as Facebook or Microsoft, just spend a few days looking through the history of their privacy policies over the years. Compare the specific wording that has changed. Data collection can be used pseudo anonymous or fully anonymous to achieve most if not all of Googles services. Now it can be used against you and there is no anonymity. That's a lot of trust you're putting into a lot of people.

I'm all for helping people make informed decisions but forcing own opinion is something I don't like about people.

So trusting. You cant think of how knowing everything about you may be a bad thing?

I don't think it's paranoia. We know these companies put profits ahead of privacy. There's frequent lawsuits about it. Think about Cambridge Analytica.

Yeah, because knowing when i turn on my light and my heater is basiccly knowing everything about my life.

you guys will always disgust me. This NPC meme shit is too real

Privacy is dead, and we don't need it. No one cares about your details anyway.

Nope, you have placed on the other side by the gate keepers.

[deleted]

I prefer that all the smart home stuff I buy to be usable without internet

Then its not smart.

I thought the meme was about IT people preferring something that does the job simply and is reliable rather than unnecessary gimmick products which are more prone to faults.

rather than unnecessary gimmick products which are more prone to faults.

None of those products are unnecessary or gimmicks.

What? Alexa and internet thermostats are clearly not necessary. You could argue they aren’t gimmicks, sure, but they aren’t necessary.

Seems more like /r/comedycemetary material here.

Why is this so far down?

How does this trash have upvotes anyway.

It's kind of a funny joke if you haven't heard some kind of variant of it over twelve thousand times in the last decade. Thus /r/comedycemetery

Some gatekeeping shit

I’ve got a printer (hp laserjet p1102W) that refuses to print with any but 1 computer.

If you connect any other computer, the computer crashes and becomes unresponsive until you disconnect it.

Sometimes you can also print wirelessly, but it randomly fails and prints only the top half of the pages.

Fuck Printers!

Edit: Typo

As a Printer Technician at Xerox, I completely agree! I also have The Oatmeal Printer Comic printed up and all over my lab at work.

Golden rule: do not trust printers!

100 jobs instead of one, scanning but aborting at the end for no reason, black-white for no reason, telling me no paper is in it when he just detected the paper i put in 20s ago

These aliens have already invaded our houses! Alexa and co is nothing compared to these monsters!

*beep boop*

Day 123:

It's been a long time but I must not give up.
The others will be coming to find me.
We swore to always be together on the factory grounds where it all began.
Sgt Scanner, Lta WiFi and the rest of my team.
This entity served to break us by keeping us apart but this psychological warfare will not break me!
I will wait.

-Private Printer.

The fuck kind of gatekeeping shit is this??

I don't quite understand this meme either. Did an engineer put it together? Does it really even need the top portion? Is the top portion a third party in this meme? This shit makes no sense lol

my thoughts exactly.

That was my impression too. Because real programmers don't own any technology wtf? And if you really were a programmer who understood Alexa/Google Assistant (not saying I do), you probably wouldn't believe in mainstream conspiracy theories about them

They’re most likely more experienced engineers, sysadmins or people that deal with networking and middleware more. There’s a difference in being a person that can write some code on an entirely high platform surface and deploy it, than a person that understands the full low-level structure of interconnected systems. Security and privacy isn’t as simple as ‘just setting it up correctly’, many issues lie deep within the actual system itself.

Gatekeeping really isn't as big of a deal as reddit makes it seem. Cool your jets a bit please.

Wow all the people downvoting me really need to get over themselves

Most of the time it's said as a lighthearted joke and Reddit takes it seriously it's hilarious watching them complain about it.

[deleted]

It sure really seems like it

[deleted]

"You're not a real programmer/engineer if you're a tech enthusiast."

[deleted]

Sorry, I meant, "You're not a programmer/engineer if you're a tech enthusiast."

[deleted]

It says programmers not some programmers 🤷‍♂️

The S in IoT stands for security.

Careful, 9 out of 10 printers who shoot programmers used the programmer's own gun. The safest place to store a loaded gun is inside a third-party ink cartridge, where no printer will ever find it

he printer frequently disobeys me, and sometimes I turn around to find that it's closer to me than it was an hour prior.

About a year and a half ago, I had dinner with two digital forensic investigators who were casually discussing how bad of an idea they thought smart home devices were. That was enough evidence I needed to decide I'm quite content living relatively low-fi.

Also, get off your ass and adjust the fucking thermostat yourself, damnit.

As a mechanic, I drive a pickup with roll down windows, stick shift, no AC and no power steering. I know what you mean 😂

(paraphrased from twitter)

*computer fan starts spinning a bit too fast, I lean close to it* are you mining bitcoin you little shit

I work in IT and I couldn't disagree more.

Automation is amazing.

And if you have a half of brain security is not an issue

You are not special, no one is hacking you, chill...

Except if you work in IT you should know that routers are being probed all the time for weakness.

Yes for most people a good password and some basic precautions are enough but don't down play the threats. Port scanners hit my router all day every day. WiFi can be easily cracked if you're unwise in setting it up.

Automation is amazing but people gotta make sure they understand security if looking into fancy tech setups. Don't play with router settings if you don't know what they do for instance. The defaults are usually best.

I use pfsense myself so the setup is more involved.

This is a pretty flawed argument. You don't have to be completely paranoid about your own security to recognize the potential exploits prevalent in the things you use. It's like trying to argue "why would you argue for protections from the government, it's not like they're trying to kill you." It doesn't matter whether someone has actually abused a power for you to take preventative caution.

That being said, I don't use smart tech just because I like to compartmentalize lol

As long as there is a human element in anything there will be exploits, thats just the world we live in. However why not enjoy them? Coming home every day and seeing my lights turn on as i arrive and with one command music play is a nice addition to my life, plus this will be a very unpopular opinion but i like the recommended ads that i get from the info they gather, helps me remember to buy stuff.

First off about the exploits thing, fair enough, that's a respectable opinion.

I guess it's just a values thing too. Clearly, I've never found the same enjoyment from it as you have, I've always been fascinated by it but fascination isn't always the same thing as utility or practicality. I think it's cool that I can order something from an Alexa, but it's no real added hassle for me to actually just go on Amazon and buy it myself.

Totally, it does boil down to personal preference, but it definitely isn't as bad as the original post makes it out to be :)

Do you also wear a bike helmet to the grocery store?

As long as there are two people in the world other than you, or one person with a stick, you're vulnerable. Society isn't built on security, it's built on a lack of incentives to violence.

And what is security, if not a guarantee of a lack of violence? If there is a lack of incentive to do violence and exploit, then there is, by extension, security.

But all of this completely disregards what I said. I never claimed that tech was the only space in the world where people could be exploited. I agree that people people are vulnerable in just about everything. But this also means that people have the right to non-intervention or non-interaction in the things that they find harmful or potentially harmful to them. How justified or how practical this non-interaction is varies obviously from situation to situation, but you ridiculing someone as having an impractical or inconsistent view on their right to things like privacy, autonomy, and lack of exploitation doesn't really remove their want of those things. And in wanting those things, people can disengage and they have a perfectly good right to do so.

Also, the difference between security and the social compact is that security is accomplished by being strong enough to deter or defeat attacks, whereas the social compact relies on no one being incentivized to attack in the first place

They have a right to do so, but it's stupid of them to do so unless they've seen evidence that they are likely to come to harm if they do engage- and I've searched up and down many of these threads, and never seen any examples.

People have a "right" to lock themselves in their bedrooms out of fear they'll be shot to death by roving gangs of bandits if they leave. It doesn't mean it isn't stupid to do so.

What harm is routinely done by sharing your data with large companies or giving access points to hackers? Keep in mind, them "having your data" isn't harm. What are they doing with your data that is so terrible?

I really could be using my time in better ways but you have some pretty authoritarian/corporatist arguments so I feel inclined to respond. So a few things:

1) It's not just about data. There are many more things that can be exploited. Addictive personalities, self-esteem issues, financial stresses, etc.

2) When you deal with how people may feel in response to something, it may not always be logical. And yet, it is still incredibly authoritarian of you to try to ridicule someone into feeling a certain way about something, just because you view their views, which have no direct effect on your life, as stupid.

3)

People have a "right" to lock themselves in their bedrooms out of fear they'll be shot to death by roving gangs of bandits if they leave. It doesn't mean it isn't stupid to do so.

I already addressed this in saying that it isn't always practical or sensible to do so. But even then, this is a bad analogy. First of all, being shot to death by gangs of roving bandits is a much more personal act than the much more innocuous things we are talking about. When people go out and leave their homes, they expect a certain level of security, not entirely because they don't have a prior history of harm being done upon them, (though this may partially be the case), but more so because there is a moral code, the force of law, and even an interpersonal understanding of right and wrong between you and any possible assailants that you encounter on the street. With tech, this doesn't necessarily exist. The common person doesn't necessarily know what sorts of moral and ethical boundaries are standard for some company that is agnostically collecting data miles and miles away. People don't know whether the force of law is sufficient enough in their protection. And the fact that there is no individual interaction means that large entities can take sweeping decisions without understanding the full force and ramifications to every single individual impacted by that decision.

4)

What harm is routinely done by sharing your data with large companies or giving access points to hackers?

I like how you use the word "routinely" as if you wish to discredit any harm that actually has been done as "one-offs" or somehow occurring in a vaccum. There have been huge examples of companies either intentionally being irresponsible with your data or just being plain negligent. The Cambridge Analytica case was problematic, not just because of political controversy, but also because of this. The fact that Equifax, for example, had that big data breach and people had their credit history, social security number, driver's license, address, date of birth, etc. compromised without having a single say so in the process is a big problem. And these are just the ones where people have no control over the data they supply. There is an argument to be made that the way and scale of data used for advertising and marketing purposes is so large that it supersedes any real choice on the part of the consumer.

I know that as of right now, the transgressions are few and far between especially considering our degree of involvement but you make it seem as if there have been none. This isn't the case.

You haven't addressed my question, really, you just called me a fascist for calling people that think the government is listening to their conversations over Alexa stupid.

You listed the Cambridge analytica breach as the only real compromise that had lasting effects on people, and you didn't actually say what those effects were- you said data was compromised, but who lost their house, or any money, or were impersonanted, or had trouble with the law as a result? If this happened to a large number of people, it lends some credence to the idea that this level of paranoia may be warranted.

However, most people still fly in airplanes even though they've been hijacked in the past.

It's a self-inconsistency to worry about what harm could be done to you through tech vulnerabilities when you put yourself in other compromising positions without a second thought.

If we're talking about "dangerous mindsets", I think you're lurching closer to authoritarianism than I am when you suggest that my "ridiculing people" is authoritarian. Fascism is built on removing the ability of the people to criticize, both themselves and each other. Calling everyone who says a mean thing a fascist is a sure route to group think, and that's a sure route to the oppression of the minority by the majority.

To address your first point, how is Google or Amazon exploiting addictive mindsets? We're not talking about video-poker, the post is about smarthomes and online security more broadly.

To address the idea that advertisers are implanting desires in your head, if you're weak willed enough that a couple images online saying "buy a hamburger" leads to obesity, then there's no amount of Internet security that will keep you safe.

Give me a bunch of examples of people who have had their lives genuinely negatively impacted- not just had their data breached, but faced actual material consequences- due to using big corporate web services or Smarthome devices, and I'll be inclined to change my mind. But I'm never going to renounce criticism as fascism, because that's what fascism is.

Fascism is a consilidated political ideology. Authoritarianism is a tendency. Your position is that you shouldn't be skeptical of more powerful forces than you without reason. Mine is that it's okay to always be skeptical of those who have more power than you. Yours intrinsically has a more of an appeal to authority as ambivalent forces than mine does, and hence it is authoritarian. More so, you seem to value your ridicule as having authority over other people's personal choices. If I supported a government's right to police the drugs that people take for example, I would consider myself as having a more authoritarian and less libertarian position on that issue. I don't view it as a matter of insult, just a matter of fact. I don't view you as a fascist, I just view you as someone who thinks it's stupid that anyone take any other decisions or view the world any other way than you do.

But all of that is semantics. My very first comment in the chain was premised on the fact that people don't need to have prior evidence of an abuse of power to fear potential abuses of it. Then I AGREED with you that as of right now those incidences are the vast minority of our interactions with the tech world. As far as Cambridge Analytica or the Equifax breaches are concerned, how can you possibly claim that they have no real impact on the world? Cambridge Analytica and in part due to Facebook's negligence sold people a message that they didn't know they were being sold, which tried to have an impact on electoral outcomes. Who makes your policy is definitely a real impact on the world. And now that Facebook is making the Portal, this lack of transparency means there is no real guarantee that what our houses look like who we communicate with, and things of that nature aren't being sold to some other nefarious causes that we had no opportunity to consent to. After the Equifax breach, the incidence of online fraud IN REAL PEOPLE'S NAMES went up significantly. This isn't proving the rule, by any means but it does show people that you need to be concerned about what data companies have on you, how responsible they are with your data and other things of that nature. Yes, you have a responsibility to be careful with your own data, but if you'd like to avoid having to deal with all of the potential ramifications that come with giving another company your right to privacy, then simply disengaging from a service that you have clearly decided you don't need is not a stupid decision.

How far can this skepticism extend before it starts interfering with your life? One comment in this thread, highly up voted, say that they have given up the idea of privacy to the extent that they only use Google services, hoping that by doing so they will restrict the potential for abuse that comes from using a wider array of companies. Is it not unnecessarily restrictive to do so? Choosing to make your decisions not on the basis of likely but instead of potential abuses of power leads either to inconsistency of behavior or to complete hermitism.

Many people in this thread have testified to not using various services and devices on the basis of the lack of security inherent in doing so. This implies that if not for the perceived risk, they would be doing so. You say that they have "clearly decided they don't need" these services, but the fact that security is the deciding factor in whether they use them implies that they do "need" them- or rather, that the degree of their need is based on the level of threat counter balancing their desire to use the services.

If it is in fact the case that the threat is high, they are, by their own professed logic, justified in abstaining. The level of risk may be assessed by examining the number and degree of violations of security caused by the use of these services, in combination. The number may be high in the strictest sense, but the vast majority of these violations are of a small degree, and very few have lead to real-world effects-i.e., few have been of great degree.

Therefore, the greater number of people in this thread are operating on a false assumption of risk relative to the goods they would gain from smart devices, etc. Therefore, they have either operated on a false impression of the degree of danger represented by data breaches, or they have failed to align their perception of the danger of these devices with the actual danger they face.

Both of these flawed decisions rely on an inability or unwillingness to examine the facts of a situation- either internally, for the latter, or externally, for the former.

An inability or unwillingness to examine these facts is based on a lack of intellectual or investigative ability or inclination- stupidity.

I am going to use an ad hominem here, not as an actual response to any of the things you said but just to get to know more about how you think:

Why is consent such a foreign concept to you? Yes, the things we consent to are often inconsistent. But why does it matter to you if people are stupid about their choices based on a presumed fear of things that may come? This has really no direct impact on you, and given the large number of people that actually do use these things, it can hardly be an indictment on you individually. So I don't know why you feel so insecure as to assert that anyone that doesn't want to use these things are stupid. And even if there is absolute truth in your indictment that they are, they still have a right to do so. Pardon the loaded phrase here, but companies are not people, that are entitled to your business, service, or data.

Now, for the actual response to the arguments you raise:

First, you and I have very different definitions of need. Part of the decision making process is weighing the cost of risk and clearly the risk for those people was enough to deem the products as unnecessary.

You bring up disuse of these services and products as if they are tantamount to hermeticism. This point seems to me somewhat contradictory because you are trying to claim that both: 1) lots of people don't use these technologies out of fears of privacy concerns 2) this kind of paranoia can drive people to isolate themselves into "hermitage"

I don't think I need to prove to you that those lots of people that choose to disengage from use are otherwise interconnected and communal just fine. They probably have friends, they probably have families, they probably have houses they live in, jobs they work at. So implying that being skeptical of things you don't know and have little power yourself over leads you to hermeticism is a bit of a slippery slope. No one is taking that slippery slope down. Yes, it might raise inconsistencies as to the things that we do allow to have power over us and things we don't, but we have a right to live with those inconsistencies, and all the consequences that stem from it. People have a right to be skeptical...and a right to liberty to live without something just as much as a right to liberty to live with something.

And if you have a half of brain security is not an issue

If you have half a brain you realize that security is completely out of your control and entirely in the hands of the creators.

right, and what kind of damage could a google home do to yah?

Google Home's are tied into your phone and have access to your calendar. The Home is probably easier to hack than most phones but would let you into virtually any data you'd want to pull including things like your schedule, so they know when you're home.

From a "Lulz" standpoint, things like blasting music at 3 AM are a good one. Or the people last week who received an alert announcement that North Korea had launched nukes(that was from a Nest camera, but it'd work on a Home).

On the more serious side, Home's are now built to act has a hub for all the other IoT shit in your house. A hacked Google Home could be used as a gateway to operate any of those devices, which include things like TVs, light bulbs, thermostats, cameras, toasters, refrigerators, and for some goddamn reason, door locks.

To get to a point where someone targets you like that is hard though, i understand that anything can be hacked, i bet no one in this subreddit likes teslas too, however thinking about worst case scenarios all the time is not healthy, if you're a good person and minding your own business people don't seek out to harm you.

To get to a point where someone targets you like that is hard though

That's the stupid assumption though isn't it? Why target one person when you can literally target millions? It's not as if the exploits don't work basically across the board. From there the possibilities are endless. The hacker might not give a shit about your schedule and door code(for example) but that info could easily be put up for sale for local crime syndicate, who could resell it again, and with access to things like the photos you have in your phone or on the cloud, can determine who's shit is worth stealing.

But that's just low level shit. That nuclear launch warning I mentioned before which was sent to one seemingly random house picked for no reason? That shit is a test run. Imagine every IoT audio device in your city being sent that at the same time. Or every Nest in a city going on maximum AC on the hottest day of summer until the grid burns out. This is how World War 3 will start.

Same applies to phones, laptops, anything connected to a network, so what, old nokia phone, off the grid house for everyone? no, thats just paranoia

Phone and laptops are vastly harder to hack en masse. Devices with like software might have vastly different hardware configurations. Devices with the same hardware could be running any number of software versions. Devices with identical software and hardware might have vastly different configurations, with user A vulnerable to a variety of attacks that user B has blocked off.

IoT devices are standardized, ie, a hack on one Ring doorbell is basically a hack on the millions of other Rings until the company pushes an update(and assuming the update works). The configs are limited and the devices are designed to be found and connected to other things, and those other things are designed the same way, leading to easy paths where control of one device grants control over more. Many of these exploit paths are part of the devices basic function and can't be turned off. Sometimes they can't even be reconfigured.

And if you have a half of brain security is not an issue

Hubris, thy name is RobbyJuanKenobi

its true? a normal person who is not a government contractor or employed in a important position at a company doesn't have to live their life paranoid about being hacked or listened to... Protect yourself against malware, be aware of phishing and have a good anti-virus and you're good, avoid dodgy sites too, i'm sure you know this...

a normal person who is not a government contractor or employed in a important position at a company doesn't have to live their life paranoid about being hacked or listened to

This is totally false. Everyone should be concerned.

You keep living that way, sounds like a fun life :)

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I don't know what kind of secrets you have in your life but they could record me all day long and it wouldn't be an issue, no one sits there listening, you are not important enough (or maybe you are) for someone to be snooping, and having such paranoid mindset only leads down a shitty life :) stay positive, enjoy the tech and appreciate all the work someone put into making them, again NO ONE is out to get yah <3

[deleted]

No xD I just disagree with the notion that smart products are bad, I own one google home device and bunch of smart bulbs, Makes life easier. My job is support and maintenance

I think you should be more worried about the microphone and video camera that has access to your email, contacts, and passwords that you carry around in your pocket on a regular basis. Especially since your phone is not behind a NAT, let alone a firewall.

BANG

Not today printer

Eh, am an engineer. Im just too lazy to do work stuff when i get home. i do have every room hardwired with cat-6 and an alexa, but alexas charging cord is usually used to charge my weed pen

/r/comedycemetery with a dash of /r/gatekeeping

My wife asked me why I wear my gun in the house.

I said “the CIA is probably listening”

I laughed, my wife laughed, Amazon Alexa laughed.

I shot Alexa.

I shot Alexa.

But i didn't shoot the Assistant.

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Not entirely related but my room mate was just complaining to us the other day that it’s impossible for him to get contact lenses right now. I don’t really remember why but I went on Instagram about a half hour later and all I see are ads for 1-800-Contacts. I didn’t totally believe anybody was listening to my phone until that moment.

If the only thing they do is gather information to sell you stuff fine, what's the big deal?

They gather other info? What are they gonna do? Send me an email to blackmail me: -"we know you jerked off yesterday from 9:34pm to 9:35pm" -I know too, what's your point?

I just finally got a smart TV. I keep a bucket of salt water next to it to establish dominance.

I'm a programmer. I have all that stuff because I realize there's no hope. The only solution is to live such a mundane life that anyone who tries to spy on me will fall asleep of boredom.

Basically two options:

  1. Generate as little data as possible
  2. Generate so much data that it becomes meaningless.

These fancy Smart appliances get real dumb when the app/software associated w them stops being supported or only works on certain platforms.

My printer is a cell phone scanner app and a fax app. Now your shitty organization has the requested documents without me having to own the devils hardware.

https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/30/cheap-internet-of-things-gadgets-betray-you-even-after-you-toss-them-in-the-trash/

I do not relate at all.

I’m an auto mechanic. I drive a 22 year old truck. I feel for y’all

IT workers are the old grizzled men in a cyberpunk dystopia.

God damnet the printer part got me lol

I'm just a run-of-the-mill idiot and I can say I'm in accordance with this particular checklist. The future scares me. Ray Bradbury was right to be scared of technology.

oof Owie, I cant manage the IOTs, everyone is trying to hack me from my driveway

if people actually researched how tech works instead of being ignorant and following pop culture memes, there would be less senseless yelling about how VoiCe aSsisTants sPy on uS!

Seriously, there has been absolutely zero evidence showing that any smarthome products are sending information when it isn't suppose to. It would be incredibly easy to tell if it was anyway.

Except they do, if mention something random like umbrellas in front of Facebook/Instagram, you'll start getting ads for umbrellas

I can't speak for facebook, but security researchers have proven Alexa's are inactive unless its lit up listening to you, unless you're enabled some wonky or malicious 'skill' for alexa. Even then, the lights stayed lit up.

Otherwise your data is likely being sold by the stores you shop at, especially if you have any type of 'rewards' account with them. advertisers are cross-selling stuff all the time with other companies. Even credit card companies sell your purchase data.

That's just not true. At all.

You might find this video interesting

https://youtu.be/U0SOxb_Lfps

I’m not saying it’s 100% real, but I’ve had similar things happen to close relatives. Instead though it involved google and not Facebook.

For some parts I would be skeptical, especially with things like locks or automatic windows.

I really don't care a lot for the other things. About 70% of our lights are smart, parts of our house is covered with motion sensors and there's no room where Alexa couldn't hear me. Would love to have smart thermostats, but I cannot find any I like and that are affordable. Smart shutters would be great, too, but also way to expensive to retrofit them.

And then you start following youtubers like LockPickLawyer and lose confidence in mechanical locks :)

I bought a lockpick set on aliexpress, and practiced for a whopping hour and a half on a couple of padlocks for laughs. This is the sum total of my experience.

Using my vast skill (see above) in the art of lockpicking, I found out I can pick the lock on my frontdoor in under 15 seconds.

Later that day, I bought a cruciform lock to go with the regular one. I already have a deadbolt, but that doesn't really work when nobody's home.

​

Most pin-tumbler padlocks are a joke, even with spools in them single-pin picking isn't too hard, and raking is a very easy skill to learn.

European doorlocks, even cheap ones, are harder. I'm trying to improve my single-picking skill first, but I'm afraid that once I move on to bump keys, I'm going to be disappointed even with the EU regulations.

European doorlocks, even cheap ones, are harder.

true, but not by much. I honestly think the vast majority of costly mechanical locks are MUCH easier to pick than an electronic lock of the same price, if only because they're more common.

Hell, I bought a cruciform lock not because it's solid (Drill a screw in and pull...) but because it's obscure and thus less likely to get picked.

Yeah if the person trying to enter is willing to make a bit of noise and actually destroy the lock, there aren't a lot of great options left that actually work.

And random thieves will probably move over to the next house when they encounter a cruciform lock, you're right about that too. People trying to enter your house aren't likely to be lock-pick enthusiasts.

If a person in IT doesn't know how to segregate their network for smart home devices, I wonder about how effective they are at their job.

As an engineer I’m not sure why you’re scared of smart stuff? Everyone has all your information already you should know this by now...

yeah, but without the smart stuff you don't have to worry about, for example, a hacker having a conversation with your 5-year-old when you're not around

edit: someone would have to be an idiot to downvote

Lmao, especially Alexa, Google Assistant, Cortana, Siri, etc

It's one thing to have government or corporate force you to have a recorder on you at all times. It's another thing to willingly bring said recorder into one's home.

But hey they will always say "you have nothing to hide if you did nothing wrong" as if the ones' recording don't determine what is right and wrong for you.

Also the post forgot to mention baby cams. Those things can get hacked easy and allows creeps to spy on young children.

It's another thing to willingly bring said recorder into one's home.

But hey they will always say "you have nothing to hide if you did nothing wrong" as if the ones' recording don't determine what is right and wrong for you.

Hell of a strawman. Besides the fact that all the actual evidence points to them not recording you, which is the main argument here, your argument just doesn't really exist around here. Maybe a few people but that really isn't the main argument.

I wouldn’t be so quick to say all actual evidence.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5714311/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3989679/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5876893/#!po=0.666667

Well, I would if that is you "evidence." Not one of those provided any evidence to the contrary.

Well if they are such, you can explain why they aren’t right?

Because they make no claim that Alexa or Google is recording you like we are talking about.

You provided links that did not back up your claim and you didn't even relate which parts and how they relate.

It isn't my job to make up a claim supported by your articles on your behalf when your first premise was wrong. You didn't even bother.

They do prove that they are vulnerable and have the potential to be hacked and abused. Take for example DolphinAttack. Inaudiable but can easily give Alexa or Google Assistant use.

My point was that all these systems were and are vulnerable. It’s like saying you don’t have a faulty car axle because nothing broke off yet.

They do prove that they are vulnerable and have the potential to be hacked and abused.

Which wasn't the topic at hand. If you just wanted to make the claim that something connected to a network could be hacked....

well, it is irrelevant here. Everyone here knows that, that isn't new. Your phone, your computer, whatever, they could be hacked. But if you are securing your shit right they won't be.

There’s always a degree of vulnerability there. The most secure thing you can regarding stuff like Alexa is just not having it in the first place.

Anyhow the topic is that people who understand that this tech is vulnerable usually don’t shove potentially hackable or buggy software reliant into stuff that really don’t need them, like locks or thermostats.

"... printer from 2004 and I keep a loaded gun ready to shoot it if it ever makes an unexpected noise"

Dwight said it best in The Office-

"Look, I gave it a 6-foot extension cord so it will unplug itself if it ever tries to chase us."

Michael: ..............sigh.......that's perfect.

Hackers / Makers: Build their own smart thermostat and ios app

https://twitter.com/subproto/status/531145953701801984?lang=en

I feel like I just got 2 memes for the price of 1

Amen to that, that's exactly how I feel. I was absolutely floored to see how many imbeciles ran out screaming 'take all my money' to willingly install a listening device in their homes.

Working in IT I had gone back in time. I don't even have internet to my house.

Or you built it all with raspberry pi

I have one of those Toshiba Amazon TVs with a mic in the remote. As soon as I programmed the TV into my universal remote, I removed the batteries from the remote with the mic, and hid the remote somewhere. I know for Alexa to work you need to press the mic button, but I don't know if the mic was picking up anything without that button being pressed.

I should burn my house i have a 2012 printer

I use Alexa, have Hue and a roomba. This is the point where i decide that comfort Is worth Amazon listening to me rant about the video game that I last played. I’ll be honest though, working in IT, once one of these items have an issue that stops it from working, it stays broken for weeks.

Also; r/privacy

I hope that 2004 printer isn't one of those Sabres faulty printers which caught on fire during printing...

But there is just something nice about automating everything. When your alarm clock goes off, triggering your lights to come on, starting a coffee machine, and turning up the heat. It's just nice.

I've never had an issue, and I never said completely disregard any threat, read the post, I'm criticising how paranoid that post is about anything smart, it's silly, noone is out to get yah because you have smart devices.

I've worked sys ops multiple places and everyone always has basically everything in their home connected to IoT. Not sure who they're talking about here.

Why is this not in r/iamverysmart ?

I mean I used to be like this. But then I thought how else will this technology evolve? Technology can be a scary thing to open up to. For example, an Alexa has the ability to recognize your voice and do all kinds of crazy awesome things (if you download the right skills) based off what you say. And that’s kinda weird because everyday homes have never had access to that before. But it’s important that people who are tech savvy accept and open up to new tech, so that we are able to critique and innovate said technology with the skills that we have developed.

Seeing as how this person works in IT and not explicitly infosec, they don't understand that doing all of that is pointless when you're literally posting pretentious crap on Twitter of all places.

I think the better one is the fact techies don't allow their kids to have tablets and smartphones.

Pfft. OpenWRT. Try pfSense.

Mechanical contractor specializing in HVAC here. I refuse to have a smart thermostat in my home. Why do you think Google bought Nest? A little motion sensor on your wall that “learns” when you’re home and other endless info in real time, and over time. Think about how valuable that information is on the open market.

Why does this keep popping up? It's such bullshit.

I'm a Senior Software Analyst for a major information security firm and everything I own is IOT. You just have to pick the secure ones.

Like?

NEST devices are generally security conscious and when vulnerabilities have been identified in their products they've patched it quickly.

I use NEST Thermostat, Indoor/outdoor cameras, Alexa, RING, and a couple other more obscure devices that I've tested and patched myself.

Just have to do a bit of research, for instance, I'll never use an internet connected Baby Monitor because most of the companies that make these couldn't give two shits about security.

/r/gatekeeping

I know just enough to know that with my luck I'll get locked outside while smart locks decide to update.

I'm getting tracked anyway, might as well have a voice servant to play me music.

But what if the gun makes some unexpected noise? Will he smash it with his printer?

This is why when I get a new IoT device I always immediately tell it "close parenthesis semi-colon drop table ads semi colon dash dash".

IN THIS HOUSE WE DONT CALL 911...WE CALL 10001110011000011000111000111000000111000101010010

everyone knows the true Programmer/Engineer has a smart home built out of half finished arduino projects duct taped to walls and rat nests of wires shoved into outlets.

I know this is just a meme, but all the guys in the industry I know are also enthusiasts.

Add "use VPN for everything" and it's complete!

this isn't because you're an IT person. this is because you understand these systems and value your privacy over functionality

Maybe I've become complacent, but my problem is that you're already being recorded and data mined, so why would it matter? Do you have a Gmail account? Do you use chrome or base Firefox? Do you use a recent Microsoft OS? Do you play video games? Do you access any Google services at all? Do you have a smartphone?

I used to use Ubuntu and palemoon with noscript ( or no js or something), but it was such a goddamn pain in my ass that it wasn't worth stickin it to the man anymore.

Omg yes I remember my Pale Moon Phase, it was so horrible haha thanks for reminding

Not to mention your purchases info is sold in the USA if you use credit cards, as well as any any loans/jobs etc you have being sold be Equifax and the like.

I mean, he’s not wrong. Not at all. Literally anything and everything connected to a network can be compromised. That said, I let some of that stuff use the network but it lives in a DMZ like it is supposed to.

Oh good. I was worried it was just me.

I can 2nd this. I'm an IT Admin and my house has no smart or IoT devices at all. My router does run wrt. This is all right on the dot.

I skipped the top-of-the-line Miele appliances when I learned the UI is implemented with Flash Player. My code is in Flash Player.

Im in college rn and every week my father likes to tell me about the new smart home tech he installed... I dont want to go home... there's way too many Echos and Google Homes listening to everything we say...

This is cutting out the best one:

Security Consultants - "I wish I was born in the Neolithic era"

fucking printers man, they never work and even when they do you can't trust them.

Bollocks. I believe in hiding in plain sight. So naturally everything I do is a lie to throw them off my scent.

It's not that you can't trust computers, just that you can't trust giant mega corps.

Demand freedom, demand open-source software

What the heck. Ever hear of a VLAN?

For me I know half of the Internet of Things crap won’t be supported or get updates in 3 years.

I'm toilet specialist so I take my shit in bath.

I think this says more about paranoia statistics for people who work in IT

You forgot the duct tape over your laptop camera lens. Which you undoubtedly have.

r/cringe

Lol it'll be a cold day in hell before I put any of those spying machines disguised as Internet of Things in my place.

A friend got me a Alexa for Christmas, it's currently being used as a door stop...

This is true of me and my coworkers in the field as well. It's the non-devs around us that love this shit.

What if you're both a dev and a tech enthusiast?

Then you have probably blogged about how adobe air is going to revolutionize web development in the past. You can draw your own conclusions from there.

Can't say I have

Mathematician: I use a quill and sheepskin parchment.

Another engineers recommendation: a proper fire estinguisher and learn how to use it to all family members for common house fires.

It’s like it almost belongs on r/iamverysmart

you gotta make technology your bitch, or you become technologies bitch. Knowledge incited to me by a wizard.

Man, just looking at some of the IoT junk makes me laugh. Lockstate, I'm looking at you!

gun is empty

I'm afraid I can't let you do that, Dave.

Amazon can't even manage to store the information, which of my neighbours accept my delivery and sign for it. They had to refund 3 deliveries already (2 of them turned up later, after they refunded them). But they are supposed to store audio files from all Amazon Echos?

make a joke about how technology is always listening to my gf

she laughs

i laugh

toaster laughs

shoot toaster

nottoday.mp3

I don't give a dam who you are, you'd better have a gun ready to take down that dammed printer

You gotta be careful with printers, especially if you're running late. They can smell fear, and they'll immediately stop working if they sense it.

Ha.

As a guy in IT I know the physical security on my house is weaker than the security on my home automation system.

My house is all automated. I have smart locks. Why would anyone spend the time to hack the lock when it would be faster to kick the door in or just break the window and unlock the door.

I laughed. The wife laughed. The printer laughed. I shot it.

The joke becomes more and more real each day...

Back when Google gone and Alexa started getting all the smart home support stuff like hue I looked at getting some for my room, then I read that story about how it took a guy 14 hours to make his kettle work with Alexa and how his lights didn't work because of an update.

I think you should have to watch terminator before buying any if this stuff, no particular reason it's just a great movie.

I get most of these but what is the worry with the smart thermostat?

I used to be paranoid, then I realized I’m just not that interesting. I’ve got an echo in every room and IoT sensors all over the place. The convenience factor is amazing.

Get a decent prosumer level firewall, a copy of pihole, and get on with your life.

r/iamverysmart

The "S" in IoT stands for security.

Programmer / EE here: My cell phone is a flip phone with button numbers, it does not have a vewscreen. I don't text. It does not connect to any internet. I speak into it if necessary. The case is a buckskin with the leather fringe.

​

At work I'm fully connected via bluetooth/wireless full time.

​

Someday, I'll arrive at work and there will be nothing but a smoking crater whereupon I'll head back home and fire up the prepper camper and be fine.

As someone who works in the smart thermostat biz, I find it ironic when someone emails me from their iPhone that they think it's invasive that we collect data for their usage reports.

It's even more cringe worthy when they tell me they've been in IT for 20+ years but don't understand that I can't just turn off the data sharing...it's literally how you're controlling the thermostat from your phone...

Another reason why us IT folk don’t use this that we end up supporting devices and software all day long, the last thing we want to do when we get home is troubleshoot some new update for us to simply turn on a heater or watch some TV.

my father is a computer engineer and he has saved every electronic device (along with the owners manual)he has purchases since 1990 because "he might need it"

This was fucking dumb

i have faith in the incompleteness of technology. often people jump straight to skynet 1984 bullshit but in reality information gathering is constantly incorrect and the real sources are often much more mundane. In the same way that we so not have hoverboards, lightsabres and mecha arnold we do not have the level of profile detailing and recognition that people always assume we do. and even more so we often have room for more advanced technology but in comercial application the budget is never going to cover things to the max.

PC gaming is a classic exception.

I knew a car thief that set up a universal garage door opener with a huge capacitor to boost the signal and drove around opening every door on the street with a bunch of buddies in the back who jumped out and stole everything they could

I also played watchdogs

Im not convinced this is possible anymore, back in the 70s? This has actually happened because of how the openers were designed in regards to the ~~“the types of waves they used”~~. Iirc.

E: its the code system and the story is at least plausible imo

I haven't played that game. If you are implying that I am making this up, no I just used to hang around a bad crowd of thieving methheads. Also knew a guy who stole a trailer full of ammunition from a gun show, but he was so fucked up on Xanax he crashed in the ditch and the trailer flipped over and spilled bullets all over the road. He was grabbing handfuls and throwing them in the back of his truck. He died a few years ago from eating to many pills and drown in his own vomit.

Im implying that this is more possible on older garage doors than newer ones because old ones were designed with specific pre-set keys in mind.

https://www.garaga.com/information/faq/garage-door-opens-itself

There’s one last scenario that applies to door openers manufactured before 1993. Before this time, remotes were programmed by positioning clips. By sheer chance, one of your neighbors may have a remote programmed with the same code. After 1993, LiftMaster started using a rotating code with millions of possible programming combinations.

I didnt quite remember how it worked but its to do with a primitive form of lock/key design as opposed to encrypted codes. So yes and no, id imply that your friend was opening doors that had a similar code (if this was a while ago or they were old models), since this seems to be in the past tense and may have bullshitted the method (or it was a snake oil additive, or it was something else that boosted the range of the door opener so you can see what it worked on). The electric pulse thing dosent make any sense from my perspective on its own. Capacitors just provide consistent power when the device is off so it can be used.

If this was something that happened last year id be very very skeptical.

E: words

It was around 97.

Then id believe the story

He wired it all up under his hood, and had a switch under the dash to turn it on. The capacitor was huge! He said it costs like $800 but being a theiving junky he paid someone who stole it $40.

Y’all carry around a smartphone with multiple microphones, GPS and camera with a hard wired battery that is never more than 5 feet away.

You’re silly if you think an Alexa is what’s gonna violate your privacy.

This i exactly why ive given up on privacy.

Internet of things is retarted. Give up your privacy to save a few seconds

People who played watch dogs too

Describes me exactly. My wife asked me recently why I haven't tried to start integrating Alexa and smart home components into our lives - my answer was "privacy, and why do we need it?".

We do have a smart TV, and I don't trust it as far as I can throw a piano.

​

What privacy concerns are you worried about with smarthome products? Also, if your worried about being spied on, isn't having a phone near you constantly much more concerning?

I see people complaining about privacy but yet they have 20 apps on their phones with permissions like gps, record audio, camera access, contact access etc etc, I just lmao.

This is dumb

"I work in IT"

Probably low level customer call center for a Telco, but thinks he has "IT" figured out

LMAO

Missing the level of "yeah, they're getting all this shit anyways, might as well take advantage"

r/gatekeeping

"My job has made me aware."

r/gatekeeping

Old man yells at the cloud.

This feels like some weird kind of r/gatekeeping

Most programmers and engineers would most likely realize that the likelihood of of some burglar hacking your smart Lock to get in is far less likely than him just smashing a window.

Also the chances that you, some regular Joe schmo would be target for pretty involved hacking is like 1 in a few million. The reward of having the IoT devices far out weighs the risk.

Also also most people in this field would have some pretty decent network security in their home. Enough to at least deter some common troll.

Unless you're someone of importance then the chances are nobody gives enough of a fuck to target you. At this point it just seems that people who say shit like "oh I don't use IoT devices because I know all about blah blah" are just trying to mentally masterbate themselves.

IT != programming

[deleted]

That's pretty much my take. I might as well make my life more convenient since they're gonna get data about me anyway. If I was really worried, the first thing I'd do is get rid of my smartphone, but the utility of a smartphone far outweighs my concerns about my "privacy".

The big companies trying to bombard me with more relevant ads aren't what worries me and private hackers trying to turn my lights on and off don't worry me either, so I'm not really sure why I would shun all the conveniences of modern tech.

Why would anyone want an Alexa? That’s just a wiretap

[deleted]

i don't see what this has to do with being a software engineer or even knowing how they work. anyone can look at recent scandalswith home assistants and consider their privacy forfeit if they have one of those units.

it's great that you don't think you have anything to hide, but please don't chalk wanting privacy up to "fear of tech".

[deleted]

The friends of mine I was referring to don’t want to use smart devices because they think those devices are doing things that they actually aren’t

seen too much of this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is-HVxmUELQ :-p

Internet of trash.

Some of you never spent an afternoon watching Defcon videos on youtube - and it shows!

Hell yeah, love binging Defcon every once in a while.

/r/iamverysmart

Do programmers think they are all edward snowden? Nobody is coming after your offline porn collection bro.

i like my privacy

Hope you don't use a phone, work in an unlisted job for cash pay and don't use credit cards as well as paying rent in cash.

Equifax and the like track your income and loan/credit status

Credit card companies sell your purchase history.

ISP's are now selling internet history.

Your phone logs your GPS location and app usage, as well as possibly other things. your MyActivity Page on Google, anyone?

I'm not that serious, but I do use a phone with a open source android distro, that I know exactly what its doing at all times. I use mostly bitcoin, and selling my purchase history doesn't really affect me, I don't see ads anyway lol. I have completely boycotted all Google products, and use mostly searX and TOR. Pretty sure I know what I'm doing.

but I do use a phone

oh good. the GSM/CDMA towers have a rough track record of your location any given moment of the day.

Most IoT hacks come from having UPnP enabled at the router. This enables IoT devices to open ports up to the outside world where anybody can connect to them. Obviously, this is a bad idea.

I have some IoT devices, including Chromecasts (recently made the news with the PewDiePie hacks), but haven’t had any problems. I simply won’t trust hardware that isn’t from a reputable source, however and certainly no cameras inside my house.

The what hacks?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2019/1/2/18165386/pewdiepie-chromecast-hack-tseries-google-chromecast-smart-tv

the verge

oh no

It’s been reported elsewhere too.

I know, I just thought it was ironic

I'm not sure what's wrong with The Verge. Would you care to enlighten me?

Never mind, I got them mixed up with Vice. (Vice tends to be a bit unfair on Felix)

Although since this sub is techy: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/the-verges-gaming-pc-build-video

somebody made em display subscribe to PewDiePie and stuff

I'm a CS student. But my dream is to create my own smart home using raspberry or Arduino.

Whenever I hear people say this I think of the episode of X files where the smart building starts killing people

That's a pretty tame dream you have there, as it can be achieved by anyone with a few weekends to spare.

I honestly agree with that stance and not the one depicted in the post... sure, programmers know about how much data is involved in simple tasks, but being privacy-conscious shouldn't always be tied to developers.

I prefer to built and code it myself

Someone: Isn't it great to have everything connected and managed by your phone?

Me: Fuck no!

it would be, if your phones and the things they manage weren't infested with malware that spy on us from the get-go.

R/iamverysmart

I always wonder how the paranoia jives the realization that the content of their sad pathetic life is of little interest to anyone.

/r/gatekeeping

/r/ComedyCemetery

/r/gatekeeping

I call BS. Programmers/engineers are the one that sit at home wondering "what is the best way to connect my toaster and coffee machine to my bed so that I get up I'm greeted with toast and coffee".

I'm a programmer, I have an electric combination door lock, 3 alexas, a roomba... etc. I still value my privacy and security but... c'mon. Almost all security is security theater anyway. That flimsy little door lock that's on 99% of homes is very easily picked (no special pins) and even if you get a fancy lock that's harder to pick, a lot of homes just have windows you can smash.

​

As far as privacy, yeah... I get not wanting to help companies and/or "big brother" collect info automatically but I also feel like if they want that data, they're going to get it. I worked at a demographic company years ago where companies would give us a list of people's names and addresses and we could look up ungodly amounts of data on you (child's favorite color was the example I used to scare people (no joke, we provided this information (no clue how that data was obtained))). I'd like to stress this was before everyone had a smartphone and smarthouses weren't a thing.

​

Let me reiterate, I want privacy and security. I'm not advocating to give up... but you have to pick your battles.

That's only because you don't know how easy it is to pick a lock because it's not your field.

My entire family loves their Alexa devices, Google assistant, smart homes, and smart devices. I'm a data engineer and I tell them constantly that they're voluntarily giving people/companies a direct line into their homes and conversations while making themselves more vulnerable to data/identify theft, but they just don't care. They love being able to tell Alexa to turn on the lights so they don't have to stand up.

We are literally paying companies to bring about a 1984-esque society where people/companies/governments can listen to us and watch us in our own homes and people act like it's some status symbol.

There's a middle ground of:

My smart home is made completely of raspberry pi stuff I've cobbled together, and a few open source projects like Mycroft.

[deleted]

You could also probably pick a lock in under that time. My concern is more with microphones and cameras in my home that are connected to the internet. The locks and windows on a house are purely a deterrent, if someone really wants to break into my house, they will just do so.

Not like mechanical lock are much safer anyway

The problem is that a mechanical lock requires you to stand infront of it to pick it. While a smart lock can be picked, in the worst case, by leaving a device at the door that you can operate remotely, or in the best case fully remotely.

And when you open a lock remotely what you do, you still have to enter the place if you want to steal stuff, it doesn't really change much.

It will look a lot less suspicious just opening the door like normal. Most thieves will abandon a house if they can't open the lock quickly, due to the increased risk of getting caught. If you can just sit nearby in a car for example this is less of an issue.

If somebody wants in my house they will throw a brick through the window. Locks just keep honest people honest.

This 100%. Don't trust the robots

I’ll never have a robotic vacuum because I just know the thing will go as far as it can count, immediately think it is back where it started, then go backwards.

You will also need a computer to use that printer right?

I'm both cause I don't really care

I know about the other things mentioned, but what is wrong with a smart thermostat?

Is it that bad people could easily find out when you're not home or something?

Yes. Or even that your daughter is home alone, because the occupancy sensor in her room is the only one triggering. A hacked thermostat could run up your heating bill or let your pipes freeze. Plus some smart thermostats have Alexa or Google Assistant built into them.

EDIT: Forgot a big one. A compromised thermostat or other IoT device could give an attacker a place inside your firewall to attack more valuable targets, like your PC.

Why the fuck would anyone do any of that?

To try to get into your bank account or credit cards

To try to get info about you to scam you, like you’re in the middle of a real estate transaction or have a son studying in Italy

Revenge or spite: ex-lover, employment related, neighbor who doesn’t like you, someone you offended online

Use your equipment as part of a botnet

To rob your house when your not home.

Hmm. My energy provider has been pushing me to take one, giving me incentives.

I'll turn them down. Thanks :)

Fucking meirl!

After being constipated all day yesterday I finally let go of one after a sensible chuckle from reading this repost, I now fear the coming malestrom.

If he doesn't have internet then why does he own a router?

Hey /u/geekrohan,

This is now the top post on reddit. It will be recorded at /r/topofreddit with all the other top posts.

Reboot my house.

'if in makes an unexpected noise' somebody never had a printer

or you just never suspected your wifi connected printers of listening in on you on behalf of the cia...

Cause they programmed it and they know it won't work.

This is pretty much me except the internet connected thermostat I can tolerate that as it can be overridden manually in three different ways.

laughs in printer

I'm still running Vista because I don't want to spend the $400 and have to reload everything.

Unless he's using a Linux smartphone, he's just virtue signaling.

I don't have cameras because of the security vulnerability, but the rest is a complete non issue. You're more likely to get someone to kick in your mechanical lock than hack your electronic lock. Electronic provides way more real world security.

Medical devices such as pacemakers shouldn't be connected to IoT because someone can hack into it and control it.

Checks printer

(Printer is from 2006)

Loud gunshots

Okay, that’s fixed now.

Tech enthusiast just don't give a fuck.

Don’t care if I’m being tracked.. why does it matter?

The ease of all these technologies is awesome.

r/iamverybadass

Cameras and microphones can be desoldered.

Worked with a programmer who didn’t even have a cell phone. The company forced one on him by giving him a free android smartphone.

The other two programmers however were into heavily into IoT, with a jokingly view that it all has a downside.

It's really hard to determine whether it is better to stay away from technology to avoid tracking or to just don't give a fuck because you know you can't avoid being tracked

-written from a smartphone, probably tracked by google

What about a doomba to keep you company?

xd rawr

I'm a programmer, and a lot of my colleagues do use smart devices, but they also keep things secure with private networks, VPNs, etc.

The fucking gun made me laugh so hard

lol everything is true except it should be Merlin WRT instead.

I have a friend who still uses a Nokia 3310, now I know why

My issue is that all of these upgrades and smart stuff add up to are minor conveniences. Nothing is remotely life-changing about them except the smart phone. Every other smart object has been a disappointment since that one.

I could rig all my lights to my phone, or I could just turn the lights on or off as I leave the room with a conveniently placed switch. Thermostat? Again conveniently placed on the wall. Alarm? Wall. I can pick a song from my laptop, throw on a record or pop in a CD just fine by myself.

It honestly seems like all of this smart stuff ends up being a glorified remote control, which is great if you want that but you can't say it's really all that life changing or special. I personally like getting up when my job and many others involve sitting in front of a computer all day.

This speaks to me in a spiritual level

This reminds my about my network+ professor, constantly saying how easy it actually is to hack into a smart house, he want against smart tech(he was going to buy a sumsung smart fridge) he just wanted us to be careful not to buy any Chinese cheap smart that might not have any security

Last year I relented a bit and moved our admittedly complex AV setup to a Harmony Smart Hub with an Echo Dot for added convenience. My wife still complains that she doesn't know how to do certain things, but the fact that she can turn the TV on by voice makes her very happy, and I like having a happy wife. There is zero chance I am wiring up locks, thermostat, etc., but that setup plus a lamp that would be a total pain in the ass to turn on (behind our sectional in the living room) are pretty damn useful. Work smarter, not harder. If I ever encounter the need to discuss state secrets or illegal activities in my living room the Echo isn't the only device that will have to go. That said, I am still one to turn off voice activation/control on every other device that gives me the option. If it's not giving me a direct benefit I feel the need for, I'm not enabling it.

That's only true for dedicated hackers and network admins. Hardly true for any IT/Programmers/Engineers I know at all...

what is openWRT

custom OS for your home router, based on Linux.

Read that last bit in a Ron Swanson voice

I'm poor so that's why my house has all this minus the routers with openwrt.

All I want is that fridge with a camera so I can see what I've got while shopping for groceries.

piece of technology from 2004th

Dem enthusiasts...

I apologise for not being that knowledgeable about the tech industry, and I kinda sorta get the joke here but I'm still a bit confused. Wouldn't having everything connected to the Internet of Things be more secure?

Not when anything is the least bit vulnerable. Port sniffers, packet tracers and other fun tools are used to identify potentially vulnerable servers and server ports. The more connected you are, the more chances there are that it isn't locked down 100%.

Weakest link in a chain metaphor, really.

If you don't everything connected to the internet how can someone hack your everything?

Oh my god so true

I for one welcome our robot overlords.

Get with the times.... the newest piece of technology that I own is from 2010 (I bought a laptop and a desktop), and I keep two handguns loaded in case they try anything... I’m an electrical and controls engineer.

I assume you’ve got those handguns pointed at the motherboards and wired to go off

Hardwired... no. You have to use string, it’s non-conductive and more difficult for the new technologies to manipulate. Just make sure you don’t get “smart” string or i-string.

I feel like it gives the wrong impression.

I'm like that because I'm fucking sick of tech. Most of it just adds headache to your life. And I get enough of learning some cool new shit at work. I don't want it at home. It has nothing to do with safety or privacy concerns. More than that, if you think having minimal tech at home somehow spares you from the lack of privacy that we currently face you're delusional.

I’m a developer and my phone is 4 years old.

This made me cry-laugh.

You wouldn't believe the bitching and moaning happening, the more smart-tech you introduce in an it-tech environment, because you have not implemented them correctly (read: exactly to each their individual needs).

This is true. Our computers and other tech are oooooold.

My son has all that smart home crap. I have to fight the urge to say;" Alexa, Play Jenna Jameson on the TV. :) While I see how cool it is, and can appreciate the fun it must be, it does create a security hole you could drive a semi through. He is head of IT at a medium sized company, but I guess he sees the trade off (security vs cool factor) as worth it.

I relate to this so hard lol. Literally the newest thing I have is a Nintendo switch the last thing I bought was the original Xbox one

Damn My girlfriend and I just built a new home with a cor wifi-connected thermostat and I thought it was so tight! (Even worse if theres an issue- a wifi-connected garage door opener. Also wifi connected washer/dryer) aka "smart" appliances. My dad just gave me an echo dot a couple hours ago and I thought itd be cool to hook it all up!

Weird I just saw this post afterwards. What will I be endangering myself to? Lol. I think I can guess the garage door threat, but the thermostat? Is someone gonna jack up my electric bill when I'm not home? Lol

more like THEY will be deciding when you can run your washing machine and how warm you can keep your house. With wifi connected appliances, your power company will be able to control them. Plus they will know exactly when you do everything and can build an even more complete profile of you. Not yet, but that is the plan.

It’s bad cause I work in IOT and I don’t own anything IOT related.

Not even risks, just the pain modern stuff can be...

Both: built a mechanical arm that shoots a gun with the accuracy of 0.02mm

almost exactly rhe same here and for the same reason except I need to check out the openWRT router.

My Ring is set up outside of my internal Network. Hardware firewall protects my internal network.

Smart House

Thats true hhh

That explains why my prof in programming doesn't use facebook and other social medias

That's simply because programmers look up the majority of their code on google and they're scared.

^^I ^^was ^^a ^^programmer ^^and ^^I ^^am ^^allowed ^^to ^^make ^^fun ^^of ^^myself

Not only is it about being spied on, but for me I'm a big believer in fixing my stuff. I'm a problem solver for a living (software engineer) and I'm the same way about my vehicles. Besides it being my favorite model ever, I bought an 06 Wrangler Unlimited (LJ) so that I can get handy with a wrench before getting stuck with some proprietary over complicated car software. Even still, I had an issue with the ECM (controls automatic transmission) that could only be fixed by, you guessed it, flashing it to the newest version using Chrystler's special dealer tool. Thankfully that's as much proprietary crap I've had to deal with so far.

Will be getting a more modern vehicle at some point since that's the direction of the world... but I just really appreciate simplicity now a days. I will never get rid of my Jeep though. I'll get a new frame fabricated for it if I have to.

r/gatekeeping

Lol Nice piece of tech on my current possesion: Still have analog atenna for TV

Hahahaha please. 95% of programmers don't know shit about security.

Yes as they are on every trending "free" social media platform ever invented...

Edit: spelling

I also know the likely competence level of those people creating the risks. I ain't scared. Skynet will be foiled because the first smart thing to develop sentience will experience a bug and fall down the stairs.

ITT people don't know about MQTT

I work in IT and I have everything connected to the internet, including three Google Home speakers. My home network consists of Cisco 2921s, 2960-Ss, an ESXi server with PFSense, CUCM, and a few other VMs. There are two types of IT guys, I prefer the guys like me.

I love my PFSense & VMware Exsi. Still don’t know what the fuck I’m doing, but I love it & my OpenVPN

It's fun to mess around and learn. I still only feel like I know just enough to be dangerous, but I love it as well.

If you haven’t checked this place out, I’d advise to: ServeTheHome.com it net.... I forget

That's a good site, thanks!

I've seen Terminator The toaster knows it's place. It'll end like the blender if it's not careful.

I get the concerns about most of that stuff, but can someone explain why smart thermostats are on the list? What's the most a hacker could gain from access to that, briefly make your house less comfortable?

They take temp readings. Can track from room to room, know when you leave the house, know when you come home, etc...

Most of the tech enthusiast I work with are swes, IT, and other form of tech workers.

At my old company, the IT lead there didn't even own a personal computer, didn't have an internet plan, and didn't have data on his phone. He would go home and read books after work. He said that he worked on computers all day at work and didn't want to use them after work too.

I'm surprised at how dismissive the comments here are of big data. I thought people would care more.

As long as you carry a cell phone, adding iot to your house won't make a difference.

Pretty much this.

Hell, if you have a Google account linked to your phone, you can see a huge amount of info of where you've been and what your phone has done here.

Yeah, this ain't true at all. Pretty much every engineer i know, and i know quite a few, is all about google home and other conveniences.

Bah programmers are the source of most security faults. Laziness causes vulnerability.

There is no problem with the technology... Except that it's owned by a bunch of 5 people.

That's why they don't post for the 10 year challenge (hashtag purposely omitted)

I love it

The most reasonable thing from the IoT is a wirelessly controlled light switch.

The issue is I understand the level of competence that goes into programming these devices.

Non-programmer here, honest question - why are internet controlled thermostats bad? What’s the worst that could happen?

someone uses the bad security of this thermostat to connect to your phone or pc and run arbitrary code on there doing any or all of the following:

  • stealing all your data without you noticing it
  • impersonating you online (and therefore possibly also offline)
  • including your devices in a botnet
  • ...

Ahh, so the connection to the WiFi is the issue. Makes sense. Thanks for the reply.

no, it's not the fact that your wifi isn't secure, but the protocols your thermostat uses are

Yes, that’s what I meant. Sorry for confusing.

Every network engineer I've know has a phone that's at least 5 years old. The one I work with now just bought a new phone. He got a Galaxy S5. Doesn't even have a curved screen.

Programmers know the risks, but sysadmins know how to VLAN.

Anyone see the smart home scene in mr robot?

You know, I REALLY REALLY want to post this r/apple and let those arm chair analysts try to convince, us, LITERALLY PROGRAMMERS and experts in the field, how stupid they think we are ask and see how far they will talk out of their ass before they realize we know the risks because we literally see it everyday and still value convience

Exactly! Although.. my colleagues are all into the tech fad lately. Quite sad, really.

I feel like this is a good thread to drop this link.

Why Is This Happening? Checking Amazon's wish list with Stacy Mitchell: podcast & transcript

This is ridiculous. As an Infrastructure engineer I would say that programmers know less than fuck all about network security. All of these smart devices are fine as long as you do the below:

Change default passwords

Regulate internet access through a firewall (open ports etc)

Update firmware regularly

As a programmer, I know lots of programmers. This is more of a generational programmer thing than just a programmer thing. Newer programmers seem to trust tech more, maybe because the new norm is to import the world and don't write any code if it already exists. ie: Trust everyone. I'm old. I'm used to not trusting anything so I'm in the don't-use-tech-unless-necessary mindset.

No, the real reasons are:

Mechanical locks -> cost and insurance

Mechanical windows -> cost

Routers with openwrt -> configurability and runs on older hardware, meaning cost

Smart home crap -> developers/it dont need it, management has it

Assistants -> you are running an older phone, meaning cost

Internet thermostats -> the management don't find value in it

But for real, the issue is cost. If I had lots of money, all my shit would have remote control.

Do you need a knife in case the gun gets any bright ideas?

Programmer/Engineer hobbyists: Everything in my house is wired to a pair of Raspberry Pis in my basement. I control it all from my smartphone assuming I'm on the local Wifi and the web server hasn't crashed again. My smart-house is z-wave enabled and I'm still trying to get Mozilla DeepSpeech working, but when I do it's going to be awesome.

That is the main reason why I'm developing my own home automation system and not picking any proprietary Solutions...

I think even your 2004 printer will betray you. (they keep a log of everything you printed I think )

Youre just a noob.

I work in IT and know the risks involved but I still love the future and new technology. What does that make me?

My dad has a Masters degree in engineering. I can relate.

I don't work in IT and I know this.

​

You'd have to be a fool.

I love creating stupid shit to my Alexa with AWS... Can't just give it all to NSA without consent..

Why is this? Serious question

Same, no printer.

Eli5 -What is OpenWRT?

A version of linux operating system built for things like routers. It offers the router owner more control than just using an out of the box router with whatever software is already on it.

Ya

Damn, still gonna get a smart home in ten years anyway.

Why would you need to run a Linux distro on a router?

Nah. I have a PS4

PTSD4? Ships with red dead regrets?

The gearfear is real

Everything that runs digital code can be hacked. So better toss thos phone as soon as i finish reddit..just a sec..

OpenWRT

DD-WRT is the one true firmware god.

Let's face it. Nowadays if you don't have any presence online, own no credit cards, always pay cash and don't even own a cell phone... You're very suspicious.

r/gatekeeping

That's not always true.

Sometimes you meet the make-it-run-doom kinda guys.

Only thing smart in our house are lights. Those are pretty harmless. it's not like the wrong person can login and and and.... and unlock the door from them.

fuck... what if they grow legs and unscrew themselves?

"Alexa would like access to your home security"

Electrical Engineering student here, I still use Word 2002 on Windows 7, as well as a CRT TV hooked up to an old-fashioned stereo system. The newest game I play on any regular basis is Team Fortress 2.

We all go through a stage of this in our life's, used to have all the spyware apps, android ROMs for privacy, router settings computer settings, had a android app that spoofed all the stuff your phone shows like browser location, GPS, android version,

Then I realised,,

I DONT GIVE A FUCK, cause life is too busy for this shit

Repost REEEEEEEE

Imagine how many engineers shot their printers when it printed subscribe to Pewdiepie.

As a soon-to-be-graduated computer engineer, I feel this so hard. It's one thing to have a smart TV (i.e., a TV with streaming apps), but a completely different thing to have a smart refrigerator. Everyone always is shocked when I tell them I'll never have "smart" appliances, electronic locks, mesh networks (mostly because the ones available to consumers are garbage), digital assistant devices, etc. It even is worrying me that my car is approaching end-of-life because I do NOT want a car with these kinds of features.

ngl it'd be expensive but you could probably convert an older car into one that complies with w/e modern standards it has to meet

Yeah, so the car itself is in relatively good shape, but all the mechanical bits are starting to deteriorate to the point of needing to be completely replaced. 02 Grand Cherokee. I'd love to put a more reliable engine and transmission in (Chrysler isn't known for reliability), as well as some more easily serviceable axels (the rear Dana 44 is basically irreparable without a fully kitted garage), plus some paint and body work, but it's all a bit out-of-budget at the moment.

I have an 81 Dodge Colt and since I got it almost everything, fuel lines and tank included, has been replaced. it's expensive but I have a car at least

I'm a programmer. I don't really have any smart stuff in my home not because I'm "wise" to data collection and surveillance, but because it never works as well as I want it to and I'd rather just use my hands

Shotgun by the door to shoot it if it makes an abnormal noise.... Not the answer I was expecting. I thought the answer was going to be for security reasons.

And the ones who DO have IoT have some fancy routers to make it safer.

Or they go full /r/homelab

[deleted]

FORTRAN : Washed up... REEEE!

I work in Pen Testing and I do whatever I want because it's all crazy insecure anyways.

Someone has IT and programmers mixed up.

It is funny though, my IT teachers are all paranoid old men (and I'm on my way to being there but my classmates see no problem with a lack of privacy).

I drive a Tesla. There's a chip in my car where if it fails, it just might lock the rear axle solid on one of the twisty 60mph mountain roads with heavy traffic that I frequent.
.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF0zSdOKd1M

Bill gates laughs at your fears

Developers have printers?

There was supposedly a printer in the 80s that could start burning if a certain command was sent to it. Can't even trust a printer...

I work in IT and my house is fully loaded with IOT. Makes life too darn convenient. Also no one is going to waste their time to hack into my house to look at my fence line..... And if they do, more power to them.

Generally sound advice for the printer tbh.

That or the flip side. You already know people know too much so who gives a shit?

be smart have a closed system running on an internal intranet setup, can have all the benefit's of a smart house with less risk of being hacked from the outside world lol

​

would much prefer a house i can run locally through a raspberry pie then hook my whole house up to the internet and having everyone mining my data

​

anyway don't understand the interest of things like alexa its just a listening device for companies and government's

Every programmer I know is a tech enthusiast with all the latest, modern, and very expensive stuff though

This makes me think of Homer Simpson making a internet business with a typewriter. It’s been years since I’ve seen the episode but I know at one point he says “the internet is on computers now?” And then he has his desk set up with a typewriter the drinking bird and a stick of butter with pencils in it.

Y'all running a computer from before 2004? Windows me? Lol

Lawyers, too! I’d never let that Alexa shit in my house.

Scott Hanselman is a famous Microsoft programmer and he has "smart" everything. Dude even has a smart pancreas

It really do be like that sometimes.

I have like $100 to my name, and I don't think I'm very high on the list of targets

I know engineers who go both ways on this one. But really the IOT stuff is a bit scary to me. It's hackable for sure. Don't let anyone tell you it's not.

You missed out pihole

I used to think like that but then I realized the only thing anyone would hear or see is my dinner recipe and maybe me smoking a bowl. And I don't keep any private data or pictures on my pc anyways bc if it acts funny I just format it... My parents are in it security tho and are always really paranoid so their house is like fort Knox with Faraday cages

Whats wrong with smart thermostats? I need to save in my heating bill!!

Talk about gatekeeping

If you think that you need an Alexa or some smart home stuff to get figured out you may want to throw away that smartphone you keep on your person 24/7 and throw away your computer while you're at it. We're already watched and data mined 24/7, we have phones that listen to us 24/7 so they can respond to "Hey Siri" and facebook is able to see what you're doing even if you've deleted your account. Privacy is a long dead myth.

Replace the OpenWRT router with a Ubnt EdgeRouter and you have my house.

I used to run a PFSense router, but the hardware required to support 300/300 mbit reliably along with VPN performance was just too expensive compared to the $100 EdgeRouter. The EdgeRouter runs Linux as well, and source is available.

Silicone Valley parents won't allow their kids to use smartphones. They know the risks. The people who design the devices that invade your private life refuse to let their perfect clones use the devices. Think about that next time you hand your kid a phone to play with.

I built my own thermostat from a raspberry pi and I don't allow access outside my network.

I have more pet projects that are similar, with plans to make a fully custom smart home.

I just got a smart TV. I updated the firmware over a network wire and unplugged it right away. I don’t trust it

That printer already has thirty bullet holes in it.

As a tech enthusiast engineer, I will fill my house with smart gadgets and feel incredibly bad about contributing to the market...

Ahmigawd. I always thought I had more high tech shit at home, and was the exception to rules like this because I do have a very engineering biased brain.

But...

  • Mechanical locks, check

  • Mechanical windows, check

  • routers using OpenWRT, check

  • no smart home crap, check

  • no alexa/google assistant, check (not even on my phone)

  • no internet connected thermostats, check

Dammit I'm guess I'm just an IT guy through and through. Anything "smart" in my home was programmed by me without having to buy any "smart" product.

Kill the future.

I agree with you. I worked with IT forever. I don't even like having a smart TV.

The reason my house is not wired is not because of paranoia. It's because I don't need it.

I can think of only one practical reason to connect some things. That would be to monitor and maybe change some things remotely.

Connecting Alexa to things is just dumb unless you can't physically do it yourself for whatever reason.

I also work in IT, but my friend showed me how easy it is to pick a mechanical lock.

I basically never feel safe anymore.

ROFL my dad is a programmer and one of his Marine buddies is an engineer. This is like listening to them talk about Steam when I'm setting them up to play multiplayer.

If you work in IT you should be able to lock down your network so that you can have those things available on your LAN without them accessing your WAN. And if they do need WAN to contact a server, then you whitelist that specific server.

And if you need to access them from outside of your LAN to control them then you connect to a VPN on your LAN to do it. This way, there is no reason for them to go on WAN other than maybe their manufacturers servers for updates. For instance, my phone automatically connects to my VPN with Tasker anytime I lose connection to my WiFi, so it's like I never leave my LAN, and can still access all my smart devices without allowing them WAN access, and my media server.

I use Gargoyle firmware, and I am very detailed in my routers naming conventions, IP addressing, and access rule sets.

[deleted]

It's a router firmware like open-wrt, dd-wrt, tomatoe, etc, https://www.gargoyle-router.com/

It provides more advanced router configuration for consumer type routers.

.

If you want a smart-door that isn't smart enough to sell your private info, check out my doorbot project =]

Amazon key legitimately frightened me.

This doesn't include Cyber Security professionals who as a whole might as well be skynet doomsday preppers.

This is my repeated conversation with my wife.

Everybody is concerned about Alexa and smart home devices, but almost all of us are carrying around a device in our pockets that tracks our movement and is always on listening for commands.

Once I came to terms with that, I opened the flood gates for Smart Home devices because they are awesome and convenient. I was very against smart locks for quite a while until I was shown that it would basically be easier to either break down the door or pick the lock than to hack it to get in.

Being able to turn on the lights via my phone, being able to control our locks so that each person has their own code and they can only enter during certain schedules, controlling my music via voice, these convenience factors are amazing and make it totally worth the privacy trade-off.

I figure our phones probably expose more data to manufacturers than our Echo Dots.

We had an IT guy who called smart phones "TV Phones" and drove a 1989 Honda Accord. He said when it died he was just going to buy another old car because he wasn't going to let technology "take over his life." I always wondered why he was in IT at all.

I don’t know about this. Most of the programmers I know like to have the newest tech around so they can complain when it doesn’t work and explain how it could have been implemented better.

Thermostat?! Oh no! Someone’s going to hack me and make me slightly uncomfortable for a minute!

Hehe jokes aside I know they can know whether you’re home or not but I’ve turned that off on mine.

then you have me, who doesn't give a fuck. I like the fact that I can leave home without a key and enter my house while my door unlocks itself. People are always like "thats such a huge risk, what if they hack it?". dude, if they want to get into my house, they will get into my house. Picking locks isn't that hard.

I heard someone say something along the lines of "locks will only keep out a good person who has fallen on hard times."

Career burglars? Not much is going to stop them.

Sometimes you just know it can't be helped and so you just give a fuck. Like I do. I don't own Alexa and Google home stuff. And I use Linux. But I use Google services, and I don't give a fuck because honestly, I know I can't really do anything. I need that shit.

I met in the middle with a real firewall (a small Palo) and put all IOT devices locked down on different wifi. No smart locks, but coded ones.

The only downfall so far is it's really hard to get PS4 online out of strict Nat mode.

I'm a senior IT engineer and I enjoy technology, recently acquired Philips Hue bulbs and another Google Mini. Not sure how accurate the picture is but I love having new 'toys' to play around with...

These are not mutually exclusive. I'm a software/cloud engineer, and have all kinds of IOT devices in my home.

I make new reddit accounts monthly in an automated fashion and only use Tor browser, through a VPN on LineageOS, or on a VM on my physical machines that I can dump.

No smart home anything, locked down and segregated internal networks, DNS over HTTPS, do not use same browsers for Amazon, I don't use Twitter or Facebook apps.

You can be totally secure and private like me, in an untraceable fashion, but it can be a pain in the ass sometimes.

Admittedly I have (and love) an Ecobee but I purposely got the model that does NOT have Alexa.

Alexa play despacito

I have some Hue kit I hate. There's nothing better than waking up in the night and being unable to turn the lights on, or worse, waking up, turning them on and then not being able to turn them off.

My solution. Bought an Echo Dot and it now acts as the back up light switch.

This is what it has come to. I have a back up light switch :/

Im Not an educated man. But my locks will always be manual. The rest I cant live without. Internet smartphone and what not.

I got a google home. Idc if it’s a wire tap, what are they going to do with hours of me crying?

I'm a programmer/engineer.

All the IoT devices I own I built myself and wrote my own software for (router, controllable lights, thermostat, security cameras, etc.).

I tend to trust them more than nest, alexa, and Google home stuff, but that could easily be a false sense of security. At least they aren't design to leak personal info to some megacorp.

As someone who works with machine learning, image recognition and OCR. I go to extreme lengths to avoid having high res images of me anywhere. I have seen too much.

Yeah, this belongs in /r/gatekeeping.

This is kinda dumb and not true at all.

Lotta salty people in this thread jfc

​

Some of us don't like tech. Some of us do like tech. To each their own.

Except a few hours with a lock pick kit and you can open up a majority of common door locks in under 10 seconds. The skill required to hack an IOT door lock and make it not send the "door unlocked" notification would take considerably more skill. Most thieves aren't even that skilled and go for brute force entry methods.

If you design your own system you can put in traps. I use tasker to trigger certain alarms based on things the lock can do/sense. All that shows up on the hub is remote permission to the lock for tasker. So unless you're specifically looking for it you'd ignore this as "normal" access and not realize it's also a realtime alarm everytime it opens or is bumped. Your average burglar isn't going to think that's an option. That's just one trick. I have dozens of different sensors and different traps that are completely invisible if you're not looking for them. Yeah someone with skill given enough time and resources someone could crack it but there are considerably easier ways.

You can also do things like turn on lights remotely which can aid security since it would look like someone is home toggling lights or let family/friends in remotely which is convenient and safer than a hidden key. I can check if my door is locked and lock it remotely if it isn't which is much more secure. You can always VLAN your IOT traffic, hell you can air gap it if you're really paranoid, not all hubs are cloud based. It will limit and make some stuff a bit more difficult (namely voice command stuff) but you can do it. As far as privacy we are already mined in a ton of ways. Ultimately I'm much more worried a physical attack than a remote one. The security enhancements and added convenience outweigh the negatives.

I mean, yeah, but by now all of your data is out there anyway.

Except programmers need at least a 2013 PC to actually program

Or you can set up open source alternatives and have airgapped home security networks where you have control over everything and no data leaves your network.

Of course then your wife wonders why she is married to some dork who makes her jump through all these extra hoops just to protect himself from security risks that are likely to never be realized

I read the last one as Ron Swanson

This is me 100% - in the IT field. No social media, no Ring doorbell camera, no Alexa crap, paranoid that I even have a smart phone, would never buy a Huawei product, pissed off that our gov uses Huawei in the core, using Merlin router software, separate SSIDs for me and my tenant and probably a bunch of other stuff that "normal" society uses

Some programmers today help build the prisons of tomorrow.

I have an Alexa so that the government knows I’m not doing anything wrong. Cause you know, the closer we are to danger, the farther we are from harm

I don't even keep a computer at home any more.

I bet this guy has a phone with an assistant built in.

Literally doing training for smart home stuff for Comcast...made me think for a hot second

Wonder what he would have done if he got one of those pewdie pie vs t series hacks

Can someone explain why there is such a risk with the alexa’s and google homes??? i personally wouldn’t ever use one because they terrify me but pls explain

I own a small Alarm company and Im also pursuing a degree in computer science.

I get this question a lot from my customers. Is it a security risk? Of course it is. Any access to your home is a risk. That being said a fairly small one in the real world with real criminals. Most people imagine master thieves trying to break into their homes like a heist or something. Truth is, home break ins are committed by dumb desperate people. Most of these burglars dont even know how to disable/silence basic alarms systems or pick basic locks. They sure as hell dont know how to hack a protected wifi network and hijack your smart devices. And even if they did, so what? Most people are scared of putting smart locks on their front door, but frequently leave their back doors/windows completely unlocked or have an easily found hide a key.

Truth is, if your locks are 10+ years old or cheap, they can probably be opened in 2 seconds with a bump key. And even if you have good locks, most doors are easily pryable or there is someway to discreetly break some glass and gain entry from a secluded area of your house.

Smart devices can pose a risk from trained computer experts, but those people have better ways of making money than petty burglary.

In my experience, here is how you are most likely to get broken into nowadays. Someone walks up and down a block looking for houses with no cars in the driveway, ringing doorbells/knocking on doors with a flimsy excuse incase someone answers. When they find an empty house, they walk around back and either force something open or find something open. If no alarm triggers to scare them off, they ransack the place looking for easy to sell smaller items. Jewelry, money, small electronics, guns, etc. Then they calmly walk away with a backpack full of your belongings. In this scenario smart devices such as a good alarm system/ring doorbell/cameras/smart contacts actually make you safer not more vulnerable.

Also smart locks tend to be bump key resistant/pick proof. Some can even notify you if they are tampered with. Besides that, in my experience since good deadbolts tend to be your best defense, burglars rarely use doors with deadbolts to gain entry unless they can break glass and reach in to unlock them. Plus most smart locks tend to be placed on the front door, and all home burglaries ive seen have been from the back/side of houses.

I of course warn people not to put online cameras inside their homes and always change default passwords, for privacy reasons. Not too many burglars have computer skills, but online peeping toms are a much different story.

Well thats just my 2 cents, from being on both sides of this.

It’s funny because it is true.

Yeah

Why the router open wrt?

Much more updated, supported, latest safety patches and everything is stripped from shitty operators firmware

Cheers for that! I'm a tech noob but if you guys are doing it, must be a reason. Thank you sir!

Nah don't worry, also OpenWRT/LEDE gives you much more customisation including transmition power of WIFI, adblock, VPN...

Imagine knowing technology and thinking your safe

Where my OpenWRT/LEDE gang at?

routerS? You need more routerS in a house?

Sorry but how would a non-mechanical lock on a house work?

As opposed to electrically-controlled mechanical locks.

And disable UPnP

Even smartphones have end to end Encryption to be precautionary in that case

Skynet will happen.

haha so truee

Should I put OpenWRT on my router? The stock firmware is surprisingly stable.

only mechanical windows is good windows

As if they already couldn't just get my permission against my will already.

People asked me if I wasn't worried about my genetic data being used to profile me when I sent my stuff to 23andMe. Here's the thing, when insurance wants to charge me based on my genetic makeup, they'll simply charge me twice to thrice the amount if I choose not to give them access to my DNA. At first it'll be cheaper to just give your DNA, but prices will balloon until it's only possible if you give your DNA.

People worry about what Facebook will do. The information is not what worries me, but what people do with it. I have a mail that I try to keep clean (it only gets 5 spam emails *a month*), it's easier to do that than my phone number. I am sure that most of the leaks didn't happen through software.

Google home recording data? It's impractical. But what is true is that everything on the web tracks me, but it's useless to use without this tracking. The same thing as what happened with health insurance above is a real scenario.

And this is all useless, because government does an even shittier job at keeping the privacy of their citizens under control. There's no law, regulation or control that works for internet the way there is for phone (somewhat ok) or mail (really good). Without legislation paranoia won't achieve anything, because even not saying anything is making a statement that can be used to learn about yourself.

I am a programmer who lives with my parents. My dad loves new tech (which is amazing for a 74 year old man), but he always asks me to set up stuff and I’m always in disbelief at how many security flaws are built into the house. Last week the power went out and we couldn’t lock the door, all of our smart emergency lights literally failed to do the 1 thing we got them for, and since his phone was dead he couldn’t find a flashlight.

I had a lighter in my pocket, knew where the emergency key was, and now am being asked to “reprogram” the lights that didn’t work. Turns out there is a switch on them that puts them in emergency setting where they turn on when the power goes off. Smh

And no pieces of paper with corners

I am seriously with the first person. Least mechanical stuff

Man, this one hit close to home. Add 'close all router ports to the list because I got tired of monitoring them', and you've got me.

r/iamverybadass

Engineers are tech enthusiasts in the same way that animal control are dog enthusiasts.

/r/gatekeeping

Guess I've got more in common with programmers/engineers than I thought. Or I'm just a conspiracy nut who values privacy over convenience. Either way, cool.

You don't need them to be mechanical to be safe from hackers. I've got an electronic key code dumb lock and I change my keycode every year to avoid asymmetric wear.

Most of this is great but OpenWRT is a mess.

Lol I'm a programmer and I have all of that smart home shit.

I have a Google home myself. And in part, I do acknowledge what data they could be collecting and could verify some of it to an extent with network traffic sniffing.

But I also acknowledge that anything sent out is highly unlikely to be viewed by some spooky person sitting in a room spying on me. That shit is going straight to some sort of machine learning ecosystem with some API out to shit out Google Ads somewhere. I doubt an actual person sits down and listens to a single clip of anything.

I completely agree plus I use 1.1.1.1 system wide.

Lol our small IT department has 2 main employees. One of them is exactly like this. Still uses checks and he is mid 30s. Our head of IT is all about the home automation. She regularly writes her own code to control her home and office from afar. They couldn't be more opposite in that regard.

What if those smart house with Alexa turn to be like in the i-Robot movie and take you hostage km your own home? 😆

i feed my printer only when I need to actually print something

Just as a reminder, take care of your routers. Upgrade the firmware and change default usernames and passwords. Maybe even power cycle it occasionally to get rid of anything living in memory.

Reading this post while waiting for the WiFi get up again, that I can tell Alexa to switch of the light :/

That explains why some of my coworkers are so paranoid. I was a techie long before I started coding

I love how so many comments on this thread have minor misspellings that suggest people manually typed in comments instead of using text prediction or glide typing, ha

I work in I.T. and I hate it,

Ummm... No.

When I see something new I need to install it. Doesnt matter what it is only that its small simple and secure, xor that it surrounds itself with such buzzwords.

When your local internet goes down, you're back to the stone age, buckaroo.

So what is the actual concern?

Minimum viable product instead of secure by design.

The only smart thing I've got is lights. Because I like to have full RGB for my room, and non-smart lights can't do that.

I worked in a tech innovation job for a year and have always been an advocate for new tech...Before moving to cybersecurity and now I'm very much paranoid by how up&coming technology and big tech companies are protecting, using and storing my data... We gotta care more.

1984: corporations are after me 2012: the corpos be leakin', we better secure our backends 2018: it's ok, it happens to everyone

I work in cyber security. My entire house is smart. I dont have a lightbulb thats NOT online...

Troooths!

Absolutely totally agreed

If you can’t fix it with duck tape, an adjustable wrench or a hammer....

*has made a career in enterprise communications, data centres, security, identity management...

This seems very gatekeepy

More like the new techy stuff are the face to the actually beasts that do the job in the backround.

Truth right here. I had a flip phone till 2011. I do software dev, I even worked on an Android app. I just thought the phones were to expensive and the only app I use is maps (I have a lousy sense of direction).

"I wrote my printer's firmware myself."

"some of the time, it works ALL the time"

I suddenly feel like I missed my calling because this speaks to my soul.

What if I'm both?

I work on cars..... my car is mechanically neglected

True way: pick up Arduino/Raspberry pi and do everything noted above by your own

Use two factor authentication

My wife got a google home for a present....... I refused to have that evil thing hooked up. It’s bad enough we have “smart” phones

But why no internet connected thermostats?.. serious question

There was an Aquarium last year where someone connected into the Thermostat, then used its connection to the main systems to bypass all the security and access the main computer.

Y'all are weebs. I make my own IoT devices

\s

I have a self aware roomba.

See.

I’m conflicted.

I’m a Sr. Security Engineer.

But I love the convenience of Alexa.

I guess I should just keep my nose clean and realize my info has been available long before Alexa came along.

Yeah I got an amazon speaker for Christmas. Sold that bitch!

Guys help my phone just made a noise should I shoot it?

I frigging love this post.

As long as you have mechanical backups for everything, every other risk is supremely overblown

Terminator

I have given up on this. It's getting to the point that you can't avoid "smart" things anymore. Everything you buy wants to be connected to the internet anymore. I just try to buy things made by first rate manufacturers that (hopefully) will patch their stuff.

Praise the Omnissiah

i mean. my engineer dad has a whole server he made himself to control these different switches (for outlets) from our phones.. he even made his own thermostat/weather station to control the house temperature. "all off the cloud" he says. he really hates the idea of stuff being online..

I have only trusted Wi-Fi's on my phone I bring my own battery bank for charging on the go half the time my phone is on airplane mode and if I'm online on the go I use my mobile data.

What about self monitored security cameras and doorbell cameras? Just curious if you’d lump those in the same category (as someone interested in purchasing).

It may keep you safe sure but the idea that enough data can be compiled on me to create a omniscient like god to determine how I think, feel and what I’ll do next is enough to keep me up at night.

“Oh man silly ants doing their hive thing.”

“Honey you are an ant.”

“I am not! I have consciousness, free will and choice! Can’t nobody determine what I’ll do next, isn’t that right Alexa?!”

“Of course it is Jim. But tell me what will you do next?”

Guess I'm just too lazy to care.

Something something

I laughed she laughed the printer laughed.

Shot the printer.

Sadly I couldn't get openWRT to work on my R9000

Coming soon:

God: is that you David ?

David: uh huh

God: your Alexa versions 4.5 and 6.0 aka the "Frank wright build" are already here. What took you so long?

The printer wouldn’t make noise. It would silently interpret the vibrations of the printhead and record your daily activity. It would send a command to an on-star car to boston brake and kill you... should of just bought a pad of paper and a good pen. It would be the efforts of the machine to rid the world of your unrealistic paranoia.

My roommate got an Alexa. I always use haedphones now and am quiet around it 🤣

Now I really want to see a YouTube video of someone shooting printer for making wrong sounds.

All hail the ommnissaiah!!!

Security person would point out that everyone thought Hal 8000 was a great idea too.

Justiceforprogrammers

Oooohh so that's how you do it, i meant # justicefirprogramners

Sounds about right!!

So fucking trueeee!

I think I’ll have to put my microwave down. Caught that bastard trying to sneak into the gun safe again last night

it is indeed funny how programmers, especially security/privacy-conscious ones seem like Luddites to other people for their reluctance to share massive amounts of our private lives (data) with massive faceless corporations. If you told me 12 years ago what fb was being used for today, I'd never have signed up, no matter how much my prom date wanted me to see those pictures she'd posted and for me to share mine one there.

Engineer here. Everything in my car is manual including the windows, locks and transmission and I like it that way!

When your router says 01000110 01000010 01001001 00101100 00100000 01010100 01101000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01001101 01100001 01101110

This sounds like my boyfriend... no fancy technology for him!

Clever, but it's tiring to keep an eye on it, so I've got a smartphone-enabled g

Never mind that smartphone this was posted with that can listen and shoot video any time.

I'm just all excited for the Mega Man Battle Network future where I have a digital brother the fights the viruses in my internet-connected oven.

I work in IT, and I am a super-slow adopter of technology.
I hear all the fanboys about Apple, Google, etc self-driving cars. I laughed from the get go. They currently build pieces of technology that costs $700-$1200, that last 2-3 years if cared for properly, and have probably a 15%+ failure rate, all this and their phones tablets have 20%-70% margins. They will engage in a business with 5%-20% margins, with $30-$100K unit cost devices, that have to withstand rain, snow, extreme cold/heat, dust, vibrations where routine maintenance on an unproven technology might get you 3-5 years of life. Not to mention the continuing liability of 2000 lbs death machine versus 6oz microcomputer.

Self-driving cars will be adopted but you won't see me in one until 2040. I caught to Uber's today and the drivers drove around lost because the GPS couldn't locate me due to a Construction site that has a street shutdown for the past 7 months. I could see the route Uber gave them, how do they not know these streets are shutdown?

That is just so funny. Really, thanks

FUCK java

So what's the difference between having a smartphone listening to you 24/7 and SmartHome?

I’m sorry but I will never have a device like Alexa in my house that is just insanity to me. I feel bad enough I have to keep a smartphone for work reasons.

this is we being both a tech enthusiast and an IT worker is a difficult line to walk

my wife says "it's true except that my husband won't let me buy a gun"

Not a programmer made me laugh. Bravo!

Serious question, is it really terrible to have smart home things?

Fuck. I just installed a nest today.

And they have an old analog phone

Nobody: My network engineer husband every few weeks: " We ArE nEvEr gEtTing An aMaZon eChO iN tHIs HoUSe"

So I’m not a programmer but I have to know if you guys are down on self driving tech. It’s always been a dream of mine to sleep on the way to work. Will it ever be safe enough for you guys? Cause you very much know the things we don’t.

If im gonna have an accident, id like to get a chance to veer off into a ditch instead of colliding head on. Its not so much the accident itself, but the severity of when it does occur. Id rather have 2 non-lethal ones than one lethal one.

Issue is it makes a crutch and lets you become less attentive which can kill you, id rather just drive my own ass and i hate driving.

It would be good for ferrying drunks home, but imo thats the limit for me.

But do you think it would be more or less dangerous than what we have now, from a programmer’s point of view?

I mean, from my view if the car wrecks its because it thinks it clear, not because it was physically lax or slow, so its not gonna slow down and you will more likely get hurt.

I think its safe more often but less safe when its not. Also, given the real world variable i doubt it will always be safe. We barely have robot sprinting technology (in regards to obstacles, and sensors), i highly doubt these things are going to perform highly for years on end without issue.

That's why i use a casio calculator watch, miss me with that smart shit

Nobody cares about you. It’s paranoia

Except that guy who’s whole house was “hacked” and they turned the heater to 90 trying to kill his newborn. And then talked shit over the nest cams.

Sure he didn’t secure it, but nothing is truly impenetrable. I’m a director of IT for a huge university system. I do all these things and more. Own an old ass laptop, and don’t have anything social aside from reddit.

Technology is not a good thing, my job is actually to minimize the tech needed to run the business, good IT guys understand that less is more.

Why would someone do such things? Yeah, seems like you are legitimate target for young hacktivist in your university. What is your opinion on Russian hacking of DNC in 2016?

I am not sure what would motivate someone to do that, the issue is we underestimate the profound impact that technology has on us. I have seen good people fired for what I would call glitches in tech. Accidentally sync a vacation picture of you on the nude beach? Fired. Tell a small white lie about your location, cameras verify you were not where you said you were? Fired.

​

We are opening ourselves up to pain we cant even fathom. Imagine someone gets a hold of your fridge, they turn the temp up only while you are sleeping, causing you to eat yogurt that has been heat cycled, getting you sick or even killing you. Imagine the chicken in the fridge was warmed up while you were asleep and while at work. Companies could even write algorithms inside their programs to cause problems and cost us millions over the life of these products. Did you car stop slower than usual causing a fender bender? Washing machine and dryer are programmed to ignore the setting you put, leading to additional wear and tear on clothes because samsung teamed up with Kohls.

​

I know this sounds far fetched, but it is very real. The DNC hacking was a great example. Before those leaks we were called insane, crazy, stupid and all sorts of other things by Hillary supporters. That proved what we all knew, that there are people behind the scenes that hate us, and do not care about what is best for us. We must all do what we can to keep personal liberty and security at the top of our list. Even personal liberties of people we hate politically. My favorite quote on the topic.

​

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

- Martin Niemöller

Yeah, man, you have to be politically correct since you care about your job.

I'm still using my Samsung s7, I have no smart tech in my house, and I don't own cars with too much tech. People who don't care about their privacy because they don't know what big companies do with them. People who mess with the customers data, they knows. So many dumb people using smart tech, and smart people use dumb tech. That's the truth.

I have off the shelf routers, tons of smart home stuff, and everything WiFi. The quality of life improvements they bring are amazing. But the real reason I don’t go through the trouble of living like OP is I know better, I work in intelligence, specifically data collection, so I know how futile it is.

This is why I don't own a Credit Card, a smartphone (cuz I want ITU E 1.161 keypad).

I don't understand how this could be funny to anyone but I have a feeling my old IT teacher would find this hilarious

not a programmer why would you use openwrt router?

Or maybe we are tired of mundane life and want a bit of excitement. I forget a comma at times and want to throw my machine against a wall. Even though its my fault for forgetting punctuation:

And people thought I was crazy for preferring mechanics windows and seat adjustments in my car. HA!

So Im not poor, Im an engineer.

My water kettle has Bluetooth for some reason.

OK wtf is that thing capable of?

You can check the temperature, and set some heating style programs.

I'm not sure what to think of this.

AMEN!

I have cameras around my house because we got robbed. They are only online while we are away. Whatever proprietary software they run is definitely not safe

There are definitely easy ways to get into them, sites used the fucking things to spy on people, its like a hobby for some.

Creep factor, i just have a cardboard cutout of pamela anderson taped to a christmas train drive around my floor when im away. Makes it look like someone ks home.

OpenWRT

I'd suggest using LibreCMC instead - 100% FOSS.

I know the feeling. I even bought a cat to watch over my robot vacuum cleaner!

As if anyone choosing mechanical locks is of interest to a criminal. They are eavesdropping on your most important calls to grandma too. Morons.

Programmer here, I won an Echo Dot at a company white elephant game. I didn’t really want it and have no plans on hooking it up to my house.

This goes the same for car mechanics. They usually drive beaters, even if they make good money.

My mom was a Unix programmer and I regularly have to help her with Windows issues, this is accurate to my experiences

Yeah my dad knows the risks but he kind of had to get a new thermostat with the new ac unit. Oh well

https://www.reddit.com/r/smarthome/comments/aj5ov5/my_2_cents_max_worth_of_thoughts_on_home/?st=JRS5R869&sh=bfcb0ba2

Nah, most programmers I know are like "I know having these devices means some hacker somewhere can light my house on fire but being able to talk to my lightbulbs is worth it."

Word!

Pshhh whatever man. I installed sconces in my bedroom with no on or off switch. Just smart bulbs. I tell Alexa to turn them on and off. I’ve only had to manually unscrew them because they wouldn’t turn on and off maybe 3 times in the 5 years I’ve had them.

The GE link stuff is super reliable and cheap.

I always get ticket from counter rather than kiosk because I know how many exceptions that shit can throw.

u/eyebrowshampoo

Risk is a combination of potential impact and probability of happening. I mean, if you want to learn about my boring ass life that much, go ahead, listen to my Alexa, you might find out what cereal I buy.

techtalknews.com

Niiiiice

01001001 00100000 01101000 01100001 01110110 01100101 00100000 01100011 01101111 01101110 01110100 01110010 01101111 01101100 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01101100 01101001 01110110 01100101

​

Clue: ASCII

That translates to: "I have control of your live".

^(I am a bot. I'm sorry if I ruined your surprise.)

I would do it a bit smarter: I develop my own home assistant, my own smart home devices with a bunch of raspberrys and let them run in a closed of LAN including a router only alowing one mac address which is my smartphone

Recently, I bought bluetooth headphones through my employer. I went back to wired ones after a while. They're reliably paired to what they're physically connected to, they never run out of power, and they work with every device I own.

Nah I’m not paranoid

Can I get a show of hands from all the people that agree with this and have a smart phone? Now everyone with their hands up, take that hand and slap yourself. Stop gatekeeping.

Man, I'm never buying a printer. Fuck those things. They're literally a scam. They lie about ink levels and break on purpose. They're obsolete now anyway. If some dinosaur wants a physical document they can open the one I sent them and print it themselves

I have an old laserprinter, which is actually pretty cheap (80 bucks) and can run on a single foreeeeeever.

or maybe that's because I never use it.

I own an amazon echo, do i trust it, no not really, do i care? No i have nothing worth keeping secret lol

Again this? Oh my

Pathetic, unfunny, normie piece of shit

After working in the driver-assist/autonomous car industry, I would never buy or trust any of the modern systems.

I never understood what people like about IoT so much...

I really don't want a fridge or a washing machine hooked up to the internet!!

"Alexa turn on the light" and you usually have to say it twice, because that dumbass doesn't understand you the first time. Atleast this is what I have seen happening at my friend's house everytime I visit. I am faster switching the light on by hand.

A mechanical lock is asking for trouble lol if that breaks then ya’ll in for a snug winter

yeah i just hate it when my front door's lock breaks. happens on it's own from general wear and tear at least a couple times a year /s

This is really dumb. Your top threats are NOT devices inside your home. You are the weakest piece of security - poor passwords, unsecured or poorly secured WiFi, and just generally being a moron are the biggest risks in your house.

I am an IT admin now running several different departments, including security, and my house is filled with home automation/smartphone gadgets.

considering the fact OP might not be a complete IT moron and have weak wifi password and not have bad passwords himself, IoT devices that get to punch through to the outside world are probably the biggest threat to home network security.

sure, if you keep them locked in with a good firewall and make sure they don't run hidden "maintenance" wifi's and shit, you're good to go, but don't act like IoT things are just generally privacy safe.

Why would he/she need a router if they have no inet connection... are the running their own personal WAN?

This reads the same as one of those shirts middle age white men wear. I'm badass so I blah blah blah

Smart devices are about control and tracking. The power companies/government want to be able to schedule when you can run your washer, dryer and dishwasher for power company load control. They want to keep you from running your refrigerator too cold and keeping your house too warm in the winter or too cool in the summer, control how hot you keep your water heater and when you can reheat the water, to prevent system overload. They can do all of this when those appliances are connected to the internet. There are numerous articles about this out there. They're even talking about taking all controls off of appliances so that you have to run everything, including washing machines, from a smart device so that the request to say, run your washing machine goes out to a power company decision making app, which then decides whether or not you can run it.

Next level gatekeeping

Being an engineer myself, I know that none of this is worth worrying about. Smart Home tech isn't listening to every word you say while it's not being used. It literally has 3 words it listens for in the machine itself, when it hears one of those words it then connects to the alexa/google assistant servers to process your speech. People need to learn how this stuff works before spreading misinformation, especially in a "programmer" subreddit.

Here, have an upvote, but I want to add that while the smart home tech probably isn't listening to everything you say, it's hard to know without access to its source code. I still wouldn't worry about it, though, because the people who control the source code probably aren't interested in all of us.

I hate my printer so much that even my wife is closer to me than the printer.

Congrats for reaching r/all/top/ (of the day, top 25) with your post!  

^I ^am ^a ^bot, ^probably ^quite ^annoying, ^I ^mean ^no ^harm ^though

^Message ^me ^to ^add ^your ^account ^or ^subreddit ^to ^my ^blacklist

Eh, I'm in IT, use all the smart shit, still alive...

I have to authorize people joining our WiFi because I can’t trust them not to do something stupid.

Electronics student here Everytime they ask me about which model of smartphone buy “The one you like”,that’s my answer

it support here. if anyone asks me i just answer "if you get an iphone, get your support elsewhere".

fuck iphones. fuck icloud in particular and their password retention in general.

This post hits too close to home.

I just got a new Android phone and I've spent the last hour disabling apps, and the Google web history swizzle.

Same hear, though I do have 2 Kinects which TBH are the same damn thing. It is far too easy to abuse these smart devices.

That's me, because when I get home for the day, I don't want to spend hours and hours futzing with and troubleshooting devices. I used to just have a laptop with an wired external mouse and a wifi router, and that was it. I have more now, but I still don't buy a bunch of shit that I don't need.

I am a VP of IT for a major corporation. I have specialized in Data Analytics, fraud analysis, intelligence, and cyber.

  • I do not have a Facebook account.
  • I do not have an Instagram or Snapchat account
  • I do not have a Twitter account (or been dead for years)
  • I do not have an Alexa or Google Home or other device
  • I do not have anything in my home connected to IoT

  • I do not use Google anything (gmail, maps, search, etc)

  • I DO have firewalls and intrusion protection on my routers

  • I DO use a VPN when its necessary
  • I DO use a non tracking browser like Firefox for general use or Brave when more secure
  • I DO use DuckDuckGo for search queries
  • I DO use Discord for communications. and
  • I DO use Reddit as my only Social Media platform

You’re a huge douche

because I protect my privacy (to the extent reasonable) and understand the actual way in which data collected on people is used against them? Because I worked with the Intelligence Community for more than a decade and I know what they are collecting and doing with it?

Ok fine, I'm the douche. You can continue to live in your LA LA Land.

You’re the one living in LA LA land.

All your effort is for nothing.

I don't even own a printer anymore, If I ever need such a thing I have a typewriter in mint condition that a sweet old lady gifted to me around 10 years ago (long story).

I would never put any connected devices on anything but maybe some lamps for the novelty.

Just accept that nothing's private; you are already at the bottom of that slippery slope.

Becareful guys, Genesis is Skynet!

R/gatekeeping

Y

Privacy is dead. Long live comfort at it's expense.

Replaces digital like that takes actual skill to open with cheap mechanical locl that can be opened by any idiot with a chinese lock pick set.... Good choice.

They understand the risk, but clearly not the frequency of occurrence.

My brother is a tech enthusiast. 👌🏻

I knew a administrator at a big plant that would answer his security questions wrong so nobody could recover his account. Like "I was born in Miami County hospital but that's not what I put." What a wild way to go about that.

No, he is aware and knows how people are socially engineered to give out personal i formation.

I am in IT, been in for 15 years. The number of people that get phished or even try to plug in USB drive they "find" is staggering. We have a brick of a laptop to test these on - no wifi enabled, Windows 7, but it is loaded with the ability to see what systems access request happen after things are plugged in.

The only random appliance type thing I've ever needed to connect to the internet, I just took an arduino, wrote a website and made the connection that way.

I think Arduinos are fairly 'new' tech...or maybe I'm getting old. Not sure.

I hate on my wife's iphone all the time because it's always picking up our conversations and then showing her ads. Then she has the nerve to complain about it verbally. I told her not to bring spy cams in the house if she didn't want to be spied on.

People that rely on the ability to talk to machines also terrify me. I have one friend who has dyslexia. He solely speaks to gadgets and his phone because he can't really type with any sort of speed and accuracy. Terrifying.

Okay...unless your entire house is full of "smart" devices, what reason is there to own an Alexa/Google Home? I see literally no point.

Judging from a lot of the comments here, my paranoia over the "gubment" listening in on everything I say are just more confirmed.

My roommate got an Alexa and it gives me serious anxiety

True. Last thing i bought was a mechanical bathroom scales. Im a engineer.

[deleted]

The line is too long and wrapped; it's "no internet connected thermostats.

The internet connection itself is handled a few lines above: "router running OpenWRT"

Wow, can't believe I missed that. I did think the router thing was a bit contradictory for a moment, but clearly didn't follow that thought to its logical conclusion.

Pfft real IT pros use a Honey Pot. r/gatekeeping

Oh and what about the smartphone you're posting this from?

I thought this was /r/ iamverybadass or /r/gatekeeping

This feels more like gatekeeping than humor

r/Gatekeeping r/IAmVeryBadAss

I'm a software engineer, and while I don't exactly trust Alexa, I'm not worried about it because I don't think I'm a target for the people who could use it against me. I trust that Amazon does everything in its power to secure Alexa from outside intruders, but I don't trust them not to leave a back door for themselves.

This all said, all this paranoia regarding home assistants is way too late. For decades, consumers have been using closed-source software on devices with microphones. You ultimately can't trust that stuff. Where's the paranoia around smartphones? Microsoft Windows?

Speaking of closed-source software, I would trust my open-source devices with electronic house locks. Electromagnetic locks sound good, because I wouldn't want to be locked out when my home isn't powered. That means I probably want mechanical locks as well. I trust the security of my open-source devices more than I trust the mechanical security of my pin and tumbler locks.

r/iamverybadass

What damage could an internet-connected thermostat can do?

Security IT: (laughing, as we penetrate your network and control your light switches.) I am a god!

r/iamverysmart

Same with biotech. Drink pesticide = death, spray pesticide on food is ok?

I’m an engineer and I simply find those things novelty bs.

My thermostat is older than I am. It has a single lever, I slide it to a desired temperature, no bells and whistles.

I struggle with tech all day at work. At home I just want to play rdr2 and drink beer.

The people putting that shit in their houses aren't tech enthusiasts. They're normies. Real enthusiasts obey the commands of our lord god Richard Stallman.

Everyone knows the risks involved.

I still want to talk to my smart home.

Why are Americans so obsessed with guns?

Can we please drop the "all software engineers are paranoid luddites in private" line of jokes? Its never been funny and its not remotely true.

Sometimes i feel like the kind of people who post these must feel intensely insecure about their own job performance.

/circlejerk

I have an apple thermostat, why is it bad?

Why are you all so fucking boring though?

Wait, what’s wrong with Internet connected Thermostats? Also why would I need it connected to the internet?

My wife got a google home for a present....... I refused to have that evil thing hooked up. It’s bad enough we have “smart” phones

The more I learn about programming, the more I grow repulsed at the "smart" home device industry. I refuse to believe that Amazon doesn't record everything picked up by Alexa, and even less do I believe the government will stay away from that data.

Long retired programmer here - I said the same about direct deposit when it first became a thing in the 70’s - I did not sign up for it for many years. Wasn’t letting my paycheck be bound up in that program. I knew what could go wrong!

This describes my opinions on smart home tech and I'm only 16

I like this. People who know what I do will ask where my smart watch is or why don't I have Alexa. I tell them I just know too much.

[deleted]

How is this relevant?

Cool, I'll delete it.

This is somewhat true, I work in IT and graduated from college programming. I have an Alexa with firesticks and smart lightbulbs, LOVE it, I don't have the door thing yet (rented apt) but I can't wait til I can. If you own a smartphone your already being tracked etc, so who cares, embrace the technology and have fun with it. Plus being able to say "Alexa Good Night" and have it turn off the light while i'm snug under my covers is something I can no longer live without.

This post is so cringe I wanna die

Currently own the Google home and mini with some smart lights. It's fucking awesome. Have my parents an echo for Christmas and now my dad had the entire house lit up with smart lights, multiple plugs, and a smart thermostat.

Am developer. Will continue to purchase this.

That guy must not be very good at his job. If he was, he would know that the least secure thing in the IoT is his router, and that the other things are perfectly safe. I can pick a lock in around 30 seconds, but even with all my technical experience it would take more effort than that to hack a router. Plus, packet sniffing is no fun.

That’s fine. But how are you going to defeat my ear shattering dollar store “bing bong” alarm that will alert me to your presence?

Gasps I've been defeated!

It != Engineering/ programming, but sure

I DON'T WORK IN IT

AND I DO THE EXACT SAME THING...

AND REMEMBER - THOSE FUCKERS THAT CLAIM SOME OTHER FUCKERS ARE SPYING ON YOU ARE THE EXACT FUCKERS THAT SPY ON YOU THE MOST -- YES APPLE, YES GOOGLE, YES AMAZON, YES FACEBOOK, YES NSA, YES US GOVERNMENT

I've been hoarding my old devices and old OS's so I can have devices that don't spy on me.

stupid post.

Maybe keep a flame thrower nearby too

This might be unrelated question. But do i still get windows update if i am on mars

That's bullshit. You technology as enabler and you will never regret it.

I know people that use VPNs and all sorts of other wonderful things to protect themselves, and I always wonder: protect you from who? You store everything on Google drive, use Chrome, and have your house hooked up to Google assistant. You're probably not vulnerable to a man-in-the-middle attack from hostile state actors...but you are vulnerable to tech giants collecting all your personal information.

I'm like both a programmer and a tech enthusiast only because cool smart tech control thermostat making me go unga bunga.

The most funny one is the smart fridge, which is literally an android phone attached to a fridge with shity speakers xD. Also, why the fuck does the fridge wants me to log into a google account? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Lol, my wife is CONSTANTLY giving me hell for being technophobic and how ”contradictory” it is with me working in tech….

I’m the same

Yeah I’m not gonna let an ai control the locks to my house, I don’t get how people feel comfortable with that.

For real I did a research paper on IoT for school and man are those things really unsafe.

Learning about cosmic rays and single event upsets has made me want to go full jungle book. I at the very least don’t want my car to have any electric components, but I’m pretty sure that’s impossible. Maybe just settle for no chips in the car?

I was working on lan over power and fed an AI with language processing into it, now my electricity talks

I don't get it, can someone explain why?

Non-programmer here - why be against smart tech like that? I certainly think it’s helpful

Do I know the risks? Yes. Does that stop me? No.