Comment on Richard Branson believes the key to success is a three-day workweek. With today's cutting-edge technology, he believes there is no reason people can't work less hours and be equally — if not more — effective.
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r/Futurologyu/Bill_Brasky889 (20974)

I don't know if this is quite it, but something needs to change.

Here in Canada, thousands upon thousands commute 1.5 hours to work every day because we're forced to live far outside the city due to housing being so expensive. We're then expected to put in 9 hours (unpaid lunch), and drive the same 1.5 hours back. That's 12 hours spent devoted to our job every single day, leaving maybe 4 hours per day for personal hygiene, house chores, raising our kids, socializing with our spouse, cooking meals, extracurricular, and relaxation time. Needless to say, something has to go without.

I've recently become laid off due to the bad economy so I've been staying home with my wife and kids. I'm happy. I'm over the moon happy. I play with them all day, we take walks, we talk about things. I can make them healthy delicious meals. I have time to sit down with my wife and actually talk. I've taken up old hobbies. It really feels like THIS is what life is supposed to be, but it's obviously going to be unattainable unless I figure out how to become a millionaire.

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as someone who recently graduated over a year ago, youre right to be worried. once you start working you can kiss hobbies goodbye. hard to have a life when over half of it is spent in an office. im jaded and depressed.

As someone who graduated 3 years ago, I'm getting paid the same amount my father was paid fresh out of school in 1986, while saddled with student loan debt. One day every other weekend I make beer, it's a good hobby whenyou don't have a lot of time because it takes weeks between steps, makes you popular at parties, and ata certain volume is almost cost neutral because you nolonger have to buy beer. That said in the next 5 years I hope I either hit the mega millions or die, working life sucks, I feel like a slave to my debt and cost to live.

Dude. This is awesome that you like to make beer! You already have it made. It's great that you finished your college. Your student loan debt sucks but you don't have to be a slave to it.

Have you thought about exploring beer making more seriously? It's valuable and people love having that around.

I decided to leave my job and everything and live in a community in Spain. Currently, I am on an island on the canaries in the mountain. It is rustic living here and it takes time to adjust (mentally and physically), but I have all the free time and lack of stress to produce things! I am learning how to garden, build houses, and produce my own things. I feel so blessed to escape the system.

Explore the beer making. If you were here right now you could be making beer and exploring other hobbies without the worries you are talking about.

I live on almost nothing and have no hopes to make millions because I don't need it! I'm happy as a clam, which is amazing because I have been battling severe depression for over a year now.

How do you have access to WiFi, other modern amenities?

He's in Europe. I spent something like 20 euro in paris and got 10 gb of the fastest data I've ever had, was able to carry that same data across borders to germany and britain. WiFi and internet are practically cheaper than water in Europe.

I pay 300 a month for data

what the fuck

Will your uncle please help me sue these guys?

Fucking hell, how much data do you get for that?

Well that was including my phone bill. But I pay $160 for like 5mbps download, 1mbps upload

what the fuck

Wow. I pay £12 a month in the UK for 6GB of 4g, and £30 a month for unlimited high speed fibre (max' I get is 30 Mbps down, 10 Mbps up).

AT&T’s business model is bending their customers over and fucking them.

It's just mental. I guess if there are no other options then what are you supposed to do?

Oh man that sucks. Thank science? its cheaper in Europe, I pay about 2 euro for 100gig data.

Yeah I live in a rural town in West Texas, so it’s not too surprising I guess.

Yep. Cell phones/internet are pennies over here compared to back home in Canada. Wife and I are with Vodafone in Spain, we’ve used our phones in Andorra, France and the Netherlands so far with no extra charges. We actually each got “customer appreciation” text messages at the beginning of both July and August saying we have 25 free GB’s to use for that month. Not sure why but....considering we both use about 3 GB’s per month it was overkill. Point being that combined we received 100 GB’s of free cell data this summer and we’ve only been customers for 8 months.

I would assume a cellphone

There is a solar panel that gives us electricity for charging our phones and computers. Otherwise there is no electricity or running water on the property. We have the internet set up and split between 7 or 8 people so it is very cheap and offordable. There are a couple cars here and we use them regularly. I walk everywhere or carpool with the others.

Might have to join ya one day man. Sounds glorious

I have thought about it, the issue is my process produces inconsistent results so even if I figured out a way to get past the financial barriers to entry into the marketplace I'm not confident yet that I can reliably produce a line of beers that are up to my standards. My family is from Sardinia Italy and we have a modest amount of land and I have a dual passport so I could move here forever tomorrow if I wanted to. The idea I'm playing with RN is to wait until I get fired again, go to italy, live in the basement and manage the house my parents have on Airbnb while collecting unemployment for 6 months, then either use the land to start a hops farm, or try to open up a Homebrew store or both. There is 1 hops farm on the island,and no Homebrew stores. If one of those pans out and I work out the kinks in my process I'll start a brewpub where I sell MY beer, source the food from local shepherds and farmers , and call on contacts I have in the Philadelphia restaurant industry to have sous chefs come over and build their resume with an eye opening executive chef opportunity.

Why wait? There are plenty of ways you can make money online--enough to buy food in an inexpensive country like Italy. Then you could be working online as a backup and making beer in your spare time.

Edit: or be an English tutor in Italy

I have that argument with myself all the time. My issue is I don't want to scrape by a living I want to have more control over my life and personal agency. In America I'm more likely to make enough to one day live very comfortably in Italy, in Italy I'm afraid I'll trap myself and my theoretical children to a life with few opportunities.

The "scraping by" is just until you get established. If you're American, you can give that nationality to your kids and they can choose to have the life you're trying out now, but you'll be around to warn them about how you felt about it. If you find out Italy's not for you, you could always go back to the grind.

However, as an American now experiencing the Mediterranean lifestyle, I'd suggest giving it about a 2 year trial period before making a final decision. I don't want to go back. They value life and fun and relaxing here more than production value.

You make it sound so causal but it’s not that simple.

Starting a hops farm or a home brew store would require startup capital. That means loans of some kind. If the farm or store tanks, he would still owe that money. He can’t just skip out on that causally.

I mean I get the appeal of the lifestyle you are describing but it’s kind of insulting to make it sound like all anyone has to do is go and do it like it’s that simple. It’s not that simple because actions have consequences. Plus if everyone went and did that kind of thing... well society just doesn’t work that way

Of course there's risk involved, but the writer made it sound like they were miserable. They say they've got a free house already in Sardinia, so why not try something new?

Sure, you can suffer in a society you hate, try to change it, or escape it. Sounds like OP's not into the first two options, so might as well try. It's just an option I wish someone had thrown out for me sooner, because I was convinced I was stuck in the same position, too, until I found programs that paid for me to get out. u/PuarPWO has a degree and EU nationality, so that's already a super plus when it comes to living and working abroad.

Sounds just like the kid some of us knew who would on holiday after every semester to "recover" and wonders why you dont take their advice and check it out.

If you have a degree and nothing tying you down, it's not hard to leave the States. You've gotta poke around for opportunities a bit, though. "Holiday" meant grandma's house for 19 years. I'm still not rich, but I think it's nice to switch up life a bit.

Or the kid whose parents pay for college and gives them spending money so they don’t get why not everyone has so much free time to play video games

Dude I wish I could play video games. Yeah, things are more chill here, but that means I don't have to worry about that cough that's lasted months that I've been too afraid to go to the doctor for or drowning in student debt. I live here because I work here, and yeah, maybe I should add the disclaimer that it's hard to find work in southern Europe, but that's why I suggested getting by online first.

I definitely get the appeal of it don’t get me wrong.

But fact of the matter is that for ever success story (like yours) there is many many stories that end with disaster

Yeah, I get it. I guess I painted it too rosily. It's up to OP to calculate the risks, and you're right--there are plenty of them. I just know I would have kicked my old, tired ass if I knew I had the opportunity to try to be happier and never took it.

Ya don't leave America. Rest of the world sucks

Haven't been everywhere but there are plenty of parts of Europe I'd like to live in. I've wanted to live in Budapest since I went there for a week and saw how dumb cheap the housing is. But they're having some big drama with the eu today over immigrants and a whole faschist movement so probably not the best time to be an outsider.

Can you list a few of these things you can do online to make extra money?

I've personally looked at teaching English, translating, and ghost writing. Teaching and translating ended up helping me the most.

hmm, interesting. Do you need credentials for teaching English? Who would you be teaching English to, and what were you translating? Can anyone get into this as a side gig?

I went onto a craigslist-type website and advertised my skills, and I got recruited by a few translators with too much work. I get a bit of everything, from advertisements, to manuals, to clickbait... I enjoy it, but the pay is unreliable, different every month. If you're a certified translator, the pay is much better.

For teaching English, normally you need a bachelor's degree in ANYTHING, and a TEFL or TESOL certification is preferred. I'm not certified, but I have experience teaching English as a second language, so that was a bonus for me. There are ways to get these certifications online, and Groupon used to have deals for it, guaranteeing work in China upon completion.

There are also websites that pay you to tutor anything. Do you have a degree? What did you specialize in? (my suggestion of working online was limited to the fact that I knew OP had a degree)

Look on Upwork or other freelance connection websites. Can you write? Draw? Take photos? Program? It's hard to get the first job, but once you build a reputation, people come to you.

Edit: missed part of your question. I worked for a Chinese company teaching mostly children and some adults while I studied a master. There's VIP Kid, Boxfish, and First Future, for you to begin your search. There are a bunch of programs like this.

I'd eat/drink there. Very well thought out! Good luck!!

Cheers to that buddy😀 it'll be on me

Just wanted to say that's not only a really cool idea, but one that might work. Good luck if you ever go for it.

Thanks bud. If you remember this in a few years google hop farm Sardinia and Homebrew Sardinia. If there is a Philly guy running the show that's me. Reach out maybe I'll be able to host you or at least offer a plenty of beer

Good luck, do it for those you leave behind.

Wow that sounds crazy fun. Good luck man

It's terrifying to me, so much work, such high risk. If it pans out great if it doesn't I'll be fucked. Life is scary but I'll know when to strike and hopefully the work itself doesn't kill me

Working on getting my dual citizenship with Italy, and also am a homebrewer. If you get that started and want some help, let me know... That sounds amazing...

Hey add me on snap chat I'll snap you next time I brew. Mcbigduck I won't send you dick pics even if you ask

Having just returned from a two week vacation in Italy, I could undoubtedly say that there is a need for good craft beer there.

There’s this brewery in Milwaukee, called lakefront brewery. The two guys that made it and are still running it love it, and quit their jobs (after they could sustain a livable income from the beer). Going on the tour is an inspiring experience, just seeing what two guys accomplished with passion for a craft. One was an engineer and the other an architect or something. They make good cheese curds there too.

I'll come be your personal servant if you give me beer and a place to live!

I'm not a Lord I don't want servants, I'll help a buddy out with pints and a place to rest his head tho.

It sounds like you have a dream and a goal which is awesome. So many people do not even have a clue of what they would want to do.

Have you thought about making other connects in Sardinia? It is a blessing that you have or could get EU citizenship. You can literally work and live anywhere in Europe!

You can make some sweet connections before you get there and maybe find a place where you can practice hop farming in exchange for accomodation and food. The connections you will make doing this will be priceless.

Yeah I have citizenship in Italy with plenty of family and a place to stay, connections would be great but I'll figure that part as I go along.

I actually landed on the idea of a hops farm after growing my own this year and seeing how easily they grow. That was in Philadelphia which is in one of the best climate zones for hops. Maybe I'll make a trip out there in March to put a few plants in to test the concept. if I can get a few varieties to grow with no supervision I'll feel more confident.

Nice man. You have a great contact system set up, that is huge.

Sounds like a good plan. March is a good time for planting, I can't wait for spring planting.

My best advice is don't put too much pressure on yourself and expectation. You are going to see what happens. If it doesn't work out exactly as you want, no problem! You are exploring a totally new way of life and that takes time.

Let me know how this goes! I will try to remember to check in with you to hear about your project ;)

I love hearing stories like this, but I have to admit I'm always a bit suspicious. I know you said you live on almost nothing, but you must have living expenses and a means to cover them. What do you do for food, water, for electricity, for your internet subscription? How do you buy the items that make your lifestyle possible, like the device you're currently using to access the web, or the equipment needed in order to enjoy recreation? What do you do about medical expenses, housing costs, and transportation both locally and for longer trips to visit relatives? Do you have any debt, and if so, how are you paying it off? Are you putting anything away for the future - planning for the inevitably increased cost of living (if only simply due to medical expenses) toward the end of your life? Not to mention kids... these are the basic costs that people need to deal with, how do you deal with them and earn an income?

Edit: I'm not attacking you, I'm genuinely curious.

I know a couple people who do this and are so happy and love telling people to do the same. They somehow always forget to leave out that their tuition and everything else is paid for by their trust fund. People who’ve never had to work/support themselves don’t always understand why we go to jobs that we hate and make us miserable every. Single. Day.

Not the commenter but making some assumptions:

He mentioned living in a community which makes things cheaper. It’s practically a guarantee that he either never had student loans or just skipped out on them.

A small group in the right place can easily live on the water from a small river and grow their own food. Electricity is cheap if use is kept low and split between a group. Internet is dirt cheap for a group to share if you don’t need it for things like online gaming. I doubt they leave the community much but if they do they share the costs. I think I can safely assume they don’t plan for the future and probably just hope they don’t get sick (which isn’t unreasonable. The kind of lifestyle I’m guessing they live is extremely healthy)

They mention producing things. Stuff like hand carved models, necklaces, other handcrafted stuff etc can sell for decent money on Etsy and eBay. A group doing that can produce a surprising amount in a short time and time is what they have a surplus of.

It would be a totally different life from what you and I would consider “normal”

Cheap for sure but basically just going back to living like ancient times. Other than the internet haha

No pension saving is going to hit them hard in the future. But it sounds attractive.

I love this retirement focus when conventional retirement will be impossible, or irrelevant by 2050

Can you elaborate more on this or point me in the right direction? Came from /r/all and want to learn more.

He's implying that we will either be post scarcity or it will all have fallen apart by 2050.

I guess as myopic as /r/collapse is, its not a bad place to start. The overall mood there is (understandably) pessimistic but the information is hard to deny. The paradigm of infinite growth does not reflect reality, and it's looking more and more like the upcoming batch of Baby Boomer retirements will be the last ones to cross that finish line in a way that resembles the "retirement" we're familiar with.

Buy land up north.

Learn to farm, learn to make and fix anything you can.

Doomsday sayers have existed since early mankind. It doesn't hurt to be prepared financially. I'm afraid of the climate change, and if that turns out to be as catastrophic as some say, then financial preparation will save you more than skill. Even up here in Sweden we had draught and famine in wildlife this summer.

Can you explain how your suddenly worthless fiat currency will save you? I'm very curious to hear your take on collapsing places like Venezuela and how they should have just saved more money and they'd be fine.

Venezuela is a powerless little country that irritated the United States of Ammerrica. More money, means more power, better survivability. It will be true till the end. My family is originally from Somalia where I had more opportunity than many of my people because my parents were well of and had great wits. They acted when money there was still worth something. Even if your nightmare scenario becomes true, I think you'd do well being financially prepared.

People like that probably a) die before retirement matters because their lifestyle means they stay healthy and fit until the aren’t and then they die and b) don’t care either way.

It is definitely attractive. I pay nearly as much or more on my student loans (and some credit card debt) than I do on rent. I’d love to skip out on all of it and live of the land

Why would it if they stay in that community?

probably just hope they don’t get sick

Genuinely curious, why is this an issue anyway? I'm from Australia and we have very reasonable healthcare, and I'm pretty sure most of Europe has better healthcare than we do here. Most health issues should be a quick, free trip to the doctor.

My frame of reference is the US haha. Here a doctors visit without insurance is an arm and a leg

I thought as much, I just wasn't sure if I was missing something about Europe. Either way, I really hope they solve your healthcare issues going forward. The American people deserve better.

Gods me too. The healthcare situation here is disgusting. Especially since we know there are better options looking at other countries

In other comments from a month ago they say that they teach english online.

I am a seasoned traveler and the first thing I learned is that things don't work out the way you want them to or expect. You can prepare for every scenario you can imagine and make the move and then find out this is not what you want to do. Then you will have wasted all this time, energy, and worry on something that never even happened! At some point you have to put aside these worries and be like "this is what I want to do and I am going to make it happen whatever it takes". Then you roll with the bumps and bruises. I had no expectations of my move. I told myself I would take whatever is dished out to me, but as long as I am doing what I am doing 100% with my heart and soul in it, then it is worth it.

I appreciate that mindset. However, I'm still curious to the answers to my above questions... I agree that you can't prepare for every scenario, but some preparation is prudent. Do you work a few odd jobs when funds run low, go adventure for awhile, then grab another job when you need some cash again?

Look, I arrived in the Canary Islands with 300 euros. I had a couple of connections through couch surfing and workaway, but did not know have a clear idea of what to expect. I know how to make my money go along way.

But yes, I am a digital nomad as well. That is definitely worth mentioning. I have my laptop and teach english online to Chinese kids for 20$ an hour. I knew that as long as I found a place with steady internet I would be able to earn money. I have lived already two years in Spain and I am fluent in Spanish and very familiar with the culture and way of life. It is also very cheap living here.

I work 2 hours a day for the chinese company and then give private online classes as well. I make about 600 euros (650 dollars) a month. I don't pay for rent and spend about 120 euros a month on expenses. The rest of the time I am free on a beautiful island in the mountains to do whatever the hell I want. I walk a lot and am getting very fit. Like steep mountain walking for kilometers fit. I hitchhike around the island and take cheap buses to get anywhere. I sleep in caves and on the beach. I eat what is around me, be it dumpstering food, wild food, or whatever.

Spain eh? Are you rich? The safety net in America sucks ass. Hard to just leave a job and go live somewhere off the grid. Especially if you're saddled with 50k+ of student loan debt that CANT be discharged with bankruptcy.

I am definitely not rich in monetary terms, but I am rich in all the aspects of my life that really count!

There is no safety net in the states. It is a make or break it kind of mentality and place. I am very fortunate with my background and that I have no debt. I can not imagine what it is like to have 50k debt.

And what for those of us with debt? Just refuse to pay it back and bail without a trace? It's crossed my mind but it's a decision that could never be taken back and you couldn't go home again.

If you get on an income based repayment plan and don't live in the USA, according to your taxes, you're not making money and your legal repayment requirements are slim to nothing.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying don't pay your debt, just that this takes a lot of the stress off of you.

That's for government loans and not for private loans which most people have.

Ah, true. I figured most people had government loans. Forget me, then.

I do not have any debts so I can not say what is the best. I have known people who have just bailed on their debts. Everyone is in debt anyways and probably never going to pay it off...

Working as a brewer is one of the most difficult and demanding jobs and typically pays very little.

If you love something you will find a way to do it and be willing to make the necessary compromises to make it happen!

Can i join?

If you are a chill person with no drama willing to live in community with others and work towards a better future then yes!

Can I ask what your family background is? Do you have a safety net in case you run out of money? How are you making money currently/what are you living off of?

I have family in France and connections in Spain who I can count on. I am European and have lived in Europe for several years so I am familiar with languages and customs here. I have very little money like 300 euros in my bank account. I teach english online for two hours a day Monday through Friday. I make about 600 euros a month and with this I live so well. I only need 150 euros a month really.

I would honestly love to know more about this, if you ever have the time to send me a message. what did it take to get started? how long have you been there? do the random job/errands provide enough to live comfortably on? what "amenities" are there? (since clearly cell service/wifi/whatever is no problem). how do you get around, what about medical?

You are always going to have problems, bills to pay, hassles. I own very little and discovered on just how little I get by. Most people would not be willing to make the sacrifices I have made, but to me it is immensely worth it. If there is a will there is a way.

I worried about all the things you mentioned before I launched into this. At one point I was just like, eh fuck it, what is the point of worrying about all this? We'll see when it happens.

So far, I have only been rewarded.

I tried the ‘eh fuck it’ mentality and nearly ended up homeless in a place where I knew no one and had nothing. Knowing how much it cost to get a place to live, prepare for a few months, have a little egg, could make it more plausible.

But I understand what you mean.

Damn, that's just about the worst that can happen! I have been homeless and lived on the streets for months of the time in the Bay Area so I understand how hard that is. I am sorry that happened, but hopefully you learned something from it.

Look, I consider myself a seasoned international travel. I have the mindset for traveling: pack light, sleep in uncomfortable places, not always eat every much, showering without weeks at a time. My homeless experience showed me that I am tough and resilient and can make the sacrifices to get where I want.

I know how to make connections online through facebook, couchsurfing, workaway. Now, I know how to find cheap flights, accomodation, contacts in faraway places with the freedom and confidence in my abilities to assure a reasonable chance of success. But there is always always an element of risk.

Oh, and fear is the biggest killer of dreams.

I would like to live like this. It's so hard in the US with no universal healthcare and communal living is more fringe but not impossible to find.

I think that living like this is harder in California, where I am from. That is why I chose to come to Spain. It is tolerated here and sometimes with the enthusiastic support of the community!

Super happy to hear that 🙂 hopefully in the US we can move in that direction.

What do you do to support yourself if you don't mind me asking?

I don't pay rent or utilities except internet and we divide the cost between 8 people. I am learning to grow my own food and eat community meals everyday which really splits up costs. Yesterday all I ate were cactus fruit and raw almonds that are growing around the property. I hiked up a steep mountain and hauled hundreds of logs into a truck. I am hella beat today, but I am feeling stronger with a general uplift in my mood. After a year of debilitating depression this feels amazing!

Sorry for the rant. What I mean to say is that before I looked for ways to make money, I downsized everything. My food, my necessities, conditions I am willing to accept. Do you need a hot shower everyday? Are you willing to go hungry occasionaly? Can you spend a lot of time alone? I made the necessary changes so that I can live the free life I want and not be burdened with money.

I teach english online to chinese kids for about 2 hours and make 40 $ a day. Comes out to 650 dollars month. I live well on150 dollars a month so in my current situation I have 500 dollars a month to do with as I please. I catch rides with people in the community, hitchhike, take cheap buses to get around and dumpster food, eat wild food, or get food from people. Other times I just go hungry.

Living like this makes me realize how resilient I am both physically and mentally. I can go a day without eating while hiking around rugged terrains and then sleep in a cave on the beach on a hard mat. I don't do this endlessly like some people, but I know I can do it and it makes me feel strong.

Awesome! Sounds like you're living the dream, man. Thanks for the thorough response!

could you expand more on your current living situation? How do you make enough money to live, and how did you find out about and join this community?

Yeah! Too be honest I am not sure how we acquired this land. As far as I understand hippies have been living on this unoccupied land for 20 years. There's a communal kitchen and living lounge with electricity and internet powered by solar systems.

I live close by to this area in a tent. I have a nice little patio with couches, tables, closets that I inherited from the hippy who lived there before me. I arrived at the community with my laptop, sandals, and several changes of clothes.

I teach english online to chinese kids for 20$ an hour. I work two hours a day which is 40$ a day. In a month I make 650 dollars or something. My living costs are 150 dollars a month. I am learning to grow my own food and eat food that grows around the land here. My hobbies are all basically free.

That said in the next 5 years I hope I either hit the mega millions or die, working life sucks, I feel like a slave to my debt and cost to live.

That's right where I'm at too my man

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Instead of thinking about switching off completely why not try doing a 180 turn? Shake the bag. I know a lot of middle-age people who age literally blind to the idea about switching lanes in work/profession/life. There are only very few decisions in your life that are actually permanent, and your job/profession is definitely not one of them. You can change it, but only if you really want to. I hope you get happy again!

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You're not alone buddy, so many of use are in the same boat. One thing going for you is you have a wife. Me I live alone. No one to talk to when returning home from my soul crushing job. So I keep everything inside. I have zero motivation to do anything or go anywhere in my free time. I spend most of my weekends laying down. The only thing keeping me from offing myself is my cats. I love them too much and I worry what would happen to them. It used to be that I was looking forward to retirement, but even after 15 years of working in a cubicle, that's still 20-25 years away. I think I'll go nuts before that happens. I'm basically just waiting for my cats to die.

Jesus you guys are making my pizza delivery job with zero debt sound like a blessing. Never felt so good making 8 dollars an hour and working 35 hours a week.

The more money you make, the more bullshit you gotta deal with.

mo' money mo' problems

How do you even get by!? I remember making a bit under $9 an hour in MS and I could barely juggle food, gas, a $180 car note, a phone and maybe the occasional date night. A decent apartment where you might not get robbed is going to be over $500. Maybe you split a place with a friend but still, when you need car repair or get sick, how is anyone supposed to survive off that.

I make more like 20 an hr when you account for tips. I try to save and I have cheap hobbies. Mainly just videogames.

omg i used to deliver pies, loved it, late start, still time to party when off work, and dont have to be up early the next day!! enjoy it my man! you are living in the good old days right now!!

So true. Somehow 40 hours in an office is more soul-crushing than working 2 30 hour each jobs delivering pizza and selling gas. All I ever had to worry about is what I had to do at that moment.

You live with your parents.

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Seriously. If you have Netflix, watch Minimalism: A Documentary About the Important Things. I work in social services because I couldn't stand to work at a soul crushing job, no matter what the pay was. I knew that I needed to be helping others in order to find fulfillment in my work. That is the only way I can do this rat race. But non-profit social work isn't going to make me rich. And I'm ok with that.

I'd happily take a pay cut and work for a non-profit. I would actually come out ahead since my student loans would be forgiven in 10 years with no tax liability.

As a lawyer, those public interest jobs are competitive and very hard to get.

I have similar hobbies. I use them to try to save as much money as I can since that's cheap entertainment. The idea of retiring early is what gets me through the day. Aiming for 45-51 which is about 15-20 years more for me. I can achieve 51 at my current rate if I never get another raise for the rest of my life.

I'll hike or jog for an hour or two after work to relieve stress and have trained myself to get by on 3-5 hours of sleep a night so that I have some personal time.

On a side note, if you need to make good money but need a different job, you might want to look into the trades. I'm actually considering that myseIf.

Dude. I saw a job posting for a plumber and the salary range was $80k-$120k. Now, they wanted 5 years experience (which I don't have), and I suspect the salary is bullshit.

Whenever I see somethign with a salary range too high I assume it is partially commission based or depends upon your getting clients or business yourself, and they always skew that projected range as high as it could every possibly go.

That being said, if I could make $120k as a plumber, I'd quit being a lawyer so fast that there would be nothing but a pair of smoking loafers left under my desk.

$120k for a plumber? That's gotta be for someone who's already up and established, hence the 5 yrs experience. That means you have your own truck, tools, and all the certifications.

You're a contractor so you pay all your expenses. Gas and truck payment, all the insurance (vehicle, health, professional liability), consumables (welding gas, solder, teflon tape), and all the taxes. I bet you bring home half that. Which is fine money, but not a "six figure income".

Hell i got out of college recently and a full time job. I make decent money but honestly I would rather be poor and have free time. I’m planning on quitting and working freelance part time. I’ll either live in a van or somewhere in east asia and work remote. Money is overrated. I would rather be broke and free to hike, rock climb, and explore my hobbies and passions. I think people are too set on owning a house, settling down and having kids. Screw that.

For me, the house is part of the scheme to get out of student loan debt.

I am on income based repayment. I am paying less than the interest accruing each month, so my student loan debt is growing.

I bought the house partly to get out of student loan debt. If I wanted out of my student loan debt in 10 years, I'd have to be paying $2.1k per month.

Where I live, I would also have to pay rent for a place for me and my wife to live, and I doubt I could find a place in a neighborhood where I would be comfortable having my wife live for less than $1,600/$1,700, and that would be with us and our dogs in a one-bedroom.

Instead, I bought the house. Mortgage is $1,900, we get to live in a nice area, we are renting out one room for $500/mo. Since I am on income-based repayment, instead of paying $2,100/mo. I am paying a fraction of that.

In 8-12 years, given average rates of appreciation around here and maybe a 10-20% crash in the housing market in that time period, the house should have enough equity in it to sell and pay off the student loans.

Then I will be completely debt free. I can essentially achieve the same result as if I were just paying the larger payments to be out of debt in 10 years, but we get to live in a nicer place and have enough left over to save every month instead of barely being able to pay for a shitty apartment and the loan payments.

I should come out far ahead financially over where I would have ended up in 10 years if I just paid the loans off as fast as I could.

Living in Asia is fun, but it can take some adjusting. I lived in China for year when I was 20. One of my best friends still lives in Beijing and works remotely.

I think it depends on the job. It’s not unusual for a doctor or lawyer to do 30-40 years of work. But I see where you are coming from. My father switched from being a doctor (17 years) to a lawyer (15 years) and he is still interested in both (he likes the latter more).

More power to him. I hate being a lawyer. Other lawyers are pricks, the clients are pricks, and you are constantly up against deadlines.

I was a medic in the military and I wish I had gone to medical school instead, but I honestly didn't like that much either.

Would you consider going in house? I am still a law student, but I got to be a summer associate at TSMC, and from what I am seeing all my colleagues are unnaturally happy attorneys. They all said that they have a better lifestyle when compared to their time in big law.

Wow what are the chances. I used to be a practicing EMT-I in Texas before going to law school too! Still considering whether I should use my MCAT scores to get an MD after passing my bar.

I'd happily go in-house, but those jobs aren't easy to get.

The primary problem being that most in-house jobs want attorneys with corporate experience, and I have litigation experience.

I wanted to be a transactional attorney. I geared most of my classes toward that. Turned out my only offers were for litigation jobs. So I ended up doing a type of law I never even wanted to do in the first place.

I also am not in biglaw. I am at a small/midsize firm with a great culture, but I make half what my friends who went to biglaw make. The difference is, they are working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, and half days on sunday. I am working maybe 10 hours/day 5 days/week. I would still rather have my job than theirs. I'd have cracked up in a biglaw job.

However, it would be easier to go in-house if I had biglaw on the resume.

I hope you all the best. I nearly had a break down finding just summer jobs. I can’t imagine when your livelihood is on the line when job searching. To be honest, I feel like legal jobs are quite skewed towards predisposed luck aside from grades. People with existing connections are just coasting through in my school and generally having a good time. Thankfully, I already came to terms about this, or else I would still be one unhappy potato.

If I knew then what I know now, I never would have become a lawyer.

I didn't realize it is one of the snobbiest fields in the country. Everything is about where you went to school and your GPA. Being an interesting person or having life experience count for almost nothing (at least out of law school).

Also, almost all law school grades are based entirely on a single final, and the all-important grades for getting the good jobs are the grades from your first year, rather than your second or third years.

So you can have one bad day where you have a head cold or couldn't sleep on the day of an important final or two in your first year of law school, and BAM, you are out of the running for those super high-paying jobs.

Those super high-paying jobs also expect to own you though. They don't pay $165k-180k for a person with no experience because they don't expect you to act like a slave.

I ended up in the top half of my class, but my worst year was my first year (I also had a horrible commute at the time and was spending 15-20 hours per week in teh car commuting to school). Was out of the running for those top jobs, but I also thank my lucky stars because one of those jobs would have broken me already.

The best way to get any job, in any profession, is to know someone on the inside.

That’s what happened to me, but I was lucky to have met an unorthodox hiring counsel at The company.

I really hope you can switch track to a transactional position in the near future. From what I heard it is kind of difficult, and I only have one acquaintance that successfully switched from patent litigation to technology transaction. I sincerely wish you would be the exception like my friend.

Well, I’ll tell you what I did recently. I’m not proud but it was necessary for me to continue living... I was making $150k/yr for roughly 7 years. Horrible job. Car business. Soul crusher. Truly. My wife had a breakdown raising two boys alone(I was at work). She dealt with it by spending ALL our money. Broke. I had a house/2 cars/mountain of CC debt. I suddenly saw everything clearly. I worked all day almost everyday and we had nothing to show for it money wise... or anything wise. So I quit. No job. Mortgage went into forbearance for a year. We paid $25/ month during that time. Then that stopped and I paid nothing. My wife is still in the house 2 years later while we try short selling it. We filed for bankruptcy. I am currently in Denver getting a new job in a different industry and starting our life over. My wife and kids are moving out here when we finally get kicked out of the house... not a good way to handle it but a way none the less. You are not as trapped as you feel is what I’m trying to say.

I actually do bankruptcy work.

Bankruptcy exists for a reason, to give people a chance to start over when things go pear shaped. I don't usually judge the debtors.

The only time when I DO get annoyed at debtors is when you are trying to help them sort their shit out and they refuse to compromise on their quality of life. They are filing for bankruptcy, but oh no, they can't give up their Bentley, their two Harleys, and their huge house.

Well, they can't afford all that anymore, that's the problem. Sacrifices have to be made.

My problem is that my $200k in student loan debt can't be discharged in bankruptcy. I could lose everything else, but that $200k debt would still be there.

Go get a new kitten, please.

You don’t know how precious life truly is. I recently lost one of my closest friends due to suicide. I know it seems hopeless but there is more to live than you might see right now. But enjoy what you can, be open with people, you’ll find your way, we all will.

Well, I hope so. I'm truly hoping for a change, badly. I've been depressed twice before in my life, so I know I might eventually pull through, but it's still hard. With zero motivation, it's hard to change things. Thanks for the kind words tough, it helps.

Feel free to reach out to me if you ever need it. I’m here to help.

I make about 40k a year with OT. I have 90k saved atm and am saving 18-19k a year in retirement funds. I can't afford to do very much. My food budget is $50 a month(I don't eat out) and I rent a tiny place that isn't maintained that well, but I do it so that I can retire early. No TV, cheap internet, minimal money spent on entertainment...my biggest monthly expense after rent is my cat's renal diet since he's old and has weak kidneys. Worst case scenario, I retire when I'm 51. I'd like to be able to retire in my 40s though. I save every penny I can to be able to try to reach this goal.

If you have enough saved up, you can tap into your 401k early without penalty via 72t distributions. The catch is that you're locked in once you start them and have to take distributions based off of one of 3 government mandated formulas.

Shit man, if you ever need someone to talk to... I'm an asshole but at least I'm open to you if you need. FFS this hurts to read my man. Stay strong.

i miss having a partner so much, even if it was horrible and abusive it's so much better than just, the anguish of having to be in contact with yr own mind and having to live for yourself - now i don't remember how to relate to ppl anymore and just kinda keep moving because i have to or else i'll end up completely broken and stuck waiting to die

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i work 40 to 50 hours a week across two jobs and on the two days a week i'm not working i'm in classes full time, and that takes up that whole day. what time that's left that isn't taken up by commuting, studying, studying while commuting, therapy, and exercise i'm exhausted and wary to take on any more. class is okay, and work isn't so bad, but i really struggle to actualize anything... it's getting easier, and the work soothes the sense that i'm not doing enough, but yeah...

If it makes you feel better, there are about 100,000 15yr old youtubers in America alone who pull in 6 figures and already own houses and cars before they can legally drive

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If it makes you feel any better, there are tons of kids on instagram making 6 figures taking pictures amd getting paid to travel. All of them younger and more successful than 99.9% of the people on this thread.

I’m with you dude. I recently took a job with the Feds. I could retire from the feds with a pension at 60 but that’s in 27 f’n years. Even longer probably in a private sector job. Before I took the fed job I thought to myself “at least I can retire then with a pension. Something my parents couldn’t do” but now it seems so far away and I hate what I do and I just can’t see myself lasting that long at one place/job. There is always somewhere to transfer to, but you never know..

Everyone wants money so they don’t have to work and do what they want in life. In order to do (outside of winning the lottery or some inheritance) you have to work for it and, for most people, work a lot. Ugh, I don’t like this simulation.

Fuck guys Im 26, started my own painting business in AZ. Work for myself by myself. I make 30-60 n hr depending on the gig, make my own schedule. I'd say I work about 2 weeks out of the month, make 40k a year.. But I'm just getting started so more soon. Have zero debt, dope ass condo right next to ASU, all the time to go to gym and yoga and blaze blunts all day. Find a niche and go to work for yourself guys.

Travel. Use as much vacation time every year and GO somewhere. Start small, if you need to. Out-of-state first, then maybe across country. If you're from the US, go to Hawaii, then Alaska. That's 4 trips so far. Have THAT be the drive you. If I wasn't a single parent, I'd be traveling every chance I'd get.

i'm crying at work reading this. i don't want this to be my life forever until i die, i've been so sad up till now too, what would have been the point of me being alive?

things feel kinda up lately, i've been working my ass off for a year, and i guess i'm better than i was before, but now i'm taking on student loan debts? and my car actually works now? i'm putting myself through school full time and working full time, while recovering from surgery and some pretty shitty stuff in my uh life as it exists outside of those other things.

Honestly, just don't become a lawyer. I could do a lot of things I think and not hate it this much. I am just stuck because becomnig a lawyer was so effing expensive that now I can't afford to be much of anything other than a lawyer.

I understand that you situation is.. well it's fucked, but you've obviously found a solution that dodges the problems you are trying to avoid. It might be a long-term solution but it's the end to your tunnel. This is where you get a hobby, something to take you away from boring shit in your life. You won't get rid of small-minded selfish people unless you go completely Unabomber style and move into a hut in the forest. IMHO you should maybe see your situation as a hard but finite grind to get a comfortable life, you were just unfortunate to be born in America. But, you own a car, a house and have a wife, an education and a destination in life. Would you rather be without? Hang in there!

I have hobbies. It just isn't enough.

I have a very stressful job. It pays a lot, but we are usually front-runners in the race to the top for most deaths by substance abuse and suicide.

Brother long route for me here too. Angry, sad whole time. Cursed under my breath every day dozens of times at the general angst of existing. Couldn't finish projects.

Try eating nothing but steak + eggs for two weeks. Most of your psych problems tie to shit immune problems in the gut. Seriously. Ultimate elimination diet will make you strong + positive, then deal with the life shit.

meatheals.com

Haven't cursed under my breath like I used to in months (desk work remains as shitty but life seems better). Was able to finish my immunology PhD, getting a job where I might get to prove the above effect is real. Try it out. What do you have to lose?

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Therapy costs money.

My hobbies are writing, playing video games, and used to be riding horses. I work out every morning before work for about an hour to an hour and a half.

My job's hours aren't that ridiculous, certainly not for a lawyer. I do have time for some things. I don't have the money. Every spare cent goes into savings.

Since I wasn't able to start saving for retirement until I was almost 36, I need to save about 25% of my annual income for retirement. I always have to pay almost all of the household expenses because my wife makes very little.

It's more a matter of money than time (though I do work about 50 hours per week).

I have seen what happens when you don't save for retirement firsthand. My mom and all three of her brothers failed to save.

Social security is not enough for retirement. If you aren't saving, you are pretty much doomed. This country has almost nothing in terms of a social safety net.

I am doing my fucking level best to penny pinch and save every penny, but unless something changes pretty substantially over the course of my life, my wife and I will take a substantial hit to our quality of life in retirement because I wasn't able to start saving until I was so old.

So it looks like it never gets better guess. Currently 25 a year into office job (previous job was travel) and I'm having such a hard time realizing this is basically what my life is for the next 40 some years. I hate that with my commute and work i only have 4 free hours a day if i want 8 hrs of sleep not even accounting for shit i dont want to do like clean/errands etc.

Luckily i have no debt and wife's student loans are very small. But she wants to go back to school and get a masters so its not like I'll get a break from working anytime soon. She'll should be making a bunch of money once she graduates and I always joke that ill become a stay at home dad but god i hope I could do that. I don't even really want kids but if i dont have to work anymore hell yeah. Well this will probably not be read by anyone good luck out there fellow people slowly working our lifes away. Fuck the man!

I would sever my left testicle with a plastic butter knife to be able to be a stay-at-home dad. Unfortunately, I will always make a lot more than my wife.

Why would you have to file for bankruptcy if your debt was forgiven?

When you work in the private sector and make on-time payments for 20-25 years (depending on the specific income-based repayment plan you are on) your debt gets forgiven, but the forgiven debt is treated as taxable income.

So take my $200k in student loan debt. If I made very little during my life, it is possible that, based on my income, my monthly student loan payments would be $0 per month. However, at 5.89% interest, after 20 years of negative amortization (debt growing because you are not paying off the accrued interest) my $200k debt would have grown to $628k in student debt (assuming I paid $0/mo. for 20 years due to living my "best life" but making no money).

All $628k of that debt would be forgiven at the 20-year mark, but it would be treated as taxable income. That would land me in what is currently the highest tax bracket (if you are married filing jointly), is 37% and kicks in at 500k.

My total income taxes on that $628k (if we had no other income that year, so in reality this number would be slightly higher) under the current tax scheme would $250,000.

I obviously would not be able to pay that $250,000 in taxes. I would have to file or bankruptcy to discharge the debt to the IRS.

If you have Netflix, watch Minimalism: A Documentary About the Important Things. It may be what you are looking for. It definitely spoke to me. Stay up, it can suck big time, but life can still be good.

Why don't you work someplace where you can lower your cost of living? Like as a forest ranger, or a farmhand?

I shit you not, I was looking up listings for forest ranger jobs today.

Their pay scale MAXES OUT at about 30% what I am making now, and all of the job listings were temporary/seasonal. I could make it work if they were full time. I'd have to sell my house and probably the cars and move, but as a public employee I'd get public service student loan forgiveness and not owe taxes, be out of debt in 10 years.

Thing is, I need a permanent, full-time job.

Sounds like the person is aware. They just did that...after ten years of blue collar work they went into white collar work. Sounds like there’s a lot of pressure from within that we all deal with, to provide stability and comfort for a family. Not many people are willing to ask their family to accept less. People just sacrifice and continue to suffer in order to maintain the highest standard of living. That new standard becomes the baseline for your dependents. If it was just a solo person, I think they’d be shaking the bag backward.

I went to see my doctor once and he had a new resident with him who was well past middle age. He'd been a nuclear engineer for a few decades and wanted to change things up.

Damn man. That hits home. I'm currently at my 10 years in the blue collar field and am desperately looking to college to see if more money would be the answer to cure the miserable life style.

Don't do it, it's a trap. Unless you can afford to pay for school out of pocket, the student loan debt isn't worth the small amount of extra income

100 this.

Your better off paying for and taking classes one at a time out of pocket while you work. One class... two classes... whatever you can juggle. That AA may take 3 years, but once it’s on the wall and you have zero debt... hard to argue otherwise.

I feel you. I've been with my masters degree for 2 years now and haven't been able to get a better job. I don't absolutely hate my job, since it's what I went to school for, but it's gotten so monotonous with no possibility of promotion it's driving me insane. I come in, do the same thing day in and day out, go home and try to decompress the stress of sitting in a closed office all day while rarely moving from my desk. I feel like not only is it constantly bringing down my mood, but also destroying my health because I move from a chair all day

Those are clear signs of burnout if not downright depression, please seek help, do not take these feelings lightly or try to man it up. I had those exact same feelings and ended up in full burnout, took me around a year to recover, only because I felt that I shouldn't complain, I had bought a house, a job that many people wanted and a bright outlook for my career. So I had to take responsibility and not fuck it up because I had negative feelings, just be a man.

The hopelessness really is a state of mind, and many others have been in your boat, and can relate to how horrible you might feel atm, please realize that.

Thanks. I am trying. I talk to my wife about it. I am trying to actively look for other prospects, but I am having zero luck so far.

Hang in there, it's good that you can talk with your wife about it, mine saved my life in that sense. I experienced the same as you, that hopelessness, feeling like you're to blame, that you'll never get out of this mess. I mean it's true that you are in a mess but that's okay, it happens to (literally) the best of us. I'm still in debt too, I have no idea where my career will go and I'm nearing the end of my contract. But I'm comfortable with it. I no longer wish for a car to strike me on my way to work and I regained my sense of wonder and value for the moments I share with my loved ones. I wish you all the best, and hope you may find that same perspective too. Also, since you're whit collar now, try to find out if there are any social benefits you can rely on. I'm in a competitive industry so my boss was certainly not new to this and they had very good systems in place to help me flhelp myself.

This is one of the only comments I've ever truly felt within my being. I worked my ass off to get to an officer level position in my company. After a little over a year in it, I wish I was back at entry level or even unemployed. I feel the further in my 30s I go, the more my happiness dies.

I’m sorry :( I feel similarly. I’m sure your wife would be devastated, though- is that something you can rekindle to help your happiness?

Nothing to rekindle. My wife is amazing. She's just about the only thing that keeps me going. The thing is, the couple of hours I get to see her at night and the one day off we have together on the weekend is not enough to make up for spending the majority of my life being totally miserable.

That makes sense, I have an amazing boyfriend too but that doesn’t solve everything, I’m still sad. Is a career change at all possible? Or at least a change in office culture? That’s what I think I need right now, as the only thing that could help to improve the situation

Edit: saw you’ve tried. Have you tried therapy/professional help?

My office is great. My co-workers are nice.

I am a lawyer. It is other lawyers, insane clients, and constant deadlines that make it awful.

I would love a career change, but I can't really afford to make less than I do now because I have $200k in student loan debt.

Now keep in mind, that is $200k in student loan debt even though I paid $0 in tuition in undergrad because I am a veteran (Iraq sucks), and I had scholarship and grants covering 30% of the cost of law school.

I even worked part time in undergrad. However, I wanted to stay near family, and I was already with my wife (but not married yet) when I started undergrad, so I had to borrow just to cover cost of living since I live in an expensive state.

In hindsight, I wish I had just moved to Idaho or something.

So the problem is, my office has just about the best office culture of any law firm I have ever seen, Going to another firm would probably only make things worse. It's not hte office, it's the work itself.

But I don't know what to do or what job I could swtich to and still make ends meet.

It's not like I am living in luxury either. My house barely costs more per month than I would be paying in rent anyway, and we bought inexpensive, economical cars. I didn't want the cars either, but I was trying to avoid lifestyle inflation so hard that my wife ended up driving a car that was breaking down too often and not safe, so I had to upgrade.

We even put a roommate in one room of the house to enable us to keep saving as much as possible.

I think of every dollar as units of misery now, because that is how I got them, so I lose my fucking mind when people leave lights on in empty rooms or take extra-long showers, because it means I will have to spend another half hour or hour of my life in this job.

I’m sorry:( that’s good the office culture is above average. I’m not a lawyer, but if I were to say what makes me miserable at my job, it’s also the annoying clients and intense deadlines. I’ve been told I need to speak up more proactively to communicate my workloads to my managers when I can’t finish projects within a reasonable time. Of course, sometimes things are inflexible, but I’m going to try to get better at that.

Is a manager talk potentially helpful? If you can’t get off your current client, can you take on a mini project that you’re actually interested in?

Though counterintuitive, sometimes I find that even if I had a terrible day and hated my job, if I got to spend 10 minutes doing the personal writing I liked, then it was a better day. It doesn’t happen that often, but sometimes it helps.

Therapy costs money.

Look up FIRE

So, if I were able to convince my wife to live like 18-year-old paupers (she won't want to and it would make her miserable), I make enough that I could retire early. The problem is, I can't do that because I have $200k in student loan debt.

Don't live like pauper, just continue to aggressively pay down debt and save. Let early retirement with dignity be when you want it to be whether that is at age 40 or 55.

Early retirement isn't on the horizon. I wasn't able to start saving until I was 36, and I am doing all teh saving for both me and my wife. I don't have high enough income, low enough expenses, or a long enough investment horizon to retire early.

Well, keep up paying down debt and at least aim for normal retirement with dignity. Remember, often times income increases with age.

why won't you go back to your old job? big house and fancy car don't make sense if you miserable all the time.

Well, a few reasons. My old job was a young man's job. You can only fall off of horses so many times before your body gives out. I already have one serious, life-long injury from it, and it paid peanuts. Like, I couldn't even afford a one-room apartment.

It also isn't a big house or fancy cars.

It's a modest house and economical cars. The house barely costs more per month than I would have to pay in rent anyway, and the cars are about as far from luxury cars as you can get. I get mocked (in a friendly way) at work about what a massive tightwad I am because I am trying to save every penny I can.

We never go on vacation. We never do anything really. All we do is save and pay for necessities.

keep your eyes and ears open. there lots of other ways to make money. good luck

Your story reminds me of "The Fisherman", a story in Matthew Kelly's "The Rhythm of Life" . It's pretty legnthy if I were to copy and paste so here's a link. https://philipchircop.wordpress.com/tag/matthew-kelly/ In actuality it's just a short story of 2 book pages.

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It really brings things into perspective and I thank you for sharing your story of how that level of success being on top is. I'm also reading , "The Millionaire Next Door: The Surprising Secrets of America's Wealthy " by Thomas J. Stanley and it shares a lot of insight on how even blue collar workers can accumulate even more wealth than their high status white collar workers are able to accumulate (or lack thereof).

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I'm considering going back to school for my Master's, and while the extra money would be nice, my purpose isn't exactly the money, but I'm also weighting the pro's and cons regarding student debt.

Damn dude that is legitimate depression.

Jeez. I work at a desk and I don't experience this kind of stress at all. You need to make a change, bud! Whatever your job is, it can't be worth killing yourself over.

Lawyer. Parents, don't let your kids go to law school.

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My life is pretty simple.Very simple actually.

My work isn’t.

The biggest of moods

Same, I got a social sciences degree and didn't quite realize how expensive it would be. 100k later and $900 a month payments and it is a huge burden. I would take the credit hit of bankruptcy in a second so I could afford an apartment and save money

Live somewhere affordable? I was living in one of the bigger cities in the US for several years shoveling money away. I recently took a job in a smaller town in the mountains. Job pays more, rent is less, there is a lot to do here for me because I'm into outdoor stuff. My clout levels may be lower because I can't say I'm from (cool city) but life is easier.

I started working right as my dad retired. Paraphrasing slightly but he basically told me "strap the fuck in for the next 40-50 years, bucko". Yay.

But feminists told me that working all day every day until you die and not ~~getting~~ having to raise your kids is male privilege...

The problem is if you truly want to be a millionaire and not have to worry you will have to go above and beyond in the field you choose. Everybody is putting in 8-9h a day at work, if you want to be special you either have to build your own business on the side (so after work and on the weekend) or really shine in your job and put in 10h+ a day and keep on learning and improving as much as you can.

Either option leaves you even more isolated, alone and fucked up and if you already dont like the grind you likely dont have it in you to go that far. You might not like to hear it but if you arent ready to make that sacrifice all you can hope for is basically winning the lottery. Even if you have a million dollar idea it will be a long and rough road to make it into a worthwhile business...

You are entirely correct. Why are we making what our parents made or worse coming out of COLLEGE OR UNIVERSITY? Inflation alone should have corrected for this but if I'm not mistaken we are living in an era where the average executive salary is 74 times the average worker of a company now vs in the early 80's when the disparity was far less, around 20 times as much (Trying to remember a Bernie Sanders quote here). They wonder why we are depressed.

It's gonna get worse too as they age and retire even more. That's when they will really claw back to support their ailing health.

People joke about another Bastille Day.

The disparity in wages is sickening. CEOs that collect hundreds of millions in salary while workers at all levels of that company require fucking welfare to live...they really are asking for another Bastille Day. It’s disgusting and frankly inhibits societal progress.

they really are asking for another Bastille Day. It’s disgusting and frankly inhibits societal progress.

Damn right. Imagine what humanity could be like if we can rid ourselves of these shackles. We are wasting entire generations of innovation and brilliance because we are working bull shit lives all due to brutal inequalities.

How do we free ourselves?

According to reddit user words: Violent revolution.

According to reddit user actions: Armchair petitioning and posts to Facebook.

Actually my comment was in regards to what this post is about: a frustrated citizen stepping up and running for local office. So kind of the opposite of what you said.

Well, this thread is deep enough that I'm jumping around trying to see where it mentions:

a frustrated citizen stepping up and running for local office

I mean, that I could get behind, but I don't see where it was discussed in this thread. I often see people post about "I'm running for office AMA!" but they're seldom just the average redditor making a concerted effort.

Granted, that's based on my reading of reddit, so it's always possible I've missed something.

I hate to say it but likely violence. Reason doesn't seem to work and their aren't any instances thay I can think of where a transfer of power like this that wasn't propelled atleast initially by it.

Please note I am not condoning violence. I see it as inevitable.

You think the wage disparity is a problem? How about the gap between civilian and military technology? Never been greater. I can't see anything ahead but a massacre for what you are proposing.

Interesting to me that you went straight to violence or revolution there. All these trolls on Reddit trying to seed the crowd with ideas of revolution lately.

You totally skipped what worked before: strikes. Unions. Worker solidarity. Nonviolent (largely) walkouts. Rallies. The violence generally came from the owners, people certainly died. But violence was not the tool of the working man.

How feasible do you think striking and walkouts are these days? The tech gap is huge, you're right on all points really, but there is such a deeply entrenched anti union sentiment these days.

Even amongst workers it's hard to get people's thinking to come around to the point where they independently assess themselves as being shafted. I feel like we have a lot of ground to recover ideologically before our collective asses get to the bargaining table again.

There's solidarity in terms of people's perceptions of the best they can hope for and what they can expect from their employment. That's a starting point. I agree, the anti-union sentiment is disheartening -- but relatively recent. There are blue-collar Repubs working in Union jobs now so some still know the value of the unions, and these are Rust Belt people, who made a difference in the last election. White collar workers know that the only way to get raises is to continually switch companies every 2-3 years, so they know the value of their labor and they're already taking their ball and leaving with it to ensure they get what their worth.

That's a good question. I'm not sure we're anywhere near the levels that ushered in Unions. There hasn't been such disparity in wealth distribution since the last Gilded Age, but we just got to that point in the last few years. Let's see what our new robber barons next moves are and see how much backlash they create. Trump is their guy, and while he's been a bull in a China shop, from what he's done up til now, the plan is more of the same: the idea that something deserved, a birthright, is being stolen from real Americans, and less-American Americans and immigrants are to blame, not the rich guys screwing them. But interesting to me that there is the acknowledgment that something of value is being stolen in this narrative.

So to answer your question as to how feasible...could be, depending. People are more connected and informed, but there's more disinformation and less secrecy to plan things like walkouts or strikes. What do you think? I'm more hopeful than others maybe, but I have faith in the pendulum effect so when it gets worse I become more hopeful.

I didn't skip these things in my life and I don't want violence. I'm a combat vet who has seen the destruction of civility and civilization in cities. It's terrible and we would be worse off for it.

Certainly let's keep at organising unions and protests, but to be truthful I haven't seen it make any difference and I'm a student of history so I see violence as a probable outcome.

I think this might be a cognitive distortion. Is it possible that your military background is what makes you more likely to believe that violence is the sole solution? I mean this with no disrespect.

I think that when it comes to battling powerful institutions, what actually has to be given up is legality, not nonviolence. Subtle but important distinction.

Edit: Unions and strikes were an amazing success story. Idk what you mean? You might really enjoy checking it out. Inspiring stuff.

You are correct in stating that my military time does skew me towards violence as an outcome but so does history. I believe a massive sea change is necessary and that almost always is begun by revolution.

In terms of North America unions are next to pointless except for a few key industry and essential services. Often times even attempting to unionize is grounds for dismissal. But hell, prove me wrong, I would welcome a fresh and more informed perspective.

You totally skipped what worked before: strikes. Unions. Worker solidarity. Nonviolent (largely) walkouts. Rallies. The violence generally came from the owners, people certainly died. But violence was not the tool of the working man.

That's the America I fought for. We have the tools, no one is using them effectively.

True, but they often worked in contrast to those who protested violently. For every MLKjr and peacefully established Union, there's a Malcom X and Teamsters group unafraid to crack skulls.

It usually takes a few violent ones to get the point across followed by peaceful ones to regain empathy after.

Or we could go the route of running for local offices. Change the system from within.

Edit: lol downvoted for this. I’m so sorry actually doing work instead of jumping to violence is distasteful for you.

I think your idea has alot of merit. Combating an evil as this pervasive will take many approaches. Wars fought on multiple fronts are hard to defend. They are also hard to press so we need to stop with divisiveness.

You're being downvoted because to make a statement like that requires a complete ignorance of history. Capitalists have gone to extreme lengths to hold their power and stop people from making their lives better. Genocide, death squads, assassinations, overthrowing governments. USA Capitalists funded Chile death squads to overthrow a democratically elected government, many atrocities like throwing pregnant women from helicopters into the ocean.

And if we strike back through violence instead of through helpful means that enacts actual law (like running for local office) and the violence ends up in their favor...where does that leave us?

Not only will we have sold our collective “soul” but in the end we lost anyway because we were too eager to stoop to their level. Violence is too short sighted.

You can't change the system from within the system. Voting has got us where we are. Executives making 200 to 400 times more than actual workers. Americans literally murdered and genocided people who voted for a socialist government. Think about man.

But again...what happens when they defeat us through violence? We will be even worse off than before. Government officials are for the most part pretty fucking old. Getting progressive thinking younger people in government positions is the answer. If we do this intelligently, there will be no need for violence. The last thing we need to do is resort to violence.

The government is run by corporations under capitalism. You can't separate the two. Politicians are placeholders, waiting for them to die off of old age is fruitless. The immortal corporations can just use their capital to put their own agent in or buy whoever gets in. Again, Americans murdered people who voted democratically for a fairer government.

Ok, so what’s your well thought out solution? Just kill everyone? What system of government do you propose takes the place of the democratic republic? Saying corporations are evil and ranting about how violence is the answer doesn’t help anyone. What’s your plan?

Just because I know the problem doesn't mean I know the solution. Voting doesn't help anyone from what I can tell either, at least I'm pointing out different views.

I am trying to understand your views and get perspective on what you think will happen in these different scenarios. I welcome differing views but the need to be well reasoned. You’ve explained to my understanding your views on the problem but have neglected to even mention a concrete goal. It’s like drawing water from a stone trying to get more info that is conducive to discussion.

Regarding voting, I’m just gonna have to disagree with you there. Just because election reform is needed doesn’t mean voting doesn’t matter. We can fix gerrymandering. We can update the numbers in the electoral college to better represent citizens. We can mobilize citizens to not only vote, but to be well-informed voters. We’ve got the majority of the population who know progress is the only way to improve everyone’s lives, not just their own. Voting isn’t just a Constitutional Right...it’s your duty as a citizen to engage with government. We have the problems in part because of political apathy, like yours.

What about this approach do you disagree with? Do you have a different approach to fix these problems? Just saying something legitimately incorrect such as voting doesn’t matter ultimately helps conservative and further right wing interests because their base always votes. Why? Because their base is very specific and can continually be pandered to: old people, Evangelicals, and other religious right groups make up the majority of their base. Religious leaders also help prod their flock to vote in conservative interest.

If you are not a member of those groups I mentioned and you don’t vote you do nothing but help them. I don’t understand how anyone can think not voting is a good idea. Can you explain this from your perspective?

yeah it worked for the slaves

You're getting downvoted because the person you responded to is right. Massive transfers of power don't happen without violence or the threat of violence. Running for local offices just plays into the systems that those in power have built up to keep you complacent and unable to effect change in the first place.

So are you an anarchist? Because what you are describing is essentially anarchy. Seems pretty counter to a democratic republic, doesn’t it?

I don't know where you're getting anarchy from. I'm saying successful revolutions have been backed by violence throughout history. Those revolutions didn't result in anarchy. Hell, one of them resulted in the formation of the US. Those revolutions necessarily ignored the systems put in place by the corrupt ruling party because of that corruption. If we're starting from a position of "the government is corrupt," how can you expect to possibly make any progress by following the government's channels of effecting change?

If running for office is playing into a system that is according to you doomed to fail because of inherent flaws what sort of system of government are you proposing? That’s where I get anarchy from. You are thumbing your nose at a system that works really well...when you remove corruption. Why completely break something when an infusion of young minds and lobbying reform will fix the problem?

You are thumbing your nose at a system that works really well... when you remove corruption

You realize you're posting this sentence in a thread about how terribly the system is currently working for the average person, right? If it were that easy to remove corruption, why is it getting worse and not better?

And I still don't understand why you think that I'm an anarchist just because I haven't proposed a post-revolution governmental system. Every revolution throughout history has resulted in a new government, not complete anarchy. Why would this time be any different?

according to you doomed to fail because of inherent flaws

I never said anything like this.

Why not just embrace free-market capitalism? If you don’t like your job or are unhappy with your earnings, create a plan to become financially independent doing something that you enjoy. What exactly would violence solve in the long-term?

Well maybe everything, perhaps nothing. Your proposal of a creating a sound plan is a nice one but ultimately it is out of your hands once put into motion. Not to bore you but my business is being crushed by rich people entering the market as a hobby. That's not something one right into a prospective. The idea that it's really a free market is total bullshit.

Ideally? Mass organization and demanding social change that ensures the gains we've made in productivity benefit us all.

Realistically? It will take violent revolution.

Most likely? The police, military, intelligence apparatus and other class traitors will keep stomping on the faces of other workers until they too are automated.

Organize in the workplace. That is the best course you can take to give you more bargaining power against your boss. Your boss can fire individuals, but a whole workforce or factory is hard especially when you use those employees to train new ones.

First course of action is to talk with you coworkers. If you share the same shift or job, you more than likely get the same pay and experience the same pains of the job. Talk about wages, it isn't illegal to do. And do it with all of your coworkers you can trust. If you get snitched on, you will be fired but you placed the seed of doubt in your coworkers so they can start agitating too. Cappies call this "salting", so salt away as its better than working silently and getting laid off or fired anyways.

Find your area's local socialist group and join. Start educating yourself and the people around you. We hold all of the power, but we have to band together to wield it. Things are not going to change by themselves. In other words... fight the class war, don't just sit around and be a victim.

Preferably a .40 caliber or higher to the temple

Not only are we slaves to the ruling class, payed like robots to “cover our functioning costs” (if that), but we allow the antiquated industries of power to control our world and disrupt any up and coming alternatives. The oil companies disrupting solar energy comes to mind. We could truly have a utopia on this planet if we had real leadership and allocated resources properly, rather than playing this game of spin the hamster wheel or die while our owner collects what our labor earns them.

Imagine all the lives wasted manufacturing and marketing piece of shit children's toys that aren't necessary, like dolls that pee.

Damn right. Imagine what humanity could be like if we can rid ourselves of these shackles.

Well, the French Revolution eventually turned into a nightmare. After they executed the nobles, the country devolved into a civil war and the masses turned on each other and the varying factions vying for power started executing people and faction killings in the tens of thousands during the "Reign of Terror." This resulted in many years of instability, eventually resulting in the rise of an authoritarian oligarchy, which was then overthrown by Napoleon, who then turned the country into an authoritarian empire with him as emperor.

So the end product of that violent revolution against the monarchy was the rise of another authoritarian monarch who reverted the country back to a monarchy after rising to power on populist sentiment. Ultimately, the country was probably worse off in the long run.

i'm not sure i could or want to survive any alternative to us having another bastille day, society is hellish and only getting worse

Fair, I certainly don't want an apocalyptic situation. Would you rather experience the remainder of your life under our current conditions or fight for something more equitable?

like i said, the way things are going just isn't tenable for me, i'm not sure i'll have long to live if i keep up at my current pace.

Given the acceleration of things getting worse with regards to the chasm between the ownership class and the working zombies, things may change in as little as a generation. Here in the U.S., I expect the next strike in the war to be a political two front attack on workers rights and working poor government support programs.

If you think it’s tough on you, what do you think it will be like for your kids. More college debt, unaffordable housing, higher taxes, fewer good paying jobs, and a richer boss... The real fight should be for their sakes.

Everything I do is to fight for a better future for them.

More equitable? If it's anything like the storming of Bastille you get a reign of terror and an upstart general proclaiming himself emperor and starting a global war.

The idea is when productivity goes up it frees up money to pay larger salaries. Makes sense, spreadsheets meant one worker could do the jobs of four workers in less time.

But the money saved by increased productivity wasn't shared with workers, only the execs were rewarded for cutting costs by riding the tech wave.

I'm shocked people still believe decreasing taxes will mean more workers are hired for higher pay. I've never worked anywhere where management said 'We have so much business we need to hire more workers, but we can't hire any more because taxes are so high. If we had a tax break we wouldn't pocket the difference, we would pay our workers more.'

Yet every election we hear the argument we should cut taxes on the wealthy so they'll share it (trickle down baby!) instead of cutting taxes on workers. Us workers would spend it and it would end up in the pockets of those with capital, but the rich get richer because the poor have shitty lobbyists.

Our wage growth has stagnated in Australia too. I think it's part not being taught to ask for more and when you finally build up the courage to ask for more. The boss says no, not in our budget. What are your options ? Enter the job market again or suck it up. You can try and lie say you've been offered another job, hope the the boss matches and doesnt call your bluff. .. it seems everyone is disposable these days though because everyone is desperate to fill your shoes. If you unionised and demand more, go on strike, your demonised through the media. So really you just sit down and shut up, because even if you haven't got a raise in 5years and get rave reviews, you got bills to pay and you don't want to jeopardize that for the sake of a 3% raise.

As much as I can appreciate your perspective, there are much larger and further reaching issues keeping wages down vs inflation. Someone else mentioned it somewhere ITT so I’ll paraphrase the problem. The effect automation has had on increasing production with less “people” labor has led to increasing profits for the corporation. Instead of adjusting wages internally for all workers, they pay out bonuses to upper management. This just keeps happening at a higher rate and the bonuses become more fucking absurd as automation starts to take over more and more jobs.

This is why I will support pretty much any candidate for office that supports universal basic income and Medicare for all.

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People need to be more than a resource allocation. I know, I know the reality of our situation kinda requires that. Instead treat them as people. You can have fully functioning capitalism AND treat employees like people by fairly compensating them, providing other benefits to further improve their lives. Work life balance is a very real problem as it is but add wage stagnation despite considerable inflation and you have a very unhappy and angry populace. Bad news bears.

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There has to be a way to balance socialism and capitalism. There has to be. Absolutes don’t exist with so many variables that can be controlled. The Netherlands seems to have a system that kinda does just that, so there has to be an answer for our country.

If you look back at the blue chip companies post WWII, they made solid profits while at the same time taking care of their employees. IBM trained their engineers to be engineers, paid for college in some cases, sponsored bowling leagues, and had a lot of family oriented activities. I'm sure GE, NEC, and the rest had similar programs. They took care of their people, which bred loyalty, which increased productivity.

Then in the late 70s and early 80s, it all became about maximizing shareholder profit. You can't do it by spending all that money on your employees, c'mon! That train has been rolling ever since.

American corporate culture used to, in many ways, value people as much as profit. (It wasn't exactly a golden age, there was still a lot of worker abuse and dangerous conditions.) With today's emphasis on profit, productivity is increased through fear rather than loyalty.

You can mix capitalism with socialistic ideals. It's actually pretty simple, just treat your employees like actual people. Pay a wage that will support them, provide good benefits, don't overwork them, and don't put profits ahead of your workforce. (Ben and Jerry capped their salary at, I think, seven times the lowest paid worker's wage.) Corporations being decent people (they are legally individuals in some ways) would also go a long way to curbing the welfare rolls and easing the burden on a lot of social programs, which in turn saves tax money.

The disparity in wages is sickening. CEOs that collect hundreds of millions in salary while workers at all levels of that company require fucking welfare to live...they really are asking for another Bastille Day. It’s disgusting and frankly inhibits societal progress.

Well, the French Revolution and Bastille Day eventually turned into a nightmare. After they executed the nobles, the country devolved into a civil war and the masses turned on each other and the varying factions vying for power started executing people and faction killings in the tens of thousands during the "Reign of Terror." This resulted in many years of instability, eventually resulting in the rise of an authoritarian oligarchy, which was then overthrown by Napoleon, who then turned the country into an authoritarian empire with him as emperor.

So the end product of that violent revolution against the monarchy was the rise of another authoritarian monarch who reverted the country back to a monarchy after rising to power on populist sentiment. Ultimately, the country was probably worse off in the long run.

A couple problems: 1: If you provide welfare people are going to take it and business will be able to pay less because the government is subsidizing peoples living. 2: The accumulation of wealth is actually what most human innovations have come from through investment. 3: what actually inhibits societal process is the government stealing 20% or everyone’s wages in order to pay for subsidies to big business, social security, etc

Hundreds of millions? Not for most companies.

Someone did the math for Walmart and if they gave the ceo salary to EVERYONE has a bonus (divided) you'd have a few dollars across all the employees.

Yeah but it's not just the CEO, it's the CEO, and the shareholders, and the executives, and all the other higher-ups. We are producing more than EVER so where is the wealth going? The only way to produce more and have less is if your labor is being exploited and stolen to fill someone else's pocket

The only way to produce more and have less is if your labor is being exploited and stolen to fill someone else's pocket

false dichotomy, I'll leave you to figure out why.

Nah, if all other things are held constant, you produce more than last year, and receive less than last year, then your labor is being stolen. Yes there's oddball situations like somehow you were overpaid previously so it's not being stolen just corrected but the end result is someone is taking more of your stuff and since the majority of the working class is being exploited that pretty much always means they're being exploited more. I would like to hear a counterexample if it's so obvious that I should be able to just figure it out

Things aren't constant though.

I know wages are shit but prices are also dropping like a rock.

Okay, but I'm not talking about the number that comes after the dollar sign I'm talking about how much purchasing power you have. Whether prices drop or the dollar inflates should be irrelevant except for the purpose of considering friction in the market

What really gets me is if everything is more efficient, and workers are working longer hours, where is all this added value going? How come my grandfather in italy was able to come home for lunch and get home at 5 while supporting 3 kids at 25. I just don't understand, how much can the 1% have before they think it's enough. They can't take the money with them when they die and they can't possibly spend it in a life time. 1million dollars would take me almost 900 paychecks and we are cutting taxes for people with billions wtf

Because bank accounts are how you keep score.

I know a guy like this. His one question to catch up is “how much money are you making? I make $X.”

They (numerous articles) talk about how we should be open about our salaries - but really, that just invites us to fight amongst ourselves while the executives make a hell of a lot more.

The thing he never asks is how I am doing. How much time I spend with my kids. How often I can work from home to take care of my kids. Meanwhile, he is talking about taking a great gig that’s a two hours commute to make a little more money.

Because his paycheck is how he sees value, not in being home with his wife and children.

Two friends are getting divorced. She sees her divorce as a point of pride because “all the people are her level are divorced” because they’re just so dedicated to their jobs, ignorant of what it does to their families, because again, dat paycheck is what matters!

I quit a gig where I made twice as much as I do now. It involves travel. And they wanted more travel at last minute notice, and just expected me to give up the time I had with my kids to just work more. I quit and went back to development.

Last night, my kids told me i am their hero. That was worth far more than any dollar sign can ever provide.

That last part made me tear up. Jeez

Just saw an interview on youtube Democracy Now channel with a man from UK who took a job at a Amazon warehouse. The people in the warehouse didnt have time to use the bathroom, got paid shit wages, had to run all around the warehouse all day and didnt make much money. Meanwhile, Bezos is worth more than $100 billion.

​

Found it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCEYkwzk9tw&t=1104s

The living standards are vastly different between now and then, and we spend our money on a lot more "stuff" due to consumerism. Your grandfather likely didn't have a car, TV, cellphones, appliances, internet, etc and didn't have social security, health insurance, etc.

My grandparent's house for example, didn't even have running water and electricity. So sure, my grandparents were able to "support" 2-3 kids on a job that still allowed him to be home for dinner, but their life was basically near poverty level that lacked all the amenities and benefits of modern living standards have, and they didn't spend any money on consumer goods.

That is true, but im also making about $1000 more annually than my father did out of school in 1980's. Sure he didnt have the same kind of rediculous cable bill.

FYI executive salaries are 200 to 400 times larger than a workers salary of $50,000/y depending on where you are (Canada, US, UK).

You are like either, I'm referencing a Bernie Sanders quote from a few years ago and it's not like the situation is any better.

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Are you doing anything that helps people less fortunate than you?

No. I dedicate my spare time to my children, these days. I've given my time to others in the past, I was president of a local volunteer organization and my partners and I organized an effort to turn an abandoned school into a free health clinic to serve the local community. Every time I go back to Maryland and see the full parking lot it brings back good memories, I can't even imagine how many thousands of people have gotten help there since we opened the doors. These days though? I'd rather take my boys camping or play princesses with my daughter.

Nice stuff, I too spend most of my free time with my two young kids doing very much the same things.

Because they made higher education into a buisness....

Very true. Even here I Canada were it is partially subsidized.

It's because the real value of a college degree is much much less now. We've been scammed that we had to get these degrees or we would be failures. Well now that a ton of people have then, they don't mean much for discrimating potential employees.

We have a minimum wage, we should also have a maximum wage

This. Maybe 9-5 isn’t the problem. Maybe the problem is 9-5 and no longer anywhere.

Why are we making what our parents made or worse coming out of COLLEGE OR UNIVERSITY?

One of the main reasons is because college education itself has been vastly inflated. When everyone has a college degree, then college degrees became devalued and become the equivalent of a high school degree. For example, secretary or admin assistant jobs that didn't need a degree now needs a degree.

On the other hand, college degrees that are in in-demand fields (eg. STEM) pay far better today than what they did in the past even when adjusted for inflation.

It's all about supply and demand. Folks in the US in the 60s-80s had blue collar or trade jobs that were in demand, and labor market was tight which restricted supply. In comparison, most college degrees are a dime a dozen today, so supply exceeds demand and the pay is mediocre. However, in-demand college degrees in STEM and accounting is where demand exceeds supply, so the pay is very good.

It’s really all perspective isn’t it?

I work in Hospitality. Working from 3pm-2am, rarely getting weekends or holidays off. I have a wife and a 2 year old I barely get to see. My son cries with my wife at night asking for me to come home. It literally kills me.

I’m currently full time at a college trying to get a 9-5 office job. So at least I have nights and weekends at home with my family. Even if only for a few hours a night.

Keep at it dude. I'm sorry you're missing the best years of your son's life. If you're lucky when he is your age he won't have to go through it too and you'll know all the sacrifice was worth it.

Thx for the kind words! It’s tough but I agree it will all be worth it in the end.

I hate to break it to you but it doesn’t get any better. If you pay off that student debt, pretty soon it will be a car loan, or a mortgage. Your best bet is to start investing or try to hit it big because corporate life is literally created in order to make us unknowing slaves to our own debt, and that’s coming from someone who makes a good salary and is debt-free with a good investment portfolio, because at some point you have to dip in, regardless what tier of the game you are at.

Cheers to keeping up the illusion of freedom and the American dream.

Fake it till you make it!

Why get saddled with car debt and a mortgage? Live within your means. Save an ass load of your income and invest it. Take advantage of 401ks iras and other tax advantaged accounts. Take what little free time you have, do some research, learn the magic of compounding interest/returns and let your money and corporate culture work for you instead of the other way around. It’s not hopeless.

To be honest, I took a car loan recently because at 5.2% interest from the bank, it would actually cost me more money to buy the car I want by withdrawing cash from the investment account I use than to pay interest, because I’ve seen more then 5% growth in average on the year to year. Mortgage is just like rent except you end up with equity, paying rent is essentially pissing away your money, so if I’m spending 1k into rent right now I might as well be pumping that into owning a home that will appreciate in value.

And even though my debt in that sense is relatively controlled(I don’t have credit card debt as I pay my bill promptly every month in full, and I could pay off my 20,000$ car loan instantly if I wanted), I still feel trapped, because in order to keep that going I need to work 40hr/week for the next 30 years so I can sit around in my retirement and wait to die of cancer, while I’ll be too old to do any of the active things I enjoy doing now but don’t have time for.

And that’s from someone who was blessed to have a good financial background and parents who gave me 4000$ as seed money for college graduation rather than a car, watch or other depreciating asset(or nothing like I’m sure most people get). It pains me to think that even with all these advantages I have had all it has done is show me how trapped 99% of people in this system are and that really bums me out.

I feel you. The last 12 years I have been working for a company for the insurance coverage and the PTO/sick leave. I have had 3 major surgeries in those 12 years. The last one was this year and had my large bowel and the rest of the exit portals removed and sewed shut and had the small bowel pulled out of my abdomen for a permanent ileostomy. I am now working to build up enough leave, before the end of the year, so I can have yet another surgery while still under the deductible of this year. I currently have student loan debt and owe my local hospital close to $15k in medical bills. If I did not have Crohn's disease I would have set up my own gym and been doing what I do now 8 years ago and living and working on my own terms. Unfortunately insurance and my health are extreme cost barriers to that wish. So I guess I will need to keep working 5 days a week just to have the time off available for medical issues as I have had only 2 weeks of 'real' vacation in 12 years.

Man I hope if I get tried the way you have that I have the strength to overcome. I'm sorry you won such a shitty lottery.

It has sucked. I have struggled with Crohn's since I was 13 and I am now 41. That being said, I am who I am in large part due to the struggle and I frequently acknowledge that my struggle allows me the empathy necessary to do what I do for a living. Part of what helps keep me leveled is that I work as a personal trainer for extremely disabled people. It is not always the greatest line of thought, but having the daily reminder that there are others that have it way worse helps re-center my attitude. I hope you never struggle but if you do, you have the strength.

I commute 3 hours a day from Monday through Thursday(get to WFH on Friday) and all I want to do on the weekends is rest so I can be ready to do it all again next week. It's so sad. I used to be very healthy too, but this past year I've been eating like garbage because it's fast, easy, and relatively cheap. I hope things change when I pay off my loans...but I doubt it.

all I want to do on the weekends is rest so I can be ready to do it all again next week.

This exactly. I've actually had quite a few people congratulate me on weight loss (it's very noticeable in my face) but I wasn't necessarily trying to :/ Even though I'm happy that I look better, I definitely don't physically feel better.

You gotta take care of yourself buddy, I lose track of that a lot too. You are your mind, and your body is what makes it possible for your mind to survive. The will to workout and take the steps to ensure you eat right has to come from within. Idk what your family life is like but if you want to get old and watch your grandchildren grow up one day you need to make the sacrifice and invest in your body.

Yeah I still get to workout a few times a week. By no means do I look awful, but I can imagine my insides are seriously questioning my decisions. Family life is good, it's just my girlfriend and I in an apartment. I think part of the unhealthy eating is the instant gratification. I work/commute all day so afterwards...do I want a cheeseburger or a salad? Give me the cheeseburger. I need at least one thing to enjoy today.

I doubt it'll be like this forever(used to be a health nut) but it is what it is for now.

I too took up homebrewing and its great. I even brew after work some days. Weekends sometimes I do 2 beers in 1 day. I work 5am to 1:30pm so I have lots of free time to do things tho :)

My man, what's your setup like? I have a 10 gallon all grain system I built. Keggle, cooler mash ton, found 3 15 gallon barrels for conditioning, a water circulation system I built with copper tubes for crash cooling, 25 gallons of keg space and who knows how many plastic tubs. I want to get into reusing my mash to get in a second session ale but I also want to get my process below 4 hours flame on to pitching the yeast before I do that. Current record is just under 5.

I'm trying to get more where your at :)

Currently I'm doing 5 gallon batches on a 10 gallon kettle. I installed a ball valve, got a chugger pump, and soldered together a whirlpool arm. I have a 25' coil that I use a 1/6 HP submersible sump pump to put cooling water through. I'm able to cool a batch to pitch temp within 10 minutes. I was able to do 2 beers in 6 hours a couple weeks ago.

I just got a keg from a friend who couldn't get the deposit back. I already have a Jaybird false bottom; just need to remove the spear and cut the top off. Next I'll have to make a 50' cooling coil and a new sparge arm.

I want to start experimenting with different dry hopping, post ferment adjuncts, and types of yeast for a 10 gallon batch split.

I have a 14 cu ft freezer on a temp controller for fermenting and I built out a keggerator with 4 taps. I have a hard time keeping more than 2 beers at a time.

I mean in terms of process and cooling space I'm trying to get where you're at. If we keep at it we'll either achieve our dreams or have more than enough great beer to be happy with what we have, cheers and see you on r/homebrew!

ya and this is definitely a problem with the current college pretty much for profit schools. They are sucking you dry of your bank account with the promise of following your dreams but in reality they turn them into nightmares because all they care about is getting you into enough debt to profit off of.

More bootstraps, you just need more bootstraps! Hey man, it's not like this is by a wide margin the richest country on Earth. You want to be a millionaire, you gotta earn it-just like all millionaires.

What is your degree/career in?

Marketing degree from Temple, marketing isn't the best major I know but in Philly it's good for networking since it's a blue collar school with tons of local alumni. Started small marketing company that had a good hold on a niche market, then moved into business sales for a large Telecom company, and am currently jockeying for a lateral move into an entry project management role at the same company because it turns out I hate sales.

I hate how much i relate to this... we will make it someday. We have time.

I escaped traditional working life after 14 years by starting to travel. At some point I learned a skill that I can use anywhere and without tools, to be able to sustain myself while on the road.
There's also numerous communities where you can either volunteer or just live. Life is way cheaper, I spent only a few thousand euros a year and I have a lot of free time.

This kind of thing makes me mad that kids are pushed to college. It isn't some gateway to success, we need to stop telling kids it is.

I used to make beer too. Now the kids and work schedule just don't allow it believe it or not! I guess my new "hobby" is taking care of the garden and the house but I sure miss brewing.

Home Brewing is the best!

Maybe in the next 5 years you'll be good enough at making beer to pursue it full time!

I started about 5 years ago so good thing I got a head start.

as Prince said, we are serfs

Homebrewing is my hobby too and I now need to plan it weeks in advance...

Holy shit, I could never imagine the weight on your shoulders...

It's not that bad, Im only 27 with no kids. I just need to figure out a way to work for myself and compete in a marketplace.

unfortunately the food/beer trendiness now is because most job prospects will be serving them

What was your degree in and what are you doing now?

Marketing from Temple in Philly. Started in digital marketing sales in a small company in a niche market. Moved to business sales for a large Telecom, now I'm in the process of making a lateral move to a project manager role.

One could say...

We have nothing to lose but our ~~chains~~ debt

That's true, I'm just whining because I'm afraid I won't escape the trap.

Edit: gotcha lol

The debt makes it the worst. You can't quit, or do anything else with your life because you have that student debt still. Even making good money, that debt is still there. So, you can't go anywhere. You can't just stop making money, because your savings doesn't cover the costs. It just wouldn't work. You would go from middle class to homeless in less than three months. Working sucks.

If you don’t have family or close friends, move countries.

That said in the next 5 years I hope I either hit the mega millions or die, working life sucks, I feel like a slave to my debt and cost to live.

My parents and grandparents came from a communist country, and their recollection of their past life experiences always made me appreciate how lucky we Americans/Westerners are to be working only 40 hours a week while making enough money to afford to buy a car, afford a home or apartment that isn't crowded with multiple families, afford to buy meat and fruit on a regular basis, etc. We are a lot better off than the vast majority of the world.

My parents had never even seen bananas or sweet grapes before they came to the US, had to buy basic necessities such as cooking oil with vouchers (there were often shortages), could only afford small quantities of meat on special occasions, and even eggs were rare enough to be cherished before eating. Whenever I felt like my life was crap during my broke college & grad-school years (eating boiled potatoes, ramen, and eggs and working for peanuts), I'd recall my parent's and grandparent's memories and put my life into perspective on how good I actually had it.

You're actually making a decent living working 40hour weeks?

I just used 40 hours as the standard example. I work 40-50 hours now (mostly 45...and not because I have to, because most of my coworkers leave early and work 40) and despite my grad school student loans, am making a decent living. Almost all of my friends who majored in in-demand majors such as accounting, computer science, other STEM, etc are making a very good living and working roughly 40 hours a week most of the time.

Same amount dollar for dollar, or accounting for inflation?

I'm making about $1000 more dollar for dollar

Granted he was also living paycheck to paycheck but he also had a house, a car, and was able to start a family while putting some money away for a rainy day.

You may be making roughly the same dollar for dollar, but really you're making significantly less. $30,000 in 1986 has the same purchasing power as nearly $70,000 today. Think about how much you'd be able to do with $70k a year. $30,000 today is comparable to a $13,000 wage in 1986.

Granted he was also living paycheck to paycheck but he also had a house, a car, and was able to start a family while putting some money away for a rainy day.

I'm honestly not trying to argue or anything, but that is the exact opposite of living paycheck to paycheck. The fact that he was able to build capital (a house, a car, plus savings) means he definitely had something at the end of the month. He didn't have zero money at the end of the month after paying towards expenses that have zero future value to him (rent, bills, debt).

I agree and understand. To add insult to injury he didn't have email or a cell phone. I'm always on call and always expected to respond to emails in a timely fashion. If he worked a 12 hour day, he was able to go home and get himself right for the next day. Not trying to sound soft but the two professional jobs ive had worked me like a dog, treated me like my salary meant they have access to me like google, all the while acting like i should be thanking them along side sun salutations for the opportunity. My first boss would often brag how he was the 2nd biggest land owner in his town and how he could retire at any time.

The US sucks so bad, i payed 200€ per Semester.

I haven't been making minimum payments and still have 23,000 to go!

I feel like a slave to my debt and cost to live.

So.... you're upset about having responsibilities? Which is pretty much you? LOL, you snowflakes need to get out of US/Canada once in a while to see what life in rest of the world is really like.

Leave me alone troll, I don't need to explain myself to you. I'll be voicing my discontent at the voting booth November don't worry your little head.

LOL, what you meant to say is: waaaaaah!! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

You must love your master, does he treat you so well?

Well enough to where I don't complain about supporting myself, unlike you. And your response to all of that is "I will vote in Nov and someone ELSE will make it all better for me!!!!" Yass BERNIE!!!!!

LOL, could you be any more childish?

Yep I'm a child you win. I'm sorry for talking bad about your master you clearly love him and I'd hate to drive a wedge between you and the work you do for him. I'm sure he pays you extra well and you're happy to do the tasks he gives you. Enjoy your life happy working man, you're the glue of america.

Thank you! You should also remember that you are what is wrong with America(although there's very little if anything wrong). You are someone that wants something for nothing, absolve yourself of all of YOUR responsibilities while someone else to takes care of you and will want to legislate people into doing so.

Although not going to happen. Get back to work!

Tell your master about me tomorrow and you can laugh together. Then afterwards he'll be laughing when he gets in the car that he bought with your labor, to go to the house he bought with your labor. Useful Idiot.

LOL, why won't someone pay for me to breathe? I don't wanna!! Waaaaah! Waaaaaaaaaaah! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

You're talking to someone who has had a job for 12 years. Lifeguard summers starting at 15, bartended in college, and had a job when I graduated.

Was the opposite for me. Went to a good university for computer science. Had very very very little time during the degree. Now that I'm working, I have way more free time and way less stress. I can actually pursue hobbies, go to the gym way more often, etc.

Same. When I was in college I basically slept like 4 hours a night. I was working or in class or doing school work constantly. Once I graduated, I had a shitty job and had plenty of free time but zero money to do anything but watch tv and look for other work.

mate, we work hard in college to have money after. if you want zero money, you could of lamed through it 75% drunk.

use the work ethic you previously had at pursuing something better seriously. leave your current role if you can, this will motivate you further.

lol, thanks, but I graduated about 15 years ago and am no longer at urban outfitters just to make rent while I job search. I did need the job to pay rent. We don't all have the luxury of quitting just to get motivated to find work but thanks for trying to help.

But isn't this the trap Sir Richard is speaking about? I've always felt 'work ethic' tied to 'self worth as a human' was always a false connection. It only benefits the one who has convinced you this is true.

You go into massive debt in order to spend most of your healthy adult years paying off, before you can get to the point physically of not being able to enjoy what you earned, or worse, an early grave.

i wasn't referring to his self worth. i was referring to the amount of greenbacks in his pocket relative to how hard he worked in college.

Damn. Are you me?

Shhh...Only when you are asleep.

I think it matters A LOT what field you go to college for.
If you're in a science field, you'll enjoy your life.
If you get a degree in some of these totally non-productive fields, You'll probably hate work, and love the idea of Socialism.

I think the stem idea is limited to computer science and engineering. I know work chemistry/biology, you're gonna get screwed until you have a graduate degree and 10 years experience.

That's the point. Chemistry/Biology is more of an investment because the fruits are normally very slow to ripen. While there are some really good jobs in the Chemistry field, that you can come out of Undergrad school, and do pretty well. I know Pharmaceutical Companies pay Reps a TON of money, and they're usually young people.

The idea is, find a field that you like, and there's money to be made there. Don't go into a field that doesn't pay well, and then complain for a lifetime about the pay.

It's like Teaching. I've got family members that teach, The pay is not great. It's great if you like taking summers abroad. There's ABSOLUTE job security. The benefits are well above average. There's zero stress. Yet people go into the field, and 2 years in, they're upset about the pay. Teacher pay has been below average for the education you need since the dawn of time.
You've got to look at the job as a whole.

For example; I left a good field, I could have made MORE salary in my original field, but that field didn't have good benefits. There was no pension plans. I switched, took on more stress, less job security, because the benefits were better. I could make a higher Salary, but I took that into consideration.

You're putting all of the onus on the workers and just grandfathering in the system that made it how it is. You're painting this image of a system with unrealistic kids trying to get a free ride instead of the reality that it's a system rigged by the rich to favor the rich. You've drank the cool-aid and bought into the lie that we live in a meritocracy when that couldn't be further from the truth.

I work in a lucrative field with plenty of freedom and job opportunities but that doesn't make me blind to the inequality and corruption in our current system that is only getting worse as time goes on. Try researching how Norway and Scandinavia run their countries if you want to know more about wildly successful social democracies, that way you can avoid lying about how these damn kids want "socialism".

What's unrealistic to say, that some jobs pay better then others? Job pay is based on Supply and Demand.

The countries you mentioned use the "Norwegian Model" They are not social democracies. They are not socialists. They're Hyper Capitalists, with HUGE welfare programs.
Their corporate taxes are a fraction of what the United States charge.
Before you try to insult people, get some of your facts right. The only person lying here is you.

What's unrealistic to say, that some jobs pay better then others? Job pay is based on Supply and Demand.

Wrong. It is affected by supply and demand but actual wages are the pittance left over after the owner class takes their majority cut.

The countries you mentioned use the "Norwegian Model" They are not social democracies. They are not socialists. They're Hyper Capitalists, with HUGE welfare programs.Their corporate taxes are a fraction of what the United States charge.Before you try to insult people, get some of your facts right. The only person lying here is you.

Hyper Capitalist? Ha ha, America is the most Hyper Capitalist country in the world! You're insane, as for the tax rates , This table says you're wrong. It's hard to make direct comparisons when accounting for marginal and effective rates though. Please source where Norway's corporate taxes are a "fraction" of the US's I'll wait. Yeah, they have HUGE welfare programs and beat America in most relevant metrics because of it, including happiness and leisure time. You're living in your own reality, I hope the weather is better there than it is here.

https://taxfoundation.org/how-scandinavian-countries-pay-their-government-spending/

Corporate taxes = Much lower.. US has a insane Progressive tax... We tax the rich, MUCH MUCH MORE.

We tax the rich, MUCH MUCH MORE.

Sure, if you ignore reality. The effective tax rate for the top 1% is 24% for income tax. Probably lower since the recent tax cuts. For the record that's currently income above $421,926.

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/historical-average-federal-tax-rates-all-households

Meh, plenty of people in high achieving, STEM career paths are keen on the idea of socialism. Personally I believe the solution isn't socialism or capitalism in isolation, but somewhere threaded down the middle.

That's NOT how socialism works.
Socialism requires Totalitarianism. Which, doesn't work well with "down the middle". What you're probably really advocating is, Capitalism, with HUGE Welfare systems. Like the Norwegian model. Because despite what Bernie Sanders says places like Denmark are NOT SOCIALIST. They're Capitalist with huge Welfare programs. They have Zero defense budgets, almost ZERO medical innovation comes from here. Those so called socialists are actually more business friendly then the United States, which is the opposite of Socialism.

The Nordic countries have some of the highest standards of living , happiness index etc. Who cares if the USA is a hot bed of innovation and a play ground for the rich when we have historic levels of poverty and the diseases that are associated with it including obesity, smoking, mental health, diabetes etc.

The citizens correctly identified that the entire society would be better off if they all chipped in to provide the BASIC requirements for a happy and productive life

Who cares? Denmark, Sweden, Norway.
The US Pays for their defense.
DO you think their quality of life would be that high without the innovations they take advantage of that the United States created?

Historic levels of Poverty? The opposite is true. The burden of Proof is on you if you make a claim like that.

The Norwegian model is ONLY possible because the of the United States, and even still, they're going bankrupt. They already tax income up to 61%, so they can't afford to tax more.. In 30 years, They're retirement age will be 80 lol...

Norway has a sovereign wealth fund that controls over $1 trillion in assets. How are they going bankrupt?

Because they're spending more then they bring in. I'm not saying They're going to fold, but unless they want to be the like the US, and operate out of a deficit, they'll have to make cuts.
They're going to change their retirement age. ect.

Norway, Denmark and Sweden are not even close to going bankrupt. They have better finances than most of the developed countries.

Sure, the US protects the world right now. If it stopped paying tomorrow, the EU would quickly link armies and have a budget big enough to fend off the Ruskies.

He/she posts in r/thedonald...that tells you all you need to know about them.

No use continuing a conversation with someone that far off the deep end.

You realize that everyone else would have to like triple their budgets to just remain where they're at right?

The US spends 3.3% of GDP on military, whereas the EU is around 1.7%. It would involve doubling the budgets, not tripling - the EU GDP is equivalent to the US GDP.

If we’re just looking at defense, you could do it much cheaper than the US, who have bases in almost every country in the world and have spent decades fighting pointless wars.

No... Because % based doesn't tell you much. Look at the total dollar amount. 1.7% of 400B isn't much in comparison. The US contributes 51% of the spending. So if the US cuts HALF of that... You think the other countries are going to come up with 25% of 685.9 billion? HA... Most can't contribute 2 billion.

I’m talking about if the alliance ends and EU stands by itself. I thought that’s what you were mentioning by the idea that the US is currently protecting Europe. Of course the EU military budgets will go up if NATO ends. But there is no need to spend as much as the US if it’s for actual real defense, and not for pointless wars.

I’m not really sure what figures you’re quoting? The US defense budget is $590bn, EU is $226bn. Why would the EU need to spend as much as the US currently does?

If the US stops getting involved in any of the conflicts in that region, and leaves to to the EU. They'll have to invest a LOT more money. Most of the intelligence that prevents terror comes from the US. Most terror attacks happen in that region. If a hands off approach were to happen the EU would suffer. They're already in a war of attrition.

The EU already has a huge anti-terror operation. You don’t really think that the US military is doing much anti-terror operations do you? What would a giant and expensive military force need to do against a few goat herders with rocket launchers in the middle east? How many terrorists are the nuclear powered aircraft carriers catching? The intelligence services is where all the action is there, and frankly the US intelligence service is a joke. Remember “weapons of mass destruction”?

Half the people in Guantanamo were unlucky people on the streets of Afghanistan with jealous neighbours. All of the huge anti terror “successes” turned out to be made up. I think Europe can do just fine without America’s “anti-terror operations”.

How do you qualify total BS like this?

Half the people in Guantanamo were unlucky people on the streets of Afghanistan with jealous neighbours.

BTW it's neighbors.

I think you're bias is pretty clear.

Neighbours is the English spelling, neighbors is the American-English spelling.

I qualify bullshit like this by reading about it.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/most-guantanamo-detainees-are-innocent-ex-bush-official-1.804550

Huh? Socialism, or at the very least socialistic principals, do not require totalitarianism. I don’t see Denmark or the Netherlands being under totalitarian regimes.

OMG... dude... you read?
Denmark and Netherlands ARE NOT SOCIALIST. They're MORE Capitalist then the United States. They have ultra low regulations, ultra low corporate tax. They just have a huge Welfare system.

They're not socialists.
https://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/denmark-tells-bernie-sanders-to-stop-calling-it-socialist/

FYI those countries have some of the most strict immigration too.
You can't have open borders, and a welfare state.

So instead we should all suffer or get STEM jobs that we suck at or hate? Get real dude.

Also your knowledge field is STEM leave the politics to some of those people taking useless degrees like Politics.

Actually, you've got that backwards....

So you're argument is, people should be able to get an education in a field that is less lucrative, and make the same money as a more lucrative field, because??? Because, Their feelings will be hurt otherwise?
Is that what your saying?

Did I say the same amount? People shouldn't be slaving over their job because they don't work in STEM.

Just because they're not making a lot of money or working in a highly sought after field doesn't mean they're "slaving". Teachers are not slaving. Lawyers are not slaving. Social workers are not slaving.
Christ try to be less obtuse.

I've got guys who can hardly read making 140k a year because nobody wants to do their job. Sure, it's not glamorous, it's not easy, but there's LOTS of money doing stuff other people can't/won't.

Less obtuse? We are on an article about making shorter work weeks because work has taken over people's lives so yeah people aren't currently enjoying life because of their job.

They're Social Democrats that think they're Democratic Socialists.

You know the chain started with someone talking about their experience in the office, so more likely some sort of finance degree. Don't let that get in front of your agenda though.

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt and then he said “non-productive fields” and lost me. It does to some degree (no pun intended) matter what field you go into but more importantly who you work for. No need to look down on others for what they studied.

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Exactly, that's what Google is for. The end game of college is literally just to get a piece of paper saying you're qualified to work in a field. If you go to college simply to learn things then you're managing your resources poorly since all that information can be obtained for free in other ways, at least that's my opinion.

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I still think people should pursue what they love, even if theirs not a lot of employment opportunities or money to be made in that field. I would rather make little money but go to a job that I love everyday and not have it feel like work, then make a lot of money while spending all day everyday at a job I hate. How am I supposed to feel happy and fulfilled when I don't like what I do for a living? Although people should be aware of the employment opportunities and possible earnings for the field they plan to study.

[deleted]

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. And I don't disagree with you entirely. I guess what I'm saying is you should still find a field you enjoy that will also set up on a good path for the future, even if it's not your biggest passion. I decided to enroll in the music program at my local college after my application for a vet tech program fell through. It is a lot more work than I initially thought and can be a bit overwhelming sometimes but I still love it; it's very rewarding. And I know that, contrary to popular belief, there is quite a few career opportunities for professional musicians, although the performing side of things has been dwindling over the years. But everyone is different and you make some good points. I agree that high schools should be teaching kids more about budgeting, handling your money and other life skills. I know it would have helped me out. I think schools should still teach kids to pursue what they love, but also how to set up a good future for them self at the same time.

I could've downloaded my PDFs of all my engineering books and worked through all the textbook problems and used a chegg account to make sure I'm getting the right answers and I'd probably be more proficient in engineering. But it would take a lot of drive for me to do that, college helps by letting the professors force you to do problems and so that you can network with students and professors. Obviously there's a lot more benefits to college but if you're just looking for knowledge, books are the best way to go.

I'd argue there's online resources even better than fellow students, who have the same lack of experience as you, or professors, who likely have little real world experience due to the nature of classroom teaching. If you can find a good forum for the things that interest you you'll have access to experts in their fields who have classroom and real world experience, and they're doing it as a hobby of sorts as opposed to being paid so they'll likely be more engaged than someone doing it for a paycheck. Even if you can't find a live forum you can always Google the questions you have because someone likely had that same question before you did.

I think this way requires the same amount of motivation as taking classes but it's more leg work. In college the professors lay all the information in front of you and tell you to learn it, but with a little Google-fu the same information should be found pretty easily and once you get things rolling it becomes easier and easier to know what to look for. Overall I'd say independent research is easier for me if only because I can work at my own pace and spend more or less time on certain parts depending on my comprehension. I get bored in a classroom setting really quickly and if I don't engage in being disruptive then I disengage from the class, neither of those options work out all that well.

I'm a millennial and I remember when Google didn't exist. There are many people that locked themselves into degrees before information was as free as it is today.

It's a bad idea but a lot of people don't have choice. The majority of people aren't good at STEM related careers and don't find joy in them at all that's why they are understaffed on average.

It's classic elitist STEM retards in here who think that everyone can do STEM careers and nothing else has value.

Yup. I say that as a STEM major and can easily say it’s not for everyone just like I wouldn’t be able to do other things.

Yeah nothing wrong with his first sentence. Then he goes completely off the rails

He said a degree in a non productive field.

I don't know if you're implying this but the majority of people aren't good at STEM related careers nor find them enjoyable which means a lot of people are just kind of fucked.

No.... My point is you've got to consider how much money there is to be made in a field. IF you're wife/husband makes good money, and you can afford to work in a field that you enjoy, that's great. However, if you just blindly follow your passion into a field that has little prospects; You need to be prepared for the outcome that you will make less money, and have a harder time finding a job.
Supply and Demand. Some jobs don't pay well. IF you want good pay, there are fields that have that.
It's a matter of whats important to you.

You worked for your career. Most people are working their jobs. Its great that you have that freedom.

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You know exactly why its like that and you americans keep voting for them. Im brazilian, it happened in my cojntry after we became the worlds 3rd strongest economy. Everything went to shit after and now my family back home lives in a collapsed paradise. Here in the US, you guys are on the verge of the same thing unless if things get taken seriiusly and the country unites to force the change instead of expecting it to come randomly.

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Just infuriating.

Fucking DNC.

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Until we get another voting system, 3rd parties won’t win. Not because the system is rigged against them, but because people here just don’t support their policies.

If you narrowed last elections field down to just 3rd parties, you would have seen even worse voter turnout. People just genuinely don’t support libertarians and progressives as much as they support Rs and Ds.

I agree that our voting is terrible but this isn't something that will be fix anytime soon because everyone fixates on the major elections. You know how the tea party took control of the gop? They ran people in almost every local election that they could first. If you want to see change you have to start from the bottom. Yes, that takes a lot of time, but it's the only way anything changes. In the meantime yes you will likely end up voting on the lesser evil in major elections, because in order for those changes you want to happen there still needs to be a country

That's a very shortsighted way to think about it. I will vote 3rd party not to win this election, but to hopefully win a later one because my vote will help build confidence that a 3rd party will win. People who tell others it is a wasted vote are part of the problem.

That's not how it'll work out. Republicans are high turnout voters. They don't opt out because Rubio lost. If liberals and Independents vote 3rd party we'll just move right as a country.

a lot of libertarian voters come from the right side. People are leaving the republican party too. it isnt just people from the left going middle.

Nothing is rigged dude. It's just the votes. Votes that matter went to the person who's elected.

Next election make everyone you know, vote.

Please explain how Bernie Sanders would have created more wealth for this country? Also please let me know how a lack of regulation caused the great recession. The government is not the primary driver of wealth in this country and it is in fact government policy that helped lead to the great recession.

Do you have a source for 3rd strongest economy? Wikipedia has y’all pegged at 8th

Not today dude, like 6 years ago. I over exaggerated, it was 6th in 2012.

What's your solution, socialism?

Democratic socialism seems to be working. Im not saying its the future of the himan race. Just better than what we have now. Free healthcare, free birth control, better school funding, less harm overseas (the US has some skeletons in its closet), anti corruption bill, make sure rich people dont get away with their crimes, start making perjury illegal again. Shit like that can be passed if socialism is involved.

Democratic socialism doesn't create wealth, it leaches off of existing wealth. Do you honestly believe those social services are free? They are paid for through the confiscation of your paycheck. I will agree with you that no one should get away with crimes be it businesses, wealthy people or anyone else. But ultimately the advances of modern society are the result of the profit motive, not taxes and regulation.

Leaches off existing wealth in one of the richest countries in the world thats burns money for fun on stupid shit? A country that loves to spend money on weapons, vehicles, missiles, and jets. The government builds has projects in which a significant sum can go missing and not be questioned. Dont tell me we dont have the money, we just allow it to be spent stupidly. My taxes are currently sitting in the pocket of some rich human being that has no interest in giving it back. Politics speak for itself when republicans spent 2 trillion dollars on tax cuts.

Yes, America prioritizes defense spending because it is a public good. Believe it or not there is evil in this world and the threat of world war is ever present. Republicans spent 2 trillion dollars to lower our tax rates? You're going to have to flesh that one out a bit. I agree that government spending is way too high, but it's unrelated to the tax cuts. You seem to acknowledge that your taxes are sitting in the pockets of people without your best interest in mind. Make no mistake, no politician has your best interest in mind.

Is $35,000 their long term salary? IE will these people be earning $35,000 or it's equivalent 5 years from now? Sure some will, but most people earning lower wages are in the beginning of their career or have failed to develop the skills necessary to earn higher wages. I earned $35,000 fresh out of college 5 years ago, now I earn 70% more than that and in another 5 years I expect to earn significantly more than I do now.

In 1900, the yearly income for the average American was ~$450. In today's dollars that's still only around ~$13,000. Make no mistake, as the country has gained wealth, we have ALL gotten much better off. Poor people in America have cars and flat screen televisions. I don't buy the notion that half the country is on the verge of poverty.

Wages adjusted for their purchasing powers are at same level as 1974. An increase from 1900, but that was almost 120 years ago. No increase to be seen from for the last 50 years, whereas the debt needed to even earn that money has grown.

Techical detail, but he isn't a computer scientist. Somebody like a grad student of computer science or professor of computer science/engineering you could consider a computer scientist. Studying the science helps with certain jobs.

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I thought sales ppl make more . The top salesman in previous company got a shinny sports car as bonus

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Yeah, this is a solid point to make. While they are both under a larger technology umbrella IT and computer science are not the same and encompass very different types of work.

Why can't everyone be a computer scientist? People here are complaining about being riddled by student loan debt, but if they came out with a computer science degree or a degree in a STEM field, they most likely wouldn't be making $35k a year or less

Stop listening to music. Stop watching TV. Don't read. Don't go to movies. Don't play video games. Don't eat out. Don't talk politics. Don't make food at home either, only eat what you grow.

These are some of the reasons everyone can't be computer scientists. Because computer scientists don't create everything in the world.

What...? That's a completely different argument. Do you expect to take the risk going into those fields and make $100k per year? You can't complain about not making money and go into a field where you KNOW that you are most likely not going to make money. The world doesn't work like that

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Where are you getting your data for median wages in freefall since the mid 70's? Here are two quick googles that show that is false:

https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

Every economic marker continues to get better over time (with exceptions that usually correct). It is truly sad that people are in poverty, but a perfect society does not exist. However, there is a certain tradeoff in choosing certain careers in arts, civil service, etc where one knowingly has an income ceiling. Capitalism is, as always, the single best economic model to combat poverty.

America is not perfect, the job market is not perfect. It's fine and well to be upset that there are winners and losers in America and the world. But provide me a solution that works and is plausible to implement accounting for both the economic and social landscape and I will listen.

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Here is data, adjusted for CPI and Inflation, showing contunes wage growth:

https://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2017/09/19/u-s-household-incomes-a-50-year-perspective

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for each of these segments.

If you're going to try to call the guy out and correct him, arrogantly at that, at least understand the data you're trying to beat him with.

The 1% is a neat catchphrase, but it's wholly irrelevant to the discussion... unless of course you're arguing that the 1% in each quintile is dragging the mean up compared to the median, but I find that "I know the distribution" kind of argument nonsense. Show data or pound sand.

Can't tell if you're serious but if everyone wanted to be a computer scientist we would have more computer scientists than jobs available. Also, some people don't wanna be a computer scientist. Like, 'Hey quit complaining and choose a field that you're going to be miserable in'

That's a fair point but missing the general argument. You certainly don't need to work in a career you hate, but there is a tradeoff between doing something you absolutely love for your career and making no money vs doing something you can tolerate to pay the bills that leaves you enough money and free time to do the things you love outside of work

True. I don't really have any passions that would translate into a lucrative career. Hell, I'll take a standard 9-5 'boring' office job any of the week. I figured a business degree would be enough for that but it seems every company expects 3-5 years of office experience.

It's all about getting a start somewhere and then showcasing your skills. Once you get your first job, then you can start to excel and move up quickly if you're willing to work hard. I thought the same thing out of college - then I got my first job and have been excelling because I'm not lazy like 90% of the people I work with. If you care enough to voice your opinion on it, I'm sure you'll be fine too

Thanks for the advice. As soon as get my first big boy job I'll prove myself and advance quickly.

While true and great (same situation here), most people should not be working long enough that they don't have time for hobbies. Outside certain service and menial labor jobs, even at 40 hours, many folks are not as productive as they can be. I hope someday we can finally get closer to 30 hour work weeks.

If you can't get your work done in 40 hours a week, you're not being efficient. Sure there are busy times where more is needed but for the most part, salaried employees should be able to get done what they need to.

I worked a job that worked us 80 hours a week in 20 hour shifts with no breaks and didn't pay OT. They would hire a bunch of people, fire 2/3rds based on productivity and give the most productive 3x the workload.

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The idea is for the same salary (productivity based pay, not hours-ass-keeps-seat-warm based pay).

Bro when things happen like debt, loss of a job, having a child, property accidents, bad health, bad human involvement, you really cant control much of it after it happens. Thats why most people have to slave themselves to that lifestyle. Only to watch their money be taken by taxes only to see their taxes be stolen from under their eyes. If you can control your life with minimal negative aspects influencing it, it becomes so much easier.

The sad part is that taxes should be a good thing, if they went towards things that you listed as people's reasons for enslaving themselves to work - universal health care, maternity/paternity leave, a robust social safety net, etc. I saw that you said elsewhere you're from Brazil, so I'm guessing corruption has a lot to do with your anti-tax stance, which is quickly becoming a huge issue in the US too.

It's frustrating that there's a very vocal part of the electorate here that refuses to consider their taxes going towards programs that would help give people an actual work-life balance, or not be a practical death sentence if you lose your job and insurance - because that might mean helping someone less fortunate than them, god forbid - but people seem to be fine with massive tax breaks for corporations and the rich, just so people who don't need it can buy another mansion or yacht. It's fucked up.

Taxes and profits. They both come out of your labor value.

Stolen taxes? I wonder how you would like to pay tolls on every road instead. Or have to pay fees for police/fire/public schools

Search up the big dig here in Massachusetts, look at where your tax cuts with trickle down systems. Look at your education systems nationwide, look at your pay wage vs your cost of living. The evidence is right there.

The freedom to spend 4-6 years doing 16 hour semesters and late night labs.

I work in public accounting and during interviews picked the only place where the people there didn't remind of a pack of hungry dogs, and me a fresh peice of meat.

Sure, in tax season I work 60-70 hour work weeks, but in the summer I leave at 4:00, have taken most Fridays off, and took today off just for shits and giggles.

I work my ass off when there is actual work to do, but in the 7&1/2 months with nothing to do, I have a very very high quality of life.

Forgot to mention the best part is that I have vacation time comparable to someone in Europe, 20 days. Next year I will probably wind up with more.

European here, I started on 25 days holidays per year and gain an extra day every year I'm here. Currently I'm on 29 days of holiday allowance this year, but it'll cap out at 35 (company policy). Every time I hear things like you guys have no right to paid leave, I wonder why you haven't burnt every government and corporate building to the ground yet.

There's an American ideal of hard work equating to prosperity. the older generation especially would never take time off if they didn't have to because time not working is time wasted. The American dream and the American ideal is both a blessing and a curse. It leads to amazing work ethic, drive, and optimism that i admire, but as of now, it's unrealistic and we need to accept that. Too bad that this will require us to find our identity as a country and some have taken advantage of this already

Europe, and every other western country where it is government-mandated. You guys in the US get fucked over so bad =(

Ironic thing is if you work for the US government you get adequate time off. At least 20 days a year plus holidays and 13 days of paid sick time.

I agree, it is brutal... and I am not making excuses when I say that it is in some way, the cost you pay for living in the US... for some.

The American dream is a real thing; like it or not. Granted, the deck is stack more against some than others, but the reality is that life just isn't fair. That's a fact that won't change.

If you have the means, America is a bangin' place to be.

I see it as simple as this: The prize at the end of the rope provides a shitload of incentive... and there are untold ways to make a buck here. America was not founded on the idea of what's mine is yours. It is just never going to be that place; mainly because the payoff of the American Dream is so juicy.

AGAIN... I am not saying this is right or wrong. I am just a guy with an internet connection. What the fuck do I know.

Which slows down your economy and hence you see unemployment rates in the France at 9.2%, Italy at 10.2% and Spain at 15 fucking percent!

No thanks!

Source: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Unemployment_statistics

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It’s busy season.

Do you have sick time that is separate from your vacation? I’m at a start up now and I get 20 days, but it’s all vacation and sick time rolled into 1

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Jesus christ. Will you adopt me, sir? Or can I claim I am a political refugee?

Standard vacation time is 10 days in Canada, by the way. In my job I get no paid sick leave, although I don't knwo how common that is. Canada is better that the US in that regard, but way behind the rest of the western world.

My previous job was at a company founded by an MIT grad with Asperger's. He hands out Ayn Rand books to new employees. He brags he hasn't taken a day off in five years, not even for the birth of his children. His wife works there too; she brought the baby in to continue working just weeks after giving birth. Of course they are wealthy enough to have nannies to help and spare office space to breastfeed, but they do set the example like they want to.

His Ayn Rand philosophy guided him to give zero paid time off at his company. He says if anyone expects to get paid they should expect to be clocked in and at their desk. We have to clock out to use the bathroom, even white-collar professionals. Eventually HR told him it was illegal to dock the pay of salaried workers for going to something like an appointment with a doctor, so he grudgingly gave us the legal minimum of five days of PTO per year. Any missed hours over those five days gets docked from pay, even for salaried workers.

I know you didn't specifically state that you're a teacher, but do you have school year-round?

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Gotcha...your comment makes more sense now! I feel like it would be nice to have an admin salary, but I'm pretty content with not having to work throughout the summer. I mean, I still stay past the end-of-year inservice days and come in before the ones in August, but I basically have 2.5 months of the year to do fuck-all besides reading books and spending time with my own children instead of other people's.

This seems impossible. Is this the elite 1% scenario of vacation days or what? More than half the people in the US get 0 and those who get a week vacation and a week sick leave are in the minority.

How many people out of 100 have this spread of days in your country and what kind of work?

The US is the anomaly friend. Most other developed countries get a fair amount of time off.

In Canada its mandatory to have 12 vacation days or 1 day per 30 days if you work in retail. I just graduated and work in the private sector. I get 12 vacation days, 5 sick days, and 3 personal days. Also includes summer hours (finish at 3 on fridays from june through august) and flex time (come in later, leave later within reason). Not as good as a teacher but definitely not bad.

My work days are as follows: 7 days working, 2 days off, 7 days working, 2 days off, 7 days working, 10 days off. This continues in the same pattern indefinitely. I can always work out even in a year or 2 time when I'll be off and can arrange my life accordingly. I can also swap shifts with people if need be.

This is in the UK btw and it honestly feels like the 10 days off come around very quickly.

Wow thanks for the replies. Is this very common in the UK? Or <50%? This sounds perfect.

And u/Texturize do all teachers get this and even more? Or you mean summers off?

It could differ between provinces and/or school boards, I'm not sure since I'm not a teacher. Generally government jobs here have great benefits. By summer hours I mean my company sets the official working hours on Fridays from 9-3 instead of 9-5. My company is pretty lax though and depending on the manager, they usually allow employees to come and go whenever they like as long as they are performing well and it's within reason of course.

I’m in the steel industry so I’m not sure how anyone else works but our whole site works mostly on this pattern except contractors they get their own patterns.

WOw never heard of this type of system. What industry are you in? How can an employer afford to give you off so many days in a year?

I work in the steel industry there are quite a lot of us working in a shift so it works quite well.

How the hell do you people make any money for your corporations over there?

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Oh wait how’s that go? /s or something

This may be dated, but in the late 90s I worked for a French Fortune Global 50 company.

As one of our site execs on rotation from France explained it to me while they had more days off, they put in much longer days at the office compared to persons in equivalent roles in the U.S. He was at least 8 hours (plus lunch), and often 10 which was on the high side for our site...he said in France he was at the office at least 12 hours a day. Now as I said he was an executive which is part of the culture of long hours that might not apply as heavily to salaried workers, but I suspect it did at least at that time.

Now put that together with some of the other comments here -- folks in Toronto complaining about their 3 hour daily round trip commutes on top of nine hours work/lunch. I doubt you'd find the same percentage of folks in Europe with that long of a commute...which frees up time to work longer hours the day you do work.

And as others said, many European countries the benefits may be much greater in than the U.S. but the cash salaries are lower. Even for some of the benefits, whatever the companies are paying for taxes for public healthcare schemes are less than U.S. companies are paying for health insurance.

(And no, Medicare for All is not the solution; we in the U.S. have a serious lack of responsible adults -- notice all the people whining and complaining about their student loans, when most student debt is incurred at public colleges and universities which are the public institutions originally meant to expand access at affordable prices. Medicare for All is about as likely to curb our healthcare spending as the Pentagon is likely to reduce our defense budget. We need adults who put fiscal responsibility over feathering their nests.)

Having vacation and sick time seems like a recipe for getting your entire workforce sick by people choosing to come to work sick for fear of losing vacation time.

I am watching it happen in real time actually. The entire office is passing around some sort of sore throat virus (not strep) because everyone is a go-getter and wants to look good for their bosses. Me, I couldn't care less about it so I am about to approach my boss and fail their weird corporate test.

That's terrible. I worked for a healthcare company that had a similar culture when H1N1 was going around, had multiple coworkers hospitalized, one died.

Its a financial accounting/legal thing.

Some states require accrued sick time be paid out when employment is terminated.

Vacation isn't, unless there is a contract clause otherwise.

By classifying it as "PTO" (Paid Time Off) they don't accrue a liability to pay ex-workers like they would with sick time.

But to your point of coming to work for fear of losing a vacation day, how is it different than coming to work sick when you've already used up your 5 sick days even if you have 10 vacation days unused?

I'd take that in a heart beat! I won't get that much PTO until I've been here 20 years. My job has sick days, holidays, and vacation days all rolled into one. I don't think new hires understand how hard they are getting screwed. The standard for my profession is nine paid holidays plus two weeks PTO per year to start, and it goes up with time at the company.

I get nine days of PTO per year, so I work Christmas and Thanksgiving and all the other holidays. If I took the major holidays off, I wouldn't have a single day of vacation or sick time. Once I'm here for ten years I'll be at the industry standard for new employees.

Plus I don't get overtime unless I go over 56 hours per week. As in 48 hours is normal pay, then 8 hours gets credited to comp time (flex time), then they pay overtime if I go over that. They claim there is an exemption since our business is mostly on forest service land; they get away with it by claiming I'm not year round, I'm summer season and winter season so technically I'm let go then rehired every 6 months or something.

20 days is only half of most of europe though.

I'm guessing either a really small firm or you're currently at the manager+ level?

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20 days is 4 work weeks. Or do you mean 28 days?

I think I'll stick with my industry 40 hours a week where I leave at 5:30 every day...

feels like the higher up you go though, the more busy season expands and the less “chill summer” you have off. During my last year of public accounting I rolled off a winter year end where I worked 80 hour weeks, to a summer year end where I worked 60 hour weeks, then to interim where i also did 60 hour weeks, then back to winter year end. Definitely was not worth the pay I was getting.

Dude I've been in public accounting for the past 10 years. Busy seasons do suck, but you get used to it. Summers are relatively stress free and we're getting summer Fridays off where I work.

However, I'm leaving to go private for the first time! Excited and nervous at the same time.

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This is what I hope to find in a job and I hope our work culture quickly changes to this, it is so dumb they expect people 40 hour if not more at the office wasting valuable personal time because of a working structure that no longer is effective with the change in technology we see today. Let workers work from home and only require them to work untill they finish the tasks they are assigned and then set them loose. You will have a faster working more efficient work force and when those odd extra items pop up people will be more willing to take on those tasks since it doesn't throw them into ungodly overtime hours taking even more free time from them.

What do you do?

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How many hours a week do you work and do think that as a 27 year old this is something I could achieve?

I do frontend software development and basically do the same.

You can learn enough to get a pretty well paying job in six months (depending on your area). But learning is work. I think it's worth it if you can do it though.

A good place to start is https://www.freecodecamp.org/

edit: I don't have hours a week that I work, I have a yearly target to meet. People usually do the regular 9 - 5 though.

I'm all up for working hard for it. How long did you study before you landed a job? I'm pretty competent with computers right now, so I believe I might have an edge. I also have a massive drive to get out of my current state.

That sounds great, what sort of things do you work on, if it's not too much to ask?

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That's interesting. I would be looking to do 3 day work weeks, so 12-16 hours a day.

How long before you started earning decent money?

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Thanks, how long did you study before your entry job?

I have a remote job. I'm officially on the clock front 8-5, but it's my day. As long as my work gets done and I call in to all the same stupid meetings office people have to go to, I can arrange my day as I wish. I love working from home, though as a single person I do get lonely occasionally.

Edit: Syntax and grammar

Honestly hated college because i always had to do something. It is way better for me to have a couple hours just to myself.

Not gatekeeping, but throw a family in there and other misc. responsibilities that traditionally come "after college" and it's a slog even if it's not 100% the job's fault.

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Same for me. During school I’m usually in the library till like midnight/1AM. Then when I get home I chill with my roommates for an hour or so. When I work in my research lab during the summer I’m usually there 9-6/7. Then I get to chill for 6/5 hours and go to bed earlier.

Yup, same experience here. I have a very flexible job and time as well as money or hobbies. My quality of life has gone up significantly. When I was in undergrad I was broke and overworked.

I think that applies to a lot of tech stuff bar say more media oriented tech like Video Games where deadlines can be horrible and work hours inane.

There's way more tech jobs than people working in tech and tech itself seems like a somewhat light workload job.

Couldn't agree more, I'm currently in the last year of my Comp Sci degree. Between the long nights and countless hours spent studying, working on projects, and stressing about tests, the 9-5 job I worked this summer almost felt like a paid vacation.

Thank you, this gives me hope. I just want to earn enough, work as few days as possible, preferably remote with a company that respects my free time and be able to pursue hobbies.

My perfect job is one where if i do something fast, i'm rewarded with a ton of free time. I dread doing jobs where you can't work hard to do it fast..

I know it's probably unlikely but a chance is enough.

I'm surprised that more jobs like yours haven't been offshores.

Yup depends on your job and skilled - it's the people at the bottom rung of the ladder that suffer. For those in demand professionals, we can have it pretty good because we have options.

I'm considering continuing education into my late 20s via doctorate or medical degree so I can have a 40 hour work week and pursue shit outside the job.

It's not comp sci, but both potential careers could pay well.

Yeah but don’t tell that to the English lit majors who expected six figures right out of college

As someone in college, trying to work 2nd shift, take care of my newborn in the morning along with getting homework done, and then go to work, come home, to do more homework... My spouse works mornings, and there's no way we'd be able to comfortably pay for daycare. I'm an A student pulling a b-c average and always tired as fuck. Only 2 more years of this :/

My heart goes out to you. Dont even let the B's and C's get to you. You are putting in the work of a Scholar, Parent, Partner, and Employee. I know the stress doesnt feel like its worth it and I know what its like to be so "tired" a tired that never goes away and you just dream of a day where you can rest and sleep and nap... Those days will come you are building a stromg foundation not only for yourself but your baby and your family.

If no one has told you yet today, Im proud of you!

Oh, my wife is very supportive, and tries to let me sleep in on the weekends and focus mainly on school then also, all day. But thank you, I definitely am trying, but never seem to have enough time for anything.

Thank you. I needed that :)

Well at least you got time to complain on reddit

Yes, feeding my daughter/putting her to sleep, then it's to homework, followed by shower, work, then more homework.

I'm proud of you, too!

A little stress now for a happier life later, right? Just remember why you're doing it and push through.

As someone who just finished school with the same situation, it does get better. I feel for you; good luck.

When do you stop worrying about money? I graduated a year ago in the same situation, am currently making 22/hour and still feel like I'm barely scraping by.

TL;DR I haven’t and probably won’t until my wife gets a degree.

Well, to be perfectly honest, I haven’t stopped worrying about money. I’m making 55k(~26 an hour) in a city where MIT’s living wage calculator says 53K is the living wage for our family’s current situation.

I just graduated in June and we now have a one year old to go along with our almost 4 year old. I no longer have to worry about providing the basic necessities, but I do worry about emergencies and providing them with things that would help them learn/succeed later in life. “

My wife plans to go back to school next fall (when the older is in kindergarten). Once she finished that and gets a job, I probably won’t worry about money (at least in the same way).

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Fuck people like you.

Only 2 more years of this....LMAO! Adorable. You really believe that too.

Till I get my degree, and won't have to focus on school full time, I'm happy to be a parent and husband.

Whenever you get down just remember there is a guy out there who owns 2 300m dollar yachts and basically does zero work all day.

This is why it's so important to be finding out what you are passionate about. It's not work if you love what you do. In the same respect, not many people know what they are even passionate about so they settle for a job because they simply have to, so that they can make money and live on a daily basis.

It's a rough cycle between turning your passions into a career and balancing monetary concerns.

I love what I do, but full time still feels like too much for all the reasons above.

I think working full time, all the time, drains just about anyone after a period of time. If you love what you do and are still drained, maybe brainstorm some ways you can relieve some of the stress and find more time to do X, Y or Z?

It's ALWAYS hard to balance work life, social life and personal time/family time. There's just so little time after work, things have to be planned out in advance, it feels "forced" at times when maybe some days you would have preferred to do nothing since you are tired from the day or the week. Heck maybe even the YEAR was draining.

balance work life, social life and personal time/family time....those things are luxury items, only the rich can afford.

It's really not that simple. For 99% of the jobs out there, even if you're working in a field that you love, there's going to be stress, there's going to be monotonous work that needs to be done, etc. Not only does it still feel like work, but it can also drain the passion from you. Take your favorite hobby and start putting deadlines on it, start compromising it with client demands, link your financial well-being to it, and don't be surprised when it stops being fun and starts feeling like drudge work.

And that's assuming that your passion actually has real commercial value. There are tons of artists out there who are truly passionate about their art and would love to do it full time, but are stuck working other jobs 40+ hours per week because there's just not enough demand for art out there to keep all of the passionate artists employed.

For better or worse, the world only needs so many of any particular job, so if your passion is in already an established industry, you might have a tough climb trying to find a spot where you're happy to be and can pay your bills.

That "you'll never work a day in your life if you love what you do" proverb needs to die. It is just not true. I have tried it and only is true for a short period, and then it ends up nearly ruining what you love by turning it into work.

I'm happier now that I have a different job that I don't really care about and which is pretty monotonous, but gives me the free time to pursue my interests on my own time. I agree with the Richard Branson notion that work effectiveness and human happiness requires free time away from work obligations. Even if those work obligations involve work you love, you need time away from them.

THIS. I left my job in homeless services after four years because I could NOT do it anymore. I loved what I did. I loved seeing the lives of my clients change for the better. I worked in transitional housing, so being able to help people get back on their feet and off of the street and into permanent housing had so many rewards. But the burnout was REAL. My last two weeks there I put in 160 hours because of employee turnover and client needs. Yeah.

Now I work at a warehouse for an electronics distributor and I have been able to focus on myself so much more. I go to the gym 4-5 times a week. I started painting again. I picked up the cello after stopping years ago. I have my weekends back and I see my baby nephews every chance I get. Am I passionate about what I do? Nope. And it’s okay because I can do what I AM passionate about because I can leave my work AT WORK.

Some rich guy will say ok, fine, three day work work and three day pay. Good luck with that.

My experience is that there’s more nuance to it than that. I’ve also experienced working in an industry souring a particular hobby. But there are fields that are REALLY hard to learn about without working near a bunch of experts. If you want to dive into some topics you need to do them professionally, and the learning can be very satisfying.

(I tell you what though — caring about learning but NOT as much about the product is the way to go, in my experience. Enjoy the work, don’t sweat the product. Working on products you care deeply and emotionally about is awful.)

The phrase is basically a more jolly version of the slogan over the gate at Auschwitz.

As a flip side to that quote: If you love what you do, you'll learn to hate it.

Colin Quinn used to have a joke about that. Something along the lines of " I cant believe I get to do what I used to love for a living."

This is some of the WORSE advice.
What if your passionate about dance?
Most people struggle to make a living in dance.
Passions are great, but remember why you get a job. You get a job, to make money. The idea is to spend as little time as possible to make the money, so you can get back to your life.
Don't give up your Passion. Just don't assume Passion = Good Living. I followed my passion. I had to pivot.

You are assuming success in life is defined by money.... I have a job in which I go to work to make money... but I also go to work to make an impact in the community.... there are many reasons why I go to work... you can't tell me why go to work... it is for many reasons and I love what I do and I have grown passionate about my career over the years.

You failed where I succeeded. Maybe I'm not rich but I'm happy. I never once assumed anything that passion is good living and even reiterated that even attempting to turn it into a career is rough.

WOAH WOAH WOAH...
No. Just no. I never said that or assumed that, and actually the opposite is true.
Stop assumptions.
Money doesn't directly improve a persons happiness.
You say I failed to be happy? Are you kidding me? Are you that ignorant that you're going to ASSUME you know how happy I am?
I'm married, 2 incredible kids. My oldest son is incredibly well adjusted. He plays 3 sports at the highest level in the area, He attends some of the best public schools in the country in their advanced classes, and gets perfect grades. My wife and I don't argue (unless it's about what's NOT for dinner). My youngest son is healthy, and happy. I'm pretty damn happy.

My point was. DON'T just follow your Passion, if your Passion doesn't allow you to have a life your happy with.
Look at what's going on right now. People get these degree's in very poor preforming areas that have had very low pay, and then complain about the pay. Then to make life better for them, they advocate socialism... So they can follow their passion, and make other people do the work they don't care to do, so they can live better.

You said I get a job to make money.... I have money now. I still work though. Why is that? No need to get so defensive so quickly... the minor details of your life don't interest me

So you work to benefit your community? Do you draw a paycheck? WHy?

Yes, I do. I also volunteer at local nonprofits to help with taxes and go to a university every spring to help their tax clinic for low-income individuals. I use to be that low-income individual.

I don't understand why you work and take a paycheck. If you're working there and don't need the money, and it's a cause that you believe in; why?

Also, please don't assume anything about me. You'll probably be wrong. My all accounts statistically, I was unlikely to achieve what I have. Single Mother living in Baltimore City, I myself living in low income in Baltimore City. I lived on Wilkens Ave in Baltimore City. You probably wouldn't let your kids walk down my street.

Not everyone can do what they're passionate about either, otherwise who's going to clean the toilets? It's supply and demand - only a few are lucky enough to realize that dream.

I just joined a trade since I like building. 50 hour weeks on job I'm on and it's not bad, more or less 3 day weekend and I travel the nation building shit and site seeing like a big hairy tourist.

Well of course not, some things just aren't feasible and will just be more of a hobby if nothing else. The job market is going to get worse and worse as our population grows - we will definitely see more poverty.

I used to think that, but now that I work at what I love doing I find it's still work, I just don't hate going to work every day, but I definitely can't keep it up longer than 8 hours, sometimes I give up after 6, but at least my job is flexible that way. Work life balance is higher on my list of job requirements than salary these days.

Which then gets hit with the argument. "To many people are trying to do what they like as a passion and not skills that are needed!"

Really most people CAN'T do their passion. It's just not feasible.

Well of course not, if your passion is gaming 18 hours of the day and aren't entertaining, you'll never make it as a streamer. If your passion is hiking, it's pretty hard to get a job as a tour guide. The list can go on. Does that mean you shouldn't try? Does that mean you should just accept a 9-5 job call center job, or a retail job, or whatever life throws at you? Should you just accept the norms of what every other person does and follow suite?

You're not wrong, there are limitations that will not allow for some passions to be careers. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to do something you love as a career choice.

This is awful advice. It is better to find something that you just don't hate, pays well, and doesn't consume too much time.

Work to live, don't live to fucking work.

Enjoy your 9-5 cubicle....

I tolerate my 9-5 desk. I enjoy my 5-9 life and abundant disposable income.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat man. Except I love my job. I don't tolerate it... I enjoy it. I hated some of my jobs... did the same as you, tolerated it... but I didn't enjoy that lifestyle.

Sometimes - this just isn’t a realistic option. Some jobs exist that need doing, and it’s going to be something no one is passionate about.

My mothers advice was if you can’t find a job that you are passionate about, do whatever job pays the most, so you can afford to do what you are passionate about.

I used to think that. But too much of what I love would get me sick and tired of it. One of my hobbies are video games, I love video games and I think it’s a part of my identity. But I would never spend too much time playing now. I’d get bored and tired of it. It happens to many pro gamers as well, dedicating so much of their time to that make them depressed sometimes. I think just a healthy balance of hobbies and responsibilities is good.

I think too many people are mixing up passions and hobbies. Playing games by itself is a hobby. Being a streamer is more than just playing a game, you are also acting as an entertainer. If you fail at entertaining, no one will watch your stream, which is how many streamers end up.

I think you made an excellent point though and I'd like to add that over the course of time, odds are you will change and perhaps you will start to become dispassionate about something you were once passionate about. Overdoing something you love can definitely suck the enjoyment out of it, especially some days it feels forced.

There is definitely no perfect answer here.

All things you are passionate about turn to shit the moment you make it about money.

You some good points, and the tough thing that it can be impossible to "work your passion". And that's okay! At that point, it's more about accepting that your job is a means for funding your outside-of-work passions, making ends meet, and providing structure to your weekdays. I say this because I am pursuing the dream, high-paying job. But that's much due to the privileges I hold. My family is high-income and they value education, which let me hold unpaid internships while still being fed/housed/clothed. My parents paid for the countless application fees to grad programs (raised odds of acceptance). I don't have dependents, so I have time to selfishly pursue my own interests. I am smart (enough) to do what I love. I have no debilitating physical or mental health conditions. Aside from being a woman, my life has pretty much been on Easy Setting since Day 1. The vast majority of people without my education, familial SES, good health, and general level of privilege don't get the chance to pursue that.

Also wanting to add that "doing what you love and never working a day in your life" is total bullshit. AND THAT'S OKAY TOO! As a future shrink, I get to learn about the topic I love most every single day! I get to help people regain their lives and wellbeing every single day! I'm surrounded by brilliant doctors and future clinicians who are inspiring as hell. I am privileged enough to be able to pursue my greatest passion and make good money, AND I still work every. single. day to make that happen.

You can actually become passionate and enjoy any job you are doing. It's all about your own choice to be happy. "Doing something you're passionate about" from the get-go is a luxury a lot of people don't have. It's kind of a platitude that gets thrown around that does more harm than good.

Being happy is far more complex than "your choice"... not all of us are kundulini yogi experts that can have absolute control over the mind.

I don't really get what you mean - firstly, you have to FIND passion. You just don't wake up and have inspiration to go become a tax consultant for your local community to save people money. Nobody said it was easy. Life isn't easy. Life is hard. I don't know about this "luxury" part, either. I worked 2 jobs while I went to school, so don't tell me that you can't work hard to make your dreams a reality.

You and I are not on the same page or even the same ballpark. Feel free to ignore my comment and carry on.

This doesn't work for a lot of people, because doing something you love on someone else's terms can quite often make you fall out of love with that something.

It sounds great in practice. But what if what you love isn't productive or a moneymaker. You may end up hating something you love.

Then it's called a hobby... it's not like I said all passions are viable

But passion and profit seldom meet. Sure you can be very creative and make your passion a job, but that's very uncertain. Also, when you don't have time or capacity to find a real passion, it's not even a balance, it's just crushing.

Dude, change that shit. I work 9-5 plus 2 hours commuting. That still leaves time for hobbies after work. On the weekends my time is largely dedicated to riding and racing dirt bikes.

This is coming from someone who is lazy as shit and mostly plays video games during the week

as someone who recently graduated over a year ago, youre right to be worried. once you start working you can kiss hobbies goodbye.

What the shit? I work 40+ hours a week, still have time to do the things I want. I feel like you're not managing your time well. Usually, once I go home I'm done and can do what I want. In college, I'd get home from class, take a shower or eat, and immediately either go to work or work on homework.

I've got way more free time now. Weekends are actually fun and I don't have to worry about rushing to finish up homework on Sunday night.

What hit me the most is not the shrinking amount of free time I have, but the lower amount of energy I have for my hobbies outside of work . I do have enough time after work to have a great time(no kids yet), but I don't get to enjoy it as much. I spend my friday night recovering from the week and Sunday preparing my mind and body for the week.

I feel like working a normal week is like a marathon. I would rather do intense short sprints instead.

Never had hobbies. Always on the hustle. Love being busy.

And people wonder why the younger generation is depressed and anxious. It's like humans aren't designed to life their entire life working in an office.

once you start working you can kiss hobbies goodbye

I strongly disagree. Outside of extreme & unfortunate situations like working 2+ jobs or being single and raising unplanned-for kids without help, you can always make time for something like hobbies unless you deliberately choose not to.

I'm 29 now and most of my friends are married couples, some with kids, some without. I've seen all kinds. Kids or not, nightschool or not, full time jobs or not, pet owner or not, homeowner or not -- some of them have plenty of free time for the things they like to do, and some of them complain and bitch all the time about how they have no time anymore. I've got friends with families who play more videogames than I do, and I've got single friends who cannot even manage to show up to a hangout date arranged a month in advance.

Time management should be a class in school.

What did you guys do in school? I was way busier in college than with work.

That's very far from the truth. Even if you work 10 hour days 5 days a week (doubt it), and sleep 8 hours (doubt it), that's 6 hours of free time a day not including weekends. Sure you have to eat, take care of the things you have to take care of like chores, shopping, etc, more likely than not you have at a minimum 3 hours a day to do whatever you want. Are you spending that time doing what you want, or are you in front of the tv, laying on the couch on your phone, or complaining about it on the internet?

Just curious but what degree did you graduate with and what do you do now?

I found the transition from school to work really rough. I’m 3 years into my career and I’m already burned out. I don’t even know if I could last 10 years at this rate, let alone work until I’m 65 (or older) and raise a family. My hobbies are basically Reddit and Instagram because I can’t find the energy to go out and do anything after a 10-hour work day on my feet with no actual break. As much as I hated commuting to school, exams and assignments, I look back on all the free time I once had and it makes me sad.

I feel you my fellow unhappy person. I spent 2 years unemployed after graduating and now that I have a job it's still shit. We do living fundamentally wrong on this planet.

Really hasn't been my experience. Even in months where I've worked 200+ hours I've had time to workout, read, and study Chinese and CS.

Hey, not sure if this will help for you, but it did for me.

Find out if your job offers free mental health evaluations and/or counseling. Lots of jobs offer this these days and it’s a great reason to try it out.

I went through this same feeling after graduation, along with a lot of other stressful life events. My last year of college was one of the most exciting times of my life. In September, I moved 11 hours away from college, 7 hours away from home my girlfriend at the time. My relationship with my gf ended in spectacular fashion shortly thereafter, and life was REALLY stressful.

I went and talked to a counselor and it really helped me to sort out my own thoughts. Having someone 100% neutral, who knows the right questions to ask you so that you’re able to make sense of your own thoughts is extremely helpful. I haven’t seen my counselor in about 4 years (I’m 27, now) and I’m doing a lot better than I would have been if I hadn’t seen her at all.

Now, it really sucks to say this, but life continues to get more and more complicated, and your feelings and emotions will be tested time and time again. I read something the other day in a thread about advice from adults for college grads. The one that stuck out the most to me is that most people never actually feel like they have total control in their lives. Nobody ever actually totally knows what they’re doing as an “adult”. Everyone lives life day by day and learns in some way. One day you’ll feel like you have everything figured out, and the next, everything changes. You just have to roll with the punches, but know that most everyone also feels the same way at some point.

I’m rambling when I should be working... I hope that made sense and I hope it helped!

NOTE: I missed this by a day, but yesterday was National Suicide Prevention Day. If you EVER are feeling down and think suicide is an option, do NOT hesitate to reach out to someone. Anyone. If you can’t talk to anyone you know about it, call a hotline. They even have options to do this through instant message instead of a phone call if you want. Shit, you can message me and I’ll drop what I’m doing to help you out. People are ALWAYS willing to help when you’re feeling that way. If you feel like you may be suffering from depression, reach out to a counselor. Talk to SOMEBODY. Please.

It's the exact same with me. It's such a contrast from uni time, where you can make your own hours so to speak and to fixed hours every weekday and havin very little free time except two days on the weekend.

It doesn't have to be an office. This is why healthcare jobs are booming in academia and harder to get into. People would rather work three days on; four days off with evening or mornings (depends) instead if an office job.

I graduated 2 years ago and now have a job in my field.

An unexpected side effect of my job being so fucking close to my hobby? Now I don’t want to do the fun little projects because I already spent all day doing it. It’s strange. Should’ve seen it coming I guess.

My hobby is cooking and coding. So as a person working a lot from home (because why not) I can do both while having enough time to pursue my hobbies. The money I earn and the time I save not commuting is time that is extra.

Once (if) you have a kid, you'll wonder how you squandered so much free time.

Oh thank god, I thought I was the only one. Seriously, my depression has never been worse in my life and I have had some pretty bad moments. Even when I do get home and have time to work on things I actually enjoy I'm too tired and sad from working all day to do anything. My job isn't even very involved but it is emotionally exhausting to have to sit in a cubicle doing BS work for 8.5-9 hours (what happened to paid lunches?) constantly thinking about how much better I would feel doing something else. I am searching for another job but it would more than likely be the same thing just in a different place which is incredibly disheartening. All I want to do is write but writing jobs are apparently very competitive and I can't make a full switch to freelance work because despite how much I hate my job, it pays well and has insurance and I just can't afford to do anything else right now. I've never felt more trapped.

I graduated 3 years ago and I used to feel this way. Then this past spring I started running again. I used to run in high school and college and then fell out of it when working. I would run some but not everyday. Then this past spring I was going through a super stressful time at work and just forced myself to get out everyday. It didn't matter if I had to log on afterwards and work until 9 or 10 I just got my run in. it's been 3 or 4 months now of me in that grind and I'm in shape again and everything is more manageable. You will get better at work and balancing things but definitely take steps towards getting those hobbies in. Life is too short and they will be good for you in the end and make your work seem more manageable. Good luck with everything! First year out can be pretty tough but it gets better.

I have far more free time now with full time work than I ever did in highschool or Uni. If I wasn't studying, working on projects, or doing homework, I was expected to be in the lab. Undergrad was non-stop toil and grad school was worse. At least now I have my weekends, vacations and evenings.

So I left the air force a few years ago to go back to school and graduated back in December, and honestly, I've never been more stressed, more busy, with less free time then I've ever been. The depression is real and I'm right on the edge of going back to active duty. Recently started going to therapy and got on antidepressants to help. Never thought I'd need a pill just to go to work.

The trick is to figure out how to get paid to do your hobby. I was just programming as a hobby and never really considered it as a career until my wife and father-in-law suggested I go for that. My life is so much better now :)

Almost 5 years since graduating from college.

Last year I gave up a very cushy office job and good salary to pursue something that didn't feel as much like a 'soul sucking job'.

Sure, I don't have benefits anymore (luckily my dentist lets me finance my cleanings and stuff) and make quite a bit less than I used to but my quality of life has improved substantially. I wake up looking forward to going to work. I get to work outside and with wild animals. Currently working six days a week and don't really mind it. And most of all, I'm learning everyday, learning a very unique skill at that.

If I had to move out from home right now, it'd be a little tight and I'd have to settle for a basement apartment or something, but I could do it if I had to. But luckily I'm in a situation where I'm not being forced out the door and do enough around the place that my mother prefers I stick around for the time being.

I guess at the end of the day it's what do you REALLY want. If I wanted to do the whole wife and a few kids with the white picket fence and the two car garage and the modern SUV cross over, I'd certainly have to go back to doing something that didn't stimulate me. Something that errodes me internally.

Which is fine, some people want that expectation of a normal life, and they make sacrifices to have it. Currently have a friend who's not even out of his trade college program and is already admitting if he didn't want to get married, buy a house and have kids he'd likely pick a different path, but that's what he wants.

As for me, I just want to be happy with what I do for a living, and that's a personality thing. Even if it means, not owning a home in the next decade or not having the fancy toys and lifestyles many of my peers do.

Could I see myself getting married and maybe having a kid? maybe... But currently I just want to spend my late twenties/early thirties pursuing something that doesn't drain me mentally, but instead does the reverse.

I'm sure it hasn't helped my romantic life much, but it wasn't all that active in the four years prior to taking on this job anyway.

Even if somehow this job doesn't workout in the long run, I won't regret taking it at all. It has been such a rewarding experience and has taught me alot about myself and what I actually desire out of life.

Been on the workforce for 7 years. 40 hours in the office is just the beginning. I’m available 24/7. I’m working constantly. We all are. My company had to cut its staff and here we are trying to do with 80 what we were set to do with 100.

I worked my ass off my first few years out of college but they were great years. I was lucky to be working with a lot of other recent grads though...we had a pretty awesome happy hour crew going.

Not gonna lie, though...would've been tough without the Chicago bar scene (or similar). Drank way too much those years. We all did.

But didn't you know, spending your whole life working at a job and having to give up hobbies and miss out on your kids' childhoods is male privilege?

what did you study and where do you live?

What the hell. Where do you live when life is like this?

I graduated 13 years ago, its very tough to balance a life when I'm out of the house from 7am to 6pm, that day is gone by the time i get home clean and eat, and the weekends fill up so fast it makes me wanna punch myself in the face, but I dont see any alternative.enjoy college, every last minute.

To counter this, I graduated 9 months ago (to the day) and got lucky with a cheap apartment about 8 minutes from work. My hobbies are pretty much all still intact and I often work 10 hour days (lunch excluded). I get overtime, though, which is nice.

Anyway, my outlook isn't so bleak.

I wouldn't worry as much as other people are saying you should. I have enough time once I get home from work to prepare dinner and lunch for the next day, do some chores, either work on a hobby or just relax with the GF. It's not like life isn't full throttle for you yet, if anything I think it gets better after school. Minus the massive increase in personal responsibility.

Man, if you think that’s bad don’t have kids. I have an hour and a half to myself a day if I’m lucky, 3 on the weekends.

You’re jaded after one year in the work force? Oh boy you’re gonna have a sad life

I’m probably a few years older then you and I can see it in our friend group: It’s either work and money or time and hobbies.

Make hay while the sun shines!

Same. Use to part time shift manage (service pro) a red lobster and serve. I hated it because the money was so up and down the hours are wonky, and I didn’t care for the way the restaurant was ran in general, very dysfunctional. I switched to a desk job as a Fmla specialist going 830 to 530 m-f and I can’t stand it because it eats up my whole week. I dread going in to work even more now, which just blows my mind.

As some who also recently graduated, this is incredibly melodramatic. 40 hours, maybe 50 counting commutes, is not more than half your week.

As someone who recently graduated over a year ago, stop being a pussy. You have to work hard for a few years to work your way up the job ladder and provide a better life for yourself, that’s why you went to school dummy. But the real problem is not capitalism like the rest of this thread is suggesting. It’s the giant federal government which is taxing all the money you earned and then making everything you buy more expensive through regulation.

I feel like this is the opposite. I have a great job and commute ~40 minutes each way. Yet still have plenty of time to dedicate to my hobbies. It’s about managing what’s important. Maybe I spend less time on my hobbies than I did 10 years ago (when I graduated college) but I haven’t had to give anything up, actually I have re-picked up hobbies I gave up when I went to college.

This is depressing and seems completely true. I just graduated last spring but already put in a minimum of 65 hr weeks and get paid the same as my dad did in the late 80s - early 90s. Someone else mentioned that in a comment and I thought I was one of the few. Working life sucks, weekends are work also and no time with my SO. Hopefully it'll change later on for us

get paid the same as my dad did in the late 80s - early 90s

What was his experience level at that point? This means nothing if he wasn't also entry level.

He was entry level also

Graduated in June. Just started working full time, and it's really depressing how much of my time is gone. Like the first week felt slow, but the last 4 weeks have honestly whizzed by. Not in a good way, in a "each day is so insignificant and the same as the last" kinda way. The worst part is, you can so easily see how years just pass you by this way.

Its not the work, I don't want to sound like some disconnected millennial that hates work. Ive worked full time summer construction jobs, and though hard didn't get to me. Like now. It's just the sobering fact that this is indeed now my life. And it's the lives of billions of people, who only work to continue living so they can work some more.

Worked 5 years after uni for a company I hated. Got a new job to change things up, but in the end I just want more free time.

I think I even have enough spare time in a way, but just having every day be the same motions has drained me of any enthusiasm.

Get up, shower, tram, work, tram, home, bed, repeat. Need to pay all those bills while adding a pittance to my savings each month.

And yet we're luckier than most and it's the norm. It's like hell just got repainted beige.

Lol you guys think that’s hard?

I work in a shipyard as an all around tradesman for pennies on the dime trying to find the time for my CompE degree while barely being able to afford shit.

It’s getting old man, and so am I.

Wait till you have kids and watch you cost of living double in 5 years and your income stay flat.

I now work 2 jobs 1 as a tech worker and 1 as a gig economy driver.

In the end I work 6-8 days a week.

As someone who’s 31 and six years into my career it’s getting harder and harder to keep time for my interests. And I don’t have any kids. Taking a night class just because I refuse to go home and go to bed after work lol. Things just become more difficult to fit into your schedule.

This is 100% accurate. 32 and I work, wrangle kids, and sleep. I’m currently on a 3 week LOA for my second baby birth, and this is incredible. Really reconsidering the whole corporate america thing, I miss my old hobbies.

Its not just corporate America. I work in the non profit world and life is basically work, eat, sleep. I love my work but on 3 day weekends I get so sad that it isn't the norm. One day to truly rest, one day to socialize or run errands, and a day to prepare for the week.

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Have spent my career thus far in non-profit and I agree. I would actually like to see more over sight over non-profits personally.

100% agree. The amount of money wasted by the non-profit I used to work for was embarrassing.

Same here. The issue is never the amount of money but the distribution that's warped

I always thought that Why do we only get TWO days to recover from FIVE work days? It makes no sense.

The US has a serious problem here that is never discussed in that in modern families, unless millionaires, both parents work to make ends meet and have more (as society wants us to). Government (local and federal) tax us more and more. Everyone I know, has both spouses working (either both F/T and have to have daycare, or one is P/T and does some income from home).

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My schedule is odd. I work 10hr shifts. 2 one week and 5 the next. So every other week is like a mini vacation

What do you do?

I am a mental health worker. I work for the Canadian Mental Health Association

Lucky you, I work 10h shift for either 5 or 6 days. Only day I can count on is Sunday.

Theres a reason so many billionaire/millionaires have such large charities.

1) Good PR

2) Easy, legal slush fund.

3) Holding stocks in companies that SELL to charities means supporting those charities lines your pockets.

For example, Bill Gates has stock in companies that make Malaria medicine, so every time you see him donating X million to the charity he's actually just paying himself (raises the price of the stocks) and paying off his corrupt pawns who also hold stocks in that company (politicians and the like).

Source on the claim Gates has stock in pharma companies https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1021577629748680000

Been with a non profit for 15 months, agree completely.

I've seen people's lives brought to a standstill as they throw themselves against these archaic work week standards. Less work, done at the highest quality, has been a liberating refinement within my own non-profit experience. I sort of gear toward 4 mornings and select evening and weekend activities...why should effective and ineffective people's time be equal?

"why should effective and ineffective people's time be equal?" I 100% agree

This is why I work three 12 hour shifts a week and I’m done with it lol, I couldn’t stand spending my entire M-F at work.

I did four 10 hour shifts for about 2 years and it was pretty great. I now do four 9 hour days and 4 hour Fridays. Still pretty nice, but 3 day weekend every weekend would make so many people significantly happier.

We would all be more productive too I am sure.

When I used to work 10 hour shifts, I was working 8 on 6 off. Omg having a vacation every other week was amazing.

my brother has been working 12s, Monday through Friday for like the past 7 months, he works so many hours that he can't even spend the money he makes.

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he pulled in almost 170 hours in the last 2 weeks lmao I told him that they have to be breaking some kind of labor law.

I've been doing the 4 10's for 10 years now. It doesn't feel any longer than a 8 or 9 hour day, honestly. I'd say I couldn't go back to a 2 day weekend, but I usually come in on my day off for overtime. SoCal's too damned expensive.

Sounds like a nurse.

I'm almost finished with my RN program with one of the primary reasons being this.

Programming? Or what do you do?

Probably healthcare

4 on/ 4 off, working nights, omg all I had was free time. It was LUSH! I miss those hours now. :(

I truly miss this... Now I'm M-F 9-5..

Oof, that sounds horrible. I can get 8 days off in a row without even using vacation, I love it. Of course, by hour 10 I want to die and I don’t always get a lunch break but it’s worth it when I’m free for days on end.

Back when I worked in the airport I did this all the time, that extra time off really makes a huge difference in quality of life. Now it's hard to juggle work, family, health, sleep and fun. Guess which ones get neglected the most!

Definitely sleep and fun, and more than likely health too

Ding ding ding!

That would be nice. I’m mon-sat 8-5or6or7 (depending how busy we are).

I wish I paid more attention to my parents growing up, I would have probably been more prepared to not have a life lol

I loved three twelves but the weeks with four days were unbearable for me

I worked 12 hour shifts for YEARS. Nearly 16 all told. I recent switched from ICU nursing to a desk job and I’m a month in and I might pull my hair out.

That 12hour shift plus commute plus non paid lunch gets you near 14 hours of "office" time.

I just transferred to a job, within the same company, where they basically tell me I’ve got 14 hours to complete my day. They have been working the fuck out of a few of us to a point where we run out of hours before Friday, sometimes Thursday. Some guys will have 5 hours left, which is not enough to cover a days work. But they’ll try to get you in and use up those remaining hours. I, myself am getting myself into therapy. I and a few fellow coworkers are overworked and broken. I find myself waking up upset in the mornings now, and I honestly can’t tell if I’ve been taking it out on my family. If it’s a workday, I wake up in a blind rage simply because I know I have to go to work. Once I punch out, I’m a completely different person. I’m cracking jokes, smiling and dancing my way out of that place.

I work in the non profit world and life is basically work, eat, sleep.

Same. I work in college administration at a college that does trimesters and it's AWFUL.

What annoys me with my parents' generation is they feel a day doing 'nothing' is unproductive. I think that's one of the reasons I quit work, was because I had no time to do 'nothing', to rest and recharge. Used to have a 5day work week, I'll leave the house at 8/830am, arrive at work by 10. Then I'll leave by around 8 or 8:30. At that point I'll have dinner at home and just watch, as I'm too tired to do anything. I used to do part time writing work but even that was unsustainable as I'd be so tired every day. Then, Saturday morning is when I do bible study. Sunday morning is orchestra practice, then go home to shower, then leave for church in the afternoon, which extends all the way till evening. So I technically only have 0.5 days out of my weekend. Add to that that I can't stay out too late on Friday or Saturday coz of my morning commitments the next day. Ugh, some days you just want to do 'nothing'.

Those days when you're too tired to do anything but stare at the TV. You're too tired to invest energy into playing that game you want to, or to follow that book your reading.

Absolutely this should be the minimum standard

Its not just corporate America.

Its capitalism.

What are your other options? Starting your own business is more fulfilling but also way more work the first few years.

Moving to some kind of commune sounds not terrible sometimes, but then my kids will grow up weird.

As someone running their own businesses, there is so much extra work that you don’t account for.

You make it through the week by remembering that the extra work and sacrifice will be worth it in the long run.

Things are starting to get easier now and I’m able to take a more hands off approach. But the first two years was intense.

I'm, sure you know this, but Stephan Aarstol, owner of Tower Paddle Boards among other things, wrote about the work of starting his own business in his "The Five Hour Workday" book and had a personal revelation that can be helpful to a lot of people: People can oftentimes add to their own workload and stress when it isn't necessary. For example, one of his early business was selling poker chips online during the beginning of the texas hold-em craze. He was going daily to mail out the shipments. Eventually, he decided he was going to only send out shipments 2 times per week. No customers complained, and it freed up over an hour on each of the other days. Try to find ways to lessen your own load and automate everything that you can. It's still going to be work, but maybe those things will help bring it down to tolerable. Sounds like you are already getting there with the more hands-off approach, so good for you!

Perhaps you can cut corners in the commodities business but it doesn't exactly translate well to my business in construction where the work is mostly fine wood finishing. While I appreciate there are more efficient ways to run a business there isnt much automating my work. I essentially need to scale it by hiring good workers but they are hard to train and expensive. I have to put up with lower quality which doesn't look good for the business.

Maybe cut down the number of types of finishes you do. Get it simplified and profit.

If you have your businesses sorted out to where you are starting to have free time after only 2 years, that's impressive. You must be doing something right. The average is 5 years before a business is established enough to even start making a true profit.

It’s def not hands off yet but it’s to the point where I’m not doing the work and the business side. I can now focus more on running it and not so much on the physical labor. I guess things are starting get easier, it feels like I’m not doing a million things at once.

I got you. So you are now able to "work on the business, instead of in the business".

As a child of a father who took the bold chance to open up his own workshop (basically building machines but less cooler than what they look like in the movies) and a future mechanical engineer that’s probably is working there helping whatever I can, I cannot stress it enough. People think just because you have your own workplace you’re pretty much set.

Meanwhile I never had a single day off for the last 9 weeks because we have a lot of projects going at the same time. But this is not the worst part no.

The worst part is stress. You see when you’re working for someone, you don’t really stress as much as an owner. Once it’s weekend work is off your mind (generally speaking) but for a business owner you go to work everyday, you stress about bills and deadlines etc. It’s just intense af

Of all my engineering friends I graduated with. The one who works in his family shop, just like you described, is by far the most stressed. Since not only is he responsible for his designs but also keeping employees employed by bringing in work, training others, filling in worker shifts, etc. Obviously, it's split with the other family members running the business but still super stressful and he ends up working way more hours than I do.

Yep. I've started two companies (and served as a principle in two others). I've experienced complete failure. I've experienced tremendous success.

In all cases the stress was huge. The responsibility that comes with being a business owner is immense. You have peoples livelihoods in your hands. Every decision you make impacts everyone who works for you. They want to be able to provide for their families and you really don't want to let them down.

It's something you really have to experience to understand.

ya, I casually know someone that owns a pizzeria that's been trying to move to another location, lots of money/loans and it's like, you can tell from their body language they aren't rolling in money, they don't get the luxury of having a lot of time off, they need to be around to make sure things are up and running.

Like trying to fit 36 hours In a day haha I love it. There is so much though that people don't realize it's a lot of work. Keep it up!

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Yea it’s tough and taxes kill, def got to be saving up through out the entire year.

But if you're business is something you actually want to be doing then it isn't really the same thing as going to work and sitting at a desk. Also, there's the whole "the more work I do and the better I do it, the more money I'll make" thing that just doesn't exist for most employees.

It’s not something I want to be doing it just potentially leads to what I really want which is freedom.

I don’t have a passion for what I’m doing but I do have drive.

And Your right I do think the more work I put in the more I get out of it.

But when you take into account working 8 hours+.

Then having to go to store to buy supplies.

Set up for the next day.

Scheduling and contacting clients.

There’s times I’m not done until 10 pm , that’s around four/five hours that I’m not getting paid. Daily so yes it becomes a grind.

Like I said in an earlier post what keeps me motivated is knowing that if I keep my head down there is an end game which results in freedom and the ability to make money without having to physically be there.

But you have to be willing to sacrifice to get to that point, and willing to gamble on yourself because there is no guarantee you will ever get there.

There are trade offs in every path you chose to take.

Go to college get a well paying white collar 9-5 , you don’t necessarily take the work home with you. There are opportunities for advancement, almost guaranteed if you do your job well. But you will always have the 9-5 which scares me.

I’m 29, this summer I took my first vacation ,trip to Vegas, Of course it wasn’t 100% a vacation , I still had to make phone calls to clients , scheduling, etc.

But I was able to make money while I was away on vacation in Las Vegas. I had an aha! Moment where I felt accomplished and had the reassurance that it was worth it, because that is what I have been striving for.

Last year I made money but had to physically work and be at the job sites.

This year I’m going to make around the same , maybe a little more , but with far less physical labor.

That's really great to hear, I'm happy for you. You're in a position that I hope to be in in a few years. I agree it's definitely about the end-game freedom. Hopefully I'll enjoy the work I sign myself up for along the way.

If you have the time or you want something to listen to while you're driving/working I'd highly recommend the How I Built this podcast. It's about how a lot of businesses got to where they are.

Thanks for the recommendation, will definitely look into it.

The king run is no walk in the park. In the end, everyone dies.

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Kids weren't mentioned anywhere in the comment you're responding to.

Hmmmm donuts

Ha. Nice.

You never see socialism or communism rise until capitalism has gutted the middle class and left them starving.

Good on you for finding a solution during this generations crisis.

You grew up weird compared to your parents.

Every generation does.

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Well the guy who started WeWork grew up in a commune and he came out alright... and wealthy!

My parents grew up on farms where their parents were subsistence farming. They didn’t even have electricity. I live in a big fucking city and work with computers.

My youth was spent milking cows and shucking corn.

Times change.

Man, its the rest of society that's weird. Humans lived in "communes" for most of human history. Your kids would be normal compared to everyone else. A healthy communal upbringing isn't weird. Being a latchkey kid with overworked parents and no communal support system will produce weird children.

Normal is defined by what people are doing now, not a century ago. If you raise your child in a commune they likely will struggle to function in wider society and my never be able to leave the commune. Plus it was also historically normal to die of plague or deny women basic rights, just because we did something for a long time doesn't make it the best decision.

Unionizing is another option; there’s power in numbers. Making sure you get a lunch hour and go home at 5pm, and are not expected to or fired for not working over time.

Honestly where does it end???

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I've been trying.

Just gotta find a Walden II somewhere

but then my kids will grow up weird.

We all grew up weird my friend.

I feel like there's varying degrees of weird that maybe you're glossing over.

I feel like it is all relative, which is an idea that maybe you're glossing over as well.

Another option: move some place specifically for a short commute. Not high pay. Not low cost housing. In some cases, you gotta leave friends and family, but once employers can start building businesses in small-town America, they'll start growing those workforce in those places as well. My commute? 7 minutes. I work in an office. I could ride bike to work if I wanted, and I usually try to ride at lunch. My wife works from home. It's amazing how much time that frees up. It aint perfect, but it's certainly better than a low-cost housing area where everyone trades cheap homes for 2 hour commutes.

Where do you live?

Not in a major metropolitan area.

The real trick is finding a way to work together with society as a whole to create a more efficient and healthy work ethic within society that isn't a ludicrous grind.

I could see a lot of jobs turn into on-call technician work with the influx of automated services, always paying people same amount but having them on call to provide support when needed. maybe something like the same 9-5 but making sure they are responsible enough to know they need to be within the vicinity to solve a problem, so they could still do stuff around the house or even hang about the town but the moment they get a can they gotta act like the fire department and move their asses to the location.

> Moving to some kind of commune sounds not terrible sometimes, but then my kids will grow up weird.

​

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - J. Krishnamurti

Doing something in which you can freelance or contract, eg some kind of consulting or service, so you can largely set your own hours.

The admin for one person is doable. I recommend http://waveapps.com

Managing a business with staff is a whole different ballgame.

Yeaaaaah, like I'd totally live in a commune type setting for a period of time or if I decided to not have kids maybe even the rest of my life. But I think it's a shitty thing to do to raise kids like that, they need to be raised to have the option to be apart of the rest of the world. Not raised destined to be unprepared. I mean if you want to have a commune type living set up on the edge of a town and still ship your kids in for a proper EDUCATION and INTERACTION with OTHER PEOPLE, I could get behind that.

Get a job that let's you freelance or telecommute.

Kudos to you I don’t know how true parents do it. My wife and I go back and forth on kids because we’re so tired at the end of the day. Pros and cons.

This is one of the reasons I support multi-generation housing. Have more people supporting the local social unit so the burden on each individual is lower.

This is becoming more difficult as people live longer into years of poor health, but as healthcare and decentralized medical options become more available it allows for greater schedule flexibility and social padding. On the other hand, you'd have to talk to your grandparents/grandkids more often.

I think the precedent was set when a guy could work at a gas station buy a house and send his kids to college. Now if you live with your parents after hichschool/college you are some sort of a failure. So go work 60 hours a week live in an apartment and amass debt.

This. How many who still live at home feel they have to explain themselves.

“Not my business, bro. Nor is it anyone else’s. Good for you having a tight relationship with your family.”

Who the fuck was working at a gas station and owning a house, that was never the case.

1940 you could buy a house with less than 10000 hours of minimum wage, y2k was over 20000.

https://splicer.com/2013/12/10/chart-minimum-wage-cost-living-adjusted-dollars

https://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/census/historic/values.html

10k min wage hours in 1940 would gotten you 3k which is just 20k shy of a house. This is using the data you provided. Nobody at any point could be a 40 yearold gas station clerk and raise a family. Just stop.

Median home value in 1940 is $2938. $30600 is what it would cost in y2k dollars.

I’m 24, good college degree but at the bottom of the ladder, and I feel like this is my impending doom. Life seems so hard, and I don’t even have a lot of responsibility compared to most. I just have to worry about money for myself (which I definitely do).

Should I be doing anything differently? Would you have?

If you're in the US, look into working for the state or federal government. YMMV based on the agency but schedule is very flexible and I almost never ever have to work more than 40-hours (and if I do, I get OT)

​

Think of how humans have evolved up until recently (last couple hundred years). Working countless hours just to keep yourself and your family afloat is definitely not how humans are meant to live. We are wild animals tamed and made docile to go to yh copy machine do our work and go home. Don't stop doing that though, because then you'll be homeless and you don't want that! ...I know it's a lot more complicated than that, but that's just how I feel in a nutshell.

My wife doesn't work, we found we would be losing money with her working and day care. I work 15 minutes away but with 11 hours a day plus some because you never leave on time in retail sales. Come home, take care of the dogs, eat, hug and kiss the kids goodnight after seeing them for 30 minutes the entire day. Take care of the cats. Clean up the house a little somewhere then take a shower. I then have about 1 hour to spend with my wife or doing something I want before bed. I have about 3 to 4 hours of home time before bed unless I want to be tired the next day and stay up until 1am, which I usually do.

I asked for a week off because we got a 4 month old foster and needed time to adjust. My manager and GM said no so I said FMLA. My manager said I was forcing his hand, that it was ridiculous that I wanted a week off for having a kid that my wife didn't even give birth to, and he never heard of any employee asking for so much time off. He also said it was even more ridiculous to take time off because my wife doesn't work.

Man that's gonna be me in a few months.

Wow. Same boat. 32 with kids, mortgage, bills, retirement, etc. But you miss hobbies? Yo, you got babies now, that’s where the real tragedy of corporate America is. We exchange time with our kids at their youngest most precious age for time with our employers. Only to grow old one day and wonder where the time went? Hoping maybe you’ll be lucky enough to have grand kids and spend actual QT with them while your children slave away like you did.

My work too was draining me and thus all of my relationships and health were suffering. Almost divorced and in physical therapy for chronic back pain. Hobbies? Nope. Love life? No interest. Exercise? Whatever. Friends? Why? My work friends became my only friends.

I was on the brink of divorce (sleeping on couches and at hotels) and in chronic pain from poor life habits. Finally hit a breaking point and decided to quit my job and start my own consulting firm. Gave employer tons of notice, saved as much money as I could realistically, and jumped the fucking ship. Took some money saved and took a road trip with my family for 3 weeks while plotting business plans with my wife and co-founder over many miles. Had the time of our lives. Saw the country. Made memories. Now home and ramping up business but also taking time to be a dad and take care of myself and my relationships. I’ve got a lot of shit to straighten out but I’m way better off than I was.

I don’t know what’s going to happen day to day and I run the risk of burning out all of my savings. But you know, fuck it. My job had created a cage of fear that kept me a slave to an alarm clock while making someone else a lot of fucking money. Now I wake up when I feels. I make my kids breakfast, see them to school, and put work into something I’m proud of and that is my own. Even if I fail miserably, I know now what got me into trouble before, and at the absolute VERY least will have spent all of my savings spending precious time with my kids that I’ll never get back.

3 weeks? That's all you get in the USA?

Father's in California get 6 weeks paid leave to be used anytime over the course of a year. I took 3 weeks initially and am currently taking another week to cover for a lack of babysitter. Mother's get 12 weeks paid and a year unpaid.

In addition to California, there are only 4 other states with mandated paid family leave: New York, New Jersey, and Washington D.C. Washington state is supposed to have paid family leave go into effect in a couple of years.

For the rest of the country, paid family leave be it maternal or paternal is completely at employer discretion.

Like with so many other social safety nets that are basic parts of other developed nations, the US is embarrassingly, and due to the nature of our country deliberately, behind.

Oh, they’ll force you to go whether you like it or not. How about them apples.

I thought you weren't allowed to have hobbies in order to be a good parent lol

What are some good non-corporate options to make a decent living doing? Im trying to explore different things myself, and being Phoenix, non-corporate jobs are for the most part, non-existent.

I work at a grocery store and it’s the same thing. Life is work.

Reconsider! I am a stay at home mom and it’s amazing! We do loose one paycheck which makes budgeting a little harder, but we eat healthier, I take care of my kids and don’t need to rely on others AND we don’t pay for daycare. Most of my paycheck would go towards compensating me not being home so we are actually saving money in the long run. If you guys think you can swing it have a stay-at-home parent. I don’t think you’ll ever regret it.

I'm on a 6 week paid absence for our second child. I'm the dad. I'm having all these same life discoveries about how much all that shit sucks. As a family we've finally made it to a life style we can be happy with. Can walk our son to school, my job is a mile away and the wife is 3-4 miles. I was going to save a couple of these weeks for another vacation but after 3 weeks of getting used to it, walking my son to school every morning, I don't want to go back to work. I have 2+ weeks left and I refuse to think about the inevitable. But to the point of corporate America, without it I'd never be able to have 6 weeks paid off to be with our baby. But I'm not a fan of giving up 45 hours a week to work, including unpaid lunches and working Saturdays (banking)

I am 36 and going back to school to learn a trade skill. Holding a job not related to my degree. And I still find time to kill 4 hours a day in my hobby. I am only work 36 hours a week, 16 hours a week at school, 6 hours of travel for school and 5 hours of travel for work per week. Really it is about learning what your needs are and making them work for you.

In a few years once I am devoting my time to my new career, I will settle down and have a family. DON'T HAVE KIDS EARLY, KIDS.

I’m guessing you’re male. At 36 if a woman hasn’t reproduced, chances of her doing so successfully are getting drastically lower. This whole idea of wait until you’re fully settled does not play well with women’s biology.

I had my kids at 27 and 29 and honestly earlier would have been better in terms of energy levels and in terms of getting back into the workforce. I’m happily employed now but if I’d had them earlier they would both be school aged and more independent while I hit my stride career wise.

That's the beauty of being a man. A woman should get with an older man anyways since men statistically die sooner than his wife by 6 to 7 years. My grandma outlived her husband by 12 years and he was 10 years older than her.

Men's biology doesn't quit at 30 or 40. Barron is what, 13 and Donald is 72. So 59 when Donald gave it to Melania to produce The Expert. It works if a woman takes care of herself and stays healthy. It works if the woman is younger than the male by some degree.

Not all women need to be in the workforce. If the husband can't provided solely for the family and the wife raise the kids, then honestly... probably shouldn't be having kids. Unless you are doing a family business where even the kids are involved. But leaving the kids without a mother or a father is criminal.

Anyways congrats on the success.

I accept my biological limitations with regards to reproduction and I think that the idea that waiting until career is all lined up is a bad one because that’s not how women’s bodies work.

But you seem to think that means men should be with significantly younger women. Most of us have very little interest in that. (For good reason - outliving my husband by 12 years is definitely not something I’m interested in. Nor would I want to have a baby with someone whose age means they have significantly less energy than me, leaving me to care for the baby alone.) Only about 6% of couples in the US have the husband 10+ years older than the wife. Men may technically be able to reproduce longer than women but doing so is much more the exception than the rule. And yet, on reddit, this attitude of finding a younger woman persists.

Most of us have very little interest in that. (For good reason - outliving my husband by 12 years is definitely not something I’m interested in.

Seems you missed what I was saying, by a long shot. The man should be older, the woman younger. 8 to 10 years age difference is acceptable.

outliving my husband by 12 years is definitely not something I’m interested in.

No, I caught what you were thinking. But if you were closer in age, you could outlive him by by 15 to 18 years based on what I said earlier.

Nor would I want to have a baby with someone whose age means they have significantly less energy than me, leaving me to care for the baby alone.)

You seemed to over look what I said about the man is to provide for the family and the wife is to raise the child. Ohhhh but sexism. I can hear you screaming it.

Men may technically be able to reproduce longer than women but doing so is much more the exception than the rule. And yet, on reddit, this attitude of finding a younger woman persists.

Women don't hold up as well when they age. Men get better with age.

What math are you using??? I marry a man ten years my senior. He lives to the average life expectancy for men (76.3) I live to the average life expectancy for women (81.3). I outlive him by 15 years. If I married a man my own age, I am statistically most likely to outlive him by 5 years.

Your idea of a woman raising kids is fine if both partners agree to it. Your expectation that all women do so is in fact sexist. But it also ignores the fact that kids have better outcomes when they have two active, engaged parents. Dad helping take first steps, coaching little league, helping with homework, being engaged in his kids’ life means happier, healthier kids.

And both men and women slow down and acquire health problems as we age. Women can’t reproduce after a certain age. Children of older men are more at risk for certain birth defects. Men are at higher risk of heart disease. Women are more likely to get osteoporosis. None of us can continue to do what we physically could in our youth. Instead we get experience and hopefully the wisdom of analysis.

What math are you using??? I marry a man ten years my senior. He lives to the average life expectancy for men (76.3) I live to the average life expectancy for women (81.3). I outlive him by 15 years. If I married a man my own age, I am statistically most likely to outlive him by 5 years.

Math aside... Yes, as technology and health choices get better both life expectancies level out better. But 5 years is still five years.

Your expectation that all women do so is in fact sexist.

Nah. Just no..

But it also ignores the fact that kids have better outcomes when they have two active, engaged parents.

Oh sure, but in no way am I suggesting he doesn't engage in the child's life. Having a mother raise the child as her primary role and father financially providing allows both parents in acting in roles that will further the family bonds and set great examples for the child. But in no means does that excuse the father from the child's life. My father still managed to come to every soccer game, take me to the bowling league every saturday morning, go to church as a family and take me to scouts. My mother made sure I got up for school everyday, helped me if I needed help on my homework, was my Cub Scouts Scoutmaster, was the pianist for my solo ensemble pieces as well as the pianist for up to 15 other kids at the school, she also kept the order and cleanliness in the house. Maybe I was spoiled to have the kind loving and overly hard working parents I had growing up. Maybe it is an expectation that is hard to achieve and unrealistic in some sense, but both parents were active in my life but father was the primary financial provider and mother was the primary center of the family. She made it work, she made sure her boys had what they needed to be successful. It was mother that saw to it that I was up at 4 am every morning my high school years. It was mother who spent her days shopping buying food for the house, making sure her boys had fresh clothes and ensuring our medical was taken care of. Yeah, maybe it seems a bit unrealistic, but remember... raising a family is a job in itself and both parents play specific roles.

And both men and women slow down and acquire health problems as we age.

Sure, but mens sexual activeness goes on a lot later in life than womens.

Women can’t reproduce after a certain age.

Men can reproduce a lot later in life.

Children of older men are more at risk for certain birth defects.

Sure. But that is assuming the man drinks, has used drugs or lives an excessively unhealthy lifestyle.

Men are at higher risk of heart disease.

Men tend to eat unhealthier foods and not work out as much as they should. But the heart disease is preventable unless it is hereditary.

Women are more likely to get osteoporosis.

Yep. And also more likely to get cancer. Even in non smokers, non drinkers.

None of us can continue to do what we physically could in our youth.

None is a strong choice of word and it is false. I know a 80 year old man who still rides 100 miles a week on his bicycle. I also know children who couldn't ride 20 miles on a bicycle if they tried.

Instead we get experience and hopefully the wisdom of analysis.

Probably the most accurate, albeit incomplete, thing you said but all in all... it holds true. One can get better physically up to a point, but then as they age they can carry that experience and teach and train others. Musically though, you train and train, carry that experience and get better performing as you age. Very very few people are musical prodigies. Same goes with intellectual activities. Programming... one does not go in to programming knowing a language. It takes years and years to learn the ins and outs of some languages, but once you know it... you become proficient in it.

I think we are only going to go back and forth, but I think we can both agree to disagree.

Omg it's almost like our country is reliant on one sex raising the kids in order for the family unit to remain stable.

My friend had a stay at home dad. Mom is a very successful business attorney, and dad quit his old job after a robbery I think. Dude lives the Fucking life since the kids were both in highschool/college

I'm in your exact situation - 29 and 6 years into my career and I just abruptly quit my job because I am incredibly depressed and full of rage every day of the week at the hours I am expected to work. I make a lot of money but I work 80 hour weeks for it and I almost never see my girlfriend anymore. This has been happening since I was 23, and I see my director working more hours than I do and I know it won't change in the next 5-10 years. I'm not willing to live my life like this. My last day is Friday and I plan to make money by freelancing and then potentially going back to school, but for now I am going to take a 2-3 month break and do nothing. I am so incredibly sad and tired, and I need to heal myself before I even think about the next step.

Good for you I could never work that many hours. I make way less than I could but I still have some freedoms with the rest of my week. Good luck to your new path.

The key to having a life in your 30s is to just not go home (and not have kids).

I am 32 and work 40-50 hours per week for my job and have a couple other professionalish responsibilities outside of that. If I want to work out, pursue a new hobby, meet up with a friend, I just can't go home after work (or else I'll just crash) and can't go to bed until midnight.

31 with a 10 month old. I work 50-80 hour weeks and my original hobbies have been nearly wiped out. That said, spending time with my baby is more fulfilling than all of hobbies combined. I can get back into them once he’s a little older.

I never understood what people meant by, "I just don't have time for that," until I hit 30.

Now I don't understand how I was able to devote so much time to video games and other hobbies.

I think about this phrase all the time. I used to wonder “why would anyone ever stop playing pick up sports/video games/learn a new skill/hanging out with friends?” Now I see.

I’m about your age and have been working from home. It’s hard to find these roles but I really think this is the future for many jobs. Maybe not all the time but at least one or several times per week. Honestly I really kick ass working from home and some others do too. It’ll be an adjustment but disallowing WFH should really be the exception (for people who can’t self-motivate or communicate) and not the rule. Of course then you have to find other ways to meet people, which I somewhat struggle with.

I have a job with good benefits, but most weeks I wish I was fired because I would love to get out of this grind. But the benefits (time off, retirement, and nice pay) allow me to enjoy my weekends and travel and do my passions outside of work, so I can't bring myself to leave it. At least not yet.

You gotta do something you actually enjoy or it will feel like you are wasting time. I work in computer networking, and I feel like a champion when I solve issues and look at packet captures, and get to be sherlock holmes. I have solved so many complex issues with some of the biggest corps in the world, and it feels worthwhile.

Maybe some Arnold will help https://youtu.be/xoXYe9e01_Y

As a 30 year old, I for one have way too much time on my hands. Glad I became a pilot.

And if you have time for your hobbies, chances are good that you can't afford them. We're fighting a losing battle.

I'm 49 and 15 years into my second career, currently as a consultant. A whole day to myself to work on projects seems like an impossible luxury.

My wife suggested I take a couple of days when I turn 50 to meet up with old friends - fly 3-4 of us somewhere and just have a good time. After considering the cost and logistics (we're talking a consultant, a professional musician, and a lawyer) I proposed that I simply plan to close my consulting office for 4-5 weeks and let me do nothing. Or anything.

I love my work, and I love the relative freedom of consulting (used to have 4-5 employees, now I'm solo by choice) but - even without a commute/main street office - I'm still grinding out 50+ hours a week in the office, fifty weeks a year. I need to find out a way to say "no" to work and cut my hours (and income) back to 24-30 hours, for my own sanity.

I'm 1.5 years after graduating. I second this

For what it’s worth I have way more free time with my job than I ever did in college. Weekends are no longer spent worrying about studying/homework and you’ll have the funds to actually pursue hobbies and extracurricular activities

I was living off-campus with some friends in college, and even though I graduated a year before them we still lived together. It was funny how the dynamic shifted once I had a full-time job. Gone were the late weeknights, but it was so satisfying to be done once I was home, with no studying or assignments to do.

Yup and then you will have kids...and all of that goes away.

or not. it's an option.

Yup and then you will have kids...and all of that goes away.

  1. You don't need to have to kids.
  2. Even if you do, you don't have to lose all your free time. Too many people stick their kids into 15 different activities and spend every waking second bussing them around. It's moronic and unnecessary.

This whole "kids will devour your time and life" is overblown. Yes, a baby will require full attention, and that's what and when people talk about it, but it's only a couple years. After that, they're more like little minions who can help and participate in your hobbies. Once they start preschool or whatever, they'll be sleeping most of the evening, so the only time they require is the time in between work and dinner which I would have procastinated away anyway.

Bro i am and in college and feel the opposite. I just dont understand how i am supposed to work full time and go tk school full timw plus get my art work out there. I rarely sleep 8 hours during the semester.

Just can't waot to be done woth college ao that o can just focus on working and art.

it was the same for me. in engineering school i was working constantly and sleeping 4-6 hours per night just to keep my head above water.

graduated almost 3 years ago and have way more free time than i did in school. it does get better!

This is why I dropped engineering for environmental science. I went from thinking of killing myself I was so stressed to literally trying to find stuff to do. Then I ran away with the circus. I’m not quite a role model, but I was happy.

I wish I’d done environmental science. I met a guy who worked for DuPont and his job was to go on hikes and collect water samples. He said they were a shitty company but his job sounds right up my alley.

I also switched from engineering to environmental science, but I wasn't able to find a job like that.

They all either required a bunch of experience/certifications, or they only paid like $12/hr. I ended up working in pharma manufacturing for $15.50/hr. Instead of the picturesque hiking I was promised in college, I work in sterilized white rooms while getting covered in various drug powders. This job doesn't even require a degree, but it was the best I could find.

At least if I stick with this field for a few years, my degree could finally help me. I could move into environmental monitoring, QA, a supervisory position, or the lab, and make at least double what I do now. I just have to tough out the grunt work for a few more years.

Most Universities/Colleges don't actually want you to work during the academic year, it's why they make summers so long so you can work then. I'm not saying you don't have a reason to work but that's how the schools see it.

Bro how am i supposed to make 20k to cover a hears worth of tuition... And i would need another 15k for rent, bills, food' etc.

Thays 35k in a summer.

Not possible as a student.

You get loans that's what people normally do.

That's what I thought when I was in college. Then I realized how much free time I had compared to now :/

You absolutely don’t have to “kiss your hobbies goodbye”. I have way more time now than I ever did in college. Just keep telling yourself that you work to live, not live to work. If you don’t need the overtime, don’t take it. Go and enjoy yourself!

If you don’t need the overtime, don’t take it. Go and enjoy yourself!

No offense, but this is a very naive view of how careers work in the US. If you are salaried above 40k a year, there's no such thing as overtime pay or "choosing" whether or not to take overtime.

If work needs to be done, often you stay late to get it done.

how careers work in the US

I live and work in the US. Some people can either get all of their work done during normal work hours, or are fortunate enough to work for a company that understands you don’t want to live at work.

Once it hits 5, everyone in my building is gone. Most things can wait until the next day.

Some people can either get all of their work done during normal work hours, or are fortunate enough to work for a company that understands you don’t want to live at work.

Sure, but your post framed it like EVERYONE can do that.

In corporate America, it's probably 50/50, but there are tons of salaried 9-5 jobs around the country where people are regularly working more than 40 hours just to keep up with their workload to not risk bad reviews or writeups and without overtime pay.

In his/her defense, a lot more people can do it than actually choose to do so. Of most of the folks I know that are working themselves towards burnout, they could afford to work normal hours and not lose their jobs. But we are all taught to work hard and impress everyone, which for many simple translates to "work more hours".

It's a rat race they we're putting ourselves in. Most valuable employees would not lose their jobs if they started working normal hours. And the more that do, the more others that are less valuable and more at risk could eventually do that too.

I think there is this common belief that there are "workers" and there are "employers". No. We are all our employers and we all make the choice to live healthy lives or not.

In his/her defense, a lot more people can do it than actually choose to do so.

It's very hard to judge that tbh. It's very easy to say that people are putting themselves in the rat race and could realistically scale back, but it's incredibly hard beyond self-reporting to figure out how realistic that is for most people.

I've seen good workers try to stick to the 40 hour work week and get canned because they aren't busting their ass as much as fellow coworkers are, and I have friends who work from home sometimes and treat it as a vacation day and are fine.

The issue many times doesn't come down to whether a person can realistically complete a workload, but rather whether an employer will let them go if they fail to get work done because they stuck to 40 hours a week.

I agree. I guess the key thing is that time management and actually taking a second to prioritize are super important. I know some folks who's bosses seem to be constantly on their asses, but then when you dig in they are simply not prioritizing the same things as their boss, and instead are doing things they feel are important or are simply more tangible/real to them personally.

Bottom line is that 8 hours a day is a TON of time to get a lot done. But you have to make sure what you're getting done is what the leadership wants.

Sounds like you’re getting fucked, it’s mandatory for salaried employees to get paid their ot now. (Unless it’s just my state)

You only qualify for OT if the employer REQUIRES that you work more than 40+ hours a week and your position isn't an exempt position (eg, nurses, police officers, etc).

That's the thing. Most companies don't REQUIRE their workers work more than 40 hours a week to get work done. They simply let their workers workload increase passed the point that they could be expected to get it done in that time frame, and then can fire you if you fail to complete your work in a timely manner.

For example, I work for a school, and during parts of the year I typically work close to 60 hours a week. I could work 40, not get my work done, and then be fired when students/parents/staff complain because I'm not getting services out in time.

Similar here. Actually it's built into the salaried, exempt employee contracts here that plus or minus 2 hours of work every day is just a normal workday. Technically this means you can balance the long days by taking short days, but very few people can do that without getting side-eye from management for leaving early. Also the expected workload for every employee to take on just can't be fit into 6-7 hour days.

I've already decided that I don't want to be a workaholic and want a good work-life balance, so I push back whenever I can, and am good about not responding to work things during weekends. But even then sometimes things just.. spill over, and when it's high enough priority and your direct supervisors really want something done, you're essentially not allowed to say no.

What's naive is taking your experience at a bad company and applying it to all companies. I meet very few people who are working day and night putting in 60 hour weeks. Most people I know work 40 hour weeks and maybe a bit more during rough times.

It's almost like there are good jobs and bad jobs....shocking.

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Sorry to hear that! 60 hours a week sounds like hell to me. However, I’m sure you’ll bust ass and end up more successful than I will ever be!

I wish you luck, friend. Don’t burn yourself out.

Take the time now to develop your hobbies and interests. This is the most free time you will have BUT, set the time aside for the things you love. Also, there’s nothing wrong with taking down time after graduation to pursue a hobby before joining the workforce. I wish someone had told me that Source: 2 years out of college. Now working a 9-5

Yeah, I honestly wish I would’ve traveled more after college. Problem is, you need money to travel.

Hoping to get a solid couple months in of traveling before I start my next job. Whenever that is.

Good plan! I wish i had done that

Son (daughter) take heed of your own words because you’re righter than you know. Unless it is a profound calling, do not waste your day slaving to get a promotion, get ahead, whatever. Do good work in something that you like/love doing and have enough time for a life.

College student with free time?!

It’s called a Communications major.

Source: is one

I was an Econ major and I still had a ton of free time in undergrad.

I had pre med friends, engineering friends, all kinds of hard science friends. Everyone was out on the weekends and often had time to relax on weeknights too. The idea that kids in college have to spend every minute working is really not true, and that's good. I never understood the idea that a miserable life is the only life worth living.

Your anecdotal evidence is different than mine. I go to top 3 uni in my country and my friends either study and go to classes for 70h+ a week or fail hard and repeat years.

Yikes, we think that's why Asian Americans are much smarter and more globally aware than the average person in all European nations. The classic Asian American is one who is superior to europeans. For example, smarter and better than Poles lol

Well I'm Polish and that's how our top STEM universities work, so nah.

You compromise, you compromise ALOT and Ive been working for 2 years. I cant imagine being my dad or any other adult, how many compromises they mustve made because its how you made things work.

It depends on how you do college and your post college life. I had a long commute and worked my way through college, it got me through debt free but I had no life whatsoever. My single full time job and 15 minute commute is so much better in comparison. When my brother tries to convince me to go to grad school I have a similar feeling to what you are saying, I don't want to spend any more of my prime years doing 60 hour weeks with a job on the side and months between days off. If you get a nice steady full time job and don't need a ridiculous commute you will be just fine.

u/AnishUltra No clue what your field of expertise is but if you’re curious Seattle PD is currently hiring. Lots of money, great health care, actually insanely good healthcare $5 co-pays for damn near everything and tons of time off. They’re picking up tons of new hires fresh out of college and lateral hires. Look it over, best job I’ve ever held, I love it here.

You’re getting some negative comments, but keep in mind this can be an extremely different experience for you. I get paid a comfortable amount, work 40 hours per week, am single, and can afford a house and car.

A LOT relating to how much time you’ll have has to do with where you live. I live in an area with low cost of living. It’s not a city, but not a small town. About 150k live in my city. I drive 15 min to work.

You can have what you want. Don’t settle for less. Keep building your future, and don’t let the negativity here affect you.

Kids, mortgage and a car payment will turn you into a slave. If you want freedom, and you aren’t already wealthy, you don’t get it if you get those things.

Tbh it's not impossible.

I've found time to work, do CCNA courses, GM my Savage Worlds game, play video games, and do yard work/gardening, go shooting at the range, and go hiking with my dogs. All while working 8-5 M-F

Just wanted to give you some positivity to the negative comments you are very likely to receive. Generally these posts IMO will draw out a lot of negative confirmation bias and anyone who has a positive experience will be downvoted and told "that's not normal! Being miserable is!"

Don't get me wrong, I'd love a 9/80 flex but I can't say I'm unhappy.

It varies by what you did in college.

I have FAR more free time now. I've been struggling to find a hobby I like enough to fill the void. Though, recently had a daughter so that's taken up some time.

Honestly it depends on your priorities. You won't find the perfect job right out of the gate unless you're pretty lucky, but if having hobbies is what you make time for, you'll eventually find a job that will support it.

If your priority is moving up the career ladder and making more money, then yeah, you'll probably have to put a lot of that stuff on hold for a while.

Don't buy the narrative that you're "forced" to have a certain kind of work/life balance. In the short term, maybe. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. But long term, unless you're just not willing to change your circumstances at all (by moving, improving education, hunting for a better job, etc) most people are able to find something that fits their priorities.

You're almost in a worse spot too if you have any kind of student debt. I was lucky enough to not have much debt, but many friends of mine spent their 20s working two jobs and having nothing to show for it - just slowly paying down that debt.

Keep your overhead low. No need to buy new cars or live in a huge unnecessary expensive space. It’s tough with kids but I’ve found that I’m just not happy with the free time I have now. Trying to lighten my load so I can accept a lower paying, less time consuming position.

Right now I work 7 days a week and it is not worth it.

Assuming you land a job right out of college, not only will you have the time for your hobbies, but you'll also have the money to invest in them—assuming you know how to budget well.

Got an IT job that lets me work from home. Still do long hours but man, almost everything is more relaxing in your PJs

Depends on where you land with this job market, man. I was worried about that as well. I currently work 4.5 days/wk. 730am-5pm Mon-Thurs, 730am-11am on Fridays. Half-day Fridays make all the difference. It's a pretty awesome experience overall.

That being said, I'm currently looking at other opportunities, and absolutely none of them follow that same schedule. I'll be making more, but working more as well. If it means I can provide a comfortable life for my wife, I'm okay with it.

I'm in the same boat as the guy above and I can't even live on my own since half my income goes to medication and treatment

I don’t want to devote my prime to solely work and miss out on other opportunities.

sorry to say, but unless you’re very privileged this is what’s going to happen. enjoy your time while you have it, cause you won’t see it again for 50 years if ever.

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congrats on the cushy job? just because you got one doesn’t mean everyone else can. i was talked into burying myself in debt getting a liberal arts degree when i was young and stupid. i know it’s my own fault but that doesn’t make it hurt any less.

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you don’t have a CS degree? i’ve definitely considered taking steps to try to break into the field, but it feels hopeless between the fact that i don’t live in or near a city or tech-forward area, and that there are so many people out there who are infinitely more qualified than me and have the paper to prove it.

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thanks for the advice, i’ll look into some of those resources for sure.

If you think having a job is rough, having a child would destroy your world.

It gets tough, but with the dedication you can keep up with a few hobbies depending on your career. I agree though, we devote so much time to things that we often times aren't even interested in

Early 40s, finally gave up on the pursuit of money and moved to a small town with a tech telecommute role. Life is so much better, even though finances are tight.

I've found the opposite. I've had more money and funds to pursue hobbies and interests. Being in school I've found most of my time outside class being spent on homework, assignments, taking the bus.

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But working 9-5. You basically sign out for the most part and have money to pursue the things you like.

I am afraid to become like this so i plan on not getting any kids.

Families are expensive and time consuming, don’t rush in to marriage or kids and you’ll still have plenty of time for hobbies.

I have wayyyy more free time post graduation than I did in school.

Really depends what sort of job you do. If you go into finance or other really high pressured jobs, you won't have anywhere near the time you need for a proper hobby. However, if you're fine with lower pay and progression, you can still have time to do what you want.

You’ll have plenty of time if you choose the right job. I usually work maybe 45 hours a week max. I love my job and still manage to play guitar, write/record music, play video games, teach myself new things, etc all while being able to spend quality time with my SO and friends.

Gotta find the balance... my friends all work the standard 9-5 life Style living for the weekend. My shifts are varied... Monday I work 4 hours. Tuesday 9 hours and so on...

I don't usually work mornings so I wake up at 6 and do my chores. Take half hour in bed again with my SO and then go and train (triathlon). Then I usually finish work about 5 and train a little more and do dinner and spend time with my friends or family ect..

I'd say the only thing holding me back from doing more hobbies is the fact I've already got to many.

I am lucky that my job pays reasonably well (25 hour work week I earn more than my S.O who works 37). But I also don't waste money. My rent and bills are actually more than most in my friends but I don't drink much and I don't buy pointless stuff like designer clothes or countless new tech.

This all means that from part time work I have a healthy balance. Plus I can afford triathlon (it's bloody expensive) and atleast 4 or 5 holidays a year.

At least you have some lead time to figure things out before you start a career. When you get in that work routine, it is hard to stop and re-evaluate your life. Time moves by so fast... I've been in the workforce working the same job for almost 4 years, and I can't believe that is almost how long I was in high school, which felt like such a major chunk my life. The time I've spent working feels like nothing in comparison.

God I wish I could stay a college student my entire life. College was so enjoyable compared to life as a working adult. Best 7 years of my life (graduate school).

I’m still a college student with enough free time to pursue hobbies and interests, but oftentimes I worry about how little I’ll be able to after graduating. I don’t want to devote my prime to solely work and miss out on other opportunities.

Depending on where you are and what you do, it's fine. You don't have to worry about homework or coursework or studying, so it's wonderful when exam time rolls around and the weather is beautiful and you don't have exams. Plus if you're smart you'll live with your parents for several more years, so you'll have dispobale income and few overheads.

Then you have kids and that's when things really change, for awhile at least.

I'm there now and it's weird honestly. I'm working and I love my job, but there's no time for anything else, and it's not like I'm committing my entire life to a business I own or something I'm passionate about; it's just putting food on the table.

I think everyone goes through that mid-20s/early-30s lul where we don't really know what we're doing, just making money for our future and feeling existential. I could go for working a little less so I can work on making myself even more employable.

Ok, everyone is a debbie downer. But look at this perspective. It's just time management. I spend 8-10 hours a day 5 days a week at work. I'm still able to play video games, go to the gym, hikes and walks with my dog. I can't do them AS MUCH as I'd like. But i can do them.

Though i also dont have kids. I have a gf i do things with but you'll have time to do things if you make time for them. It'll just be a little harder than not working obviously.

I had the same worry when I was where you are. I think the key is force a strong divide between work and home. When you leave work, work stays there. Someone wants you to work extra? It's okay to say no. Want you to work on your day off or getting emails over the weekend? Read, maybe say you'll get to it first thing monday, or say nothing at all. Sometimes when something is really important and you can tell, buckle down and help get it done, but most of the time when its just BS, not your responsibility. You have to establish that as soon as you start working someplace. Now I am happy, I have time to do things I want (not as much as before but still enough), my employers and colleagues are happy because they know what to expect, and I am more productive at work because I allowed myself to take care of me. You can do it!

Prepare your anus, my friend. The modern working world goes in dry.

Recent college grad who just made that switch. It's awful. In college it felt like every day, week, month, or year stood out. Felt like I could do whatever, always had time to socialize....I don't know just felt better. Been working full time a year and a half now, felt like this time has just all melted together and if I think back on it the only weeks that stand out a bit are when bad things happened at work or my vacation weeks. It SUCKS.

It helps to live as close to work as possible. I live close enough to the casino I work at to be able to take a 15-20 minute walk to work, and going back I wall uphill so I get some good exercise that way as well. I realize this isn't always feasible, but it helps cut down on commuting a lot, and saves gas.

My mountain bikes have been collecting dust and rust for the better part of 5 years, can't seem to find the time or energy to ride any more. I miss it so much.

Life after college is a trick, don't fall for it, stay there as long as you can

Send help

Just keep on maxing out credit cards and declaring bankruptcy?

Get a job doing something you love...

I so terrified about becoming a drone once I graduate. I don't want to turn into a husk of the person I am now.

If you're athletic or want to be more athletic you should check out rock climbing as a hobby. Instead of slaving away at a gym you can climb for fun at a rock climbing gym. That way you're getting exercise and doing something enjoyable at the same time. It's also a great way to meet people and build relationships!

Then balance the choices. I took a lateral move to live 300’ from work with less stress. I put my 3 years into the higher stress and commute to lay a path to better opportunity.

People seem to forget they do have choices they make. Sometimes you need to balance them and also choose some lesser paths for longer term betterment.

People also forget the value of free time and also the cost of commuting. Some work for the better job to afford the free time and pay for the car/gas.

It’s not always easy. But sometimes reflect.

Graduated four years ago, savor the time you have now because being an adult fucking sucks.

Enjoy it while you in school because work is pretty much your life after graduation. I wish I spent more time on my hobbies in college

Some companies prioritize quality of life more than others. Be sure to pay attention to which ones do and consider what’s more important to you. Typically this means not as much money.

Sounds like u digging responsibilities of a adult...kiddo

Here's my $.02:

I have an awesome job that pays extremely well. I couldn't be luckier. That being said, I am paid hourly and only get paid when I'm actually producing (I work remotely).

Even with the extremely good benefit of working from home, I don't have time for many hobbies. Why? Because if I do something during the week I will miss out on: family dinner, family play time (2yo), bath and bed time with the kid, and then a couple hours watching netflix or something with the wife after a long day. If I cut one or more of those, I feel like I'm jeopardizing that part of my personal life: Husband/Wife, Father/Daughter, Family, simple higeine, etc. I've been able to fit the gym in a couple times per week, but that's sacrificing my work time.

15 years ago in HS?

3 season athlete, metal band shows every weekend, restored 2 cars.

20s?

Raced cars during the summer. Rebuilt them in winter. Studied MMA for 6 years.

30s now?

Lucky to get 2 games of rocket league in a week, 30 mins of jamming guitar while entertaining my kid (da nuh da nuh nuh... doo da doo da doo da doo doo doo)....in a week!

I'd love to start my own business...but I fear it would just make things even worse.

I don't want to see my kid's childhood pass before my very eyes.

Don't think working downtown and living in a major city is the only option - there are a lot of alternatives for people with skills - i.e. live in a smaller city or telecommute.

How do u find time for hobbies as a college student?? Magic?

Don't have fucking kids. Period.

Studying Marine Transportation here. Work 6 months for 14 hour days, then off for 6 months. Hooyah!

Sounds like you should read about FIRE

Get a degree you can use, don't live in an insane HCOL area, don't spend beyond your means so that you have to work crazy hours. It's really not as hard as everyone makes it out to be.

Hell, I felt like that during my first industry job with three-day weekends. But that was mostly because I would commute an hour to work 7:30-5 every day. I was grateful for my job but hated how mundane it sometimes could be for such a long percentage of my waking hours. I had many mini-breakdowns when I realized even my longer weekends weren’t enough to do everything I wanted and had to do. I also wasn’t full time, so no retirement or vacation benefits. I simply didn’t get paid if I didn’t clock in. Made me really sit down and evaluate what I want from my working life, and set a plan for how I needed to reach that.

Try to find a job in a smaller city. Toronto and Vancouver aren't that bad when you're young and can live in a tiny apartment closer to downtown. For a raising a family they suck, you'll have to deal with a horrible commute that will chew up all your time.

Graduated 10 years ago. I have a short commute, 30 mins total a day, max. But it's still 5, 9-hr days. By the time you get home, even if you have a hobby, you're exhausted and don't want to bother with it. AND you have to go to bed to get ready to do it again the next day. And I work weekends at a different job. So, my weekends don't really exist. You have a right to be worried. But it's not all bad, I can afford all my bills and I can buy stuff. I just never get to use my stuff. So, I don't buy stuff.

As a drop out I can say for a bit, I had more time, but now that I commute to work, I have much less. It's tough.

Love this comment.

Don't tell me how to feel.

I recently entered the work force after college and outside of a few things I’ve completely given up a lot of the hobbies I had in college. Once I have kids I’m sure I’ll give up the rest of them. Life when you are young is great. Enjoy it. But that’s not to say being an adult is all bad. I can travel a lot more now that I have money. The house and car are better, etc. it’s a trade off as is everything in life.

I'd say weekdays you can go home and do whatever you do at night (so going for a bike ride is a no, but video games is good).

On the weekends, you get to do whatever. And you have money! So you can do things you love, or pay off that college debt.

I'm a USA citizen. I work 40 hours a week. I only have weekends off. I don't really like going out on weekdays because then I'm too tired for work the next day.

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I personally don't make many friends because I wouldn't be able to hang out with them all. It's a good thing I'm a loner.

Devil's advocate, but I graduated in 2013, and I have plenty of time alloted for anything. I'm in the office 42.5 hours a week (37.5 hours of work plus 5 hours of lunch), and I live in a cheap area of the city I work in 10 minutes away.

Life is good. I have plenty of time to spend with my girlfriend, dog, and bunnies at the house I recently bought and work on regularly, and can easily game on top of that for 2-3 hours a day.

I drive an old car and don't have many recurring payments except phone, insurance, and gym, and I'm able to save a lot of what I make. I'd be able to live off of half of what I make.

It's seriously not so bad. Make smart choices, don't keep up with the Jones', and for God's sake do your best to find a city that has good jobs with short commutes.

Working 60 hour weeks in a sheet metal factory (we're supposed to do four tens, Mon-Thurs, but "mandatory overtime) I spend my weekends in bed healing for the next week.

No social life, just Netflix and touching myself.

Prepare yourself for disappointment then! Haha. Seriously, it completely sucks once you're out in the working world for all of these reasons.

This is not how we are supposed to go through our existence. Won't change unless the workers of the world demand it, and that will be hard to do because we'll be threatened with our livelihoods.

I loved all the time I had after graduating from university. In my first full time job now and I just don't have time for my hobbies anymore.

I leave the house at 7:30am, get back at 6:30pm. Have around 5 hours to do everything before I go to bed. That includes eat, shower, see my friends/girlfriend, go to the gym, do hobbies (music production, graphic design) and anything else... I've been there 4 months and I'm already worrying about the rest of my life in an office...

Recent grad and started career 2 weeks ago. Can confirm that you lose interest in hobbies and activities. All I want to do after work is go back home and watch tv or play games and crash. I live for the weekends. But when you get home at 6 it gets tough to actually want to go out and do things. I don't dislike my work but I have now realized how fast my time goes by now.

Stay in school as long as possible lol. Life only goes downhill from there.

It’s up to you to make those choices, but they will be genuine trade offs. If you’re full-throttle into career/money that’s going to take a toll. If you’re more comfortable crafting a middle class life somewhere away from the coasts where the cost of living is reasonable, you can build a life with time for art, music, games, friends, camping, etc. However status seeking, living in expensive cities, or having several kids can make it hard.

College is a great time to start looking at the kind of life you want. Once you have that in mind you can fill in the details as opportunities arise.

It's actually easier after college.

Just to give a different perspective. I'm 30, married, no kids and 7 years into a corporate business career in California. I work everyday from 8 to 5 or 6 feeling like I do something meaningful, get told I do a good job, and make a liveable wage. During work I listen to about 4 hours of different podcasts and get to learn about whatever I like. I am then able to either skateboard or swim for a couple hours after work, go home and cook and usually be eating by 8 with my wife and watch TV. We usually stay up until 11 and do whatever, but in general I get 5-6 hours per day of play and the entire weekends are free.

In college I used to be stressed out constantly worried about tests and homework. Weekends were never free because there was always studying to do and I had to keep track of 5 entirely different subjects at once. I would drink too much at night, sleep in, procrastinate, watch too much porn and generally waste my days.

I feel a lot better about life now, even if I work a 50 hour week. I do believe there would be benefit from taking 1 work day away, but in this global economy there is always someone to work harder and longer than the rest. It's hard to fathom complaining about long hours when possibly billions of people wish they had what so many of us have.

Location makes all the difference. Live near a job that is also near a great spot for in-person hobbies you could love. Losing a little money but not having a commute to work or your hobby spots is often worth it. Then make a habit of meeting new people because old friends are going to go afk over and over again. These two things will make you better off than most adult men at least.

I'm a college student with no time for things. Fairly envious.

Pick your workplace carefully! Don't sign up for a sweatshop; instead look for companies offering a true work/life balance. Where you work is completely up to you.

It’s up to you. Life can make it seem like you don’t always have a choice but, you do. Know your principles, honor them, and prioritize your time accordingly.

Also good luck in school and taking those next steps. College was fun but the real world is a fucking trip!

I am 4 years into the workforce (IT) after 3 degrees at college/university (8 years + 1y. hiatus)

And i am relatively happy now.

After the 3rd company that is. Management position. 28 vacation days/year. Worked the equivalent of 3 days x 8 hours = 24 hours/week last year.. 3 times a week i need to be in the office for 2 hours each (Team/Meeting time), no if's or but's about it.

Monday is a must, so is Friday, one day i can schedule. But I am expected to come in (if i fuck up, or my team fucked up and i did not catch it in time) and fix it until it is fixed no matter the time of day; or drive/fly out to a customer if i need to smooth over some ruffled feathers (happens about 3-4 times a year).

​

for the last year or so, i have basically managed to put in at least 2 hours per day monitoring my team (typically breakfast, early afternoon, before bed); every day, even Sundays, even on vacation. And i have not had a vacation be longer than 3 days in a row.

At the end of last year i was looking at more or less 150k USD (all and everything in) in northern Germany (business is over the border in Denmark).

​

The downside is, i am not able to live were rent is cheap, i need stable high bandwidth internet, you can't get that in all places here - they call internet #neuland over here); i need stable mobile networks (backup internet connection(s) and my phone bill is not the cheapest.

But I no longer have to commute really long times, no longer have to spent "downtime" at work, keeping myself busy with stuff, that in reality does not actually matter (neither to me nor the company)

I am happy, way more happy compared to the 5x8 required at the previous companies.

Most of this is due to having time to spent with my toddler and not missing most of the really important things in life any longer;

​

If i can help it, i'll never go back to 9-5 and if it needed to be i'd take a pay-cut by 2/3rd to keep that a reality.

If you get a job you enjoy you’ll be fine. I know I wing mind coding for 6 hours a day(after six hours the brain is so fried there’s no point working more hours) while getting paid

Be prepared friend, it's a big life change. If you are smart about your day and budget your free time it is totally doable. I'm 27 and have been out of college 6 years now working the whole time. I still have time to go explore on the weekends, go out for a bite after work with the girl/friends, and even play videogames some nights.

It's not nearly as bad as OP made it seem, his example is definitely the vast minority in my experience.

I was able to keep up with having a life until having kids in school. Obviously it's tough being an adult sometimes but until you have to worry about school districts and enough bedrooms you can be in an apartment in a shady area fifteen minutes from your office.

When I was a college student I was very responsible with my spending. Now I wished that I had taken trips with my college friends, spent some money on experiences together. Now we are all adults with busy careers across multiple states and rarely gets together.

Worry away. It won't help. You either get on the treadmill, or figure out an alternative that lets you avoid it... nomadic backpacking lifestyle, free lance development as a single semi-homeless person, military and then military contractor, or get lucky and write a killer app or inherit a bundle. Every now and then someone threads the work-life balance, but if you want an 1970's style, 8 hour/day, 5 day a week job where you can come home to your nuclear family and feel good that your 2-5 kids are going to have a better future than you... that ship has sailed.

This is why I found a job that pays well for part time. I get a lot of OT this way too. I'm a nurse for reference.

I was happiest in college. After I graduated with my degree I wasn’t making that much more, sometimes less , than my non college peers and Iv developed foot and back pain standing all day. Life after college for me sucks

Heh. I was able to until I got a family. Family and work means that interests get a couple hour a week alottment at best.

A lot of your out come is up to you.

If you don't want to have to commute an hour and a half a day, don't be dumb like OP and live an hour and a half away from where you work.

You are a human being. You should be able to think critically about these issues instead of just taking the first job you see, refuse to move, then spend the next decade bitching about how settling for the first thing that comes along is not ideal. No shit.

Act like you are going to have to answer to yourself tomorrow for everything you do today.

We're then expected to put in 9 hours (unpaid lunch)

That kinda snuck up on us over the past few years didn't it? Not too long ago, you were given a paid lunch.

It used to be a 9 to 5 job. Then it became 9 to 6 with an hour lunch. And then it became eat your food as fast as you can because you need to get all this work done since we fired your coworker. If you don't like it I know someone who can do this job and is recently unemployed. I bet he'd work for less than I'm paying you, he seemed desperate when I fired him.

7 - 530 with an unpaid lunch and 1hr commute both ways. 6 days a week. I have no life.

That's just insane..

Welcome to the life of a professional.

Well I'm a professional too but not making these hours and especially does not have this 1hour commute - which change everything I think. I have a 15 to 30min ride to work (as I don't work all the time in the same place). I love this ride in the mornings / evenings and its a small amount of time after all

I posted higher up, but I was so much happier being poor I think. Now that I'm in a senior software role I work a lot more hours and a lot of weekends. My commute when I go into the office is 3 hours. Luckily I can WFH a lot, but this shit sucks. I make good money that just goes to student loans...I hope it changes when I pay them off but I doubt it.

I used to have a ton of hobbies as well (painting, surfing, lifting, cooking). Now I don't even bother cooking because I don't have the time. Just order fast-food half the time and rarely workout anymore. Also, 10 days of PTO a year...really? I spend that shit on weddings and family emergencies. I'm lucky if I get 3-4 of those for myself for the ENTIRE year. Ugh... /rant

10 days?? America yeah? I get 21 in Ireland, afaik, unless you sign a contract saying otherwise - that is the minimum required by law. 10 days is unacceptable

Yeah, America. I'm jealous. My first job out of college 6 years ago paid wayyyyy less but had really good healthcare and 20 days vacation. Kind of miss coasting by there. It was unsustainable though after having to buy a new car and pay off loans. :/

That sucks man. Sound like there needs to be some reform there - there is much more to life than work, my goal is to become self employed and hopefully live a life where I'm not on a week to week paycheck. I'm 24 and already sick of it!

Funny thing is most people i know who are self employed it is even worse. Not saying it can't be done just be aware of the following traps.

  1. When you are self employed you actually gain a feeling that your input directly affects what you can get out...more, more, more.

  2. Even worse, you hire people. Now you are concerned that your input directly affects the livelihood of your staff.

It can be done but you need to have someone other than you, that you can trust for reality checks from time to time.

When you are in your 20's everything is possible.

When you are in your 40's you finally begin to realize that just because a thing can be done, doesn't mean it should be.
Peace

Thanks for your insight! I really appreciate it

anyone thats not upper middle class in America is arguably an opressed class because our labor and time is exploited for practically nothing, but we cant leave that shitty job unless we have a different one lined up, which is really really hard because the job market is so fucked that you have students with 4 and 6 year degrees working at Starbucks because they cant find anything.

the key takeaway from this is whenever you see shit about all these new jobs being created in america, theyre not white collar high paying jobs for the most part. theyre low paying service industry jobs IIRC. things are getting worse here.

A lot of companies in the US are switching to "unlimited" PTO. I put unlimited in quotes because it's gotta be within reason. My current company has this and it's great. I take off a few days here and there to get a nice long weekend and am still able to take a full week or two off a few times a year for longer vacations.

I think their reasoning is that they get happier employees and they don't need to pay out unused PTO hours when someone quits or gets let go.

I have unlimited sick days but god forbid if I actually take one. I got reamed in my mid year for taking 2 this year. It’s pathetic and very depressing.

Most first world nation's have at least 20 days. UK and Aus for sure do too, so I'm assuming Canada is the same. France has 30+! The US is fucking crazy.

My husband has 5. It’s disgusting.

Are you me? I moved halfway across the US for work and now I use 5 of my 10 days to visit family once a year, usually Christmas. Btw if you've never lived far away from two families, trying to see them all in a 9 day window over holidays with a kid and a lot of travel ... It's not a vacation, it is grueling labor. 2 or 3 vacation days more go to watching my kid on school holidays or going home early for events like plays. That leaves 2 days a year to squeeze relaxation in, like July 3rd this year to get the weekend and 4th off. That was my biggest break of the year, a 4 day weekend.

Also, every couple weeks the SO complains about how we never go anywhere.

830-630 with a 45 minute commute each way, assuming I don't have to shovel snow for 30m to get out and the roads are clear.

Three hours? Christ, where do you live?

We get 8 days of PTO each year, but no paid holidays. So either I work Christmas and Thanksgiving, or I take holidays and can't have a day off all year....

Aren't public holidays a thing?!

Only the government is required to observe public holidays. Private businesses can happily tell their employees they are working christmas day. Some will offer time and a half to make it sound not so bad, but it's not like the CEO is making himself work that day, it is only us plebs.

" I make good money that just goes to student loans...I hope it changes when I pay them off but I doubt it. "

​

I mean, it would be kinda silly to keep paying student loans after they are paid off.

Shrug. You're in a senior software role and can't get a role < 90m away that doesn't involve > 40 hours a week work on average, and has more than 10 PTO days? Shit, PM me a resume, if you're halfway solid I think I know 5 companies that would hire a solid senior engineer with 20 PTO, plus sick/personal on top, with a wage where you can afford to live close enough to not be in another country. LOL. I just find these rants hilarious when you're a software engineer.

Please tell me you at least make serious bank. Otherwise, what's the point?

~70k before taxes. Not really worth the loss of time honestly.

Shit. My condolences.

Haha thatnks. Whats crazy is when I was making ~30k a year and just getting by, I was happier and would have killed for the opportunity to make this money.

The grass is always greener lol well, with that knowledge, maybe you can find some remote work for slightly less money, or just a closer job to home for less money.

So get a different job if you're happy with 30k.

Company im currently with offers tuition assistance. Im working towards something better.

You're time will come. You're just paying your dues in hours and experience, before you know it you'll pick up a better position in management or work for someone else. Hang in there.

Appreciate that. It can feel REALLY pointless at times.

Just continue to be aware of your well being, and if it reaches a point where you truly feel like you gotta be done, then get the hell out of there. The short term stress of finding something new is so much more preferable than looking back on a decade of deep regret.

Yep, like David Chappelle said in that interview, name your price.

Here's that interview. The question is a little after the 21 minute mark:

https://youtu.be/iTzLJe5FJUg?t=1261

What do you make of it? Do you think the "price" is the hours/lifestyle he had to have before he makes a certain dollar figure? I always go back and forth on it.

Happiness is the shorter answer.

I don't have specifics on what his price is. But for myself it's usually situational usually boils down to the short/long term cost vs. the short/long term payoff. Sometimes I would miscalculate, more than often those don't go in my favor.

Not a problem, just a gentle reminder to take it one day at a time, meal by meal, and/or seasons by seasons.

we are in the same damn boat.

that's rough man, can you give a general idea of where in the world you are and what you do?

Engineering Technician in USA

So at least you must make decent money, right? I work the same hours as you (6 days a week and 8-10 hour days, no lunch or breaks) and I barely get more than minimum wage.

After income tax, you’re looking at about $14.70/hour.

If you include your commute, about $12.30/hour.

(I gave you two weeks unpaid holidays in that math.)

And then health, dental, vision, life insurance and 401k after that. I had the ability to purchase an extra week of vacation and that comes out of my check every 2 weeks also. (Mind you, Im not complaining about any of these I understand they are luxuries)

My husband does 70 hours a week for 49k. No breaks.

No one's forcing you to exceed to the national average combined household income, by yourself.

You're making a well paying, if not demanding job, sound like something 95% of the global population wouldn't prefer over their current situation of working equally hard and long, for a fraction of the pay.

I know the feeling

730-530 6 days a week, but with a paid lunch, but because it’s a paid lunch means you gotta find your own time to take it. Sometimes happens as late as 4.

Then a 2nd job I work 6-10 4 days a week. I literally have no life outside of work except for a rare day I don’t work at all

Hats off to you. Thats insane.

It’s cheaper than having my fiancée work as well and us having to pay for daycare. I figured I kill myself working for a few years till our son starts up school, then she can find a job at that point and maybe I can get a small reprieve in the hours I work

It’s cheaper than having my fiancée work as well and us having to pay for daycare. I figured I kill myself working for a few years till our son starts up school, then she can find a job at that point and maybe I can get a small reprieve in the hours I work

But it all becomes worth it when you see that shiny brand new car in your boss's parking spot

No joke, the old agency I used to work at had 5 parking spaces outside the front door and were usable by the directors only, unless they were out for the day.

The directors were a married couple who lived together. They commuted the 6miles separately in their OWN FUCKING NEW LAND ROVERS.

Pricks.

Not as bad as yours but I'm doing 8-6:30 half hour unpaid lunch, 1.5 hours total for commute then 5 hrs on Saturdays. 55 hr work week and about 8 hrs spent driving. I wish I could get away from this. I have a family and want to see them. I have no other options right now. I guess it's better than not having work but I do miss when my life was easier.

6am - 4:30pm 5 days, but I'm lucky enough that Saturday is 6am - 11am. I'm often here at 5am and stay past 6pm sometimes. Takes me an hour to get here and an hour and a half to get home.

Same here, work 9-7 with a little over an hour commute each way. Needless to say I barely have time to even cook myself dinner

I’m right there with you brother. 7 to 7 (sometimes 8) Monday to Saturday. Commute is anywhere from 15 minutes to 1.5 hours depending on what site I’m working at. I’ve started to drift apart from friends because I’m either too exhausted to hang out or I am working. Hoping to get out of this life in the next 5 years.

+- 60hour week. Self employed, no job otherwise. Better than nothing. Family must eat. No benefits

The rich get richer & work less. The poor get poorer and work more

I love and admire the idea. Just don't see it happening globally ever. Maybe in rich communities or the First World nations. Where people can afford the technology to spend more time at leisure

Bet you the 3rd world will still be slaving long hours to make rich people stuff to buy, just to get by

DING, DING, FUCKING DING.

Wow this is 100% on the money

I hate this trend of firing people and never replacing them. You just get double the workload.

At my work we use technology to know where you are at all times, not to be super productive. I failed my attendance for the week cuz I had two bathroom breaks(seperate days) that lasted roughly 8 mins each. We are expected to eat and use the bathroom in our ten minute breaks or the half an hour lunch. I’ve started drinking and eating less at work just so I don’t have to go to the bathroom as much.

Pretty sure this is encroaching on human rights... what the actual fuck is wrong With this world

Capitalism, my dude. The system is efficient! (/S)

This world? How common is shit like that outside the US and certain parts of Asia? At least in Europe I think we're pretty ok and it seems like flexible with arrangements (like 4 day weeks) and remote working are starting to become more accepted, even if it's very slow progress.

Work for Amazon?

Probably a call center

Australian call centre.

If this is the US you won't be working for long because you can sue the hell out of them for that

The job market in some areas is so hot right now, like mine. I had a guy we work with try and recruit me right in front of our President. Like he was so desperate for qualified people, he did not give one shit. It was very awkward.

Uhhh where and for what?

Engineering of any kind, and Portland, OR. But also applies to Seattle or the Bay Area, just cost of living is higher in those places compared to here.

But are they hiring entry level?

They're hiring everything. But demand is higher if you're experienced.

Fuck yea, let your president squirm. Poaching employees is called competition. They love it when employees are competing for employers, not so much when it's the other way around. He takes full advantage of the masses being desperate. You shouldn't feel at all bad about taking the best deal offered to you.

I don't, and won't, when it comes along.

Hope you explored his offer. Sounds like you could of gotten a great offer, unless you absolutely love your current job.

Most people just want to do their job and then go live their life. Perhaps 1 out of 10 actually want to work toward providing new revenue streams for the company (Price's law) and will put in the extra time. If you want one of those people, find them and pay them well. Trying to squeeze work ethic out of low salary positions in a country full of untapped opportunity is a backwards approach.

I strongly believe that management needs to be viewed more as a science these days. Too many businesses in Canada are struggling due to their top-heavy structure coupled with middle-management dinosaurs. There is so much opportunity for new companies in Canada with little to no venture or risk of failure due to most incumbants being completely incompetent. A well studied business manager would do well here.

Gosh this is too real. I’m new-ish to the workforce, and have been continually confused why all my jobs are extended beyond 9-5 as I expected

The New Efficiency! Brought to you by the 2008 recession.

But there just aren't enough people to do these jobs. We must hire foreign nationals to come do it at a lower wage!

Over here it most of time from 8:30 to 6:30 (to get to the max permitted by law without cashing extra), after 8 years of being in the workforce I'm seeing that the 9 to 6 is the standard (but we take min 1 hour for lunch). I guess we caught up!

My boss is trying to get us to work 8-6 for 'coverage'. He claims he's doing us a favor by 'letting' us have both a lunch and an hour-long unpaid break each day. We have told him he can't legally force us to be at work while not being paid. He suggested we should take advantage of that extra hour to talk a nice walk to break up our work day.

It's a constant argument where he won't say we have to take the break, but he also will bitch anyone out who isn't there at 8 or leaves before 6 or gets more than 40 hours per week.

I remember when an old boss, in the same year, moved us from 9-5 to 8-5 with an unpaid lunch, and then simultaneously started scheduling "lunch and learn" sessions with mandatory attendance - assuming he could buy a bunch of cheap sandwiches and make us work over our new unpaid lunch. I was a field worker at the time so I'd always find an excuse to miss those, but really I was not going out of protest.

And then they hire the new person that has no experience, and end up spending thousands of dollars training them, average training for an employee is like $3,000, just to pay them an hourly rate that's a dollar or two less. When they could have just paid you a dollar fifty more per hour. And it would have been the same at the end of the year.

This is if you have literally no skills. unskilled labour is certainly getting worse, but even slightly skilled labour is working for fewer hours then they used to at a higher pay.

It's like that where I work. Some guys eat at their desk. Fuck that. I go somewhere for an hour. Sometimes longer. I'm salaried so technically they can't really do anything (I hope lol). I get away with it because no one else here knows how to do my job, and no one is willing to learn. And i just act grumpy all the time so I think people are afraid to approach me.

I wish I could take lunch. I'm on salary and a manager, but it's so hard to get a moment to myself.

[deleted]

I agree with this. If people start asking why the work isn't done it's easy to explain that there is too much work to do for one person. It's the company's job to make sure there is enough staff for the workload. I never understood why people stay late to finish projects if they aren't being paid to do so. Commission? Sure. Overtime? Sure. Otherwise, see-ya!

Yep. Clock hits 5 and I’m fucking outta there. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mind my job at all, but I’m getting paid to be there 9-5 and thats how long I’m gonna be there.

When the work piles up and we start getting backlogs, we hire an intern for 15/hour. “Heres the coffee machine, heres your badge, do my busy work.”

Agreed. I read once that in Germany if workers work OT it’s a symptom of bad management.

A suggestion one of my (also crazy busy) coworkers made to me recently is to put lunch in your calendar as a daily scheduled thing. Obviously actual emergencies will take priority but other than that make it part of your schedule and block it off so no one can schedule you during that time frame for any meetings. This has made my life better (marginally at least).

“And i just act grumpy all the time so I think people are afraid to approach me.”

Ahhh yes I see you’re also a practitioner of the ‘Constanza .’

Seriously, I’m literally sitting in my car in a parking lot just chilling and redditing on my lunch break right now...I could take 30 minutes, but I usually end up doing an hour because...fuck it. They don’t like me leaving before 5 anyway, so why shorten my lunch..

I'm also salary but punch a time card and it's the worst of both worlds. I have to meet the 80hrs every pay cycle. If I don't, it comes out of PTO. Also each project has it's own time code you have to use.

Acting grumpy doesn't matter here, they'll send you a warning then kick you out the door. Hell, being irreplaceable doesn't matter to them!

What industry ?

Salary doesn’t really exist anymore. From the other perspective you probably wouldn’t want to work unpaid overtime.

They can ding you for it despite being salary, they just probably won't unless someone raises a stink over it or it is affecting the numbers that their bosses monitor.

Why be grumpy? Enjoy it.

Act grumpy. I'm a happy dude, but annoying coworkers piss me off and if I act grumpy they leave me be.

I admittedly don't always work 8 hours but I'm salaried and the contract doesn't list any hour requirement so I don't see the issue.

When my wife worked for bank of America she hated the hour lunch. She ate lunch in like 10 minutes then had to sit around for the rest of the time. She lived to gar away to go home.

Even if she finished early it was probably nice to decompress during the day.

Yeah probably. As much hate is Bank of America gets she still talks about how much she liked working there. She's been a stay-at-home mom for about 6 years now and talks about going part-time back at the bank when the kids get older.

Working at financial firms is often pretty nice, even for the low-level staff.

I hate my stupid unpaid lunch. I’m sitting in my office right now browsing reddit because I’m not being paid for this hour of work. Honestly, I’d rather work through my lunch and go home earlier. But I’m not given the option. Also, my office expects me to work through my lunch period. Um, no. If I’m not getting paid for it, I’m not working.

Ironically, this is the government's fault. The legislation says you have to take a 30 minute unpaid lunch break, by law, so they have to do it. My wife went through this too. She was so busy that she never had a chance to actually take her break and still meet her deadlines. When she asked her boss if she could just go home 30 minutes early he said no because it would be illegal to pay her for that time.

So damn frustrating. I feel for your wife!!

Are you by chance located in California? I have plant of employees that I'd love to let skip lunch and head home earlier. But my hands are tied by the nanny state.

Nope. I’m on the east coast.

My lunch is supposed to be unpaid but I bill it anyway.

I don't remember a time where a paid lunch was considered normal.

Why should a employer pay you to eat?

They pay me to go to the bathroom and drink water and wipe my nose if I need to too. Eating is a human requirement. If they want me to be there 8 hours, I'm going to need food. If they want me to only work 5 hours a day, then sure I don't need a paid lunch for that because I can just eat before and after.

Ah yis, gold rebuttle, and may I further prove this man's point by declaring:

Im shitting and getting paid as I read this.

PROOF OBTAINED.

If only you were a adult, seems like you want your job to be your nanny who feeds you, wipes you and cleans your nose. They pay you to do your job, you are allowed to use the bathroom and to drink water, they dont pay you for that.

I mean they hired a human and humans have maintenance requirements. If you were to buy a machine you can neglect it and not maintain but it will absolutely break down. If you as an employer fail to maintain your human staff they will also break down and humans can break down in a lot more creative ways than machines.

Not-so-upbeat, branch

They allow humans to proceed with doing human-necessary actions? I don't think doing those are a "privilege", they're something every human has to do I never said I want my job to perform those things for me. But I am a human being and if they want me to be there doing a job, I need to also do things required by me being a human.

Because you're required to be within a certain radius of your job due to time constraints. That hour that's supposed to be "your hour" is not actually that.

No you are not required, you can eat where-ever you want, this is a idiotic way to look at things because you are blaming everything on your job and not yourself for the choices you make. You can pick the job, you can pick your food, you can pick your location, you can say no to a job. If only food was portable or food was available to purchase in public, nah better have my boss pay me for the hour.

You sound like you've never had a job or had very lax rules regarding food during work hours.

Every single job I've had didn't allow employees to eat while they're supposed to be working. Said jobs also didn't allow me to skip or work through my lunch breaks either. So if I wasn't hungry, that's an hour out of my day that I couldn't do anything else with that I wasn't getting paid for. How is that fair on the employee?

When jobs with decent pay are as few and far between as they are, you can't just drop a job and get a new one solely because of rules about when you can and can't eat. You can't make choices that jobs don't allow you to make either.

Im a immigrant who started from the bottim and worked my shitty jobs and even at the worse time i was not a idiot entitled kid who expected to eat during work hours. Why would a employer pay you to eat during the time they are paying you to work? And then ontop of that why would that employer also pay you for your lunch break when you are eating during work hours? You are clearly a special kinda stupid and that stupidity is why you are confused about why you shoudnt get paid for your lunch hour, you want to be paid for your lunch hour while complaining about not being allowed to eat during work hours.

I'm not sure where you come from, but generally we don't try to treat people like cattle here.

Sounds like you've gleefully internalized the abuse and exploitation. How sad.

Say no, I'm sure the next guy will say yes.

Yeah, but it is still your time that really isn’t your time.

It is your time, is is 100% your time and you can 100% control what you do in that time. Your lunch break is a break to eat lunch and its usually a hour long, what kinda jobs are you literally making a CHOICE to take that you cant eat and take care of some stuff within a hour? Something not being your time means you cant do what you want during that time, you can 100% literally do what you want on your own time because you are a adult who is responsible for your own actions. You cant do everything you want in that hour but you are resisted by time itself and not your boss saying hey dont go to that town or dont go home at lunch or something, you are LIMITED BY YOUR OWN CHOICES not the rules imposed upon you by your work. So many adults who beg and are desperate to get treated like children, soon some of you are gonna ask for nap time at work.

If it was my time id be at home.

I’m restricted by the fact I have to be back at work in 30-60 minutes. I can’t go to a movie, I can’t go to the doctors, I can’t go grocery shopping. My work is making me stay near work with that time constriction, and it is not truly my time.

Found the boss.

Why should an employer pay you at all? Feudalism worked for so long, and the lords worked hard to earn their serfs

If you are selling your services to them then they pay you, you literally negotiate your pay and etc. you are free to work where you want and do what you want, if you dont want to be free and instead have someone take care of all your needs thats a whole other thing.

Yes, and child labor laws and environmental pollution and safety standards can all be wrapped up in this negotiation. All these laws only make us less free!

You're the very reason we had to create laws requiring employers give employees time to eat lunch.

In an ideal world we could leave employers alone and hope they'd feel some moral obligation to care for their workforce, but you're a prime example why we need to make exploitation illegal - as you don't seem to understand why it's bad you can't be reasoned with or expected to do the right thing.

Are you retarded? It's illegal if you don't give employees time to eat lunch, i'm saying your employer should not pay you for your lunch break. You make zero points and just keep saying omgerd you are bad because you dont wanna give people free things. Great point enjoy the poverty. Also exploitation is illegal you idiot, you just think having to work itself is exploitation.

Well, then we're in agreement. I get 30 minutes unpaid lunch by law.

You're saying i can work for Google?

I love this comment. The closest I've been able to get to this dream is by becoming a local sales consultant/outside rep in my state for a company headquartered in another state. I've been truly lucky to find a boss who is more results driven than activity driven and doesn't micro-manage. He once told me "I pull my weekly report every Friday night, and as long as your numbers and results are were they need to be, I don't give a shit if you're spending 90% of the week on the golf course."

Of course, I've earned that trust because I put the work in and exceed my numbers. Working from home means I'm able to do both school runs, attend all extra-curricular school events, enjoy breakfast and dinner as a family and also take care of some chores at home in the background (laundry, repairs, etc) which frees up the weekends. I also don't have to commute.

I sacrifice in other ways, such as working late at night when the kids are in bed, and in some ways it may be harder than a 8-5 because my work life and home life kinda merge into one and I feel like in some ways I never "leave the office". But because of the amount of added quality time I get, it's worth it to me.

With the advances in technology, communication tools, etc, shared meeting spaces, etc, there is absolutely no reason to make corporate workers have to commute 5 days a week and sit in a cubicle/office 8-10 hours a day. None at all.

It's just going to take that older generation stuck in their 70s ways of thinking to retire and die off before it phases out completely.

No man the old generation is choosing privileged young kids who think like them to pass the torch.

I'm 45 and still waiting for that old guard to die off. 22 years ago I had a boss complain that I wasn't "putting in the late night hours" at my first salaried job out of college. I just told him I didn't know what work I'd be doing that late at night. You know, because I got my work done during work hours.

It's like he just expected me to somehow show determination or loyalty or ... some other BS. And, of course, he mused "Maybe it's a generational thing because when I was just out of college I worked like hell to impress people."

Yeah, bud, it's a generational thing that I don't want to get screwed over like you've allowed yourself to be time and again. I quit that job after 1 1/2 years to work temp for the same pay. A year later my former boss' loyalty and determination got him and the rest of the office laid off. GG.

Working like hell just to meet some sort of workaholic status-quo is such a bizarre concept, especially when you are getting the work done. A friend of mine went into finance directly into this type of culture, and is completely burnt out 2 years in. He's making bank, but he says it's very cutthroat and behind the scenes, a lot of people are miserable trying to make enough money to keep up with that whole "rise and grind" lifestyle.

I can't wait until society as a whole moves to productivity based pay and not hour based pay. You give me a job to do and I get the same amount of money if I finish it in 4 hours or 12 hours? Yeah, most days I'm gonna crank it out in 4 and go enjoy the rest of my day. You tell me that I need to sit at my desk for 8 hours to get my full pay? Yeah, that project is gonna take at least 8 hours, and probably longer, because there is no benefit to wrapping it up quickly, and if I do wrap it up in 4 hours, you will just give me additional work with no additional pay...

I’m an immensely trusted leader where I work. I work for a relatively young guy, who realized pretty early on that he is going to be praised or killed based on objectives met. And so he made it abundantly clear that - like GP - I could theoretically be on the golf course all day IF that achieved objectives.

But someone in IT screwed up my account and I could only log in during banker’s hours. A year of working there, great results, a lot of satisfaction and everything is great. I finally track down and solve my IT issue, get 24/7 access. After my first 10pm email - which, similar to GP, was me stopping work at a normal time, doing family stuff, and then closing out one thing late at night - and suddenly I’m in the “committed club” where I’m working late nights and “all-in” for their success.

One 30 minutes late night close out while watching TV.

So, word to the wise, never underestimate kabuki.

Oh hell yeah! You can either complain and lament the ways in which image > performance in corporate America or you can leverage that to your advantage.

Similar story but evidently not in job responsibility. There is no “done” in engineering/technical. You can always be proactive and do more which unfortunately they begin to expect all the time which just isn’t possible w/o burnout.

I'm a software developer so I know there's no such thing as "done." When I was younger I would honestly be convinced by people like that boss that I must be lazy or not professional because I wanted to only work during normal hours. Over time I realized that's really the way to go exactly because of the burnout you mention. I'll put in extra time if it's really needed but it's imporant to pace yourself and set realistic, sustainable expectations.

Yea their children and grandchildren. My boss made his son a Program manager. A title that takes at the very least 10 years to attain in my field. The kid is in his mid 20s with zero experience...

Isn't this the truth. I'm 32 and I can easily do my job in 3 maybe 4 days a week. I do more work faster and better than the other people. My projects are always done before schedule too.

Yet I'm not committed and I'm too laid back because I leave early when I have nothing to do and don't work late, ever.

The person who gets praise heaped on him is there late and on weekends and "works hard."

Fuck that mentality.

Love the idea of this. When the work is done, you go home. The harder/faster you work, the earlier you go home with the same paycheck.

I was homeschooled, and when the day's work was done, I was done. If that was 8am-10am or 8am-8pm, it was my choice.

Imo, that's what salaried positions should be for. You meet your quota for the day go home and don't worry about your pay. Instead it's work fifty-sixty hours and get paid for forty. Now I'm hourly and do minimum effort for my forty hours because I have no incentive to do otherwise.

in the same fucking boat. we just caught up with our work and now expected to stay out the whole shift doing minuscule tasks, organizing or pretty much playing extreme home makeover for this small warehouse business. i don't care for it. why stay and help improve a place when they are paying me shit w/ no benefits plus no paid holidays. i can't even accrue vacation time. I HAVE NO INCENTIVE TO WORK AFTER MY TASKS ARE COMPLETED AND IT FRUSTRATES ME TO NO END BECAUSE I AM FORCED TO STAY JUST TO HAVE A FULL CHECK.

i apologize for this rant. my head is already checked out from this place and i am honestly one "bs work task" away from just quitting and hanging with my dogs the rest of the day, week, month and or year

I feel ya on this one. Don't get me started on holiday shut downs when we close the warehouse down... We work 5pm to 5am, and on the day before a holiday we will usually be done by midnight. Of course that means sitting around for 5 hours until 5am on the dot.

I still can't wrap my head around the stupidity of it.

I ran into this in the restaurant business. They would schedule a dozen employees for a banquet. Once all the set up is done, there is nothing to do. I quickly learned the art of looking busy while doing nothing, like polishing a stack of plates over and over.

The owner/head chef walked by and saw someone leaning as we had nothing to do but wait. He was fired on the spot. I was polishing a dish for the 18th time. It would get so bad I'd start rolling silverware and six people would show up and bust it out in two minutes. Thanks assholes, now we are all going to get fired....

Why don’t you get another job then? I am pretty sure I can guess why, but you should ask yourself.

currently holding out for an internship later on in my undergrad since its part of the curriculum plus live in a city where the average wage is 10.50 an hr. gotta love military towns

So how much are you making

Just don't fall for the 'unlimited time off' schtick that is becoming popular in the tech industry. Sure they say you can take off as much time as you want, but if you try to leave for a couple of weeks and use that vacation, they'll say you don't care about your job and expect other to do your work.

The main reason companies do unlimited time off is so they don't have to pay you for your leftover vacation days when you leave because technically you have none.

No no, you have to hang out in the open plan office and jabber loudly about fantasy football or some shit, to slow down everything else, because our workplace culture is soooooo toootallly awesome!

That's what I loved about being homeschooled, and college to a certain degree. I wish the rest of the world worked the same way.

thats how it is in many European countries. in italy or spain (cant remember which) you have to have a special permit to work on sundays. they respect the work life balance because happy, well taken care of employees work their asses off.

here though? welcome to america under runaway late stage capitalism, where it takes a 4 year degree (and all the debt that comes with it) to even throw your ball onto the roulette table that may just give you a shit job.

add the widespread attitude from older folks that our generation simply isn't working hard enough, we are entitled because we go to college, work really hard and expect a good job (totally unreasonable, yeah?) and spending too much money on avocado toast. Oh and dont forget the looming threat of automation, which i personally think will eventually cripple the labor market and skyrocket unemployment.

plain and simple, the future of my generation and subsequent generations has been sold out because career politicians and CEOs wanted short term financial and power gains.

You're really lucky. Most places still want you wasting time in a chair because they're paying you, regardless of performance. I don't think the problem will go away when people die, because those people are still breeding a whole new generation of morons.

It's crazy how rare it is to find a manager or a company that treats their employees like adults.

I worked on a corporate project that was geared around increasing efficiency in several of our markets.

The nature of the work being done meant that most employees could work remotely and it would actually increase productivity as we demonstrated in a test market.

People were happier, they had better production numbers, and were more responsive to emails and calls. They also had less turnover and it could technically save money by not having as many people taking up space in the office.

We asked employees in other markets if they would be interested in work from home, most said yes, except for one market that was clearly coached to say no by their manager.

The bosses hated the idea, but had to justify their dislike because the VP ordered the test market to be done in the first place. They were all boomers who couldn't stand the idea of not being able to physically walk over to make sure someone was working or ask a question. Even when we showed them their numbers vs the test market, they insisted it wouldn't work there because of a list of easily debunkable excuses.

We weren't even saying it had to be every employee that got to work from home. It was a privilege to be earned, not an automatic perk. There would still be a probationary period for new hires, production requirements that had to be met to be eligible, and regular, in-person meetings so the managers could actually see people and appear to be working themselves.

In the end, rather than employees working from home managers got employees laid off. All because they were too stubborn to embrace something new.

I’m jealous. The company I work for was run like this until recently. Recently they brought in a new Vice President with an incredibly old school management style. We went from being a very successful, family friendly, work from home, no overtime required company with literally zero turnover to a company that prioritizes “face time” and long hours (without any justification at all other than that he just feels his way is better and a good way to increase revenue.)

It has only been a couple of months but I anticipate that zero turnover rate is going to change soon. I find it completely impossible to understand - all he achieved was a drastic drop in morale and, soon, a drastic rise in turnover of highly valuable employees. Plus everyone hates him.

I’m butting against this at my work now. Trying to get just ONE day a week from home approved. Not just for me, for the office. I get “it feels like they’re getting away with something.” I answer with as long as the work is getting done, what does it matter. We know there are times people at work are just sitting around. Then I get “well then at least they have to be here.” I said that is the punishment culture that led to our fucked up prison system.

Must feel good to exceed numbers in sales :/

I chose my career path almost solely on being able to work from home and making a good salary doing so.

Working remote comes with a whole series of challenges that are 100% on you to figure out and it can be very tough. There are some psychological triggers that going to the office automatically does for you that you need to figure out how to emulate when you're working out of your home.

One of my big ones is never working out of my bedroom. That's a quiet, relaxation space and bringing work in there taints it for a long time. Conversely, it also puts you in a better work mindset when you go to whatever room you do handle most of your work in. By and large, you are the room you're in.

I also make a point of getting ready for the day. Sure, I could spend some of my days entirely in pajamas or my underwear, but it's not conducive to a good work mindset. I still have a morning routine to get ready for work, whether any of my colleagues will see me or not that day.

On the flip side, you need something to get out of work mode. If you have a dedicated work space, then just leave it when work's done. Spend however much time you need to stop thinking about work before going back in there to help you reset. For me, I have a personal computer and a work computer that have monitors side-by-side (and let's be real, I'd prefer to goof around on my own computer if there's a gap in my day). When work ends, my work computer goes off. So even if I stay at my desk because I want to relax on the computer, all of my work stuff and all of those notifications can't pop up and pull me back in.

I agree with you. A few comments for discussion:

It seems a big reason it works well is because of the results driven manager. Do you think it would be the same otherwise ?

A lot of home workers also mention that they go a little stir crazy.

How do you get work done if you had to do some during the day and kids around and what not ? Hard to close yourself off and just get to work.

I’ve worked from home for about 7 years. It’s not for everyone or every job.

Ideally the best option is to have both an office and ability to telecommute.

Currently burned out at working from home. Looking forward to going into an office again at my new job.

Here in Canada, thousands upon thousands commute 1.5 hours to work every day because we're forced to live far outside the city due to housing being so expensive. We're then expected to put in 9 hours (unpaid lunch), and drive the same 1.5 hours back. That's 12 hours spent devoted to our job every single day

This is what drives me insane.

I used to work in Mississauga but lived somewhere else. My commute was usually an hour, even though it was only 30 clicks.

I was not allowed to work from home at all, ever, under any circumstances because the CEO believed that people who worked from home are lazy. I still had VPN access though because if something broke off hours I was expected to fix it remotely...

So every fucking day I'd wake up, get into my car, get stuck in traffic for an hour and arrive at work to sit at a PC I could VPN into from anywhere in the world. It's fucking baffling.

95% of my work communications are email, and 4% are by phone. The other 1% are mostly meetings with my boss who tells me how important it is that I come into the office.

I hear you. I'm in IT and our company is owned by a parent company based in the US. I few years back I got tapped to do a lot more work for the parent company while still maintaining my spot at my current employer. So, despite the fact that I'm literally working remotely every day for the parent company, the idea of me just doing it from home is purely unacceptable in their minds. Insanity.

Baby boomers continuing to screw things up

Dude, there's ways to break the cycle. Become sick and start doing one day per week at home. Build it up slowly. Come to work late one day and early another every week so it disrupts the 9-5. Disappear for meetings and do your work in meeting rooms. Slowly you'll be able to push it out.

I work 2 days on, 3 days off-site. Off-site days are either at home (in another country) or on some nice place where I can enjoy the weekend as well.

Obviously I'm a dev, but this only works because there's a lot of trust on the team. People know and trust that I can get the job done and don't micromanage.

The flip side is that I really feel rewarded, and will put crazy hours if needed to meet some deadline. So literally everyone wins - I get the flexibility to enjoy more life, my employer gets to know that I'm there when needed. Trust is fundamental.

  1. Figure out how your company got to the point it has to be able to hire you.
  2. Mimic the same road map functionality.
  3. Hire people to run it and allow VPN from anywhere.

How long do you have left on your contract before you can switch jobs?

I got a new job a while back, one where you can work from home if you need to, it's a lot more enjoyable!

thousands upon thousands commute 1.5 hours to work every day

Get out of the GTA. (edit: Greater Toronto Area)

Best decision of my life.

alternatively, be ok to not live in a house.

My wife and I live in 690sqft for a very affordable rent, and we can both walk to work.

Renting would only be preferable if you're also able to save more money over the costs associated with a house + extra commute expenses, or if you're not planning on being in the area for more than ~5 years. Otherwise home ownership is preferable for that sweet sweet equity.

You're only considering finances. You're ignoring the quality of life improvements gained from shaving so much time from your commute. What is the value of free time?

The point of life is to maximize happiness without treading unreasonably on the happiness of others. I believe the next rennaisance will come when we realize that our finances should be the means to an end of happiness, rather than our finances being our end.

You're only considering finances.

I constantly see this hailed as a virtue on Reddit. We're all supposed to work as hard as we possibly can 9-12 hours per day, choose what we study based solely on potential income, avoid any and all leisure or luxury activities, and commute an extra hour each way every day so that we don't "waste" money on rent.

When do you live your life?

we're both choosing to live our life on reddit right now lol

You obviously have to find a balance based around what you want to do, and if your dream requires the goods and services of others, how much that's going to cost. If my dream is to open a restaurant with my wife, but I'm $250k short of being able to finance it, I can forego being part of some urban zeitgeist and live a more modest life in pursuit of that goal. Conversely, I don't think it's fair to say that all people living in anticipation of a future goal are wasting their time - is it so bad to say that I don't want to be working when I'm elderly? I think the only real pitfall is if you find yourself living with no purpose whatsoever, choosing only not to choose and to only react to the immediate and essentially just "survive".

I think what most people end up doing is save their money, and wait for later to do what they "really want" until their kids are grown and then they retire and immediately die of cancer.

* ^which ^may ^evaporate ^at ^any ^point ^due ^to ^economic ^factors ^outside ^your ^control

That all depends on how you time the market which no one can do with any certainty. We bought our house in 2012 for 70k. We listed it last week for 175k and already have two offers at full asking price.

So while we are a success story it was pure luck and built on the back of a tragedy as the previous owner purchased it in 2007 at 160k and short sold it to us due to the recession.

Your success also depends on the condition of the home and your personal finances. There are tons of costs associated with ownership that you don't ever see as a renter. AC goes out? Not your problem.

Even if you don't have an issues while living there selling a house can cost. My friend had almost 20k in appreciation on his home after 8 years. Tried to sell it. His best offer was 15k below his asking price to compensate for a new roof. Closing was pending an inspection that turned up foundation issues that he had to come out of pocket another 10k to fix before they could sell. So not only was his close delayed almost 6 months but he actually lost money on the house after appreciation.

Pay raises aren't matching the astronomical rise in home prices let alone inflation. It's an easier said than done situation I think.

Home ownership requires a down payment or you get screwed on PMI which makes it harder to get equity in those 5 years. It also requires affordable housing to be available in the area, which in the areas with decent schools for your kids is surprisingly difficult to find. I can't afford to drop $100,000 for a house even if it is better in the long run.

Nothing is worth the scenario OP described.

That's not really a possibility for everyone. I work in downtown LA. An apartment that size down there will cost you more than $2k/mo. It's not at all worth it. I suspect it's similar in most large metropolitan areas. The closer you get to the heart of the city, the more unaffordable housing becomes.

NYC resident checking in... 2k/month is goddamn steal!

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We lived in Queens NY since '91, starting at $600/month. Left the apartment and bought a home in Long Island in 2008. When we left, the rent was $950/month. One bedroom, one bathroom. Good place, but millions upon millions of roaches and rats!!

It'd come with the caveat of not being in a great neighborhood, for sure. Most 500sqft studios run around $2400/mo within 2 miles of my workplace, and part of that 2 mile radius would encompass skid row. My commute is terrible, but I only pay ~$1600 for an apartment that I like that's a little more than an hour out of the city. Totally worth the trade IMO.

I was referring to OP's 690sqft apt that is in walking distance to work. You'd have to pay at least 4k for that in Manhattan where most NYC'ers work.

Not in NY or LA but St. Paul MN for me to walk to work for a place like that would be about $1800/mo.

I think people are becoming ok with more than 35% of their income going to housing

How do you tap dance in an apartment

That would require my job to be in an area with decent schools. I pick where I live based on the education it can get my kid. I need to move in a couple years cause the schools at that grade suck.

Greater Toronto Area for the rest of us

I thought the idea was to get out of the GTA V and dedicate that time to sell real state.

This is what I came here to see. There have to be areas where you can go that aren't this bad. Yes, the job opportunities will be different, but quality of life can still go up a lot. Many of my friends face the same issue in the U.S. in big cities - I don't live in those areas and am therefore able to save a lot more and live comfortably. I'm happy.

The solution is our own decision - no one else's. There is no given right that prices and commutes will be held constant in a specific area and so we have to move when it makes sense. It's not easy, because distance to your community, family, friends, etc. will all be impacted, but that's the only remaining choice.

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Hey if you can all the more power to you.

And go where? The jobs are in Toronto.

For 13 years I commuted an hour and a half to work. I worked 6 to 6 also, so I was there all day. One of the best things in my life is living about 15 minutes from work now. I still work 12 hours a day but at least the commutes fast. I'm still psyched about it!

The mode of commute helps too. I had a 30 minute walk and it was great. Gave me some me time and I could just decompress.

I used to commute for 4 hours a day working downtown. I bought a house in Kitchener and got a new job and now I ride my bike to work, which takes 20 minutes. My job is so much less demanding and it just feels like people aren't willing to kill themselves for their work over here, but it could just be the company I'm with now. I've joined clubs and I'm doing shit once a week that I used to only dream of doing. I've lost a noticeable amount of weight in a short amount of time, I'm so much less stressed, and my hair has hopefully stopped going gray (at 27). I have enough time each night to do a bit of work on the house and usually play some video games. I honestly never realized how much my quality of life would increase just getting out of that fucking city.

Fuck Toronto and fuck all the corporate bullshit that Toronto stands for.

Yes, the "here in Canada" comment is very GTA. People sure like to make fun of Winnipeg but I drive 12 minutes to work and it's not really close to home (bus would take an hour with 3 transfers).

I knew immediately they were talking about the GTA. There's traffic in every major city, of course, but at least in Montreal, Ottawa or Quebec City you can afford a decent place to live near work.

Or more simply, don't live in the GTA and work in the other side of the GTA. Live close to where you work.

I did the exact same thing, moved to the ottawa valley with my SO, she works in nuclear, i work as a PC on base up here. Commute time 20 mins both ways, everyone is out of work by 4 (I get every third Friday off). First couple weeks I didn't know what to do with the extra free time and the extra energy I had from not working to the bone and then commuting for 1.5 hours. My job will actually reimburse me if I purchase a membership to something that promotes healthy living (I did yoga and a gym). I may not make as much as i would back in the GTA but cost of living is so much lower out here that it makes up for it and actually having a good work life balance is well worth it. What's the point in living in a big city with a lot of things to do but never having the time to do any of it...

This is about where I'm at. I love Toronto but goddamn if they don't make it as hard as possible to live a life here

Depending on what industry you're in you're kinda stuck. Advertising outside of city centers of note (Toronto, Vancouver) are satellite offices that don't do any work of note.

Yeah good lord. I'm in Edmonton, make good money and only commute 15 minutes each way. And I'm not exactly close to my office

You know how i feel i work 12h a day (plus unpaid lunch of 30 min) 5 ou 6 day a week even sometimes 7 days.. getting sometimes yells at by customer all of this while trying to move in a week so i pretty much have no sleep, imnso tired and i eat scrap cause i dont even have time to eat sit and see friends and family i dont know how many day more i can support this.. at least this winter i will have less works .. thanks for letting me post that "how i feel crappy, pragraph" its nice to speak about it even if no body respond or react.

Hang in there man

Hope everything gets better for you

Keep your chin up. It'll get better. It has to.

At some point i have been told we get to eat the rich, i have high hopes about that day.

All we can do is keep trucking for the time being. Just don't let it beat you down too much. No job is worth that.

Please at least eat well. Hearing someone describe themselves "eating scrap" is pretty heartbreaking

Hang in there dude. You got this.

Being unemployed with government provided healthcare makes that time in unemployment tolerable. It isn't that way in the USA. Also in the USA. Work hours allow for 8 hours between shifts that means the minimum between the end of one shift to the start of another shift of the same job is 8 hours.

Ya except I don't really have healthcare either. My kids can't go to the dentist, or the eye doctor. They could get a checkup. Or if we had something serious happen we could go to emergency and get diagnosed, but then almost certainly the treatment wouldn't be covered since most prescriptions aren't.

The superiority of Canadian healthcare is greatly over-exagerated. I think I'd rather theyd let me keep the massive amount of taxes I've paid for it over the years and buy my own insurance.

Honestly as someone in the US fighting my insurance company and the hospital over a bill that is 10 months old I would still take what you have. I already don't use doctors or specialists for anything other than emergencies because I can't afford to go even with a reasonable copay. And when I did actually need my insurance one time they continually reject it, saying the hospital is submitting it wrong. But the hospital is saying they are submitting it correctly and it the denial forms come back filled out differently.

Meanwhile the hospital bill got sent to a collection agency and now my credit score is taking a beating. Sorry, just venting.

I think you guys have the worst part of both systems. You have these titanic monopolized insurance companies alongside these horribly bloated and inefficient social programs like Medicare. Ironically I think you're almost there. Obamacare could work if they would fix some of the underlying issues with the high prices and monopolized insurance industry. Countries like Switzerland have an Obamacare type thing going on and it works far better.

I don't think you understand how price setting works in the healthcare market.

"Monopolized" insurance markets are not the problem. Actually, the larger an insurance company is, the more negotiating power it has to lower prices. Smaller insurance companies have higher premiums and higher out of pocket costs.

This is why the largest health insurance provider in the US, Medicare, also has the lowest costs per procedure. In European countries that do not have single-payer healthcare, there are usually strict price controls on healthcare providers to counteract the negative impact on costs. The US, however, has to deal with the one two punch of private insurance and almost zero price controls.

these horribly bloated and inefficient social programs like Medicare

Don't buy the Republican propaganda on this topic. Medicare has higher patient satisfaction ratings than private insurance does, and it's more cost efficient too (it controls costs better and has lower administrative costs). And some of the issues it does have, like not negotiating low drug prices, are the fault of Congress explicitly prohibiting it.

Medicare is actually a very efficient program. The only problem with it is the inflation of costs of everything in medical care because insurance pays a percentage. Medicare has to pay those costs. But if the government could negotiate as a whole the way single payer countries do, they could bring those way down.

No matter which working system you like from another country, we have a version of it in the US. Government run hospitals like the NHS? We have the VA system. Private hospitals with government paying the bills as in Canada? We have Medicare. Private insurance mandate with government subsidies as in Switzerland? We have the ACA.

And none of them work in this country.

Hmm. That's very very interesting - I never thought about it that way. I've always wondered if these things just become hard to manage based on size and diversity alone.

America is one of the bigger countries, by population, on Earth. It's also extraordinarily culturally diverse. You can go anywhere in Canada and people are pretty much the same. Contrast that with the differences between someone from New York and Louisiana and it's pretty much night and day.

What does that mean? Maybe Americans should start looking to their local governments for social safety nets rather than federal?

One massive problem with it. Regulation. I have no problem with making healthcare available to everyone. Just prices for everyone shouldn't be the same. If you have already had three heart attacks and are 200 lbs overweight you should pay more for health insurance. You shouldn't be denied but you are at greater risk, and last time I checked actuaries aren't just bullshitting mathematics. Probability and statistics are still important. And all it does is not allowing people to charge more for problem patients and thus those patients can pay the fine for not having insurance (as it is to low and is less than paying for insurance) and then just buy insurance after they get sick and pass the bill onto everyone else who uses insurance properly. No car insurer would pay for your car crash after an accident and other people don't deserve that burden. But the government doesn't understand this concept and could care less. They just swing your money around willy nilly because it's not theirs, they could care less how it is spent and whether or not it actually does any good. Government does not know how to handle your money better than you do. They do not know how to invest better than banks, they don't know how to give out loans better than banks ( unless making obscene amounts of money by mandating through laws that you come first in handing out loans look it up). They don't use technology efficiently. More or less anything the government touches the economy of it dies.

Lol, so your solution is, when people can’t afford healthcare, take more money away from them in the form of fines?

And make healthcare more expensive for the people who NEED it and are ‘burdening the system’ so that they put off going to the doctor for a sniffle or vaccination and then they end up in hospital with the flu which costs the government far more in the long run.

Dude, no. Prevention is key. Also, maybe your citizens wouldn’t all be so fat if corn wasn’t so heavily subsidised, they could actually afford to buy and eat other vegetables, and they weren’t spending their entire lives working to the bone which makes them too tired to exercise or cook a proper meal when they get home. Americans are continually punished for doing what their government wants of them. It’s so upsetting.

Umm no that's Obama's solution... Second you say prevention when the US isn't preventative care we give you pills because people are lazy and think medicine will fix you. If we actually cared about health we would tell fat (actually most health issues can be solved with these two things) people to start eating better and working out. Instead we give them a gastrobypass / insulin / cardiac bypass after they already ruined their bodies.

Healthcare should be free for everyone. The Healthcare Industry is a sham, always has been. It's time to guarantee free healthcare, free education and free employment for everybody.

This "the government is a boogeyman and literally ruins everything" rhetoric is stupid and confusing.

Companies and banks are beholden to shareholders, governments are beholden to voters. And yet somehow companies and banks are going to have the general publics interests more at heart?

How does a business get your money? They cannot mandate you to get their product. Therefor they have to get you to buy their product by proving it's worth. Then you decide hey maybe I'll get that or no I'm fine bye. The government says fuck you your going to do what I say or I'm going to take your shit at gun point. That's the police when you don't pay your taxes and have to go to jail.

It is horrifying that you don't understand there is a difference between what people need and what will make a company the most money.

On every dollar how many cents does a business make back in profit? Average is 7-8 cents but as it says some are above and some are below. Most notable retailers operate on only 1 to 2.

Do you know how college loans work in the US? You know that whole massive debt they always talk about. It's only around because of government mandated legislation. Want to know what it says. YOU HAVE TOO take federal (government) loans before you can take any other loans. Even if banks are willing to give you a lower rate. But yeah businesses are greedy bad people who totally don't want to give you a product in exchange for a good in a nice friendly and mutually beneficial manner.

I stopped after your first sentence because already you don't know that it's in a business's best interest to minimize recorded profit for tax reasons, and there are a lot of creative accounting methods to do so.

Ah yes the old tried and true your wrong I'm right here's no proof but your just so wrong I shouldn't even have to support my claim. That's a good one really hold up under scrutiny. Maybe if you understood economics you'd understand that based off what type of business you are and what you sell profit margins will change thing grocery store and guitar store. One can sell bread for a one cent profit because they sell thousands of loafs a month but guitars have higher markups because it will sit around longer and as such needs to have a larger margin. But yeah your just so smart don't let those greedy lying cheating businesses pull the wool over your eyes. Like shit have you ever used a business before McDonald's maybe? Shit you think they are making hand over fist on that dollar burger? But yeah your just so smart you know what articles say before you read them but even then you already know better.

Why would you mandate this bizarre dystopian future from insurance policies? Those "too sick" and everyone else? They don't get insurance so they "change their ways", be able to afford high premiums, or die young? That's so unnecessary as a distinction. Yeah, there are some chronic health issues that are the product of modern living and personal choices, you want the government or wealth to decide who is worthy of medical help? The government can help by responding to that societal pressure to end public health epidemics by providing PSA type preventative campaigns that have a long history of success. 3 heart attacks and obese? How can we stop this from being so common? Not, how can we let people those people die faster? Jesus.

The chronically ill are far from the central issue with American healthcare.

Did you even read my comment?

"One massive problem with it. Regulation. I have no problem with making healthcare available to everyone. "

The problem is when you say science is dumb and we should just through that shit out the window. Do you know what an actuary is? What they do? Why they are paid well and need massive amounts of education?

Lastly, "The chronically ill are far from the central issue with American healthcare."

"Chronic Diseases: The Leading Causes of Death and Disability in the United States. Chronic diseases and conditions—such as heart disease, stroke, cancer, type 2 diabetes, obesity"

I agree with everything you just said. Which is why it kind of amazes me when I see your politicians talking about single payer or "Medicare for all". Have they not been paying attention?

America was right to wait out that experiment - it has failed. The smartest countries have moved to a two-tiered system and holdouts like Canada won't be far behind as reality continues to overtake the narrative.

What you say is entirely correct I think: it's all about the surrounding regulation. The USA is many times larger and more complex than most developed nations and they also have a very aggressive lobbyist industry. Because of that, I don't think the USA could ever hope to regulate anything efficiently or morally and thus must weigh all industry heavily towards the market.

That doesn't preclude some sort of social safety net though. Maybe state run hospitals could be a thing?

Hmmm, maybe we should deal with that aggressive lobbying industry then.

Before you try to expand Medicare to all? Most certainly.

The system isn't really that bad. Remember, all the bitching you hear about it are from people with bad experiences and who knows if you're getting the full story. In my experience, it has worked perfectly fine (aside from the third party billing, which is a bit of a pain to keep straight if you had 10 different doctors/specialists like I did). A few months ago I was in the hospital for awhile. The bills came, my insurance covered everything but my plan's out of pocket max, and that's the end of it. The total bills equal roughly $125k. That's what was billed. The insurance company, through their agreements with providers, paid about $23k, and I paid about $4k. Wasn't all that bad of an experience.

What's absurd is that my company offers the USA's best health plan, probably, and it only costs 20% more than the garbage plans everyone else is forced with. I used to work in the health industry and I don't know how this happened, because every insurance provider has killed plans like these. I wonder if it's some kind of grandfathered-in plan, and we just haven't changed in 30 years.

Anyway, it's absurd that I have such great healthcare and it only costs a little more than what other companies pay per employee, but everyone else can't go to the doctor.

I think that might depend on what province you are in too? In Nova Scotia, kids under 14 have routine dental procedures including cleaning covered by MSI. Eye exams are covered for those under 10 and over 64.

https://www.healthquotes.ca/MSI-Nova-Scotia.aspx

Programs do seem to vary by province, I know our family in Western Canada were talking about getting free glasses once a year for kids age 4-10 from the grocery store! (Superstore)

It definitely does. It's worth noting that Nova Scotia has the highest taxes in the country too. My wife is actually from Nova Scotia and we love it there. We've considered moving but the wages/cost of living/tax burden balance is not good.

Come back! We could use more taxpayers!

Wait so canadian healthcare doesn't provide preventative treatment? Or is it due to the kids being dependents?

Dental and optical are not typically considered under medical coverage in most countries (in the US these are also usually separate plans).

The way to make universal health coverage work in countries like Canada is to ration coverage to only critical forms of care. Many such countries allow private supplemental coverage for just this reason.

Just seems to me that the health insurance companies like preventative care since they don't have to come out of pocket for big medical expenses. I'm not trying to be political or confrontational, just learning.

But preventative care is covered.

I thought he was saying supplemental was the preventative. My bad.

Dental, eyes, mental health, and prescriptions generally aren't included.

Everything else is. You can go to the doctor as much as you want, get any prescribed tests done, see any prescribed specialists, etc.

It's FAR from perfect, but you can definitely do preventative care.

Yeah, it’s a really good question. I’m not exactly sure how preventive care works in Canada, but OP mentioned dental and eye so I thought I’d throw that tidbit in there.

Dental and eye care aren't covered by most medical insurances in the US either. Have to get different plans for each one, so 3 insurance payments.... Yay.

Not really - it doesn't save as much as it costs from all the people using medical services far more often than they otherwise would. It's still good for people to do for their health, but it's not a money-saver.

Why is that something they need to specifically allow?

The private supplemental coverage?

I imagine it’s for historical reasons. Every country is obviously different, but I think in general when most countries with universal coverage implemented those systems they did so by first prohibiting any private sector health insurance; ie they ‘nationalized’ health coverage.

Later on some countries would then start to loosen that restriction due to the apparent need for supplemental coverage (often times offering means tested subsidized supplemental coverage as well).

That is not true in most cases. You don't have to forbid anything. Once you start to provide coverage for free, the companies will simply move their products to things that are not covered. The quality of the service will determine if it is successful.

It depends on the country, of course. I was trying to speak generally.

Sometimes it seems like coercive action is always the government's go-to solution before they even give any thought to making something voluntary.

It absolutely does, and no offence to UnhappySquirrel, but he's kinda full of it.

​

Healthcare in Canada isn't perfect by any means. I do think dental and optical should be added to our universal health care system.

​

One thing we should not, under any circumstances, allow, is for people to pay for private procedures unless they're 100% superficial (ie. plastic surgery). The rich must suffer along with the poor in order to effect an equitable and useful public healthcare system, because people listen to the rich. If someone who can afford to pay $10k for an MRI is allowed to do so, then they won't be raising furious hell when the public healthcare system fails them.

​

Source: am Canadian.

they do. certain things like dental and eyewear arent covered.

If you feel ill, you can go to the doctor, and if you need something done to prevent complications later on you can get it.

Presriptions arent covered but they are rarely ever expensive. When i needed to get some antibiotics i think i paid like $20.

Nope. Dental, optometry, chiro, physio - most of these things aren't covered. Most specialists aren't either - for example I recently went to a sleep clinic and had to use my supplemental insurance.

All Canadians have supplemental insurance through their job. You pretty much have to. The quality of care we get without it is very low.

Dental, optometry, chiro and physio are rarely covered by public healthcare in many countries. But stuff like emergencies are.

Drugs and specialists too - meaning the diagnosis is often "free" (paid in your taxes), but the treatment is out of pocket if you don't have supplemental insurance. A lot of Americans don't know this. They assume we get everything for "free" and it's awesome. The last time we were in emerge it was a 3 hour wait too.

American emergency wait times aren't any better.

I did a sleep study and didn't have to pay or use my supplemental insurance. did you have a referral?

Yes. I'm in Alberta.

Well today I learned. Thanks and good luck up there.

I'm sure you'd rethink trading your healthcare for the tax money back if the cost of buying your own insurance was 8x the amount you pay in taxes for your coverage.

If the US had price controls, made it legal for medicare/medicaid to negotiate drugs & treatment prices(it's literally prohibited for them to do that rn), and made every provider with insured individuals in a given state offer plans on the exchange instead of allowing all but 1 to pull out and charge whatever price they want, things would work a lot better. They still wouldn't work all that well relative to pretty much every other country on earth, but better than they are now.

I think i misunderstood you. You're saying you are in Canada, but it isn't that great because we don't have dental or eye care, and prescriptions aren't covered.

What happens if your kid falls off his bike and breaks his arm? Or gets in a serious accident and has to stay in hospital long term? What if you get cancer? Medications for serious conditions are covered. Hospitals stays, procedures, surgery, all that stuff is covered. I was born with a genetic defect, medication costs me over 4000 dollars a month. Automatically covered. Also we have the benefit of many generic drugs that costs pennies on the dollar.

it's not a perfect system. The thing is, we really don't pay that much more tax then Americans do. Not only that, plans in the states can be freaking expensive, like $500 plus a month, plus $5000 deductible. So even if you do break your leg and it costs $6000, you are still paying that first 5000. There are many family plans that are $1000 a month. And that is on top of the normal taxes they pay.

So you really aren't paying much more, but you get healthcare by default. Sounds pretty good to me.

You're right, in the case of an emergency we'd be ok. What I said, was that I effectively don't have healthcare anymore, because I don't. All of the things we use the health system for are privately provided. I just had to cancel all my kids dentist appointments. I've been trying to massage a breastfeeding kink out of my wife's neck. The vast majority of drugs we would need for a rash or minor infection or anything like that is not covered and we'd be out of pocket.

I don't like these false dichotomies with the United States either because that is not really the choice. It's not single payer or the weird corrupt monopolized US system. There's dozens and dozens of options and the ones that seem to work best are all hybrid. So single payer in Canada unequivocally needs to open up more to the market, in my opinion.

Yes but you could get insurance to cover dental and prescription. There are 30 million Americans that are not covered for an emergency.

You're right, I could. I'm not advocating for what the USA has, I'm just saying, not everything is all roses and sunshine with single payer in Canada. Our system has been showing cracks for a long, long, time and there are many countries that do it better.

Ya it’s not all sunshine and rainbows. I’d rather have this than the alternative though.

Then the false dichotomy alternative though. It's not single payer or the USA. There's plenty of other options that involve more private choice and price controls while still making sure everyone has basic healthcare.

I don’t get it. You say the canadian healthcare is over exaggerated? So what if your kids get sick and they do need treatment? What if you get cancer? Just go into tremendous debt? That whole line of “saving money on taxes” is bullshit. More of your tax money goes into healthcare then ours does (Canada). And then on top of that you pay extra money for insurance. And all that crazy taxes? We really are pretty close on taxes paid for by citizens, even swapping from time to time. So basically you are paying the same amount of taxes we are, and you do not have health care. I hope you don’t get sick

In Ontario prescriptions (under our formulary, which covers most of the basics) are covered for children&adults until 25 years. Free eye exams until 19 years old. But I do agree some preventative dental could be added into the mix. We do have subsidized dental programs for low income families, but that’s a whole other ballpark.
It could be better, but as a whole, pretty adequate.

Dammit! I thought someone had figured it out and the US would eventually catch up and adopt the same plan.

Definitely not Canada or single payer. Most of Europe abandoned the idea of single payer long ago - it's not sustainable. Many Canadians are very stubborn and uneducated about this though so I don't see it changing anytime soon.

I'd look at somewhere like Hong Kong or Switzerland. My understanding is Switzerland actually works a bit like your Obamacare, it's just organised far better. Hong Kong is probably the ideal system though. Their government just builds and runs hospitals where anyone can visit for free. They stay out of everything else.

The superiority of Canadian healthcare is greatly over-exagerated. I think I'd rather theyd let me keep the massive amount of taxes I've paid for it over the years and buy my own insurance.

Or let me opt out of Unemployment Contributions because I've been paying into it for 15 years and never had to make a claim against it once. And if you do it's a fucking nightmare to get paid, by the time you get your retro your back to work. You should get a refund of 25%-50% of your contributions for every 5 year period that you do not make a claim against that Benefit.

Or let me opt out of Long Term Disability that is mostly forced by the employer even if the employee is willing to roll the dice on not having that insurance. $25/pay adds up for something I am hopefully never going to use.

Canadian Healthcare is overstated because of the difference in Hospital care. Most, if not all places in the US are only required to stabalize you if you dont' have insurance, anything else you're probably fucked unless you have a health plan. That would never in a million years happen here in Canada, You'll ride MCP into the ground (Literally in some cases) before ever having to open your wallet.

People see THAT difference and they think we have the best shit in the world up here. They don't realize that most working people do NOT have insurance through the government for things such as Dental, Rx and other services they may require.

Why cant you go to the dentist or eye doctor?

they can, its just that in most provinces, its not covered under universal care.

That said, most full time jobs with benefits include a supplementary health insurance covering this type of stuff.

Doesn't ohip cover eye exams for kids under the age of 18 or has that changed? (Assuming you live in ontario)

I think I'd rather theyd let me keep the massive amount of taxes I've paid for it over the years and buy my own insurance.

If you had that, like we in the US, you wouldn't get this:

They could get a checkup. Or if we had something serious happen we could go to emergency and get diagnosed, but then almost certainly the treatment wouldn't be covered since most prescriptions aren't.

Everything out of pocket at insurance prices to start, you can negotiate it down later, but that also takes time patience, negotiating skills and either a phone or car. And since you wouldn't have insurance at all, no prescriptions would be covered,... at all.

​

I could still buy insurance. I'm not homeless. But point taken, the USA does need to do more to help the people that are.

It depends so much on where you live in Canada too. In Ontario at least annual optometrist appointments and any follow up care for anyone under 19 are paid for by the province. Prescriptions for those under 25 are also covered.

Find a new job.

As someone in a similar situation to you who has spent years in both countries you most certainly do not want to give up Canadian healthcare in favour of the US system. Your first $1200 copay will remind you of that fact.

That's fucked up. It's free to go to the dentist until you're 18 in Scotland. Fuck, It's free if you're unemployed!

Even then it only costs £30 for a filling. Coming on reddit really opens my eyes and I can't help but be grateful for how things are here.

Legitimately not true. Some states have laws that require overtime pay if you work more than eight hours in one 24 hour period, but there's nothing illegal about about ending one shift at midnight and starting a new one at 12:01am.

In many states overtime pay starts after the 40 hour mark is reached in a seven day period.

I'm seriously tired of people making blanket statements about laws in the US. Most things are not covered by any sort of federal oversight. It's up to each individual state to set their laws, it just so happens that many have adopted the same or similar laws regarding common practices.

That’s the internet for you. The US is inferior in every single way to every single Western country.

I’m in the US and my contact says I work fifteen hour days. I’ve always wondered where the arbitrary number came from...

And that's why you work 16 on and 8 off 7 days a week on a commercial fishing boat.

Unemployed in the US means you get Medicaid healthcare. All 50 states have free healthcare for unemployed people.

Work hours allow for 8 hours between shifts that means the minimum between the end of one shift to the start of another shift of the same job is 8 hours.

What? That's not a thing. That's the kind of thing that unions make happen but it's not a normal thing

It is a thing.

The US has no requirement or restriction on the time between shifts.

It isn't that way in the USA

It depends where you are. Medicaid programs exist in many places, and are very good.

Yeah except not, unless you're picking up extra shifts.

Unemployment in the states can be pretty decent. I've gotten up to $540/week in unemployment benefits.

I got laid off back in February and unemployment is fucking stellar if you can get it. To be untethered to any soul sucking droning job while being covered by their payroll tax-funded unemployment insurance is a fantastic feeling. You just gotta do something with it. It’s pure freedom so use it well.

Amen. We're actually moving cities, that's step 1. Screw trying to live in these big city centres. Then it's probably retraining time.

You live in a big city center and you commute 1.5 hours to work?

Your options for living close to downtown Toronto are basically a) be rich, b) compete in the Thunderdome for the handful of crappy rentals or c) take a time machine back 20 years and buy a house. Otherwise you're riding in from the suburbs and that can easily get up to 1.5 hrs.

So do they live in the city center or the suburbs?

Like I said, if you're rich or willing to tolerate crummy apartments live in the center. If you're fine with a long commute get a (still expensive but doable) place in Pickering.

There are other city centres within a 1.5 hour commute of Toronto, and some people do make the drive for work.

Is that commute time because of traffic, or distance?

Kind of both as the GTA goes out quite a ways and our public transport is pretty much all piped through Union Station downtown. It's getting better with the crosstown lines getting built but it was neglected for a long time and they're trying to catch up.

Both. The burbs where house prices drop to a reasonable price are about 30-45km from GTA core. 15km of that is farmer fields and the last 15-30km is bumper to bumper traffic down the DVP or 400. Its so slow you can walk faster.

Traffic. We're worse than LA or new York!

Super pumped to be moving to Toronto in a few months then

It's not the worst. It's very expensive and crowded, but also clean and new for the most part. It has a nice Chinatown and lots to do - great museums and a lots of parks. Public transport is a mess but getting better, when the crosstowns open up in 2019 (2020?) it'll be a lot better. I just found it very noisy and anxious, and the scramble to make your rent or the hope of ever getting ahead of the rising rents was too much for me. I was in a lucky position to move my job to Ottawa and that was just like a shot of valium to the soul. Ottawa is a sweet town if you ever get a change to move again.

Hmm interesting. Well the public transportation can't be worse than the American cities I've lived in.

Any specific neighborhoods you would recommend for a young couple?

If you're going to live in the actual city I'd live in midtown or north york. If have kids and need space, and don't mind the commute go to Mississauga or Oakville (45-60 min commute during traffic). If you're lucky enough to work from home and only need to go into the office once a week or so stay the hell away and live in Kitchener-Waterloo, I hear it's really nice.

Thanks for the tips. Maybe that last choice will be best

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"This 37 year old fat dude obviously just wants to be near the clubs! He should just quit his job!" No housing crisis here! Move along!

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Is it really inconceivable to you that there are industries that only exist in major city centers? That these people don't have to be there for their job, the just have to dance?

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Alright, go sit in the corner until you can talk like an adult.

Fairly common at least for Toronto which I'm assuming is where he's from. Real estate prices in Canada have gotten so insane that most workers in our major cities can't even afford to live in them

Come to Montreal, we pay 2200$ a month for a new 9 room, downtown, 4 people total. 550$ each on average

Toronto has the 2nd longest average commute in the world.

97 mins. I know several people doing 120 or more.

I only go about 6 miles as the crow flies but it takes me 2.5 hours a day!!

The maximum I can get on Unemployment is like 40% of my bring home pay, and I'd still have to pay for health insurance. I would be stressed the fuck out if I had to support myself and my kid on that kind of money.

and that shit is going to dry up eventually. Then what?

My previous job never laid anyone off, they were always fired for cause or given the opposite schedule they asked for until they quit. The management even bragged saying they had never paid unemployment to anyone, ever.

One time an employee was fired for cause, but the cause didn't preclude unemployment. They fired the manager for ruining their perfect record and causing their unemployment insurance to go up.

We were also the only non-union restaurant in the casino (vegas strip). We endured sexual harassment (multiple cases settled out of court), were forced to work off the clock (fired if you get overtime), and were paid half the base rate of any employee in any other restaurant.

My co-workers were vehemently anti-union. They said they didn't want bad co-workers protected from being fired, didn't want to lose the opportunity to work unpaid overtime (tips were good), and thought union dues were so high their double base rate somehow would be a negative. In other words, they fell for all the political anti-union BS.

I’m happy for you, but that seems a little broken

I’m not sure how. In California unemployment benefits come from your previous employer’s payroll tax and I was let go after 4 years because -for whatever reason- my paperwork was never updated to “permanent” employee. So they made a mistake and never corrected it, let me go, and then covered me for 4 months until I found a new and better job. I’d rather have it be that way then out of anyone’s personal taxes.

Yeah that makes sense :)

Gee, I wonder why California is millions of dollars in debt with the highest taxes in the nation?

r/financialindependence

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/10/08/how-to-go-from-middle-class-to-kickass/

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

Even if you think retiring early will not be achievable for you, you might be able to become "more free."

This is one of my favorite Subs. Although I'm not seeking early retirement, I just love how positive everyone is.

That actually puts a lot in perspective and were great reads thank you. I've been planning on trying to start aggressively saving at least half of my money left over after bills every month (which is probably around 2000 to 2500 left after bills) which would only be about 1000 to 1250 left every month.

I feel like that guy was making a ton more than me so his gains were exponentially greater. Maybe I'll take another read at it later and get a better grasp for it. Saving 12k or more a year would still be nice though.

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Yeah and the depressing thing is now saving 12k a year doesn't sound like much but it's still better than nothing and regardless would be a nice safety cushion.

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I'm not saying people shouldn't try, I'm just saying this dude is full of shit with his personal example and passing it off as something anyone can do if they just try. Not to mention a lot of his assumptions and suggestions are just fucking laughable. Stop getting your hair done and just buy clippers? Right, I'm sure the ladies love that suggestion. Ride your bike to work? Again, living in SoCal must be nice, but try that in Green Bay in January or Phoenix in July, or when your commute is 20+ miles. And his stupid ass argument that living his way means never having to go to the doctor or take drugs means a lot to Type 1 diabetics, people with seizure disorders, psoriasis, or any number of other chronic health issues.

The whole website reminds me of those "we paid off all our student loan debt in 2 years!" articles. The ones where they casually hide that grandma gave them a house and they got lucky in the stock market.

I'd rather people goto FI or frugal or personalfinance or any number of other subreddits here to get realistic info for the other 99%.

I'm decidedly what MMM would call a spend-pants or something, but reading his blog has definitely made a significant improvement in my finances and has made me happier, without even feeling like I'm cutting back! It's all about what you want and making thoughtful decisions, wherever on the spendthrift/frugal spectrum you want to be.

This. And then on top of it people are now pushing for 4 days at 10 hours a day. Hell no. We need to push for 4 days at 8 hours!

4 days 8 hours sounds very nice, but I'd be ecstatic to take 4/10 over 5/8.

Just switched to this. Kept 40 hours. That extra "weekend" day helps so much.

The 4 on suck though. I got 4 hours of being awake to get EVERYTHING done.

The problem is that immigration rules are weak. I can find someone who will happily work 40hrs for the same pay squeezing out 1.2x the work that someone working 4x8hrs putting out 1.0x work.

Unless the employer makes a decision to be a better employer and agent of change, it’s gonna be a very slow transition. The argument can be made that you’ll get better quality staff and that may be true but it’s a bit of a gamble if they’re not.

That sounds like labor laws are weak, not immigration laws.

How are labor laws weak? They say 40hr is max. That’s not being violated. They’re being paid above min wage.

It’s inmigration. Look at the US H1B fiasco or Canada’s Temp Foreign Worker program.

Minimum wage should be higher is my point. People cant survive on minimum wage, so they refuse the pay cut. They then get fired for DESPERATE people who WILL take the lower pay (aka immigrants).

You want to blame the immigrants, the desperate and least powerful people in society, over the rich assholes who have ALL the power and who are creating the mess.

The ability to just lay people off in the name of profit, even if the business is doing fine shouldnt be allowed to begin with.

Other countries have laws to protect workers, not this "at will" employment scam that some states have. And they have actual fucking unions.

Dude that's so true.

I work 4 * 10 and while it's better then 5 * 8

I would be more productive and overall would be less likely to quit or change companies if this was 4 * 8, and I certainly would get just as much work done if not more but I would actually like my life.

...good luck kid

Your attitude towards that idea does not help anything.

Grow your own food, work remotely if you want. I completely agree with you, but don’t think you have to be a millionaire per se.

I think we all do these things because our parents told us this is what to do, and what to expect. But with productivity being thousands of percent higher than our parents when they started working... there isn’t any reason to work so much.

I’ve been out of work too, and I’m probably gonna go back part time.

Fuck work. I’m gonna have a good balance of my life. And be there for my kids, when I can be.

I think we're coming to a cusp in the workforce. Boomers and older are looking at Mellenials and the next Gen as lazy, but we're starting to reach a point where we value free time and family time over a 40+ hour work week. It's not our work ethic that changes but our life values. Most of us remember our parents always working, and always hating to work or complaining about how awful their days were.

​

We're getting to a point of "fuck this" and if we can get together and really pin point a new medium we can make things better. It'll take a while but many many people are fed up with long work weeks, minimal time off etc. My co-workers all work OT and complain about working OT (optional OT). I leave with a smile everyday at 3pm. Finally I told a friend, Dude, you do not get to complain about overtime that you're willingly choosing to stay for. Slowly and surely he's started taking days and working less OT here and there.

The part of the 40+ hour work week that bothers us the most is that, at least for office cultures, the length of time at work and amount of work rarely match up. But if you have a light week, you are still expected to hang around and be available for a full shift.

It isn't a two way street though. If I finish early, I can't go home early. If things run over, even if it's not my fault, I am expected to stay late. And I work at an employee owned firm, so I imagine it's far worse in other cases.

As a higher percentage of workers sit behind desks due to automation, I think reform will eventually happen organically, but its hard to wait.

Not only that, but with 21st Century technology we don't need the 40+ hour work week to get the same amount of work done. I've been in my career field about 6 years now, and technology has allowed for a huge increase in efficiency in the field even in the short time I've been working, not to mention since the 80s. However, you have to know how to utilize the technological advances to improve your performance. At both my current and previous employers, the younger workers may not spend as much time working, but get much much more done and I don't think older generations realize that.

At my last job, I was doing some really mundane tasks. Like, exactly the same thing over and over again from 8am to 5pm with a 30 minute lunch break. It became clear to me that the way I'd been taught to do this task wasn't the best or easiest way, so I spent a couple of days optimising my workflow. I started working at roughly 200% efficiency without breaking a sweat and managed to complete about 6 weeks worth of work in just over 2. I had to tell my bosses how I was doing it and they didn't believe I was doing it properly until I showed them - and why I was finding it ridiculous that I was blazing through my daily targets twice over every day but still had to stay until 5pm regardless. And I could've made it even more efficient if I was intelligent enough to automate the process with some basic scripting.

But none of this mattered because nobody wanted to bother changing the "this is how we've always done it" mentality, surrounded by people who don't understand how computers work.

The worst thing is if they see that efficiency improvement, they won't reward you for creativity, they'll just expect double the output now.

I did something similar at my job. They thanked me by giving me a 1% "merit increase" on my salary. Due to col increases, I'm now being paid less than last year.

1000% agree with you. Last week busy as shit, and this week not so much. Can't leave early though. Instead I gotta sit at the office on reddit thinking of all the personal things that I would like to get done.

Yes length of time at work > amount of work available....and that drives me insane. Where I work we would function 100% okay if me and my co-worker just alternated days. We could litereally work 6 months out of the year each, and the same amount of work could still get done. However, we both show up Monday through Thursday (we do aternate fridays) and spend a lot of time BSing or staring at our computers. I'd even be great with half days lol

Haha, don't say that to loud. Capitalism would look at that as an opportunity to cut one of you and have the other one do both jobs for the same pay.

Thank God for contractual obligations and us having different job titles!

I'm so tired of this trope that older people think of younger people as lazy based on generational identity. I think this is media-driven tripe and it is actually difficult to find boomers/Xers who actually believe millenials are lazy; I think it's the journalists who perpetuate this nonsense who are lazy.

In fact, the whole idea of labeling and categorizing generations is fictional bullshit. While you might draw some minor generalizations about people born during a decade given that they may share some experience of some world events, it's just that: a generalization that's not representative of all or even most people.

There are lazy-ass boomers, Xers, and millenials, but there are hard-working people in each as well. This idea of generational membership is a concept that needs to go away.

Depends on where you work and live. I'm one of a handful millenials where I work, and the boomers and xers always complain about millenials and kids being lazy or not having work ethic etc. I find it funny that they complain so much

Yeah it's nice you have a choice. I get plenty of overtime but it's not exactly consensual.

Exactly, why should we work our asses off just to live when the gift of life was given to us? The earth isn’t about working hard, it’s about working smart. Unfortunately, the people working smart did it by exploiting the rest of us and normalizing this slave-like culture under the guise that “hard work makes you feel good”. Free market means feee to get paid the bare minimum by your employee. Paid like a fucking robot just to keep the gears going every day and nothing more. Designed to work as much as possible so we don’t have time or energy to fight our masters.

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Ya... kinda what I was thinking. He makes it sound pretty easy to just work less/work from home. I've never been able to find a part time or work from home job that could pay the bills. That sure would be nice.

I have friends that work in sales, IT support, and web dev that work from home. They make decent pay at it. You can too if you're willing to retrain. I'm contemplating making the transition myself, but retraining is daunting.

This are just more expensive. I remember posting on FB that one of our utility bills was going up 30% after some increase was passed. It amounted to not much dollar wise. Of course my mother's old friend chimes in, oh that's not much more a month.

Honey, 30% increase is ridiculous, regardless the actual dollar amount.

Also the amount of taxes and fees on every bill is just amazing.

and just how exactly do you plan on raising kids and paying your bills with a part time job? How are people not living on a decent sized piece of land supposed to grow their own food? This all sounds Utopian but is not practical for most people.

Learn specialized IT support, for instance for hospital equipment. I know people who make $50k+ taking calls from home. Now move somewhere cheap and rural and buy some land. Boom, never see an office again.

Alternative options: web dev or programming consulting work, inside b2b sales, medical transcription. There are jobs that let you telecommute and make a decent wage, but you have to be willing to train into them.

My point was this: you don’t need a million dollars to change aspects of your life to make it doable for you. As for growing food, you don’t need a ton of land.

And I was just agreeing with the other commenter about having a balance with work and life outside of work.

I wasn’t talking about anyone else. I was speaking for myself.

as much as i hate the sprawl of metro detroit and SE michigan, this is a huge advantage. the work here is spread out throughout the suburbs. there are many flaws to this, but at least we aren't forced trying to squeeze into a city center not built with the idea of modern roads in mind.

Hell yes! I live 20 mins from my job in Rochester MI that also lets us skip lunch/eat at our desk while working if we want to keep our work day to 8 hours... There are still jobs that offer work/life balance they're just harder to find.

I moved out to Oxford and even though I drive 45 mins to work, I love life more. Plus it used to take 45 minutes from Sterling heights to Troy sometimes anyway during rush hour. I now live on a lake with a horse farm at the end of the street and can make it to downtown Detroit within an hour (non rush hour).

i only wish they'd actually vote on a better bus system, to relieve some of the traffic. i love downtown detroit, too, but i really hope it doesn't end up like LA or manhatten/new york city. several cities having work is better than all work being congested into one tiny part of ancity.

I get calls all the time from headhunters now. I haven't updated my resume in year or so.

Nice spread of work in the area, finally.

Is 696 back open yet?

Nope. It's maybe 60% done at this point.

And it'll probably be ruined after this winter anyway.

As a Canadian who just went from scraping by doing odd jobs and just started full time, I couldn't agree more. It's only the money forcing us to work.

What are your thoughts about UBI? I understand in Canada they've done some testing and it was helpful. I think one person was a young woman with children and she used the opportunity to go to college so she could better provide for her kids in the future.

I'm fully in favour of it, for everyone making under a very high ceiling, probably 150 to 200k annual gross family income say.

In fact, I've known people who've been on long term disability and the improvement in their quality of life was dramatic, and it allowed for them to actually work 3 or 4 solid work days.

Keep it fair, because middle class people fully deserve it too.

We canceled the trial :/

I think it's a great idea. Being forced to work is a modern invention that is basically economic slavery. I'm all for having UBI to give us the freedom to live our lives as we should.

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I'm the dad in my situation, but my wife works as a teacher. During those 12 waking hours, our 2 yo spends 8 in daycare. Even assuming e do nothing else that requires child care during the week (ie. gym, church, etc), we still have to transport him to/from daycare, cook, and clean, so he is left with literally minutes engaged with an actual parent most days.

I didn't really meet my dad until I was 6 or so and he moved up in the company. He worked 6 12s for so long. I remember staying up late just to watch one show with him before I had to go to bed because he got home so late

Fuck that noise. When I have a kid I'm not letting that shit fly. He was doing what he had to do but you shouldn't have to do that. And he's still a goddamn republican after all of that.

Makes sense. He squandered the best years of his life for a thankless job, so everyone else should as well. If you’re not making some billionaires richer, you’re a leech. Grab those MF bootstraps.

Can't upvote this enough. I am a stay at home mom right now because childcare was so expensive, it's not financially feasible for me to work. If I could work from home, I would not have quit after the birth of my second child. I did medication prior authorizations for a hospital. I could have done a majority of my work remotely( fights with insurance over the phone and faxing), and would have, if that kind of flexibility was available. Instead, I had to quit a job I loved until my kids are old enough for school. And then I can only go back part time, most likely. But my kids see me and know I love them. So I cant say I regret it. It's just silly that so many people are in this position when we have the technology to make a lot of jobs take less time and allow for more people to work and really be with their families. Or have hobbies. Or just be more than their career.

Very similar position, though no wife and child. Just got laid off, I'll.be collecting reasonable enough Employment Insurance to get by, and I absolutrly can't wait. While at work all I kept thinking about was all the things I had no time to do. Having time is a massive relief

Commuting in developing nations like India is probably worse. In fact given the excess labour that 12 hours easily becomes 14 because if you don’t work later and prove your worth, someone else is waiting to take your job.

At least places like India have functional mass transit. Look at Mumbai. Their train system is incredible. Yes, its shit, and dirty, and smelly, and completely overstuffed but at least it exists unlike LA, Seattle and countless other north American cities.

But Mumbai is the exception, not the rule .Take Bangalore for example , although they are building the metro , still for all practical purposes transit times are still crazy high , buses are available only on major routes . And people spend anywhere from 2 to 6 hours a day in commute .

Commute in USA is terrible due to the lack of mass transit. Commute in India is terrible despite the mass transit. It takes 2 hours to commute 16 miles in India.

I live in Hyderabad. It takes minimum 30 minutes to drive 10 km to work. If it rains 1-2 hours.

Try commuting in the Philippines especially in the greater Manila area. People start commuting to work at 4am and get back home around 10. It gets worse on Monday morning and Friday night. The Friday evening commute starts at noon.

I work 12 hours a day but i get overtime and an unpaid 30 min lunch i cant afford anything here in southern california near my job, currently looking at places 35 mins away minimum to afford it

I work 35 miles each way from my job. Takes over an hour each way. I work 9 hours with a paid lunch and I'm in the same boat.

I'm just trying to imagine how much traffic and stop lights you got to go through that 35miles takes you an hour. That sucks, dude

It takes me 40+ minutes to get from home to work for a 8 hour work day with unpaid hour lunch and I live 20 miles away from work. Seattle traffic.

I get up at 6am to shower and take care of the dog and leave at 645 every day in case traffic is especially bad and get to work typically about 20 minutes early if it's a good traffic day. I get home at about 6pm. In bed by 10. It's pretty depressing. I may look for other jobs closer to home in time. If I could do my work and leave early when it's done that's one thing but sitting at my desk pretending to work sucks a ton of mental energy away and when I get home I always feel like I don't want to do anything.

Well that sounds nice, my commute for 6.3 miles was 45min on average with 1.2h spikes once every week. Not even taking into account that if you had to use public transportation that would go to 1h avg (+13 min walking to the bus stop) and even taking a taxi is slow (getting one driver to agree to go to the financial center on peak traffic was hard).

Paid lunch???? Where you gettin' that? So you're paid for 9 hours?

I agree with this - I live in Munich now and my commute is 40-45 minutes. It's even more frustrating at rush hours, when the subway stops between stations for 5-10 extra minutes. To keep your time balance on the timecard, one has to stay 8 hrs and 30 minutes at work. I had a 5 day stretch when I would get home after 8 pm and this late, all the damn supermarkets are closed in Germany..so my wallet is full and my fridge is empty. I only have time to spend about 1 hour to the gym every evening and that's it.

This is why I will never "work" a standard job. I tried it briefly in my younger life, and my thought was, "If this is life, I'm done."

Ever since, I've been freelancing my entire life; in whatever fields I could get into. Sometimes, I've done very well. Sometimes, I've done very poor.

But one thing I get... is my own time and the decision what to do with it. I'm, honestly, grateful, to the sacrifices my parents made in the 80s to buy me computers when I was a kid, because it gave me the skills to work in technology fields without schooling, debts, etc.

I'm in tech too. What do you freelance doing? Development? How do you find contracts?

I started out in the early 90s fixing people's computers, then I moved to photo restoration and photo retouching after learning Photoshop, then to doing some business software in programming, then I moved into 3D content/animation, from there I went into photography (opened a studio), then into video production, and now I'm weaning my way into the realm of game development.

I never stuck doing one thing, because doing just one thing is a difficult way to freelance (especially where I live, in a rural area).

When I wanted work, I advertised locally wherever I could; I would put notices up in stores, malls, pay for Facebook ads targeted to my local audience, and cold call people who I think may be interested in a service I had. If I had a client who hasn't contacted me like they normally do, I would reach out and initiate conversation. All of these things work.

Right now, trying to get into game dev; so, it's a different approach, live-streaming some game development on Twitch, getting to know as many indie game devs as I can, helping then promote their games and channels and connecting other game devs to each other, which has helped me get to know a lot of people who work in big game studios.

In my moments of success, they have always come when I was being pro-active in approaching new people.

I’ve recently adopted the attitude of putting the minimum amount of work in as I can to not draw attention to it or get sacked. I’ve realised that most of the stress that people in office jobs get is a result of the competitive environment where you’re expected to fight for promotions or “progress”. I’m happy to stay pretty much where I am until I can progress at my own pace without worrying about how I’m doing relative to others. This has helped me to actually be able to relax in the evenings and not go home completely drained

Agree. Let me offer another data point too. The job I was just laid off from, I worked at for almost 10 years. 4 years as a consultant, at which point I was hired on as an employee for the last 6. I sacrificed a lot for that company - going above and beyond when needed, always trying to put "the team" first, putting in extra hours, taking trips out to our field locations for weeks at a time, etc..

When we ran into financial difficulties the first people to go were all of upper management - all of the people who knew how much I had given that place. When new management came in, they knew none of this. They had no knowledge of what I had done, what I was promised, or anything, and quickly decided that my position could be better served by an outsourcing firm and I was canned. They had no allegiance to me, didn't know my family, had never met my kids, so they are even trying to screw me out of the small amount of severance I'm entitled to - forcing me to get a lawyer.

So, ya. Lesson learned as well. Don't work your ass off for someone else. Ever. Do what you're fairly paid to do and nothing more.

I work a sporadic 20 hours to 40+ hours a week here in the US but no matter what I cannot make enough money to afford to live on my own. If I got the cheapest available apartment in the area I live in I would either be unable to afford a car (insurance and shit wouldn’t be possible to pay for) or I would have to starve. I can’t not pay my phone bill because if I need more hours I need to be able to get called in to work more. I need to be able to access my banking, and pay bills, and communicate with the outside world. Life is absolutely fucked man. YOU CANT live on minimum wage

You know the rule writers of the "Free Market" would just dock pay for the same productivity if a three day work week happens.

They will reap the profits of this first and then screw over labor, but we are indoctrinated into thinking that free market economy is the best, specially when there are no regulations to protect workers.

It's a rigged economy, until labor has a say in their future, but that won't happen until tuition debt is wiped out.

Labor needs to have more leverage when looking for employment, being debt free and if/when Medicaid for all happens, it will shift the power back towards labor, which is greatly needed.

we are indoctrinated into thinking that free market economy is the best

No. The idea that a free-market economy is the best is based on solid economic principles.

The indoctrination part is where we're told that what we have is a free market, or at least a close approximation of one.

You are correct, we are told that what we have is a free market.

And who writes the laws of those principles?

I know it's not you or me, it's the corporation that are creating these models and paying Congress to look the other way or write these laws.

Predatory capture is being used as an 'sound economic principle' that is not working in our favor when it's based on forcing corporate loses onto uneducated tax payers?

When you look at two simple factors of the historic rate of return on everything, I mean everything, homes, stocks, bonds, anything that can increase in value from 1870-2015 and compare it to our GDP you will fine one interesting fact.

The fact is the economy based on the indoctrinated belief of the free market is not sustainable.

The paper referenced above is clearly stating that predatory wages, pricing of products, etc are not fueling the economy where consumers have any buying power. One major part of the loss of buying power is what I've stated earlier, the exploitation of corporate welfare disguised as a lever of a free market economy.

A free market with out heavy regulations on labor pay or exploiting tax payers is not a concept that is of sound principles when no has the ability to fix these rules, this goes back to the billionaire that are paying Congress to write these rules of the economy, not you or me.

And who writes the laws of those principles?

I'm talking about theoretical principles. Not the kind of thing that any person has control over. Nobody can change the laws of supply and demand any more than they can change the law of gravity.

The fact is the economy based on the indoctrinated belief of the free market is not sustainable.

Perhaps not. Remember, I'm advocating for actual free markets, rather than indoctrination and propaganda.

Work/life balance. I’ve found that in shift work. I work X amount of hours for a few days, usually around 12, and then I’m off for 4 days. It was amazing!

Over the summer I had an 80-minute commute each way. It was hell. But it also made me observe other commuters and what I've noticed is how tired everyone looked. I had to take a few buses to get to work but the longest section was a 40-minute bus ride where each afternoon half the people on that bus were sleeping or trying to. One day of the 9 people sitting around me only 1 had their eyes open. It made me think about how something is very wrong with the way we just accept being pushed like this, into a life we can barely enjoy, where most of us aren't even working towards anything of value, it all taking a toll on our minds and bodies.

My perspective on all of this is a bit different. I spent major chunks of the past 2 years traveling, and have just come back from a 9 month trip before my summer job. The freedom is addicting. I'm looking into ways of earning passive income, I don't think I can do this 9-5 thing for the next 35 years. At least I was able to change my commute, it only takes me around 20 minutes now.

Also Canadian, what you decided is life here. I leave the house at 630am and get back at 6pm after picking up the kids. After dinner and bath I'm too tired for anything and just go to bed, good new is only 30 years left in mynworking career...

Here in Canada, thousands upon thousands commute 1.5 hours to work every day because we're forced to live far outside the city due to housing being so expensive. We're then expected to put in 9 hours (unpaid lunch), and drive the same 1.5 hours back. That's 12 hours spent devoted to our job every single day, leaving maybe 4 hours per day for personal hygiene, house chores, raising our kids, socializing with our spouse, cooking meals, extracurricular, and relaxation time.

I know it's such a cliche on reddit... but THIS. Holy fuck this.

I recently changed from having a 15 minute commute to work, living a few blocks away and having a short, pleasant walk each morning and evening, to having nearly a 1.5 hour commute each way (long story, not relevant to this point) and dear god it's horrible.

It feels like nearly 1/4 of my life is being stolen away every day, burned up doing absolutely nothing but sitting in traffic. I know so many people who don't understand why it's a problem, but that's only because it's the only life they've ever known and never experienced the alternative, so they think they don't have a choice.

This isn't normal, and it's not how human beings should live. Fewer working days, bringing workplaces closer to homes, anything to give people back their lives - those are the kinds of things that would make a real permanent difference in the world for so many people.

I must now hear the story of why you have a commute that is 6 times longer.

Yo being unemployed is my favorite shit, but I don’t mind hard work. There’s a HUGE difference between hard work and overworking, and most employers think these things equal each other. Things will change based on societal needs, they always take that path. Problem is it’s very slow every time.

Here's the thing: modern day slavery is a thing, we all do it everyday. And the backwards thing is that its encouraged to become more and more of a slave. Got that raise? Working more hours? Bought that new car? Everyone's patting you on the back, and depending on who you are, you might even feel a sense of accomplishment. Its all we've been taught and been told to expect. But this is not the way our species should be living. We literally have the ability to inhabit this planet HOWEVER we want, and this is the system that was built? Just blows my fucking mind.

I've thought about this before too and what that means is we essentially are enslaving ourselves.

Think about it, which places do you prefer to give your patronage? The ones that are open long hours where the employee is forced to be fake nice to you, right? None of us ever tries to empathize with a customer service person who hates their job. We don't think about how costly it is to be open for 14 hours a day so we can stroll in at our leisure. We just passively demand it all and then complain when we have to provide that level of service ourselves.

How do we change that mentality? I have no idea.

Get rid of the rentseeking burden, and you'll find that there's actually enough wealth to have short hours and decent incomes. (And many other nice things.)

You’re getting paid. You’re not a slave.

I disagree and I feel that this observation is incredibly ignorant. I would suggest reading some economic philosophy and looking up the definition of scarcity. The idea that our voluntary choices 'enslave' us is laughable, you could make the same claim about the deterministic nature of the universe enslaving conscious beings, but at least that would make more sense.

Work from home. Lifechanging!

This is the dream. Hard to get those jobs though - especially well paying.

You just have to up your game and sell more drugs.

I can give you a referal to teach english to kids in china . . . That's my current gig

I don't think I have the discipline to work from home. I barely work at work.

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Replace that with 3-5 hours and I'm in full agreement.

I wholeheartedly agree that some kind of change needs to be made. I work in medical field and work 12 hours every day with a total of 2 hr commutes. I also rarely get chances to eat due to the nature of the field I work in. Needless to say, the overall satisfaction with the job and my quality of life is not that good.

As a canadian in a big city this is all so fucking true.

Really makes me want to join all those christmas jumpers this year. Dont know if I can take yet another year of working just to live. summer was excrutiating so many days I would just come in and collapse wake up an hour or so later with the cat meowing in my face to feed him.

Couple people I know had heart attacks from stress, over work etc.

The worst thing about those 9 hour workdays was, by the end of it, you’re so unproductive. I quit my retail job back in May. 4-6 hour shifts, were the most productive and i loved getting those, they were in and out shifts. A full shift would give me a headache just to see on my schedule.

Right now I’m doing my college athletics’ broadcasts for games. Boss can only give me max 24 hours a week. I’m so happy all the time. Even if I do prep before games, because I’ve set up my framework in the summer, it takes me two hours at most. My boss tells me to submit 4 hours instead.

With that retail job the hours were so sporadic Id scarcely see my family for months at a time. I was always exhausted from closing shop on weekdays, then getting earlier full shifts on weekends. Was really killing me.

This hits home man.. Almost exactly my situation. On Mon/Tues I get off work and drive an hour even further from home for a certification class in hopes to improve my situation. 20 hours & 800 miles a week I'm in my car unpaid. I get about 3 hours to see my spouse each day Wed-Fri, and on Mon-Tues I get home and go straight to bed else I'm useless at work. All this and I barely even have enough money for food, often I don't. I can only hope I find something better in the near future.

This system is a nightmare.

I'm assuming your talking about the commute to Toronto. I live in Barrie which is an hour to 1.5 away depending on traffic. I live and work in Barrie. I actually thought about it. If I was offered the same job and 20 grand more a year to work in Toronto. There is no way I would accept it. After tax your take home will be probably 12 grand. Minus gas, car maintenance and depreciation from the km. It's just not worth it, and that's not including time lost from the commute. I would probably have to be offered 45-50 grand more to make it actually worth it, and even then it's not worth throwing away quality of life and time lost from family. Fuck long commutes to work.

A lot of careers, for example in tech or finance, are only available in the city. But you might be right, maybe a career change is in order.

My happiest time was when I was laid off over Christmas one year. Layoff was due to startup failing. It was 2 weeks to Christmas. I got a very small severance and decent unemployment benefits. All recruiters and HR folks told me I couldn’t do anything for 3-4 weeks minimum, due to budgeting at the end of the year, holidays, etc.

So I just... had nothing to do. Money wasn’t a huge issue because unemployment covered most of what I needed and I had a nest egg saved up. Plus my partner was still employed (though much less money).

I spent a month just learning to cook, exercising more, eating better, playing video games, and having a great time.

This happened again on my second layoff but a bit differently. I was laid off (company shenanigans led to big layoffs and a negative forecast after expanding rapidly so they couldn’t sustain the new hires, like me). Got a new job instantly but they had 4-6 week hiring process with background checks. Again I had small severance and a nest egg and second income. Differently unemployment wouldn’t cover my mortgage alone let alone anything else. But I had in the end 5 weeks with nothing to do but wait and it was glorious.

This is a great post. I want to add that unless you are rich, life is obviously a compromise. One compromise I've made for the past 20 years, is to live as close to work as possible so I can spend as little time dealing with work as possible.

Depending on where you live, to do this you have have to sacrifice having more than 1 room, maybe no parking or no car even, maybe it will require lots of walking or even public transport.

As you get out of college it gets exciting to join life and sign up for all the money makers in the world. Then you realize that even though you got that kick ass job in that kick as city, you've never seen the city cuz your always working. The true luxury in life, is having your own time to do what YOU want to do. Work at building that every day of your life.

Remember, you can always make more money..somehow. But you can absolutely not ever.............EVER....FUCKING EVER...make more time.

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Canadian here, wake up at 5am leave and get to work for 6:30, shift starts no breaks given aside from lunch. Finish at 4:30, home by 5:30. I quit the gym because work is too exhausting. I have to give up things that make me happy because i need to bring this company money so the owners from France and afford their 3 houses and yachts. Thankfully, there is a job oppertunity which i will be soon taking which i wouldn’t work more than 36h a week 7-3 and finish early on fridays. Still not 3 days a week but way better than 5. Whoever thought 5-2 ratio was fair needs to get checked. Id be happy with 4-3

This was exactly how I felt after being laid off with a week notice. I was in bliss for 4 months or so until I get a new job. I was so happy not having to devote 10 plus hours a day to working miserably.

I'm 27. I live at home. Cant afford my own place, I'm barely making ends meet and I get paid decent-enough. But I cant save for the future. I'm in college and working 40 hour weeks. Stepped down as a manager because the stress was too much. But I need to earn about 500 more a month for me to be financially okay. I feel like I'm bad at adulting and that I just suck. But I know folks who have it way worse so I shouldn't complain.

Oh. My. God. Yes, this is me...ish.

I live in London, or at least thats where I have an apartment. My job is in Stratford (heavy SW Ontario refs) and it is literally an hour drive to and from. Surprisingly my apartment runs about 900 all inclusive but Stratford (being 1/8th ish the size but twice the quality IMO) starts around 1200 for something comparable to my 890 sq. footer with most utilities not included. I pay to lease, insure, and gas a newer Hyundai and work 9-6 with an unpaid hour lunch. Luckily my folks live towards a small town 20 min from Stratford so 3 times a week I drive 20 min to and from work instead but I constantly muse about calling it and moving home. My gf goes to Western though and works for a bank PT in London though and lives at home so "our time" is usually spent at my own abode.

I get exactly 4 hrs of social time when I am home between her and friends and stuff like hitting the gym and choring. I assumed this was a new normal compared to friend I have using the GO to bounce in and out of Toronto for up to 2 hrs daily from outer cities. Every long weekend we get is like a breath of air where I can collect myself a bit better and plan my next few days.

I see a light though since me and the miss could move in together when she's done but with myself being a recent grad the jobs just aren't in my home base city so I have to commute. I'd say I am content but not nessecarily happy to regularly contemplate downsizing and/or moving home (which requires some time and money in and of itself). Personally would settle for a 10 hr work day over 4 days if it were possible to build better transit (I mean rail) between SW Ontarian cities. Cannot imagine being out west going between towns for minimum wage work

I work in I.T., for over 20 years, and have worked from home the last 3. The additional time I have per day, plus money saved on vehicle fuel, maintenance and parking is not small.

There are a massive number of people who would totally be able to work from home and be just as if not more productive.

The problem I've seen is that there is very little in the way of appropriate management of deliverables, rather than managers simply overseeing "bums in seats". So, this is part of what provides the corporate culture of "you have to be in the office to be considered doing your job".

I wonder if there were a shift in management behaviour to simply manage deliverables and if someone is not meeting the deliverables, then there's a problem, rather than demanding "bums in seats" regardless of productivity, how many people would no longer need to commute.

I know in my field of I.T., and with the state of communications technology, there is almost no reason to have to commute, unless your role is physical hands-on support.

I don't know how many millions of people out there could conceivably do their job from home, even non-I.T., but from 20 years of working in offices, I can tell you that the VAST majority of the time across those years, people were in their offices/cubes working away, either on their computer or their phone, and so there was absolutely no reason for them to do that from a specific building via commute versus doing it from home, other than management practices and corporate culture.

If they were doing other things that required them to be on site, then I would think differently, but really the only time that happened was for hallway conversations which could happen over other comm methods, or meeting rooms, where a great deal of the time, many of the attendees were on conference call in the room, anyway.

If the only people commuting were people that HAD to be on site to actually be able to do their job, how much less of people would be commuting? Floors and floors and buildings upon buildings of cube farms no longer necessary...

True story. 100% agree especially with the culture of managing deliverables. In my last job I had so much trouble getting this through the head of the HR person, who wasn't even my boss but liked to pretend like she was. "Is my job done? Then why does it matter if I was in my office exactly 10 minutes after lunch?".

On another note, how did you get a work from home gig in IT? I'm a sysadmin by profession as well and I would absolutely love to do that. The culture in Canada, at least, is that you need to be in the office for emergencies or so someone can stroll by whenever they want to show you something or talk to you.

It only became an opportunity by coincidence because I joined a team that was already spread out across the country, so the manager was already used to having the majority not be in the same office anyway. On top of that, the manager had a history of preferring to hire consultants/contractors instead of staff, so was used to managing deliverables instead of "bums in seats" anyway. Keep an eye out for managers or organizations that operate similarly and try to get yourself in there. Prior to this for the last 20 years, any manager I worked for was very much a "bums in seats" manager.

I totally agree, to add, not all but a good portion of jobs can be done as long as you have a computer and internet access. There needs to be a bigger push to allowing office people to work from home. That alone would save me 4 hours everyday. With labor related jobs it is not possible, but with the technology we have there is becoming less and less reason to come to physically come to an office everyday to do work that could be completed at home.

It really feels like THIS is what life is supposed to be,

It probably actually is. I remember hearing about research being done on some of the few remaining hunter-gatherer groups and it was found that those groups do far fewer hours of work to survive than modern people. This article says that they:

work only about 15 hours each week acquiring food and then another 15 to 20 hours on domestic chores. The rest of the time they could relax and focus on family, friends and hobbies.

Not only this, but study after study after study conclusively shows that long work hours don't lead to more productivity.

A human being really only puts in about 20-30 hours of work per week. Of course there are outliers in both directions, but that's the average. So this means that if someone is at work 30 hours per week, they get 30 work hours of work done. If someone is at work for 60 hours a week, they get 30 hours of work done... They work more slowly, or take more breaks, but it was always equalize back to 30. I saw this personally when I worked 80/hours a week in China. People worked slowly, took breaks, etc etc. A human being just isn't capable of 80 hours of focused work a week.

Okay, so now we have established that 30 hours is as much work as you can get out of a person. Here's the thing: working more than that decreases quality and effectiveness. If someone works 30 hours a week, they get 30 hours of work done, but they also get more free time. That means more sleep, more happiness, better health. All of that leads to the 30 hours of work being better.

So, I agree with this dude 100%. A 3 day work week of 10 hours per day is the absolute most effective way for people to work, and it has this awesome side effect of making people happier and healthier. It's a win/win/win in every sense.

But, unfortunately, most people will just think it's lazy to work 3 days a week. Companies will think they are losing out on money. It's sad that no one who seems to decide this shit has ever read any studies on labor.

But, unfortunately, most people will just think it's lazy to work 3 days a week. Companies will think they are losing out on money. It's sad that no one who seems to decide this shit has ever read any studies on labor.

I don't think so, I think it just requires a cultural change. An employer still pays for the same amount of time, they might just need 2 shifts of workers or something, and of course we all need to learn how to live on the decreased salary.

Well if literally everyone got a % decrease salary, then price levels would go down accordingly.

But I think the whole idea here is that working 30 hours a week gives them as many "equivalent working hours" as a 50 hour week, so there's theoretically no need to lower salaries.

A staggered 3 day week would work. So the world runs on Monday to Thursday. Actual people work Tuesday Wednesday and have Monday or Thursday off. That would alleviate traffic and you could get stuff done and still have a nice weekend with your family.

Interesting. How about just remove the idea of the weekend? It's effectively gone in many industries already. 3 days on, 3 days off?

Maybe but it's nice to have designated rest days for planning events and doing stuff.

Stay at home dad? Username doesn't check out.

Yup, was laid off a couple years ago. I got a new job right away so I wasn't stressed but I still took 3 months off (severance pay). It was amazing. I got a ton of stuff done around the house and did lots of stuff with my wife and kids that I'd normally miss out on due to being stuck at a desk all day.

You should look towards moving to the prairies man.i live in Saskatchewan and the house prices here are so much cheaper and the wages are pretty much the same.saskatoon is a beautiful city and Regina has alot of charm too. Everyone is family orientated and there is a good sense of community if you get involved. You can have a nice home and vehicle a holiday every year and still have a good work life balance.

This is why im marrying my rich gf. By all means shes really sweet, and pretty, but its not really love to me. But fuuuuuuuck slaving my life away chasing money when I can just buy a ring and get millions out of nowhere.

All this for shit wages.

You hit it on the nail. I wake up at 5 am leave around 530 and get back around 6 to 7 everyday. Around 2 to 3 he's driving every weekday. I sleep around 11 I'm sure living like this is shortening my life. But that's America right. I end up going to the beach often and just reading my kindle. But yes it leaves very little time outside work. I'm sure anyone that takes more than 5 days off thinks how they could stop working. I'm sure that's what pushes so many on Reddit to try to figure out FIRE a way to retire early. Very good on you to value the family part so much.

Preach it, friend. I live in California in the U.S. and it's the same here. All the tech/corporate jobs (my field) are in the city and it's too expensive to move there. So I drive 1hr-1.5hrs both ways everyday to get to a 9 hour workday. 4 hours of free time a night is nothing. After obligations, (Eating, Personal Hygiene, Exercise) it's closer to an hour and a half of free time. It feels like I come home just to sleep and get up for work the next day. There is no time for hobbies, improving yourself, or relationships. I really can't see myself doing this for the next 30 years.

Sounds exactly like the majority of Americans situations that live in and around D.C.

Nobody is forced to commute 1.5 hours every day. They choose to do that so they can earn a higher wage, but live in an area with lower housing cost. They receive a financial benefit by commuting and should be happy that option is available. If they weren't able to commute, then they would earn a lower wage.

This is the right answer.

I agree and identify with this comment. The commute and high rent are bad in New Jersey and several other US states.

Man, this hit me hard. I have been so frustrated with my work/life balance since graduating.. The corporate life has a way of just sucking the energy and motivation out of you with such a full schedule. I have lost touch with many of the things that used to make me happy, which is not okay. I need to figure out a way to lighten my workload

It really is soul sucking. I often wonder if I'd be happier working in construction, just like the dude in office space. Maybe I'm not built for this type of monotonous office work.

Haha yes! I often think of that last scene where he is so happy while his friends keep trying new firms and positions to try and stay interested.. That movie is so dead on.

my wife is a stay at home mom, we decided we didn't need two fancy cars, we didn't need the 4 bedroom house, we didn't need the pool and all that shit. we bought a modest house in montreal, we only have one car and it's ten years old, i bike to work and take the train in the winter, when we vacation it's camping in a national park not a disney cruise or carribean all inclusive..

BUT we are so happy. she got to spend every day with the kids until kindergarten, and even now when they're in school they come home for lunch, she's home when they're done at 3:00. while they're in school she does whatever shopping we need to get done, cooking, laundry, etc.. so that when i get home absolutely nothing needs to be done. we can just play with the kids all night. we go away every weekend.. biking, skiing, hiking, you name it.. because we never have any housework or errands to run on weekends because she had time to do it during the week. we have 100% quality family time the entire weekend.

it's fantastic, and i really feel bad for people who can't have this luxury. the luxury of living somewhere that we can actually pay the bills and save for education and retirement on one salary.. and i feel bad for those that could do it, but choose to work so they can have nicer things and more things, at the cost of having time with their family.

if you're commuting 1.5 hours i'm assuming you live in toronto. best advice i can give you is.. get the fuck out of toronto.

There are also places where people have long commutes because they live in new, expensive housing developments, because they want to keep up with the Jonses. They have a self made problem because they don't want an old house, and want to look well off. Something has to change there also.

I agree with everything here. Live in a small Canadian town in Ontario and have to commute over an hour East to another small town just for work. The commute is killer by the middle of the week. I've calculated a total of 13 hours a day goes towards getting ready for work up until getting home from work. Not what I expected earlier in my life hahaha

Love this comment. Maybe there's a way!

Surely, the novelty of having a toenail growing on the end of your penis, can net you some financial gain.

I know most people's daily work lives aren't this extreme, but still many are very similar. This always makes me wonder how people find time to spend the hours at the gym and hours cooking healthy meals that they love to preach about. Is that all they do along with work? Do they not have to work because of rich parents or government aid? I am constantly so puzzled by how people find so much time for all this shit we're supposed to do. Part of it for me is definitely time management, but I'm not about to become a slave to a schedule filled with shit I don't want to do.

Even being able to work from home to cut out the commute makes a massive difference. I have over 10 days holiday left this year (in the UK) because I just haven't felt the need to take it unless I've got something specific planned.

Being able to immediately be free as soon as you're off the clock is amazing.

Sounds like you may be interested in FIRE blogs

I know this can't work with many types of jobs, but all office-drone type roles at this point should allow telecommuting at least two days a week. With modern video conferencing and countless means of immediate communication, there's just no reason to have to be on-site 5 days per week.

I also live and work in Canada and I agree with you wholeheartedly. This is not what life is supposed to be about. And I hope it changes before I'm too old to appreciate it, but until then, I've just reconciled it with the fact that life has never been easy for most people, ever, and not long ago it was much harder, living without heat or hydro or running water or sewers, wondering where your next meal is going to come from. Life is a struggle, it always has been, and most of life doesn't get downtime to experience the journey, we're all just living, surviving, trying to make it day by day; like ourselves and all other forms of life have been doing since the beginning of time.

Hopefully one day soon we use all this fancy tech we create to allow us to enjoy life more.

Absolutely understand that and sympathize. It does seem like it's difficult to complain when we're walking around with full bellies and super computers in our pocket communicating at the speed of light. We're certainly not wanting for anything, but I do feel like this is a different sort of struggle.

Perhaps it has a corollary with the fact that suicide rates are actually highest in the developed world. Maybe we need more struggle and conflict to be happy? Maybe we're like the animals at the zoo - safe, well fed, and content, but chronically neurotic and miserable for it.

I think you hit the nail right on the head with the suicide and depression correlating with unfair workworks and not enough free time for people to enjoy the things they want to do. I do not have the source but in a recent study they found that 80% of Americans reported being unhappy with their jobs and jobs take up a majority of all of our lives.

We have always had struggle, and you're right it does feel like a different kind of struggle. Maybe long, greuling days living in poverty with empty bellies weren't so bad when you spent time working on things that directly affected you and your family, like shelter, food and nurturing. It may have been tough, but definetely more autonomous than our current system, which seems to have a giant disconnect between our emotions and our actions. It's hard to grasp the fact that my 5 day work week doing something I absolutely do not want to be doing directly allows for the prosperous moments in my life.

I amognst many of us really wish it didn't have to be this way. I too would like my time to explore life and what it means to be human. Sadly all we can do is cope in the meantime.

I've recently become laid off due to the bad economy

"bad economy" lol

maybe you got laid off because you're the kind of guy who only wants to work half the week. Reddit loves simultaneously saying "put in minimum work for minimum wage!" and "i just got fired for literally no reason omg"

Thanks for taking the time to write this.

I'm job hunting in Toronto at this moment. The first question I ask agents is about working from home and vacation time. This is to me more important than salary. I was shocked when I've found some companies have 9-6 with mandatory 1 hour lunch. Are they insane? There's a zero chance I would trade my family time for work. I work to live, I don't live to work.

Story of my life...I commute from Hamilton to Toronto. The traffic is so much worse now than during the summer, and that doesn’t even account for accidents or weather. It took me 2 hours to get to work yesterday, and last winter it took me 3 hours due to a snowstorm. I don’t know how much longer I can take it.

Nah mate, this is all your fault. Don't you know 2 hours of sleep every night makes you more productive /s

Good points all around. It's simply become normalized how much we're expected to sacrifice to our employer overlords with nothing in return... Hours upon hours of commute time per week, putting our physical/mental health at risk with our don't you dare take time off work culture (U.S.), taking on extra duties with bullshit pay bumps. It's awful.

I know exactly what you mean. I was unemployed while I was finishing school. I was able to spend my time out of class with my kid and my wife when she wasn't working. Had trouble looking for a job for a month after graduating, wife ended up walking out on me (long story, but she was unhappy since I went back to school financially and I used to drink a lot). Now I have an entry level IT job that is 71 miles away (1hr 15 min drive more or less depending on traffic) I have to be here at 8 am and leave at 5 pm. Plus I'm on salary of only 14/hr right now. I wake up before my child does for school and get home after she's already eaten dinner. I have roughly 3-4 hours to do my chores and take care of what I can for her when I'm home, then I'm in bed so I can get decent sleep. I don't have time to workout to get back in shape now that I'm single, rarely get to spend time with my kid, and having to juggle visitation between me and my ex-wife.

​

I'm dedicated to this job because it's been a year since I was employed and it's the doorway to a better career down the road, but fuck, this sucks right now.

And this is why I'm not trying to use my college degree to find work and instead going in to a fire department. Work 10 days a month. Earn close to or over 100k starting out. Don't know of any other jobs that allow you the time to have a life and still let you have enough money to enjoy that life.

It’s a sad and funny system we humans have invented for ourselves isn’t it?

I completely get this, I went from working 20 minutes away from my home, lost my job, started working in New York City and my commute is now (door-to-door) 90 minutes each way. I spend 11 hours outside of my home everyday, and it sucks at times. My early mornings and late nights can be a strain for my wife.

I’m usually so exhausted come the weekend I’m too tired to do much of anything.

I’ve had a few weeks when I work from home(I’m in tech- so we get a bit more free reign then most) and it has been amazing. I get more done at home then I do in any day in the office.

I definitely understand the having to move away from major areas due to income. I’m trying to find a new place to live and it is hard with a standard income these days. It’s either live somewhere that maybe isn’t the best fit, get a new job, or move farther away from the city.

Pretty much the same in London. I travel for about 2 hrs 30 mins a day, work for 8 and by the time i get home there's barely any time to do anything. Its even worse if the job you have is just to make some money to pay the bills while you work on improving yourself to get a better job because then you'll have 0 free time and be depressed as fuck since you barely have a life left.

But we as Americans are told Canada is a utopia.....

Many here in America imagine Canada as basically Europe in terms of phenomenal work life balance. Interesting to hear this...

You should know many places in Europe are the same as well. There's several people in this thread giving me similar stories from the UK and Germany. I think there's a bit of a grass is greener fallacy going on in the USA about alot of these issues.

Pretty sure neither Canada nor Europe is that much better than the US.

Man stops working and is happier.

Surprise surprise lol

I’m 32, I have two kids 11 & 5, I have a wife, and a dog and a cat. We can’t afford a house and we barely make it on because of the new car we bought (necessity). I work between 50-55 hours a week and I don’t work for productivity, I work for life. If they were to go to a 3 day work week, I want my pay to offset the loss. It really sucks that even with both parents working their asses off we still barely squeeze by sometimes.

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How'd you accomplish that?

I'm on my hour and four minute train ride home right now, to see my 9 month old son for 30 mins before he goes to bed. I got 20 mins with him this morning which was nice.

I'd be a fan of the 6 hour work day, 30 hr week.

I wish more companies would embrace working from home. The pros outweigh the cons.

It’s crazy - half the people who upvoted the article, upvoted your comment, so the sentiment is shared.

On the one side it’s touching to know so many others feel as I do about this life situation. On the other side it’s so very sad.

Though I think it’s most likely that for me it’s being unfulfilled that’s making this feel so terrible.

Have you thought about looking for a remote job? Working remotely has changed everything, I feel like I hacked life.

Yes. It's the very top of my consideration right now. That may just be the solution to this soul-sucking corporate culture.

Happy people who talk about things are much less easily controlled

I work 3 days, evenings into the night actually, a week, not doing what I'd like but I get to pay the bills. I spend the rest of the week raising my two very young sons and trying to learn some coding skills.

Fewer working hours means substantially lower work related bills. I much prefer spending time with my family than working fulltime.

This site has a visualization of the commuting patterns of the SF Bay Area.

San Francisco has 160,000 people commute in from outside the city, and the 110,000 that also commute out. It is ridics.

https://www.wired.com/2015/08/pretty-maps-bay-area-hellish-commutes/

I think there needs to be some laws passed to help this.

Why is the work week 40 hours??? Why does it need to be this number???

I've asked myself the same thing. The best I can come up with is that 8 hours per day is the day divided into 1/3rds. Perhaps the idea being that there should be 8 hours for work, 8 for personal, 8 for sleep. Having Sunday off is then obviously religious, but where Saturday comes from I don't know.

Here's the big difference with modern life, in my approximation: cities are overcrowded, and both people are working. I don't know for sure, but I can't imagine anyone spending up to 4 hours a day commuting until modern times. Even then, it used to be when you got home that the laundry was done, dinner was on the table, kids were washed, etc.. - and god bless those hard working mothers - in no way is that an easy job.

Now both people work and have to try to jam a whole full time job (homemaking) into their off hours. If women don't want to do that, they are socially shamed.

We also socialize differently now. I socialize with my brother by playing playstation, for example. That means headphones on, blocking the family out. That takes precious time. I'm also a person that needs a lot of alone time or I become very depressed.

I think it's a whole lot of little things like that. The solution, as many have identified in this thread now, is probably a move towards results-based management, rather than attendance-based, and the ability to work unfixed hours, remotely, wherever possible.

The commuting is why I moved to the city so I can take mass transit to work and be sane.

This. I spend maybe one grumpy hour with my family a day after work + commute. This isnt living.

Sounds like you arent broke enough yet

It’s taken me since January to really feel like myself since I quit my second job. I just plain forgot who I was without realizing it. I started reading more, picked up old computer games, bonded with my cats more, reached out to friends more often, and immensely improve my relationship with my SO. It was just this slow change that really made me a new person.

It’s a shame parents can’t be at home teaching and loving their children all the time. I was lucky enough to be raised by my mom mostly who stayed at home while my dad worked long hours in the eighties. My friends with kids now couldn’t even dream of this.

Understand you man, in same situation. I make a lot but work 90+ hours per week stuck in a hospital 1.5 hours from my house :(

You’re absolutely right. The things you are talking about ARE what life should be about. I don’t know why people aren’t fighting for shorter work days. Thanks to technology, we can do much more in one workday than we could in the past, but we got rewarded with more work and the same salary. Our culture glorifies work for the sake of work, so whenever I talk about this to other people they act like I’m either lazy or crazy.

I think housing/vehicle are the largest factors in comparison to wages, taxes, other costs of living, etc. Wages just haven't kept up with house prices. The lions share of our wages get dumped right into living accommodations and vehicle expenses, and there's nothing we can do about it. It's extremely frustrating. To put it in perspective, my fathers 1900ft3 house at Dixie and Eglinton was $80,000 when he bought it while he was making $20k a year. That house today is going for about $800k. Which means I have to make $200k a year to be in the same financial position as he was at the time. It's safe to say, I'm never going to make that kind of money.

Wages just haven't kept up with house prices.

And everyone who actually understands economics knew they wouldn't. This isn't some kind of anomaly, it's a mathematical inevitability, and it's not going to stop.

yup..being out of work and having all that free time is unreal..makes you think what you could have accomplished if you didnt have to spend 40hrs plus every week at work

I assume you're in Toronto. And why, pray tell, do you think housing got so expensive? It wasn't before.

You don't get to have a 3-day workweek because the government needs to pay for its unfunded liabilities, and to do that it needs you working 40 hours plus a bazillion extra taxpayers moving into the country who will compete for your house and push you 1.5 hours away from work.

These nice ideas only work if everyone collectively agrees not to debase themselves and if society at large isn't a ponzi scheme.

How to free ourselves of the tyranny of industry that brainwashes us to be their work horses will be our next great achievement.

I just got out of this situation, and I fucking hate it.

I have a lovely wife and 2 children, 2 and 5 years old. Was laid off 9 months ago. I spent all of those months happy at home with them. We built up some debt so I had to go back to work, my commute is about 45 minutes each way and I'm so sick of it already. It's been a week.

To top it off, my new boss has already asked that I not leave as early as I need to in order to pick up the kids before the cutoff for daycare/latchkey. I'm fucking done with this already. I know I have to work though, so I'm looking at taking a pay cut to work closer and have less responsibility.

I play the lottery once a month and despair.