Simple steps. May not always be easy, though.
Reduce
Reuse
Recycle
Listed in order of priority, no less! Reducing is much, much better than reusing, and reusing is much, much better than recycling. There are way too many people who say "I'm doing good because I recycle," but who really need to be asked "okay, but why are you buying so much shit that needs to be recycled in the first place?"
I believe a newer version is more like: Refuse, Reduce, Reuse, Recycle, Rot
Yes, refuse is important! You don't need a straw at a restaurant. You don't need a plastic fork with takeout. You don't need a bag for the single item you bought at the drug store. Etc etc etc
Many cashiers, especially younger girls, look at me funny when I say I don't need a bag for my things. If I carried the items without a basket to the counter, I can do the same to my car and into my house. But it is a weird thing for them. Once, one cashier smirked when I said no bag and I have about 10-12 small items.
You can always carry your own tote bag or something similar to carry your grocery bags.
Similarly, if I do use plastic grocery bags, I use them as trash bags, and I throw them out every week (I live by myself, so I don't have a lot of trash, but with families, per day is fine) into the large black garbage bin. I always have a bunch of them just in case for other stuff as well.
Or ask for paper bags! Many people don't know that grocery stores will still provide these.
Growing up, many art supplies and book covers in our house were fashioned out of brown paper grocery bags. (I'm not even that old, nor were my parents hippies)
Yep, those are great as well!
Yup, tote bags are good. I usually walk in with the intention to buy 1 item but end up buying some fruits or carrots.
I like to turn old t-shirts into tote bags. You can fold (or bunch) them up really small to fit in a purse or backpack and wash them easily.
Plastic store bags are great for bathroom/under the desk trash cans and for dog bags when taking puppies for a walk.
This is such a great idea! I'm about to do a big closet clean out and I'm definitely going to do this.
Walmart has started making their bags so thin that they always have little holes by the time I get them home. So now I can't use most of them as trash bags.
You can double bag/use two bags them for "one" trash bag. that's what I do when one of the bags rip.
My concern is if I happen to throw away anything liquid.
I wonder if the 'younger girls' are really just new high school aged employees or such who are afraid to bend the rules their bosses gave them to always bag everything to make the customer happy? Either way who cares if they smirk at you (whether or not that's your perception or they actually give a shit..?) if you're saving plastic that's a win!
true. Or it might be that they think I am too cheap to pay 10c for the plastic bag. Impostor syndrome tells me it is the latter but I could be very wrong.
Didn't realize your bags cost anything, that could explain it. Where I live, they're still free and totally unregulated. People (especially older folks) look at me funny when I take my canvas bags to the grocery store...
I lived in rural FL and they double bagged everything. Cilantro in those greenish bags + 2 plastic bags! Back then I was stupid so didn't mind it a lot. A grassroots campaign across USA to live with less plastic, disposable stuff will really help the earth.
Yeah a lot of places have banned plastic bags and require retailers to charge 5-10c a bag to encourage the use of reusable bags. Usually doesn't apply to the small thin bags for meat and produce, I'm not opposed to those because they are important for avoiding cross contamination, also necessary for weighing bulk items.
Unless the meat you're buying isn't covered by plastic already, those thin bags also aren't necessary. You can get canvas or mesh ones for produce too, although I don't even bother. It's all getting washed before I eat it anyway!
The grocery store I worked at in high school discounted you 5¢ per reusable bag, but I don't think they do that anymore, because people would just buy too many new reusable bags which was even more wasteful.
I have a step for repurpose in there. Doesn't work always. I collected disposed water bottles from my office and we have about 200 pots with plastic bottles in our backyard now. My wife use the caps to do some artwork and stuck them to a tree trunk.
I try to repurpose cardboard boxes too. I waste a lot of time doing this shit while my colleagues use an average of 3 water bottles per day even though the filling station is closer than the fridge :(
I might have a strong feeling of "holier than thou" due to this but seeing the wastage hurts...
Refuse, Reduce
That's why the reduce is in there: to reduce garbage created, no?
Yeah refusing to use something and reducing your use of that something are pretty much the same. Only difference I can possibly think of is refusing means 0% use while reducing just means less than 100% use? Refusing would still be a reduction of use though anyway.
When the committee who came up with this slogan was first developing it, they originally had Refuse, Reuse, Recycle. They decided Refuse was too strong a word and people would reject the whole saying.
Source: A professor of Environmental Studies I had at uni who said he was on the committee.
There's one that has rethink as well
I think it's supposed to be Rethink, Reduce, Reuse, Recycle, instead of having refuse start off.
They also added RECOVER to the front as well. To try and make use of what you already have or what has already been made.
My parents were filling up their allotted trash can every week. I told them to start recycling, so there can wouldn't be so full. They ended up with only about one trash bag of actual trash. They also found they could recycle so much that they were able to get an extra recycling bin.
Yep. My city has (mandatory) weekly trash pickup, but I generate so little trash I only bother actually putting it out for pickup maybe once or twice a month.
Same! Our city picks up trash twice a week but only picks up recycling once a week. They really need to reverse that! I build up way more recycling due to cans and bottles. Our tap water is really bad even after being filtered.
Our city picks up trash twice a week but only picks up recycling once a week. They really need to reverse that!
~~Reduce~~ reverse it and cut it in half!
Edit: a word and a quote to explain what part of the post I was replying to. Crap, that was a bad typo.
I mean, if tap water isn't an option, you're basically telling him to drink less water, which isn't a good idea.
Huh? Oh shit, I made a typo that completely changed the meaning of what I was trying to say. See fixed post.
Once a week pickup for recycling (as he has now) and once every two weeks pickup for trash ought to be fine.
(Of course, I'd also say he ought to try a better filtering system, such as one that uses reverse osmosis.)
Portland, Oregon has separate receptacles for recycling, bio-material (yard debris, compost, ect) and trash. Your trash can is intentionally small- roughly 20 gallon roll cart- so that you are forced to sort your trash.
And the trash is only collected every other week. And now that China refuses our recycling because it's unsorted, we're probably going to further sort our recycling so that metal, paper materials and plastics are individually sorted.
Our tap water is really bad even after being filtered.
Where it's important you can buy delivered water. Where- roughly- do you live?
Arizona. The water is very mineral rich and sometimes it smells funny. We get a mix of ground water and Colorado river water. The filtered water is fine for cooking but not so great for drinking plain.
That has to suck, the tap water in Oregon is pretty damn good plain and just as good as bottled if you run it through a Britta/Pur filter. Have you tried reverse osmosis filtering? That should remove everything. You can get under sink units for $200 or so, or you can get a dispenser and reusable 5 gallon jugs and buy RO filtered water from the dispenser at the grocery store for like 20c a gallon.
The worst part of living here is the crappy water. I moved her from Seattle, which had the best tap water I've ever had. Anytime I go back, I make sure to bring a reusable bottle with me everywhere because I'm so excited to drink water that doesn't taste gross.
Well, there ya go.
Because those minerals often chill out with the water your only choices for pulling them out are not practical for an individual- distillation, for example. So your best bet really would be to invest in a water delivery service. As long as you keep your usage grounded and restricted to general drinking water it should last you a while.
Our trash is general waste (every other week), food waste (weekly), and recycling (weekly). Food waste bin/bags and recycling bags are provided free.
Ooh, is your food waste composted?
I'm pretty sure it gets burned for energy, not used as compost. I'm in Wales.
In my city we only get recycling picked up every other week, and I was about to get a second recycling can because it's always so full by the time it finally gets picked up (I've had times where I have to keep some cardboard boxes in the garage until it's picked up because the can is so full) then I invested in a can crusher. It's been a great purchase, and has saved me the extra monthly charge for another can!
Recycling in many cases means thermal recycling. Aluminum is one of the few products where a stringent recycling supply chain has helped cut down energy demand by a large margin.
Not to mention that most people probably aren't aware of how recycling actually works. And I don't mean the process of how they recycle materials. I mean the general guidelines of what is allowed and what is not.
Everybody needs to take a minute at some point to make sure they understand the guidelines of recycling in their city/state/home-area.
No, you can't just throw whatever into the bin. There are certain things that are recyclable. If you need to buy something that will be thrown away, in the short term, make sure that it is recyclable. For example, you can't just throw any piece of plastic into the recycling bin. Make sure your bottles are clean and numbered accordingly. Otherwise, you might even risk an entire batch of recycled materials being wasted because there was one too many contaminants in it.
It should go unmentioned, and it ruins the Three 'R's thing, but it should always be:
Educate
Reduce
Re-use
Recycle
2.5 Repair
It's kind of messed up that I forgot about that jingle that played through all of my childhood until you said it again.
Then again, I suppose it doesn't matter because I tend to try and live the greenest I comfortably can anyways.
There's a song called the 3 Rs by Jack Johnson
There are so many reusable things now, snack and sandwich bags, water bottles, tall coffee cups, lidded straw cups, plastic containers for sandwiches or salads (with dressing holders) etc. If you have kids lots of things can be used for arts and crafts. You can also wash milk jugs and 2 liter bottles then fill them with water for emergencies, add a touch of chlorine bleach to ensure they stay drinkable.
That was a song they’d play when I was in elementary school.
“Recycle, reuse, reduce And close the loop”
Found it https://youtu.be/xylAp9fij_E
I prefer Improvise. Adapt. Overcome.
Absolutely this. We won't really reduce trash production and plastic in the world by only recycling!
So what you're saying is I should just commit to buying kegs instead of recycling hundreds of aluminum cans
This is why I took up necromany.
It's the green magic!
Amazon is why I recycle all my cardboard.
My wife actually has one before Reduce: Refuse. If it doesn't come into the house to begin with, you don't ever have to get rid of it.
People at work act like I'm an ultravegan hippie warrior for using a glass plate and silverware instead of the disposables that always come with our lunches. We have a dishwasher, for chrissakes.
Yep, got this a lot too because my SO and I made our meals every night and brought leftovers to work for lunches and always had containers for everything. Everything went back with me with little waste and I'd always here the comments. these people worked in an environmental field and were very wasteful for no reason. I think I'd get shot if I asked for a compost at work.
My SO brings home his orange peels to put in our compost. Someone this week asked him if he had a lizard (no) when they saw him saving the peels. I learned that lizards (or at least some lizards) like orange peels.
See you learn something new everyday.
Personally if I got asked that I would have just started eating the orange peels in front of them, to show solidarity with our presidential leader, of course.
When I was in high school and middle school, there was a substitute teacher that was notorious for eating orange peels. He was a very strange man.
I didn't know you could compost orange peels, I figured it was impossible because of how long they take to decompose in nature (many years)
Please ask anyway.
There's no compost pick up for businesses here apparently. Great system.
I got into a full on argument with my old manager because for some reason he was highly against me bringing in my own can for people to put their recyclable trash in so we don't throw so much shit away. It's weird how defensive people get.
Especially about recycling
He kept arguing that it would be too expensive to implement a recycling dumpster....even after I offered to take it home and recycle it myself. He was a weird guy
At my work they labeled the trash bin "landfill". Which is next to the "compost" bin and "recycle".
COMPOST?! I'm lucky if the bastards I work with put the trash in the trash can and recycling in the recycling can...it's ALL always mixed and we end up going "fuck it, it's all trash now!"
and I use the hippie warrior phrase, but granola food hippie warrior. usage: "I'm no granola food hippie warrior, but something tells me not to trust ice cream that won't melt."
FUCK Starbucks and disposable paper cups. Coffee is meant to be enjoyed in a ceramic mug, like a civilized person!
A lot of coffee shops here in Sweden have started selling cups that are reusable or give discount if you bring your own.
Couldn't this be resulting in more waste?
I sometimes wonder that about where I live, where food markets have to sell paper sacks for five cents a piece, ostensibly to encourage use of reusable bags. Thing is, so many people forget to bring them and so many people make the quick value assessment that they should buy new reusable bags for 25 cents a piece rather than 5 cents for a "worthless" paper sack that many seem to have dozens and dozens of these reusable bags piling up in their cars and homes.
And the reusable bags certainly have a larger environmental impact than either a paper or plastic disposable sack would have had.
If the only option if your forgot your bag were to buy another reusable bag, then there'd be no doubt in mind that it's worse.
Adjust the price? When it costs 25 cents to buy a paper bag people will start changing their attitudes and not forget their reusable bags. Same with coffee mugs. Coffee in disposable cup: $11; coffee in mug: $10. Price definitely affects the behavior of buyers.
Also, reusable bags are usually made of a natural fiber, like recycled cotton. What are these environmentally harmful reusable bags you talk about?
Lol, saltmine indeed.
Didn't dispute that price affects behavior. The five cents already seems to profoundly affect behavior, such that I see people either spending five times as much on a reusable bag or walking out with a comically large number of loose items in their bare hands. I can't personally change the price. I don't know what price would be most effective but someone is probably running analyses on just that.
My bags (you made me check, you monster) from several different stores---Market of Choice, Ikea, Trader Joe's, Safeway, Shoprunner, and a couple others---appear to be made of a woven plastic material, they're definitely not cotton, but that's not the point. A recycled cotton bag would surely still have a larger environmental impact (I did not use the word harmful) than a paper bag, as in it requires more resources (energy, material) to produce.
In Europe, plastic bags cost 0.25 Euro, which let's say for convenience is 0.25 USD. Most people carry their own reusable bags. It seems to work. And yes, they don't sell the reusable bags next to the disposable ones, you buy them somewhere in the store.
I think those bags you mention are made of recycled nylon or plastic fibers. It's basically fabric made of plastic bottles. Same with cotton bags. They are made of recycled clothes and other fabrics, like wool. How does it consume more resources than creating a new bag out of plastic (derived from oil).
If you intend to drink your bev at starbucks you can order it "for here" they will put it in a mug for you. You can also bring your own mug for a 10cent discount
People should never take coffee to go. That's just not how coffee works.
Do you live in Europe? I can see the opposite happening here (people might comment on you being wasteful)
Nope. US.
Why wasteful? Because I'm not using the things that were already brought to me?
Disposable things are wasteful. You should use glass/porcelain/whatever cutlery that can be reused like you did. What i meant to say was in Europe your friends are more likely to be the ones being criticized, not yourself. You weren't doing anything wrong...
instead of the disposables that always come with our lunches
So you just throw those in the trash anyway?
Not my disposables, not my problem. That's what I say. No way.
Upvoted for the drinking out of cups reference.
If it's your lunch then the disposables are also yours. What do you do with your disposables? I hope you don't just throw them in the trash
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I suspect that the disposables are merely available. So if you have your own silverware, you don't pick up a set and they're still in the serving area. Like when you get food from the deli section of the grocery store and there's a little counter with napkins and utensils that you can take or leave.
I hope that is truly the case. And it was what I assumed at first, but /u/monarc accused /u/The_Ogler of throwing disposables in the trash and they didn't deny it, for some reason.
throwing disposables in the trash
Yeah... and if that's really the case, and they're hand-washing their reusable stuff every day, that's a bunch of water waste to boot. It just gets worse and worse.
I put my dishes in the dishwasher, if it's not full of clean dishes. We have lots of coffee mugs and other stuff that fills it up throughout the day. If it's full, I just cold clean my stuff.
I'm not in charge of lunch or trash or any of that. Our unused disposables get stacked and other people use them for snacks throughout the day. We're a very fed company.
All my above comments were pretty lighthearted, but I'm sincerely relieved at these revelations.
Now it does seem like he's a hippy.
I started using reusable metal straws (because I hate drinking without a straw, but also hate throwing away all that plastic) and I get SO many funny looks from people at work and restaurants and stuff.
It's absolutely insane the amount of people who openly mock and make fun of me for recycling. I'll take a bottle off the counter and put it in a recycle bin and they'll act like I just digged through a bag of disgusting garbage for it. I have no idea where this point of view originated but it makes me so sad that it's way more common than I thought.
As in, you bring your own plate when going out to eat?
Sounds like they keep a plate and cutlery in their desk at the office.
Exactly my same situation. The entirety of staff prefers styrofoam disposable to-go boxes (multiple because salad is ewWW if in same container) every single day. I use a plate.
Especially the one who used 2 styrofoam cups at a time because " once I got a hole in it"... as she gulps a 6th Diet Coke from the fountain that day. Btw she tosses the 2 cups and gets 2 fresh ones for each cycle. Easily 50 cups per day.
How do you like your glass plate? What brand is it? I was thinking of getting either a new set of ceramic or glass plates.
Our plates are actually ceramic, and they came from Crate and Barrel. They're decent. Nice weight, nice white. My only problem is that knives create hell shrieks too easily on them.
I just brought a plate and silverware to work finally. I have to use my water bottle to wash it (no running water in the guard shack). But I’ve stopped with paper plates and plastic ware. My next goal is to phase out the paper towels I keep using.
I do that whenever possible. I hate eating off plastic.
I grew up using Tupperware and I'm always surprised by people who don't use it at all. They'll just throw food away.
How much better is using a dishwasher than recycling a paper plate though? All those chemicals and wasted water can't be good for the world.
Paper plates used for food, especially wet or greasy food, will often result in a whole batch of recyclables being thrown into the garbage.
I don't use the dishwasher for just my plate. I often wash it myself. I was just pointing out that people even have a lazy way to waste less. You may be right about the detergent and water waste though.
It seems plastic plates can be recycled with food usage so maybe those are best. Wish there was more concrete data regarding these issues.
Have you seen the type who needs plastic knife, fork and spoon for anything they eat? I know one who takes all 3 even for a small snack and throws them all because they ate the taco using their hands..
Probably because you're too nice to act like they're self-centered shit-bags.
Same! I work for a medical company and was told they only buy stirofoam cups for patient care rooms because "biodegradable recycled cups are too expensive" while they're out buying new volvos.
I'dd add :
2.5. See if somene else would reuse/repurpose your stuff and give it to them before you choose to throw it away/recycle it. Many things are still usable, but we might not have any use for it. Even if we ourselves can't reuse it, sometimes someone else can, and will.
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That's another great and creative way to reuse old clothes. I transform my unusable clothes into cloth, but I'd like to find some clothe making shop that reuse the fabric from used clothes so I can give them my old ones. Unfortunately, that's a talent I lack myself.
I use some of my old soft t-shirts as pillowcases. They don't even require much modification if you don't mind the sleeves hanging off (if you do a quick hand-stitch with the sleeves turned inside out or cut off works wonders) and if you're a big guy like me and wear XL/2XL they already fit most pillows (though as long as the width fits you can just slide one shirt on each side and they should meet in the middle if your shirts aren't long enough for this)
And if it's not something unhygenic like underwear, there's local thrift stores that will take it and sell it for cheap. There was one where I grew up that benefited a women's shelter so all the money would go to them.
Make coffee at home also.
Or at least bring a reusable cup when you go to the coffee shop :)
They let you do that?
Yeah. Most coffee shops (including Starbucks) will give you a discount if you bring in a travel mug.
Could maybe scam the system by having one slightly bigger too.
That is why I drink my beer by the growler!
On point 3: I just moved to a neighborhood that provides a MASSIVE recycling bin, small compost bin, and tiny trash can. The amount of actual trash that my girlfriend and I produce is next to nothing. There are very few things the are actual trash and not compost. I almost feel guilty for throwing so many things away over the last several years.
Like any other family we used to have a big trash can in the kitchen. Then one day we decided to put two cans. One for organic waste and one for everything else. That's when I realized organic waste is just a tiny portion of our waste, and it can be compacted fairly easily. Most of the waste in a house is made of recyclable materials like carton, packagings, plastic to wrap things, paper, etc.
Like any other family we used to have a big trash can in the kitchen. Then one day we decided to put two cans. One for organic waste and one for everything else. That's when I realized organic waste is just a tiny portion of our waste, and it can be compacted fairly easily. Most of the waste in a house is made of recyclable materials like carton, packagings, plastic to wrap things, paper, etc.
If you don't like the taste of your tap get a carbon filter pitcher or faucet attachment and fill a pitcher for the fridge. Cold fresh tasting water anytime. You might think it's expensive but you are saving so much money by not having to buy bottle of water and your actually using the water from the city you already pay for.
Previous owners in our home didn't take care of the reverse osmosis machine and the water from it was metallic tasting (we have high iron in our water) . We did the maintenance, sanitized it, changed all the filters, repressurized the tank, and now our water is fantastic. We constantly refill jugs and water bottles with it. Way better than tap or bottled water.
If you can spend an extra $20-$30 get an insulated water bottle and you won't ever want to use anything else. I put ice in it in the morning and it's still there when I leave work at night.
I put ice in my water bottle and it's halfway gone by the time I get back to my desk.
... I drink a lot of water and I like to crunch ice.
It may seem counterintuitive, but we may be able to reduce airborne carbon by actually not recycling paper products. Throwing paper into landfill instead of recycling sequester carbon from the air and puts it back into the ground. Recycling instead spends more fuel to move around paper for reuse and decreases the market demand for paper making the overall carbon problem worse.
That said, the anaerobic respiration of bacteria in landfills generates a significant amount of methane that then needs to be collected or burned as fuel.
I like maintaining and repairing older things(or paying to get them repaired) instead of throwing them out - wresting every possible bit of juice out of stuff. Even if it costs me 50% of the cost of a new microwave to get it fixed, I will do that to avoid another item in the landfill. That, and trying to buy quality stuff for the long term instead of cheapest price I can find. I feel like this helps with waste a bit.
Edit: a letter
These are so, so simple! And it boggles my mind how people (those who have access to clean tap water, at least) are still buying cases of water bottles at the grocery store..
Yeah there's no reason not to use tap water if you're able to. Makes me nuts when I realize people can but they don't, especially since my water is not safe to drink so I'm forced to buy water in plastic bottles.
This is great advice, but I have like 10 tumblers now, I don't think I am helping anymore :(
Maybe gift one to someone in your life who is always using single-use water bottles ;)
My parents had an interesting comment about that. During a drought, what is the greater sin? To use disposable dishes (which is waste) or to use real dishes but waste water by cleaning it (they do not have a dishwasher but hand wash & rinse)?
My main reason for using a reusable water bottle is environmental. But so many other benefits! Reusable water bottles are so convenient too! You can always have it with you and refill it almost anywhere. It’s cheaper. You don’t have to transport bottles of water. You don’t have to find a place to store them. Your recycling bin doesn’t fill up as quickly, and it’s just a lot easier. Once you really commit to these bottles, it’s hard to find a reason to go back to bottled water.
Another thing that has been helpful is keeping a portable set of silverware with me. I used to buy disposable silverware to take with me but then got a set of travel silverware and it has been great. Better for environment, cheaper in long term, don’t have to worry about forgetting to pack silverware or running out of it, I have a complete set, it’s much sturdier, and I am prepared for situations I didn’t expect to need silverware. Washing it isn’t a big deal either.
A big but super simple one ... take cloth bags with you to the store, they work better and hold more.
ehhhh shoutout to Flint Michigan! Hope for your water restored soon!
Jesus fuck, is Flint still poisoned? It's been, like, forever and a half.
Great points - just want to add that you should NOT reuse disposable water bottles unless you like bacterial infections. Buying a reusable water bottle and filling from the tap is a great idea, but disposable bottles aren't intended to be reused and can develop cracks and defects and harbor bacteria.
A small but big change I've made is to use a coffee cup for my coffee and tea at work. We are given those disposable cups but I won't touch them. It works out to be something like probably close to 500 cups a year I don't use. And that's just me. I'm trying hard to get others at work to follow me, trying to talk about cups people use as a topic of conversation. Mine is a father's Day pressie from my daughter, and a good talking point.
Anyway there's a few now that have mugs and don't use the disposable cups. It's a small change that makes a big difference imo.
This has also transferred to using a bottle for water instead of plastic cups.
People who buy cases of water bottles for normal home use drive me crazy. I live in a poor neighborhood and all of the recycle bins (or poorly tied shopping bags) are FILLED with water bottles. How does that make any sense even when just looking at it financially?
Has the Flint situation not been fixed yet?
STOP. USING. STRAWS.
It's one of the easiest things to give up that is 100% a luxury item that immediately gets thrown away.
We get them automatically with drinks now, but it's just as easy to drink straight from the glass.
In England where I live you get a 25 pence discount at Costa if you bring your own reusable cup, and it's also very common to have a reusable bag on you (they charge for bags in stores)
England is great at recycling! We even split our trash in: food waste, general waste, glass, recyclables
Just like Captain Planet used to say.
FUCK Starbucks and disposable paper cups. Coffee is meant to be enjoyed in a ceramic mug, like a civilized person!
I bought a stainless steel mug for this purpose.
I bring a cloth hand towel to work with me and take it with me when I use the bathroom. It reduces paper towel waste, and it also keeps my skin from getting too dry. Every Friday, I take it home and wash it with the rest of my laundry.
One thing to avoid though, don't use tap water in other countries unless you're going for quite a while. Some countries in Europe have a high concentration of sulphates which can give you the squits for example
Please stop using straws.
Don't reuse the bottled water bottles for more than a few refills, after that the plastic starts to degrade and seep into the water
And yet it can sit on the shelf, full of water, without that happening for a decade or so?
It's something to do with the seal, once cracked the air causes the degradation
It's not lined though. The inside of the bottle is made of the same stuff as the outside, which is constantly in contact with the air.
Plastic is not permeable, if it was it actually would make it not as bad, one side can be exposed to air without affecting the inside
It's the same material though. If the inside can break down when exposed to air, so can the outside.
Ohh I get what your saying, the breakdown I'm talking about wouldn't even be visible for many decades, it's just enough to release some chemicals into the water.
It's not even enough to cause immediate problems, but if you can drinking it like that over years it'll build up until it starts becoming a problem
I guess a better word to use would be leeching chemicals rather than leak
.4. Repair repairable items instead of replacing them.
(.1a. Buy repairable items instead of items that will ultimately be disposable)
You can also buy a compost container for your back yard at any home depot type store. My MIL had one and you couldn’t smell it unless you were right next to it. The top lifts open for adding food scraps, and the front opens for removing the compost. She added it to her flower beds and garden, but you could use it on any plants or trees. By the time it is done it was just like dark rich soil. Just keep a big coffee can type container for scraping plates, then dump it out daily.
Remember the “Give a Hoot. Dont Polute” campaign in the 80’s ?
I've read that tap water contains plastic particles (not sure if it's true), but I drink it anyways. The way I look at it is that there's people out there that would love to have it. I guess I could always buy a gallon of water and keep refilling it for like 15 cents, but I don't really care
I've been doing #2 since I moved to my own apartment (3 years now). I pretty much only drink water with the occasional soda or milk.
If you have questions or need ideas, check out r/zerowaste! They're aggressive toward their goal and are a pretty open community without a whole lot of the typical 'I'm better than you' mentality!
I wish I could recycle more but there's so much plastic that isn't marked and I can only recycle certain plastic numbers.
Technology is a problem especially. So many people buy new things when the old one still does all that's needed. This won't be true for everyone but some examples are phones, computers or even the monitors, many other things i cant think of. I've used the same square computer monitor for 14 years because it does exactly what I need, since I'm not gaming or watching or editing movies. Also a lot of people actually want the old stuff so don't throw it if it works, give it away
My city started throwing recyclables in the landfills. Guess I'm just recycling by habit now.
Don’t take a bag from the store if you don’t need it.
The US/Canada is horrible at recycling, we need those bottle/deposit exchange machines and our recycling would be up to like 90% instead of the 30% ish we average now...
The city I just moved to has curbside recycling and composting. It's absolutely incredible how huge a difference convenience makes. The garbage truck comes every two weeks, but my roommate and I generally only fill it once a month because so so many things can be composted or recycled. Having this had made me way more conscious of my intake and it's definitely made a difference in my life, because I hate putting stuff in the garbage now.
I disagree with the disposable plastic bottle one IF you reuse that bottle over and over. I use them hiking all the time because they are lightweight and the usually last months. Way less plastic in them than branded bottles.
I've had this ONE Spiderman cup from a kid's birthday party for over ten years. it is right next to my bed now. People give me shit about it- i carry the damn thing everywhere, put coffee, Kool Aid or Coke in it. And they'll try to take it, steal it, throw it away or replace it, cuz it's all scratched up and they're sick of looking at it. But as long as it holds fluid, I am gonna keep using it.
I'm not even a big fan of Spiderman. I am just fond of reusing shit in general and of this cup in particular.
Recycle any product that can no longer be used for its intended purpose.
That would be a lot easier if places could still find recycle buyers now that China's cutting everyone off. :(
I do all of this now. am much more concerned now in my 40s with kids. I even recycled the house we live in.
I love my aluminum straws. I don't have to spend money on plastic straws, I can throw them in the dishwasher, I can stir my drinks with them, and they get all icy cold.
What's ethical about any of that?
Tap water is disgusting, but I try buying those big mineral water gallons so I can keep refilling my bottle for a while before having to recycle it and get a new one.
No
Always check to make sure the seat is clean before you leave the stall.
So simple but people are apparently afraid of their own piss.
Its ironic that these people are so grossed out by their own piss, but are perfectly fine with leaving it for someone else to deal with.
That’s not irony. People are just putting off the problem for other people to deal with. It’s laziness mixed with lack of consideration for others.
Out of sight, out of mind.
Out of penis, still won't clean this
God help you.
God will clean the seat for me?
If you pray hard enough, I don't see why not !
Ah, yes. The old spray and pray routine.
Take a pee then bend the knee
Out of time, to decide
Out of bladder, so it doesn’t matter?
Out of sight, out of mind.
That's why I keep my eyes closed the entire time I'm in the bathroom
I'll pick you up when you're gettin down
Are you telling me it doesn't just stop existing as soon as I can no longer see it?
That’s called flushing.
Russian translation : Invisible idiot
when in Rome
Get your piss off my behind.
My girlfriend does this and it drives me insane! We're both women, so occasionally we'll end up going to the bathroom at the same time. If she goes in first there is like a 100% guarantee there will be piss COVERING the seat. It's so gross, and so inconsiderate. I've complained to her about it a million times but I can't get her to start cleaning the seat when she's done. I think about it kind of a lot.
That said, if I go to a bathroom that is already absolutely covered in piss I will not worry about cleanup after I hover (and inevitably add to the problem). If it's a little sprinkle I'll wipe it up beforehand, but not if it's covering the seat.
BUT LADIES, WHY WON'T YOU STOP HOVERING/HOVER BETTER/CLEAN UP AFTER YOURSELVES YOU HEATHENS??
You've opened my eyes to the fact that guys aren't the only ones who miss.
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I've never considered this, but I am going to suggest she do it from now on!
Amen, sister! Or if it’s the seat you’re afraid of because of piss, how about putting toilet paper down first? Or the seat cover that comes handy in stalls sometimes??
I've got a soft spot for this, among many other things, with respect to society and how they treat things that are no longer 'theirs'...
I challenge you, and everyone else here, to organize a garbage pick up day in the area. All the way down to the cigarette but and micro garbage, a collective clean up that brings people who are both mindful and supportive of this, and also those on automatic and not addressing this, whether they are oblivious to the fact they are doing it or not. Get them to be mindful of the way they live their lives, since 'out of sight, out of mind' should not be thing if it's left to others to deal with, and especially if the potential impact extends beyond themselves.
Human generations 101
Welcome to America
Aaaand it happens with everything, not just piss. It’s kind of amazing how self-centered people can be.
Nothing you said disqualifies it as ironic.
Irony is that they are so upset with cleaning up other people's piss.
I see that you understand global warming.
I would say that's honestly the reason for so many shitty\bad things in the world. Basically "it's not MY job". So many people's lives would be better, areas would be better kept, etc. if we all used a little bit more time, effort, and consideration in our everyday lives.
Sorry for the preaching. I know quite a bit of people like that (I'm sure I'm guilty of it myself) and it sets me off.
I work construction. I had an apprentice that pissed in a Gatorade bottle and left it in the room he was working in. When I found out what it was I made him go grab it and dispose of it. I told him if I ever saw that again he would be fired. Disgusting!
Passing the buck, two shakes at a time.
I think it would be ironic if we were all made of iron.
Maybe they have a phobia, and are apologetic, but there’s nothing they can do it about it accept try to be very careful as they go?
The ironic part is the fact that they're grossed out about their own piss but have no problem making someone else deal with someone else's piss
What he said was the very definition of ironic and is one of the reasons people do that
Not really. That's just called being an asshole.
Irony would be avoiding their own piss because they don't want to touch it, but the method they use to avoid it actually makes them touch it. Doesn't make sense, but that's irony.
The germophobe paradox.
The more one is afraid of germs, the dirtier they'll leave the place by not cleaning up after themselves.
True. Absolutely true. It's a fucked up reality
I've never thought of it being grossed out. I always just assumed they were lazy or assholes.
pee doesnt come out of the asshole
The thai food I ate last night begs to differ.
The College Dorm Paradox.
No one likes flushing the toilet, so they leave it. Then, the next person who comes in has to flush before using. So everyone ends up flushing, but it's their friends' poop instead of their own.
Do people actually dislike flushing the toilet? Seems like it’s more of a forgetfulness thing.
In a college, I'd hope that using the restroom is easy enough of a skill to master, but the minimum GPA for entry has been steadily declining...
Wtf just flush, if any of my suitemates refused to flush we'd have a serious issue lol
How's that ironic. It's just careless.
Ironic. He could be disgusted by the bathroom etiquette of others, but not himself.
I've stopped women who left the toilet covered in pee and told them to go back and clean up their piss. Its usually when there is a line for the bathroom too, so they get to be fucking mortified in front of a bunch of people. I've been standing here doing the pee pee dance waiting for a stall to open up, I can wait another minute while you clean up your biohazard.
When there's piss covering a toilet seat in the ladies room^†, it means one of two things:
A) Someone tiny had to use the restroom and hasn't 100% mastered the whole potty training thing
B) A woman, terrified of the horrors of the toilet seat, refused to sit on it. Instead, she hovered while she peed, and is therefore the REASON the fucking seats are so dirty to begin with.
If you're guilty of reason B, KNOCK IT THE FUCK OFF. Stop spraying your piss everywhere because you're under the mistaken assumption that you're too good to sit on the seat. Fuck you.
^† Unless it's in a bar
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Many people with back and other musculoskeletal problems can't hover or do bathroom acrobatics to clean off the seat themselves. So thanks for that. The elderly and otherwise disabled get to sit in your pee spray. I doubt you considered this, so I certainly don't think you're a monster or anything lol. But seriously. It's rude.
For both your peace of mind and mine, I suggest to bring disinfectant wipes with you and wipe down the seat after you hover, or wipe it down before you sit, then throw the used disinfectant wipe in the tampon receptacle. They sell little packets of 'em. I keep one in my car at all times. Comes in handy!
Edit: That last part makes it sound like I pee in my car, doesn't it.....
Put some TP down on the toilet seat, cochina.
That’s called the externalization of costs.
Whenever I get that urge to just leave it, some wise words go through my head:
"Cleaning up your own piss sucks. Cleaning up someone else's piss is infinitely worse."
They're not fine with it, they're just selfish and don't even think about it.
Here in lies the issue.... who knows how hydrated the guy before you was. There could very well be a clear drop on there. I'm not gonna risk touching his piss to wipe my 1 drop and I'm not gonna get face level with the seat to check for his piss. Everything sucks about taking a public dump but when I have to o accept that cleaning all the piss is the toll I pay.
Is that not a contradiction as opposed to irony?
I always put down TP in case the person before me pisses on the seat.
tfw i love pissing on my self. (in the shower ofc)
I know you thought that parenthetical made that whole sentence relatable...
🤔
I mean obviously... that's like saying "it's ironic that 'x' and yet they're perfectly happy with 'solution to x'".
He could wipe the piss of others but not himself, ironic
I’ve gotten into the habit of wiping my penis after I pee and the second advantage of the practice is that you can wipe the toilet seat after
Ironic, he could stop others from peeing on the seat, but not himself.
Or that they're ok with licking butts/cocks/pussies
It's insane the amount of women that spray toilet seats like feral animals in public restrooms...
Not just urine. The amount of times I've turned right around to wait for another stall because someone left period blood is astonishingly high.
I'd much rather touch my piss than other people's piss, so if everybody would touch their own piss then it wouldn't be a problem
Or menstrual blood.
How do these people have sex?
The only thing worse than your own body fluids is a stranger's body fluids.
I've never understood this. I am a woman, and it's safer and more sanitary for us to squat over public toilets. After doing it since I was a child, my aim is fantastic, but if I get a bit on the seat, I'm wiping it --- it's YOUR pee from YOUR body. I have worked in retail and customer service for 6 years and I hate it with a passion when people say "There's someone paid to do that." Okay? Their job is to MAINTAIN the bathrooms. That doesn't mean you get to completely destroy them to "give the janitor something to do". Makes my blood boil just thinking about it.
EDIT: If I'm pooping, you bet there's gonna be TP lain all around every square inch of the seat lol
Wait... so you are telling me people should take responsibility for their own actions AND be considerate to other people/other people’s stuff? Now THAT is going too far!!! /s
Edit: a letter and a word
And then get upset when someone does the same thing to them.
Soap works! Just wash your hands. You’ll be fine.
It's honestly more the mentality that 'they pay someone else to clean this' and that's worse than anything. Like yeah, the business may pay someone to clean up the everyday messes that occur, they don't employ someone specifically so that you can trash a bathroom guilt-free.
I still don't understand why people don't just sit on the toilet seat. Why would you purposely choose a more inaccurate form of peeing? And do people go from standing to sitting when they have to pee and poop?
Which is extra funny because unlike shit, piss is almost completely sterile.
Or they’re drunk and pissed/vomited everywhere :/
See, I don't feel this way out my own.. Like I'll barehand clean my own toilet with wipes and stuff, but if I'm cleaning up after strangers I'm gloving up.
that's not piss, buddy
can we skip passed the obvious piss and take a walk to the men's room and focus on ass hairs? I am a hairy assed man, but THAT one is hard for me to understand. grab some TP and brush your ass hairs into the bowl... maybe even flush them if you have the time, you filth!
Or they were too far back on the seat and left a doo doo butter stain.
Seriously. It was inside you until thirty seconds ago, and there's a place to wash your hands in the same room. It's no big deal.
Someone left their paper seat liner on the toilet at work the other day. It was horrifying
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Or afraid of their own piss mixed with an indeterminate among of other people’s piss.
It’s a snowball effect. Except instead of snow, it’s piss. A pissball effect, if you will.
Even worse than piss are the butt crack tracks some people leave. We’re all adults in this office; I shouldn’t have to wipe your crusty shit off the back of the toilet seat.
Isn't it ironic that you are mocking a fear whose disappearance would also imply disappearance of the problem at hand? i.e. you are even more afraid of their piss.
Best to just drink it
On a filthy toilet seat like that? Yeah.. im not saying if i pee all over the toilet seat i wont clean it up, but the public toilet seats disgust me and i will need a lot of toilet paper in my hand before i even consider wiping it off.
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No!
username checks right the fuck out.
It sure does. /r/poop
Redditor for 3 months and not a single comment that doesn't involve not flushing.
Someone has to spread the good word.
Yes
Can’t blame them if the toilet is automatic with no button. I never understood why so many toilets are automatic junk with no button in case it fails (which it can)
Seriously! Auto-toilets are the worst! They flush when your half way through taking a piss and then they don't flush when you're done! I don't get why they are so common, as long as people wash their hands they won't have bathroom germs on them.
Especially inconvenient when you wipe standing up
Are you kidding? If you aren't isn't there a chance the debris may fall on the seat?
I never had that problem with them before.
But...you gotta see this.
In California...
Well, the large intestine turns
And a dhiaretic little boy with a runny bum
Sits in the stall as the warm winds come
In the ghetto (in the ghetto)
In the ghettooh! (In the ghetto!)
The last thing on the "leaving on vacation" checklist. Never forget.
I once saw a disgusting shit left in a toilet, and the person covered the automatic snesor with toilet paper so it wouldn't flush
I like to think the people who don't flush the toilet are the same people who don't pick up their dog's shit
I don't think I've ever used a public toilet where the flush actually works. Part of the reason I tend to avoid them.
This statement is incredible. Not that I don’t believe you, but I can say that in my experience the vast majority of public toilets function as normal. May I ask what part of the world you’re from? I’m in the USA.
The UK. Our public toilets are generally considered to be shit (no pun intended).
Haha, good old Lisburn. I'd rather shit myself than take a dump in some of the public toilets there.
Recently, I used a public toilet, and several flushes didn't help. My apologies to the person who used it next (it wasn't an unusual amount either!)
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I hired a new guy once and he needed to use the bathroom before training. After he went, I went in. He'd somehow pissed all over the toilet seat and also hit the floor.
I had to come out and tell him to clean up his piss. Grown ass man.
This should be the last step of the interview process.
"Very good, Mr. Dementia. Now before we conclude this interview, I'd like you to go take a piss for me so I can inspect the toilet when you're done"
EDIT: fixed a sentence because I forgot Drug tests are an actual thing
If there's a drug test involved, you're already having this conversation.
I guess you're right. Fixed my sentence to make it awkward
Well I go above and beyond in interviews, so I'm going to take a massive dump.
A drug test is actually a genius cover for this! That way no one will think it's out of place and will act naturally, revealing their true bathroom habits! Plus you avoid people thinking your a weirdo for inspecting toilet habits. Genius, pure genius!
Not really though. If I'm not mistaken, you're expected to pee into a container for a drug test and this would get rid of most mess that would surround the toilet itself had they just gone to pee
What you need to do is offer them a large coffee while they wait for the interview and hope they accept. Then by the time the interview has concluded, obviously depending on the interview itself, they should need to pee
I just figured if they can't handle a toilet it would be even harder for them to handle a small container xD point taken though, I think the large coffee idea is even better haahaa.
Always check out the bathroom in a place where you apply for a job.
fixed a sentence because I forgot Drug tests are an actual thing
Found the fast-food worker. (not an insult)
Never worked fast-food and never will unless I'm absolutely required to. I've just been at the same office job for the last 5 years and before that I was at a dollar store, so I've never actually needed one myself
Oh was just a joke because I know fast-food never piss tests, due to working it most of my life. Those sensitive downvoters though. <3
Grown ass man here. I sit. It's my only peaceful time throughout the day, my bathroom time, damn if I ain't gonna have a seat and enjoy it.
I know this girl who complains about people pissing on the seat all the time, yet emasculates men who pee sitting down. Seriously? Wouldn't you RATHER I sit down?
Though in shared bathrooms women are also the culprits of pissing everywhere since they often try to hover over the seats and have poor directional control over their stream.
Yo forreal. Girls like this make no fucking sense at all. Like do you want cleanliness or manliness? As if you can’t be both or some shit.
It's not poor control, there is no control because there's nothing we can 'aim'
Same. Like, I use the urinals when they're there, and it's super convenient to be able to piss standing up when you go hiking and whatnot, but if im using a proper toilet, I'm sitting. Standing to use a toilet considerably more effort than it's worth.
I sit when I’m at home. Or in a VERY familiar bathroom (my moms house)
I agree, find out if they're an ass man
Just make sure the bathroom is clean before you send them in. Otherwise you’re blaming them for someone else’s piss.
Yeah, I'm a little curious how he knew the bathroom was clean beforehand, but it could be a small office where they never have that problem generally.
Ths should be no step of the interview process.
What kind of adult can not clean after themselves?
https://youtu.be/D3LONXlLwew around 3:30
It is normally. Just typically there's also a cup.
Funnily enough, I had to fire a young man from my store because he excused himself while working with a customer to use the restroom. It was a Sunday, so he was he only rep working, and he left the customer by herself in the store, and then left both the door to the backroom and the door to bathroom open while he relieved himself. She told me that he came back to help her like nothing was wrong. It was so odd. I'm lucky that the customer came back in to tell me what had happened. I'm confident she didn't steal anything, but who knows how others would have reacted.
Edit: finished typing.
our office shares a bathroom with an exterminator's office. their guys wreck the toilet. I've started taking a mini spray bottle of disinfectant with me to the toilet, and more times than I can count I've wiped splattered diarrhea off the underside of the seat and scrubbed skid marks off the sides of the toilet. I've also often had to flush the urinal for people (who for some reason have pee that smells like rotting fish). One time, I was in the stall, and one of their guys came in, peed, and I heard him barely flick the urinal handle before walking off. It CLEARLY didn't flush, and he just didn't care. I've also had to turn the sink off when I walk in. WHO DOESN'T TURN THE SINK OFF?
I'm a 20-something millennial, cleaning up after middle aged men. It's absolutely ridiculous.
and they've even had the gall to put signs up IN THE BATHROOM, the bathroom that we sometimes send clients to if they need to go, blaming us for it. WITH PICTURES. thankfully, we're an engineering office who keeps records and deflects liability, so we referred them to the sign above the toilet reminding people to flush, which WE requested that building management put up after too many incidents. they also came over to our office to blame us for "leaving a mess in the ladies' room," when we only have one woman who works in our office, and she wasn't there that day.
Edit: I just went in and not only was the toilet not flushed, but they somehow managed to break it off the studs. I gently kicked it and it moved an inch or two. How.
Assuming you live in North America and don't have bidets- cleaning the splatter underside and on the sides woth just toilet paper sounds horrifying. We have bidets in all the bathrooms in my country, and it's all high pressure water so it cleans right off lool
Those guys sound terrible omg I'm sorry you have to share the bathroom with them
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IBS my dude.
I worked in a distribution warehouse. Big semis from manufacturers would come in (Pillsbury, Downy, Solo, etc), we would store goods and prepare orders to ship in our own light trucks to local restaurants. We had the bathroom in the main office, which we couldn't use, and the bathroom in the warehouse, that the truckers that delivered here would use, and what fucking animals they were. Drawings and smearings on the wall, piss on the floor, literally destroyed fixtures etc. It got so bad that we refused to clean it anymore and started running out to the woods if we needed the bathroom
I think it's the fact that the people don't have to stick around. The exterminators just come in to get assignments and supplies, and apparently to wreck the toilet. The truck drivers may never see your place again. Meanwhile, I'm here 9 hours a day - that's OUR bathroom. I can't swing by a gas station or McDonald's if the toilet is wrecked. But those guys don't care, they're just dropping in.
But those guys don't care, they're just dropping in.
From the description of the bathroom given above, I don't think they're doing a lot of dropping in.
That's not just ignorance, inattentiveness, laziness or germaphobia -- that's downright malicious. Ten bucks says those people don't treat their own bathrooms that way... or maybe they do. I wouldn't want to find out, though. Bunch of dicks.
(who for some reason have pee that smells like rotting fish)
That would be an infection of the urinary tract and/or bladder.
That's really unusual for males. Wonder how more than one of them got one at the same time.
To be fair, not flushing the urinal is not a big deal... saves some water of which an unacceptable amount gets wasted flushing every time. Same with flushing the toilet....if it's yellow, let it mellow. In our house the rule is flush #2, or flush if you are going #2 and don't want piss/water backsplash. But as long as it is getting flushed on a semi-regular basis, the urine won't smell or cause any issues. It's the piss that makes it onto the outside of the toilet/floor that starts to stink. The rotting fish urine smell isn't because the guys have something fucked up going on in their kidneys,. it's because piss is getting outside of the urinal and the urinals are not getting cleaned properly.
If a urinal is never flushed but cleaned and flushed once a day, bonus for a urinal cake present, there should be no odor. We also have these wonderful inventions: https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-tech/sustainable/waterless-toilet4.htm
As for getting piss and/or shit on the toilet seat... there is no excuse for that and that disgusts me as much as you. There's no defending that...
That was a POWER move, he should have told the boss that you did it and taken your job.
Wouldn't it be a power move to piss on his boss and take his job?
I manage the company. I suppose he could have gone to the owner and claimed right of ascension via urine-spatter.
We had an employee bathroom and I always called people out who were in there before me, I didn't care who heard. It's fucking childish and the girls used it during the rush. It was usually easy to tell who did it anyway.
Good for you. Guys who can't learn to aim or clean up after themselves should be shamed and made to sit.
Certain men have urethral openings +/- tighter frenulums that crease a little or stick at the tip, causing the urine to spiral or spray when they are more contracted and/or less urine volume to keep the urethra patent
Good thing they (usually) only have the one dick so they have no excuse for not knowing how to cleanly take a piss with however their dick shoots it out.
All men have experienced the piss stream with a mind of its own.
You still mop up the piss.
100%. I wonder if it's all a result of that shiver we all get mid-piss from once in a while.
These men need to sit then.
Wow that’s cool, does their fucked up frenulum prevent them from sitting or picking up tp to clean up their piss?
haha. I was just answering the 'somehow'. The lack of clean up is all him
That sucks. They ought to learn to sit if they aren't physically geared for ranged deployment.
Maybe grown in height but not in mental capacity. If you cant even piss properly you aint a man.
Barring an injury or medical condition, how does anyone not master pissing by adulthood? You practice anything several times a day, every day for nearly 20 years, you generally get more accurate/efficient at it.
Did you also go in there ahead of time to make sure the area was clean before the candidate went in there? It seems like it could have been anybody. Were you testing to see if the candidate would clean up after the current employees?
It was an empty office, I had previously used the bathroom a few hours ago (just one toilet/sink/etc). I went in again because I needed to pee before we headed out. Urine everywhere.
Ok I've always fucking wondered, what are their home bathrooms like? Do they piss all over theirs too, or just the ones that aren't theirs?
I'm honestly not sure which is worse.
Is this some depth perception fail?....
I think it's just laziness. My depth perception is shit and I do just fine unless I'm drunk. When I'm drunk, I just sit down to avoid making a mess, and I clean up if I do make any messes (even out in public). People need to clean up their own shit.
Agreed
I once worked with a lady who would brag about how she never made all of her poop in the toilet. I had to witness that scene one day where I was thankfully not working. It was all over the toilet and I believe on the floor. :/
The :/ somehow makes this 10x funnier. I can imagine you going in, seeing the shit, and then...:/
I work for a contractor. I want to hang a sign over the pisser that says "If it's too small to aim, sit."
I'm stealing this idea. Thanks!
I work with a bunch of software engineers, and I'm always amazed at some of the things that happen in the bathrooms.
For instance: why would you spit your gum in the urinal on top of the plastic mesh? You have to realize that's not going to flush, and someone's going to have to pick it out of there, right?
I hope you fired him lol
Not for this, but eventually he was fired after numerous other screwups.
[deleted]
He eventually did get fired, after several egregious fuckups and client complaints.
Parkinson's?
He was a healthy 21 year old male with no visible tremors. Doubtful.
nervous or a pissing masturbator.
possible seizure
Imagine if it wasn't him who peed everywhere, but he just didn't want to clean up someone else's piss. Then he got scolded by his boss and was made to go back in and clean the piss.
It was without doubt him. I had already used it earlier, he was the only other guy who had been in there.
Could have been someone before him
It was definitely him. I'd been there for hours that day and had already used it.
I was a team lead at my old job and we had 3... THREE meetings for the men on my team over the course of a year about bathroom etiquette. People always got piss all over, or left their shitting tp nests on the toilet seat. And nobody ever refilled the soap or toilet paper when it ran out (we were a small office and our cleaning guy was only there once a week).
God those meetings were embarrassing
Yeah that would have been his last day on the job.
But what if it had been the person that used the toilet before him that left a mess?
I used to the only woman working in my small office before quitting, and there was always piss on the toilet seat. I legit tore them a new one a few times over it. Just bloody clean up!
They'd also use up all the toilet paper (which was stored in a cabinet outside the bathroom) and never replace it, much to my amusement (not), but that's another matter entirely.
Maybe it was the guy before him?
Empty office, I had last used the bathroom a few hours before.
How did you know it wasn't the guy before him?
I was the guy before him (I'd used it a few hours earlier. Nobody else in the office).
....They peed and didn't lift the seat? How is this not incredibly obvious?
Some toilets have pretty violent flushes in public to avoid clogging. It can sometimes be so violent the water splashes up and lands on he toilet seat. Happens to me every so often but I always make sure I wipe it off. Other than that, yeah people are dicks and don't lift.
I actually think this is the case more than people realize. Unless the seat is just covered, it may well have been splashback from the flushing process.
Ask that to my 30 year old roommate. You’ve got a good career, you do all you shit on time and are responsible with everything else, how do you piss all over the seat multiple times a day? I leave the seat up all the time just so next time I take a shit I don’t have to inspect the seat for puddles of urine. Nothing worse than sitting in someone’s cold piss when you’re trying to take a shit.
Alright, let me talk to him
[deleted]
Don't lift seat
Pee
Leave
You want "why" not "how"
"It's not mine"
"I don't care"
and/or
"I ain't touching that thing"
is how.
People dont realise that you should close the lid before flushing either...
Put blu ink in your toilets then flush open. Then consider all the blue drops around are watery shit-piss
Who flushes anymore?
Huh, redditor for 3 months. Username checks out
Instructions unclear: http://i.imgur.com/1Kci50R.gif
Why the fuck would anyone pee on the seat though? I can understand if you're 5 and can't control your shit, but grown ass men?
It’s not that easy for me. My piss splits so often and it’s not even when I jerked off or anything. That said I don’t piss with the seat down anymore
Is this something common in some societies? I don't understand who would piss with the seat down. It seems totally illogical to me. I'm a man.
I can imagine that some jerk leaves the seat down and then fucks up and pisses on it. Of course he doesn't clean up. After that, next guy sees no point in lifting the seat, he maybe pisses on the seat (can't make it any worse, right?), and a little bit flows onto the floor... you can see where this goes. Check out any movie theater men's washroom. After a few experiences standing on a sticky floor in a stall, I now restrict my waste disposal to my own home, except in the most dire emergency.
I agree with you. Some attitudes develop through reinforcement, "why should I do it, if nobody before me did anything?"
People suck. Not everyone, not even most people, but lots of them suck.
Always hated having to put the seat up and my piss used to shoot pretty straight so I said fuck it
It takes all of 1 second to raise the seat, why not do it?
How do you know they aren't 5? Or disabled or something?
Also some people are just shitty
Some people are lazy
Not all penises are the same. Some men, especially if they have foreskin, have a stream of urine that splits into two, or that comes out as a flat stream. It is not always a perfectly guided parabola, but more like a fan of droplets. It's embarrassing if that happens, especially if you are in a hurry. I can understand that, but if it happens, it doesn't take a lot of time to just grab a piece of paper and clean the drops.
It doesn't take a lot of time to put the seat up either though
Agree.
Some guys like to pee sitting down.
Clearly they aren't the ones hosing the seat down.
Not possible after the savages have soaked the seat.
I can easily pee with the seat down and not put a shitload of drops on the seat.
Sucks that you aren't the entire population.
Have fucked that up on occasion and found that gap between the bowl and the seat.
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Some women think the seat is inherently dirty, so they hover in a squat over the toilet while they pee. Then they piss all over the seat, thereby causing the very issue they worry about.
Some of these same women probably don't think twice about all the door handles, shopping handles, etc. that they touch that spread germs. Just toilet seats have germs.
I've heard that before, but they seriously can't lift the seat first? The same women that are shouting at men to put the seat down refuse to lift it for themselves.
That would require they would be willing to touch the seat and since they are not willing to touch it with their arse, I doubt they would do so with their hand.
I always ask my husband how he manages to get pee on every conceivable surface of the toilet and he just answers with "it's not a constant stream". Um ok but why/how is it on the back of the toilet tank?!
How the hell are you inspecting the back of the tank without pulling the entire toilet?!?!??
Our toilet tank is a good 5" from the wall, I was cleaning the bathroom, which includes reaching behind the tank to wipe off the dust and apparently pee.
Huh. You could get a towel between the tank and the wall for ours, but definitely not enough room to get even a dental mirror back there.
Oh man.
The other day I sat down, and my dick got caught somehow in the crack between the seat and the bowl.
So I started peeing, and it went full force onto the ceramic right there, and sprayed out the side onto the wall. It was terrifying and I did not expect it.
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You are the first person who mentions having double or just irregular streams. I swear most women think a stream of pee is supposed to be laser-guided all the time. It's not.
Foreskin, or just the shape of the tip of the penis in that particular moment can cause the stream to take different shapes. It's impossible to know how the stream will come out before it actually flows out. And when it does come out in a strange angle, you only have like 10 seconds to correct the issue before it starts spilling everywhere.
To your second point, I don't get why men use a toilet bowl to pee when there are plenty of wall urinals. This happens on malls and movie theaters often. Are men than shy? And what about those urinals that have walls separating them. Still shy? I never pee in a bowl if there is a urinal available. Even if it's occupied, I can usually hold it for an extra minute. Nothing beats the sensation of comfortably peeing while standing up, with the urinal next to you. It takes the aiming the center of bowl out of the equation.
Split streams. Usually uncontrollable.
Seriously. I work for a multi-billion dollar company and the bathrooms here look like shit. People put toilet paper on the seats instead of the provided seat covers and then NOT throw out or flush when they leave. Piss all over the place, shit all over the place...like what the fuck?
Let me guess. You work for an IT company. So, Asians.
Asians, Russians, and Indians. I'm none of those.
I didn't imply that you were, but that most of your colleagues were, hence the mess.
Yep!!!
Sometimes the piss comes out in a triple stream(happens to me more often than not).
Yes I clean it after.
It's embarrassing. It happens to the best of men. Clean afterwards, and there will be no problems, though.
At my work the floor around the toilet is always wet. I dont understand.... My mom apparently works with men who thinks it's ok to use the cleaner women's and mess it up to. Then she goes on to emasculate them once caught red handed
My ex-husband genuinely seemed to have a problem with not getting piss on the floor. Worse, he tried to blame our housemate (who I know sits to piss - he's lazy and likes to play games no matter his toilet needs), our cats and even said, "Are you sure it's not you?" Eventually, after me exploding after stepping in piss one morning, he did actually start sitting down (not what I asked him to do, but apparently watching where you're pissing or at least checking the floor was too much to ask). Lo and behold, no piss on the floor from then on.
He sounds like a narcissist. Somebody who is not willing to accept his faults.
Nah, he definitely doesn't think at all highly of himself. He's a morbidly obese pathalogical liar who combated his crippling insecurity by using my anxiety to make me incapable of leaving him (he basically never let me do anything to face my anxiety and anyone with anxiety knows it's hard to want to do things that make you feel like shit). Unfortunately, he did find someone else, so he'll never learn to like himself. On the other hand, she's quite sneaky and manipulative (although has always been very nice to me, I definitely feel no malice towards her), so perhaps somewhat deserving of one another?
The not accepting that it was him thing was more because telling the truth and just going, "Shit, sorry," goes against his automatic response, which is to lie.
telling the truth and just going, "Shit, sorry," goes against his automatic response,
He sounds like a narcissist. Somebody who is not willing to accept his faults.
Narcissists are self-obsessed, though. He just can't not lie.
The original definition of narcissist is somebody who is completely enamored with oneself. However, this definition has expanded today to include the notion that one is always right, and not at fault at all. What you described sounds like narcissism to me. I wouldn't use a very narrow definition.
Sure, but he doesn't think he's right, he just can't not lie. Genuinely, as a 24-year-old man, he once lied to me about brushing his teeth. I know narcissists, my ex-husband is not one. He's just an arsehole.
I see. Well, thank you for the discussion. And I hope you found a better partner, because he sounded like a difficult person to deal with.
I have, thanks. And yes, he was crap.
I’ll give you one better at my work there is piss ON TOP of the urinal. You have to purposely do that on your tippy toes. I’m tall and aimed and I was still too short.
Man has a great urge to pee, he desperately tries to unzip his pants, and when he does, the stream just shoots in all directions with force, including up. That's my only explanation.
I've never had a huge urge like that, but depending on the position of the urinal, size of the man, force of the stream, etc., I think it's doable.
Especially in bathrooms with urinals.
If you are so embarrassed someone might see your teeny weenie, or afraid you might catch teh gay because you can't avert your gaze, and so insist on using the toilet instead, then at least sit the fuck down.
There is no reason for a modern man to be afraid of using a urinal. Moreover when those urinals have those flimsy separation walls.
Why is everything always wet?
I have a long commute, and I usually need to pee when I first get in to work. First person to use the bathroom all weekend and the place is just sopping wet. I swear the sprinkler heads in there just spray piss when nobody is looking.
Is it wet with pee, or just water? I had the experience in Asia that cleaning personnel basically douse the bathroom floor with a high pressure hose, clean, and then leave the remaining water to air dry.
I really doubt that's the case. It always smells like pee in there. Given that the grout on the floor is black, and it gets lighter as it gets higher up the wall, going to wager that's not the case though.
PIss hits the water in the bowl and jumps. True story.
At least once a day at my college, I'll find a toilet seat in the men's room with a ton of piss all over it! It's infuriating because we're supposed to be grown ass men; we have dicks, we can aim; we have an abundance of toilet paper to clean our messes! But then again, I see people just wet their hands for a second then take ten paper towels to dry their unwashed hands
Lol. College to me does not imply grown men. I see people from 18 to 25 years old like basically big children. Once you get into the workforce and become a productive member of society, your overall behavior really changes.
The demographics show my school have the majority of students working outside of school, actually. Still, I know children who know not to piss on toilet seats, at the very least to clean up after yourself. You'd think it'd be common sense.
You know what they say about common sense... it's not that common.
I work in a gas station and our men's bathroom is frequently out of order. When men use the women's restrooms I ALWAYS find piss on the floor and on the rim of the toilet bowl. Always without fail. Despite this, I see so many threads on Reddit where people say the women's restroom is always worse than the men's. Like yeah sometimes women leave the toilet bloody and it is gross, no denying that, but is it worse than piss everywhere except where it should be? I dunno about that.
Why is the men's bathroom out of order? It's a genuine question. Too many flushes eventually damage the mechanism? Bowl breaks? Water pipe rupture?
I don't know tbh. It wasn't flushing for a few days the one time.
If you are talking about droplets, due to physics when a stream of water hits the same spot over time it causes a larger splashback flinging droplets in the air. Only way to try and prevent this problem is to piss like a drunk and move the stream around, or sit down.
Part of this is we "leak" to varying degrees. I can spend 20 minutes sitting down, everything is out, but then when I get up I somehow leak a few drops onto the seat. I always wipe it off though.
You are supposed to press alongside your penis to release the last droplets of urine that are still in the urethra. Just like a hose, there may be some pockets of air and water inside.
Also, you are supposed to grab a square of paper and place it on the tip of the penis so it absorbs the last droplets of urine that may drop. Not doing that is how you get white underwear with a yellow stain in front. Yes, people leak, so you need to clean the last droplets so it doesn't leak once you put your underwear on.
The real Penis Pro Tips are in the comments!
Some toilets are a little... overzealous, shall we say, about their flushing.
I'm always bothered why there are men here at work who, despite there being multiple urinals open and available to them, make straight to a stall instead. Like, I'm standing here waiting to poop because you decided to use the one and only toilet to pee. Are you pee-shy? What gives?
How do you know they aren't pooping?
By the direction their feet are facing.
Your username makes your desire for an answer highly suspicious. Highly suspicious indeed.
Hopefully they left some proof!
Many men who do it don't even bother closing the door of the stall. You can see them, standing, facing the bowl, stream of pee going to the bowl. Why... not... use... the... urinal?
That's weird. Stalls are for pooping and leaving the poop.
Exactly. Many men do it, and they don't even bother closing the door of the stall because they just go for a pee. They are pee shy? Why?
I also don't understand the "checking out" other men's junk when on the urinals. I look only towards my penis and the wall.
sometimes at the beginning or end of my piss, the power of the hole opening or closing causes it to go in wierd directions
Other than people with no aim... I did once see toilets that flushed so violently they splashed all over, kid you not. Those need to be eliminated
One of my roommates does this. I ended up putting a sticky note on the wall at eye level saying "stop pissing on the fucking floor" after I had had enough of it because I was the only one who ever cleaned.
Your incredulity would be more apt if it were in regards to women's bathrooms because weiners
In ~~men's~~ women's bathrooms, how the hell is there piss all over the seat?
When it comes out it comes out like a fire hose. It literally bounces off the water in the toilet bowl and lands on the seat.
Agreed. And if I get pee on the rim of the toilet, I wipe it up. Common fucking courtesy. Also: wads of toilet paper in urinals. What the fuck, why? And in general, toilet paper strewn all over a bathroom stall. What in the hell?
Shy men who won't use the urinal who feel the need to both stand and not lift up the seat. Then they either are bad at aiming, or their piss is being evacuated with such force that it splashes up all over the place.
No shit. What guy wasn’t taught to lift the fucking seat before taking a piss? And even if not taught, surely they’ve had to clean the piss off a seat from some other moron that didn’t and should at least have thought “why the fuck didn’t that guy lift the seat?” and do so for that reason alone.
There is piss on a seat because some men do not know how to aim a penis at a toilet bowl, and do not have the decency to clean it. The real mystery is how urine ends up on the wall next to a urinal.
In women's bathrooms, how the hell is there piss all over the seat?
It has always boggled my mind. Do people squat over the toilet? Sit the heck down and piss like a normal person.
Women's bathrooms are more unbelievable.
They don't like urinals and don't want to put the seat up because they don't want to touch it.
As a man, I do something very simple that not just women, but everyone loves (who likes to see pee stains?). When I pee, I lift BOTH lids up first (use a couple plys of toilet paper to protect your hand your hand from direct contact in public toilets if you don't want to touch the lid), pee carefully toward the center of the bowl to avoid getting droplets on the rim, then when I'm done, I simply get a couple plys of tp and give the rim a quick wipe in a single motion around the rim. It adds like 5 seconds to your routine, makes a world of difference, and makes it so your toilet doesn't need a deep clean for twice as long, since there aren't unsightly yellow stains.
I do exactly this. I learned it growing up with 3 sisters who would yell at me for getting drops on the toilet seat. I lift the seat now but still wipe the rim because once I had my roommate's piss from the rim get on my pants while I was dropping trou.
Now I don't even think about it. It's just courtesy at this point.
To add to this: I always close both lids. Adds basically no time, leaves the bathroom looking a little nicer, and no one ever complains that I left the toilet seat up.
Same!
Yeah I generally do this at home but I'm less inclined to for public toilets. Too many times I've been caught out by a few drops of piss hidden between the seat and the lid that dribble down into my fingers when I lower it down.
Although if they are soft closing seats it doesn't matter, just give them a tap with a tissue and chuck it in whilst it lowers.
Closing the lid is the true answer to the toilet seat wars. Everyone does the same amount of work, everyone learns to check before they pee, and nothing gets accidentally dropped in the toilet bowl. Wins all round.
The more general approach is: be mindful about how your actions (or inaction) impact other people.
Surely, but baby steps.
Like the old saying goes, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time...
Sometimes I go into a bathroom to pee, and someone has already pissed on the seat. As a guy, here are the choices:
Don't lift the seat, and potentially add to the pee on the seat for the next guy or gal to deal with
Lift the seat, and the pee dribbles all over by gravity. Then what?
2.a. Lift the seat, pee, then lower it back down. Dow the next person thinks you were the seat pee-er.
2.b. Lift seat, pee, leave seat up. Now the next person gets a surprise when they lower it down to either sit on or be polite for the next person.
I end up cleaning off the piss every time, it's gross, but whatever.
Hell make sure the bowl is empty. Hold the lever until everything's actually flushed away. I shouldn't have to walk in and see how much TP you use.
I work with a bunch of able bodied adults and it boggles my mind how people spray the toilet seat with shit. Fucking animals man
I've yelled at people leaving the stall without flushing before. It's infuriating. Why's it gotta be my job to flush your dung?
One time when I was in the Navy I peed on a seat. I didn’t clean it and was called out by another guy just coming into the stall. I was at a school for mechanics at that time and the guy who called me out was my same rank but he was an instructor. Well I got in trouble and had to give a report in front of 300 other student on why not to pee on a seat.
I get that people are afraid of germs so they don't want to touch the seat, but urine is sterile, right? And if it is your own, you've already got those germs! Clean up!
but urine is sterile, right
Nope. Not even in healthy people.
But, as you said, it's your piss and your germs, wipe that mess up!
It’s not even like you need to touch pee, I’ll bunch up a bunch of toilet paper and wipe the seat, piss never touches my hands. Toss it in the toilet and flush.
This probably the best actual answer to the question rather than just suggestions on "what I think people should do"
And use the toilet brush after you've flushed if necessary. Nobody wants to see traces of your remains.
There need to be signs in every women's bathroom stall that say, "Don't hover, use a cover."
I work at a college and take maybe 3+ bathroom breaks a day. Rarely do I encounter a stall that doesn't have someone else's urine on the seat.
Yes!
In my university, I would occasionally see shoeprints on the seats from people squatting on the actual toilet seat. As if pee wasn't bad enough, now whatever they have on their shoe is on the seat. Women can be disgusting beasts.
Kick the seat up when you're about to piss. So easy yet so many people piss on the seat.
Also I wish half the guys I work with would use the urinals instead of going into the stalls and pissing all over the everything. Is it ethical to tazer co-workers for making a mess?? Because as hard as it would be...I would make that choice.
My bathroom habits are immaculate and thank fuck for that. I think if we just killed everyone who is a bathroom skank, then the world would grow green and healthy again.
Can we start an anti-bathroom stank vigilante group? We can spray them with Lysol and bleach.
Probably a better idea than mine XDDD
well? share! I wanna hear it! xD
I said it before you silly! Kill them or something lmao...
Bah! Fiiiiiiiine xD
I don’t understand why some people choose not to flush, like why? Are you lazy or just want to stick the next person with the job of flushing your shit?
like an avalanche comin' down the mountain.
One slob leaves a mess and it's all down hill from there.
This. There is a special place in hell for hover pissers. The total lack of courtesy, especially for cleaning staff, enrages me.
Thanks for being thoughtful.
Honestly, I thought this was a guy only problem, with piss/pubes on seats.
Good to know shitty bathroom etiquette knows no gender, so...uhh...hooray equality?
Oh, dude. Women are awful. The entitlement to piss everywhere is apparently for health reasons? Cos' nether parts will fall off if one sits on a toilet seat (like, fuck sakes. Carry some cleaning wipes then). I'm still stumped on how women actually hover piss without getting their clothes wet. But yeah. Woo equality.
I do this all the time. It's infuriating getting to the toilet and there's shitstains, pubes, and buttcrack lint on the seat. My shit taking ritual begins and ends with a good wipe of the seat with toilet paper. And I've done this since I was a kid. I've probably wasted a ton of toilet paper wiping down toilets that were probably clean but didn't trust to rest my ass on til I cleaned it myself.
Sidenote: I'm literally typing this while on the toilet.
This only works if the seat was clean before you went in. I'm not gonna clean up some other guy's piss.
642221
It's always worse when the toilet flushes so strongly it shoots water all over the fucking place.
Ugh. The people that hover are doing it because of other people that hover. Ouroboros...
Nah, if you don't have to poop, you should piss everywhere and not flush it or clean up.
How is this not the top comment? YES
My philosophy regarding toilets that do not belong to you:
Private toilets (friend's house, etc.) - leave them cleaner than you found them. Real easy to grab another wad of toilet paper when you're done and wipe the rim of the bowl. You're washing your hands afterwards anyway... aren't you, you sick fuck?
Public toilets - leave them as clean as you found them. I'm not saying pick up floor dookies or wipe piss off the walls, just don't make it any worse for the poor sod who has to clean it.
I think it's more to do with people giving less fucks when it's not their own toilet to clean. Same with any other public or community thing that requires basic maintenance
Poo it forward.
Also, flush before you leave the stall
And if you're one of the weirdos that has to make a toilet nest, PLEASE flush that shit when you're done. I'd rather sit on dried piss than that
If we don't make the bathroom as gross as possible how are we going to get people to push for laws allowing us to pee outside?
As someone who works retail and shares a bathroom with the public PLEASE do this!! The messes people have left in there would make you weep. And most of the time we know who you are!!
As the mother of boys, YES!
Someone left skids on the seat at work today. Not sure how that's possible
THIS. I walked into a stall the other day and someone had pulled the tp too hard and left a bunch on the floor still attached to the roll. I thought to myself "what kind of a person just leaves the stall like this??!" I pull it off and put it in the toilet, go to do my business and get a nice wet sensation as I sit.
"Ah. The same type of person who pisses all over the seat without cleaning it." Not pleased.
Judge me if you will for being lazy/unsanitary and sitting but I'm at work and I shouldn't have to squat there.
Omg this. I work in the sales department at a hotel and we have a new front desk agent who would leave the seat dirty with what I'm 99.9% sure was shit. The only way he was doing that was if he wasn't using a toilet seat cover, which is pretty gross on its own. I had to clean it once(with gloves) because I needed to go and I couldn't sit on the seat like that, even with a toilet seat cover on. The second time I saw it happened I put a sign on the toilet basically asking people(but really him) to please clean up after themselves. It hasn't happened since then, thankfully.
Similarly: don’t miss the urinal. Not that hard.
Also brush the toilet. I hate the feeling of having to take a shit on an "used" stall.
I had an epiphany while traveling in Asia this year: Flushing floor toilets (aka squat toilets) don't require you to touch ANYTHING. I actually grew to appreciate them for that reason. That having been said, SIT DOWN TO PEE OR WIPE UP THE FREAKIN' MESS, PEOPLE!
wait... people don't do this already? Like on average. I knew some people didn't because public bathrooms but like on average don't most people do this?
I hate it more when it's someone who doesn't bath just sits down on it and stands to take a shit and when they leave they left a thick layered skin mark on it that actually is a tin layer of dead skin.
fucking disgusting. Nothing more disgusting when I sit down and the previous dude that was on it was this guy in the office and all I feel are his ass on the seat. Last time it happend I got up, went home, took a shower and came back. Never do I sit now without first glancing a light shine on it to see if it reflects back properly.
How is this ethical?
Id like to agree with this but I'll only clean it if it's clean before I get there and then I dirty it myself. If there's caked on piss from the first 15 guys to use the toilet I probably will do everything I can to never touch the toilet during my visit.
Or simply flushing the god damn toilet after you’ve taken a massive dump, like wtf is wrong with you
Guys that piss standing up because they are scared that sitting down is somehow gay or whatever is so weird...
I sit down to piss and it's far simpler and it doesn't leave the stall disgusting. I mean, no one but lunatics shit standing up, so why not piss sitting down? If you need to piss in a toilet, then you might as well sit down.
It would drastically reduce the amount of piss on public toilets everywhere.
I hate going for my daily work poop and seeing that my favourite stall has been destroyed in such a manner that it is clear that the last person not only didn't clean up, but went out of their way to dirty up the seat and back for the next person. I don't understand the desire to be so unusually cruel to random people/whatever poor janitor had to eventually clean that stuff. :'(
Me, stuck at ORD for 3 hours last week, in dire need of taking a shit.
Literally EVERY single toilet I found walking back and forth between two concourses for 20 mintues had piss all over the seat. The one I found that didn't, the door didn't lock and just kind of swayed in and out.
Fuck everyone.
Potty training my 3 year old little guy. He knows that if he sprinkles when he tinkles he has to wipe the seat of... teaching him young
I've begun leaving the toilet seat up in public restrooms, even unisex restrooms because some guy inevitably will come along and pee all over the seat and leave it
Please this! Having kids has absolutely made me wipe the seat even if I haven’t used the toilet(if I see it has pee and it wasn’t me type thing)... because as toddlers it’s easy to hold them up and they don’t need to touch the seat BUT older children sit on the toilet and placing toilet paper down just for it to absorb your pee and having to clean it as my child is pee pee dance around the bathroom or stall ... gosh darn it people can you please for the moms out there with kiddos CLEAN THE TOILET SEAT! Pleasssse
Also, for the people who are afraid of getting micro sprayed with their own piss/shit by flushing a public toilet with no lid, you can put a toilet seat cover on it to flush.
Also wipe down the seat before you go potty. Nobody wants to feel wet under their thighs.
Also before you sit down . Once used the restroom and stood up to wipe . Wiped poop but I didn’t poop . 💀💀
Flushing would be good too.
As someone with Celiac disease I use public stalls probably more than the average person. This is my biggest pet peeve. How hard is it to lift the seat? How hard is it to aim? How hard is it to flush?
The answer to most of the reasons people don't do these things is washing their hands. It's so gross seeing how many people don't even wash their hands.
Too much to ask for me, I'd settle for all my coworkers washing their hands before leaving the bathroom. Some of them are strangers to soap.
And make sure you flush!
There should really be sanitizer in the stalls.
I am flabbergasted at the particular places I've seen waste around the porcelain thrown. I'm not even talking coloscapy bag.
TIL: Feces are more sterile than urine, so shit all over the sear instead of of pissing all over it. Muhahahaha
That or lift it up to pee, then put it back down after for da lady folk
Just sit and pee. Your prostate will thank you. Amd everyone else who don't have to step in pee.
You are a good person
While you're at it, make sure that you clean up any water you spilled outside of the sink while washing your hands. I'm not sure how people get so much water on the counter.
Or always check to see if the seat is down and then you won't have to bitch at me for leaving it up.
The worst is when there's only a stall left and it's a nightmare and you run into the guy who was just in there, get in and think for fuck sake buddy. Only to then realize that you also don't wanna clean someone else's shit and have that awkward eye contact with the next guy on the way out. Just like lion King, life truly is cylcical
We recently had someone at work who would consistently piss in the trash can and occasionally smear feces on the sink. I don't understand some people
I went into the bathroom at work the other day and I literally didn’t understand what could have happened. Someone committed a war crime against that poor toilet. There was diarrhea all over the inside of the bowl, but also splatters on the seat itself. The smell nearly made me vomit and I have a very strong stomach, generally speaking. I don’t get how someone could leave that there for some poor bastard to walk in on, let alone the poor person who had to clean it up after them. People should at least make an attempt to clean up their shit.
No problems, my pee is clean. /s
I'm a dog walker, so sometimes I'm forced to use public rest rooms. Had to go number 2 at a Nordstrom Rack yesterday, and the stall was atrocious. Pulled out some hand sanitizer and grabbed a bunch of to, cleaned it right up and then santized my hands. Seriously looked spotless when I left. May not have smelled great, but it looked great.
And the floor, please. I've had to clean period blood and shit off floors. Unless you're disabled or like 80 or high off your ass what's your disgusting excuse for leaving that
If I'm in my house or some else's home then yes. Public toilet, then fuck that, I'm going any where near that even with a baseball mit of paper towels.
Probably just in the men's room - but it seems like about 20% of the times I go to a stall, it looks like they filmed a Cronenberg movie in there.
This. Always this. I work at a gas station, and the state of the mens room is disgusting. Here's the kicker though, our mens room is out of order for renovations, and even after all the guys that have used the ladies room, its spotless. Men will trash their own bathroom, but take the utmost care if a lady has to use the same toilet. Why can't men respect their own bathroom like that?
THANK YOU!! I constantly think - who do you think you are that someone should have to clean your pee of the seat?!?
I really can't believe how many public bathrooms are just covered in piss.
Or can we at least flush the goddamn toilet?
If you're a dude, put the seat up when you leave. If you leave it down, there is a 100% chance that someone is going to piss all over it, and that's going to make life really sad for the next person who has to poop.
At school it’s at a completely different level, I think people purposely pee on the seat (or even the toilet paper)
NO!
Seriously. I hate going into stalls with pissy seats because I have to clean someone elses piss so the next person doesn't think it's my piss
No upper deckers, guys!
Also, flush.
Some of those shit stains are older than you are, you're erasing history.
I always wipe the seat before I sit, and you wouldn't believe how often I find stuff I wouldn't have seen. I also wipe before I leave because I'm a good citizen
Have zero clue how this is so hard. at my job there is a can of lysol next to the toilet. Simply spray some on and wipe it off with a piece of toilet paper and flush it its literally that easy.
And the floor in front of it!
Last night I walked into the (unisex) bathroom at the gym right after a guy and the seat was covered in piss and pubes. What the fuck?
A living will and power of attorney why they are important ethically
My living will says that if I'm ever incapacitated without a chance to recover, that my loved ones have to kill me with their own bare hands.
[deleted]
Unless the cat kills you with it's bare paws, because those aren't hands
Why would a car have bear paws?
It's an American cat so it has the right to bear arms.
More importantly is our right to arm bears
Indeed, it is a fundamental right.
Both the left and right bear paws need arms.
Can this be a meme now?
SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!
(Sorry, I'm drunk)
Bear arms in fringe should be the next fad in fashion.
Did you just assume that cat's nationality??
Underrated reply.
It's a Russian cat
Da
Bears
Still suck
Beat Battlestar Galactica.
I'm really happy that I read this string of comments through to the end.
You've done it. You've made it to the end!
The
Да*
Hyet
Нет*
Haha bet I made ya look though
Relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7zU2YDNHeo
So that's why the 2016 memes were so spicy!
Of course the cat is fast, so what?
so it has the right to arm bears?
Some may call it the Vodkat
^^^I'm ^^^prouder ^^^of ^^^this ^^^than ^^^I ^^^should ^^^be
Why would a car have any kind of paws?
You put brake shoes on the brake paws
Clearly the second amendment... bear arms and all!
2nd amendment
Wow, that was a minefield.
If you made it down here, do some brain stretches before moving on.
Even cars have a right to bear arms.
It’s a feral druid
There’s nothing in the handbook that says a cat can’t commit first degree murder.
r/catsmurderingtoddlers
But cats are sneaky, they find a way to blame the dog.
Its
*its, you fucking idiot. Why doesn't anybody on Reddit understand that "it's" isn't possessive?
Who cares
I wonder how cats will divide the estate
"Mr. Jingles gets hoomin's left thigh, Slinky gets hoomin's ribs, Bimbo gets the tongue, and Skiddy gets the liver".
Plot Twist: The cat gets everything anyway and the family goes to jail for murder.
"Dear Diary, today I died.
I was killed by this thing^ in some basement.
I leave all that I own to my cat Guppy."
First thing I thought about
What happens if they send the cat in to finish him off? Split the inheritance?
the plot thickens
Jokes on them, the cats already get everything.
This is more or less the plot of the aristocats. Are you Madame?
🎶Gordon, Waffle, and Mr. Blick; when the old lady died, she left them rich! A mansion, car, and tons of cash!🎶
Shotty on the cat
Jokes on you the cat already has everything
The cat's probably behind your coma in the first place.
Who do you think incapacitated him?
[deleted]
As long as you have it spaced just enough so that "do not show me on national television" is on another page that may or may not get lost.
Ok Kenny.
Oops...
It's okay, he'll make out back up to play heaven versus hell
But sir, this isn’t national television. This is INTERnational television.
Don't forget regional. He might be in a big market
Mine says "DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES HAVE A VINYL CAR STICKER THAT SAYS 'RIP CONTAGIOUS CASS' " I will come back and HAUNT anyone who does it!!
Facebook posts with all of your personally identifiable information it is!
Ok Kenny
You're just asking for a Netflix documentary.
I don't want a funeral. I just want to be chucked into the woods. Still trying to figure out how to legally do that.
Also, my hospice plan is whiskey and pain pills.
Look into green cemeteries. They're few and far between, but becoming more popular.
My line was " wrap me in bulap amd dump me in the woods". Green cemeteries kinda do that
My Dad told us to have him cremated, then spread his ashes in the untouched forest surrounding our home. My Mom, hearing this, smacked his leg and declared that he would actually be buried beside her in a double plot in one of the nicer cemeteries in town.
No shit, my Dad looked to my brother and me and said "Don't waste the money. I'm dead. Mix me with some gunpowder, load me into some shells, and go squirrel hunting. That's what I want."
What makes this extra hilarious to me is that he isn't very good at hunting squirrels. He enjoys it, but he never comes back with many on his belt, if any. I think he just wants the cathartic experience of ghost riding the bullets as they rip through the bushy-tailed rodents that eluded him in life.
Out-fuckin-standing. Your dad is awesome.
ghost riding a bullet does sound pretty cool
Ghost riding a bullet new band name CALLED IT
He'll be steering this time - the furry bastards have no chance.
Your dads feelings towards squirrel hunting kind of reflect mine on fishing - if I catch a fish, it's a bonus, the real activity is just going outside
Oh man I wanna have my miniature dachshund cremated and do that. She's killed one squirrel in her life and it's all she cares about. https://imgur.com/DaUkHoc
Edit: her watching her enemy
My dad said he wants to be cremated then have his ashes pressed into a diamond, and he wants it to be a family heirloom.. he’s pretty creative/odd with his ideas..
I am 100% ethically opposed to killing squirrels, but A+ for creativity!! 'Ghost riding' got me 😂
My dad loved gemstones and he wanted to make Lifegems out of his ashes (there's a company that makes diamonds, etc.) for us, his daughters, and his wife.
But he was a Vietnam vet and he was destined to reside in Arlington. Apparently they have a rule that not one tiny fraction of the ashes can be missing or they won't accept them. Even though apparently the gemstone process only uses a small amount, my stepmom didn't want to take the chance.
What do they do, weigh them?
I have no idea :(
My father in law passed away without any plans as to what to do with his body. We had him cremated and then we each spread his ashes in a place where he loved to speed race with his brother. He had a good reputation there and many people knew him were there anyway so that's what we did.
My dad wants to be cremated and dumped into our ditch. Yours is much nicer.
My husband has something similar. I have to have him cremated, then mix the ashes in burley and everyone is to go fishing in his favourite child hood fishing spot. I on the other hand am like " stick me in a pine box and bury me under a fruit tree"
That way very eloquent
I wonder what it would take for the funeral home to make that happen.
I mean, like, if he goes in himself and says "When I die I want you to take me out of the casket, cremate me, and give me to my kids while pretending my body's still in the casket and burying it where my wife wants me to be buried," how well would that work?
I mean, if nothing else, they could put his head and hands in the coffin while dressing up a mannequin to disguise the lack of the rest of him, and cremate everything else so that he gets the squirrel hunt . . . but then I am not a mortician, probably for some very good reasons.
Well, I think my Dad would say something like "Nah, make the will and just be sure to die right. Like, alright, you're 62 on a tight country road. You're at an overtake and you've got a 16 wheeler turnin on you with a mini van comin you're direction. No way out. If you want to get cremated, you shove the semi. You're fucked, the trucker should be alright, and the family in the van will drive right past the crash. You're mangled, so no point in a casket, and cremation is real cheap."
The last part was so poetic.
That's awesome! I've always said I would like to be cremated, and then placed on top of an explosive charge and detonated... I hope my family sticks to it!
Odd, my dad said something similar, he wants to be cremated, put into a confetti cannon, and shot at the guests at his funeral
That last sentence is fucking poetry!
Your dad will come back as a ghost that torments squirrels. That's why you see squirrels chattering to nothing and acting crazy. A ghost is teasing them.
My Dad told us to have him cremated, then spread his ashes in the untouched forest surrounding our home. My Mom, hearing this, smacked his leg and declared that he would actually be buried beside her in a double plot in one of the nicer cemeteries in town.
My great-grandfather asked to be cremated and have a little tree planted on top of him, so something nice could grow. Perhaps they could do that in the cemetary.
There was a climber that wanted to be cremated and then the remains to be mixed with chalk powder and be used to other climbers, so his remains will be over the rocks.
My dad wanted to be left in the woods somewhere (he had a brain tumour, and had a few months to plan what he wanted)... apparently illegal, so he decided the next best option was to be buried in a biodegradable coffin in a green cemetery near to where we live. It's nice there - peaceful, with wildflowers, some trees, and no gravestones.
Or they claim to and then sell your cadaver in the marketplace.
Leave me where I fall.
*massive heart attack at chucky cheese.
"Well, this is a binding will, sorry." -Attorney to CC owner
You can also donate your body to a forensic body farm for Forensic Science students to study decomp! Also kinda similar
There is always chemical cremation
If you want to be super green about your death be a cadaver?
thats a muslim burial basically and in many states its illegal and it should be, its actually NOT good for the earth and the aquifers around
Good news: you can donate your body to the body farm, to be chucked in the woods for science.
There are six body farms now. You can donate to the one nearest you to keep transportation costs down.
Just put me in a bin bag and throw me out with the bins
just put me in the trashhh
What is this? Snake meat?
I know in England you can be buried beneath a newly planted tree as part of the plans to regrow our woodlands. Because it’s a grave, by law the tree can’t be uprooted. We did it for my uncle who was a big fan of nature, it’s kinda cool knowing that he’d be happy with the fact that he’s going to keep that place green.
Green cemetaties and natural burials are becoming more common. Some states also allow burial on private property if you have a certain amount of land.
Lol, "allow". How are they going to know?
The government does like to keep tabs on bodies once they're aware a person is dead. It'd be opening up a huge can of worms, so to speak, to try to enact property transfer or for heirs to do taxes while keeping the death a secret.
I guess. I was never fully in charge of that with my dad. I figured after the death certificate and all it would be a more family/religious thing
Since dead bodies are actually pretty dangerous to keep around the living I'm sure they want to keep tabs on them all
They aren't that dangerous, actually. Most of the harmful microbes die pretty quickly once the host organism dies off, and you're less likely to catch a disease from a corpse than you are from a living person infected with it.
That said, we have rules about where we can bury people because there are risks to having corpse stuff leaking into your water supply. Embalming actually makes the problem worse: embalming fluid is a known carcinogen, and having that leak into the ground is worse than if you had just left a body out in the sun to rot.
There are also other considerations, such as underground infrastructure, or even selling your house in the future. Someone on a 10 acre ranch is less likely to run into underground structures or have trouble selling than someone in suburbia.
True, but if you dig into a powerline or a pipe or something, it will be pretty bad news for you.
Oh yea I guess where I was thinking of was out back on some acreage in northern California.
Donate your body to forensic science. They need bodies to toss out in the woods to train officers and medical personnel about the different stages of decay. Helps i.d. the time of death. Check out the Forensic Anthropology Center at University of Tennessee. Link ---> http://fac.utk.edu/body-donation/
I want a Viking funeral - like straight up canoe of straw and burn me in a lake.
Donate your body to science, the ones who study body decomposition
Look into body donations. There are a few "body farms" around where they place donated bodies in the woods to study what happens.
My hospice is smoking weed till my eyes bleed
The body farm in Tennessee will take you, they use the info they gather to solve crimes, that’s where I’m going when I die
Funerals are often times less about the person and more about the grieving process for those you left behind.
I might recommend talking to your kin about this before making any final decisions on it, because they might really appreciate it.
You're not far off on that idea. There's a way to basically tie your corpus delecti up in the root ball of a tree. Your former self nourishes the tree as you do the dust to dust thing. I have almost decided to specify this in my will, because I really like the idea.
Should make that whiskey and barbiturates. Guaranteed death instead of waking up and having malfunctioning kidneys.
There's a service where you can be cremated and put into a special tree bucket thing and planted.
I want to be cremated and my ashes used to make an igual reef http://www.eternalreefs.com
I know a lot of people who say this, but keep in mind that the funeral isn't actually for you. It's for everyone you leave behind, since it can help them grieve. Denying them that seems kind of selfish, but you do have that right.
Let it be known now that if I die, I want a Viking funeral. I don’t care if it’s illegal, send me off in a burning boat.
I had major orthopedic surgery at age 68 so I had to fill in a hospice plan if I threw a clot. Mine was oxys and Johnny Walker if that failed Dialauded and 151 Rum and my pistol. I was going out on my terms.
As other people have said, there are ways to do this that don't involve literally chucking your body in a random forest!
Look into green/natural burials or donating your body to science! There are places called body farms that study decomposition and things like that using donated bodies.
You can donate your body to a Body Farm. It’s where they study how long it takes for a body to decompose in order to solve murders.
You could donate yourself to the Body Farm. They'll chuck you in the woods and observe you decay!
Reduce littering, just throw me in the trash when I die.
Roberta???
Legal in Texas to just be put in a hole in who ever backyard as long as you buy the permit
Is there a legal way to donate my skeleton to a haunted house?
Ty I have to update my will. I put weed but whisky and pain pills sounds better.
Have your body donated to "the body farm"
You'll get chucked into the woods but for science! And you could help solve murders by doing so.
Look into natural burial and natural cemeteries. Remember that "green" is not always natural ( "green" embalming is a thing).
A natural burial has no embalming and in most cases does not require a casket. All natural cemeteries require a shroud of natural fiber and some even allow direct earth burial. Some allow natural wood caskets. Your grave can be marked with native stones and plants.
Donate your body to university body farms. They let bodies decay in different outdoor settings to teach forensic techniques to solve crime. Chunked in the woods for education and science!
I want a Viking funeral, cast off in a boat on a burning pyre
You can donate your body to science!
The University of Tennessee has an outdoor field laboratory for forensic science, and part of that involves staging donated human corpses outside in various conditions in order to study things like postmortem decomposition. Basically, it's chucking you out in the woods, but also legal, safe (won't contaminate anything) and useful!
I want my remains scattered around Times Square. I don't want to be cremated.
There are research facilities where they document human decomposition, donate your body to one of them. Here's a Wiki about them.
My husband says this too but I know he would want to be somewhere under a nice shady tree. My plan is to have him somewhere, whether buried or cremated, under a big ass shady tree with a bench under it so I can sit with him. He likes to sit outside and listen to the wind and trees
Are you aware of the body farms they study decomposition at? It's donating your body to science, but they chuck you into the woods more or less.
Look into body farms. They help forensic investigators learn how a body decomposes in different circumstances and you'd technically be in the woods while also potentially helping solve crimes.
You can donate your body to the forensic group that study how the body decomposes!
Don‘t know how common it is in the US or wherever you‘re from, but in Germany we have plenty of „resting forests“ or „forest sanctuaries“ or whatever it translates to - where you can bury a naturally decomposing bio urn underneath a tree. There are usually multiple options for this - community burial (one spot under a tree shared with other people‘s urns) or you flat out buy a tree and get 6-12 spots you can use for your whole family if you want. Last year I had to bury my father and did exactly that. The last thing he would have wanted was a funeral with a church or chapel ceremony on some religious cemetery, he was a fierce atheist. So I looked up forests offering unreligious and tasteful options. Bought a whole tree while I was a it, so if I die unexpectedly, my future spot is taken care of as well. It is really beautiful, for what it‘s worth. I buried him in October, but now that spring is coming, the sunlight reaching through the trees is wonderful.
Look into the forensic body farms that allow you to request a "sky burial". Help science AND get chucked into the woods!
My parents pre-paid their cremations and when they passed, we called the mortuary, they picked them up and per their wishes scattered them in a nearby state park.
if you want your body laying around in the woods, there is an FBI body farm in TN where they will lay you out in the woods or prairies and log how you decompose. Not my style, but if you really wanna be chunked in the woods, call the FBI.
You can donate your body to science with the proviso that they put you into the body farms which is literally what you described above. They will study you as you decay and see what animals/insects eat you. That way when they come across a decayed body crime scene they can work out a rough date of death.
Not in my woods pal.
You know, there's a company that will actually bake your ashes into a concrete pillar and dump it in the ocean so that your remains become a new barrier reef. You'd be helping to propagate countless generations of sealife and keep the oceans alive. It's a little expensive, about a couple grand or so, but totally doable with a payment plan.
I want my remains spread all over Disneyland.
Oh, and I don't want to be cremated.
"My hospice plan is whiskey and pain pills"
Waiting for hospice for that? That was a Tuesday afternoon for me.
I'm thinking a lawn chair with helium ballons. Float away. Bonus points if my kids can score be some LSD and a few blunts for the ride.
[deleted]
I don’t think we should be providing suicide methods on the internet...
"What does this say?"
"The man who kills me will know"
My will says that when I die my family has to take my spine and hips and make a battle axe to hang in the house.
My will is just a D&D campaign where my belongings at the time of death will be plugged in as loot by the lawyer who will act as DM.
Just wondering, is it possible to write such a contract? I don't want it to be unenforceable either. I mean it actually requires them to kill me, no pansy-ass unplugging me from a respirator and looking away as the heart monitor stops beeping.
No
Nope, in fact unless you're brain dead its not just unplugging you. Your family has to make the decision to withhold food and water until you die. This also eliminates many possible organ donations.
Source: I had to have this conversation and decision last year.
That's despicable. I'd rather they just sever my brainstem and get it over with, at least then some dying alcoholic can get my liver.
Yep, unfortunately that's murder. Also, everything else you might think of is also murder. Waiting and doing nothing, perfectly legal, just following directions. The person laying in a permanent coma with unknown awareness is drugged for around a week while you wait.
In case you can't tell, not a fan of the procedure, but I had lots of time to read up on it while sitting around.
It would be null
Hi Ron Swanson!
Okay Worf.
What if a bear you love kills you with one hand? I hope this will is clearly stated.
I would put that in my will, but I want them to get the life insurance. I'll just put that the doctor has to do it. So that my loved ones can also sue for malpractice. Double win
Tell half of them that you would never want to live that way, and tell the other half to do whatever it takes to keep you alive. Let them fight it out when the time comes.
Bear hands, you say?
https://gfycat.com/GenerousPeacefulBluemorphobutterfly
Make it better say that the one who kills you will take all the inheritance. Turn your deathbed into a family gladiator ring.
Oooo I like this one.
Hopefully you will live a long healthy life and you won't burden your family with that wish. When I mom was dying from multiple types of brain cancer she asked me to smother her with a pillow if she lost her mind. Well the last couple of weeks of her life were pretty bad and her mind was gone but I still couldn't kill her.
I’m sorry to hear that about your mom, and I apologize that my joke was insensitive.
That sounds like a very difficult situation.
It's not a problem, it was a weird position to be put into when you are in your 20's but losing a parent isn't ever easy. I get the humor, I was just hoping you weren't being serious.
With a finishing move of course
This is such a relief! My taxidermy bear hands and cat paws business will finally have a small profit margin!
Not like a mallet or something?
Fuck you dad, this is for missing my baseball games Stabs like 17 times
Hypothetically, if you're serious, would there be any legal complications to this? As on, would your loved ones get arrested or anything for murder even if its in a will?
Hey it's me; a loved one.
Mine states that if I am ever unresponsive/sedated in the ICU One by Metallica is to be played at every shift change. Just seems very fitting.
Amateur hour. I want cooked and eaten by those who want a dime.
Alright Dwight Schrute
I believe they call that technique "The Warm Embrace of Death"
unacceptable. I want death by snu snu
Force whomever wants all your assets to challenge you to mortal combat.
Should have put they have to kill you with bear hands, this tiny spelling error could have hilarious effects.
Mine says they should kill me with my own bare hands.
Mine are supposed to make it a public spectacle when they end me with a banner that says "The King is dead"
unless the cats do it first
A sociopaths dream.
I tried to get ‘If I ever have the intellectual capacity of a potato, I desire to be planted like one’ in mine. Killjoy lawyers...
Dwight?
I've specified a "pillow brigade" with assigned places and swaps enabled so the unluckiest has to smother me.
Is this legal?
But how do you stop them from killing you with their bare hands before that?
Going to steal this and replace it with "bear hands."
I will also have this be my way out 😂
You should change it to "Bear Hands" and make them claw you to death.
What about bear hands?
And your family says, "Gladly"
Mine's pretty close... my living relatives have to kill me bear hands.
Change it to a sword so you can go to Valhalla.
I love this idea. "First to slay father receive the spoils"
Ideally, while playing "My Own Bare Hands" by Ween.
For one, you spell bear wrong. Your welcome.
Number 2, can you really do this??
My living will says that if I'm ever incapacitated without a chance to recover, that my loved ones have to kill me with their own bare hands.
I volunteer ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
My living will says the same but without the incapacitated part.
If im ever incapacitated with no chance to recover, all my worldly posessions will go to the least pretty of my step sisters. They can figure out which one that is themselves.
Turns out Dwight Schute's usarname is readyjack.
After reading the thread about Prince's fentanyl OD yesterday, I'm thinking that's the humane way to check out. Can I put this in my will??
Yeah... I totally read that as
“My living will says that if I'm ever decapitated without a chance to recover, that my loved ones have to kill me with their own bare hands.”
Seriously, make it easier for your family if something happens.
Or just be poor as fuck so they don't have to worry about that part.
This doesn't work. Living wills are also for if you become injured and incapacitated in an accident. THEY TELL YOUR FAMILY WHAT YOU WOULD WANT. Don't want to be kept alive with uncomfortable tubes if the docs say your brain is compromised? Write it in your living will. Want everything done and a priest every week to come in and pray over you? Write it in your living will! Want to be an organ and tissue donor if you die? Write it down!
Edit: I have a living will and I'm in my early 20's. This is not just for old people, this is for everyone!
So how do you go about making one?
Great question! If you're in the US, it varies slightly state by state. You can google your state and living will and see what you need. Typically, you will need to write your wishes in situations you care about, and have several witnesses sign the sheet. Then you need to file a copy with your physician and family members who would be next of kin! A very basic one often used is called 5 Wishes, and is accepted in 42 states (the remaining states require another piece of paperwork).
Here is another guide: https://www.wikihow.com/Write-a-Living-Will
I appreciate the reply. I'll look into later today.
I think a lot of people are indifferent to the situations you listed though.
If they saw these situations and the pain they cause for families trying to make the right choices for their loved ones, I don't think most people would be. There's a fine difference between prolonging death and extending life, and that line is different for a lot of people depending on their personal beliefs, religions, and cultures. Forcing a family member or close friend to make that distinction for you is rough without any guidance. There are a lot of things that can be specified in a living will. Don't want to live if you won't ever be able to eat again? You can write that in. Don't want CPR if your lifespan is estimated at less than six months (and your ribs won't have enough time to heal)? You can say that. Most people would like to die at home, but without making this clear, they will likely die in a hospital. A living will is a chance to make your wishes known both for you and for peace of mind in those who are in change of you when you're not around.
That's reasonable, though I think close enough family members generally know what their relatives would want.
Many people may also very well not have any family to care. I probably won't by the time I get anywhere near the issue.
That's reasonable, though I think close enough family members generally know what their relatives would want.
Unfortunately, this is a common belief, but there are many studies that show this is not the case.
Heck, there is even a person in this very thread who mentioned how horrible it was taking care of their family member who didn't have a living will compared to one who did.
EMS is specifically warned in training about situations where family disagrees on what to do. Some times violently
Sounds strange, but hopefully you wont by that time.
But you might not, thats also kindof the point of a living will. When its an older person getting closer and closer to death, its more likely that their children/whoever will deal with it will know what they want.
When you're perfectly healthy and die of an accident at a young age, the people left to take care of you probably havn't had the conversations, and taken the time to figure out what you might want.
Just incase something does happen, it can greatly reduce the pain felt by those that care for you.
Im indifferent about many of these deaths door situations, but ive gone ahead and made the choice. Just in case something awful happens, it at least saves someone from stressing over what i care for, if I even did at all.
You would think this, but it's not how it works out. Plus, even if everyone could accurately tell you what your plan is for yourself, when you're actually in that hospital, it's a lot harder to make tough calls because of the weight of that responsibility. Further, if even one person close enough in the family tree to matter decides to make it their own personal crusade to do things a certain way, all hell breaks loose.
It's just not as easy as you would think when the moment comes, even if you've sat around 100x and bullshitted about "Don't let me be a vegetable, just let me go."
Or if you wanna be funny, use your living will to make it much more difficult for your family by hiding your vast fortune at the end of a scavenger hunt.
And don't actually have any fortune for them to find. Just have a note that says "the real treasure was the friends you made along the way"
Different kind of will. That's just a regular will, this is about medical decisions.
Ah rats. Lets change it then to a scavenger hunt that eventually requires them to pull the plug on you then.
I like you
Thank you, I like me too!
Lol. "Just throw this circuit breaker now that you disabled the backup generator. Be careful and don't leave it off too long or you'll clear the whole floor though."
Seriously, make it easier for your family ~~if~~ when something happens.
FTFY, it's inevitable.
Have you met my family? I do not trust them to follow my wishes. I'd sooner give power of attorney to a stranger with questionable but somewhat "normal" moral standards.
Honest question: At what age/milestone is it appropriate to draft a will?
Edit: turns out a living will is different from a will. (Not sure how I made it to my 20s without knowing this) Seems like a living will is a good thing to have as soon as you're an adult. A will depends on your unique family and financial/asset situation.
Anytime, I drafted and set mine at 22 when I left my home country to go traveling. I made sure everything goes to my parents in the event something happens. You can do it for under $50 or $100 on your own, it's pretty easy. Honestly having one is always the best policy because you're not immune to death no matter what age you are.
Edit: Accidental quoting
Without knowing where you live, it's likely that your place of domicile's intestate laws would already leave everything you own to your parents. That's the exact reason why I haven't bothered with a will yet.
Don’t always assume cause governments can take large cuts out of it or hold it for an indefinite time period. Always make it clear, that way there’s no room to get screwed.
I'm not assuming. I'm an attorney who is very familiar with these things. And in the US, the government is going to be taking their cut whether you have a will or not.
And in states with no estate tax, if you’re the sort of person that is worried about estate tax issues, then you’re probably not the sort of person that will ask for estate planning advice on Reddit since your estate better be worth at least $5,000,000.
I love that people that are constantly worried about estate/inheritance taxes are usually the least likely to be affected.
And those who will be inheriting more than $5,000,000 have usually already prepared for taxes by setting up a trust or something else to avoid them.
Exactly.
I love that people that are constantly worried about estate/inheritance taxes are usually the least likely to be affected.
Well, 99% of people aren't going to be impacted by estate tax. So that means, statistically, if everyone was equally concerned about estate tax, those who aren't impacted would be the largest in number.
True, I know in aus it can be a little different. Figure it’s easy to just make sure it’s there.
Yea, the US has to tax everything. Oh you won money gambling? We need our share. You made money in the stock market? Give us a cut. Your mom left you some money? Don't forget about us. You won some prizes on a game show? Too bad you'll be forced to sell it just to pay the tax on it. That being said, our overall tax rate is still pretty low comparatively.
God, this is so fucking annoying. Remember when the Paul Ryan gang drafted the AHCA, and there were several pages of the very short document dedicated to making sure lottery winners were removed from government healthcare ASAP?
I ran into this when I was 22. I got the only inheritance i've ever had from a relative, and when I went to file my basic poor person taxes, it turned out, in addition to paying regular tax on the inheritance, I had to pay an extra $400 due to a provision called "Children With Unearned Income," for which the cutoff age was 23, I believe.
At what age are you never again considered a child in this fucking country? 18 to do some things, 21 for others, 23 for tax purposes, 25 for renting cars or hotel rooms, 26 for Obamacare. It's insanity.
You got me all fired up with you. This drives me insane too.
Isn’t it 24 for college/student aid?
But don’t worry you can get married at 15 in some states so it’s cool.
You ever filled out a FAFSA? Same bullshit. To apply for student loans/aid you have to report your parents income until you are 23. They even gave me a "suggested family contribution" paper that said my parents should contribute 18k a year (I think it was 18, it's been 12 years). My asshole parents refused to pay for tuition/housing/expenses AND screwed me out of grants (they made too much money).
Oh yeah. Ended up stuck with private loans. Same situation.
PLUS, no matter how old you are, things like FERPA privacy rights don't apply if your parents claim you as a dependent for taxes. I've met university employees who didn't even know about that exception.
Honestly, I'm surprised that you were surprised that you had to pay taxes on inheritance.
How much did mom leave you? I've never died or collected inheritance, but there's a healthy exemption on the first 5 mil (ish) you get from anyone.
My mom is still alive
You should give her a call, she probably misses you.
I'm actually going to see her tomorrow. I talk to her at least once a week, usually twice.
I'm glad. I do hope you need to deal with this someday, as the alternative is she buries you, and I cannot imagine anything worse as a parent. I hope it is far in the future for both of you.
Depends on the state. Some states have their own inheritance/estate tax and some have an exemption under 1mil.
Federal US law exempts the first 5.3 million Trump administration has now raised that, i believe?
Right, but some states have their own separate tax and it can kick in well be low the federal exemption. Luckily, state estate tax is usually significantly lower than federal. It's also the reason many rich senior citizens move to Florida.
Yeah that’s one thing ive noticed. I believe in taxes but when I see (or don’t see for that matter) how they are spent it makes me want to not pay them.
here's where a bunch of it goes (federal)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_of_the_United_States_Navy
Yeah I know the military gets a lot, but the thing I love is that they rarely have audits and the last audit found a lot of missing money... but you know, that’s cool, wasn’t a big deal in the media. They just let that tiny little blip slip by unnoticed.
be forced to sell it just to pay the ta
Too many Taxes. Income is taxed. Then money we get not taxed, we have to buy shit, that is also subject to being sales taxed, and then annual property taxes just for living. Madness
If I had to go to the DMV to pay taxes to renew my car registration and to get there I bought gas for my car, and paid taxes on the gas, did I just get taxed to go pay taxes? Or what if I mail a check to pay a tax and have to use a stamp?
I'm half kidding but even paying taxes costs money which contributes to taxes lol
I dont understand inheritance tax. The person leaving you the money already paid taxes on it through income/gambling/investment interest.
Well, when a customer buys a sandwich from your sandwich shop and pays you $5 for it, they already paid taxes on it when they got the money, but that doesn't stop you from having to pay taxes for it with your income tax. Same principle. Everything is taxed continuously forever and ever.
Why does that make a difference?
Well if I had an income, and I wanted to buy you sandwich I would have paid taxes on my income and then taxes on the sandwich for you. If I died and left you the money to buy your own sandwich, I would have paid taxes on the income, you get taxed on the inheritance, and get you taxed on the sandwich.
Of course the government gets their cut. But the lawyers will get a bigger cut without a will.
As an unmarried child of parents who are still together and with no kids, there is nobody to contest my estate. It is as cut and dry as it could get. And as an attorney who knows tons of other attorneys, I have numerous friends who would help my parents out for free if I were to suddenly die. I appreciate your concern, but it is unnecessary.
I'm glad you are fine, but not everyone has attorney friends helping their folks out for free. And since you can draft a legal will yourself fee free, why make your parents have to ask or be offered help from your friends?
That said, I need to make a new will, as my last one did not reflect I now have grandkids, as I'd like to leave them something outright, in trust of course as minors.
Most of us have lives that change, and we need wills that change from time to time.
I'm not making my parents ask for help or be offered help. I just finished telling you there would be nobody to contest my estate, but in the extremely unlikely scenario that it happens, they would have free help. The reason that I haven't drafted a will for myself for free, is because it would be a waste of time since it is completely unnecessary.
Bother. So much easier and less paperwork if you have a will than if you die intestate. I worked as legal secretary for a decade, it always helps.
yes, but less of that money will actually make it to them
I can't speak to anywhere but where I live, but where I live, that is not true.
OP confused will with living will. Have you not done a living will either?
No, OP didn't confuse the two. Living will is how you want your medical treatment to be determined in the event you are incapacitated, which is not what OP was talking about.
3 above yours: "A living will and power of attorney"
2 above yours: "At what age...to draft a will"
1 above yours "Anytime..."
Yours: Everything probably goes to your parents...That's why I don't have one.
You subsequently identify yourself as an attorney.
The issue got confused, and I'd hate for people to get the idea that a living will isn't really necessary.
Fair enough. I was only responding directly to the one above me, which was discussing a standard will. But yes, a living will is something separate and important.
Which place did you use? Thinking of getting one but don't want to spend more than $100
legalzoom?
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If someone is young and unmarried, but has a decent amount of money they wish to be split between family members and someone they’re not blood related to is a will worth it? And if so is there a way to write a will for relatively cheap? My sister literally said she wants my money so I’m very interested in this lol.
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Thank you so much! I’m not familiar with legal stuff so this helps a lot. My concern with the intestate system is partially my parents giving the money to my older sister when other sister, parents, and someone else all deserve a fair cut too. It would come out to over $10k each right now so I’m thinking of doing it.
Plus a living will would be nice after working in a hospital and seeing people’s lives get dragged out in painful ways.
They need some sort of estate planning beyond intestacy laws, regardless of the amount of money otherwise the non-family member will be left out. Maybe not a will, but at least POD accounts designating certain people as the beneficiaries, but if you have more than 1 or 2 people you want to leave money to, this becomes a hassle. Basically, if you have non-relatives, or anything beyond the default rules, then you need a will. The simple fact they want it split between family and non-family shows that no intestacy law in the country will work. Which you said at the end of the first paragraph, but the answer is definitely not it depends.
As for the taxes, it depends on the assets and the state. In Florida for example, there will be no tax unless the estate is over $5,000,000 at which point, most people will have some sort of estate plan. It doesn't matter if you're unmarried and don't have children, that doesn't change the tax implications under 5,000,000.
The sister's wants along with /u/howdoyouspellyoddlin's wants are also irrelevant in intestacy. Intestacy only cares about the "default decedent's" wants. Did the decedent hate their parents? Too bad, if they're unmarried without children, the money is going to the parents regardless of how they felt in most jurisdictions. Parents are deceased and only have a sister? She gets it all.
If /u/howdoyouspellyoddlin wants to make sure the money goes where they intend it to go, they need some sort of estate planning, with a will being the simplest. I normally don't do just a will, but a will, health care surrogate, and a living will so my clients have everything covered, and that's usually around $750 but I'm definitely not the cheapest in town. While I don't recommend it, if you want to go with legal zoom or something similar, make sure you research the will execution formalities in your state and get them 100% right, that's usually the biggest issue with self-drafted wills. The worst estate planning lawyer is probably a better bet than legalzoom.
Thank you for going into detail! I’ve seen Legal Zoom thrown around here a few times now, but would much rather have this done with an actual lawyer even if it costs more. There is a law school in my city so it’s possible I could find someone willing to work with me for a relatively inexpensive price.
Law schools often have clinics, but many require you to be indigent. Regardless, there are plenty of inexpensive lawyers out there.
In the UK there is a scheme called will aid, there may be a similar thing where you are. Basically a solicitor will draw up your will as normal, but instead of charging you for it, you create a legacy in your will to a charity that participated. My father participates in will aid every November.
That’s really cool! I’m going to see if there’s something similar near me.
Also Cancer Research UK has a year round free Will scheme. There is no obligation to gift money to them when you die or when you make a Will.
I'm mid 20s and single. I own a car, but it's also in my mom's name since I didn't have much credit when I bought it. So I would assume that would go to her. As would all my financial accounts since she's my beneficiary. Otherwise, I have no major assets, just clothes and cheap furniture and crap. If you don't mind, what is risky about holographic wills? I've never even heard of them before today.
Some states, such as Florida don't recognize holographic wills, unless they were executed in a state which does recognize them. A holographic will from Florida is the same as having no estate plan, many other states are the same way.
In Florida for example, your will must be signed by you at the end (or by someone at your direction), then two witnesses must have seen you sign the will, and then they must sign the will and all three of you have to be together and watching each other sign. If one witness signs, then leaves to the bathroom, and the second witness signs, the will is invalid.
In Florida for example, a handwritten will that follows these formalities is not considered a holographic will and is valid. So a handwritten will is not necessarily a holographic will.
In Florida you'll also want a self-proving affidavit at the end, otherwise, to prove the will is valid at your death, the witnesses will need to testify to its validity and some times they're hard to find or dead or just don't remember attesting to it.
As for your car, depending on how its titled and where you live will determine what happens. Some states will transfer title automatically to a spouse at death. Some automatically assume joint title means joint title with right of survivorship (title passes to the other owner at death), some only assume this for spouses, and some need the title to specifically say "joint title with right of survivorship." No matter what, if your mom is your only parent living and you're single with no kids, if you die, the car will go to her through intestacy laws. If your dad is alive and they're married, it's not a big issue. If they're divorced, and your state doesn't think she had right of survivorship, your mom now owns 75% of the car and your dad owns 25%.
IANAL, but depending on what state you live in, handwriting and signing a will is valid without many of the legal formalities (eg, don’t need a lawyer, don’t need witnesses). It has to be handwritten though. Obviously, if you have a lot of assets or want to make a complicated scheme, having a lawyer is better. But if not, google “holographic will” and the name of your state, then see whether your state accepts them
EDIT: Listen to the lawyers below, not me.
I'm a lawyer practicing estates & trusts and this is not what I would recommend. Holographic wills—moreso than written attested wills—open the door to legal challenges later, especially if you're disinheriting someone who would have been expected to inherit via your state intestacy statute (which is how property is passed down when people die without a will).
The only time I've ever recommended someone write a holographic will is when their desired estate plan is extremely simple--e.g. they've had virtually no property to pass down or wanted to leave their limited property to one person.
Yeah I’ve heard even the most basic personal record. I believe you have to ensure it’s phrased in a particular way too. Also stating that it cannot be contested also ensured that people can’t fight over your shit in court.
Also stating that it cannot be contested also ensured that people can’t fight over your shit in court.
This doesn't work like you think it does. There's a hell of a lot of ways to contest a will, and very few of them would be stopped by such a clause.
I know it’s not as simple, but if you’ve got enough money where you don’t want it contested I know there’s ways to ensure clauses are put in place. But I’m saying that you’re dead at that point, there’s no stopping them. Someone will always find a loophole somewhere...
I'm an estates, trusts, and fiduciary litigation lawyer and this just isn't true that you can just put a clause in place to preclude all possible litigation.
I'm working on a case right now where the deceased placed a clause in her will explicitly disinheriting her siblings. Now we're about to begin a trial because the siblings brought a challenge claiming that the signature on the will was forged. This is despite the fact that two witnesses and a notary personally watched the deceased sign.
There will always be a way to challenge the validity of a will--what matters is how airtight the drafting is to prevent the challengers from winning at trial.
Exactly this! I try to explain to my clients that they cannot avoid a challenge, no matter what clauses/language are written into the will. If someone is going to hire counsel and challenge a will, there’s nothing they can do to stop that. It’s more about making the challenge as hard as possible and deterring any potential challengers.
However, at least in NC, the legislature recently passed a Living Probate statute where, if a challenge is highly likely, the testator has the ability to probate the will while they are alive and likely ensure that the will won’t be challenged later after they pass away. Although, as with anything in this area, it’s only so effective (whether it be cost prohibitions or stubborn family members/beneficiaries).
I'm a NC lawyer, too!
We are everywhere! Small world
Well, everywhere in NC at least.
Consult competent local legal advice before trying anything like this. There may be options - in my area, setting up an inter vivos trust can be a good way to bypass certain forms of possible challenge - but it will vary greatly between jurisdictions, and none are perfect.
That’s cool, what exactly does that mean? You put money in trusts in particular peoples names so that it can’t be touched? I’ve also heard that the money should be divided pre death if possible, that way it limits the ability to claim.
That's more or less the idea. "Inter vivos" is legalese for setting up the trust while you're still alive. Basically you set up the trust while you're still around, move your money to the trust, make yourself the beneficiary while you're alive, and then make others the beneficiaries after you die. In some(but not all!) jurisdictions, this is harder to challenge than a will. It comes with costs, because running a trust requires legal/accounting/etc. fees to be paid, but it can make sense for some people in some situations.
Awesome, keep this in mind if I ever have enough money for it to be worthwhile.
Don't. What you should actually keep in mind is that you should go find competent professionals who know your local laws, and ask them for advice. Some random on the Internet, who probably isn't even from the same country as you, cannot give you useful legal advice. Don't try to learn financial planning strategies from /r/askreddit.
Lol of course I would consult a legal professional. It’s not like you can draft and organize this stuff on your own. It’s more or less the idea to keep in mind to bring up when you consult with a lawyer.
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Which is why I'm bringing them up in the context of planning one's estate to avoid challenges to one's will, and not to avoid one's creditors, yes.
In my jurisdiction it can sometimes be possible to avoid creditors this way, but only if the trust was settled well prior to the creditors coming after you in court, and only if it had a valid, non-fraudulent purpose. If you set up a trust for your disabled child, and then go bankrupt after losing your job five years later, the trust is usually safe. If you dump all your money into a trust the day before you declare bankruptcy, the judge will administer a richly deserved boot-fucking straight to your doorstep.
I know it’s not as simple, but if you’ve got enough money where you don’t want it contested I know there’s ways to ensure clauses are put in place.
Depending where you are, it's not only not simple, but frankly impossible. A minority of states allow in terrorem clauses, and of those that do, most allow a challenge brought in good faith and with probably cause. Very few allow no challenges regardless of good faith or probable cause, and while I don't live in one of those states, I'd guarantee there's still a way to challenge it.
In many states "in terrorem" or no-contest clauses are simply void and the court will not recognize them but basically every will ever drafted will have one.
What the fuck is the point then? It sounds so stupid... also if they were upheld it would stop people from wasting time and money. Sounds like the most moronic thing ever in my opinion.
Because people like you believe it's real. I don't mean that as an insult, but I mean it in the sense that you might read the will, and think "damn, i can't do anything" and go on with your life.
One major reason many states won't uphold them is because the will may be fraudulent, or have been executed under undue influence or distress. Those wills are invalid, but if you can't challenge it, then what do you do?
That’s interesting didn’t think about the second para you wrote. Makes a lot of sense, but then shouldn’t there be more regulations surrounding the will itself instead of completely disregarding a statement like that. I mean for me it’s not my money to begin with, if I’m not included then I’m not so I’ll walk away. If my parents wanted to spend every dime, as long as they didn’t leave me with debt I say have at it and enjoy yourselves.
Because many wills are drafted or amended at old age, and many people take advantage of the elderly. Most will contests aren't because "mom didn't love me and didn't leave me money but I think I deserve it." It's because "My dad was widowed and his nurse convinced him to amend his will and leave her all his money even though he doesn't have the capacity to execute a will." A big one we won was a lady who was taken out of the country by her caretaker and not allowed to return until she executed a new will. The caretaker tried to get himself 8 figures. If we weren't allowed to contest it, our clients, which were her actual family, would have been left with nothing, while the caretaker that essentially kidnapped an elderly woman became a millionaire.
Damn, that’s super interesting and also people are really shitty...
It really is, people are shitty but it keeps me employed. I'm currently trying to protect an elderly woman with Alzheimer's, that won the lottery, from her caretaker. It sucks too, because the elderly woman thinks I'm the enemy since she can't remember she won the lottery and can't remember giving money to the caretaker.
Oh god, that sounds horrible... do these people have a history of screwing the people they’re caring for? Well at least she has someone like you looking after her.
Look into your job benefits. Some jobs provide free simple legal services like this in their benefits packages.
On that note, when I moved abroad six years ago is when I first took out a life insurance policy (in the country where I now live).
I was 23 at the time and some people thought it was kind of heavy, but I said look, I live here and my blood family lives on the other side of the ocean. If anything happens, this will pay to either get them here or get my body there.
Now it's to make sure my husband has a financial parachute. Kids too, once we have them.
Same thing with me, don’t want them to have to deal with the financial implications along with grieving my death. It’s both smart and conscientious.
Drafting your own will, in some places, is perfectly fine. But there are some tiny nuances in the law that you won’t have any idea about and could destroy your will.
Having an attorney draft a simple will is both cheap and well worth the money. Pay the extra $100-$200 and have an attorney do it.
cheap
$100-$200
We have very different ideas of what is considered cheap.
Important things, like wills, are not the place to pinch pennies.
And as far as legal advice goes, that IS cheap.
Is there a point if you don't have any assets? I always wondered that.
If you honestly don’t own anything, have zero savings, no benefits and have nothing to your name then most likely not. Always good having a power of attorney in case your sick, but really not much to be there. Though if you have a tonne of debt that is passed on I would find a way for that not to be given to your next of kin if that’s even possible...
Debt may transfer to a spouse, but not anyone else, is my understanding.
How do we do this?
You can do it yourself for free by following relatively simple steps--especially if you handwrite the document and keep the terms simple. If I recall correctly handwriting removes the need for a witness to sign as your handwriting is considered proof enough that you drafted it.
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(Aus) Through government forms that are available to the public then saw a justice of the peace and had it verified etc
I left my country to travel but own literally nothing save a few t-shirts, trousers, shoes and a mobile phone. Is there anything else a living will involves, like does it state my desire for how I should be dealt with when I die in a cool stunt?
Step one: Make sure all of your 'stuff' that can have a TOD (Transfer on Death) does. (Bank accounts, cars, real estate, stocks/investments, etc.)
EVEN IF YOU HAVE A WILL, sometimes even with a written will you have to go through court to get things transferred over. If they're TOD, the person who is listed as TOD just has to bring a death certificate and some ID.
Consider having an attorney draft your will. One you write on your own could potentially have your family wrangling in probate court for years.
But seriously, THE most important thing is having a TOD on all of your most valuable properties (those that are titled/deeded). It makes life SO much easier.
A TOD on your bank account and property gives the person zero authority or access to your account and stuff except in the event of death.
I do have beneficiaries on all my financial accounts, and my car is also in my mom's name since I bought it young. I don't own any real estate or any other major things, so that's why I haven't bothered with a will yet. Good to know the beneficiary designations will actually stand up even without a will.
I had my living will and contingent power of attorney drafted when I was about 26 or 27. Bear in mind that a living will is different than a will. My best friend is an attorney, and he gave me a good deal to draft them right after he passed the Bar Exam. He also explained the standard succession rules without a will in our state, and I'm fine with it so a will wasn't necessary.
Just having the contingent power of attorney or living will is great at any age. My father had a medical event some years ago and having the proper paper work in place would have made a very difficult situation just a little easier.
Oh dang, I didn't even realize the difference between a will and a living will. Thanks for pointing that out. I feel like that's something I definitely should have learned in my personal finance class or something.
In case anyone else didn't know, living will = a written statement detailing a person's desires regarding their medical treatment in circumstances in which they are no longer able to express informed consent, especially an advance directive.
Honestly, it’s never too early. I drafted mine at 18 when I was diagnosed with a seizure disorder so my parents wouldn’t have to make a decision if I had a major episode and ended up brain dead.
Generally, if you're young and single it's probably not necessary - every area has "intestacy" laws, which split up the estate of people who die without a will. Usually your stuff goes to immediate family, or distant family if you have none immediate, and the government if they can't find anyone related to you. It's good enough for most single people, especially if you don't have a lot of money. (A will is better, of course, but I can understand those who don't bother with it. I didn't.)
Marriage will cancel wills, most of the time, so getting one after you get married is probably wise. If you don't, then definitely get one after you have kids - stetting up trusts for them, choosing who'll take care of them, and so on is extremely important. Usually the one you get at marriage/parenthood is good for a while, but you'll probably want to re-write it when your kids reach adulthood. Then if you get widowed, probably another re-write, because a lot of it will be obsolete.
If you have big money, or special-needs kids, or anything else of the sort, consider doing it more often than this. For high-net-worth clients, we usually say they should review it every 5 years even if nothing happens. But for normal people, this isn't a bad schedule.
Already stated but anytime. I took a sociology course on Death and Dying last year in undergrad and I absolutely loved it. We were required to make a living will and write down our preferred funeral arrangements. I have since kept mine updated and told my parents, brother, and boyfriend where to find it on my computer in case I die in an accident for some reason (I drive long distances a lot, things can happen anytime), and encouraged my parents to update their wills too. It doesn't have to be a legal, notarized document. I have a word document on my desktop that will suffice if the time comes.
Edit: that's just for your living will, to settle your estate you should probably get a professional and notarized document done
Literally any time. My best friend's dad died suddenly when she was 19. It was a total fucking mess to sort all that out. So her mom made her and her sisters all go have a basic will and shit put together. I mean like your 5 year old probably doesn't need one, but as soon as you have any of your own money or property (like a car you own or apartment rented in your name) you should probably get a will. So I guess like 18 is really probably a good time. It's when you aren't legally under the guardianship of your parents any more. So they can't legally make medical decisions on your behalf at that point.
Like the other guy said, anytime. Although you might be better off with a revocable trust since this avoids all the time and money of the probate process.
Unless you have substantial assets before you have a wife and kids, you probably don't need one since it will all go to your parents.
If you want your money to go somewhere else, say to charity or a sibling, you should have a will.
It is never too early. You never know when you're going to die. You also should look into advanced directives regarding healthcare choices and what to do with your body after you have passed. You should definitely update that shit though as time progresses. All you need is the paperwork to fill out and a notary.
This website has some great information and helps you make one for free https://willing.com/
I'm in my 20s. TIL that a living will is different from a will.
I've had my pre-need done since my early 20s and have updated it regularly.
At any time, but at the very least you should have a living will/advance directive (even if you're healthy you could be in an accident on life support) and as soon as you have any assets or responsibilities (like kids) you should have a will
And life insurance. I am divorced and have a life insurance policy that effectively pays my daughters child support if I pass away.
When you get married and/or have a child.
If you are young with no significant assets that need to be left to people after you die, it's fine not to have a will. You should have a small life insurance policy that will cover your burial or cremation, but that can usually be obtained through your employer or it might even come with your checking or savings account at your bank.
When you become an adult at age 18.
Best time to do it is yesterday. Second best time is today. Problems that make you need this stuff are not gonna announce themselves ahead of time. And once you've lost the capacity to make your own decisions, it's up to whoever the law says gets to -- estranged or not, dysfunctional or not, your crazy-ass brother could be the one pulling the plug on you. Egads!
I drafted my first will when I was married, then re did it when we started to have children. I am 52 now and just redrafted a 3rd time and formed a trust for most of my valuable assets. Start now, even if you don't have much to say, my first will left it all to my wife and had instructions for my funeral handling ( donating body to science) and my DNR wishes. Your will is a living document, it should change as you go though life and accumulate things and gain or lose obligations.
I'm 28, I have one now. Depending on where you live, you don't need a lawyer, just a witness (ideally, not someone in the will). So if you don't own any significant assets, it's worth doing. For example, I want to leave everything to my chap, who I don't intend on marrying, so it is important that I have something in writing. I've also specified who should get whatever I own in several events, e.g. my chap is dead and we have no living children. In that case, I want everything split between my parents and my siblings, but I also specifically wanted to classify my best friend as a sibling for the purposes of inheritance in that eventuality. That helps prevent my assets ending up with cousins who I hardly know, in the unlikely event that all my close family die after me, when I could leave something to someone who's actually meaningful in my life.
It's never inappropriate to have a will, though not generally worth the money for a formal will if you have no assets and no dependents.
Make sure your will is properly up to date whenever there is:
a marriage
a divorce
a birth or a death in your immediate family (or of any other person who could be affected by the terms of your will)
any significant change in your assets
you have reason to believe your life may be at risk (health, deployment to combat zone, etc)
if you have them, when children come of age or the plan for their care/guardianship while they are minors has to change
Normally after you purchase a house, because that usually would put you over the probate threshold. For example, any houses worth more than $___ must be probated (which is an expensive and lengthy process).
Definitely should have a living trust, pour-over will (mainly to appoint guardians for young children), and associate documents like POA, healthcare directive, HIPAA waiver, etc. if you have underage children.
I was either 22 or 23, don't remember. I was moving across the country and figured if something happened to me I wanted everything to be taken care of so my family would have to worry about it.
As soon as you have enough possessions to be worth something, or if the default inheritance laws don't match your wishes (spouse first, children next, parents next, else relatives), or if you care how it is divided (including that divvying the loot can tear a family apart, sometimes even for small amounts). Usually, if you're asking you should probably already have written a will.
I'm in my 20s and have both. I'm an ICU nurse and highly recommend it. It saves so many headaches if you are in the hospital or if you pass.
Did them both as soon as I had more shit that anyone might want than I could fit in a single pickup truck load.
My husband and I drafted one after kids. It was important to us to write down who would get them if something happened to us.
I made one when I deployed.
Yeah, I agree with "once you're an adult."
A few weeks before my mom went into a vegetative state from a massive stroke, she told me and a nurse relative of mine that she wouldn't want to live or be resuscitated if she were a vegetable. It made ending life support far easier.
Not everyone has those poignant conversations, though.
I'm so sorry you had to go through that.
Probably because the reality of your death doesn’t really kick in until later?
Living wills are weird.
Definitely have a living trust when you become a home owner or have children
When you have something you would want someone to have after you die, like a house. You can look up the will requirements by state, but all you really need is a typed will, signed by you, with two witnesses to your signature. If you were in my state you would want to say you want $person to serve as independent executor and waive requirement of bond. Note the independent. If your state recognizes holographic wills (a minority now) you can write one out right now as long as it’s all by your hand and people can attest to that because they know what your handwriting looks like.
Living will is also called a medical power of attorney or advance directive, and your state probably has a form for this to make sure it’s accepted. There are like 3 other things: regular (financial) power of attorney, hipaa authorization, and declaration of guardianship that you would get if you went to an estate planning attorney.
My spouse and I are interested in writing a living will. Our son will be born next month and we’d like things to be secure if anything should happen to us. Any suggestions on the best way to go about this? Any online options or does it require a visit to an attorney?
attorney. The do it yourself things aren't as foolproof as you'd think.
There's a lot of language they add to wills and such that covers a whole host of situations and automatically go to next of kin if relatives specified in your will are dead too. You can arrange for money to be held in trust until your kids reach whatever age you want and do all sorts of other things. Especially important if you own property together.
My wife to be and I just did ours and it was a painless 30 minute conversation with our lawyer.
At the end of the day, you want this to be wrapped up as opposed to your family fighting with banks and shit.
Don't forget, you are creating a relationship with a local attorney who will be there for you in the future. If things do go south this person will be there locally to help your kid. It's not just the piece of paper.
It was my wife's boss so not only is everything free, he makes sure we get the best service and advice. Great guy
Win win.
Curve ball: he made the will convey everything to himself upon your death
So how do I go about finding a lawyer?
My wife and I are early 30s, have young kids, own a home, make decent money. Where would I start beside random Google searches?
Call the local Bar association. They will usually do recommendations.
Ask people at work.
Ask your friends who they like and use is a place to start. Try someone older you respect. Business people usually have had to use lawyers regularly.
In my area a lot of attorneys will offer a free phone consultation (usually 30 minutes or so) or will do consultations at a lower hourly rate. Ask your friends/coworkers if they have any recommendations, and call those people first. Other than that, google searches are good. Just find someone you trust and who is upfront with you. Most attorneys are honest and ethical, but there are a few who give the profession a bad name.
My recommendation would be go back to the attorney you used to purchase/sell your home. Usually, if you remind them you used them before or that you could be moving soon an attorney will be more willing to get you in. It’s a simple process that requires extreme care to detail. If you didn’t use an attorney for your real estate contract, I would check the back of your church bulletin or ask anyone you know in real estate for a recommendation. I’ve worked for a real estate attorney for a few years now and it’s just like any other business. If you come from an agent who recommends that attorney you will find it easier to get things done.
Unless they die too.
Most lawyers do not work alone. My cousin is dealing with a situation where is mom's lawyer retired, the younger partner took over and is helping cousin move mom into a nursing home because of her dementia. The lawyer has been a godsend in dealing with everything.
Lmao...people actually have "family lawyers"?
Are you Lara Croft? The tomb raider worth billions?
Nobody these days has the "family law firm" that delivers packages decades later per instructions of their fathers....unless you live in a manor 😂
Lawyers with vaults of goods and years worth of delivery schedules who monitor the obituaries daily and then show up at your doorstep with instructions based upon death
What are you going on about?
Lol umm...read it? Its self explanatory dude.
Seriously, nobody has best friend personal lawyers that are on call like that unless they're rich as fuck...
Nobody has lawyers that will keep your family documents for decades on end "until they're needed".
Like your documents are gonna be important enough to be passed down through the family law firms as each son takes over the business from their fathers....😂😂😂
Sorry, regular people don't have standing accounts that are simply "in the family name"
No, it really isn't. You brought up 'family lawyers.'
Okay, sorry, you aren't smart enough to comprehend any of this apparently
I’m curious you did this before you were officially married? I’m in a similar boat (getting married in December) and I’m wondering if I should hold off until then so I don’t have to do it twice
yeah, we're legally married this June but have co-owned a house and been common law for at least 2 years so your living situation might factor in, this may be different depending on where you live and their laws around that sort of thing too.
a lot of the language is written to account for future changes down the road so a surprising amount of situations are covered including if you have kids later on. The way it was explained to me, unless there's additional property being owned, a business started or we want to cut someone out of the will, we're more or less covered for it all.
e.g. Kids become power of attorney and such at a reasonable age for it, if not there's backups, etc.
My father did his will with an online service. Technically everything was legal but the language used was not what the local judges preferred. It caused some minor issues so I would recommend a local attorney.
30 minute conversation with our lawyer.
So only like $200?
200$ is well worth a well-written will or living will.
I know, I was just poking fun at the ridiculous rates lawyers have.
We got to feed our kids too man
Hey, just so you know, a living will has to do with your wishes about what medical professionals will do if you’re incapacitated and can’t make your own medical decisions.
A “last will and testament”, or “will,” has to do with your wishes for your personal property, and designation of a guardian should you die. I think this is what you want.
You can also do a designation of healthcare surrogate for one person to make medical decisions on your behalf. This may be part of the living will depending on your state.
And while we’re at it, most people don’t realize that living wills, healthcare surrogate, and Powers of Attorney expire on your death, so if you want a particular person handling your affairs after you die, appoint them executor of your estate in your will.
All of this can get convoluted, and that’s why it’s good to consult with an attorney in your state, who can listen to what you want and need, suggest the proper documents, and prepare them in compliance with the law so nothing falls apart when shit is already hitting the fan.
Here's some advice from a mortician that makes some very informative youtube videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swQHx6EvrXQ
Doesn't require an attorney but in a lot of states you need to get it notarized. That being said, an attorney could help you cover all of your bases
Attorney is best. If you work, check with your employers to see if your company's Employee Assistance Plan includes any subsidized legal consultation. People can oftentimes get some financial help that brings the cost of an actual consultation down to what you would be paying for a half-assed online document generator.
The first step to a will is always the same: first you buy a shovel, then you have to find a good place to hide the treasure
I'm not sure whether this distinction has been made elsewhere, but wills addressing property rights after you die are VERY different than living wills. You should have both, but the latter is essential for everyone, even those who die penniless.
Go to an attorney.
Look up the laws of intestate succession. In other words, even if you don’t have a will the default position is that everything goes to your surviving spouse and heirs.
Check out Nolo press, they do tons of do it yourself legal. This is one of them
Go see an attorney. No question.
I misread this and thought you wrote "our son will be burned next month"
Our hospital gave us an optional form as part of our intake package that had advanced directives. If they didn't send you one, ask if they have one. Also, if it's an option, have your intake forms filled out and on file ahead of time. It makes go-time way less stressful.
better call saul
You’ll probably want an actual will as well as a living will - the living will dictates your end of life care if you should be incapacitated, not how your possessions will be distributed after your death.
Talk with your wife in advance of meeting with the attorney. You'll be asked things like who you want to care for your child if you're both killed. It's best to have hashed those matters out before they're finalized.
Your state probably has free forms for this. Here are some from mine. Search for medical power of attorney or advance directive.
If your situation isn’t unusual you probably don’t need an attorney, but with transactional attorneys like here you pay more for peace of mind than anything else.
I definitley recommend legalzoom.com, it's very easy to use and will create a printable document for your Beneficiaries/ Estate helpers to sign. You can also get it notarized at your public library or courthouse. Here are a few reasons you should have a Will/ Living Will at all times;
There is no confusion about who gets what/ the determining factors (Age of your children, family circumstances, etc)
You have control over how much money is spent on the funeral. Cremation is $900+, a basic funeral is $40,000+. If significant funds were used for medical purposes at the end of your life would you really want your family taking on that funeral cost as well?
You NEVER know how family or friends will react regarding death. People seem to assume their friends and family will just know what they want and do it. During extremely stressful situations people can AND will turn on each other, check out mentally/emotionally, or completely disregard previous wishes. Be prepared for the worst and protect the ones you care about.
See an attorney. It will only costs about $1500 to get the whole set of documents.
"Only". That's more than half of my monthly salary.
It's worth it because of what the documents can do for you and your loved ones, especially if you have children.
If you and your SO suddenly die or become incapacitated (car accidents for example), do you know what will happen to your house? Your assets? Your children? Sure, everything can go through probate and the court can take care of it all, but how long does that take? And I can guarantee you it will cost more than $1500.
If you are kept alive artificially, do you want your loved ones to go through the distress of having to decide on what to do? Conversely, when you are no longer capable of making your own medical decisions, who can the doctors consult with?
I know why it's important. I'm pointing out that $1500 is prohibitively expensive for some people.
$1,500 is a bit on the high side for a simple package, especially depending on where you’re located. Search for your county bar association or call the clerk of your county and ask for a recommendation for an attorney who helps draft wills for those of limited means. Many local charities will draft wills for you for free, particularly it you are a veteran or disabled.
The alternative is to just have nothing when you die. Either give it all away or spend most of it.
Living wills are also for if you become injured and incapacitated in an accident. Don't want to be kept alive with uncomfortable tubes if the docs say your brain is compromised? Write it in your living will. Want everything done and a priest every week to come in and pray over you? Write it in your living will! Want to be an organ and tissue donor if you die? Write it down!
Edit: This goes for young people too. After spending some time caring for teenagers and young men and women in the neurology ICU, I made a living will, and I'm in my early 20's. To get an idea of what you need, check out this article: https://www.wikihow.com/Write-a-Living-Will Also, if you want to help people after you die, register to be an organ donor! There is no age limit, most major religions support it, and most of the issues people have with it are myths!
So here's a strange, morbid question: how does one determine the "most effective" use of their body after death? I'm an organ donor but if I also want to 'donate my body to science,' won't they need those too?
If you're an organ and tissue donor, the organ procurement agency will match your available organs to the best of their ability (which is actually pretty amazing). If you would like to donate other tissues or body parts, I recommend contacting your state's organ procurement company and asking what can be done in conjunction with their program, as there are likely many research programs that benefit from body parts that are not commonly reclaimed in the organ donor process, and your local program may be familiar with them.
Even if you're not a candidate for organ donation, medical schools are always searching for cadavers to train new doctors on. I've told my family repeatedly, if my organs can be used to save/improve someones' life, use them for that. If not, at least use my mistakes to help someone learn how to better take care of those who come after me. Sure, we've all heard the urban legends of students playing pranks with cadavers, but I'd far prefer that the next generation of doctors get to see what the insides of a real human looks like on a corpse first.
YES! I'm a medical student. While the mood in anatomy lab was not reverent 100% of the time, we always respected the cadavers and the fact that someone had donated their body for us to learn from. I will be a much better doctor because of the woman who was my cadaver, even if she won't be there to see it.
Sure, I fully expect that medical students trying to mentally learn how to cope with death will embrace some dark humor. I'd be pissed if they're taking my organs and hiding them in their roommates bed or something, but the vast majority of doctors I've ever talked to really respect their cadavers for the opportunity to learn through their deaths.
I'm also a medical student and am currently in anatomy lab (for this block, not like, right this second). We have tons of respect for the donors and it is an incredibly weird and uncomfortable feeling at first to know that you're working on a person, in a room full of people, all of whom are dead. It's kind of nerve wracking. I do think there's a kind of natural, instinctive threat response to being around dead bodies. Some ancient part of us knows that dead bodies=danger nearby, be it predators or disease or war. That's why people respond to zombie movies and horror films. You get over it more or less eventually, but it keeps hitting me that "omg, this was a person." I'm also kind of shit at anatomy, so sometimes I'll be looking at the body and thinking, "This person donated their body to me and I can't even figure out where the god damn arm muscles attach". Then I feel motivated to work harder because I wouldn't want my donor to be disappointed in me.
100% agreed
I like the humor behind training medical students with corpses.
"These patients are pre-killed, so don't worry about screwing too much up".
we've all heard the urban legends of students playing pranks with cadavers
They are not urban legends. Pranks sometimes happen. But if you are dead anyway, it’s a tiny risk to embrace, compared to the chance of all the good your body can do for science by having someone use it for learning.
Is there any way I can donate my body spefically to be used for pranks?
Hmm, /u/jess_the_beheader is telling us what to do with our body parts
At least Magnus Burnsides isn't our arm doctor...
I honestly could care less if a bunch of 20-something doctoral students crack a few jokes over my corpse. I'll be dead; It's not like they can hurt my feelings.
It's probably better for them anyway; the sooner they develop their coping mechanisms for death, the better.
Sure, we've all heard the urban legends of students playing pranks with cadavers
And hey, if they want to make hand puppets with my actual hands, or play catch with my skull, or eat my heart to gain my strength or whatever, who cares, I'm dead.
Wait, can I write into a will that they must do that? Hmm...
Thank you. I have epilepsy and want to leave my brain to science for study and now I know how to figure that out to get it done.
Ahhh gotcha. For this situation I actually have different advice. You should reach out to epilepsy research organizations and ask them to put you in contact with someone who could use your brain. This is a slightly more difficult process because you have a specific pathology someone could study, and it requires more leg work on your part, but it can be done!
Thanks :) I'm on it. I have an odd form if epilepsy where I have primary generalized seizures (whole brain) but I don't loose consiousness 99% of the time. So with that I would like to think my brain could be useful for science.
That does sound really interesting (although it's probably a pain in the neck for you). Good luck in your quest!
Thanks, I learned to laugh about it a long time ago(laugh or cry right) and just deal. Mine is not super life threatening or anything though, thank the gods. Going on 9 months seizure free though, my longest stretch ever :) it's been a long road.
Congrats! Nine months is awesome :)
Thanks
You can donate to both. There are different organizations that can answer that specifically for you, whether your body is donated as "whole" or donated in pieces, with live organs being about to use for living recipients. I work for a large med/surg company and we often have just pieces of cadaveric tissue for surgeons to learn with (like just a leg to perform a knee procedure on). So you could donate all of your organs to needing recipients and then the rest can be used for other learning purposes.
Most universities with a medical school will also have options for you as well. If that's something you want to happen to you - get registered and handled as soon as possible!
Plant into the earth to feed the life you fed on.
you mean cremation and scattering the ashes? burying a body without a secure coffin can be a biohazard risk
Isn't burying a body in a secure coffin also litter?
It's also illegal in most of the US :(
Just register for both. Most causes of death leave many of the organs unusable for transplant anyway, but even if some/all of them are taken, the remaining body will still be offered to "science".
Organ donation takes priority though, atleast in the UK.
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I'm so sorry. It's an awful thing to have to experience. I hope you're doing okay.
Don't need to have anything in your will about organ donation in most countries.
Including the US. It's worth noting that a Living Will and Last Will are different things! Living Wills are typically for your medical care if you aren't able to communicate your wishes. You can leave out the organ donation if you want, or specify that you do or don't want to be an organ donor. Last Wills are for your legal and property wishes after death. They can involve care of your body, but don't have to either.
Thank you for commenting this everywhere it needs to be. The amount of people here who don't understand there is a difference between a living will/POA and a regular will has me stunned.
It certainly explains a lot of what I see in the hospital, that’s for sure.
Any advice on how to get started on making a living will? I have never even spoken to an attorney in my life, so I've got no idea what to do.
The wikihow article I linked is a good start! Living wills rarely actually require a lawyer, although you may have to involve your doctor!
*facepalm*
How did I miss the blindingly obvious link? lol
Don't want to be kept alive with uncomfortable tubes if the docs say your brain is compromised?
Studies show that people in that position are generally happy. Even when people have "full mental capacity" but have something like locked in syndrome, they report that they're happy: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/8343552/People-with-locked-in-syndrome-are-happy-study-says.html
See, the source of most unhappiness is frustration, a dichotomy between your desires and your reality -- I want X but don't have it, or I have to do Y and and I don't want to. Well, when you're stuck in a position like that, your brain stops wanting so much and you're content.
Unless you're being shown Barney for 12 years and then you might be really unhappy. But that unhappiness provided the impetus for Martin Pistorius to break out of his version of locked-in syndrome, and he has a relatively great life -- he gave a TED talk and he married a wonderful woman.
tl;dr Point is although it sounds terrible you probably won't be near as unhappy as you think you'd be, if you're actually in that position.
Studies show that people in that position are generally happy. Even when people have "full mental capacity" but have something like locked in syndrome, they report that they're happy: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/8343552/People-with-locked-in-syndrome-are-happy-study-says.html
This is a very rare situation from a very rare type of brain injury. Most cases are not like this, and from my conversations with patients asking me to kill them, I don't think this is the norm for people with significant physical damage to their bodies. Please consider that the situation you brought up does not involve damage or pain to the body, and leaves people with their full mental capacity. That's not the case for people who need a living will.
for people with significant physical damage to their bodies
Pain drives us all to say such things. I've heard people begging to die, but if you get a chance to follow up with them later they obviously don't say that anymore.
Generally, either the body heals or you die. Either way, we shouldn't euthanize people who are in that terrible "I just got hurt" phase. If it's one of the rare edge cases we can make choices about that, but euthanization requests from someone whose body is just healing should be ignored. Literally, all of us say things like that when in those cases, but afterward we all say that we didn't really mean it.
Yes...That's why euthanasia is illegal. I feel like you don't get the idea of a living will. All of your examples are of people who are able to communicate their wishes, whether or not they are legal or appropriate. This is for situations where that won't be possible.
I'm just saying, maybe people shouldn't put in their living wills, "If I can't communicate and X happens, just pull the plug and let me die" because they probably won't want that if they get into that situation and can't communicate.
That sort of brain interface for a locked-in person is really uncommon -- most hospitals have nothing like it.
People with locked in syndrome can communicate at any hospital though. It's slow and takes work, but they would not need a power of attorney in this situation.
If I can't communicate and X happens, just pull the plug and let me die
Don't living wills usually apply for situations where you can't communicate and likely never will again? And you can specify like "if I show no signs of improvement in 30 days" or whatever else. Because if you don't fill them out you'll have your stressed out family arguing about "what he would have wanted" because they now have to decide for you?
If you want to be a vegetable for as long as medical science can keep you that way, power to you. If it's me, they should pull the plug and everyone can get on with their life. We don't have to agree, that's the whole point.
Fair enough. :)
There are huge limitations on that, and even if you don't own much you still have an estate to be settled.
But yes, it can be a good idea to move property to someone else because it gives the insurance companies less to take after you die. It's pretty typical for your health insurance to sue your estate after you die to cover medical expenses, mostly to get your life insurance money.
It's difficult to lose a family member and be sued by several insurance companies shortly after.
Haha, no problem there.
or never have anything of value. that'd work too
That’s a great plan...if you know exactly when and where you are going to die. Otherwise, have a will.
true but there are people who know when they're going to die. (old rich people). i'd like to know the statistics though but obviously if you have shit and you want to give that shit to certain parties. get a will.
Or never have any money in the first place. True life hack.
Except you don't know when you're going to die...
Also can I add to this a death plan. Which is not legal binding but does give your family the information they need for planning your funeral. I’m putting it separate from a will because it should be detailed.
Basics for what should be included:
Part 1: Next of Kin.
Information for the funeral home you’d like to use.
Contact information for a friend who’s willing to help if you live far away from your next of kin.
Your next of kin should also have a copy of your living will and advanced directive.
Also one or both of them should have the passwords to your social media accounts and the infromation for your utilities or any other accounts.
Part 2: The funeral.
This is where you specify what kind of funeral and wake you want, home, traditional, religious etc. Go nuts more or less it’s your funeral.
You should state weather you would like to be embalmed and any other body related things in this section.
Part 3:Burial
How and where would you like your body to go. There are a slowly increasing number of options here so look around.
If you’re being cremated or aquamate you can specify what happens with your ashes.
Part 4: Death contingency plan:
i copied Kramer's Seinfeld approach - only keep me alive if I can still eat but machines do the rest.
"then I can still go to the coffee shop with Jerry!"
TV gold
The two best lines from that episode...
Kramer: "Well, I gotta have a central nervous system."
And Elaine: "Yank it like (pops open soda can) you're starting a mower."
then he realizes the woman in the coma from the movie wakes up at the end
Jesus, how did I forget that exchange? I'm sitting here at my desk laughing like an idiot picturing it in my head.
Kramer: I didn't know it was possible to come out of a coma!
Jerry: I didn't know it was possible not to know that.
As a nurse, I can confirm it is absolute torture what we do to patients. Please, don't ever let yourself become a vegetable and rot away in a nursing home. Please, talk to your parents and family members about their wishes.
Nurse here too. I have also seen family members go against their families wishes despite having these.
Future lawyer here. Stop putting me out of a job!
Alternatively the will to live and an attorney of power.
I am 33, in good health and went to the hospital at the beginning of the month. It was life threatening and sudden. Pick someone you trust and explain your wishes. This is more important than most people realize.
That's not really ethical. That's just financial planning.
+1000.
If you're young and don't own much, you may not need a 'will' (although it's still a good idea), but you should at LEAST have a TOD (Transfer on Death) listed on all of your vehicles and real estate (anything with a deed / title) and your bank accounts. Possibly even two. If your spouse is your TOD, consider adding a second TOD. (Not to be morbid, but spouses tend to spend a lot of time together. So, if a fiery car accident is how you're gonna go, and you take your spouse with you, then your family is in probate court. Unless someone else is listed as a secondary TOD if your jurisdiction allows for that. In my case, my spouse is primary and my sister is secondary. Only if something happens to both of us, simultaneously, would my sister have access to that stuff.)
My mother was my grandfather’s power of attorney during his illness and after he passed. When they read his will, he left her $1 and the grandkids (that includes me) got all of his estate. Man that was awkward but hey thanks Grandpa for the lifelong last laugh.
You win. Working in finance, I can't tell you how much tragedy can be avoided or mitigated by these two simple things.
And if I can add one: Review and update these often, including beneficiary designations. I've seen scenarios where someone's ex-spouse will inherit life insurance proceeds because the policy owner never bothered to update the policy after they were remarried. It sure is uncomfortable for the new spouse.
Top advice
Mine will make things so much more unethical and uncomplicated.
I have a particular way I want to die and in involves circumnavigating the world and dying while trying see every country worth seeing.
Ill preface this is i have high disposition to Alzheimers and when I start to lose my mind in the early stage Im going to take my journey
Should any of my family or children try to put me in a home against my will. My entire estate gets donated to some awful organization: I have not figured that out yet. Nazi party of America, WBC, ect.
Thats my living Will.
What’s the best way to go about this?
“You can wake up from a coma?”
A 'legal' living will, power of attorney and a will - especially important if you have children. (My father had done his own will, and it wasn't fully legal I found out, after his death).
This is my tipsy soapbox. My friends are all young, so no one thinks about it. I worked in a trauma ICU, where I saw so many young people have tragic accidents, and no one in their family had talked to them about what to do in that situation. It made it so hard on their families, spouses, significant others.
My mom hounded me for quite a while after buying my first house to get a living will in order. Our family lawyer made it very clear that if something happens to me the shitshow that is left behind can be dealt with sans conflict.
I'm not sure where ethics play into this, but these are a good idea to have.
I’ve found the ethics lie in what has to be done because of these missing things. Imagine you have been diagnosed with a fatal disease. You are still well enough to drive and you get into an accident that leaves you comatosed. The hospital has to do everything to save you until you have reached your maximum level of recovery they can give you. Which is a waste if they are making you better to just die from your illness. However if you make proper arrangements, the hospital can treat you but not have to go through “heroic” steps to save you, if you so wish.
Mine states that if I'm permanently incapacitated or brain dead with no chance of a meaningful recovery to contact an organ donation coordinator, part me out with whatever is less that's usable, then cremate me. My wife has power of attorney if I'm incapacitated and one of my brothers if she too is incapacitated. She's selected me and her best friend because she doesn't trust her family to do what's in her best interest or in accordance with her wishes.
As a former funeral industry worker, I cannot fucking stress the importance of this enough.
Those who pass without such things leave their families with a huge fucking mess... one that has a great propensity to tear them apart.
Also, something that often gets left out.... PLEASE FUCKING ARRANGE CARE FOR YOUR PETS.
This is so important. I have watched families rip themselves apart trying to get what they feel is their fair share.
My FIL is old AF. I tell my wife to get him to make a will and she says she’s to too afraid to talk about death WTF!!!!
I left everything to the student loan company.
I can't stress enough how important this is. My dad has just died leaving me looking after my 83 year old mum who has much more severe dementia than we'd been led to believe (both dad and mum had been covering up how bad it was). Without a living will and power of attorney it would be really difficult to get care for her, pay her bills, organise her medical care and deal with the joint estate. Thankfully my dad had the sense to get all the paperwork done before he died. Thanks Dad.
What if you don’t have children? I guess I’ve kind of assumed that if I die everything goes to my wife, which is what I would make the will say anyways.
I'm caught up in this right now. My father passed away and no one can find his will, despite me being told countless times, everything was to be given to me. It's been 8 months, I rarely talk to his family. I don't care about money, I would just like the sentimental things, such as our pictures we took together. I'm sure I'm being bamboozled and it sucks.
So much this. And just as a LPT, read up for just 5 minutes on inheritance law.
Thing is, a will isn't morbid, it's just ensuring that no one in your family turns into a scumbag when you die. You may think they won't, but you have no idea what cousin will show up and start bullying your clueless family into giving them money.
To add to that: there's a whole list of documents you should probably have in order/easily accessible if you're in the process of planning for your death. List is here
For what? So It can tell people who gets my PlayStation?
I agree, and I encourage people to also look into trusts if it makes sense for their situation, as a trust can sometimes make more sense than a will, and your family as the benefit of not having to go through probate after it all.
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"Selfish" might be a bit harsh. Given that he was her primary caretaker at home he likely had emotional attachments and was in a really difficult mental state at the time. People are not rational during times of distress/grief, which goes show how important a living will is.
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The context does paint a clearer picture, so thank you for sharing that. It sounds like she went through an awful experience and I hope she didn't suffer too much.
If you don't mind me asking though, if it was evident that she herself did not want to be on life support, why didn't the hospital respect that? I feel like the son's power of attorney would only override if the patient's wishes are unknown, but that was clearly not the case here. Alternatively his siblings perhaps should have been more present in her life as their mother aged so they could have had more of a say in things.
Make sure you have a Medical AND General power of attorney
Could you please explain what "power of attorney means"?
"Upon my death, all of my belongings shall transfer to the man or animal that has killed me."
"What are these symbols?"
"The man who kills me will know."
Nice try Jimmy
I'm a nerd for bioethics and let me say this: mention what you want for end-of-life care. Do you want to be hooked to a ventilator? Do you want a DNR? Think of who might have to be given the choice whether to pull the plug. Who do you want it to be? What if you get brain damage, do you still want to be kept alive?
I work with patients who are no longer able to communicate their wishes. So many have no plans either legally documented or spoken prior to medical event. It is so tough to watch these families struggling with what to do. You'd be surprised too, that someone's 4th cousin twice removed shows up with their opinion on what choice to make. Adds to the drama/stress.
I also have been on the other side too. My SIL was on life support for 2 weeks while we tried to locate any type of document of her wishes. We we're lucky the decision to take off life support was clear based on her medical situation.
I have willpower and a living attorney. Does that count?
Healthcare Proxy
I have a filing case with tabs of my loved ones and their death wishes. In my moms case, it’s a copy of her most recent will (no one else in my family could handle doing that with her when she got sick), but I also have notes on what each family member wants. For instance, when my mom says something like “oh, I want this played at my funeral...” I add it to the list. In my moms case, I already have a burned CD marking the ones she wants and a hardcopy list. My sister wants to be cremated and does not want a funeral or any kind of farewell gathering. I want a wake, but no funeral, everything useable is to be donated, and I don’t want whatever is left to be sprinkled somewhere I love or to be put on a mantle. I’d be down to be planted as a tree so long as it doesn’t have fruit (I don’t want to accidentally traumatize anyone). When I moved in with my SO he was horrified to find what he calls my “death files.” It would’ve been harder to explain if I hadn’t needed the info on my mom at the time. Honestly, though my mom ended up pulling through, it made me realize what a good thing it is to have that stuff ready so that you aren’t scrambling during your time of grief.
A couple of years ago I called my dad to explain where my will and durable power of attorney is located, and what’s stipulated in it.
He responded with “wow, great job! I should really do that too!”
I was 28 at the time, he’s 63. And a lawyer. How has he not taken care of that yet?!
As much as this would help the probate courts, I do have a friend who makes his livelihood from litigating these things.
Hmm...
I lost my living will long ago
Asked my mum if she’s doing her power of attorney when she does her will. She said no. So that’s fun...
I have them play If I die Young during my funeral.
What's a living will?
I second this question, what's the difference between a will and a living will?
I have a living will. It's addressed to all immediate family. It says "my wealth and treasure? If you want it, I'll let you have it. Look for it, I left all of it at that place!"
How does this relate to ethics?
Had to go through this with my uncle and he didn’t have a will or anything. My dad had to do everything without the other 3 siblings he had for help.well barely any help from them. If he just had a will, the shit would of been done 6 months ago
Is there an age reccomdenation for when you should begin?
The will to live I agree with but not all of us can afford the power of an attorney.
Upon my death all of my belongings shall transfer to the man or animal who has killed me.
My dad had to get a power of attorney for my grandparents recently. It's made dealing with insurance companies etc much easier.
And designate a health care proxy - and have conversations with that person about what you would want!
Importantly, a health care proxy is very different than power of attorney. Power of attorney applies to legal decision making, not medical decision making.
Also make sure your beneficiaries are in order. New IRA applications also request an authorized person that someone can discuss your estate with when the time comes.
What does that have to do with ethics?
Because when you don’t have them in order, if something medically catastrophic happens, it is a huge ethical dilemma about what to do for you.
As the Executive Director of a Hospice. Thank you. People underestimate how important this is to their last remaining quality-of-life.
Depends on if you trust your family to do what you wish. My parents and husband have known for years my wishes (made the decisions at a certain point in my life) for pretty much how I want everything to go. From not resuscitating me, what music to play at the funeral, to the fact I want a closed casket funeral.
Just paid $2k for a living trust, will, medical directive, and power of attorney.
That will save my kids the hassle of going through probate court.
Yes this. I've told my brothers if I ever die get rid of my Facebook. I don't want people who I haven't seen in 15 years pouring their heart out and everyone "grieving" over my death on social media. If they're really upset go to my funeral, say goodbye and we'll leave it at that. I'd just want all the photos printed out for my young son.
Frankly, I'm too lazy to look into this, but why is it ethical to have one?
It’s more to do with how you are treated-it’s an ethical situation when you are unable to make your own medical decisions. Medical personnel have to try and save your life via “heroic measures”. If they can keep you clinically alive they will. If you don’t want to be kept alive as a vegetable, then make it known in writing so that ethically, medical personnel do right by you.
A tldr of that link sure would be nice.
It's a good idea, but PLEASE take the time to be very specific with a DNR order in a living will. My grandmother is old, she is 94, at 92 she had this... bulb? pop on her Aorta. The doctors were able to save her only because my mom and aunt were with her at the moment it occured.
Somehow during the procedure there came a debate about a breathing tube and whether it specifically violated a DNR. We learned that there were "hard" and "soft" DNRs and that despite how simple a breathing tube is, it actually violates a hard DNR. These are all things you 100% do NOT want to be dealing with while Grandma is on what is maybe her death bed. The language left enough ambiguity to cause an argument between her three daughters (my mom and my two aunts) while my grandma is in limbo 100 feet away. We had had discussions with my grandma in the past about what a DNR meant to her... and the answer was really unclear. Really, really unclear.
Do not let this happen to you.
DNR is good. A clarified DNR is best.
I am currently facing an uphill battle with/for my mother post stroke. As awful/morbid as it is you have to make arrangements for the worst.
It's kind of telling that I'm considering my will. I'm not that old, but I figure I should have one since I have assets now.
Man, it really bothers me that "decide who gets my money when I'm dead" is so high on Reddits list of priorities. If you'd said "will everything to charity, eliminate inheritance" you'd have less karma.
POA are stupid to have until you absolutely positively need them, it literally removes every bit of choice you have, they need to be renewed constantly and are expensive. The average person doesnt ever need a POA.
You can tell this guy is on his death bed lol
lol
Dude.
The clothing industry is pretty terrible for the environment, especially fast fashion. Best of all is to only buy clothes you need, but if you do buy clothes then buy second hand, or buy higher quality clothes that will last longer- which will be cheaper in the long run anyway.
EDIT: Some people talking about how to find quality clothes, since some expensive stuff is still crap that will fall apart- I'm no expert but just Google "how to identify quality clothes" and take it from there.
And yet they're closing their outlet stores. Sell the shit at cost. I only buy t-shirts there because they're like $6 and last forever but it would be awesome if they had crazy overstocked sales.
I feel like if they had donated the clothes to an impoverished population it would've been more efficient and not to mention the PR.
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I'm sure there are some places or orphanages around the world that could benefit without badly impacting the economy, someone else did mention though that they don't burn clothes that are safe to wear.
The article says they don't burn clothes that are safe to use.
If only they put things people actually want to buy on clearance. Burn the clearance stuff, nobody buys it anyway, and put some of the overpriced stuff on sale, then everyone's happy.
And they still want 20 euros for a tshirt. Fuck them, ill get one from primark for 2 euros.
Yeah, buying better quality is great and all... Except if youre broke.
There is a great website "BuyMeOnce.com" which features products that are meant to last decades or even a lifetime. There is a brand of socks called Darn Tough that I found through there that come with a LIFETIME warranty. For socks!
/r/buyitforlife
Wow, thanks! There really is a subreddit for everything!
I just unsubbed to it finally. You'll find almost nothing but posts that are "My grandpa bought this in the 60s, still going for life!"
It used to be about what you could buy that was higher quality, and letting others know, now it's just a show off sub for things you'll most likely never find.
Their sidebar is still very informative. Day to day posts are almost a complete wash.
But you bet that when I start getting ready to replace the secondhand meh kitchen knives that I was given 7 years ago, I'll hop over to their sidebar and take a look-see.
But yeah, their day to day stuff is meh.
Yo, get some old hickory knives if you're into carbon steel. Reasonably priced, easy to sharpen, none of that newfangled stainless steel bullshit. I've got an old hickory butcher's knife that looks ridiculous (more like a machete) that fucking slices through pork ribs and hefty beef bones like they ARE NOT THERE. Seriously, I could take somebody's head off with the easiest swing of this thing. Such a great knife for cutting meat and bone.
For kitchen knives the best thing you can do is get some sharpening stones and teach yourself how to use them. Even cheap knives can be really sharp without a lot of effort.
I went with diamond sharpening stones since they should last for the rest of my life.
Same here.. The sub has gone to shit over the past year.
I'm really glad your comment is pretty visible. I know the community doesn't want it to be the brag-show its become - but it keeps certain people there. Quality items you purchase may not show their investment return for years and people want to post now, so it is messed up.
The worst part is? There was, not too long ago, a pretty vicious thread, one that I reaped a lot of karma in admittedly, complaining about it. And it was hotly debated, but nothing changed, so, unsubbed.
It sucks too, because like, when I subbed to it two years prior, it WAS all about posting stuff that had good track records that you could still reasonably buy, or solid warranties, etc.
I think that thread showed up on my front page /all. I haven't checked your post history or anything but I don't doubt it.
The actual buy it for life comments that are interesting I find in the oddest places, such as iama requests, diy (guess it isn't that odd), gardening. It is still rare but I do notice them.
A lot of the stuff I buy isn't ever high end but I do try to take care of it.
It's all the same shit, too. Love the sentiment, but had to unsub after the 100th post of socks.
I'm about to quit that sub too. It really needs better moderation. It could be so useful, but now it's just "really old stuff" instead of "lifetime quality stuff."
I subbed. Then I read your comment and unsubbed..
Yep. Its totally unhelpful, its just bragging. And a good 30% of the posts are just boots, of which any half way decent pair will last you a life time.
Went there to find good products I can buy that will last a lifetime and left exactly because of what you said, almost every post was a watch, pocketknife, or car that someone was given or had and just made it last for like 40 years.
I guess it's hard to know if you bought it for life until it's been in use for a long time.
That was point of discussion in the BifL meta thread not too long ago. A few people, myself included, suggested that it doesn't need to have a cut off period, per say, but it should be items that you can still purchase the make/model of new retail, and that it's still known for having the same quality as before.
Whether that be comparing a set of really good razor blades that last a stupidly long time, or a Snap-on brand tool or something. I mean, you know? Like, the actual intent of the sub is different from the actual name, and that it's for more than just life, but for products that last an unusually long time.
I completely agree with you. It's interesting (slightly) to see grandma's gardening shears that she sharpened every year and that are still used on that same hedge today, but it's a lot more interesting if I can have them too.
I just looked there now and didn’t see anything like that. Looks like an interesting sub!
Buy secondhand?...
Unreliable. Can't depend on being able to find things second hand, especially when the item has been out of production for decades.
Plus, that doesn't get around the real problem: survivorship bias. You just see that your grandma's sewing machine lasted a long time. You don't see the thousands of machines that failed. And you wouldn't comment (or likely even know of) the ones that grandma saw fail.
I was also a subscriber for a while before I got fed up with all the garbage quality posts. Heck, the comments would so frequently even point out the whole survivorship bias issue. It's like the people who vote and the people who comment are two disjoint sets.
Reddit would really benefit from taking the upvote button off of the subreddit home page
Reddit should give mods an option of only allowing people with X amount of time subbed to upvote content. Smaller communities with great content get exposure and there's a huge influx of people who love the concept, but don't have anything that really fits the bill in terms of content, but think they do. So they start posting, and then people like them, who love the concept but don't really get it, start up voting. And then subs that have a great concept and purpose for existence become worse because there's no period where people have to see what the content is about. Then the karma whores move in. And then it just goes further downhill.
True. I guess my comment was a big vague but I was thinking in the spirit of this post - buy second hand, try and buy quality if you do buy new and then look after your things! Own less but maintain it. That's the way I'd interpret buy it for life.
Without exploring the sub in great depth (was getting late last night) I'd still like to see things which are still working that people were given by the grandparents etc but it would be disappointing if it was out of production. Maybe we need a new subreddit for that stuff? r/stillgoin r/awesomeoldstuff
Is there a subreddit for crippling depression lol
https://www.reddit.com/r/cripplingalcoholism/
/r/curledfeeties
/r/tippytaps
/r/disneyeyes
/r/jellybeantoes
/r/barkour
/r/animalsbeingbros
/r/catpranks
/r/tuckedinkitties
Hope you feel better soon.
/r/wholesomememes
r/ofcoursethatsathing
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/r/GetMotivated
It's a quantum effect. The mere act of thinking of something causes it to exist somewhere on the internet.
r/mermaidbondage
There you go. Odds are, that sub didn't exist ten minutes ago.
It did. Source: found it months ago.
r/breadstapledtotrees
Jesus Christ!
It's a waste of time sub. You will soon be me telling someone else in a month or two. The cycle continues
r/MoleJokes
/r/wowthissubexists
Eh - its mostly /r/buythisoverpriceditemthatismarginallybetterbutmuchmoreexpensivethansomethingthatwouldlast99%aslong
Been a member of that sub for ages... it has been devolving to the point it is almost worthless nowadays - nothing but posts of crap people find in attics, or inherit from grandparents, etc. Instead of actually recommending things that we all can truly buy, now, for life.
It;s just a phase. It was in a $500 man-purse for being a hitchhiking hipster phase a while ago.
Subscribed, thanks
Nice.
I do like my bullet proof stuff.
Darn Tough hell yeah. I have a pair that made it through all of high school. 4 seasons of cross country and 4 seasons of track on top of normal wear and I still wear them.
Is this the website you're talking about?
https://buymeonce.com/
yes that's it!
Darn Tough are the best socks. I didn't realize how much of an impact socks can make on my day until I started wearing them.
Does this cover your washing machine eating them when you're not looking?
Yes! They replace socks for just about any reason.. I'e heard stories of people sending back half-eaten socks that their dog chewed on, and the company replaces them :) Darn Tough is the best!
I'e heard stories of people sending back half-eaten socks that their dog chewed on, and the company replaces them :)
aka paying for advertising with free merchandise...
It's like $20 for a single pair of socks. They can easily replace them like 4-5x and still break even.
Goddamn reddit and its love of darned tough socks!
That said, fucking buy them. They are stupid expensive. Their patterns look a little stupid. They feel like my parent's absent love on my feet. Seriously, so goddamned comfortable. As a big fucking guy who wears huge work boots (13 1/2) and runs around 10-12 hours nightly, they NEVER WEAR OUT. I'm stupidly heavy and these socks just keep trucking. Lifetime warranty.
r/hailcorporate or some such shit. Buy darned tough socks.
hey feel like my parent's absent love on my feet.
I literally LOLed at this one. You should be in a commercial for them!
Wait, what? Lifetime you say?
Yes, they are amazing! I never knew socks could be so durable. Really popular with army guys. My husband's a veteran and he loves them.
If they ever get a hole in them, the company will replace them for free. But we've never had to do so and have used them for years now.
Do they come in black? Jk, I'll check myself, thank you for this info.
Darn Tough socks are awesome! Heck yeah for quality Vermont manufacturing!
Made right here in Vermont! I have about 25 pairs. I wear them liberally during the colder months and they barely wear. They're so comfy and warm too.
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Hey there! Happy Mud Season!!
Had some Darn Tough socks. Ripped after 4 months. They weren't tough enough to work as a server.
I humbly recommend point6 socks. It's the company the SmartWool founders started after they sold SW. I met them at a trade show in 2011 and they gave me 2 pairs of socks. I've been wearing them frequently for 7 years and they are barely showing any wear. I've bought at least a dozen more pairs since. They're pricy but for my money there is no better wool sock.
ETA: they are USA-made, guaranteed for life, and they also offer the option to send your old socks back (if they ever actually wear out) and they recycle them into blankets for the homeless. I know I sound like a shill at this point, but this is one of a very small handful of companies that I really think is doing things right.
Cheers, I'll give em a look.
I have 6 identical pairs of socks from them that I've had for about 2 years now. No issues with any of them besides one that ripped on a seam about 3 weeks into owning them, for seemingly no reason.
Nice products having issues doesn't mean the product is crap, it means you got unlucky; no company can make 100% of the products perfect for the entirety of their business life. Just send them back and get a free replacement pair. I promise that was a fluke unless you wear the same pair of socks day-after-day for a week or two consistently.
do you by chance mean "Buy me Once"? Buy it once didn't seem to be a website
Yes I did! Thanks for the catch. I will edit the comment to reflect.
Thanks for helping me find them. I know where my next pair of socks will come from
Darn tough are amazing. They're expensive but super well worth it. I've got a few pairs the Army gave me and I'm still wearing them.
Plus, ya know, the whole lifetime warranty is amazing.
I wish the reason why I am buying new socks is because they broke, not because I somehow just bought a drawer full of black ones and have one of each color of the whole spectrum after one wash
My hubby LOVES darn tough socks. We’re slowly replacing all his socks with those. He’s on his feet in a factory for 8-12 hours a day, and they are holding up great! I think some pairs he’s had for a couple years, but I’m not sure on that.
Does the warranty stand if you wear them without shoes? I hate shoes, but socks are good for reducing foot/floor friction when dancing.
There are no conditions on the warranty. You could light your socks on fire and as long as you can send them enough scraps to demonstrate they were in fact their brand of socks, they would replace them.
Another excellent company with a lot of similarities to Darn Tough is point6. Super high quality merino socks, USA-made, family owned, guaranteed for life.
I am a wool sock enthusiast of sorts - I couldn't tell you the last time cotton socks were on my feet. I think point6 comes out just slightly ahead of Darn Tough for comfort. I can't compare durability since my oldest pair of Darn Toughs is only about 2 years old (my oldest point6 socks are 7 years old and going strong). Price is in the same ballpark for both brands.
Both of them blow current SmartWool socks out of the water, in terms of comfort and durability, if not price. Once upon a time, SW socks were bomber. But the company was sold to Timberland in 2005, and again to VF in 2011. And in my opinion/experience their quality has been on a gradual decline since the first sale. I have a couple pairs from the pre-acquisition days (yes, I have 14 year old socks) and they're still holding up. I mention this because the family that founded and runs point6 is the same family that founded SmartWool.
One of my biggest mental health triggers is my wardrobe. Finding things to fit my tall/long proportions that dont shrink or tear in a year is impossible. Thank you for this. I am very willing to spend $100 on jeans for 10 years instead of $100 per year.
Darn Tough
Darn Tough socks are boss. They're the only thing I wear hunting.
They have an annual sale that will save you a ton of money too.
oh nice! Is it the sale the same time every year? And if so, do you know when?
It's usually in the fall, IIRC.
sites down now haha we did it again reddit! > BuyMeOnce.com
I'm wearing some right now! They're extremely comfortable too!
I LOVE my Darn Tough socks. I've replaced two pairs with them, simple and easy. But I honestly think they are super comfortable too. Much better than the cheap brands.
I'm wearing a pair I'd darn tough socks that I got almost 5 years ago. Still fresh. Well not currently as they've been in workbooks all day but after they're washed later this week.... Darn fresh.
Holy smokes! Seriously?! My husband goes through work socks like crazy! His work boots wear them down super fast and the money going into new socks adds up fast
These are definitely the socks for him, my friend.
$20 for a pair is a bit pricey but if it comes with a lifetime guarantee then I'm sold.
Darn Tough are the best. I go to the factory sale every year and load up on super cheap pairs of factory seconds.
Sloggi has a lifetime warranty on their underwear range EverNew as well! :)
A lifetime warranty on socks isn't often practical because it assumes: 1. You'll never lose your socks 2. The company will always be around
Mind you, if you are confident in both of those things then it's a great idea.
While it is true that it's assuming a lot the company will still exist in 50 years to replace any ripped socks, they are so durable and comfortable (especially in the cold weather) that I'd pay the higher price ($15-$20 a pair) even without the guarantee. For me the warranty is a bonus rather than my motivation for purchasing.
Search Men's Pants.
"Sorry, there are no products in this collection"
Filson tin pants
That’s nice and all that it will last so long, but $350 for a shirt is still too steep for me to justify. I’ll just have to keep ruining the planet with prices like that.
But can they protect then for being lost?
Can somebody explain to me the x2 behind this users name?
Such strong and comfy socks.
checks username I hope you aren't from Boston if that's how you found Darn Tough!
The Darn Tough socks are fantastic until the washing machine eats them two weeks after you buy them. RIP (they are great socks tho)
Those are so expensive
I wish I could up vote this twice
Does that lifetime warranty cover you when the dryer inevitably eats one of your socks?
I'm not spending $20 dollars on a pair of socks.
Are the Darn Tough socks thick though? Most of the high quality socks I've had before have been pretty thick and/or wool, but I just want something thin and unintrusive for everyday use.
They do have "light crew" socks which aren't as thick as most of their other things, but even those are on the thick side. You aren't going to find something that is equivalent to thin polyester or cotton socks.
Redhead socks from Bass Pro Shops also have a lifetime warranty.
Does the warranty include when the dryer eats one of them?
I have a couple pairs of Darn tough. They are awesome socks, I just wish they would retain that nice padding longer after the wash.
Bought a pair of those socks, seemed really good the one time I wore them. I'm convince that my washer ate one of them and now I only have one.
I love Darn Tough socks, not just because they are a local company for me but because of their no-limits return and replace policy. You can literally find a torn, ripped to shreds darn tough sock on the side of the road, and as long as the majority of it is still there, they will replace it for free. They will think you are a crazy person, but they will replace it.
The products are grossly overpriced. 341$ for a pair of fucking earphones?!
You can fuck right off!
I don't know enough about the IEMs they are selling to comment on them but the price taken alone, $341 for quality earphones isn't that bad. Pretty solid mid-tier headphone price. Head on over to /r/headphones if you want to see some truly expensive cans.
I can get quality BLUETOOTH headphones for 50 bucks. Thats 1/6 th of the cost bruh.
And they aren't even noise-cancelling, they are "noise-isolating"
quality BLUETOOTH headphones
lol no
Hell yeah. I'll report to you in about 5 years to prove my point.
And check these out : https://www.amazon.in/Ferrari-Scuderia-Bluetooth-Stereo-Earphones/dp/B075K7V1XR
In 5 years, bluetooth might actually might not be a steamy pile of shit. v4 is good progress. But it's still terrible.
Also come on, those are just a joke.
No those aren't I am using them right now. Let's see in five years who's laughing. And I guarantee you that in 5 years apple will NOT be the only one to ditch the headphone jack. Then feel free to cry over your 350$ earphones which last a DECADE!
And I guarantee you that in 5 years apple will NOT be the only one to ditch the headphone jack.
They're already not the only ones, so what kind of a guarantee is that?
Then feel free to cry over your 350$ earphones which last a DECADE!
My $350 headphones have already lasted over a decade.
Well if I buy them now they aren't gonna last a decade coz no headphone jack so why the fuck even have this argument they are already outdated GIDDAMNIT!
Neither the headphone jack nor analog audio tranmission is going to be outdated in a decade. Some very portable devices may require a dongle, that's all.
It is. Wake up and smell the coffee, my friend. The world is gonna be wireless.
Some are, it's true, even when you account for the fact you hopefully will not have to replace them for decades (if ever). But I've managed to find quite a few items that, while pricier than their less durable counterparts, are still reasonable.
Adding to this, sewing and stiching are useful traits to have. Yes even if you a man. Because our cloths tend to have the most buttons and cuffs and stiching that are easily repairable. There has bound to be some idiot who thew away a $120 shirt because a button came off.
You don't even have to know how to sew to put a button on. I'm sure some purist would have a stroke, but I have zero clue about how to sew anything and have managed to reattach buttons.
I have no clue how to sew either, but I did fix a hole in my daughter's pants last week. It looks horrible, but she's still wearing them, so win/win.
[deleted]
I think that's pretty much the basics of it at least
As far as I'm aware, isn't that the technique?
To sew a button back on properly, it's actually better if you do a slightly crappy job. If you sew it on tight, you won't be able to get it through a buttonhole, so it's actually better if you hold it at a slant or otherwise do something to kind of do a crappy job. Then you add a couple wraps to help hold it off and keep the threads together and you're done.
If it's obviously hanging then that's too terrible -- you're going for just a little bad, and that makes it perfect.
That’s not crappy! That’s called adding a shank to a flat button. It’s how you’re supposed to see on flat buttons! Also, use parallel stitches, not an x-shape. X-shape puts too much pressure on the center and will snap the button.
For people who don't know diddly about sewing, it seems wrong. :)
You and I know it's right, but it's just... loose, and doesn't feel right to a neophyte.
The simplest thing on a shirt is just check the other buttons that are still attached. If it is tighter than them it's too tight.
Even if you don't know, there's Youtube and Wiki How.
I buy my dress shirts with pearl snaps. If one comes off I'm fucked.
Purist master seamstress here. You sew that button on! It's not rocket surgery, just thread a needle and sew.
I have never owned a $120 shirt in my life. I'm 37.
Shop at thrift stores.
Shoot, what are you waiting for? ;)
Just kidding -- you can get wonderful shirts for less and the more you shop around the lower the price will eventually go. I have a beautiful white french-cuff dress shirt that I got at ~~Maceys~~ Macy's on sale for about $25 (online) with free shipping. My tuxedo shirt was about $35 -- I don't remember where I got it from, but it wasn't at Macy's, sorry.
Now suits are a different story, but if you're willing to shop around and spend some time looking you can get great deals although if you need a shirt right now then you'll pay through the nose.
Edit: fixed store name
We only have Macy*s in these parts.
The most expensive shirt i've ever owned was like $30, I think. It was a nice dress shirt with alterations that was only for things like funerals or super-formal events. (I am not a formal person.)
The most expensive item of clothing was definitely my heavy winter parka, but it's still nothing compared to the cost of winter clothes from North Face, Canada Goose, etc.
Or find a clothes repair/alterations shop for smaller jobs and a tailor for bigger changes. Your clothes will last longer and/or fit better for it. Plus you'll likely be supporting a local business and ensuring skills don't disappear.
On that subject, buy quality shoes, take proper care of them, and take them to a cobbler when they need resoling. Cobblers are hard to find but they still exist.
Yeah, a $400 shoe takes a while to save for (though you can easily find it on sale for under $200, or used for under $50), but it will last you so many years that in the long run it will be far cheaper than a $40 shoe.
$400 on a shoe is completely unjustifiable. Youjcan easily get shoes that will last decades for a quarter of that price.
I own 3 pairs of $300/pair Johnston & Murphy's. I purchased each pair at thrift stores. Cheapest was $8, most expensive was $12.
easily get shoes that will last decades for a quarter of that price
Not new and made of leather, and certainly not in the US or in Europe etc.
I’m talking about work shoes that you’re wearing frequently, and that will last you anywhere from years to a lifetime, if you care for them properly. Not about something you wear once a year and lasts you “decades” (if it doesn’t fall apart on its own before then, like so many of the cheaper shoes tend to nowadays.)
You can sometimes be lucky with some mass produced shoes that last a while, but you won’t find nowadays something you can wear everyday or close to that, for decades, for the price you mentioned. (Especially not sneakers, like someone else in the thread mentioned. You can’t even resole those, unlike the leather work shoes.)
The only way you’d find prices this low is if you’re buying it actually in Brazil, India or some other place with much lower costs. But you’d have to be there for the fitting etc., if you want it to really be ideal for your foot shape.
I’m a shoemaker. I’m not making this up.
Or, you can buy a $400 shoe on sale for way less, or even buy it used for under $50 like I said, and get it resoled if needed. Nobody said you had to buy it new.
Work shoes, maybe. But I have a couple of pairs of casual real leather boots that I wear nearly daily and show no signs of wear after 7 years. None of them cost more than £120.
You're a shoemaker, it's in your interest to make this up lol.
£120 is $170 though. That’s around the price range I gave for the example with the $400 shoes when they’re on sale. Those are quality leather shoes, they are expected to last long, it’s normal. (Yours will last many more years if you take good care of them and resole them once they need it.)
The point of my original comment was more that you can’t expect the same longevity of a $40 pair of mass-produced crap. Resolable leather in general is in a whole other category than glued cheaper artificial materials. With leather, especially once it gets closer to $200 or thereabouts (new, used can be much cheaper) you’re of course in a much better category.
Also I’m not selling here, so I have no reason to embellish it. :P
If anything I just like to bring it up because hand-made shoes are a dying art and it’s important to know the quality you can get from those vs. something made of artificial materials and thrown together by a machine.
I'm wearing $150 leather boots that will probably last just as long as those $400 shoes you're talking about, though.
They most likely aren’t 100% the same. Although some of it might just be cosmetic detail differences and production amounts etc.
$150 is fine too. Maybe it will live almost as long. It’s not necessary to pay that much, as you can buy them used for much less, but that’s not the point.
The point is more than you can’t expect a new $40 shoe to live as long as a new $400 one, like many people strangely want to believe.
Or less. I've got sneakers and heels from the early 90s that are still going strong, and none cost more than $50 at the time.
Thanks for reminding me, my partner's been asking me to sew a button back onto his coat, I'll do it and show him how at the same time.
I have a great coat that my shoulders got too big for. Opened the seams and added in some extra fabric from an old torn backpack.
Upside:I saved the $100+ on getting a new coat. Downside: Wife now makes me do any sewing on her clothes because I'm "so good at it."
It's total bullshit that sewing isn't considered a manly activity. Rugged, heavily bearded individualist lumberjacks should be capable of repairing their own clothes, just like they can repair their tools. Throwing perfectly good clothes out because you're unable to perform basic maintenance is for incompetent sissies, in my opinion.
Rugged buff man but after a while your cloths break and you end up looking like a homeless person.
Sure, your clothes won't last forever. As they need more mending and get shabbier, they move down the clothes heirarchy, from work/dates, to casual, to active wear, to dirty work wear, to cloth scraps and rags.
So true. I do a lot of outdoors stuff and have saved so much by repairing my clothes when they get little rips. I really suck at it, but at least I get more mileage out of my clothes.
I’m 22, just got really into thrift flips (been thrifting for forever, have always wanted to figure out how to DIY clothes but was always lazy/depressed). I’m learning to sew and embroider so i can make my own pieces! Can’t wait to have cuter clothes than everyone and say i made them.
My boss.
Kanji Tatsumi would 100% agree.
Iron-on denim patches have saved many pairs of my jeans. If it’s a small hole and you put the patch on the inside, it’s barely noticeable.
Definitely. My girlfriend taught me how to fix holes in my pockets yesterday, and I can't believe how I survived before this. Just added four pairs of pants back into rotation.
I was new to college at 36 after being a housewife for years, and had to teach the class for 10 minutes about any subject. I decided to teach them how to sew buttons, and everyone single person had fun sewing these giant buttons onto a piece of felt. A couple of kids called me the button lady after that.
What do you mean, even if you're a man? Men do that shit perfectly well. I'm a huge beardy dude who stitches and sews some cloth, it doesn't diminish my tremendous masculinity. I resent the implication.
I teach stitching, and you wouldn’t believe how many dudes just automatically assume it’s impossible for them. And conversely, how many girls just assume they can sew despite never having picked up a needle, and are shocked when it’s hard. I have to assure both that they’re perfectly capable people who are lacking in instruction, and they’ll learn just fine.
Also, burly bearded dude who can sew? Super hot.
I've started to buy everything secondhand. It's a bit of a PITA, and sometimes I can't find something I need and have to buy new. For the most part, it was an easy switch once the mindset was there.
Craigslist and eBay are my friends.
Try poshmark. I try to buy ethical brands(tend to be $$$) or 2nd hand. It’s been a godsend. 😊
I never see deals on Poshmark anymore. :( Seems like 90% of postings are brand-new full price items or people trying to sell straight-up rags that aren't worth 20 cents, let alone 20 dollars.
Lately I've been searching Poshmark for things I already own but are getting raggedy, or used to own but got rid of, - purses I had in 2008, favorite brand of solid tees, stuff like that. I'm finding a ton, for like $5-10 each. I even bought bras and a swimsuit secondhand. Some may think it's icky but if it was barely used and I throw it in the wash with soap there's nothing actually gross about it, just a mental hurdle.
And learn to repair clothes. Don't throw away a shirt just because it's missing a button.
How often does this actually happen though? In my experience, all of the clothes I have had that needs repairing is stuff that has ripped. While I could still stitch stuff like that back together it wouldn't look nice.
You're right, it wouldn't look as nice as throwing it out and buying something new. The question wasn't "what ethical life choices can we make that wouldn't inconvenience us at all?"
This goes doubly for baby clothes. They grow so fast their clothes might get worn once. Just look for hand me downs or garage sale clothes. Don't buy new.
My town has huge consignment sells a couple of times a year and they are a godsend. 90% of my toddler daughter's clothes come from there. The only new clothes we buy are special outfits for holidays and swimsuits and the only reason we buy swimsuits new is the ones we tend to find in consignment are kinda trashy looking. I mean come on there's no reason for skimpy two-piece swimsuits to even exist in her size lol.
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ha, am i your SO?
r/ThriftStoreHauls ftw
The weird thing is, I haven't found a clear correlation between quality and price. I've bought expensive boutique clothes that fell apart the third time I wore them, and on the other hand I have Old Navy stuff that's literally lasted decades.
Patagonia is a massive advocate for this, they even run their own second hand market for their clothes to incentivize people to recycle their clothes instead of throwing them away. If I ever need something I see if they have it first.
Thrift stores have some high-quality clothes. Obviously you need to select carefully and inspect what you're buying. But you can do yourself a huge favor and save a lot of money on clothes with just a little thrift store running.... Pop some tags mother*
Donate the ones you don't want as well. No one should throw decent clothes away
I buy high fashion clothing and it actually plays a bit into your argument.
I'm going to take better care of the clothes considering their expense. They are typically the best construction and made in Italy so they are made to last with some exceptions. Once I'm done, I'm not simply going to throw away that $200 shirt, I'll resell it on ebay/grailed/second-hand shops and make a small amount of money back. By investing in expensive clothing, I'm giving myself incentives to not waste it.
Not suggesting everyone needs to buy expensive clothes, just saying the high fashion market is frequently collected and recycled.
I do this too. I found that I spend less on clothes overall when my clothes are higher quality and last longer/look better.
I work as a mechanic and I have to buy new jeans every 2-3 years as my old ones will wear out from working I'll have to check out buymeonce.com
I tried to do this and made a plan to buy a few things I needed. Instead of a $20 Target dress, I went to Nordstrom and Dillard's and guess what?? Their $60 and $80 dresses are still polyester! I don't get it. 😣 This kind of thinking seems to go along with minimalism, and I don't want plain t-shirts and stuff, I want lacey flowery intricate fun feminine stuff! I don't know where to shop.
This is my argument of why we need to reintroduce due to the fashion industry.
We use so much plastic in clothing, yet we kill thousands of rats/Mink/rabbits/squirrels everyday in pest control. I know in the U.K. we need to exterminate American Mink and Grey Squirrels as they pose a huge threat to our natural wildlife and had led to animals such a polecats/weasels becoming endangered, Australia has a similar problem.
If there was away to ethically source this fur, i.e fashion companies buying it from pest controllers rather than farms, then it would be a very sustainable way of getting biodegradable material back in the fashion industry.
Also fur coats/scarfs last for years and are really warm.
I’m not okay with mass fur farming or using threatened animals for fur. But we throw loads away as a bi-product of the food/pest industry, we don’t use it due to the sigma now attached to it.
I want to complement that with: the clothing industry is terrible for workers. Don't only buy second hand, also try to invest in fair trade brands. And don't be easily fooled:
The Fair Wear Foundation has lists of companies that are actually trying (as opposed to Nike and H&M and Hanes who pretend to be trying). Also look out for the GOTS certification as well as the Clean Clothes Campaign (no, it's not about detergent).
And for Pete's sake, stop buying clothes by the truckload. The really really cheap ones are that cheap for a reason, they're built on slavery.
I’ve actually started using clothing rental services for work clothes and dresses. It might not be more cost effective than buying secondhand or not buying at all, but I’m at a place where I can afford $60/month.
It saves me on dry cleaning costs (since many of these garments are high-quality and would need special care); keeps me from buying cheap clothes that I wear once or twice then donate; and frankly, it’s fun. I get 3 new outfits every 10 days or so.
For only $60/month? Which service do you use? I may need it.
It's so weird how all of the sudden when you're an adult "second-hand" becomes a pejorative. But, I know, thrift stores suck and usually have mostly shitty stuff. I don't think that having fashion sense/finer taste makes you a terrible person. Sometimes you need to look nice/fashion-forward, especially in the workplace.
I like nice stuff because I feel like it makes a difference in how serious people take me at work (women have to worry about this shit), but couldn't stomach the prices anymore. Having to keep up even semi-current styles is exhausting.
I stumbled upon some websites recently that sell second-hand designer clothes (www.thredup.com and www.poshmark.com )
I've recently scored some pretty awesome stuff on both. A lot of it has been worn/used once or may even still have tags and is usually 50-90% off retail. Plus, shipping from both has been super fast. Highly recommend both sites.
Really wish I could buy clothes online but I need to wear stuff to see if it fits. Even if it did fit I've been having issues with women's shirt being way too short in the front but really long or normal length in the back :/
I hate how drastic the same sizes can be
True! I usually buy brands that I am familiar with so I already know what their sizing is. For instance, I really like Banana Republic for work clothes, and I know which sizes fit me from them. It's not a perfect solution, but man, it does save money. They also have stuff like designer purses and whatnot.
I work for a fast fashion retailer and the amount of waste my store outputs daily is insane. Then I think about how many stores we have and many other stores and places that put out that much if not more waste. It's disgusting
I recycle what I can, but holy crap this company uses a lot of plastics.
This is impossible for poor people, and is actually a fairly well-known example of how people are punished for being poor. Yes, buying higher quality clothing is cheaper in the long run. But you can't go without clothes, so if you don't have enough to buy high quality, you're stuck in the more expensive cycle of buying crappy clothes over and over again.
thrift stores are a thing
One big issue is that there are not many options for people who are bigger. The sections bigger than medium are always smaller.
Or tall. It is really annoying how the section is always big and tall not big or tall. Twigs need clothes too.
Depends on how good the ones in your area are. In mine they're charging $10-15 for mostly fast fashion brand items, which at that point you might as well just buy them new.
You don't get high quality clothes at thrift stores.
In my area, people buy up the decent clothes in bulk and sell them online, so it's hard to find anything that isn't smelly, raggedy, or over/undersized
You could not be more wrong about that. I've found clothes worth more than 10 imes what I pay for, including a coat from Nepenthes that retails for $400.
Known as Sam Vines’ Shoe Theory
Use and support charity shops. ( supplying them with clothes and buying from them) There are so many poor that need a helping hand.
Yeah but I can’t find smalls in second hand stores. Or my shoe size. Or my pant size. Or my sock size. What do?
I have really small feet so I never find shoes thrifting. I just buy them from a regular shoe store. I find what I can. There's a few places I like that are smaller sizes, Plato's Closet, Depop, tradesy. Good Will sometimes has what I want but rarely do they fit perfectly.
Do you wear 7- 7 1/2?
5 1/2 - 6 1/2
I’ll definitely check those out! Thank you!
So... You're saying we should all go streaking?
I used to shop at Express for my shirts. $45 for a polo was a lot, but it was nice right? Now I buy $12 ones at Target that last 4 times as long.
But I want to look cute... :(
A 10$ shirt from h&m lasts 2 washes then dies.
A 150$ shirt from brook brothers lasts for a few years with multiple washes and looks nicer
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I think that by "my cheap shirt is holding up" they basically mean no visible holes. They don't care about the fit, faded colors/print, etc.
I got my school pants from h&m in gr9 by the end of the year they were in one piece but did not look nice any more.
The next year i got better quality lasted me until gr 12 in perfect condition sides art accidents.
Or that person can't take care of their clothes. I have shirts from h&m and they're all in one piece, no holes, machine wash cold and tumble dry, not faded, no loose threads. I have two shirts that get worn daily and have been good for 3 years now and they cost like $6.
What are you taking about? I've had my $10 shirt from there for over a year now, do you just throw rocks in with your laundry?
Same. I have an old divided tshirt from HnM I bought 7 years ago. Though the collar is a bit baconed the shirt is still in one piece and looks pretty decent
Seriously, I never understand that argument. My shit from cheap stores wears out at exactly the same rate as my shit from pricier stores. I have $2 shirts from Walmart that have lasted 10 years still looking relatively ok. Half my teenage crap from Weathervane and Mandee is still kicking around, still wearable even though it's been like 20 years.
I've had h&m t-shirts for 3 years now and they're still good. I bought sleeveless shirts there for landscaping and they're all dirty but still in one piece.
Always follow the Vimes theory of economics.
I work at a secondhand designer consignment shop and am trying to stick to only buying there!
Thrift shops are the best idea for anyone still growing or working on changing their body (building muscle, losing weight, etc).
I've repeatedly make the mistake of thinking I wasn't going to grow anymore. I bought a bunch of nice, moderately expensive clothes at 18: outgrew them. Bought expensive, high quality shoes at 19: went up a size and a half since then. Got back into weight lifting: thighs don't fit in my jeans and shoulders don't fit in my button ups.
I'm doing secondhand for anything possible now until I'm 25.
Not only is it better for the environment to shop like this , but you also end up with infinitely better/ more interesting clothes
Plus most clothes are some kind of poly-blend which doesn't break down so we're going to be stuck with a ridiculous amount of polyester waste from all the cheap clothing we've work and thrown aalway.
Plus the fast fashion market has spilled over into traditionally non-fast fashion retailers so if you value quality clothing and don't want this to become the trend everywhere it's something to consider.
Oh shit, then I'm amazing at environment. My wardrobe is like ten years old.
I used to work in a high end kitchen store and realized that it was the same with kitchen goods. If you're willing to spend a bit more money, you can easily buy a set of pans, cookware, bakeware etc that will last you decades.
Also, buying second hand means great deals at thrift shops
And repairing or tailoring clothes that no longer work for you can extend the life before buying!
By all accounts there's a power plant in Sweden fueled by H&M castoffs. H&M is currently sitting on $1Billion in unsold merch.
yeah, just by decent stuff and it'll last you a LONG time
once you own the basics (plus a suit and some nice dress shirts) you really don't need much else.
Good watch Planet Money Makes A T-Shirt: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp-wXwmbv3z8aAJrhyttiqPMiKy0WVJym
I feel like this specifically refers to plastic (spandex/ technical) fabrics, right?
I feel that if I leave my jeans out for a year that they'd probably make pretty good fertilizer.
I recommend a franchise called Blue Sky Clothing, they speicalze in clothing that is fair to the environment using organic fibers and dyes, fair trade to the people who produce it, and fair to all sizes.
They are definitely aimed at the mature professional and/or leisure wear crowd, but I find if I stick to their solid basic pieces like leggings or tanks or t-shirts they fit into my more eclectic youthful wardrobe just fine.
I used to go and buy like five or six pairs of old navy leggins on the cheap for 9ish dollars each, and they rarely lasted me a season. Some of the bamboo cotton leggings I have from Blue Sky are in their 3rd year and are still like new, they even have that little extra triangle in the crotch area, which I find makes them far less susceptible to my chub rub.
For those who don't know about "fast fashion" there is a great doc titled "The True Cost". (I saw it on Netflix, not sure if it's still available there... blocked at work so I can't check) Learn how bad it is for us all.
Fantastic soundtrack as well.
I just buy used clothing on eBay...lots of used 80s and 90s clothing and t-shirts and i walk around looking like a blast from the past...but I think it's cheaper than buying new clothing and cooler for being retro and then it's environmentally friendly...
I love poshmark for this purpose.
American Giant is a great brand if you're looking for quality clothes that last.
This is one of those things I sorely wish I could do, but I'm a big & tall guy so most of my clothes are going to be unsustainable for the foreseeable future. Makes me feel awful.
Last time I bought clothes was a little over a year ago. I almost needed to get some socks late last year but Xmas was coming, waited and got some more although not as many as I expected. Might need to buy more socks or at the very least sort through how many have holes some time around June.
My friend made a movie about this.
Another great alternative: learn to sew. I have benefitted so much by getting clothes at a thrift store and repurposing them to suit me better.
Go for linen! Very environmentally friendly from seed to suit! And so light and breathable and lasts so much linger than cotton or friggin polyester. r/mensfashion taught me cool facts about linen to love it even more check it out or r/frugalmensfashion
I used to buy my clothes from Walmart as that's what my family did (because my mom was a single mother of 3) and I didn't change from that. I had tshirts for years and I had gf who commented that I was cheap even though I hardly ever buy any clothes (maybe socks). Late last year I bought some shirts from Macys because I have money and should probably improve my clothing quality and holey shit are they already ruined. Belt loops are torn, holes at seams that tear easier from being washed.
That moment when you're scrolling through reddit at work and find the trial raider in the wild :P
So many of the shirts I bought in high school are still wearable. They are made of great material, high quality prints, good stitching, etc. 10 years later, and the graphic t-shirts I buy wear out in a few seasons. It's really sad.
Any suggestions for a pair of casual leather boots I can buy? I want ones thatll last at least 5 years and not fall apart in 5 months like my current ones.
Not only bad for the environment, but also for the people that make your clothes. Watch the true cost documentary on netflix, ted talk but Justine lecomte. Or Justine lecomte YouTube channel.
I'm no expert but just Google "how to
Sound like an expert to me.
There is a French girl who lives in Berlin that has a great YouTube channel that has videos of how to know if this or that is quality. Justine something. ( I will look up) I’m not a fashion person but the channel is good.
I’d love to know where I can try and buy quality Jean’s. 501 last me 6 months nowadays.
This I actually don't agree with. Its not unethical to buy those clothes; however, it is very unethical what those clothing companies are doing. You should buy whatever clothes you want, but to make a difference you need to protest or speak out against them. If you don't buy there clothes you're not actually making a difference, you're just turning a blind eye to the problem. Get out and speak out against those things! Help those people!
Have a good day everyone :)
You can do both.
If no one would buy their clothes then that would be one hell of a protest. Vote with your wallet.
No that would just lead them to either advertise more or lower the prices. And that's a hypothetical situation which isn't really a relevant argument.
There are so many small companies and designers that can be hard to find that are really trying to bring sustainability.
My girlfriend makes organic clothes and I used to not believe in it, but once you wear her shirts it's hard to go back. The fabric is so soft. And then she told me about the process and how insane most everyday clothing production is...
It's just this fantastic feeling of supporting something that really means smth.
yeah. everyone tells me to buy all those flimsy designer expensive clothes so I can look good, I think that they just want to control what I wear and they can pretend i'm someone i'm not if that makes sense.
Maybe if you got 0 sense of fashion ya.
Fuck no.
There's a great magazine and website called "Ethical Consumer" which looks into different suppliers and companies and helps you make more ethical choices.
Link for those who are interested: http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/
There's a few websites I use to help make better choices like this:
I think that Give Well really sets a great example for how organizations that are doing these kinds of rating should be run. They're constantly questioning themselves and trying to improve, even when it's not obvious what the best choice is.
And I think that's something we can all do when thinking about ethical life choices, a good definition of rational is "trying to prove yourself wrong", which is pretty much the opposite of what we all do most of the time. We take the easy way out and then justify our choice after the fact. If we want to be ethical it means really looking at ourselves and asking if we're making choices just by following the herd, or just through momentum of if we're really questioning ourselves and trying to improve.
This may be buried because of the lateness, but to the few that see it:
Monterey Bay Aquarium has a website (and App) for sustainable yield seafoods. By fish and occasionally restaurant. http://www.seafoodwatch.org/
Be careful of Skin Deep. They've gotten a little woo lately, and sometimes aren't as accurate as I'd like.
Yeah the Environmental Working Group as a whole is pretty quacky.
Used to intern there, can confirm. Got a pretty sweet water bottle tho
No shit! What kind of quackery can you confirm?
The Cornucopia Institute's reports looks like a bunch of nonsense to me as a veterinarian - in particular, the dairy and pet food sections.
This is one of the more meaningful responses in the thread. Thank you.
I've perused Charity Navigator before, but I'll cross-reference on Give Well in the future.
I love love love this response. :) especially the last paragraph. YES.
I’ve tagged it for future reference!
Also, side note, i can easily find information on how the chemicals in hygiene products are harmful to the ones using them, but rarely can I find information on the ethical practices at the production level - I’m less concerned about giving myself cancer than I am about the fact that because I want to have wrinkle free skin, and entire community is being poisoned elsewhere in the world. I have a hunch this is the case but I wish my research skills were up to the task of either confirming or disproving my fears. Advice?
The reason you can't find reliable production-level info about ethical practices is that they're not required disclosures for cosmetics companies. The FDA tangentially regulates cosmetics insofar as they will investigate major complaints, strictly regulate use of specific ingredients (or quantities of others that are not considered drugs at certain low percentages), and do try to enforce labeling and advertising laws, but provided the product for sale is not labeled illegally or a health hazard, there is little oversight for individual products and even less for ingredient sources because cosmetics do not undergo the same rigorous production oversight as otc drugs or dietary supplements (which until 2010ish were almost completely unregulated, too).
This is not to say that cosmetics are largely terrible; I think most companies that market themselves as manufacturers of ethical products are genuinely making an effort to be the change, and mass-market/drugstore brands have too much to lose to cut the kinds of corners that would cause a public health concern. But unless a company is legitimately attempting to be transparent, you'll almost certainly not find any sourcing info for their ingredients. This is also because the source is usually the lowest bidder at the time and can change monthly (or even daily for large manufacturers), depending on cost and availability.
Note: Eggs and milk are never humane.
In the dairy industry, dairy cows are forcefully impregnated every year, their babies are taken away from them, and after 5-7 years of being treated as a machine, they are brutally murdered. The baby cows are either killed for veal, raised and killed for beef, or endure the same fate as their mothers.
In the egg industry, male chicks are killed the day they are born, usually by funneling them into a big macerator. The female chicks have their toes and beaks mutilated and spend their very short lives either crammed in a cage or crammed together in a barn. These hens are also murdered in a few short years at best.
I think the idea is that "humane" farms don't (or supposedly don't) cram animals into cages.
However, more humane = more expensive. I think the incentives lie in seeming like you're giving a chicken a happy life rather than actually giving it a happy life. It's hard to do that on a massive scale, especially if you need them to lay enough eggs to give you a profit.
I'm a lot less skeptical of, for example, a single family that raises a few chickens and uses their eggs.
Your representation of the dairy industry is extremely generalized and assumes that all farms operate the same. My uncle ran a dairy farm where all the cows were bull bred, and after giving birth they were moved to the non-bull pen. They are also let out to pasture for a majority of the day. After birth they were given about 90 days or more to recover and insure there was no post-birth problems, depending on the heifer, and then moved back in with the bull to breed. Many don't get pregnant right away, usually on their second or third heat post pregnancy. Older cows aren't bred past their prime and are left to pasture until they are sold to the beef supply. My uncle used to do his own slaughtering for some time and I've seen it done. A quick bolt to the brain and they are dead. They were never "brutally murdered" like you said. It's not like they are torn apart and eaten alive by lions like a water buffalo in the Sarengeti. Most places in the US prefer this method because it's relatively quick, clean, and easy. You don't want a dying cow flailing around and spraying blood about. It also scares the other cows and makes the process for them and the handlers far more difficult.
I know another farm that raises and produces chickens and eggs. Due to laws were I live, chicken farmers are not allowed to keep chickens densely packed in cages. They do trim only a tiny bit of the very sharp tip of the beak at no later than 10 days of age; they aren't completely debeaked, as you were alluding to. This is to keep larger flocks from cannibalizing each other. Oddly enough, cannibalization is far more frequent in non-caged than caged, but the farm I know keeps the chickens out in the yard for almost the entire day. Cocks (aka roosters) are often raised separately and are sold to other chicken farms for breeding purposes or sold into the meat supply. The way they are slaughtered is also very quick and relatively painless for them as well as they are beheaded below the lower brain stem which is necessary since on a chicken their central nervous system extends far down the neck.
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99%. You just made that up
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Huff Post, as we all are aware, is a clearly non-biased source very reliable for neutral facts with no form of agenda with the content they present.
This didn't rebut anything the parent comment said.
The way he made his statement made it sound like all cattle and every egg bearing chicken is brutalized and mutilated. This is not the case.
You didn't like their word choice. Neither did I. They still didn't say anything factually incorrect or overly general. They stated standard practices, which weren't rebutted anywhere, with flamboyant words.
Never say never! Plants have feeling too my friend.
No they don't. They react to stimuli. There is no consciousness involved whatsoever.
Besides, even if plants could feel pain, it would still be more efficient to avoid animal products since animals need to eat lots of plants just to maintain their bodily functions.
You don't know that. And the second part makes very little sense but we can both agree that plants take the sun calories more efficiently
I guess I don't know but I'm 99.9% sure of it. Plants don't have a brain or a nervous system. How else would they be able to experience their existence in a conscious way?
Allow me to reword the second part:
The fact is that there is a huge amount of plants that are needed to "produce" meat. This is because non-human animals need to eat a lot of plants to survive. Now, most of the calories that animals obtain from these plants go toward maintaining their regular bodily functions. By the time they are killed, only a fraction the calories that the animal has eaten over it's (short) lifetime actually remain in its flesh. The rest of the calories are effectively lost. Hence, we could use a lot less plants to feed ourselves if we ate them directly instead of filtering them through an animal's body.
The issue is that "doing good" seems to be always accompanied by giving up a bit of comfort or luxury, which people will be very reluctant to give up, especially those who've already tasted it.
People won't act unless things are directly impacting them in a way they see and feel and most importantly BELIEVE. That's why I have little hope on the change coming from people before it's too late.
Couldn't agree more. There's also the issue of people thinking that "one person won't make a difference" so why bother.
Do you read Slate Star Codex?
Goddamnit egglands best! False advertising! Lies! My breakfast is ruined!
If you want to truly eat your breakfast cruelty-free, look into not just how the chickens are kept, but what happened to their brothers when they were born.
Until you actually click on Egglands and see that there is no information for them on that site, so they automatically get thrown into the "1 egg" rating.
Are you trying to say that there's still hope?
No there is not, there's a reason eggland doesn't give you any information, and it's because it's worse than anything you could possibly imagine.
Source: used to lay eggs for egglands best
Ah hahaha. "These Came First Eggs". I'd buy those for life.
Give well is the shit. Everyone should read ‘the life you can save’
These all sound like industry created institutions with the sole purpose of driving consumers to their products under the guise of being better people.
Thank you
Saving
a good definition of ration is "trying to prove yourself wrong" Actually, a better definition of ration is "a fixed amount of a commodity officially allowed to each person during a time of shortage, as in wartime."
The real Ethical Consumer: Consume less, and for what you do still need to consume, get second hand or local.
That second part is sorta not helpful. A secondhand appliance older than 10 years is going to be a lot less energy efficient than newer models (like half as efficient, so using twice as much power as something newer). Also, it's kinda great to find an appliance manufacturer (LG, and I think Whirlpool) that sometimes source raw materials from recycled appliances.
I used to think this too but I've started questioning it lately. A good example is washing machines. We used to have a top loader form the 90's. It was great, cleaned really well, no issues of any kind. But we moved and the new place came with a new front loader. So now it uses less water and less energy, but, the load takes almost 3 times longer and I have to double wash 1-2 items from each load. So is this really a savings? To add to that, planned obsolescence is a significant factor as well. I have trouble believing that the machine we have now will last 20-40 years like older ones did. So is that really more efficient if a new machine is needed every 10 to 15 years? It doesn't seem like it.
So now it uses less water and less energy, but, the load takes almost 3 times longer and I have to double wash 1-2 items from each load.
I don't mean to be "mean" but maybe you bought a newer machine that just sucks. Samsung are notoriously overpriced, for about 70% of their cost you can get an LG that does better and uses less power. You may also want to mess with the settings... newer machines have a lot of options. Might want to consider changing up your detergent too, liquid detergents are slightly better for your clothes.
Planned obsolescence is a myth in consumer products. The last thing any engineer wants to do is built in a critical failure to a system expected to function under use. It's a recipe for disaster. What you will see is specific parts of machines that wear and will not be functional indefinitely. That's not planned, it's practicality in parts sourcing. There's a idea at work in consumer products development... any part could be manufactured to last forever, but then it won't be affordable. I think most manufacturers get the balance right, well, the good ones do anyway. The ones that don't... make overpriced things, and go bust... or they make things that go bust and create the PO myth.
If you bought an LG/Whirlpool today, it should last until 2038, easily. But there are limits to any machine, use/overuse will shorten that lifespan. Environmental factors, power surges, improper use, etc will also affect the machine's lifespan. Most people in affluent lifestyles shower daily and wash clothes after each time they wear them... that's overuse. Cutting back on that will increase your clothes lifespan as well as your washer/dryer. If you need a stronger washer, they do sell those too.
I actually have an LG. I have gone through all the settings and researched the recommended ones for different types of loads. I have tried 6 different detergents with this machine.
Planned obsolescence isn't a myth, but it is often misunderstood. Simple things like smaller welds (this is just one example) using less solder make connections break sooner and are often very difficult to repair without taking an entire machine apart and most people aren't able to do that. In talking to repairmen they have stated this and many other issues repeatedly for what they are called out to repair. In many cases people don't bother having them actually come out to do the repair because the cost for their labour is too high compared to the cost of new machines (not just washers but smaller items like blenders, microwaves, etc. as well).
I don't shower daily, nor do I wash clothes after each use (except socks and underwear). IMO that is ridiculously wasteful and unnecessarily wears your clothes.
Well, I could keep guessing, but maybe talk to LG, they're pretty great if your machine is under warranty.
Knowmore.org was such a great tool for this before it bottomed out
if you care enough to actually try to reduce your carbon foot print, you're probably a good person.
Also for those that love seafood. There's an app called the msc good fish guide. It's traffic light rated all the fish. Red - don't eat it, it's endangered/plummeting stock. Orange - eat occasionally Green - there's loads of it, eat it whenever.
If we all stopped eating fish with plummeting stock we could make a massive difference to their wild populations.
I’m more concerned with the rampant human slavery involved in the seafood industry. Does the app cover that as well?
I mean that's an issue across all food production. Hell, production of anything. If you figure out a way to combat that, let us know.
I'll still be eating, and using the app to choose my fish.
Try to take small steps to be a better person. Let people merge in traffic if it's safe to do so (huge problem where I live) Let people who have much less than you go first on line at the store. Put the shopping cart back. Don't litter. Hold doors for people. Use your manners. Compliment people. Think about things from other's perspectives.
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism >.>
Is there something like this for the U$?
I'm not sure. I'll take a look into it for you and let you know if I find something.
So I looked into this a bit and there's an app called "Good On You" that you can use in the US. Not sure how good it is but give it a go.
Sadly it's only fashion. Thank you though, much appreciated
There is no ethical consumption in our society.
The only ethical form of consumption is eating ass - Karl Marx
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
I think it’s more ‘don’t individualize guilt and responsibility for systemic problems. Things like littering and pollution will never stop because people just give them up - we need regulation. And I think there really is a trade off on where people put their energy and focus.
Yeah but some things are more ethical than others. If one product is a 2/10 on the ethical scale and another product is a 6/10 on the ethical scale, surely the 6/10 product is what we should be buying?
Surely, as long as you consider (when it makes sense to consider these options) second hand as 8/10 and not getting anything a 10/10
Yeah admittedly I'm not a massive fan of materialism or consumerism or whatever we want to call it, so I'd agree with you that simply refraining from buying needless things is the best way to go.
I completely agree, but personally it was the process of trying to educate myself enough to be an ethical consumer that made me realize this. It's neoliberalism gilded with a thin layer of progressivism, but I believe many will find its inherent contradictions apparent if they're genuinely interested in being an "ethical consumer."
You have to pay for access??
Yeah, seems unethical.
Yeah. Screw that.
Neat, thanks for the reference!
Thank you for this.
Yes! This! Hold companies accountable for their shit!
Wow, thank you so much! The other day I was self-brainstorming resources I could use to make more ethical daily decisions, and had no clue this existed.
The latest magazine has a plus and it says "are your binoculars wildlife friendly?"
...how can binoculars not be wildlife friendly?
Ty
Thanks, gonna bookmark all of these websites.
I've been trying to make ethical choices in many areas of my life for years. Buying Fair trade, only flying sporadically, ethical investments, organic food and so on.
I try to tell myself that it made a dent but I can't be sure. Should've probably done some direct sponsorship of some kid somewhere or something...
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Only less unethical.
Also, [http://www.leapingbunny.org] (http://www.leapingbunny.org) for cruelty-free products, not tested on animals.
There's a wonderful group called the Food Empowerment Project which does the groundwork to investigate chocolate and coffee producers (among other things) to collect information on which ones are and aren't using child slavery, and maintains a list of recommended producers which they believe to grow and harvest their crops using ethical practices.
The majority of people don’t understand that their buying power states their ethics for them, whether or not they agree with it. Sure, no one would SAY they’re okay with unethical labor but why buy that T-shirt for $80-$100 when you can get a lower quality shirt that’s almost the same for $15? It’s a very hard thing because you can find ethical issues in almost anything you purchase. I think it’s important to start small with your buying power by finding one area of a market you spend expendable income on and try to buy more ethically. For me it was cutting out fast fashion companies like H&M.
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
I believe that there is. We are all consumers in some way or another, we all have to eat right? Would you rather buy food from a huge company that underpays the farmers who supply them and don't treat their staff well, or would you rather pay maybe a little more to get it from a local source that treats it's staff and suply line well. It only takes small choices like this to make consumption more ethical.
There is no consumption under communism because there are 2 loaves of bread that cost 300.000.000 and the line to buy them has 200 people.
Whatever you have to tell yourself to continue believing that neoliberalism is good.
It’s not perfect, but it is better than the alternatives I’ve seen presented.
But keep enjoying your capitalist video games that you’re playing on your capitalist made computer while telling everyone else how unethical capitalism is 👌
Darn it requires a paid subscription to view the details
Buy organic.
There's no ethical consumption under capitalism
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It's not a scam, they are a company not a charity so have to pay the staff somehow right? Here's a link to some more info on them if you're interested. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_Consumer
If any of these suppliers or companies are involved with Israel then this magazine is a fucking joke lmao
like going vegan?
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And if you see someone else being rude, say something. If you don't feel comfortable calling out the asshole, privately say something to the employee. A "sorry that guy was a total dick. You don't deserve that" could keep it from ruining someone's day.
I used to work in tourism/retail management, and occasionally I'd have customers ask to speak to me because they heard some irate jackass yell "I want to speak to a manager!" and they wanted to stick up for the employee in question. Not cause a scene or anything, just quietly say "I know somebody complained about the girl on the register, and I don't want her to get in trouble. That guy was an unreasonable ass. She was fine."
Wherever those people are today, I hope they're having a nice day.
I find myself getting a lot more vocal and confrontational with rude people the older I get but at a bare minimum, I try to get the employee to crack a smile after an encounter like that. Something like "Jeez, somebody sure could use a bottle and a nap."
Also talk to their boss about what a great job the employee was doing dealing with Shit for Brains so when Shit For Brains writes a lying review they're covered.
I'm not apologising for someone else's poor behavior. Instead I'll take the opportunity to be their (employee) reason to smile. I'll be quite the contrast.
I've had a cashier tell me that me saying "Jesus Christ that guy was a prick" was the highlight of his day. What a shit job :(
Also, take the 2 minutes it takes to let an employer know if an employee did a really great job. I use to work at a high end grocery store, and this couple came in looking for a specific bottle of wine. I didn't have it, but was able to recommend a similar bottle, and why it was similar (grape type, region, price). It was, at most, a 5 minute conversation. They emailed my company to let them know how happy they were with the interaction, and the bottle of wine. I ended up getting a $10 gift card, which paid for my lunch twice that week. It totally made my week.
Publix notes a customer compliment on the employee's record and gives them free lunch for the day when they get a compliment. I always try to tell the manager if I get decent service (which I normally do at publix).
That's a great idea. Never crossed my mind to do that.
Plus it puts that employee in good favor with their supervisors, which in the long run is worth way more than a small tip.
I was at a Subway and there was line up of 7 people. I go to that subway fairly often because it's close to work and I've never seen it that busy. There was one guy working and he was busting his ass. Going as fast as he could. He said something to the other employee who was in the back...on break. Yeah I get it. Everyone gets a break but be a team player and if it's unusually busy, come out and fuckin give the guy a hand. This one guy was making subs and cashing people out all at the same time. I got my sub and was paying for it and this guy is frantically trying to put someone else's sub in the toaster, takes his gloves off, cash me out and he says "I'm really sorry for the wait" I said "hey man, don't worry about it, you're doin you're best" I saw a business card with the managers name at the register that said you could email any comments or complaints. So I did. I emailed the manager and told her how awesome this particular "sandwich artist" was and she replied that she is aware that he's a rock star and can anyways count on him to be on the busy shift and passed my kind comments on to him and he really appreciated it. I'm sure it made his day to be recognized by a customer. I think people should do that more.
Shit I need to take notes
This was so lovely to read...well done!!
In the bleak world of customer service, it really is the little things.
Whenever I get great service I always speak to a manager to say so but then leave, worried that the manager is an ass hole who doesn't care.
Just make sure you dont do this if the employee did something like giving you an extra sandwich free, or cashing you out when you were 80 cents short, or anything that could technically be breaking their rules. You could end up getting them in trouble if their boss starts asking why they were giving out free products or whatever
I think we're trending towards a generation that treats retail/service workers with respect. I, and most 20 and 30-somethings that I know, have worked retail at some point in their lives and know how much it sucks and how dehumanizing it can be. I no longer work in retail, but you bet your ass that I am and will always be as kind and polite to retail/service workers as I possibly can.
I hope you're right, but I thought the same thing around 25 years ago when us GenX'ers were the primary fodder for retail hell. Generally my personal creedo is "Never be the worst part of someone's day" so I try to always be nice to anyone that's helping me in a store (or at least not a jerk if I can't manage nice), but it seems like a lot of people my age either forgot what it was like being on that side of the counter or they figure they went through being treated like crap and now it's their turn to do unto others as was done to them. I find that frustrating :(
I think I'm going to have to borrow that credo...
Flip it on its head: “Always be the brightest part of someone’s day.”
I hope my smiling and being mannerly isn’t the nicest thing that will happen to them that day, but I guess you never know!
"Always be the brightest part of someone's day" is my personal motto. It's how I live. I get so much pleasure from going the extra inch (or mile!) and knowing that, at least in my mind, my day would have been made better by whatever I just did, if it were the other way around.
Think of other people as other selves. Even if you don't believe in reincarnation, try to imagine that, in some dimension, at some point, you will live the life of the person that you are looking at right now.
It does wonders for empathy.
Yeah, that’s a little too positive for me. I’m a low achieving sort. As long as I’m not the worst part of your day, I think we are good.
Can I get a discount on this credo? I spend a lot of money here.
Creedo shot first
Me too.
Adding to this, unless someone spits in my food, I don't complain about crummy service but I ALWAYS write letters/email when I have great service. Dealing with the public all day is tough. The people who do it well deserve an extra Kudos
Seriously this usually means a lot to employees and the managers that control their wages, you're a good person for doing this (:
I worked for Bubba Gumps years ago and was told that about 7% of satisfied customers will send a compliment but most of the time people with a gripe are the ones who complain about fine to mediocre service.. 7% that's a sad amount of compliments! Give credit to those who work their asses off!
I love asking to talk to a manager & you can always see they get a bit worried & then I complement them to the manager. I make a point of doing this because great service deserves to be noted!
I'm way too socially awkward to speak directly to a manager ;-)
Surveys are usually way more important than we think I've noticed.
Multiple places I've worked take the surveys sent out pretty seriously and could affect whether or not your employed depending on the results.
Also, almost anything below perfect is considered a fail in most places I'd assume. If there's a scale 1-10, 9-10 are probably the only "passing scores" and anything below would be a DSAT and show as a negative on the employee.
I suppose it also does depend on how the company looks at these surveys, if they are based on the employees performance or the company in general.
This is true!! My last retail job took those very seriously and always let people know if they we're mentioned in the survey
This is the nicest thing I’ve read all day. It’s so easy to complain about the bad stuff and ignore the good. Compliments are so rare. Thank you!
Nobody will spit in your food. In the UK at least, if you get caught flouting the food hygiene laws, it's YOU they come down on. Your employer won't take the heat, it's the employee who'll get fined or whatever. Nobody's gonna bother spitting in anyone's food when there are plenty of ways they can get revenge without endangering anyone lmao. My favourite is the one horrendously rude lady I get who always demands tea. I pour her hot water and then add a tea bag because I'm a monster :P
Isn't that how you're supposed to make tea?
If you pour hot water onto the tea bag, it steeps a lot quicker than if you pour water and then put the tea bag in. It's just a tiny act of inconvenience that doesn't harm anyone but means they have to stand there for a minute swishing their teabag about lmao.
I love the sheer "Britishness" of this piece of knowledge haha.
Ah, Til, thanks Brit brother.
Whoa there, Satan.
I worked retail for three years. I definitely had my difficult customers, but the worst one, I was still perfectly polite as I informed her that I was calling the police to remove her from the premises. I was even polite when she started knocking over our jewelry displays and trying to smash our crystal case.
Funny enough, when someone is angry and can't control themselves, being calm in response drives them even more batshit. It's the best way to make sure nobody accuses you of being the bad guy, even if they witness it from a distance.
I got a positive customer write up one day. I was rekeying an older gentleman’s lock sets and just chatting as I did it. While I had a couple deadbolts left, he said, “You’ve just been so helpful, I’m going to write up a survey right now!”
“Thank you” I said, “that’s much appreciated.”
And he did, as I finished up, he was typing away at his phone, until he gave a final, “aaaaand done!”
He went on his way and I looked forward to seeing my review in the store email the following morning.
The next day comes along and the manger sends an email. Amongst other things there was this:
“We got a VERY happy customer yesterday who gave someone a top rating:
I was in here to get some things and an associate -I didn’t catch his name- was incredibly helpful and talked with me the whole time he worked on my stuff. Very pleasant.
Great job folks,
-Boss”
We wear name tags.
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My guess would be that the worst people we'll have for a long time are the Boomers. As a cohort. I'm nut saying every Boomer is a terrible human being but the proportion is high.
My worst customers in retail were white baby boomers.
However, My favorite individual customer was a white baby boomer named Hillary who was nice as heck and knew every employee’s name in the store. She was very unusual. Wonderful woman.
Gen Xers were usually okay unless they were hotshot marijuana entrepreneurs (douchebags). Although I had a few older ones pull shit like dragging their kid over, pointing at me, and telling their kids they had to work hard so they didn’t end up like me. Had another Gen X dad try to leave his kid with me, just because, uh, I’m a woman, I guess? I was very busy and told him off.
Most of the shoplifters we noticed were millennials. We had a couple uppity kids (like, actual children, so it was actually kind of funny) but other than that, no issues.
Actual children aren't millenials now
This was a few years ago, but you’re right, many of them were likely older Gen Z.
“Never be the worst part of someone’s day”. I LOVE that!
the rudest demographic, in my anecdotal retail experience, is 50+. the same generation that stressed how important being respectful was when i was growing up.
I work in a nursing/rehab facility. I try to be the best part of everyone's day. I feel morally obligated to do so.
Maybe the US has just become less divisive with gen Xers. Internet, games, etc. Once upon a time, a poor family would have been watching black and white tv, while the middle class and rich would be watching color tv. Essentially, there was a big divide in how we lived our lives and what we could experience.
Now, as was shown in /r/NBA, Ben Simmons (multi millionnaire basketball star touted as the next great thing) is on twitch playing computer games [remotely] with Karl Anthony Towns (another multi millinonaire basketball star).
Essentially, we can see into each others lives much easier, can get similar entertainment etc. We realize we are all similar, hence making it harder to look down on someone because they make less.
they figure they went through being treated like crap and now it's their turn to do unto others as was done to them. I find that frustrating :(
This is pretty much why being in the military sucks for most people.
"It makes you stronger, being treated this way"
Yeah I don't believe that. I'll add that to the list of "reasons why I didn't go to basic despite the personal benefits"
I'm still in. I don't think it makes me stronger having been through it. If anything it's taught me how to cut through people's bullshit a little quicker.
I treat my troops with respect and they work their asses off for me. It's a good trade off.
Thank you for treating your troops with respect.
I should have been more clear, the "making you stronger" was directed toward the "treating your juniors like shit because that's how you were treated when you were in their position" thing. That's the portion of it that I don't believe would actually make you stronger.
Honestly I thinks it's more just entitlement. "Well I'm giving my money to you so I expect to be treated like a God."
That's a good mindset. The way you worded that sort of makes it seem less than it is though. Ask a retail employee, not being the worst part of a retail employees day is still setting the bar pretty low.
I'm hoping that part of what helps is that a bunch of us who're now 20-30ish are spending a bunch of time on social media, spreading memes about being kind to service workers.
He's right simply because more people need part time jobs these days and retail is almost always that niche. I worked 80% service jobs and most of my friends did similar or more. The harshest customers are 30 and over from my experiences. That's just what I've gained anyways.
Keep your mentality and hopefully you make positive change :)
"Never be the worst part of someone's day"
Good words to live by right here.
I have a very similar credo, that I never make anyone's day worse for having to interact with me if I can help it.
A lot of people say things like "I treat them like crap because I was treated like crap." I feel like my generation is going to do something similar.
“Never be the worst part of someone’s day”
That’s something I’m going to take to heart. Love it.
What about the people who answer with " I don't know I just work here"
Well said. I always try to bring a bit of sunshine into their lives. If I can get them to laugh, really laugh, and see a little light return to their eyes, then I know I've helped bring some positivity to the sucking black hole that is the retail mass soul murdering machine.
I, like many here, have been on the other side. I know that people have bad days, they forget make mistakes, hell they're only human. Just like me. I always do my best to be understanding.
Gone are the days of "the customer is always right", and rightfully so, because a lot of the time, they just aren't.
It’s also become more of a social taboo to be rude to service workers
While I am always polite for much the reasons you mention, I am finding it more and more difficult to tolerate the employees these days. More often than not many of them can't be bothered to put their phone away. They rarely have any idea about the products they sell to even be the slightest of help.
I worked for minimum wage and yet I still learned about the products we carried. I may not be an expert on them, but I knew enough to guide you in the right direction.
As someone on the gen x/ millennial cusp I have to say it's no surprise - gen x is a pretty angry generation in my experience and the idea that y'all might be a little grumpy later in life isn't outside the realm of plausibility
See. I'm generally with that mindset too, and as a whole am pretty understanding.
Thing is, if you are being an unhelpful retail drone that isn't doing their job at all or intentionally making my life harder because you had a shitty day, I'm more than willing to weaponize my knowledge of how retail works.
I'll look you in the eyes and say "help me, and this survey is all 10s with a glowing review and I'll use the member card. Don't and I'll intentionally skip the member card, and I'll leave straight 0s thall end up on the regional manager office and follow up with a call to corperate"
Gen Xers now think they are better than the people don't it now
In my first retail job, i was treated with so much more respect from 11-20 year olds than those who were 40+ years old. I hope that sticks
I'm only 19, but the amount of times I've been called "boy" by Boomers is fucking ridiculous. These are the exact same people that demand respect while also shitting on us and young people like us.
Well yes, they want respect in the way that a king has respect
"You have to respect me because I'm your elder, boy!"
Well, when they have shoes older than you...it kinda puts things into perspective...
lol u wut
A teenager IS a young pup...despite what the young pup might believe...
How funny that is, that a couple of 11-20 years old can show more respect than a 25 year adult, and they know the basics of Thank you, and please better than a grown adult. I've seen it way too much and sorta pisses me off when you don't say thank you or please to the person helping you out. Many time I see when someone goes like this
Employee: "Hi! :) welcome to Congress' Juice Bar how can I help you?"
Asswipe: "Yeah, Hi . let me have a large lemon drink"
Employee: "Alrighty, that is $5 dollars please, and here is your drink :) "
Asswipe: "okay" then fucking leaves, without a thank you or a please..
Hate people like this, they are not fucking robots so acknowledge them with a please and thank you they are doing YOU a service because your to fucking lazy to make your own damn Lemon drink!
I mean I know people act like this because of social anxiety. Honestly when I'm working a register idgaf if you say please and thank you just so long as you aren't trying to be aggressive
That sounds like a great transaction to me. Quick and easy.
When I worked at starbucks I just wanted people to order quickly, take their stuff, and leave, thanks or no thanks.
When I worked in fast food I loved customers like this, let me do other stuff faster.
It's the ones who get upset at something then act disproportionately rude to me after that I hate. (Ex, we didn't clean a table off fast enough during lunch rush, so customer decides to immediately start telling me how I'll never be anything more than a cashier, how my life is shit and I deserve to never be happy)
As long ad I'm not getting threatened or essentially told that I'm a lesser being I'm happy.
It's not a favor...theyre paying for a service to be performed!
The dry cleaners aren't washing my clothes as a nice gesture, as a personal favor to me, that I should thank them for. Its a business transaction!
It doesn't, the reason 40 year olds are assholes to retail workers and the like is because life has beaten the joy out of them.
Prolly cuz adults are fuckin broken lmao most of them just want to say something to make themselves feel good
I straight up told my mom and aunt one day 'customers in your age bracket are the biggest assholes I deal with. I know it's unfair to generalize, but I rarely have the same issues with people my own age.' We were at a Whole Foods doing some shopping when I told then this- when we were checking out my aunt asked the cashier if this was her experience as well and the cashier just started emphatically nodding her head.
A couple years after this realization my aunt told me she goes out of her way to ask retail/food service/other CS job holders how their day is going and has gotten better service because of it. What may have been common knowledge to me was mind blowing to her.
I feel like "mind-blowing" is such an accurate way to describe when people that age realize what gigantic cocksuckers they can be
I work at a library, so slightly different side of working with the public, and 90+% of my problems come from the 55 and older crowd. They can be nice, but their default (as a whole) seems to be demanding and unaware. The other day, I had 19(!!!) people stand there loudly talking on cell phones and occasionally lowering it so they could tell me what they needed. It was a record number, but good lord, I was over it. Also, don't snap your fingers at me when you're half a room away. Ugh.
Don’t snap at people in general, that’s fuckin dehumanizing and rude. I’m not your goddamn dog, say “excuse me” if you want my attention.
I'm a nurse and I once had a patient who, instead of using his call bell , would whistle like I was a dog. I refused to respond and when I had to go in and give him his medications anyway (purposely done about ten minutes after he gave up) I made it clear that I could hear him just fine but that I was not a dog and would not be responding to him when he whistled, so if he needed something when I wasn't there he should probably use the call bell and treat me like a human being. People yelling "nurse", "hey", or "you!" Is pretty common, but that was the only one that really took me completely aback.
What’s wrong with saying “hey” or “nurse?”
Nothing at all, depending on the patient. If they are confused, have dementia, or literally just about any excuse for not remembering or being able to use their call bell, I check in them more frequently, even if it is just walking by their room, and I fully expect them to tell random stuff out the door if they need help. Not a problem. No one is expected to perform outside of their abilities.
If you are alert and completely oriented and instead of using the call bell you decide to wait until you see an employee walking by your door and just start yelling, well that's a problem. Some patients get very demanding of any staff member they see and the fact is that unless that is your nurse or nursing assistant, they may not be able to help them. They have no idea if the patient is allowed to have a cup of ice water or get out of bed and walk to the bathroom, and they definitely don't know what medication they have for sleeping. So instead of using their call bell which will literally connect them directly to my phone where they can save themselves time by putting in their request, they divert another nurse who then has to find their primary nurse and ask about the request. Then they get pissy when their cup of water took 15 minutes because they have "been sitting here completely parched and I'm going to get dehydrated and it's going to be all your fault".
Another common one is someone who gets an answer from their nurse - for example, my reply to their request for their midnight snack is that I will get that as soon as I am done cleaning up their neighbor. They response because they know their call bell will just call me and get them the same response is to then start yelling "help!" at the top of their lungs, and when someone else replies give the same request because waiting 6 minutes for ice cream and graham crackers is unacceptable.
So it's really a case by case basis on the appropriateness of yelling random things out the door vs using the call bell. The man who whistled for me, though, was completely capable of using his call bell and had no earthly excuse for attempting to call me like a dog.
Edit: one more thing - if you are a patient who just yells out the door all the time, eventually you are the patient who is going to be ignored. It's kind of like the boy who cried wolf. If I have medications to give and room 12 has been yelling for me every 10 minutes for apple juice, I'm going to assume that room 12 is continuing to yell for apple juice, not that now he has to go to the bathroom. If you are ever in a hospital and the staff appears to be ignoring a patient who is yelling, I can just about guarantee that patient yells regardless of what the staff does, not just that they are being heartless.
Thanks for the excellent answer :). I’m a very polite guy and just wanted to be sure using the title “nurse” wasn’t a dick move in and of itself.
Not at all, although we usually write our names on the boards in the rooms and it's always appreciated to hear our names. :). Honestly, patients who are rude aren't known as such because of one thing, it's the way they act overall. As long as you aren't a complete jerk overall you're fine!
My mother's in rehab now, heading for a nursing home (once medicaid is squared away, ay caramba.....)
Her memory is excellent, mind mostly there, but she often complains about the desk not answering the bell (shutting it off even) or sitting in her chair for 12 hrs (most recent complaint.)
Honestly not sure how much of this is legitimate, how much is neglect, or how much is her being demanding (which she is with her immediate family.) Would the staff be up-front about her personality if I ask? Hope they would be honest with her at least.
It depends on the facility, to be honest. I wish I could speak for every nurse. I know if I have family that admits that she can be demanding with her family, I may answer using different words than a family who comes in demanding to know why we have been neglecting their dear mother. Rehabs and skilled nursing facilities are often also understaffed, which isn't her fault and isn't an excuse, but there is a difference between someone who calls because they have been incontinent being left in their chair and someone who wanted to move back and forth from their chair to their bed 9 times yesterday being left there.
12 hours is long in my opinion to be in one chair, but most rehabs won't allow patients to go to bed during the day like a hospital will. She should be doing rehab during that time (since that's why she is there), but if she just means that they made her stay out of bed for 12 hours that's normal and part of recovery. If she was sitting in soiled linens for 12 hours while being ignored that's a huge problem.
They also may be shutting off her bell if she calls for something but doesn't give them adequate time to fulfill that request. Again, if someone calls because they need to use the restroom and someone calls because they want their lunch tray cleared away, one person will be seen first. If you mom wants her tray moved and it takes them 20 minutes to get to it, but she calls 5 times, I think that's just normal prioritization of a few people taking care of many. Expecting things to happen at restaurant speed just isn't realistic when there are two assistants and one nurse taking care of 50 people.
That being said, there are some facilities that are excellent and some that I certainly wouldn't send my mom to. I would go and talk to the staff, spend a few hours there to get a feel, and look at the general look and vibe of the other patients. If there are patients sitting in the hallways soiled or smelly and miserable looking and staff always looks like they are an hour behind on their tasks, it may be an understaffed place full of burned out people. If people generally look comfortable and staff looks busy but are taking care of people, it's just rehab.
Thank you! I'm sure they're understaffed, or that people call in sick etc. I always remind my mother "this isn't the Hilton." She tends to be a fussbudget, but she's reasonable with other people from what I can tell. So it is hard to say what's going on. She mostly just wants to use the bathroom when she rings.
They also keep her in sight the entire day, due to her tendency to fall, which she hates but the family likes! :-p
Just ring the call bell that has been provided. There's already enough activity on a ward that won't be improved by one yelling like an asshole trying to summon a waiter. The call bell lets the unit know which bed the call came from.
Yep, and my name is not "Oi you!"
Ugh my fucking boss does this, while we are on the phone. Bite it, cranky old man.
I will go out of my way to ignore anyone who snaps at me to get my attention. It's incredibly rude and as others said dehumanizing.
I wonder if you could have a sign saying that you don't serve people on phone calls. I have seen that before, and it always makes me smile.
Fuck anyone who snaps at another human being. Anyone who does that at me gets the worst possible service I can give them
I work at a gas station currently, and worked as a server for several years. 20 and 30 somethings are typically the most polite and easy people to interact with. Elder people in general can be pretty grouchy, but by far my least favorite people to interact with are older (50+) men. They are the most entitled, complain more than anyone else, and can be extremely rude and demeaning. At least 95% of the encounters where I've been physically touched or been just generally perved on has been from a grey-haired man.
But on the flip-side, 20-30 somethings are the nicest and most polite customers, and most importantly, they go with the flow. "Damn, all out of 100s in the cigarettes I want? Guess I'll get shorts." "This coupon I have is expired, but would you still accept it? No? Alright that's not a problem, have a great day!" Being able to accept that sometimes shit goes wrong and there is nothing I can do about it is something a lot more young people seem to do, or at least in my experience.
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Dress code where I work is casual, so I frequently go to stores on my way home wearing khakis and polos. It is about a 50% chance that an older person asks me for help. They don't even bother to ask if I work there. They don't even say hello. They just assume I'm going to stop whatever I'm doing and help them.
Yeah I think you’re right - most people I know at my age (24) know how completely and utterly shitty it can be dealing with the public everyday. People - PLEASE be nice to staff. The girl at the till has literally no control over the price of your chips/earrings/tickets and if you shout at her about it she’ll either cry in the staff room because someone was so unreasonably rude to her or you will go down in her history as the jackass who didn’t understand the concept of company hierarchy.
On that point, tills are confusing as hell to learn these days. I’ve done two shifts at the Golden Arches. (side note: 40+ yr olds assume I have to work there because I’m a slacker or I’m stupid. And are therefore super condescending.) Tills aren’t that intuitive to start out. There’s different buttons for drinks depending if they’re in a meal or not! And the older crowd as a whole tend to sit there umming and ahhing at the counter and changing their minds after I’ve plugged orders in. At my shop I need a manager to validate anymore than one change. Whereas people about <25 yrs stand back until they’ve decided before heading to the counter.
Dear 35+yr olds,
I’m not stupid, this is my first week of my first job, I’m just learning. Don’t make this any harder on me than it already is.
Sincerely, People who are starting in retail
Seriously! At least a dozen times a day I have to stop the customer mid-sentence and say "hold on let me get my manager" because they changed their minds about something they're ordering.
I've been here for years and I still have to deal with this shit from indecisive fucks.
I, and most 20 and 30-somethings that I know, have worked retail at some point in their lives
I think it's less this, because most of my parent's generation had also worked shitty jobs at "some point".
I think the real difference is that they grew up when working retail made enough money to get you an apartment and put you through college. They could assume that anyone working retail was either young and therefore temporarily there or a burnout and therefore deserving of whatever fate.
Our generation is more understanding of the crapshoot that is life and employment. Our collective faith in the meritocracy is shaken, if not broken, while our parents were conditioned to believe that hard work and moxy actually unshakable assets that always worked. I mean, my dad was paid for three months to basically crosstrain into a different field after answering a fucking classified ad. Then he had that job for over 40 years... The land of Oz does not exist anymore.
I've never worked in one, but I always try to say "hello" "thanks" "bye" and "have a nice day" to the deliver guys, bus drivers, barista, etc
I would agree with that statement. I work in retail banking and in general, those under 35 are the most respectful to deal with. Frequently, people under 21 are even more respectful, especially if they don't have a clue what they are doing. I really dislike dealing with older people because they can be super rude.
I have a pessimistic suspicion that this is because a larger and larger proportion of society is now or will be at some point in the future in the service industry.
Most of the boomers and many of the Gen-Xers never needed to work in crappy service industry jobs and looked down on them. Since then, most of the newer generation has had to endure working at a crappy restaurant or retail or something, for some period of time. Working in a movie theater and other odd crappy jobs while I was in school (and after) gave me a lot of perspective.
You'd think. But kids learn from their parents. I get shitty kids too.
Can confirm. Almost all my friends have worked in either retail or food service at some point, and all treat them well. My wife currently works in retail and says that without a doubt, the worst offenders are 50+ housewives. Specifically those that come in mid-week mornings and get very irate when they don't have a certain product. My wife doesn't work at corporate and doesn't decide which products the store carries, don't take your anger out on her!
I’ve never worked retail (and probably never will). I also don’t really care how shitty it is - I’m going to be polite and tell them to have a good day because they’re still people and there’s no reason to treat anyone like shit - retail worker, dentist, cleaning staff or whatever.
If it makes you feel better (it probably won't) each generation is fairly polite to retail/service workers when they are young. They get crotchety as they get older. Turns out, it's an age thing, not a generational thing.
The reason being we're trending towards a generation where almost everyone has a job in retail at some point. It's an easy entry job for young adults and teens, a fallback for adults, and something to pass the time for seniors still in the workforce.
I always hear this on reddit but I only have ever seen people being very polite to retail workers. Not sure if this is based on the part of the country (I live in a fairly well-off part of NJ)
IDK but the more southern you get the ruder people get, especially minimum wage type jobs. Visited Alabama in October for a wedding, every fast food place greeted me with: no eye contact, and a "What you want."
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Why do you assume if a black person is in a bad mood it automatically has to deal with racial oppression? They are fucking people, man, not an embodiment of BLM
But they're different. How am I supposed to empathize with another race?
You're wrong and I'll tell you why.
The vast majority of retailers hell is completely separate from the vast majority of the customers.
If you actually zoom in on the ones that cause the issue they come in ~3 groups.
1.)The ultra rich, I "earned" my right to lay into you. I can do what I want. I "own" you. These people "believe" (key word) that they make enough money that they can do what they want. Some legitimately do, some just live in a world where they can pretend they do. These are a very small portion of customers.
2.)The equally had a bad day and somebody else pissed me off crowd and I'm paying it forward. Vast majority of people.
3.)Criminal/underclass folks. These are the "failed the sneak" roll and now are attempting the "intimidation/persuasion" roll folks.
Sadly I doubt that's true. I work on the same site as our company's biggest call center, and despite the fact they're on the receiving end of any shitty people who call in, many are still shitty people themselves.
Some people will just always be shitty no matter what happens.
Call centers are a little different because you tend to deal with people who are calling to get something fixed and are frustrated.
It also doesn't help when you have call metrics so "hang up and reboot" is actually a good strategy to not get written up while holding their hand for twenty minutes works against you.
I used to think this and then I started doing food service on a campus. There are a handful of people a day who treat us like human beings, the majority won't even look at us or speak to us.
I'm a cashier right now, and this is true. I'm required to ask how they're doing and wish them a nice day, and some people just don't respond when I talk to them, and I've noticed that it's mostly baby boomers and a bit younger that do that. Most people 30 and under are very nice and at the very least give me a "good, you?".
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Right, because all people growing up in the 60's were hippies and all old people are racist.
I have worked retail, waited tables, delivered pizzas, sold shoes and more. You are right, being polite goes far. You get way way better service in most instances.
I worked at an inbound call center for a month doing tech support. Totally changed the way I handle all phone calls knowing what hell those people go through.
Remember that security guards and bouncers are also in a service industry too! We eat shit daily, and we're often in a position where we can't do anything without losing our jobs. Please stop shitting on us, folks!
Education these days is so expensive that pretty much everyone except the top 1-5% has a retail or customer service job at some point.
Probably because most people have to work at least one retail job to afford rent these days.
I feel like this is true. I remember working it as a teen and people were just super shitty a lot of the time. But now, as I’m approaching middle-age, I don’t see the same behaviors (ie, people chewing out cashiers over coupons or because their coffee was cold or what have you). In the few cases I’ve seen where a customer had a legitimate complaint, they were polite about it.
Like a time I was at Denny’s, and the people in the booth next to me asked, very politely, if the waitress could get their food remade because they’d asked for some particlar thing (some kind of topping, i forget what) to not be present, and the chef put it on there anyway. They were super nice about it, even though it probably was the waitress’ fault (she was like, day 2 or 3 new, which she mentioned when she served me).
I sure as hell never saw that kind if behavior when I worked as a waiter. I mean holy crap, I worked a shift once where one of the other waiters had to deal with some super-angry dude basically trying to get free food by eating half his chick breast and then complaining something about it to get a new one, and trying it three times in a row.
It's only dehumanizing if it's a one-way street, like if you have a shitty customer but are forced to grin and bare it. If you aren't required by management to be nice to asshole customers it isn't that bad.
I agree, most 20 and 30 somethings are super nice to me when im at work (in retail). They try to make conversation and apologize if they have to ask me something. If someone acts entitled and rude, it’s usually somebody from the 40-50-60 crowd.
I currently work retail and while some people around my age 20-30s can be spoiled brats, it is worse and more often from older generations. Just a bunch of salty old adults who treat people like shit if something doesn't go exactly thier way.
Exactly! Not only retail workers, but honestly any "blue-collar" workers too! People who work in these sorts of positions are often the ones that help society just function smoothly (e.g. janitors, maids, landscapers, cooks/servers, etc.). It's one thing to just avoid being an asshole to these people, but even being indifferent isn't great--we should go beyond that by actually being kind, thanking those people, and making them feel like we genuinely appreciate their efforts.
I'm loving the open mockery of people that don't. I remember watching my parents' generation be pretty open about making a fuss to get unreasonable requests fulfilled. Like the whole Bed Bath & Beyond return policy snafu. This is why we can't have nice things!
I think you're right, however we are also trending toward a generation of retail/service workers that are not going to treat us nearly as kindly as we previous workers treated the customers. I'll be very surprised if I get half the level of kindness or service I gave.
My mom was a waitress for a long time. She taught me to always be polite and kind to everyone and led by example. Now, in her 60s, she has zero patience and is often rude to service people. It makes me so sad.
Most of the nicest bar guests/best tippers are in their early 20s, in my experience. Still get some 21 year olds who are learning how to be in a bar but for the most part, it's how it is. Most of them have probably worked in the service industry/retail so they know how to act.
We were trying to catch the last train home after a night in Stockholm and got to the window and it was taking my phone a few minutes to load to get our tickets up to go through the gates down to the train. The cashier (it was 2 in the goddamned morning) said kinda sourly that we should step aside while my phone loaded so other people could go by. My jerkass boyfriend starts saying that he shouldn’t talk to customers like that bla bla bla and then the clerk says to us that if my bf keeps whining, we won’t be allowed through. I had to turn on the extra feminine charm to compensate for this idiot who has never been in that other dude’s position. Just...treat people right in the right situations. Don’t make every fucking thing about being right and wrong. Be a bro.
I work in retail and have had a handful of people around my age (22) complain over little bullshit. But with anybody over 40 I have several people a day
I've worked in retail and I know first-hand how many of the employees are barely even competent enough to manage the extremely simple tasks that they're assigned there. A given minimum-wage job will typically only have 10% of the staff that are capable of anything better.
But don't go too far: don't hit on service employees. Their economic livelihood depends on being nice to you, so they have to smile and put up with it, but most service workers I know (especially women, who get it worse) absolutely hate it.
The opposite goes as well. I've started using the self-service check out solely because it has better manners than some of the cashier's in my local shop
Agreed. I'm always polite and kind unless the person is being an asshole. But I get rude employees or those that treat me like I don't exist or am an inconvenience to them. Just because you hate your job doesn't make it OK to be an asshole to the customers. We didn't cause your bad day and I guarantee the vast majority of us have worked in the same or similar job before. I'm being kind, so it'd be nice to have kindness returned. Or at least a shred of decency. It's one of the reasons I'll write letters to managers/owners/executives when I encounter great service, especially at a place where most workers are assholes (ex: Walmart).
This whole idea that the older generations haven't worked retail and therefore don't understand is bunk. Most people have had to work with customers/clients in order to do their job. Retail work sucks, but trust me that many other jobs suck just as bad or much worse. At least in retail your work day ends when you clock out.
At the end of the day, none of us is so special we can't be civil to one another. It doesn't matter what your job is or isn't. Just be considerate.
Smiling and basic manners for employees in retail/service.
The American dream. I doubt you live in Germany.
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I read on Reddit that the interactions are stone cold between retail and customers. Culturally you'd be weird if you were smiling. Same with the situation in China, everyone expects the nonchalant "rudeness."
I don't think it's rudeness so much as less fake happiness. I've been on both sides of the counter in the US and I hate the "it's been a pleasure to serve you!" crap when you buy something when you know they're just paying the bills.
It's probably fake to say "it's been a pleasure to serve you!" but it shouldn't be fake to say "have a nice day!"
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I mean it's pretty neat in its own right, less energy spent going out and about.
That sounds much better to be honest. I've worked in retail for 4 years, I would much rather just be abrupt and straightforward with customers than pretend I'm so happy to see them and helping them pick out a shirt/shoe/pool chemical is the most special fun of my whole day.
The American culture is a very customer oriented culture. Everything is about maximizing profit, buy/sell, make your customer happy, etc.
I've been training my kid to say, "thank you for helping us!" to basically every single person who checks us out, serves us, or helps us in any way. I want him to understand that they DID help us do something that we truthfully could have done on our own, but chose not to because it wasn't convenient. I also want those people to know that we appreciate them.
Basically, I want him to know gratitude and not take anything for granted or look down on anyone, especially since I'm making him get a job at 16, and those are the jobs he'll be working.
Also, if you really do receive great service from someone, TELL THEIR MANAGER. Saying thank you and being genuinely grateful is wonderful, but telling an employee's manager or sending an email to corporate can really improve their lives. I try to make a point of doing this when I can so that they get the recognition they deserve. Also tipping. But that's a one-time thing. Giving someone a formal commendation could help them advance or maybe even receive more compensation come raise time.
I had a customer ask for my managers email so she could compliment me. She wrote my boss three paragraphs on how much she appreciated working with me. This was 6 months ago. I still read her email when I've had a bad day.
I got bitched at by a man because he had dropped his stuff on the counter and walked away, so I helped the next customer instead of waiting for him to come back. The line was three people deep. Also I had been petting a customer's dog when he came to the counter instead of instantly ready to help.
The woman who had been in line behind him called the store as soon as she left, demanded to speak to the manager, and told her in no uncertain terms that that man had been horrible to me and I had been completely in the right.
I always try to remember that customer service jobs just suck and people can be having bad days or just seem rude when they don't mean to be. I try to at least ask "how are you?" If I have enough time to. I've noticed at least once where my trying to be friendly has at least seemed to help a person feel a bit better. Most of us have been on both ends.
Also doing good makes you feel good and that's a good thing. There's no shame in it.
I remember being stuck in a drive thru at a McDonald's one night. It was taking FOREVER. Now, I had worked fast food for 6 years. I knew if you were down people, it got hella shitty in a dinner rush. I could hear the guy ahead of complaining loudly our his open window as we inched along.
So I get to the window, the poor girl is obviously frazzled. Everyone is rushing around inside. Nobody is slacking. She apologizes profusely, and I say what I wished people said to me on my dinner rushes. "Hey, it's ok. You're doing a great job. I'm alright, I get it. I've been there. You're good! I'm patient." The look on her face was worth the wait. "Thank you. Thank you so much." - Be kind, be understanding.
True, but fuck telemarketers.
You took that shitty job, you're calling me.
I will gently say no, but after the first no, if you keep insisting, I will treat you like a piece of shit.
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Yeah, but cross the line and they start spoofing YOUR number next time they want to scam someone. And then you get calls from random people saying they have a missed call from you.
I'm all for scambaiting, and do it myself, but don't do it to regular telemarketers selling a real service. Just say no and hang up.
Screw those guys.
That's not even telemarketing or cold calling, that's straight up scamming and they deserve every second of wasted time that we can afford to give them.
Pretend to be interested and then make up an excuse to put them on hold. Then just go do something else until they eventually hang up.
... do people not know how to hang a phone up anymore? Why treat them like shit?
I think hanging up without listening to someone or saying bye is rude and that's I consider treating someone like shit.
If you gave them "no" once, you listened, and you can say "bye" when you hang up. I consider treating them like shit to be verbally abusive behavior and the like, which I have witnessed people do.
Shit man no I would never do that.
My English isn't good, let's just say I'm rude to telemarketers. (if you have a better term for it?)
Fair enough. Yeah, I've just heard people talk about cussing them out and shit, and I figured that's what you meant by being shitty, lol. That (cussing out, etc) is the stuff I don't support. Being hung up on is part of their job, but being verbally abused shouldn't be a part of any job, and the policies that created that situation aren't their faults. Sounds like you and I are more on the same page than I thought
You could always hang up when they get pushy. Not like they want to ruin your day or anything.
Hey, have a nice day.
I work in the service/tourism industry. I can't tell you how it has changed my day when people are polite to me at work and treat me with respect.
Treat me how you would want someone to treat you if you worked my job. That's all I ask.
Get rid of the smiling part. Forcing people to smile is fucking ridiculous and this fake idea of everything's supposed to great all the time.
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Resting bitch face people disagree
Fully agreed. This is cultural stupidity. I'm there to buy something. They're there to help customers. That's all.
They shouldn't be expected to put on a happy face just to make me feel better.
I've don't think I've been helped beyond the barest minimum by someone without a friendly look on their face. I think it goes hand in hand in customer service jobs. Things don't have to be "great" for employees all the time, but I don't think it's outlandish to ask people to compartmentalize and not spill their moods onto you while working.
Spilling their moods? No one said that. If anyone wants to keep a straight face while working they should be able to do so without others stupidly calling them rude and unfriendly.
No one used that phrase, but you agreed with the assertion that if people want customer service workers to smile, they want people to be fake and pretend everything is great all the time. I'm saying things don't have to be great for people to smile, and that employees should be able to regulate their emotions well enough to be nice to customers even if things aren't great.
I'm saying things don't have to be great for people to smile, and that employees should be able to regulate their emotions well enough to be nice to customers even if things aren't great.
Well of course, everyone has to regulate their moods to a certain extent. We're dealing with people all the time at work or home.
What I'm saying is no one has to appear "friendly" or smile (which was the original thing being discussed) just for the sake of customer service. In many other countries, customer service people dont give a fuck because its not a cultural expectation there to smile at the customer - you know what I mean? They'll have a straight face and everyone there knows thats perfectly fine.
Why should anyone care if you arent being smiled at? Its a very juvenile requirement. Its also a local requirement only meaning its not universal and so its subject to change and debate.
I'm here to buy a pair of shoes. I'm not going to leave the mall feeling bad if the store clerk didnt smile at me. Its stupid.
Work retail, can confirm.
Simply understanding that they are not likely gaining or losing anything personally and are just trying to enforce company rules should get you really far. They are trying to do the least amount of work to keep their bosses happy. Find a way to make that work/win for both of you.
Have a nice day
I think we are on an upswing here. Boomers were shit to wait on in food service, but most of the 30< crowd were pleasant, patient, understanding, and recognized that I also was a human. :)
I seriously thought this was something everyone did all the time. I can't remember the last time I didn't say "have a good day/night" someone in service retail. It's reallllly not that hard.
I hate the expectation that service workers be cheerful all the time. It can be a pretty shitty job, why should I ask you to pretend to be cheerful when bagging my groceries? Also why do service workers have to stand all day? Even when there are no customers? I get that the customer has to stand but they are only there for a few minuets while the worker can be standing for 8hours at a time, that kind of shit can fuck up your back.
Smile at everyone. It makes a difference.
I've make a point of saying, "thanks, have a nice day." After every encounter with a service person of any kind (most typically store clerks). It's just a subconscious reaction at this point. I don't even think about it to the point that I regularly say, "have a nice day" at night. At first I tried to correct myself, but now I embrace it. If they try to correct me I will insist I meant "day".
I always treat retail workers with respect. I have noticed that it is not always mutual though. I've had grocery checkers not say one word to me through the entire check out.
Smiling should be optional. I'm there to buy something, they're not there to suck my dick, they're not my slaves.
I disagree. I prefer the honesty of grumpy service workers. You're doing a shitty job for shitty and ungrateful people, of course you're miserable. Putting on a fake smile at that point is just an insult.
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It's okay to be grumpy to all customers because some people are ungrateful to you?
My point is that you shouldn't be expected to act like a mood you're not in. I'd rather get a frown from the waiter than a fake smile.
I get that idea, but I think it's important to be able to regulate your emotions in the workplace. If someone cares enough to have a vaguely positive attitude, I'll feel more confident in the rest of the business, especially if there is food handling involved.
I went to a taco bell a bit back where the guy didn't make any eye contact with me, and didn't speak. Literally. I walked up and had to just start telling him what I wanted and guess at when it was time to pay. It was super uncomfortable and unnecessary.
Also I'm just pro ~good vibes~
This goes both ways. I’ve experienced many retail/cust service employees who treated me with zero respect. A lot of these people think they’re above working in customer service and therefore end up doing a pretty horrible job.
Hey man, on my end, sometimes a shitty day is made slightly better by telling a stranger that you appreciate them.
I try to at the bare minimum say something like “have a good one” even if I’m feeling like a pile of shit that day. It’s not the employees fault that I feel like a dump and don’t want to put it on them, but I also accept that when I feel like that it probably comes out sounding very insincere. But hey, at least I try.
Or any service job... today I was at the drs office and I cannot tell you how many times the staff said sorry for the wait there’s only 1 dr. They totally expected me to lose my mind (I also had my kiddos in tow) but how was me flipping out about being there almost 2 hours before my lab work going to make anyone’s day better when clearly it’s already going kinda shitty? I responded that it’s ok I get it can’t work any faster and the dr is thorough. I don’t want the dr to rush through nobody should. Jeez people just don’t have empathy anymore ?
Edit to add that people who treat food service workers like crap there’s a special place in hell for.
I constantly blow people's minds in retail and restaurants when they ask me how I am and I reply with something like "pretty good, how are you doing?" Especially when I actually listen to their answer.
I know they have to stay on script, but they're people too, take a second, and if the store/restaurant/whatever doesn't have what you want, it's almost certainly not their fault, null perspiration, maintain your chill.
Can't tell you how many times a shitty shift has been made slightly better by someone doing nothing but telling me to have a nice day after I've made them a drink.
It's the opposite for me. Whether people tell me to have a nice day, I can't help but feel like they're are being cynical. It's not just saying it, it's HOW they say it.
Also "im just looking" comes off rude most of the time. I just said hi and didn't try to sell you anything. Like idc if you buy something, im just required to greet everyone in my area. Saying hi or that you'll let me know if you need anything will suffice and comes off much kinder. Even adding something at the end of im just looking is much better.
This so much. The other day I had coffee at a non-commercial based coffee shop and having nice manners spreads like a virus.
When I worked fast food I often got put on drive-thru, because I've got a nice speaking voice (I now work on the phone >.>), and it astounded me how rare it was that people would use the simplest of manners.
It got to a point where I would consider someone an "above average" customer if they simply said please and/or thank you.
This goes both ways. I live in South Carolina currently, and I visited a friend in Myrtle Beach. We went to a deli that was supposed to be amazing. We get there and find out it’s owned by a couple from New Jersey, so I’m expecting the best sandwich ever. It was, but the treatment by the proprietors was jaw dropping. “Hey hurry up and order” “Yeah I don’t know what that is, what do you want?” “Come on move up” Having lived in the south for years, I was shell shocked. I don’t think they were trying to be rude, it’s just how they behave. Need more courtesy.
I was telling my brother the industry is just one big cycle of misery. Customers come in with Miserable attitudes that then make you feel miserable than others around you feel just as miserable and then sometimes you act miserable to customers and then it continues on after that.
Just a little bit of positivity or smile or even just being nice with manners makes all the difference to me, personally. I’ve had the best days were someone comes in and they’re just so nice!
Makes me feel good, and makes me appreciate kindness.
thank you for saying this. i’m 17, so all i can really do for work right now is retail/service type jobs. it make my life so much better and easier when customers are kind and understanding. it makes a huge difference, even though it may not seem like it. it’s also taught me to treat those workers well, because i know how it feels. so, be nice, people.
I go out of my way to be pleasant to retail workers, but what really bothers me is when they are kurt or rude back for no reason. You get a pass if it's super busy, but it costs nothing to smile.
This one time my boyfriend ordered Taco Bell, saying please and thank you, and the 16 year old girl working there cried and said he was the first person that day to talk to her like a human being. Jesus Christ.
on the flip side, I can't tell you how many times I've had my day made slightly better by someone in retail/service being nice at the checkout, making conversation or whatever. It's almost like if we're all nice to each other, we're better off. Hmm...
Smiling and basic manners ~~for employees in retail/service.~~
I work at Chipotle and I'm usually the first person you get to on the line. It's a high volume store and we get stuck in this loop of "white or brown? Black or pinto? White or brown? Black or pinto? White or brown? Black or pinto?"
It always catches me off guard and makes me smile when somebody gets to me and greets me and asks if I'm having a good day. It lets me come back down to earth for just a moment, even though there's been a line stretched out the door for the past two hours.
Yup, I worked retail for a number of years and it still makes me sad when I see some of my comrades still in the field seem surprised when I return basic niceties (ask how they're doing if they ask me, tell them to have a nice day, etc) because it's obvious they aren't used to hearing it. The fact that people have no trouble dehumanizing people they consider less than them for no reason is such a depressing reality about humanity.
Basic manners and kindness are great, but I object to the social expectation of smiling in general. As a person on the autism spectrum, if I am trying to smile, I'm a) forgetting about something else because smiling takes extra focus and b) creeping people out because I am incapable of an intentional smile that doesn't look like a murder clown. People are better off if I am not expected to smile. I'll still be as polite and pleasant, just please leave me with my flat voice and facial expression.
Looking them in the eye and being present and treating them like a human not a machine I think is the I appreciated the most when I did that type of job. Cashiering was especially exhausting that way. Be real and treat your grocery store people like people:)
Smiling and basic manners for ~~employees in retail/service~~ interacting with anyone you meet.
Can't hurt to have more of it everywhere you go.
This also worked for me with coworkers. Our supply room clerk lived a self-imposed hard life. Consequently she made everyone go through a lengthy bureaucratic procedure to get even a pencil. My branch, in another part of the building, told a corny joke of the day every day at our 9am stand up meeting. One day when I walked by the supply clerk's desk I told her the corny joke. She laughed and said "Oh my God." I think it was the first time I'd seen her laugh. So I started to do that a couple of times a week. What was fun for me is that when she laughed I got to see the "little girl" in her face. Eventually she would tell me she was going to the warehouse and did I need anything. I'd have her get me some sticky notes or tape or something and pick it up the next time I stopped by. Nothing to sign. No hassle. Just fun. I firmly believe I improved her life.
That's my litmus test for new people I meet.
If they treat a server or bartender like shit, I know they are an asshole (looking at you, COO of my company!)
Smiling and basic manners for employees in retail/service.
I don't see why that should be limited to retails sales people, we'd be better off if everyone was courteous all the time.
It always catches me off guard when a customer says "Have a nice day."
I'm like "Have-hey! You stole my line!"
I try to make eye contact with everyone and give a genuine "I really hope you have a great day". That little bit of human connection is good for both parties.
I honestly cannot fathom why people act so shitty towards anyone in retail/service. It's such an easy thing to be polite and courteous and you don't even have to be genuine about it but it can go a long way.
I know when I worked retail and a customer was an asshole about finding something guess who is going to wonder around the back aimlessly for awhile?
Shitty days happen, I get it, but it's such a stupidly easy thing to be nice about the situation or at least pretend to be nice for 2 seconds.
The lady who trained me to be a cashier changed my life. She told me she smiles and says have a great day to everyone, because you dont know what they are going through. But that one little thing can change someone’s day and it takes no effort on your part to do it. I smile and say have a great day a lot more even when I’m not at work.
Smiling and basic manners for EVERYBODY. Be as courteous to the person handing you your burrito as your are to your boss.
Yeah If I can tell you're having a bad day and things aren't going smooth, I like to emphasize how casual I am because there is nothing worse than serving a person who's in a rush or impatient. Everyone has something to say and a simple " how's your day going" shows you care and means a lot to someone getting emotionally shit on all day.
Smiling
Dont tell the Europeans that, they hate smiling over there.
I don't wanna be a downer, but I hate fake smiles. It was one of the things that made my US experience slightly worse. As a german I'm much less used to those fake smiles that you get in cafés and restaurants, because poor employees are extremely reliant on tips. It took me a while to realize that it is basically a mask people put on, and it really put me off.
Anyways, honest smiles are awesome! There are few things that brighten my day as much as an honest smile, even if it is because I slipped on a dog shit.
I make a point of wishing a good day/ evening to every cashier/waiter/etc. that helps me. I'm just trying to be nice/ polite, but I'm glad to hear that actually makes a difference to people.
On the flip side of this don't be a dick to a customer because a previous customer was a dick to you. I know retail is a pain in the ass but if you have a bad attitude so am i
Forced friendliness and fake smiles usually make me feel worse.
Have a nice day after I've made them a drink!
Or how one unruly customer ruins my whole day
What irks me the most about people looking down on those working retail/service jobs is that those same people are utilizing those services.
How the hell would you eat out if no one was waiting tables or cooking your food? Yet you look down on them?
Have a nice day, internet stranger!
Thank you so much for saying this! I work in retail and at times I feel so disconnected from reality when serving a constant queue of emotionally empty/complaining customers... But that one customer who smiles at me and says “thank you” whilst really meaning it really makes me feel the humanity again 😊 keeps me powering through the hours.
Man it’s the worst when some cute shorty pulls up and you have to stop yourself from preejacing in your pants when she says “have a nice day”
I've been trying to get into the habit of smiling at strangers. Makes them feel better, makes me feel better.
Don't be an asshole.
It sounds simple and it kind of is, and few people would admit like "yea, I'm kind of an asshole." But many more people than would admit it, are, or are at least acting like one for part of the day. It comes down to being nice and compromising your needs with those of all the people around you.
Driving - don't be an asshole. Don't ride bumpers, cut people off, or go under the speed limit in rush hour, ever. Stop texting while driving. And for the love of god if you're not the fastest one on the road MOVE TO THE RIGHT.
Shopping - don't be an asshole. Spatial awareness - don't leave your cart in the middle of everything. Don't act like the produce is a luggage carousel and get so close to it while you're thinking about what to get that no one else can get theirs, either. And be NICE to the employees. They're making $8 to $10 an hour, and do not have a direct line to the CEO unless you're shopping at Zappos. If you have a problem, find a manager or write to corporate later. Or just stop shopping there and go somewhere that bothers you less. This also applies to call centers.
Reduce waste - This is HUGE but it's a hard one for most people because the garbage gets carted away to places where most of us don't see it or smell it or have to deal with it ever again. But seriously, how much food and general junk do you throw away every week that was probably unnecessary? There's a thousand ways to reduce your carbon footprint. Try, if for nothing else but the planet your family lives on and your kids are going to have to deal with, if you have/will have them. There are no infinite resources on this planet. None.
Stop and THINK about what your actions will do to others. Is turning on the light and blender at 4 AM going to wake my spouse/roommates/kids? Is it that important I do this right now? If I call in sick today because I feel just a little crappy and 100% lazy, am I totally screwing over my work friends? Am I at least trying to pay people back in kind for what they do for me?
And if you're getting angry and about to be an asshole, ask yourself if this is worth the heartburn and the negative impression of others. 99% of the time it should be a "no," our day to day lives aren't very critical to anyone but ourselves. It's what you do over the long haul that really matters, and that's built on what you do day to day, bit by bit. If that's acting like an asshole, well...
This is great stuff. I hold the opinion that you can’t expect people to be nice, but you can at least ask that they aren’t an asshole. Don’t go out of your way to make someone’s life worse and you’re ok in my book.
You have to be an asshole on some things tho.
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I think a log of it stems from people forgetting that everyone is a persona and that even the people who we perceive as having the "power" in most situations (The cashier, the helpline person, the teacher, the principal, the county representative, the general manager) either actually hold very little of it, or they themselves are pretty much making it up as we go.
For all the training we each receive/get it's really all more like a guidebook for how to think and work. We still just make it up as we go along.
The person above you might be referring to people like government* representatives and people who hold lots and lots of power but who aren't actually doing their jobs of representing us and being decent humans. That is just about the one time I think it's OK to be a bit of an asshole and yell. When someone not doing their job is going to lead to direct negative or dangerous consequences for hundreds, thousands, or millions of people.
But, most of the time? Everyone is making it up and has very little power, so don't be an asshole.
I’m not saying be a over excessive asshole by any means but if you don’t you eventually start might be regarded as a pushover.
If you do everything people ask of you and then one time you say no people might think you are a asshole for saying no (because they expect you to do everything they ask) you have to be assertive sometimes in life. You might think being assertive and being an asshole are two different things but I like to think they are in the same vein.
Do you want some examples?
I agree with your point. I would only add that standing up for yourself and being assertive so as not to be a pushover doesn't necessarily make you an asshole. We can say no in a firm, but polite and respectful manner.
Be polite and respectful yes but if they still don’t get it then I think you are allowed to be a little rude.
Not at all. Simply say, "I am sorry you cannot see this from my perspective" then move on. Just because someone is being an asshole to you does not mean you have to react negatively.
Yes but sometimes you’re stuck with them and sometimes they wont stop until you make it absolutely clear that you don’t want to do that. I’m not saying go full blown asshole, but occasionally people won’t stop until you make them
I’m not saying be a over excessive asshole by any means but if you don’t you eventually start might be regarded as a pushover.
I dunno. There's a semi-famous book here in Sweden called "Konsten att vara snäll" (literally "The art of being nice"), wherein Einhorn, the author, postulates that allowing someone to walk over you is not being "too nice", because it encourages bad behaviour and a negative trend both in you and in them, and thus isn't very nice.
The basic premise of the entire book is "Always be nice; if you think you're being too nice, you're not actually being nice". Not sure if it's translated into other languages, but it's a short but great read.
TL;DR: You can't be "too nice". Being a pushover isn't nice, nor does the opposite have to mean being an asshole.
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No problem. I appreciate you being civil with me.
Well, sometimes you have to go out of your way to not be an asshole. Like I really don't want to wash my dishes but I'm an asshole if I make my housemates do it
If only telling an Asshole they are being an asshole actually worked. I work in sales, close encounters and old school with customers. It is my entire job to have beyond upstanding customer service. But I will be damned to allow someone to blatantly speak poorly towards me (too bad I can only do so much).
I encountered an extremely toxic woman one day. From the get go I was apparently absolute shit and knew fuck-all about my job or the products we had. I very calmly informed her that she was being very rude towards me and I didnt appreciate it.
This woman straight up looks at me and tells me to not be so sensitive and to get over it. Then demanded I continue to assist her and point out everything I did that she thought was stupid as I worked with her. I should have asked her to come back another time.
tl:dr - assholes will always be assholes.
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I used to be like this when I was like 18-20 something. Well it wasn’t so much that I was proud of it, but I thought being edgy and a dickhead was cool. Then one day I like suddenly felt so much guilt for everything shitty I had done, and since then I’ve been trying to be a better person. Sometimes I’m still shitty, but I’m trying not to be.
You were tripping that 'one day' weren't you?
No lie, I'm decently sure that experimenting with psychedelics made me a better, more considerate person. That first trip really led my mind to new, eye-opening places that made me realize how much of a dick I have been at times.
For sure. They tend to remove your id/ego/super ego (I think) and, essentially, temporarily force you to see reality from a new, unique perspective, which can certainly help you be more considerate in the future. I've seen psychedelics change people, and it has always been for the better. The feeling is quite profound, but difficult to explain.
No, I was actually in the throws of a major depression, and felt so bad about so much stuff, and then just sort of realized that maybe if I didn’t act like a shithead then maybe I wouldn’t feel like a shithead.
Fuck. That was me from 15 to 25. Almost a third of my life at this point was dedicated to being as awful as I thought I could get away with being. Growing up is nice though. And it's never too late.
That was me for a long time.
I made fun of all my friends, monopolized conversations, had a quick temper and got mad at people for little things, made terrible off-color jokes, brushed off my (ex) girlfriend when she was trying to tell me I hurt her feelings, all that. I thought it it made me a badass, like some kind of tough guy that everyone respected. Besides, I was just joking anyway, why should it matter? (I listened to a lot of Adam Carrolla at the time so...)
All that changed when I graduated college, moved to the big city (from a small college town), and went through a breakup.
When I started dating again, I started thinking about what I have to offer, why somebody would want to date me. And I couldn't answer that. What do I bring to the table? Why would anybody want to be with somebody like that? Who would want to be subjected to that?
I realized I wasn't "lol what an asshole!" I was "Jesus Christ what a fucking asshole."
It hit me really hard. I started re-examining my entire life, my whole personality. I got really depressed, felt a tremendous amount of guilt, for how I had treated all my friends and family, for what I put my ex through (I was never abusive or derogatory to her, more dismissive, like her being upset at my stupid joke was her problem. I loved her and we had a pretty good relationship all things considered, we just didn't have much in common apart from living in the same college town).
So I decided to change. I wasn't going to be an asshole anymore.
I started going to therapy. I started trying to be happy for my friends, encouraging them, asking about their hobbies or how their family was doing. I started smiling at people more, laughing at other people's jokes and giving them a "good one!" Nothing feels better than someone laughing with you and encouraging you, and I wanted to give that feeling to others. I also realized you don't need to be crass and tasteless to be funny, shock humor is cheap and fleeting. There is certainly a time and a place where it can be used to great effect, but you shouldn't base you whole sense of humor on it.
Mostly, I just tried to be a person that I would want to hang out with. Be yourself, but be the best version of yourself.
I met my current girlfriend a couple years ago and I told her all of this after we had been dating for a while, a confession of sorts. She was really shocked. She said she couldn't imagine me being that kind of guy. I told her it's because I made a conscious, concerted effort to be a great boyfriend for her. Because she deserves it, she's amazing. I just bought an engagement ring, we want to get married in Thailand.
Now, I'm not saying be a weak pushover, on the contrary, I stand up for myself and for what I believe. I'll argue about things that are important to me for hours. But you don't have to be a jerk about it, you can disagree and still be respectful.
Anyway, this got pretty long so I'll just leave it at that. I can still be a sarcastic jerk sometimes, but I do my best to recognize it and apologize. It's easier to be an asshole in a lot of situations, that's why we have to make an effort. Pobody's nerfect, but we're all stuck here together, might as well make the best of it.
TL;DR: Be the person you would want to hang out with and Adam Carrolla is not a good role model.
Holy fuck. Replace Adam Carrolla with Tucker Max and this could have been ripped from my autobiography.
Sadly assholery breeds assholery. When people feel they have been abused, they feel justified in abusing others. It's a completely destructive cycle.
Fortunately, it works the other way as well. One good turn, however small, often creates a positive cascade.
true, that's why a more recent thought of mine is, the worse the others, the better i try to be. of course that's not constantly in my mind, but sometimes picking up litter, to make the world slightly less shitty, smiling or just looking friendly, in a bus full of bored, annoyed and tired faces, being extra nice to a waiter who has to solely service a hundred people...
if you have the power to make the world more shitty, i will have the fucking power to make it a little better, every fucking day!
There's one of those in the littering thread above.
I always find the best remedy to dealing with someone who's an asshole is to just dish it right back. People don't like to get disrespected and mistreated so when give them a taste of their own medicine it brings them closer to the realization that, whoa, made something should change!
I think it's situational, in some cases a big enough shock can inspire change but a lot of people aren't that self-aware, and let their bad mood spread further
I'm currently at this point with a 'friend'.
This guy is one of the most self-centered people I've ever met in my life. He actively goes out of his way to not help other people, mooch off his friends and criticize other people for attention.I got to know him through mutual friends and when he moved in with one of my buddies.
I disliked him from the start; but a lot of people thought he was fun, so he stuck around. After multiple examples of him being an asshole, everyone has come around to my way of thinking and avoids him regularly. He seems to take quite a lot of pleasure in the fact that he can be an asshole to people and then pass it off as a joke. The only times I’ve ever seen him show remorse or backtrack is when he feels like he’s pissed too many people off and is in danger of losing any friends he has left. He also seems to have a complex where he can't be around a group of people without fucking with someone. I think its a macho thing, although that is the last word I would use to describe him.
My friends are a very nice, non-confrontational bunch. That means a lot of the time it’s up to me to be an asshole right back and put him in his place. This seems to be the only thing that works with him, because he responds well and shuts up for the time being. It also means I have to be on my guard a lot of the time when I’m out, which sucks.
He comes from a place that is known for being full of jock guys who promote and condone this type of pathetic behavior. I wish could blame this behavior on his environment, but I know it’s not that. Dudes a bully. The worst part is he’s actually quite intelligent and has a good sense of humor; yet he actively chooses to be a cunt. Bottom line; I find with people like these, vinegar rather than honey is the only effective solution.
Tl;dr Guy in my friends group is an asshole to everybody, being an asshole back is my solution.
I encounter them from time to time especially online. Just a few days ago I was having a discussion with some people on Reddit and this guy jumps in. He not only insults the hobby I was talking about, but he insults me, he insults the appearance of said hobby room. Now at first I thought he was just kind of a troll. But he kept going, he really wanted me to know how worthless and stupid I was. I probably shouldn't have given him any reason to keep talking to me but I was so interested how angry and sad somebody could be at somebody or something that has absolutely zero affect on them. Me and my girlfriend looked through his profile and we're appalled at some of the things this guy did. He wasn't a troll at all. He was definitely just a flat-out asshole and he was proud of it. Sometimes you can kind of tell that people have a different personality on the internet rather than the real life, this dude was just a miserable angry person. We actually felt bad for the guy and I regret saying some of the things to him that I did. Me and the girlfriend decided that that is what separates a lot of people. I actually felt sort of bad for what I said to somebody who is just a complete jerk off, and he would never feel bad about doing anything to anybody, online or in real life.
Of course I've encountered people like this in real life. The majority of people who I've encountered like that live a very tough life. Not everybody, but most of them create such a harsh environment in their life no wonder they're angry. It's like a perpetual cycle that could be sort of fixed if they just lightened up and decided to be nice to people, even if only for a day.
If someone’s profile history shows assholism all day, all the time, I usually don’t even respond to them. Their post isn’t about you, it’s about them and their need to berate/complain/vent/etc. I try not to absorb their anger, which is usually what their (unconscious) goal is - to pass their anger to someone else, because it makes them feel better.
You are so right. I will practice this in the future.
"...PROUD of being an asshole..."
This is the first thing I thought of:
"I'm just a regular Joe with a regular job I'm your average white suburbanite slob I like football and porno and books about war I've got an average house with a nice hardwood floor My wife and my job, my kids and my car My feet on my table and a Cuban cigar..."
But sometimes that just ain’t enough to keep a man like me interested!
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Some do and I think others are raised around assholes so they don't think it's abnormal to behave that way.
OMG this is so true. I had a really really close friend that I just "broke up with". He was a self proclaimed proud asshole, and everytime we spoke on the phone or hung out, he would always make me feel like shit and had no regard for my feelings. Needless to say I feel so much better and a hell of a lot more confident since I severed ties.
And the people who upon being called out for being an asshole start talking about freedom of speech and how “people are so easily offended.”
A lot of those people are lashing out at the world because they're unhappy losers.
this is the first thing i thought of
"I've got 8 months then I'm back to being just like you." Every time I watch Louis these days, every single thing seems like a message to what's to come.
EDIT: The non-consensual ejaculation at the 5 minute mark is pretty foreshadowing, too...
Like the president of the United States!
I've found that being a bit of an asshole is not a bad thing, provided you do not put it in everyone's face and it is not your only defining characteristic. I can work with the person who has a blunt personality, but is otherwise well rounded personalty wise and is not aggressive about it.
This is very true. Being a bit of an asshole can make you more assertive and help you stand your ground in everyday life. Its as you say, as long you don't put it in everybody's face.
I've done the assisted living thing for some disabled and very toxic relations and there is a time and a place to tell someone to go to hell, and it needs to be done with tact, and done without the intent to harm. But occasionally it is needed to signal displeasure at the other's transgressions in terms they will understand.
Yeah don't put it in everyone's face but just a few, right? I hate this way of thinking.
No. No it's not. Maybe you have a false definition of an asshole. Because you either are one or you aren't.
Sorry but I feel like everyone who says "Yeah I'm a bit of an asshole" is a huge one. Being an asshole is laughing at others, being rude, actively gossiping, having remarks, doing stupid jokes that make others feel bad.
I seriously can't think of a way to be a lil bit of an asshole.
Interesting, who is the authority in charge of defining the word asshole? But I tend to use the word 'toxic' to refer to people who engage in gossip and the social ninja arts. But I'm sorry for your inability to see in shades of gray in regards to personalty. Still... everyone I know meets the definition of asshole for someone I guess, for me I tend to define assholes as people who use their own judgement as the measure of all things and are unable to see in shades of gray.
See I'm proud to be an asshole a la my friends get to see my real opinions but to strangers I'm very polite because it costs nothing to be polite.
i detest those people who define themselves, and take pride in admitting to being a bit of a "dick/asshole/pain in the neck" and when/if they do, i always tell them "well, expect to be treated like one".
And yet there are still people in this very thread saying "it's not being an asshole, it's important to be assertive, yada yada yada..."
"but I just tell it like it is" no you're an asshole. sit down.
Especially on the road.
"I'm just an aggressive driver!"
No you're terrifying and endangering everyone's lives so you can get to work 2 minutes faster. Calm the fuck down and drive like a sane person.
The only good thing is they are most likely non-conformists. Assholes big and small don't take shit from nobody whether good or bad. If they were opposite of assholes, they would be pussies. No one respects a pussy (except the ones that taste good) just as much as no one respecting an asshole.
It's good to have a middle ground. It shows you're confident and assertive.
I feel like I disagree with how you're explaining this idea, but I agree with the idea itself. The penultimate sentence is a good summary, "it's good to have a middle ground".
Assholes big and small don't take shit from nobody whether good or bad
lol people who take pride in being unpleasant roll over the moment you stop validating them. They're only interested in the 'asshole' shtick when it gets them cheap laughs with their buddies.
It disgusts me as well. I want to be a worse person, in the sense that I want to have less empathy and be capable of great evil things, but I firmly believe that being able to understand others and show basic politeness is necessary if we want to be civilized human beings. Being polite is not hard and makes you look good even if you're lowering somebody into a shark tank.
I'm not proud of it per se, I find myself with the mentality that if I don't act assertive, then no one will listen to me. Maybe it's not true or maybe there is some other reason why people aren't willing to listen to me, but instead of instantly writing it off, you may want to consider why people are proud of it.
There's a difference between getting respected and demanding it. The former is harder than the latter, because real respect is earned. Look-up Jordan Peterson if you want to know what I'm talking about.
You have to be an asshole on some things tho.
Explain.
If you are not a dick in some instances you might start getting walked all over.
Saying no might start get you being regarded as a dick if you aren’t assertive.
You might think that being a dick and being assertive are different but I like to think they are in the same vein.
Do you want some examples on how sometimes you can be a dick and it could considered ok?
Yes. Show me.
P1: Can I borrow 20$?
P2: No.
P1: Hmmph whatever asshole.
P1: Buy me this shirt?
P2: No
P1: Hmmph asshole.
P1: Just five more minutes.
P2: I’m gonna turn off the game if you don’t get off your ass, we’re gonna be late.
I got more examples. You want them?
I'd consider this being assertive, putting yourself first, or reacting to someone who was being an asshole first (which wouldn't necessarily make you an asshole). Depending on how you look at it, you could be an asshole, but I think that's a bit reaching.
But I appreciate the examples. Please show me more, if you don't mind.
Hey man, P2 isn't the dick in these examples.
You're basically saying that if someone is trying to be a dick to you, it's okay to not let them. That's not being a dick, it's defending yourself from a dick. I think you're just phrasing this wrong.
Instead of saying "sometimes you need to be an asshole", you should say "sometimes you have to defend yourself from an asshole". Y'know since defending yourself from being taken advantage of should never even be considered as 'being an asshole'.
The asshole you're trying to defend yourself from should be the only one considering you as the asshole, you shouldn't consider yourself the asshole in this situation, ever, for self-esteem reasons. Nor should it be ever phrased as such, in my opinion.
This is very well put
I like you
Thanks man.
Being assertive and being a dick are different things.
Yeah, but I believe they are in the same vein.
I love most of your post, but I have to argue one thing.
If you work in an industry which requires any decision making ability at all, or you work with someone that needs that skill, do NOT come into work ill. You'll make shitty decisions, and it will affect others. Or someone less resistant to such things will catch it worse than you did.
I know you were mostly referring to the lazy and pulling a sicky when you aren't even remotely ill is not okay, but I think we need to stop with the "I have to be in work unless I'm actually dying," thing.
I want to add to this, if you are a manager, don't be an asshole and guilt people for calling in sick. They're either sick or need a mental health day. Or they're fucking around and will weed themselves out soon enough.
Getting guilted to come in while sick is rude and makes others around you sick which makes the problem worse. Don't be an asshole boss
From the other side, if you're an employee, and I tell you to stay home and not come in when you're sick, take me at my word and stay home when you're sick. I'm not trying to trick you so I can fire you, I honestly don't want you to get anyone else (especially not me) sick!
I’ve had a manager that used to call me on my sick days and be like ‘ how sick are you from 1-10 we really need you here’
I called my manager because I couldn't stop coughing for over an hour, five hours before a shift, to say I couldn't make it because not only was I feeling horrible, I was so far from Foodsafe it was comedic. When she told me she needed me there, I refused to go in on those grounds.
I was written up for "absence without adequate notice" and told that if I had a complaint about our sick policy, I could lodge a formal complaint with the foodsafe board. I proceeded to work the next entire week, alternating between preparing food and running into the back to dry heave, cough, and occasionally vomit, because I can't afford to lose this job. It got to the point that my coworkers would ironically shout "foodsafe!" every time I had to run off the floor.
Worst part is, if I'd had two fucking days to just rest, I would've recovered faster and been fine when I got back to work. Instead, I was genuinely sick for a week and spent a couple weeks really getting back to healthy.
It’s ridiculous, everyone in the media always harps on about how we all need more rest and stay home when you’re sick, but it’s not like certain industries ever change their practises on someone being sick.
I completely agree, but I find it interesting that you're skipping the most important thing:
If you come into work sick, you will get your co-workers sick. If you work somewhere you interact with customers, you will get your customers sick.
As a manager, it's really, really annoying to me how many employees can't get it through their heads that it's way better for the firm to lose one person to illness for couple of days than it is to lose two (or more) people for a couple of days.
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No, I get it. Pretending to be sick so you can skip work at the last minute is a bit of an asshole move to your colleagues.
To add to the driving section: use your fucking turn signal.
To add on to that: use your fucking turn signal BEFORE you brake and start turning
And in rural areas, please use turnouts.
Also to add to the driving section: if you live in England definitely do not keep right..
There seems to be an epidemic in Las Vegas... people use their blinkers, but it's the fucking wrong one. I swear, 90% of the time, people just use the right blinker, even when turning left.
So, don't drive a BMW?
Shopping - don't be an asshole. Spatial awareness - don't leave your cart in the middle of everything.
Holy shit this. The number of people who just park their cart in the exact middle of an aisle at the grocery store and then get huffy and puffy when you need to get by them is astounding. Sorry for being such a dick but I just need some fucking mustard my dude
Fucking hell my blood pressure skyrockets every time I go grocery shopping because of this. Also the people that come flying out of the aisles with their carts and don't even bother looking to make sure they don't hit someone. And then they look at you like YOURE the asshole.
From parking to getting in and out of the store, grocery shopping has to be the most condensed heads up asses concentration of the public in one space. You've got morons cutting across parking spaces instead of driving in the designated lanes without looking, then people walking across traffic without even picking their heads up out of the phones. No it's cool, at least one of us is paying attention. The aisle carts, people in the way, self-checkout idiots, and bumper car shopping cart assholes who come barreling out of the aisles. Then you go to leave and nobody can return their cart to the fucking return area. Not to mention all the drivers parked in the fire lane cause they're "just running in for one thing real quick!" Oh, like fucking EVERYONE else here? It's like the quintessential human selfishness experience.
Seriously, selfish assholes just ruin society. I can't even leave my house without wanting to kill someone because drivers, shoppers, everyone just has their head up their ass all the time. I use that rage to make sure I am not acting like that. I ask myself "would an asshole do that?" Then i don't do that if the answer is yes.
The unfortunate thing is that we notice every asshole. We don't notice every person who doesn't bother us. Skews the scales.
Oh man the luggage carousel. Take a big step back, more people will be able to get their luggage more easily if you'd just step back!
Also, if you’re waiting for people in the front to leave the plane, don’t get out of your seat and cut off other people in front of you who are patiently waiting. This used to be common courtesy, but lately it seems like everyone thinks they should get off the plane first, wherever they’re sitting.
I agree with you on all of these points and I used to have a hard time understanding why it isn't a simple solution. But the more I've thought about why most people aren't decent I've realized one important thing.
If you are the asshole in the room, all of your problems go away. These people who have the ability to be selfish and act in ways that only benefit themselves have a great existence. They simply ignore the impact of their actions and their path becomes much easier and less burdensome than the conscientious and considerate people suffering around them. The only time they feel bad is when their will is impeded and they don't get what they want. Their reaction to this is to just double down being an asshole.
It is an extremely pessimistic view but since I've made this realization I haven't seen anything that contradicts it. Being an asshole in a society that encourages self improvement, self reliance, self confidence, self wealth is the best choice if you want to succeed. And it is really sad.
Everything you've said is arguably true, and yet I do still think they pay a price. In quality of human relations, for one thing. The sad thing is, they may not realize it. When a person decides to be all about themselves, they probably have a deficit of good people in their lives, and by the time they become president they're too blind to anything but themselves and their end-goal to detect the gaping hole in their lives.
The only way I can think of that I'm consistently an asshole is at church. There are way too many people trying to be way too nice to me and include me in way too many things, so I actively ignore people and am super standoffish. I just want to hear a good sermon and go home. I like the preacher, but there are two greeters at the main entrance, two more greeters just inside, two more greeters at the entrance of the sanctuary, and another greeter just inside the sanctuary. People I've never talked to, but they still greet me by name and each pry into my day. No, I'm ignoring you all and going in.
It's funny- I don't go to Church anymore but I am just the opposite. I don't mind interacting with people and the small talk. It is the boring ass sermon I can't take.
In every other church I've been to and every other situation I've been in, I'm totally cool with small talk with strangers. These greeters are just way over the top though, and it bothers me deeply.
Honest question - would it bother you less if it was less "staged?" I mean if, instead of having greeters assigned to the doors and systematically talking to everyone that comes in (which I agree, seems super meaningless and therefore totally hollow), someone came up and to your seat a few minutes before the service and said, "Hey man, good to see you! How's it going?" Maybe they stay and chat for a few moments, or maybe not." Let's say they're not approaching EVERYONE, they're not sweeping the room or anything, just letting you know they see you and are glad you're here.
When I go to church, I emphatically do NOT want to be invisible. I want someone (or a couple people) to notice me and reach out, make me feel included and welcome. But I agree, the "staged greeters" at the door are a badly implemented idea. I'm just not sure yet what a better one might be.
It wouldn't bother me at all if it weren't staged. Any time it feels contrived, it bothers me.
Have you ever had someone give you a compliment you know they didn't believe? It's like that. I feel like I'm being lied to, being sold something, or both when they go over the top greeting like they do.
What does it cost you to briefly engage these folks, tell them a little bit about your day, inquire about theirs, then move on? A bit of the time you'd otherwise spend, what, sitting in the pew twiddling your thumbs, staring at your phone, or leafing through the Bible?
I'm not even a Christian, but I firmly believe that just being nice by having polite, honest conversation with people spreads goodness in the world.
I agree with you in principle, but what they do is complete overkill. Worse, it's contrived overkill. The "honest conversation" part is what I find difficult in this situation because they're not actually interested in what I have to say or who I am or any of that.
If I may suggest a change in mindset here, it would be to not let your internal judgments about what you think of others affect your willingness to be kind. You may think that they aren't interested in who you are or what you have to say, but you can't really know that, can you? And even if it is true, so what? Keep spreading your kindness and positive energy even if the recipient is "unworthy" in your eyes (after all, isn't everyone worthy in God's eyes?) Part of it is about setting an example for others around you. If you engage folks without judgment or reservation, others in your Congregation are more likely to do so in the future, especially the children.
I'm not sure that's what I should do. It seems like playing their game is just rewarding what I think is a bad behavior.
That's my point. You should not limit your kindness based on the actions of the recipient. Would Jesus be so stingy with his love?
Sometimes being kind isn't the right thing to do. Jesus did flip some tables and whipped some people when they were making a market out of the temple.
Yes, but wasn't that before he died for all our sins to forgive our transgressions and look PAST all of our imperfections? Should we not follow that example and leave judgment to God?
His death on the cross has nothing to do with him flipping tables. If you believe in Jesus, son God, you believe he didn't sin and was right in all his actions. That would include lashing out when it was necessary.
I'm not even talking about lashing out. I'm just talking about not playing the game these greeters wanna play with fake enthusiasm and fake friendship.
Alright man, if you really want to be standoffish in church, do you. God probably doesn't approve, but understands and forgives.
Compare his situation to Jesus in the temple, where he was flipping tables in disgust of its misuse. By not responding to the greeters, he is showing his disgust to their "unkind" actions (as described by him). This reveals a type of kindness that hopes to achieve peace in the long term.
Source: non-Christian like you, raised in the Catholic faith.
Don't be too hard on yourself. As long as you're not telling them to fuck off--who cares? Just give a polite "hello" and walk on by.
You go to church for yourself, while others might go just so they can talk to all 7 of those greeters. That may be the only nice interaction they have with other humans all week. There may come a day when you actually feel like talking to them and they'll be there for you.
I think I'll just find a back door to go in where there are no greeters.
Lol no one in my area would consider it rude to ignore these people. Demanding someone's time and attention (especially for fake-nice conversations) can be pretty assholish itself.
On the driving thing: while yes I agree it is unsatisfactory when there are severely slow drivers on the road, I maintain that nobody needs to be going like 15 mph over the speed limit either. The speed limits are there for a reason and I'm totally okay with taking like two minutes longer to get to where ever I'm going than put myself and others at more of a risk simply because I'm impatient.
And also, I second the tailgating point. It's okay for there to be space between you and the car in front of you. In fact, it's safer to have some space there than to not.
I agree, people don’t seem to realize how dangerous driving is. I was in a car crash at about 25-30mph and had very severe whiplash. When you’re going 60-100mph your chances of getting out of an accident alive are pretty slim. Roads have speed limits to let you know that’s the fastest you should be going to remain safe, and contrary to popular belief, it’s not the minimum speed you’re supposed to go. I live in a somewhat rural area, and there tons of fatal accidents every year because people were going too fast. There is a curve near my house that has a car run off it almost every week. People need to chill, you’re not cool because you drive fast and tailgate people, you’re an idiot putting yourself and others in danger.
If you drive under the speed limit and take 2 minutes more of your time to arrive safely, you're putting people who haven't got that extra time in a situation where they either lose time or have to manouvre to get around you. Please, just stick to the limit. It's for the best
Surely you're mistaken. I'm not trying to express that driving unsafely under the speed limit is okay. I certainly agree that there becomes a point below the speed limit such that if someone were to drive at that speed, it would be unsafe; and, especially so in the scenario you've described. Can we all agree that an acceptable speed is at or around the speed limit, maybe +/- 5 mph?
Furthermore, I yield to accept or believe that anyone's safety is worth being on time in any case. We shouldn't subject ourselves to danger just to avoid being late. If it's really that tight of a stretch for someone, then perhaps they should be more prepared to depart at an earlier time. If they haven't such an option, then they should loosen up their schedule because rushing to work to keep your job isn't worth potentially killing someone.
Cars are big and metal and really fucking dangerous if not used properly; and, they are fucking everywhere. Omnipotent, even! We basically live in a world of really large metal tumbleweeds rolling at a really high velocity all over the place, so forgive me if I'm a little cautious on the road.
Agreed. There are many who think going 20+ over the limit is fine as long as they're on the left lane. It's not and can put others in real jeopardy, especially if you feel like you need to rush.
Just leave a few minutes earlier people
In a lot of places though sticking to the speed limit can actually pose a hazard though since almost everyone is going 10-15 MPH over. I don't think /u/austin_dk was even suggesting going under the speed limit. Driving at the speed limit when most other cars are going 15 MPH over is what they mean I assume. I much prefer to go at the speed limit (in the right lane) but sometimes I feel unsafe at that speed due to how quickly cars are overtaking from behind.
Some people wait their whole life for that perfect situation that justifies being an asshole. Mostly, that moment will never come though.
My favorite line ever is: "You run into an asshole once a day, you met an asshole. You run into assholes all day? Buddy, you're the the asshole".
It's always made me stop and reevaluate how I'm being perceived in a room.
This is why Japan can be really refreshing. Don't get me wrong– they have giant social flaws that are completely backwards by modern standards– but the level of consideration to strangers is far beyond what I'm used to in California.
If I call in sick today because I feel just a little crappy and 100% lazy, am I totally screwing over my work friends?
And they don't only screw them over for that 1 day. They screw them over twice when they abuse the privilege and their employer is reluctant to give days off to people who are ACTUALLY sick.
This is so so so good
If you have a problem, find a manager
I just want to add to this that this is really only effective if it is either a small local place, or if the problem is something that is easily correctable on the spot.
If you are at a corporate place like a retail store, restaurant, etc, and complain to the manager about a company practice or policy, in actuality, manager can't do shit about it. It is above them. I'm sure they agree with you, but again, they can't do anything about it.
For example I am a manager at a restaurant and I'll get complaints all the time saying we charge too much. Sorry, I have absolutely zero control over the prices. Don't like the type of bread we serve? Sorry, again I don't control that. Don't like the background music? Again, not my choice. We forward complaints up the ladder all the time and 90% of the time get no response. The other 10% we just get told that's the way it is.
My point being is that if you have a problem with a corporation you need to complain directly to the corporation itself. Everything in the stores is standardized and decided upon by people way above store management.
I kind of an asshole. I can only really admit that because I've been working for a few years to be less of an asshole. It's harder than you think. Being an asshole is cathartic. It feels good to yell at people and take out your aggression on them.
But ultimately, NOT being an asshole can be equally rewarding. Getting legitimate appreciation and honestly helping people is great. It's just hard to remember that when you're mad. it's sort of like a diet. Everyone agrees that they should not eat cake for breakfast till it's breakfast time and they're hungry and staring at a cake.
I think what you're trying to say is to just have empathy in your daily life. The golden rule is another good one assuming that most people would not like to interact with another person who acts like they do themselves. All great points though!
Another thing to add to the driving one... Turn your headlights on when it is raining or foggy! The headlights in those situations aren't meant to help you see better, they are to help OTHERS see you! In Illinois it is the law to have your headlights on whenever you have your windshield wipers on but I see tons of cars that just don't bother. Why be stingy with your headlights? It's not like it takes much effort to turn them on and off.
Turn on ignition.
Turn on lights.
Adjust all your crap.
Go.
DBAA
I live in the UK and of slow drivers are on the right I get very angry
Problem is that one of the traits of being an asshole is not wanting to change that fact.
Rule of thumb: if you ask yourself "Does this make me an asshole?", the answer is always yes.
That's my number one rule and sometimes I think it should be the only one
My only question to you is where you could possibly live that rush hour traffic gets anywhere close to the damn speed limit... Small town?
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It's just... Here in Seattle we just have a daily crawl. There's no rush involved in the rush hours.
Even the express lanes are god awfully slow. So I just said fuck it and started riding the bus instead. If I'm gonna waste a ton of time I'm gonnado it while being lazy!! Haha
This is my life philosophy. If you really boil down most religions and just capture the essence, it comes down to don't be an asshole.
Don't be an asshole
SO where I work will never be an ethical place, got it.
Lack of spatial awareness is the root cause of 2-5 things on the list of things that piss me off
go under the speed limit in rush hour
Eh, I would much rather people drive at a speed they're comfortable driving than drive too fast for the benefit others. That's how car accidents happen.
I'm fine if people drive under the speed limit, just don't clog up the fast lanes if you aren't actively passing somebody.
That one about calling in is my personal peeve, I never called in because I didn’t want to fuck over my coworkers, meanwhile the assholes I came to work for would take off three days a week sometimes with call ins, fucking me over, and because the job was union based, no punishment ever went their way.
Did you ever not call in when you were actually sick and shouldn't have gone to work? The people who go to work sick are worse than the people who call off sick IMHO because then everyone else gets sick and have to miss work. My office's policy is that if you're sick then stay home so you won't spread it around to everyone else.
No I did, but if you read my comment, these people would call in regularly, several times a week, not because they’re sick. They’d even tell me what they did instead of working because the union made it impossible to fire these people. We get five call ins for six months, they’d hit that in two weeks. Didn’t matter. Went on for 9 months before I moved to a new job, they still work there.
This is the golden rule in my house. The kids know the one rule is “don’t be an asshole”. It’s incredibly versatile.
Agree, some people aren't really assholes though, some are just idiots or aren't thinking
My mother is the perfect example
This one of the biggest things I want people to do!! If we could all just be more courteous and nicer to each other the world would be so much better and there'd be a lot less anger towards others. I don't understand why people can't be more respectful of others.
As for your last point... that is something I'm working on. I let other people's asshole behaviors get to me way too much. I don't know how to let it go, but I'm working on it. I just don't understand why people are such assholes to each other, it doesn't make sense to me and pisses me off way too much.
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I worked retail for 10 years, I used to do this too to help me get through the day!! The longer I'm away the less I do this. I haven't thought this in awhile. Thanks for the reminder, I need to bring this back into my thought process.
I feel like I'm only an asshole to other assholes or people who deserve to not be rewarded for their behavior, like if a dickhead cuts me off in a spot where I am letting people get in and out of a gas station where there is plenty of traffic activity and this person just comes and takes that spot (many cars behind me in line), you bet your ass im going to honk at this person for 3 minutes straight.
If someone thinks they are above other people and show a lack of consideracy (the act of being considerate), then fuck that person and I will make sure they don't get away with that certain behavior. Not so much to the extent of harming anyone of course, but I hate to see people get away with stupid shit. Maybe I'm just fucked mentally but that's how I see things.
Did someone really turn a blender on at 4am in your house?
So true in shopping. I'd park my cart in an empty space by the aisle racks and some ignoramus would park their cart right next to mine, blocking the entire lane.
I've read that 40% of all crops grown end up in food waste. That is astonishing when you consider the energy costs that go into raising and transporting food.
You have to be an asshole on some things tho.
I feel like this should be more upvoted
Spatial awareness
Admittedly I have pretty bad anxiety, especially in social situations, but I'm continuously surprised by the lack of spatial awareness in people around me. I'm always watching, looking for cues, making sure I'm out of the way.
Omg. I can't tell you how many angry customers complain to me about shit and say "well maybe I'll take my business elsewhere!" As if I have any sort of personal stake in this giant corporation. It takes all I have not to reply "I'd really appreciate that."
I love you. Thank you for this.
Almost called in sick a few mins ago ...
Buy some canvas shopping bags, or make your own, they're really not that difficult. I hate those plastic reusable ones they sell. Get some made out of natural material and use them. Get them in bright colors if you're the forgetful type who will leave them in the car, hopefully the bright colors will make you more likely to see and remember them.
The first step is admitting that you have a problem.
On the "not being an asshole" front, listen to people. People now don't listen, they catch on to a word or phrase and respond based on that instead of the whole message.
I like the last part. Before, I was the type of person to get angry for nothing but someone told me "hey, will it matter in 5 years at your wedding? Will you be thinking about it?". Most of the time, the answer is no. Therefore, there is no need to let it ruin your day or other's. It totally changed my point of view.
All of this is brilliant, thank you. Vancouver is home to (I swear to god this is not an exaggeration) some of the worst drivers in the world and every day it’s a struggle to keep upbeat and cheery when you’re going 20km/ hour under the speed limit in the left lane while they’re going about 2kms slower than the person in the right lane.
This is how you Life.
Most of the asshole behavior I see in other drivers would be eliminated if they just paid some bloody goddamned attention. Just pay attention to the road and not your phone or whatever-the-hell-else and traffic will be reduced, the roads will be safer, and we'll all get along better.
Alternative idea, if you are feeling sick, call in so you do not get others sick too.
If you are coughing and hacking, be considerate, and not infect others.
I remember once waiting in line at TKTS, a place for same day heavily discounted Broadway tickets in NYC. It's popular with New Yorkers and tourists alike, and since it's first come / first served, lines start forming nice and early.
Years ago, I got there a half hour early, and there was already a decent line in place. By the time the line opened, there was probably 70-100 people waiting. I remember a young professional, dressed well in designer clothes, just walked towards the front of the line and told the people (probably tourists) she cut in front of, "Oh, this is how we do things in New York."
They looked dumbfounded, but an old woman turned around and loudly chastised the woman. "I've lived here for over 70 years, and that is not how we do things in New York, young lady."
The young woman had the grace to leave the line, and I still distinctly remember the smiles of the tourists.
It was a minor incident, and nobody else seemed to take notice of it, but I still occasionally think that old woman made for a great ambassador. She turned a minor but really shitty maneuver into a pretty nice, heart-warming story.
Little gestures can have profound effects.
Good point, and good post. And thank you for sparking a good memory for me - can't remember what show I saw that day for the life of me, though!
One very common outlook I see is "People are assholes to me sometimes, so I'm allowed to be a jerk every now and then too."
I can never understand it... why would you want to be the thing that you despise?
Standing right up on the luggage carousel won't make your luggage come sooner. If everyone stood 4 feet away, the whole process would be nicer
So many people don't get this and they think they deserve no scrutiny for it. It's pretty simple to me: if you make poor choices that make someone else's life harder, you're an asshole.
Stop and THINK about what your actions will do to others. Is turning on the light and blender at 4 AM going to wake my spouse/roommates/kids? Is it that important I do this right now? If I call in sick today because I feel just a little crappy and 100% lazy, am I totally screwing over my work friends? Am I at least trying to pay people back in kind for what they do for me?
We have a real problem with folks branding this as being an "SJW."
And if you're getting angry and about to be an asshole, ask yourself if this is worth the heartburn and the negative impression of others.
And sometimes you mess up and don't stop yourself from being an asshole. It happens. But you can still reduce your assholishness by apologizing for it. It goes a long way to say "Hey I was having a bad time but that's no excuse for being shitty. I'm sorry."
First thing that came to mind. Great post!
My roommate cooks, uses speaker phone, and loudly does all sorts of shut at midnight and early morning.
I call him out and he acts offended that I have the gall to ask him kindly to stop so I can sleep.
Bastard has no manners, no care, nothing. Just fucks others over through pure selfishness. If it doesn't help them, they don't give a damn.
I've always said that this is Rule #1. If everyone followed it, the world would be a much better place.
TIL I'm not an asshole, woohoo!
If I call in sick today because I feel just a little crappy and 100% lazy, am I totally screwing over my work friends?
Important thing with this: Are you contagious? Then STAY AT HOME.
But seriously, how much food and general junk do you throw away every week that was probably unnecessary?
do some people actually throw food in the trash??
I was a total asshole from age 13 thru 30.
One day I heard the advice: “Don’t be an asshole”. I decided to take this advice to heart.
At first, it was a constant analysis of “Is this a asshole thing to do? Will others think I’m an asshole for doing it? Can I do better?” etc.
Now at age 34, it’s now second nature for me to be decent.
When I hated myself, the world hated me. When I learned to care for the world, the world began to care about me.
I’m much happier now.
This is fantastic!
Your last part about getting angry reminds me of something I've recently learned about myself. Anytime I'm getting ready to do or say something out of self righteous anger, I immediately stop. No matter how justified I feel, no matter how much the person I'm getting ready to lay into fucked up, I have found that when the dust settles, I regret my action. Every. Single. Time.
Self righteous anger is my quickest way to regret. So I have a rule now. Pump the brakes whenever I feel justified in my anger. Because I'm probably about to create a regret.
Just as importantly: Don't allow assholes to run free reign
Wish my flatmate would look at this. He's usually on video games from midnight till 8 am, which is fine, but he squeals at the top of his lungs and swings on his chair.
This should be handed to every kid on graduation day along with their diploma.
I was in this 'maker space' Facebook page and someone asked a question about how some specific tool worked and someone wrote out a good 3 paragraphs saying that they cannot be bothered to help the op because op can just Google it. Like if it bothered you that much, and you don't have time to answer op's question then why did you take the time to tell them that you can't answer it?
I think it takes more effort to be a dick than to be nice.
Depends on your definition of asshole. People have more sensitive feelings these days so it's always a moving target. I do agree, though, that people need to simply stop and think about what their actions will do to others.
My former roommate needs to read this and live by it, because be breaks just about all of these (hence the word "former").
Applied for a job that asked me to watch two quick culture videos before the phone interview.
The first was about why they all call each other Moose. So, "thanks Moose" recognizes the individual who did something as well as the supporting team that helped them accomplish it.
The second was about their DBAA rule. It's simple: Don't be an asshole.
It's a cool company. Didn't get the job... Must have been an asshole.
And if you're getting angry and about to be an asshole, ask yourself if this is worth the heartburn and the negative impression of others. 99% of the time it should be a "no,"
I so very much need to learn this. I've been doing better in traffic, everyone here drives like an asshole here and once I acknowledged that, it was much easier to not take it personal when someone does something assholeish or idiotic in traffic. Just have to have the presence of mind to take a deep breath. (It also helps driving the opposite way of rush hour).
Hard to have hope anyone will do this. Last month, somebody literally threatened to jump me for taking too long to get their order ready. And today some douchebag legit just rammed into the side of my car and drove off. People fucking suck. What a shitty fucking ~~day~~ year.
I feel like you should teach a class for adults. "Don't Be A Asshole". Lots of good advice. I want to print off your comment.
I wonder if being an asshole has any genetic groundings to it.
This is some good criteria for determining whether one is an asshole, similar to the depression symptoms checklist. Not that I didn't latently now all along, but TIL my brother's an asshole.
Just act like your grandmother is sitting there with you. If she wouldn't be proud to tell people what you were doing, maybe you shouldn't've done it.
When I played roller derby one of the first things that was applied to every situation was "Don't be a douchebag". I have found this rule to be useful in every situation I find myself in. (just in case anyone is wondering, rule #2 was don't get pregnant; also very wise advice for me!)
If I had gold to give, you'd get it.
I try to live by the ultimate rule: Respect.
Respect other people.
Respect things.
Respect people's things.
etc.
You do that, and you won't "be an asshole".
Being mindful for others when doing things. Turn the light out when there’s no one left in the room, close that gate, put your dishes away when you’re done with them, make sure you leave a place as you found it, refill the fucking coffee pot Jeff, it’s not that difficult you freeloader!
make sure you leave a place as you found it
Nah, aim to leave it better than you found it.
This was the one thing I took from Boy Scouts. My first camping trip was a bear. I couldn't go on the store run for supplies with my team because of piano practice so I gave them the money. Trip comes up and we don't have enough food. They bought lighters, rubber bands for some fucking reason and like a pop tart each for breakfast and cookies for dinner. I eat 2 pop tarts and got in trouble for "stealing food" as in my kid troop lead told on me to our adult troop leader but didn't explain there wasn't enough food, just that I was taking from others. We have oatmeal for breakfast and I hate oatmeal and we're packing up and it's raining and my tent won't roll up. Since I was new, they had told my mom to not worry about buying a tent for me, the troop had a spare tent and I could use that which it turns out is a learning experience because the tent has never rolled up well. The adults think we're just working together as a group and what they don't hear is the kid troop leader say, "As is tradition time to point and laugh at the new kid as he struggles in the rain." A fair amount of fingers went up, not all and only 2 kids laughed (assholes).
So I'm in a dirty outfit, mud on my knees, the tent won't roll up right, I'm getting laughed at and just thinking about why I asked my mom if I could do this. We're packed up and the rain stopped and the suns out so I'm in drying, damp clothes and not a happy camper. The adult troop lead pulls us all together and says roughly "it was a good weekend, we really pulled together, there were some issues on taking what didn't belong to us" (and I get elbowed) "but we learned from our mistakes and now to really end the trip we need to do our best to keep the parks better than we left them. Form a line we will all walk forward together and if you see any trash even if it's not yours, pick it up so that we can make a contribution no matter how small to improving what God gave us."
How old were these kids when you went? Sounds like a pretty horrible experience compared to how scouts was for me. The litter picking line has always stuck with me too though; I remember when I got older I was a young leader and I had to get this bunch of cubs (8-11 year olds) to do it. A lot of them were really difficult about it and wouldn't do it properly; having spent a weekend with them all it was pretty easy to guess which ones would put the effort in though.
The cowboy rule: if the gate was open when you found it leave it open behind you, if the gate was closed when you found it leave it closed behind you.
I used to work with horses and I cannot tell you what a giant pain in the ass it is when people close a gate that's meant to be left open for a reason or leave it open that needed to be left closed. Loose horses = bad day
Fuckin Jeff.
Why does it seem that every time someone references an actual name for a reddit rant, they use "Jeff"? Do you know how jarring that is? :P
/One of the fuckers
Unless it's Tammy...that bitch.
"You know you can't bring that weak ass stuff up in this humpy bumpy! You kill the Jo', you make some mo'! You know that baby, else you in for a long day, a loooong day, cuz Triple T up in this BIIIIIIITCH!"
You need an office linebacker. You Kill the joe, you make some mo', Jeff! Woo!
Was going to say something about the great Terry Tate, Office Linebacker. Glad to see it posted.
refill the coffee pot
My office has a Keurig and I'm tortured because on the one hand the cups are CRAZY wasteful (and we don't have a reusable one), but on the other hand it will refuse to work if there isn't enough water in it to make at least 2 cups of coffee.
On the one hand: The world. On the other hand: Convenience. SOPHIE'S CHOICE.
(as a Jeff) Fuck you I do what I want
It’s Jeffs like you that are tearing this work environment apart!
Fuck it I aint paid enough to give a shit. I should be running this company, I'm way smarter than the dipshits at corporate.
I don’t know if you intended it, but I read that last line in John Oliver’s voice. It fits so perfectly.
Can you teach my wife please? All but the coffee pot is describing my wife.
Try to take small steps to be a better person. Let people merge in traffic if it's safe to do so (huge problem where I live) Let people who have much less than you go first on line at the store. Put the shopping cart back. Don't litter. Hold doors for people. Use your manners. Compliment people. Think about things from other's perspectives.
It's not hard to do at all and it makes the world a little tiny bit better of a place.
Edit, thank you so much for the reddit gold :) that was kind of you! I will enjoy the features it brings!:)
Double edit: re: the merging, I do mostly highway driving and was referring to if letting someone merge if there is safe enough space to do so, or if a lane ends abruptly (accident for instance), letting someone in. Don't clog up traffic at an intersection or put anyone in danger by slowing down if you shouldn't be.
Once I was behind a guy at the store who had a huge load of groceries, whereas I only had a coffee. It was the only checkout line so I just kind of accepted that it would take a while. The cashier had already started ringing him up, and when he looked back and saw me he told the cashier to add my coffee to his total and let me go on with my day. Such a nice gesture, if I get a similar chance I'd love to do that for someone some day.
See? You remember that. That is why its good to do things like this, it sticks with people and they in turn try to be kinder as well.
"Today me, tomorrow you."
EDIT: As everyone and their grandmother have told me: Yes, I now know it is supposed to be the other way around. I'll just proudly wear my shame!
Ooooh I got the feels just from reading your comment. Got to find that whole story now...
Good man... You bastard.
I was sure it wouldn't hit me again but right as I get to the end I just can't help it. I really hope that man got help if he ever needed it.
It's seriously misleading... That's like the 5th time I've read it, and it gets me every time, even when it feels like it won't.
Holy Hell that thread is now 7 years old. :|
I don't even need to click on it and read it and I'm already tearing up just from remembering the story. Fucking powerful stuff.
Thank you. I was just thinking about this story the other day. Now I'm at work balling my eyes out. A 40 year old man shouldn't be weeping at work.
Luckily people I work with know I have contacts, and they always get irritated. I always have an excuse :) Being a 6'4. 380lbs 36 yr old man, I get embarrassed also. YAY CONTACTS!
Note to self. Lie to my friends about wearing contacts during weeping moments in my life.
I know what that story is. I know I cry every time I read it. I know we just changed to an open office at work and it is way easier to see my face from across the room now. I know I don’t want to be crying at work because of that. WHY DO I STILL READ THIS EVERY TIME I SEE IT?
I remember this. I spent the whole day finding something wholesome to do.
Ah fuck you... I guess I'll pull out a new box of Kleenex..
I'M NOT CRYING, YOU'RE CRYING.
What exactly does "Today you...tomorrow me?" mean? Does it mean something like "I helped you today, so in the future please help someone else."?
It's more like "today you need help and I will help you as I may need help in the future"
Ah makes sense now, I hope I can use this one for myself one day.
Thanks :)
For anyone curious the saying in Spanish is "Hoy por ti, mañana por mí "
Ohhhh how beautiful! What a sweet story
I was just thinking it was from the song in Rent~ Thanks for the link!
i swear i run into this thread at least once a week
Some of the replies to that comment are awesome too. Very humbling.
You have that backwards. Its "Today you, Tomorrow Me". Otherwise its just a motto to help yourself first lol
Or "Today I'm the helper, tomorrow you could be."
I did get them in the wrong order though, my bad.
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i didn't get what the big deal was until he unwrapped his tamale. fuuuuck. huge knot in my throat at work. i won't cry i won't cry i won't cry
"Today me, tomorrow hopefully not"
Oh no! Quick! Do you like movies about gladiators?
I do!
Somebody get the link to this post, please.
It's an all-time great.
u/MrMagius posted it.
This also reminds of the Shhh baby is ok story.
6 comments so far and no one pointed out you have the quote backwards?
I think it goes "Today you, tomorrow me", but close enough! lol
Haha yeah, I was like.. that incorrect quote doesn't make sense, why would the Mexican guy help himself and then gloat about it?
Sounds like a scam haha
Don't make me cry again
Isn't it always today?
Edit: OK, the story is pretty good, though.
I'm not crying you're crying!
Today you, tomorrow me* :)
With all these people pointing out you got it backwards, you gonna fix it or...?
I'll carry my shame with pride!
I like that attitude
I love it when people proudly wear their shame, it makes me like them more!
¡Sí!
Reminds me of The Gulag Archipelago, but that was along the lines of 'Today you, tomorrow me'
General misquoti!
^that's ^^a ^^^great ^^^^story ^^^^^though
This is what essentially pure Karma is. The towns, villages and societies you go to and things just seem different I think is where pleasantries have been caught in perpetuity.
XD
"Today you, tomorrow me"*
It's actually "today you... tomorrow me"
Oh, I wanna point out, that it's "Today you, tomorrow me."
I think you got it backwards
Wasn’t it the other way around?
“Today you, tomorrow me.”
It also could mean much more than you realize.
There are people who were planning to kill themselves but were stopped not by being talked down from the edge, but by the basic kindness of a stranger giving them something as small as a free coffee with a kind smile.
It's the small things that are the most important because of how trivial they are. Big things are obvious and only really matter when they aren't done, but the small things are the ones we never think of and what we specifically don't see as necessary.
We should all try to be kinder. Except german children. They are already.
It's silly, but the older lady that just excitedly pushed her cart my way at Aldi instead of putting it back to get her quarter back just made my day. It was a brief moment of niceness that changed my whole day. I stuck my quarter in the next cart before I went into the store to give someone else a free cart too.
Little things pile up. Everything we can do for someone else is a small improvement to the world.
Ahh I love that you paid it forward. That is fantastic. <3
And now I get to read about it, and my heart is warmed too.
Reminds me of when someone in the drive thru pays for the meal behind them and then it starts a chain of people paying for someone's meal.
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Hell yeah, that would make my day too! Good on you!
Thisthisthisthisthisthis is why it's good to be a nice person
So funny. This is one of my core personal philosophies. Seeing someone else put it out there brings joy to me. Being kind is not only fulfilling, its contagious. Kindness spreads and spreads. Just exercise some compassion and patience with your fellow man. Take the high road most of the time. All this occurred to me in LSD trips, funny enough.
I have a similar experience and I still remember it after quite a few years.
I've worked retail jobs and I think most people can agree you really do remember the most unremarkable situations over the years when they involved really nice people. Good actions don't go unnoticed.
The problem is the assholes that take advantage of that kindness.
Some do, but then there are others who truly appreciate it and won't, and I think it's important to stand up for yourself if someone really tries to take advantage in a rude way.
This is true, but the point of being kind is simply to do nice things. It doesn't matter what the person does with that act of kindness. What matters is that someone did something good for others.
I always think that I'm the one who has to live with my decisions. I can live with being kind.
Love this! Even working minimum wage I can definitely spare a few bucks to make someone’s day smoother. I’ll definitely pay attention for this in the future — thank you for sharing.
Plot Twist: you were in cahoots, and he already knew he couldn't pay. he brought a lot of things to checkout to give you a chance to run away with the coffee. when cashier finishes, he pretends to fumble and says sorry he can't pay, then leaves
Shh! You'll cost me all my upvotes if you reveal my plan!
Had a similar experience just last week. At a drive through at taco bell, a big family in a large van was in front of me, took a while to order. Didn't get annoyed or anything, that's life. I make my order, turns out they paid for my quesadilla as well. I went out of my way to try to pay it forward throughout the week. That stuff can build on itself, if you let it.
It will absolutely snowball.
Especially because of the joy it brings you to know you've brightened someone's day. It causes you to do more than what was done for you, leading others to pay forward like you and get that same dopamine blast.
Due to accidentally ingesting shrimp, my girlfriend started to go into anaphylactic shock (seafood allergy). Having no antihistamine on hand, we left the restaurant and raced to the nearest drug store, which, as luck would have it, was a Walmart. I ran into the store and grabbed some benadryl, then headed for checkout. Well, it was Walmart, so there were long lines and only a handful of registers open. I went to the head of the nearest line, explained the situation to the guy that was checking out and tried to give him $10. He refused and had the cashier add it to his bill, so I could get back to my girlfriend with the medicine.
Things like that restore your faith in the human race.
I let a guy go ahead of me and he just looked at me and and said something to the cashier like "I don't know, he told me to go before me" like I was inconveniencing him and acted a bit annoyed.
No thanks or anything. Ass
That is really nice.
I was in a Wal-Mart checkout line a few months back. There was an elderly woman buying some basic necessities: milk, eggs, bread, and some cold medicine, as well as a small toy for her grandson. Her debit card kept being rejected and she was very embarrassed trying to decide what items she could sacrifice to meet her card balance.
Some older guy behind me said, "Can you believe this?", frustrated that she was holding everybody up. I said to the cashier, "No problem, I'll pay for it." And she started hugging me. I just said, "No need to thank me. We're all part of the same family. Pass it forward. I know you will."
On the last day of my freshman year of college, there was this girl in Panera basically paying for everyone's food. She said she was graduating and since she had spent the last semester living off campus, she forgot the school charge all students $250 which gets added to your account as dining dollars every semester. The thing is if you don't use them by the time you graduate, all of it is forfeit and you can't get it back because there's no next semester for it to roll over to. When she realized she still had the $250 dining dollars, she had until midnight that night to use it all. Since Panera was the only restaurant still open on campus on the last day, she was just sitting there buying everyone who walked by some Panera for lunch.
This is probs the best thing someone can do for me on a work.Someone did this for me once when i was working.I pushed carriages at a grocery store ,and behind someone.The dude said i would cover his sandwich ,so he doesnt lose break time.
It doesn't have to be that exact same situation. To OP's point, there are lots of opportunities to be nice to another person every day.
I work at a grocery store and I’ve been in line behind someone with a big order and they insist on buying my lunch. I love to give back when I can.
Pay it forward. I live my life by that! Be that guy/gal!
Such a cheap gesture too. Not only did it save you time, but it saved the time of everyone behind them.
Now you and everyone behind you are 1 minute sooner to getting through the intersection before a semi runs a red. Either that or he caused you to be there right on time for it. In which case, that bastard has no considerations for his free will on space/time.
that's so amazing. I love finding and hearing ransom acts of humanity.
I meant random. I don't know how to edit off the mobile app.
I have a number of health problems. I was having a bad day. I'd spent the whole day in the hospital getting an infusion of medication, which leaves me exhausted and feeling weak. On top of that, my symptoms were in full swing, so I was in a significant amount of pain, and had been in and out of the bathroom all day. I was on my way to my apartment, where I lived alone. My parents were out of town. I hadn't talked to my friends in a while because they were busy with work and school. As you can imagine, I wasn't in a good place mentally.
I stopped at wal-mart for a few essentials. I went through the self-checkout, and was bagging my stuff, when the guy supervising the self-checkouts came over and helped me double-bag a few of the heavier items. He was very helpful and friendly. It was a small thing, but from the place I was at, it seemed huge. Here was a decent person, just doing their job but making the effort to be good at it and nice to other people. Totally turned my mental state around. I still felt like shit, but at least I was in a good mood now.
I thanked him, and on my way out, saw someone who seemed in charge and asked if they could take feedback on an employee. They said yes, so I told them what he did and that I really appreciated it. I saw him there again a few weeks later, and told him directly. Because it really did mean a lot to me.
Little things ain't always so little. Ever since then, I try to do more little things for other people.
I like that guys style. Typical Easter closing hours had everybody at the supermarket yesterday shopping as if they were going to starve on Good Friday, I wish I was behind that guy yesterday so he could add my 2 items to his katrillion items, would totally marry him.
maybe I'm to much of an asshole years ago with to much money. At the store and this lady was digging thru her purse for a couple dollars or whatever. I didn't want to wait anymore so. threw the cashier money to cover what she owed, grabbed the receipt soon as noticed what happen. tried thanking me as I paid for my things.
gave her a meh, don't worry I didn't want to wait any longer.
I might be more strapped for monies but it's a total the account can handle I'll end up doing the same thing if I'm in a hurry.
patience is a virtue I tell people. sometimes I rarely listen to my own advise.
Wow, really interesting method. I would have not thought of that, I think. But I am always the one with just a handbasket.
I always liked the gesture of buying coffee for people, relatively inexpensive, and brings mounds of happiness to people in the morning. Had a 50 (or so) year old with two grand/kids and took care of them. Was only $12 but she hugged me.
You already paid him back if you learned from the situation.
I had a lady pick up my whataburger order once in the drive thru because I flashed my brights at her because it was her turn, honestly trying to be as polite as possible and not honk. She thought that she had caught on to why I was flashing and moved ahead. It turned out she didn't have her headlights on. She thought I was reminding her to put on her headlights for safety, so she thanked me. The window cashier let me know why she did it and I told her that it was misinterpreted but much appreciated. She then asked me if I would like to pass it on and I said, "yeah, catch the guy behind me." She said, "the total is $22.98." And I said, "Oh, never mind. I'll just take mine for free." Then I drove away feeling like an ass. I just didn't have the money at the time.
Random af: For the record I put up other people's shopping carts, because it infuriates me that people can get them within' 20 feet of the cart holder and just not even attempt to put it up.
As the other guy said, you remember this story. You told people this story. One day you'll be getting groceries and you'll have the opportunity to pay it forward.
Don't let us down!
This reminds me of the time that my dad got stung by a bee on his ankle, when I was 9. We didn't know what was happening but his ankle swelled up, almost immediately, and then his leg started to blow up, too. We called our family doctor, who said he was having an allergic reaction and that my mom should rush to the drug store and get him some benadryl. She left me with him, to watch him, and did so. She took so long to get back and in the meantime I was watching my father swell up further and further and he was complaining of his stomach beginning to hurt, so I was freaking out that his throat was going to close up next, if she didn't get back in time and I was going to watch him die. Apparently, there was a really long line at the drug store (back to school supply season) and even though she only had the 1 item, she had to wait, and her english wasn't good enough for her to ask if she could cut the line because she was so worried about her husband. While I'm sure if she had been able to ask, someone would have let her cut, I wish then, someone had noticed that all she was trying to buy was emergency allergy medicine and offered to let her go first. She made it back in time and he was fine shortly thereafter but it was a scary experience.
/r/fuckingmanly
"Shit, that guys only got one thing, throw it on my bill and he can get the fuck out of here"
Thats some leadership there.
I need to remember this and do it for someone.
That's soo nice of them. I do a big family shop at Aldi to saved money. I always let people with only a couple of items go first. My dad always did it, I do it and hopefully my sons will show the same courtesy.
That's a great idea. I would never have thought of that while in line. I just would have felt bad not to have noticed you sooner.
Yeah a few weeks back I was buying a muffin in my building cafe when I realized I had left my wallet in my cube. The guy who had gone before me heard and turned around, came back and paid for me. He absolutely insisted. It’s incredible to me that we have such low expectations of each other that this is an example of someone being awesome. I wish stuff like this was the norm but most people, including me, either aren’t inclined to do anything or aren’t sympathetic enough to notice or think to
I forced something similar to happen once. I walked up to the check out lane just as a dude started getting is stuff rang up. I think “fuck, a second too late, guess I’m waiting” then a lady with an equally full cart, who had been standing looking at magazines at the next checkout, looked at me and said “excuse me, but I was in line with my husband!” I was instantly irritated. Half because I now had to wait twice as long and half because of her tone implying I cut her in line. I waited maybe 20 seconds then walked around to behind the cashier rang up my batteries -boop- $9.xx. Tossed a $10 on the register and walked out. The lady was yelling-something something rude something. The dude just laughed. It was way out of my character to do something like that, but it felt good.
I try to do this as well, and am always appreciative when people offer it. As a husband I get the text on the way home from my wife, "Can you stop and get ...?", a lot. I never ask though.
But to the guy who asked if he could go first with his 6 items because I had 9, no. And fuck your rude ass for asking, and then presuming that being in fatigues meant I would give in.
I want to do this someday! By that I mean, have some guy in front of me buy my stuff! /s
joke.
Picking up litter doesn't just remove garbage from the streets, it removes the precedent that garbage should be there in the first place.
Great point! You are right I think.
There's a lady in my town that goes out with a garbage bag and a litter picker and picks up rubbish in the local park.
The town raised some money to buy her a warm winter jacket and some flowers or something. Nice as that was it would be nicer if they didn't litter in the first place.
I really want to go out and copy the example she's setting but life keeps getting in the way. I definitely want to make some time for it though.
If more people thought like you, that would be leaps and bounds above what currently happens. Good on you! Not just thinking about now and immediate impacts.
Same with being polite. It sets a standard that maybe not everyone will follow but they will be seen as outside the social norm instead of anti-social behavior being the default setting.
Where I grew up (and now live again), litter doesn't seem like a huge problem. People throw things in trash cans.
My husband and I moved to a different city over 1,000 miles away and lived there for 6 years, and one of my earliest memories is of a person driving ahead of us throwing an entire McDonald's bag full of garbage out the window. Neither of us could believe it, it seemed so bizarre. Then, another time we saw a teenager finish a drink from a large can (like a 24oz aluminum can), drop the can on the ground, and walk away. Mind blown. This was a common attitude judging by the amount of trash on the streets on a regular basis. So ya, there are places where this lesson really needs to be reinforced.
Philly?
Cincinnati, actually. I'm from Arizona, and we don't seem to have litter problems here the way we saw in Cincinnati.
expanding on this and the "put your cart back." I work in a grocery store and am frequently the one sent to collect buggies. I always leave one in the corral so it will hopefully encourage others to leave there's there as well. It doesn't always work, but it's my small plea.
I totally agree with picking a up litter to prevent future litter. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
I've been doing my own cleanup in my neighborhood just so I can walk my dog without feeling like I live in a third world slum. There is a high school and a middle school nearby, it is sad how badly they don't give a shit.
I can't control what other people do, they would still trash the streets whether I pick it up or not , but I can control my reaction to it and just be the better person and deal with the problem myself even if that is just I don't personally have to look at it next time I go out.
I once witnessed a woman throwing litter out of the passenger side window of a pickup truck at a red light. I ran up, yelled something incoherent, and threw the litter into the bed of her truck.
1/10 execution, but my intent was good.
I was walking across the parking lot at Target when this lady dumped her cigarette out her car window. I stopped, picked it up, and with a nice voice said, "Here, i think you dropped this!" while handing it to her.
She put out her hand, with a blank stunned face, and i turned and entered the store. This other person stopped me and said, "that was absolutely fantastic." with a huge smile on their face.
Im pretty sure they will both remember that moment and tell that story too.
I heard that when you enter a place that is literally exempt from any litter.. you are more inclined to leave it that way. However, trashy areas enable trash mindsetters.
Like the broken windows theory
Exactly.
So what you're saying is that a piece of garbage in Washington DC is unprecedential.
The people who run Washington DC are unpresidential.
I'm most concerned with the fact that he was ever up at 430 am to begin with
Timezones dude.
>->
Unrelated. But I read it as president that is garbage should not be there in the first place Ahem MERICA
I wanna shine a huge spotlight on the last one. If everyone would take a few seconds to place themselves in other people's shoes and genuinely try to understand their situations and feelings this would be a much better world. We are scared by things that are different, but those end up being the most interesting experiences we can grow from.
Too many values systems don't hold up under scrutiny. People are generally terrified of having the foundation of their sense of self questioned, even by comparison. It doesn't matter if its religion, politics, morals, or just belonging to a particular popular subculture. People want to feel like the heroes in their own story, and will avoid things that call that into question.
The act of questioning those systems can itself be something to rally around. We can be the heroes of our stories, slaying value systems which don't hold up.
Absolutely this. I'm sure a lot of people are like me in that they are successful now, but fucked up a bunch when they were young. Whenever I hear about something someone has done, I always have to ask myself if it's something I could have seen myself doing 15 years ago. Most of the time, it is. We need less judgment and more genuine advice. And we need to stop putting people into "the system" for stupid and inconsequential crimes.
It seems like nobody wants to put themselves into the shoes of someone who's homeless and down on life.. I went from making 85k a year at a fortune 500 company to the streets and damn did people look down on me and treat me like complete shit. The nicest people to me were the fellow street people which was crazy. I can see how if you haven't been in that position before how you can look down your nose at those people
Exactly this! I'm 26 and I've worked MANY types of jobs. Each one has left me with a new-found respect for others with "lower" jobs. It's amazing how much respect you can gain if you just walk in someone's shoes. I'm especially kind and thankful for manual laborers and service workers of all types.
I would also love to add to this. When you try to see something from someone else's point of view, don't just do it for those you feel sorry for. Do it for those you don't like, the people you disagree with, the guy who is being a jerk, the people who say hateful things. Try to gain an empathetic understanding of them, not only so you learn not to hate them, but so maybe you will know how to change their minds.
Totally. Its frightening to me how easily the people around me are willing to dismiss half the population of America as inhuman because they voted for Trump, and can "only possibly have done so because they are ignorant racists".
On the flip side, the other side that sees anyone who doesn’t support Trump as “deep state paid shills,” or whatever the relevant combination of buzzwords is this week, is just as frightening.
Oh absolutely! I just live in California and don't watch fox news so I tend to see only one side of the echo chamber in my day to day.
But then you should also try and understand their perspective as well. His platform was (in a big way) to tap into people's fear of minorities. It's probably hard for them to feel empathy when they have a bunch of problems because they're a minority and then have people vote for the one dude telling everyone that his people are rapists. Know what I mean?
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Yeah. I think that the left is as against going after undocumented immigrants as the right is against new gun laws. Booths sides need to compromise and be reasonable.
As someone who supports DACA and is against the wall I don't think that handing people over to ICE when they get out of jail is wrong. We depend on the work of immigrants and shouldn't punish them but we don't need to protect actual criminals.
We have lost our ability to communicate without hostility and have lost our trust in each other. That is sad.
Absolutely! It seems like everyone claims that the other side has these extreme views but I bet in reality we would find a lot more common ground if we weren’t so tribal about our politics. Also the two party system is just awful
The biggest problem is how both sides are demonizing the other, leading them to double down on their own stands and pushing forward worse and worse candidates.
I couldn't vote for either of them last election.
I must say that I do dismiss those that still support Trump now. There's just no excuse at this point other than indoctrination, stupidity, or malice. I can see no rational worldview in which he can be considered anything close to a competent or even a mediocre president.
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I don't have a trip to the rust belt planned in the near future, but maybe you could explain it to me.
You are validating OP's point.
Edit: not OP but the reply about dismissing a large portion of the country.
I support trump because he is our president and I want him to do well. That doesn't mean being a Trumpet, nor does it mean I can't criticize perceived failings. On the other hand, criticizing him when needed doesn't mean being in lockstep with the Democratic party's automatic "anti trump" stance like republicans were with Obama. We should want him to do well. Blasting him for literally anything and everything does not help anyone or anything.
Trump doing well =/= the country doing well. I still can't understand why some people keep pushing for that mentality. Worry about your local community and state instead, it will affect you significantly more in the long run.
Well when I say I want him to do well, I'm including the country in that. If the country does badly because of him then he is not doing well. He does well by doing well for the country, not putting his own interests at the expense of the country's. That's what I mean by I want the president to do well because he's our president.
Yeah but balance for everything. Ive found I tend to look ay the different perspectives too much and now im always playing devils advocate. People get annoyed with that fast.
I think this is the 'Reddit syndrome' which infects us all to a certain degree...
I tend to try doing this and not too harshly judging someone in traffic. If they rush past to merge in front of me, I think about situations where that might be ok. Could they be rushing to get to the hospital to see their dying Mother?
I dedicate a lot of my thinking time to trying to empathize and understand people. It might be because I suck at it, or there could be any number of other reasons, but the more I do it the more I realize how awful it was to be so thoughtless in the past, and how little I understand other people, even when they're very similar to me...
I think trying to put oneself in other people's shoes is the most difficult thing of all because it requires a lot of imagination, it does not make one feel good about oneself in my experience, and the more one does of it in general the worse one feels.
But there are a mountain of good reasons for doing it anyway. It's just that I can totally understand why people don't do it.
Probably because I put in the effort to think about it from their perspective... ^_^
We judge others by their actions and ourselves by our intentions.
I agree!
I wish it was that easy :(
Unfortunately, a lot of people just don't possess empathy and they are never taught compassion, so thinking about another point of view is not even something they can comprehend. Poor parenting, an abusive upbringing, or simply genetics can really fuck people up.
shine . . . shoes . . .
GO GET YOUR SHINEBOX!
Empathy is a trait that humanity has always inherently lacked because it’s not an inherent trait, it’s an acquired one.
that's a tough one, trying is easy but to actually immerse yourself in their story and situation is another.
Did you put yourself in their shoes though? Maybe they have a tough time thinking about other people
/s
Please please please people put your shopping carts back, you have no idea how frustrating it is to see the cart mere inches away from the corrals in the parking lot. Also, don’t smile at me as you leave the cart where it isn’t supposed to be, that just makes you look like an even bigger asshole.
Christ why would someone do that (smile thing)? What a tool.
They think they’re doing me a favor most likely, but it completely ruins the flow.
Ergh.
That’s the noise I make every time I see it happen.
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When you’re in a grocery store parking lot, everyone sees what you’re doing. You’re never safe from judgement.
"Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I have found. It is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love."
I really like that, where is that from?
The Hobbit.
Thank you.
The other day I ran into the grocery store for a bag of m&m’s (my brother and his friends were visiting and my dog ate his friend’s bag of m&ms so I was getting him a new bag). I was in a hurry as the boys were getting ready to leave for a cruise any minute. The lines were so long. This one guy sent his wife to my lane to tell me to go in front of them at their register as they were up and could tell I was in a rush. It was such a simple gesture but I won’t forget it!
That is really nice of them :) I'm glad you will remember it. Also side note chocolate is toxic to dogs so I hope your dog is ok.
Yeah, we kept a close eye on him but he was totally fine. Thankfully it didn’t phase him other than pooping out candy wrapper and whole almonds for the next 24 hours (chocolate covered almond m&ms).
I only found out he had eaten them because I found a corner of the wrapper on the rug. He destroyed all other evidence. Turns out, he went into the guest bedroom, into this guy’s backpack, dug past the Chex mix and sour patch kids for the m&m’s on the bottom. I’m still amazed.
Gotta love it. I'm often amazed at what my pets will do, too. I'm glad he's ok!
I need to find out why that would be. I have had dogs that eat dead things, poop, random bits of garbage that smell enticing to them but, somehow delicious chocolate is bad for them. Go figure.
Compliment people.
This is the easiest and best answer. Giving someone a compliment is SO easy and doesn't impact your life much at all. But receiving a compliment is something you remember for a long time. It's so easy to turn someone's day around with just a couple of words. Why not do it today?
My friend group changed at one point and my newer friends compliment each other and me way more often. The difference it makes on a person's life is astounding. It takes a little effort to know what a person is proud of, but when you can pinpoint that and offer a compliment it makes a world of difference.
An important note, compliments leave an incredibly lasting impact when they are free of any sort of motive and seemingly out of the blue. If someone tells you about a new outfit they bought and are wearing it's of course nice to compliment them. If you notice they're dressed up and mention it before they do that's the kind of thing I personally remember for years down the line.
Great comment! I hope the weather is nice where you're at.
This is the hardest for me. Everything else is fine.
Yup! I really brightens people's days and takes 2 seconds, not hard at all to do.
I make it a practice to recognize when someone does a good job whether it is a grocery bagger or whatever. You can almost see their spirits rise before your eyes.
The only issue here is that you have to watch out for sexual harassment perceptions in the professional workplace.
Most adults don't have a problem with interacting with other humans in this manner.
What is the person you are complementing is a woman in her 20s that is also attractive?
"Hey Sandra, I really appreciated your help last week on the Marketing workshop, you really know your stuff, thanks."
PHEW lawsuit avoided by the skin of my teeth!
Well, you start by seeing that woman as a human being instead of some weird other species. A genuine compliment about how helpful or thoughtful she just was or how good she is at her job? Cool. A weird compliment about her appearance that highlights that you are just seeing her as a potential conquest? Not so cool.
Exactly this. And a lot of men don't seem to realize that you can in fact compliment someone's appearance without being predatory. Do they have a new hairstyle that looks nice? Tell them! An article of clothing that complements their figure? Say "hey that's a really nice _____". None of that usually comes across as creepy unless you've been creepy to them before and none of it implies that you are trying to get into their pants (side note: straight men need to learn how to compliment their other male friends. Then they'll stop thinking that compliments and general human kindness = sexual attraction)
Sometimes I wonder if some Redditors grew up thinking Sid James and Carry On was real world advice on communication.
"Oi Sandra, go fetch lunch and don't forget to bring yer BAPS"
The fact that people need to be told to do this when I (who I consider an immature asshole) do like half of these things shows the sorry state of this country (USA), if not the world.
Plus you get the reward of feeling like a decent human being every day.
And also remember that people are only as good as the things we were taught, if you were brought up with good values and a father who taught you how to " go and get it and get things done" but the other kid hasn't known anything besides video games and problems at home it's not his fault, teach him instead. Understanding it's not their fault makes me more inclined to be nicer to them and that may be anyone.
Absolutely. I learned all of this from 2 people who made me feel like I was loved and that I should try to be a better person. They changed my POV as I grew up with abusive parents. Taking time to show someone what is right, and teach them how to be kind, will often truly pay off.
being kind is one of the most important lessons that I'm teaching my kids. I also put a lot of importance on just being a nicer person so I appreciate you comments. Thanks :)
Fantastic, you are making the world a better place by raising kids who are kind and considerate. I am truly happy to read that.
Let people merge in traffic if it's safe to do so
This isn't just about safety. I live in a very large city where people are always trying to skip the line and cut in front of everyone because they think their time is more valuable than everyone else's. I always let people merge when they just want to change lanes, but if I'm in a lineup, there's no way in hell I'm letting anyone cut in line. It's never acceptable to cut in any other lines in life, so why should it be any different when you can hide in the privacy of your own car?
I don't do it for assholes tbh. I should prob edit the post, I do a ton of highway driving and was referring more to there being a safe distance to let someone merge on a highway, or if a lane abruptly closes (accident for instance), letting someone in.
Put the shopping cart back.
Also, take a shopping cart from the parking lot into the store with you.
You are awesome!
thanks but it is not much that I do. It's just tiny things.
I used to chastise people for dropping litter. Now I just pick it up and put it in the bin if it’s only gonna take a second - whatever. Fuck the gross person who dropped it.
A big part of this is also acknowledging other people’s efforts!
Thank people who hold the door, stop to let you cross the street, let you go in line at the store, let you merge in. It’s beyond frustrating when a courteous act or gesture gets completely ignored. I don’t need a parade put on, but a simple thank-you or wave of acknowledgment goes a long way.
I agree with you, that irritates me too. And I agree I don't want a parade but saying thanks or, even a smile, goes a long way.
I honestly thought everything you listed was just expected behavior
It should be but I (sadly) rarely see it.
A couple of months ago I was queuing with my sandwich, crisps and muffin (healthy lunch I know) and a little old lady asked me if I was on my lunch break and when I said that I was she let me go in front. It was such a sweet gesture
I love that you remember it, even months later :)
If I had one thing I could do to this world, one thing I could curse my enemy with, it would be empathy. Could you just imagine how the world would be if people actually thought of others and how their actions affected people? And all the shitheads would rightly be miserable thinking of all the harm they caused...but then I'd empathize with them and realize it was because they were ignorant, and forgive them. Damn! Well so much for that idea!
Hmm a circle of empathy leads to world peace - if everyone had it, it could work. I feel like some people might be super depressed from it though, like some people can handle tough feelings, others really can't.
So basically, be a decent human being. It’s really not that difficult.
It's really not! I don't understand why more people don't do it.
It's really easy and becomes easier the more you do it.
So basically do the exact opposite of what everyone in South Florida does. Got it.
Having been to South Florida sadly I have to agree
And most importantly, wear sunscreen.
Good song!
I try to do these things because it makes me feel better. I often struggle with self worth issues, but when I stop to do something extra to help those around me I feel like I'm worth a shit.
You are worth something and you're important and you're good for trying to help others.
The best part about doing stuff like this is the reactions you get. People where I live are so jaded and busy and exhausted that even the tiniest expression of kindness gets hugely appreciated
I love that, too, it makes my whole day better when someone shows appreciation for it. And just think, if they react that way, it means you brightened their day, and they might in turn be kind to someone else!
We need more of this good chain-reaction stuff
Think about things from other's perspectives.
This is huge. So many people live in their own bubbles
It's very easy to apply your own strengths and upbringing to how you think about other people. I have to constantly remind myself that they could be very different from me when I see people having a hard time or making "stupid" mistakes with things I find easy.
I have concluded that there are no big or small problems, only problems that are big or small to the person going through it (and the straw that broke the camel's back)
Isn't that the sad truth. We can really learn a lot from each other if we listen and try to see their POV. Even if we don't agree, we may learn.
Put the shopping cart back.
Please do this. It’s so easy. There’s dropoff points all over the parking lot, and you make the cart runner’s job much simpler by doing so. Other upsides? A few more steps of exercise and fresh air, nobody’s car gets dinged up, world peace achieved.
I know! Its hard for me to understand people who don't do this.
Clearly, they just want to watch the parking lot burn.
Maybe they have never found a series of hash mark scratches on the side of their car from a runaway cart.
One of my goals for this year was to be more vocal when I appreciate something someone does. You would be amazed how happy people look when you say "Hey Susan, thank you for getting me that report yesterday. I really appreciate that I can count on you." It makes people go above and beyond when I need help with something.
I’ve really been trying to compliment my friends more lately and let them know how much I appreciate them. It can be sort of awkward (maybe just because it isn’t my typical personality to do that stuff) at first but I know that it feels amazing to hear that stuff, even if it’s kind of laughed off in the moment.
I have started a new habit, I look for the shopping carts left in the parking lot and I try and bring one back into the store regardless if I need one or not. I have been walking more and picking up bits of litter. Lead by example.
Put the shopping cart back.
And good god, put them back properly. At my grocery store, there are 2 types of carts (basically, one small and one large), and they only "stack" with carts of the same type.
The cart return areas are unusable tangled messes because people can't be bothered to spend the extra 3 seconds to put their type of cart along with the other carts of the same type. They think that as long as it's physically in the cart return area, it doesn't matter if it's facing the same way as the other carts or not, blocking a neatly stacked row of carts someone else made, or even on its side altogether.
Sometimes I get the feeling that our current level of rudeness is a recent and unsustainable phenomenon. Surely folks couldn't have always been so rude or indifferent to each other - didn't we used to smile and greet one another on the street or make small talk with cashiers, just ordinary everyday things that made life seem a little bit more human? At least that's the impression I get from my grandparents and old TV shows.
It seems like rudeness is like a feedback loop, one rude interaction changes your worldview just a bit and you are consequently more likely to be rude. Or even just indifference and distance could be self perpetuating. It requires active work and stepping outside the comfort zone of your own negative worldview to break the cycle, which fewer and fewer people seem willing to do.
I think that is the case too (negative feedback loop), but if it is, the bright side is that an act of kindness could help break it. Also I tend to agree it is fairly recent, yes of course there were assholes in the past - major assholes - but all in all at least in US society I think there was more courtesy.
I used to get so angry when someone tried to merge in front of me, but now I actually stop and always let at least one person go before me. It costs you about 4 seconds and you probably make someone's day when you let them merge.
I agree and its awesome that you let them. Also, I love your user name.
Thank you. The merging thing especially. My husband tends to be a more aggressive driver (not road ragey) and tends to believe that making more aggressive choices while driving is safer. He is picky at me when I’m the one driving because I’m maybe overly courteous and careful instead of decisive. But I’ve been in car wrecks before and would much rather slow down and let someone merge than race forward to try to get ahead. I make sure not to go below the speed limit (because that’s unsafe) and stay in the right lane as much as I can rather than constantly going to the left lane to stay ahead.
I really like this one. It's how I try to live my life.
Good :) that makes me happy.
I try to do all of these things then I begin to question it all when someone refuses to let me merge or sleights me in the smallest way.
I used to get mad at that a lot too. But to be honest I think I have sort of trained myself to tune it out now unless someone does something extremely rude in which case I will call them out on it if possible (example, someone cut me on line in the work cafeteria and I told them "excuse me, I was here first").
That's the way to be, honestly. Despite knowing it is unhealthy, I question why I adhere to moral principles when others don't. It can seem unfair at times.
This is a really good point. The rat race can bring out the worst in people, and so stupid shit like not letting people merge can make you feel like you're "winning". But none of this little crap matters. It's so much better to do an unexpected little kind thing for someone by letting them go first, especially when it makes their day and they shoot you a big smile. I try to do this for others as often as I can, and the appreciation I get is totally worth it. Makes me feel much better about my fellow humans.
Absolutely agree with everything you wrote, and good on you :).
Just as important as letting someone merge. When it is extended to you. Give them that little " thank you kind stranger" wave.
This is the basic foundation of Japan.
I weirdly know a lot about Japanese culture and noticed this, too.
My current job exists because of people littering and people not pushing shopping carts back. I’m annoyed by people but I also get paid to fix up the place. It’s a weird double edged sword.
But still I agree with you. Put your carts back and please don’t litter. It’s good for the environment and your health in the long term.
I have often heard that argument from offenders. "But someone will be paid to do it."
It rings hollow as it sounds more like a convenient excuse for laziness.
I'd like to add, just be a bit kinder, especially to people working in stores. It takes you two seconds to put the shirt you tried on the fitting rack. It's not going to hurt you to politely ask the cashier to explain a coupon or a deal to you. If you don't want an item, hand it to the cashier, don't leave it out to rot or in some obscure location. Nobody is going to shame you for not wanting an item.
It just makes the worker's day ten times easier if you make that one extra step. It also makes your shopping experience ten times better, because it makes cleaning and maintaining that much easier.
I SO agree with this! I almost feel like people should have to work in retail for a few months to understand how to treat the people working in stores.
Last week I was at Wal-Mart, and employees were rounding up carts in the parking lot. I stuck my cart in the train he was busy making to make his job (hopefully) a little easier :D
I have to also add - Let people be nice people, if someone wants to feel good and extend kindness to you like paying your total forward with their purchase and there's no weird implication you feel from it, politely declined but ultimately be okay with them doing it if they really want to.
Back when I was working in a cafe I'd have people ask the next person in line what they wanted and to let them pay it forward, and the person lost it with anger like it was insulting someone would offer to pay for their things and they HAVE money, they don't NEED someone to pay for their things. It was such a drastic emotion compared to the person simply wanting to be a kind person. It happened a lot more often than you'd think.
Ahh that is so odd!But honestly, I believe you, people can be strange. I'd be super grateful if someone did that for me.
One time my debit card was declined and the guy behind me paid it for me. It was almost 40 buck so I was shocked and so grateful.
See you remember this, it stuck with you. Maybe some day if you have the means you can pay it forward. Even if not financially, you can pay it forward in other acts of kindness.
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I do it mostly on highways as I do a lot of highway driving. Usually I end up at an accident site where a lane abruptly ends, then I let someone in.
Except that you cannot merge if every car is bumper to bumper on the lane they want to merge. So slow down and give space for the car to get into the lane? I don't get it.
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I think a lot of us city drivers are talking about traffic merges when we say "let people merge".
The on-ramp merge, for example, where ideally cars merge in a zipper fashion (right left right left) into the bumper-to-bumper expressway traffic. Some people just refuse to abide by even this simple "rules of lines" sort of behavior and it increases the snarl for everyone.
Sure. All that stuff, but I refuse to yield the way to people who rush to the front when they know the lane ends. I will road vigilante their ass til the state takes my lisence away.
That i understand I feel similarly, if you treat me like an asshole I won't be nice. But if it's someone who legitimately needs to get in and aren't being douchey I try my best to let them in.
That's exactly what they're supposed to do though. It is the most efficient way that creates the least length of backup. It's called the zipper merge and it sounds like you're the one in the wrong here.
This! The road is there for a reason! It's meant to be used! If you don't let them merge, you're the problem! You create the backup!
In the US, there are dashed lines for areas where ABC merge into AB. These are not designed as "drive until the end of C, then merge at the last possible moment". These are designated as merge-at-will zones, and you should merge when it is safe to do so. The problem with running up to the end then merging as the lane ends, creates massive slowdowns if the lead car is unable to merge at or near speed, and causes the entire C lane to become a cluster of cars at multiple speeds trying to rapidly merge to avoid the cars that have had to slow down ahead of them. Merge as soon as possible in the dashed lanes to avoid this issue.
Well yes, you should merge at will before you get to the end of the lane of course. But it's not meant to be left completely empty just because it ends a mile down the way. For one reason or another, whether it's their own doing or not, people will find themselves at the end of the lane. When you are in the other lane, you have to let them merge into yours.
I've come across a few instances where people have been slowing down and sometimes altogether stopping at the highway entrance/on-ramp exit so they can get into an early gap, leaving a whole quarter mile of road ahead of them empty and everyone trapped behind. It's infuriating. I would rather they slowed near the end than cause some of the massive backups I've been a part of.
No. This works when ABC lanes turn into AB, but that's not the issue.
The issue OP is referring to is when there are lanes AB that are evenly operating below 10mph, then lane C exists for a short stretch as an exit lane. When people go from B to C, speed past a lot of cars and force their way back into B, it mathematically must slow down B because they are interrupting a smooth flow in B.
I don't think it's clear that is what OP is referring to, but if is then I agree.
zipper/late merging is the safest way of dealing with a lane ending :(.
Most places encourage late merging, some places will even fine you for merging early.
So I'm not sure about where op is taking about but what I see is that a right lane becomes an exit only lane for a high volume exit, like 80% of drivers on the highway. So a lot of people go down the middle lane until the exit only, high volume right lane physically splits from the highway. They will cut into the lane at that point, slowing down the already slow exit lane. Or the inverse, a road has a ton of traffic and the right lane becomes a little used exit only lane. People get in the exit only lane and merge back into traffic right before that exit splits.
These people are my nemeses.
If the road is there to be used, then they can use it. Doesn't matter if they keep changing lanes. What matters is if you prevent them from merging or if they're being unsafe.
If there's space next to a line of people waiting, there's no problem jumping to the front of the line?
Yeah pretty much. If that actually will let me cut the line, and not "oops this doesn't actually let me cut the line", thenyes, the empty space is there so the line won't be as long.
But you just took the place of someone else who has been waiting on that line. You've just made the line longer
That's not really how traffic works
It really is
It really isn't
Ftfy
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That depends though. You can constantly change lanes safely lol
"Safely" changing lanes does not mean avoid changing lanes. If you are doing it safely, you can keep it up all the day long, back and forth from one side to the other.
This is how traffic jams happen
Only if you're doing it wrong lol. Read where I said you can do it safely
It's not about safety. It's about slowing down a line of moving cars by interrupting it and making the person behind you hit the brakes
That sounds like unsafe lane changing to me if you're close enough to make someone hit the brakes...
You can't account for how other people react to you
What's your point?
I see assholes like you every day driving like you don't have to follow the same rules. You make traffic worse. You can rationalize it as much as you want, but you are the reason traffic gets as bad as it does.
I see idiots like you waiting in line when you don't have to, or getting mad just because someone passed you (God forbid it was a police car!), or taking it upon themselves to force everyone else on the road to follow your personal made up rules of conduct.
But that's not even what we're talking about here. If it's safe to change lanes, you can do it all you want. How are you objecting to that?
You think basic line etiquette is a personal mode of conduct? Man you are one self absorbed asshole.
Just when you don't have to be waiting in line, and you insist on doing it anyway.
There's a difference between zipper merging at flow speed, and zipping up the exit and forcing your way into traffic, or worse, passing in the merging lane
Sometimes it's an asshole with no respect for his fellow drivers
And sometimes it's an out of Towner who's lost, or a nervous driver not used to the traffic, or a desperate potential father trying to get his wife to the hospital before the baby shows up, or worse a driver trying to get to the hospital for more dire reasons.
Point is you don't know why a person is driving shitty, and not every reason is because they are a shitty person.
Please, for everyones sake, assume the best of everyone on the road. Your micro interactions on your daily commute dont have to be full of slights from random people. They can instead be full of opportunities to do something nice for someone having a hard time.
This shit drives me crazy on my drive home. It's about 20mi through Portland, OR to get back up to WA where I live. So many one lane exits that people fly up and merge back into traffic just backing it up even further.
The one I hate the most is where US26 splits into 3 exits for all 3 lanes, and the left lane is always backed up and people fly up the center lane and merge last second. Drives me crazy.
Eh, I don't trust people to know the situation - if you're paying attention to the road as you should be, making a correct assumption about why someone's trying to merge at that moment is hard. I was recently in a situation where I had to pull over to let an ambulance pass. When I tried to merge back in (this was from a lane that was closed just ahead of me due to construction), this lady yelled at me for being entitled. I'm sure she assumed the situation was exactly as you described, that she thought I was trying to sneak in right at the end. It was a shitty feeling.
Edit: I also want to say that I've noticed people make this assumption about folks who are merging late because they're unfamiliar with the road. I've had that happen in cities I've never been in before, and the stress of trying to navigate while people are giving you the stink eye / not letting you merge is also shitty.
It's hard to make the world a better place, but it's much easier to make your world a better place
Tiny little things add up. They won't change huge things but if you make someone's day better, they might in turn do something kind, and so on, and even if they don't, even if you just brighten their day for a minute or two, you did something good, and that is more than enough on its own.
So true. When I get overwhelmed by the chaos in the world, I get to cleaning. I may not be in a position to solve world problems but gol-dang it, my yard will be a model of neat and orderly.
I don’t want to pat myself on the back here, but I find that all this is standard for me. I think it’s a sign of good parenting. Good job mum and dad..
Good, that is awesome! I wish it was standard for more people.
I've been actively trying to live this mindset for a while now. It's not always easy, but it does help me feel pretty good as well when I'm able to do something even minutely nice for someone else-- stranger or no
Good, that is so great. I think over time it really makes you feel more positive in general.
In other words, just be a decent human being lol.
Yes, sad how rarely people do it.
Let people merge in traffic if it's safe to do so
I live in the Chicago suburbs and any time I visit a different city, I am so shocked when people actually let me merge. In Chicago, if you turn on your turn signal everyone takes it as a giant "fuck you" and will run you off the road before they let you get in. It's like people never got over the concept of people cutting them in line when they were kids.
NJ is like that too. Especially northern NJ by NYC. I think people might be nicer in the south. I don't get it either.
Yeah, I think it's a metropolis problem. Everyone is fighting over every inch of space around them on the roads because the infrastructure can never seen to handle the congestion.
A fellow practitioner of random acts of kindness I see! A philosophy I try to live by. Upvote for you:)
I try to do most of these things except compliment random people. I don’t I’ve ever done that in my life.
Does not have to be a random person, can be anyone, friends family coworkers.
That’s true! But I’ll also try to make an effort to compliment strangers too since you never know who’s having a bad day and can use a little pick-me-up. :D (sorry for the late reply lol)
I was buying groceries and the dude behind me only had a box of laxatives. Felt for him, let him pass, gave him a knowing nod.
When you can, pick up trash or fix/straighten things.
This. This. A hundred times this. Hope you get 100 reddit golds, buddy.
thanks honestly I just hope people consider some of this and put it into practice.
I always feel like an asshole but it never occurs to me not to do these things. Thank you for making me feel a bit better about myself.
I do most of these because I'm inherently a timid person lol
I'll add learn how to properly drive your vehicle through an uncontrolled intersection and yield to pedestrians
This is great and so true. One of my own life mantras is "Leave the world better than you found it."
It seems super heavy, but really applies to daily life. Leave a room or meeting with positivity and goals. Pick up a piece of trash you didn't leave (and all that you did). I always strive to have interactions and goal plans to better my patients, sometimes to their own frustrations.
Imagine the world we would live in if we all just stuck to that goal.
I love that quote and and I totally agree with you, the world would be a massively better place, and really it takes so little. I imagine your patients truly appreciate your help, at least most probably do.
This sounds like Canada. I live in Chicago and people are rude, cut you off and never let you go in the front of the line when shopping. I found this to be the case in both eastern and western Canada. Shout out to Alberta
I try to do most of these things, but your first bit of advice is a little tough. I tend to take long strides when I walk, so small steps are just unnatural for me. It’s one of those things I’ll have to work on I guess.
someone farted once and I took the blame.
Where’s my gold?
hahaha. tbh if someone did that for me I'd be so grateful to them. Not that I tend to fart in public, but if it happened on accident and someone said it was them? Person is my new friend.
Try to take small steps to be a better person.
We should create organizations that people can/should participate in regularly that help remind them to do this!
I think once you make an effort to do it for a few weeks it starts becoming second nature, I started trying 4-5 years ago and now its kinda second nature to me to let people merge or put carts back, etc.
Put the shopping cart back.
Please. For the love of all that is good and holy.
The world could use more compassion. Unfortunately it's difficult to always give compassion when human emotions are always coming up. It takes real work sometimes, but it's worth it.
It really is.
great response. not looking for compliments, but I held the door open for a couple the other day at the store and the gentleman promptly said "Well, it looks like there are still good people in this world."
Small thing I know, but WE ALL LIVE ON THE SAME PLANET HERE!! hah just think if you were in the other person's situation, how would you act/respond?
Nice of you and see how his reaction stuck with you? I bet it felt good to hear. I agree we are all here we should try our best to be decent to each other.
I just started reading some of the comments after I commented (I know, selfish of me), but yeah, totally agree that the good compliments stick longer than the bad events more often than not.
Put the shopping cart back.
One thing that I've been doing when I arrive at the store is bringing back the stray cart someone left in the parking lot. I figure that the car dent I might be saving someone will be worth the few extra steps.
Awesome :) that is good of you. And it is worth it, as someone who has had their car dented because they didn't see a stray cart at nighttime.
Also, if a new counter opens up, let people waiting before you go in first.
Educate yourself about mass surveillance and its effects on the psyche. Consider using a VPN and other software to protect yourself.
I like PIA, it's cheap, fast, and effective. Yar.
I'm younger (26) and it's gone on long enough so I feel hesitant to ask. Can you direct me to a break down of how a VPN works and what are some of the pros/cons? My old roommates and friends say this all the time and I just nod, but have no clue how any of it works.
Think of it as having a new ISP, except one that doesn't monitor what you do and encrypts everything. With PIA, you pay the 40 bucks for the year, install it, and then have it connect to a server. It then covers your butt and you can do things like shop at indian pharmacies or download torrents off the pirate bay without getting legal action.
*Be sure to set your settings to disable internet access if PIA is disconnected if your are torrenting, just to be on the safe side.
https://thatoneprivacysite.net/
That's everything you need to know from a logistical standpoint.
Now for my two cents:
Remember that VPN's are another company still. Just because you don't trust Comcast doesn't suddenly mean that some VPN company is more trustworthy. Understand the limitations of a VPN, evaluate whether or not your use case validates the implementation of a VPN, and then vet the VPN company to the best of your ability.
At the end of the day, if you didn't build it yourself and you don't admin it yourself, then all you're doing is handing all your traffic from one anonymous employee at a corporation to some other anonymous employee at some other corporation.
See the following post for details on the limitations of VPN's and why it's important to keep a realistic understanding of what situations they are actually useful for:
https://gist.github.com/joepie91/5a9909939e6ce7d09e29
surprised this isnt higher.
Also dont do facebook
Recycling. Sending recyclable materials to landfill is heinous.
It's not just that, but people should pay attention to the other two R's. My friend used to drink water bottles exclusively and thought it was fine because he recycled it. Reduce, man.
Or at the very least Refill the plastic ones and use them till they break or you lose them. (My strategy since I always lose mine)
I would avoid this actually because a certain a carcinogenic chemical is released when plastic water bottles are exposed to sunlight I believe. I use a hydroflask and it's great because it keeps my water cold all day.
http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/causes-of-cancer/cancer-controversies/plastic-bottles-and-cling-film
Uk Cancer society disagrees but, a website called ban the bottle agrees with you.
https://www.banthebottle.net/articles/plastic-water-bottles-can-release-cancer-causing-toxins/
You can decide which one is more reliable.
Hmmm
Do cancer researchers want us to stop getting cancer though? 😯
My family got a bunch of plastic water bottles last year when there was a hurricane headed our way. I use them to water my indoor plants now.
Finally got my mom to stop drinking plastic water bottles. Bought her a Kodi cup, (Local store brand of yeti) and some reusable (plastic) straws. The straws are durable and she's had them for 3 years now and refused to use a disposable one now.
I did this with my dad! He would always get so mad when I would bring my nalgene around (of course I would, I know it's mine and it holds so much more water) and I finally broke down how many plastic bottles he goes through in a month, let alone the wrap they come packaged in, and finally he found a reusable cup he loves! No more lugging around tons of flimsy bottles around, AND there's less waste coming from our family!
Good on you!
Reduce and Reuse are really things that need to take place on a industrial level. Personal changes are going to amount to very little change.
Changing people's habits can have a huge impact over time, especially in the aggregate. Even if you just take one person who drinks one bottle of water a day, then that is 365 a year. If you have a family of 4 that adopt the same habit, then that is over 1,400 bottles a year. If they drank 2 a day, then the numbers are even more appreciable. Extend that a life long habit and the numbers quickly become less trivial. I agree the individual consumers pails in the comparison to commercial use, but I do not believe that gives people a free pass to not try to reduce their waste. Also habits are contagious and changing your habit can inadvertently cause more people to be more conscientious on the amount of waste they produce.
It also has to do with water quality. When bottled water became a thing I think people started looking more closely at their municipal water supply. Like I live in a big city but my own recycling hippy mother who drank city water for years started buying bottled after reading the studies on water quality.
The water in the town we live in now is really hard and tastes terrible so we installed a water filter. It actually tastes better than my favorite bottled so I don’t buy bottled anymore. I have no idea if it’s actually healthier or if that even makes a difference but I drink a lot more now so there’s that too.
Starting to look into doing that myself. Especially with things like glass jars, I figure I can clean them up and reuse them for storage, even as a Tupperware replacement. I'll have to get inventive with other things though, like milk jugs. Though it may just be better to recycle those in the end.
One option to reuse milk jugs is to plant in them! (cut the tops off). There was an epic hanging garden in r/gardening a while back; it was made out of milk jugs hung onto supports by their handles. But glass jars FTW!
Oh that's a great idea! I actually repurposed a jug last year to water my garden, so that would be a great expansion!
Fuck, it annoys me that so often at the shops near me bananas come in plastic bags... WHY!!!! They come in their own protective skin! They even come in bunches! You just put a bunch of bananas in a plastic bag!
Wow I have never seen bananas in plastic bags! Apples and oranges, yes, but never bananas. Honestly, I don't know why grocery stores don't move to a bagless system and just sell reusable bags that people need to bring. It would probably end up being cheaper in the end anyway to cut down on packaging costs.
They do, sort of. Your banana in its plastic bag goes in a reusable plastic bag. At some shops, at others it goes in a regular plastic bag but you do have to pay £0.05 for it.
Reading and righting?
I get my water at work. I reuse maybe 3 big water bottles and bring them home.
And compost! Food does not belong in the trash.
Right, I forgot that one. My city gave out compost bins about a year ago so I've gotten into that
Yes ! I’m 22 and from a family that never really tried with the environment thing. I just started (i wish i started sooner, but habits are hard to break) really paying attention to what i used and what could be reused. Also organizing small hikes with friends where we bring garbage bags so we can clean up the areas around us ! We’re an active group, so it’s not like we wouldn’t be there anyways!
Well look at you! Glad to see there are people out there making a difference, keep it up!
These days I think there's 5. I don't know the other two because they weren't in cartoons when I was five. I also think there's now too many for the current fibe year olds to learn them all.
Also - do your due diligence in finding out whether your city/town actually recycles. Friend of mine recently found out that her city pretended to recycle but didn't due to costs (Meaning they'd collect it separately but all ended up in the same place). She would drive her recycling over to a neighboring one that actually did.
Wow, that's awful. I didn't know that kind of thing went on.
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They're a reason it's last...
Reduce, reuse.....
90% of the recyclables gets shipped to China and they dump in their landfill or ocean anyway.
All it takes is one dumbass trying to recycle a Dominos Pizza box to ruin a whole load of recyclable paper.
If what you're holding has grease in it, do not proceed to the recycling bin! YOU ARE NOT HELPING
It pops up in all kinds of places. The Starbuck's that my boyfriend worked at for a while had a big, wide trash can with a lid that had different slots for trash, plastic, and glass, but was really just one bin.
The Tim's I worked at was the same. Well we had the multiple buckets, but they all went into the garbage bin in the back
Yeah, we do that at my Starbucks too. We actually do have a recycling bin that baristas use behind the counter, but the one for customers goes right to the garbage. We would recycle it, but people kept throwing out cups full of liquid and other things that obviously couldn’t be recycled, so we had to stop. We’ve even tried to pick through the bags of recycling to sort out the garbage, but like 80% of the bag was full of non-recyclables and the recycling guys kept coming in to yell at us because we missed stuff.
That’s primarily why businesses stop recycling, too. It’s not hard to have a recycling bin and leave the bags outside to be picked up otherwise.
We have recycling where I live, but I see recycling bins all the time that are stuffed with ordinary garbage. Putting all that crap into the recycling stream contaminates whatever it gets mixed up with. People need to learn what goes in the bins and what doesn't, but I'm not holding my breath that most people will do even the basics, like throwing away the greasy parts of pizza boxes.
Speaking of businesses recycling, I don't understand is why bars don't recycle. A huge amount of their garbage is glass.
my local area stopped recycling glass because they said it was cost prohibitive, which to me doesnt track, but yeah.
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I have a buddy that works as a "sorter." He says they literally sort maybe 5 things each a day, because there is just too much to sift through. Almost nothing gets recycled unless you bring it to a plant yourself.
I also assume it depends on the city, but yea.
That's because shit customers ruin the entire recycle bin with non recyclables.
I can't actually fault the mega corp for this one.
Most Starbucks are like that, depending on how easy the city makes it to recycle
That is hilarious. I'd love to see a picture.
I work at a Starbucks and we do actually recycle, so not all of them are like that.
Wawa basically.
I almost downvoted your comment because that practice made me so mad.
It happens all the time. Like when the prices of petroleum drop, then so does the recycling of plastic bottles, so those are just sent to the trash.
If a meteor of aluminum safely landed in Ohio, and was super cheap to cut pieces off of, the recycle value of soda cans would plummet.
Recycling is a business. The raw materials must have value to make it worth it.
I'm a school custodian. We have bins for plastic, paper, and glass in every school for recycling. Our whole town doesn't do glass at all and the school won't pay for extra recycle pick-up, so it all goes in the same dumpster. Landfull
My school has a recycling club where students collect recycling and drive it to the recycling center
A lot of your recycling isn't doing what you think it is. Lots of paper ends up burnt, most glass ends up as road base.
Plastic largely gets shipped to China but if its dirty or has garbage mixed in its just getting landfilled. Recycled plastic is barely useful at best, its not worth cleaning it...
Reduce and reuse > recycle
We just had to deal with our office building doing this. Asshole landlord was claiming that he didn't know our town didn't single stream. Fucking asshat.
It's super common, almost no municipalities in the united states actually recycle anything anymore. You put it in two bins, it all gets dumped in the same dump.
Even at places that intend to recycle, a lot ends up in landfills. My brother manages a recycling facility and about 1/3rd of what people put in their recycling isn't recyclable. The recyclables that do get sorted and sent out sometimes get rejected. If that happens they just take it to the closest landfill. The economics of shipping it back just don't make sense when you are only going to get $7 a ton for it.
It's a feelings based industry primarily, that's why you'd even have the other stories in this thread about different trashcans at restaurants all going into the trash.
Reducing > recycling for this reason exactly
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Well, that assumes it's a separate trip. I used to do this, I'd just haul the recycling over when I was going past the dropoff for other reasons anyway, so it wasn't much additional driving (pull in and out of the parking lot).
Theres a place in my city whete you drive up, pop your trunk, and employees haul out all the stuff you tell them too. They take everything: glass, cardboard, metals, electronics. I think its usually felons or students that do it, so labor costs are very low. Its in a centralized spot and is a single drive-through warehouse, so you're in n out in like 2 minutes tops. Super convenient.
Extra weight increases emissions anyway.
All consumer waste recycling bar aluminium is net bad for the planet. Recycling is a for-profit industry, and a greenwashed scam. Sad but true. I know this goes against everything most people have heard their whole life, but please research for yourself before instinctively downvoting.
Source please! I disagree, based on my current understanding, but am interested. It is for profit yes, and anything environmental is subject to greenwashing from what I can see, but net bad unless aluminium? Enlighten me!
Penn and Teller did a really good episode of Bullshit! on this. P&T BS on Vimeo
So without being rude is that the whole basis of your point? Or is there more? Will watch though for sure!
I'm not OP. just pointing out some interesting content on the matter.
Fair play, I was genuinely interested though. It was quite a bold statement is all! Thanks for the link
I agree - this is a very bold claim and needs a source or three to back it up.
Aluminum is worth recycling in this regard, but glass is not.
Putting out carbon emissions into the air is not the same as putting recyclable stuff into a landfill.
It's literally worse. You can dig up the landfill anytime you want, emissions are forever.
Also, exactly what they can recycle. A lot of people don't realize that disposable coffee cups are not recyclable.
...as paper products? Why
They're lined with plastic that makes it unable to be recycled.
That is bull shit!
(Not insulting you)
Even if the city had 1 machine that sorted out metals they can make a profit!
The worst thing about stuff like that is that a lot of people (generally those who weren’t entirely sold on the whole recycling thing to begin with) read about one incident of that happening once, in one city far from where they live, and they decide “well, that’s it, recycling is a scam, it all goes in the landfill anyway, I’m not going to bother”.
Both my parents are like that now, and it pains me so much when I go over theirs and see the amount they throw in the black bin…
Then convince them to reduce waste.
If they can't even be bothered to throw their cans and plastic into a separate container 1 foot to the left of the main bin then I doubt I'll have any luck at all getting them to actually make substantial changes to their lifestyle, which is what reducing waste would entail.
I think a lot of people just look for the easiest life, and have a hard time convincing that something is worth it if it takes any effort at all and they can't see a direct result. When they started doing recycling collections alongside the usual bin collections it was great, suddenly it was super easy for anyone to recycle! But the slightest little hitch will knock people back to their old, comfortable, easy habits.
My aunt also stopped recycling because her neighbour got fined for putting the wrong thing in the recycling bin, but there was no fine for just chucking everything in the black bin, so that's what she started doing just to be safe. Great job there, that local council. That's the way to motivate people. They actually changed their policy because so many people complained, but she still doesn't recycle, "just in case".
Ah I see. I meant easy things like carrying a reusable water bottle or using bar soap with paper packaging rather than shower gel with plastic. They even sell collapsible water bottles that can roll up when you're done so you can put it in your bag until you refill it
How do we know that recycling is ALWAYS better for the environment than sending it to a landfill? For example, the landfill is right in your hometown, but to get the recyclables to a recycling ppl plant may have a greater carbon footprint. Then there may be more air/water pollution to recycle then there would be to create the product new. I'm not saying recycling is bad, but in some cases it may make more sense to not recycle.
It's pretty inefficient for your friend to create extra carbon emissions on a regular basis just to individually drive her own recyclables to another town. It would make more sense to lobby her local government and try to get them to recycle, or at least re-evaluate their recycling options. That way they could batch the recyclables together and take them all at once. Sort of like taking the bus instead of everyone driving their own car.
I’m pretty sure it causes more waste to fake it.
How do you find out that kind of thing? I have heard rumors of it happening around me but o have no clue if it's true or not.
Once upon a time, the city I lived in had criminal charges pressed against someone that (possibly accidentally) put some non-recyclable materials in the recycle bin.
The end result was not only that the case was thrown out for lack of real evidence, but a LOT of people opted out of the program for fear of a criminal record for an honest mistake.
Cities need to think about incentives, in cases like this.
Which city was it?
A lot of Canadian provinces including mine have high recycling rates but saved on infrastructure by sending the recycling to China. We’re pretty much fucked now that China isn’t accepting plastic anymore and our recycling efforts are being landfilled or incinerated.
Its so they could charge more for the same service.
Happens here, too. Just because you have a recycling program, that doesn't mean anyone wants the recycled material.
Aluminum is consistently in demand, but trash pickers go around and steal it out of the recycle bins and sell it to the metal recyclers. I understand that our recycle program can't give away paper, glass, or plastic, typically, so it ends up in the landfill.
It ends up being a very expensive trash service.
She would drive her recycling over to a neighboring one that actually did.
probably wiped out any benefit to recyling then
Omg this was us!!! My SO told me he saw the garbage truck pick up the recycles too and dump it in the back of the truck with the garbage bags I was like NO WAY! So I called the company in charge and they confirmed. Omg I lost my damn mind!
How would I find out if my city’s recycling company is legitimate?
Right now where I live it’s cheaper to haul trash away than to haul recycling away. For a town in a major budget crisis this is a problem.
This shit, right here. A lot of alberta liquor containers, in particular, are just MASHED INTO FUCKING DUST. It frustrates me, as a home brewer, to know that so many great bottles are wasted.
I had been throwing away glass because I can't put it in the curbside recycling. Turns out there's a drop off point right by a restaurant I go to. So now every few Fridays it's bottles and BBQ. It gives me an excuse to go out to lunch and I'm doing something good at the same time.
The point being it may actually be pretty convenient to recycle, even if it means going to a drop-off point. Check out where they are.
I heard on the radio recently that a lot of recycling centres were established 20+ years ago when cans, paper, and glass were the main forms of packaging and film plastic and clamshell plastic were not really in circulation yet. The best thing we can do as consumers is do our best to purchase things that have as little packaging as possible AND lobby producers and packaging manufacturers to use more sustainable (compostable/easily recyclable materials) in their packaging. The radio guest suggested that packaging manufacturers be held financially liable for helping to implement recycling infrastructure for packaging they produce.
Before everyone gets the pitchforks out, many municipalities do this when their recycling facilities can't meet the capacity. Half the battle with a recycling system is just getting your citizens to participate by separating and properly rinsing their recyclables. It's generally better to keep everyone in good habits while you build/expand new recycling plants.
Obviously you should get on your local representative's ass if your local recyclables program has been a placebo for years now, but you should do some research before assuming that you've been had.
My downstairs neighbors filled the recycling tote with garbage...GARBAGE! My city has single stream recycling so all you have to do is put the recyclables in the appropriate receptacle. These people can't even do that!
Not can't, won't.
It's a personal freedom thing, you can't force people to behave as you would will them to.
Actually you can force people to behave. That's what laws and ordinances are for. There are places that fine people for doing shit like that.
I simply don't believe the USA would ever criminalize failing to recycle. Especially as it's more of a wasteful feel-good movement as opposed to a directly effective one. Meaning that there would be better more efficient ways to clean the environment with the money we waste into recycling.
http://www.aei.org/publication/john-tierney-in-ny-times-recycling-was-garbage-in-1996-its-still-that-way-today-and-the-future-looks-even-worse/
For things that activity and directly harm others behavior can be coerced outside of that I'd personally say it's highly immoral to pass coercive laws.
The height of laziness, for sure. Thing is, I'm not actually sure it would have been easier for them to do that...
My downstairs neighbors are garbage people too. We typed up a summary of guidelines because we figured maybe they just didn't know how to appropriately use the bins, but I don't think it was a misinformation problem...
Yeah, my downstairs neighbors were doing that too. If you don't give a shit, just don't recycle. At least then you're not actively making it more difficult for the recycling processor.
I just told my neighbor that it's pointless to put his beer cans in the recycling bin if each one has cigarette buds and a little beer still in them :( um duh
I live in an apartment complex and there's someone that consistently puts their fast food wrappers (sometimes with food scraps still inside) in the recycling bins.
Our city even sends out a pretty detailed and easy to understand guide twice a fucking year to every resident regarding what is and is not recycleable. When people fill bins with trash it just drives up cost, possibly to the point it isn't financially sustainable to recycle.
tl;dr don't be a lazy slob
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Funny you say that because the same neighbors let their dog poop all over the front lawn and never pick it up. Good thing we're moving on Saturday.
Have a good move :)
Unfortunately recycling can have some pretty damaging effects on the environment because of how much energy it takes to actually melt down stuff, and with materials like alumminum that takes much less energy to recycle than it does to make new aluminum the emissions released can be extremely harmful to the environment of the surrounding area and people's health.
Reduce and reuse > recycle
Do you think it's better to just put it all in a big pit somewhere out of sight and leave it there?
Every time you throw something away, remember that there is no 'away'. It's all on this planet somewhere. That's why we should reduce, reuse and then recycle.
Do you think it's better to just put it all in a big pit somewhere out of sight and leave it there?
I sort of do. For example, I once did some back-of-the-envelope calculations and figured that the entire global population could use water bottles for 1000 years, and all of the waste would fit in a 1000-yard by 1000-yard by 100-yard pit. That's actually a pretty tiny hole -- the earth is huge.
Energy seems like the FAR more important consideration to me.
Though I'm definitely open to being convinced otherwise.
If we used water bottles for 345 years would it fit in a 345^3 0.9m hole?
I mean, we've kind of got more space than we will ever know what to do with. You can make a strong argument that the permanent addition of carbon to the atmosphere from the recycling process is a lot more damaging long-term to the planet than some random dirty pit out in the middle of nowhere.
I'm all for reducing our trash output, but recycling frequently causes more problems than it solves, especially for plastic.
Reducing trash production should be emphasized.
All of the pens at my local store come in hard plastic, when they could just put them in a recycleable cardboard box like pencils are. A lot of the soap bars come with plastic wrap, while other brands do just fine with recyclable paper wrapping. Etc. Etc.
Yes, I think that it's a far better to make that wager that both recycling and automation technology will increase in the next 300years to the point where we will be far better equipped to handle any possible issue then. we could easily use a low population density state like Wyoming, cut a 10th of it as designated landfill space and have room for thousands of years of garbage.
Especially recycling paper/cardboard!
That stuff comes from a completely renewable source, breaks down quite cleanly and rapidly in a landfill, but requires a huge amount of energy and pollution to recycle. It turns out, its actually far better for the environment to implement sustainable forestry practices rather than recycling paper products!
Does it still break down good if it's packed in with plastic garbage? Don't aerobic bacteria break it down?
Unfortunately, recycling isn't the panacea that most people see it as. In fact, as of last year China is no longer accepting most of the United States recyclables, which means many of them are no longer getting processed at all. Recycling is difficult to do in an efficient and environmentally responsible manner. Often the amount of energy and environmental impact produced from recycling is worse than just landfilling the materials. NPR actually aired a great story about this just a few days ago.
Reduce > landfill
For example disposable razors produce a good bit of waste, but a safety razor is reusable forever and you just replace the razor blade (which is recyclable if you accumulate enough and put them in a metal tin). No need to throw away plastic bottles if you just carry a reusable water bottle. Some pens can use ink cartridges, and that way you only throw away the cartridge instead of the whole pen.
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Which is why we should focus on reducing and reusing
Where do people get this shit?
We have 100s of years of landfill space. Recycle if it cuts down on CO2 but don’t do t because of landfills
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/the_green_lantern/2011/02/go_west_garbage_can.html
100s of years if we never open another landfill.
I completely agree with you. The best thing we can do with carbon at this point is sequester it in the ground. I blame generations of advertising treating "recycling" as some sort of magical zero-impact solution while demonizing landfills based on overhyped media stories like the NY barge that "couldn't find space." Reality is completely different.
Finally someone talks some fuckin sense around here.
Even more than this: composting or using the garbage disposal! I get that it's genuinely hard, and not everyone can.
But if you throw an apple out in the woods, it rots, and it's fine. But in a landfill, without air, it releases methane, which is a waaaay worse green house gas than CO2.
When I moved from Michigan to Illinois I found it ridiculous how many people just threw away pop cans and bottles. In MI that would be 10 cents! Even if there's no returned money you should still recycle them.
Not advocating for not doing it, but annoying story I currently live in.. The municipality has hired a private recycling company and they have a list of items they will take, that you have to figure out on your own.. This list does not include items that are classically defined as recycleable.. They will hand pick through the bin, and flip the bin over onto the road full of whatever they didn't want..
That's terrible. Find out what materials can't be recycled and reduce your consumption of that if possible. /r/zerowaste is great for problem solving
Scientists started to do research on Landfill-Mining. How to get recyclable materials out of Landfills to reuse them. In Germany Scientists of Fraunhofer-Institute are working on it in the moment.
Some recycling programs are pickier than others. Watch what you toss in that bin lest it make things worse!
It's fairly common to declare greasy cardboard (thanks local pizza place) unrecyclable, as Chicago does.
At best, a "contaminated" block (has something in it like greasy cardboard or plastic that isn't technically recyclable) just cuts into the recycler's revenue as that block goes for below-market rates.
At worst, that whole block gets rejected by purchasers, likely ending up in a landfill instead.
My apartment complex has no recycling service, I do feel a bit bad about throwing away glass, plastic and aluminum. But not bad enough to take all that shit somewhere else.
Same here :/
I used to work for a waste sustainability consulting firm that would literally sort trash at landfills and transfer stations. The amount of recyclables in the waste stream was consistently about 28 to 34%. We worked all over the country too. The percentage holds up everywhere. This can be viewed as good news or bad I guess.
The bigger issue is does it cost more for the transfer station or landfill (most likely with a municipal recycling facility or MRF) to ship the recyclables to their buyer than they are worth. When gas prices go down the answer can quickly switch to no.
They will sit on these (in bundles or huge rectangular cubes) until it becomes profitable again until it becomes a safety and sanitation issue. Then they either dispose it or ship it to some other landfill who wants it.
Except paper and glass
My town doesn't recycle. You can put it in the recycling bin if you want, but it all ends up in the dump just the same.
So then reduce and reuse. /r/zerowaste has tons of suggestions
I blew my parents minds a little while ago when I pointed out that the 3 R’s (reduce, reuse, recycle) are in that order for a reason. Reduce your consumption, if you can’t than reuse it, and if that’s still too difficult, recycle it.
Recycling is mostly a sham. Aluminum is worth it — takes 10x more energy to make a can than recycle one. But most residential recycling is a joke because it gets soiled (eg food waste on cardboard), and it only gets “recycled” into junk materials like carpet padding.
Reduce and Reuse are way, way more effective than Recycle.
An ex of mine who is a pretty big environmentalist told me that recycling these days is usually worse for the environment than sending trash to the landfill. She told me that we export our recycling to China so the transportation and lack of environmental regulations over there actually makes it worse. I never investigated to find out how much truth was in that though.
Exactly this. Recycle aluminum...throw everything else in a landfill. We’re not running out of space for garbage in this millennia.
I used to not care about recycling and threw everything in the bin when I was a kid. As an adult who sails and has seen the state the sea is in and an actual landfill the idea of a metal can going in general refuse makes my skin itch.
If part of education was taking kids to see what actually happens to their rubbish it would go a long way in terms of recycling.
From a cost benefit standpoint recycling is mostly a monumental waste of time, effort, and money, and does as much or more damage to the environment then it prevents. Now instead of just one garbage truck once a week now I have a garbage truck, recycling truck and organics truck every week, that's 3 times the cost and 3 times the air pollution to collect now.
Covered landfills with methane capture is still the best option for our waste. Our focus should be on reducing consumption, and regulating the insane amount of packaging that exists today.
edit - Plastics should be largely banned like yesterday!
Upvote for use of the word heinous without sounding too pretentious.
https://vimeo.com/216389085
Penn and Teller really changed my perspective on recycling. All recycling does is add an extra step and additional wasted resources before an item winds up in a dump.
Recycled items are generally more expensive than newly produced ones, which means they wind up in the dump anyways when recyclers can't sell them.
If you really want to address the problem of human garbage, we need to address it at the source. Manufacturing and industry needs to take responsibility for the culture of consumption it has created, and needs to reduce and reuse products before putting the onus on the consumer by telling them to recycle.
Aluminium, yes. Paper, no. Other things? Debatable. https://youtu.be/7czKngCUASM
if you're using a trash carting company like wm, they will sort through your trash for any $$$ recyclables.
Recently moved back home to WA from Houston I’m so glad to be someplace that takes recycling seriously again
In some places, like Hawaii, trash is actually used to create energy.
That and a lot of places don't want to sort through to recycle everything.
More could be recycled. They just don't want to pay someone or have these crazy machines built that could do it.
There's a weird profit thing which I wonder how that works considering in many places tax money is being used to recycle.
In the same vein but slightly opposite, research the production method (if possible) of what you're buying. Some 'recyclable' items have a worse environmental impact than their counter parts (wood coffee stirrers vs plastic, plastic is recyclable, even though the wood seems more environmentally friendly they don't have second life options after production).
There is an interesting quandary happening here in Oregon. We recycle tons of waste. I heard on NPR that it gets shipped over to Japan for processing but now Japan doesn't want to take it because it isn't washed enough. Experts were saying most of our recycling is going to end up in the landfill if we don't overhaul things fast
I used to think my dad was crazy, but now I find myself trying to make room in my apartment for bins for glass, metal, plastic, paper, and compost. I think my whole family of 5 produces about one bag of trash a week now.
Due to idiots at my apartment complex putting straight up trash into the recycling bin rather than walk 30 more feet to the garbage bin they took away our recycling bin.
Now instead of being able to take a quick walk and recycle all my stuff in one place I have to drive to three different spots to recycle my stuff. One location only takes glass, one only takes card board, and the third takes everything else.
I could drive to the recycling center but its way out of the way and I have to pay per pound of material I send to them directly.
I pride myself on buying mostly recyclable material. Reduce, reuse, recycle. I buy less when I can, reuse what I can, and recycle the rest. My wife and I easily recycle twice as much as we toss into the garbage. We check pretty much every we buy for its ability to be recycled before we purchase it.
I've complained twice now to my complex to get the recycling bin back but they said they probably won't.
I agree in principal but very few places actually recycle anymore.
This isn’t enough anymore. Where I’m from, not sure about other places, we physically cannot recycle the amount of plastic we consume.
We used to send our recycling to China (as I’m sure other nations do) but they stopped receiving it. We can’t just recycle it, we need to reduce our consumption altogether.
I seem to recycle more than I throw away lately. My garbage bin for pickup has barely anything in it each week, while I have more to recycle than can even fit in the bin. I basically only throw away that which the recycling refuses to pickup. I know its not much, but I figure this is my one little way of contributing.
Recycling is better than landfills, but just barely. Reducing consumption is far better
I work for a major corporation. All of our recycle cans around the site just get thrown in the trash. Why?
"Because people feel better if they think we recycle."
I hate it so much, I usually bring home my own recycle.
My carbon footprint is heinous, but we have two cans in the kitchen in my house of 4 dudes. One for recycling and one for trash and we always fill up the recycle can during the week. WOO!
Moved to a place with recycling. Between that and the compost it's shocking how small our garbage has become. It would be even better if we had glass and plastic bag recycling.
Didn't Penn and Teller debunk recycling on their show "Bullshit"?
Seriously. 75% of my weekly home waste is recyclable.
Also, recycle properly. Dirty ass fast food wrappers/pizza boxes are not recycleable. Neither are glass/plastic containers covered in food residue.
When you put non-recycleables in the recycling bin, it's just like throwing it away but with extra steps.
Recycle or die at this point.
Yes! And recycling is sooo easy. I don't understand why it's not automatic for everyone.
Thats our governments fault for having landfills in the first place. "Oh garbage? Dig a hole and chuck it in" -our governments
how many turns are we into this game and we still haven't researched core waste dumps?
wtf google tells me we only got 8 miles down before we quit. what kinda bullshit is that
I'm simply investing in the future. When the world is an apocalyptic wasteland, there will be plenty of salvageable materials left in the landfills for roaming hordes of scavengers to harvest.
I just buy everything metal. Plates, cups, whatever it is. They will last you your entire life. Ask yourself before you buy anything, will it last forever?
There is no “away” other than to mean “no longer in your house”. Land fills are eternal.
What's really heinous is the amount of stuff that people try to recycle that is still sent to the landfill. Yeah that box has 2 crumbs in It? It's trash
Isn’t recycling more expensive tho
True but recycling requires a shit load of energy. The first step should always be to reduce then reuse. Most recycled goods can only be recycled a few times. That better than nothing but not good enough for long grain term sustainability. Reduce and redeuse when possible
Recycling is mostly a scam. It's only less well known than this: If every single passenger car in the world was removed, it wouldn't make a dent in CO2.
heinous
Is that how we're using that word now?
I don't like it it because people brag about doing it
Choosing to be better, everyday. It doesn't matter what you want to do or who you are or who you want to become, be a better human being everyday. Now, this varies from person to person. For some, it might be telling their parents they love them, or spending more time with family, or getting better at a skill or hobby, or taking up a brand new hobby. It might be walking an extra block or two to get a bit more exercise, or choosing to use the stairs rather than the elevator or escalator. Don't compare yourself to others. Compare yourself to the person you were yesterday, a week ago, a month ago, a year ago. Constant improvement.
This is one of those small ones that makes such a big impact. I know so many people that either mire themselves in self pity because they compare themselves to everyone that has more than them, or does more than them, or seem "happier" than them, when they could be improving themselves, just little by little
They don't realize that
So true. I used to do the same thing. I used to wonder what I could do to be better than them. Then I realized that I don't have to be better than them. I should strive to be better than myself.
Edit: grammar
Thanks for this. I've had this problem for years where I try to turn everything into competition and then get so frustrated so fast that I've learned to not even bother starting something because I don't want to show myself as an amateur in other people's eyes.
This week I asked a friend to come to the movies with me but he refused so I just thought screw it and went alone and it actually made my whole week better. It might not sound much, but I never do anything like that by myself so it made me realize that I can actually make myself happier. I just need to give myself a chance.
Good! Everyone is an amateur. Everyone has areas in which they can improve. The only way to become a pro is to begin as an amateur. And being an 'amateur,' at least in my opinion, is nothing to be ashamed of. In fact, it is something to be lauded. You took a risk, and you're trying something new. That is life.
Take as long as you need. Give yourself an infinite number of chances.
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You can make small changes easily (not using straws, use your own water bottle & coffee cup, buy loose fruit and veg, bring your own shopping bags out with you, switch from shower gel to bar soap...) Some plastics are unavoidable though unless you have the means to lead a completely plastic free life. There are lots of bulk buy places popping up where you can bring your own containers, but they're still few and far between and unfortunately I don't have a butcher very near to me. Only supermarkets that have meat sold in plastic trays.
My wife and I get beer when we go to our local theater every week. It's served in a large plastic cup. Since most companies only have trash bins and not recycle bins she makes us bring them home with us to recycle lol. I love her because she cares, I hate her because I feel like a dumbass carrying my trash out of a movie with me. But I guess that's society's fault. Put some recycle bins in your damn theaters!
I've started just bringing my own drinks to the cinema so I don't have to buy one of their plastic cups. I'll still get popcorn because I'm an addict haha! But it just comes in a paper bag. I'll bring my own reusable water bottle and and maybe a can of coke that I can recycle myself.
We thought about bringing our own drinks honestly as we bring our own snacks sometimes, but it's suuuuch a small local theater we feel bad not supporting them in at least SOME way lol.
Have you asked to bring your own glass? If it's the same size or smaller than what they use they might be OK with it. It gives them the same profit, and you don't feel weird bringing your cup home because it's a nice cup. If you want to be really cool, have some movie themed cups for bringing with you. I bring my own coffee cup when I get coffee both because it's more environmental, and I get a nice discount (They charge 1.50 instead of 2.25).
Definitely this! If it’s a super small theatre you might even be able to talk directly to the owner and talk about how you would love for them to add recycling bins. Most cities have organizations that can help businesses become more eco-friendly and I bet they do some sort of “pro bono” work for smaller businesses.
They might also be able to sell collector cups or a mug club type thing. The theater gets extra profit, consumers get to show off that they are a regular, and reuse is often better than recycling. A $30 mug that gets me 50¢ off beer doesn't really pay for itself but I'd get one to support the place. My local theater does popcorn buckets that give you a discount for 4 months.
Not saying this isn’t possible, I’m just going to share my own experience...
When I started at my current place or employment near three years ago, I was (and subsequently still am) APPALLED at the fact that this rather large office that has anywhere from 5 to 20 people in it everyday didn’t recycle. At that point I did have that conversation with my boss to which he told me to look into it. So I called up to speak with our waste management company (Waste Management is their name) and found out it would be an extra $200 a month to add recycling on top of our dumpster service, and in the end that was a cost that my boss would not approve.
What gets me (and I admit I don’t understand the process) is I always thought recycling was free as the waste company just sells it to someone else to break it down, or they do it themselves.... and then sell the product, either way their profiting and STILL charging an obscene amount for the “service”
Look into another waste contractor. Many local companies will do recycling for free, are cheaper than WM, and are happy to accommodate new customers.
WM is overpriced and gets picked because they’re the McDonald’s of garbage haha
I thought McDonald's was the McDonald's of garbage
If they were the McDonald’s of waste management, then they wouldn’t be so overpriced. With that being said, the reason they’re so overpriced is they’ve bought out all the competition and the companies that remain just split up zip codes. Garbage in chicago is a dirty industry, pun intended.
Oh hell, you’re in Chicago
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yep! Bringing your own glass is the way to go a lot of the time. I have a Macs store that my company provides security for, after I started bringing my thermos they started just giving me the coffee for free. It turns out that most of their costs are in the containers and the additives (I drink black) and by bringing my thermos the coffee was basically free.
it actually would give them a HIGHER profit. Soda is cheap as shit, the cup costs more than the soda.
seventy-five cents off a $2.25 drink is a monster discount
What! My coffee place charges .95 instead of 2.23. Even more thankful for my discount now!
Wow lol all the ones near me give like a $0.10 discount
Just to put in, I work at a small theatre, and we inventory cups, not the drinks. That means if someone brings their own cup, we are forced to damage the cup they would’ve used anyway and chuck it in the trash so that our counts aren’t off. I have been pressing management to add a BYO cup option into the sales system which they’ve done with coffee but not with soda. Most theatres operate under that same rule, so bringing your own cup doesn’t necessarily reduce the waste created.
Most theaters won't let you bring your own cups in because that is how they do inventory- everything is counted at the end of your shift. Cups, candy, popcorn bags.... everything.
I bring my own beers to the bar. As long as I take my trash I can recycle it. Saving the planet while I save money!
I bring my own hookers to the brothel. I am an amazing human.
Most places don’t allow you to bring your own food and drinks.
I've never been stopped. I do buy drinks at our local theater that shows indie films though, because I like supporting them and they offer recycling.
I did a paper on plastic v paper bags, and unless things have drastically changed aince then, producing and recycling paper is actually worse for the environment. Plus paper that is coated in wax (to prevent spillage or grease leakage) is sometimes not recyclable. Paper products account for roughly half of the wastes found in landfills because it's impossible for them to biodegrade there. So if you use paper products (like we all do) try to make sure that it's at least going to a recycling plant and not a landfill.
I don't mean to be "that guy" but I haven't seen anyone else mention it so far but have you guys considered veganism? You seem to care a lot of our environment and veganism is a pretty simple change that has a tremendous effect of the planet and even you.
Meh. I enjoy meat way too much, and we were evolved to be omnivores anyways. I have cut back on my meat consumption quite a bit out of concern for both my health and the environment, but I have no interest in giving it up. I feel like our planet/country (USA) needs moderation, not total abstinence. (That could apply to so many things)
Good to hear you've cut back. I agree with the US needing to be more moderate.
I don't really agree with the omnivore bit. Just because we're able to digest meat doesn't mean we should.
"Should" =/= evolutionarily predisposed. You can literally tell by our teeth and jaw structure that we evolved to eat pretty much whatever we can get our hands on.
Herbivores generally have wide, flat molars meant for grinding up plants, and jaws that move sideways to aid in this chewing motion. Carnivores (like dogs) have sharp teeth and jaws that move up and down, good for getting a good bitehold, tearing off and chewing tough meat. Omnivores have something in between, a mix of sharp incisors and flat molars, and jaws that can move in all directions.
Now that our culture has outpaced biological evolution and allowed us to manipulate the world around us to the point that we could theoretically all survive off of plants, doesn't change the fact that for millions of years, homo sapiens and other humans lived as omnivorous hunter-gatherers. So veganism is probably acceptable, but not optimal, from a purely biological perspective... but given our almost parasitic population growth across the earth, a more ecologically sustainable diet is probably something we as a species should strive for (although, good luck with that).
Some places allow you to bring your own cups so that's also an option if you don't mind it. It's a bit lame but it's better to reduce consumption, reuse as much as you can, and then recycle as a last resort. You guys are making such an awesome effort to recycle at home - it's always so good to hear when people care a bit more about their actions.
Haha that's awesome. Much respect to your wife
Now you know good and well that having recycle bins in the theaters would only result in recycle bin bags full of food and other non-recyclable materials.
Or arguably worse, bags full of recyclables going straight into the dumpster for trash
That's really sweet of her. My whole community I live in doesn't even offer recycling because they say it's too expensive... I moved from California and was completely in shock this is still happening.
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Good point! We'll try to get a hold of a manager next time we're there and see who we can talk to.
It’s not as cheap as you might think it would be to just add recycling to your current dumpster/trash service. As I said in a previous comment, I did have that talk with my boss who told me to look into it. After I told him our waste management company quoted us an additional $200 to add recycling to our current dumpster plan, and with that being said, our office isn’t small but it’s smaller than a regular theater, and has shit load less waste including recyclables.
Long story short, it’s not that easy, I’ve tried.
Our local theatre chain has loyalty cups that are good for the year. I would buy two or three because I'm forgetful until I started washing it out after the movie and leaving it in the trunk of the car.
Write the theater manager or the chain’s headquarters. Odds are someone up the line will thing it’s a cheap solution to some good optics. Hell. Get a bunch of people to do it!
just went to work at a new place. the owner is adamant about recycling. made me happy to hear.
I use a reusable, silicon pint "glass" for occasions like that. They go by the name "silicup" and I feel like everyone should give it a try. There are some towns that give discounts to people who bring in their own silicup and it should definitely be a trend.
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Because we're conditioned to I guess? Everyone else leaves trash on the floor and in seats. Some carry it to a trash can. Literally never seen anyone else carry it outside. It's a weird feeling lol
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We got our passes don't worry hahaha
In one cinema chain in the UK they actually tell you to leave your rubbish behind (at the seat) so they can sort and recycle it, but it feels to much like littering to me so I never do it :/
And then companies need to ACTUALLY recycle the recycling bins! I worked at a hotel where they had recycling bins and signs claiming they were a "green" hotel and yet they emptied the recycling bins into the dumpster.
Get a refill on the way out and then you have an excuse to be carrying it.
Edit: missed the part about beer. Probably no free refill for that, but you could follow my advice if you get soda.
Put them in the trunk. Empty beer cups may be considered open containers by your state. Even if they're not, a cop's interpretation of open container laws might lead to anything from a minor inconvenience to a dui arrest.
Like the police will care they are in your trunk in most places LOL
So you're saying there's no difference between being in the trunk and in the driver's cupholder?
Legally, no, not in most places.
Sounds stupid.
But you can get a DUI for sleeping in the back of your car in most places, too.
Not sure why everyone keeps saying this.. the cups are plain clear cups we rinse out before taking home.. indistinguishable from water cups... Why would they even assume alcohol is involved?
You are obviously aware of what you are doing and the implications that it has.
Some people don't think, and may admit to a cop to drinking and driving during a routine traffic stop without realizing it. It happens, and if you have empty beer cups that have not been rinsed out in your backseat, that would be bad.
I know this sounds like a good idea...but...are you really bringing empty containers into a vehicle just to recycle them at home? I love this planet too...but not enough to get a bogus DUI for it.
They are clear plastic cups that easily could have been for water, not labeled bottles or anything
My apartment complex doesn’t recycle. It makes me so sad that all of our recyclables have to go to the garbage, because your wife sounds like me.
I lovingly refer to my wife as a Recycle Nazi. She does this shit to me all the time. She's constantly bringing home the dumbest, tiniest little bits of recycling materials.
God I love her.
Have you considered carrying a pint and a half-sized mason jar with you? Most places will fill that instead of using their own plastic glass. I have had great success with that, and with using mason jars to store foods, buy in bulk, etc. They come in many different sizes and are very sturdy.
Your cinema serves beer but in a plastic Cup? Maybe try talking to management about getting real glasses.
I go to the VIP theatre regularly and they always serve beer in proper pint glasses.
Do you two walk home?
Plastic can only be downcycled and not actually recycled. Also many cities don't actually recycle. Maybe it would make more sense to bring your own glasses?
I don't know if that would even be allowed.. are you allowed to take your own glasses to restaurants and bars? Seems like it would be an outdated healthcode thing. I should ask though. Also they charge based on ounces, so would they trust us when we say our glass size is X ounces? Seems like a hassle for a bar.
It depends where you are. In many plain Germany you can bring whatever you want, but they can't take it over the counter. So as long as you are holding your own container, they can pour it full for you. In other places you get a small discount for bringing your own coffee mug. But also asking if they would fill your glass to reduce waste can start a conversation that will lead to change. In our town a small bunch of young activists not only made it acceptable to bring your own coffee cup to cafés and bakeries (which previously wouldn't accept them), but also implemented a city wide system of "deposit cups" which are reusable plastic cups that you can take away and bring back to any other cafe/bakery when you're done.
switch from shower gel to bar soap
Or make a point of buying things in bigger bottles. A shampoo bottle that contains twice as much does not require twice as much plastic.
It's still more plastic you could easily avoid using though.
And bar soap isn't as crap as it used to be. I made the switch a few months ago and it's been fine. And I LOVED my fruity smelling shower gels!
Can you recommend a bar soap that doesn't leave that "squeaky clean" feeling? Like if you use a bar of Dove and then dry off and run your finger over your skin, it almost "catches" or something, I don't know how to describe it. I recently got some artisan bar soaps and still have to run some shower gel over my body afterwards because I just need the moisture from the gel or something.
That's what keeps me from using bar soap too. Feels like your whole body gets shrink-wrapped or something.
I have found my people
Is this going to be the new standing vs sitting while wiping thing? I like the squeaky clean but I thought that was because I have hard water now.
Hard water
Wat
It's water that has lots of minerals in it. You can get a water softener to fix it.
Well, just a tip for you and your people then: DO NOT use a Neutrogena transparent facial bar on your whole body. I felt like I could probably use it to plan a heist where I shimmy my body up the side of a skyscraper like a fucking gecko.
What you should do is find a good body lotion(CeraVe and Cetaphil are good options) and apply it while you're still wet from the shower. That will get rid of the rubbery feeling and it's good for your skin!
Applying it while still wet makes it spread and absorb better. Meaning you'll use less and won't get that oily lotion feeling, especially as you can wipe off any excess as you dry!
But.... I'm going to be using plastic for the body lotion. That's the whole reason for using bar soap in the first place.
Lotion bar!
They exist, and are awesome, but definitely a bit greasier than liquid lotion.
I have a ton of body hair. Trying to rub lotion into my skin is generally like rubbing peanut butter in.
That's a funny visual
One of us, one of us
I thought I was mad. This is the reason I use soap on my face when my skin is super greasy. Feels like it strips it all away (I’m very aware this is horrible for my skin and I literally do it maybe once every two months if that)
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But buying a bottle of lotion defeats the purpose of switching to bar soap and using less plastic.
For real, use a glass jar of coconut oil or almond oil, then reuse it! Also drinking enough water will drastically reduce the amount you need to moisturize your skin. This means 2-3 liters per day, more if you're overweight or more active.
It’s because you’re used to the sulfates in body wash, maybe try a moisturizer after
I like that feeling. The body wash stuff feels like I'm not properly rinsed.
I try not to recommend Whole Foods too often but they have an AMAZING line of bar soaps that are super nourishing for your skin.
You can also buy stuff at your local farmers market that works great, or make your own!
When you wait 5 minutes your skin feels silky smooth though
I started making my own for that reason
You can just put on a little bit of cheap lotion before you shower, that way your skin doesn't dry out as much.
look for french milled or triple milled soap
South of France makes a whole line based around shea butter. Try it once, you will never go back to shower gel.
Thanks!
Anything from Lush! They're very good about plastic-free, and have lots of 'solid showed gels' that leave you feeling nice and soft
Your skin still squeaks with Dove? Dove is hella full of moisturizer. I don't get that with those bars...
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I get hella dry skin if I use normal soap, so I use Dove to avoid feeling like I've been desiccated when I get out of the shower.
I... I like the squeaky clean...
Thank you! I thought I was taking crazy pills...I do not feel clean without being squeaky.
Bar soap lathers on a loofah very well. You can add some oil on it if you wish I like coconut or almond oil. It leaves me clean and moisturized!
Got some brand recommendations for u: - Good Soap by alaffia (my fave!) - Mrs. Meyer's bar soaps - Kiss My Face Olive Bars - Dr. bronner's bar soaps
+1 for liking that squeaky clean feeling it's whta makes me feel actually clean instead of having just run shower gel over me! if you're in the UK try Lush they have some great ones which sorta do that but also moisturise and leave skin feeling smooth - I have a really nice rose scented bar rn
Lush has stores here in the US too. I guess I should try their soaps, I bought some for Xmas presents and people liked them.
ah great! I love their commitment to reusable containers and plastic-free packaging. going into their shops can be a bit of a sensory overload though!
They have plastic free packaging? I swore the containers were made of plastic.
oops, was referring to bar soaps and bar shampoos and bath bombs. their moisturisers and lip balms still come in those little pots - but I think the plastic is recycled, and they have a great incentive in terms of discounts / free products for people who return and reuse the pots !
I was hoping you were gonna tell me the containers were made of something else that looked and felt kind of like plastic but wasn't.
I might have to get a piece of one of their big soap bars. I'm not a big fan of soap bars, I've even tried Castille soap. Maybe they'll have something better.
Dove IS the bar soap with moisturizers. Try using Irish spring and your skin will really suck lol.
Or Zest.
You can get a little sleeve for your soap that makes it into a loofah. Ive always bought mine at Target or Sprouts but I'm sure they're on Amazon too. It helped me convert totally to bar soap without that gross feeling.
Edit: plus-exfoliating!
Dove isn't even soap in the first place, that's why it's terrible.
Try castile soap.
I love Castile soap. I use Kirk's original for a bar soap. I've never really noticed the squeaky feeling, but it definitely gives a "cleaner" feel than my African black soap. Irish Spring is the worst imo. My dad uses it and I don't even like to touch it because of that squeaky feeling.
Dove and others make soap and then remove a natural component of soap, the glycerine. This is what keeps your skin not feeling a size too small. I make homemade soap from scratch using fats, oils, caustic soda and water. These kinds of bars you can regulate to your skin by leaving the glycerine and use superfat. Superfat is fat left over after the saponification (the chemical process which turns fat, water and caustic soda into soap. Which means 5-10% soap can be leftover fat which moisturize your skin or less for your hair or oily skin. Anyway don't judge bar soap from what dove makes.
Listen to this redditor^^. Soapmaker here too. The best way I can explain it to people is that commercial soaps are basically just glycerin farms for the company. They just need the glycerin so they can make the much more profitable lotion. Making soap and producing that skin loving glycerin is time intensive so they just toss surfactants in there and sell them cheaply, but it was never about the quality of the soap for them. Bar soap is kind of a waste product that they can sell just to squeeze that extra dollar.
Don't forget the big pH scam.
We were told high pH was bad by the people who wanted to sell low pH shower gels. They said that skin is pH 5,5 and soap is too alkaline for your skin. This is is also bullshit, high pH soap is fine for your skin as long as it's made properly.
Olive oil soaps! Much less drying and actually helps keep my skin moisturized. Trader Joes also has a goats milk olive oil soap for like 3 dollars that does something similar.
well, Dove isn't exactly soap, more of a bar of lotion. I've found it's better to spend more on nicer bar soaps -- I used to only use Irish Spring but it dried out my skin so badly. You could try castile soaps (there's a bar version of Dr. Brommer's), unless you have really hard water.
I can't recommend a bar soap that does that (I've not looked around a ton), but get some moisturizer, or make your own moisturizer. Just add that to your hygiene routine, and that can deal with that way too clean feeling.
but moisturizer is in plastic bottles :( however, i also hate the squeaky clean feeling but after you dry yourself off you cant really notice. i love the smell of soap so i use it anyway and just get over it.
Unless you mix your own using bulk goods!
Normally I just deal with it, because my body produces oils that in an hour or two (especially if I'm getting someplace by walking or bicycling) it'll deal with the problem on its own. I only really use moisturizer in winters because Midwestern winters hate your skin's moisture content, and makes all of your wool clothing stick to you and it's terrible.
just realised coconut oil is in glass jars lol
I use Mistral Men's Sandalwood Bamboo. Smells great, the bar lasts forever, and actually leaves my skin moisturized instead of dry af.
Stirling soap bath soap, their shaving soap is amazing!
Try the soaps from Indigo Wild. I'm a guy with sensitive skin (and not ashamed of it!) and their soaps are fantastic for me.
I like every bar of soap I buy from Lush, to be honest. Right now I’m using Bohemian, really refreshing but not overpowering lemon scent and doesn’t leave a film. If you buy the ones that don’t focus on moisturizing I don’t usually have the film problem.
Try naturally made soap with Shea butter or something of that nature. I really enjoy using Indian sandalwood soap, and mint. You could probably find this in whole foods, Amazon, or I think lush
Olive soap. I’ve had terrible dry skin for a long time but olive soap in bars has been fantastic. Doesn’t make my skin squeak when it’s wet, doesn’t dry it out (I don’t even need to use a moisturiser) and doesn’t smell like olives!
Use a natural soap, like one made from goat's milk. My local grocery carries Zum Bar.
I am allergic to sulfates, and use almost exclusively bar soap. With handmade sulfate free soaps from etsy, I have never felt that feeling. They also smell better.
I use "Grandpas Pine Tar Soap" for my body and my hair. Its all I have used for over a year now. I haven't noticed any squeak. It is not a fruity scent though. It is basically made with like pine tar extracted by fire... So you'll smell like a campfire for a few minutes after you shower but it goes away pretty fast.
Dr. Bronners bar soap doesn't leave that feeling, I'd also recommend the Honest company
Lever 2000 is the only one I can use.
I like Zest bar soap
I've actually found that Dove Beauty Bars don't do this at all.
I use Dove's bar with shea butter. My skin dries out super badly and the Dove has been a godsend.
Yeah, you buy the bar soap and then a bottle of moisturizing lotion to compensate for the dry skin.
Have you tried Cetaphil bars? I switched from shower gel to those and was pleasantly surprised by the total lack of squeaky/sticky feel. Dove is supposed to be moisturizing, but maybe it's leaving a residue on your skin that you don't like?
Check in the natural or organic section - I use a witch hazel soap that doesn’t do this to me. I think that squeaky clean feeling is from some of the additives in major soaps that make it foam up more.
You could just lotion afterwards. I think "squeaky clean" is just your skin being a little dry.
Nah, it's more like a residue from the soap
Dove moisturizing soap bars. The ones with lotion in them have never given me with the squeaky clean feel.
Maybe you guys just need to use less soap. If I completely lathered up with tons of soap, I might feel as you do, but I just don't overdo it. Only gross areas like pits get a direct hit of the soap bar.
I feel so much better that this is not just me. I tried to explain why I don’t like bar soap to my husband and he looked at me like I was crazy.
Use "Irish Spring" then literally any other soap will be 20x better in comparison. That stuff will make it so the water doesn't even stick to your skin and drying off is next to impossible.
Edit: put in a link
I use Dove Men plus care and I love that soap. The red box is my fav
I love Lever soap.... Dove leaves me feeling greasy, like I can't get it all washed off!
zum https://www.indigowild.com
I think that is more about your water and not so much the soap.
Look into castille soaps like Dr. Bronner. They're really easy on the skin.
I’ve been using vanicream bar soap and it leaves everything pretty nicely moisturized.
You need to look for a cleansing bar that is technically "soap free". This usually describes the foaming agent in soaps which removes the hypolipidic film from our skin which makes it "squeaky". I know you can find a few at the drugstore for sure- La Roche Posay makes a Lipikar bar, Avene has a Cold Cream bar, Cetaphil and Cerave both do bars as well. They are usually unfragranced, or at the most ever so slightly. Another bonus is since they are non-stripping you can usually use them on the face as well.
Olive oil soap generally doesnt do this.
I think your skin has become accustomed to gel, but gel isn't good for your skin because most of the time it has sulfates in it to help it foam up. Sulfates are really drying on your skin, so unless you used bar soap for months so that your skin had a chance to adjust to bar soap, your skin was probably still dry from the sulfates in the gel.
I have used Dove bar soap for years and put lotion on as soon as I get out of the shower (after you've dried off), and my skin is very soft and young looking (I'm in my 40s and I look much younger than others my age).
Lush has started making “Naked Shower Gels” essentially it is a shower gel in bar soap form. It doesn’t leave the soap residue or feeling at all.
I like Schmidt's, I know you can find their deodorants in stores like Wal-Mart, not sure about the soaps but you can order them online. PM me if you'd like me to find you a free shipping code, they email them all the time. The packaging is also really minimal, just a bar of soap inside a little cardboard box, no plastic.
I've also had good results with those 'man soap' brands like Dr. Squatch.
Not the op your asked but I switched to yardley of london oatmeal & almond bar soap. I have terrible eczema and am sensitive to dryness. This soap is the only one that's worked well for me. I've found it at Walmart.
BATHVS. It's a handmade soap that uses food grade olive oil. (Made by a Redditor, too.)
I'll never switch back to shower gel. Ever.
If you use Dove Moisturizing bar soap you won't get that.
You can get a water softener installed so that you can have that feeling of having something all over your skin that you cannot ever wash off.
https://curesoaps.ca/collections/frontpage/products/organic-pumpkin
Actually, after I got a water softener system in my house I noticed bar soap works way better than it used to. The sales rep explained it was all the extra stuff in the water clogging my skin and drying it out because the water in my area is very hard in general. Also don’t have to use nearly as much shampoo or conditioner + plus acne and all since I got the system. So it may not be the soap that’s drying out your skin, it may just be your water.
Most soaps use glycerine and lye, which gives you that "squeaky clean" feeling because it's actually a cleansing agent that actually scrubs the dirt and contamination off your body. Soap that doesn't have recognized cleansing agents aren't legally soap, so they're called beauty bars or something else.
If you'd prefer, try Ivory. It should be a lot easier on your skin.
Find your local LUSH.
I actually find that body shop soaps aren't bad for this or for my sensitive skin and they smell nice. It took about 3 times to get used to it, and then I haven't had a problem since. They also come in paper packaging, so much better than plastic.
First people use too much soap products in general to clean their bodies. You don’t need to put soap or body wash on every inch of your body every day. Do the neck, underarms, the groin area and feet. When using soap take a wash cloth and again just wash those areas. If you really want to use body wash make your own: some liquid Castile soap (you don’t need much it is concentrated) mix it with some coconut milk and water. Also people equate lots of bubbles with clean, the bubbles do not clean you. I have very sensitive and use to have very very dry skin. I stopped over using foaming products and now have dry normal skin that I still moisturize but it doesn’t crack and peel.
Shower protip: unless your extremity skin is dirty you do not need to use soap or shower gels to clean it! In fact it is better for your skin to simply rinse, as it doesn’t wash as many oils away. Areas that are typically ok to wash with soap once per day: Face, armpits, under breasts if sweaty, pubic region, and if necessary your feet.
If you feel the need to wash your skin with something, a wet washcloth or sponge without soap can be just as refreshing and still retain some natural oils. Kind of a little mind trick!
Please don’t use soap in your vagina, the outer labia and mons is just fine to wash with soap but just rinse inner labia and vagina with water- otherwise you run the risk of upsetting the pH balance, get a UTI or yeast infection, experience dry mucosal membranes, etc.
Whole foods has really great organic bar soaps.
That's soap residue. The only way to eliminate it is with having a soft water system installed. Otherwise, there isn't a bar soap out there that won't leave that nasty, covered in pine tar feeling.
That's because most all dove soap isn't soap but a "beauty bar". Find some soap that labels itself as such and you should notice a difference. I use Irish Spring.
For me, bar soap still isnt as good as shower gels in terms of how my skin feels afterwards, but the price difference is what made me swap.
I found them here on Reddit, but you should look up savonbody, it's a company that makes fucking awesome soap. It looks, smells, and works amazingly. I tried it because I saw it here and I genuinely loved it, highly recommended.
My friend’s company makes an amazing pumpkin soap (and they have other amazing scents) that make me feel amazing! https://curesoaps.ca/collections/frontpage/products/organic-pumpkin
Also, shower gels come with a lot of bad things that most bar of soap don't have. Perfumes, sillicon and shit like that for texture, etc. This is bad for both the skin and the environment.
A lot of shower gels also had micro-beads which are now banned.
I just use bar soap and make my own body scrub (olive oil, sugar and honey).
The only reason I switched to gels was because they seem to leave much less deposits on the shower walls/tub than bar soaps.
Less cleaning -> less cleaning products. win/win
My wife switched to bar shampoo and conditioner recently. It's the exact same stuff she was getting, only in bar form so less plastics. It ends up being slightly cheaper/use too. I didn't know that they existed until she mentioned it.
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Lush
It's not just about that though. I don't want to share a bar of soap with 4 other people. They're less likely to leave crap inside the bottle than they are on the bar.
I love bar soap. I never got into the shower gel fad because loofahs are fucking disgusting.
I've been using shower gel for years and have never used a loofah.
Have I been doing it wrong?!?!
I use shower gel at the moment (used to use a a bar of soap but then I switched to a tea tree shower gel to stop acne) and I'm not even sure what a loofah is, so you're not alone.
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On your skin
you can use washcloths with shower gel??
I really like the Yardley London brand of bar soaps. They are less than $2 a bar and I don't have issues with it drying out my skin. It gets super sudsy on my loofah too (which doesn't mean it cleans any better, but I like it!)
Yes! I love their lavender.
How you suppose to use a loofah with a bar of soap? :(
You rub the soap on the loofah. If my two year old can figure it out, I think you'll be okay.
That sounds time consuming and wasteful, sitting in the shower with the water running as you are rubbing the soap bar onto it over and over..
It really shouldn't take that long. Two or three rubs and you're good.
Yeah i guess i haven't used a bar of soap in a long time haha
Wet the loofah, wet the soap, rub the soap on the loofah.
Another (really great) solution
https://www.commongoodandco.com/
My parents always used solid bars of soap, but it seems to be far worse than shower gel for drying your skin out. For some people that's not a price worth paying...
Bar soap is sold in waxed paper though. And that can't be recycled and reused like plastic can. Though to be fair, the paper will degrade significantly faster than the plastic would.
can I use shampoo instead?
I buy my bar soap from a local maker. She even let's me buy it with zero packaging at request.
I've just switched too, stoped using my face wash also and my skin has never felt better! Also made the switch from shampoo bottle to bar it only took about a month of my hair getting used to and hair feels and looks amazing (if I do say so myself!)
If you recycle, plastics are of very little harm.
You. Can also find places that sell shampoo and such in bulk and refill your bottles! Admittedly easier to do in larger cities or if your city has a coop.
The other issue with shower gels that you didn't explore though are the ones with the exfoliating "beads." They're literally tiny microplastics that accumulate in the environment and in animals as they wash into larger water systems. Bar soaps may have them too, but that's why you can make sure to not buy those types.
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the earth thanks you for it! i am trying to reduce my plastic consumption as well, and some switches are very easy! Others, not so much... like asking for no straw ANYWHERE. It's a 50/50 gamble they'll remember but I can't blame them because it's so routine.
And some brands of bar soap are wrapped in plastic and then the bulk is wrapped in plastic
Piggybacking on this, you can also make your own shower scrub and keep it in a glass container. I make some with brown sugar, Epsom salt, avocado oil, and a few drops of essential oil for smell .
Then recycle those bottles, and problem solved without walking around with that gross feeling residue bar soap always leaves.
Dr. Bonners allows you to refill your bottle after it's been used up. They've got all sorts of different scents (and unscented). It's got some crazy ass shit written in the label but I like where their head is in regards to plastic consumption.
Sounds like a good idea. The best solution available here is to buy one bottle and then buy big refill bags to refill it with. A bag holds several times more soap than a bottle, so it's a massive improvement over buying new bottles every time, but still a bit wasteful.
the trick was to be too lazy to switch to shower gel in the first place when it came out.
I really like foam soap, do you know of any refills I can buy for the small container that foams it?
Just buy bar soap.
Dear god the cost savings. I bought a costco sized thing of the EXACT same fragrance and soap brand but from gel to bar. It's been ~1-2 years. I smell great, I'm clean, I saved ~200 a year.
For soap for hand washing dishes, I went the opposite direction and went to smaller bottles. I have a dishwasher and a large bottle of hand dishwashing soap lasts years. The bottle gets dirty and for the next year, I'm staring at a dirty bottle of soap.
The carbon footprint is still bigger for liquid products because you're transporting water. They also need conservants which end up in the waste water, bar soap doesn't.
Yeah, but I hate bar soap and if I don't have to put up with it I'll be far more motivated to be more environmentally friendly in other areas. I do still use it while traveling, but mostly because bringing bar soap means you don't have to care about airport security regulations (as solid explosives are clearly unheard of).
Or buy a wall mounted dispenser and buy gallons of soap / shampoo.
Or buy that anyway and use it to refill a bottle.
For the love of god please stop using plastic straws! Use paper straws or metal/glass ones. I work in a state Environmental office and our water quality people will tell you that plastic drinking straws are fucking everywhere in our waterways.
Also, there are a couple of coffee places in our city now that actually give you a discount for bringing your own coffee cup. The place across the street from my building just started. $0.50 off any drink if you bring your own cup. So now I have one of those tervis coffee cup things. I keep it at my desk and walk across the street with it to get my latte. Wash it out in the break room when I'm done. For some reason I haven't been able to get myself to remember reusable shopping bags on a regular basis. Though we do hold on to all those plastic ones and use them as can liners for like our bathroom trash cans and stuff. The rest of them we take to Target and put them in their bag recycling bin every now and then.
I get strange looks from the cashiers at the produce market when I walk up with a hand basket full of loose fruit and veggies. They always ask if I want a bags for them and I decline. Especially since they put those produce bags straight into fucking grocery bags. Makes no sense. They still think I'm weird though.
Or buy metalic straws.
Glass! Metallic starts to affect the taste of drinks. If it doesn’t bother you, more power, but it bothers me lol.
Let me just stick this glass straw in my pocket. *Sits* Oh dear. The straw shattered and seems to have nicked my femoral artery.
You wouldn't just jam your drinking straw in your linty pocket. Hardcover carrying case, like a fancy pen.
I mean...if you’re going to use a reusable drinking straw, are you just gonna shove it in your pocket, even if it’s metal? Plus, people still use straws in the home.
Just naming options man.
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Fast food is gigantic in the US, combined with a commuter culture that's a lot of straws getting used.
I'm reducing the number of straws I use. It's only a small step.
/r/zerowaste
I have a French penpal that we've been practicing French/Englih with, and she says that they have these stores called "en vrac", which basically means you bring your own containers for everything. Nothing is provided with plastic containers. But it's still very small right now.
Please, please stop using plastic straws. Metal ones are way better for cocktails anyway.
You could also cut down on your meat consumption. The production of animals for food is particularly bad for the environment. It ranks as one of the top producers of greenhouse gases.
I use bar soap anyway, but can you explain the environmental effects of shower gel vs bar soap to me?
You can buy bar soaps either unpackaged or in paper packaging that can be recycled/composted instead of a plastic shower gel bottle.
Packaging mainly for me. Bar soap usually comes in a paper wrapper that can be recycled. Shower gel comes in a plastic bottle that most people don’t
I don't use straws. But restaurants give them to me anyway.
Just ask for no straw with your drink. "Water with ice no straw please :)"
use your own water bottle
FFS people, this. THIS! I'm a runner who lives in Upstate NY, and I personally use Nalgene bottles cause it's a local company (Retired Kodak guy started it) But regardless, ANY reusable water bottle people. JUST DO IT. Stop paying outrageous amounts for water. Most of what you're drinking isn't any cleaner than tap. In fact, it might be worse.
Some bottled water is literally just municipal water (tap water) that companies sell for an insane markup... it is insane to me that so many people still buy single-use plastic water bottles!
I always ask for no straw when I'm in a restaurant. Not because I'm saving the planet, but because I'd rather drink from the edge, like an adult, most of the time.
You get discounts on coffee if you bring your own cup in the UK and a tax on coffee cups is coming later this year!
Holy shit, I want to scream at people to use their own water bottle. I have a roommate who won't drink tap water. Our tap water is OK. Nothing great, but it's clean and tastes ok. She for a whole year would drink nothing but bottled water. And not even the really big jugs, actual 16 oz. water bottles. She had to have gone through 500 of them. Until I bought a brita pitcher because where I stayed this summer had tap water that tasted like metal. She now drinks from that. It was literally $25. The amount she spent on water was probably 8 times that. I just...????
Man I moved to Austin 2 years ago and found out on my very first grocery store trip that they do not have plastic bags here. It was really annoying at first because I kept forgetting to bring my own bags, but after a while it is second nature to me. I have bought my own durable shopping bags and now when I get to the store, I go to my trunk and pull them out and bring them inside the store. When I'm done unloading my groceries at home I hang the empty bags on the door so I remember to bring it back to the car on my way out. It's a great habit that I will continue even if I don't live in a city that has banned plastic bags.
People who think the plastic packaging is the relevant environmental or ethical problem with purchasing meat -__-
have you thought about buying your meat one year at a time?
i have cousin with a Centennial Farm that i buy a half a cow from and have a nice freezer to keep it in.
3.50$ per lb for T Bones, Ribeyes, Filets, PLUS, never paying more than 3.50$ per lb for roasts or ground is a pretty amazing realization. the cost of the freezer (ours was 98$ on a fire sale at ABC) and the gas to drive to get the food is paid for after 10 meals.
buy loose fruit and veg
And put it in the provided plastic bag... fuck.
You can bring your own bag. It can be cloth!
Small plug for reusable glass straws along with other similar products.
I wish paper wrapped meat/ butcher shops were more of a thing still. Grocery chains ran all those type of business' out of most places.
While I'm far from perfect in this regard, just being conscious of it's use has helped me realize it makes a difference. And the kicker is that it's not just environmentally responsible, but financially as well.
Everyone says the same thing, but I've saved a lot of money and cut back my plastic waste a whole lot just by using my own water bottle over the years. A good metal insulated reusable water bottle is worth every penny.
I was terrified of reusable straws, but I finally made the change. I also just started using my own reusable bags! It feels really good to know that I'm not using a bunch of plastic ones. ETA: also, don't use the veggie bags.
The straw thing... I rarely use straws at restaurants. I prefer drinking from the glass. What's the chance the waitress/ waiter reuses the straw they put on my table?
None. Just ask for no straw with your drink order.
No need for a butcher, go to an Indian market near you (there are a ton where I live) and they usually have a butcher at the back w/ tons of meats like lamb, beef, chicken, goat, and more. All of its pretty fresh too.
I would like todo all of this but I sadly can't afford it...
Best example: oil in pastic bottles is 85¢. The one in glass is 2,89€... It is both fucking sunflower oil god dammit!
Understandable :) Even small switches help! But I feel you, sometimes buying in bulk is actually more expensive than smaller packages too, which doesn't make too much sense to me.
Wouldn’t a butcher be one one of the more plastic intensive shops? What with concerns about contamination.
Butcher. are one of the few exemptions to the 5p plastic bag tax here.
Don't butchers generally wrap their cuts in paper?
Depends on the butchers, the ones I frequent use small plastic bags.
You’re probably right that that’s how they cut down on plastic use.
I've heard "buy loose fruit and veg" often. Any thoughts on the cleanliness of this? Just throw them in the cart/basket and then onto the conveyor belt which is sometimes wet for whatever reason? Is a simple rinse in the sink before use enough to deal with this?
EDIT: Also, do you put your reusable shopping bags in the washing machine if they get nasty?
If you're a fan of straws, you can buy metal or glass straws and reuse them forever.
Here in the Midwest virtually ever grocery store has a meat department that will cut and wrap meat for you. Even Wal-Mart usually has one. Is this not common in supermarkets in other places?
I've been trying to reduce plastic, and in the past succeeded . But water is often a problem: the tap water from my current place makes me sick, and there's no place nearby to refill bottles with more healthy water.
I try and do some of this, I stopped buying bottle water and carry my own all the time, and the rare occasion I do buy one i reuseit as much as possible! I don't get straws for drinks, I'm working on not using plastic bags when doing groceries but always forget my reusable bags!
I work i logistics for retail non-food. Generally manufacturers will package their packages in plastic and then in a box for transport. I repeat: they are packaging packages. relevant meme
At least saving things like straws (which aren't necessarily 1-use items) for reuse or using in children's art projects and so on. It's not necessarily about not using plastic at all, but not buying plastic products and avoiding throwing them in the bin by whatever means possible. If you can find any uses for old bottles and tubs, then do. A lot of plastic fruit tubs are really good as indoor planters.
If you have the room, ordering 1/4 or 1/2 cow from a farmer is a great way around this. They wrap it in butchers paper and flash freeze it. No plastic waste and for my family a 1/4 lasts the three of us about 1 year. Less trips to the store also!
If I have to buy lunch or a drink at work I take the plastic container home with me to recycle. It's so simple to do, but for years I just binned them without thinking.
Or use the paper bags that many grocery stores have as an alternative to plastic
Paper bags are pretty much as resource-intensive to make as plastic. Of course, they degrade much quicker. The best option is reusable bags, which I have managed to acquire for super cheap at thrift stores or at those events where they hand out bags for promotional purposes. Little to no cost, just have to remember to bring them with you ;)
Something worth noting on the plastic bag front, since that's often one of the harder habits to break: Local resource centers (or whatever you want to call community assistance stores) accept them as donations, because they need shopping bags, too. So if your bag-of-bags gets full and you don't know what to do with it, find your local resource center and stop in, see if they'll take em. Mine is always happy to have them.
Part of the three Rs. Reduce, Re-use, Recycle.
Late to the party but another thing to do is re-use ziploc bags! I see people throw them out or recycle them after one use but they are actually pretty durable. Unless you use them to carry something truly gross (raw chicken, really moldy food, etc) you can use them over a dozen times if you are gentle with them!
I wish butchers would come back...our town recently got a new fishmonger with a little cafe attached where you can get awesome poboys and various soups...so good!
What’s wrong with shower gel? Just the bottle?
Industrial waste from a single small business outstrips your discarded plastic a hundred times over. This individualist perspective is actively harmful and is used to cover up a much larger problem.
I've started carrying a glass bottle around with me. Better for the environment, better for my health.
I totally hadn’t even considered the plastic in the shower gel to bar soap switch. I just remember watching a documentary talking about how gels are mostly liquids and the carbon footprint is higher.
Thank you for teaching me something today!
I can't buy loose fruit when they only sell fruit in plastic bags or plastic netting... WHY!! These fruits have their own thick skins already, like bananas and oranges, they don't need plastic as well.
The only one that seems out of plaCe is the shower gel vs bar soap one. Is it because shower gel comes in plastic bottles? But I feel like in the time it takes me to finish a giant shower gel bottle I would use 2 or 3 bars with their own packaging.
I switched to bar soap for all the hand soap in my house recently, and I try to make a point of buying soap that either doesn't have any packaging (usually made locally), or is wrapped in paper instead of plastic. It's actually more cost effective that buying even the cheapest liquid hand soap.
Some of the ways to avoid plastic are so much more expensive than the alternative, it's a bummer. An example being meat, there are a few places near me that have sustainably farmed meat, and when you buy it, they wrap it in paper, rather than plastic; but it costs almost twice as much as the other options. I try to buy from there as much as possible, and am trying to eat less met, but it's still a pretty huge price difference.
i like to re use plastic bags though, we get them from shops, you can re use them very easily
I never feel like I can get properly clean with bar soap. I think it’s because usually I use a shower puff so I get a good lather going and really scrub down. Anyone know of a good alternative I can get in the uk?
Cans and glass bottles contain plastic lining and seals, even the paper used at the butcher has non-recyclable plastic in/on it, and that stuff will unavoidably become microplastic when the paper breaks up. Maybe if you're in a big coastal city, or parts of Europe, you can avoid plastic; but if it's possible anywhere else with a fairly normal diet, I don't know how to do it.
I hate seeing people buy a single cucumber and put it in a plastic bag. Like really, you're gonna peel that anyway! And wash it! Whyyyy
You can make produce bags out of old t-shirts if you can sew two straight lines. Or you can buy reusables.
bring your own shopping bags out with you,
I just wanted to point out that this has ended up producing more plastic waste and green house gas emissions not less. I read somewhere that you'd have to reuse one of the reusable bags something like 5000 times to make up for using the disposable bags.
If you're going to resuse bags just reuse the shitty plastic disposable ones and bring them with you instead of spending money and energy on reusable bags.
http://www.businessinsider.com/tote-bags-sustainability-environmental-impact-2016-9
how does it help if the plastic bottles are already made and being produced still? honest question
Intuitively less plastic on food is better, but that's not necessarily the case. For instance, people assume individually wrapped cheese slices is a huge environmental waste problem and it's better to buy a block of cheese. However, if you buy a block of cheese, the plastic wrapping just accounts for a few percent of the actual environmental cost. The big impact is in producing the cheese. So intuitively it might seem more environmentally friendly to buy a block of cheese instead of pre sliced, but it really isn't. Because most people will throw away the last bit of cheese, it's actually better for the environment to buy the pre sliced cheese with extra plastic because all of the cheese usually gets eaten.
Similarly, you mention loose fruit and vegetables as a good thing. This is also terrible for the environment, even though intuitively it seems like it would be better. There are several reasons. First, when the stores gets delivered a crate of oranges, the bottom layer or two are considered cushioning basically, and are just thrown out. Huge environmental waste already, producing all that fruit just for the landfill. Second, fruits and vegetables that aren't wrapped in plastic don't last as long. That means that stores are forced to throw out huge quantities of loose fruit and vegetables that customers don't pick. Produce wrapped in plastic last for way longer, and perhaps more importantly looks fresh longer, so they actually gets purchased instead of ending up in a dumpster behind the grocery store. And most people that buy loose vegetables and fruit put them in a plastic bag. But this bag is the same size, no matter how little fruit is in it, so you end up using more plastic than if the factory had wrapped it.
The way I see it, we actually need to use more wrapping. Sure, all that plastic ending up in landfills is a problem. But the cost of producing food is much bigger. The wrapping doesn't doesn't have to always be plastic, but food that gets grown just for the landfill is a bigger problem than plastic. Stuff like plastic straws are a total waste and perhaps should even be made illegal, but for wrapping food I'm convinced that more plastic is generally better.
Sure, I can make small changes. But one person making that change, or even 1000 people, isn't going change much because huge corporations create so much more pollution every day than we could imagine. They're the ones using plastic packaging for everything, and they could easily change that, but they don't.
A lot of the bigger supermarkets are actually starting to make changes in their packaging and a lot are already taking steps to go plastic free or at least reduce as much as they can. We can start by making small changes our selves which will in time lead to bigger changes. A lot of places have already banned plastic straws which cause a HUGE amount of environmental problems. It feels like the tide is actually starting to turn and we probably have David Attenborough to thank!
But bar soaps suck ass :/
You can make small changes easily (not using straws, use your own water bottle & coffee cup,
I don't like that approach. The world has to SYSTEMATICALLY look for biodegradable plastics or ban plastic in general or nothing will change.
"Making the change yourself" will do absolutely nothing in the grand scale of things.
I don't get the whole "no straws" argument. Is that for real the best you can do? The only thing to get rid of is god damned straws?
Amazing that you pretend to give a shit when you're eating meat, the worst fucking thing you could possibly be doing to the earth.
At the very least. Stop littering
My neighbours say no. They have thanked me for picking up all the trash on our street, but I see them litter a couple days later. They're just happy that I did work for them. They don't give a shit about our environment. Its odd.
I know a 95 year old man who learned to use a digital camera specifically to take pictures of his neighbors littering. Most have now stopped.
I admire that dedication.
Turning old people's obsession with things into good work!
Old people with time on their hands and a need to feel useful are a very underutilized resource
Until that old guy is a part of the HOA and you get a $500 fine in the mail for having the wrong kind of bush planted in your yard.
I love grumpy old people.
Doesn't even sound like a grumpy guy, just a guy who wants to leave the world a little better when he's gone.
I am officially the grumpy old person on my street. And I'm no where close to 93. I do have a camera, though.
When they use their powers for good like that guy yes!
Can't wait for the day when I don't give a crap anymore
I can't wait for the day when society accepts that I don't give a crap anymore.
The hero we need
Truly, The Greatest Generation. It will be a tragedy when they’re all gone.
I'm just imagining the old man taking his pictures and printing them off. Then he puts on a trench coat and fedora and gives them to his neighbors in a manila envelope like he's blackmailing them.
I was imagining him stepping out in the street and taking pictures. Urging them on, like a photographer shooting a model. "Oh yeah, baby, show me some more plastic. Oh, and the diapers, we need more diapers!"
Shame is often the best teacher.
This is the most badass thing I've read in a while. If he's still alive, give him a \m/ from me.
That’s amazing
Does he catch them in the act? I find it hard to believe that he stares at his neighbors all day with a camera ready so he can catch them littering.
He liked to walk around the neighborhood, while doinfg that he would clean up trash and started catching people littering. Got the camera because they ignored him until he started taking obvious pics. He never did anything like post them on the internet and it was mostly younger people who did it so threats to tell their parents and show the pictures worked.
Although he did have the police called on him once be a neighbor. police said what he was doing was legal.
Oh I'd have love to hear that conversation.
"He was taking pictures of me while I was on the street."
"Oh. Well, what were you doing?"
"I was throwing this banana peel on the grass."
"...So you were littering?"
Wait... biodegradable food products really are considered litter? Is this only in cities? My parents always encouraged it in our rural area. Not like, "Sure, throw your burger out the window instead of in the trash" but if we had an orange peel in the car, we were allowed to throw it out.
While this is up to the states since there's no federal statue, I'd be very surprised if this wasn't the case for the vast majority, if not all of them.
What is and is not litter?
Litter is trash that is not disposed of properly in a trash can. When it’s in the can, it becomes garbage. Anywhere else, it’s litter. Just to be clear, the following is definitely and undeniably LITTER:
Cigarette butts – they’re small but they’re a nuisance
Gum and gum wrappers – anything less than two square inches is considered microliter, a growing problem on Texas roadways
Apple cores – even though they’ll decompose
Trash that flies out of a car window or truck bed — accidentally or otherwise
I've spent the last ten years passing this lie onto my kids, then. I considered myself a moderate environmentalist, AND I'm an environmental analyst by trade. I guess everyone can learn something about the thing they're considered an expert in doing. Wow. I'll be fixing that and undoing the indoctrination of my children and husband. Haha....
Thanks for the information!
To paraphrase Officer Cooper from Southland: "So how about I come to your house and take a shit on your lawn? I mean, since it is biodegradable."
But in all seriousness, the general idea is that you don't want to be throwing shit onto the ground that has the possibility of getting moved elsewhere due to the elements and/or wildlife. A banana peel isn't a problem on someone's lawn. But it is a problem if it manages to find its way onto a roadway/sidewalk. Better to just put it in a trash can (or compost pile if you have one) where it belongs.
We've always tried not to be rude about it. We wouldn't throw anything in anyone else's yard, no matter the organic material involved. If it's my own yard, I'm definitely tossing a bit of an orange peel or something, but even then we have an insane amount of fire ants in our region and I try not to tempt them into my yard with anything.
Either way, if it gives an appearance of trash in the area I'm tossing it, I just don't do it. Even out in the wilderness on the job now, I'll be more conscientious about what it is and it's impact. Ironic (or ignorant)) that I didn't consider it while doing environmental impact studies for the DOD
Huh, good on him for taking walks every day at that age. Hope I'll be like that.
Probably because they discovered they'd be paying hundreds and potentially thousands of dollars for being a slob.
that's when you need to put all the trash you pick up on their doorstep
In this instance i think id have a new spite hobby.
And then light it on fire.
"God will burn it all at the end." Said by more than one relative about littering.
They're killing Earth-chan
Call them out on it.
This is why the tragedy of the commons is untrue
The amount of trash that people just throw into my yard as they are walking down the street is ridiculous. It feels like I am constantly out there picking up cans, cigarettes, candy wrapping... I am lucky that my very close neighbors also keep their yards clean, otherwise I would be like you and cleaning up a lot more than my own lot.
That’s when you put it on their doorstep. Even bag it up if you want, but let it be known that you know it’s their shit.
They should get tasered. Zzzzzdt.
Save it all up for a year and if they see you picking up all their stuff tell them exactly what you plan om doing with it. If they keep doing it let them have it...allll back.
My god. I would literally buy some kind of mask and do them physical harm. I fucking HATE litterers. I'm not saying you should beat them and make them eat the garbage. Because that would be illegal. Definitely not saying that.
ULPT: compost for a month and dump it on their lawn. It’s good for the environment but they’ll hate it. Burn your bridge. (/s of course lol)
This is why I love Gov Dukakis, even though he is mostly known as a national laughingstock after his disastrous presidential campaign decades ago.
He is a former Governor and presidential candidate who is now retired, and you know how he spends a good chunk of his time? Picking up litter around the Boston area. He is known for it and I've seen him myself multiple times. He's pretty old now and he just shuffles along the side of the road in a cheap windbreaker with his trash bag and poking stick, picking up litter.
He also collects turkey carcasses from his community after Thanksgiving to make big stockpiles of broth that he then gives away.
I genuinely didn't know people actively littered until I was maybe 16. I had always assumed littering was people who forgot their cup on a picnic table at the park or threw some paper in a trash bin but missed and didn't notice.
The first time I saw someone finish a soda and just throw the cup down on the sidewalk, I was incredulous.
For reference, most of the plastic that ends up causing environmental problems comes from dumps. As in, someone threw it away properly but someone else didn't account for a 100-year flood in their landfill design.
Another problem is plastic waste from building materials--especially anything that can blow away in the wind or wash down a storm drain.
Then there's the regular losses of containers from container ships (a few every day!). Those dump loads of plastic into the oceans.
Source on your food claim?
Source on your food claim?
Do I really need a source to point out that 100 years worth is a lot of food?
Actually, I know you meant "flood" :)
No, I don't have a source on that. I just remember countless news articles over the past few decades showing mountains of trash that floated away and eventually washed up on beaches after flood events like Hurricane Katrina, Maria, etc etc.
You can read all about it though:
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2015/01/150109-oceans-plastic-sea-trash-science-marine-debris/
And let's also wake up to the fact that helium balloons and sky lanterns are trash. Currently there's a pharmaceutical ad on TV featuring joyful people watching the launch of hundreds of sky lanterns, all of which will come down later to endanger wildlife and maybe set a fire or two. Same for releasing helium balloons at weddings and funerals. It should be illegal. Just stop.
Also add in microbeads and glitter to this!
Glitter is just the worst thing in every conceivable way
I love sparkles like crazy, but even I have to agree with this. Some companies have started using biodegradable glitter, though, so when I want glitter I buy from them now.
Whoa, link please? I might need a few buckets of this. :D
www.milliedollarbeauty.com is one i know of.
Haha, I don't know if you can get buckets of it yet, but Lush products use biodegradable glitter.
Edit: A quick google search also turned up Eco Glitter Fun. Theirs is made of cellulose.
Any glitter that doesn't biodegrade immediately lasts too long.
Glitter is something that really only came on my radar in recent years, I just never thought about it before. In my early 20s I was really big into the Florida rave/party scene. It kills me thinking about the metric ton of body glitter I went through in that time period. I wore it and then went swimming in the ocean on many occasions.
Thankfully it didn't cost you your eyeball either: https://imgur.com/gallery/yX598
Fuck glitter.
Wow... that's terrifying. I will now forever be paranoid about having glitter near my eye.
"..the pocket of pus exploded all over my face and hair."
OH MY GOD WHAT
Poor woman.. but she really seemed to keep her head up. I'm sure inside she was not at all prepared for her ordeal, but her jokey tone in every post shows she's super mentally strong.
...yeah, that link's staying blue for me, dawg.
how did she get glitter in her eye?
That was crazy! What a woman, though. She really kept her sense of humor.
Why did I click this link oh my god.
Yeah when the glitter eye makeup trend started I thought about "wasn't the first thing mom said about glitter was to not get it near your eyes?"
Yeah I'm not clicking on that
Boop, there goes the eyeball.
Jesus Christ. I didn't need that first thing in the morning...
could be NSFL for someone
Shut the fuck up. That is horrific.
Something something herpes
Theres eco options for glitter now.
www.milliedollarbeauty.com
People also wash it off in the sink or tub, and it gets into the water supply that way.
TBF. Glitter while probably never leaving, I imagine is of the appropriate size and densty to simply become "sand" in the bottom of the ocean. SO maybe our beaches eventually look like the top of you ass crack after a rave, but overall, not really impactful except to sand colored creatures...
Those microbeads though fuck shit up.
The ol' Herpes of Art Supplies.
glitter = craft herpes
Something something herpes
I've always heard glitter referred to as "The aids of the arts and crafts world." It gets everywhere whether you want them to or not. Like sand at the beach.
Lies. Glitter tends to be found on the skin of very attractive women who have questionable taste in men. I love glittery women.
Glitter is the herpes of the arts n' crafts world.
You just can't get rid of it. It's the herpes of craft supplies.
OMG... fucking balloon releases! When will it end?! It especially blows my mind when cities do this. You mean to tell me NO ONE brought up a massive kill off of wildlife when you release 1.5 million balloons?!
Noooooo I never thought about the glitter!! :(
I fucking love sparkles and glitter but now that you bring it up it's painfully obvious that it's really bad for the environment. Gonna have to research and see if anyone's made eco-friendly glitter.
Comment right above yours says there is seaweed based glitters.
Oh sweet!! Somehow I missed that. Thanks for letting me know!!
www.milliedollarbeauty.com
It was my understanding that microbeads are banned now, at least in the US
luckily they are in the process of being phased out. They will be completely banned within the next year or two I believe.
Ah, great to hear. I was dreading someone correcting me and saying that they got around the ban somehow
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but they are banned only in certain products (personal products that are rinsed off). I think this is a great step and they hit the biggest target, but they can still be in a lot of products (e.g., makeup, lotions, detergents) and it is very difficult to track down what products they are in.
Yeah Europe really needs to step up its game on micro dad's, the US outlawed them years ago
Only 200lb+ dads are allowed in the US.
Hahaha nice catch 😉
Plastic microbeads are becoming replaced by ground walnut shells, ground sea shells and other non-polymer materials. It will be fixed within the coming decade.
But, how am I supposed to carry my jars of microbead cream back from the store without a glitter-covered plastic bag?
I don't know if it's fake or not but I saw some thing on Facebook recently where people were putting glitter on their tires. Why don't you just dump a whole thing of glitter in the middle of the street? It's the same fucking thing.
Most areas in the US seem to be moving towards regulating against microbeads in hygiene products, so theres that. Something positive, I guess.
Didn't microbeads just get banned?
Glitter is the worst.
My Mom sends me stuff with glitter on it just because she knows it pisses me off.
Bath and Body works had this awesome Men's Mentha body wash that I used exclusively until I found out that plastic micro-beads were turning into an environmental disaster. I stopped using the body wash at that point and really miss it....but I'd have been perfectly happy to use the body wash without any plastic nonsense at all.
Both of which are made of plastic ;)
Depends if it's art herpes glitter or just seaweed "glitter" which is just reflective little bits. I think mica is also used in this way?
Mircobees?
Microbeads have been banned, but they gave manufacturers such a large time span to "accomdnate." It's like, 2025 or some B.S.
And synthetic fibers in clothes like polyester.
You can replace the plastic bags you put fruit and vegetables in at the grocery store with lightweight cloth ones. Mine are made up of a netting material with a drawstring. I also use them as delicate bags when doing laundry
Where did you get your produce bags? I just forgo the bags altogether (since I'm going to wash my produce anyway) but it drives my roommate nuts. I'd be down with a cloth bag compromise.
I think mine are the "rethink reuseable produce bags" or at least those are the ones I can find online that look closest to mine (can we link to products in this sub?).
I got them at a local hipster shop in a 4 pack with different sizes. If you have any locally owned kitchen shops they might have them, but they should be pretty wildly available online.
Looked these up--they are pretty cool, didn't know they existed. I hope Walmart lets me use them (sadly, Walmart is usually the best option for groceries in my area).
I've used them there and at most major grocery stores. I try to be conscious that they are a little inconvient for the employee checking me out so I'll take a sticker off the produce and stick it to the label on the bag or i don't close the drawstring until after checkout
Will they actually take out the tare weight of the bag?
No they don’t. However I calculated the extra cost of using them and I think I came up to about $30 for the whole year, which is worth it to me.
Yeah. Definitely. Just ordered some.
There are bags available on amazon that have the tare weight printed on the tag. You still have to be that guy, but it's easier than figuring it out from scratch.
If you keep an empty one, they can put that on the scale and zero it out so the weight of the bags isn't calculated in when the produce in the bag is weighed. Every employee may not know how to do that, but it's usually just a button on the side of the scale part of the register.
I spent like 5 years working in different grocery stores in my youth.
Genius. I'll be doing the sticker move from now on- thanks!
I've used mine at Walmart! No issues.
Same here- I just put produce directly into the cart because, like you said, I'm probably going to wash/peel it anyway.
If you have ratty old t shirts you can also DIY smaller bags as well. I have alot of free T-shirts from events and I would cut them up and do a little sewing. There are a lot of tutorials on YouTube for this.
I got mine off Amazon. Inexpensive and comes in a few sizes. The nice thing is since the cloth breathes unlike plastic it's great for leafy things that like having air. It keeps my greens good for longer and also keeps them separate in case I let something stay in the fridge too long and it goes bad so it's easy to clean out
I just got some off Amazon! It has the bag weight on the tag so it can be removed from the cost of the item too.
I made my own out of mesh, thread & needle, and ribbon.
One thing to consider, with those bags, is that you're paying for whatever extra weight they add every time you buy weighed produce. I'm sure it's not a lot, but I always think about that when it comes to using a reusable bag for produce like that.
I got reusable produce bags on amazon and they're all under an ounce in weight.
The added weight of a bag or container is called tare weight. If you have a set of bags you use, weigh one on its own and mark the weight on each bag for the cashier to enter at the register if this is a concern. I have a set of heavy hemp fabric bags that came with the tare weight already sewn on them. My light mesh ones don't have it, and I suspect that they may not weigh enough to make a difference in price. I can't say for certain but I imagine there must be a point where something is under the minimum weight increment that the scale can register.
Didn't know that. I will write '2 pounds' on every bag I have to save some money.
I posted this farther up, but I'll repeat it for you (:
If you keep an empty one, they can put that on the scale and zero it out so the weight of the bags isn't calculated in when the produce in the bag is weighed. Every employee may not know how to do that, but it's usually just a button on the side of the scale part of the register.
I spent like 5 years working in different grocery stores in my youth.
Do you have a link for where you purchased that? I’ve been looking into eliminating plastic in my grocery shopping. You can PM me too. Thanks in advance!
I crochet my own grocery bags. If you are at all crafty, it's really easy to do. I occasionally make some for other people.
I get grocery delivery. They sell bananas by the weight or pre-bagged.
I tried ordering them by weight, 9/10 times they put it in a plastic bag. :/
Thankyou for this suggestion, this has been one of the things weve been struggling with. We buy tons of fresh fruit and veg and we need something to put them in our cart and when going through the checkout. Seems like such a waste.
Or at least- for the love of god- don’t bag already bagged oranges, avocados, bananas.
I saw a lady put her juice boxes (the 1l or so ones) in individual plastic produce bags once. Other than frustrating me, I'm really not sure what she planned on accomplishing...
Is there a solution to the berries that come prepackaged in plastic? I mean the obvious one is to not buy blueberries and strawberries and the like until you can go to a farmer's market and buy in bulk (only an option during the summer months here), but I do really like using them year round. I've never seen a grocery store near me that sells them outside plastic.
If you have room in your freezer you can buy a bunch during the summer and freeze them. Or buying them in the huge bulk freezer bags reduces the waste, rather than eliminating it.
I wonder if they'd be mush when you thawed them. Hmm, I might give it a shot though!
Some berries take to freezing better than others. And the ones in the grocery store are usually flash frozen which helps a little, but they will loose their structure
Have you ever bought frozen berries from the store? They'll be just like that when your home frozen ones thaw. If you haven't, yes, they'll be softer, but they will still taste just as good! A pro tip for freezing pretty much anything that has any moisture, and will therefore stick together: lay it all out in a single layer on a cookie sheet to freeze, then once it's frozen, put it in a container. This will keep it from freezing into one giant lump.
Awesome, thank you! I've bought frozen berries, but always used them frozen rather than letting them thaw.
You put your fruit with your fruit of the looms?
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I recently visited Kenya and was amazed to find out that plastic bags have been illegal there for a while. Getting caught with them brings about huge fines. It's interesting to see how much one relies on them, while also realizing how one can easily live without them.
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Nobody would accuse me if being an environmentalist
The way you felt the need is the exact reason people aren’t more environmentally proactive. They’ll get “accused of being an environmentalist” which makes it sound like a bad thing.
Our environment is the only one we have. We’ve never had another one and we’ll quite likely never have another (a new planet to host is possible but highly highly unlikely).
We need to take care of our home and remove the stigma of being a “tree hugger” for trying save our home.
I don't really think he was referring to a negative stigma around protecting the environment, it's just a turn of phrase
It’s a decent point though - i’m from the deep south of the US, and there’s a fair number of folks who will scoff at you for trying to be environmentally friendly
If you like the environment so much why don't you marry it? Huh? Answer me that.
You know what they say, if you can get the milk for free, why fuck the cow. Or something.
I'm Chris Hanson. Why don't you take a seat?
Why don’t you take a ~~seat~~ teat?
Oh I knows whos you are Chris Hanson, or as I like to call ya, Chris Handsom.
Oh naw, I ain't come looking for no little boys. I ain't got no milk, no cookies, nothing. I came looking for man's butt.
Hey rookie, did you just call my girlfriend a cow?
If plastic bottles came from oil how come there's still oil? Huh??
I've had assholes in lifted pickup trucks roll coal on my Prius.
I like to zoom past lifted coal rollers in my sports car and then go 10 under the speed limit without letting them pass me. I wouldn’t do it if it affected other people too but I’ve fucked with the same lifted truck for miles on the freeway.
I got your back, buddy
If the libruls get their way, you CAN marry it! /s
Cause its not my cousin
Les Cousins Dangereux
Roll Tide
What're you, queer fer trees? That's the third worst sorta queer 'sides being queer for 'bama and being queer fer queers.
Because God made Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Treebeard.
I got asked that exact question by a retired man in Alaska. For such an avid hunter/angler, he didn't give a duck about the environment. I don't understand how he can think that, but —no surprise —he watches only one channel...
Tryna get that sweet, sweet ass from Mama Nature 🍆🍑🌍💦😛😛🏔🏔
Well, according to those people, legalizing same-sex marriage has made it possible to marry the environment.
Suppose they could marry their dog, and suppose they could marry their sister-girlfriend; but I repeat myself.
those same people keep making that illegal!
The environment ain't no cousin o' his
"His gift is a curse, forget the Earth, he's got the urge to pull his dick from the dirt and fuck the whole universe." -Eminem
I would but it’s still illegal.
cuz you gon' done made it illegal for me to do that!
It ain't my cousin that's why.
yeah queer
Because unlike when you married your cousin, it's not actually possible to marry the environment.
agressively rolls coal
You were the one saying gay marriage would lead directly to stuff like that.
Because I don't respond to asinine comments that sound like they were pulled out of a 12 year olds ass.
When you use the term "environmentalist" in the South it congers up images of PETA or some fey dude with dreadlocks smoking pot. If you say a "conservationist" that is cool
I'm in Finland and you'd think we're fairly progressive here, and sure I guess on the whole we are, but I've still met people who proudly declare that they don't recycle anything. It's such a baffling mindset.
Same here. But I live in Texas so it isn't baffling.
It's still baffling. I don't understand what people have against recycling/taking care of the environment
"Only God can change the climate." That's a real thing that people believe.
They don't have anything against it, they just think it's totally unnecessary because the people that they trust/are influenced by have told them that it's all fearmongering nonsense, that the Earth will take care of itself, and all these people going around trying to save the Earth are only doing so to be high-and-mighty about it. The websites they go to and the TV they watch say the same thing. More than likely, so do all of their friends, and the politicians they vote for.
It's hypernormalization.
The same folks who roll coal, I would assume.
I was part of a survey study on electricity monitoring in Summer 2014, and some people would do the electrical equivalent of this with their power bill to see their power usage spike.
For entertainment or protest, or maybe sheer mental retardation. Fuck these people and the sand they bury their heads in.
I can't imagine doing this given the lengths I've gone to over the last couple of years to lower our power bill.
like replacing all your LED light bulbs with incandescent.
Other way around, and that’s the smallest thing I’ve done.
What are you, some kind of environmentalist?
/s
I try to be ;)
But.....why? At least with Rolling Coal there is a visual/audio aspect to it....but using more power in your home?
Specifically it was for Home Energy Monitoring systems (HEMS), similar to Nest and so on. Reducing kWH on a large scale is incredibly good for power grids and CO2 levels, too.
Anyway, they wanted to be the contrarian douchebags to literally watch their power usage levels spike, when compared to regional averages. Like a leaderboard.
Well that's something fucking ridiculous I hadn't heard about. TIL but almost wish I didn't.
There are few things that can make me go from generally pascifist to redneck-genocidal rage like getting coal rolled.
I'm asthmatic and have been attacked by those fuckers while running. And yeah, it is an attack because I could be fucking hospitalized if I didn't carry medication.
Elsewhere in the world
The practice of rolling coal has not spread enough to justify legislation outside of the United States.
Yeah, sounds about right. This is the most 'Murica type of thing I've seen in a while.
They do it to people they perceive as liberal, so people on bicycles, anybody in a Prius, anybody in a Subaru, and apparently even my old Lexus is liberal, as I've had people do it to me multiple times in it. This is in goddamn Alaska too, not Mississippi or Alabama or something.
If I had some omnipoptent like powers, I'd remove those kind of people from existence. What the actual fuck is wrong with them?
They believe that the world is out to get them and take their rights, and it's people in Priuses and on bicycles that are going to do it, so they must fight them by showing how assholish they are.
Dude yeah. Reading nutrition labels too seems to be seen as something to be embarrassed about. Like damn...
These are the same people that champion ignorance as a virtue.
Me too, and "scoff" is putting it gently. In some communities, showing any concern whatsoever for the environment is a 'liberal' thing to do, and 'liberals' are the worst thing that ever happened to this planet. To these people it is a much, much bigger concern than pollution. Literally, as in not-hyperbolically, they are PRO-TRASH because that is seen as anti-liberal. It is horrible, and insane.
People who watched their families succumb to the cancer of Fox News etc. and turn into these monsters over the last two decades... I feel you. Dark days.
The south has this wonderful ethos of
"My life sucks and don't you dare change it!"
Look at pretty much all objective measures of quality of life: Health, environment, income, education, etc.
Look at west Virginia.
I too grew up in the deep south, faithfully watching Captain Planet whenever it was on TV and paying attention to all the "reduce, re-use, recycle" campaigns that school or media brought to my attention. I was probably a little pushy for my family and classmates to learn how to recycle and fix broken things instead of throwing them away to buy new ones. I remember being called a "hippy tree-hugger" like it was something dirty. And this was the late 80s, early 90s when we were all about saving the whales and hugging but not with nuclear arms.
I know exactly how you feel.
Eco-friendly means politics in the south. Drives me crazy.
I instantly and forever got labelled a "Greenie" after I freaked out when my father-in-law suggested to pour used car oil over the weeds in our yard to kill them.
The thing that gets me is that it's the people that love the environment the most who take that attitude. You go hunting for two weeks a year and go fishing every weekend you possibly Can? Better make sure your truck is rolling coal and all your beer cans end up in the river.
Not from the south, but my MIL once made a point of putting her plastic bottle in the trash EVEN THOUGH it was one of those trash cans that was connected to the recycling bin. She did it intentionally, because caring about the earth is for liberal hippy treehuggers.
scoff at you for trying to be environmentally friendly
That's really sad :( What do you think their reasoning for that is? Is it just trying to be macho and blasé or do they actually believe that climate change isn't real?
I'm from Seattle so it's pretty much the opposite here; if you aren't conscious about recycling properly, reducing waste and sourcing food people will look down on you.
If you're trying to find reason in the attitude of the majority of the deep South, you're not going to get too far.
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Honestly it might depend on where they live and the local programs too. I have family in KY and they recycle aluminum cans only. Their trash pickup will not take glass, any plastic, or cardboard and they have no means of easily recycling those at a place that does take it, so into the trash it goes.
Coming from a place that recycles everything except #6 plastic, it makes me cringe to put that stuff in the trash but unless things change in their local government there sadly isn't much to be done.
I live in a very evangelical Christian area in Appalachia and most people here actively think trying to save the planet is a literal biblical sin. I’ve been told it means you don’t have faith that Jesus is coming back.
I never understood that dynamic. The deep south's largest industry for the longest time (and likely still a major part) is farming. Farming depends on a well-taken care of environment. Climate change, trash-filled dirt, chemicals and other undesirables in the local water supplies; all of these things negatively affect the agriculture industry. I don't understand how the mindset regarding "environmentalists" can be so negative. Even considering that "environmentalists" also tends to get coupled with "pro-regulation", I'd have to think the average farmer sees the positive effect of policies that keep their industry in good shape and would support the average person who makes those decisions regardless of law or legislature.
I ride a bicycle and have been "coal rolled" by pickups with modified catalytic converters several times.
Rollin' coal!
I used to get bothered about it, now I have a pin on my bag that literally says "tree hugger". If they don't like it they can go fuck themselves.
Don't worry. They are.
...Or, their grandchildren anyway.
Are those the same people that routinely dump their trash and cigarette butts out the car window while driving down the road?
I’ve been living in Australia since 2010 and it truly horrified me last year when I realised my parents don’t recycle at all. They live in Georgia.
In oklahoma, and I have another older engineer in my office that said, out loud, on purpose: "I immediately write off anything with eco in the name." the way he nearly spat the word eco out was like a child spitting out Brussels sprouts. He also claims climate change isnt real. It's pathetic.
ROLLING SMOKE, STARS AND BARS, AND MASSIVE TRUCK NUTS!!! YEE HAW!!!
Coal rolling intensifies
I'm in Florida and most of us get really pissed off when some Jack ass litters a bunch of trash or leaves their Tangled tackle. We just pick it up and throw it in the back of our trucks to dispose of later.
We're all guilty of a beer can or two though.
A tree hugging liberal. As if you couldnt respect the environment and still be a conservative.
I can second this.
You don't even need to be in the deep south - I get it when I'm in Silicon Valley...
Yeah, and that attitude kind of goes hand-in-hand with a lot of anti-intellectualism.
Please stop picking on the freaking South. It's everywhere in middle America.
Thank you. “Country” people exist 20 minutes out of every major American city. We have towns here in Washington that fit the average “Alabama” description but you guys get all the hate
and there’s a fair number of folks who will scoff at you for trying to be environmentally friendly
I do that sometimes, but that's because a lot of "enviroment friendly" people don't know what the fuck they're all talking about and like to preach things that don't change anything, or, in some cases, make things worse.
And then they get offended when you tell then that avoiding GMOs and eating "organic" is not at all "environment friendly".
Nevermind the fact that you are an actual Earth Scientist, certainly their office job has teached them better.
Shit. I live in San Francisco, and I get flak when I suggest people not leave their cars idling while they come upstairs to deliver stuff to me (think groceries, not UPS).
Would you feel offended if someone scoffed at you for using your turn signal? Social stigma is all relative and when you put it into perspective there is no right or wrong so much as a life that we choose or are forced to live. /Endrant
but there's definitely a certain segment of the population that's been conditioned to think that living green or eating healthy is somehow a bad thing. I've noticed that there's a strong overlap between people with that attitude and people who think that "liberal" is a smear.
From the standpoint of the powers that be, the best way to maintain control over a growing population is to control education, communication, and health. You have to provide these services... just not too well. Teach them stuff, just not too much and teach them the wrong stuff if it's convenient. Let them talk and give them a network to move about and form societies, just make sure they don't share too many ideas, need those thought patterns rigid. Make sure they survive long enough to contribute an entire working life at some level, they don't need to be smart or well spoken, we just need to not lose the damn things after putting in 15-20 years training it, so at least keep em healthy for as long.
I'm not pointing out anything cosmic, just saying our country has masterfully crafted its population and is stepping on the throat. Our education has always been barely good enough because the governments goal isn't to breed success, it's to breed mediocrity. Our ability to speak freely has always been under attack, and today calling it "the land of the free" is a fucking mockery. Not that we don't have freedoms... just losing more by the day. Health is always funny to, especially when the president claims we have the highest taxes among western countries, lol yeah right if you wanted 10% more of my salary per year we'd be on par, and I'd pay it gladly if I was confident the 1% were doing their part and the money was actually being allocated well.
All this ramble I didn't mean to write to you to say, the large population of people with strict, rigid thought patterns like this make me sad. Their minds have been formed with a deliberate lack of care.
"What are you, a damn liberal hippy tree-hugger?"
I’m conservative and think protecting our environment is important. What better thing to conserve than the beautiful and historically rich forests and landscape of America
Exactly, what the fuck are GOPers conserving? I've never had one have an answer to that.
Conservative generally refers to smaller government. Think in terms of the amount of legislation and such that gets passed. Traditionally liberals pass more legislation than conservatives.
The Modern GOP is anything but conservative though. That’s just a facade
Conservative used to mean you were a Tory who supported the monarchy and opposed liberal republicanism. Now it’s “Constitutional conservatism” which means you support conserving the liberal republican founding documents in the original context. And liberal means reforming it. And “Progressive” means trying to mold society into the “One Best System” which used to mean Eugenics and Temperance alongside trust busting and forming land trusts to protect open spaces from development.
Anyway, all of these philosophies are constructs within the same parameters of liberal republicanism. All of them are not what we want
So what does that translate into them conserving? Conserving the existing legislation? Conserving the status quo? Conserving extremely wealthy peoples wealth while not conserving poor and middle class peoples? I'm struggling to understand where the word 'conserve' even comes into play here.
Conserving the liberal republican founding documents in their original, literalist context.
Well, where do those documents talk about spending trillions on fighter jets, not letting transgender people use the bathrooms of the gender they identify as, or putting the life of a fetus over an adult woman? If conserving the founding documents is what it's about, then we should clearly be free to have all the abortions we want.
God, we need to stop associating liberalism or conservative-ism (which are economic attitudes) with completely unrelated common sense topics - environmentalism, human rights (ex. LGBT).
*conservatism
I tend to be a libertarian, I got introduced to libertarian ideas by a buddy of mine who happens to be gay.
I've lost count of how many times I've seen people call him homophobic because he doesn't agree with whatever legislation people want to put into motion to "protect" LGBT people.
Interesting! Could you give me examples?
I'm in Brazil, so it's not going to be the same legislations.
We are both grad students, he is much more involved than I am with social movements at the university, but just last year the student movement was demanding for the University to start creating positions exclusive to LGBT students, like they already do with black students (Which both he and I am against), he campained hard for it to be repealed by the University's board and got all kinds of hatred through social media and his phone, calling him a homophobe among other things.
He also defends that business owners should be able to deny service to gay people, that it should be the people's responsibility to boycott such businesses. I tend to agree with the principle, but have doubts about it's real world applications (It's the case with a lot of libertarian ideal, which is why I say I'm a soft libertarian. My friend is almost an anarcho-capitalist).
They've been conditioned to think it's gay. And they've been conditioned to be homophobic.
The same people use the term "cuck" un-ironically.
There is a large contingent of Americans who think that the Al Gore was only talking about climate change because he wanted to make some money. They believe that environmentalism is a liberal idea which means it must be bad. I wish I was making this up.
That's because most self-identified and vocal "environmentalists" aren't just normal people making small changes in their lives, just like most self-identified and vocal "feminists" aren't just people interested in equality.
I'm don't oppose nuclear power or pipelines which are magnitudes safer than transportation by ship or train, nor do I oppose capitalism more generally. Sure, I use canvas bags at the grocery store but at an environmentalist demonstration my moderately conservative viewpoints would get me labelled nazi scum and I would probably be attacked.
Is now the time to point out that the extremists on any side always talk the loudest and ruin it for everyone else?
I'm also fine with nuclear power, but I would like to shift to more solar and wind and other alternative power sources. Not a fan of oil and natural gas, although I accept them as a necessary evil for the time being.
So you just want to use up all the sun’s energy??? /s
Look, scientists say that there's about 100 years of energy left in the sun, so I'm for it. I'll be dead by the time we run out of it. /s
Not that I disagree with you but mainstream "movement environmentalism" seems to be a pretty unwelcome place for anyone to the right of "progressive". I believe the conservative equivalent would be "conservationist".
I like to generalize too. Every conservative ever has his head up his own ass
Sure thing. Find me self-identified "environmentalists" who don't oppose nuclear power, oil pipelines, capitalism, and conservatives. If my generalization isn't correct, you shouldn't have a problem providing multiple examples.
"feminists" aren't just people interested in equality.
This is because the point of feminism isn't equality, but female liberation:
liberation from having to be the one to remember our spouse's mother's birthday, liberation from being expected to pay more for our clothes and to wear makeup, liberation from being expected to be caregivers and/or bear children (not all of us want to); liberation from unequal social rules that continue to oppress women....
If we wanted equality, we would say that we think men should be oppressed in the same ways; for example, we would say that males should also be forced to wear heels and hose and makeup if their female counterparts are also forced.
So you only want equality in the areas in which women do not hold the superior position?
If we wanted equality, we would say that we think men should be oppressed in the same ways;
There are two ways to make 7 and 10 equal, you could subtract 3 from 10, or add 3 to 7. It is quite telling that you prefer negativity as the method to equalize.
we would say that males should also be forced to wear heels and hose and makeup if their female counterparts are also forced.
This is an ironic example given that actual business dress codes restrict men to suits and ties, whereas women have the full scope of clothing options.
liberation from being expected to pay more for our clothes
Men's clothing is more expensive
liberation from having to be the one to remember our spouse's mother's birthday
No one is forcing you to do this
liberation from being expected to be caregivers
You want liberation from other people's thoughts? How does that work? Do you feel their thoughts psychically? Do you presume to have ownership over the minds of strangers, such that you can pick and choose what they think? That's pretty entitled.
liberation from being expected to... bear children
Wow, is there a government somewhere that is forcing you to create children through sexual intercourse?
Do you think you have a firm grasp of reality? I'd say you have very little grasp at all if you believe the things you apparently believe. For one, you don't seem to know what "force" means, or worse, you know what it means but use it dishonestly?
Wow. I realize this is Reddit so you are getting upvotes, but this is a pretty big stereotype on your part. Which is kinda sad since this is supposed to be my safe space.
How do you turn a phase?
Right click and select “Rotate 90 Degrees Clockwise”.
The fact that the phrase exists means there's a stigma. Language reflects reality.
It’s a turn of phrase inspired by the stigma.
The expression definitely has a negative connotation in a lot of circles.
"Turn of phrase" sounds like environmentalist hippy propaganda to me!
But it's a turn of phrase that had become common because of the stigma.
How do you turn a phrase?
We need to take care of our home and remove the stigma of being a “tree hugger” for trying save our home.
This is the crazy thing to me. Why are people PROUD about having a messy, polluted home? It'd be like taking pride in never doing the dishes.
I know people who only use paper plates and plastic utensils because they don't do dishes.
This is exactly why no one identifies as a feminist either, despite largely agreeing with the positions feminists take.
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I would encourage you to try to cut the plastic bags anyway. If you have old ones saved, keep using those until they run out but try not to accumulate any more.
I've been using reusable fabric grocery bags for about 4 years now, but I still use the plastic bags I've hoarded over the years as garbage bags, lunch bags, etc until they're dirty or fall apart. At this point I think Ive finished all the plastic from my pre-fabric bag days, but I still have a steady supply of plastic bags coming from the days that I forget my fabric ones. Worst case scenario I could always do one grocery trip and have 8 new plastic bags in stock, but that has never been necessary.
You'll probably never really run out of plastic bags even if you try. I think you'd be surprised.
Our environment is the only one we have.
Looks accusingly at NASA
Sure would be nice if we got to work on a spare, huh?
Well said, but having said that we as a species have always been shitty home-keepers. I was reading in a book by Harirri that pretty much holds homo sapiens accountable for killing most of the megafauna and flora everywhere we migrated to. Then there's the whole domestication of animals. It's all just a bad, bad history which would make Black Widow's ledger seem less red.
I once had an ex semi-jokingly tell me while I was car shopping that he’d lose respect for me if I got a Prius or similar hybrid. Couldn’t give me a single logical reason why, just that it would label me as a hippy dippy librul, and we couldn’t have that.
Yeah this attitude is so terrible and it's just crap. I work in a polymer research lab for a well known cosmetics company and we used to have our coffees in little disposable cups every day! I was shocked when I arrived! Then my colleague bought mugs for everyone and everyone made fun of him and complained. He basically said "yeah we're using these cups now deal with it" and we all do but they all bitch about having to clean them.
Nobody would accuse me if being an environmentalist
Sounds like he does something to offset this. Like littering cigarette butts or something.
I wish this had as much visibility as the original comment
the Rolling Coal crowd. just google/youtube for people who "roll coal" when they see a Prius to lose all faith in humanity.
The first step is to not make it a political thing. The environment is something everyone lives in, even Republicans. Show how environmental damage is affecting their own lives, their businesses, etc. Don't make it a "save the polar bears because big business is evil and I am so morally righteous".
It's like being a feminist. For 99.9% of people it's entirely fine, but it brings up images of the 0.01% which is a large pink haired woman screaming about cutting penises off. For environmentalists it's like PETA and eco terrorists
It's the preachy, In-Your-Face type of activist that turns people against movements. Environmentalists are among the worst of the offenders.
It's also the "I don't care what you want, as soon as I get 51% of the votes, I'm forcing you to do it my way" thing that turns off a lot of people. Like how we had 20 years of toilets that clogged because they weren't producing enough pressure to force down toilet paper or the virtual death of incandescent lightbulbs.
I don't want to destroy our planet
Wow, I don't like that guy
It's fucking silly.
This is actually a sore subject for me because of my friends and family make fun of me for the all of the above.
At the risk of getting slammed here, I am more conservative leaning in my politics, BUT I am also Eco-Conscious.
What upsets me a little is the fact that "An Inconvenient Truth" decided to go with Al Gore as their spokesperson. It made environmentalism a political issue. Suddenly people felt they had to take sides. Before that documentary, I remember being in elementary school and teachers from our conservative little town used to preach recycling, how bad smog was in the cities, how we should reduce the amount we drive, plastic bags kill dolphins etc etc.
Those same teachers now think being green is a conspiracy forged by Obama.
I'm not saying that there shouldn't have been something drawing attention to climate change, but for heaven's sake don't pick a political figure for something that people really need to collectively agree on!
Can confirm. Drive Prius mostly because of insane MPG. Get called tree hugger a lot.
Then call out groups who spike trees and other nasty shit.
Ugh. I told my landlord I didn't want to scrub my deck with soap because it's not good for the environment and the animals. He called me a tree hugger and went on to tell me that I shouldn't worry about what's left after I'm dead. He said "the animals were here before us and they'll be here after us." I responded with "not if we kill them all, which is the track we're on now." he went on for another 20 minutes and continued to call me a hippy. I learned that day to never be there when he picks up my rent check.
Living on another planet isn't unlikely, in fact if the human race is going to continue to thrive it's inevitable. We're just pretty far from it
Hippie scum /s
Nah tree huggers are jobless smelly hippies
Only one we have right now*. We still need to protect the fuck out of it, but theres likely another sustainable environment somewhere. Just have to find it and get there. Easier said than done..
The way you felt the need is the exact reason people aren’t more environmentally proactive.
You're choosing to read it that way. He might have just meant that he's really wasteful in other ways, and not using plastic bags is one of the only ways he is proactive regarding the environment, which is hardly being an environmentalist. Like maybe he's kind of a slob who throws away away food that could be composted, sometimes throws beer cans in the trash, but the thing he does do is re uses bags. Nothing about a stigma there. If anything it reads like a slight against himself, and saying that he should take more steps to help the environment, but that at least the bags are a start.
We are definitely going to mars.
It's exactly that kind of response that makes people not want to identify as environmentalists. He's saying small changes that are inconsequential make a difference, you don't have to be a militant yoghurt-botherer.
Counterargument: we only have one life. We should make choices to maximize the enjoyment we get out of this one.
Now, I'm not suggesting necessarily that this means we should run around destroying the environment. But in cases where someone has to make choices in life based on value judgments, I personally don't mind if those people choose something that supercedes protecting the environment. One person's choices aren't going to impact the broader picture very much anyway.
And yes, I know all about the tragedy of the commons and everything. No need to explain that to me. I've heard it all before.
Genuine Thought: What if the human impact on Earth were seen as part of the natural development of the planet?
Similarly to how cyanobacteria and algae decreased the atmospheric CO2 levels so significantly that they caused an ice age and caused mass extinction of ocean life. But, they also introduced much more oxygen into the air which allowed land life to flourish.
I just feel like the "natural" environment should never be stagnant or preserved, and that the drastic changes to the Earth are what caused such significant adaptations which led to the modern climate we know and love. Who are we to say that bringing large quantities of carbon back into the cycle of things is inherently bad?
What if, as a result of higher CO2 levels, plants begin to grow larger and faster over the next 1000 years? And what if, as a result of more intense weather, that plants adapt to become more resilient to drastic temperature changes and strong winds. And what if, as a result of that, we end up with stronger natural building materials that also provide better insulation. And what if, new species of coral and ocean life evolve and decide they enjoy the warmer, carbon contaminated waters?
Are we monsters for killing our current environment, or monsters for preventing new life from arising from the future, human altered environment. We are just animals on our planet, living, and altering the world around us. Just like a beaver who dams a stream. We may cause a more significant impact than the beavers, but it is still part of our natural progression of life as a species.
No one gets angry at the meteor for killing the dinosaurs, or the algae for terraforming the planet. Why should we hate ourselves for what we are doing. In all likelihood, we will naturally progress out of our wasteful ways, to more sustainable power and resource options as they become cheaper, because they just make sense.
If we manage to have a significant impact on the planet in our ~200 years of wasteful ignorance, I seriously doubt anyone will even notice or care 1000 years from now.
I think the negative connotation of 'being an environmentalist' is the reflexive support for environmental causes (and other nature-as-woo stuff) rather than a thoughtful assessment of how best to save the environment.
We reuse our plastic bags for dog crap pickup. There's probably a better thing to use, but at least we are reusing the bags...once.
My wife is also crocheting a cat hammock out of the extra bags we have. they seem...indifferent about the prototype. Maybe once it's bigger.
What do you store trash in?
Or more importantly, what do you line the inside of your bins with?
Those reusable canvas bags are great, each one an easily hold what would normally take four plastic bags.
Make that 8, my local Meijer likes to double bag everything
There is one problem with them which is that once you do throw them out they take a huge amount of time to break down in a landfill.
Better options are cloth or canvas bags, or crocheting your own market bags (thrift store yarn for extra points) just so it has a greater durability and longer life before you need to pitch it.
I keep a few bags in my van
Go on...
Hi, it's me. Your kidnap victim.
Nobody would accuse me if being an environmentalist
I don't get that part..
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I think it means he's not openly conscious or outspoken about it. Doesn't seem to care.
My parents are not environmentalists - they complain about environmentalists, but they bring their own bags everywhere, because "I really don't want to deal with filling up my garbage with a bunch of plastic bags." They just see reusable cloth bags as common sense because it makes life more convenient for them.
I would. And i will.
You, sir/mam, are an ENVIRONMENTALIST
What do you use for trash bags? I dint know what I'd do without quickchek plastic bags acting as all my garbage bags.
This. I tried many times to use my own bags when shopping but after a while I ran out of bags for my garbage, I find it silly to leave a bag at the counter just to go buy another roll of bags for rubbish, the garbage will be incinerated anyway.
A great use for extra plastic bags you have laying around is to carry one with you as you’re walking someplace, then picking up bits of garbage and discarding the bag once it’s full or you reach your destination.
It’s a great way to help keep your neighborhood clean and to stay mindful and appreciative of your surroundings. It’s a really easy habit to form.
I keep a few bags in my van
This came across (presumably unintentionally) as really creepy.
Same here. I still use plastic bags for trash as well as those little bags for diapers and dog poo, but I no longer use them for shopping. It certainly helps that most stores don't use single-use bags anymore, but I started taking reusables with me before that law even passed. I've got a shit load of nice gift bags from my old American Greetings job as well as a stack of 7 Up bags from a House Party event, so I'm basically set for life.
Canvas bags are really great. And kind of addictive to collect. I'll feel real guilty if they turn out to be not environmentally friendly, but they can't be worse than plastic.
This reminds me I need to get a few reusables in my work bag for unexpected store trips after work. They're easier to carry on the bus too. (I have them I just am not sure where they are we just moved).
accuse me if being an environmentalist
That's really sad.
What do you do for garbage?
I can dance. What kind of garbage you got?
What do you do for garbage? The only reason I get bags at the store any more is because I use them for garbage bags. (And I don't create enough garbage to fill a big bag, I'd have 3 month old garbage in there.)
See, I want to use canvas bags. I have several but I always forget them. I leave them at home every time I go shopping. I don't know how to properly get into the habit.
I just keep them in my car so I don't have to worry about forgetting them. If I forget to bring them into the store, I can just bag my stuff at the car. But now that we have to pay for bags in California, remembering my reusable ones has become a lot easier.
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What about the wax coated paper milk cartons?
What about them? I'm not sure why this is being brought up in the context of someone's bag usage.
What do you do about trash bags in your kitchen garbage? Are there good sustainable alternatives to those plastic bags?
I just dont see a good alternative for in home plastic waste bags
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Yes but they are significantly more expensive
What do you throw your trash away in?
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Dang, I cant think of a viable alternative
What do you put your trash in?
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Aw. I’m tryin.
What about bin bags?
They make degradable bags for that now
Imma be honest. The bio-degradable bags I've seen and used have been utter garbage. No pun intended. They have no stretch and tear at the slightest touch. Now, it could be the bags I got were low quality, but, given that was my first introduction to bio-degradable trash liners, I will be hard pressed to buy them again.
On the flip side, if someone made a bio bad that I couldn't tell the difference from, hell yeah! I'll spend twice as much on that, because I'm all for saving the environment. I just don't want to have my garbage bag break in half and dump my garbage all over my front porch again....
I don't want you to be honest..I want you to lie to me
Your parent(s) have always been proud of you, and you have never let him/her/them down.
Damn that's cold
Did you just assume Rabid1500man had parent(s)
He actually did the opposite, he was lying about the parents
Oof.
You're not lying to him enough.
Your father will be back soon.
He finally found and bought the cigarettes
Now spit on my face and call me a slut.
You like that, you fucking retard?
Yes, it's terribly simple. The good guys are always stalwart and true, the bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats, and, uh, we always defeat them and save the day. No one ever dies, and everybody lives happily ever after.
Buffy: Liar ;)
Tell me lies tell me sweet little lies...
Those "biodegradable" bags still end up in a landfill for hundreds of years and degrade into biomass and methane just like everything else.
Souce: I work in consumer products and am currently pushing for actual sustainable products for a circular economy.
Per your source, do you have any alternative suggestion? I've been trying to cut down on my plastic use but the trash bags are an issue to which I thought I had no solution short of not having trash.
Really the best option at this point is to reduce the need to throw things away. In the US, approximately 1/3 of garbage is food waste that could be composted but instead it's thrown into landfills where it takes considerably longer to degrade and produces the more harmful green house gas: methane.
Look into what your community offers. Single stream recycling is a great option - however it's going through some changes right now because China has stopped accepting our recycling. But make sure you abide by the rules for single stream. The people that sort those don't spend much time makeing sure there is no contamination. If there is, they just throw the whole batch away and it ends up in landfill.
Look into industrial composters. There aren't many in the US and most of them don't accept "compostable plastics" like PLA but they all accept food scraps and yard waste.
Reduce, reuse, recycle is not an equal opportunity slogan as much as it is a hierarchy. First, reduce. If you can't reduce, reuse, and if you can't reuse, recycle.
That being said, lots of thin film plastic bags have national recycling programs. I live in the Midwest and inside every Meijer there is a bin where you can recycle old shopping bags.
Environmental conciousness is hard work and requires consumer habits to change (which is the biggest challenge in my field). I hope this helps and little. At this point there isn't a great option that fits all.
Thank you for this response! In this thread I also discovered r/Zerowaste so I'll be heading over there to see what more I can do in the "reduce" portion of the hierarchy.
No problem! Good luck with your sustainability. The first step is knowledge!
Those "biodegradable" are not "compostable" and don't actually help, see this site for help - http://www.plasticplace.com/blog/5-surprising-secrets-of-biodegradable-plastic-bags
Have you tried the paper ones? I'm too poor to care about the environment right now ($5 for 6 paper trash bags? I just can't) but I do wonder how well they work.
I don't understand why people line small trash cans. You just pour the small cans into a large bag at the end of the week for pickup.
If you have to throw anything sticky or wet in the smaller trash cans (our bathroom trash can gets sanitary pads and tampons, cat poop from the litter box, etc), its helpful to have the bag so you don't have to bleach out the can every day.
That really only works if you're only throwing away dry stuff. Bags are kind of essential for certain small bins, like in the bathroom.
I've used biodegradable bags and they're actually more resilient than the low end cheaper plastic bags, I get more issues with awkward stuff poking a hole through with those. Of course I use smallish sizes though, because I'm a single person living in a studio.
Watch those "biodegradable" bags though. They are not "compostable" and don't actually help - http://www.plasticplace.com/blog/5-surprising-secrets-of-biodegradable-plastic-bags
I would try and minimise plastic waste more generally so you are only using a couple of bags per week. Probably a better outcome in general.
Yeah, this is the spirit! Find out where you're using the most unnecessary plastic and do what you can to cut that out. Personally, I use way more Ziplock bags than trash bags. That is definitely where I need to cut down.
Ziplock bags are totally reusable. I’ve been washing them out after use and only tossing them once they get holes my whole life.
Your method isn't wrong, but I feel like plastic/glass tuberware would be far easier to use and wash.
I use both. Some things bags just work better for. I’m not even sure my parents did the washing out bags as an environmentally-friendly thing, just a money-saving thing. But they last for a while under normal circumstances. Bags aren’t hard to wash, but they do need to be placed over a bottle or something to dry.
What do you use them for?
Grocery stores where I live removed the free tiny plastic bags and replaced them with 5cents bio-degradable, a bit bigger bags. They're very high quality and I always use them more than once
Watch those "biodegradable" bags though. They are not "compostable" and don't actually help - http://www.plasticplace.com/blog/5-surprising-secrets-of-biodegradable-plastic-bags
Just looked close at them and you're right!
The bags are so thin, they only have one side!
This is also a problem in Norway. We have very good recycling and waste sorting systems compared with the US (no landfills anymore either), but we haven't found a great replacement for plastic grocery bags as garbage bags.
Tbf our bags are much thicker than useless American grocery bags, so they can actually be reused as grocery bags too, but the biodegradable ones suck ass.
Also, biodegradable bags are bad for landfills because when they break down they produce methane gas. You only want those kinds of bags for industrial composting.
If you use crap garbage bags, you can't lift them out the bin. But, you can tie them up while still in the bin, then dump the whole thing upside down into the wheelie bin.
I wish I could get dog shit bags made out of that crinkly, biodegradable sun chips bag. Decomposes in 6 weeks is more than long enough for that dog poop to go off ot the magic garbage dump
Decomposes in 6 weeks
Only under optimum conditions... which are basically never achieved in the real world. http://www.plasticplace.com/blog/5-surprising-secrets-of-biodegradable-plastic-bags
The biodegradable bags that are the norm in Sweden beats any non-degradable bags I have seen in the US by several orders of magnitude.
Totally agree, really what we’re asking ourselves is what is the level of inconvenience we’re willing to put up with. The non eco friendly bags can hold more without breaking and probably cheaper. By most accounts they’re more convenient, less trips to the garbage, cheaper, won’t break etc. buying eco friendly means more trips to garbage cuz the bag can’t hold as much before breaking and it’s more costly. The next question is, is the less convenient option worth the less impact it has on the environment
EDIT: inconvenience not in convenience
My solution for this this at work is to lift the can and not the bag
The technology for biodegradable plastics that can replace standard products with the same performance isn't available yet, at least not cost effectively.
Especially in containment, biodegradable trash bags and diapers for example. The whole point of these products is to keep whatever is inside contained, so why would you want it to degrade over time? Energy and time was invested in creating those materials, why would you want them to simply vanish and degrade? Also, biodegradable plastics release high amounts of methane into the air as they degrade, which is also of environmental concern.
What we need is true post-consumer recycling of plastic products. Diapers, bags, bottles all reprocessed and repurposed to create new products out of materials that already exist.
Hopefully, this will be the industry's focus in the coming years.
Do people look at the price of garbage bags? If they switched them all out for biodegradable ones and jacked up the price, I wouldn't notice at all.
I used bio-degradable bags to pick up my dogs poop...never again, would have been easier if I just used my bare hand since I ended up touching brown anyways
So I looked into biodegradable trash bags recently, at my wife's request. I kept finding a lot of claims that things biodegrading in landfills is bad because it's an anaerobic environment and therefore produces methane because of the type of bacteria that break it down. I also found a lot of claims that landfills have techniques to manage this, either by aerating the landfill so aerobic bacteria are at play, or by ensuring that it's compressed to the point that no gases can reach the atmosphere.
Then I felt like I was spending too much time researching which trash bags to buy, and I ended up just continuing to buy the mostly-recycled-plastic bags we had been buying.
I guess this isn't really that helpful. But maybe someone that knows more about the science of it will see my comment and drop some knowledge. Cunningham's Law and all that.
I think those bags just degrade into smaller (but still terrible for the environment) pieces of plastic. The best solution I know is just to generate less garbage total, so you use fewer bags. Paper bags would work, but many communities refuse ^^(pun ^intended) to take them.
Do they make ones that take more than a couple of days to start degrading? Used to use biodegradable bags to line the compost bin and they always rotted through before the bin was full.
And ziplocs? So handy for reducing food spoilage.
I've seen fabric snack bags that you can wash and reuse. I've been meaning to pick some up.
Alternatively, you could use plastic or glass containers. The plastic ones are obviously still plastic, but they last much longer than a single bag so they're probably better
Tupperware can be washed and reused a lot more times than ziplocks can.
This is the thing. Almost everyone I know reuses plastic bags as bin bags. If we get rid of them, people will have to buy massive plastic bags for small bins (that come in their own plastic packaging too) AND now they're 3 times as thick as the one time use plastic bags from the supermarket. What's another option for bin bags? Then you can ban plastic bags.
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then I cant throw away wet things into the bins
You could compost the wet stuff.
Now you're asking them to do actual thinking and work to identify and sort. They're too lazy for that.
Good thing you’re superior to “them”.
Yep. I recycle nearly everything. I've two different composting bins for biodegradable materials, separate glass and metals bins, and one for recyclable plastics. The rest gets compressed to minimize the footprint it makes. My household of 3 puts out approximately 1 'full sized' garbage bag of waste per month.
Paper would be ideal! But I'm yet to see them in Australia, everything is plastic.
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Nope, all plastic bags pretty much. Wish we did paper, would be so easy for the paper to be recycled into new bags.
You can buy smaller, thinner bin bags for your smaller bins you know. You don't have to use the massive ones.
cut and pasting from a reply above because I'm lazy: I'm in a county that implemented a plastic bag ban about a year ago. Honestly, little plastic bin-liner bags just appear - stores that are subverting the ban and I don't notice in time, take-out - idk where they come from really, but I have yet to have a shortage of bags to line my little bathroom trash cans with. It's been a total non-issue so far.
Do you really feel like you’re gonna run out of the ones you already have? I’m pretty sure I’ve got enough to last me til the second coming of Christ. Or just use paper and be sure to pour your liquids out before tossing things.
I have 3 dogs and they poop a lot! Combined with doing most of my shopping on Amazon, I am always low on plastic bags!
Could just shop less on Amazon. They completely overpackage things. Lot of excess plastic and cardboard.
But then I have to enter the shitty city I live in!
Ethics often cost convenience!
Use more plastic bags vs get more cardboard delivered to my house. Which is worse?
I don't know which is worse, but packaging isn't strictly cardboard. Lots of plastic goes into amazon's packaging as well.
That's true, I'd certainly be alright for a good while. Paper bags would be perfect and is something we have tried to look into but not really something we see in australia often.
Huh, I guess I never really thought about places where paper isn’t as prevalent. Are reusable bags popular, or does everyone just go with plastic?
They exist. People buy them, but then forget to bring them often, so you get more plastic. At least that's what happens in our household regularly.
Why do you line small bins?
It's quite common here to only have small bins in the kitchen, don't want food rotting inside the house for too long. Better smaller so you change it and bring it outside sooner.
I mean...bin bags are pretty new. My parents didn’t have them growing up. You wrap up your food-ish “dirty” trash before you put it in the bin (or compost it), you rinse out bottles and cans before you chuck them, and you clean the bin every few months. It’s just...part of life. The plastic is only there for convenience, it’s 100% not necessary.
Don't forget about good ol K Cups...
I'm in a county that implemented a plastic bag ban about a year ago. Honestly, little plastic bin-liner bags just appear - stores that are subverting the ban and I don't notice in time, take-out - idk where they come from really, but I have yet to have a shortage of bags to line my little bathroom trash cans with.
A pretty good compromise is recycling as much as you can, and composting food if you can, then you have less trash to put in bin bags = fewer bin bags. I also reuse them, so if I'm dropping off a donation to a thrift store, just take it in and they'll take the goods/clothing and I can reuse the bin bag for garbage.
I was using them for picking up dog doos on walks, but did get the biodegradable tiny ones for that purpose. They're okay.
It's probably a drop in the bucket but it doesn't hurt.
Maybe try to produce less trash
They're called trash bags in freedom land.
The more you are able to reduce your waste, the fewer bin bags you’ll need!
All plastic bags are taxed here in Ireland which has greatly reduced the amount of them. The ones that are sold now are mostly reusable bags so those bags can be reused multiple times. It's really helped clear up the environment.
Yeah you hardly ever see plastic bags caught in ditches or trees anymore
I think plastic bags were a particularly big problem in parts of Africa, as the discarded bags everywhere would hold water for mosquitoes to breed in. That caused higher incidences of malaria, which contributed to the bag bans there.
Same in rwanda
Just the other day I heard a news reporter making a spiel about how textile bags may not at all be more eco friendly. I shut him off because I don't need doubt, I need resolve to rid myself of plastic bags.
aren't textiles very specifically biodegradable?
If we can find a way to make biodegradable cheap plastics (like a biodegradable replacement for PE) then great.
Scientists have discovered a PE eating bacteria. Which is huge, but the feasibility of large scale deployment? We don't know yet.
Doesn't this sound like a bad idea? If this bacteria got loose all our stuff would basically start spoiling right before our eyes.
Possibly. It was my understanding that the bacteria could degrade and eat PE, not using it as a single source of nourishment.
Maybe they can be used in a sort of power plant. Plastic goes in, out comes heat, CO2 and water.
It just seems easier to use canvas bags than to experiment with that bacteria
You can use then for a lifetime. So what if they don’t dissolve into perfect soil once you’re done. In comparison to the mountain of plastic you would use and throw away instead, they’re fantastic...that guy is full of shit.
It's a waste vs. carbon issue. Plastic might be worse for the environment its disposed in, but it's more energy efficient to make than most other materials.
Why is energy efficient to make important? It's just an initial investment to save energy down the line. My wife's used the same 10 reusable bags for 5 years... As a bachelor I would have gone through thousands of plastic bags.
Reusing a plastic bag seems like the best option, here.
Not for nothing, but Walmart has giant bins in the entrances to dump your plastic bags for recycling.
Plastic bags break after a few uses, cloth ones last for years
Yeah, but my guess would be the average lifespan for a reusable bag is much less than that, either due to it breaking, or being lost or gotten rid of some other way, or ending up in some cupboard somewhere unused (in lieu of more plastic bags).
I'm confused. If your reusable bag is in the cupboard, you can't use it in lieu of plastic bags.
I’d be interested in seeing an actual comparison of what it takes to make a few textile bags vs all the single use bags you’d ever receive while shopping. I still feel like the textile would win, but I don’t have evidence.
But there is a solution! Make your bags from old clothes you can’t donate! Strategic cutting of some old ripped up jeans, a few stitches, voila! Free bag that’s eco friendly. And maybe you learned a new skill along the way.
Edit: verbs
It's not as much the textiles themselves as the global supply chain to make them. Recycling or growing raw materials, making the fabric, assembly, and retail all almost certainly happen in different places (and possibly different continents). Plastic bags can be stamped out at any nearby factory because it's all automated.
Atlantic article about this which also links to a study.
It's also other factors you have to consider, like where they're being made and in what conditions. Is it better to buy a textile bag is that bag is made by child labour in some shack out in a 3rd world country?
I don't know if that's the case or not! But people often forget there's more to an items ethics than JUST whether it's good for the environment or not.
How is it more efficient if you use 3 plastic ones a week when you could use a fabric one for life?
Carbon-wise a cotton bag is equal to about 300 plastic bags. Just like with all “stuff” I have more cheap fabric bags than I need or could possibly use. I still think replacing them is a good idea because it’s gross to have plastic litter everywhere, just think it’s worth saying they are not really saving resources and you shouldn’t feel guilty for using plastic bags as long as you don’t litter them.
Overall bags are not a major carbon-chain problem for an individual and dont matter nearly as much as stuff like your daily commute, how often you fly, or if you eat meat every day.
That's one of those insidious suggestions that, while not based in reality, cause people to not take action seriously because 'it doesn't matter anyways'.
A similar mindset is the 'well, we can't be perfect about (name a cause) so we shouldn't bother at all.
See also: "Electric Vehicles are less environmentally friendly".
They are more eco friendly if and only if you keep on using them. But putting that aside, learn to confront opposing opinions. If you can't defend a viewpoint, you shouldn't hold it.
Sure, but you need to reuse a bag something like 50 times. It's a lot more eco-friendly to just reuse the disposable bags. If you use a disposable twice, you'd now need to use a reusable bag 100 times to make a difference.
Please explain.
Manufacturing the resuable bags creates a lot more pollution compared to creating a plastic bag. They don't "break even" until you've used them so many times that it winds up being better for the environment to reuse plastic bags until they rip rather than buying the reusable kind.
If you go to the store every week and take a few bags it'll only take 2 ish years to offset the carbon. In addition you saved mountains of plastic.
Important quote:
But tote bags have a high carbon footprint, too. In fact, reusing a single plastic bag three times has the same environmental impact as using a cotton tote bag 393 times.
You don't even need textile bags. Certain aisles of the supermarket (potato chips, milk alternatives) are absolutely overflowing with superfluous boxen that'll be compacted at the end of the day anyway. Pick one up and use it. It's easier to carry home than a plastic bag anyway and a solution to those whose supermarkets do not offer the choice of a box as an option at the checkout.
Bear in mind that almost everything that comes into the supermarket does so in a cardboard box, so provided some people bring bags to carry their dairy and fresh fruit and veg, it is a mathematical certainty that there are enough boxen to carry everythng out again.
At least Aldi and Costco, probably more but I haven't really looked around, put the boxes in bins throughout the store and near checkout. You can grab some and use them to haul your groceries home in.
They do this in South Korea. They have a self service area with flattened boxes and rolls of tape for customers to set up to put their bought stuff in
Sydney has a grocery chain that encourages exactly this! They've just banned plastic bags from all stores and you can pay for a paper or a textile one or they have literally mountains of cardboard fruit boxes for you to grab near the registers.
And added bonus, I then use these boxes as free cat beds and have multiple in my house for my catto
It's all trade offs. Plastic doesn't break down easily, sure. But fabric bags require tons (literally) of water and chemicals to produce. And then they get shipped to the store you buy them from wrapped in plastic.
A British government analysis from 2011 calculated that a cotton tote bag must be used 131 times before greenhouse-gas emissions from making and transporting it improve on disposable plastic bags. The figure rises to 173 times if 40% of the plastic bags are reused as bin liners, reflecting the proportion in Britain that are so repurposed. The carbon footprint of a paper bag that is not recycled is four times that of a plastic bag.
Unlike other kinds of pollution, plastic is an eyesore, notes Liz Goodwin of the World Resources Institute, a think-tank. Yet if a comprehensive league-table of environmental ills existed—which it does not—plastics would not top it.
https://www.economist.com/news/international/21737498-so-far-it-seems-less-bad-other-kinds-pollution-about-which-less-fuss-made
Oh really? What am I supposed to hoard cloth bags with other cloth bags inside them now?
Ever since the UK started charging 5p per bag I've been extra stubborn and used my backpack and a tote almost every time even though we can get 5p refunds on any plastic bags we return to Ocado with our weekly shop. It's just the principle of it...
That's really interesting to hear. In my state in the US, some coastal communities tried to ban plastic bags because they're bad for the environment, thus bad for beach tourism. The state legislature then passed a law saying counties and cities couldn't ban plastic bags. Seems so stupid, doesn't it?
People lived without them until the 50's or 60's, right?
Ironically it's all the developed countries that uses plastic like no tomorrow especially America with their water bottles
Because everything in the US is politicized. Its liberal or its conservative. People don't just think of what's good for everyone. My dad was at the super market and said that the guy in front of him started yelling at the cashier when she told him plastic bags were now 10 cents. He went on about how California was crazy with its liberal laws and about the "nanny state." People don't realize that plastic bags were not a thing 60 years ago. People have brought their own "bags" to the market for thousands of years.
What about garbage bags?
Everyone was up in arms for a while where I live because plastic bags got outlawed. It took all of a month for everyone to get used to it, and now it's just normal.
What do the dog owners do? A plastic bag that was already used for groceries seems like the most efficient option for picking up after the dog does his business.
Plenty of biodegradable doggy bag options.
In Bangladesh, plastic bags were replaced by fabric bags a few years ago. Plastics were banned. Then people recently went back at it. I swear it's shitty. I remember when I was younger, whenever I'd visit Bangladesh with my family in the summer, the sky would be so polluted during the day time that it'd look black with smog. Within just 10 years the government turned it around by introducing CNGs and the skies, at the very least, were cleared.
I'm talking about the city of Dhaka.
California has a ten cent fee for bags and they sell heavy duty reusable ones instead of the flimsy ones I was used to in the Midwest. It's way better just for your mindset. You realize you don't need a bag for everything and you remember to take your reusable bag to the store more often
Quite a few African nations have this law. I think Rwanda implemented it most recently. Yes, Rwanda, the place where award-winning movies have been made about how awful and violent it is, might actually have better environmental regulation than the USA.
I was in the city of Chicago last year and while buying they ask if I wanted to buy a bag I refused to buy a bag just based on the principle that they have always been given for free. Soon after refusing 4 times I found myself buying 1 but if it had been at another state I would had ended up with 5 bags.
There is zero chance that that doesn't turn into a major corruption show. Kenya has tourism to worry about so the focus may be on plastic bags for a bit.
Overall it's dubious that a nation with rampant corruption and poverty is meaningfully enforcing a plastic bag ban. One would think that functioning 24/7 electricity, paved streets, and working sewers with clean, fresh water would be the priorities. I'm going to guess Kenya has not universally adopted any of those things except for a few city centers in the rich areas.
It's also Western arrogance that assigns some type of value to 'plastic bag ban', when I could make the charge that Kenya does not have even one municipal water supply of the quality I enjoy in the US.
"But it's a good thing!" So. Schmaltzism.
They got awesome Lions too!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbYtASAakAI
They're illegal in CA as well.
Plastic grocery bags have only been a thing for around 35 years. They are in no way necessary at all.
In my area (US) a lot of towns have banned stores from giving them out. Idiots whined about it for a week or two but now nobody even notices. More places should have these kinds of laws for sure.
So then what do they do with trash?
Another solution could be to give people 5 cent return for plastic bags. At least they'd be recycled.
Does this include reusable bags? I'm pretty sure all of my bags (except for a couple of canvas ones) are plastic...
I recently visited Kenya
A bit of a tangent, but I really wish I could visit there. As a gay man, I would face up to 14 years in prison for going there.
I could do without them entirely, I think, were it not for the fact that I need something to scoop my cat's litter into.
Plastic bags are banned in the state of Hawaii. Stores are not allowed to use them or give them to customers.
Every time I go to California I get confused because of this
but how will i pick up my dog’s shit?
Since the 5p tax on disposable plastic bags was introduced in the UK, a lot of supermarkets have started only carrying reusable plastic 'bags for life'. My parents carry around a bunch of them in their cars and I keep a couple in my bag for if I go shopping after work. Just carrying a couple reusable bags with me has made me realise how easy it would be to never touch a plastic bag again and just carry around a bag made of a renewable fabric (which I will when I wear out these plastic ones. No sense in creating more waste just so I can say 'hey, I don't use plastic!').
What do they do for garbage?
Yet the place is literally covered in plastic litter with what appears to be no impetus to even attempt to pic it up. I've never been to a more litter covered country than Kenya.
Yeah, I live in Kenya... The fine currently stands at around $40,000(4mil in Kenyan shillings) maximum. But it's a slow transition, the ban was enacted almost mid last year and it's mostly enforced in cities... Rural areas and suburbs are still catching up
They also burn their trash on the side of the road in Kenya, a funny spectacle to see.
Do you want dog shit everywhere? Because that’s how you get dog shit everywhere.
You can buy small bags for picking up after dogs that are much smaller than grocery bags
You can, sure. And I do. But I’ve lived places where they’ve banned/begun charging for bags and I’ve never seen it fail to yield mass dog shit
I don't know why Snapple decided to make new plastic bottles, in a time like 2018 where a lot of people are on the lookout for stuff like that and going against its own classic very distinguishable style is just strange to me. They even advertise it as almost a good thing that theyre plastic
Glass bottles are heavy and expensive to ship. Plastic bottles can be made on site, or if they are shipped in are cheap and light. From a raw material perspective, plastic is bad because it uses oil and doesn't readily break down, but when it comes to actually moving the finished goods around the added weight of glass increases shipping costs and its environmental footprint.
Overall, I suspect that aluminum cans are actually better than both as far as their environmental footprint are concerned, but it's hard to find a full lifecycle analysis for any of the 3 drink containers. I've only found a single analysis so far and it gave the nod to glass bottles, but their analysis seemed to ignore a lot of the transportation issues and assumed that glass bottles would be washed and refilled 30 times rather than recycled into new glass bottles.
you would be amazed how bad alluminium cans really are in terms of energy content. (tbh, i only ever did the data on allu-foil, but oh boy, that was bad)
In my opionion the reason it is hard to find conclusive data, because the teachings concentrate on different aspects, and are generally sudied by different ppl.
"resources" driven studies: glass is best: 100% recycle rate, no loss in quality. aluminium is good, close to no loss in quality.
"energy" driven studies: plastic is good, because efficient transport and can be reused and finally burnt for energy.
"environmental" driven studies: glass is good, because of reused, followed by reusable plastic containers. Effect on living environment and animals is considered. (so waste disposal options)
"primary energy studies" only reusable glass is good, and only if filling station is on point of sales. not only the energy content is considered, but also the energy quality is considered. (so prime petrol is worth much more than waste plastic for the same energy content)
I've heard that aluminum cans are the most easily and quickly recycled packaging material.
Recycling aluminum uses a lot of electricity so it may be quick and easy but it isn't cheap.
edit:
But as some have pointed out compared to refining raw aluminum recycling is much more energy efficient making it typically profitable to recycle aluminum.
Recycling aluminum actually doesn’t use a ton of energy - it’s the first smelting of aluminum (primary aluminum) (smelting meaning the of turning alumina to aluminum) that uses the large percentage. Recycling is less than 5% of the energy used to smelt primary aluminum.
Aluminum has a decently low melting point, especially compared to steel, so energy to keep the melting furnaces going for recycling isn’t too bad.
With primary (first gen) aluminum smelting, it’s not a melting process but is instead a electrolytic conversion process where energy breaks apart alumina by running electricity through a carbon anode and cathode. The oxygen from alumina bonds with the carbon, and the aluminum is left as a free element.
Smelting of aluminum is really only cost efficient with low cost energy sources so often smelting plants are built near hydroelectric dams or even geothermal. (Of course in some cases, they were built near cheap coal power plants too).
Yeah. What's that expression? "Good, fast, and cheap—pick any two."
false. MAKING aluminum takes a ton of energy but recycling does not.
its very easy to separate from other waste, but it is not considered 100% cradle to cradle, because you collect slight impurities which makes it only usable for certain applications.
(amongst which cans are quite low on the ladder, so it could be considered 100%)
So, based on what i know, if you live in the US, you are right.
glass is best: 100% recycle rate,
Possibly in Europe, but not so much in the U.S.
Mixed colors are commingled in most US recycling programs and the recycled glass end up green-brown and isn't desirable for glass manufacturers who mostly want clear glass.
San Francisco has a functioning recycled glass market because green-brown glass is desired by the wine business, but otherwise, recycled glass doesn't have much of a market.
In much of Europe, you sort your glass into a couple/three colors which makes it much more valuable.
there are decolorizers you can add to glass. Many large scale glass factories use them.
there are decolorizers you can add to glass
Are they for recycled glass or small imperfections in virgin glass? I see they are used for new glass, but don't see anything about their use with recycled glass.
most glass is either flint (clear), emerald (green), or amber (brown), which most glass recycling plants should have the capability to get to the right color.
Certain shades of blue glass can have drastic impacts on recycling as one blue bottle can discolor thousands of bottles worth of glass. Luckily blue glass isnt very popular so that isnt a large issue.
I've read that most recycled glass feed stock is near worthless outside of the central California and that the demand for brown-green glass is the reason.
This is consistent with development of alternative uses for recycled glass feed stock on the east coast (countertops, etc).
Why would that be if recycling plants can correct coloration with chemistry? Those seem to be inconsistent.
Aight so I was wrong.
This problem seems like it leans heavily on the recyclers side vs manufacturers though. You can definitely sort glass by color, thereby making it recyclable.
That's just how I'm seeing it, correct me if I'm wrong.
You can definitely sort glass by color, thereby making it recyclable.
Definitely, that's what they do in Europe. The problem is end-user compliance.
It is remarkably hard to get people to recycle correctly. Not sure why, but I've seen super smart, details-orientated people walk out of their way to recycle a paper milk carton in a plastic recycling bin because the carton screw-cap was plastic.
I've never seen research but I assume it exists and shows that end-user glass color sorting will fail because 10% of the glass will be mis-sorted, so the U.S. decided to not even try.
I guess if I were a dictator, I'd require every product have a largish label that clearly defined what "trash" container it which it must be disposed.
Oddly the only program that exists like that, the plastic content label isn't really used. Because everywhere I've seen sends all plastic into a common stream at the end-users. And I'd require this label on the front of the product, not molded in tiny print on the bottom of the bottle though. Although mixed products are still a problem, an aluminum bottle with a plastic cap would require some explanation.
Wait, so recycling blue glass is sort of a bad thing? Do many glass recycling plants just pick them out?
yeah, i just realized. I assumed it was univeral, because.... its so easy to organize and resmelting is cheaper than producing.
Glass is far from ideal. A lot of recycling centers have stopped or are about to stop taking glass because it's expensive to process and separate from other materials. Really good NPR discussion on 1A on this topic last week: https://the1a.org/shows/2018-03-22/recycling-show
yeah, where i live it is collected very effectively and cleanly, so i may have a bit of bias.
http://www.pascalvyncke.be/foto/11086/inzamelmiddel-brengplaats-afvalmanagement-glasbak-glasbakgebruikers-glasbakgebruiker-.html
Dammit, why can't these things be simple?
Complex issues rarely have simple solutions.
because they aren't :-).
in Europe you have reusable glass bottles. They are collected, cleaned and refilled.
Ideal, you would think.
Folowing certain teachings, you can prove it is better to use plastic. (because of the extra retour transportation movements, waterusage in cleaning,..etc). And then you have to estimate of the retour transportation would have been empty anyways, so do you need to take it into account?). And then you have the downcycling principle when recycling plastics (recycled plastic has lower quality).
so yeah... even when only scratching the surface it's not easy to be consclusive.
(and for that reason i am a big advocate of a "packaging index", which tells the consumer how "bad" the packaging is for he amount of product you buy, so he can chose wisely if he wants to)
Guess I’ll just drink from sprinklers 🤷♀️
Some parts of the US don't have access to glass recycling, such as the upper peninsula
I doubt many people know where you're talking about. He's talking about da yoop folks.
aluminum is insanely energy intensive to make initially but the vast majority of it is recycled which lowers the impact.
Aluminum is actually very good for recycling, as aluminum ore is all aluminum oxide, and breaking that bond takes huge amounts of energy, making recycling more worth it than other metals, that combined with a relatively low melting temperature makes aluminum easy to recycle to the point you see people actually doing it at home, though mostly because casting is cool.
Using oil isn't a problem. It's made from byproducts of gasoline production. So unless everybody stops driving tomorrow, we'll have that anyway.
It not breaking down is a big problem. Especially if it's not properly recycled.
It takes a fuck off amount of energy to turn sand into glass though, was that taken into account?
Also, a lot of beaches and pools won't let you bring glass bottles.
Glass, plastic, aluminium. They all seem shitty.
What about paper? Just put every drink in cartons. Seems like the best, no?
Like people said, glass is too heavy so transporting it is quite inefficient. I still buy those Starbucks ice coffees that come in glass bottles everyday. It's so tasty
I reuse glass/plastic bottles as long as they're easy to clean, and that's a major factor in which brand's stuff I buy.
Tetrapak (the cardboard boxes) can't be recycled into the same product despite being recyclable. I don't know if that's enough to make it less efficient/desirable, or if it's just the stigma of cardboard boxes looking cheap that's preventing companies from using them more.
They can’t be recycled into new tetrapaks because of hygienic reasons, we (I make em) only make it with new/fresh pulp cause of rules regarding the product in direct contact with food. The recycling of cardboard and paper with prints on it is also a very complex thing and requires a lot of steps (even for just news paper) so to have that on site would double the size of the factory I work in. But we do recycle our own cardboard that haven’t gone out and make it into center sheets in the cardboard, no waste :)
Good to know! I was originally wondering if they were recyclable in the first place due to plastic + cardboard but some quick searches showed that they were, sometimes.
What about paper? Just put every drink in cartons. Seems like the best, no?
Here's what's odd to me. Back in the 80s when you went to the grocery you got large paper bags. But paper bags were killing the environment by cutting down trees. So we all switched to plastic. Now plastic is killing the environment. So now we're discussing switching back to paper.
We recycle a huge amount of paper now, especially compared to how much was being recycled in the early 80s, so I don't think we'll go back to the original problem but...
I guess my point is that sometimes solutions seem look good but end up with a lot of unforeseen consequences. Sometimes the solution is worse than the problem.
That's why reusable cloth bags are best. Because they are made once and don't have to be replaced each week like paper, but they also don't poison our environment like plastic
Except once you consider the carbon emissions to make the bag you learn that you have to reuse it 131 times to equal the carbon emissions of one plastic bag. Or 173 times if only 40% of those plastic bags are reused as bin liners (accounts for throwing away ones with holes so your trash doesn't leak out). Source
I imagine recycling the plastic bags like is common nowadays (Walmart has a giant bin you can toss them in) makes the carbon equation even more in favor of plastic.
Of course, this doesn't take into account the ecological concern of plastic bags ending up in the environment, but we're considering a hypothetical situation anyways. Like everything there are tradeoffs in all choices, whichever is most important to you determines what you do.
I mean, I feel like 131 times isn't actually that often. Assuming you use a cloth bag for grocery shopping and literally nothing else, and you go grocery shopping at least once a week, you meet that standard in <3 years. I don't think that's unreasonable.
I agree, not completely unreasonable and I wasn't really trying to imply that. I would question if most people are really using their reusable bags that often though. Someone who isn't very well informed probably would not.
Tetrapaks are fucking awful. They're not widely recycled, and even when they are its very poor.
Yea but.. isn't that made exclusively from trees/plants? It's renewable, and even if it's not recycled I don't think paper can damage the environment
Sure, it costs energy to cut plants and refine them. But wouldn't refining metals, like aluminium, require much more energy? Glass too
Question: How do you get paper?
Answer: massive deforestation.
The act of removing oil from the ground is actually far less ecologically damaging than getting paper. It's just much worse when you burn it.
I thought most paper and lumber these days came from tree farms
Nearly all of it is. Wood is less a resource than it is a crop.
Yeah, but oil takes millions of years to make and we use way more than can be made.
Trees on the other hand.. well we can grow as many of them as we want within 5-10-15 years. And no matter what you do with the paper, it's not gonna really damage anything, it doesn't even need to be recycled. Burn it, throw it in the ocean, whatever.
Realistically, paper is not the perfect material. Recycling glass, plastic, and metal all result in suitable materials post recycling.
For paper, once its been used, the strength goes WAY down. It may seem like the most eco-friendly but in reality it isnt very recyclable.
Look into how aluminum is made, it’s a fucking disaster for the environment. It’s cool cause it’s easy and profitable to recycle, like glass, but also sucks because it’s actually poison and seeps into our food and drinks etc. as it is a very highly reactive metal.
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But the lining is plastic, bringing us back full circle.
I was just wondering, doesn't glass have lead in it? Would that not enter into our system the more we drink from glass? I only heard this an am not really sure if it's true.
The only glass with an appreciable lead content is, fittingly, leaded glass. It's a mostly decorative crystal glass, and even then it's not common nowadays. I suggest you not raid your parent's or grandparent's china cabinet and drink out of any of the cut crystal glasses they received as a wedding gift however.
Oh good, ok I will make sure of that and thank you for the prompt reply.
A lot of places won't recycle glass. They won't take it here so it just ends up in the landfill. At least plastic I can throw in the recycling bin.
Glass is also an environmental hazard.
Source: lived in a poor neighborhood. There was broken glass everywhere.
Additionally, glass containers have breakage during shipping which causes huge issues.
One broken bottle can ruin a pallets worth of product since many stores would see the spill and reject the entire shipment.
They don't want to deal with sticky bottles that may have broken glass on them.
Worked at a liquor store for 3 years, and YES PLASTIC IS SO MUCH BETTER for moving stuff. It's far lighter to carry around, it doesn't break, you can drop it and about the worst that will happen is the cap might break (Unlikely, but shit happens), you never have to worry about cleaning up shards of glass that someone might step on, I've never seen product come off of a truck damaged like glass(Not too uncommon to see 1 beer in a 12 pk bottles to be broken before it gets to the store) etc. Aluminum is ok-ish but given that everything inside a can is under pressure, having a 2-4 foot area covered in sugary spray is frankly a giant PITA to clean up. Also, aluminum cans definitely seemed to break/explode much more frequently than plastic bottles. Plastic may be environmentally terrible, but for everything else it's just amazing.
Another reason why arizona is best
Glass and ceramic lasts "forever." I've dug up ceramic bits that's almost 3000 years old, and even pieced one jar back together. Ceramic was basically Tupperware "back in the day."
As far as aluminum goes, the amount of energy it takes to produce usable aluminum from raw product is unbelievable, that said if it’s recycled it only requires 3% of the initial energy input.
Drinks taste better out of a can, but I can reuse a plastic bottle for a while before it gets gross.
Hi, I work in a waste management facility. You are in fact correct about aluminum being the best of three options. Cans are in fact recyclable nearly infinitely. Glass is typically able to be recycled around 7 times until it can no longer be recycled again, it is then pulverized and mixed in with products like concrete and blacktop.
Doubt it. Aluminum requires a shit ton of electricity to produce. Like non negligible percentage of the world's energy use levels of electricity. Just to get aluminum from Bauxite. There's a reason why aluminum is the gold mine of recycling.
I've been told that if you are going to use a plastic water bottle, take the cap off, crush it as much as possible, and put the cap back on. At least it will take up much less space in a landfill. You see all those cases of bottles in the grocery store and they are going to take up that much space in a landfill unless someone crushes them after using them.
Really at the truckload stage volume is as important as weight, the shipping savings are relatively marginal between the two I’d think. In the end you’re paying for space on the truck.
Maybe they can like inflate them on site and buy them flat packed or something, or maybe the glass ones have some wierd limitation where you can’t fit as many as you’d hope on a pallet or can’t stack them.
Glass bottles are also much easier to break, this is another logistical issue with glass.
I am so fucking tired of people and companies the world over saying: 'but its expensive!'.
NO. SHIT.
OMG things cost money?! This shouldnt be a surprise. It isn't an excuse or a reason to not do something and everyone in the whole world could do me a huge favor and just stfu about improvements to our world being 'expensive'. It doesnt even mean anything either since depending on your personal economic situation you will have a different amount that you consider 'expensive' to other people.
Example: for me £200 is an expensive dinner, for another person that could be a cheap meal, for another person that would be astronomical.
Its all about perspective, so all companies around the world please, for fucks sake, stop spouting it as an excuse.
It's a legitimate concern when the packaging cost more than what's typically in it.
Well then they're just going to have to raise the prices or research different packaging, or maybe we go back to having less packaging overall. I'm sure those apples don't need to be wrapped in cling film for example.
I'm gonna go with none of the above.
Sure they won't WANT to do so, but that isn't the point. Groups of people throughout history have been persuaded to do very many things they didnt want to.
I'd argue they don't need to.
So you want companies to continue to pollute and destroy the oceans with plastics we don't need?
I don't care. And need is subjective.
Need is not subjective in the least, and plastic is not a need. If it were a need we wouldn't be here as a species because plastic has only been invented recently.
a need is something required for a safe, stable and healthy life (e.g. food, water, shelter) while a want is a desire, wish or aspiration.
But, obviously you're just an 'edgy' teen who 'doesn't care'
LMAO. Couldn't be further from the truth.
Mental age can often be very different from ones physical age. :)
I'm sure. And if you cannot see the need for clean, safe, inexpensive, and recyclable packaging in todays world might wanna reevaluate yours.
? Thats was my point.....either recyclable or don't use it at all.
It's good for the environment. You guys need to look at how you process your plastic garbage, not how much plastic is used. Norway may be ridiculed for our "pant", the fee you pay that you get back when you deliver bottles for recycling, but it really does make a massive difference.
wait... getting money back for bottles isn't something you can do most places?
I am in Canada. we get 5 cents back on plastic and 10 cents on glass. There are people who literally live off collecting cans and bottles and trading them in.
Not in the US. Only 9 states, Maine, Vermont, Connecticut, Massachusetts, New York, Hawaii, Iowa, Oregon, and Michigan have deposit on plastic bottles.
California does, at least they did 10 years ago. Not sure if it's changed
Californian here, can confirm: we recycle all the things. If we want we can get deposits back on cans, glass, and plastic, but we also have bins for them which helps subsidize the garbage companies (who get the deposits back instead).
Edit to add: Most Californians who were born and raised here are surprised to learn other states don't recycle everything - including cardboard and paper - and instead dump it all into a garbage can. Our garbage cans are the smallest bins for pickup xD
This isn’t a California thing , this is a West Coast thing for anyone wondering. For some reason the West Coast has no issues with recycling and composting. Just moved to Chicago where the mob basically owns trash companies - just don’t understand why it has to be so hard to recycle elsewhere
I think a lot of it has to do with access to it and general attitude towards it. I live in Iowa, and the town I live in has free recycling. Everyone can get a bin for their house and on pickup day, there's rarely a house that doesn't have it out. But I am sure a lot of other places don't have that access, and if they do, it may not be common for others to take advantage of it because they don't see other people doing it.
Back in the 90s the garbage company (re-named "Green Team") dropped off recycling kits at every house. We had three recycling bins for aluminum, cardboard, and glass, and a smaller main garbage can.
More recently they've changed to one large can for recyclable materials and a smaller one for garbage.
Someone else on this comment thread mentioned composting - maybe we'll get that soon, too. Restaurants compost but it's not available through consumer garbage companies yet.
Here we had to specifically call the trash company and ask them to bring us a recycle bin, and we have to pay $14/mo for it to get picked up twice a month, and we have the only recycle bin I've seen in the entire city. :/ Regular trash is every week and included in our HOA. Alaska here.
That's part culture but a lot of it comes down to government (dis)incentives. I live in the Netherlands and I have 4 bins outside, one for paper which is picked up for free, one for plastics which is also free, one for compost which has a small fee and one for leftover trash which has a significantly larger fee (€6.50 every time it's picked up iirc). So we're both incentivized to recycle by making it easy and disincentivized to just throw everything into the leftover trash because it costs money.
Austin added curbside compost pickup, which has really cut down on what we have to throw away. With that and recycling, our garbage now consists of:
- cat litter
- diapers (we use cloth during the day, but 1x disposable each night)
- Soft plastics (not recycled here)
- Mixed materials (metal embedded in wood shrink-wrapped in plastic, and similar)
We only put our garbage every few weeks now, or put it out with like one thing in it if it's smelly.
Can't wait until composting is more common here! Right now I've only seen it at restaurants and a few businesses (like at work).
helps subsidize the garbage companies
This may seem like a weird question, but doesn't the city / municipality / state collect the garbage? Why would they need a subsidy??
My CA city contracts out. My garbage bill is fairly low, about $35/month and that includes a $5 yard waste bin that I don't technically need (but my lawn care service loves it)
Edit to add: landfill land in my area is expensive, as I live in the Bay. So I'm guessing the CRV money they get keeps my bill pretty low.
So you pay like a subscription for garbage collection? Could you just decide not to pay? What would happen? Could you choose not to have like recycling bins or the waste bin or whatever?
I've lived in a few places in Europe and here garbage collections are sometimes contracted out to private companies, but you don't have to pay for it - that's what your local taxes are for. I think the idea is to encourage people to recycle because the collection is already paid for (you don't have a choice).
In switzerland it goes further because your recycling is free but you have to pay Per Bag for any other trash (and put it out in correctly sealed approved bags).
If you don't pay, they take their bins back and you have to drive to the dump or recycling center yourself and sort it, pay any landfill fees, etc.
In my city you pay for a small trash can, smaller than your recycling bin. Everyone with trash service gets the large recycling bin. Then you may also have a yard waste or food waste bin. You pay from $30-50 a month for that service; each trip to a dump/landfill might cost you $10 so in the long run, it's cheaper to just pay for garbage service, since no one wants weeks old rotting garbage around. Also, recycling centers that pay out the deposit can take a long time, like an hour of your time sometimes.
If we have more garbage than fits in our small cans, we can visit the library or a local supermarket, or city hall, and buy a sticker that goes on an approved size bag to pay for the overage, so not far from Switzerland. Our trash can holds about 2-3 bags depending on size. I bought bag stickers for the first time this week because I'm moving and want to declutter some ruined stuff.
We must have different ideas on what constitutes "fairly low". $35/month seems absolutely ridiculous to me! I pay $8.40/month for garbage pick up ( up to 4 cans/week, 1 bulk item per week, unlimited recyclables every other week) and $1/month for unlimited yard waste.
I live in the SF Bay Area. This is the cheapest bill I pay lol. Water costs more than gas/electricity some months, for example, but in Georgia I never paid over $30 for it. Resources get expensive here.
I'm moving to Texas next month. I can't wait to see how little normal things cost, like groceries. I might cry... with joy 😂
I live in the PNW and just got back from a week in Arizona. I went to the store while I was down there and paid just 14 cents for a handful of jalapenos. Mind blown.
That sounds like an error, lol! So cheap!
So, is in the bay a low-rent area, or do you all just spend a bunch of money on aquarium windows and rock the blue-green aesthetic?
I would definitely do your second option for cheap rent. Ahhh, that blue green glow. But alas, I am not in the actual bay waters. just weird local phrasing. "In the bay" or "in the (north/south/east) bay" are common phrases used here.
Lots of cities hire a large company like Waste Management to do the garbage collecting in the area.
Californian here, can confirm: we recycle all the things. If we want we can get deposits back on cans, glass, and plastic, but we also have bins for them which helps subsidize the garbage companies (who get the deposits back instead).
CA here also. In my neighborhood the garbage company never sees those bottles & cans. The homeless guys come out the night before garbage day and dig out all the recyclables they can cash in. They're quiet and don't make a mess, so we don't bother them.
Yea, in the neighborhoods we've lived in they come sneaking in during the night. I feel bad because of the subsidization and all, but it's the difference between paying a few more cents a month vs a hungry person getting food. I'll even run outside to give them more cans if I see them.
My county doesn’t even require you to do the actually recycling... throw everything in the same bin, and the garbage company goes through it. Makes sure everything gets recycled and creates jobs!
That's so much easier for people who struggle with "where do I put this plastic-lined paper butter wrapper?" xD
Wish it'd get rolled out everywhere!
Right? If I ever move I’ll have to learn how to recycle all over again!
I don't think we get charged a bottle deposit for plastic bottles. I certainly know we don't get charged a deposit for wine bottles, which seems like an industry special-interest group set that up.
I found this site that lists the current CRVs
(apparently hasn't updated in over a decade...?)
Huh. I only ever notice the CRV when I buy beer, not OJ or distilled water or whatever.
I swear we get charged CRV when we buy flats of water at Costco, but I don't have a receipt to double-check with right now.
The way that site outlines the CRV program, some of the money is added by distributors. Maybe some distributors don't charge consumers the fee?
Perhaps so. It may just be that I'm sensitive about the beer. I don't ever buy bottled water (unless I've managed to forget my reusable bottle at home, for some reason), so it's not something I notice.
I don't like buying bottled water either. We started doing it during the drought if the water came from outside of California. I should talk to my husband about switching back to filtered.
Edit to add: my children take water bottles to school because they installed water bottle stations all over the place there. They can hold a huge jug of water easily to fill it up! When I went to my college campus for a test, they also had the same refill stations. If these become more common it would make a huge impact.
Good luck getting back your deposit in CA.
Last time I tried, I had to stand in line for 2 hours next to the trash can. And the place is only open 8-4. Sunday closed.
They made it so hard compare to CT, where I could just give them to the groceries stores and get my money back.
I just put my box of cans/bottles out near my apartment garbage and someone else always takes them soon.
Definitely not worth it to me to schedule my life around trying to get to a deposit center to get $2 back, but if other people want to, more power to them.
It hasn't changed.
thanks for your relevant insight
I'm in Michigan, where we get 10 cents back as opposed to most other states that only do 5 cent deposits. All of the lazy alcoholics in my life are gold mines for me.
i need to collect bottles and bring them to michigan......if only there was a way
You overload the gross and blow all your margins on gasoline, it doesn't work Newman.
i hope this was a Seinfeld reference.
Around here the homeless do it. Recycling bins are put out on Wednesdays for pick up by the city, and despite being able to get a deposit back most people still throw their cans and bottles in the bin.
Wednesday morning before the trucks are out, all the homeless people clean out the bins of anything with a deposit.
I live in Michigan. Bottle deposit is a giant pain in the ass and it's limited to whatever products the laws are written to benefit. For example, in Michigan, only beer and pop have deposit. The only ones who like bottle deposit are stores that sell those products b/c they encourage repeat customers.
A far more cost-effective way to encourage recycling is to subsidize curbside recycling bins.
And for Iowa that only counts for Pop/Soda, energy drinks, and beer/wine/spirits. You pay a 5 cent tax when buying the bottle then get 5 cents back if you return it.
I really didn't know. Not that I have really looked into it. I guess I just assumed it was the normal system every where. So do those places also not pay a bottle deposit either?
Yeah, in most states you don't pay a bottle deposit, and you don't get one back. I grew up near-ish to the OH (non-deposit state)/MI (deposit state) border, and some people would try to collect bottles and cans from OH and bring them to MI for the deposit, though I think that's illegal.
I'm sad ohio doesn't do this... I'd be rich...
Unless they changed something, California does too.
And California too
Michigan only charges deposit on carbonated beverages. You won't find a deposit on juice or tea.
Not only that, many municipalities don't even have access to recycling beyond metals
PA did when I was a kid in like, the mid-eighties. They got rid of it, though. It sucked. Man, that was how I made my candy money!
It's coming to the UK soon! I grew up in MI and am genuinely excited for this.
Why? Does the UK not have curbside pickup of recyclables? That's so much better than a deposit.
Most people do, I think, but we don't get it at my house.
Unfortunately Massachusetts voted down a referendum that would've expanded it to water bottles as well.
I always take my bottles back because there's no way I'm letting go of that 5 cents.
WA used too but not anymore. :(
I remember going once with like 20 bags of cans. Got some money back that day.
They need to be updated, it should be 15-25 cents per item with water and everything included.
Or get rid of them and do curbside pickup of recycling.
It's not just houses. You need to give people a reason not to toss things in the trash when they're out.
We have a form of money back on cans, plastic and glass bottles here in California as well.
And Michigan has the best return rate on plastic, aluminum, and glass bottles of any state by far.
Wow what! So do other States not have crazy can ladies? Damn
I live in Michigan and am always confused and surprised when I go to other states (like Florida) that have a completely different view on recycling, because it just seems so common sense to me.
For the amount of people surviving in the cities of San Francisco and San Jose off of collecting plastic bottle. I gotta say California is probably on that list too.
.
I'm in California. I had no idea that there are places when you don't get paid for recycling. That's nuts.
Downvoted because how did you miss California? :p
This isn't even common all across Canada. I'm in Ontario for school and no one does that. Big difference from BC where everyone I knew would return bottles.
Im in NB but just thought it was a country wide thing
I used to think so too but surprisingly it isn't.
in Manitoba we get nothing
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Man, in Texas in the mid 2000s I had almost a whole refrigerator box full of cans I'd crushed and saved. Took forever to fill it up. I think I got like, a couple dollars from the scrap metal place. Less than 10 for sure. =/ Guess who doesn't take the time to crush and save their cans anymore?
Where do you go to sell plastic bottles in Canada? I've only ever heard of returning glass bottles for 10-20 cents each at the Beer Store.
Where I've lived, Calgary and Vancouver, we take them to return-it depots around the area. It's a bit different place to place, but they take lots of stuff. In Calgary we even get money back on our milk jugs.
Lucky you guys. I don't think we have anything like that in Toronto
The flipside to his comment is that in those locations you also pay a deposit on everything you buy, and lose it if your don't recycle
Ya bottle deposit gets ridiculous. Especially when buying flats of pop.
When I moved out west from NY state I was surprised and disappointed that other states don't do this.
In Norway you get much more back. And it is extremely easy and convenient. Every grocery store has a bottle return machine that gives you the money back for your bottles. This has created a culture where everyone returns their bottles while they shop for groceries.
To be clear, though, you're not getting free money. You pay a deposit when you buy the bottle and get that deposit back when you return the bottle (although collecting other people's recyclables would essentially be free money).
Honestly, I feel a little ripped off because my city's home recycling bins are the normal way to turn in these bottles so you're not getting the deposit back. I could turn these bottles in myself, but that would require storing a large amount in my home somewhere and then taking them all out at once to get the refund. Feels like too much work compared to the ease of single stream recycling, especially given how low the refund really is vs the time and effort to turn the bottles/cans in. I guess theoretically the city could get the money and pass it on to me via lower property taxes? And... then just hope that makes any impact on us renters.
Although as it stands, the deposits do mean that when you recycle via most regular recycling bins, you paid the deposit but you don't get it back. Kinda doesn't give you an incentive to dispose properly if you're not turning it in directly. You could throw it in the trash and you'd see the same impact.
And it's 10 cents per bottle (in Canada) if it is 1 liter or larger.
Depends on the province. Alberta is 25 cents for bottles 1L and up.
Maybe we should be advertising this to increase tourism.
Closest thing to this I know of is that at my university in Texas if you turn in 3 plastic bottles for recycling they'll give you a bottle of water. It's kinda neat, but I'm not sure if anyone bothers with it since it's such a small reward.
Not all of Canada though. It's a provincial regulation. I'd love to see Ontario put this in place.
Recently proposed for the UK. The Scottish drink-maker Barr's used to give 20p deposits on their glass bottles of juice, most notably Irn-Bru.
I'm in Finland now, and cans, & bottles have deposits on them. The value ranges from 0.05-0.20 as far as I've seen. As you say people collect them from bins, parks, and similar places to redeem the cash and make a living from it.
Sorry to break it to you, but it's not even something you can do everywhere in Canada. In Ontario, only the govt regulated Beer Stores will return alcohol bottles. Anything that wasn't packaged to contain alcohol goes back through municipal Blue Box programs. You get a plastic blue box for your house/apt and load it up with everything. Cardboard, plastic, glass, aluminium all get taken by the city and recycled wherever they do their recycling. And I'm no homeowner but I believe if you own a home you actually help pay for this program through property tax to boot.
The problem is that people can be lazy and throw it in the trash instead of recycling, because there is no incentive. Or they aren't aware of what the Beer Store will take back, because I just found out they take beer cans and plastic alcohol bottles last week.
Also worth noting is that we don't pay deposits on buying the item in the first place, except alcohol. Buying a bottle of wine at the LCBO comes with a 25¢ deposit that you get back when you recycle at the Beer Store. Buying a case of water or jug of milk carries no deposit like it does in Alberta.
Not really in the UK, you either recycle for free using can/bottle banks (usually at supermarkets) or sell them in bulk to dealers that deal in recyclables but it’s not for much.
10 full to bursting bags of crushed aluminium cans will net you about £20. It’s only really worth the effort if you’re running a pub/club and have the volume to make it worthwhile.
In Scotland a company used to offer 20p back on glass bottles, they’ve stopped doing it recently because it wasn’t cost effective for them any more.
I always thought that was just a Quebec thing
Whenever I go to the US I'm shocked at how little recycling I see. Back home we have recycling and compost even in food courts now, and I can't imagine not using a recycling bin, I recycle about twice as much as I throw away.
dude in missouri one of our milk companies gives us like $2 back when we take the bottle to the store to be re-used
We don't have it in the UK - but they're introducing it in England soon (not across the whole UK, because waste is a devolved issue). Hopefully the rest of the UK follows suit.
In Finland small bottles have a 20 cent deposit and big bottles have a 40 cent deposit. I have seen much smaller deposits in other countries, like 1 cent low.
In Germany, you get back a quarter for each can. It's a pretty sweet deal and gets a lot more bottles recycled.
Here in Alberta we have deposit fess on many of our bottles and milk cartons. Not sure what our return rates but I think they are pretty good. You could say there is even something of a cottage industry around youth tams and clubs doing bottle drives out in the 'burbs for fund-raising.
On the milk carton? I'm on the other side of Canada and I never heard of that.
Oh, right. You heathens use bags for your milk.
You shut your whore mouth! Milk bags are legit
But they're plastic...more waste. Even jugs contribute to the problem.
Paper cartons are the way to go.
How dare you! We use both because we have choices, likeany advanced civilization. We just put our cartons in recycling bins without being paid to do so.
seriously, what a terrible goddam container for a liquid.
Bags use less plastic than the 4-litre jug though.
This sounds downright atrocious. How do you even store a bag of milk?! They used to do this for school lunches in grade school, but they stopped because kids would twist them in the middle and chuck em at other kids.
Grew up in BC and don't think this was a thing there, then started getting $0.10 for milk jugs in Alberta and have been enjoying it a lot.
Think the rule in Alberta is if you would drink the contents of the container, it can get you money back. So juice boxes, pop cans, beer bottles, wine bottles, milk jugs, even the tetrapak things for Almond Milk. But, not for boxed chicken stock (which seems ludicrous as it's the same container my apple juice comes in, but... oh well, win some lose some.)
25 cents for a 4 later milk jug and 10 cents for everything else. Plus all juice boxes are 5 cents including kids juice boxes. I live half a block from a school and I walk down there most days and collect $1 worth of juice boxes almost every time,
We have can and bottle return storefronts that you can take your bottles and cans to and either get the money or donate to a charity.
They changed the prices somewhat recently (last couple years I think) so now it's 5c for anything under 1L and 10c for anything over.
Not in Alberta. $0.10 for anything under 1L, $0.25 for above
Same in BC, except for milk cartons. They aren't recyclable, so there's no deposit and no return for bringing them in. Same for a few different types of drinks you would think would be recyclable (e.g.: most Monster cans are, but the coffee ones are not).
Last I heard we had a return rate of over 90%
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REFUSE, then reduce, reuse and recycle.
Refuse bags/straws/packaging etc. that you don't need, and then reduce the amount that you do need.
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The difference is subtle. I don't need millions of free samples in plastic pots when I'm walking around a store, or a plastic straw in my drink, so I refuse them. I do need to buy food, so I reduce the packaging it comes in by cooking from scratch and buying loose veg from a market instead of wrapped veg from the supermarket.
I don't need junk mail or free newspapers through my door, so I refuse them. I do need to get online orders delivered sometimes, but I reduce the number by doing a big order for lots of things instead of small orders for single items.
Personally I find the distinction useful, but do whatever works for you!
How do you refuse junk mail?
It can be as simple as putting a sticker on your mailbox to cut down about half of it. Depending on where you live, your postal service might have opt-out forms you could complete.
There are sometimes different rules about unaddressed and addressed junk mail, but it's very easy to reduce the unaddressed stuff.
Interesting, thanks!
If you’re getting bombarded with a lot of unaddressed mail the one thing that really works is signing up for DMA mail preference services. It costs $1. Best $1 I’ve spent last year. Also, if you continue getting local coupon books or whatever leave a note on mailbox saying no junk mail. Violators will be reported to the DMA. It scares them straight.
If you’re getting a lot of credit card offers, etc that you don’t want just opt out with the credit bureaus. There’s instructions online and it’s pretty painless.
Catalogs tho, omg I’ve called a million times to get my name off the mailing list and they confirm I’m off, but I still get them. From environmental organizations too. Ugh. Also we get like 5 yellowpages type books a year. It breaks my heart.
I went to Walgreen's a few months ago and got in an argument with the cashier because I refused a plastic bag for my three small items. She said it was store policy that I take one. I asked her why that was necessary since I had the receipt. She replied that she didn't know why, it was just the rules. So I begrudgingly walked out with a plastic bag. The next time I went to the same location I told the cashier (who was not the one I had before) that I did not need a bag and there was no problem. I told her about the previous cashier who forced me to use a bag and she was like, "yeah, she's full of bs." Looking back I should have probably called the manager.
Nah just don’t take the bag. Take your shit and walk out. Leave the bag. What can she do?
Except no, because what we use plastics for is making food last longer, meaning less food waste. Food production is a lot worse for the environment than that of modern packaging. I see where you're coming from, but the plastic is actually reducing a different problem.
Depends on the context, obviously. If something is frozen, the plastic isn't making it last longer (aside from a bag preventing freezer burn for some things), but frozen food packaging still has tons of plastic in it. Thankfully this is slowly changing, with lots more cardboard trays and things like that.
Cardboard isn't more environmentally friendly, it just breaks down faster. The problem is how you treat the plastics after use.
Cardboard isn't more environmentally friendly, it just breaks down faster.
So... it's more environmentally friendly. Cardboard from tree farms is 1000x more sustainable than plastic made from petroleum.
Tell me how to counter the increased wear on nature from production, then.
Typical modern attitude: I want to throw something away irresponsibly without having to care. The production is the major issue, because we SHOULD responsibly handle waste.
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It wasn't. Read it again.
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Read the whole thread.
I have curbside pickup of recycling, as does nearly everyone in my state except maybe the rural areas. They proposed a deposit a few years ago but with no way of returning the deposit to people who recycle it would amount to nothing more than another tax.
In Norway we hand back the bottles in machines you can find in every convenience store.
Good on Norway, an energy rich country (I mean that in a good way) looking forward and around to make the environment better rather than just pissing the profits up the wall for fat-cats to cream off and later generations to deal with. Also highlighting individual responsibility with a pay now, get your return later attitude. I've seen good stuff from there on this and hope the UK genuinely adopts this model. If only to change a generational concept of "Somebody else's problem"
You would have to have an extra set of recycling bins and put them in a separate container. Then load your bin into the back of your truck when it's full and take it to wherever to get your deposit back.
Or we could continue to have no deposit and I can throw my bottles in the recycling bin that gets picked at my curb once a week. Yeah, that sounds a whole lot more convenient.
Yeah. My answer was a bit tongue in cheek, just that that's what would be required to do it.
I'm with you. We just chuck the plastic into the recycling bin. I prefer plastic containers over glass because they don't accept glass in our curbside recycling pickup. Plastic can at least get recycled. Glass ends up in our landfill.
They have machines at Costco or shop rite. You can take your bottles there and get your money back.
If you do curbside recycling you do it for the environment not for the deposit.
Why is Norway ridiculed? We stayed with a hotel owner when I was like 12 and me and my sisters made some spending money just searching the grounds for bottles. It was freaking awesome.
Because people who don't have that deposit think it sounds dumb.
That's plain sad. As a kid it was spending money. As an adult I see it as a way to stop pollution and even a way to let homeless people make some money. What is it, .10 kroner per bottle?
No, it's 1 for anything smaller than 0,7 Litre bottles and 2,50 for bigger ones. It's going to be increased soon though.
Oh cool!
It's been a while and I was too lazy to search for currency, forgive my ignorance / boneidleness.
Kind of bullshit though seeing how the biggest distributor of beer in Norway have moved away from bottles with a deposit. They have to pay a fee for using single-use bottles and the consumer has to pay for it. Result is I refuse to buy beer from Ringnes.
They're moved over to supposedly more environmentally friendly bottles, they say. Idk.
Noooo, friend, that is the opposite of what society needs to look at. Recycling is not as good reducing use. The energy costs of recycling, the use of oil for production in the first place, and the negative effects of it on biology and aquatic systems are very immediate concerns. Plastic is bad, and recycling plastic is better than throwing it out, but not using it period is way, way, way better (and ultimately necessary).
Not using it is not an option, as that'll increase waste. Removing plastic isn't the best solution at all.
You have programs like that here too, just not everywhere and the return points are not always as convenient. The money back is a little better in Norway too.
Source: Lived in both.
I was so disappointed when they did that! I love my Snapple glass bottles and seeing it in plastic hurt me inside.
right??? Snapple tastes infinitely better when in a glass bottle. I have no empirical data to back this up, but it's the truth.
I even find that to be true with water. The container stays colder, which helps.
I've started to noticed Voss more and more coming in plastic instead of glass as well
I just stopped buying Snapple when they switched to plastic bottles.
Granted, I don't really buy individual-sized drinks anymore, but I won't buy Snapple at this point.
It made me mad too
I was disappointed too but given how I usually drink one or two bottles a day, it was wasteful. I switched to the big bottles to keep in the fridge at work an use a mug. I should have done that a long time ago, it's also much less expensive.
Nothing worse than a "cold" plastic bottle... Never really gets cold actually, and the feel of an ice cold snapple bottle is nostalgic.
I went to buy a Snapple the other day and it had printed on it "Now in Plastic Bottles" went for a Nantucket Nectar's instead. Now in plastic is not a selling point for me.
Probably cheaper to ship than glass.
The quality of the stuff inside the bottles it's way lower these days too.
One of the soda brands bought Snapple years ago and ruined it.
I've seen the plastic ones for sale a lot in environments that ban glass ones for safety reasons.
one up that by having a nalgene bottle and drinking just water. healthier option all around.
If i could give you gold I would, my fellow nalgene person.
We need more reusable containers like this in our lives but for other things. Larger initial investment to make, but strong, easy to clean, and reusable for a long ass time.
Its possible for shampoo, dish soap, and laundry detergent. Many brands sell 'refills'
I'd like to see more bulk shops where you can bring your own containers to fill up.
I’m sure there are countries/cities where this could be turned into a legit business. Dispense a couple of these and sell them by their volume. Small area needed so the rent would be low.
Either this or building dispensers to sell them to supermarkets.
It's a larger investment initally, but if you're drinking what you should be in water it pays for itself in less than a week vs disposable bottles.
I love my Klean Kanteen! My dad accidentally dropped his and it bounced about 40 feet down a rocky hill. No dents, just scratches.
I have a Pur water filter and simply refill the water bottle I keep in the house and one I keep in the car.
Second this. Nalgene is superior to every other water bottle and doesn't leak or break if you're clumsy. I'm super picky about water bottles but the nalgene one I'll use until I die or they quit making it
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Get a CO2 infusion machine. They are like 100 dollars.
Sodastream.
Or, I've seen instructions online for DIY soda makers. They aren't as pretty as the Sodastream, but way cheaper.
I'd like to start by making it fashionably OK for a man to carry a satchel bag. There are a bunch of things I wish I could carry with me at all times that won't fit in my pockets, but there's too much stigma about me carrying some sort of man-purse.
I'm pretty sure messenger bags for men have been fine for years now. If that's not for you, you also have the briefcase and backpack options.
Backpacks also have the advantage of being way better for your back and shoulders. Especially with a waist belt. I have to carry my laptop back and forth from work every day and when I switched from messenger bag to backpack I really noticed it in how my back and shoulders feel.
Edit: yes, it should be a good backpack and you should wear it properly (both shoulder straps and used the hip/waist belt). I thought that went without saying.
Man purse? Fine.
Strapping the waist band on a non-backpacking backpack? Might as well break out the fanny pack, nerd.
Only if you wear them properly. I can't count how many times people have complained about their shoulders/back when they sling their bloody backpacks over one shoulder.
but everybody is one-strappin it
And a good backpack.
I went traveling with a big backpack and realized how much good support actually helped. People complained about the straps on the model I was using - started feeling the pain an hour in, even though I was using the waist and chest straps to help distribute the weight.
I bought an Osprey Daylite bag for work/trips and it's an immense help.
The Talon is overkill sometimes. Other times, when I'm carrying multiple water bottles and heavy objects or in hot weather, the venting and support is amazing.
I haven’t carried a messenger bag ever, but I carry a backpack most places and there’s not much I can’t put in there.
I mean, Indiana Jones wears one.
Just start wearing one? You'd be surprised how much nobody cares.
as someone who frequently wears one for shopping or going out, i can confirm. no one gives a shit.
I'm a cashier and I see men with messenger bags and other satchels all the time. I've never thought "what a pussy" or that they were weird. If anything, I thought it was smart as hell. I carry a messenger bag myself.
I have a nice bag from a few years ago. Water resistant and just big enough for a textbook/laptop with pockets for wallet/money/tools.
It's way smarter than packing everything into pockets, but this bag is more for light travel than anything, since I can't put it on my back.
For carrying more things I was looking at a messenger bag with a cross strap but my Osprey Talon doesn't need replacing. And I'll miss hip straps.
I live in the city, EVERYONE has some sort of bag or pack with them. From those things drawstring bags you get as merch from some convention to a full sized day pack. I didn't think there was still a stigma anymore.
Ya this definitely seems like a "you" problem more than a "society" problem.
I mean, it is a very minor "society" problem that can easily be overcome by not giving a shit.
You just rephrased my comment lol
A European Carry All
If I saw a guy with a bag, if anything I would think to myself, “hey, he has a bag. I’ll bet he has things in there.”
Go ahead and carry it. That's what I do. I have several "murses" and nobody cares.
This applies to everything. Order of things people care about when they look at you or notice you in public:
1.)Attractiveness. Brings them in closer or triggers "avoid mode"
2.)Hygiene. Do you smell bad?
3.)Do you or will you ever impact me?
4.)Your man purse.
I have a backpack that I carry around. I keep everything in there. My water, my rain jacket, beanie, cellphone, wallet, pens, first aid kit, gun and holster, battery charger thingie, headphones, etc.
I have only once been asked "What's with the backpack" in about a year. And the asker was a very short, older, aggressively hyper-masculine truck salesman who tried to sell me a truck by claiming the competition's offering of more customization options was "for girls". So I told him it was my purse.
gun and holster,
Seems like that would be difficult to get to for you, but relatively easy for someone else. Any reason you don't carry on your person instead?
I usually carry on my person. When I can't, I have an easy to access spot in my bag.
I wear one. I find it indispensable. When someone inevitable says “nice man-purse” or worse “nice murse “...I turn and deadpan...”it’s is a purse. It has a Tide Stick in it...so it’s just a purse.”
Ooh, what flavor tide stick?
Esophageal Delight of course!
Yeah, when the fuck did wanting to carry your stuff around (but not in a briefcase) get gendered?
So many things are unnecessarily gendered, it's ridiculous.
Man, check out Timbuk2 messenger bags. Anyone can wear those.
I second the Timbuk2 bags. I literally lived out of one of those bags for a month in Columbia after my bags were lost/stolen. I'm taking that same bag to the Starbucks by my house right now to write. My Columbian misadventure was almost 4 years ago and the bag is still going strong.
I love mine! I've used it daily for 3 years now, including a year of grad school, where I was always carrying my 17" laptop, textbooks, binders, etc. It's still in perfect condition!
I can't recall a time (in my adult life) that I saw a man carrying a "satchel bag" or "man purse" and thought, "OMG what a dork!"
I've just either not blinked, or thought 'hey, that's smart'
I can recall one time. It was in China and the dude was covered head to toe in Louis Vuitton, including this GIANT man purse, more like a duffel bag, and I thought to myself "Holy shit what a douche."
Well, in that case...
I carry a messenger bag pretty much everywhere. I have been commented on exactly once, by a student, where I mentioned a purse and he pointed at my bag. Which I thought was funny, because he's a 13 year old so this stuff is Important.
I just went on with what I was doing, the kid will get it some day, and if he doesn't that's a him problem.
and what about a backpack? laptop backpacks look classy
They're easy to pull off if you're in a commuter city or college town I know.
If you're not sure, just buy a motorcycle helmet to carry with the backpack. Now it looks like function over fashion!
I'd like to start by making it fashionably OK for a man to carry a satchel bag.
Its called a briefcase and it has been more than acceptable for like, forever.
I used one heavily all last summer and never got a second look and went on plenty of dates. Even the time the woman was using the same bag I had as a purse, we just laughed about it and kept seeing each other.
Adults really don't care as long as you aren't carrying around a clutch or something from Louis Vitton.
My guy carries his Chrome messenger bag everywhere. Never seen him get looks or side eye. Best $120 I ever spent. It's lasted about three years so far.
Go for it!!
I've been wearing one for about 15 years and never had a problem with it. A good leather satchel is fucking class.
Yeah... Nobody cares except maybe children or insecure teenagers. Wore one for years and I'm in my mid twenties. Only changed recently to a laptop backpack for the new job because more space..
Stigma? Really? Where are you?
they have things called day packs(basically mini sling bags) can fit bottle of water, charging accessories, and tablet sized items.
I commute to work by train. Here in the city where so many people bike/subway/train to work (so no car storage), satchel bags are ubiquitous. I'd say more men carry them than not, at least those with white collar jobs.
I actually do carry a bag for work.
Dude. It's been okay for a man to carry a bag for a long time. Either a sporty messenger, a backpack, a leather or canvas satchel. There are lots of options. If somebody calls it your 'man purse' own it! Be like, "Hell yeah I've got a man purse! I've got all kinds of useful crap in here! You don't even know what you're missing out on!"
But I bet nobody is even going to bat an eye.
I got a lot of shit for carrying one for years while working in Nevada. This was between 2003 and 2011. But fuck 'em. Anyone who thinks less of me simply because I carry a 'man-purse' isn't someone whose approval is important to me anyways.
I've been carrying one for a few years now, and will never go back. U/Kaiserhawk is right, nobody says anything and nobody cares.
I call mine my biker-man-purse. If you get the type the bikers use, the hit to your masculinity is offset by the hyper-masculinity of biker culture.
Here is what you do: find a satchel or other type of bag you feel fits your style and life. Buy it. Use it. If anyone asks about it, tell them that if Gandalf shows up like IT'S QUEST TIME BITCHES, you want to be ready. If they don't acknowledge that supremely reasonable argument, they obviously aren't someone whose opinion matters.
You won’t feel weird about it if it’s a sling style bag. Not super popular in America, but very common for men outside the states.
It's a purse! Kaaay?? And you stole from wrong guy!
I carry a man purse. Just start doing it!
No body cares. So man bag it up. It's funny how much stuff we don't do because we worry about how it might effect how others view us. When no one gives a shit.
I am trans and no one gives a shit that I am. If they tease you about something it's because they care. Give them a hug.
Backpack, my dude.
I've been carrying a Timbuk2 small messenger bag for almost 10 years. You're good to go.
https://www.timbuk2.com/messenger-bags
Fanny pack life!
90% of the time I leave the house I'm carrying a tote – no one really cares. And the few people (<0.1% of people in my experience) who do make comments you just shrug off and they stop caring too.
So, I was anti-satchel until I had a kid and had to start carrying a diaper bag around. Then I got so used to being able to take my stuff with me with out having to fill every pocket I own that I just bought a nice bag for the days that I need it. I don't use it every day, but I like having the option to have a place to put my water bottle, kindle, a snack, etc. and still have my hands/pockets free.
There's nothing girly about a messenger bag. If that's a concern, just wear one of those. It's essentially the same thing, anyway.
I carry a book bag. Keeps all kinds of shit handy
Dude, no one gives a shit.
I wear a slick fanny pack all the time (it has tacos on it) and get compliments rather than laughed at. The convenience is great and it is actually huge inside.
Rock the man-purse dude. The man-purse is awesome.
My fiancé is a big burly Army vet and he carries a cross body bag that he likes to stuff full of beer. The only person who has ever made fun of him is me and that was strictly out of love. I actually love that he carries it because I don’t have to carry his stuff in my purse. You can definitely carry a man purse.
My husband actually carries a "man bag." It's a Maxpedition Fatboy Versipack that is actually designed to be used for concealed carry weapons. Now, he does not and would not own a gun at all, he just likes the pockets and the "military" style of the bag. He got it off woot.com, and it works for him being left-handed. He carries his camera, money, tissues, etc. in there. Virtually no one gives a shit that he carries it, except the guys who come up to him to compliment him on it.
a Maxpedition Fatboy Versipack that is actually designed to be used for concealed carry weapons
bad ass
he does not and would not own a gun at all
wuss
I'm a hardcore conservative, gun owning guy. I wear a messenger bag everyday. Nothing weird about it.
In fact, buy yourself a Man Pack and stick your gun inside. Just don't forget it!
Sometimes glass can be difficult as well, it’s very expensive to recycle in some communities due to its weight and costly transportation to recycling plants. But still better than plastic
Snapple seams to be switching their glass bottles over to plastic. I've bought a couple that have the words "new plastic bottle" proudly displayed on it and think to myself... That's probably not something you want to advertise...
No, sorry, but glass sucks. It breaks, it is heavy, it is a pain to pick up, it cuts up my dog's paws, and it is slippery too, so more likely to break. We could just recycle the plastic. That's really easy.
Recycling of plastic is better than putting it into a landfill (or littering), but it is a seriously flawed process. Unlike recycling of glass and metal (which you can kinda just melt down and reuse), recycling of plastic usually results in a degradation of the quality of the product (downcycling instead of true recycling). So while you can make a new glass bottle or metal can out of a recycled glass bottle or metal can, usually recycled plastic is made into something of essentially lower-quality plastic. Plastic bottles are mainly being made de novo out of petroleum products, not recycled plastic bottles.
The best thing is to use a reusable bottle, almost regardless of what it is made of.
Gonna try this! The worst will be going grocery shopping, but will get one of those reusable grocery bags. This is a great idea!
Also since they hold more, you have less chance of dishonouring your family and having to commit sudoku because it took you more than one trip to bring them in.
They organize better in the trunk of your car too, at least in my experience.
In my city (Indore, India) plastic bags and trays are mostly illegal (Illegal for shopping/eateries e.t.c) and the change was pretty smooth. There are paper bags now that are just as cheap and easily decomposeable. Eateries usually prefer to use a 'dona' which is made of either paper or leaves.
In Argentina there are no plastic bags, you need to buy your own bag on the store. It surprises me that not a lot of places do this...
Yes. Another is - if you like carbonated water, get a damn Soda Stream, then bottle your own fizzy water. If you like it without fizz, you can also get a service that delivers, or at least get it in glass bottles.
There is so much about throw-away plastic that is BS - like the little ink stripe on your toothbrush that tells you to get rid of it once the stripe is gone. It's BS to get you to buy more toothbrushes. The ink washes off from being wet, it has nothing to do with the usefulness of the brush, itself. You can use a toothbrush for MONTHS after that mark wears off...unless you're brushing too hard.
Other examples - Keurig coffee pods. For the sake of all that is holy - is it really that hard for people to measure out their own coffee? Aside from the waste - it's WAAAAY too expensive for just a little convenience. Wake up, people!!
If you somehow end up with a plastic disposable water bottle, refill it as many times as you can.
Single-use plastic is not meant to be used numerous times, unfortunately. The more you re-use it, the more it begins to degrade and leach into the water. It is certainly good to do, but I would limit it to 2-3x refill.
Citation? I would be happy to amend my post!
https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/1003220/ Not plastic bottle specifically but plastic food films: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2150379
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12523782?access_num=12523782&link_type=MED&dopt=Abstract
Also bacteria is an issue with reuse: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12353459
I keep a reusable shopping bag and a collapsible water bottle in my purse at all times. Theyre very handy and don't take up much space
I only use plastic reusable bags. The typical ones are banned in Austin.
How am I supposed to shower? You want me to bathe in tap water? Nasty! This is why I need to go to Costco every week and buy tons of bottled water. /s
I work in a grocery store and ask constantly if people really want a bag for their two items they can easily carry. I hate how people use so many useless plastic bags just because they're lazy
I'm the opposite lol... If I forget a reusable bag and am buying a few things, I just tell the cashier I can carry it.
And then they look down at my 5-10 items and ask, are you sure about that?
I actually just wrote a script for a podcast regarding plastic and glass bottles.
Glass bottles are utter shit for the environment, they have just about all the same issues as a plastic bottle, less recyclable, also heavier which means more gas is wasted.
Go aluminum
Pretty sure the plastic bags we use here in Sweden (at least the ones you carry your groceries in) are bio-degradable and actually made from plants rather than oil. But I'm not sure if all of them are. Also maybe that's still good to avoid? I dunno, just saying.
We are also pretty good at returning plastic bottles and recycling them.
Thing about glass is it can break. You try to carry around a glass bottle. Its awkward enough without water.
Nalgene bottles for the win! I’ve had mine for 15 years
8 years of construction and many international trios for mine. Shes not pretty but it still works perfect.
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Why not just use a metal water bottle? Or a reusable plastic like Nalgene?
Those are the easy ones. Next is garbage bags. The problem is that aside from the environmental impact, plastic is a really fucking good material for garbage bags. Cheap, holds thousands of times its own weight, completely non-porous, and can be packed so densely for shipping that its density is nearly that of the raw plastic from which it's made.
Getting away from plastic for garbage bags frankly seems way more difficult than created plastics that biodegrade.
Easy on a personal level, compared to industry though the average consumer is barely a dent.
I'm all for it, but what will I pick my dogs poop up with?!?
Single use plastic. I am trying to use plastic containers for lunch but reusable ones.
I generally do pick glass drinks/bottles but I wish they were cheaper!!!
The hardest is getting take out. I wish you could provide your own reusable containers for take out or delivery. But the logistics would just be impractical.
You can just bring your own Tupperware and ask. A bunch of places will do it.
You could even just reuse them. For example, I always bring my own plastic bags to the groceries, and use them as trash liners for my office/bathroom. The less you use, the better.
I don't buy cold drinks from places for this reason. People tell me it's pointless but I don't care. It's about integrity. If Starbucks were to raise the discount on bringing your own cup/container I'm sure it would cut down on all the plastic waste.
But how do you throw away cat litter?
Honest question for everyone, what do you use for trash in small room (bathroom, bedroom, etc.) instead if small bags from the store? I'd live to get all plastic bags out of my house...
Just put it in the bin directly and dump it in the big trash can when taking out the trash, washing the bin every now and then.
I'm not putting food waste in my bedroom bin anyway so I don't need a bag.
I'm not a professional in anything, but I've noticed things about certain types of garbage: Those that I would classify as "litter", and those I would classify as "pollutants". Glass and safe metal (Iron, aluminum) does nothing if it winds up in the environment. It won't leech any toxins, and as long as it's not a chemical bottle, it's nothing more than an aesthetic nuisance. Metal will corrode away, glass, being extremely hardy, won't, but it won't be harmful. Plastic, on the other hand, is a pollutant. It can leech chemicals into the surrounding environment. The biggest argument I've heard against this is obviously production costs and shipping costs, but also, broken glass can be very dangerous if people leave it on the beach or wherever. It's a discussion we should have, though.
Glass is actually one of the least recycled materials. So if you use glass, recycle it!
Isn't glass worse to recycle though than just making new glass? From an energy standpoint, I mean.
Don’t forget about the straws!
Or re-use the bottles. Rinse them out and use them as change jars, water bottles, watering cans, etc.
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There are just so many products that come in plastic that isn't reusable. Especially with food, there's just no alternatives to most of that stuff but it comes in plastic that isn't useful for anything else and will take thousands of years to break down.
I was in San Diego recently and went to a Walmart. Was surprised to see that they charge $.10 for reusable plastic bags instead of the shitty thin ones they have in Illinois. I kept them and have been using one for my work lunch bag and it’s held up really well.
As a dog owner, I'm bothered by how many plastic bags I put in the garbage because I have to clean up my dog's poop on walks and at the park. I unfortunately haven't thought of a sanitary method that eliminates this plastic use :(
Fuckin pissed snapple went to plastic
At work I always ask people if they want to put their purchases in their other bag from another store if they are only buying one thing. Most people do it but you get some who want a separate bag for 1 thing lol.
Some grocery stores and super markets will give you a discount for bringing your own bags
I was going through multiple water bottles a day. I’d refill them but between the gym and other stuff I’d easily use 1-2 per day even if I refilled each one 2-3 times each day. Spent $50 and got a really nice water bottle. I’ve saved a ton of money long term and it feels good not having as much waste.
Many US cities (including mine) aren't currently recycling glass because it's too expensive. They'll take glass, but it goes to the landfill. I started buying beer exclusively in cans, which are super easy to recycle.
And what do I do with my dogs poop?
If you buy a drink, choose a glass bottle.
My university recently removed glass bottles and replaced with plastic bottles. Granted nobody should drink cokes/muscle "milk"/"tea" in the first place, but they totally miss the point.
When I asked the management about the decision they said plastic bottles can be recycled and are therefore greener than glass bottles. I wanted to to scream but did not.
Glass is far harder to recycle than plastic. Using a refillable bottle is best, but if you're only options are between a glass or plastic bottle & you're going to recycle it after use, plastic is the better option. Glass recycling is very energy intensive & leaves a much bigger carbon footprint than recycling plastic (this is not the case if the glass is being cleaned & refilled, like our beer bottles here in Canada)
Stop using plastic straws, too. Just drink from the rim.
I don't use a straw unless I absolutely need to, pretty much only when I am driving long trips. Saves a lot of plastic in the long run. I probably save 100 straws per year minimum.
And PSA, most tap water is drinkable without being filtered! Obviously check if you're unsure, but we should all be drinking tap water out of reusable containers if we can
When at a restaurant ask for no straw
I’m in Germany rn and most drinks are in glass bottles and recycling is everywhere. They’ve got it figured out here fr.
As someone who frequently needs drinking water for an off-grid community, I am very unhappy that it is currently cheaper to buy individual water bottles at Home Depot than to swap an empty 5gal bottle for a full one (so, not paying for the bottle itself). Perverse incentives abound!
Well good thing beer comes in glass or aluminum.
I knew preferring drinks in glass bottles doesn't make me a snob, it makes me captain planet!
We use Sparkletts 5 gallon jugs and they come and pick up the empties when they drop off new ones to reuse again.
My new years resolution was to use less plastic. I still keep forgetting to bring my own metal cup to Starbucks, but I've all but eliminated plastic bags from my shopping.
If you're drinking your coffee at starbucks rather than taking it to go, you can ask for a "for here" cup and they'll give it to you in a ceramic mug rather than paper cup + plastic lid.
Starbucks sells these $2 reusable plastic cups. I have one I keep in my car. Super convenient, super cute when it comes to their holiday designs, and they wash out super easily, Just need a good rinse.
I don't know if this is true for every Starbucks, but my best friend has worked at two different Starbucks stores over the years and both of then required the barista to make the customer's drink in a paper cup anyway to then just pour into the reusable cup, for sanitary purposes. So same amount of waste there, with the exception of the lid, which I guess would add up.
Huh. I worked at Starbucks back in the day (A year ago), and we only required you keep your lid. We made your drink in your own cup.
No equipment touches your cup, should be fine. 🤔
Interesting. So that must be decided by individual franchise owners (is that right?). And you're right, it really doesn't make sense. Alas.
Starbucks isn't a franchise it's corporately owned though.
That's what I wasn't sure about. I don't know then!
Different county health departments have different rules. In L.A. county we had to wear hats, but in Sacramento where I trained, we didn't.
Supposedly you also get a discount if you bring in one of their reusable cups. My branch on campus seems to forget that a lot though.
Also they do cheap refills of drip/pour over coffee the same day, if you're in their rewards program. So if you have a Starbucks habit that isn't frapps and such, that should also save you some money.
You only get ten cents off for your own cup and hot/iced coffee refills are 55 cents if you bought your drink at that store the same day. And most campus Starbucks' are only licensed stores so they don't actually follow all the same rules.
I have a collection of handmade ceramic mugs that I adore (it's actually getting out of hand, send help), so I always just bring one into coffee shops with me. Having one of my special mugs keeps me from forgetting it.
I had that issue with the Starbucks cup too. I put my cup in the truck the night before now and it’s helped significantly.
Even if you end up using their cup, skipping the straw, lid and plastic stopper means you've just used a paper cup.
Mine too! Im using what we currently have that is in plastic and slowly replacing with alternatives. If only I could remember to bring my produce bags every time. I did recently buy a travel bamboo cutlery kit and metal straw that I take everywhere with me.
That was my resolution too! :)
Start by bringing your own bags to the supermarket and refuse a bag when you really don't need one. For instance if you're buying a 6 pack of bottled beer you don't need that bag. It already has a handle!
Unless you live in a state that forces you to cover the alcohol because a child might see the alcohol and we can’t have that.
Does that really exist? A beer store near me once told me they legally had to give us a bag but we have tons of college kids in the area and it's a larger store and smaller ones down the street don't require it so I always thought they were just trying to cover their asses for some reason.
I don’t know if it’s actually state law but I try to cut down on unnecessary bags and I’ve been stopped in every store. Except when buying 12+ packs, obviously.
Interesting. Also I find the notion that if you buy more beer you don't have to cover it up hilarious.
"No no, that's not enough you should cover that up. It's embarrassing."
I think it's about ease of drinking it on the go, ie public intoxication or DUI. No sources, just my own conclusion. 12 packs and up are packaged in boxes, therefore harder to get into?
Idk, turns out it's just a myth in Texas so I guess I can stop forcing people to take a bag for their single 24 ounces.
A lot of it is cultural hold over from when it was illegal. I live in Iowa and that law hasn't been in effect in 30 years but people still freak out when alcohol isn't in a bag.
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South as well. If it's a sixer of bottles, my local stores usually double-bag them due to their weight. Twice the waste for something that already has a handle because God forbid someone see containers of alcohol.
You have to keep liquor in a paper bag in public in PA, but not beer.
God damn Quaker state bs :(
Yep. Most southern U.S. states do this. It's like children can't even know that alcohol exists. These are the same places that won't let you purchase alcohol on Sundays because it's "Jesus day"
Take it, thank them, and then give it right back or leave it there.
Oh yeah, I bought a four loko the other day, and the 7-11 guy gave me the brown paper bag
THANK YOU! I'll pick up litter around my neighborhood and was always really confused by beer cans and such in paper bags. I didn't get it, and kinda wrote it off as some cheapo attempt at a cozie.
Reusable grocery bags! I’ve been using the same dozen or so for over a decade. Just make it a habit to bring them into the store
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My city (Dallas) passed an ordinance mandating a minimum 5 cent fee for a plastic bag. The bag manufacturers sued them, claiming it was an illegal sales tax (specifically, the state sets a cap on sales tax, and news sales taxes must be approved by voter referendum, which the bag fee was not). The state attorney general (now our governor!) issued an opinion that agreed with the bag manufacturers. The city ended up dropping the fee rather than fighting the law suit.
Edit: And apparently our new attorney general has gone and sued Brownsville on the same basis for a bag ban they instituted.
Edit: Jesus, and apparently we also have a state law that says that cities cannot “prohibit or restrict, for solid waste management purposes, the sale or use of a container or package.” Another city's bag ban has resulted in a state court ruling that plastic bags count as containers for the purposes of that law. Yeah, that's right, we have a law saying that cities can't restrict the use of plastic shopping bags on the basis of reducing waste.
Whenever a city tries to ban or restrict plastic bags in Texas, Republican politicians get up in arms about how they're trying to "Californiaize" the state. Yeah, because a mostly-liberal state has taken a measure to try to reduce litter and pollution, it's a liberal idea and therefore bad. Also, apparently there's at least one big plastic bag manufacturer in the state (the one that sued Dallas), so it's a job killer to restrict plastic bag use, too.
The job killer argument is always hilarious. Society has a bajillion problems that need fixing and most of them don't require a 4 year education, so there's no reason to just keep a job that is actively harming the world!
Yeah, the arguments made by the plastic bag company in the lawsuit were mind boggling. They actually claimed that reusable bags were more harmful to the environment than their plastic bags, which seemed to be on the basis that their plastic bags are recyclable (if you take them to special recycling drop offs because you can't just put them in the city recycling bins at your house, which nobody does). They, of course, provided no data to back up any of their allegations, not that they were relevant in the slightest to the legal argument.
Meanwhile in Austin they straight up banned the plastic bags lol.
*Apparently the Texas Supreme Court is hearing a case about Laredo's bag ban.
Yeah, in Dallas when we did the 5 cent thing, then-AG Abbott said that the fee was an illegal sales tax, but a ban would probably have been fine. That doesn't account for the law being used against Laredo, though, saying that cities can't ban bags for whatever reason. (And of course our city council didn't vote to just ban bags when they reversed the 5 cent fee anyway, cuz that would have been then we'd be all faggoty like Austin).
It depends on the state and sometimes even local government. I know a lot of the west coast has similar rules to yours, while most of the east coast has no restrictions on plastic bags. I’d assume most of the midwest and south don’t have it either, but again it varies area to area. I imagine this will change in the coming years, but it will be a slow process :/
That’s not to say no one uses reusable bags in states without a tax. I’ve never lived in a state with a plastic bag tax and still use reusable bags 95% of the time because I know it’s right, and a sizable minority of people did when I cashiered for a summer too. Then again, I do live in a richer, more left-leaning area
In California, we finally passed a law to help do away with this and then people fought against it, so it took another year or so to actually start enforcing it. People still complain regularly about "them goddamn money-hungry libtards" requiring stores to charge 10 cents per bag, but it's so nice to not constantly see grocery bags litter the streets.
Costco provides boxes and doesn't have bags here. I know some people take their big IKEA bags. Also I think Aldi doesn't have plastic bags.
I prefer reusable bags over plastic bags anyway. They hold so much more stuff. So instead of 20 plastics bags, I need three reusable bags and can make a single trip up two flights of stairs when I get home instead of 5.
What if I hide the beer behind my assault rifle?
The liquor stores where I live are the only place that I can think of that still use paper bags. Still waste I suppose but better than plastic.
Our liquor stores will put it in a paper bag but I don’t keep a lot of liquor in the house, so I usually just buy beer/wine at the grocery store which is only plastic.
I could use reusable bags, but it was more just a comment towards the annoyance that despite most alcohol being designed to easily carry, sometimes they still make you bag it lol.
I'm curious if these states still allow the advertising of alcohol?
You can reuse the bag from the last time. It's reusable if you reuse it.
Woah, beer and a nipple, can't have to young ones seeing that! Hey is that someone getting their chest torn open by a pack of dogs, look kids!!
THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
They usually put it in a paper bag though. At least at liquor stores around here.
Use paper. Paper is at least biodegradable.
what the fuck? this exists? what shithole state does that?
And I thought that was just a long standing tradition for those that prefer to drink -while- driving.
paper bag. which can be reused as book covers for textbooks, storage (I keep my dish drain in one when it's not in use to keep dust off), compost, recyclables can liner, etc.
I get so annoyed when I'm in the self checkout line and I have literally 1 or 2 items and the store employee starts to bag my stuff. I have a pack of toilet paper, and I carried it up to the register just fine, I don't need a bag it doesn't fit in, to carry up to my apartment.
God lord. I work at an art supply store, and very often people will buy the me of our art kits or easels that fold up into a little brief case. It’s a wooden box with and handle. And they ask for a damn bag. So I have to give them one of our biggest bags for this damn thing that is DESIGNED TO BE CARRIED EASILY. Makes my blood boil sometimes. Same thing when someone buys a canvas that’s already wrapped in plastic, or when someone asks for a bag for a couple of pencils or a roll of paper that could easily be held together with an elastic (which I always offer. People still ask for a bag)
Rant over
I started forcing myself to buy the store bags when I forgot mine at home. Now we have a huge stash and keep them in our cars and at home.
If I wasn't so lazy I'd start a photo series of how supermarkets bag my stuff compared to how I'd bag it myself.
In the UK your bags are filled before they're given to you. You can easily fit three loaves of bread in a bag. A bottle of milk will have plenty of space for two or three cans. You can get two or three sodas into a bag before it's too heavy. I mean, you take it in a cart to your car, for fuck's sake.
In the US they will double bag a single bottle of milk. Two loaves of bread in a bag. Bananas get their own. Cans will be put in groups of three and double bagged. It's ludicrous. That isn't even mentioning security that will stop you because you didn't feel the need to bag the single pack of nappies you brought.
I use self service for anything under 20 items just so I can bag my stuff myself. Nobody needs 50 shopping bags.
In the US they will double bag a single bottle of milk. Two loaves of bread in a bag. Bananas get their own. Cans will be put in groups of three and double bagged. It's ludicrous.
This makes me insane. I've seen a guy buy a bottle of iced tea, the cashier double bagged it, he took it and threw the bags in the trash at the front of the store literally 2 seconds later. If they had some policy that said the employees must ask first if the customer wants a bag, it would cut the bag use in half. I usually shop at Aldi and bring my own bag/cart, but when I don't and someone bags my groceries as you described I stand there and rearrange everything conspicuously. The problem is that for everyone who hates extra bags, there's one malignant fucking asshole who will make a stink about double bagging every single item, and I guarantee that person is more likely to yell at the employee or call for the manager.
You can also buy mesh/cloth reusable produce bags on amazon for like $10. No need to use a bag each time you get vegetables,
Oh word never knew that.
My county recently passed an ordinance that requires stores to charge 5 cents per plastic bag and it's working way better than I ever thought it would. Everyone seems to be bringing their own bags to avoid the small fee. A small victory but it makes me happy every time I go grocery shopping.
See I don't know how I feel about that. Sometimes you just forget and it seems like punishing the customer. Although, making stores have to donate to environmental causes instead (maybe EPA for US?) of pocketing the money themselves would be cool. Just spit balling here.
You'd need to forget a lot of bags quite frequently for that to impact the customer's life at all. If there wasn't a fee or the store owner had to eat that fee or roll it into the cost of other products, customers would keep thoughtlessly using endless plastic bags. The fee is the only thing forcing people to think about their wasteful bag use. If you forget a couple of times, oh shit...you're out a few cents, maybe you'll remember next time or get a collapsible bag to keep with you.
I'm pretty sure the fee does not get pocketed by the store, but I'll have to look into it. I've forgotten my bags a few times but I'll gladly pay up to keep a rule like this in effect. And it's tough to argue the additional couple of cents are really going to impact anyone's financial situation, which isn't much of an issue in my county anyway.
I can see things like this being a tougher sell in lower income areas, but I can't really imagine a solution to decreasing disposable bag use that doesn't inconvenience people one way or another.
I avoid bags whenever possible and keep a few in the car but for the life of me cannot remember to bring them when I go in!!!
I said that to my bf the first time he tried to put a gallon of milk in a bag. Not only does it already have a handle, but you're going to have to double bag it because the flimsy plastic won't hold the weight.
Plastic bags use a minuscule amount of plastic. You could have all your groceries bagged up in plastic, and I suspect it won't even touch 1% of your total plastic use for the week. Still, use your own bags. Those things are hard to contain in the landfill if you're just tossing them in the trash.
I think that's a really exaggerated estimate but other than me opting for a plate in my cafeteria at work 3 days a week I'm not sure what else I could do to use less plastic unless using less plastic. If there's hidden consumption like well you drive a car and plastic was involved in the making of that somehow then I really can't control for that.
/r/zerowaste
Yeah, it looks like I'm way off. I don't trust my sources, so I'm not going to list them, but this could be a reasonable ballpark:
In the US, we on average consume 100kg of plastics per person per year. We're responsible for the use of about 1000 plastic bags per person, at an average of 5.5g each, which comes out to represent around 5% of plastic use.
I don't know where all those bags are being used though. If my wife and I used plastic shopping bags, we'd use maybe 10 per week on the extreme end, which would be about 250 bags per year for my share alone, which would actually be around that 1% number I suspected.
How is the other 95% utilized? Do we even have a reasonable choice in the matter?
I'm not sure. I assumed most was packaging since many of the goods we buy are encased in it, or are the packaging, as with bottles of all sorts. I just saw a statistic that these only make up 40% of Americans' plastic consumption though, so I'm guessing the rest is used in the products themselves.
Yea see. We can't really do much about that unless we consume less (which I'm all for). Other than that and things already mentioned, it's on industry to use less plastic.
It's kindof strange looking at the numbers when I was looking into this earlier, because it shows that we use more and more plastic each year, yet it's become mainstream bring our own durable shopping bags and using refillable water bottles. Amazon increasingly uses plastic-free packaging. There are all kinds of low-packaging refills now, like with laundry detergent. It seems like our plastic use should be decreasing.
Well there's population growth, excessive consumerism and industries other than Amazon. Like you can bring your bags to the grocery store but if you get a candy bar every time you kind of undid your efforts to use less plastic.
A lot of things have plastic that you don't think about, but there are alternatives. A lot of foods can be bought in bulk sections, and that way you can use cloth bags or glass jars (tare ofc) instead of the plastic they usually come in.
Giiiirrrrl I work at a bar that does paper straws and all I can think is we don’t really need straws at all. We all know how to drink from the glass
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For me, it's not a hygiene thing. I use straws because I prefer ice (lots!) in my drink and the straw keeps the log jam of ice from hitting you in the face and spilling all over. If paper straws were available in restaurants, I would use them.
Metal straws? My friend carries hers everywhere
Or bamboo
Just be careful with bamboo because the increase in demand had led to unsustainable harvesting methods. Look for a certification or message about harvesting
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When native forests are being clear cut in order to grow bamboo it is an issue
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You can scour clean the inside of a metal straw quickly with cocaine. Just try not to inhale it though, it's very more-ish.
Tastes like more !
I think some straws come with special brushes that you can use to scrub the inside :)
Pipe cleaners! Not just for arts and crafts. :)
Wait so you're saying I can use a pipe cleaner for cleaning a drinking pipe?
The fletching of the blow darts cleans them.
I'm not Robin Hood!
If you look on Amazon there's reusable silicone ones that come with a littles.scrubber for it
My pack of reusable metal straws came with two brushes for cleaning them! :)
I have this irrational fear that if I drink from a metal straw, I will trip and it will lodge in my throat....
Does he also carry an autoclave to avoid getting botulism?
Your friend is a huge coke head
Let me make it a hygiene thing then lol. Most restaurants never (or very rarely) clean their ice machine. There's a huge buildup of gunk and mold in hard to reach places and is just really disgusting for the ice.
Yay for eating out!
My county Health inspector is crazy about ice as the forgotten food. She checks our shit on the reg. I love her.
Yay for eating out!
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Ice gets really disgusting ~~if~~ because the machine's usually not cleaned regularly.
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Well everything does when it's not cleaned. The premise of going to a restaurant is that you trust them with that.
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Oh definitely. Was just in the phrasing of OP, it's not the "if" that's interesting, it is the "because"
Also because there’s always a million other things to do in a restaurant and they’re usually constantly understaffed because labor is one of the few costs that can be controlled for. As long as there isn’t giant chunks of mold winding up in every customer’s drink, nobody’s willing to pay a line cook or server to spend two hours draining, cleaning, and sanitizing the ice machine when all it means is lost money.
I have metal straws. I carry one in my bag and ask for no straw in my drink.
Sorry all I'm picturing is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl4plPGRG8o
Similar, but with ice hitting you in the face as well as liquid.
I don't use straws myself, but just to add to this I've heard people say it is much better for your teeth to use straws when drinking sugary drinks. Apparently it cuts down on cavities when drinking juices and sodas with a straw since the beverage has less contact with the teeth. Not sure how effective it really is though.
I don't think that's true. The best way is to not drink or eat sugar at all.
Seems legit to me, it can prevent the sugar from hitting your teeth. But metal and glass straws exist, no need for plastic
Are paper straws real?
For me it's a mustache thing. I only drink beer from a glass and even then I prefer a can or bottle. It's too damn messy.
You can buy reusable straws (metal, glass, bamboo, silicone, etc.) Online
Buy yourself a stainless steel straw and carry it with you.
(Unrelated) I work in a restaurant and frequently have people order extra ice and have always wondered why.... does it make it more cold or what? I’ve always felt like it’s only going to be so cold and I’d rather have the increased amount of drink than filling up more space with ice. Anyway if you could enlighten me that would be great.
Some people don't like it because it dilutes the drink too much as it melts. I just like my drink (ice tea) really cold. If there's too much in the first glass, the subsequent refills eventually melt it enough. It's just a personal preference. My mom would ask for her drinks with very little ice. That was the way she liked it.
The more ice in the glass, the slower it melts and dilutes your drink :)
Or you could just, you know, drink more slowly? I can honestly say I’ve never had an issue of being clocked in the face with ice if I wasn’t trying to chug or just being clumsy.
Yes, I could. And I did for a really long time, but then I discovered a straw was a quicker way to get liquid into my mouth. I've bumped up the amount of liquids I'm consuming in the past few years. I only do this in restaurants, not at home. I'm not that hooked on straws!
traws do help in that much less of the liquid actually touches your teeth. So, for high-sugar drinks like soda, drinking from a straw actually can reduce tooth-decay due to that sugar hitting your teeth. Same argument for iced tea and similar, with the browning/staining impact of the tea minimized when you drink through a straw.
Not saying it's worth the environmental cost, but there are real benefits to personal health to using straws.
Straws do help in that much less of the liquid actually touches your teeth. So, for high-sugar drinks like soda, drinking from a straw actually can reduce tooth-decay due to that sugar hitting your teeth. Same argument for iced tea and similar, with the browning/staining impact of the tea minimized when you drink through a straw.
Not saying it's worth the environmental cost, but there are real benefits to personal health to using straws.
Your restaurant doesn't give you filtered straws? Peasant!
Ahh, you haven't lived until you have a nice, full mustache and take a pull of a cold draft beer, filling your mustache with head.
Besides, it is sacrilege to drink beer with a straw.
As a man with a big bushy beard, da fuq has a beard got to do with it?
To be fair, I was a dishwasher for a couple years, and there's a lot of lipstick out there that's practically impossible to scrub off of glasses. Paper or metal straws would be good for that.
The one issue I have is I can't use my front teeth for anything. After having treatments done on them for sensitivity, and brushing 2-3 times daily with that sensodine stuff for YEARS, everything still hurts. I can't even eat an apple without cutting it up first. :(
I did buy a set of metal and then another set of glass straws for home. They're easy to clean.
I'm pretty sure it's more to do with the ice in the glass against people's teeth. People don't drink beer from straws and the glasses are cleaned the exact same way.
I live in NYC where every bodega is going to give you a straw if you buy a can of soda/whatever because...mice and rats. Running all over those things.
I'm very much anti-straw and with you on this, but I feel like NYC bodegas alone could basically keep the straw industry in business.
Also I can't fucking believe I just willingly identified myself using the phrase "very much anti-straw".
Ignoring the fact that silverware exists.
If drinking from a straw in a restaurant is kissinf a pustuous penis, using a fork or spoon is like shoving it into your mouth and just going nuts on it with your tongue.
I agree it is stupid to think that a straw makes a glass more sanitary... but there are other (legitimate) reasons for needing a straw. Teeth sensitivity. Canker sores. Easier to drink while driving without spilling, etc. But this can be mitigated by using reusable straws (I got a pack of stainless steel straws off of amazon a while back and so far, so good). We should adjust the materials used for straws and can probably drastically reduce the amount needed, but not all people who ask for a straw are clueless or selfish.
I work in a restaurant. Those glasses come out of the dishwasher so hot we can’t even touch them. I would do surgery with that glassware. I wear fucking gloves to polish it. You want a straw because you don’t trust it? Fuck you, buddy.
"Big straw" lmao
"Big Straw"
Not a cleanliness issue. Temperature. Your mouth is warm, the glass is frosty. You want your mouth to stay warm and the glass to stay frosty. So you don't actually touch the warm thing to the frosty thing, instead using an intermediary so you don't transfer as much heat.
Glasses with stems are for the same reason. OG drink chilling tech.
Holy shit, that’s such a good point
Ive got a buddy that SWEARS he got herpes from a bar glass.
He absolutely will not drink out of any glass at a bar or restaurant.
How could he know that? Must live a very lonely life.
That’s his story...and he’s sticking to it.
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That’s a great point. And yes, he does!
There is some Hepatitis risk, but that's marginal.
And some bartender with gross hands that just handled cash grabs a bare straw on the end you put in your mouth, puts it in your drink, and expects you to suck on it.
I hate straws, but I always get this objection when I'm eating out with new people.
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Get a reusable straw. I used to carry one around from 711 (it was meant for slushies). It was a metallic-looking thing and a really pretty turquoise color.
How do you keep it clean? Did it come with its own little pipe cleaner?
Edit: I just ordered a set that comes with a little bamboo case and a cleaner! I’m about to become one of you guys!
I mainly drank water with it so the worst I were chapstick stains up top. But they have small pipe cleaners off amazon that you can use to clean it!
We got a bunch of that type of straw from a local gas station and I literally just went and got a bunch of pipe cleaners from the craft section and that's what I use. Works like a charm!
Mine came with a little pipe cleaner! They also have little rubber ends so you can chew the straw.
Aw man! That’s an interesting addition!
I just ordered some stainless ones, but they come with a bamboo case and a cleaning tool so I’m happy.
which reusable straw did you get?
I need one too as my teeth are super sensitive. I usually carry around my water bottle with one in it, but its a comically large silicone straw that doesnt always fit in a cup.
Even this is a challenge to me tbh... I go out a lot with just what's in my pockets (wallet, keys, phone) and sometimes end up in situations where I'm at a restaurant and need a straw for my cold, painful, ice laden drink. So like, what? A reusable straw definitely won't fit in my pocket
I am a woman and carry around a purse. I guess it’s different...
Thank you!! Me too! I get judged when I ask for a straw but otherwise it hurts me teeth.
Try bringing your own reusable straw when you go out to eat/drink. Also, if you haven't been using a toothpaste designed for sensitive teeth, try it. I always thought that sensitive teeth toothpastes wouldn't make a difference until I tried one and now I can have cold/hot beverages with half the pain that I used to have.
For most people, yes, but the paper straw option should still be there for anyone who finds it easier due to disability :)
I work at a place that sells little milk cartons like you used to get in school, but we don't provide any straws. I had a little girl yell at me last night because how else was she supposed to drink her milk? I don't know, via the carton like kids have been doing for decades now?
The school cartons are a lot harder to open than the half gallon cartons, though. Or perhaps I'm not remembering correctly.
Straws are better for your teeth if it’s juice or soda though
Edit: I am not advocating straws, I merely pointed out they also have benefits
Editing again: I don’t personally use straws!!
If you're worried about your teeth, you probably shouldn't be drinking juice or soda to begin with.
I’m sure everyone is worried about their teeth to some degree. I don’t drink soda but my kids do like juice. I don’t think it’s crazy to suggest people who drink juice/soda occasionally still care about their teeth
unless you're just drinking water or white milk, whatever you're drinking is going to fuck with your teeth
or at a bar drinking alcohol with those for mixers
OK, similar argument for iced tea.
Iced tea stains your teeth and can cause buildup. Drinking it through a straw drastically reduces that. And I don't think you can argue the unsweetened iced tea is not healthy for you.
Same goes for coffee though.
Unless you put sugar in it, coffee won't do anything to your teeth except discolor them a bit. And if you do put sugar in your coffee, it's probably simpler to stop doing that than to quit drinking coffee.
You can buy reusable metal straws.
I use straws because I drink ungodly amounts of iced tea and I don't want tea stains on my teeth. Same with iced coffee.
Same! I'm a tea fiend.
One of us!
So use a reusable straw
So you'd rather contribute to the demise of the planet in order to have whiter teeth? Come on. (Go ahead, downvote, but really - why do so many people not care about the environment?)
Edit: if you're using reusable straws, I apologize. I use reusable and forget that other people do as well. If you're using plastic, STOP DAMNIT.
The aggressive approach is probably not the way to get people to change their habits. This is part of why people keep ignoring our planet's needs: we keep approaching people angrily for their choices rather than helping identify appropriate and reasonable alternatives for that person.
True, but A) you shouldn't be drinking enough juice or soda for this to matter much, and B) just practice better dental hygiene. Even a quick rinse of your mouth with water after meals makes a difference.
My kids dentist advised for them to use straws every time they drink soda, even after I explained thats only a few times a year, reserved for Christmas & birthday parties
Get reusable crazy straws, duh!
Then use reusable straws
Straws do help in that much less of the liquid actually touches your teeth. So, for high-sugar drinks like soda, drinking from a straw actually can reduce tooth-decay due to that sugar hitting your teeth. Same argument for iced tea and similar, with the browning/staining impact of the tea minimized when you drink through a straw.
Not saying it's worth the environmental cost, but there are real benefits to personal health to using straws.
Not sure if you're saying the bar doesn't need straws or humanity in general doesn't need straws. I can think of a few reasons why humanity needs straws.
Such as: children should use straws because they might spill otherwise, people who require them due to difficulty using a regular glass (like when my sister was recovering from a coma), people with sensitive teeth who get pain from cold drinks, and people who don't want to stain their teeth with tea/coffee.
That may be so and regardless im just stating an opinion that shouldn’t overly offend anyone I hope. But I’m really glad everyone is posting there opinions and having a discussion about some alternatives. It makes me really positive :)
That great! If it helps any I wasn't offended at all. I can just see why they might be needed. If only there were a way to make it easier for people with disabilities to drink out of a glass I might consider the uselessness of straws. But until then, I think they definitely help those who can't hold a glass.
This is my most commented on post. How exciting!
Congratulations! :) Enjoy it!
Thanks! I am!
I like using a straw with soda because it's not as bad for your teeth.
I have sensitive teeth, I like my beverages super cold and I need the straw to get the cold past my teeth into my mouth. Plus, it's better for teeth if you drink acidic things like orange juice through a straw. I have reusable straws for my water bottle that get washed and used over and over, so while I have reasons for using straws there's no reason to use disposable straws. You can finds lots of options on Amazon, complete with cleaning brushes and some that even come with little sleeves to keep them clean in your bag!
I don't like that people will put a straw in a can... i just can't understand why.
Do you wash the can before you put your mouth on it? Cans are disgusting.
Not that I wash them either...
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Seriously, it's almost like we have an immune system for a reason.
The reason that I've been given is typically that they want to keep from staining their teeth with whatever they're drinking.
Cans are stored in environments where rodents and other pests are free to run around on and take shits on. They're fucking disgusting.
That's good for my immune system then! I'm rarely sick.
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Reminds me of this documentary I saw a while ago. It talked about people who live super sterilized lifestyles and end up getting sick because of it. As a cure doctors injected them with parasitic worms. It was posted on r/Documentaries but I can't seem to find it.
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Funnily enough if you watch the video you posted there wasn't any rat pee on the real-world cans.
It doesn't bother me. which people might find gross, but I'm not going to panic over a can. It's really hard to get me grossed out by things.
Also just another thought, if you put rats near something or as you said "fuck around on it for 24 hrs" typically animals pee or poop throughout the day, so if they are in close proximity then yeah that's going to happen. Cans that Ive used in jobs, were stored up high or on a rack away from stuff like that. That's where I'm coming from.
I've seen food treated shittier than cans but typically people don't second guess their food. I've seen owners pick up food off the floor that roaches were on and put it back in the display case and people don't second guess it.
I've probably dribbled on myself three or four times out of thousands drinking from a can. I imagine that number would be closer to zero with a straw. Probably not worth caring about though lol.
I love straws though, you can get metal ones that last a while too.
For men with facial hair straws are a must.
So get a reusable straw
Maybe you could ask people if they want a straw instead of just offering them?
For regular people that's a great idea, but certain people like me need straws. In my case it's from an injury that caused me to have nerve damage in my mouth. Straws are my friend lol. But if you don't absolutely need one, cutting out straws are indeed a good way to help the environment.
I personally need straws. I have sensitive teeth, and I can only drink soda at room temperature without a straw. It's physically painful to drink cold drinks without a straw.
Speak for yourself, miss who probably doesn't wear matte lipstick!
Lick before you drink and the lip won’t stick ;)
For people with neurological problems of a facial injury, drinking from a cup may not be possible, so I think it’s awesome for restaurants to have a few washable straws or paper straws on hand if people ask, but yeah, most people can drink from a cup.
This is incorrect. I love straws. How in god's name am I supposed to sip alcoholic beverages while reclining on my porch? Sit up straight like some lunatic?
You can take my straw when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.
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There are tons of reusable straws on the market, amazon sells them. Even milkshake size ones I believe.
Already all over that, my man. I use big silicone straws.
Cleaning straws can be a hassle if you don’t have the tools!
I literally put them in my silverware rack with my utensils. They almost always come out perfectly clean unless I drank something like a smoothie before. Even then, a pipe cleaner does a great job.
My bamboo straw came with a brush for it
Stainless Steel straws are awesome and dirt cheap on Amazon.
I get worried that I'll smash my teeth on them if I get drunk. I use big silicon straws! So awesome.
Lipstick babes
For adults it's fine but straws and lids are the key to not having your kids dump their drinks all over the place every time you go out. However, I bought some metal dishwasher-safe straws off Amazon and I try to carry those!
I use metal straws and love them.
People who are OCD or just very disgust sensitive use straws. My friend's mom was like this. She was afraid of touching her mouth to the can or the rim of a glass, so she always used a straw.
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OCD isn't logical.
They’re better for your front teeth’s whiteness mainly
Man I’ve been pushing the manager at my bar/grill to get biodegradable cutlery, cups, and straws. I need to bug him more about it.
A really big restaurant around me just decided not to use disposable straws anymore. It's pretty cool, and apparently the math does work out at that volume, even accounting for the ones that will get stolen.
I’m a klutz and I always spill on myself, so I use straws, but I like to use metal and glass straws. They are pretty cheap and then I don’t have to feel bad.
It keeps from messing up your lipstick. Or spilling on yourself like an idiot, which I do regularly. Also, for acidic drinks like soda using a straw is better for your teeth because the liquid makes less contact.
Whenever I eat out, I always ask for no straw, and the server always looks at me strange, like no one has ever not wanted a straw before. They'll even ask, "Why don't you want a straw?" And I'll say, "Because I'm an adult."
I like straws... if they’re recyclable ones then I don’t see the issue.
People with neurological or muscular issues may find it easier to sip from a straw while leaving the glass on the table.
Also autistic people or people with sensory issues can struggle with the sensation of drinking directly from the glass. My friends autistic 8 year old would sometimes get me to even hold the glass for him. (He's very sweet about it and since he can't really communicate verbally I kind of like the interaction.)
Those are the only two reasons I can think of for needing straws but i'm sure there might be a few more.
I bought reusable metal straws for my kids at home and they now love them for ice cold smoothies. Those would be a nightmare to clean in a hospitality setting though!
Paper straws fucking suck. They fall apart when they get soaked, like wtf is the point
I just have really sensitive teeth. So if I drink ice cold drinks without a straw, my teeth ache.
Good luck using a glass in a car
my hands don't work. I cant drink from a glass, or write my name, or use forks. And many others cant as well. we need straws. paper would be good. steel/glass would be good. But we need straws. Please don't quickly judge. Some of us cant do the things the rest of us can. We are trying. We just are not able. Please don't quickly judge. One nation.
Oh dear, I never meant to offend and you’ve definitely made me consider the alternative. Perhaps we can get paper straws that don’t look like circus gear lol! Sorry if I offended it was not my intention
I am totally not the slightest bit offended. There are already way to many offended people, so I decided not be one. We are totally cool. I just wanted to share a different perspective with you. I feel like an idiot using straws for beer and wine, btw, I just don't have a choice. Have a great weekend!
You are a good person of the internet:)
so this morning, I made myself an AWESOME breakfast burrito. Black beans, Mexican rice, taco meat, tater tots, eggs, sour cream and salsa. It was PHENOMENAL! Poured a pint of cranberry juice to wash it down. Sat down to consume this mighty repast. Started with a sip of the cran. My hands spaz out. My shirt is stained. My burrito is swimming in cranberry juice. FUCK! I grab paper towels and sop up my plate/burrito. I run to the pantry for a straw. Nope. Out. I go to the office, find a bic pen. Bite the tip and jerk. Bite the cap and jerk. Now I have a hollow tube, and breakfast is served.
So, like, we REALLY need straws, ya dig?
I dig. RIP breakfast burrito
The straw stops ice and surrounding liquid from touching your teeth, though, which is good if you're sensitive to cold.
What if the glasses are not cleanly washed? Thats my biggest fear at restaurants..
There's no magic barrier between your drink and the rest of the glass.
I guarantee the industrial washing machines at restaurants are doing a better job of cleaning dishes than your dishwasher at home is.
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Longer =! better.
Those commercial machines are serviced regularly, and health departments inspect for sanitation regularly. If they didn't do a fantastic job of sanitation the restaurant industry would be in a horrible mess.
designed to get the job done in minutes
Exactly. They are designed to do what they do with high reliability. The chemicals and temperatures that those $15k machines use do a far better than the job your $300 machine does at home with your $2.99 box of detergent.
Your glasses are probably coming out cleaner at home.
I doubt it. Having worked for several years as a restaurant manager I would not have accepted non-clean, non-sanitary dishes. But even the dishes with caked on grime that had to be manually scrubbed off was sanitized when it came out of the dish washer.
Bruh, I pour drinks for a living and I recently stopped putting straws in water cups. During Lent I met a few people trying to give up single use plastics. One woman asked for no straw. "I brought my own straw, it's biodegradable" she said as she unwrapped it. That's great. Why don't you drink from the glass like an adult?
I love you.
Join us at r/ZeroWaste for tips on the how part. You definitely don't have to commit to "zero" waste, but anyone looking for tips on how to cut down their waste, particularly plastic, is welcome.
For the love of god, stop using plastic straws!
The United States throws out, on average, 500 million straws PER FUCKING DAY. PER DAY.
Yes, PER DAY.
STOP USING STRAWS, GODDAMNIT.
(Sorry, this really bothers me.)
I just recently found out about this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch
"Estimates of size range from 700,000 square kilometres (270,000 sq mi) (about the size of Texas) to more than 15,000,000 square kilometres (5,800,000 sq mi) (0.4% to 8% of the size of the Pacific Ocean)."
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This is very true. The hard part is getting people on board.
In an askreddit thread recently people were talking about how stupid it was that California is trying to pass a law where restaurants/food places will only give you a straw if you ask for one.
How is that stupid?? It reduces plastic and you can still have your useless piece of trash if you ask for it. People will complain about the smallest inconveniences.
i would say the majority of people arent even having the conversation
Yeah that's accurate. A lot of people don't think or talk about this stuff.
Check out the online zero waste community, there's people who take it way farther. Some even produce less than a jar worth of trash per year.
No single-use plastic
How about everything we buy doesn’t come in ridiculous amounts of cardboard and that hard rigid plastic. Just use tissue paper or something minimal.
Cloth diapers are more work, but it's kinda sad realizing that kids probably average 7 diapers a day while they're in them and each will be in the ground forever.
Pro tip: Tim hortons will actually charge you less if you bring your own thermos or mug. Also, if your thermos is bigger than their cups, you can ask for medium and they’ll usually just fill it up all the way. McDonald’s on the other hand just refuses to put it in your thermos.
Agreed. The one thing I can't stand is people buying bottled water.
For fuck sake, you have a near limitless supply at home that doesn't come with a bottles worth of plastic every 500ml.
I live in Key West and the whole town is trending towards going strawless. It's great, and some places are using paper straws already
Are straws somehow a lot more common in the US? I can say when Ive used a straw for the last time...in my mind straws are a thing for children that cant lift the glasses properly (I'm from Germany)
They come in most mixed and frozen drinks, and this is a bar town
Just get better about reusing glass. Don't just throw away all your glass jars. Those glass containers for tomato sauce make great containers, just like plastic ones.
I've yet to find a glass jar that didn't make for great reuse. Tiny ones (like capers jars) are good for things like salad dressing in a lunch brought from home; big spaghetti sauce jars are good for things like pen cups on your desk or storing leftover soup or noodles; tall, skinny ones that peppers or olives come in are great for leftover dry rice or beans, since they're easier to control pouring out of when you go to measure later. The Hubert's Lemonade bottles are great for this too!
The only jar reuse issues I have come across are pickle jars, because they tend to retain a very strong pickle odor even after washing. I think it's the wax on the lid that really retains the smell. We've tried soaking in just about every solution we can think of, but maybe sun-bleaching would help?
I just reuse them to make my own pickles, super easy.
Edit: Also, I love using sauce jars to store leftover pasta. Don't even have to rinse it out, just some extra sauce.
Well now I have an excuse to try homemade pickles... 😁
I am a jar lover. I have a dozen mason jars of every size. Lunches for my SO go in jars, as do any left overs we have. I recently decided to stop using ziplocks for my toddler's daycare packed lunch and start using wax paper bags instead. They are actually cheaper too which is nice.
Reusing glass is great. But producing it and shipping it takes WAY more energy and resources than plastic.
You can recycle glass, and if it ends up in the ocean it will break down unlike plastic.
I don't think colored glass can be recycled, at least not cost effectively. But that doesn't change how much energy it takes to make it and move it in the first place. Similar to how plastic grocery bags are arguably better for the environment than paper.
Instead of producing more glass we could just send it back to the bottling plant to be washed and refilled. That's how Ecuador does it anyways.
Yeah, and that transportation and handling also takes a lot of energy and other resources.
We're doing it. Our entire household of 4 generates approximately 3 grocery bags of trash a month. We opted for monthly trash pickup and often only need to take it out every other month.
We're still learning but making good progress. The big things!
Reduce/reuse
Recycle
If this stuff is blowing your mind, consider checking out "zero waste" books from the library for more tips on how to do this :P
Thank you for all of this info. And thank you to you and your family for being so awesome!
I love how my local supermarket stopped giving out plastic bags... now I have to buy plastic garbage bags of my own
It is frustrating to me that so many people refused to get on board with reuse and reduction until it was more or less too late. My family has been reusing our plastic single-use bags 2-4 times for years upon years now. Bag groceries, then reuse as a lunch bag, then reuse as a trash bag or dog poo bag, maybe even use the trash liner 2-3 times if the trash isn't super gross. If more people had refused unnecessary bags and focused on reuse from the get-go, maybe we wouldn't be in such a mess wrt how to handle these bags. Treating them as "single use" was the first mistake.
I have never gotten home from the supermarket and just threw a bag away.
get a water filter and refill bottles.
get a coffee pot and put the k cup maker away
get dish rags/cloth in lieu of paper towels (paper waste and plastic wrapper)
cook more food order out less.
The same applies to styrofoam
Ugh. Fucking styrofoam.
That’s one of millions of problems. As a human race all we do is consume consume consume. We’re the worst thing that could’ve happened to this planet/other species. All we do is destroy things to live our selfish lives. We tell ourselves things such as “well I have to get to work so I have to drive.” Or just forget how our meals are made and jut scarf that shit down and move on with our day. No thought because we didn’t have to hunt or prepare the food. Out of sight out of mind. “Oh I want my own kids. As many as I want. Who cares about how many resources they use.” Meanwhile kids need to be adopted. It’s absolutely amazing how we reconcile shitty daily decision after shitty daily decision because everyone else is doing it and it’s how our society is. I love being alive and all that but fuck do we need to be destroyed as a whole. We’re like a goddamn virus
/r/zerowaste
There are a whole bunch of us doing this over at /r/ZeroWaste. Come join us!
Use a straight razor. Or if you are scared get a safety razor With a disposable single blade.
Why the fuck would I need 4 blades on a single razor ???
Then get a bowl, shaving brush and shaving soap. Lasts long and no plastic or metal bottle.
Your facial skin will thank you.
buy less shit you don't need. make the stuff you do buy last as long as possible, either by taking care of them, or fixing them instead of just buying new ones.
Plastic irritates me so much!
I work in retail and I'm continually appalled by the amount of plastic packaging companies use. My store doesn't even sell perishables and yet everything is wrapped in tons of plastic. Not to mention putting one or two small, non fragile items in a box filled with packing material, which we don't recycle because it's plastic.
There's only so much consumers can do when companies are making these decisions. I mean I'm pretty good about not using paper cups or plastic utensils, but it makes so little difference it's depressing.
All governments adding a 5p tax would be a massive start. It has completely changed single use plastic bag usage in Britain.
More places in the states are doing this, but there are still people who will kick and scream about it.
In my county in California we made a bag tax of 10 c per bag, either paper or plastic. I worked in a grocery store when that became a law. Most people were totally stoked on it and supported it, but there were still the people who would cause a scene in the checkout line about how unfair it was, how they used the bags for other things, how they refused to pay for a bag, it was a scam that the grocery stores were making to make more money, etc. One person said that he wanted to go and protest about it lol. It's not that hard to keep bags in your car, bags in your purse, the rare occasions where you forget just pay for a bag or if you don't need it don't use it. People used to get bags for like two fucking items. And I've been to tons of events where people give out reusable bags for free, so it's not like it costs a lot to do.
But, now that we have it it's been really successful and spreading to more places so that's good!!
So happy it’s happened there as well! Cheers for letting me know. I now live in Dubai (sell out I know) where they give you a bag for a pack of cigs. Absolute joke. The plastic bag tax is just the start, the black plastic they use in supermarkets that cannot be recycled has to be next
Oh god, a bag for a pack of cigs?? It's insane the things that people will get bags for. I've seen people bag their milk cartons that have a fucking handle built into them
But yes, I'm very happy it's happened here as well!! I didn't know Britain had it as well so I was happy to find that out. More counties, cities, and states are passing laws about it so I'm feeling optimistic that it's catching on!!
At the very least, make sure the plastic you do use gets reused.
I'm trying to implement this in my life. I'm currently lugging around my metal reusable water bottle. Haven't used a water bottle in a few weeks. It's a small step but I feel good about it. Water bottles are such an immense waste.
Use reusable glass or stainless steel for drinking and food storage. The toxic shit like BPA in plastics is really bad for your health anyway. It's especially concerning for men because it lowers testosterone.
One of the best purchases I made was a large water bottle. Our family used to buy cases of bottled water by the dozens but that’s a thing of the past. I can’t believe how much plastic was wasted! Now we each have a refillable bottle and haven’t had to buy a case since! Plus our water uptake has skyrocketed; I can’t remember the last time we’ve had soda in the house.
I've been looking at those biodegradable forks made from cornstarch.
They also make ones out of potatoes and vegetables!!
Man, our backup needs to be to breed some bacteria to eat plastics. Like, maybe a phototrophic reaction or something. We've already created so much waste, we really need to figure out a good way to make it into a useful degradable foodsource for something.
Don’t use lids and straws.
Even better, carry your own reusable container.
I have a stainless steel coffee mug that I have with me 90% of the time and have had zero problems using it instead of a disposable cup, even at places like Taco Bell.
I'm investing in metal straws. We drink a lot and it is crazy how many straws you can go through.
Getting the clerks at grocery stores, Wal-Mart, etc. to put more than two items per bag would help. I hate leaving the store with 10 items in six bags.
Agreed! We all need to be less wasteful in general. I've stopped using disposable makeup cloths and now I'm trying to convince my husband to give up the keurig and go back to a traditional coffee maker.
If he's dead-set on using the keurig, switch him over to reusable k-cups! They can be washed out and filled with new coffee grounds so no waste.
Glass bottles. In some countries, like Uruguay, they give you a partial refund if you take the glass bottles back to the store when they’re empty, instead of throwing them away. Never saw anyone in my family throw away a drink bottle. Also, try not to use paper towels! Used one to dry my hands off once, uncle looked at me like I was a she-devil. Never again.
Thank you! This is the first thing on my list.
A lot of places in California charge 10 cents for bags now. And the bags they do have are tougher and more reusable. I've probably carried out my things 50+ times in the past few years. In all of those cases I probably would've used plastic bags if they were free. My town's population is 30k. So even if 1/4 of the people in my town do the same thing as me, that's a few million plastic bags over the course of a few years.
I do my absolute best to avoid using plastic and other disposable stuff.
I keep silverware at work and almost always bring my own food in tupperware.
I NEVER use plastic bottles unless I'm stuck and desperate. A reusable Nalgene or the like goes a LONG WAY.
Resuable grocery bags, obviously.
Being conscious of it when I'm shopping. For example, buying a big tub of greek yogurt instead of the individual serving containers.
A change I made in the last year was switching to regular floss from those plastic toothpick dealies. A small inconvenience, but it's these kinds of minor lifestyle changes that can have a MASSIVE impact if enough people get on board.
I don't mean to toot my own horn, but this kind of stuff doesn't really change my quality of life at all.
you should look into how many straws are used in US alone on a daily basis, its something absurd. These type of little things (simply not using a straw) I think can help.
My roommates always think I'm weird, but I'll pick plastic out of the garbage, rinse/clean it, and take it to the recycling plant. I know I should just use less, but I'll admit it's convenient. Until I'm at a point where I have more sustainable options easily available, I try to take care of the waste responsibly.
I hate plastic. Stop buying water. Tap water in North America & most of developed world is safe. Bottle water comes from municipal water and plastic bottles are biggest waste.
Plan, think before using that plastic bag, use ceramic for coffee instead of paper.
I think an easy one is just quit using straws. Don't take them when you go to McDonalds or the movie theatre. I know it's a pain in the ass to pop the lid and drink like a cup, but it ain't that bad really and man fuck straws.
If you work in an office that uses creamers beg and plead for them to switch to just having cartons of milk / half-and-half. Creamers are the fuckin worst and (at least where I live) cannot be recycled.
Furthermore, don’t get a lid
Head over to r/ZeroWaste for advice.
We should start using biodegradable plastic for perishables, it's only good a week well the packaging dosnt need to last 10k years
More places are doing this!! I've seen those, plus cutlery that's made out of plant material that's biodegradable. I'm hoping this catches on more.
I'm my opinion. The easiest way would be for grocery stores to do like Costco or sams club and make people bring their own bags. Also utilizing Brita jugs and having your own personal water bottle that you fill daily.
It's not perfect but I try to reuse my plastic bottles as much as possible. I'll buy a 79 cent bottle of water at the start of the week and use it for atleast an entire week or two before eventually discarding it. I'll try to rinse it out overnight.
Why not just buy a reusable bottle?
Why not just buy a metal water bottle or reusable plastic like a nalgene?
Charge companies for disposable plastic. They may go the right way, if it's cheaper of course.
Yes please. Save my people.
I agree but I always found this "let's stop doing this thing, everyone" strategies never work. We pretty much need to make a green option more convenient for it to take mass effect. Convenience always wins
Availability definitely helps.
I could definitely cut back but I honestly have no idea how I'm supposed to pick up dog poop on my daily walk.
You can buy biodegradable bags for dogs, they're at the grocery stores in my area at least.
I mean... that's nice but I have to pay for those. The plastic bags are free (when I buy groceries)
I would further this with we need to stop with most one-use things altogether. Would help with the littering problem also.
Best thing you can do is don't use disposable straws if you pick just one thing.
Hypothetically speaking, if one had a large stockpile of collected plastic bags sitting in their closet, what would be the best use for them besides as trash bags?
Some grocery stores have bins at the front to recycle them. Other than that you could use them for groceries until they break
Cut the bags into strips and make ‘yarn balls’ with them. Then crochet them into mats for homeless people to sleep on. My nan and I used to do this. Otherwise, many places have a large bin you can bring all of your plastic bags back to. Worst case, just recycle them.
I have tried to minimize plastic bags in most places. But the one thing I don’t have a solution is trash.
/r/zerowaste
You can use less trash bags if you produce less trash in the first place
/r/zerowaste or look it up on YouTube. Lots of people have tips for reducing plastic on there.
/r/zerowaste
Check out /r/zerowaste for some ideas. It seems daunting but baby steps are still steps.
/r/ZeroWaste
/r/zerowaste
USA is one of the countries (at least in NJ) where I see no effort whatsoever to minimize plastic usage. In India, you have to pay extra to use plastic bags in grocery stores and most people carry cloth bags. They have also replaced use of plastic cups on trains. I noticed similar rules in Ireland when I visited there. At my local grocery in NJ, they make no attempt to minimize bag usage and fill about 3 items per plastic bag. They proceed to double bag these super strong sturdy plastic bags. I have moved to taking cloth bags to all grocery stores. I try not to buy plastic bottles/cups and if I decide to buy them once in a while, my five year old chides me for using too much plastic. It's a start.
I do my part by drinking very little bottled water and if I'm out I reuse a gallon jug for a week
I'm going to agree, but slightly alter your plight with a disagreement. We need to foster the hemp industry, and utilize biodegradable plastic that we are fully capable of producing.
I have heard that plastic straws can be replaced with rice ones.
You can buy reusable bamboo, stainless steel, glass, silicone, etc. straws.
We’ve got to sustainably use more paper, and substitute metal where we can.
But we’ve also got to recycle that metal
there is a spring near me that I can just go and refill the plastic bottles that I already own
That was my number one thought with morals.
I think something people don't realize is that plastic wrapping is not recyclable. The only way to dispose of it is to burn it.
I disagree - we've got to attack companies that mass produce plastic. The blame shouldn't be on the consumer - I don't produce a zillion tons of k-cups per year, god damn it.
We have to hit both fronts
But what would we replace it with
It has to be a priority. Currently the only real priority is money.
Either that or fund some sort of method to break it down sustainably.
Lots of cities have banned disposable plastic bags. It's really easy and you adjust to it really quickly.
There's really no big mystery here. The way to use less plastic is just to use less plastic. We don't actually need it for much.
Are paper bags significantly better? I hate when I forget my reusable grocery bag, but i do always use the paper ones for my recycling if I wind up with them.
Yes. Paper bags can be recycled a few times and then at the end of their material life can be composted or used as fire starters. On the other hand, plastic can only be recycled a few times before it ends up in a landfill for eternity.
A good start is just to stop using disposable water bottles. Get a good metal reusable bottle and it will last years.
Edit your post and tell people to stop buying water bottles and to purchase a Brita filter water bottle for when outside the house and a pitcher for their fridge. A lot of people buy water bottles when they can just filter their tap water and save a boat load of money.
I've started to feel guilty buying plastic bags at the grocery store. have canvas bags in my car but I always forget them and the paper ones don't hold up well under the weight of my frozen burritos.
Stop revolving your identity over the things that outrage you and instead focus on the good things you contribute to the world.
Care about things that are worth caring about. Give a fuck about things that actually make your life better. Be more grateful.
"Care about things (and people) that are worth caring about."
Give a fuck about things that actually make your life better.
ie. Stop bitching and get to work.
I know you didn’t say that for me but god I really needed to hear that, thanks.
Maybe he did say it exactly for you. Maybe this is the way of universe sending message to people.
I thought the same thing :) Have a wonderful day, friend!
Thanks, I wish you best fellow stranger.
This comment deserves a gold, too bad I am broke.
good thing i don't care about gold :)
this is touched on very well in The Subtle Art of Not Giving A Fuck
The Life-Changing Magic of Not Giving a F*ck: How to Stop Spending Time You Don't Have with People You Don't Like Doing Things You Don't Want to Do by Sarah Knight Published December 29th 2015
The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck: A Counterintuitive Approach to Living a Good Life by Mark Manson Published September 13th 2016
Same shit, 2015 edition I guess. I wonder who's writing the 2017 edition unless it's actually by the same person under a different name.
Get a copy of Epictetus's Enchiridion, Seneca's Letters, and Aurelius's Meditations, and read them. And then re-read them.
Give a fuck about things that actually make your life better. Be more grateful.
Hmm.
it's basic shit that everyone knows but it's not burned into us like a arsonic tattoo. This should change.
This is basically what changed my life. Freshman year of HS I became a hardcore atheist. It was terrible, my life revolved around my hate for religion and I was miserable and making my wonderful parents miserable by constantly mocking their beliefs. At some point I realized, I don't want my life to be defined by hate and it really does make a world of a difference. I've been, give or take, happy for the past 5 years because I focus on the good and try to improve myself and others around me when they ask for help. Don't live in hate, live for the betterment of yourself and the world and you'll be much happier.
Yes. And get your own life in order before first before you go out screaming at society.
I'm eating cheese nips and drinking Pepsi in bed on a Thursday. I have my life in order.
No one who has their life in order would eat nips over its.
Toasted Cheez-its reign supreme.
"Sir, we burnt the Cheez-its..."
"Just slap 'Toasted' on the box and send them out!"
Interesting story.
When I was a younger man I knew someone working in a packaging plant that processed em. He wound up getting a hold of a sleeve that was roughly 10 bags worth of its that were deemed not sellable, just crushed and the flavors got mixed.
He gave it to me, I draped that bastard over the back of my couch and cut a slit in it.
So many its.
I liked the story. But it wasn't that interesting
My pride!
Use to be the golden nugget in the otherwise lack luster box of its... but now I can have as many as I want.
I like the toasted cheez-its, but I've never had a whole box of them. I should try those...
They just came out with some cheese pizza cheez its. Slap a slice of pepperoni between 2 crackers and bam you gotta pepperoni pizza.
Absolutely NOT.
TEAM TOBASCO
You have to spell it right in order to declare yourself part of that team
Oh... So this is what it feels like to disappoint myself
Imagine how your father must feel all the time. Really puts things into perspective, doesn’t it?
jesus the internets got cuts today
Cheez-It's Groves are the one true Cheez-It, you heretic!
Those better be White Cheddar.... Get that zesty ranch and original out of my face!
So I buy the big cheez itz, throw them on a baking pan, shred up some cheddar and sprinkle it over the cheez itz, then bake them for 5-8 minutes. It's ridiculously good, they are extra toasty and extra cheesy
Does anyone remember Cheez-Itz Twisterz? Those were my favorite in college then they went away forever
Are you fucking kidding me?
BUFFALO CHEEZ-ITS REPRESENT!
Sorry, Better Cheddars forevers.
My Brand!
Toasted Cheez-its have made all other Cheez-it flavors obsolete.
I dunno, I got a box of them and they're kinda meh. It's kinda old though so they might just be stale
Focusing on the issues that matter. Doing God's work son.
it's all about the cheese powder they're covered in. only reason I like them more than Itz
Cheese nips are POISON!
Big facts
Why we're all here.
^^(not-very-subtle) Fistpump!
They're POISON!
/r/jerma985
Real connoisseurs of baked cheese snacks partake in Stauffer’s Whales.
This is the deepest and truest thing I’ve ever read on reddit.
nips ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Or pepsi over coke.
That shit is how you get institutionalized.
I’m calling bullshit. Nips are far superior than regular cheez it’s.
chess it's
Or Pepsi instead of Coke
This is odd. I had this whole internal monologue about this last night when I was eating cheese its and here you guys are reading my mind
The "giant" Cheez-itz that's a game changer there.
What would be better than these little Cheez-its?
I don't know bread sized cheez-its you can make a sandwich out of?
They're not talking about the cracker
I like your style, cheese nips are superior.
Well obviously no-one in this thread has yet discovered cheetos Paws. All faux-chee' snacks died the day I stumbled upon paws and now the sun rises and sets there in the space between.
It's acceptable to eat Whales when you can't afford Goldfish but never good to eat Cheese Nips when you can have Its.
Pepsi
I have my life in order.
Contradictory.
Cheese Nips?? Pepsi??!
who hurt this person
[deleted]
blech it's like nails on a chalkboard
/r/cheesitsandcocacolamasterrace
Bepis*
I clip some chips to your hips, I nibble chips off you hips and watch the moon eclipse
This sounds oddly sensual...
Wow that's... Freaky
Lol
Damn you.
I'm envious now.
Cheese nips and Pepsi? Your life is far from in order.
I thought Cheese Nips went out of business?
Add watching anime to that list and it sounds like a perfect Thursday night to me.
Since we’re in a thread about moral life choices... soda is a big reason we have exorbitant healthcare prices. It causes diabetes, cancer and heart disease. It’s worse than alcohol or cigarettes. Don’t drink soda. Eat less sugar.
Wtf are cheese nips? And Pepsi?? Are you for real?
You most certainly do not have your life in order drinking Pepsi and eating whatever the fuck "cheese nips" are...
I'll tell you what cheese nips are: less salty than you.
The ones who eat in bed only eat junk food in bed. Nobody who eats in bed has his/her life in order.
I'll have you know I ate apples and cheese, peas and tuna, and corn on the cob ALL IN BED. Check and mate.
That's because you're paralyzed.
Only a sith deals an absolute
Bullllshit. Your life is never going to be in order. Life is chaotic. This is an excuse to avoid your responsibility for engaging in society.
I'm a depressed and anxious fuck, but I still volunteer on the weekend because I can make my community better by doing it.
yuuuup
"Oh that man is raping someone, but who am I to judge!"
shrugs, walks away
What's more - MLK was having affairs. Flawed people do great things.
In terms of rape, if you don't rape and are against it then you have that room of your house in order. Feel free to stop somebody else. It doesn't mean be perfect. It means know what you're talking about, where you stand, and why before you start judging others and trying to "fix" everybody else.
How can we fix large-scale social issues systemic raciscm that don't have a personal version to master? The whole "don't whine until you have your shit together" just comes off gatekeeper-ish.
Nobody is saying not to have opinions. Just to only try and change things that you will actually make better. Change for the sake of change isn't good.
I have to rewrite the comment that I'm rejecting, for a sanity check:
get your own life in order before first before you go out screaming at society.
I see the whole strawman thing but I think it was a hyperbole that illustrated the flaw with OPs thought process. Flawed people do good work. Don't tell them to stop because they're flawed. I don't know how else to read that comment.
I completely understand what you're saying. But the thing with JP is that a lot of the things he says have a continuation in the conversation that gets left out when you just see a clip or an article. All he's really saying(from the best of my understanding) is that if you want to make a change for the better then awesome. Do that. Just get your shit together first so that when you have the opportunity then you can jump to try and make that change. Basically grow the fuck up before you're already an adult.
I don't get how this person keeps getting invoked when he hasn't been quoted. I'm responding to the reddit comment, not to an intellectual's body of work. It doesn't seem fair to assume that a redditor's single-line comment is actually just one out-of-context idea from an uncredited intellectual.
The whole "sort yourself before you scream at society" thing is a direct reference to him. That's why everybody is talking about him in this thread.
How does systemic racism not have a personal version to master? Systems are made up of individuals.
The systemic racism I'm talking about is like, for example, how there is a difference in mandatory minimum prison sentences between crack and powder cocaine. Not like, a system of 5 people being racist together.
Right, but if nobody agrees to enforce those laws, then they don't exist. If we encourage people to take responsibility for their own political awareness and understanding, perhaps you might see judges start to think 'Hey, wait a second, this is some dodgy shit!'
There have been judges who gave people the mandatory minimum, as required by law, but filled their personal statement with stuff condemning the mandatory minimum. The judges are fully aware of the political implications here. They are, in fact, thinking this is some dodgy shit. And the law still exists. What should they do now?
There are times where systems are more complicated than the sum of the actors.
Judges don't have to enforce laws they don't agree with. Implying otherwise is 'simply following orders'.
Of course complexity can arise from the parts making up the system, but nevertheless, remove those parts and the system is disabled.
That's untrue. The job of being a judge is not to interpret laws as you wish them to be, but to interpret laws in the spirit in which the legislature intended them.
That is literally the job. If you're not willing to do that, then the only ethical code is to not be a judge.
Right, but that really refers to the judge personal views most of the time. The 'spirit' of the legislature is quite a subjective concept.
Also, so what if that's the job? It doesn't matter, do the right thing in the moment.
Right, but that really refers to the judge personal views most of the time. The 'spirit' of the legislature is quite a subjective concept.
No, it never refers to the judge's personal views ever. You might be saying come in that's the way it actually works dude, but dude, it actually isn't.
Also, so what if that's the job? It doesn't matter, do the right thing in the moment.
The right thing is honoring your oath to a system that breaks down completely if everyone decides to start legislating from the bench?
Some people actually take this democracy stuff seriously. You should too.
Wow I don't understand how you could interpret it that way, even if that was hyperbolic. He doesn't mean disregard the rest of the world and only focus on yourself. But if your room or apartment is always a mess, and you can't even manage to keep that clean, how do you expect to change the world? Start fixing immediate issues in your life and you'll see a big overall improvement.
That does not mean disregard someone being raped.
before you go out screaming at society.
That is taking it way to far.
He's not talking about volunteering for your community.
Was waiting for this, thank you!
[deleted]
What about the well-spoken and powerful public statements being made by high schoolers in the wake of this shooting? I wouldn't argue that they need to quiet down.
I think any advice about "screaming at society" has to be more nuanced than this. There is a time to speak out.
[deleted]
I'd agree with that, they don't have a well-articulated plan. They're speaking out about how the issue affects them emotionally - which is actually how public support can get behind an issue. It's really hard to get the majority of America to make fact-based decisions. On the population scale, emotion is a much much more powerful force.
Getting shot at doesn't make you an expert on gun legislation.
Don't have to be an expert to be an advocate. /r/gatekeeping
It does help if you know a smidgen of what you're advocating about.
I guess they can speak very well about their opinions on school shootings then? /r/gatekeeping
How do we go about deciding right and wrong though?
A 20 year old that has clear sense of self, with no job, who has no life experience shouldn't think they can solve societies problems. You sound like a person who is on top of their issues, and you are helping your community, in a direct and tangible way
Hi five from another depressed and anxious non-functional human who volunteers every weekend!
I still volunteer on the weekend because I can make my community better by doing it.
"Raging against the dying of the light" is not what was meant here.
Think something like "young person who hasn't done anything but thinks they know everything wants to reshape the world into their imagined utopia by loudly spewing nonsense at The Establishment". I doubt that's what you're volunteering for, but if I'm wrong let me know.
Yeah, no one's talking about clinical anxiety or depression vs volunteering. More like don't suggest radically different economic systems when you can't stop using payday loans. Get the difference?
Oh I think I get it now, poor people shouldn't have an opinion on politics because obviously they're just doing a bad job in the current system.
I get you are being flippant, but if you can't manage your own finances how can you expect anyone to take you seriously when you pose solutions to someone else's?
Financing=/= Economics.
One is money management, the other is the study on how money works. And as I explained in comments below, just because you're trapped in a cycle of payday loans doesn't mean you're bad at money management. All it takes is something you're not prepared for.
Not my fault you were born poorer than me
Did I say it was? All I did was correct you.
They can have all the opinions they want. If they can't realize the simple truth that if you can't afford to pay back a payday loan, you can't afford to take one out, then they don't have their financial shit in order. So go ahead, have all the opinions on all the subjects you want. Just realize that people will rightfully put ad much stock in your opinion on international economics as they would Jenny McCarthy's opinion on vaccines.
Or, just maybe, people take out loans because of emergencies that they can't help. Also maybe those places that they get the loans for are structured to put people in cycles.
You're still pretty much saying that your opinion is useless if you're poor.
Your opinion on finance IS less valuable. I was paycheck to paycheck and below the poverty line at the same time. I understand how hard money matters can be. Once you learn how money works, suddenly life isn't so hard. Some people are just unlucky and are fucked over, but that's the point of safety nets. Most people who are in debt to predatory lending don't have it as rough as you think. Some are struggling to make payments on houses that are bigger than they need.
First of all, we weren't talking about finance. Of course you shouldn't take money advice from someone who is bad at money management, but you said,
"Just realize that people will rightfully put ad much stock in your opinion on international economics as they would Jenny McCarthy's opinion on vaccines."
Which is a completely different subject.
I was on the receiving end of a fucking by a pay day loan too and I like to think I'm pretty good when it comes to money management. All it takes is for something you're not prepared for to happen and it's a lot harder to prepare for something if you're making a shit wage. I eventually got out of it, but it was a bout of luck that did it.
Not that you're talking to me, but I wanted to contribute a radio story that changed my opinion of payday loan places. Some people rely on them consciously as part of their money management strategy - where having money now can be the difference between the heat being on or not. Payday services are often used by people who are OK at managing money but have a lot to bear. And sure, their financial advice might be bad for you, but not because it's bad. It's the right advice for someone in that situation, not your situation.
It's Petersonian nonsense, a way to prevent people from asking questions or pushing for change.
It is a way to encourage people to fix the part of the world they control before you try to fix the rest of it. It isn't really Peterson, he basically just rephrased a Micheal Jackson song.
I think what is meant by that phrase is that you should improve yourself and your life by fixing the small problems(which you are doing by committing your time to help your community!) around you before you go on attempting to fix big socio-economic problems.
I love this answer. So true!
If volunteering for the community was the topic, but it's not.
Well, that was caustic. I was referring more to /u/BisexualPunchParty's first paragraph.
I have to ask. How was that caustic?
Edit: ok Reddit. If having any opinion other than your own, or even having a basic conversation, is caustic then we are all doomed.
I know. I was referring to their post as a whole.
Having your life in order is not the same as life not being chaotic. Many adults are able to have their life in order to such a degree that those from the outside think everything with their life is perfect. Close friends may know all the chaos they still endure, but strangers know none of it. These people are who should be attempting to change the world, because they clearly know enough about it to not let the ups and downs wreck your emotional state.
That's a lot like saying you should wait until you're able to manage your emotional state flawlessly before trying to change the world for the better. Life is happening right now, and you're changing the world just by being in it, like it or not. The boat's gone. Learn to swim!
Yeah. I dislike this idea of "having your life in order." That sounds like a shit time, anyway -- that would I have nothing I'm working toward.
I think it's the opposite, it's a call to action to get your life in order so you can responsibly engage in society. If you aren't competent to run your own life, I certainly don't want you influencing mine.
I'm a depressed and anxious fuck, but I still volunteer on the weekend because I can make my community better by doing it.
Think about how much more you could do for people if you weren't depressed and anxious? Get your house in order and your ability to make your community better will multiply.
I'm not sure you understand these illnesses very well. There isn't a magic bullet. Most people experiencing anxiety and depression would very much like not to experience that pain. They aren't wallowing for the sake of it.
Think about how much more you could do for people if you weren't depressed and anxious?
Do you want a list of great contributors to society who were chronically depressed, anxious, or both?
Charles Darwin's afflictions would be a good start.
Absolutely no one is saying you can't do great things if you're depressed or anxious. I don't even know where you would have gotten that from.
Think about how much more you could do for people if you weren't depressed and anxious?
The notion that Charles Darwin could have done more. I guess I rejected the idea that everyone with anxiety and depression is unproductive/could be doing more. There is a richer story to these illnesses than that.
There isn't a magic bullet.
...I never claimed there was.
My wife has depression. "wanting" to not experience the pain isn't enough. You have to take affirmative steps to help yourself, and if you don't, you can't expect change.
Do you want a list of great contributors to society who were chronically depressed, anxious, or both?
No, because I never said you can't be successful, even wildly successful, whilst suffering from depression or anxiety. It's crazy that you're the second person to create this strawman.
Maybe if multiple people create a strawman, there's a common message that they're articulating, based in their own experience
Maybe that means that I triggered some emotional response from you and the other user who decided to believe I made an argument I never made.
What a stupid fucking response. I said imagine how much more you could do, and the response is "lots of people have done things with depression", like, where are you even getting this from? It's like telling someone they look nice and having them respond "oh so you think I'm fat and ugly every other day then?!"
There's no excuse for not being able to grasp what I said.
I triggered some emotional response
What a stupid fucking response
Insight. Use it. (Bonus: it will also help you understand what people are trying to tell you.)
You don't have basic reading comprehension, that isn't my problem
hmm...try on that shoe
It’s hard to debate with BeerInMyButt. Brb
I think they mean it more as don't blame society for your problems.
[deleted]
On every level except physical, I am a lobster.
*Cleans my room
So you're saying we should have lobsters clean our rooms for us??
So you're saying lobsters are more important than equal pay?
CATHY!!
You don't?
CATHY!!
This is going to be the best thing I'll read all week lol Jesus you fuckers are good
If you think that joke was good you should check out the podcast Chapo Trap House. They had an entire episode making fun of Jordan Peterson like a week ago.
/r/ChapoTrapHouse
Doesn't he constantly whine about some ambiguous force of marxists he thinks ruins everything though?
It's more a shift in views of the world and how things work he's talking about. Not like there's an inner circle making all of the decisions.
BRB, cleaning room.
The last sentence of Rule 6 in his latest book:
“Set your house in perfect order before you criticize the world.”
Jordan Peterson
Life advice from pseudo-intellectuals.
The man taught at Harvard and is currently at the University of Toronto. I'd say he's a straight up intellectual.
Except he is not. His ideas are some of the most challenged in the scientific community because he makes such lengthy logical leaps. And also, Jared Kushner went to Harvard. His father more or less paid his way into the school. Being a Harvard alum does not equate to inherent brilliance. There are many mitigating factors that allow individuals to attend and matriculate exclusive universities.
First of all, he TAUGHT at Harvard. Maybe you didn’t even read his comment there. Secondly, Jordan Peterson has over 9,000 academic citations for his works in psychology. Making the claim that his ideas are “some of the most challenged in the scientific community” is not just false, it’s a hallmark remark made by those who are completely unfamiliar with the man, his work, and the impact he has had on his field.
I did read his comment. And I am very familiar with him. In fact, I had wrote my thesis on his work and subsequent personality cult. So in a way, you're a data point with which I'm already familiar.
Ahh perfect, a pseudo-intellectual proclaiming real, established, academics like Peterson are the true pseudo-intellectuals simply because you disagree with his rhetoric. May I ask what degree you are in pursuit of? (Considering a thesis on Jordan Peterson is odd to say the least.) I have an odd suspicion already, but hey I’m just a cultist.
Social psychology, which I received my masters in. Now I'm in a biopsych PhD program. What was your suspicion?
Social psych.
Sure it was.
Did you expect me to say Gender Studies or something? We’re making an awful lot of assumptions today, aren’t we?
Did you assume that I would assume that you assumed it was gender studies? You're making a lot of assumptions today.
Don’t know, I’m too busy doing cultist things since you implied anyone that follows Peterson is in a cult. Obviously it’s true though and you’re 100% correct, since, as you stated multiple times in a variety of ways both here and in your post history, “you have a masters degree.” Your appeal to authority without backing any claims you’ve made in the thread is quaint to say the least. (I also find the fact that your masters is in social psych especially entertaining considering it’s the least scientific brand of psychology and you harped on Peterson’s credentials in the scientific community.)
Jesus Christ.
Perhaps you can pay off your student loans by giving speeches about the wide ranging implications of a study you performed that’s not replicable, like those TedX people.
That's so cute. Did your teacher give you an A+ for it??
I received my master's degree for it -- and it paved my way into becoming a PhD candidate in the same department.
Lol it was my masters thesis.
[deleted]
Because I'm not looking to get into a lengthy back and forth argument. It is not my job to enlighten you. I don't care enough about the people who disagree with me on Reddit.
[deleted]
Except I didn't try. I made a general comment about him. I'm not making a fool of myself.
[deleted]
Ok. Me fool. You win, tough guy.
It is not my job to ____ you
Every time
[deleted]
Yes, I am one of those.
Carl Jung made lengthy logical leaps as well. Their ideas are pretty similar.
He considers his ideas the progeny of Carl Jung's philosophy.
You've managed to post here countless times yet haven't made one coherent argument against his ideas.
Lol, because I'm not arguing his ideas. I'm not sure why everyone feels it's my responsibility to prove you wrong.
Because you initiated discussion.
Except I didn't initiate a discussion. A Reddit comment is not an invitation to get into a full-blown argument. It was just that, a comment on Reddit.
No. It’s called a cop-out.
Ok.
What inspired you to continue addressing me? You aren’t talking about anything substantive. There’s literally nothing to discuss.
It's ironic you're taking this position. It's one of the research topics in my thesis.
[deleted]
clinical psychologist, in fact, which is even more impressive
Also involved in a good amount of research, so not just pseudo intellectual, real, actual intellectual
Well, yeah, hence the clinical part
It turns out practicing psychology doesn't make you an authority on political philosophy and media criticism.
But considering his book is about how to be a good person and live a productive, responsibility-filled life, the criticism about his life advice is unwarranted. He may have some wrong political views, but he is dead-on when it comes to feeling fulfilled in life.
Focusing on individualism is sooooo pseudo-intellectual. Don't you know there's no such thing as agency and everything is society's fault??? The way JP rejects intersectional identity obviously subjugates minorities to never ending victimhood. The only solution is to forget individualism and socially construct institutions geared towards the collective.
^^^^/s
The concept of individualism is not the idea on which he harps with circumstantial evidence.
He claims society's deviation from individualism is its greatest source of suffering. He then goes through empirical, anecdotal, and clinical evidence to support is hypothesis and reject collectivism. Does he get some points wrong and exaggerate others? Probably. That doesn't debase his entire argument. Millions of people identify with his rhetoric but have never had anyone articulate the ideas he's espousing in a way quite as he does. His self authoring program has shown to help people work through the issues going on in their lives and set them on a course of fulfilling self responsibility. Which further proves his hypothesis correct.
So its pseudo science even though it has a hypothesis, a defined problem, tested theories, and statistically significant results. Right. Gotcha.
Lol, millions of men identify with him. However, his ideas are the most contested in the scientific community.
You are making sentences without saying anything. All I hear is that unspecified things he says are contested. You can't name a specific thing or even say that thing is false.
his ideas are the most contested in the scientific community
You've been saying this throughout the thread. Which ideas? Who contests them? You cannot profess to be a part of his field and then tell others to do their own research when it's you with the supposed expertise. You should be capable of writing out a quick summary off the top of your head given your familiarity. If you can't do this, then you're not as familiar with the field as you claim and should kindly stfu. Put up or shut up.
However, his ideas are the most contested in the scientific community.
[Citation Needed]
I hear some entitled white man, for sure. Nobody who's struggled to feed their family on minimum wage would be able to choke out this kind of nonsense.
What do you want? A competition over who's had it worse? You don't know the first thing about me, and you're not going to get it.
If I'm going to take advice from somebody it's probably going to be a person that has done well in life vs somebody that hasn't.
[deleted]
I guess maybe not to you apparently. But it is to many others. What do you think it's about?
You gotta love when "entitled white man" is trying to be used to put down an idea. Ironically, this is the kind of identity politics Peterson rails against.
Nobody who's struggled to feed their family on minimum wage would be able to choke out this kind of nonsense.
That's because they went out into the world before cleaning their room. That's his point. Don't go having fucking kids before you're able to provide for yourself (Hint: if you're on minimum wage, you can't)
OK, fine -- nobody who's struggled to get by on their own on minimum wage would believe this bullshit. Not all of us are lucky enough to have a mommy and daddy who will let us stay in the basement forever.
Not sure how any of this is relevant. If you're living in your parents basement, I feel like that's the opposite of having your house in order. You can't even provide for yourself.
So what do you believe in then? I want to hear how people should better society without first bettering themselves.
Everyone accepts the idea in every other context. Get your oxygen mast on before helping someone else-you're no good if you're dead. Same with lifeguards-make sure you can do you, because if you become your own emergency, we now have 2x people drowning and fewer people to help.
I totally agree, and I’m a big believer in Jordan Peterson’s message. But I wanted to get his opinion since he doesn’t agree. Trying to be open-minded, maybe I’m wrong?
I was just agreeing with you that's all
you know thats not a non white exclusive issue right?
No it's true. I'm white, make minimum wage, and "the system" tops up my accounts as part of our "privilege perks program". Seriously, get out of here with that nonsense, u/on_my_lunch_break, you racist monster
Nice work... Putting words in my mouth is a totally legitimate way to argue!
I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood what your complaining about rich white men was all about \s. Just saying that there are plenty of poor of all races who think that a statement like that is ridiculous
your complaining about rich white men was all about
Sorry, what?
Just saying that there are plenty of poor of all races who think that a statement like that is ridiculous
Which statement, exactly? You have yet to accurately portray anything I've said.
I hear some entitled white man, for sure. Nobody who's struggled to feed their family on minimum wage would be able to choke out this kind of nonsense.
There is no misrepresentation or slander that can make you look worse than quoting you directly. Think on why this is not only wrong, but counterproductive
Or maybe you could think on why I might believe what I believe and have a conversation about it instead of just calling me a racist for observing that a certain opinion comes from a position of privilege.
You believe skin color is a factor because you are racist, it's simple.
Everything is about race to some people
Especially the blacks! /s
You know you're putting words in my mouth right?
It's nonsense to think you should have your shit together before telling everyone else to get their shit together?
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LOL yeah, this is literally what I'm saying, you're not putting words in my mouth at all...
He really pissed off a lot of people. Wonder how much of it is projection.
ya, regardless of whether that dude is right, he comes across as so condescending smh.
Write down the advice that's good, then read it in your own, not condescending voice. That way you get the advice but delivered in a way you like.
Lol. Fuck, this comment throws so much nuanced shade. I love it.
Any shade was unintentional. As a Floridian, I want to keep any and all shade to myself.
‘smh’ is a great signal.
The dog whistle of a butthurt 18-28 year old
I think r/gatekeeping would like a word. Smh
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Can I get some vocal fries with that smh?
you probably dislike it because it's not sugar-coated or easy to swallow. forget about what you think the delivery is and focus on what you think of the message
Ok hold up. He could at least articulate how he is cognizant of how it is heard. He says don't worry about out there until you've made your bed. Yes but that paints people into corners and makes puts the onus on them to justify why they should be concernwd about bigger issues. It's just overly dismissive imo. I REALLY think it's a good point. It's just whenever I hear him make it, he just could present it so much better. It's like he is talking to the people that want to rant about sjws, not actually trying to talk to and change the minds of these people.
Except he doesn't ever say "don't worry about out there until you've made your bed." What he says is, essentially, "don't try to fix the problems of the world before you address the problems in your life."
He spends a lot of time and energy trying to get people to hear what he's actually saying on this point, like in this clip, and the problem isn't his phrasing, it's that most people who dislike him aren't actually listening to what he's saying
Can you explain how what I said is different ? I've watched a lot of his clips
He's not telling people not to be concerned about larger things, or even not to participate in things that they think make a difference in the world. What he's saying is that if you want to change the world, the first step to doing that is to change yourself into someone who actually has a decent chance of making a positive impact.
Yes I got that. What I'm saying is that puts people Ina tough spot. You can always be critiqued that your life isn't put together enough. It is a very destabilizing criticism. It's like how saying fake news makes it possible to hear any news and always have to deal with being called fake. I'm not saying he's wrong. He just could recognize the argumentative move he is making a bit better. It's not an understanding approach, its combative. And I think it's to his loss ok the end. Because people tired with these "sjws" or whatever will hear it and simply critique the idea of the person and their validity without properly recognizing what they are trying to say
I think you're projecting a bit.
Interested if you could give more explanation to this
Getting your life together before helping others isn't innately dismissive, and doesn't even preclude helping others. It simply suggests that if you are actually capable of helping others once your life is in order, that you will be better equipped to do so if you get your life in order and leverage the freedom that brings into helping people, rather than running yourself ragged in the process, reducing your ability to help people. And if you can't get your life in order(that's not to say perfect, but in order) you don't really have any 'left over' to get into higher order issues, you're hurting yourself and therefore you're drawing from the pool of people who can help the 'others' you care about to help get your life together, too.
It's one of the first things you learn in first responder training: you can't save someone's life if you're dead. If you really want to save other people's lives, be in the best position you can be, and use that to save people's lives. For life saving that means being physically fit, vigilant, having the necessary skills in first aid and trauma care, knowing how to not kill someone you're trying to help, not trying too hard to be a hero.
As a life motto though it's managing your life so that the things you face are leveraged to the best conditions you can get them so that you have the best ability you can to help other people. Be financially stable so that you can contribute to activism that makes the most difference. Have your time managed so that you can offer what you can afford of it through volunteering, or hustling your own non-profit or political party or social change, etc.
No matter what you're dealing with, it's sound advice, you don't need to justify having things outside of yourself, because it's specifically designed to make you the most capable you can be of giving what you can of your excess(time, money, whatever) to those things.
So when you hear 'you can't help others until you're in a position where what you can offer others is help' as something you need to respond to as "but I can help others" you're either missing the point, or you're deflecting from doing the actual work to better yourself and shouldering the responsibility to get better yourself so that you have more ability to help others.
Ok thanks. Ya I really get what you're saying. I basically agree. I just here how he is used, and how he is derisive of these people and it seems to be a miscommunication. Or perhaps a better word is misrecognition. I know he's an incredibly smart person. Ha study of pathologies like nazism is fascinating. As to the point, I just think he could be more strategic with messaging. This isn't to say lie or abandon truth. But just reconcile how is viewed by the other side. But also, all these angry people need to listen better. Whatever, at the end of the day I'm fine. I just wish people could better discussion the phenomenon of "Jordan Peterson". Because at the end of the day, he really shouldn't be controversial. I hate those YouTube title like "jp shuts down liberal reporter and such"
There definitely are people who misrepresent Jordan Peterson. He's ideologically Center-Left in Canadian politics, which is a little further left than the Democratic party in America. He's no conservative, although he respects honest conservative thought, and believes it has it's place. You likely wouldn't get that impression if you listened to the various characterizations of him, however. People mistake his critique of rhetoric to be a disagreement with moderate progressive policy, and that's only true insofar as moderate progressive policy has been invaded with identity politics.
I think he could do a lot of a better job in communicating this. He comes across as flirting with the alt right and he needs to be clearer with that. In a perfect world he shouldn't have to but the reality is that he is appropriated and he needs to distance himself better. Taking photos with the Pepe flag than not connecting the dots of the implication or playing coy is a disservice to his message
He openly says he opposes both the far left and the far right fairly often, and he's only really an 'ally' of the far right in free speech arguments recently insofar as he does believe that while you have a right to be offended that is not grounds to limit someone's right to free speech. He supports none of the far or 'alt' right's politics, he simply believes in free speech.
Painting him as 'associating with the far or alt right' isn't really founded based on anything he himself says. He outright says he disagrees with them, a lot, but he supports their right to free speech. Given that the far left response to far right speaking engagements at universities has been so hostile it's very easy for someone who supports free speech to defend the rights of reprehensible people, but people not understanding that nuance isn't the fault of Mr Peterson, he openly says he disagrees with both Nazis and their sympathizers as well as hardline left communists and their sympathizers.
I see what your saying. I guess I'm just sad in how much his message is subject to greater political happenings and he ends up being a puppet by some. Obviously very much not so for others
I wouldn't say he's a puppet. That implies hes propped up by other people for their cause without agency, which I don't think is the case. He speaks for himself to anyone that will listen. He is misconstrued by people, but if you follow him and what he says himself its very clear who he is. Is it his fault if people are lying about who he is to misconstrue him? I wouldn't say so. You can listen to he himself speak about who he is and what he thinks and how he got to that opinion based on what evidence and it's rarely to the benefit of any mainstream movement except perhaps centrism. Even then he's not exactly in favor of centrism, just compromise and less radicalization, finding a way to tone down the radical elements of both sides, not necessarily splitting the middle between the two.
Ya well he is used. Yes ?
fair enough. i was concerned you were being dismissive of his message over how he said, to which I agree he could refine
Whatever, this is the Internet and the discussion will just get reduced to pro/anti a distorted view of Peterson
I think you're kind of proving his point. If he could do it so much better, why aren't you doing that? The man is making 60-100k monthly on donations.
Which makes you think... why is he doing it? I never said I could do it better
Why is he doing what?
If your goal is to say the ideas are bad because he's being paid for them, well, that might be the most absurd thing I've ever heard. Do you think iPhones are bad because Apple makes money off them? Or speeches by Obama are bad because he's paid for them? If you're great at something, or you have a great idea, you get to charge for it.
I just mean that taking all these donation could have an impact on his actions ? Sorry I agree that it likely doesn't change anything. I'm just a bit skeptical. Let me reiterate, I find him a really compelling person and incredibly articulate. But he also seems to be resistant to consider how he is interpreted. I just wish he would extend more olive branches more often. Whether he likes it or not, he is used in a greater dialectic in current politics and when inaccurately done so, it can be harmful.
Hey man, I’m a lefty minded guy who thinks Jordan Peterson is one of the most important people in contemporary society, and someone who has helped me get my life together. I just wanted to say I agree that he sometimes rails against people on the other side a bit much which might negatively affect how much positive influence his message can achieve. Anyway, I really liked your tone throughout this conversation and wanted to let you know. No one is perfect, and Jordan is no different, and it’s ok to try and touch up a good message to be even better. And I say that as someone who would consider it among the highest honors to be able to speak with him.
I don't think anything of it. I get much more nervous about people who don't or can't make money off what they do.
No, he isn't trying to change their minds. Thats not his audience. His appeal is that he can in a very articulate and educated way explain the deep objections many people have to leftist thinking. He puts a voice to a conclusion that many moderates have arrived at on their own. The left is already loud enough. They drown out all other voices, with the exception of those rabid and far enough on the right to scream just as loud. If you think Jordan Peterson is dismissive, imagine how literally every moderate and conservative feels when some leftist starts calling Trump voters bigots.
Your lack of self awareness is painful.
Hmmmm I'm very interested in your answer. Could you expand more about my lack of self awareness ?
essentially, everything comes across as condescending when you actually need talked-down to
Hmmm I'm not sure about that. I think he's a fine dude. He just could frame things in a more conciliatory manner. And this isn't me thinking what he says is bad or should be censored. He just seems to be suborning unwilling to consider how other disciplines have to reconcile his implications.
what you think of the message
The message is crap. We're living in a society where social problems are major obstacles to many millions of people getting their life in order. Pretending otherwise is disingenuous.
Or maybe you're living in a reality where you've been fed this bullshit idea that everyone is out to prey on poor people and them being poor couldn't possibly be because of poor life decisions?
LOL, get back to me when you're out of college, kiddo
Lol you sure showed me! Great rebuttal 10/10 would read again!
If you want a quality rebuttal, try coming up with a quality argument next time.
Yes because "poor people are oppressed and that's why they're poor" is extremely deep intellectualism
It's trivially easy to make other people's points sound stupid when you completely remove all nuance and then pretend they said something different from what they actually said.
Yes I'm certain the obstacles to which you were referring include problems the upper class face daily
Sorry, do you have an argument to make? All I see is you trying your very hardest to miss the point.
I haven't missed the point, I made my point already. I think "socio-economic" factors aren't nearly as big a problem as you think they are. You told me to get back to you when I "get out of college", assuming I haven't already and that I'm not educated. I don't have to prescribe myself to your level of indoctrination to be considered educated. Just parroting what you learned in ethnic studies doesn't make you educated, I mean fuck these aren't even your opinions they're the opinions of your professors.
I think "socio-economic" factors aren't nearly as big a problem as you think they are.
I think you pretty clearly haven't got a clue how the real world works for people who were born into poverty.
Just parroting what you learned in ethnic studies
WTF are you even talking about now...?
Adult fully out of college here. He has a really good point. If you accept the idea, Peterson's main idea, that you're going to have profound struggle and tragedy in your life, and the difference between success is really whether you choose to grab your cross and "carry it up the damn hill" as Peterson would say, then it's accurate. If you choose "woe is me, who will help me overcome the obstacles society has placed in front of me", life isn't going to go well for you.
life is suffering. our society hasn't changed that. you have a responsibility to yourself and ideally those around you to minimize unnecessary pain. anything else is wallowing in your own filth and pity
you have a responsibility to yourself and ideally those around you to minimize unnecessary pain
Exactly. And in many cases (for example, the case in which the minimum wage is nowhere close to a living wage), the best way to make that happen is to engage in social activism to make change happen at a social level rather than a personal one. Which means you have a responsibility to yourself and those around you to make this world a better place -- not just your tiny corner of it. Anything else is wallowing in your own filth and pity.
it starts with you. the entire idea is get yourself in order before you try and help others. if you try to change things before you can even change yourself you're more likely to fuck shit up than do good
The point of the other guy is that lots of people aren't in a bad place because they aren't able to change themselves, but because the socio-economic context they live in makes it nearly impossible for them do so.
if you think you are so low down that you cant make change then you're right. nearly everyone is capable of bettering their situation if they try
In marginal ways, yes, but if you're born into a poor family, have no access to decent education and still have to provide for a family, your options are very very limited.
I see this argument all the time and always wonder, why say options/opportunities are limited and not non-existent? It always begs the follow up question of "why don't they start with those few options/opportunities until they build up more?"
Hell, since we are talking Jordan Peterson here is a video on this kind of topic https://youtu.be/xY48e1oDXSU
Peterson is talking about his audience, his selfhelp shtick doesn't even come close to being universal. Having an option might mean that you can just provide for your family, not that you can earn enough to actually improve your living conditions.
The idea is simply that everyone can do a little more each day that will help in the long run. He said at one point, probably not in this video, that opportunity grows and shrinks exponentially, that as you start making good on a few opportunities in your life many more start to become available to you. That is universal, the problem most people have is it isn't fast enough for them so they ignor the smaller opportunities and complain that the big ones never show.
That isn't universal, there's no data to support that whatsoever. It's just common sense bullshit, very convincingly said by a guy who is obviously a great rhetorician.
You're talking from the point of view from someone who isn't practically disadvantaged because of the context he's living in. You can't justify those views when you're talking about people who actually are disadvantaged. I understand the idea, really, but it just isn't universal. It might apply to you, and it might even apply to a lot of people, but it does not apply to everyone, and it isn't even close.
That isn't universal, there's no data to support that whatsoever. It's just common sense bullshit, very convincingly said by a guy who is obviously a great rhetorician.
Can you prove it isn't universal? Or is it just a claim not to be?
You're talking from the point of view from someone who isn't practically disadvantaged because of the context he's living in.
Thats an assumption on your part and one that does not factor in if I have ever been disadvantaged before or not.
You can't justify those views when you're talking about people who actually are disadvantaged.
Again, who is to say I am not or have never been disadvantaged?
I understand the idea, really, but it just isn't universal. It might apply to you, and it might even apply to a lot of people, but it does not apply to everyone, and it isn't even close.
Youd have a really hard time proving that.
Can you prove it isn't universal? Or is it just a claim not to be?
Proof of burden is on the person who makes a claim, not on the one who contests it.
And proving that really isn't hard, over 10% of people are immediately fucked because they live in extreme poverty (e.g. on less than 2 dollars a day) and extreme poverty obviously isn't the only reason why people wouldn't be able to "get their shit together".
Thats an assumption on your part and one that does not factor in if I have ever been disadvantaged before or not.
I'm not saying that you weren't disadvantaged, just that your talking points only apply to someone that isn't.
Proof of burden is on the person who makes a claim, not on the one who contests it.
Yes, and as of our discussion you are the initial provider of the claim.
And proving that really isn't hard, over 10% of people are immediately fucked because they live in extreme poverty (e.g. on less than 2 dollars a day) and extreme poverty obviously isn't the only reason why people wouldn't be able to "get their shit together".
Would you say these people have 0 opportunities?
I'm not saying that you weren't disadvantaged, just that your talking points only apply to someone that isn't.
Disadvantage =/= no opportunities, that is the only point I need rely on.
Agitating for social change is good, but how effective are you going to be at it if you don't have your shit together?
You have to make the most of whatever you have in order to make the most impact you can on the world. If you are, cool, the advice to 'make sure you have your shit together' isn't for you. Yours is together. Good. Now you can help other people get their shit together and maybe work towards reducing the amount of shit.
I literally made as single point and you didn't address it. 'Making sure you have your shit together' is only possible when you have the financial freedom and the necessary knowledge and skills to do so, and for a lot of people that just isn't the case.
Everyone has the ability to do the best they can with what they have. What 'their best' is will differ, but everyone is capable of doing their best. That's what getting your shit together means.
If your best is not enough, congratulations, you're one of the people who a) needs to really focus on it because its not going to go away and b) is someone who should be helped once other people have their shit together.
There is nothing wrong with this advice. It's a basic starting point. It's not suggesting that the world will get fixed over night and that everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. It's saying that you can't help someone else pull themselves up if you're not already pulled up yourself. And if you're not pulled up yourself you've really got it cut out for you to keep yourself from falling further behind until someone can help you.
That's the baseline. From there we work upwards with social changes, as the people who are capable of giving a little bit extra because they have their lives together start helping others.
I appreciate your answer, but you're still just arguing your own point. I'd appreciate it if you'd adress mine.
If you are working in a sweatshop or do some other exploitative job, and have to take care of your family for the rest of your day, that is effectively 'the best you can do'. This shouldn't disallow you to engage in social activisim or to speak out against that exploitation on the rare occassion that you can.
This shouldn't disallow you to engage in social activisim
It doesn't, and nowhere did I say that it does. But if you don't have a way to feed your family next week, you really need to be focused on finding a way to feed your family next week. Otherwise your family is going to be starving, and then you and yours are going to be taking food that, if you could find a solution, could go to other people who can't find a way to feed their family and are in a worse position than you. Plus, if you can't eat, you can't agitate for social change very well.
If your life is handled, and you have left over time, money, energy to agitate for social change, by all means. If your life is not handled, and you're going to starve, get sick, lose your house, lose your job, you have really big immediate problems you need to focus on, and if you don't focus on them, you won't be around very long to tell other people to focus on them too.
I completely agree, the problem is just that a lot of jobs allow you to do that and just that, survive. I think the whole "getting your shit together" shtick implies something else than just making ends meet.
I think the whole "getting your shit together" shtick implies something else than just making ends meet.
That's called 'projecting'.
If the most 'together' your shit can get is just scraping by, that's still the best you can do, and you're in the best position you can be by being in that position rather than not even there.
a lot of jobs allow you to do that and just that, survive.
Definitely don't take time off from surviving, in that case, then, right? It's a lot easier to pull a surviving person into thriving than it is to pull a dying person back into surviving and then up into thriving.
How meaningful is your advice for someone who can barely survive though? It's not like he wouldn't try to survive if JP wouldn't have told him to "clean his room", right? Point is that some people are effectively stuck in 'surviving' and no matter how much you'd tell those people to take every opportunity that comes to them, only real society-wide change could actually achieve something
The advice to someone who can barely survive is "keep your head above water, we're coming to help, how can we help?"
The advice to someone who is surviving just fine is "be as efficient as you can so you have more to offer those who need help."
Jordan Peterson's advice to "clean your room" isn't to starving parents, it's to college kids who lack direction. They're surviving just fine, but being horribly inefficient in being powerful change causers. He's not in the ghetto telling them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. He's in the college classroom saying 'your bootstraps are already most of the way pulled up, keep them that way so you can do something meaningful with them.'
The advice works for both groups, but the language is directed explicitly not at the people you claim to be defending.
I agree, however Peterson doesn't make that distinction, he presents it as some kind of universal rule, supposedly rooted in psychology.
And for most people who barely survive, no help is coming. Which is why everyone should try to criticize and change society.
This is unadulterated horse shit. Anyone can succeed to the level of comfort in this country if they dedicate themselves to it. There are no socio-economic factors so significant that you can't get to a comfortable existence.
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know these issues were only relevant in the United States. And even then, a teenager born into a poor family, with no safety net, education that got cut into oblivion, with a kid at a way too early age (which happens really often and is more complicated than muh personal responsibility) has to work. And that means getting a shitty job because of a lack of education, which means getting paid a shitty salary, which means not being able to get more education, which means that you're effectively stuck. I don't think that's what you call a comfortable existence. Not to mention all the people living in the US with psychiatric problems, or with chronic diseases and shitty healthcares etc.
So you basically described my father to a T there and he did pretty well getting himself and me to a comfortable life.
He was the youngest of 9 to a single mother living in the projects in Kansas City, Missouri. Never graduated highschool. Had me when he was still living on food stamps. Now he owns a nice 2 story house and goes on trips around the country or to Mexico fairly often.
Anecdotal evidence. Yes some people beat the odds, that doesn't mean that the odds don't exist, and that other people work as hard as your father did, but are just plain unlucky.
These people beat the odds by making use of any and all opportunities they do have, even if they dont like them, until they reach a comfortable place. Luck will only speed up or slow down a person that actually wants to improve their living situation.
Just saying that they have opportunities doesn't actually make it so. Beating the odds works for some people yes, but there are still a lot of people who do not manage to beat them, and it isn't just because they don't work hard enough or aren't grasping every opportunity. Tell me what opportunities look like for a homeless guy with psychiatric disorder, or to a sweatshop worker with 3 kids and sick parents.
Just saying that they have opportunities doesn't actually make it so.
Would you say these people have 0 opportunities then?
Beating the odds works for some people yes, but there are still a lot of people who do not manage to beat them, and it isn't just because they don't work hard enough or aren't grasping every opportunity.
There is an overabundance of assumption here. The most prevelent being that these people you are talking about are assumed to have made every right choice and used all opportunities. You are arguing that these people are perfect yet still in a bad position. Which is a much harder argument to make then mine, which is, they arn't perfect, they missed opportunities of their own accord, and thats why they are where they are.
Tell me what opportunities look like for a homeless guy with psychiatric disorder, or to a sweatshop worker with 3 kids and sick parents.
Homeless guy: work a shitty job
Sweatshop worker: keep working while looking for a better/easier way to earn the same or more.
By your logic both should commit suicide cuz their lives can't get any better.
Lol, homeless people with psychiatric disorders aren't just able to get a shitty job, if you aren't able to comprehend that any discussion on these kind of problems becomes useless. And you assume that opportunities will eventually come, but a sweatshop worker might never find a better/easier way to earn the same or more, just because that job might be the best paid job he can find and because of it he doesn't have any funds to do anything else. I'm gonna ask my question again, what does an opportunity actually look like for those kind of people?
Lol, homeless people with psychiatric disorders aren't just able to get a shitty job, if you aren't able to comprehend that any discussion on these kind of problems becomes useless.
You are highly disingenuous to make a premise devoid of context or nuance and then try to belittle me and my equally broad and unnuanced answer. Im only working with what you provide here, you want better provide better.
And you assume that opportunities will eventually come, but a sweatshop worker might never find a better/easier way to earn the same or more, just because that job might be the best paid job he can find and because of it he doesn't have any funds to do anything else.
So again, you're saying that person has 0 opportunity? Your argument hinges on that being the case, all I need is prove there is 1 over any amount of reasonable time.
I'm gonna ask my question again, what does an opportunity actually look like for those kind of people?
Your question is once again devoid of any nuance or context, as such my answer remains unaltered.
which happens really often and is more complicated than muh personal responsibility
It really isn't. It's like smoking cigarettes. We all know they're bad for us, we all know they're addictive. If you start smoking and end up addicted, that's really on you. We all know how babies are made, we all know sex can result in pregnancy. If you have a baby, that's on you.
which means that you're effectively stuck.
I've never seen people who work hard actually get stuck like this.
If you're born into a community where teen pregnancy is prevalent and where protection is frowned upon then that just isn't as obvious as you make it seem. Life isn't a string of independent, rational decisions.
And holy shit, you've never seen people who work hard actually get stuck? I guess sweatshop workers are just a bunch of lazy fucks. Same for people who work in lousy paid manufacturing or logistic jobs or people who get laid off at a late age because of shitty company management, right?
I understand that the whole personal responsibility shtick works for you, but that doesn't mean that it's a universal truth and works for everyone.
If you're born into a community where teen pregnancy is prevalent and where protection is frowned upon then that just isn't as obvious as you make it seem. Life isn't a string of independent, rational decisions.
We are all independent thinkers. We all have access to information. If you choose not to use protection, which everyone knows you're supposed to, that's 100% on you, I don't care if your "community" "frowns upon protection"
I guess sweatshop workers are just a bunch of lazy fucks.
Yeah. Except sweatshops don't really exist here. But yeah, sweatshop workers generally don't work very hard. That's why they work there.
. Same for people who work in lousy paid manufacturing or logistic jobs
I guess? I have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Manu jobs around here are like golden tickets that pay $17+/hr and overtime, which is enough to be very comfortable on.
I understand that the whole personal responsibility shtick works for you, but that doesn't mean that it's a universal truth and works for everyone.
I never said it did work for me.
Damn man, you're just being dense now.
I can understand that you think that we're all independent thinkers, though I don't agree with it at all. You can't explain a social phenomena through that logic at all. Thinking is inherently a social activity, you think in society through ideas that aren't just products of your own mind.
But "sweatshop workers generally don't work very hard" is a pretty disgusting thing to say. There are a legio of reports on working conditions in sweatshops, people are working 12 hours and more for a wage that's barely enough to buy food for their families. Not working hard enough isn't an issue there. Manufacturing jobs very often pay less than that, depending on the company and the industry ofcourse.
To your last point, why the fuck are you even arguing for it if you yourself are unable to take responsibility?
And lastly if you want to have a serious discussion try addressing people's other points too.
There are a legio of reports on working conditions in sweatshops, people are working 12 hours and more for a wage that's barely enough to buy food for their families.
Working a lot of hourse is in NO WAY indicative of working hard. I can work 12 hours and have my boss raving mad because my work product sucks or productivity is bad. Just showing up to a place and working a lot doesnt mean you're working hard, in the commonly understood way of working hard.
What the fuck are you on about, "the commonly understood way of working hard"? Seriously, explain to me what you believe that would be. If you work 12 or 14 hours a day at a sweatshop, sewing almost constantly, coming home fucking exhausted and still having to take care of your family then you're working hard.
Okay so again, sweatshops like that don't fucking exist here. But, to answer your question: picture two different landscapers. Both work 12 hour days in the sun cutting grass. One goes the normal pace, maybe a little slower. It's difficult work, and he's sweating and just trying to get through the day. He gets 10 lawns done, and goes home tired and sweating. 2 customers call to complain that he missed areas of their lawns.
The other guy works the same hours, but works fast and pays attention, and wears a smile. He double checks before leaving that he didn't miss anything, then he hustles to the next place. He's sweating, it's difficult work, and he goes home tired. Except he did 14 lawns and no one complained.
Both are working strenuous jobs, one is working hard, one is not.
Again, why the fuck should we only be talking about the USA? Why should it matter that sweatshops don't exist here. Your example only works because you make those landscapers independent workers. If you work in a sweatshop, or any shitty underpaid factory or even service job, your whole hard work shtick just doesn't apply.
Because this is Reddit?
In my example, they all work for the same company
Reddit isn't restricted to the US, and we're talking about social problems, which aren't restricted to the US either.
If they'd be working for the same company the guy who 'actually' works hard might still be exploited, his hard work wouldn't change anything about him being underpaid and unable to do anything more than provide for his family.
Who said he was underpaid? That guy is the one that gets promoted to manager or foreman or goes to better employment.
How hard is it to understand that some people are actually being exploited by their employers and that no amount of hard work would change anything about that. This guy might just stay in that position for the rest of his life.
I never said no one is exploited. If you produce value you begin to have options. Fuck, I've had three job offers this year and I'm not looking for a job. If you work hard success follows but most people do not work hard and don't want to.
This is not how life works for everyone. You're trying to claim universality for something that simply isn't as simple as that.
Someone who is uneducated, because of external causes, will not just get offered jobs out of the blue. And someone who works in a sweatshop can work as hard as he can, at the end of the day he's still stuck. Yes he produces value, but he gets just enough of that value to feed his family, not to start getting more options. If you want to be succesful hard work will definitely work in your favor, but having luck - by being born into a certain context, by knowing the right people, by not having to provide for a large family (which might include your parents), etc. - is just as, if not more, important.
it's too late, "on_my_lunch_break" is already way ahead of the game, personally rescuing the disenfranchised masses by engaging in impactful social activism on Reddit political boards
glad someone is finally taking some personal responsibility
ye idk man. i'm not by any means a very optimistic person but a lot of people here seem very keen on embracing whatever hole they are in or think they are in
They're waiting on you to stop wallowing in your own filth and pity and take some personal responsibility for their situation
while you were busy making your tiny corner of the world a better place the rest of the world went to shit because you weren't tweeting about it enough and now minimum wage jobs dont pay well enough and how will i economy when the babyboomers take all the bankcorporationsbenefitsandtimesupstopkillingourkidstransrights trumplobstersmybodymychoice#metoo#yoloandboopity-boppity bibbly-boo
Haha, dude, Peterson's "work" is sugarcoated to be easy to swallow by people like you.
"DAE think feminists are ruining civilization."
Yeah I bet you had trouble accepting that.
ok
Typical transgender neo-Marxist. 😋
Slow down there Dr. Peterson
Genuine Question: Do you mean this to apply to gay rights, #MeToo, and/or Black Lives Matter as well or does this only apply to movements you might disagree with?
Applies to all of the movements. Except of course, "taking our country back"
Activism can be part of the first part, though. Activism is an essential act of conscience in today's world.
That's basically the equivalent of saying, "Never try to work on society," or, "Only outwardly perfect people, who perfectly fit into society, should be able to criticize society."
I think it's more a critique of slactivism. It's easy to criticize but hard to come up with solutions.
So it’s more that you’re annoyed people are complaining about a problem but haven’t created a solution to it before complaining?
Complaining about a minor problem that is actually better than the alternative. Usually.
Such as?
People that bitch about their boss/upper management, but then get in that position and suck at it.
Okay, so it’s people who suck at doing what they’re complaining about? How does that relate to complaining about society?
It's relatable to any situation where there is a power structure.
I’m just trying to understand what your criteria are for allowing people to make social commentary and you are being very vague about why you think some people don’t have a right to complain. Can you explain to me?
I'm more concerned about using that advice for myself. I just find it would be useful for others too.
Yet you still won’t explain your criteria.
It's not like that. At least not with me. It's not quantified. It's just a reminder to be diligent about yourself as an individual so you can have the best impact on the outside world.
What is just a reminder to be diligent?
Telling myself to sort myself out.
Oh, so it’s just for you not for other people?
It's for whoever agrees with it.
Okay but I still don’t know what the criteria are for using your system. How do I decide if I’m allowed to complain?
Anybody can complain.
That’s not what you were saying earlier, what made you change your mind?
Which comment?
Is that not what you’ve been arguing for this entire time?
Copy and paste where I said there was an outline or deciding factor on who should be allowed to have a voice.
Explain to me what you’ve been arguing about this whole time. I realize you are not the OP and you have been arguing as though you agreed with his position.
My point is the personal responsibility of being your best before you criticize others, or worse, before you change things for the worse. Not that there should be rules in place keeping people restrained.
Isn’t that a rule that they should be their best before criticizing?
At the risk of invoking him, I'm assuming you mean JP's rules?
You said there were no rules right after making a rule. That’s what I’m talking about.
When did I use the word "rule"?
My point is the personal responsibility of being your best before you criticize others, or worse, before you change things for the worse. Not that there should be rules in place keeping people restrained.
You’re implying that if people don’t have their affairs in order they can’t complain about things when you say “the personal responsibility of being your best.” As if everyone isn’t already doing the best they can already. Who is this responsibility for exactly? Who are these people you think aren’t trying to be their best?
I absolutley believe most people aren't doing their best when their own selves are concerned. And that they aren't being honest with themselves about it.
And I don't think this "rule", as you seem to want to call it, is for certain groups of people. It's just good advice for individuals.
Why do you believe people aren’t doing their best? What evidence do you have to suggest that? Why do you think people are dishonest with themselves? So it’s just advice then, not something you’d ever enforce or support being enforced on anyone else?
That's based on myself and the people I've gotten to know in life.
And no, of course I would never enforce something like that.
Are you always vague when people ask for you to explain your reasons for holding a certain position or belief? I can see this is going nowhere so have a nice life.
What, specifically, have I been vague about?
Your reasoning.
My reasoning for what specifically?
I said I’m done with you. It’s obvious now you’re just a troll.
Later bucko.
Haha, keep trying
I think what you're looking for is someone who is claiming that certain people should be silenced. Or someone who has a sense of superiority. And you're bored that I'm not him.
To some extent, yes. I think for a lot of people who complain loudest, that's the totality of their effort to fix a problem.
It's easy to be a critic.
So you think people aren’t allowed to complain unless they have already thought of a solution, or at least done something else besides complain. Why?
Because actions speak louder than words. I have very little time for complainers.
So it’s because you don’t like people who complain with no solution. That isn’t a good reason to deny someone the right to complain, sorry.
All I'm saying is complaining isn't fixing anything. That's why nobody likes complainers. Of course you have the right. Just as I have the right to not take you seriously.
Pointing out a problem is the first step to fixing it; yet you would have those people be silent unless they know how, or are actively working, to fix it. How does that make sense? What about people who are unable to do anything to fix a problem other than complain? Should they be silent or not taken seriously?
People who are unable to do anything except complain are people I exclude from my life whenever possible.
So what are you doing to fix the “problem” of people complaining... besides complaining about it on the Internet?
Edit: you also didn’t answer my question.
There's a reason society has developed as it has over the last 10,000 years...
Generally speaking, those who are outwardly perfect are less likely to pursue radical ideas that will destabilize society and put general welfare at risk.
Stable societies put general welfare at risk all the time. One-party or two-party dictatorships and monarchies are stable but they're not good for anyone. People who are comfortable and elevated above others have no incentive to improve the world.
You are mistaking stable societies for stable governments. China is a stable government, not a stable society. America is both.
No it isn't.
It really isn't, but it is a good 3rd grade reading of it
Spoken like someone who's lucky enough to have never encountered any social obstacles to getting their life in order.
Seriously poor people, get a job and do something with your life before you go protesting Wall Street. ^^/s
Absolute horse shit.
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you interpreted that comment into a form you agreed with, then you agreed with it.
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who is peterson
Jordan B. Peterson.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8_gUmt0k8o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBR5v89L6gk
ah I forgot I had in fact peered into that rabbit hole before
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I didn't disagree. Where did I disagree?
That’s kind of gatekeeping isn’t it? Why should someone not be allowed to point out societal problems just because they have personal problems? Almost no one would meet your criteria for being allowed to “scream at society” because everyone has problems in their own life.
What if society is largely to blame for my life being out of order?
In what specific way has society wronged you?
Perhaps by decades of chipping away at working-class institutions, privatizing necessary social services, denying health care, refusing to set a livable minimum wage, offering tax breaks to companies that don't offer benefits to workers, and throwing my tax dollars at wars I don't support. Among other things.
Okay, but besides all that what has society done?
/s
You should be able to put your life in order despite these. It can hardly get better than how we have it in the 21st century.
You should be able to put your life in order despite these
People are working longer and more productively than ever before, yet their wages have stagnated while companies have cut benefits to save even more money. That makes it a hell of a lot harder to "get your life together," whatever that means. You can be totally organized, healthy and responsible, and still struggle to pay rent.
It can hardly get better than how we have it in the 21st century.
We could, you know, eradicate poverty and homelessness. It's not like we don't have the means to guarantee basic necessities to everyone in the richest country in the history of the world.
Well life is a struggle so being organized, virtuous, responsible and compassionate will make life worth living despite the hardship. People have had it much more harder than modern so it is an exaggeration and perhaps resentful to imply that we have it worse than "ever before". You can't eradicate homelessness- just look at Britain. They offer free housing and social security yet there are still homeless people roaming around. And no, poverty can never be eradicated as people will invariably make bad decisions that will send them back to poverty even if they government provides them with an income. You seem to want a utopia.
Well life is a struggle so being organized, virtuous, responsible and compassionate will make life worth living despite the hardship.
It doesn't have to be a struggle, though. We can make it easier on ourselves and each other if we had the political will.
People have had it much more harder than modern so it is an exaggeration and perhaps resentful to imply that we have it worse than "ever before".
I never said we had it worse than ever before – I'm just saying that with all our wealth and technology, we should be doing better. There's no reason we should have poverty.
You can't eradicate homelessness- just look at Britain. They offer free housing and social security yet there are still homeless people roaming around.
Britain most certainly does not have free housing. That said, the Soviet Union had no homelessness – it was certainly an undesirably authoritarian system, and I'm not advocating that we adopt it, but they at least made it a priority to provide for all their citizens.
And no, poverty can never be eradicated as people will invariably make bad decisions that will send them back to poverty even if they government provides them with an income.
What are you talking about? Of course poverty can be eradicated – we would just have to make it a point to provide basic necessities to everyone regardless of their ability to pay. We just need to agree that this is a worthwhile political goal and enact it. There's no law of the universe preventing that, it's a purely political question.
Even if in the Utopian-like future you envisage the government provides for all basic needs that will not amend the struggles in life such as disease, death, existential dread, pathologies, violence, discord, anxiety, depression and instability.
You seem to think progress will invariably lead to good but I look at it as stepping into a dark abyss. What will happen to our culture when millions of people depend on the government for all their necessities? Will they turn into virtuous citizens? Knowing human nature probably not. Most likely there will be widespread debauchery, drug use, cultural degeneration and intellectual lethargy. The lack of religion will leave a spiritual void that will only be satiated by sensual and material desires which will not make life fulfilling nor happy nor meaningful. Not to mention the damage that would do to the economy and to the freedoms of people when government becomes a behemoth.
There are so many blind spots that you dont even consider when imagining how this government run utopia might look like. Homelessness will always exist and people- even with basic necessities- will still fall into wretchedness and discord. You can't change human nature.
Even if in the Utopian-like future you envisage the government provides for all basic needs that will not amend the struggles in life such as disease, death, existential dread, pathologies, violence, discord, anxiety, depression and instability.
Yeah, those will still exist. But at least we wouldn't have to worry about our basic needs being met, so we could spend more time actually dealing with those.
What will happen to our culture when millions of people depend on the government for all their necessities?
I'm not talking about the government, I'm talking about people. We already depend on each others' labor – we'd just ensure that the resources are actually distributed where they're needed.
Will they turn into virtuous citizens? Knowing human nature probably not. Most likely there will be widespread debauchery, drug use, cultural degeneration and intellectual lethargy.
OR once people are free from the ills of poverty and struggle to survive, they'll actually have the time and means to pursue their passions and flourish.
The lack of religion will leave a spiritual void that will only be satiated by sensual and material desires which will not make life fulfilling nor happy nor meaningful.
So life is only meaningful when you're either religiously devoted, or struggling to survive?
There are so many blind spots that you dont even consider when imagining how this government run utopia might look like.
No one said this has to be completely government-run – you're projecting.
Homelessness will always exist and people- even with basic necessities- will still fall into wretchedness and discord.
Homelessness does not have to exist. It has been eradicated before. I don't understand how you can believe that making sure everyone is housed, clothed, and fed would lead to social degradation.
You can't change human nature.
"Human nature" doesn't exist. Behavior is conditioned by one's environment.
You seem to be encased in a mind set whereas your vision of the future will be able to work in practice just as it looks in theory. But that's a great mistake that has unfortunately been made many times before. There are so many things wrong with your comment it's honestly baffling. It's a mixture of marxism and post-modernist nonsense.
People are inherently selfish and we will NEVER share resources equitably. Only a tyrannical central government can in practice do what you're saying. People sharing resources in a large scale society and that actually working is Utopian fairly tale that has never happened and never will. Human nature is definitely real- all you have to do it observe cross cultural similarities between civilizations today and in history to realize what nonsense it is to say human nature does not exist. I could go on but it would be fruitless and nothing will convince you. Your ideological goggles firmly in place and a change of mind will only come from within, not from without.
You seem to be encased in a mind set whereas your vision of the future will be able to work in practice just as it looks in theory.
You seem to be encased in a mindset wherein any alternative vision for society is completely impossible.
There are so many things wrong with your comment it's honestly baffling.
Why don't you put some argument behind those words?
People are inherently selfish and we will NEVER share resources equitably.
Early human society would like to have a word with you.
Only a tyrannical central government can in practice do what you're saying.
Provide basic necessities to all its citizens?
People sharing resources in a large scale society and that actually working is Utopian fairly tale that has never happened and never will
Revolutionary Spain, the Paris Commune, Zapatista Chiapas, (and to a lesser extent, Scandinavian social democracy) would beg to differ.
Human nature is definitely real- all you have to do it observe cross cultural similarities between civilizations today and in history to realize what nonsense it is to say human nature does not exist.
You can assert this all you want, but that doesn't make it true. This type of biological essentialist thinking is pretty weak.
Your ideological goggles firmly in place and a change of mind will only come from within, not from without.
Speak for yourself, guy who refuses to accept that other systems of social organization are possible.
Thanks for proving my points. All your historical examples are laughably wrong(they relied on central governmental structures) and egalitarian tribal societies cant be replicated to a society as big as the United States. Im not bothering with paragraph after paragraphs of refutations because none of it will convince you anyhow. Plus all your beliefs of human nature have already been thoroughly debunked by Pinker’s “Blank Slate”.
How can they be “wrong”? They existed. And are you trying to argue that having a functioning central government is a sign of a failing state, or what? You have yet to make a single argument. Sounds like you’re just copping out because you’re unwilling to engage with different ideas. But glad you at least acknowledge that “human nature” is certainly capable of egalitarianism (not that I’m arguing for a return of hunter-gatherer social structure, anyway).
They are wrong examples because they do not fit with you utopian ideal of a egalitarian society that redistributes equitably without a central government structure. You said it yourself.
Actually, they do. You really don’t know anything about these examples. Aside from Scandinavia, these were all decentralized, free associations of workers who organized themselves and coordinated the distribution of goods at local levels. I’m just saying it’s possible to do this.
I would love for you to support to claims. There was definitely a centralized authority to those examples and even it there wasnt, that doesnt automatically mean it could be implemented to a nation as vast and diverse as the US. Meanwhile, successful capitalism has thousands of successful examples. Look around the word, almost every country today is richer and more prosperous because of capitalist policies. Socialism and egalitarianism just lefts millions of people dead and a tyrannical central government. That is how it will always ends if egalitarianism is taken to its logical conclusion. Your idea of an egalitarian society Is a pipedream really. I like your idealism though it reminds me of my socialist years.
"There was definitely a centralized authority to those examples and even it there wasnt, that doesnt automatically mean it could be implemented to a nation as vast and diverse as the US"
' Nice cop-out
Numerous organizations were set up during the siege in the localities (quartiers) to meet social needs, such as canteens and first-aid stations. For example, in the 3rd arrondissement, school materials were provided free, three parochial schools were "laicised", and an orphanage was established. In the 20th arrondissement, schoolchildren were provided with free clothing and food. At the same time, these local assemblies pursued their own goals, usually under the direction of local workers.
Very quickly more than 60% of the land was collectively cultivated by the peasants themselves, without landlords, without bosses, and without instituting capitalist competition to spur production. In almost all the industries, factories, mills, workshops, transportation services, public services, and utilities, the rank and file workers, their revolutionary committees, and their syndicates reorganized and administered production, distribution, and public services without capitalists, high salaried managers, or the authority of the state.
The various agrarian and industrial collectives immediately instituted economic equality in accordance with the essential principle of communism, 'From each according to his ability and to each according to his needs.' They coordinated their efforts through free association in whole regions, created new wealth, increased production (especially in agriculture), built more schools, and bettered public services. They instituted not bourgeois formal democracy but genuine grass roots functional libertarian democracy, where each individual participated directly in the revolutionary reorganization of social life.
Zapatista communities continue to practice horizontal autonomy and mutual aid by building and maintaining their own anti-systemic health, education, and sustainable agro-ecological systems, promoting equitable gender relations via Women's Revolutionary Law, and building international solidarity through humble outreach and non-imposing political communication.
...the EZLN aims to reinforce the idea of participatory democracy or radical democracy by limiting public servants' terms to only two weeks, not using visible organization leaders, and constantly referring to the people they are governing for major decisions, strategies, and conceptual visions.
The agricultural sector of the economy now favors ejidos and other commonly-owned land.
and tell me how successful were these communes in the long run? Did they provide as much prosperity as capitalist systems did later in all of these countries? I mean the Paris Commune was a short lived failure that does not serve as a exemplary for a whole economic system. The communists in Spain were murderous and were so divided because of "egalitarianism" that they were inevitably defeated by the more unified and efficient Nationalist forces. The the last example is a bunch of rag tag militias that have caused more harm than good in Mexico. If these are the best you've got- it's not convincing at all.
I mean the Paris Commune was a short lived failure that does not serve as a exemplary for a whole economic system
It was incredibly successful, until it was crushed by the might of an entire empire.
he communists in Spain were murderous and were so divided because of "egalitarianism" that they were inevitably defeated by the more unified and efficient Nationalist forces
I'm sure Hitler's support had nothing to do with that.
The the last example is a bunch of rag tag militias that have caused more harm than good in Mexico
Maybe you should ask some indigenous people about that.
Look, you've argued that this kind of system (which, let me remind you, began from me just saying that everyone should have their basic needs met – didn't think it would be so morally abhorrent) is impossible. I'm saying that it is possible, and it's a moral imperative. The fact that we allow people to be poor and homeless is a stain on our society, and I'm just saying we can do better. But as long as people have these defeatist attitudes like yours, people will continue to suffer.
And as long as we have Utopian egalitarians like you things are only going to get worse because your ideas won't work out in practice like you imagine them in theory. No one is allowing them to be homeless- most people in developed countries are homeless because they choose to abdicate responsibility and live that life style. Poverty has been decreasing worldwide in the past decades under capitalist policies so you should support that. Socialism just makes everybody equally poor and opens the door for tyrannical dictatorships (Soviet Union, Maoist China, Pol Pot, Venezuela, etc).Human suffering and poverty cannot be eradicated and egalitarian policies will cause havoc as humans are not- and never will be- equal. It's not a defeatist attitude- it's sober and realistic.
No one is allowing them to be homeless- most people in developed countries are homeless because they choose to abdicate responsibility and live that life style
Right, no one has ever become homeless unless they wanted to. /s
Poverty has been decreasing worldwide in the past decades under capitalist policies so you should support that
Only absolute extreme worldwide poverty (which means that if you make ~$2 a day, you are no longer considered poor, no matter where you live). Relative poverty within countries is the measure we should be looking at, and that has been increasing.
Socialism just makes everybody equally poor and opens the door for tyrannical dictatorships (Soviet Union, Maoist China, Pol Pot, Venezuela, etc)
Yeah I don't support any of those systems. I still think we can do better.
Human suffering and poverty cannot be eradicated
This attitude is literally the only thing standing in the way of this.
egalitarian policies will cause havoc as humans are not- and never will be- equal
So we're just throwing that whole "all men are created equal" thing out the window?
You keep misrepresenting my point. I'm not advocating for everyone to be given exactly the same things or for complete equality in every sphere of life like Harrison Bergeron. I'm literally just saying we should make sure everyone has a warm house to go home to with food on the table.
I'm just saying that humans are inherently unequal as beings. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be treated the same before the law or that we are not equal before god. But egalitarian policies will have to confront the fact that the inherent inequality of humanity will prevent for a successful implementation equity policies- no matter how well intentioned they are.
Your assumption that once everybody has their material needs then they will be prosperous sand happy is not a self-evident presupposition as our psyche and behaviors are the main source of our suffering. Equalitarian policies could further deteriorate our inner life as people will feel entitled to everything by the government (or communes as you would have it) and would never satiate themselves with mere material property. It would lead to a culture of decline in my opinion.
I think we just have starkly different pictures of what humanity is and what we are realistically able to achieve. I appreciate your concern for the well-being of others and i'm sorry if I came off a bit confrontational- it's hard to be compassionate through the keyboard. However I would have to remind you of a true maxim: The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Just try this thought experiment: What things could go terribly wrong if we try to implement the egalitarian policies you propose?
I'm just saying that humans are inherently unequal as beings.
This is exactly the same argument that justified slavery
That doesn't mean we shouldn't be treated the same before the law or that we are not equal before god
So we should all be treated equally before the law, but we shouldn't all have our basic needs met?
But egalitarian policies will have to confront the fact that the inherent inequality of humanity will prevent for a successful implementation equity policies
Never said I wanted to give everyone exactly the same things. Just that everyone should have the basics they need to survive.
Your assumption that once everybody has their material needs then they will be prosperous sand happy
Never said that. All I'm saying is that their lives would at least be secure.
our psyche and behaviors are the main source of our suffering
Not having to stress about when your next meal might come would give people more time and energy to deal with those existential issues.
qualitarian policies could further deteriorate our inner life as people will feel entitled to everything by the government (or communes as you would have it) and would never satiate themselves with mere material property
So now you're arguing that it's better for people's inner lives if they're hungry and homeless. No one is talking about hedonism, just basic subsistence.
What things could go terribly wrong if we try to implement the egalitarian policies you propose?
With woeful mismanagement, corruption, or abuse – assuming we let this happen – some people would end up with all the power and others would end up destitute. So, not much different than what we have now. We have nothing to lose.
Every individual is different is not the same as saying that two groups of people are different. No one is equal in aptitude, intelligence, ability and biology. That is a factual truth. There is more difference between individuals in one group than difference between two groups. Saying everybody is different as individuals is not the same as justifying racism or superiority of one race to another. That's just a gross misinterpretation on your part.
Ideally people's needs should be met- the question is how that will happen. As it stands- capitalism has been the most successful in that regard while redistribution has not been. I should point out that Social Democracies in Europe are free market economies and their system works due to their stable economies and small cohesive societies.
The majority of people in developed countries can actually go to food banks to get free food- no one is literally worrying about starvation as many did in the Soviet Union and Maoist China. Most people do have basic subsistence in countries such as Britain yet the underclass there is in woefully bad shape. I recommend reading "Life at the Bottom" by Theodore Dalrymple (a man who has experienced the British welfare state on the poor first-hand as a doctor).
And no you dont get to say that a corrupt socialist economy is not much different than what we have now. How is a country as prosperous as the United States (or any capitalist country such as Chile or Singapore) "not much different" than a country such as Venezuela? That is just mere silliness and lazy thinking on your part.
Every individual is different is not the same as saying that two groups of people are different. No one is equal in aptitude, intelligence, ability and biology. That is a factual truth. There is more difference between individuals in one group than difference between two groups. Saying everybody is different as individuals is not the same as justifying racism or superiority of one race to another. That's just a gross misinterpretation on your part.
Not denying people are physically different. Just saying they should all get the basic things they need to survive.
Ideally people's needs should be met- the question is how that will happen. As it stands- capitalism has been the most successful in that regard
A system that allows for homeless and hungry people is not the best we can do.
The majority of people in developed countries can actually go to food banks to get free food
Only if you're physically able to get yourself to a food bank. Not to mention that food banks do shut down, which is something that any system that purports to care about its people should never let happen.
Most people do have basic subsistence in countries such as Britain yet the underclass there is in woefully bad shape.
There should be no "underclass" of people – that's part of the problem. It's morally abhorrent that we allow an "underclass" to exist. Plenty of homeless and hungry people in Britain, not everyone gets everything they need.
A no you dont get to say that a corrupt socialist economy is not much different than what we have now
I'm sorry, but if you're unwilling to recognize the fact that the US has food deserts, massive homeless populations, enormous poverty (which has literally been investigated by the UN), and a suffering populace, you're fucking blind. Sure, the US is prosperous – but not everyone sees that prosperity. That's for a select few. A wealthy elite that both major political parties rely on and actively court.
You see the world through a ideologically colored lens. There's not point in talking with you as your sentimentality and radical egalitarianism are inevitably impervious to facts. Human suffering and relative poverty can never be eradicated. There will always be an underclass regardless of what economic system we have. What you propose will not work because you have an inadequate understanding of human nature (you deny it which is even worse). Anyhow, I hope the best for you.
I'm seeing the world through an ideologically colored lens? You're insisting that we live under the only (and best) system possible, and refuse to imagine a world without poverty and suffering because of some vague notion of human nature you can't actually prove.
I get that you're committed to the status quo, but you've shut yourself off from even discussing the virtues of alternative systems of social organization (after initially denying they could have even existed). It's one thing to disagree about the benefits and drawbacks of different systems that aim to eradicate poverty and suffering, but you're not even acknowledging that it's a goal worth pursuing in the first place. You're using the same tired arguments that people have been using for centuries. Had we lived in the Middle Ages, you could have used the exact same argument to insist that the divine right of kings is the only system that could work, and that human nature meant that there had to be an aristocracy alongside serfs and peasants.
I don't know whether you're just scared to imagine a different world, or if you've committed to the eternal existence of poverty because don't want to feel complicit in other peoples' suffering – but you have completely written off the idea that things could be better, and that attitude only upholds the suffering that already exists.
From the best of my knowledge nobody gets denied health care. Health insurance is probably what you mean.
Fair enough, health coverage would have been more accurate. Still, plenty of people avoid getting actual care because they know it will bankrupt them.
You can't fix society. You can only make yourself the best you you can be. Regardless of who you blame your problems on they wont go away until you overcome them. And that is a much better feeling than living a privileged, easy life.
You can't fix society
This is the worst take you could possibly have. Would you have said the same thing about slavery? Child labor? Jim Crow? Some problems are inherently political and need to be reformed en masse.
But its societies fault my life isn't in order!!!
Por que no los dos? Fix your life, and contribute to the betterment of society (more voices get heard).
Translation: only the people benefiting from society are allowed to have a say in it.
you go out screaming at society.
Or just skip this part since this is a major part of the problem.
Translation: people who try to change things are a problem for me.
Dr Peterson?
There is a saying: I wanted to change the world so i changed myself.
Sometimes the change means learning to speak out about injustice and environmental waste.
Something something remove the log from your own eye before trying to remove the splinter from others'.
Jordan Peterson harps on this a lot with his new book. His point is that if you can’t tackle your own problems that are fully under your control (his example: make your bed) then you can’t tackle the larger issues in the world that you have a lot less control over
Start by cleaning your room
SAYS THE MOSQUITO
Hope to see both occur. Outrage at society. As well as a focus on the constructive ways we can improve it.
Don't just hope. Outrage without informed problem solving is worthless at best or destructive at worst.
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Something something parkland survivors
It spreads awareness at best.
Not saying I enjoy or approve of people getting outraged by everything, but speaking up about things in society that outrage you does spread awareness.
I agree though, you should spread awareness through actions.
Awareness spread through informed problem-solving is awareness.
"Awareness" spread through misinformed or directionless outrage is misinformation and/or hate. It does more harm than good, and damages the credibility of anyone who's actually trying to push a cause forward in a productive, informed way.
If you're going to "spread awareness", you 100% have an obligation to get your facts straight and tell the truth. Period.
You're using "problem-solving" like a buzzword. "Spreading awareness through problem-solving" doesn't really make sense. A comedian can spread awareness with a joke. It doesn't solve the problem, but its important.
Of course misinformation is bad. Of course witch hunts and slander are bad.
Its impossible to have 100% facts. Major news outlets will often all get a story wrong and it is their occupation. Every single media outlet was actively pushing the lies of Iraq's WMDs, and it got us into a war.
I think, as you insinuated, when the information is about an individual and credibility/reputation are on the line; then yes you need to do the best you can to research and get your facts straight. However, I don't think its possible to be "100%" responsible for everything, as you say.
EDIT: To be clear, I agree you have a moral obligation to try to get your facts straight; but it can be very difficult these days and sometimes expediency needs to be weighted with accuracy. Time matters during live ongoing events like protests, riots, etc. To add onto your point, I think there needs to be a more active moral obligation towards CORRECTING mistakes with the same platform and fervor as you used to spread lies. When you lie on the front page of your newspaper, you need to have the correction on the front page in the same font-- not hidden away in the back section.
"Spreading awareness through problem-solving" doesn't really make sense
This is how it's done - this comment itself being an example.
"Comments that criticize an opinion solely for holding that opinion aren't helpful. Comments that criticize an opinion, explain why that opinion is objectionable, and request a response from the person being criticized to foster a dialogue raises far more awareness than a drive-by tweet, Reddit comment, or Facebook meme-share.
To be fair, I don't use Facebook. I always have these type of level-headed conversations on Reddit/Twitter. I guess it just depends on how you choose to use your outrage, rather than impulsively hurling insults for "likes and upboats".
A comedian spreading awareness through a joke isn't really a counter-example. That is problem-solving (or if you're annoyed by that being a "buzzword", or confused by what I mean by it, is a reasoned, constructive response intended to improve the situation). The odds are extremely good that this was rehearsed, thought out, and researched. The problem in question is that people aren't aware of the issue, and they likely set out to correct that when putting the act together. Even if it doesn't completely fix the situation (few important things are simple enough to fix in one step), that was still problem-solving.
What you advocated for above, however, is that one merit of outrage without any planned, deliberate action or forethought would be that it's at least "raising awareness". If said comedian told a joke that was NOT researched, and misrepresented the issue, there would absolutely be backlash. Likewise, if they went into a half-cocked, unplanned rant about the topic while on television, it's very likely they'd do more harm than good to their cause (again, probably by failing to represent the facts, and having their argument picked apart).
This conversation has thus far been about principles, which can be absolute, even if reality never is. Is it always right to convey only the facts, and to research these to the best of your ability? Yes. The fact that it isn't always possible doesn't really factor into whether it's right or wrong, and isn't relevant. It's not worth defending the witch hunt folks as "raising awareness" just because reality isn't as clean as principle, and nobody can ever be 100% correct on everything.
What you advocated for above, however, is that one merit of outrage without any planned, deliberate action or forethought would be that it's at least "raising awareness". If said comedian told a joke that was NOT researched, and misrepresented the issue
I think I understand what you mean now. To put into my own words: You're not advocating against "outrage" you're advocating against the IMPULSIVENESS of modern outrage. The impulsive "this offends me and justifies my world view, thus it must be true" and then spreading/commenting on the lie. That impulse becomes the vehicle for the outrage rather than stopping and critically thinking about how you can add to the conversation/solution in an important way.
To be clear... you are (probably accidentally) misinterpreting my views. I am absolutely against misinformation and witch hunts. However, talking about things is the first step towards solving things. You can't fix an issue no one knows is broken. I think we are on the same page, but like you said you are talking about a theoretical concept, and I am trying to bring the tire meets the road reality to the conversation. Principally I agree with you completely.
the problem with social issues is how it's brought up, and outrage will make you more enemies than allies. If the way you act causes them to dislike you on principle then they are probably going to disagree with you anyway.
Like you can sit someone down and have a long conversation about the percieved harmful effects of long term unrestricted immigration of poverty stricken communities or you can kick in the door screaming about white genocide. The only thing you are spreading awareness of is that you are a wacko.
Yeah, or you can sit down and have a long conversation about how all the same arguments were used against the Irish, the Italians, and the Polish.
And that would be a much better and more convincing counter argument than just screaming back at them wouldn’t it?
I think the problem is that the only places "political discussions" happen are:
1) Rallies and protests: Mob mentality and volume makes discussion impossible.
2) The internet: the personable disconnect of not being face-to-face with a human... along with the peer environment, means etiquette is often bypassed in favor of shocking and humorous criticisms rather than constructive discussion.
3) The biased depictions in the media: Bullshit organizations like Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, etc will all have faux discussions that are only in place to solidify their own propagandist corporate agenda.
4) Family discussions: often people who are set in their ways are met with people who are younger and they don't respect. Parents/grandparents talking with their younglings, etc. The unequal power/respect dynamic causes a non-mutual conversation.
There really isn't much of a platform for people to sit down indoors and have level-headed small group or one on one political conversation. Even if there was, the work hours and exhaustion of the current labor climate means people want to just go home and shutdown after work.
I'm not sure what the solution to all of this is.
I'm more concerned about the 'at worst'. A method of interrogation is you appy cycles of pressure and relief and you bait the hook for the person that by them doing the thing the pressure will be over.
One issue I see is that some jaded, cynical people are very pessimistic towards any hard problem. Eg, it's pretty easy to find people on this site who will put down just about any protestors. "Why are they just protesting instead of doing something" is a common complaint. But protesting is doing something.
The kinds of problems we most commonly have in our society tend to be ones that cannot be easily solved with one person. Things like wanting to change the law requires you to rally up many, many people.
Also, I'm not sure how many of these cynics really are just cynical people. How many are instead purposefully trying to manipulate the narrative? They'll try and minimize their opposition's viewpoints, flat out lie about what their opponents even want, discourage people from voting, etc. And plenty of people here will eat that bullshit right up. You'll see these people even in this thread. They'll try and discredit movements and make it seem like those actually doing something are crazy, stupid, or misinformed.
Great points.
To add on to what you're saying, I would be very careful as to not let Reddit determine your world-view or confidence in your own stances. During the 2016 election I found a LOT of political astroturfing accounts. After the election was over I continued to find a bunch of astroturf accounts for very horrific things.
After Trump was inaugurated, I found many accounts who's sole purpose was to aggressively push US intervention in Syria. Meanwhile every corporate media outlet was pushing Trump to bomb Syria to prove he wasn't a "Puppet" (barf). Then when he did, the whole media landscape was fellating him as being "presidential" for doing so. Absolutely disgusting warhawk bullshit.
I am definitely fearful of social media's centralization of internet discussion. Thanks for your insightful post, I appreciate the discussion.
Agreed. Emotion gets more things done than meh does.
It gets more things done, but not always the right things. I've seen emotion do much more harm than good honestly.
I think there needs to be a desire to solve the problems, but not let emotion over rule your critical thinking
Emotion should drive you, not guide you.
I dare say 90% of the problems we have on a global level is because of the "meh"
If I don't SEE and FEEL it affecting me directly, I don't need to get out of my out to fix it.
I see the problem moreso as too much finger pointing and not enough leading by example.
This, so much.
Also, so many people letting emotion rather than logic dictate their choices. And for all that emotion they have, still not caring deeply enough to do their research before they make up their minds, preferring instead to follow whoever seems to be telling them what to think/leading the crowd at the time.
I think you perfectly defined 'slactivism'
But emotion clouds your judgement and makes you irrational. So you may get more done, but it's less likely to be what actually needs to get done.
I read that as ‘Emotion gets more things done than meth does.’ And I had to disagree.
Meth does get a lot done, not good things, but things, so yeah, a lot like emotions.
I think you have the wrong idea honestly. I think the point is that people should just focus on themselves and things they can immediately control in their own lives and communities, and social/political attitudes arise from that.
Too many people get so caught up in grand national/international bullshit, working each other up into a frenzy over things and ideas that simply grow to consume them and start burning people as fuel.
And on the other hand, find the parts of other people that are like you rather than focusing on the differences.
This should have its own comment chain. So many people don't understand how important this is.
Glad that we are different.
YES! I know far too many people whose entire identities seem to be nothing but their own outrage. Lots of politics, but also a lot of class hatred and even one individual who intensely hates anyone with a dog that isn’t a shelter rescue. I’ve started hiding all these people of social media and I’m glad I did. Although I want to be exposed to different ideas, I just don’t have the energy for people who just hate all the time. :-/
This is one of the big reasons I deactivated my social media. I'm pretty far left, politically, and I got tired of the echo chamber. I also became very depressed over how hateful everyone around me seemed to be. They seemed to believe that dehumanizing people & treating them poorly was okay, as long as it was the right groups of people. I don't want to live my life that way.
I feel the same way. Instead of seeing the many things we do agree on, they only see the differences. And often the “differences” are just that we want the same end goal but think there are different ways to achieve it. If we could start by recognizing that, I feel like we’d be so far ahead!
Yes! Even small actions can make a difference.
"We won't win by fighting what we hate, but by saving what we love"
Came here for the Rose quote. Not disappointed.
I like this. I know how to use it in training a puppy, but really, it should be a life lesson. We'd be happier in a better world.
Stop revolving your identity over the things that outrage you
Most social change came from people being outraged
I really need to work on this one.
Stop basing your identity on shit you don't do and base it more on shit you actually do
I try to do this so, so much. It's hard. I don't like being pissed off/angry, I don't like getting argumentative, but I think it just comes to me naturally and I try my hardest to actively police my own behavior.
Every time I feel myself getting fired up or notice that I'm in a pissy mood, I quote The Big Lebowski to myself: "Dude, you're being very un-Dude..."
I have been doing this for about 9 months, and it is surprising how much it can affect your demeanor. I realized, last night, that I haven't been angry in months.
Well said!
I like this one the most so far. It’s one of those things that’s not as obvious.
Also along the lines of identity: the things that you *are* don't matter at all. It's what you *do* that matters.
If your race or gender or sexual orientation is the most interesting thing about you then you are an amazingly boring person. You don't have a choice in any of that stuff. What do you do with your time?
Holy fuck you just called me out for real
Thank you, I'll try to do better
Refuse Reduce Reuse Repurpose Recycle.
These words are in order from greatest impact to least impact. Look all the way to the left. Recycle is the LEAST impact out of the Rs.
Refuse single plastic products like straws and plastic bags. Reduce the amount of water you use in your washing machine if possible. Reuse glass jars from things like pasta sauces for bulk bin items. Repurpose food scraps to make stir fry or stock. Recycling is good. But I feel like a lot of people forget about the first four before heading straight to recycling.
I like to throw in Repair also. I am by no means a master technician, but I can do some soldering, general tinkering, etc. This has saved me a lot of money and also I've kept many appliances out of the trash (and have taken some from there, to the chagrin of my spouse).
Don't forget Rot. Rather than put biodegradable stuff in the rubbish, compost it and grow food in window boxes. It uses less energy to Rot cardboard boxes than to Recycle them, and helps to reduce your produce packaging.
Refuse and Reduce seem like the same thing to me. You refuse to reduce. But you can make it up with another R though - repair. Put that between reuse and repurpose. I'll try to repair things and when no longer repairable, I'll think about how else I can use the remains.
The 5 R's in OP's comment are similar to the 5 R's of the zero waste lifestyle promoted by Bea Johnson. The point of refusing is to send a signal to companies or businesses that things like single-use products are not wanted. Eventually, if enough people say no consistently, maybe they'll only offer a bag or straw but not give one automatically and without thinking. Or dentists will stop giving our mini plastic bags with plastic floss and plastic toothbrushes and plastic toothpaste tubes! The point of reducing is to cut down on things you use in daily life, or don't need (this lifestyle is often conflated with minimalism though they are not the same thing). It includes getting rid of clutter (see the Konmari method) or possessions you don't really need as well as cutting back on thinks like packaged foods that aren't that great for you anyways.
You can also use the glass jars from pasta and such for refrigerator jam, for holding crafting supplies, for holding rubber bands, exc
I understand the plastic stuff, but why reduce the water used in a washing machine? If you aren't in an area with a drought, what's the problem with the water in the machine?
Three very easy things to change with practically 0 impact to your daily life:
*Stop using straws, it fucks up marine life
*Cut the plastic that holds can 6 packs and similar things with scissors before throwing them in recycling
*Use a water bottle instead of buying bottled water every time you need a drink
The third point is particularly easy to argue for: you'll save a bunch of money too. (Kinda like giving up smoking in that regard, I guess.)
Addendum: when you cut the plastic can rings, make sure you get the small ones in the middle too. Some fish and turtles are tiny.
How about don't dump your shit in the ocean ?
RE: #1 if you're really just about drinking through a straw, there are stainless steel reusable metal straws. I've got a couple around the house for when I make smoothies.
Yeah, I have a pile of paper straws and reusable plastic/steel/glass straws (the latter of which drunk people aren't allowed to use) in my home bar. I love using straws and I couldn't give it up.
The straw withdrawals (withstrawals?) are real!
Love my metal straws!
YEP. i will never put my lips to a restaurant plastic cup. so i use a stainless steel reusable. (although, i doubt the cup’s inside is much cleaner than the rim). better yet, eat at home. restaurants are kinda gross.
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I’ve worked in restaurants too. Disgusting overall.
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I worked at a higher-scale restaurant in a deteriorating area. Nobody came anymore (maybe three couples on a Friday night). I quit and got a job at a more sports bar type place. My first day, my TRAINER took a cocktail sauce out of the fridge for some poor soul’s fried fish, and mixed it with her bare dirty finger with caked SHIT under her nail. Disgusting. I intercepted it and gave the guy a new one. There was not a single plastic glove in that building.
The manager was very particular about cleanliness..... in front of house.
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I lasted one month. Had to have something lined up.
Why does the plastic ring things matter? It's in bagged recycling going to go (hopefully) be melted down into crappy plastic deck chairs or whatever.
Bags blow off lorries, stuff gets shipped all over depending what country you are in. Easier to just pull it apart and snap em than have one stick around a turtle forever.
I was tempted to downvote you, but then I realized, it was a good question. Asked honestly.
Upvoted for asking and hopefully learning.
Not at all negligible amounts of recycled material end up not being recycled.
True, but if you're in Kansas, it's highly unlikely that it's going to wind up anywhere except a landfill in Kansas.
Where do i get the water from to fill my bottle? My tap water is really bad
You can buy a water filter to filter your tap water. Bottled water is also not great to drink (microplastics, diseases, etc).
You can also get water in like 5 gallon reusable containers. There's lots of delivery services and even many grocery stores have a station you can refill them at.
Or, you can do what my one friend's family did, they just bought a bunch of those 5 gallon water cooler containers and filled them up whenever they visited family with decent tap water.
I've gotten into using the stainless steel tumblers that keep your water cold for "8 hours." I put it in quotes as my mileage varies depending on which one I'm using, but they definitely do work. I can't stand when the water gets warm, so they keep me drinking water more.
Woah - what are these?
You can get them everywhere. If you want a recommendation for a water bottle, check out /r/buyitforlife and search water bottles. Walmart sells the brand Ozark, which is like a knockoff of Yeti and I have heard they are very good at keep things cold for a long time, or Hydroflask.
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Have a large one sitting next to me right now at work. Love it. This morning, the water had no ice in it, but was still pretty cool, so drinkable to me. I love that I can put ice and water in before bed and keep it by my bed all night if I wake up needing a drink without it going to room temperature.
I've had my insulated Klean Kanteen for many years, I bought it when they were first introduced. Supposedly they are a lot better now but mine still keeps ice water cold all day. Even if I leave it in a hot car.
I think my dad might have one those, or something similar to that...
or maybe i just saw it in a dream
You can get them at Walmart for about $8 nowadays. Think the Yeti/RTIC tumblers. They work pretty well.
For point number one - if you insist on using a straw, buy a reusable steel or glass one with a cleaning brush, and just bring it with you everywhere.
I just own these thick plastic straws I can wash. I’ve had them for about 5 years now and they’re still going strong.
Or if you're in your apartment, use a cup.
In my house we have those refillable water dispensers that we fill up every week and it annoys me how my mom and I are the only ones that use it and the rest of the house drinks water bottles which costs more, fills up the recycling bins, and is less practical for them since half the time they refill them anyways.
These three things were so easy to adopt I didn't even realize I was doing them. Also reusable waterbottles are THE BEST. I tend to drink more water when I have one too cuz it's always there and free to refill. Best $10 investment of my life.
You should really push for your 6packs to be wrapped in thin foil though. Those holders are way too much plastic for the purpose
I'm sure it varies, but I guess there isn't fluoride in bottled water, but it is in tap, which fluoride is good for your teeth, so bonus!
sooo.... reduce plastic use? lmao
Yes. You say that as if our landfills and oceans are not full of it though... I find that spelling out things you can fo instead of general statements goes further along. It certainly helped me reduce my plastic use, and be more conscientious about my use of it
Don't bring kids into the world that you can't raise properly.
I'm 23, still in college, barely above minimum wage job.
My entire family: "It's about time you have kids with that little girlfriend of yours."
"I can barely afford rent, why would I do that?"
"Don't be selfish."
"If you wait for the right time you'll never have kids!"
I hear this a lot, bitch I'm fucking BROKE and drowning in student debt.
There's never a right time, but there sure as shit is a very very wrong time.
My wife and I waited until we both had established, stable careers, all of our debts paid off, had gone on several nice vacations together, had a lot of equity built up in a house through aggressive paying down of the mortgage, and had achieved the goals we felt driven to achieve but knew we wouldn't have the time for.
It took a few years, but it was definitely the right time to have them. We're more mature as people, we haven't had to struggle financially, and we've never felt like our kids stole anything from us, so we can devote ourselves wholly to raising them well.
I felt none of the terror they talk about parents having. I didn't have a lot of experience with babies, but lots of idiots have managed to keep babies alive, so I figured it couldn't be that hard, and it wasn't. We were ready, and we were equipped.
We did the exact same thing, just had our first baby at 35. Best decision we ever made. Although my husband was laid off only a month before her birth, I was far enough in my career and we had enough savings (and he was far enough in his career that he at least got a good severence package) that though it certainly made things more difficult and stressful, it was manageable.
If we'd had a kid ten years earlier when he got laid off in the 2008 crash, and I was early in my career, we would have been fucked.
As you said, we also are more mature, have had plenty of adventurous travel just the two of us, and are more stable/comfortable in our marriage. I can honestly say that parenting a baby has been far easier than I thought it would be based on hearing other people talk about it, and I think our age/length of marriage (ten years) is 100% why.
Although my husband was laid off only a month before her birth
Wow, that's cold.
Yup, it sucked. They at least had the decency to feel bad about it and give him a better severance as a result.
Here’s a terrible tale: my sister is a gourmet chef in NYC. The holiday season is the busy season for restaurants and the best time to look for a job, after the holiday season it is winter and dead time for restaurants, no one is hiring.
At her last job, the restaurant was having some financial trouble due to new (and terrible) management, and taking some cost cutting measures. This was in the fall, right before the busy season. The manager took my sister aside and let her know that although the restaurant WAS making cutbacks, she didn’t have to worry, her job was safe. So she stayed with them through the busy season. They then fired her the day after Christmas. She’s a great chef so she got a new, better job, but was out of work for the entire winter until industry hiring picked back up.
That's really shitty. From this and other stories I've heard, even if a company swears up and down that your job is safe during a downturn or a layoff period, don't believe them. If they're not outright lying you could still end up getting canned in the next round.
Just in general the restaurant industry is one of the most exploitative. Another thing that has happened to my sister and many of her friends in the industry is that a restaurant will give no notice they are closing, because they don't want the employees to start looking for other jobs and quit early while they can still make the owners at least some cash on their way out. It is entirely typical for restaurant workers to show up to work only to be told that will be their last shift because the restaurant is closing that day. Or even worse, they are given no notice at all, and they literally show up to work to locked doors and a sign saying the restaurant is permanently closed. Often in cases like this the owners also stiff them on their final pay check. Happened just recently at an upscale restaurant in my neighborhood. They were evicted for non-payment of rent, told no one, and the staff showed up to work to find an eviction notice taped to the door, and they were never paid their final paychecks.
A restaurant in Cambridge closed on New Years Day this year. They didn't tell employees they were closed until they came to open up. They didn't want anyone to bail on working NYE. Fucking cold.
It's especially terrible to do stuff like this right AFTER the holidays. In addition to the difficulty in finding work that time of year, they wait until their employees have dropped a ton of money on holiday travel, food, gifts, etc that they would have been far more frugal about if they'd known they would be losing their jobs.
This happened to me at my second job. Middle of my third week, halfway through my shift s bunch of the waitresses were crying and storming around and I couldn't get an answer from anyone as to what the fuck was going on. Around I think an hour later I was told that we were already out of business and the restaurant was just using the day to liquidate as much as they could. I liked that job, too.
ESPECIALLY if they swear up and down that your job is safe.....
Right. Your employer should never have to reassure you about keeping your job.
Regarding the story about your sister…your is why valuable workers should never be persuaded by anything other than success.
If you are sometime that your company wants to keep, and that other companies would want, the power dynamic is inverted in your favor; you should think about firing your poorly performing employer in exactly the same way they would think about firing you if you were performing poorly.
This story perfectly illustrates why.
I got laid off 10 days after my wedding, in the housing crash of 2006, after 6 months on the job, and assurance they had enough work to hold out for another 12.
On one hand its shitty, but imagine how you would feel if you got laid off over some other guy because he has a kid on the way and you don't. I think its best to remain impartial on those things and not give anyone special treatment over anyone else.
Not that being laid off is a good thing, but him not having to work as the baby was born may have been a silver lining. I feel like applying to jobs and taking car of a baby could be a nice mix.
That definitely was a big silver lining. I had a really terrible labor and had a long recovery, so having him home to help while I was on maternity leave was really helpful. If he hadn't been laid off we probably would have had to have my mom come live with us for awhile to help me. And obviously it was great he got that baby bonding time, especially since his new job has him on the road a lot.
This is what me and my husband are aiming for. We just want to be more responsible and pay a good chunk of debt beforehand. Kids are expensive.
If I had a dollar for every time someone asked when we were having kids, and they would retort with an answer for any excuse. For one, why are you wanting us to have kids so badly? You're not the ones raising them. Hell the most people that ask us see us less and less. Why people care so much is beyond me.
I come from an Italian family, and as I said we were married for 10 years before having our first kid, so as you can imagine I spent years getting harassed by relatives, aunts especially, on when we would have a baby.
But you know who never bugged us? My parents. My parents are pretty well off but super frugal. They knew full well that if we had kids young, with lots of debt from my husband's student loans, no savings, and entry level jobs, and we hit any financial difficulties, they would be the ones having to pay for said baby.
My mom has stated she would love for us to have kids, but she told us to have them when we're ready. She may playfully pester us about it, but it's only because my brother keeps my niece away because his girlfriend is nuts, but that's a whole different story.
I had my first kid at 29 after my partner and I had also sorted these same minor things in life out. It's the one thing I would change in life, I would have started at the age of 22 when I first met my partner as we would still have been able to achieve all of those things anyway but would have been younger and had more energy. I will be 60 when my youngest kid is 18!
Wait.. you had your first kid at 29, and were still having kids at 42? That's quite an age gap
35 seems to be the universal cutting off age for pregnant women. Genetic risk increases dramatically
That number is misleading. Most of the data used to estimate the “cut-off” age of pregnancy is based on French birth records from 1670-1830, long before the advent of modern medicine. In addition, risks of birth defects (including chromosomal instability) are not as significant as many make them out to be. At the age of 40, 97% of fetuses are chromosomally normal and at age 45, the number is 87%.
Source: www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/309374/
Depends on the woman. Any pregnancy over 35 is automatically categorized as high risk, but that varies HIGHLY from woman to woman. I received genetic counseling and some other specialty testing prior to getting pregnant and was told that while I technically was in the "high risk" category automatically due to my age, I was in fact a low risk pregnancy.
I also got pregnant literally the first time we had sex after I went off my birth control. Women who get pregnant easily in their 30s or 40s are much less likely to have problems with the baby than women who have a lot of difficulty.
Telomere typing is becoming increasingly common for various medical specialties, and I think this will eventually become common for older women seeking to become pregnant. Telomere length indicates your "biological age" which is affected both by genetics and lifestyle. Long telomeres = young biological age, short telomeres are the opposite. Women being able to easily get pregnant in their 30s and 40s is strongly correlated to long telomeres and a long lifespan. A woman who can easily get pregnant in her 40s is much more likely to live to her 90s or even 100s, and their babies are at significantly less risk.
very interesting. Thank you
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Actually whether or not supporting children during retirement is somehow worse than during working is super subjective. By the time I’m retiring I’d hope to have my affairs in order— a few decades of a stable job, paid off house and car, steady savings, and a good nest egg. Having kids in their teens at this point in my life would mean I have more time to have experiences with them, and I’d be in a BETTER position to support them than if I was still financially dependent on a salary.
Of course, this won’t be true for many people since the majority of Americans at least are not on a trajectory to comfortable retirement. But with good planning and financial sense, raising kids when retired isn’t automatically worse than while working.
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The point I tried to make by saying I'd have my affairs in order is that despite a probably lower retirement income, my retirement EXPENSES are also much lower. I will no longer be paying a mortgage or rent, or buying new spiffy cars, and I will have passive income from investments if I saved correctly.
Also probably important to mention I'm a millenial, so at least in the US pension is expected to disappear and social security is unreliable. Most people in my generation will be saving up for retirement individually, and the math is fairly straightforward for saving up enough to maintain a standard of living in retirement.
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Yea like I mentioned in my original comment, most Americans aren't on track to a healthy retirement either, but it's often not due to lack of ability. Above a certain minimum amount of income a year, a number that's below median income for the US, most people can save if they choose to live below their means, but most people also won't. I'm not saying having minor kids during retirement works for most people-- just that it WOULD work for most if they wanted it to so it should not be automatically a bad idea as you suggested. Same as having kids in general regardless of age-- you should plan for it and be financially responsible about it.
This is wonderful. I hope you two raise your child/ren to be a thoughtful human being too!
My husband and I waited until my late twenties (his early thirties). We have one paid off car, a house with lots of equity, went on some amazing trips together, and spent 7 years married before we finally had our son.
I’m so glad we waited. Money isn’t a constant worry for me. The biggest worry I have is which school to send him to when the time comes.
There is definitely a better time to have children and typically your very early twenties (or god forbid your teens) is not it.
thank you for being decent
That's sort of my rationale towards everything: idiots accomplish this all the time, how hard can it be?
Every year, many dumb people graduate from College. You can too!
It makes things less terrifying. People who don't even know the local language can go to airports and not catastrophically fail at air travel, how hard can it be for a rational person to succeed?
Really takes the anxiety over new situations right out of things.
I really don't understand this outcome. I waited until I was making $200k/yr, with no debt and my wife was able to take a year off. We planned the date and had family in town. Still the shit hit the fan. Didn't your kid keep you awake at night? I didn't get my first full night's sleep for at least 18 months. Was there no tension between you, your wife, and your families about how a child ought to be raised? I don't think any of the relationships I had before my son was born will ever be the same again.
Raising a child exceeded my difficulty expectations by at least 5x, and I had some experience watching a much younger sibling come into the world.
I don't want to seem like I'm complaining. I wouldn't trade the experience for the world, and I could hardly be more happy to have my son in my life. He's four now and has the most wonderful personality. All the hard work seems to have paid off too, he's very independant, and apparently the best student in his preschool class. He can ski (turning, stopping, parallel, even small jumps) and ride a bicycle and he loves healthy food.
But my god was the experience difficult. So much so that even though my wife and I want a sibling for him, we can't bring ourselves to do it all again.
I just don't understand how you could describe the process as easy.
Sure, the sleep deprivation sucks for a while, but we just rubbed some tough on it and got through that part. We knew it would be bad, so it's not like it was any great surprise.
As far as conflict, there really wasn't much. My mother is hands-off to the point of me feeling neglected, and I was blessed with in-laws who were adamant about not getting in the way of our household. My wife and I agreed on all of these issues philosophically, which we had talked about before we ever started trying for kids. And we have a relationship where when we disagree, we just talk about it like freaking adults and consider each other's opinions as valid.
Wow I’m sorry his early years were so difficult. My husband and I have had some tension but we were married a long time before having a baby and were determined to keep lines of communication open.
I’m sorry your families were troublesome. They should be there to help and not be a burden themselves. Sometimes it can be easier not having them around and letting just the parents and baby learn to live with each other. :)
I'm definitely too old for this but here goes...
Can you adopt me?
I'm gonna be 35 by the time I have accomplished these things.
And there’s nothing wrong with that
Dealing with a newborn is hard no matter how comfortable you are in life (unless you're wealthy enough to not be working or hire a full time au pair). I don't care who you are, going to work on 2 hours of sleep consistently isn't fun.
Au pairs are actually one of the more affordable child care options. They are not required to be paid the minimum wage. You might be thinking of a live-in nanny, which are more costly.
My wife and I waited until we both had established, stable careers, all of our debts paid off, had gone on several nice vacations together, had a lot of equity built up in a house through aggressive paying down of the mortgage
Please stop. I cannot be more erect.
This is what I plan to do with my SO. He's a doctor and I'm a dental hygienist. I want to travel to a few countries and buy a nice car and build a small version of my dream home (nothing fancy) before I have kids. You wouldn't believe how many people tell us to just get to it. Sorry but I don't want to feel like I made the wrong choice by having children when we weren't ready to and didn't gain the experiences we want to indulge in before bringing children into this world.
My wife and I waited until we both had established, stable careers, all of our debts paid off, had gone on several nice vacations together, had a lot of equity built up in a house through aggressive paying down of the mortgage, and had achieved the goals we felt driven to achieve but knew we wouldn't have the time for.
This feels like the other extreme end of the spectrum.
how old were you? i went to medical school - not reasonable to wait for debts to be paid off and to go on all the vacations we're hoping to have - but I'm curious what age people outside of the medical fields reach those goals
We started when we were 28. Being a doctor does change the equation pretty significantly, but I feel like there are opportunities to make enough money in your field that the student loan debt isn't a heavy burden. Still worth hitting hard and paying off with a few extra years of frugality, but I figure once you're done with residency, that's kind of a good time to start.
There was a moment where I felt guilty not having my first child till I was 26 and well established. Seeing the life I can provide for them now makes me glad I waited. I had to get on my kids the other day for being too spoiled. It's a weird sort of pride to have that discussion with your children. Kind of an odd mix of pride and frustration.
Totally thought you said "downvote ourselves wholly to raising them" lol
Sounds like the perfect team, I'm truly happy for you.
Same. 31 for first kid and 34 for the second. We both have good jobs, a good portion of the house paid off, out of debt l, and it was still a tough decision.
Can I ask how old you both were?
We started trying to have kids when we were 28-29. We just had our third and last one at 35.
Awww! I was curious because I'm 24 and he's 30 and we will probably try in a couple yearsm. Congrats!!!
That's cool! Best of luck to you guys!!
As I was reading the first paragraph I worried you were going to say you waited too long and weren't able to conceive.
We did the same. There is a definite downside to this, though: we are unlikely to be alive for very long after our grandkids are born. Even less so if our children make the same choices we did.
Frankly I'm holding thumbs for a teenage pregnancy.
Thank you for this
The problem is that the significantly increased risk of congenital defects occurring when having children later in life.
It's not as significant as conventional wisdom would have you believe, and there's always a risk no matter what your age is. Regardless, there are new tests that can detect genetic abnormalities in the first trimester without an increased risk of miscarriage, making the ability to terminate much easier. There are benefits and drawbacks to having a baby at any age.
Take your story and now add that one person can’t have kids because they waited too long. This happens to people in their 30s.
Just adding perspective
Do people ever mistake you as your kids’ grandparents?
Hah, you just made me remember my dad getting mistaken for my grandfather occasionally when I was little.
My dad was 36 when I was born, and graying. By the time I was five or so, his hair was completely silver (he's 62 now and it's totally white, it's honestly an awesome color). Other than his hair, he always looked his age, but it didn't stop people from assuming I was his grandson.
I haven't thought about that for a long time.
my father was in his 60s when he had me. i got that ALL the time!
What...??? Mid 30's is such a normal age to have a kid, why would you even ask that?
How do you know they are in their mid 30s?
Nah, we both look like kids.
Fucking wisdom right here.
Too bad wisdom is my dump stat
Me too, thanks
I think that's a more accurate phrase.
Yeah, and this is what (our) parents absolutely refuse to hear. Would I ideally like kids? Probably? But maybe when I know that in 6 months I'm going to have a roof and bills all comfortably paid and a steady career? Uncertainty and instability is the worst place for a kid to grow up. That's what I grew up in, and it stunted the fuck out of me.
As long as you don't have any major health problems, wait till your 30's. Your 20's should be for you to grow as an adult, and enjoy life for a bit before expanding your team. Edit: Too many words.
the right time is just the slightly less wrong time.
This. What the family is saying is true, about waiting until 100% ready, but that doesn't mean do it when 1% ready.
Had my first kid at 35. I am so so glad we waited and if it was advisable medically I might have waited longer. I got to establish a career and spend my twenties and early thirties on friends and hobbies and learning fun things.
I'm going to use this line on my mom when she tells me it's never the right time to have kids!
Bbbbbuut it should be mentioned that the later woman waits to have a child the more likely be is to have medical issues(minor stuff mostly like asthma). I realize in the 21st century this is far less of a problem but it is still there. So I'm not saying the chances are huge but there is enough of a difference to acknowledge.
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I disagree. There is definitely a right time. The right time is satisfied when: 1) I want kids, and 2) I have the capacity to raise kids.
It's just hard to satisfy clause 2. It isn't something that never happens, though.
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Absolutely. It is really easy to change your capacity from "we need to have a 3 bedroom place" to "we need to own a 3 bedroom place" and just keep raising the bar of what it means to have satisfied clause 2. A great one that really defeats people is "we need to be out of debt first". Most parents don't have zero debt, so it really isn't something you need in order to raise kids.
It may not be.. the right time 🎶
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I don't get why people seem to forget adoption is a thing, too. With having kids you gain...an ego boost? I guess?
I've seen very pure parents, who really love having raised an independent human, but man that's just not for me.
Well technically once you are in your late 30, having its somewhat late to have kids. Of course, the number one thing to look at when having kids is financial stability and all that stuff, but if you are unfortunate enough to still be in such a position when you are middle aged, then it is probably a little late to have kids as being older has health risks for your kids and of course, you will die when your kids are young too. This exaggeration becomes more relevant the older you get.
If we had waited for the "right" time, we would never have kids. Instead, we waited for the best time under the circumstances, which basically boils down to being comfortable and if shit goes south and one of us loses our job, we have to cut back on a lot, but it is still manageable.
This is the truest statement on here.
this x 100000
This is accurate and a much better way of what I was going to say.
If my wife and I waited until we could absorb 2+ more little parasitic money leeches that are children. We'd just not have kids because we'd both be too old to get them out of the house.
There's never a perfect time but there sure is a right time.
someone gild this
Never a right time? Fuck it, not doing it then. That simple.
This is the most accurate statement to this. No one will ever say. I am so comfortable financially it’s time for kids.
Actually people say that all the time. Most parents I know had steady jobs, a home that they could afford and a fair amount of savings before they started trying for kids. It's only responsible.
I mean when we had my son I wasn’t in amazing financial stability but I make it work. I mean in fairness we both worked and had a house I guess I could say I was financially stable in this case. Then again it could be just me thinking that there is never enough money to be TRULY financially comfortable in my eyes!
Wrong. It happens often.
There's never a right time, but there sure as shit is a very very wrong time.
There's definitely a right time.
This
I know plenty of people who waited for the right time, and found it in their late 20's and early 30's.
Same, but late 30s instead.
I'm 29, still got debt and a lot of things I want to do. Late 30's is my target as well.
31 and poor. I couldn't do that to a kid. As much as I'd love kids, I just don't see how I could give it a life it would deserve at all.
That's the mature and selfless thing to do, you don't need to "keep up with the Jones'" and get kids just because people say you need them. There's so many amazing things to do in the world that you'll miss out on especially if you're poor and have children too soon. This year instead of having kids, I'm going to rent a sports car and take laps at the Nurburgring!
I hope you don't mind me asking, but my partner and I have decided to have kids in our mid-late 30's. My family are all freaking out about this due to 'being too old to raise kids, etc etc...'. How have you found the age?
My folks were both in their 40's when they had me. It's worked out fine.
My mom was late twenties/early thirties when she had me and my younger brother, and she managed quite well with us too. I think it's only going to get better for "late" parents as medical technology improves; people are already hitting their prime later and later in life.
My SO and I are 27 this year, and we're waiting 2-3 years more to have kids. By that time our student loans will be nonexistent, and we'll hopefully have purchased our first home with a small nest egg ready to go. It's taken a while for us to get to this point (and we've still got a ways to go), but fiscal responsibility is huge for both of us. I grew up poor as dirt, so giving my kids the stability of financial security is especially important for me.
So far so good. I'm 40 now with her 37 and we have a 5 month old. I have 3-4 sets of friends that will all have children under the age of 1 while being anywhere from 38-44 years old.
We honestly weren't ready when were were 30. We live in NYC and enjoyed being irresponsible with our going out and living in tiny spaces.
Her concerns were primarily having to do with being a high risk pregnancy at her age. Everything went fine though. In a year when we try to have another, I'm hoping for similar results. We also got a bigger place so the though of raising a kid in 1BR isn't scary as shit. By the time he's school aged maybe we can think about a houses in good school districts and all that other stuff.
Do what works best for your family. If that means waiting because of finances or wanting to get some great trips in before having to put them off for the foreseeable future, then wait.
Thank you for the reply. For us it’s life / career / finance focused, we want to achieve certain things and bring a child into the world when we think it’s the right time to do so and that’s the catalyst for our decision making. I appreciate you taking the time to respond!
If you live in a city and attend anything baby related you'll realise that's when urbanites have kids now. Kids at 30 us the new norm I'd you're not in smalltownsville
Pregnant and 38 here. Is 100% the right time.
The age itself isn't an issue because we're both very heathy and active. The problem with your mid to late 30s is that lots of people weigh too much, exercise too little, and eat like crap by that age. I'm having a way easier time with pregnancy than some of my unfit friends. I know it sounds holier-than but it's so true. Also, the financial security is really going to help because we're not worried about the little extras that make life easier.
But mostly, stay fit and you'll be fine.
Also get genetic screening if it'll change any decisions you need. A lot of problems related to late pregnancy have nothing to do with general health
What do you mean by genetic screening?
General screening for chromosomal diseases early in pregnancy. trisomy are far more common once a woman is 35 or older (down syndrome, for example, is a trisomy, but a viable one). Here is the Canadian guidline for genetic screening. In Canada, certain screens are covered if you are within certain risk factors (age or family history are usually the indicators). The big one is whether or not you'd consider terminating a child with down-syndrome or a similar illness, which is valid.
Things likely will work out well, but there are pregnancy complications associated with age that are not caused by being overweight.
Late 30's if getting iffy, biologically, for the female .
I waited until I was 30. It’s nice being financially sound before taking on a kid. It’s also meant more time with my kid instead of having to work more while she’s at daycare.
Shit 32 here are we supposed to be financially sound by now? Welp..
I'll be turning 30 this year. I just now have a job that affords me disposable income. My wife and I always wanted kids, but I couldn't imagine having them before now.
Honestly, the people I've known who waited seem much happier with their home life than the people who did it young.
Agreed. Based on my own personal experience, your 20s should be used for figuring out who you are, who you're going to be, and learning life lessons. Also having fun with friends and enjoying life.
I think a person's whole life should be about having fun with friends and enjoying life. If having kids prevents that, then a person probably shouldn't have kids.
You can still do that bit it's different and your priorities shift. You can't drop everything to go on a 5 day road trip slash bender with no notice anymore. Things just need to more planned.
I think you misunderstand what I am saying. If having kids isn't something you think you would find enjoyable, don't do it.
Gotcha. I agree
my folks didn't have kids until my mom was 40
I waited for the right time and it just never came. I'm 33 and that's past the age I would have felt comfortable bearing children, and even now I couldn't afford to bring a person into this world. That's okay. I'd much rather feel secure and childless than have a kid I felt constant misery about not being able to give a good life to.
Edit: Yes, I realize many women bear children well into their 40's and do just fine. I just happen to have medical issues that make the risks very high past age 30. If everything turned out perfectly, I'd struggle but probably be okay. But if RNG wasn't in our favors, it'd be devastating. Not worth the risk.
No disrespect intended, I think your choice is really responsible and smart, but I have to say:
33 is definitely not too late to have kids. My mom was 34 and my dad was 36 when I was born.
I don't think age really becomes a prohibiting factor until 40 or so, and even then I don't think it's too late exactly, just, you'd need to think carefully about it lol
I didn't say I was too old to have kids, mind you. I said that 33 is older than I felt comfortable physically bearing children. This is mostly due to my own personal genetic and health concerns.
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We've had a few friends go through early menopause. It's rough. One had an embryo donation and the other had an egg donor. Both difficult choices I'm sure but their kids are doing well noe.
Your choice. I don't consider 33 to in any way be too late to have kids, though, not even close.
If you don't want to have kids anymore then cool, but how on earth is 33 too late??? I'm mind blown by comments like this. There are pros and cons to both having kids earlier or having them later and you may prefer one of the options over the other, but seeing it as a prohibiting factor is unreasonable. You still have a good few years (at least) to become a mother if you wanted.
I didn't say I was too old to have kids, mind you. I said that 33 is older than I felt comfortable physically bearing children. This is mostly due to my own personal genetic and health concerns.
I'm sorry then, I misunderstood.
I commented above, but I'm pregnant at 38. You have 5 years or more! (Obviously this is tongue in cheek and not medical advice. You may have other concerns... but had I hadn't even met my husband at 33 so I'm quite glad I hadn't "called it").
Yeah, I have medical concerns that make the risks past age 30 higher than normal, and I'm just not about to risk it for a child I can't even totally afford if they were healthy and perfect, let alone if RNG weren't in our favors.
Yep, same here. Study hard until 24. Work until 30 or so. When you are tired of your career (usually happens at 30 or so), make kids.
I was 30 and wife 25 when we had our first. Worked out well.
"If you wait for the right time you'll never have kids!"
No. No, no, and no. My wife and I waited until our early 30s. Our kid came into the world with married parents, a house that was bought (with a reasonable mortgage relative to income), I made enough that the wife could stay at home full time to raise our kid. We don't drive high end cars, but we have time and energy for our child. We get out and do fun things, I don't work rotating shifts so that they never see me, etc.
Condoms were the best thing that happened to our family, birth control WORKS.
I'm currently having to regularly use condoms for the first time (previous long term girlfriends were all on the pill or had the implant) and Jesus I hate them. Can't find a single one that doesn't have an elastic band that hurts. But you know what would be worse? A damn kid. I'd batter my Johnson in broken glass before I went bareback and had to take care of a tiny person. I'm working away money to get a vasectomy because frankly, if I ever do reach a point where I'd want to raise a child, I'm going to adopt one old enough to wipe it's own ass.
Try different brands, and if that doesn't work, you can get custom sized ones.
Yeah, I've tried pretty much all the grocery store brands, but I've looked into myonefit or whatever the company is called, probably going to order the test pack this weekend. But honestly, the ring aside, condoms just kindve suck. I finish maybe 1 time in 3, and it's starting to make my girlfriend feel bad. So I'm just going to get the vasectomy here in the next few months, we both got tested when we started getting serious, so once I come back negative, fuck condoms.
Sure, that's always an option. FWIW though, I was dead set against kids until I hit about 30, then changed my tune. Not saying everyone will, just my experience. I'd figure if you hit low 30s and don't want them, clip it. Or you can also save some for artificial later.
I don't particularly see the point in waiting until my early thirties. I don't want kids at all now, although I accept that I might at some point in the future. But I don't think I'll ever want kids that are biologically mine. I never met my biological father, so I doubt adopting a kid would bother me in that respect, and considering the abnormally high levels of immune disease and addiction in the maternal side of my family, if rather have a kid with different genetics than my own.
Sure, and that's fine, everyone has their own ways of going about life. I'm just saying opinions and attitudes can change, even if you don't think they will. If on the outside chance you did change your mind, you can get it "reversed" as you still produce the sperm, but it's costly (and adoption is costly too).
Either way, best of luck to you. They have a method of vasectomies that isn't nearly as invasive, and you're up and moving much quicker now. I'm definitely glad I got mine.
Interesting. I always wanted kids until I got into my 30’s, and have progressively been more and more like “fuck all that”. Probably had a lot to do with seeing my friends have them and seeing how much it took over their lives. Great for people that want to do that; it’s just not for me, and I’m glad I didn’t come to that realization AFTER having a kid/kids.
Was it a nice someday thing or you wanted them then and it never worked out?
A little of both. Never really have ad a relationship with anyone whom I was interested in that long term of a commitment to, so that kind of dragged on so long that all of a sudden I was in my mid-30's having to take stock of where I was currently at in life.
Plus, as I started progressing in my career and slowly going from paycheck to paycheck to a phenomenal salary with lot of expendable income, even after savings (doesn't make me better than anyone else; just relevant to the story), I've been able to take multiple trips overseas, some by myself for weeks, and they've enriched my life so much that I can't imagine ever doing something to jeopardize continuing that.
I come back home after seeing all of these amazing places and things, and see my friends struggling to pay insane daycare costs, going to stupid birthday parties that they don't want to go to, dealing with drama with other parents over the most insane shit, paying ridiculous medical bills, changing diapers, not sleeping, dealing with typical teenager "I hate you guys (despite you giving up everything else in life for me for the past 13 years)" attitudes, and I finally just decided "Fuck that. Ima keep doin me, because that's what makes ME happy. What they're doing would have the opposite effect."
I've discussed it at length with my married friends. They are all jealous of my level of freedom and all say that they can definitely appreciate my perspective and support it, but that their children have enriched their lives in a way that they can't explain, despite all of that unpleasantness. Both lifestyles are completely acceptable and valid. Each person's life is their own. You only get ~75ish years on this planet, best to make it count in the way most meaningful to each individual, iyam.
TL:DR - My opinion is that everyone should make life choices that make them personally feel happy and fulfilled. Kids aren't in that equation for me, but if they are for you, great. The human race requires reproduction by someone, lol.
That makes sense. The only thing I'd say as a counter is to just have one kid. We did that, then I got clipped. We regularly travel, with my income I can send the wife and kid to see extended family, hit fun attractions for a mid-week romp (plane, car rental, etc). We don't live lavishly at home, but we do get to hit up new places every couple months or so.
I look at what you're doing as replicable if you had a SAHM to help, as you have the income, it sounds, to support such a thing. But of course, you may just prefer the solitary life now. Just saying that you got the career/money lined up, it's not an either-or proposition. Just one of those things your friends who either had multiple kids (because I can't imagine traveling and being outnumbered by kids), or had them early can't do.
May or may not be useful to you but I'm of decent girth and I find that Durex Extra Sensitive does pretty well. Obviously nothing is as good as nothing is, but they let heat and sensation through pretty well compared to other things I've tried while also not constricting my pecker to any uncomfortable level.
I haven't tried that particular kind. My main issue isn't sensation, any extra thin condom does ok at that, it's the elastic ring. Some brands are better than others, but every one I've tried is tight to the point of being painful in most positions.
I get what you mean. This one has been better for me than most of the others in that regard, so it may be worth a shot. As always, your milage may vary.
So, I discovered this year's later - though you have to be careful because I theory it can make them slip off, but a shot of lube inside the condom can be a game changer... I'm not sure what you can do if it slips off but some lube in there makes it feel a lot better...
Are you both clear medically and if so, has she tried VCF? it can be pricey, but it's essentially like a Listerine breath strip of spermicide for your vagina. I've only had one partner in my life and near a decade in, VCF is our go-to.
Edit- typos.
Yup, both tested clean, and I'm not sure, I've certainly never heard of it. I'll talk to her about it.
VCF stands for the "Vaginal Contraceptive Film" and I haven't had a scare in 9 years. Definitely worth looking into!
Try skyns
First I tried on my quest, no joy.
Condoms were the best thing that happened to our family, ~~birth control~~ Family Planning WORKS.
FTFY - a lot of people see birth control as not wanting children ever but Family Planning is possibly the most responsible thing any of us could do.
a lot of people see birth control as not wanting children ever
That's the first time I've heard that myself. What region of the world/US is that a common view in? (I'm west coast/Great Lakes midwest)
I'm in Texas. Land of the Talibangicals, Ya'll Queda and a very traditional hispanic family where children are seen as gifts from god and my birth control is clearly a product of the devil influencing me to reject my gifts from god. It's about branding here. Every time I rephrase it as Family Planning people change their tone. I don't know if I ever want children but I sure as shit know I don't want them now. I want a family but maybe not give up my body for it. There are lots of babies that need families to adopt them so if I save my resources for when I'm ready I can either have a kid myself or adopt/foster one day. Hence, Family Planning.
No family is a plan
Hell, I let a spider build up webs in my shed. I don't have many real friends to call as family but (s)he's one.
hvað
Is early 30s really waiting a long time?
Where I grew up, if you don't have a wife or kids by 22 or 23, some people start to wonder if there's something wrong with you.
Having Mormon family members is a special kind of hell only because they're all so family-oriented. I've nothing against the concept of their religion, just... Jeez, don't push your young adults toward getting married and having kids so young. So many get married around 21-23, with kids soon after.
Where is that? I feel like here in my country you would still have some "teen pregnancy" type stigma associated at the early 20s.
Birth control doesn't always work - thankfully though when mine failed (nexplanon - yay got to be apart of that like .01% who's implant migrated!) I had a good support system back home, a home that was mine and a good life plan and -thankfully- only a semester away from graduation.
If it had happened earlier in my life I would've been royally fucked. Definitely didn't want kids right now, hence the 3-year implant, and definitely didn't want to have them with the person I was literally about to break it off with. Probably wouldn't have had time to finish my degree or got the job I did. I just got lucky I was set in other areas in my life and not some teen or young 20 year old (ended up having her a month after turning 25).
I'm thinking of getting Nexplanon in the future because of its high success rate... Man that sucks.
I'm not so much waiting for the right time, just waitimg for a time that doesn't feel quite this wrong
I'd like to be able to feed the children I have. You know, kinda high on my priority list.
"If you wait for the right time you'll never have kids!"
When I hear that, I'm just like: "right, that is in fact what happens if the right time never happens; what's your point here?"
Having kids at the wrong time for the sake of making sure you have kids is exactly the opposite of good parenting.
I identify with the comments so much. I would love kids now. I would also love to be able to pay my mortgage each month. 2-3 years from now I can do both. So why does everyone seem to be so offended when I say I want to wait a couple more years until we have a little more money and can pay off the student loan debt?
Honestly, if you and your SO are on the same page, fuck everyone else.
Either that or heavily imply there’s a fertility problem, which will a) make them shut up and feel bad and also b) increase their overall satisfaction when you do have kids.
"If you wait for the right time you'll never have kids!"
That's the plan right there. I'd rather keep my own money and do what I want to do, for the entirety of my life. If that makes me selfish, god damn does it feel good being selfish.
It's just preference man. Societal pressures attempt to make you feel bad if you don't want to have kids. I don't particularly want kids but you can never rule it out, if I fall deeply in love with a woman and she wants kids and we're financially stable I'd probably do so.
Being childfree is a perfectly acceptable life choice.
It's kind of like the whole "Why aren't you buying a house yet?!?" thing. Because, after high school, you could raise a family of four in a house with guaranteed lifetime employment with a pension. I have to go into debt for college loans and have no real hope of even taking care of two people AND buying a house.
And you want me to have a kid on top of that?
Good. We don't need more people
Actually that's not entirely true, population decline comes with issues as well.
"If you wait for the right time to jump off a bridge, you'll never jump off a bridge!"
Broke is only half the equation. What if your SO turns out to hate you? What if you have wild oats to sew? What about traveling??
Heck yes to this comment! As a child of divorce that was constantly used as a pawn in the divorce, all the money in the world (and therapy) didn't matter when my parents openly hated each other.
This is totally not true. You will just be an older parent. Source: 41 year old parent of a 3 year old and 16 month old.
"And whose fault is it that there will never be a good time, hmmm, baby boomers?"
My wife and I waited until our mid- (her) / late- (me) thirties to have kids. We were very comfortable financially, and yet are still finding it tough both financially and in general to raise two kids. I can't imagine doing it ten years earlier, with hundreds of thousands less in the bank.
Tell people trying to rush you to shove off. Have kids when you're ready, and not before. And if you're never ready, that's fine too.
ikr, if my eggs dry up oh well, i'm not interested in getting pregs. I rather adopt, there are so many kids with no home instead.
"If you wait for the right time you'll never have kids!"
Sounds good. Not everybody wants or needs to have children, and there's no reason to push people into something when you've just admitted that it's the wrong time.
There's never a right time to go on welfare and drain the system!
Maybe people not waiting for the right time is one of the reasons everything is so fucked right now. Don't give into those people's inability to reason. Break the cycle.
I mean, if you really think about it all of the world's problems come from broken humans, humans typically become broken when there is a problem with the parents/household/community etc. Poor people pump out kids like it's their goddamn job and raise kids in a completely chaotic environment, this breaks humans in some cases. If everyone had loving caring parents and a stable environment to grow up in there would be A LOT fewer broken humans. Limiting the amount of broken humans I think would really improve the world, but it's pretty much impossible to achieve this. You can't stop unfit people from having children and we're veering into a dystopian eugenics talk.
You can teach people to make better choices. You can admonish people who give bad advice like the above statement. Overall over the course of history society has become more stable and less broken. Things like eugenics are the result of impatience. They happen because people want overnight change instead of incremental change. You break the cycle by spreading awareness.
"If you wait for the right time you'll never have kids!"
Never having kids is a perfectly legitimate life choice (/r/childfree). More people should be aware that they CAN make that choice and be encouraged to do so if that is what works best for them and their lives.
Thank you, I was wondering when someone would tag that subreddit.
Being childfree is amazing! I can't wait to be sterilized and never have to 'worry' every month if I might be knocked up. I don't hate kids, I love my friends and their spawn but none for me thanks. My folks are slowly realizing that when I said I never wanted kids back when I was in my twenties that I meant it. No I didn't change and thanks for the guilt trip about grandbabies.
Then there is no right time. Period.
Emotional + Financial Stability + 2 loving adult humans = right time if those humans want to.
True! I'd add stable housing too.
This is my family's favorite thing to say to me. Maybe I don't want kids, Meemaw, jfc.
"If you wait for the right time you'll never have kids!"
Kind of my objective here. I made the decision years ago that the right time for me to have (biological) children was never.
Is that such a bad thing, really? Kids aren't that great.
I don’t exactly believe this. Our plan was for 30-32 to try (But I got overly excited, and we started trying at 26-27) I got pregnant at 28-29, and we have separate cars, a house, insurance, plenty of savings...This is a good time in our lives for this guy to come along. I have had like MAYBE 1-2 freakouts about “my youth being over”, but I’m 29, and I go to bed by 11 at the latest every night, and our best date nights are “sitting at home, with some drinks, watching movies”. Having a baby will always be HARD, but there are totally better times than others that will make it significantly easier, and only you know when those times are, if at all. No one HAS to have kids, and I hope everyone remembers that, despite overly antsy “grandparents”.
Imagine if someone tried that bullshit argument to justify having a dog they couldn't properly care for.
Everyone would be immediately talking about the responsibility of being a pet owner.
I usually hear "There is never a right time, just do it."
That doesn't even make sense to me anyway. These days around 30 is absolutely the right time. I know many don't agree but having kids in your 20s just seems idiotic. It cripples your ability to actually do things during the prime period of your life where you have the easiest time to actually just do whatever you want.
There's not always a right time, but there for damn sure is a time that's better than another, and this is not that time.
Hey don’t say bitch that’s mean
I think there's a reason that fertility rates are going down in NA.
The people who are telling you that are morons that shouldn't have had children. Lol
I once listened a radio quiz show where a contestant called in and the host was interviewing her before the quizzing her. She was a middle aged woman so of course instead of asking about what kinda work she does, he asks how many children she has. When she said she doesn’t have any kids, the host was all “you DON’T??? W—why NOT?”and she just said “it’s just not something I ever chose to do. The time for me and my husband to have done that has passed and we never weren’t interested before that time had passed so yeah it just never happened” and the host seemed all put off by her answer.
"If you wait for the right time you'll never have kids"
That's what i'm going for
I get that everytime I visit my family. I've been married for 5 years with no plans for kids. Hell... I teach kids for a living. I have student loans and rent and all kinds of other things to be paying. I don't want kids and not sure I ever will... Stop asking me.
Good. Who says I want any?
"If you wait for the right time you'll never have kids!"
Also, so? Then maybe I just won't have kids. It's not a fucking life requirement for fucks sake.
Oh, man, I got this one last weekend.
We just spend a shitload of money on a wedding, a down-payment for a house, and a kitchen remodel, can we at least have a year to replenish our non-emergency fund back up to where we're comfortable before people start wondering how often we're fucking without protection?!
Because there is never a right time to have kids.
Don’t have kids. They suuuuuck.
You're supposed to live and raise children in poverty, silly! It builds character!
Tell them to stop trying to live vicariously through the kids they want you to have and 50 is the new 40, bitch.
"If you wait for the right time you'll never have kids!"
As if this was a bad outcome for life. People should seriously stop having kids altogether more often.
And speaking of ethical things you can do to make the world a better place...
There's 7 billion god damn people on earth already and we have no shortage of babies. If you never have kids it won't be missed one bit.
People will say the same thing to you when you're not married. Money is big factor in divorce's. So you want 2 people who are generally broke and in debt to get married because you just want us too? Right.
I solved this by indexing children to the number of animals I'll allow in our house. She gets two freebies, then we need a kid for each additional pet.
To be fair, that’s an answer to an entirely different question.
That’s the answer for people who have their financials in order, but are being held up by other things. Promotions, bad economy, etc.
This reminds me of the having children when you're ready scene from Idiocracy.
I say this as someone with no interest in having kids: obviously don't have kids you can't support, but make sure you're thinking long-term. If you want kids, find a way to make it happen. You don't want to reach a point where you're out of debt, but too old to start a family. That kind of shit is just toxic and will eat away at you, like being wrongfully imprisoned, or waking up from a coma, having lost years of your life.
"Fine, I'll never have kids"
I'm 32, make a 6 digits, and I still don't have enough time/money to do all the things I (plus my wife) want to do. Kids won't help that at all.
I heard this, but I'm 32, married, and make good money. I'm ready to have kids we pulled the goalie.
Its a bullshit claim that you can't properly plan out a time to have kids. It just has to be a priority. And if they're not a priority, then I don't think you should have them anyway.
Me af
It's also not true at all. Obviously there's a sweet spot where you aren't battling hormones and genetics as much but most peoples lives are lot more settled late 20s and early 30s than early 20s. Have a plan for sure but there's no hurry. Most of your adult life will be with children if you have then, enjoy a little selfish time and get established first; makes you less resentful and honestly having kids is inherently a super selfish persuit anyway
ave much less than you go first on line at the store. Put the shopping cart back. Don't litter. Hold doors for people. Use your manners. Compliment people. Think about things from other's perspectives.
This is an absolute horseshit saying. That the type of shit people who fucked up and had kids early or didn't want say to try and rationalize the situation they are in. My wife and I waited until we were ready and it's been absolutely great. We waited until it financially made sense and we had spent time together as a couple. People kept telling me this and I told them to fuck right off.
My ex often used a similar line about there never being a “perfect” time to get engaged to try to pressure me into proposing way too soon. Good riddance.
Here's how I looked at it. I'll never be "ready" - being ready for kids is completely subjective to the parents who are bringing the kids into the world and not the entitled and selfish relatives who can't stop trying to micromanage their kids lives.
My wife and I decided we were at a point where we were as ready as we could be and now we're comfortably raising our first of a potential 2 or 3. When are we having them? We have a sort of plan, but it's our decision. When we're as ready as we'll be.
So you got scammed out of kids by the promise that going to college would make you better off. That really sucks :/
You could frame it that way yes. My economical conditions would be much better if you didn't have to go into massive debt to get a college degree.
Im not condoning having a kid if you can’t properly take care of it or are in a really bad place, but sometimes waiting too long comes back to bite you. I know it’s more common now to have kids in tie 30’s, but it is def harder and you may actually never have kids. I know some friends that waited for the right time but it was unfortunately too late. There is a big difference, usually, between the reproductive system of a 23 year old woman and a 33 year old woman. So the only advice I would give is if you know in your heart you have found the right person and truly want kids at some point, then try and figure out a way to have them earlier if you can. Life too short to worry about debt all the time. Debt can always be paid off, file for bankruptcy etc. at some point you can’t always have kids and it’s a regret you can’t fix.
Well someone stupid enough to pay for college shouldn't have kids anyway.
Uhhhh, what?
How's that college degree job that the degree got you going? Dumbass.
sounds like theyre the ones being selfish, wanting you to put yourself in a terrible position just so they get to say “yeah i have a niece/nephew/grandkids” without actually needing to do any work themselves
You wanna hear selfish, check out what my husband's aunt literally said to me at the 2016 Christmas party- "You have to have a baby because we need a baby in the family to play with!"
I couldn't even form a response to it at the time because I was so shocked at the complete lack of sense or awareness of that statement. "You have to destroy your body, put your life at risk, have your vagina ripped apart, saddle yourself with a lifelong responsibility and financial commitment you can't afford, possibly ruin your marriage, and somehow raise a competent adult from infancy, giving up pretty much all of your free time and extra income, so that I can look at your baby for a few hours per year for the 2ish years it's still a baby, at which point I will begin pressuring you to do it all again so there's another baby to look at!"
I'd offer to get them some adoption papers next year if they feel that's such an important addition to the family.
After a few minutes I told them that they can foster some babies if they need a baby around. They huffed and said it's not the same.
Damn right it's not the same. One is an immense, life-altering decision for them and the other is basically a party toy to them.
Kids can be fantastic and amazing and adorable when they're just visiting, but even the amazing ones are a double edged sword when raising them.
Exactly.
Yeah... Cause that would be work for them!
Sad to see people have such an ego that they think they need something to look at and point out little facial structures in, thinking "oh that feature looks like my feature!"
Their generation really can't comprehend how difficult it is now, to find a well paying job or an affordable house and not be saddled with a mountain of student loan debt.
Oh god, I'm so glad my brother and my SIL have taken all the pressure from grandchildren off of me. I'm not even ready to commit to a long term serious relationship again yet and I'm really enjoying the luxury of selfishness and being on my own.
I am definitely a nurturer and one day I think I do want a family, but I'm sure as shit not pushing them out and I've never been more certain about that aspect. There are plenty of children in foster care who desperately need a good mom already.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who married into a crazy family. My MIL has been begging for grandchildren since we got married 6 years ago. We’ve explained countless times that 1) we don’t want kids and 2) even if we did, we’re broke. She literally told us to pop one out and just get on welfare. We didn’t need to be “financially ready”, otherwise we’d never have any. People are ridiculous.
Ugh, yeah. I told her (before she said the above line) that we can't afford it and she said "but in the next 5 years right?" Um WTF? I can't see the fucking future Brenda, never mind that I don't want kids.
Shoulda said “yeah if only I could return it after the lease is up”
at which point I will begin pressuring you to do it all again so there's another baby to look at!
-- and start criticizing your parenting choices and talk about not liking your first kid.
I don't think anyone should have kids if you truly want to expose your aunts true intentions and hypocrisy adopt and watch how she treats the adopted kid
Thing is, all 4 of her kids are adopted. She's infertile.
So that's why she wants you to have kids
Yes because for reasons I can't wrap my head around, since she can't give birth, I must do so, regardless of whether or not that's the right decision for me.
No offense I'm glad you're aunt can't pro create then she sounds like one of those people who would treat a biological child like property that she can brag about and not a person
Yep, most of my in-laws are like that.
Just tell her "If you're gonna keep on being both a cunt and a dick, why don't you go fuck yourself and have one?"
[deleted]
You don't know these people.
ETA: it was 100% not a joke and she went on for at least 45 minutes lecturing me on how it is my duty to give my husband children no matter what.
Dude. Chill out.
Spot on
My sister’s mother in law keeps pressuring her to have kids, even though my sister has emphatically stated that she doesn’t want any. It’s so obnoxious, especially since she already has several grandchildren. She tried to tempt my sister with an old rocking chair. Bitch, ain’t no one gonna tear up their vagina and get chained down with a kid they don’t want for some nasty-ass secondhand chair.
I literally can't think of anything that would make childbirth worth it to me (not to mention to actually raising a child part). Maybe a billion dollars but only if I get the full amount up front before I give birth. Even then...
is it possible to have one's own grandkids?
There was an article about a woman that was a surrogate for her son and dauther-in-law, so, yes?
hvað
I tell my family kids are a luxury item, not a necessity.
Shit, I might use this in the future.
Yeah this is the perfect response for when my in-laws say I have to have a baby!
Me too!
I live in London where house prices are outrageous. To me, having kids is the ultimate luxury item
That's sad. I'm not saying everyone has to reproduce, but you should be able to do it affordably if you do choose. I kinda think it's a part of the human experience.
It's a fundamental part of any organism's experience isn't it?
I live in Cheshire and despair at the house prices compared to what's across the county borders and the only think that makes me feel better about it is that it could be worse, I could be trying to buy a house in London.
Yeah my GF and I have worked out we need about 700K (about 1 million dollars for you Americans) for a 3 bed in a commutable area.
It’s either that or we change careers
Depending on the context of your comment, you're either a struggling young Londoner or a Tory MP.
I live in a city and I hate the suburbs. Also I'm not rich. Reason 1 for me to not want kids.
(Also I don't feel the need and my life is awesome the way it is.)
People who have lower standards regarding housing will populate your city and country with their kids, so you don't have to worry about your country not having enough people, even though your genetic line dies out.
The average cost to raise a child is north of $200k, in Canada and the US.
I'd rather have a Porsche tbh
Same. If I'm going to have a huge liability in my investment portfolio, I want it to go 200 mph and have a 10 cylinder engine.
So, a Carrera GT? Those are a bit more than 200k these days!
Edit: autocorrect
I wish! I was thinking more along the lines of a Huracan or an R8 :)
Haha this is funny but true.
Luxury item? Lol
Or punishment, whatever floats your boat.
I like your response.
or a income source depending on your specific income level.
Or depending on child labor laws.
He's perpetuating the racist "welfare queen" myth.
"welfare queen" is not a race.
By the late 1990s efforts of reforms targeting the AFDC program shifted to more nuanced forms of racism with claims that the program encouraged out-of-wedlock births, irresponsible fatherhood and intergenerational dependency.
I understand the overview of the article, but the above sentence about "nuanced racism" is complete garbage. Of the handful of welfare queens I know, not one of them is of African dissent. If anything I'm surprised people aren't calling being a welfare queen "white privilege".
I don't have solution, and I'm not saying welfare recipients are dead weight. It's just personally frustrating to me when I see one of my family members who has 3 kids with 3 different dads none of the dads in the kids lives. The state pays health insurance, daycare and school lunches for the kids, and she then has the balls to ask us when are we having another kid? Health insurance and daycare costs more than my mortgage. My wife would have to quit her job, and I'd have to take a substantial pay cut to "afford" another kid. We have a modest home, paid off older vehicles and a few luxury items, but it's not like I could pull another $900 a month out of my ass.
Or the not so racist child worker truth.
And the idea of welfare Queens is in no way tied to race. White trash scam benefits as much as anyone else.
You're correct. White people scam welfare programs, worker's comp, etc an order of magnitude more than any other group per capita in the US. But for the last several decades, the idea that poor women have babies just to collect state benefits has been a barely concealed jab at black women specifically. It's exactly the same thing as the Muslim terrorist vs mentally ill white person narrative every time there's a massacre. It's racist because white people do it more but are accused of it less and vice versa.
Careful with that.
I'm not saying its a bad "personal philosophy". But this starts down a very dark, very horrible line of reasoning when applied as such.
Afterall, luxuries are for only those who can afford them. Everyone else can either "afford" them or never have it. Just like healthcare....
To me, kids aren't even a luxury, because that word implies something that's actually desirable to have.
To some people it is. You can't expect everybody to all want the exact same thing.
No kids are human beings that should be treated with equal respect as people and not objects or bragging rights
I mean... They are necessary if we don't want civilization to end... Edit: whoa ok. Just saying. No reproduction=extinction.
That's evil also what if the child commits suicide or just drops dead before the parent guess what civilization didn't continue
The selfishness argument is one that blows my mind. You have to go through so much mental gymnastics to reason that no children = selfishness.
“How dare you prioritize the well-being of yourself and your partner over someone who does not exist!”
It's the crab mentality that makes this a sensible argument for some:
"Well that's selfish" = "I suffered through 18-20 years dealing with your bullshit, and I'm not gonna sit here and die before I see to it that you experience the same misery that I did with you!"
Yet. (/s)
The slightest changes in one’s life are likely to result in a different sperm meeting an egg in the future.
If I have a kid now, then the kid I would have had after getting my finances in order, will never be born.
By trying to force me to have kids now, you’re denying the child in my alternate timeline a chance at life. How could you be so selfish? /s
Your really an amazing person in I implore you to look up antinatilism I'm fed up with the people in this thread acting children need to be born especially for their sake it's selfish and sadistic no one even thinks about what the child may feel
It only exists if a parent takes an action to force it to exist. They won't ever exist if the parent doesn't make them
I know. I was just reiterating a sentiment I have heard previously.
Thank you people try to act like a child in a womb needs to be saved when I'm reality they just don't exist and frankly don't need to exist other than parents egocentric ideals and views
To be honest you’re prioritizing the well being of the someone who does not exist too. If the breadwinner of my family could have had me when they were a) 22 and making 35k a year in an unstable sales job or b) 30 and making 80k a year in a leadership position I’m gonna go ahead and take option b. Your children will be happier if you can provide for them better from a more stable position.
Or rather, not breeding IS above all, prioritizing the moral obligation to someone that isn't yet doomed to suffer anything at all.
A lot of people see it as "you want to use your time and money for yourself" rather than "I don't want to begrudgingly raise a kid, which will cause them to have resentment issues". It's just a lack of empathy.
hell yeah I want to use my time and money for myself, its my time and money!!
If that makes me selfish then yeah, I'm selfish
Damn straight!
"you want to use your time and money for yourself"
I do not see a problem with this whatsoever. Not to go all JG Wentworth on you, but "It's my money, and [sic] I'm going to use it how I want!"
I agree, but I can understand how some people might see at as selfish, generally those people are just jealous you're enjoying life your way rather than conceding to societies pressures.
877 CASH NOW
I mean I've heard that perspective, it's just baffling to me that people would still encourage it when they can see that the person in question doesn't even have much time or money for themselves to begin with. It's not like those resources appear out of thin air.
Honestly anyone who says you need to have oils especially because they want you to have it shouldn't ever have them
It's not even that it's why would u use my money on something that doesn't exist and I have no obligation of making exist on top of the fact that is it my call to make it exist
I think some people think that there's this deity who puts souls into babies so they can experience the physical universe he made for them. By not using the body he made for you to make more bodies, the deity has no where to put all the souls that he wants to give bodies to. So selfish for not helping the all powerful deity and his soul pets!
Bizarrely enough this was the exact sort of way I imagined it when I was very little and still got dragged along to church. I've been fortunate enough not to encounter anyone yet in real life who thinks this way.
This might explain why people breed because they think they are saving their chikd
Yes, exactly. I have been called selfish for not having children too. I don't get it. Plus it's a dick thing to say to someone.
I don't want children. We don't need more people (isn't 7 billion enough?!). I am reasonably certain that I wouldn't be a great dad. Mrs. Darwincroc doesn't want children either. Given those factors, why on earth would I have any kids? And how does not having them make me selfish??
In my experience, the people saying it are massive dicks. How bitter and miserable do you have to be about your own life choices that you have to drag someone else down like that?
Not that having kids is a bad thing in most cases. It's fine if that's what you want and you have the resources to do so. But the only people I would expect to make a fuss over someone else's decisions like that are people who regretted their own life choices and want everyone else to be just as unhappy as they are.
Very good points.
I agree. I literally cannot fathom how choosing not to have children is selfish. I don't see one ounce of logic in this at all.
It's not what is selfish is having children
Having a child is the single most selfish thing you can do, really.
You're creating a human fucking being for your own enjoyment and validation. It's like impulse buying a puppy but 1000 times worse.
Agree with you 100%. People with kids don't like hearing that though. Strange.
What a surprise, people who devote most of their time for almost 2 decades and hundreds of thousands of dollars to raising children don't believe that they are doing 'the most selfish thing that you can do.' Good parents make enormous sacrifices for their children.
Exactly this. Having a kid is fulfilling a want.
That's why adoption exists and that's what I plan to do when I want kids I hope you do the same
The jury is still out on whether or not we are cut out (or want) to be parents, but we've already decided that adoption is the route we'll go if we become parents.
Amazing
... Now that the exchange rate is established, I shall tell my sister that she needs to adopt 1000 puppies for our mom to stop pestering her to have a kid. She'll be delighted. Thanks!
Why not adopt a kid
Look up antinatilism also besides selfish it's not ethical and it's I'm moral who are you to decide that the chold should exist
My mother keeps pushing me to make her a grandchild. I'm 23 and I can't hardly make enough to pay my third of rent on a shitty roach-infested apartment. But she keeps asking when I'm gonna give her grandbabies, going as far as telling me which of my female friends would make good children. She doesn't seem to realise that the cost of living combined with low wages makes survival on my own almost impassible. It's like she lives in a fantasy world. So because you only had one kid between when you were a teenager and when you were 40, I'm supposed to give you a grandchild so you can have a surrogate second child?
Tell her this. Tell her. And make her stop.
honestly having kids is much more selfish
Not just selfish it's Immoral and unethical think of it like this is it ethical for me to impose life on someone based on my previous determined bias on the way life would go also whats a moral and dare I say logical reason to have kids especially when I can adopt one that's already living in bad conditions and make their life better what so I can pass down my genes thats the literal definition of immoral
yea exactly you're having kids based on the expectation that life will be worth living for them. I have a good friend who thinks like that but he also comes from money and has had pretty much everything he wanted happen (given he does work hard af)
This also ignores suicide, cancer, down syndrome etc especially if you won't take the blame if it happens and literally no one is safe fromode that fun fact Dwayne the rock Johnson tried to commit suicide in the mid nineties and he is one of the last people you would expect to do that
If I could have chosen not to be born or to have been aborted, I would have. I don't want to live on this fucking planet anymore, there's no reason for it. Thanks mom and dad, for shoving me out into a world that's being destroyed and populated by the most vicious, parasitic species in the known universe.
I've always been unsure about whether I would've been chosen to be born, but I'm pretty sure I want to keep living. Almost entirely because everything I'm facing is an experience that I wouldn't have if I died (or if there is an afterlife, it would be a completely different experience). Like even if I had to go to prison for 10 years, that's still an experience.
also drugs
Empathy. I get that.
It's selfish to not become a veterinarian because think of all the animals you could have saved.
"How dare you not want to contribute to global overpopulation!"
Thats what happens with centuries and centuries of religious brainwashing
You start to notice that people who use the selfish argument are rarely younger generations. Its always Aunt Barbara who's 63 and super catholic lol
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I do kind of understand that- at least about how adolescence has been extended so far. That much is certainly problematic. And I know a fair number of people who really need to grow up and actually get their shit together, but refuse to because YOLO or whatever. But that's their life. Maybe for some people having kids is a wake-up call to grow up. For some it's not. And it's certainly not a fair deal to the child involved to see if the parents actually will mature enough to get their lives together and provide for them.
Immature people aren't going anywhere anytime soon, but Millennials in general have serious challenges to face- mountains of student loan debt, higher unemployment rates, high education rates that don't match with job availability, etc. All of which are causing more of them to push back buying houses, getting married, or having kids. For most people I know (and for myself), it's not a matter of not wanting kids- it's just a matter of being in a better position to raise them first. That's the first thing they think of- the responses I've heard are not "Oh no, I could never deal with a screaming, messy tiny human!", but instead "I can't support/afford it right now!"
Also, bear in mind that as much as people don't like to hear it, they often change their minds. Millennials, particularly those who are younger, might feel different once they get older, have more stability, and have someone they want to have kids with. Not true in all cases, but definitely for some. It was true enough for me. Of course, I also wouldn't be so rude as to say as much to anyone who claimed they didn't want kids, but it's to be expected that people might feel differently a few years down the road or whenever their circumstances change.
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I get that. I'm on the younger end of the spectrum myself, so I think a large part of what I'm seeing is purely the follies of youth- a kind of short-sightedness, carpe diem mentality. Life seems much more fleeting, so you might as well enjoy it while you can. That sort of thing. I can't say I know of any studies that would support this, but it's just what I've observed. Add on the bigger millennial problems to that, and I think a large part of it becomes a matter of hopelessness about the future as well. I don't think a lot of them know what to expect and think that their situation isn't going to improve greatly in the next 10-20 years, and so to them, there's no point to it all.
Some people also like to take advantage of help from their parents or other relatives with their expenses. That's not to say everyone living at home or still getting support from their parents is lazy or leeching off them, of course, just that it does happen. However, most people, I would think, do not want to live at home forever and usually look to get back on their own feet as soon as they can.
Also to be fair to them, there's a lot of ways to travel, go to events, or eat well for cheap. Millennials appear to be more interested in less conventional ways of doing these things (i.e. cohabitation, use AirBnB/couchsurfing vs. hotels, etc.), which cuts down costs. They are more conscious of their health, the environment, and society as a whole as well, which probably influences a lot of people's spending habits as well (i.e. buying organic or going to local small businesses instead of paying for the cheaper alternatives). I think a lot of it is perceived as being fancy, even though a lot of those trends are becoming increasingly less expensive.
It's not the generation's fault that this is the world they have to grow up into, but I agree that it's not well-handled by everyone. I don't know if that's strictly a millennial problem, though. In general, most adults are less financially adept than they'd like to believe. Plus, I think frugality is something that comes more with age or upbringing. It's difficult for me to say which is more true, even as a millennial, because I see a little of everything around me. I'm pretty stingy myself and don't approve of overly lavish spending, but at the same time, I feel like I can at least understand why some millennials are like that.
It's really about whether you want to focus on yourself your whole life or do something that requires you to truly let go of that focus and really love and care for another fully in a truly unique way.
And they are right it is unique, but where they make the wrong turn is when they wear it as a badge of honor and use it to look down their noses at people. Congratulations, you did exactly what evolution wired you to do and the last 10 years of your life has been abotu nothing but diapers and stupid fucking children's songs. Don't try to suck me into your cult, or tell me I'm selfish because I'm not joining, just because you are a sucker and aged 20 years in the last 10 and are pissed you know the lyrics to every disney movie that has come out in the last decade, and you used to go to concerts every weekend and get drunk and high and now you go to fucking tea parties and are a pussy. I'm not selfish: you are pathetic, and get off my lawn and get those snot-nosed kids awaay from me before they get me sick. Don't try to rationalize how lame and boring your life has become, and your stretched out stomach and tired haggard eyes, and constant economic insecurity because of school and doctors and extra expenses, by saying my fun and exciting life with disposable income, is selfish. You are being a jealous twit and wearing mom pants.
Or some-thing like that is what I'd say. :)
source: I have a kid. used to be awesome. am now pathetic. wouldn't trade it for the world, but also would never tell someone else to have a kid because F that.
You seem like an awesome person look up antibatilism even if you don't agree with the philosophy itself I think you will definitely agree with certain aspects of it
Well thank you! I haven't heard of it before, but I just did a quick look-up of it. At first glance, it does sound a little more extreme than what I believe (having kids isn't necessarily bad or immoral in and of itself), but it does make some very good points. I'll have to look into more carefully to get a good gauge for it though.
Just think of it like this is it ethical for me to impose life to a non existent being
Just because it's not the case with some people doesn't mean that it's the same with everyone. I can totally understand not wanting to have kids as an adult because you want to enjoy yourself and pursue your personal time and hobbies more, which would be considered by many to be "selfish".
If someone doesn't want to have kids, then they shouldn't have kids. PERIOD.
Having kids because you feel "obligated to" by society means you won't be as good a parent because it's not something you wanted in the first place!
I have friends and coworkers with kids who love them and wanted to have them, and the kids have great parents as a result. That's how it should be.
We're not going to go extinct; plenty of people want kids. Look at how much trouble and expense people go through for fertility treatments and such.
People not wanting kids doesn't make them selfish or wrong, and pressuring them to have kids they don't want is not good for them or the resulting kids.
You can't be selfish to something that doesn't exist am I being selfish by not praying to magical pink unicorns god people like you especially should never pro create with that mentqlity
I mean, it's not selfless, so... yeah, it's a selfish decision. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with that.
But in general, someone who has sacrificed countless hours of their life raising a few kids, shaping them into productive members of society, pushing them through college and into useful careers has done a tremendous amount of work for their nation at great personal expense. It's good to recognize that.
I don't disagree- if you have kids and you're doing your absolute best to help them grow into productive adults, then good for you. My issue is just with people seemingly trying to shame other couples into making a decision they aren't ready for (assuming they ever will be), and those that have kids without thinking of the sort of life they're bringing the kids into, or just have them for their own selfish reasons (i.e. to fix a marriage, shut up the in-laws, because they just want them and want them now, etc.).
Most people without children are selfish though.
Source for that statement?
Life? Most people are selfish to begin with. Which is why 99% of us have a phone costing well over $500 and give almost nothing to charity. But putting that aside, having children tends to put other people's needs above your own. So you "tend" to live a life for your children and less for yourself. Of course, that's not always the case but in my circle of friends, the ones without kids tend to spend their lives satisfying their own needs.
Because having kids is definitely not about filling a personal want.
Let's play along with this breeder he's right were selfish so to fix this me and you are going to adopt
Guys please stop using the term 'breeders', no one'll take you seriously if you keep using slurs for people who procreated, one of the most mundane and popular life choices. I'm childfree too but let's not stoop down to playground insults.
It's a joke and I don't use it often I was just kind of angry how many responses I'm seeing on here saying thinga like we birthed to be happy or fulfilled but then also sa someone is selfish I usually call them Natalists or procreators
It is. But it goes both ways. You want a child. The child wants a parent. You give to the child because it feels good to give to your child. You can say that's selfish but it's not the same thing as loving an iWatch.
So how exactly does a child who doesn't exist want a parent?
Actually no what goes both ways would be adopting the act of pro creating us literally only a benefit for the parent
Quite frankly this presumption that all parents are automatically altruistic is just confected nonsense based on some lame dichotomy that presents all childfree people as feckless hedonists. It is intellectually dishonest.
If parenthood REALLY was this magical silver bullet that transformed a person into a selfless saint there'd be no child abuse.
The inconvenient truth is that when a child is beaten, starved, abused or murdered the perp is most often the parent and very, very rarely the steretypical childless social misfit living alone.
I'm not saying all parents are child abusers but most child abusers/murderers are the child's parents.
Quite frankly you can go shove you smug platitudes and anecdotal observations.
Are you arguing that child abuse is NOT an outlier in parents?
Classic breeder logic your right I'll say that it's selfish so guess what Im gonna do I'm going to adopt
I just don’t like the overpopulation of the planet and increasing my carbon footprint. You having kids is selfish
Civilization can't perpetuate itself unless people have children. It follows that a large part of society sees time spent indulging yourself as time that could be better spent preparing the new generation who are supposed to be coming up and taking the reins once you're done with them.
At least in terms of numbers, civilization appears to be doing just fine. A greater proportion of younger people might help solve some problems, especially in certain parts of the world, but when a large chunk of the people able to bear children is n debt or struggling to just pay the bills, adding another massive financial burden helps no one. Including society as a whole.
We as Homo sapiens sapiens are still reproducing faster than we are dying. I'm not the least bit concerned that humanity is in its death throes.
There are literally 7.6 billion people in the world, though.
People shouldn't be being brought to the world just so civilization doesn't end that one of the most selfish and evil reasons to procreate
Do you realize how overpopulated this planet is at the moment? And the population is still growing.
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Agree so much. So many people seem to want kids simply to carry on their "special" DNA and have their own mini versions of themselves. It's completely self serving. I don't really have a problem with the self serving aspect of it, but I do find it incredibly hypocritical to then turn around and say it's selfish of people to not want kids.
Like the comment above that says he (she?) would find it selfish of his future kids not to procreate because he wants a piece of himself to carry on and his kids would be denying him that. Like, he expects another human being to make a monumental and life-altering decision to satisfy his wants, and then thinks they're the selfish one if they don't agree to it? Sounds like projection to me.
But that's immorality kids need to be born just to continue a bloodline because you don't want it to end
I'm 30, own a home, have an established career and disposable income.
My family, "When are you going to have kids?"
"1 - I'm single. 2 - I'm independent and accountable to no one. 3 - kids are exhausting and expensive. 4 - I'm not going to find someone, knock her up and radically change my life just so you can spend an hour a week playing with a toddler for a couple years."
Jesus Christ right? People tell me I'm selfish for not wanting kids... How about they pay for them, feed the, take care of them, etc...
IMO people love the idea of children but as soon as the kid needs attention or requires work, the ones who were clamouring want nothing to do with it all of a sudden.
I got SO many offers for babysitting, meals, etc when I was pregnant but when I had the kid they magically disappeared. Even my mom was super gung ho about babysitting at the beginning but 5 months later she’s rarely available (which is pretty common with her, she doesn’t have much patience for projects. She did the same thing when they adopted my little sister as a teenager).
just respond with "selfish to who?"
Being selfish IS having kids.....
Why do so many people think it's opposite. You're having a kid so YOU have something to do and have something to play with and someone to love you and love.
THAT'S AS SELFISH AS IT GETS.
If that's the reason someone has kids they are fucked up. The whole selfish track is pretty much a dead end on both sides.
People are bored and need something to "keep their marriages together", "to keep them occupied", "for religious reasons", "family pressure", "to take care of them when they're old"...etc...
...just writing the above gave me a vomity taste in my mouth....
Most people just want to have a kid at some point, and don't really know why. And that's pretty much written into our DNA is my guess, if anything is. Nobody is good at explaining it, and it isn't really going to be amenable to logical analysis. It's like explaining why you love puppies. You sort of just do and people get all stupid around puppies.
What is amenable to logic is family planning: discussion of birth control, when to have kids, how many to have, etc.. But generic sweeping statements about why its selfish to have kids, or to not have kids, are pretty much useless.
That's why sex education, especially at early stages, should cover sterilization and vasectomies and discourage breeding as its #1 priority. The notion of having a child today, in my opinion, is completely illogical and in some places in this world (Eastern Europe, Africa etc.) should be considered borderline criminal. I am a Canadian currently living in Bulgaria and what I see here (3-4 children families living in squalor in horror conditions with Dad working on a $500/month salary) is.....well....criminal.
I am not some fuckin' environmentalist, far from it, but earth needs a bit of a breather from us and our needlessly exploding population.
Kids are not fuckin' puppies. Puppies are cute and fun.
The notion of having a child today, in my opinion, is completely illogical
People who think like this haven't really thought about it, and are usually pretty young, in my experience. No offense. :) I'm all for people not having kids, but when it crosses over into "people who have kids are irrational" there is usually something wrong with you. Sorry. :) Evolutionarily speaking, that is about as irrational as you can get.
Nope. Nothing wrong. I'm 45, married for many many years and we find kids absolutely repulsive and a waste of time and a money (let's not even talk how completely irrational the whole notion of breeding is).
We live in a beach resort and travel to a new country almost once a month (we've been to almost 40 countries, many of them multiple times). I can't stress this enough....kids and breeding are the world's #1 problem and the cause of almost everything that is bad on earth today. You really can't argue that.
Plus the fact they're just icky and shit in their pants.
My friends on FB talk about how poor they are after having kids, they get no sleep, they can't have hobbies or nice things.
I am flying out for a weekend of clubbing and beers on the Med in Telaviv in just about 10 hours (then 2 weeks after flying to Cambridge university to judge a Raspberry Pi robotics competition). I will be posting photos of the Mediterranean sea sunset right under my friend's "how is it possible that little Jimmy got shit all over and inside the refrigerator? #mommylife" FB post.
sickening...fuckin' sickening....
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Good argument.
Especially when so many children ALREADY EXIST without stable loving homes. I'm never making a child but if I find myself well off and can quit working to raise a couple you bet your ass Im adopting.
Thank you very much for comment. I really appreciate what you said!!
Having children serves a purpose. You know that right? Maintaining a workforce so you don't need to work forever, evolution needs new generations.
The whole love aspect comes from how we evolved. We would still need to have children as a species if we didn't love and provide for our children. See snakes and spiders.
Whatever emotional baggage you're carrying around doesn't change the facts.
Sure, and there's lots of kids that don't have families as it is.
We also don't NEED every couple to have kids. We're way overpopulated as it is.
We need SOME kids, but not all the kids we're having now. IT's an exponential growth and our environment won't sustain it.
I'm not arguin that one person is more qualified than the other or whatever, just that we don't need so many damn people in the world. It's going to kill us all, and thats also a fact.
I'm not talking about calm reasoning as to why someone doesn't want children. That's totally fine. This is straight up child hate though, and that's not reasonable or sane.
Yea I'm not on board with that other guy straight up child hating
We do though, unless some economic genius comes up with a way to keep society from collapsing due to less than replacement fertility.
No society has ever survived less than replacement fertility.
I'm talking about humanity as a whole. We have enough being born. Every single couple having kids is choking out the entire planet. We won't survive having no resources either.
No, having children serves ZERO purpose. They are nothing more than a parasite. They spread disease, feces, noise, despair and cause immense economic and environmental damage. Children are, by far, the world's biggest problem. Nothing even comes close.
Plus they're all fuckin' disguisting and look like bags of unwashed potatoes.
Please stop peddling your child hating agenda already, nobody really cares just how much you hate kids.
Sounds like I hit a nerve.
Great, hope you think about what I wrote above and consider getting sterilized. It's an inexpensive and mostly painless procedure.
No you have not hit a nerve as I don't have kids and have no plans to have any either, nice try though.
There's just no need to go ranting and raving about how terrible kids are as if they are Satan's spawn. If you don't want them that's great for you, no need for such completely wasted negativity though.
I'm sorry to hear that your parents didn't raise you better and that you were like that. Because I was nothing like that. My nephews weren't like that. My cousins weren't like that.
You had shit parents and were an ugly disgusting fuck. I'm sorry you had to grow that way.
having children keeps the species alive. that's a pretty big purpose if you ask me
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It's so they can pat themselves on the back for not abandoning their own creation. People have this idea that once you have a child, you'll "know what to do" and that mothers can do no wrong. I understand that motherhood isn't easy, but I groan when they act like it's some important and selfless act when most of the time it's getting knocked up and dealing with the fact that your life has been changed irrevocably and you'll either need to sacrifice your plans for the future or be a shitty parent. Or both.
I dont wanna be alone when im old, even if my SO leaves, if im a good parent ill have family around when im wrinkly. Fuck someone thats says im selfish, i put the time and work into parenting so i have a chance to not be lonely.
Many people think like you but unfortunately end up being abandoned by their kids as they grow old and move far away and have their own families. Or their kid dies before them and they feel sad for the rest of their life and regret having kids. Or you die when your kids are still small. Or the kid and parents for some reason stop talking to each other and parents ends up alone again. Just saying nothing is certain.
So what your saying is, nothing is guarenteed? Weird /s
Man, not having kids gives you so much time and energy to do activities!
New reply: "No idea. When are you going to foster one?"
If they want to borrow children they can very well get off their butts and take care of one themselves. There's plenty of kids that need a home.
This is my go-to for my mom's friends who all of a sudden keep asking me. I'm 28 and have no plans for children, if I change my mind I will foster or adopt.
You looking for a single, 25 year old, employed, childfree woman? Right here ;)
But really, I feel like people take kids as toys that one can just simply get and not reakky think about the consequences they bring to life.
3 is spot on. Man kids are exhausting. It’s def not for everyone. It’s the greatest decision I have ever made having kids, but you can only play patty cake and hide and seek for so long before you break as a human. Also the fact that my kids are terrible at hide and seek does not help.
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Hopefully you don't either with that attitude
too late
u mad bro?
Hopefully they turn out better than you did.
They are more successful right now than you will ever be :)
Send your kids my condolences.
They are too busy being successful to be bothered by such plebians.
That's unfortunate, why would you torture your own offspring with your terrible genetics and upbringing? Seems quite fucked to force that on a sentient being.
I can guarantee nobody wants to be born with your genetics and then raised by you. I'd would rather kill myself, being dead would be less miserable than being alive as your offspring.
lol stop you might hurt my feelings
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you're really close to hurting my feeling please stop :)
Any child you have would be Kevin. But worse.
They are mentally and physically superior to you, but that's almost too obvious to type.
What?
Oh look my family decided to make an appearance in this thread.
Now kindly bugger off
selfish, as usual
That he ought to do what he wants with his life? Rather than bring someone into our overpopulated world that he doesn’t even want to exist?
Not having kids, when you don’t want kids, is the selfless choice.
yeah and not wanting kids = mentally ill ;)
Obvious troll is super obvious. If you want to get a raise out of people, you have to be a bit more subtle.
"Never have kids" because he doesn't want to knock up some random woman and pay child support? You have issues.
*Looks up post history*
Ahh, I see.
looks up post history
Ahh, I see.
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It's selfish to bring a child into the world if you can't provide for them
It's I'm moral to bring a child into the world at all and dare I say selfish
Exactly. There is no reason to get pregnant when you can't afford it that isn't selfish (I'm not counting oops babies here, sometimes that happens but they would happen a lot less if people used birth control properly), from "I want someone to love me" (Toddlers are sociopaths that haven't learned empathy yet) to "hey free money from the government!"
Say it louder for my family in the back plz
Word
I'm just gonna adopt I'd like someone in this thread to give me a moral reason why I should pro create instead of adopt a kid who looks similar to me if no one can everyone here has to understand they have kids for them
I always like to ask people who think having kids is unselfish that tell me just ONE unselfish reason to have kids so I will try and have one. I haven’t got a fully unselfish response yet. Ha! All these mommies with babies feel deeply hurt when I tell them it’s a selfish deed to decide having kids.
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Humanity is going to be fine. Maybe when we drop under a billion, people can start pushing me to have kids again.
Your parents may want the blood of the family to live on. If you don't have kids, you will be the last one in your family to live
How is that not selfish?
Oh, it is.
I know you won't agree but you should adopt instead that way you get the benefit of being a parent wile giving a child who already exists a better life
What do you mean by "that"? The "ending your family line" bit or the "You'll live your life as we expect you!" bit?
I'll be gone from this earth one day. And I want to leave something behind, that's my train of thought. I want my blood to live on even though I'm gone. That way I feel as though a part of me will live on.
You do realise that your genetic influence will half with every generation that succeeds you?
People are naturally more attracted to people who are like them, so it's not exactly half
But having identical genes to preserve and pass down is impossible. The process of Meiosis would also prevent this even if both parties had perfectly identical genetic material...
The point isn't you as an individual, but as a piece of a genetic chain, you're breaking your own chain to propagate another, its the antithesis of your biology, and to many your tradition
What I'm saying is that OP's genetic contribution, and everyone else who decides to procreate, will literally amount to nothing after just a few generations. Keep dividing something by half, it will exponentially become smaller, in terms of genes they becoming less influential (not to mention the aforementioned Meiosis).
What will amount to something is how our specie's collective genetic contribution adapts to its surroundings through the generations.
His /specific/ contribution, not his haplogroup
Explain
A subgroup within a species that stem from an individual mutation, they're the result of a gene being advantageous enough to propagate. You say that an individual's influence is halved every generation, but a single gene passed on has the possibility of being propagated to the point of being universal in humanity in the future, affecting mankind forever
Km not even going to say selfish it's just unethical and immoral what reason is there to continue a bloodline other than I want to?
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I could explain a bunch of reasona why but instead answer me this name me 1 moral reason to have kids that's only for the kids benefit? Jordan Peterson couldn't even answer this
23 and graduated, have a pretty okay job and a girlfriend of 6 years. My coworkers are floored that we’re not married. The response “I’m not trying to ruin my life by having a kid right now” is very tongue in cheek. Since most of them had children at like 19
Edit: poorly worded on my part. They ask much more often “when are you having kids” rather than “when are you getting married”
To be fair you can be married and not have a kid.
Agreed. She’s graduating this semester. We’re not in a hurry and are very open with our plans.
I am married and will never have a kid. The notion just grosses us out to vomit-like levels.
Same! The thought of something growing inside me makes me downright queasy.
I had a coworker who birthed at 15, and was now 30. she had a 15 yr old teen. 15!!! she looked so much older. I bet she drops dead from exhaustion one day.
I'm always amazed at how many of my friends look like they're in their 40's after having children.
My parents were 40 when I was born. I am always so surprised when I meet friends' parents, who are younger than mine, and they look older than my parents.
One word. Timing. Your parents probably had you at a time in their life where your mere existence didn't drain every single bit of energy they had after they finished their work day, your friends' parents probably had kids right after they got married.
On the flip side of that my mom had me when she was 15. She's now 41 and people constantly ask if we're siblings. Was always weird growing up with a mom so young but at the same time when I'm 60 she'll be 75! I'm happy with the fact that we'll get to spend so much time together at least.
You can be married and not have a kid tho?
Very true. I phrased it poorly. They ask more often why we don’t have kids and that “she’s gona get the baby bug” and stuff like that rather than that we’re not married.
Sounds a bit like sour grapes tbh. Oh look at you, you fancy fucker with your degree and you not having kids while still a teenager!
I think there’s some of that. I’m one of two people in the bank I work at with a degree. We have 13 in our office. I was very surprised
My friend just got married at 23, all of his male coworkers thinks thats too young, and thr female ones ask why he waited 6 years.
You can marry without having kids, but yea I feel you, you do you bud.
This is so relatable to my own life. I've been with my now (recently) fiancé since we were 14. We bought an acreage together when we were 20 and have established careers for ourselves and have been able to have an amazing life and relationship together. Since the day we moved in together it has been non stop about when we will be getting married. Saying that we're "next" to get married and have kids.
Everyone I know bugged him and I about when we were going to get married so much to the point that he put off asking me until everyone stopping bringing it up. Took 4.5 years and I was more okay with it than people who aren't in our relationship. We get married this summer and I'm already dreading the whole family constantly asking when we will have kids. Crazy thing is I am the youngest sibling, like why bug me!
25 and been with my BF for 8 years. I get the same questions but they don't bother me anymore. I've been in grad school until this year and starting my first job Monday so we will see how long I last until I'm annoyed.
Hey I'm in the pretty much the same case as you. I graduated in December but my girlfriend of 7 years doesn't finish until December this year. Soooooo many people asking why we aren't married yet
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nope, im in the midwest. wisconsin actually
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i wouldnt say i live in an anti-religion area, but yea it's a pretty conservative area all things considered.
That explains it
I fail to understand how not bringing more children to an overpopulated planet can be seen as selfish.
It depends on where you are, the planet isn't overpopulated, certain nations are.
Seriously lmao imma wait til I'm 30
Im 30. I think ill wait until I'm dead. The last cruise I went on was the tits.
Lowkey I think I just want a sexy travel buddy more than anything.
My wife is my sexy travel buddy. I gotta tell ya, its pretty great.
Im jelly lol.
Good! Now go find your peanut butter!
That was adorable
You misspelled nauseating
Eww, love.
Right? Gross
Yah mine told me “no wedding until you’re snipped” so now no babby, and we can do anything we want! Bonus points, if someone in our family asks us about kids we can just look sad and say “we can’t do that :c” and then they feel bad for asking!
But yeah, forest sexy travel is just the bee’s knees.
Hey, mine too. Internet high-five for sexy travel wives!
Blink twice if she's behind you
DINK (Dual income, no kids) is the best lifestyle choice. Tons of disposable income to do outrageous stuff and no kids to have to spend your saturdays watching shitty soccer games instead of chilling in Ibiza.
This is an unfair comparison, in my opinion, and one that is pretty popular on reddit.
You're comparing the two lifestyles by picking a single event from each lifestyle, then comparing across one dimension (how FUN it is). Ibiza will generally come out on top.
What about if we compared across another dimension? A warm feeling of love, pride, and accomplishment? The soccer game gives you more of that, generally.
A more realistic comparison is {freedom, personal and financial} vs. {a type of love that lacks equal and must be experienced to be believed}.
I think plenty of people understand this, but just value personal freedom over rugrats. And that's ok, but the financial argument just rings hollow.
ohhh look, I feel the downvotes of an irritated yet inarticulate hivemind
Not gonna downvote you, but Ibiza was one example. Instead of feeling pride and accomplishment through watching my child play a terrible game of soccer, I feel pride and accomplishment through using that time to further my ability to speak a second language, play violin/guitar and see the world. There's so much to do in life that unless you're loaded with money, you'll never get to do if you have children. And that's fine I know plenty of people who yearn for family life but I yearn for a jetsetter life, when I'm old I don't want to sit around without hobbies, I want to play in a cover band. I don't want to attend a school play, I want to attend the Monaco Grand Prix etc.
That makes sense that it's a lifestyle choice you prefer.
I just get tired of the false equivalencies.
ugh I'd rather be tucked in bed with some kids right now than on this goddamn transatlantic flight in coach
did someone mention a sense of pride and accomplishment?
I'm just saying it was an unfair comparison. A parental obligation vs. a planned vacation.
I'm guessing you've heard those terms thrown around a lot in these kinds of discussions?
google "sense of pride and accomplishment" if you aren't aware of the shitpost that was my comment, haha
but to actually contribute to the discussion, I agree with you. not everything can be judged on a fun scale. there's much more to life then measuring your currently position on that scale.
I would assume that to most parents, having children and then watching them grow into functioning humans with their unique personalities and contributions is a joy that is hard for non-parents to comprehend.
Have sexy travel buddy. Neither of us want children. Can confirm it's awesome.
This is pretty much the one reason I see for being in a relationship. I just want somebody to travel with. And maybe somebody who'd pay half the rent, too. Other than that I could just stay single.
I honestly feel the same way except I do like being in a relationship exclusively with someone I'm compatible with. I'm just so career focused at the moment I'm not interested in thinking about a family in my 20s (currently 23).
Same here
36 here and let me tell you how awesome Belize is! Especially, without kids ;)
30 was when I fully committed/admitted to myself that I didn't want kids, ever. Coincidentally it was also when I started traveling more and having a great time with my life.
I used to think that too, then I hit 30 and thought "ah, not right now, maybe at 35." Then I hit 35. Turned out I didn't want them then either.
Haha yeah that may likely be me unless I don't pull out one day.
30 hear, I thought the same. It's now "I'll wait til I'm 35"
I'll be 35 a week from today. Still no kids. I'm happily married, but after a layoff a year ago went back to school. We do okay on my wife's income. Right now I'm in class from 8:45am-3 or 5pm, and working my freelance thing from when I get home until 10-12. My wife also works a lot.
I have no idea how in the world to make time to raise a child despite wanting to.
I'm 31, still in no way that I could financially have kids.
At least I don't hear it from my parent's or in-laws. If they wanted better chances at kids, they both shouldn't have had just the ones.
I waited until 35 and we can't be happier with the decision.
How many kids do you all have now?
We have one 14 year old boy.
When in reality they're the one's being selfish, dying for a grandchild. My mom had three children, only one has produced a child and I'm the youngest at 24. My aunt has practically adopted the grandchild as her own grandchild because my aunt's three children haven't reproduced yet (and as things are looking it's doubtful they will) and her youngest is around 30.
I think people that nag the younger generation about children are the one's unable to cope with their empty nest.
It is selfish and immoral and I'm since I'm assuming your not antinatilist the fact that you realized this is amazing
I have not seen antinatilist before, interesting!
No, I am not, but I also don't plan to have children because I don't personally have a reason to and see the whole thing as wildly inconvenient, which is probably not the greatest mindset for a mother to have. I actually want a puppy, but I'm mature enough to know I don't have to deal with that responsibility. An infant would be 100x worse.
If you want to know more about the philosophy pm me or look up YouTube the channel glynos
If anyone would ever be so nosy towards me, doesn't matter if it was family, friends, neighbour, or pope - I'd tell them to piss off and mind their own business in such a way they'd never ask a personal question ever again in their life. What the hell, some people know no limits
"You wanna help?" is a good way to shut them up unless they are family or significantly kinky.
But it's fine if they're both
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I just don't get it! I want to be financially stable, have graduated college, have a house, and be married before I even consider having a child. When I tell my family this it's always "ohhhh good! You've got a good head on your shoulders........soooo when are we going to have grandchildren?" Why can't they seem to grasp that being a parent is not my only goal in life.
Consider adopting a child who looks similar to you when you pro create
I can't fucking STAND when I hear people calling other people selfish for not wanting children. Having a child and resenting it's existence, now that's selfish and terrible. But go ahead and call me selfish for not wanting something that I don't have yet...
Not even not haVing it yet it something doesn't exist and doesn't need to exist for any reason outside of the parents am I selfish for not praying for leprechauns to exist?
How the hell do they twist this into being "selfish?"
By waiting until you're financially able to support kids you're actually being selfless because you're putting off your desire to have kids so you can give them a better life later on.
To me, having kids because you want them without considering their quality of life is selfish!
"Don't be selfish."
The favored phrase of Baby Boomers who are not having their personal desires catered to by others.
When I was in my early 20s, my mother would say "when I was your age, I'd already had two kids!"
Never knew what her point was as she's never pushed me or my brothers into having children. Think it may have been "you're young, enjoy yourself." Still not sure though....
What? Who says that to 23 year olds anymore? That’s way below the average age of new parents nowadays.
All coming from people who had kids before they turned 20.
This. People are having kids later and later and often not at all and most old people don't know how to handle it. They have it in their heads that having a kid is a "requirement" in life.
As a gay guy I can say this is one of the perks. Nobody bothers me with that shit. Constant pressure to breed would make me angry. Like, back off grandma.
And your family’s remark about it being selfish to not have kids: wow. I think it’s pretty selfish to want to propagate your DNA through your grand children. “The world obviously needs more of ME and people who look and act just like ME! ME ME ME”
28 years old and nobody has asked me when I am going to have kids yet, besides the philosophical kind of question if I'd ever want kids.
Had my aunt ask me when I'm getting married though, but I don't really mind that as it was more of a joking way.
My wife and I have been married since we were 23. We waited until we were 32 for her to get pregnant. Just because you’re married or in a committed relationship doesn’t mean you’re ready for a kid. So glad we waited until we 100% had our shit together. The stress of not being financially or personally ready for a kid scares the shit out of me.
"Don't be selfish."
i don't understand this. my mom has said the same thing to me---that choosing not to have kids is selfish. the world is a terrible place. and kids are expensive so unless I have more money, it would be wildly irresponsible. to me, demanding your kids have a kid so you can have grandkids is insanely selfish. and shortsighted.
You should tell your mom I'll adopt and see how she reacts that will expose her selfishness
Ask them what they were making at your age, and then pull out an inflation calculator. Turns out its much easier to start a family in your early 20s when starting salaries were the equivalent of 150k/year.
Woah, they are the ones being selfish. Ur just a reasonable person who cares about the environment a kid grows up in. Fuck them, if anyone says ur selfish, call them out for being selfish and not caring for having a solid foundation for raising a kid.
My grandparents keep asking me if I’ve found a girl, presumably for the same reason... I’m 21, barely have enough time for my puppy, and have no idea what I’m doing with my life lol
The puppy is all you need, man.
Truth right there.
I graduated college, got a solid job, married, currently 27, still don't want kids. We told my mom about a year ago and she hasn't asked since, but there are still certain people who constantly ask. It has gotten to the point to where we just ignore them.
Last time someone played the "don't be selfish" card I asked them if it was really me being selfish or them being jealous of people who don't have kids being able to do the things they want to do. That person doesn't talk to me anymore. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You should have said one either how can I be selfish to something that doesn't exist or even better your right I might be selfish which is why I may adopt and watch them have no argument while also realizing the only reason they had kidsome was because they wanted to
Same with mine. "You've been dating for 4 years, isn't it time?" Like no, I can barely afford myself and my cats. I'm not throwing a baby (that I don't want in the first place) into that mix!
Don't be selfish?! Yes because having kids is about anyone but you and your significant other.
You can tell your family it's legit 0% of their business and entirely your own decision that you'll make when you're ready to.
Don't be selfish, but give me grandkids.
I'll give me grandkids they just won't have your genes
Paws, I assume.
Pro tip for family: Don't encourage someone to have kids with "that little girlfriend" until she is a little wife. For fucks sake why would you want your son to have a kid with someone who he isn't married to?
My mom does this shit. Lady, I use one meal swipe and steal enough food from the buffet dining hall on campus for the next two days. You really think I can feed a kid, much less do all the other shit for it???
Just tell her I'm gonna adopt instead and watch her give a selfishout counterargument
I'm 20, my boyfriend and I are both in school.
My mom: "I need grandbabies!!! Why can't you be like your cousin!"
My cousin dropped out of school, had kids with her shitty husband, and now refuses to work. Her world is so small (literally the kids and her husband) and they have no money. I'll stick with Biology.
Edit: she also makes sure to throw in some slightly racist stuff about me needing to mix genes with my (Chinese) SO because our babies would be "smarter, and look soooooo cute!"
Tell her I'll adopt a Chinese kid
My wife’s best friend had a kid at 23. She had already graduated college with a bullshit degree in fashion merchandising, which is useless unless you live in New York or Los Angeles, and didn’t have a steady job. Her boyfriend at the time (the baby daddy) also worked minimum wage low skill jobs.
Flash forward 8 years, she still lives at home in the inlaw apartment, dad is doing okay with another woman. He went to work for a cable company and got trained as an installer. She hasn’t worked full time for more than a few months at a time, still parties like she’s 21. She’s got a heart of gold but still very immature for a 32 year old grown woman.
My main point is her son. Neither parent was in any position at the time to have a kid, and it shows with his behavior. He’s out of control most of the time, as he was never properly taught how to act. Very whiny when his mom is around, back talks, won’t eat anything but chicken tenders and French toast sticks. When he’s with dad, he’s a totally different child, well mannered and polite.
His mom (And kiddo) could obviously benefit from growing up a bit. Not saying she’s a bad mom, but definitely had a kid way too early in life.
"Don't be selfish."
"What's selfish about wanting to make sure any child I bring in to the world will have a stable home life, enough food to eat, and parents that can actually spend time taking care of them? Wouldn't it be more selfish to have a child nownrather than wait for better circumstances?"
Rent? RENT!?
When I was your age I owned my own house.
I've heard this too. Showing them the prices of houses and the true value of minimum-wage in the 70s, and they still don't get it.
I recently bought a house. I am now even less likely to have a kid anytime soon XD
/r/childfree is the way son.
Adoption and anti nations are better
Being childless is best...
This shit right here
Boy, people are stupid. Good on you for trying to resist the pressure and take responsibility! So sorry they think that's selfish, dang it. There's nothing selfish about this
I just tell people I'm gonna adopt best way to expose they are selfish because then the counter arguments boil down to don't you want your own kids or don't you want to propagate your genes
Lmao both my older siblings had children at the extremely wrong times in their lives. One got pregnant in high school and the other knocked his baby momma up when he was working in food service after dropping out of high school. My parents went off the deep end trying to keep me from making similar mistakes. It didn’t take much though because after I saw what my siblings had to do I was like nah fam. I’m good.
Gonna keep saying this adopt especially because your family genes have already been passed down from your sibilings
What pisses me off about that last line is that in your situation if you went ahead and had kid(s) anyway...
That is the selfish move. I hate that so many people have kids they can't properly care for in an attempt to bring meaning or something to their own life.
I just tell them I'm gonna adopt and it makes everyone shut up
Your response "Are you helping pay for said kid?"
Actually yeah I'll have kids by adopting
In that case.....
Selfish to who? You’re not hurting the kids by not bringing them into existence. If anything, it’s selfish to subject new people to the world for your own purposes.
"Why did you have kids then?"
It usually starts with "I wanted..."
Yeah. Selfish.
Having children is immoral.
Graduate high school/college. Get a full time job. Get married. Then have kids. Doing things in that order will reduce your likelihood of being poor by >90%.
Change the last step to adopt
No, thats something you should do once you've had some kids of your own and you are a bit more financially established.
It's what your supposed to do when you want kids at all
That's ridiculous. You should have at least three of your own biological kids no matter what you do.
No Its What I Would Want To Do Not What I should do
I've had to tell my parents this quite a few times. They honestly cannot comprehend how so many young people can't find living-wage work, how frustrating applying for jobs can be in the digital age, things like that, which impede a person from working and earning money. (Also, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there does not exist a legitimate job for almost 1/5 of the working-age population in the USA.)
I have no desire to have kids, neither does my fiancee, but i've said before that I see zero point in bringing a child into this world unless you can make sure that their every need and many of their unnecessary wants can be met. I live in a low cost of living area, but I would still tell any family making $250,000 a year or less, you can't afford kids. That might sound awful, it's just what I believe based on anecdotes from my surroundings.
It's not awful your an amazing person for realizing this
Im 23, recovering from a lost eye, no job, no assets, no stability but my family unsubtly throw hints at me that they want me to have kids.
No dad. Im not gonna hammer out a fucktrophy so you can have another grandkid. You have 7. Leave me alone.
It's crazy to think that at 24, my dad already had me and my brother, and although we weren't rich, we always had enough. How could he afford that on a regular wage back then?
You tell them to fuck right off. Had my first at 30 and I'm SOOOOO glad I waited because now I don't have to rely on anybody but me to keep my daughter fed and dressed. Enjoy your youth.
Omg for real. I did the math on my student loans last night, and at this rate, they won’t be paid off for 8 years. It’s a good thing I’m not planning on having kids for 10-12 years.
Just adopt and give anot her kid a chance
I found with marriage one day I just suddenly knew that this was definitely the right girl and the woman I would marry.
With Children, that never hit. I sort of just decided "look, the correct time will never come, just pull the trigger and jump in." To put that in perspective, my first child was born 3 days before I turned 30. I adore her... but I wouldn't trade those years before child-rearing for anything.
Don't feel pressured into it. Take your time, do it right
I don't quite get this. My mom definitely wants grandkids. But she doesn't push it. Touchy subject with my SO in prison for 6 more years and my anxiety about not being able to have kids by that time (I'll be 35, and everyone tells me I'll be fine. I'm just anxious about it. I'll probably end up with a going out of business sale and end up with multiples, lol. Twins run on my mom's side)
Adopt
It's an option. I'm one of those people who really wants to go through the entire experience of pregnancy and birth. Even if it's only once. I know that about myself.
Your right it's an option and one that I can't stop you in but it's immoral, unethical, and dare I say selfish especially because you want pregnancy
Lol. That's an opinion to have. You're entitled to think that, but I don't. Adopting a child is a beautiful thing. Morals can be pretty subjective. Perhaps you should take your soapbox elsewhere.
Morals aren't subjective...
Yet not all people have the same moral compass...
Yeah and it's awful
Had the same kind of talk with my family recently. They don't seem to understand that having kids without being financially stable is the most selfish choice!
Ignore them, it's mostly the generation above who have had a easier family life
"Don't be selfish."
i was told this before and after i had a vasectomy. like wtf, how is that selfish? i have 1 kid already i dont want more. dont get me wrong, i love my son to death but i dont need/want other.
Please if you want more adopt
true. so many kids out there without parents and people keep breeding without a second thought.
"Don't be selfish by having a child that will have an absolute shit life just because you wanted to play parent when you couldn't afford it!"
I hate these arguments.
What if we can't have children? What if we don't want children? What if your genetics so messed up that you don't want to pass it on to another little person And make their life miserable?!
Your family sounds dumb...
Having the kid is the selfish thing.
"Your generation is the reason Toys R Us is going under!" People getting mad at millennials because they're being smart.
Its so funny when I see this as if Toys R Us going out of business is some great injustice to all of society. XD
Nevermind the fact that the actual reason they went out of business is completed unrelated
Yeah when we had a baby at 29 my husbands family was like “finally” and his mom wrote on the card she gave us, “I’ve been waiting so long for this.” Keep in mind she already has grandchildren, and “SO LONG?!” Really?? Like she expected him to have children when he was a 19 year old degenerate who was probably black out drunk in the back of someone’s van while on tour with a punk band? Even now as responsible adults we are barely scraping by. Raising kids is hard and it’s a huge responsibility!
Next time ask: 'How much are you willing to chip in for its upkeep? If we get $50k/year, a nice house, and our college debt paid off we are in!"
Oh, selfish? You guys wanna move close by and babysit them for free while I'm at work?
They'll stop asking around the age of 26.
Hold out
Glad to hear you have the presence of mind to see how messed up that is. Good on ya man
just my dad does this, he thinks all women are nothing but vaginas, and my brother is becoming just like him. my sister looks at me strangely when I say idc about having kids but she says nothing. probably says it when i'm not around tho
Just tell them you'll adopt
And the people that have kids are just reproducing stupid
I'm glad my parents had me really late anyways so they can't push me to have kids early. Gonna wait til I'm like 30.
On a alternate note if i have kids before i have a decent im pretty sure my parents would disowne me kick me out and get league custody over the kid.
Im 20 ive set the expectation low by telling my mom i dont even want kids or a wife.
Damn that seems so young to have kids. I'm only 20 right now, but its crazy to think that in less than five years people are gonna start having kids. I personally don't plan on it until I'm near 30, but ya never know shit happens.
Thank you for your common sense. Seriously, thank you.
I was just talking to my wife about this yesterday. We're a bit older than you, but it's such a sad vestige of our nation's puritanical roots that people who make a choice not to bring somebody into the world for whom they are to be responsible are shamed and guilted for it.
It's like a huge portion of society is under the impression that unless you're quietly hating your life, you're living incorrectly.
That's not to say anything at all about our generation's general ability to support a family, which you expressed.
It's often these same people who badger their kids to have kids, who also wag their fingers at poor people for having kids.
Yup we waited until we got out of college, our careers were starting, we got a house and disposable income. Then you can start having kids. (29 for us)
Also, my girlfriend at the start (way back) said something like she wanted 10 kids. I told her we'll go for 2 and then the more money we have the more kids we'll consider.
Listen to Tom Seguras bit on how having kids is selfish. Will give you good ammunition for that convo
I had my first at 21 and my second at 25. If I could go back we would have started when I was 25, but sometimes stupid things happen (I was in the 1% of birth control failure with our first)
There’s never really a “right” time to have kids money wise cause they are always gonna be expensive, but it makes more sense to have them later then when buying diapers means you might not have electricity for the next week. We struggled a ton with our first, working minimum wage jobs and going to college but by our second we both had good paying jobs and a house.
You’re not being selfish, your family is.
r/nokids
Please never break to them until you actually can afford it. You got this :)
Wow.
Sometimes you have to be the smart one in your family.
Yeah. Give yo your stability and happiness to raise a child that they want. They have you life after all you pretty much owe them anything they want.
I promise you it's just as bad our worse for your girlfriend.
Then the second you do have kids, your family would wonder why you brought kids into that kind of life
I don't know your family but I don't like them.
I’m 31 and in the exact same situation with my wife.
Seeing my brother and cousins go through this experience actually gave me some relief and gratitude about being sterile.
Sounds like my Mom.
A friend's stepdad was talking with us at some point and he was saying some really stupid things. He kept commenting on the girls' pets (my friend has a dog and her sister has 2 cats) and saying "why are you getting animals? Make a baby! Why do you want a substitute of a kid?" and some more very stupid things that I can't remember.
We kept telling him that we all have neither the money, nor the maturity yet to have kids (the girls are 23 for fuck's sake) and that having kids is not something to take lightly. He kept talking nonsense. I was mad but I didn't speak much because I didn't know him well.
Don't listen to them. Like at all. Don't let them get into your head, because it happens unconciously even if it is by a little bit. Just do whatever you think is best.
Edit:
I remembered... He was saying that you don't need money to raise kids. That he went on weeks eating only soup and bread or something, and he was talking about smartphones and technology and how we can't go without them, but he could when he was younger, so our kids can as well. I mean... you don't say? They didn't even exist back then. He couldn't understand how life works. Yes you can raise a kid and give them the minimum neccessary for them to not starve, but they'd have problems and you'd have too, and for what? ...Nothing? There was no logic to what he was saying.
I really don't want children (although I'm too young anyways) and the number of people that tell me it's 'selfish' drives me nuts. I'm not going to make a massive life altering decision just for the sake of other people. Besides, how is not having children selfish? It's arguably the best thing someone can do for the planet.
"Don't be selfish."
Amazing how the irony of this is lost on them. What they mean to say is "When are you going to give me a grandchild I can dote on for an hour a month, then hand back to you to raise the rest of the time?".
My wife and I had our first kid at 30, the second at 33. Only at 30 (both done with college and working full time) did we just feel settled enough to start raising children. If you don't feel ready, you're probably right. You have plenty of time.
"Don't be selfish."
Says the parents who just want the baby for themselves despite the fact it would cripple your world in many ways.
Isn’t 23 young to be having kids? In the UK, the age of first time parents is 30 something.
"Don't be selfish."
I wish my family would say that. I've been selfish my whole life. I look out for me first, girlfriend second, and everybody else after that. If not having a kid means I have a better life, then I'm going to find someone who also doesn't want them (which I have).
If I had a kid, I wouldn't be able to afford the car I'm probably going to buy later this year. Or be able to fuel my gaming habits.
Ugh that's so insane to me that people call others selfish for NOT having kids they don't want/can't afford/can't take care of. Fuck, YOU'RE being selfish... You want me to have kids FOR YOU. Plus, I know plenty of people who have kids for hella selfish reasons.
I'm on the other side of this. Got a kid early, now we kind of want to get a second one because we don't want our first to be 12 when we do, but we can barely afford our current life
I'm 27 and my wife is 28. I'm the youngest in the family and my oldest sister is 37 and has one kid. My mom REALLY wants another grandid.
"When I was 21 I bought my house, got married at 25, and had my first kid at 26"
Yeah, that's great, mom - but I cant just go "buy a house" when I have huge student loan debt. How the hell am I to buy a house AND have a kid? With what money
with that little girlfriend of yours
Well i would but shes not old enough for kids yet
What do they mean when they say "don't be selfish"?
"Don't be selfish."
That's not being selfish. Being selfish is intentionally having a kid when you know that you can't afford to cover the cost of medical bills, food, diapers, child care, education, etc.
kids at 23 ? - wat.
I agree wholeheartedly. I was 17 when I got pregnant, and I knew I couldn’t raise my baby, so I placed her for adoption with two wonderful fathers and she’s so much happier then she ever would have been with me.
I’d reword it to, don’t try to raise a kid when you aren’t grown up yourself.
Edit:Wow I’ve been at work, to answer a few questions, I still see her at least twice a year, she turns 3 this July and she’s absolutely amazing. She speaks Spanish and English like I did growing up and she has a great school and a big family. I get pictures of her and update emails all the time as well.
I went through a rough patch last year and thinking about her pulled me out of it. I never wanted her to ask her dads about her birth mom and have to hear some tragic story.
I moved out of the state she’s in a few months ago so it’s harder to see her these days too. But we’re all doing great.
I think the decision you made was very mature, especially for 17. I know adoption isn't for everyone but it always makes me happy to hear a happy adoption story like yours (where you are at peace with your decision and know your kid has a great life with their parents, etc).
Thank you! I’ve written about my story a few times, and I’ve gone through many feelings about it. At one point I felt that adoption was always an option and anybody that didn’t feel ready to have a child should choose adoption. These days I understand the choice isn’t for everybody and that it’s a very difficult decision for most people.
The biggest thing for me was seeing her fathers hold her and realizing that I did that. I made a family. It’s something that has carried me through the past few years.
This makes me feel so much better. I'm 26, currently 37 weeks pregnant, and adopting her out to two men as well. Honestly, at my age and education level I could make it work but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a huge struggle financially and personally. I just don't want to raise a child right now.
Still, sometimes I get emotional thinking about leaving the hospital empty handed but your perspective reminds me of another reason why it's an important choice. Thank you!
You won't be empty handed, you'll have 3 more people that love you and are happy that they know/knew you!
:3
You are amazing for doing this. You are making a very smart decision and you're gonna make those two guys so happy!! I know it's a hard and emotional choice, but keep that positive perspective going.
You can leave the hospital empty-handed, but with a full heart.
Honestly what you're doing is so awesome. Even if you could make it work, it's great that you recognize you don't want to right now, and you're taking steps in line with that. Growing up with parental resentment is not good for a child at all, and I think it should be more acceptable, encouraged even, to do what you're doing when faced with your choice.
Not to take things political, because I'm not a pro-lifer (hell, I'm an atheist) but adoption to a loving couple who want a child, especially to a couple who can't have their own, is ethically and morally the cleanest way to handle this situation. Don't let anyone judge your choices.
Exactly. There's so much more I want to do and achieve that now is not the right time. I, too, am pro choice but unfortunately I found out right around 14 weeks and at that point abortion wasn't really an option in my mind.
This is the best choice I can make for her, and myself, and a lot of peoole really can't understand that. I cant express how grateful I am for the encouragement I've had from random internet strangers. Really, thank you.
<3 You are amazing. I have a friend who can't get pregnant and she and her partner are just getting into the adoption process. Amazing people like you giving other's a chance to raise a family. Thank you.
Thank you. It honestly goes both ways, I'm extremely grateful to the family for being able to give her a life she deserves. Best of luck to your friend! I know the process is not easy or cheap. <3
Think of the joy it brings to the dads too, because they really do need your physical ability to have a child as part of their happiness. And also the joy in giving a stable home to a child that needs one. It's really a circle of life.
It takes so much strength to do that! Yes it’s hard to leave empty handed. What was helpful for me was having support when I left. Not having to drive myself home or worry about anything at home. Keeping myself busy but letting myself grieve.
Thank you for the encouragement! I have a few goals set for postpartum and lots of friends here that have been so supportive, and my caseworker is amazing, which is a huge bonus. Seriously i appreciate the support though :)
That’s awesome and congratulations!
I placed when I was 16 and it was the best decision I ever made.
Can I offer some advice though? There’s a tremendously strong chance you’ll be mentally fucked up for awhile. After placing I became severely depressed and strongly considered suicide.
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I don’t know if it’d help...
The only thing stopping me from trying was the thought of seeing him grow up and then knowing spring was coming.
A few months later I entered in a relationship with a wonderful man and that really helped.
But, mostly importantly have a support circle. I had literally no one, not even my mom, and I’m sure that made it worst.
I'm really proud of you and the decision you're making. You seem like a strong woman :)
You are strong.
That is so dope; reading that gave me the joy chills! You my friend, are the gold standard of handling one's scandaling!😃👍👍👍
"Handling ones scandaling" is a new phrase I love it
That’s hilarious and also thank you.
I've never thought about adoption like that before. You brought a tear to my eye, truly. You created a family; what a beautiful, beautiful thing.
It's what adoption is and it should be the choice everyone makes if they are moral
Um fuck off
Um why?
You're a good human. :)
Coming from the other side of this equation (being adopted) I too struggle with the thought of why anyone wouldn't choose adoption.
As an adult, I can see the all the difficulties and life variables in play that people may struggle with in making this decision.
However, as an adopted child with two adopted siblings, my life is as great as it is because a number of people made this choice. People like you give my parents a chance to have a child that they couldn't on their own. Probably doesn't mean much from an internet stranger, but this is a personal one for me and I appreciate anyone selfless enough to take the route you did.
Thank you! I didn’t expect my comment to get so much attention but this really warms my heart. I struggle sometimes and worry that she will resent me for placing her, because I know people that feel that way and it puts my mind at ease to hear stories like yours.
I made a family
Yes you did, you glorious and charitable human being!
I made a family.
That is so powerful. I’m not crying, you’re crying!!
Instead of making your life and hers miserable for struggling to raise her properly, you made a happy family.
You are an awesome human being. Well done.
So it's a little like organ donation! You made something only you can make, and gave it to someone who needs it, but couldn't make it themselves.
I love that description!
Y'know what's really cool about that? Your relationship with the dads. You've kept yourself in the loop so as she grows up she can get to know her mom. I'm sure there will be rough patches but the great relationship with the dads means you can all work through it and when she's old enough she can forge a strong relationship with you based on an already stable foundation. That's one lucky kid.
Thank you
You created a life AND created a family. That's a wonderful thing. :)
Must have been tough, but very big of you to do that
As tough as jt was it was the easiest decision I ever made. It was clearly the best thing for my daughter and she deserves only the best. I looked over at her fathers holding her after I gave birth and was overwhelmed with the fact that I did that. I made a family.
Couldn't help but to smile at this comment, thanks!
Wow that made me tear up! What a beautiful outlook you have on life and what a beautiful gift you have that family!
That's tremendous and beautiful. It's one thing to make a human, but to make a family like that is truly selfless.
As someone who was adopted, thank you. I never asked why my parents chose adoption instead of having kids "naturally", and never sought info on my biological parents, but I ended up with a really good life and they were able to have the family they wanted while keeping a couple kids from having a potentially rough upbringing.
I made a family.
Ow. My heart. You're a beautiful human.
but very big of you
Since this story is true, it's very big
did they make a quirky comedy about you starring Ellen Paige?
It's great to hear about your tough and mature decision, hope all is going well for you since then.
You gave 3 people very happy lives (4 counting yourself), you truly did the best possible thing right there.
As an adoptee, thank you for making this decision. I was adopted into a wonderful family that provided me with everything and looking back the single decision made by my birth mom put me on a trajectory to have a successful career and life vs struggling in poverty.
I'm adopted.
Interesting fact, it's extremely expensive to go through the adoption process for some reason. (like $22k). I don't know why exactly, but if you took all that anti-abortion lobbying money and put it towards programs that pay for pregnant women's healthcare and lost wages cost and adoption costs I speculate you'd save waaaay more babies than waving bloody signs at college kids.
You did the right thing. Do you keep in touch with her?
Yes I still see her pretty regularly, at least twice a year. She’s 3 in July.
Such a wonderful thing you did for everyone involved.
Thank you! I believe it was the absolute right thing and that her fathers were the absolute right people to raise her.
I was adopted, born to a mother who knew she couldn't give me the life she felt I deserved. My adoptive parents are two of the most amazing people in the world. You did the right thing at a hard time!
Juno, is that you?
I did the same thing at the age of 21! Except it was two wonderful mothers. I may have been older but still wasn’t anywhere near old enough to properly raise a child. Good on you though. I know it can be tough!
Are you in her life now or something? I had an adopted cousin whose mother found her and keeps in touch with her her every week. It started when she was like 10. Anyways her two mothers are getting a little uncomfortable with it and it makes them feel less like parents.
I see her about twice a year honestly, which is great because it allows her to know me without getting over involved.
That sounds perfect to me. I mean who am I to judge this is all stuff I've experienced second-hand.
i agree. my small class of 160 students in high schools managed to have 13 pregnancies, including one guy as the father who had a full ride to rutgers, but the girl he was with literally was a meth whore. Everyone kept their baby except for one, who placed her son in an open adoption. Everyone but her basically has no life, barely a job, and never left their parents home. She however is now getting her phd in social work and works with teen moms going through adoption. to me its a statement that children are often better off in adoptive situations and its wayyyy better for the mom too.
Absolutely. I went through a rough patch last year, but it would have been much worse if I had my daughter with me through everything. I’m finally starting school next spring and getting my life on track. I want to have my career revolve around adoption as well because it’s such a beautiful process.
thats amazing. good luck!
Adopt when you decide to have kids
Do you ever see her?
I see her at least twice a year! She’s so beautiful and perfect
Hey there :) I placed mine when I was 16. Best choice I ever made.
My mom was adopted. I've never seen or met her biological family, but they really don't seem like good people. I'm glad she was adopted.
Did you keep contact with her new family? Are you allowed to visit her every once in a while?
Were they people you already knew or did you meet through an agency?
It was a sort of combination. I went to so many agencies that did not contact me back until we heard through the grapevine that a son of a friend of a friend of a friend was looking to adopt. We got coffee and realized they were perfect and got with their agency.
My brother and his wife just adopted a newborn boy. He will have a loving safe life. Its a great choice!
That’s awesome! Adoption is such a beautiful and loving thing from every party involved.
Yes. My brother is a very conservative restaurant manager/chef/owner who makes plenty of money, and wanted to have kids but waited too long. Hes very gentle with the boy and they have a nice home. Not house, a home. I think you'd approve.
: )
Wow. Your story brought me to tears, but I’m feeling emotionally conflicted. My youngest son just turned 3, and he is the absolute light of my life. My oldest kids are 16 and 14, and I divorced their dad when I was only 30. I never in million years thought I would remarry let alone have another child. But I have my angel now. Seeing that your bio-daughter is also 3 (almost) made me “see” her - if that makes sense. I cried thinking about you not having her in your life, but I am honestly completely in awe of your strength in allowing her to be adopted. I think you sound like an amazing person - not only for knowing your limits and giving her up for adoption, but continuing to use her as your anchor in life. Just reading all your comments to everyone is uplifting and inspiring...and I’m twice your age. Someday when it’s really your time, it sounds like you’re gonna make a great mom. 👍
It’s been hard. I work with kids a lot these days and I just constantly remember my daughter and wonder “what if” like first steps or first words or her life. But I know if I had it all to do over I’d do it all again. I wasn’t ready to be a mom, and I’m still not ready to be a mom. It’s a difficult journey but one that I am ever grateful for. Thank you for your kind words.
It’s terrible that you second guess yourself sometimes (“second guess” is a harsh term, but I couldn’t think of an equivalent??) but only you know your circumstances and what you were ready for. Are you happy it was an open adoption? Do you think that made your decision easier? Why did you decide to go that route? And I just realized these questions are incredibly intrusive so feel free to tell me to get bent.
And that's how we got the sitcom "My two Dads"
You are an amazing person. I can't imagine the strength it took for you to make this decision. It is such a great time to be able to use the internet to share pictures and updates so you can keep up with her life and see her grow up. I'm glad you found a good family for her and that they are doing a great job.
That's a big spoon full of adultness right there. I'm happy for you.
Thank you for going the adoption route and not abortion.
Edit: I'm not trying to be political, just thanking someone for saving a life.
You are not in /r/politics
Sometimes I get down about my mediocre grades and weed use but then I see stuff like this and realize I'm doing pretty alright in my decision making
Ironically, the people who are smart enough to actively take this decision are better suited to raising children than ones who do it on a whim without much thought.
/r/IdiocracyIsADocumentary
Reddit wouldn't let me make it. The closest I could get was /r/IdiocracyIsTrue
This should be real... lol
Then make it real
Tangential comment, but awesome username, my dude!
Yeah it really irked me at the time that /u/megitsune without the underscores was taken though, and that it was inactive
Damn the inactive usernames! I wish I'd thought of a good username when I joined. I could always just make a new account, but this one has so much history and there are a few users I keep in contact with, so I prefer to keep this onefor now. I'm assuming yours is named after the Babymetal song, right?
Yeah I was having a big babymetal phase back then
What a fun idea for a band. I also went through a phase myself, but since then I have seen them twice. Once at Reading festival when I didn't realise they were playing until the day, and once when they supported Red Hot Chili Peppers in London (yeah... I know, right?!). Fucking awesome both times. Gotta love a fusion genre.
We already make it real. Lower IQ is associated with higher birthrates. The high IQ of those in the north was likely a result of lower IQ people dying off more, not a result of smarter people having more children.
Now that the lower IQ people don't die off from cold, harsh winters anymore, the avg potential IQ is starting to drop. I say potential because IQ can still raise from better nutrition, medicine, and habits during development, but at some point we plateau, and the top of that plateau erodes as the lower IQ people out-breed the higher IQ people.
To be honest, we probably need some kind of permit to make babies, and should face sterilization if we make babies outside of our permit.
I think /u/megitsune was talking about the subreddit
lol
lol
You realize that's eugenics, right? I don't think we need to involuntarily sterilize people who we think aren't good enough to raise kids. That's a huge violation of people's rights.
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Im positive eugenics can work for some things. Its possible it works for intelligence. Even if it does though, I personally believe that it is interfering with perhaps the most essential human right, or at least an extension of it. We have a right to exist, and I think part of that is having a right to continue our existence biologically in some way, assuming it's among consensual parties. I dont enjoy the fact that people are allowed to spew slurs and insults either. I think society would be better if they stopped, but I wholeheartedly believe they should have the right to say it.
You realize that's eugenics, right?
Yes. This does not bother me, I think at some point we need to reconcile that the problem of lower IQ people outbreeding higher IQ people will damage our ability as a species to progress. In the West eugenics is a dirty word, but it's not so dirty in the East, and like it or not, China is already working on genetically modifying people to have a high IQ. We either must compete with them on this field, or give up and let them, and their ideology, surpass us entirely.
I don't think we need to involuntarily sterilize people who we think aren't good enough to raise kids. That's a huge violation of people's rights.
I respect your thoughts, but I do not see it as any less of violation of people's rights as it is to take from those with higher IQ's and give to those with lower IQs. Higher IQ people will continue to make the world a nice place for those with lower IQ's, and that, in my opinion, is plenty enough to make up for the fact that lower IQ people cannot make their own children. Also, I would support lower IQ people being allowed to adopt a baby that has been breed to have a higher IQ, so they can still raise children if they want too.
Eugenics is a dirty word in the west because it's been used almost exclusively to discriminate against racial and ethnic minorities deemed inferior. Intelligence is an incredibly relative concept, and genetic capability for iq is almost entirely outweighed by environment. Most stupid people are stupid because they were raised in such a way that they weren't encouraged to be smart.
Also, I think it's perfectly fine to genetically modify people in such a way that it alters existing DNA, but not to preclude people from existing or from giving birth because their DNA is deemed inferior.
genetic capability for iq is almost entirely outweighed by environment.
Unless you are in a really bad environment, it is the other way around.
I highly doubt that. Rich people generally tend to do better in life because they are given easier paths to education in all forms. It isn't because they're blue bloods and are born biologically better than others.
It is genetic. IQ is at least 50% genetic, and we don't really know what the other 50% is.
My comment posted earlier was autoremoved because it contained too many links... I really hate this, because it makes conversations requiring the citing of sources difficult to have.
Intelligence is an incredibly relative concept, and genetic capability for iq is almost entirely outweighed by environment.
This is only true for very young children. The older that you get, the more genetics plays a role in your IQ. I will post source for this if requested
Most stupid people are stupid because they were raised in such a way that they weren't encouraged to be smart.
This sounds like a faith based argument, not a scientific based argument. It does not personally bother me if some people choose to subscribe to faith based beliefs, but you should know that science does not necessarily agree with you.
What we do know is that IQ seems to have been mostly correlated with climate. Specifically that humans who evolved in colder, harsher climates, also evolved higher IQ, as the humans less inclined to prepare and invest in their future were far more likely to die off.
Sources
Latitudes correlate with height, IQ, and skin color at r = 0.70, 0.44, 0.47, respectively. IQ also correlates with height (0.52), skin color (0.42), income (0.51) after correction, less homicide rate (− 0.60), and less divorce (− 0.69) but not with fertility infant mortality... We can calculate that 1 IQ point raises their average income by 2.5%. This estimate is in line with the 2–3% given by Jencks (1972) and Murray (1998, 2002) - Kenya Kura (2013) - Japanese North–south gradient in IQ predicts differences in stature, skin color, income, and homicide rate
Richard Lynn has been constantly improving his datasets over several decades now, and I highly reccomend his newest book "Race Differences in Intelligence: An Evolutionary Analysis". In it he presents numerous cases, tables, experiments and cites more papers than I even have access or time to read.
The science behind evolution is clear. We must acknowledge that different groups of a species (humans) who evolved for hundreds or even thousands of years geographically isolated from each other, in places with different environmental pressures for survival, are mathematically guaranteed to evolve differently from each other.
I guess I'll start with Kanazawa if we're gonna make this about authority and not common human decency, but here ya go. He's not exactly respected as a social psychologist among his peers, and the data shows that it's not because he hurt their fee fees.Oh, I guess he thinks Black women just so happen to be less attractive too. Seems like Richard Lynn is not the most respected either. That Kenya Kura person seems to be an assistant professor at some Japanese university, so there wasn't much English stuffI could find about him aside from that article.
So it seems to me like you are explicitly and unapologetically admitting to being a racist now. I don't have the amount of time or desire to try to get you to change your opinion on the science behind it, and admittedly I don't have the scientific background to do it properly anyway, so I'll ask you a question. Even if Black people and stupid people and whoever are explicitly less good than White people or smart people, are they not human? I don't know where you're from, but in America and in essentially all liberal societies, humans have certain absolute rights that they are entitled to based solely on the fact that they are human. If they begin to do negative things because of their characteristics, then those things can be addressed after they have been done, but punishing people based on statistical likelihood of committing a future wrongdoing is absolutely against everything that we should hold dear. I really hope you change your opinion.
He's not exactly respected as a social psychologist among his peers, and the data shows that it's not because he hurt their fee fees.
You say that, but the scientific article that you've posted actually seems to contradict you. It doesn't say that the science disagrees with Kanazawa, it rather seems to rely, as you did, on the faith based and emotional response of "the conclusion of this data is 'racist', there-for it must be wrong".
Oh, I guess he thinks Black women just so happen to be less attractive too
Did he just walk around saying "hey I think this and I have no data to support it", or did he actually do a study, collect data, and arrive at this conclusion based on the data? It looks like he went out and retrieved data and is repeating the conclusions that he reached based on that data.
Richard Lynn is not the most respected either
Similar to your last article about Kanazawa, the whole arguement against his data is that "it's racist", not "the data is wrong". These are appeals to emotion, or as you put it "fee fees", not an appeal against the data that he has posted.
So it seems to me like you are explicitly and unapologetically admitting to being a racist now.
No, not at all. I don't care what race, skin color, ethnicity, or even non-racial things like religion, you are. I do however, acknowledge the science behind differences between sub-groups of the human race. Some groups will be taller, some groups will be more muscular, some will be more likely to experience certain diseases, some will be more likely to have twins, some will be more likely to have specific blood types, we can identify different subgroups based on nothing more than their skeleton, and yes, mental differences exist too, particularly because of evolutionary factors that occurred over thousands of generations while the sub-groups were relatively isolated from each other. Even in the modern day, we notice parallels to our past. A sub-group of the human race which lived in the tropics with year round food is more likely to subscribe to the "live in the moment" philosophy than a sub-group of the human race which lived near the in polar regions and had to plan for the future to survive. Sure enough, take a "tropical" ethnicity and a "polar" ethnicity, and rank them by income. You will almost always find that the polar group is more likely to be investing and planning for their future compared to the tropic group. The best explanation that we have for this phenomena, is likely because of the way the last several thousand generations of people have been shaped based on climate and environmental pressures. By the way, what about this means "hate" to you? Do you hate people who like to live in the moment? It seems to me that many people find that philosophy enlightening and a pathway to more happiness... but do you personally hate them? I don't hate them, and I don't understand where you draw the conclusion that hate must be present, unless of course, it's a projection of your own feelings.
Even if Black people and stupid people and whoever are explicitly less good than White people or smart people, are they not human?
This question is so disjunct from the actual conversation to me, and it's hard for me to conclude anything other than it being your own projection. You're seriously questioning whether or not part of the human race is actually human? First off, anyone who can breed with a human, is a human, their IQ doesn't matter, nor does their ethnicity, nor does their sociological race, nor does their religion, nor anything else. Second off, I do not like the term "stupid people", and I want to stress that those words are entirely yours, and not mine. All people are smart. Humans are intelligent beings.
What we know is that lower IQ humans (regardless of ethnicity) not only currently outbreed higher IQ humans, but also that they always seem to have been outbreeding higher IQ humans. The moral and altruistic question is "Would we rather live in a society where the IQ drops to the current 85, or would we rather raise the IQ to 115?" Most people agree, higher IQ is better, and groups with higher IQ are associated with just about any positive metric that you can think of. Their skin color and ethnicity and all other factors do not matter. We can completely ignore them.
Given that data consistently shows that lower IQ people outbreed higher IQ people, and that the plateau of maximum potential IQ is lowering. Would you want to live in a world where the avg IQ was 85, or would you rather live in a society where the avg IQ was 115?
It isn't about what I want, it's about what I believe that humans are entitled to by virtue of being human. Humans deserve the right to autonomy over their body when they aren't directly harming someone with it. Your speculation that if we were to sterilize those with a low iq then the world would become significantly better is just a speculation. I know it's taboo to bring up Hitler in an online argument, but I think it might be appropriate when discussing eugenics. He certainly thought that removing the invalids and the genetically impure from the gene pool would lead to a German super-state and a perfected world. He based that idea off of science at the time which was much more reputable in its contemporaneity than your cited science is, but he also based much of his belief off of socially-constructed observations which were overwhelmingly influenced by the time and place in which he acted. If you aren't being explicitly hateful with your rhetoric, than you must be either a true sociopath or else someone who is incredibly misguided.
It isn't about what I want
Yes, it kind of is, because it's about what we all want. Do you want to have a low IQ? Do you want to be surrounded by people who have a low IQ?
This is important because your failure to reconcile with the fact that lower IQ people outbreed higher IQ people will inevitably lead to more people in the world being surrounded by lower IQ people.
Your speculation that if we were to sterilize those with a low iq then the world would become significantly better is just a speculation
No it's not, it's based on data of how groups of people act once we aggregate them based on IQ. I mean, unless this is just an odd way of saying that any prediction of the future is "speculation", since we obviously can't observe the future.
If you aren't being explicitly hateful with your rhetoric, than you must be either a true sociopath or else someone who is incredibly misguided.
Based on the way that you are writing, it sounds like you agree with me that some people have higher IQ's and some people have lower IQs. You seem hellbent on bringing race and "purity" into the discussion, while I don't personally care about race, ethnicity or any of that other nonsense. If you want to talk about purity, I encourage you to do so with someone else, but it doesn't interest me in the slightest, and so I am going to decline the topic with this "I don't give a damn about racial or ethnic purity, in fact, I'm not ethnically pure myself, and I don't think anyone, including myself, has ever cared".
[Hitler] certainly thought that removing the invalids
Would you call a women who aborted her baby because it had Downs Syndrome a hateful Nazi?
You must be deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying at this point, because clearly when you sterilize mass numbers of people deemed to be inferior, that is not going to be what they want. It is impossible to run society along such a steadfastly utilitarian set of policies, because there is no universally agreed upon set of rules indicating what is the most efficient way to manage a society with trillions of variables. Also, if lower iq people have been so much more fertile than higher iq people, why wasn't the world consumed by idiocy during the industrial revolution? Surely that would have been the bottleneck for when the stupid peasants and proletariats engulfed the enlightened upper classes and brought about a new dark age.
Again, I don't know enough about the biology of the matter to properly address the minutia of the scientific claim, although I doubt you have as much experience as you claim to. Scientists rarely care about publishing controversial findings, and when those findings stemlike they are actually worth anything they will be embraced despite any backlash by people who don't understand.
Obviously, I know that some people have higher iqs than others, but I think that iq is not a wholly valid metric to judge someone's intelligence by, let alone their usefulness or worth in society. I brought race into it because you linked an article concluding that biological factors of race are linked to difference in iq. By the way, I think ethnicity is a much more valid determining factor in iq, although still at a very general scale because it is too difficult to determine such broad factors. Ethnicity has nothing to do with genetics.
Finally, the issue here is clearly about consent. A woman consenting to abort a fetus with Downs Syndrome is very different from forcibly sterilizing people who are deemed to be unfit parents by any standards, or even forcibly aborting fetuses with Downs Syndrome or other undesirable conditions, because it is still the mother's choice.
You must be deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying at this point
I feel the same way about what you are saying about me. Honestly, I think a large point of contention is the language that you are using to describe what I am saying, and I truly believe that you are using intentionally misleading language to describe my stance. Words like "purity", "inferior", "stupid", and "idiocy" are words that you have chosen to use, not me, stop trying to put your shitty words into my mouth. But it gets worse, you use words like "stupid peasants" and idiocy" after I have already clarified "All people are smart. Humans are intelligent beings".
Second, you ask questions that are entirely inappropriate for reasonable and rational discourse. Earlier you questioned whether or not a persons skin color had an impact on whether or not they are human. Prior to your question, there was no implication at all of classifying anyone as "not human". Those thoughts came entirely from you, not me.
Also, if lower iq people have been so much more fertile than higher iq people, why wasn't the world consumed by idiocy during the industrial revolution?
Low IQ does not mean "stupid" nor does it mean "idiot" nor does it mean "impure", nor does it imply that anyone should hate anyone else. Anyone, regardless of race, creed, sexual orientation, etc. is capable of being born with a high IQ and also is capable of being born with a low IQ... it's all on a bell curve, and quite frankly, it seems that there is a bit of luck involved.
If you could rephrase your question in a more honest and less passive aggressive manner, you might ask "Why hasn't the avg IQ lowered since the dawn on the industrial revolution?", and that would be a great question. The "maximum achievable avg IQ" is something that we never actually reach in practice. However, when we aren't getting enough nutrition, and when there are high rates of poverty, large groups of people will not receive the care and resources that they need to achieve their maximum potential. As the industrial revolution brought riches to large groups of people, they inched closer and closer to their maximum potential, and sure enough the raise that we have seen in IQ over the past century is finally starting to level off as we in the wealthiest parts of the world all receive more than enough resources to reach near our maximum potential. In other words, our rising IQ in the western nations has started to plateau, and in some areas, it's already lowering. In time, even if we continue to give ourselves the same or more resources, there is little that we can do to raise it, other than genetic intervention (which Eastern nations, namely China, are starting to do).
but I think that iq is not a wholly valid metric to judge someone's intelligence by, let alone their usefulness or worth in society.
This isn't about judging people, it's about what we can do to mitigate the reality that lower IQ people outbreed higher IQ people. If we do nothing, we will begin to enter a process where our avg IQ is falling, and it seems that no one, even lower IQ people, would want that. I think that generally speaking, nearly everyone would prefer to have a higher IQ if it could magically be granted, and nearly everyone would to prefer that other people also see a rise in their IQ... I sure don't hear anyone hollering that they wish the avg IQ of people would be lowered, do you? If I could give you a drug where the only side effect is that it lowered your IQ, would you take it? If IQ doesn't matter, then it really shouldn't matter if you take the drug, right? My assumption is that you want a higher IQ if possible, because on some level you do understand that higher IQ's are associated with nearly everything that we consider to be "desirable traits/standards".
Finally, the issue here is clearly about consent. A woman consenting to abort a fetus with Downs Syndrome is very different from forcibly sterilizing people who are deemed to be unfit parents by any standards
Well first off, I doubt that the baby with Downs Syndrome is consenting to their abortion.
Second off, I never said that lower IQ people could not be parents. I actually support lower IQ people still being parents, just not to any more than one of their own biological children. In my ideal scenario, birthing would be done with permits, and part of obtaining a permit would be to take an IQ test. If you preform poorly, then you will not be awarded a permit. You will not be sterilized for this. However, you will be sterilized for having a baby without a permit, meaning that the mother and father who fail to obtain a permit, will still be able to have one (biological) child of their own, but will have to adopt to acquire more children.
Most stupid people are stupid because they were raised in such a way that they weren't encouraged to be smart.
All the more reason they shouldn't be having kids, then.
I'm saying that its a societal issue, not a biological one. If you're bothered by stupidity you should advocate for improvement in social support systems and education.
I'm sorry what? That's literally not even giving them a chance...this is some Orwellian shit yall
That’s some Orwellian shit man. Humanity isn’t ready to play god like that. I could see it being ok in the future when we’re a more advanced and responsible society but not now. That kind of thing is easily manipulated by people in power. Genetic modification would’ve been Hitler’s wet dream. You get one asshole with an agenda in charge of a eugenics program then we’ve got a major problem. And who’s to say which traits we phase out and which ones we keep? It’s a dirty word for a reason.
Humanity isn’t ready to play god like that.
Someone has to start playing god, the chair's empty right now.
Maybe. But was there a chair to begin with? Should there even be a chair? What’s it made out of? I like a good mahogany myself.
Humanity isn’t ready to play god like that.
We already are by having a higher abortion rate for Down's Syndrome.
This is not even close to the same as genetic modification selection for higher IQ.
Maybe not technologically similar, but the ethics and results are. The only place different ethics comes in is when it is combined with monetary incentives for, or mandatory sterilization. But it's still eugenics either way, it's just that one way is crowd-sourced.
No, not even ethically. For multiple reasons.
1, Downs is an objective chromosomal aberration. There is no debate whether Downs is a disease or not (like debate over IQ).
2, genetics of Downs is simple. On the other hand, quantitatively determined traits are really hard to figure out, even in plants where we can know the entire history of a plant in a greenhouse and choose exactly which plants to breed it with. We know exactly what causes Downs, and it is not as complicated as a quantitative trait like IQ.
3, aborting a fetus with Downs is more straightforward. It either has downs or it doesnt, and Downs also leads to more problems than just IQ. Objectively.
Lastly, the implication from the above posts is that the eugenics would be forced...in this case, nobody ever suggested forced abortion of fetuses with Downs.
Having a below average IQ and having Downs Syndrome are not the same thing
Having a below average IQ and having Downs Syndrome are not the same thing
Your premise seems to be that I said that, when I did not.
Whether or not hereditary IQ can be considered a disease, or whether the genetics are complicated or not, fall under technology. Once technology can select for hereditary IQ, those questions will be mostly answered. Though with a more objective test than IQ, the abnormalities that cause low IQ will be specified and won't require an IQ test to determine, so likely won't be called IQ at that point.
The ethics of aborting a fetus because of negative traits are similar, even if those traits vary may in severity.
Hmm. I think that they are similar, yes, but I argue that due to the difference in severity, the situations are different enough from each other that the ethics need to be applied differently.
Also we are now addressing two separate issues: genetics and ethics. We are honestly several decades to discovering any good markers for cognitive abilities. We may have several signatures that are associated with lower cognitive ability (runs of homozygosity, inbreeding coefficients to name two), but these are associations and not true markers. Due to what we know now of IQ, hereditary IQ will never be considered a disease beyond what we already know. It's so variable between generations... a very low IQ is already treated as a disease, but that's not based on genetics. Maybe that will be some day. But anything above an IQ of like 40 will probably never be able to be diagnosed as above disease from fetal genome sequencing alone.
How will that work out long term? If people are self selecting out a mutation long-term will it result in a lower probability of occurrence ?.
I suppose it depends on the heritability of the mutation. In this case, it will have little long-term effect on the population.
Genetic modification would’ve been Hitler’s wet dream.
Hitler also enjoyed an atmosphere with ample oxygen for breathing... would you say that we should eliminate a breathable atmosphere since Hitler liked breathing?
On a less extreme example of why "Hitler liked this" is not a valid argument, Hitler had the military build houses for the homeless, do you think it was wrong for Hitler to fund programs to build homes for homeless people?
And who’s to say which traits we phase out and which ones we keep?
Well, for one thing, our governing body, but I don't really think that this is a case of slippery slope. The agenda is clear, we're phasing out the trait of low IQ, and no other factors. The morality behind it is that it must be done, because we have ample data to show that lower IQ people outbreed higher IQ people. Further, we are not banning lower IQ people from raising children, so this really should not negatively affect anyone's life, if anything it should improve the lives of everyone. It's purely altruistic.
I didn’t say that to state what Hitler enjoyed. I said it because it would be perfectly in line with his racially fueled agenda.
Because the government always knows what’s best and is out to serve the people’s best interests. Right. Again it just takes one asshole. And it’s absolutely a slippery slope. Anything like this is. Because it becomes so easy to abuse.
This is a case of good intentions with no foresight of the potential consequences. The only way I think genetic modification should be used is to eliminate terminal or disabling diseases. Dictating what a child’s personality or intelligence will be is a crime against nature. People should grow and develop how they were meant to, not according to an overly pragmatic government regulation. The only thing the government should doing in this regard is ensuring the country is a safe, healthy environment that encourages good development
I want to maintain an open environment for discussion, and I think that my last comment was too preachy, and did not sufficiently accomplish my ideal of an open environment. I apologize.
Where I see us disagreeing seems to be that you see a slippery slope where I do not. In my mind, basing birthing rights on IQ seems like a fair and clear line. You seem to worry that the line would be (or at least could be) shifted, if we give way on the IQ issue. It would be my assertion that by drawing the line so clearly for IQ, there should be no reason to move it going forward, and further, shifting the line in the future would require a different set of ethics/moral principles.
What do you think?
The idea of “birthing rights” seems like a pretty different set of ethics and morals to begin with. You’re only allowed to give birth if you meet certain standards? That feels so wrong. I get the presented benefits but it’s a restriction of freedom that doesn’t sit well with me at all. And I don’t think making IQ the line would stop it from being pushed.
But if something like birthing rights were to be put in place I think it should be based on something more practical instead of something you’re born with. Like you can’t have a child unless you have a certain level of income and mental stability. That makes more sense to me than enforcing eugenics.
And I didn’t feel like you were being too preachy. No more than I am at least.
And I don’t think making IQ the line would stop it from being pushed.
When you say being pushed, am I correct to assume that you are (on some level) being concerned with the line being pushed to racial/ethnic standards (among other things)? I would consider this a valid concern, given history, I just want to make sure that I am on the same page as you.
But if something like birthing rights were to be put in place I think it should be based on something more practical instead of something you’re born with.
I would have to admit, part of me agrees with that, but I resist the urge to follow that line or reasoning because data has shown that higher IQ is associated with lower birth rates. I suppose that if there were some way to flip this trend, I wouldn't feel the need to support birthing permits.
I think there is a morality behind the idea of pushing agendas that raise the average IQ, as I think almost all of society would prefer that the avg IQ be raised to what is currently 130, and would be less happy if the average IQ fell to what is currently 85. To me, the fact that nearly all people want IQ to be higher is part of what justifies the restriction of freedom in this case. What do you think?
Yes racial/ethnic standards were my first thought but it could go to other things too. And yeah a higher average IQ would be better for everyone. I'm not arguing that the result is beneficial. I just don't think that's the kind of path that should be taken. People should be able to choose who they want to have children with freely. That's a basic human right to me and the government has no right to say otherwise just to artificially progress society(potentially) a little.
IQ is not an objective measure of intelligence or ability. If there was a way to measure brain capacity I would agree with you.
IQ is not an objective measure of intelligence or ability.
Eh, to a point, but once you start aggregating the achievements and failures of groups of people based on their IQ, you find that the average IQ of a group is positively correlated to more wealth, less prison sentences, less divorce, and less children. You're right, a person with an IQ of 85 can become a millionaire, or a rocket scientist, but generally speaking, it's much more difficult for them compared to a person with an IQ of 130. Additionally, someone with an IQ of 130 might go out and murder someone.
Overall, the data is clear that society would be objectively better across just about any metric that you can think of if the average IQ could be raised to what is currently 130, and society would be objectively worse if we allow IQ to fall to what is currently 85.
Put differently, how many people do you think would support the idea of the average IQ falling? My guess is that you won't find much support. We know that lower IQ people outbreed higher IQ people, and if we do nothing, the reality is that the maximum potential IQ will continue to fall.
Is there a standard IQ test? I encourage you to look into the history of its creation.
What do you mean by "standard IQ test"? Are you asking me if there is only one test, because that sort of question indicates that you aren't really all that familiar with the modern concept of an IQ test, which is actually an aggregate of multiple standardized tests.
The multiple tests, by which standard are they held to?
Is there peer-reviewed research suggesting that these tests are an objective measurement of intelligence?
The multiple tests, by which standard are they held to?
The average score of the test takers. IQ appears to be a bell curve, with most people falling within a singe standard deviation. Once you've had enough people take a test, you can use the scores to find the average, and that would be your "score 100". When people today take tests designed in 1950, we score higher, mostly as a result of better health decisions (and lower poverty rates preventing people from getting enough nutrition). This trend appears to be leveling off in the affluent areas of the world.
Is there peer-reviewed research suggesting that these tests are an objective measurement of intelligence?
What exactly do you mean by "objective measurement of intelligence", can you please define what an objective measurement of intelligence would be, and what it would signify? I felt that we were previously in agreement that intelligence is abstract.
You may not be ready, but humanity is already doing it. Places like Denmark and Iceland have a 98% rate of abortion when a baby is found to have down syndrome, hell the US is at like 70% already.
Source
I don’t think that’s the same thing. Not what I’m thinking of anyway. I’m kind of torn on abortion in general but I think that’s fine. That’s not full on eugenics. But avoiding having a child with a life ruining disease is not the same as determining their intelligence through genetic modification.
Once again we are already there, it's just a matter of time before it becomes common practice. It is sort of a slippery slope as we fall behind other nations even further, being lower intelligence could be seen as a life ruining disease.
That article outlined exactly what I’m saying. Getting rid of defects like diseases is great. Actually designing your child to be “perfect” is disgusting. If you consider normal human intelligent to be a defect then there’s some thing wrong with you. And it’s all experimental. We’re hardly “there” yet.
In the West eugenics is a dirty word
Of course it is! It's the nazis! ^/s
Human rights violations notwithstanding, eugenics was never a good idea; why aspects of our genetic make-up we might perceive as inferior/inadequate rose to dominance are unfathomable, and any attempt at enforcing selective breeding in an effort to curb said perceptions reduces biodiversity, creating the potential to doom our species altogether.
I'm not really sure that your link actually refutes the benefits of curbing the outbreeding of lower IQ populations, for a few reasons. The idea of birth permits doesn't completely eliminate the actual "undesired" traits, since all people would inherently be entitled to at least one biological child, since no sterilization would happen until after an unlawful pregnancy. Also, there is no reason to completely eliminate a trait (in this case lower IQ), but rather to make sure that the smarter people are actually the ones reproducing most often. An alternate solution would be to offer some sort of system to promote smarter people breeding more.
I would argue that this process can be controlled rather easily. What cannot be controlled easily would be once the global IQ drops beyond a certain point, we all turn back into barbarians, unable to run society safely or effectively. This sort of thing could very well be the proverbial great filter which prevents species from leaching out into space. Once a civilization reaches this point, they allow the lower IQ groups to take over via out-breeding and society is never able to recover.
So, argue; I’m sure we’d all love to hear how you intend to “elevate” the human race while abiding millions of years worth of genetic mutation so as to not leave the species vulnerable to the myriad of environmental pitfalls we’ve long since evolved to circumvent, all to service a metric - your hallowed IQ test- that barely acts as an accurate measure of general intelligence, or ‘g factor’ (which, by the way, only accounts for 1 out of the 8-10 forms of intelligence).
Stop being hyperbolic. If there was a pill that could drop your IQ by 15 points, would you take it? If not, why not? I mean, if IQ doesn't matter, then it shouldn't hurt you to lower your IQ, right?
When you say "hyperbolic", are you referring to:
a) the article about Prion's disease among cannibals in PNG I employed as an example of the enigmatic nature of Darwinian evolution?
b) the various forms of intelligence that, while very much inclusive of general intelligence (the factor IQ tests measure), illustrate a person's value to society is much too complex a matter to be whittled down to standardized arbitration?
c) that we are the result of millions upon millions of years worth of genetic mutation?
At best, you don't know what hyperbole is. At worst, you do know what hyperbole is, and your failure to grasp a fairly understated, easy-to-digest perspective was so profound, you interpreted it as an egregious exaggeration.
Whichever the case, for your sake, I sincerely hope reproduction doesn't come under government control and, more importantly, isn't scrutinized based on intellectual merit, as I don't imagine your bloodline could survive such a purge with you as it's representative.
If there was a pill that could drop your IQ by 15 points, would you take it? If not, why not? I mean, if IQ doesn't matter, then it shouldn't hurt you to lower your IQ, right?
Only dating hot people is eugenics. Involuntarily sterilizing "undesirables" is also eugenics. The word is too broad to be meaningful. You can't just say "that's eugenics and that's bad". There has to be another word, or a qualifier...like involuntary eugenics or something.
Eugenics in the popular context has only ever been used to describe sterilization or execution of humans deemed genetically inferior, usually by some arbitrary metric.
YEah but almost no one respects the rights of people who want to voluntaritly be sterilized.
That's equally a right. You have no legitimate objection to that until you support the right to be sterilized.
I don't really know what you mean. I do fully support the right of people to voluntarily be sterilized, what a person does with their own body that only directly impacts their body should only be their business.
lol if you think that IQ Is a meaningful measurement of intelligence
I mean, I definitely would rather live in a world where IQ was raised... if IQ was meaningless, then would you be satisfied to go live in any area where the avg IQ was 85 or lower? Holy shit, there are some areas where the avg IQ is 70, can you imagine, that's the average, that means that half the population are below that.
IQ literally means nothing. You're rambling on about pointless shit.
Is this the opinion of an expert in Psychology, or are you making things up?
https://listverse.com/2013/05/19/8-reasons-the-iq-is-meaningless/
read
Ah yes, the reputable psychological journal known as "listverse". Or maybe you could get your facts from a Harvard psychologist
you think i care what some nerd in a suit thinks
Well you got a laugh out of me, I'll give you that troll
not trolling its 11pm and i have a cold
There is This One. it’s not bad.
I tried to make it real but was told, "that name isn't going to work". I don't know why. It doesn't look like a banned sub or anything that I'm trying to preempt. It seems like Reddit admins have explicitly disallowed that name.
sniff WRONG obligatory xkcd comic
tl:Dr?
tl;dr is that fertility and intelligence are strongly negatively correlated.
Thank you, I'm at work and just don't have time to go through the wiki. Any idea how they square this with history? As in, if this has always been true then why hasn't the "idiocracy" culture already occurred? why are there more educated people then there were 100/200 years ago
Just in the modern age where death due to starvation isn't a problem.
eh, I appreciate the new perspective on this but I don't think a solid case has been presented to say that Xkcd is wrong. but I did lean something today so thank you for rhat
But...but XKCD is never wrong. How could the funny stick man lie to me?
It's weird, but it seems like "fertility rate" should measure how many women are able to have children, while "birth rate" should be the measure of how many children they are having. Whether or not a woman is fertile has nothing to do with the amount of children they are having, so why do they call it a fertility rate? Also, what do they call the measurement of how fertile women are?
That doesn't make any counter arguments. I'm not trying to be a smart ass, and I haven't even seen Idiocracy, but it makes sense that less intelligent people reproducing more would lead to a less intelligent population
It's as simple as intelligence not being a cut and dry 'genetics' issue. Mostly because intelligence is a nebulous concept in the first place, and IQ especially is a bad measure of it.
IQ isn't exactly excellent, but it is by far the best measure we've got. Note that I mean real IQ, not random tests on Facebook.
The counter Argument is that uneducated people have historically ALWAYS put bred educated people. So to follow your/the movies logic, we should see more and more dumb people and less intelligent people. However, IQs generally increase due to access to education that's not dependent on wealth.
that being said someone told me in another reply that the research doesn't make this as clear cut as I thought, so I don't don't, maybe I'm accidentally full of BS, lol. make your own decision ;)
Idiocracy was a better timeline. I want president kamacho
Fertility is inversely correlated to intelligence.
This has been demonstrated by a number of different studies, over various countries, and even within specific socio-economic classes, across different races, and within specific communities.
Yes, but that does not necessarily mean that there are more and more stupid people. This is pretty easily evidenced by average IQ constantly going up.
I honestly hate this "Idiocracy is real" meme. It's always put forth by smug redditors that have no clue what they're talking about. Stupid people have kids, but they're not gonna annihilate the global average iq.
Did you see who was voted for POTUS
Right, we're genetically regressing as a society because we voted for a demagogue who probably used massive amounts of propaganda and possibly even straight up election fraud to win. No where else on the planet has ever chosen a bad leader. Oh wait, this shit happens all the time. People have always been stupid, and some people have always been smart.
This happening elsewhere on the planet doesn’t reject my point but proves it. The success of bigots in politics seems to be increasing.
Also, it’s not genetic.
Idiocracy is a movie about the genetic selection against intelligence. Also, global politics moves in cycles. There are probably already dozens of papers written on why people are turning to isolationism and nationalism, and there will be dozens more, but I will legitimately give you money if you ever manage to find an academic paper that says people are behaving this way because we as a species are getting dumber.
Idiocracy is a movie about genetic selection only if you view it very narrowly. I view it more like a movie about not rejecting stupidity and how it ends up if we accept others opinions even if they are not based on anything.
Edit: POTUS stupidity should be rejected before we even get to the actual issues he’s supporting. It doesn’t begin with nationalism, it begins with basic understanding how world works.
No, its premise is literally that society in the future got so much stupider than today because of the higher fertility rate of stupid people. That's what the whole opening sequence is about.
Yes, that’s the plot. The message has more depth.
Call me cynical then, but I just think that the last 2,000 years of criticizing society for becoming less discerning have led to a society that has overall been pretty consistently the same as far as being discerning.
Given what is going on right now, the world of Idiocracy would be a welcome change
/r/iamverysmart
sobs violently
el chapo is a podcast
Bit of a misnomer there even for comedy's sake. Self fulfilling prophecy however would be on point.
This is why there are more kids that are born to stupid parents than smart parents. Typically the stupid parents have a TON of kids and the smart parents wait until later in life then might have a few.
On the bright side, most of them are making important contributions to society
"Don't worry, scrote. There are plenty of 'tards out there living really kick-ass lives. My first wife was 'tarded. She's a pilot now."
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Didn't say that. Op said those that are better suited to raise kids aren't having them so I said they're still contributing to society
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FTFY in the original comment
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Up to you
People who ultimately don't want children are tragically the kind of people who should have children because they are actually weighing how much time and work go into raising a family.
The reason for not having children usually boils down to a respect for what raising a family takes. Having children can be any reason but that.
I dunno, I can think of endless reasons why I don't want kids.
Maybe, but it all comes to some sort of rational respect for how much time and money and what not children take from you. That was more my point.
People have children to up their welfare, save a marriage, trap a person into child support, accidentally, because "that's what people do", the list goes on.
Not really and I don't exactly want kids but I want to help someone and that is why I am going to adopt especially because it's moreally moral than having a child
That is exactly why fertility is inversely proportional to intelligence.
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Well, the science is very confident that IQ is significantly hereditary, and that IQs in Mexico, South America, certain parts of Asia and Northern Africa are one standard deviation lower than the US, with sub saharan Africa two standard deviations lower than the US. There has to be a change in policy that helps those people participate in society, because they and their children will have significant dificulty finding employment. Life at 80 IQ is a daily struggle and they need help. I don't think it's wise to bring in hundreds of thousands of them per year, where basically only job they can do is being on welfare or if they are lucky some retail, some assembly line work.
Or those of us who wait until things are stable then find themselves unable...
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The idea that there are all these kids out there who need to be adopted is a myth. Demand FAR outstrips supply. You can help by fostering, but then you’re taking kids that are challenging and you might not get to keep them if you make progress.
Also international adoption is nearly impossible now, unless you're taking kids with medical issues... if you're up for that then yes, please do it. I don't know that I'd have the resources mentally or financially.
My husband's eldest sister is adopted (as a baby, before the other two children were born). He's unlikely to want to do that with all that she put the family through growing up. She's awesome now, but I've heard horror stories of the early years.
My mom, aunt, and uncle were adopted. My wife and I were going to adopt. We went to a few agencies, a convention, and an agent before we realized that it's nearly impossible for "healthy" babies. Times have changed. We filled out the saddest questionnaire at one agency about what medical conditions we were willing to accept. How can you say you wouldn't take a kid with a heart defect, but then how could you say you would? I didn't think we could do it. Fostering? I didn't want someone with a history of physical and / or sexual abuse. What if they made accusations against me? What if I did lose my temper and even yell at a kid like that? What if they're older and they have a weapon in the house? That's when IVF started looking a lot less crazy.
That's very unfortunate though you assume your kid won't have a heart defect man now I know I have to find a way to make adoption easier is this is the case
Problem with this is you not only assume every kid in foster care is awful but you also assume your potential child won't be a problem fun facto one of magic Johnsons children is adopted but we're just gonna ignore things like that to continue breeding I beg even if adoption was free and just took signing a few papers people would still wouldn't be adopting
you not only assume every kid in foster care is awful
No, I'm assuming that I'm more likely to encounter problems that I am not strong enough to handle with a foster child.
even if adoption was free and just took signing a few papers people would still wouldn't be adopting
Fostering is essentially free, or you even get paid for it, and there are not enough foster parents.
There are plenty of parents who would pay to adopt a "normal healthy" baby.
So never do the action because it comes with risks? OK let me twist that on you I'm not gonna birth a child because it could get cancer or down syndrome (prepares to hear mental gymnastics to justify the action)
Good. Then they’ll probably have their kids when they’ve become successful and settle down instead of in the middle of climbing their career/social latter or during their education.
So when they're 40?
30ish seems ideal to me. By successful I mean stable I guess.
Middle class wealth drains to support the public programs that lower class individuals use, and the middle class then becomes poor. It's through local, state, and federal taxes for public programs, as well as through inflation from deficit spending (spending primarily from public programs (and military)) that the middle class becomes poor.
Upper class wealth drains too to support all of these things, and they are not immune to taxes or inflation either. They're just much better insulated than the middle class family that earns $120k per year and is trying to live in the suburbs, save for college for children, and save for their own retirement as well.
that's my issue with the childfree movement- those are the smart genes, the forward thinking genes, and they're not being passed on. Simple solution would be to get these people to donate sperm and eggs so someone else can raise their clever little children
I don’t think genetics are the biggest issue
If there is any thought. Ignorance of sex and it's consequences are the norm. Abstinence ONLY, and it's not OK to talk about it.
Idk I feel like people are much more open about it nowadays.
People are more open about. But they’re just as ignorant as ever until they get pregnant with an unexpected child. They think it can’t happen to them. As if they’re some kind of genetic anomaly that can’t produce a child because they don’t wanna.
When does this happen?
More often than you’d think. Usually with teenagers.
I suppose. It definitely helps. I think the internet and social media have a lot to do with that. Kinda hard to hide sexuality and ask people to hide it themselves from a billion interconnected people who are sexual beings.
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There's also the thing that to middle class and up children are a financial liability, while to the poor children are assets.
You can't expect them to not have children if they are being paid to have them, and when the alternative is getting less money from working.
Wow I think that you just won today's award for "Most Offensive Generalizations in a Single Comment".
Is he wrong? everyone knows that unprotected sex can lead to pregnancy and yet people do it anyway (and it's disproportionately chavs)
everyone knows that unprotected sex can lead to pregnancy and yet people do it anyway
I think this is a dangerous assumption to make, since sexual literacy is most certainly NOT a given.
Good point actually. How could I forget "how is babby formed"?
Um, no. A lot goes into raising children.
Also, you don't need to have kids. It's ok to not want them and to not have them, regardless of what your parents and grandparents want you to do.
Your brain might tell you "it's time!", but you can still make a conscious decision about whether you do it or not. It's not your job to keep the world populated, and keep in mind that there are 7.5 billion other people out there, so it's not like we're going to die out any time soon. If we do, it'll happen in colossal numbers all at the same time, and no number of offspring will prevent that. In fact, it may even make things worse, say if a superbug that's immune to medical treatments gets loose.
The bottom line is that you do have a choice in the matter. Having kids isn't inevitable.
Western countries already have a negative birth rate. That's the reason for the big push for immigration, there's pensions to be funded but not enough children born to sustain these programs. We need a change in the system and we need to stop relying on debt that we pass down to younger generations.
Pensions look more and more like a Ponzi scheme each day. In their current state they require greater and greater working populations. They will crash when we realise we have run out of our finite space. Hopefully the government will manage to regulate everything properly before that happens.
Hopefully the government will manage to regulate everything properly before that happens.
HAhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... [breathes in]... Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!
Many pension programs are a ponzi scheme. It just worked because the population was multiplying in the past.
Yes!! Having a negative birth rate is a good thing, we could stand to go a bit more in the negative imo. People scream about how it's bad for the economy but there's no way to sustain infinite growth. Why not just fix a shitty system instead?
If it's so easy then why not propose some solutions? People have been trying to find a "fix" to the problems posed by falling birthrates for a long time--there isn't any easy or even clear way to go about it. It's not just about "picking ourselves up and fixing the problem!" The problem is one which doesn't seem to have a realistic solution. Not everything is immediately fixable. Japan has suffered from a negative birthrate for decades--do you think that Japan hasn't been trying to find a solution to the inherent economic problems presented by that? Do you think anyone has the answer to this issue? Do you seriously think you can just "change the whole system" in any way where you can predict a positive outcome rather than a negative one?
Everyone says we need to find a way to be prosperous without promoting constant growth--I challenge people to find out that solution before they advocate just dropping our current system, or rail against the possible solutions we've already identified (such as immigration).
I think the problem is not that we want constant growth, that is LIFE. Life does not limit itself to a little corner of sustainability out of deference to rival species. It grows and reproduces to fill its environment until external forces push back, and an uneasy balance is reached (for a while).
The problem is that humanity has irrationally constrained itself to a shrinking globe. We try to grow, but it comes at one another's and our planet's expense; this is futile because we are all part of the same organism, foolishly cannibalizing itself, amid a universe of plenty. We need to conquer SPACE, then there will finally be enough for everyone, every creature, everywhere, forever.
Except the aliens, because they will be dead, but most of us won't care.
...'Aight, I'm down.
One caveat: the first generation to colonize an asteroid or planet, their lives will really, really suck. The second generation on won't even appreciate them, because the habitat has been up since before they were a twinkle in their mother's gestation tank.
Kind of like the US western expansion of the continent and the first European settlers on the East Coast. Things were hard and kind of awful for the first generationish, then in relatively short periods thriving communities popped up. This story is a constant through history. Colonizing is hard, but humans seem driven to do it anyway.
Although hopefully we've learned our lesson and treat any species/sentient lifeforms/humanoids we may share future environments with much more humanely.
Yeah. How it will go depends less on the technology we use to get there (we could probably send one guy one-way to Mars today), but where humanity is at ethically when we encounter our first aliens. I think with today's military and profit-driven space industry, we'd be like Columbus and the Conquistadors, but if we survive long enough, someday we'll be a united and hopefully kinder civilization. This solar system seems lifeless though, and things like terraforming will take many decades, so I see no reason we should wait around until then. I wish our governments would get it together and at least plant the seeds now.
Conquering space is unrealistic. A much better path is to reduce the rate at which we are using natural resources on earth.
At best, the nearest habitable planet is 12 lightyears away. Let's say we make a spaceship that can travel at 20% of the speed of light (impossibly fast). Fill that ship with colonists and we'll have made it to Earth 2.0 in just... two trillion years.
Alright, so how about terraforming a nearby planet, like Mars or Venus? Venus is a hellish infernal deathwish, so let's go with Mars. Atmosphere is 96% carbon dioxide and only 0.15% oxygen, and only 0.6% the pressure. Now, maybe with some fancy tools we could break up CO2 into breathable oxygen, but that still leaves the problem of pressure. Why is that bad? Because when pressure is low, the boiling point is low. On Mars, water boils at surface temperature even though it's way colder than Earth. So does blood. You need a pressure suit to even walk around, and that's way harder to fix than the atmospheric composition.
Alright, let's ignore those and a whole host of other problems (lack of a magnetosphere, no food or water, awful weather, lack of sunlight meaning solar power is inefficient) and say we are gonna terraform Mars and fix everything! Unfortunately, nobody actually knows how to do this. Hopeful people throw around vague ideas and say it'll take a hundred years. That's already a super long time compared to the accelerating rate of climate change. Some scientists think 1,000 years would be the best case scenario. A conservative estimate says 100,000 years until Mars is livable.
Ok.
So we won't go to another planet.
I'm not a complete Debbie-downer. I actually quite like space travel and think we should invest in it heavily. But to be honest with ourselves, the only viable option to eventually conquer space is to build massive generation ships which function like a miniature planet, with entire ecosystems, atmospheres, gravity, and energy cycles. They could either float around our solar system, occasionally gathering resources from the asteroid belt, or we could send them towards habitable planets in the hopes that they will colonize in the far distant future. These are difficult to achieve but not impossible, and if we really focus like you suggest we might even build a small semi-sustainable satellite in the next hundred years.
Like I said, I love space and I want us to be a space-faring civilization as much as you do. But realistically, the best path for us to take is to focus on environmental sustainability but not neglect space research. Who knows, maybe there will be a breakthrough allowing us to build spaceships that accelerate mid-flight, or even wormholes that get us to distant planets in a matter of seconds. But those things don't exist right now, and throwing money at the problem won't make us a galactic civilization. Throwing money at sustainability, however, will keep humanity around long enough to eventually become that galactic civilization.
These goals can go hand in hand, sure. I am more optimistic about space colonization because I see it going hand-in-hand with terraforming. It's not happening right now, I know, but pouring money into directed research could lead to these kind of self-sustaining habitats you describe for generation ships, and ways of sustaining human life in all kinds of extraterrestrial environments.
In any case, I think not much will happen on either space habitation OR ecological sustainability in the near term. There's no politics or profit in it. Space mining by remote probes though, maybe will happen in our lifetimes.
There's no way to sustain infinite growth.
There absolutely are ways to support infinite growth. The government can enact 'pro-natalist policies' which encourage people to have kids. These are things like less taxes for young parents, straight up cash for every kid the parents have, free public transportation for parents etc.
I think you underestimate just how dangerous a low birth rate is for the economy.
The Earth has a finite amount of space and resources though. How do we have enough space to grow crops, make products, harvest wood, make cloths, etc? Or how do we have enough water to make sure everyone has water to drink? Are we just gonna pave over everything and use every inch of space for agriculture, jobs, and living spaces? That sounds fucking terrible and depressing. And what do we do when we've used up all the space? I'm not just talking about economics, there's tons of things to consider about population growth than just the economy.
Countries which are currently experiencing population decline (ie first world countries in the West, and Japan) are nowhere near using up all of their available resources - that's a problem for overcrowded countries. If the US starts experience consistent population decline like Japan (and the UK, France and some other Western European countries are starting to see), they'll be far more 'terrible and depressing' than what you may imagine.
I'm not saying that we as a species should have unlimited resource usage, but suggesting that population decline in the US is fine and that there's something wrong with 'the system' is incredibly naiive and incorrect.
So you're saying instead of being wary of the existing problems of overpopulation in crowded countries, we should aim to suffer the same fate? I'd take a smaller economy over guaranteed destruction any day.
The only realistic outcomes for western countries is either a slow, manageable decline in population, or a sudden, more damaging decline. I'd far prefer a sufficiently high birth rate to ensure the former.
There's essentially zero risk that western countries will suffer explosive population growth, so I don't think it makes sense worry about that.
There's a huge difference between overpopulation and slow, manageable population growth.
There is hardcore permament damage happening to our planet due to our species. I don’t know by which logic that doesn’t mean it’s overcrowded. As long as we’re using oil, we’re also technically consuming more energy than we can produce, since we’re using a stash that has been acumulating for millions of years.
Pretty sure the government already does this with the child tax credit, tax credit for each child as a dependent, and for lower incomes the earned income tax credit. Not to mention you can write off their medical expenses, get credits for schooling, etc. No, parents already get plenty of tax breaks and why would we give them cash for having kids? Handing out cash to people doesn’t generally work. Why should someone who is less of a burden on society (not having kids) have to pay more than they already do or be penalized for it? They’re using less resources, creating less pollution, and already paying for public schooling, parks, etc. for kids. You also have the assumption that these kids will be productive members of society which isn’t necessarily the case, having more babies isn’t the answer.
Having negative birthrate is a way to hell on earth.
Negative deathrate is way worser.
Then how bout you birth the millions of children you want and ruin your life. I'm not about that shit.
Or we could just leave making babies to the Chinese. I mean fuck, they already make everything else.
They're also in the negative there
And even that's an understatement.
Well they are trying to genetically engineer 200 IQ babies
^ Social Security is a ponzi-scheme
That's the reason for the big push for immigration
which works if the immigrants you're bringing in are actually skilled, but not so much if their plan is just to collect benefits (welfare)
The real proof for me that some people don't have to procreate is that I still remember the world population as 6 Billion, the fact we are up another 1.5B in half my lifetime is crazy, people need to chill out, overpopulation in 3, 2, 1...
As wary as I am about overpopulation, it does seem to be plateauing, and the larger problems seem to be fragile food systems, waste, energy sourcing, antibiotic resistance and garbage, which all stem from a massive population. A lot of people get too bogged down in what the planet can support that they don't consider what the planet should support.
I know we have it hardwired into our brains that we need to procreate to save the species, but the species' greatest danger isn't low birth rates, it's ourselves.
As wary as I am about overpopulation, it does seem to be plateauing
Yep, it levels out around 2050, and will possibly decline then.
Personally I think it will happen sooner than that. Around 2030 is when we're projected to start running out of resources that our agricultural system relies on to produce as much food as it does, plus the rate of loss of farmable land globally is only getting faster as climate change continues. I suspect the current estimates for population growth are too optimistic.
They rely on a global economic system with no major bumps or disruptions. We've had an ample energy supply for the entire time population growth has been parabolic, based off literally millions of years of concentrated photosynthetic energy extracted and burned in the span of a couple centuries. There's good reason to be really worried about the supply of cheap energy, and it's effect as an input on literally everything else in the economy. If you're young and you have decades yet to live in this world, well I think we're in for a bumpy ride. Fuckin boomers threw the party and we'll be picking up the tab.
Good news is the die-offs won't be too bad where I am in North America. The real crises will be in Africa and South Asia, where most of the population growth has been in the past decades. Imagine what happens when two billion people haven't eaten in a week because the trucks stopped running? I wouldn't want to be anywhere near those regions when shit starts getting real (and unfortunately most people there don't really have a choice).
I mostly agree, but I think you're underestimating how bad things could potentially get even in North America. We can't insulate ourselves against a growing world fighting over a shrinking pie. It may take longer to impact us, but it's only a matter of time.
I actually think North America is pretty close to what it could support domestically if it had to. Living standards could go way down but I don't think mass starvation is a genuine concern here. We might get the great depression on steroids. Africa and South Asia will basically be Mad Max.
There's good reason to be really worried about the supply of cheap energy,
The biggest worry I have is that we'll all be unreasonably scared of actually using it. There is no energy shortage. What there is, is an unrealistic fear of nuclear power. We should have replaced all of our coal plants with nuclear plants a long time ago. And yet places like Germany are doing the exact opposite, bringing new coal plants online to make up for decommissioning their reactors. They even have the gall to call themselves champions of clean energy! It's madness.
While I agree that replacing nuclear with coal is ridiculous, they are probably calling themselves champions of clean energy because of massive amounts of wind energy they harvest.
I heard at 11B
It’s plateauing in developed countries. Soon the US’s death rate will exceed the birth rate, but that’s not a worldwide phenomenon. The places with overpopulation issues aren’t really plateauing.
What seems to be plateauing?
The total human population of the world, the growth rate seems to be slowing slightly with all of the decreasing birthrates in industrialized countries.
About five billion is the first I remember.
Fuck I never thought about it like that but you're right.
And if you should decide later that you want kids but want to skip the whole "baby" part, there are a lot of older kids needing foster parents. An ethical choice in many ways: helping kids who need a home + not adding to the population.
Exactly.
Or hey if absolutely can’t quite those hormonal urges to nurture apply to care for one of the hundreds of thousands of foster kids or kids that are currently up for adoption in the US.
I always thought it was weird that people think it's unethical to go to a puppy mill when there are so many perfectly good pets out there, but then they'll turn around and make their own kids rather than go to an orphanage.
I'm not going to say these people are necessarily selfish, because it's definitely an emotional, complicated decision- but it's certainly a selfish decision. And when you're considering caring for the needs of another being for the next 18+ years, it should not be decision made from selfish wants and expectations. A world of wanted, cared for, and nurtured children will create a better future.
Yet childfree people get called selfish all the time. I don't get it.
You mean by their family members who want little ones/grandchildren? Which is exactly my point- it's an inherently self centered desire.
If it's other parents saying it's selfish not to procreate, they're just tying to convince themselves it was a good idea.
I'm not sure what the human equivalent of a puppy mill would be. The Duggars, maybe? But, most human reproduction would be more analogous to the small-scale breeder (show, working, project) than a BYB churning out pups at maximum volume.
If you don't have fertility issues, having your own kid is a lot easier and faster than adopting either privately or through the foster system.
It's common for the children available for adoption through the foster system to have significant mental/emotional/medical issues and/or to come as a sibling group. That does not mean that they ~~are~~ aren't worth a loving home, but a lot of people aren't equipped to deal with that. It would be like going to the shelter to get a dog and being told that you can adopt one dog who will need years of behavioral therapy before it will stop biting you and pissing on your floor or you can adopt these four healthy dogs as long as you adopt all four.
Adoption is great, but it's not as simple as people make it out to be.
Edit: aren't. Yeesh, of all the places to fuck that up.
Your brain might tell you "it's time!"
The only time my brain ever tells me "it's time!" is when it's followed by "for another beer!"
That's the spirit
/r/childfree
For all of the shit they get, it's a good community, and they've got their place to vent. I subscribed for a long time, and I still agree with them.
Visited and Aunt and Uncle back in December. They spent an hour and a half nagging, teasing and trying to guilt trip me about my husband and I choosing to not have kids. They kept telling me I HAVE to have them. And saying shit like, your mom and in laws wants grand kids. They hated me when I told them that my in laws already have grand kids, and they have 4 other kids to give them more, and that I have 2 brothers that can give them some. They told me a lot of people will stop talking to us, I said good riddance and left.
Just tell her you'll adopt
Well, the US has begun to stagnate as our generation has realized they can't support or don't want kids. We are going to see the collapse of Social Security in our life time because there won't be enough people paying into it, to support those that are taking out of it.
There already isn't because none of the millennials have good enough jobs.
This. The job market is stagnant, ergo we're not having children.
there are 7.5 billion other people out there
and growing at the rate of one about new Germany / year. (80 millions)
I got a vasectomy a few months ago at 22 with no children. I’ve had people ask me about kids and if I feel I made the right choice and I have.
Your brain is still developing until your mid 20’s and the last things to develop usually have to do with long term goals, so I’d advise waiting till your mid 20’s unlike me. But I’ve never been one to change my mind. I’d rather be dead than have a little brat running around with my genetics that I’m responsible for. Life is only worth living if you can be happy and children make me miserable. I have the thought of reproducing from time to time yeah, but that’s primal instincts and that will never go away most likely. But the actual thought of having a kid is just awful. I’d rather be dead.
Some people just don’t want kids. Your offspring is your new life, your happiness comes after theirs, or at least it should be that way. I don’t want to give up my happiness because it’s all I’ve got.
If you ever want your own kid look into adoption
Yeah. I really don’t want any but if I do adoption is a fine option. And I can skip the toddler stages if I want lol.
Yeah
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Who says the people reading this thread are the smart or capable ones?
Thanks for your comment. Adoption is better. But you know adopting the right kid is also a challenge.
Then meet them first before you do? Also this assumes that your potential kid won't be a challenge
Things aren't so simple. Personality and other traits need to match. Else there will be issues in the household.
These meet with the kid a bit before you adopt? also if that's your reason to not adopt that's an awful reason especially because it assumes the kid won't be bad
I will adopt if I marry. No way I am having my own kids. Also I will try and help out orphanage if possible. Adoption is complex and needs to be accepted as such. Meeting with the kid multiple times and getting help from others is the way to go. Not an easy thing.
In the past kids were the only security you had that one day someone will work and care for you when you arent able to anymore.
Now we have negative Birth Rates, immigrants to fill the gap and giant debts we are Passing onto our grandchildren which arent even born yet.
I'd advocate for a system where Part of your Pension is determined by how many Children you have and how many of them are paying taxes.
Absolutely. Sometimes my brain tells me it's time to punch people in the face, but fortunately, the process of evolution has graced me with a brain that is capable of overriding its primal urges
7.6 billion now.
When i was a kid there were 3.5 billion.
Doubled population in ONE LIFETIME. Blink of an eye in larger time. That scares the shit out of me. We only need one cyber war that shuts down energy production, food production, water distribution, or transportation....and we are screwed. Especially the USA and Europe and Japan, because our nations are run by computers.
Just a thought. (And i WANT a kid)
On the flip side of this, I really think we should start urging the educated to try and have kids.
Idiocracy is rapidly becoming a documentary.
This, to me, has always been the most frightening part about the world population debate. Those who should not be reproducing continue to do so at alarming rates, while those who theoretically should choose not to.
Many articles out there love to lecture people about the detrimental effects of negative birthrates, while at the same time lecturing people about the importance of having a productive and growing population (which is basically code for needing a working population to continue sustaining taxpayer-funded government programs). It seems like a vicious cycle with no clear solution in sight.
For a lot of people they see having kids as a necessity because of religion. If you don't have kids, you're not doing God's will, which is a big no no. And of course, they don't care about the conditions in which the child will grow up in because God said have babies.
and it's also OK to have only one kid!
I'm trying to convince my fiance of that fact.
Unless if you are in Japan
The people I would make are better than those other 7.5 billion. My genes matter more.
Goddamn it, I really need to get around to having kids soon.
Having kids is not inevitable, because if it were, no one would be infertile, ever, and every woman would just spontaneously get pregnant at a certain age. Since that isn't the case, no one has too have a child.
Yeah no shit, who ever thought otherwise?
You might be surprised how much social pressure there is on people to have kids. I just got engaged, and the questions have already started.
It's literally one of the only things you do need to do. Society is a construction, biology is fundamental. You can choose to sacrifice the latter for the former, but pretending that there isnt a deeply ingrained biological need to procreate is just nonsense.
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Yeah, birth control isn't a thing that was ever invented
If you choose to see sex as just a meaningless act between two people who are curious or bored, then yes birth control cuts my argument off and the knees. But I'd postulate that children give the meaning to sex. Try telling your significant other that his/her body is nothing to you but entertainment.
Could it possibly be that sex...just...feels...good?
If that's truly your view on the matter. That it is meaningless, then I can't argue any further.
I think 95% of the time that people have sex, it's because it feels good, and because they get to make someone else feel good, not because there's an implication that it will result in pregnancy. If you've ever done it before, I hope you had a good time without having to think about what the possible consequences were.
So since I never want to have kids I should just never have sex?
Also... there are more "meanings" to sex than just children. My partner's body is not just entertainment, sex is a bonding experience. We bring each other joy and pleasure, and share an intimate experience. That's extremely meaningful.
I'm so sorry to hear that you don't love the person you're having sex with. I mean, since the whole point is just to breed. That must be devastating for them.
Try telling your significant other that his/her body is nothing to you but entertainment.
Erm.. Pretty sure MrPantzen would find this incredibly hot.
What if her name is Cake?
I guess I walked into that one
This is a huge one. If you've ever read Freakonomics they speculate the crime drop in the 90s was due to Roe V Wade decision. It makes sense, people are allowed to abort unwanted children means 18 years later a lot less kids coming out of childhood raised by parents that didn't want them.
The unfortunate thing is everyone is in it for themselves, for the most part. I see people popping kids out left and right when they struggle daily with even just their own emotions. This isn't mentioning financial struggles, relationship issues, and everything else that can make life so difficult. Often, these people dont grasp the seriousness of having children. You're literally creating another little universe. For god's sake please have yours in order first.
They are now thinking it's probably that combined with making it so kids don't have high lead levels
Poor people, who are more likely to have abortions, are also more likely to live in places with lead
Agreed, either way I am more saying it's probably like 50/50 vs 100 towards abortions
I just was pointing out that the general logic kinda holds still. Other people pointed to general economic trends.
I think autocorrect aborted your post.
The problem with that statistical correlation is that several things have been attributed to that same drop in crime. Switching to unleaded gas is the first one that comes to mind.
The internet becomimg more widespread brought people together as well
This is a huge one. If you've ever read Freakonomics they speculate the crime drop in the 90s was due to Roe V Wade decision. It makes sense, people are allowed to abort unwanted children means 18 years later a lot less kids coming out of childhood raised by parents that didn't want them.
This was a reallllll stretch and was largely discredited. It's like saying "well the rate of firearms purchased from 2008-2014 increased as about as rapidly as states who overturned gay marriage bans, therefore more guns is what caused the legalization of gay marriage". Just because two things happen doesn't mean they're related.
The drop in crime was largely due to better economic conditions and better crime fighting technology and methods, not to mention the fact that it was the first cable news stories that 'crime was out of control', so many politicians took a 'tough on crime' approach to counter these (largely made up) stories.
They may, ironically have a single motivating cause. Obamas 2008 victory allowed dems more political power nationwide and obviously his supreme court picks contributed to ogerfell. Simultaneously, obama mentioning guns was directly shown to spike gun manufacturers stock values and sales.
They may, ironically have a single motivating cause. Obamas 2008 victory allowed dems more political power nationwide and obviously his supreme court picks contributed to ogerfell. Simultaneously, obama mentioning guns was directly shown to spike gun manufacturers stock values and sales.
if i hear one more teen mom saying they only want a baby because then someone will love them, my brain will literally explode. thats not a reason to have a kid at 16 without the kids father involved at all. nevermind the childs feeling or growth potential.
It's also a huge gamble on their part. Just because you birthed it doesn't mean it will love you.
it generally from what i can tell work out well. if you have an unstable life, it can generally lead to children not liking their parents very much and as they grow getting resentful. you might have a toddler that loves you, but from there serious gamble
The unfortunate thing is everyone is in it for themselves, for the most part. I see people popping kids out left and right when they struggle daily with even just their own emotions.
I literally work with two of these people who are in the middle of popping one out right now... on purpose... both of them.
Don't bring kids into the world you don't want.
How do I know if I want them until I have them?
Oh God I've actually met some people with logic like that.
To be fair, no one knows what you're getting yourself into.
you've got to be prepared for the worst when you make that decision to have a child. Talking about financially, emotionally, and mentally.
You can get a rough idea of what its like by taking into account the varied lives of the billions of people who have been born...
Plug to r/antinatalism
I'm just doing the first half of that sentence.
Introducing the Zero-child policy, making the world a better place within a century.
Japan's leading the way in that aspect. They have more old men than young... It's becoming a serious issue there.
Japan also has a pretty restrictive immigration policy. From what I have heard becoming a citizen is near impossible. Anecdotal stuff, not sure how true it is though.
It'll only be an issue for one generation, then it will be great. Also, something tells me Japanese geriatrics might not deal with putting a burdern on their grandchildren the same way western ones would, so it will probably be fine.
I'm pro-abortion.
Not pro-choice, but pro-abortion? As in, mandatory abortions?
No more children ever.
I'd vote for you.
To the 800th trimester?
Or just don't have un-protected sex. No abortions needed then
I mean, just think about the implications.
Wow, the 100ish year plan to achieve world piece. nice
Go to r/natureIsMetal and you'll see that maybe the average happiness of organisms will go down with only the animals alive.
Vhemt.org
Breed Responsibly.
“It’s fine, I had you when I was 17 and look how you turned out. “Yeah lets not go there”
Very valid point.
But now we're getting yelled at for killing toy stores (that were doomed by their LBO) because we're not having kids we can't afford.
At least in the US, maybe having useful sexual education be a requirement for students as well as access to safe abortions would help? Except the same people who say parents should fend for themselves try their hardest to restrict sex ed and abortions. Go figure.
My second high school had an extremely thorough sex ed class that every freshman had to take (mandatory, could not opt out, could not graduate without taking this class), and there were so many pregnant students at that school we literally had a daycare on campus for the babies and special classes for the mothers.
Honestly not having kids period is the greatest environmental contribution someone can do.
Other than dying
As long as you die before having kids
Mass suicide, the environmentally friendly alternative.
Nah, because everyone dies, but not everyone has kids
I should have been more specific. I meant dying right now.
Sounds good
I, actually, have never died
This is why i'd like to adopt someday. Why add another lifetime carbon footprint onto the planet when there are kids who need loving families and are already going to have an impact on the environment. Remove a life's worth of ecological impact plus give a kid the life they deserve? That's a no brainer for me.
This what should happen but people just don't care makes me sick
So in an ideal world no one gives birth ever, they only adopt?
Yeah if we were living by morals
So the end goal is the human race going extinct?
What's wrong with wanting your own baby? Adoption can be pretty risky you have no idea if the mother drank while pregnant or what kind of genetics the baby will have.
What's wrong with wanting your own baby?
Like the op said:
Why add another lifetime carbon footprint onto the planet when there are kids who need loving families and are already going to have an impact on the environment. Remove a life's worth of ecological impact plus give a kid the life they deserve? That's a no brainer for me.
Maybe that its immoral and unethical you even exposed it unconsciously when up you said want
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the child isn't going to be a theoretical physicist.
So it deserves no home and family!
That shouldn't be the takeaway from my post.
Adoption is a huge burden and risk. I don't know if people should adopt at all, and I'm almost certain that they shouldn't adopt if they can have kids. I have great sympathy for the children in that situation, but I don't think adoption is the best thing for them, and I don't think it is for their adoptive parents. Those kids need our charity that will help them grow and prosper according to their abilities, but adopting a child isn't the way to magically fix issues.
What exactly do you think is best for those kids? Because it sounds like you think if you happen to be born to shitty parents, you deserve your lot.
What's also ridiculous about this comment is that he assumes your potential kid will be perfect law I've met more people who are messed up with their biological parents than adopted ones
If you'd do some research you'd find that the odds are widely different.
What exactly do you think is best for those kids?
Professional foster families with good standards and good compensation and bigger homes/dorms with professionals, therapists, teachers.
Because it sounds like you think if you happen to be born to shitty parents, you deserve your lot.
I think it's a great injustice done to those kids, but after reviewing the evidence I think that they are forced to go with what they have, and adoption is bad both for the parents and the children. They absolutely don't deserve it, but life's not fair and we have to go with what we have.
Easy for you to talk from your high horse when your not in the system
^ whataboutism at work
could you please provide some proof to me that being adopted it bad for the children?!
Why? It's not like any proof will change your mind
So, no, you are just talking out of your ass. Just like thinking intelligence is a genetic marker.
Where am I talking out of my ass?
provide sources.
While genes play a role in our mental capacity, it is not a matter of two smart people producing smart babies. It is far more complex than that, and your statements are total bunk, so that section of your spiel is just trash regardless.
But I am extremely curious about why you believe being adopted would be bad for a child.
Where the fuck did i say any of That?
Seriously, bro? Can you not read the comments preceding you jumping into the conversation? You are accusing me of being unable to look at evidence to inform my opinion, but the person you are defending built his statements on the following:
Traits are largely hereditary, so unless you adopt a middle class orphan, you're likely to get a low intelligence child
Traits are not largely hereditary. That is a load of bullshit. Intelligence certainly isn't. Or all intelligent people would have intelligent children and all stupid people would have stupid children. This is not the case.
He also verbatim said:
adoption is bad both for the parents and the children
You claiming that there is proof but it's not worth showing to me sets you up as believing the shit he is spewing. Which is you. Talking out of your asshole.
I never said any of that. Don't put words in my mouth
I can't. There aren't any studies that I know of on the subject. I'm basing my point on other evidence and logic. You can't expect the child to be better off from being pulled from their existing social structure into a home where parent's arent there, they can't bond, they are put off and bitter from not getting the wonderland they wished for and from dealing with the childs issues in school and with the new social circle. Add to that the mental issues, trauma, rebellion, and you're getting a sweet package.
You can read this article
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/31/adoption-why-system-ruining-lives
especially the later parts that go into statistics.
You sound like a but whole those a assumptions are killing me
Regarding point A: That is something that I didn't put much thought into and will look into it more because that is a great point. I'm not really worried about B though because I meant more so looking to adopt say someone who is past being able to have an abortion, but for whatever reason doesn't want/can't properly raise a child that they are going to have. Or perhaps one who is very young (would need to look more into minimum ages and everything that may go into that). About C though: You make it sound like underachievement, criminality etc. is a guaranteed from adoption and that is most certainly untrue. Was there a caveat that I missed, or did you mean something different?
I'm going to respond to both of your posts in one.
You make it sound like underachievement, criminality etc. is a guaranteed from adoption and that is most certainly untrue. Was there a caveat that I missed, or did you mean something different?
Underachievement is almost guaranteed, criminality is an option, far from a guarantee, but more likely than general population. It's hereditary, it runs in the bloodline. Stupid people have stupid children, smart people have smart children. People who delay gratification have children in stable marriages, people who cannot delay gratification have children out of wedlock and without ability to provide. The kids up for adoption weren't born to smart, hard working people who can delay gratification, and the kids will mirror their parents despite your efforts.
There's a great book on the topic, The Blank Slate by Steven Pinker. It doesn't focus on adoption, instead it's about the genetics, how they affect our character and the traits we receive through them. He's a well respected scientist, and that book is one of the life essentials IMO.
There's a big issue - and that's the fact that children that aren't very smart will have issues in resolving issues peacefully, so you're going to have to punish, fight etc. Imagine having a fight and having your now teenage child pull the "you're not my parents" card.
Also if most of the highly educated people shied away from adoption for those reasons, wouldn't that leave mostly people who probably shouldn't be adopting as the only ones left? So the result would be children getting adopted into families that have no business adopting, or being left behind and more/less abandoned. I think developing higher quality foster homes would drastically help with all this, but unfortunately I personally don't think current foster homes in general are adequate for raising successful children with meaningful contributions to society. Which is also another reason why i'm leaning towards adoption. What are your thoughts on foster homes?
Having seen data, and having understood the base principles behind the issues, I don't think people should be adopting kids. (there's more than what I've mentioned already, I can go into it but don't feel like doing it here)
I don't know much about creating a good environment for parentless kids, but I think that a combination of professional foster families that have high requirements, oversight and compensation, paired with bigger, dorm style care centers that have therapists, mentors, teachers available would work well and provide a good path to high functioning adulthood for most dependents.
You have the exact same chance of birthing an impaired/genetically "inferior" baby. Unless you do genetic testing on yourself and your partner you have no way of knowing what recessive genes you have that you could pass to your baby. Both parents could be smart, successful, and attractive, but carry the same recessive gene for something horrible and BOOM - fucked up baby.
People here just want to make adoption seem bad and pro creating like it's the best thing
That's just not what I'm talking about. Yes, recessive genes exist and are a problem, but I'm not focusing on them. I'm focusing on genes that affect intelligence, character traits, illnesses etc. Those traits are highly hereditary and that's a problem, because you're likely adopting those genes, and not the hard working genius ones. It's not hard to find, this shit is on wikipedia.
https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-paradox-of-adoption/
You know you can meet the adopted kid before you adopt them right? Also what a stupid comment your assuming that their potential child won't be screwed up just anecdotal evidence but the top person at my school is adopted
Also if most of the highly educated people shied away from adoption for those reasons, wouldn't that leave mostly people who probably shouldn't be adopting as the only ones left? So the result would be children getting adopted into families that have no business adopting, or being left behind and more/less abandoned. I think developing higher quality foster homes would drastically help with all this, but unfortunately I personally don't think current foster homes in general are adequate for raising successful children with meaningful contributions to society. Which is also another reason why i'm leaning towards adoption. What are your thoughts on foster homes?
Because you want to carry on your own family perhaps?
Hear yourself I "want" it's I'm moral dude you do it because you frankly don't care about the logistics of it
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I'm all for killing animals though I have been called a psychopath on several occasions so take that with a grain of salt
Yeah. Let's end this whole experiment. /s
Done.
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You shut your mouth. Having a cute little doggo or kitty is no where the same as kids.
First, doggos are cute.
Don't need a second.
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lol bruv, its ok. don't get a pet then. The carbon footprint of a dog is tiny compared to a human living 80+ years. If you're truly worried about that, just go live in the wild and hunt your own food, and live off the land.
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A dog footprint is still way smaller. They don’t need driving to/from work every day, they usually don’t need clothes, they don’t need almost any commodities besides some toys and a crate. The only thing they need is food, which is often made from leftovers of the food industry, the offal, which is often healthier than meat, but humans don’t seem to like it anymore.
Of course it’s not zero, but it’s magnitudes lower than a human footprint
In the immortal words of Michael Jackson- if you can't feed your baby, then don't have a baby.
This. I have kids & recently my SO found out she was pregnant. We. Can't. afford. Another. Rather than bringing a life into a world that would significantly reduce the quality of life for all parties involved, we decided to terminate the pregnancy very early on. It was a difficult decision, that we could to share with literally no one. If word got out, we'd be considered pariahs for life, & would lose the support we have. Both of our families are deeply religious, and we are severe agnostics. While we're not perfect parents, we maintain a loving household & are attentative to our current kids. Bringing another life into the world, while we're saddled with student loan debt, long working hours & an aging, and already maxed out extended family support system would be an irresponsible option at this point. It sucked, but I'm glad the option was there. My most ethical next move is a vasectomy.
For what it’s worth, this internet stranger thinks you made the right decision, but it sounds like you already know that.
Adoption wasn’t an option?
The best way to make the world a better place.
My family history is terrible, I never thought of myself as a 'Dad' or capable of raising a good person. So as much as I am a ~~fully~~ reasonably functioning adult that does have means to raise kids, my wife and I decided that wasn't for us. I got snipped years ago and never looked back.
Turns out it was for the best, my wife developed a relatively rare, painful nerve disorder that has left her disabled adjacent and she physically wouldn't be able to raise a kid. We remark how lucky it was for us to not have had an 'oops' pregnancy earlier in our relationship.
edit: My original point kind of got lost there. I was intending to stress that financial reasons aren't the only good reasons to not have children.
Ugh my brother encourages real bad behaviour from his kids. They’re violent and whiney. We’re always scolding him for it but he doesn’t listen. I mean, my nephew bit another kid, and my brother was cool with that! We were all so embarrassed. What the fuck.
Yes. I’m a babysitter for wealthy families and money doesn’t even fix issues.
The problem is, everyone thinks that they are the exception and no one else knows how to raise their kids.
I wish people would fucking think before shitting out kids because "lol I wanna be a mommy"
Bitch can you feed them? Clothe them? What about taking an active role in raising them? Ready to not have a social life? Ready to lose sleep, your figure, relationships and money? Are you ready for that baby you absolutely had to have to be potentially severely disabled and dependent on you for its entire life?
If you answer any of those questions with, "I don't know but we'll figure it out," congratulations you're probably gonna be one of those parents everyone fucking hates
There is a women at my sons school who is 30 and just gave birth to her 2nd set of twins. She now has 7 children the oldest 5 being in primary school. Her partner is a similar age and has 2 kids from a previous relationship and is father to her 7 so he has 9 kids in total.
Neither of them currently or have ever worked. They have had 9 children between them without any ability to pay for them. They rely fully on benefits.
Jesus fucking Christ, 9 goddamn kids by age 30?!
Of course they rely fully on benefits because to idiots like this they see benefits as some sort of reward for their inability to close their legs
Yep! With that many kids I would undoubtably lose my mind. 2 is more than enough for me.
I can understand accidents etc and having 1 or of course if one or both had been working and lost their job but they have willingly had child after child knowing that other people are working hard to pay for them.
And it doesn't help the stigma of "welfare queens"
Not everyone on welfare is gaming the system nor wants to remain on it, but people like the ones who shit out kid after kid after kid because they know they'll get the money, they ruin it for everyone who legit needs it
Exactly. I worry about what is going to happen to the children when they get older. Are they going to end up on benefits like the parents.
Probably
It's a problem that's passed down through generations. Add willful ignorance, lack of education and laziness and it's all but assured she's raising the next generation of leeches
ummm where do you live, INDIA!?!?!
Just the good old UK
and if i cant afford it, then i guess im gonna still it
If you honestly care about the world, probably the best thing you can do for it right now is not have kids. But then you get in a situation where the most environmentally conscious and selfless people have the fewest children and that's not good either. I don't think it's about "raising them properly", I think raising has less to do long term than genetics.
Pretty sure those things are 50/50 nature vs nurture. Everything counts.
I can't give you an easy ratio like 50/50 but I can tell you that people are going to systematically overestimate parenting for solidly scientific reasons, and underestimate peers and genetics.
Personally I think it's insanely easy for parents to change children, but mainly in the short term. Like malleable plastic, they're going to bounce back. I think that parenting matters long term on the extremes- if you whip your kids with extension chords because they forgot to say 'excuse me'. But I think that most moderate, conventional parenting styles are given WAY too much weight. You'll see a mother feeding her three year old a spoonful of milkshake at McDonald's and think "what an awful parent, she should never be allowed to have children"- that kind of shit. I think the biggest role parenting plays is in selecting the stuff that actually does matter, what the other half of the genes will be and who can be their closest peers.
The three year old is statistically going to grow up to be overweight and have a ton of health issues derived from it, so I don't know how can you say it's irrelevant. Maybe not as relevant as the whipping, for sure, but shit sticks with the kids. And malleable plastic keeps its shape, it's the whole reason we use plastic for things. People just love getting told "it's not your fault if your kids turn out awful!".
The three year old is statistically going to grow up to be overweight and have a ton of health issues derived from it
oh yeah? Statistically huh?
That's another thing that makes me think how much we overestimate parenting. It's SO easy to judge other parents. Even if it was 50/50, it shouldn't be that easy. Like my McDonald's example, you have no idea what that family is like. Do they do this often? Is the kid otherwise healthy? Is the household big on sports? I mean, there's NO WAY you can know the kid's going to have "a ton of health issues" because you see a three year old at a McDonald's. But you and a lot of other people are going to be quick to judge "what a bad parent" because you overestimate how big a deal parenting is.
Just put it in perspective. You think it's 50/50 nature/nurture. Do you judge a person's genetics as quickly as you do their parenting? You see a family at McDonald's, you see a dad snap at a son, you see a kid not do his homework, you see a kid acing a test, you see a kid at a soccer game and a kid stuck inside on xbox, do you say half the time 'there's parenting for you' and the other half 'there's genetics for you'. I doubt it. I bet you'd be like most people and each time you see something you like or don't like, you credit the parents for their parenting.
Doesn't that kind of tip you off? Count how many times you see parenting criticized or praised vs how many times you see genes and peer groups criticized or praised. That's a hint!!!
But genes, praised or criticized, cannot be changed. Parenting can be. It's like going out in the middle of a storm and blaming the rain, and not your own lack of foresight for forgetting an umbrella.
Your average American kid is already growing up to be overweight. McDonalds shakes at 3yo just increase already high chances. And I didn't say the kid will certainly have issues, just that odds are it'll happen. You're putting words in my mouth. And genes don't make you fat, behavior does.
And genetics don't influence behavior? There is a large and once again underestimated genetic component in obesity. 77 percent of the variation between thinner and fatter kids could be attributed to genetic differences.
and not your own lack of foresight for forgetting an umbrella.
and what are genetics but foresight? You select who you breed with don't you? Little Johnny is failing his math. It's parent teacher time again. Half the time, does teacher say little Johnny needs to be made to practice math half an hour a day and half the time teacher says Johnny's mom should have married someone who did better in school? No, you never hear that kind of shit. And what is it but a lack of foresight like neglecting an umbrella.
Doesn't the fact that you never hear that kind of shit tip you off that maybe we're underestimating something?
If nature is 50%, when do you ever hear anybody say anything about it? There's a billion books on how to raise a kid and zero on how to pick a partner with good genes. 50/50 huh?
All the "weight is genetics" bullshit articles are cashing on the fact that people don't like to get told their issues are their fault and their responsibility to fix. So i can't blame you for finding them appealing.
It's like going out in the middle of a storm and blaming the rain, and not your own lack of foresight for forgetting an umbrella.
So foresight is important to consider when you might get rained on but not when you might have a kid. k
All the "weight is genetics" bullshit articles are cashing on the fact that people don't like to get told their issues are their fault and their responsibility to fix. So i can't blame you for finding them appealing.
????? I link you science. You think I'm linking you feels. I get it. You're just a random fatpeoplehate loser.
aaaaaaaaaannd block
Beats being the pro eugenics guy.
Adopt.
The kids that need a home the most are also the ones with most issues, it's much harder to tell someone to be a good parent to an adopted child vs being a good parent to their own kid. There's been adoptions in my family, and the biological families they come from would give any child major issues.
That's why they need good parents. The alternative is they're trapped on the foster care system until they turn 18.
But if you want to have a good time as a parent it's so much easier if you adopt. You know the kid will be roughly as smart as you IQ is 50-80% genetic and they are still figuring out how genetic personality is.
You know it's mother didn't drink or do drugs while pregnant and what kind of women she is. You are really rolling the dice when you adopt
Adopt!
Idiocracy is slowly happening because responsible people are having fewer kids (or no kids at all) while not-so-responsible people are having lots of kids.
And/or adopt instead!
I agree, but take this with a grain of salt. The only people who take this advice seriously are educated people from developed countries, who are ironically the ones whose children could make the world a better place. We shouldn't discourage them from having children. Also, you should say this to people from countries with very high birth rates and not from countries where there's already a problem with falling birth rates and a fast aging population.
Also a lot of people take this advice way too far. So many people think "ready to have a kid" means own a home, $80k+ household income, two paid off cars, finished all education.
Kids generally aren't as expensive as some people make them out to be. Yes they need food and shelter and a car seat and a stroller and toys. But they don't need the best of everything, and so much of that starting-out equipment is usually given to you or handed down.
By all means don't have kids if you don't want to or don't feel like you're ready, but it's also totally possible to raise a kid and give them a great life if you have some debt, aren't making an incredible salary, etc. You aren't a bad person for choosing to have a kid with a 35k household income, your kid will still eat, just be aware that you'll have to budget super carefully.
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I don't think I'll be comfortable having children until I own a home outright and have a few rental/investment properties bringing in ~$6-10k/month profit.
And, like...that's fine. Just know that you're being very cautious and it absolutely doesn't make someone an irresponsible drag on society if they want to have kids without a safety net that big.
What in the fuck do you do in your mid-20s that you're planning to own a home outright and own several rental/investment properties within the next 4-10 years?
Disagree. My parents thought it was cool to have kids on 35k a year and now I get to see every one of my peers who actually have financial support from family surpass me at nearly every milestone.
deciding to have a kid on a 35k household income is a really fucking stupid decision, full stop
It depends on your living situation. $35k in a big city isn't enough to support one person living alone. $35k in rural North Carolina can definitely provide for 3 people. Not a luxurious lifestyle but not total poverty.
We're all just one medical emergency away from losing it all
I mean yes. Times are tough. And yeah by having a kid you're increasing your financial volatility. But I really don't think it's fair to point at people below an income level and say "you aren't allowed to experience having a family"
Definitely see your point and I'm in no way saying that poor people shouldn't be allowed to have kids. What I'm saying is that it's probably not a good idea to have kids if you're living on an income where one missed paycheck could fuck you up.
Dude, no. This is a horrible idea from nearly every single angle.
Falling birth rates is not a "problem", it's a good thing. Sure, it creates some economic problems due to the current model we have, but that model relies upon growing the population. That is an unrealistic basis for a model, we can't grow the population forever. We need to rework the system.
We already have too many people that are causing problems for the planet. Even though western countries have a falling birth rate, we could still do with having less.
Not really. [The global 10% richest (that's almost anyone reading this thread) are responsible for half of the world's CO2 emissions.](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/gA36W1i6SbXoeqVRFghgWfehkys=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/9787801/oxfam_extreme_carbon_inequality_021215.jpg).
Ah, the white man’s burden.
Somewhat, unironically. To speak in some specific terms, only those privileged enough to have education and be aware of environmental impacts forgo reproduction in some environmental and humanity based altruism. Largely occurs in western societies. and specifically white populations which have an under replacement birthrate overall. Compare this to poor 3rd world countries or nonwhite populations in the western world.
That is mathematically false. The global 10% richest (that's almost anyone reading this thread) [are responsible for half of the world's CO2 emissions](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/gA36W1i6SbXoeqVRFghgWfehkys=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/9787801/oxfam_extreme_carbon_inequality_021215.jpg).
“If you can’t feed your baby, then don’t have a baby.”
This is definitely mine. I was just seeing how far I had to scroll to see it. Personally, I am not having children because it’s a scary world we live in AND my sister was born with a genetic disorder which requires her to have life-long care. She cannot care for herself, no matter how old she is my parents will always have a child living in their home, and I will be responsible for her when they are gone or are no longer able to care for her. I do not want to put my possible children at risk for being born with that, or any, disorder. It’s just better for me not to reproduce, as much as I love children. The good news is, my husband is totally on board, and we plan to make the most of this childfree lifestyle. Some people may say I’m selfish, but I call it being responsible.
Adopt
I’m totally open to that (years and years down the road), but my husband really does not want to raise children. I’m cool with that. We have plenty of nieces and nephews to enjoy.
Sounds cool
This! I feel like an asshole but when I see young non educated women who I know don't make much money on 4 of 5 kids it really bugs me!
Say that to child benefits.
The tax benefits of having a child are FAR, FAR outweighed by the cost of having a child. Like not even in the same galaxy.
I get $1,000 per year tax credit for each kid and that's it. I think I spend around $17k a year just on daycare. Then there's food, clothing, toys, and health insurance.
That's why I never plan on having children. Might get my alloys resprayed though.
I don't blame you man. I love my kids but sometimes I think it'd be fun to be able to buy all sorts of fun stuff for myself.
It is. I spend 5k on camera equipment last week while my brother is constantly complaining about his kids. No offence but to me it just looks boring and like a lot of work for very little payoff. But you sound like a good parent so power to you, I know how bad I'd be.
I don’t think child benefits make people have kids.
You'd be surprised.
This. I’m 31 with no children. I just now started the career that I’m meant to be doing. My parents have been asking for years. They tell me “your generation just doesn’t understand.”
I understand that I need to be in a position to provide. I have massive student debt. I need to be stable and not worried about making enough to cover necessities. Their generation doesn’t understand that we now have a pretty fucked situation for the younger generation. If I can’t do well enough for my children to avoid being screwed by it- then I don’t think I should be having children.
Or don't bring kids into the world in general. We are greatly exceeding healthy population. Our pollution, poverty, and unemployment rates will greatly decrease if population decreases. As we shift towards automation unemployment is only going to get worse. We are looking at a great food shortage very soon as well. The future is looking pretty bleak for anyone being born right now. You should consider your potential child's future more than your potential happiness for having a child. Let's keep our numbers healthy instead of just existing.
Corollary: donate to planned parenthood. Free birth control is an incredible bang for your buck in terms of fighting most of our planets problems (economic inequality, climate change, overcrowding, it his em all!).
And when you do bring kids in the world, please don't name them Aiden.
jayden, braden, hayden, grayden, and cayden are all ok tho
To piggy back on this...don't try for more kids if you don't even enjoy the ones you have
Yuuuup. I get people furious that I'm being selfish not having kids, but I can't think of anything more selfish than having kids I don't want. Like... Creating a human being is NOT something you should do just for kicks. And definitely not because a random person told you you should.
True, but if you do want kids don't wait too long waiting for everything to be perfect. I know a lot of people going through some real regret because they wanted to wait until every single financial goal was met before thinking about kids, but by that time they're in their late thirties or early forties.
I encountered this at a get-together at our daycare a while ago. Our kids were 3 and 5 at the time, and my wife and I are in our early 30s. A lot of the parents there were already in their 40s with kids the same age as us.
On the one hand, our financial situation wasn't totally stable when we had kids. We don't own a home and we're still working on some student loan debt (luckily almost done with that). Having to pay for daycare has made it hard. On the other hand, we'll still be in our 40s when they graduate high school. Our financial stuff will work out over time, and we get more quality time with our kids and (hopefully) grandkids.
EDIT: To the downvoters - I'm not trying to say that I'm so much better than everyone for having my kids a little earlier than average. People make different choices. They have advantages and disadvantages. I was just relaying my experience and saying why I'm glad I had kids early. But wanting to wait and having your kids later so you can have a more stable situation is perfectly valid.
Do you seriously think they're so much worse off than you because they waited a few years longer than you did? Get a grip
No, I don't think that, I'm just happy to be a relative young parent myself. I don't blame anyone for waiting and I know there are benefits to that as well. People are misreading my post.
Don't bring kids into the world ~~that you can't raise properly.~~
/r/childfree
Seriously. Nothing pisses me off more than seeing people who can barely afford to provide for themselves having kids, like you're literally ruining that childs life just because you're a fucking horny retard. This is also part of the reason I like to blame a lot of people in 3rd world countries for having kids. Whenever someone tells me to be more grateful for stuff because "what about the starving kids in africa", I say those kids shouldn't even exist in the first place. You should NOT be having kids if you don't even have access to a fucking toilet. Humans and our need for sex truly baffles me sometimes.
It sounds like you don't understand humans and nature. Everything that prevents us from being able to "afford" kids is the unnatural part.
What's hard to understand about poor people being too horny to think about anything other than themselves?
Why should only rich people be able to pro-create? You're confusing being horny with what is natural for all life.
Where did I say only rich people should be able to pro-create? I said poor people who can barely afford to provide for themselves shouldn't be able to pro-create.
In what dictatorship would you prefer this take place in?
Sigh. That really isn’t my point but if a dictatorship is what it takes to prevent more innocent children from being born into their own hell where they starve and are forced to eat garbage, all due to the selfishness of poor horny pieces of shit, I’m all for one.
Or people could just wear a condom.
It is your point if you're saying "poor people who can barely afford to provide for themselves shouldn't be able to pro-create".
If all you got from my comment was “dictatorship” I don’t know what else to say other than you lack critical thinking skills
What else should I get from a comment that uses the words "shouldn't be able to"? Did you mean that it's not responsible? Because those are two very different things.
You know what I meant, now you’re just picking at straws. Your initial argument was that “I said only rich people should be able to pro-create” and I didn’t say that anywhere in my comment. Nowhere did I mention rich people.
They shouldn’t be able to BECAUSE it’s not responsible. If all it takes is a dictatorship to enforce laws that prevent poor people, who can barely afford to put food on the table for themselves, from bringing another human being into sharing their suffering, then I’m all for one. But that’s not the case. “Child bearing laws” aren’t dictatorship exclusive.
Also you seem to have the misconception that dictatorship = bad, when there are countless examples all throughout history of benevolent dictators.
I honestly think you just lack reading comprehension skills
You said that poor people shouldn't be able to procreate. And if you just meant that they shouldn't do it, you're still suggesting that only people of wealth should have kids. Whether that means rich or middle class it still suggests a litmus test for being able to have kids. People are meant to procreate. It's only the confines of our economy that dictate what is appropriate. If you lived in a small village and we all shared the bounty of our farming and hunting, no one would suggest that anyone shouldn't have kids. But we've created road blocks and people now calling other people irresponsible.
What the fuck are you talking about? You don’t have to have an insane amount of wealth to have kids, no where did I even fucking imply that? This is what I’m talking about when I say reading comprehension skills.
You can be not so wealthy and still afford to have kids, by having a steady job or source of income.
Like I think this whole argument is just you twisting my words to support your own fallacious argument. For the millionth time, Im not saying only rich people, or people of wealth should have kids. I’m saying only people who can’t afford to put food on the table for themselves shouldn’t be able to have kids.
Next, people aren’t “meant” to procreate. If there was a population problem and we were a dying species, yes, the purpose of the average human being would be to procreate, but that is not the case in this day and age. There are 7 billion human beings on earth and the number is finally starting to slow down. People are not meant to procreate anymore by any means, saying human beings were put on the earth for the sole purpose of fucking and having kids is ignorant. You’re probably one of those people that tells other people they should be having kids aren’t you?
Then you bring up the small village scenario and again, this brings my main point that you seem to misunderstand due to your lack of reading comprehension skills, IF YOU CAN AFFORD TO PUT FOOD ON YOUR TABLE, and can provide a more than sufficient amount of food and shelter for a child, then by all means have kids. If you’re not eating cookie shaped dirt, have as many kids as you can afford to care for.
Finally, I agree that there are roadblocks preventing some people from reaching that state of being financially well off enough to have a child, but that’s no excuse to have one. I understand there are people in debt, specifically college students just graduating paying off student loans. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be able to have sex, I’m saying they should be more cautious and safe.
Any amount of money you define is a roadblock to someone else having kids. There are very few people who can't put ANY food on their own plate and I'd imagine that very few of them are having kids. But how much it costs to have kids is relative. Funny that you think I'm putting words in your mouth yet you say " You’re probably one of those people that tells other people they should be having kids aren’t you?"
No. I think having kids is natural but no one should do it unless they want to. The problem is that many people do want to. Whether they can "afford" to or not. I think this whole conversation is weird with so many people on Reddit supporting your opinion when it's really the opinion of the "haves" to create the roadblocks for the "have nots" not to have the ability to have kids.
Let me ask the question this way. Do you support Universal Healthcare? What about Universal Basic Income? Or even just Welfare? Do you support such systems? Because they are created so that no one falls below the poverty level. So by your definition, everyone should be able to have kids because it should be enough to put food on their table.
BTW - I work at a charity that works in the projects. So I'm well aware of how people live with no jobs and only govt income. They don't live well off but all the kids have food. And the reason these people are still having more kids (usually at the age of 15-16) is because that's what their parents did and the ability to move upward doesn't exist in their world. They think that they'll always be poor. Which is tough to tell every person living in the projects that they can't have kids. Someone like me did wait to have kids. Because I knew I was going to make more money. Thay don't think that's their future.
Just assume it's a poor guy
I've never heard of "Sigh" but remind me not to visit. :)
I can understand your point in 1st world, but you really don’t understand the situation in third world. The third world situation is like most of the world had it before 1900. Children are your retirement plan and if you don’t have at least few of them surviving into your old age, you’re fucked.
I see your point, I still think it’s extremely selfish. It just becomes a never ending cycle of despair and a penurious living
I mean, it isn’t great, but that’s the rationale and it’s quite reasonable from their point of view. Also, that’s exactly what the rest of the world did on a path to prosperity.
On top of that, when brains switch to survival mode, they make us reproduce. It’s irrational, but that’s how evolution shaped our brain.
I was having an abortion discussion with my sister one time, and an analogy she used was, "Sometimes people start mixing a cake and then they realize they can't afford the rest of the ingredients to finish making the cake." I responded, "Then don't start mixing the cake??????" and she said that was incredibly naive.
Like, if you're not prepared to have kids, don't have kids????
Your sister obviously does not understand the importance of mise en place
Don't bring kids into the world
Just this.
If you really love your children, don't expose them to suffering.
Life is suffering.
Yup. Which is why I don't plan to reproduce.
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Wish I had never been born.
And if we live in a universe where vaguely conscious minded souls exist prior to bodily instantiation, then I wish that vague consciousness that came to be me had never been.
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If having a kid means you are going to go into poverty, then you shouldn't have a kid.
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....I would argue being on medicaid and welfare puts you pretty heavily in the "poverty" column.
Especially if you're both working and still require welfare?
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Fuck man I don't know. I'm not an economist. I just know I've never seen a family on welfare and medicaid and gone "man they're doing pretty good for themselves"
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Bro I'm just some guy on the internet. I don't make rules for what society considers "well off".
All I'm sayin is I think your below the poverty line if you're on welfare. I'm not looking to argue what is and is not "poor" with some random keyboard warrior.
Do you not need to be earning below the poverty line to qualify for welfare?
I would not be ok with that. If you need Medicaid and welfare, then you are definitely living in poverty.
Uh, what? That is poverty
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Do you really think the poverty line is an accurate figure and depiction of poverty or are you jusy being intentionally obtuse? This line is essentially made up(it is a threshhold that is set at three times the cost of a minimum food diet in 1963 ) and applies to people in high and low cost of living areas with no adjustments
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or we could google it!
The 2018 federal poverty level (FPL) income numbers below are used to calculate eligibility for Medicaid and the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP). 2017 numbers are slightly lower, and are used to calculate savings on Marketplace insurance plans for 2018.
$12,140 for individuals
$16,460 for a family of 2
$20,780 for a family of 3
$25,100 for a family of 4
$29,420 for a family of 5
$33,740 for a family of 6
$38,060 for a family of 7
$42,380 for a family of 8
at any of these levels, you should probably not have kids.
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thats super sad, right?
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it is
There's lots of different absolute and relative measures of poverty used across the world. My question is what are you trying to say with your original point? If someone is struggling yhey should wait to have kids until they're more stable- I dont see how this is an argument
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Donyou really think a single integer will function as a definition of poverty? Like I said, there's various methods to defining this. Median family income in the US is 59k as of 2016. A 30k income (before taxes) and a modest mortage of 1000 a month, before food, utilities, and anything else doesn't leave a lot left over, nor buffer for emergencies. You seem to think its totally ethical to crank out kids as long as you have shelter and food regatdless of any long term stability or ability to assist their children financially in life- and sorry dude but most people disagree with that assertion
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Then I agree. If you can't come up with 400$ in an emergency situation, you should not have kids.
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That's cool where did you move from?
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Yeah I mean I personally don't want to pay for someone who doesn't work all the expenses for the 4+ kids they chose to have. Fuck that- you should be responsible for your own life. We have a culture of personal responsibility and taking care of your own vs. having what you work for forcibly taken and given to others because they want to breed.
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I'm fine with charity doing this of course. I just would not be down with forced contributions to it. The mormons are just insane, and I know the only value of women in their eyes are to be human broodmares so this doesn't surprise me.
Lol seconded. Mostly those definitions are from relatively rich people and they don't actually understand which corners can be cut - kids need adequate food, shelter, clothes, and a whole lot of love and support. Maybe budget in some tutoring or something if your in a not great school district since education is increasingly important, but you don't need to spend thousands on summer camps and extra curricular activities to raise a child. Those are nice extras, but they won't replace love and emotional support :(
the average cost of center-based daycare in the united states is $11,666 per year (for one kid). if a third of your income goes to paying daycare costs, a whole lot of love and support isnt going to pay the mortgage/rent, transit costs, utility bills, or food costs
Yeah these threads are always super creepy, it’s usually blatantly middle class people essentially saying “don’t have kids if you’re not middle class”
Almost as bad as when a eugenics thread pops up, christ...
I'm poor as shit. My friends are poor as shit. All of us agree that, while you don't need to be middle class, you shouldn't have kids if you can't afford it. I can understand someone with an oops baby that can't bring themselves to have an abortion, but I see people getting pregnant multiple times and then cry and whine about how they can't pay their bills or afford food or anything. There's a grey area.
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I don’t plan to have kids, but I’m gladly paying for primary till college education of other kids. You know why? Because I’m a member of a fucking society and I like my society to feel safe. I don’t have to avoid any areas in the night if I walk the capital of my country in the night and I love it. It’s an investment in my safety and well-being.
This should be higher. The world is full. Quit having children.
Don’t bring kids into the world at all. Only thing we dont need to this world more, is people.
Wait, I gotta raise one of my worlds? Wtf
Had my first kid at 29. Still not sure I can raise him properly.
but "raise properly" is very subjective
While I agree, there's plenty of amazing humans that had shitty parents
This. I can't upvote this enough.
Yes, PLEASE!!!
Where possible, don't drive. Walk, bike, take public transit, or carpool.
This won't be possible for everyone, but there are a lot of people who don't really need to drive who do it anyway. Besides the obvious impact individual drivers have on the environment and traffic, walking/biking/public transit is better for building a stronger sense of community, reducing feelings of isolation, and really absorbing and learning about your surroundings. When you just quickly drive by, you miss so much and interact with fewer people.
I wish those were options in my country. In a place where crime is so prevalent and you hear stories about people being robbed, kidnapped and killed literally every day, if you have a car, it's 1000x safer to use it rather than public transport, walking or biking.
Yes, certainly there are some areas where people can't do that safely. In most major US cities, though, I wish people would consider it.
I'd consider it but my work + commute time would go from 9 hours to 14 hours. Even some major metro areas in the US still have shit transit.
I'm gonna bike more in the summer tho so I'll offset some of my driving :)
That’s Ms. Chanandler Bong.
Sounds like Brasil
Central America, actually
My co-workers see me like a freak when I say I'm biking instead of driving to go to work. I am much happier this way.
Same deal with the "friends thinking I'm a bit nuts for not driving" thing. Unfortunately, my job takes a 20min drive, but I prefer walking 80% of the time. I like to live near the center of the city, so I can walk to almost anything I need. It's more expensive, necessitates roommates, and the apartments are small, but it's a fucking miracle for my mental state. The thought of living in a quiet neighborhood alone makes me anxious.
I spend less time driving (stressful), get some regular exercise, and actually cohabitate with my community. I'm not trekking from my crypt to "visit," I'm just always there. The busyness of it all is remarkably calming to me. Plus, a lot of the city's best bars, restaurants, cafes, landmarks, parks, festivals, and events are comfortably accessible to me. It's like fucking Disney World. How can you not love that?
This. I live right in a city centre, 20min walk to 3 major supermarkets and 30min walk to my work. There is barely any places I can’t get by walking, and if I can’t there are two major train stations within a 5-10min walk.
Yet my family is constantly having a go at me for not driving or learning to drive. Honestly I don’t need to at this point in my life, and I have much more important things to save for, but they still won’t regard me as successful until I have a licence and a expensive car
I wish I could still bike to work! I work on a highway, so it isn't safe. Back when I could, though, it was great having the built-in exercise every day.
I'm lucky enough to live near a pretty green place with lots of forests on my way to work, exercising while enjoying the scenery at the same time is a soothing experience.
Depending on the highway structure/traffic, it could actually be safer than riding in the city. I feel much safer on a wide highway shoulder than I do in town. Less random behavior from drivers, right turns cutting you off, etc. It's a trade-off though, as if there's an accident it's now at high-speed rather than say 20mph.
Its the same for me. I live in a relatively small town where everyone just drives even the most minuscule distances, so when I get my bike out everyone looks at me like I'm some kind of alien species.
Dang, I work as a server, my co-worker called for a pizza for pickup, & she drove to the pizza store. I can see the store from the restaurant's window-.-
Not to mention the health benefits of walking and biking! Even walking to a bus station is more exercise than walking to your car in the garage.
this should be higher. billions of cars all over the planet are killing us yet people want to solely blame plastic and cow farts.
Don’t underestimate the impact of industrialised farming of sea life and land food. It’s far worse than people realise, on both an environmental and psychic level.
I see a lot more people underestimating the effects of transportation than the effects of industrial farming. Industrial farming has earned a spot as a hot-button issue that everyone's up in arms about, but most of those progressive-minded people still drive everywhere without batting an eyelash. I don't get it.
upvote. i don’t. but i just really feel cars should take a lot of the blame. i garden and hunt and try to cut down on corporate consumption.
Not just community, but your own mental health. Fighting commute traffic is stressful and expensive.
Taking either carpool or train, and not having to drive, makes a surprisingly big difference.
Find out what transport options are available in your area. Things like commercial rail are easy to overlook, and can be quite cheap.
It's also great for your health - biking and walking.
I play a very physically involved musical instrument (bagpipes), and for two years I've had these massive headaches whenever I played the instrument. This all started around the time I had a job which forced me to work 16 hour days for 4 months straight. I couldn't exercise or really do anything other than sit at a desk and be yelled at.
Recently, I started walking to places as much as I can, and when I'm pressed for time, I take the bike out to get there. In just two and a half weeks, my headaches are totally gone when I play, and each day is just easier to get through. I feel more mentally sharp, I don't feel like I'm in an exhausted haze all the time, and I'm finally losing the weight I put on from that job.
So true. I drive to work, but outside of that I avoid it if I can. I love walking, I notice so much cool stuff that I would never notice driving. And me and my bf love taking public transit around our city, or even to the next towns over to hang out. So many people don't want to walk or take the bus and I don't understand why.
When you just quickly drive by, you miss so much and interact with fewer people.
Just a side story not meant to oppose your point which I agree with: Ironically, this is exactly why I used to drive in my previous apartment. Last time I walked around, a group of Trump supporters waved signs angrily in my face. They were carrying picket signs and would swing their signs at passing cars and then pull back just in time for it to not hit. I wasn't wearing any liberal gear, I was just walking through. I'm Asian. They did not do the same to white people passing by.
I'm not saying anything political, that's just literally what happened.
"Not racist, but number one among racists."
I live in an apartment complex about two blocks away from university and walk to class everyday, about 10-15 mins depending where on campus its located. I have college neighbors who have $185 per semester parking passes for campus parking and literally drive 2 fucking minutes to park despite how close we are. Our street is always full of students who don't want to pay for the insane cost of a pass and yet these people can somehow justify that.
It blows my mind.
This is great advice, if you live in a safe part of a city, where stores aren't sprawled out 10+ minute drives away.
You've got the cause and effect backwards: the stores are sprawled out miles away because not enough people ride bikes!
The need to accommodate cars has a huge detrimental effect on the urban form, forcing us to waste huge amounts of space on roads and parking facilities.
Where I live it has more to do with the price of commercial real estate ;)
Or rather, the stores are sprawled out because too many people drive cars. And also, the infrastructure built has a bigger effect on demand from different vehicles than anything. In transportation, supply shapes demand.
I don't see it as a problem. shrug
Do you honestly not care about climate change? Can you not see the suffering it will cause? Apathy is going to destroy this planet
And this is why the car century was a terrible idea, and the suburbs that came with it need to be torn down and their residents returned to the cities they were originally part of.
I like the suburbs. Lots of parks and stuff and things can just generally be bigger since things are more stretched out.
Parks that no one goes to, situated in the center of the winding maze that is the subdivision, because all anyone does is drive.
I grew up in suburbia and it was great. Every kid has a bike. We'd spend all day riding around, going into the forests, getting slushies at the Mac's, building forts. It was a good time.
There are positives and negatives - kids in suburbs are probably physically safer, but mental health issues amongst teenagers are more prevalent.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/200503/teens-suburban-blues
Exactly. Once you hit your teenage years, there's nothing to do but drugs, which is why there's such a problem.
And physical health outcomes are worse for adults living in suburbs. But folks who like gardening and huge spaces and lots of stuff appreciate the suburbs.
Too bad they pay someone else to garden for the most part.
Maybe in Ritchie Ritch McTrillionaire subdivisions. In my middle class neighbourhood even a Weed Man truck was an uncommon sight.
Is that bad? The gardeners need money too, and someone may just enjoy relaxing in a nice garden.
I had to scroll a disappointing distance to find this.
I just can't identify with this goal at all.
Public transit takes 3 times longer in most cases. That is an insane waste of my time. I would lose hours a week. Literally everything I do in my life, including sleeping and watching TV (and of course more productive and engaging activities) is more important than any theoretical "community building".
I'll build community while walking the dog... who is very thankful to not be locked up that extra 2 hours public transit would add to my day.
And I am not an unusual case, I am average.
I think you really have to live in a specific type of area for this to be a workable goal. Where I live, it would take hours to walk to most places. If my husband decided to walk to work, he would have to leave at 2 in the morning to get there on time. Biking would cut the time down some, but not enough to make it a realistic option in most cases. And public transportation isn't a thing here. I've lived several different places, in multiple states, and I've never lived in a place where it would be possible to walk to the places you need to go.
Is it possible to live closer to worker?
In general, moving isn't as simple a solution as people often make it out to be - it's a costly process and (depending on how far you have to move) could mean giving up friendships and activities, and (if you're going from less urban to more urban) often means going from a quieter area to a more crowded area with a higher cost of living and potentially having to give up your pets. For us specifically, as far as I know there aren't any residential areas within walking distance of his office (and even if there were, it would involve crossing a busy highway on foot), so no.
A lot of people where I am can't afford to live close to the city where the jobs are. Many people live a 70km drive away, and transit doesn't even go out that far, even if they wanted to waste 6+ hours a day just commuting to and from work. Even driving takes about a 3 hour round trip during rush hour.
That's totally legit, but also the reason the transit system is shitty and slow is because the city hasn't invested properly in the transit system. Lots of places have incredible, efficient bus or train networks.
Our transit system was rated #3 in North America which still pales in comparison to Asia, of course so I think it's both expensive housing (avg 1 million per house out there) and the transit system itself.
Oh damn... It seems like it's really so different city to city. I live in St. Louis where the transit system is garbage, but the city itself is super affordable, you can live right in the center for like $400/mo or even cheaper. I can bike to the far reaches of the city in 25 minutes, or take transit and take 3 times as long.
I should probably mention that this city 70km away has it's own transit system/company because it's basically a different region altogether... until the real estate market forced people out. It's a lose-lose situation overall. $400/mo at the city centre sounds like a dream.
There are definitely places where this wouldn't work. If driving suits you better, then drive. I think this is more about people who drive even when they don't have to though.
For ex: I live about half an hour from my local city. I could absolutely drive there and get there a little bit faster, or I could take a two minute drive to the train station, save gas, the environment, and not have to be actively paying attention to the road.
It's not for everyone, but if everyone that could take public transport did, I feel there would be a lot less traffic in the mornings making people like you who have to drive lives' much easier.
This makes no sense to me. If you are a half hour drive from the nearest city, what the hell is a train station doing 2 minutes from your house?
I live about an hour drive from the nearest city, and about 2 hours from the nearest train station. I'm 15 minutes from the nearest place to get on a bus which comes once a day and takes 3 hours to get to the city that is a 1 hour drive. There are no other options for public transport.
Can you not see form reading your own comment on the point of having a train station there? It allows people to get into cities faster, costs less and is better for the environment.
Oh absolutely. I'm just jealous.
In Chicago, people who are 45 minutes from the city center have a MUCH shorter train trip to get there, and the suburbs are well connected to public transit for that reason. It's just a much much better way to move masses of people.
This is also your choice; you chose to live based upon driving, and, sure, great for you, but all of the external costs to this is eaten up by the rest of society. These costs are environmental, fiscal (for urban development), and social (because we design neighbourhoods around cars instead of people). There is also a large health cost for you due to commuting by car.
My husband works for the city making sure your water reaches (and leaves) your home 24/7 and loves his job but because it doesn't pay those stellar techy wages we had to buy our house an hour away. Any chance that helps to cancel out our burden to society lol
Definitely, but also cities are not that unaffordable... I just find it hard to understand how people choose to pollute the atmosphere every day. It's like, you would get angry if you saw someone littering but you're doing basically the same thing or worse when you jump in a car.
That's super privileged of you to say, considering that some professions like teaching and trades don't allow folks to live by convenient public transportation once they have a kiddo and need more than a studio apartment.
How does that work? I live in the middle of a major city and am surround by families with two working parents who are far from rich. I'm just confused by what you're saying.
That's surprising -- I also live in the middle of a major city (downtown) and am surrounded by young single professionals or DINK professionals. The parents I work with all live outside of the city, or at least the downtown area with convenient access to public transportation.
Depends on where you live; my partner is a teacher, tradespeople make more money than I do. YMMV; especially if you bike! ; )
Do you make more than your spouse and thus are the main earner? If not, I'm trying to think of how you'd be able to live the downtown area of a major city (NYC, SF, LA, Seattle), unless you're talking about a smaller city.
I don't bike but some of my coworkers do... unfortunately, not a single one of them hasn't been in a biking accident while I've known them. This ranged from a concussion resulting in permanent brain injury to a broken finger to skin getting scraped off from a fall. They've continued to bike (except for the woman who got the concussion) so I'm sure biking is enjoyable enough that they'll take the risk, but personally I'd rather not.
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It creates pollution to use gas for your car, not to mention the material and environmental cost of manufacturing cars and car accessories. If we built our cities in a way that they were walkable or more convenient for public transit we would save a lot in terms of money and pollution.
Please explain this large health cost by driving a car to work you self righteous prick.
Well, /u/Jerry_gallow, it's actually really, really healthy. For example:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2017/sep/17/the-miracle-pill-how-cycling-could-save-the-nhs
But don't take my word for it; scholar.google.com is your friend.
However, I will insist that you keep the discourse polite.
Yeah who would’ve imagined exercise is healthy? So your argument is that everyone who doesn’t ride a bike to work is unhealthy? Gotcha
In the US, public transit only works if you live in a major city. If you are in the suburbs, or rural areas, or medium/small towns it's not even an option.
There's literally nothing within 2.5 miles of my house except other houses and 2 daycare places. I work 23 miles away on a route that no public transport would ever even consider.
Even in major cities it's usually pretty terrible. But another thing I don't get is, why do people talk about where they live as if that wasn't a choice? This isn't a feudal serfdom, you can move to a city.
I live in the biggest city in the area. I work in a very niche field and our company is in the middle of nowhere. I don't have many options unless I want a career change.
That's totally valid, and obviously there are a ton of ways people can reduce their environmental impact. But the fact remains that essentially if we don't reduce our greenhouse production dramatically, it's the end of the human race. So people need to do something.
I used to live literally right behind a grocery store, but my roommate at the time refused to walk through our parking lot and across the alley to get to the store and would always drive. It was less than a minute to walk there, almost 10 minutes to get to the car, get in, start it, drive out of the complex, drive out onto the main road, turn into the parking lot of the store, get out, and walk from the car to the store. It was actually less walking to just walk from our back door to the store.
THANK YOU. I can't believe I had to scroll this far down the page to see "don't drive."
You’re not wrong but America is not a very friendly pedestrian/bike place. (With a few exceptions)
That's not an excuse. Consider the Netherlands, probably the most bicycle-friendly country in the world. Why are they that way? It's not because they're somehow fundamentally different than us; back in the 1960s they were just as car-centric as the United States. It's because since then, they made a conscious collective decision to prioritize bicycle infrastructure.
All it boils down to is "build it, and they will come." If you build roads, you get more people driving. If you build bicycle infrastructure, you get more people riding bikes. Simple as that.
I've been calling the reps and senators in my purple state to beg for better transit/bike paths for a year. I am one of hundreds of thousands of people asking for this....absolutely no response or indication that things will mobilize. If only politicians subscribed to an ideology of building things for future generations anymore.
It takes way longer than a year, but it can and does eventually happen. Cities tend to have a "pipeline" for infrastructure planning that can take a decade or more between projects getting added to the infrastructure plan and actually getting built. But the key is that they have to get on that infrastructure plan (which most places update every five years or so) to begin with, so that's where you should focus your efforts.
It's not like I'm standing outside my congressman's house like "WHY HAVEN'T YOU GOTTEN IT DONE YET TICK TOCK???" I mean: most of my state is asking for better infrastructure, and there is dead silence about a plan, a timeline, anything. Our city gave billions to the construction of a lightrail between ourselves and another city. Six years ago. They've been talking about it for over a decade, they have the money, and not even a date for breaking ground. I voted in my last municipal election, agreeing to every single tax hike for infrastructure. Schools, roads, transit, whatever. And I expect that vote to count or something, because that allegedly happens in America sometimes.
Let me put it this way: remember that Netherlands example I mentioned earlier? They started in the '70s and have only been considered a cycling utopia for maybe a decade or so now.
Also, rail transit especially takes an extremely long time. In Atlanta, the Beltline plan was originally envisioned in 1999 and became a serious plan with broad support in 2005, but we haven't laid a single mile of rail yet. (We've got a significant fraction of the multi-use paths built, though.)
Don't get me wrong, the glacial pace of infrastructure is certainly worth getting pissed off about (how is it that we were able to build entire heavy-rail transit systems like MARTA from scratch back in the '70s, but can't expand them quickly now?). But getting discouraged and giving up isn't an option.
Yeah. I'm not planning on giving up. I'll just get drunk and call my senator more. ))):
You might also get farther calling local politicians instead of just state/federal ones.
Those too. I haven't missed an election (even local) since I was 18.
The best thing is now it's easy to call out / start a conversation with local politicians on Facebook or Twitter too. I've done that several times and got immediate responses.
Simple as that, huh?
But the bicycle lanes are NOT there right now. Should I build them myself?
Should I build them myself?
But more seriously, you could help organize a cyclovia or open streets event in your city to show others how viable biking really could be.
It's not a lack of infrastructure that prevents viability in the US, it's mostly the distance between things. We are much more spread out geographically than most places in Europe.
it's mostly the distance between things
Nah, we just have a lot more empty space that reduces the average, but nobody's suggesting building bike lanes in the middle of nowhere. Urban areas in the US are just as dense as urban areas in Europe (give or take the suburbs that developed after the 1950s).
Our summers here in the southern US get up to about 104F. We've got bike lanes here but that can be exhausting and even dangerous.
I live in Atlanta and bike anyway. ~~Cry~~ Sweat me a river.
You mean Hotlanta
I bike every day in STL in the 98 degree heat or 0 degree cold. That being said, for a less able-bodied person it could definitely be dangerous.
In urban areas, it's 100% the lack of infrastructure. I live in a supposedly bike friendly city, and biking every day here is a little terrifying/takes a lot of dedication because there just isn't bike friendly infrastructure in most places it's needed. Which is a shame because bike infrastructure is relatively cheap.
Ot of curiosity, what city is that?
I live in St. Louis, MO. I think the situation here is similar to in a lot of other "shrinking" postindustrial cities in the US of similar size. The way we build infrastructure in these cities is still completely in service to cars and it's super inconvenient and unsafe for people who can't afford / don't want a car. We has a disproportionately high rate of pedestrian/cyclist fatalities.
I've been biking full time for 3 years now, and can confirm, it is a constant test of my patience and principles to be nearly killed as often as I am.
THIS! If you can, make the choice for small, walkable communities. Waited for years to nab a house in a community with walking access instead if "the burbs." We walk to a local grocery, video rental, ice cream, library, etc.
You had me until "video rental." Did i just take a time machine to 1998?
they might mean RedBox
because fuck renting digital movies, i ain't paying 5.99 to see some shit redbox has for $2 outside the gas station I walk past everyday.
Unfortunately the area I live in doesn't support walking. It's a 20+ minute drive to get anywhere. I still try to walk to the couple of places that are close.
I loved walking everywhere when I lived in south west china for 6 months. When I totaled it up, I was walking 4 miles or more each day, and because none of it was long distance for a single walk I never felt like it was terribly far.
Cut me a break man I live too far out in the country for this one.
Of course they are a lot of people the do need to drive but there are just as many if not more people that could substitute a 15 minute walk for a 5 minute car ride. At my old house I used to live 3-4 blocks from the grocery store and I would walk, all of my neighbors would drive no matter how big or small their shop was. Every now and then I'd be walking home from somewhere and a neighbor would see me walking and pull over to see if I needed a ride, it just didn't occur to them not to drive and that needs to be changed.
Biking to work makes my entire life so damn much more enjoyable
But it's fucking cold out
Can’t identify with this. Even if I have a manual transmission in heavy traffic, I’d rather drive. It’s fun, and more often than not, therapeutic.
If you like having five or six gears in a car, think of how much fun you'll have with 20 or 30 of them on a bike!
No engine sound, steering wheel, clutch pedal, car-specific driving characteristics, etc. I have a multi-speed bike. There’s no comparison.
Yeah, I know, I was making a joke.
But still, as both a car enthusiast and a cyclist myself, I say commute on a bicycle and save the car for the racetrack or mountain road or whatever.
What about the other benefits? Potentially saving money, time or the planet. Maybe I am the strange one but I can't see how anyone can find being stuck in traffic therapeutic, but cycling past a load of stationary cars? That feels amazing
It’s just the feeling of being behind the wheel. The feeling of being in that seat.
What about the feeling of your bones breaking when you get hit by one of these cars?
For years I lived in areas where things were in walking distance-I loved being able to walk everywhere, and only used my car when I had to. Now I live in the boonies, and don't get to walk nearly enough. It SUCKS!
I just wish train prices made sense. It's not much more expensive to fill a private helicopter than a few train tickets in some parts of the UK.
I'm the asshole friend who still doesn't drive and the number of times it's a problem are so small compared to how often it would be a problem to own and drive a car.
Not to be an ass, and not trying to troll...but what if idgaf about that? Like, honestly, I have no interest in being surrounded by people I don't know, learning about them, or whatever that little store they're going to is, aside from the fact that I have to drive for work, I like driving because I don't have to deal with all that (as far as I'm concerned/imo) bullshit...I'm not saying I don't care about the environment, I agree with what you said about that, but all the "be part of the community" is, as far as im concerned, uggghhh ick
I'm thankfully close by to where I work, but the short distance it is is a clusterfuck of freeway on-ramps/off-ramps and people are notoriously inattentive while driving that stretch. I would love to bike to work again, but value staying alive. :(
On the upside I do make an effort to walking to the nearby grocery stores, and absolutely maximize my time spent when I do drive my car around so I don't have to start and stop my car too many times.
And try to avoid flying if at all possible.
While advances in aviation emissions would be fantastic, I'm pretty sure it's still half decent given the number of people that can fit on a plane.
Defenders of flying argue that for one person it is as bad on a per mile basis as driving (so a plane of 100 people vs 100 cars). A round trip from Texas to London is about 10k miles. That is about as much as most people drive in a year.
This means that one flight to Europe is about as bad as driving for an entire year even if you are using estimates that are friendly to flying.
A flight from Texas to India (where all my rich "environmentalist" friends go now) is about 15000 miles if it is a one leg flight (which it would not be). This means that one round trip ticket to India is about as bad as three years of driving.
So is this point of view just saying that people in Texas shouldn't go to India at all? Because the per year data means nothing if that person is going to travel an extra several thousand miles at some point during that year.
So is this point of view just saying that people in Texas shouldn't go to India at all?
It means that people in the US are only paying a small fraction of the total cost of a flight to india. If they are not selfish, then they should avoid long flights if at all possible.
Yeah fuck that. Life is too short.
Thread about what proper can do to be good people. Doesn't want to inconvenience himself/herself so gives up on trying to be a good person.
Nice
Avoiding products with Palm Oil is a good one.
Here's a good summary of why: SayNoToPalmOil
I'm trying to do this. Honestly really hard, it seems to be in everything.
I just stopped washing my hands, now I have plenty of palm oil.
Gah, I was so mad at myself the other day. My wife and I were looking for a new shampoo/conditioner that doesn't have sodium lauryl sulfate (which we became aware of thanks to Jonathan from Queer Eye). We FINALLY found one that doesn't have that in it and bought it, and it was only when I was in the shower the next morning that I looked closer and saw that both the shampoo and conditioner have palm oil. Fuck me, gotta be more vigilant.
I recently (in the last few months) switched to an Argan oil shampoo and silk conditioner from Maple...uh, either Holistics or Organics, I can’t remember which (found it on amazon). No palm oil, no SLS, and goddamn I swear my hair has never been softer in my life.
It’s a bit pricey, but a little goes a long way with this stuff so it lasts a while.
It's tough, but you have the added bonus of cutting out a lot of processed foods, which means you end up eating healthier and avoid contributing to deforestation and the extinction of orangutans.
Really? What kind of stuff is it in? Maybe I just haven't noticed because I don't look for it
Shampoo, makeup, pet food, pretty much all the sweet treats like chocolate. I really didn't think it would be in much till I was looking for it.
Ah okay thanks, yeah looks like it's probably in my shampoo and toothpaste
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[The Union of Concerned Scientists] warn against boycotting palm oil altogether. “That would mean shifting problems onto another commodity."
Basically my first thought. Mass production of palm oil may come with problems, but if we all use something different, we get the problems of mass production of something else. What needs to be done is to find the something else that's both sustainable and healthy (and maybe work on halting world population growth.)
What oil is better than sustainable palm oil?
As far as I know there isn't one. So the thing to avoid is non-sustainable palm oil. Not palm oil entirely.
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Depending on where you live there is a certification logo or something.
https://www.worldwildlife.org/publications/palm-oil-scorecard-2016
Look for responsibly sourced palm oil. Palm oil in itself or sustainable plantations are not bad. No need to harm whole industries because of the bad guys. You are not boycotting against all clothing only because a few manufacturers use child labor.
Very good point people rarely make when palm oil comes up online
point people rarely make
That film doesn't prove that sustainable palm oil is a myth, or even claim to. It attempts to prove that the current system for certifying that palm oil is sustainably sourced is flawed, and in my layman's opinion, it makes some real good points. That doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater, though. Lets fix the problems instead.
Yeah, we should be trying to make responsibly sourced products more profitable than their cheaper unsustainable alternatives, not driving them out of business by boycotting the product completely.
I live in Malaysia. This is difficult :(
Fucking oreos man
It's hard because it's in so many things, but for example I avoid the organic peanut butter at whole foods because they extract the peanut oil to sell and replace it with palm oil. I buy the one without palm oil listed in the ingredients.
TL;DR - African countries deforest to make room for palm oil production, which leads to animals losing their homes, becoming endangered, and some close to extinction.
"... an area the equivalent size of 300 football fields of rainforest is cleared each hour to make way for palm oil production."
Animal agriculture is responsible for 91% of Amazon deforestation. Palm oil, 7%. Yes, Palm oil is a major contributor, but we really should also be looking at cutting back on meat.
The palm oil problem is more in Southeast Asia. The meat problem in the Amazon is completely different. They should both be taken seriously.
Didn't realize it was such a big issue in Asia, thank you for the expansion of knowledge
South-East Asian countries
FTFY
Your username is A+
I work for a chemical company that produces palm-based products and, unfortunately, the value chain for a lot of goods involves palm (and animals too), despite whether it makes it to the end product. Things like cutting/tooling fluids in the manufacture of metal goods, or lubricants for aluminum cans, or corrosion inhibitors in brake fluids. Fortunately the industry is working hard to move toward coconut-, soy-, and canola-based oils, and this is especially true for personal care products.
This is VERY important! Thank you!!
I couldn't find Almond butter without palm oil. So disappointing!! :(
Make your own!! It’s so easy. Buy raw almonds, put them in a food processor. That’s literally it. Take at the most three minutes. It takes more time to clean the food processor.
Oh WHAT!! I had no idea that was an option LOL!
And that way you control the amount you make. Always fresh and also less waste!
It’s hard because that replaced partially hydrogenated oil which is really bad for our hearts. So it’s kill the planet or kill your heart. OR just give up(or reduce)foods that use either
Next year or so the US finally ban trans fats completely.
Is there any decent popcorn that doesn't use this? Particularly with butter.
I go to the store and every bag of microwavable popcorn has palm oil as like the 3rd ingredient.
You could do the old popcorn kernels in a paper bag trick, instead. I usually cook popcorn in a stockpot and then cover it in butter (which is probably less environmentally friendly than palm oil...)
And that’s why I gave up nutella
We have just posted a similar blog, because it is a massive problem - http://circularscandinavia.com/2018/05/09/no-to-palm-oil/
Any comments?
What about sustainable palm oil? Like the kind from Tropical Traditions seems legit
What other oils could you use? Peanut oil causes allergic reactions. What alternative for Palm Oils.
Picking up random trash when you’re out and about. If everybody picked up at least a little bit of trash when they see it, I’m pretty sure we could reduce how much stuff gets consumed by animals and entered into our natural areas
Don't cheat on your girlfriend/boyfriend.
Stop having so many damn kids.
Why does every jerk think they're fit to be a parent?
Stop having kids simply because you "want" them— really do some soul-searching and reevaluate yourself first. This should be a well-thought out, responsible, weighty decision after much deliberation and consideration for what's best for the potential child/ren. I understand kids are not always planned, but if that's the case, it's even more imperative that you work on bettering yourself for the sake of the child/ren. Please make sure you're stable first, at the very least...stable mentally, psychologically, emotionally, physically, financially, etc... Work on your relationship. This matters. And if you're a single parent, work on yourself. Stop adding to your family back to back, so that you can grow your little cult/tribe/team, or however you justify it. That's not a valid enough reason for having a large family. Quality over quantity. Stop having kids so selfishly.
Stop having kids because you think this is "what you're supposed to do," or this is how you conform, or this is how you elevate your status, or this is how you validate your marriage/partnership, or this is how you appear, like, "cool" or "legit" to others.
Stop having kids you can't afford.
Stop having kids because your partner wants them.
Stop having kids before you're ready.
Stop having kids before you're both ready.
Stop having kids when you can barely even adult.
Stop having kids as an accessory.
Stop having kids, because you want to "pass on your genes" and you think you'd "make cute babies." Seriously? Get over yourself. This is a human life we're talking about, not a Nintendo character. I'd probably produce cute offspring. That doesn't mean I should.
And if you're abusing or neglecting your kid/s— fuck you. No, seriously, fuck you. You're scum and you don't deserve to be a parent. (I say this as a product of narcissistic abuse.)
Use condoms and birth control.
Don't say the name of school shooters. A part of their motivation is to get on some kind of leaderboard and have notoriety. These people actually get fan mail.
I can't upvote this enough. Their names should never be uttered publicly and they should disappear into obscurity. They want the infamy and the headlines convince others that randomly killing as many people as possible is the thing to do when you are depressed, feel rejected by your cohort, and are suicidal.
Or stick their names with something very shameful. "Last night, a man with a very tiny penis opened fire..."
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I see it as an attempt to separate the sin from the sinner. People don't want to admit that the shooter is a human being like anyone else, and so they single them out, call out there name and define them as a monster so that they don't have to look at themselves and confront the evil that they are capable of as well. Nobody seems to ask what the motivation is behind actions like these, but everyone is excited about having a new "creature" to hate. Don't get me wrong, school shooters are pieces of shit that deserve life in prison, but I don't believe that the motivations are obvious at all and we need to look at them very closely and extremely honestly if we want to get to the bottom of it.
This is where i'm at, as well.
I seriously don't think every, or even most school shooters' primary motivation is to become some kind of creepy superstar. Yes, the Columbine kids did, and it seems like Seung-hui Cho (VA Tech shooter) did, but beyond that, things get pretty blurry as far as motivations, and in place of facts, there are "theories."
I live in a town where a rather infamous school shooting happened. The dude was (to me) one of the most evil criminals in recent history, due to how he responded to everything. Most people here, from strangers to people who knew him, 100% believe his motivation was to go after a girl who broke up with him and her new boyfriend. He's considered to be someone who was "wired badly" and couldn't handle rejection. In fact, quite a few school attacks involving "older adults" tend to have their roots in romantic problems involving school employees.
Other incidents, like the Aurora movie theater shooting, the shooter appears so beyond deranged that it's believable they might not even know what possessed them to do it.
I majored in journalism in university, and we talked about things like the ethics of covering mass shootings rather frequently. The problem with leaving the names and information of major criminals out of news reports compromises the honesty of news. People can say what they want about how all news is "fake," etc, but there are reporters out there, especially during tragedies, who take great care to present accurate information, and as much of it as possible, and they need to be allowed to do their jobs IMO.
I totally understand that the name is a necessary part of the story, but could we leave it out of the headlines at least?
Regarding them as inhuman freaks is just as big an injustice to you, them, and society. These people are committing things because of perceived wrongdoings of people and society on them. They may well be total fabrications based on their bad morals and cognitive ability. To understand that will help you understand why these things are happening and what you can do to help avoid it are key.
Never refer to the sickest in society as inhuman.
i've been saying this forever. stop making criminals into celebrities.
fuck your news ratings. grow some balls and just stop doing it.
Most school shooter commit suicide during the act. Willfully misunderstanding the root of the problem will make it impossible to solve.
Sure it's seductive idea that people do it for the infamy and recognition but if you read what they wrote, they will tell you they were out to get revenge on life and being.
I believe it's a mixture of both, and it depends on the particular shooting.
Don't type the name of anyone who should be lost to obscurity. In the age of the internet typing someone's name increases their visibility in a very real way.
It's why I always refer to %#@&^ as "The orange nutsack"
Ha! Here's another ethical decision; don't vote for people ironically, because they might actually become the president.
Why would anyone do that ever?
Because they're using irony as a thin veil for their genuine bigotry.
😂 I voted for Harambae lol. 😅
Relevant username holy shit
"Why?" indeed...
Gross. I'm actually pretty happy that I have yet to hear the name or even see a picture of the parkland shooter. I can't imagine being so fucked up in the head to send fan mail. People are crazy.
Totally agrees Sadly, there’s been so many recently I can’t remember any of their names. Fuck em all.
I honestly doubt this is true. Have any of the shooters ever said they wanted fame?
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It's really just about mental illness. I really haven't seen anything that makes me believe the "attention" aspect is any more strong than the myriad of other feelings the shooter has.
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I mean blaming it on "fame" or "attention" is also vague and useless, and probably wrong more often than it's right.
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that are proven to influence them
oh, that's baloney. Proven by whom? Reddit wizards?
The guy who shot Gianni Versace and the guy who made the parkland school shooting. Probably the guy from San berdanino too.
sources? ...also the Versace murder is not a mass shooting - it was just a regular murder.
the guy up there didn't ask about mass shootings, he asked about shooters in general. I know the Versace murder was a single homicide.
Dude said "the shooters" which we can infer means "the shooters from the aforementioned group" aka school shooters. If dude had left out the "the" and just said "shooters", then you can assume it's opened up to all shooters in general.
the guy killed a few other people before Versace
John Hinckley got letters from women including marriage proposals. WTF was that shit about?
So did Charles Manson. His accomplice....Tex something or other...fathered a couple kids from jail after getting married to one of his "fans."
Never search true crime on tumblr. It's fucked up.
Most of them killed themselves before they could say. And I wouldn't say they want fame as much as they want to be feared. Those are different things.
The awe and fame they get may inspire copycats. Someone sees the news and thinks "20 dead? I'll do 200! That'll teach 'em."
why isn't this higher up?
STOP using disposable plastics. If you need convincing, google the Pacific garbage patch.
So I did what you said and it erm, came up with a picture of my house.
I’m sorry you had to find out like this.
not like this
*pulls the plug
x.x
I love your username by the way
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how did it end up like this?
That’s funny, I got a picture of my ex girlfriend
Not your pacific garbage patvh
Pacific not pathetic.
What do train station houses look like?
Grab a shovel.
Disclaimer: I do NOT disagree with your post
however, if we can learn anything from the history of global warming/climate change evolving rhetoric, please, please, please, do not exaggerate or misrepresent the pacific garbage patch as anything but what it is...from wiki.
"There has been some controversy surrounding the use of the term "garbage patch" and photos taken off the coast of Manila in the Philippines in attempts to portray the patch in the media often misrepresenting the true scope of the problem and what could be done to solve it. Angelicque White, Associate Professor at Oregon State University, who has studied the "garbage patch" in depth, warns that "the use of the phrase 'garbage patch' is misleading. ... It is not visible from space; there are no islands of trash; it is more akin to a diffuse soup of plastic floating in our oceans." In the article Dr. White and Professor Tamara Galloway, from the University of Exeter, call for regulation and cleanup and state that the focus should be on stemming the flow of plastic into the ocean from coastal source".
If we fall into the mass media hyperbole trap of a physical location that float atop the water we're are doomed to an endless straw man argument debate with people who do not wish change in the status quo.
It is a real problem whether or not to is obvious from the deck of a cruise liner.
it is more akin to a diffuse soup of plastic floating in our oceans
That's so much worse than "garbage islands".
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Nah, I don't think they're radioactive quite yet
Just because it isn’t visible from the space or the deck of a cruiser doesn’t mean it isn’t a catastrophe
That is exactly what I ended my post with.
Where is most of the garbage in that patch coming from? I was under the impression that it is mostly from places like China. I believe most of the garbage is the US is sent to landfills and buried.
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Is that the one where after years they speculated an intelligent octopus that could swing through trees might inherit the earth?
lol.
I know it's funny but /u/BimsyClustercamp remembers it!
No, that was another one that predicted evolution of life millions of years after humans. "Life After People" (also another one out there called "Aftermath: Population Zero") focused strictly on human-made structures and the environment.
Interesting will have to look at that.
By any chance do you recall the name of the octopus one? I have been looking for it for awhile. No one understands what I mean when I mention it.
Very excited you seem to have seen the same program!
A Google search for "discovery channel future animals" brings up a mini series called "The Future is Wild." I think that's the one.
So I hope you laugh at this but when I googled I entered "smart octopus swinging from tree"!
Thank you for your googling help!
I did laugh at that! You're welcome!
You are thinking of “the future is wild” one of the best documentaries ever made
Hey! Thanks. So glad to hear it has stayed on other's minds like it has for me. I remember forcing my family to watch it as they complained lol.
Humans won't die out. Greatly decrease in number perhaps, but its very unlikely we'll be gone completely
Yeah, but at this point you’re quite close to the dark ages again
I might be naïeve but won't (plastic) garbage in modern western countries be either recycled or burnt in controlled environments instead of thrown into the ocean?
If my apartment complex is any indicator, no. People just throw garbage and recyclables into whichever bin is closer to their front door.
Ok but even then, the plastics get to the garbage burning plant (or whatever it is called). I don't think we dump garbage in the ocean or rivers. Poorer countries probably do but I would be surprised if plastic out of my garbage would find its way into the ocean.
Until recently the USA actually would ship tons of garbage to China. Some of that garbage has probably spilled in rough seas and whatnot.
Burning plastic packaging after one use isn't that terrible. In a lot of cases, there's no hygienic alternative to plastic packaging.
Still better to recycle it (what I do) of course.
But PE for example burns very clean. And the waste burning facility nearby my place is used to heat the surrounding towns, so not a total waste.
Right, but apparently significant numbers of people without electricity are burning fossil fuels to create light, which is far far worse.
Actually better to stick it a landfill.
Yes. its all from countries with poor waste management.
Buy a reusable water bottle, a thermos, and a food thermos. Make your own coffee and tea at home (most of the time), and take your water bottle with you everywhere. Plan your meals out in advance and load up your food thermos or reusable tupperware and bring lunch to work.
Easier said than done. A lot of stuff is just not available in anything other than plastic containers.
Serious: So what do you use to pick up your dog crap when walking?
I think dog poop bags aren't the target here (theres a case to be made that the plastic holding the poop is better than letting the poop break down which is pretty toxic due to the protein content). I think he means things like disposable razors, straws, plastic cups, "disposable" plastic food containers (chinese food or other take-away containers), etc. Things we use constantly in every-day life that literally serve in a "one-time use" capacity and then get thrown away.
letting the poop break down which is pretty toxic due to the protein content
Toxic to whom/what? When my gf's dog poops in my yard, I just spray the poop with the hose and hope it fertilizes the yard. Should I not do this?
Mostly other animals. Poop from dogs is not a fertilizer because it has protein heavy ingredients which do not breakdown the same as plant heavy poop like from cows or horses. You should never treat dog poop as fertilizer and instead pick it up and throw it in the trash like other waste.
Biodegradable poop bags
Those are usually made from PVA, which is made from corn and is biodegradable. It will take longer than paper to degrade if not properly composted, but even in nature it will degrade in less than a few years
100% agree to stop using disposable plastics, read an article this morning however claiming that the vast majority of the great Pacific garbage patch is actually microplastics and fishing gear. Just thought that was interesting
It scariest thing is that it's not really visible. Just a mass of tiny plastic particles in the Pacific Ocean.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch
That's terrifying.
What if I recycled all disposable plastic? Does that make a difference? We use quite a bit of disposable plastic in my household, but we always recycle it.
Pacific garbage patch
Anybody know who I can pay to see it for real? Sounds weird but I like checking out things that aren't typically normal. This sucks.
i bought a metal fork,knife, and spoon i keep at my desk and stopped using the plastic wear from the cafe. if 1000 coworkers did this im sure itd make a difference
I did a speech for on this in college. I was shocked to find out how many people have no idea what the PGP is.
Or watch A Plastic Ocean
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/06/plastic-british-diver-films-sea-rubbish-bali-indonesia
Hasn't it been shown that the video was faked? Not to say that plastic isn't a problem in the oceans, but the plastic island seems to be BS, the video was made in a lab.
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Marine biologist here. These patches 100% do exist, and are a huge problem. They are not just “some plastic bags”, but a combination of plastic and debris, some broken down into micro plastics and some not.
Source: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-22939-w
Can't we build a solar power robot that can clean the water? A quick google search I found this http://www.bluebird-electric.net/oceanography/Ocean_Plastic_International_Rescue/SeaVax_Ocean_Clean_Up_Robot_Drone_Ship_Sea_Vacuum.htm
Basically Wall-E?
It's like 10x buffer than we first thought:( and I've no idea what the density is
Throw that shit to space!
Wait, how would your disposable plastics end up in the ocean if they are going to a landfill? Not that landfilling is a good thing, but the plastics in the ocean have nothing to do with throwing away disposables unless you are actively littering.
Well the garbage patch comes from outright littering. If you properly dispose of your plastic you are not contributing to that problem.
You know that your plastic just ends up in a landfill, right? There are a few countries with poor waste management systems responsible for almost all of the garbage patch. You forgoing some grocery bags or straws does absolutely nothing to solve that problem. Sure, reduce waste wherever you can, but the big problem is global warming, and the best way to reduce that is to stop driving everywhere and to stop eating animal products.
Surprised being an organ donor isn't higher up.
Also - the bone marrow registry too.
yes - absolutely. Bone marrow and stem cells are regenerated.
Along with being an organ donor, you should definitely make an effort to donate blood whenever you can. It can make an immediate difference in someone else's life.
Blood and platelets. Some people live day to day on platelets.
Its sad that people can still be selfish about something they'll be dead for, which could save more than one life. It should be the other way around, everybody should be qualified to be a donor unless they objected.
I think organ donation should be an opt out as well. Of the people I’ve asked (roughly 2) about why they aren’t a donor, the response is usually about feeling weird about it in some way. To me bs, but I personally was never given or heard any talk about why you should check that box...which may be why it’s so taboo to some.
Maybe they will feel embarassed and be looked like a mean person, thats why it should be private info.
I'm donating my cadaver to medical science so I think I'll need it all to get in tact.
Well the people I’m talking about most certainly aren’t donating their bodies to science either.
We have a system like this in Finland.
Why i only hear great things about Finland? You guys really know how to have a country.
be the comment you want to see at the top
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People are afraid they won't get the same level of care once they get sick. Like doctors will let them die so they can use their organs to save multiple others.
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More than you'd think. Like half my family isn't an organ donor and I rarely get a good answer on why.
Perhaps it is an ethical predicament that is yet uneasy to approach for many people.
No give up straws !! I saw a video !! It's more important !!
My reasoning is I'm not gonna need the damn things when I'm gone, coupled with the fact I ride a motorbike, I would just feel irresponsible to not be a donor
It should be automatic with an opt-out option.
blood, plasma and platelet donation too.
Put the shopping cart back where it belongs. There are usually several available places for it.
I've always thought you should be able to be given a ticket for leaving a shopping cart out in the lot, because you're creating a road hazard.
And people could use the extra steps.
It baffles me that this continues to be a problem anywhere in the world. Do you not have these?
some stores do. not all.
What is that?
Fuck those twats who leave their cart in the middle of a parking space. It’s not a huge problem in the US since parking lots are so big, but it’s a nightmare in the UK because finding parking is a nightmare.
The corollary to this is that stores need to arrange the corals to make sense as well. Walmart in my town doesn't want to take up any of the close parking spots so all the cart corrals are in a single long line in the middle of the HUGE parking lot. 95% of the cars are parked between the cart corals and the building. If you get a good spot to park in then it is usually closer to bring the cart back to the store instead of walking it to a coral.
Most other grocery stores in my area (Kroger, Jewel) have the corals placed close to the store and closer to the back of the lot in alternate rows. With that arrangement you don't usually have very far to walk to put your cart away. Sure they sacrifice a few good spots but overall it is more convenient and I notice fewer stray carts in those lots.
Thank you! I have a pain disorder and park in the handicapped spaces when I'm having a bad pain day. Half the time, there are carts in the spaces! Can't park when there are carts in the spaces!
Aldi charges you a quarter to borrow one, when you return it to it's storage you get your quarter back.
And if the parking lot is empty you can make a game out of it.
I love going to Walmart late at night since their huge parking lot is empty and I can push carts halfway across the place into the corral without worrying about hitting cars.
Who the heck does not do this!? I don't...I don't understand.
Use your turn signal.
https://youtu.be/jzlJQyURUIU
My god YES!! It’s only courteous for crying out loud and it takes a fraction of a second. I don’t get it why it’s so hard for so many people.
Pure selfishness imho.
Seriously. I will always let someone merge in front of me if they signal for it. I don't know why they feel the need to just cut in without signalling, endangering us all.
One of the guidelines for hacker communities I think can be applied to this world: 'be excellent to each other'. Be mindfull of other persons when working/living together or to the ones you haven't met yet. It feels so nice to enter a clean toilet. When in doubt, ask. This requires healthy and clear communication. But also take care of yourself if you feel you are having a bad influence on others. Having a rough day and you're noticing yourself shouting to everyone? Be nice to yourself, talk about it with someone, give yourself a treat. If you could be excellent to the climate and environment as well, that would be wonderful
That is from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.
and those two magnificent bastards changed the world with that slogan.
In the words of Abe Lincoln: These two great gentlemen are dedicated to a proposition which was true in my time, just as it's true today. Be excellent to each other. And Party On, Dudes!
Boycott Nestlé. They sent baby formula to mothers in third world countries, but only enough to last until they stopped producing breastmilk. And since formula is so expensive, the mothers use less than recommended leading to malnourished babies. Oh and they don't have very clean water to mix the formula with.
Plus they killed dogs with treats that contained an ingredient banned by the FDA. Then they ignored the complaints.
Yeah Nestle is pretty awful, you didn't even mention their whole bottled water scam, here's some light reading:
http://www.bottledlifefilm.com/index.php/the-story.html
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/29/nestle-pays-200-a-year-to-bottle-water-near-flint-where-water-is-undrinkable
They have also tried to get water labeled as a "need" not a "right." Which seems small, but is just despicable.
Oh wow, I have a good friend who works for their infant formula division(Gerber) and he told me there have been a lot of lay offs, now I know why. He’s also looking to jump ship
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That list makes me feel uneasy all by itself.
So judging by this list... Basically don't eat shit food?
I almost never eat that kind of food and yet I'm still a little disappointed that Milo and Drumsticks are on the list. I'm also horrified by how many brands are owned by Nestle.
Hotpockets, DiGiorno, and Tombstone? What am I supposed to eat, then?
no not the glorious San Pellegrino....
I don't see San Pellegrino on there and I checked 3 times and did a find search
It's under >beverages>water
Thank you
Maggi too? Fuck. I should look for other stock cubes.
Maggi?! What the heck, I love their instant noodles...
Yes, don't buy Purina, Nestlé doesn't care about the dogs.
Friskies and Fancy Feast are also Nestle so watch out for cats too!
Honestly, Nestle is a poster child for what is wrong with corporations as a whole. They make all of their decisions based on dollars and completely disregard negative effects except to calculate how much it could cost them in dollars. This leads to some extremely predatory and highly unethical behavior.
A boycott should be a no-brainer; however, I think we need to find a way for the lust for a dollar turn into more ethically appropriate outcomes rather than the predatory and unregulated behavior that we currently see from numerous corporations.
The dogged pursuit of the almighty dollar is not bad, as long as the consumers consistently make well-informed, ethical decisions.
If we boycott Nestle, we let them know that their unethical bullshit will not earn them money. It affects their math. They need to realize that the only way to make their almighty dollar is to be decent human beings.
And frankly, it might be better to never end the boycott. Let Nestle choke and go out of business for their crimes. Let them be an example to corporations that consumers will not tolerate unethical behavior.
Even if we could spearhead such a moral crusade, it's a hard road. Unfortunately, not everyone has the luxury to make ethical buying decisions. Between the more ethical brand and the cheaper brand, they have no choice.
Can you recommend any ethical chocolate brands I could try instead?
Try looking in the international section at your grocery store. European chocolate is bomb.
So... Nestle?
Well I just checked and nestle only owns a few European chocolate brands. There are tons that they don’t own so it would be really easy to just compare what your grocery store carries to the list of what nestle owns.
Nestle chocolate is horrible anyway, very easy to boycott the worst product on the shelf.
Try to find Fair Trade or chocolate that doesn't use palm oil. I eat chocolate as a treat so I buy the stuff that is a little more expensive from the Natural Food Section at Fred Meyer (Kroger). I'm not saying I am better than most, I just pick out chocolate that tastes better than the american cheese equivalent to chocolate. Cough * ^^herseys * Cough* *
edit: P.S. the hershey's thing is a personal opion. I just don't like it.
If you live near a Kroger with an organic section, there are usually some nice chocolate options there.
I'm in the UK. I've got some good leads from this post so I'll see how it goes.
Look up the Food Empowerment Project, they have an extensive list of chocolate brands and how they source their ingredients.
Check out organic grocery stores which are popping up everywhere. They lean more towards vegetarian and sustainable farming and meat practices and tend to have fair trade, enviromentally friendly chocolate. I buy bars that donate 10% of the proceeds to wildlife conservation. The chocolate is a bit more pricey but worth it.
I heard bad stuff about Nestlé but what you are saying is that they should not have send anything? Should have send twice? Should have send different product? Who paid for that, charity? Trying to understand what's the problem here.
are saying is that they should not have send anything?
That would've been better. Breast milk is produced as long as the mother is breastfeeding. By giving the mothers formula, Nestle made them stop breastfeeding and therefore also stop lactating. When the free formula runs out, the mothers are left with no milk of their own, a hungry baby, and no choice but to buy more formula.
Nestle sending free baby formula was not about helping anybody, it was about creating demand for their product. Kinda like a drug dealer who gives out a few free samples to get you hooked, then starts charging you exorbitant amounts because he knows you now have no choice.
aaaa ok now it make sense, thanks
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I like how you're demanding something you know perfectly well doesn't exist outside of internal Nestle documents that nobody who hasn't signed a War and Peace-sized NDA has access to while ignoring evidence right in front of your face, namely Nestle's subsequent actions. If the objective was to help, then surely Nestle would have attempted to remedy the situation once it became apparent their initial action actually did more harm than good. But they didn't. There are two possible motives for why they wouldn't attempt a remedy their failed attempt to help. Either they didn't give a damn, but in that case they wouldn't have attempted to help in the first place, or the result was actually what they wanted.
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Ah, so now you've abandoned "you don't know their motive" and moved on to "those mothers could've just thrown that formula away and kept breastfeeding". I wonder how far those goalposts are going to go. At this rate, I'd say possibly into orbit.
Breast milk is free. They gave the mothers enough free product to last until the mother stopped producing breast milk. Now the mothers have to pay for formula and mix it with dirty water to feed babies. The mothers can't afford formula so they use less than recommended, leading to malnutrition.
The mothers didn't need the formula. In most cases, their breastmilk was perfectly healthy and enough for the infants. The powdered formula actually increased health risks due, in part, to contaminated water. Nestle sent the formula to increase sales. The mothers would stop producing breastmilk and become reliant on the formula.
They didn't just send the formula. They sent representatives with them, dressed in white coats to give the impression they were medical professionals, and told them the formula was healthier for their babies.
It's truly evil what they did.
Speaking on terms of nestle, there’s only one side I’d support than the other, Japan nestle, but it’s still nestle
I’m still trying to find an alternative to their green tea kit kats
While you can boycot isn't it better to push authorities to do their thing? Its such a big company that you can't possibly hold all people working there responsible for what some did. Especially seeing that they make so much and have different divisions in each country.
And if they try to bury the story, make sure it doesn't happen. I feel that makes more of a statement than simply not buying stuff. Spreading truth is more important imo and it actually hurts them in the long run.
As a Michigan resident I can happily say fuck nestle and everything they are doing to our state
Easier said than done. They're an enormous company, selling many brands that aren't always clearly marked.
and much much more are all owned by Nestle.
edit: formtatting
Does it make me a terrible person that I'm more bothered by the dog thing?
Be bothered by both! If the dog thing is bothers you most, that's just you. But we should all at least be bothered by everything they do.
Vote, and have a care about who you vote for. Don't just put your vote for the guy of your leaning, look up the programs before, take at least an hour to compare everyone's and make an informed decisions. When more people vote intelligently, things are better. When less people votes, we leave the most important decisions to the most radicalized folks, and that's who the politics will start pandering to. Vote.
Omg I used to work with a guy who “didn’t vote cos it made no difference to his life”. Every SINGLE time he complained about anything I’d tell him it was political. Bus was late cos of roadworks? Politics. Can’t buy alcohol certain times/places? Politics. He was annoyed about paying a certain tax? Definitely politics! People think voting is irrelevant because they don’t understand it. I mean I would’ve voted the opposite way to him in every single election, but I just think if you don’t contribute you forfeit your right to complain about the consequences, and that’s almost reason enough for me.
Well to be fair, the choice (as far as presidential elections go) is voting for a carbon copy of the same person that's currently in office, another carbon copy that claims to be different, or a third party for actual change but with very little chance of winning.
My European friends (at least Northwestern European ones) report much less aggravation and hopelessness like this because their system is structured so that you're not always having to make these mathematical strategic decisions that ultimately come down to just voting for who terrifies you least.
America has a clunky, outdated electoral system, IMO. When it was one of the first in the world it was impressive, but in my opinion other countries have picked up our model and improved it. And we have a lot to learn from them.
We’re in the U.K. so it’s different, but not totally. It’s “same shit different day” for sure, but at least I want some say in who is screwing me over!
If you really believe that you are not pay attention.
Quite the contrary, I only noticed because I paid extra attention. And by noticed I just mean that someone else said it, and I was like "yeah right that's total bullshit" as the first thought in my head, but only an asshole would actually leave it at that without researching and hearing out the argument.
Turns out they were totally right. Not a single year in my lifetime (compared to the previous year) has government done anything other than get bigger, even though that's the opposite of the rhetoric that gets many candidates elected. Granted, both sides disagree about WHICH freedoms should be taken away, but that's a huge majority of what either side ever does.
I do vote, but he's not wrong...
And this point right here kinda gets to the main problem with u/GargamelLeNoir 's point - you can research all the candidates you want, but if you have a runny sack of diarrhea vs a large lump of asshole excising goodness, you're gonna be hard pressed to vote "for" something. And always voting "against the other" is why we're in this clusterfuck of a political shitstorm today.
You mitigate this problem by staying engaged in primary politics - the part of politics that, especially at the local level, doesn't get enough exposure.
I mean, you’re right but you’re also wrong. Pressuring to vote is only helping the flawed voting system survive for longer. It would actually be better if majority of voters passed invalid votes, but here we face the same issue as why people don’t vote for smaller parties.
Another problem is that you’re passing vote as if you were solving a binary problem, when there’s a whole plethora of problems packed in one vote. And since human rights are more important to me than economy, I basically can’t even vote for economical issues. I’m voting for whatever is packed with reasonable human treatment.
And interact with your representatives! Call, email, text, twitter, facebook. Go to town halls. If they don't have townhalls, find out why and raise awareness about it. It's your civic duty to be engaged.
...but if you're a clueless idiot, don't vote. If you are voting just because you're being told you should but aren't educated on the issues, then please stay home.
Then Democrat candidates would have no votes.
So what if instead of republican vs. democrats vs other, we have the people of the US vs a problem? Almost like we are one nation and should be working together. That would be nice.
Hey, stop with that focus on actual issues.
I know I know. We can dream right?
Yes that would be nice. One side has been trying to work together for decades.
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No I didn't, you said that.
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No that quote from Obama was to show the Democrats are the ones not cooperating & that's been for decades. In the 80's Reagan passed immigration reform, there was supposed to be some follow-up changes. Democrats never did it. Bush 41 made a compromise on a budget & raised taxes against his pledge "no new taxes", and became a 1 termer. Republicans worked with Clinton & there was a prosperous 90's. Bush 43 was blasted at every turn by Democrats, especially when he tried desperately to pass immigration reform. Obama & Democrats refuse to cooperate with Republicans on anything. Obama never once compromised. Trump was pleading for Democrats to come to a consensus on DACA, but they wouldn't even discuss it.
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I gave you some examples from Reagan to today. Before Reagan the Democrats controlled Congress with such a strong hand GOP Presidents had little they could do but follow the current.
So you're a self-proclaimed "independent"? Who'd you vote for in 2016? 2012? 2008? Or are you old enough yet?
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whatever.
Also: vote for what is best for your country, not what is best for you. So many people vote with their wallet (or think they are getting the best deal there) when it is obvious that many of the solutions to make your life cheaper end up being the other way around. Sure you can pull away money from healthcare, emergency services, oversight on people and companies following the rules, education and stuff like infrastructure but in 9/10 times that is gonna bite you in the arse.
And I'm not saying you should only vote for parties that are like "save the world" and whatnot, but at least look at how they are going to spend money, where is it coming from and whether that is a good idea in the long run. Closing the border for immigrants isn't a good idea if you have lots of folks going into pension and not enough people to pay for said pensions or healthcare that is getting more expensive the older people get. Rather support parties that improve the process of selection and integration to make sure you are still having a healthy big work force (which is a big problem in my country now that those baby boomers are stopping to work).
Also important: after voting, make sure the guy/girl you voted for is actually doing what you wanted him/her to do and is not messing things up. And if the people elected are doing what they have promised. Politics doesn't stop when you voted. Especially in times like these you need to be on the ball for it. And if they didn't do what they promised: stop voting for them. They can be held accountable you know. (Though it is harder with a 2 party system like in the US but even with more parties not something to be forgotten)
In another vein, don’t vote for expanded entitlement programs just because you don’t work. As someone in their 20’s working 60 hours a week after paying their way through college, I have zero respect for able bodied individuals who won’t work, yet vote to get more of my money every time it’s offered to them.
Its also why I'm opposed of basic income because all projects like that have failed because people lacked the incentive to do something more than what the government provided. Lets just get our priorities straight first and focus on keep finding new jobs so we don't need to do basic income. Space would be a great area to house lots of jobs for exploration, mining and whatnot.
Agreed, I think ubi would be disastrous for our development as a species.
That's great for the primaries, vote your conscience, vote for the person you love, vote for the person you think looks the best bu when it comes to elections you vote for the person who most closely represents to what you want. You don't have to like them, you don't have to love them but if you don't vote someone who doesn't come even close to what you want could win and you're screwed. Finally, they are not "all the same" and your vote does matter if you don't believe me ask Al Gore or Al Franken.
I kind of wish that voting was held on several different days. Presidential elections separated from senate/house elections separated from local elections separated from ballot measures.
I'd imagine several million people who vote in the Presidential election care only about that election and have put no real thought into and have done no research whatsoever on the other smaller races. These people will vote based on name recognition.
These people are the reason that it's nearly impossible to vote out any incumbents and the reason people wind up becoming lifetime politicians even if they consistently do a poor job. Really, it's part of the reason why the system seems so broken.
Local elections and ballot measure absolutely need to be on a separate day than senate, presidential, or gubernatorial elections. Leave the small, local races to those who actually care about the race rather than put it on the ballot with the big election.
In quite a few cities, local elections are held on their separate days for this reason. It's an extra cost with no benefit to the people further up the ticket, so that's why it's not more popular or widespread.
get rid of "straight ticket" voting.
This. Especially what you said about not voting for someone just because he's on the same end of the political spectrum. Being centrist or at least open to other ideas is so much better than being staunchly liberal or conservative or whatever.
can you absent when voting? our teacher told us once we can, but does it even make a difference?
Some thing I want to bring up is that in the 2018 election in the US, we had the worst voter turnout in years. My parents think it's because people thought "no way this dude is going to be president", but I think it's more because people didn't trust either side. Think about it: the Clinton's have a history of not fessing up to their mistakes, and Trump has proven to have broken an alarming amount of his promises. The most prominent example being "I'm not going to have time to go golfing"
Just know that Comcast has donated to both candidates, as has the banking industry. So both candidates will lie to you to get elected, but once elected, name bills 'Freedom from Internet Censorship' which completely censors the internet. Just as 'Pesky Dodd-Frank' will get rolled back because it hurt growth and jobs. Your vote is important, because it goes to show you how much lying people do to get elected, only to turn their backs on you and do whatever they want to get money from special interest groups and lobbies.
The best is the 'bare minimum' political thing, which right now is the gun violence debate. Let's outlaw one teensy tiny part of guns or a single gun itself. Like instead of making real change, and developing real mental illness and bullying strategies, let's outlaw one bumpstock and one gun, allowing other guns to be used next time. It doesn't stop the problem, it only makes politicians look like they are doing something when really they are doing nothing at all.
Well said.. It's important to vote FOR something, not AGAINST someone or something. When you vote against something, you really don't know what you're getting.
We did vote, and the DNC turned out to be rigged. Next suggestion please.
There are plenty of places where the __ primary is the election.
The Republican always wins this district. Republican primary = election. The Democrat always wins this seat. Democratic primary = election.
The problem I had with the last US presidential election is both candidates were just noxious. Clinton v. Trump was like deciding death by shooting versus stabbing.
I ultimately voted 3rd party, and Clinton won my state anyway, just like everyone knew she would, but I'm still not very happy about the choices.
People thinking and voting accordingly in both primaries would have been a very, very good thing for the country.
Being generous with our time, energy, resources and forgiveness.
Especially forgiveness.
And liberal with our oxford commas.
Currently unemployed, but always helping with babysitting and family business. It's nice having the time to do so.
This one seems like a horrible way to achieve your goals.
I guess that would depend on what your goals are.
No.
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As a corollary, also remember that opinions are not replacement for facts. You can disagree about what facts are true, but you can't have your own facts like you have your own opinions.
Right! Your opinions are totally valid. If you feel a certain way, who am I to tell you that you can't feel that way? But a disconnect between your opinion and factual evidence does not mean that the evidence is wrong.
Also, do not derail conversations with insults, memes, and jokes.
Engage the person you are disagreeing with because there are literally thousands of kids reading these threads that deserve an honest, intelligent, non-emotional answer.
As an addendum to this corollary, also remember that it is okay to refute something presented as "fact", if you have evidence to the contrary.
Blindly parroting "facts" (more common use would be statistics) that you have no real in-depth knowledge of because it agrees with your premise, does not actually further any intellectual discussion.
A slightly dated example:
A lot of the (early) catastrophic models for climate change relied on positive feedback models that had not been validated or proven in any respect. This sloppy, careless "science" is why we were warned and scorned about Manhattan being largely under water by the early-to-mid 2010s and that wound up being completely and utterly untrue.
Another:
The impacts of renewables on the grid is actually far more complex than simply replacing fossil fuel plants with solar cells and windmills. The power quality, intermittency, lack of efficient and large scale storage, and power delivery structure are significant burdens in any kind of shift to renewables, making them much more expensive in the near term than their dirtier alternatives. Additionally, the stuff that goes into creating those solar panels is actually pretty gnarly stuff from an environmental perspective, so, something to consider there.
That’s just like, your opinion, man.
—Lebowski
Bullshit
It's easy to get riled up over it since there is a human disconnect. Unless they have some kind of personality disorder, I imagine people wouldn't fly off the handle if they encountered that person in life.
Quit getting mad at the internet will save you a ton of stress.
...and they've got those different opinions because they arrived at them differently. They weren't privy to the same information, and just thought "fuck everybody else, I'm going to think the opposite". They overwhelmingly went to the same amount of trouble to get to their conclusion that you did to get to yours.
more importantly, even with most of the same information, your different ideologies can lead to different opinions.
Take crime rates for example. Some people see racial discrepancies as signs of inferiority, others as systemic bias, others as displays of necessity.
Rules for adulting:
It's ok for other people to be wrong.*
They might be right.
* Except on the internet. :p
Yeah but there's a fine line with regards to tolerance of intolerance. Many philosophers has proposed this actually enables the spread of things like racism etc. So rather than argue though, find ways to engage where you can understand why they believe this and find differing ways to make them see it from a broader perspective. Have an employee that hates illegals stealing jobs. Asked him why companies aren't the ones blamed as theyre more than happy to hire them. Most of the people who are being underpayed are doing it to survive or live a better life, the employers are taking advantage of that. He's since changed his views. Little by little, you can shift perceptions. Just the lesson should be learnt not to attack others.
Vice versa, not all opinions are created equal. I don't care if it's someone's opinion that homosexuality is not natural when their basis for that is religion. They can have that opinion, sure. But I will call it out at every opportunity.
And maybe, if it's not too much trouble, look into the issues you're angry about before getting so angry that you need to complain about it to everyone.
There's nothing worse (for other people) than hearing you complain about things loudly and righteously when it's pretty obvious you don't really know any more about the issue than the headline.
Exactly. Let people like what they like! See a group of people waiting an hour to get a donut? Don't make fun of them and go on some self righteous trip on how wrong they are. They like doing that. Let them like it without you (me) having a problem with it. That attitude is best for the world.
While I think this is really important, I still struggle with it. I found this helped: http://johnsalvatier.org/blog/2017/reality-has-a-surprising-amount-of-detail
Basically the idea that there's so much detail in the world it's difficult for two people to form their opinions the same way, even if the details they base them on are all true.
This is extremely important and overlooked!
Your comment adds nothing to the convo why even make it
I appreciate your opinion and view and wish you well internet stranger :-D
Ill suplex your grandmother and piledrive your sister
Hey, we've played rocket league together!
How are ya bud?
Lol
Oh man, the instant feedback loop and the desire to have the first "hot take" on something have really negatively affected public discourse.
With most things, you really even don't need to HAVE an opinion. Is the thing in question hurting anybody else? No? Then, you literally don't need to say anything about it.
So what, we're just supposed to leave it to the government to let celebrities know when their makeup is busted?
Also, don't assume that people are acting in bad faith. You may disagree with their choices, but they are not secretly agreeing with you but publicly disagreeing just to be an asshole. They came to their conclusions and honestly believe them.
This is not always true, but often enough that it's not a bad place to start.
Not all opinions are created equal. I think it's OK to simply ignore flat earther nonsense, for example.
Flat Earth is not an opinion, it's a fact claim that happens to be false
Does this also apply for "hateful" opinions? Such as "all women are bitches", or "men are trash"?
Also, recognize that these different opinions often come from completely different perspectives on something, not support of the things you dislike.
I would have to say maintaining a healthy diet. It's so easy to get caught up eating fast food/ processed food and then people wonder why they are constantly feeling bad and visiting the doctor. Including more fruits and vegetables into your diet can do wonders for the body. Staying away from sugar and high fructose corn syrup is a great way to start. You'd be surprised how much sugar is in products that it shouldn't necessarily be there (I.e. Bottled Spaghetti sauce for one example). Just because you don't have health problems now doesn't mean that you are healthy! It can and will catch up to you if an effort is not made.
Oh god damn you. Now I am going home to check my spaghetti. Chances are you will be correct and now I gotta make my own sauce.
If you're making your own sauce, you might actually want to add sugar. It cuts down on the acidity.
I roughly chop a carrot and throw it in while the sauce is cooking. I'm not sure of the exact mechanism by which it works, but it helps with acidity.
Carrots are very sweet and have a relatively high sugar content, so it's basically doing the same thing as adding sugar, but probably in a more healthy way.
There are a few really great jarred sauces that are sugar-free. I like Rao's (their arrabiata is worth the tear-inducing price), Victoria's White Linen Marinara, and Whole Foods 365 marinara.
I love adding a teaspoon or two of honey, cuts the acidity and I find it helps the sauce stick a bit better (but that could be utter bollocks haha)
Very true, but you can just add a bit of sugar. Also, I don't want to start an argument about the health effects of substitutes like stevia/sucralose, but I use sucralose. (Splenda) in things like spaghetti sauce. It works great for me.
you'll thank yourself. personally i hate jarred sauces because they're all so damn sweet. i only make my own sauce. when it's tomato season i make a whole bunch and jar it for the winter.
I cook, but I don't have time to make my own sauce.
*before you chime in to say how easy it is. Full-time work, school and single.
That’s ok, not everyone has to be Martha Fuckin Stewart. The thirty seconds to thoughtfully read a label may be a better investment of your time is a lot easier to spare.
THANK YOU SO MUCH! I fully expected someone to respond saying just how easy it is to make your own sauce and somehow I must suck because it's not a priority to me atm.
And this is much easier if you learn how to read and understand the labels on the package, and make it a habit when shopping for groceries. It is the easiest way to figure out if your pasta sauce contains a large amount of sugar or not.
I think this falls under the same category - stop eating animals! Do your own research on factory farming and make your own decision if it's ethical.
how is this ethical
Negative externalities. The more unhealthy people there are, the higher everyone's insurance premiums get, even the people who have been taking care of themselves. Getting medical treatment uses public and environmental resources.
Bad health habits have a large negative impact on the world and on your community.
When you take care of your own health, you naturally become a better asset to your community. When you're tired and miserable all the time, you retreat into a more selfish state.
Right this minute, I'm drinking straight hard liquor to avoid those unhealthy corn syrups and sugars! plugs ears before you can talk about the health effects of alcohol.
I tried quitting sugar once. I made it 3 days before I almost blacked out walking back to my apartment. I've never experienced detox from alcohol or hard drugs but I imagine that's what it was like. Sweats, migraine, fatigue, shaking, near blackout.
Not sure if you’re saying you were detoxing from quitting sugar but those are literally the symptoms for low blood sugar...
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Whole wheat is high in fiber and is arguably healthy for you. Garbage carbs, like sugars, are not.
And to extend this, 'garbage sugars' DO NOT include fruits!
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Recycling. The amount of big businesses that don’t recycle is actually disturbing. Small homes as well. It doesn’t take a lot of time or energy and for the sake of the planet, why not?
What broke my heart is I once saw the cleaning crew at my university empty the recycling can into the normal trash. Also once at work my boss told me to do this with an overflowing recycling can and I refused.
If you're not in a big city, there's not a lot of places near to recycle except maybe a recycling bin at work or a school water bottle container. How would you recommend those with worse recycling options to start? (Genuine question, not rhetoric)
I worked at Nordstrom and one of the reasons I quit was because at my store they would mix the regular recycling (soooo many plastic garment bags, packaging, etc) with the trash. It was the most wasteful place and it made me sick.
maybe this is short-sighted in some way, but I feel it should be against the law not to recycle. Further, it should be against the law for a town to not provide recycling services, even if it means an extra tax for the people needs to be put in place in order to get that service up and running.
To build on this, Reduce > recycle
Literally everyone I know recycles.
We really need to spread the concept of recycling to the rest of the world. You go to Asia, and people literally laugh at the concept. It is no coincidence that the south-west Pacific is the dirtiest ocean on Earth.
Recycling is often worse for the planet than burying it.
I stopped using straws about a year ago. To be perfectly honest, I did so to prevent development of Old Lady Mouth, but I was pleased to find out that avoiding straws is a good thing to do for the marine environment.
There’s also like glass straws or something, really durable, something to look into if you ever wanna keep one in your car
pretty sure those are crackpipes.
Things can have more than one purpose like aluminum foil, or soda cans
good point. i've used both of those to smoke crack.
We use them for dabs if u don’t wanna drop the cash on a rig or pen or nectar collector
* spits out water through gnarly chompers and chapped lips *
* twitch *
Yea I want one, and this is the reason why I don't have one. If I get stopped, I'm goin to jail. It could be fresh in the container having never been opened, I'm goin to jail.
r u black or something?
DWB my friend, DWB.
Don’t leave it in plain sight and don’t consent to a search and don’t break more than one law at once and you’re Gucci
I've seen metal straws and reusable silicone straws. Not to mention there are single-use paper straws that are way better for the environment.
And reusable bamboo ones
Ooo a bamboo straw sounds classy. Do want.
Seems like they go for about $15 for a dozen on Amazon!
Or you could just grab some bamboo, cut it into straw-length sections, and let it dry.
(At least in my area -- the southeastern US -- bamboo is an invasive species that can often be found growing in vacant lots.)
Even more sustainable and ethical! Though not practical for everyone since bamboo isn't found everywhere
Bamboo ia really easy to grow and it grows really fast so buying a plant for your house and making straws with it is even better
You can get metal ones online. They make great campfire bellows.
Dude, silicone straws! Soft, durable, super great even for the drunkest of idiots. Can attest, as a drunken idiot, that they are not hurting my teeth!
Walmart had stainless steel straws, which come with a brush to clean. Hard material like glass, steel etc is a little dangerous to use in the car. My car hit a bump, and the straw went right into the edge of my gums. There was some bleeding and it hurt a lot.
Try a silicone straw
silicone straw
I didn't know of this! Thanks!
Yeah, there's this terrible video of some people on a boat rescuing a sea turtle that I saw on Facebook a few years ago. The turtle had a straw stuck in its nose, and they people were holding it down and trying to pull it out while the turtle was CRYING. I watched this at like 1 am and couldn't fall asleep after that. It stuck with me.
That is actually the reason why I bought and now use reusable straws. That video really got to me. I'm sad just thinking about it.
Me too. I'll never use another plastic straw ever again after that.
I thought that happened from smoking. Like chemicals and shit. Not the physical act of gripping a cigarette with your lips. Makes sense
I think it's the same as laugh lines: your wrinkles start from where you have your most frequent creases. If you're always smiling, there ya go! Always frowning, you get that sad old-person look. Always sucking on something - like a cigarette - and you get those granny blowjob lips. Plus smoking's supposed to dry your skin out, so that specifically would add to it (in comparison to only using a straw).
I look forward to having smile and laugh lines someday if that’s the consequence of joyfulness.
But according to my dentist, anyway, it's bad for your teeth. Straws apparently reduce the amount of contact your teeth have with sugary drinks. So there's that....
Water FTW!
Eew... Fish pee in that.
They fuck in it, too!
Man I just tryna drink, not get turned on
They're not the only ones ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Fucking disgusting!
No thanks, I'm trying to quit.
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Oh, shit. Thanks for the tip, dude. I fucking dodged a bullet there.
Like... Out the toilet?
It's got what plants crave.
Electrolytes!
Black coffee please.
I count that as water.
But not plastic water bottles!
GATORAAAAAADE...
Use a non-disposable straw! I use stainless steel and they work very well.
how do you keep it clean? You take it with you if you're out?
The bamboo straw I have came with a brush to clean it. And yeah, I keep it in my bag
I have like 4 of them, they came with a little brush to clean them with. I carry my fake-yeti daily with my straw, so it sees me through the work day. If I'm going out to eat for dinner, I use disposable.
Or you could just reduce the number of sugary drinks you have?
Now you're just talking gibberish.
Let's try to be reasonable, here.
Yeah, my dentists don't even mention straws. When I was drinking too much pop they just told to stop it.
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It depends on your dialect. All regional variants are completely valid.
You're right, I'm only joking.
However, the Midwestern term "pop" is the only acceptable one.
Again I'm just kidding. But seriously. 🤣
To my australian ears anything but "soft drink" or "fizzy drink" sounds wrong.
In Texas they are all called Coke. But what we really want when we say we want a Coke is a Dr. Pepper.
Realistically I'm looking for actions which will have no negative impact on me, and a positive impact on the environment.
I have to use a straw cold drinks hurt my teeth. :(
Get a reusable straw then
Sensodyne! Helps sometimes. Really try it out.
...How does reducing the amount of sugary drinks you have negate a straw? You still have it contacting your teeth and a straw would still serve the same purpose if you used one.
If I buy the 64 oz cup of cola instead of 6 10 oz cups of cola then I save the environment
You can buy resuable straws! I have some steel ones, or you can also find glass, silicone or bamboo. I have one in my handbag at all times, along with a fork, so I never need to use single use plastic cutlery or straws. A waitress at a bar complemented me on the straws last week :)
Sounds like a potentially awesome idea. I'll have to look into the stainless steel ones.
I keep an ice pick in my back pocket just in case I need to um, break up some ice blocks.
There are reusable straws. I have a friend who always carries one in her purse.
Then buy reusable metal straws.
My sister got a set of reusable metal straws. Problem solved.
Interesting. My childhood dentist told my mom to not let me use straws because they were causing more contact with the sugary drinks. I think he was probably wrong though because I rarely used straws and when I drink without a straw I tend to swish it between my cheek and through my top teeth on one side. The side with the most dental work done...
You can buy reusable straws
It depends on how people drink. I'm sure the reason dentists are against straws is because some people drink through them with their teeth closed, causing all the liquid to spray your teeth with every sip. I tend to drink with my teeth open when using a straw, so I don't hear much from my dentist about it.
They sell stainless steel straws on amazon if you're that worried about it.
Buy reusable straws. Keeps some in the car for drive thrus and take some in when dining in. They go for like a buck each in packs on amazon
you can get metal/reusable straws
I think its more about direct acid erosion than sugar contact, which is an issue even with nonsweetened drinks; sports drinks, sparkling water, fruit juices, etc
Metal straw?
Soda always come in a disposable container and is terrible for your health. I would rarely if ever drinking it.
I've heard this, but I don't believe it. When I drink, it doesn't go from the straw to the back of my throat. Likewise, when I take a drink from a cup, I'm not dumping it out onto my teeth, it hits my upper lip slightly and slides back onto my tongue. The amount of contact it has with my teeth depends entirely on how much I want to swirl it around and savor it.
A lot of people, when sipping something don't have their mouths fully open, so you get a bit more contact with the front part of your teeth, whereas the contact is lessened with the visible front-facing part of your teeth by using straws.
Straws are actually recyclable in many jurisdictions. Not saying you should be using them, of course, but if you do, this helps.
wow....I see how it is
Metal straws.
Many restaraunts in the Detroit area use compostable straws!
Straws work by creating a slight vacuum in your mouth. The difference between that and atmospheric pressure pushing down on the drink/shake then pushes the stuff up into your mouth. This is also why the plastic lid on your cup can't be air tight or it won't work.
So you don't need to pucker to use a straw. Just use your lungs/tongue to create a vacuum in your mouth and the liquid will come up. Puckering neither helps nor hurts the process -- it's purely personal choice.
Puckering will keep your lipstick from rubbing off on the straw. :) Now you're just gripping with the inside of your lips, not the surface where the colour you want to keep wearing is.
Ah. I've never tried to drink through a straw while wearing lipstick.
No worries! It's one of those things you don't realize is a pretty handy tip until you're doing the thing you need the tip for. :D
Botox my friend.
This is a big one that most people don’t think about!
Oh god, yes, the turtle video. :'(
Better yet: don't throw your straws in the gosh danged ocean.
I mean, even if you use straws just buy one of those single ones that you can use for years.
In /r/JUSTNOMIL, we call that the CBF or Cat Butt Face
just put the straw deeper into your mouth so it rests against the roof of your mouth
I stopped using straws for the same vain reason but I do use them for soda on the rare occasion that I imbibe so I can preserve my front teeth.
How many straws were you using to get that?
People often say that "This is the last straw" but like 1hour after what so we see? Them drinking with one...
I struggle with straws (from a vanity standpoint; I KNOW they are bad for the planet). I worry about wrinkle mouth but it also prevents my teeth from staining. I’m going to stop using straws but dammit why is everything bad in an either/or fashion?!?
Also, turns out starws are actually kind of bad for your digestive tract as well. They cause you to swallow a lot more air thus causing gases in bloating.
Not standing so close behind someone in a queue that you're fucking brushing against them.
I get so triggered by this. Alternatively when I'm waiting in line I give the person in front of me plenty of room. The person behind me usually has the nerve to ask me if I'm moving up...then I have to give them a lecture on why I'm giving space.
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Yes! This is me.
this is highly cultural. and trending the wrong way im sorry
or look on the bright side; less stigma of human contact!
Somehow there's always some guy who thinks that tailgating makes the line move faster. It just makes the line less pleasant.
I also like when someone has to be like five feet off my back bumper on the interstate, like doing so will make the semi in front of me go faster. I mean, they can see that big, boxy trailer in front of me, right?
No, no they can't. If they could expand their view of the world that much they wouldn't be acting that way.
So I was in BJ's the other day (warehouse store for those that don't know...like a Sam's Club) and I'm there at the checkout and the guy is scanning my stuff in the basket. I pushed the basket up so the guy didn't have to move and was right next to his p.o.s. system so he could do what he needed.
(I apologize ahead of time for what I'm about to call her, if you fit this category, please watch yourself and don't be this)
This blonde, all in pink, Lululemon legging wearing, drives a BMW minivan lookin bitch on a cell phone pulls her cart with like 8 things and 3 kids in it, so far up close to my cart she's blocking me from both getting behind my cart AND blocking the little machine that you pay on. Every time I move the cart a little bit, she moves up more.
So I look at this woman in her face and say "if you want to keep inchin up you can pay for my shit and yours. Otherwise you need to back the fuck up lady".
She just gets this "well I never!" expression on her face and proceeds to back up a bit. I can tell she wanted to say something but she didn't. I hate it when people do this, and I hate it when people violate my personal space unnecessarily. I am the nicest person in the world otherwise, but I will make you back the fuck up off me.
Not really related but the twelve year old in me snickers a little bit whenever someone calls a point of sale a "pos".
Not going to lie, your description of the lady got me a little aroused. That's like my exact target demographic for funtimes.
I get where you're coming from and certainly agree that I prefer some space, but keep in mind that this is very much a cultural thing. In many parts of the world it's considered polite to pack in tightly to let more people fit in.
This is a trigger for many military veterans. It is part of their training. When learning to march, they space themselves an arm's length from each other. It is ingrained in other ways, too. It is clear that they all respect each others' personal space. Not to mention, there a lot of Alpha types in the Army and Marines, so it is in everyone's best interests to give each other space.
When they returned to the civilian world, being crowded in public spaces makes them nervous and they often feel the other person is disrespectful or rude. It is yet another reason they avoid public spaces and many tend to isolate.
Waiting in line for a ride at Disneyland, there is ALWAYS some foreign family literally bumping into me, despite having the ability to leave room each time the line moves a little forward. But no, every time the line moves up, they are right back on my ass again.
Perfect time to cut the cheese
It's funny that you mention this..
About a week ago I was waiting for the train and realized I was too close to the guy in front of me in the line. So I looked back and since I saw noone I took a step back.
For a split of a second I thought I was falling to my death on the train tracks. Turns out some guy was sitting on the floor so close to me I didn't see him when I looked back.
I just tripped with him but it seemed like I was about to die right there.
Rubbings racing!
i tut so loudly when people do this
It's like people think by being physically closer to the front it's going to go faster. Like, there are still the same amount of people in line
To add to this, if you don't know my first name you shouldn't be touching me.
Same with driving.
Leaving more space in between the car in front of you can and will help traffic move faster, but it's also much better for your fuel economy if you can just coast instead of braking then accelerating again.
Omfg, I was at McDonald's on my lunch. I'm waiting with space between me and the lady ahead of me. Some lady comes in with her grandson and stands less than a foot from me. I looked over at her (very noticeably) and took a step away. She instinctively moves into the space I just occupied. When I'm ordering, she's right next to me so I step a little to the side of the till. As I'm paying and getting change, she is now directly infront of the till and the employee is moving over to give me my change. What the fuck dude.
Well, to be fair, if you're a hot blonde lady in yoga pants I will make an exception. For some reason it's always an indian guy missing half his teeth who's eaten nothing but concentrated garlic paste for the last twenty years pushing against me.
We gotta stop eating animals. One day people will look back at these times and we'll seem like cannibals. At the very least, just as we look back in disbelief at slave owners and think how backwards that is.
ok?
this is highly cultural. and trending the wrong way im sorry
or look on the bright side; less stigma of human contact!
Absolutely. There has been research on this. It is mostly related to population density. Higher density, less personal space. Also, population density relates to the speed with which people talk, iirc. Higher density -> faster speech and more likely to talk over each other.
interesting! i guess i knew about the talking thing but hadn't made that connection. also related to personal space when conversing I'm sure, eg italian speaking to swede
Erm I happen to like fuck brushing people.
Make a conscious effort to recycle. Please don't just throw it in the trash.
My wife suffers a few significant mental health issues. She makes no effort to hide them, and often tells people she's "crazy." She also works very hard every day to improve herself. She acknowledges every time she makes a mistake and looks for ways to avoid repeating them. She's been doing this for the entire 24 years we've been married.
She drives me crazy too sometimes, but she's also my role model. I do not have any clinical mental health issues (that I'm aware of), but I know I could be a far better person if I made half the effort my wife does.
So in answer to OP's question I would say we should all continually evaluate our beliefs, behavior, and attitudes and look for ways to be better human beings.
Don't act as if you're the only person in the world and that the world would be yours.
For example I never understand why people throw away trash on the ground instead of taking those couple of steps and throwing it into the trash bin.
I always see people tossing cigarette butts after smoking, and it's so disgusting and rude.
Don't ride elephants
Can I add: Don't pet/take a picture with large cat cubs? It seems like it's the same idea, just a different animal.
Tiger temples are the worst. The reason the cats don’t maul you is they are drugged up to the eyeballs.
God I want me some of those tiger drugs.
Please please don’t.
And don’t swim with dolphins.
And don’t go to seaworld.
Be wary of places that let you hang out with wild animals.
Can’t believe how low this one is - although I suppose it doesn’t come up much in every-day life! While travelling round places where elephants live, I also tried to not book tours (like book a bus or to a “tourist attraction”) with companies that also offer elephant-riding tours. I wish I could write to them and say “I went with your competitor because you shouldn’t offer that service” but it seems a bit shitty/unnecessary! It’s great that western tourists have switched on to this but sadly there’s a lot of money from new tourism from other nations (I’m thinking of Chinese here, for example) who love the idea of riding elephants 😒
Does not hurt to let them know why. A lot of companies have stopped offering tours with elephant riding because of the backlash.
Yeah you’re right, in a place where there’s so much competition then they should know what makes them stand out. Thing is, when cheap western backpackers aren’t interested that’s not so much of a big deal but the big money is with Chinese/Japanese/Korean tourists, so they probably make way more money by offering those tours than not 😒
I never considered riding an elephant until now. Now I have this urge...
it's unethical because they abuse the elephants, there are elephant sanctuaries you can go to though where you can feed and bathe them. I would recommend that instead.
I'm planning a trip to a sanctuary where they have this!
I went to one in Chiang Mai, it was one of my favorite parts of my travels! I would definately go again. Also it turns out elephants think we're cute :D
I saw that blurb! Like the way we chemically emotionally respond to Puppies!
There was no proof for that stupid post.. just some random shit and it went viral..
thanks captain no fun
Was just pointing out the shit on social media man. I saw that stupid link too and felt nice.. But if it is not true, no point in spreading the false info, you know.
OTOH, I think you are cute so doncha worry! :)
Fair enough, sorry I may have overreacted to elephants not thinking we're cute :D
No problem bro. Lately even I have been too defensive about news sources and found many to be fake. Too many bamboozles since the last elections :/
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This was a beautiful story. Of course he was an LSU grad too
They say elephants remember. I guess he only remembered the pain.
I got to feed a mama and baby Giraffe. It was so cool. I pet the mom and gave her carrots and shit. The baby was taller than me.
...but I went to a sanctuary and they let us ride them.
Then its not a real sanctuary. There are a ton popping up labeling themselves as "sanctuaries" that still abuse the animals. There are only a handful that don't offer riding.
ok, but the riding itself is not abusive, so I don't know how people are supposed to tell the difference.
From what I understand, their backs/necks are not built to hold the weight of riders. Unlike horses and camels. So yes, riding itself can be abusive. Plus how they are broken in order to withstand riding is a horrible process. The best thing to do is just not ride them and to not go to that offer elephant riding.
They are way way way stronger than horses, and you don't sit on their back or neck, you sit on their shoulders. I really felt like a leaf on the thing.
I can't speak to it being broken in, but I suspect if they do it like horses, they just tie gradually larger bags of rice to their backs until they get used to the weight.
Here is a good article outlining the process of how elephants are broken in. Its nothing like breaking in a horse. https://www.thailandelephants.org/the-ugly
Too late I was like 7 when I did.
eh who would want to. It looks bumpy up there. plus elephants are huge so i'd think it'd grab me w/it's trunk and stuff me into his mouth. scary
w h a t
Eat less meat.
I'm not trying to be all vegan holy man here - meat tastes great and has nutrients it can be hard to get from non-animal sources. Yay. At the same time, though, livestock farming is both directly and indirectly responsible for a huge amount of environmental degradation and contributes to the evolution of antibiotic-resistant bacteria, which impact quality of life even if you don't give a shit about climate change.
I really wish I was seeing more “eat less meat” at least, comments on an ethics post. Even if it’s just eating less meat and dairy that’s a pretty good step ethically.
Was going to post this if it wasn't here already. People also forget how much land and resources go into the livestock industry. Eating more veggies and less meat is actually a lot better for the environment.
Not to mention that most livestock animals are miserable and in pain most of their lives. If we're talking ethical choices, avoiding factory farmed meat is a no-brainer.
I’d like to take a second to plug Michael Pollans book “Omnivores Dilemma”. He does a fantastic job of breaking down how the food we eat gets made.
I'm a pretty devoted carnivore but if lab-created meat becomes a thing anytime soon I will gladly embrace it
Consider trying the already available mock meats.
There are a ton available, chances are atleast one of them will be a favorite of yours. Most stores have them now including stuff like Walmart/publix etc... TGIF has the beyond burger along with many other burger places.
Gardein, tofurkey, field roast, yves, beyond meat... etc
I do like the Morningstar Farms frozen stuff that I've tried.
The Beyond Meat burgers are life changing. Even people I know who eat meat say it’s one of the best burgers they’ve ever had
Thx! I'll give em a try.
Try Tofurky sausages or Field Roast sausages if you see them. And if you find anything by Gardein, try it, because Gardein is unreal.
That’s awesome! Unfortunately they are vegetarian, but I can assure you that if you like their stuff you’ll enjoy the others. Notably Gardein, they have similar flavors while still being totally vegan.
Morningstar does have SOME vegan products however
Keep hearing good stuff about Gardein. Thx
The ones that try to still taste like meat fail completely. Black bean or mushroom burger patties are usually fine because they satisfy a similar craving for savory and weighty core to the sandwich as a meat burger patty does, but I've hated every mock meat.
look up Beyond Meat and Impossible Burger, they're both pretty good for fake meat
Consider trying the already available mock meats.
I have 0 interest in eating mock meat. I'll eat lab grown meat all day.
I think youd like if it your tried it. There is a lot of unwarranted negative stigma around the mock meats.
Most of my family and friends aren’t vegan and they’ve all had similar attitudes as you until they actually try it.
That's too bad. The Impossible Burger is heavenly. You're missing out.
im a pretty devoted vegan but if lab-created meat becomes a thing anytime soon I will gladly embrace it
This is more nuanced in reality. Chicken (depending on the feed and location) is a very efficient way to consume protein. There are always trade offs, like some food takes way too much water per gram of protein, some takes a lot of land. What is the impact on your area?
You're generally correct that meat is "worse"... But that's not hard and fast.
In terms of caloric intake, meat will always be a trophic level or two above grains or vegetables, meaning they will always be a significant reduction in efficiency.
Take your chicken example. Their feed consists of grain mixed with soy in order to generate a high-protein meal for the chickens to grow (Feed is something like 16-19% protein). Then there's the fact that the average US slaughter age of chickens is 6-7 weeks, at a weight of 2.6kg. Plus, meat chickens require about 4kg of feed per week according to Manitoba's agriculture page , and we can caulculate just how much protein is required for chickens to grow.
4kg * 16% * 6 weeks = 3.8kg.
Your 2.6kg chicken requires 3.8kg of protein to grow to full size. And around 24kg of grains and soy.
The problem with growing animals at the rate we do is that around 80% of antibiotics are fed to them and make farms superbug breeding grounds. Growing beans is also a very effective way to get protein without salmonella risk.
Kinda throwing out the baby with the bathwater, no? The logical measure is to outlaw feeding antibiotics to livestock and we can debate the other unrelated things separately.
Agree completely.
Very little of the land and resources currently dedicated to livestock could directly contribute to a meat-free world. There's a ton of land that is good for raising livestock - and that's it.
Yadda yadda yadda, citations needed and such, yes, but it's not as cut and dry as most people think.
People also forget how much land and resources go into the livestock industry.
True, but very little of the land and resources currently dedicated to livestock could directly contribute to a meat-free world. There's a ton of land that is good for raising livestock - and that's it.
Yadda yadda yadda, citations needed and such, yes, but it's not as cut and dry as most people think.
It's not, but the assumption your making is we have to use this land for food because it needs to be replaced at the same rate - it doesn't.
Plants based foods require significantly less land and water due to the massive amounts of energy lost in the conversion from grain to animal. For example, 1 hectar of land produces 0.3 tones of beef, but 7.5 tones of wheat grain. You can make simple calculations to get an idea of how much less land and water you need - a more comprhesive study a few years back based on the US suggested around ~80% less land use (can't recall precisely) for vegan diets.
As you said it's not quite that simple, but it is certainly a more ethical, sustainable and more environmentally friendly option for 99% of us on reddit.
It's also established that U.S. farmers are often subsidized by the federal government to either destroy massive amounts of crops, or just not grow them in the first place. It's not as if the U.S., in this example, is running out of space to grow crops because of over-use by livestock.
Livestock grazing also takes advantage of huge areas of land where growing plants for human consumption would be logistically or biologically impossible, or cost-prohibitive, or both. Cows and goats and sheep will eat rough, fibrous weeds & grasses that humans have little use for in any capacity.
I don't know enough about modern agriculture to know how well it matches up the right land for the right use, but I'd guess that like any industry there's significant room for improvement.
You are making the mistake of only considering the ground upon which the animals are standing. You would have to consider all the land dedicated to growing food for these animals - which is, by definition, fit for growing plant crops.
Sonic just recently added a blended mushroom burger to their menu, and I gotta say it sounds really good. It replaces 25% of the beef with mushrooms, which if this were to catch on would really add up in terms of reducing the amount of meat consumed. Unlike other schemes I've heard to do that, this sounds delicious. I'm looking forward to trying it :)
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The best burger I've ever had was a black bean burger at some restaurant. It had some corn and some chopped peppers and onions in it I think. So good. If more people tried them, I bet they'd become much more popular.
The best one I've ever had was from Costco. They held together well and they're fucking tasty.
Same vein, one of the better BLTs I've had was a vegetarian one that used Tempeh over bacon.
That is a morningstar Farms product known as a "spicy black bean burger" man, cook some onions and put a patty with cheese on rye bread. The best patty melt ever. I am recently mostly vegetarian to cut down my cholesterol. And I love those things man.
I'm just going to throw this out here: alternative burgers are way better than a lot of people are willing to admit. Black bean burgers are incredible, but I'll also suggest burgers made from sweet potato, quinoa, and lentils. They can be customized as you'd like, but man they always turn out great.
A local restaurant in my town makes a vegan burger by replacing the meat with a fried portabella cap. It's delicious.
Can't believe I forgot those. Portobello burgers are absolutely delicious, and a whole lot simpler than the others I mentioned.
Yes! Quinoa Burgers are simply AMAZING. Took a chance on one at a vegan restaurant. Was pretty skeptical, but my god it was good and by far the healthiest burger I've had, better tasting than other veggie burgers.
alternative burgers are way better than a lot of people are willing to admit
A lot of them are downright delicious, but the reason people think they're bad is that the expectations they go in with are wildly different than the actual product. A lot of people go in thinking "it's an alternative to beef, so it should taste like beef," and when it doesn't, they consider it bad.
If they weren't treated/marketed as meat alternatives, and instead sold on their own merit, I think they'd be a lot more popular.
I agree, but I think the association will be hard to break for people. Hopefully good word of mouth can keep pushing people to expand their palate and try new things. But as long as they are made and served like a normal hamburger, breaking that thought process will be tough.
Would you happen to have a good recipe for this type of burger? It sounds delicious, but I've never seen burgers like this in Ireland.
Here's a copycat recipe I haven't tested. there's on ingredient you might have to order online, the Chipotle peppers in adobo sauce, but you may be able to Google up a substitute.
:D Thank you. I look forward to attempting that. Is it 'chipotle peppers in adobo sauce' actual peppers? Or is it a pepper sauce, like this? https://www.tesco.ie/groceries/Product/Details/?id=266990826
Here's a site with some suggested substitutes.
I really like this black bean and brown rice burger recipe.
See, beans have this little side effect...
When you eat lots of legumes and fibrous veggies, your system adjusts and the farts level back out to a more normal frequency.
Also, rinse your canned beans, and rinse dried beans after soaking but before cooking, and it will significantly reduce gassiness.
This. I started eating a lot of beans and lentils about a year ago as a good dairy/meat/soy-free protein source. I had quite a bit of bloating and some gas the first month or so, but I don't notice many issues with eating beans after that. "Bean-zyme" works pretty well too.
Oh, where does the required alpha-galactosidase come from? I’m sure the vegetarians I work with would love to know.
If beans aren't your thing try a mushroom burger. It's like. Burger, but you replace the beef with a fried portabella cap. It's delicious.
I have no problems eating vegetarian, but when I want a burger I'm going to get beef. Having said that, the impossible foods burger is almost indistinguishable. I'll have one of those anytime.
I think calling something other than a burger would help, since it's not a burger. A burger is a beef patty. Call it a black bean sandwich or a black bean patty and my mind instantly accepts it easier.
No, a Burger is a city-dweller. Check your anglophone privilege brosephina
Not in Burgerland.
Even moreso there
Hahaha
Yes, the origin of "burger" comes from hamburger, but it's since evolved to include other meats (chicken, turkey) and non-meats (black bean, etc) formed into a similar shape and assembled with similar ingredients (bun, veggie toppings, sauces, etc). If you want to put your foot down and say it should only refer to beef, that's all well and great, but the rest of the world left you behind a long time ago. Word meanings change over time depending on common usage; that's simply a fact of language.
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Yes, hence the upstate New York regional dialect's usage of 'steamed ham.'
I didn't mention anything about ham, but you're right, that is the origin of the term hamburger. I'm no professional expert of the lexicon but I think the etymology probably followed something like:
Hamburg (city in Germany) -> Hamburg steak (ground beef patty dish w/o bun claimed to have originated there and brought to America) -> hamburger (the ground beef-patty sandwich influenced by hamburger steak -> burger (any sandwich assembled similarly to the original hamburger with meat and/or bun substitutions being acceptable).
Relevant username...
If you need help, try the Hypocrite Burger, black bean patty with bacon.
Ground seitan is also great to mix in with your ground beef (or replace completely.) It's super cheap and fun to make.
Mmmm, rubbery off tasting wheat gluten.
Don't knock it. There are tons of ways to make it. If you had one version of it and it was rubbery, that's no reason to think that it has to be that way.
to be fair, it's exactly one reason to think that
Using one experience with a tiny part of something this varied to make a conclusion about it as a whole is pretty much the definition of a hasty generalization.
It's like trying a fast food version of something and deciding you hate it. My fiance does this and it drives me up the walls, because several of them he's tried homemade or high quality versions and loved it, but because he always just thinks back to the bad fast food version, he swears he hates it.
Edit: Tofu. Tofu is a huge culprit for this. A lot of people try it for the first time at, say, a low-quality Chinese buffet and it's totally bland and flavorless. They think that every tofu dish ever is going to be like this and avoid it at all costs. My fiance is one of those people; he won't touch it unless it's in miso because he thinks he hates tofu all around (except for some reason in miso). However, when we go out to a local Thai place that does great tofu dishes, he actually enjoys it when I share with him.
Yeah, I used to think in hated tofu. When I first tried it, I bought it uncooked from the store and tried to cook it on a hotplate with no seasoning and had no idea what I was doing. I think I actually made it taste worse.
Now it's one of my favorite foods.
I've tried it a few times, and I've found it to be the same rubbery, off-tasting dreck each time. I mean, if you like it eat it. I just hate the stuff, personally. I'd rather just go without trying to fake meat if I am cooking for vegans or vegetarians.
Back in college an eon ago, they'd cut the hamburger with soybeans. Students complained, but it was better for our health and for the environment.
I really liked the hot dogs at my college and I learned right before I graduated that it was actually turkey dogs rather than beef.
We should embrace this now. People that want to eat meat can still eat it, but it will reduce their carbon footprint and ultimately kill fewer animals.
Not that it contributes to eating less meat, but I made a cake with black beans instead of flour when I was on this low-carb kick, and it was really damn good.
I buy ground beef in bulk, brown it with about an equal amount of diced peppers and onions, portion, and freeze.
Anything that calls for 1lb of ground beef gets 1/2lb ground beef with 1/4lb onion and 1/4 bell peppers. Which is fucking great for tacos or pasta sauce, or a quick chili or even hamburger helper. Good time saver for weeknight meals, the rice is the biggest time investment for taco night now.
Even better is ground turkey meat. I’m trying to go healthier right now and honestly it’s a great meat.
Spaghetti, lasagna, burgers, etc. are all elevated with ground turkey meat.
I haven’t eaten ground beef in three months now and I have no desire to.
I've tried that. It's gross. Not for me unfortunately.
mmm black bean burgers are delicious. However, they taste nothing like actual beef burgers, and I consider them their own separate thing.
That's the problem lots of people run into with vegan options. They assume that it'll replace meat and be identical to it. Well, it's not. Vegan food is vegan food, much like you don't expect your saucy ribs to taste like steak. They're their own things.
I'm not vegan, but hot damn do I love the black bean burgers from Costco, mushroom substitutes, etc. There IS good vegan food, just treat it as a food style like "Chinese" or "Mexican".
Also part of the problem is the people pushing these Burger subs always say things like "tastes just like beef, you can't even tell the difference." Than you take a bit and it tastes nothing like beef.
tbf they're getting closer and closer -- the beyond burger is pretty damn close and sold in the meat isle in some stores and i've heard the impossible burger is great too.
The Impossible Burger is amazing. I know people that have had to ask their server to confirm that it wasn't an actual beef burger, because they were sure the kitchen screwed up.
Morningstar Farms vegetarian "riblet with BBQ sauce" does actually taste almost exactly like the Mcdonald's Riblet. I think this is directly related to the amount of actual meat in both products.
I'm vegetarian, but I don't miss meat at all and don't really want a substitute. When I want a "something between two buns" I get a black bean burger from Jucy's. So, so good.
Yeah. I like portabella burgers way more than I ever liked real ones.
And then you have products like the Impossible Burger which, for all intents and purposes, is meat.
Have you tried using a fried portabella cap as a Burger? It's delicious.
God I love black bean burgers, I routinely order them with bacon on top which gets me weird looks but Holy God is it good.
Black bean is good, but I mix in Ritz crackers with my burger and it’s ridiculously good and holds the patty together way better than without. Also a decent filler.
Trader Joe's has fantastic Indian Masala Burger patties that are meatless. Oh they are so good!
I like them but they make me fart SO much. Like 10 minutes after eating one I'll clear out a room.
Add some beets if you want it to bleed!
Whenever we make beef tacos in our house, we fill it out with onions, black beans, and, lately, rice. Really stretches the beef.
And it's more authentic! Some kind of beans seems to be mandatory in all Mexican cooking.
That's because beans ARE mandatory in mexican cooking
It SEEMS to be that BEANS are MANDATORY in authentic mexican BEAN cooking BEAN
Authentic for a burrito, I guess.
Authentic for what? In LA we live on tacos and I've never seen one served by a Mexican that had rice or beans in it. I've never seen it in Mexico either, come to think of it. As a side yes, but as taco filler no.
Beans, beans, the Mexican fruit...
magical*
Well, yea, but that didn't fit the theme of the thread.
TVP is very ground beef like. Just an idea for another good protein source.
Yeah. I prefer seitan if I'm going for meat substitutes. But yeah, there are a ton of alternatives that people can use.
How do you feel about tempeh? I've used it before in pasta dishes, and it's delicious.
I admittedly have only had tempeh a handful of times, and I've been underwhelmed. I had this really bizarre tempeh "burger" one time that was like, flat tempeh noodles on a bun. Really weird. I'd be open to trying to again though.
Hmmm, around here tempeh comes in a slab. I always slice it up thin and sauté it with garlic and spinach and mushrooms, and it makes a delicious sauce for pasta.
You can also use potatoes (New Mexican poor ftw)!
I want to eat more potatoes than I do. That's a good idea.
stretches the beef
you should keep that to yourself, there are children here
I mean usually I don't just fill a taco shell with just beef
Hah yeah, I mean cook those things into the beef mixture itself. then add all your usual taco toppings - sour cream, refried beans, cheese, whatever.
So you basically get a bunch of bean flavored stuff. Are you secretly Taco Bell?
If loving beans makes me Taco Bell, then swing on by drunk at 2am for a lukewarm meaty treat for a great price. Wait.
One day, you should replace the beef with Morning Star Veggie Crumbles. They're made to taste and feel like ground beef. With the taco seasoning and other things you're adding, I doubt you'll taste too much of a difference. It's little steps like that that can help people cut back on meat almost entirely.
That is a good idea. We are pretty limited with our meat consumption already and source responsibly when we do buy meat, so I'm not too concerned with further reduction, so thing like tacos are the exception when we actually have beef. But that's absolutely a good step for someone to take.
That's awesome to hear! Been vegetarian for 10 years, and when I make this for my friends or put it on nachos, my friends always say it's delicious. I hope you like it!
Try refried beans, we call it meaty beans. Makes 1lb of taco meat seem like 2 and tastes good.
Growing up, we always put refried beans in tacos with no meat at all. My dad now cookes some ground beef separately as well and does a 50/50 mix when assembling his tacos but I prefer having just beans. It's delicious.
Try oats instead of rice. Its a whole grain and when cooked very similar in texture to ground beef. Its how taco bell cheaps out on their beef tacos and people love that shit.
Give substitute ground beef a try as well (like Quorn, Gardein, Morning Star). It works so well in those kind of dishes. I make chili, tacos, and lasagna with them.
Yeah. I eventually realized that you can replace a lot of the meat with onions and rice.
Mmmmm stretched beef.
stretches the beef
Hahaha. I laughed too hard at this.
Sloppy Joes are also really easy to stretch. I usually add a whole bell pepper and onion finely chopped, plus several tomatoes roughly chopped. Fed two adults and a child, plus leftovers, with only 1/2 lb of ground beef.
TVP or textured vegetable protein is really handy for that as well
Great call. I like to very finely dice a couple of golden or red potatoes (1/4” x 1/4”) and throw them in with the meat. It absorbs some of the juices, adds good flavor, and also stretches the meat.
Try mixing in some sweet corn, it's delightful.
I love stretching my beef
This is a great idea. I don't understand why people are in an uproar about places that do things like use ingredients like TVP in their taco meat or hamburger meat. Of course it would be great to replace animal-meat with something like Beyond Beef, but hybrids should be encourage to help people with the transition and cut down on their environmental footprint. It just seems like a win-win.
Fuck the transition.
What do you mean?
I think the problem with veggie burgers is when people hear the term burger, they expect the same (or similar) taste of a beef patty. Once I realized that a veggie burger will taste entirely different than a beef burger I learned to appreciate them much more. Veggie burgers don't taste bad at all. They're just different than beef.
Exactly. There are some flavors of veggie burgers that are trying to imitate beef, and I think they are all awful. However, I really enjoy other veggie burgers. Beans, peas, corn,etc. Stop trying to be beef, just be a veggie burger. It's a different food.
Except for products like the Impossible Burger, which are virtually indistinguishable.
I haven't tried that one, but I have no desire to. I just want tasty and healthy alternatives to meat, not something that is pretending to be meat.
At this point, it's hard to say it's pretending. It's more like it is actual meat. Think of it this way: for thousands of years we used animals as machines where we would input plants and they would output meat. Things like the Impossible Burger are effectively doing the same thing, but bypassing the middleman.
Man, if fast food joints had a lab grown burger on the menu I'd hit that for sure. Wouldn't even blink. Sounds awesome.
Check out the Impossible Burger website to see if they offer it at any restaurants in your area. It's not exactly lab-grown meat, but it's similar and made with science!
Oatmeal, believe it or not. Just regular rolled instant oats. No need to pre-cook. Totally disappears into the hamburger, helps keep the meat moist, adds fiber, and it is cheap and healthy.
I've been blending mushrooms into my ground beef for years! It's amazingly delicious. Sonic's acting like nobody's ever done this before.. LOL
The Impossible Burger is even better - it tastes and looks like meat, but is made of peas. I've had it and it's fucking amazing
If I only had a dollar for every time someone told me "X tastes like Y! You won't be able to tell the difference..." They are wrong 99% of the time.
Not with this one. The ones you're talking about are usually vegetables and grains just smushed together in burger form. The new plant-based meat products like the Impossible Burger use science instead!
It may be different, but I was just referring to everything that people have said that about. Alcoholic drinks, foods, etc.
Give the impossible burger a try as well, it's so meat-like that I wouldn't have known if nobody had told me.
Mushrooms and beans only supplement my meat orgies. Sure, I love mushrooms, beans are great. But the core of every meal is the browned marbled flesh of a delicious animal for me. I will see this world burn to the ground before I give up meat. That said, give me a vat-grown meat that tastes like the real thing and I'll gladly switch.
Is Sonic really any good? There is one in my town, but I literally never hear anybody say they've eaten there. I'm not sure if it's because they have a terrible location or terrible food. This mushroom burger does sound good though.
That’s awesome!!!!
So long as it doesn't replace the non-mushroom one, whatever. I'm happy for more options. I'm allergic to mushrooms, so that would cut burgers out entirely if it caught on too much.
Hell. Replacing 25% of the meat is so little you probably couldn't realistically taste the difference and wouldn't know unless told. A good compromise would be replacing like 50-60%. Just enough to taste semi normal.
I tried one. It was petty good, but it is the size of a slider. I should have ordered 3.
That'd but look at the size of that patty! Cutting down on beef with a ginormous size portion of it is a bit counter productive.
Fun fact: Fast food companies have been doing this for years. But the attitude towards "meat" and value forced them to use off meats to bulk burgers or "seasonings" like soy/thickeners (Taco Bell's famous one).
The irony of course is now the same thing that they used to hide, is and always has been a selling point.
Imagine the kangaroo meat scandal from the 80's today. I gurantee you if the McRib was an awesome/seasonal item, the McRooger would be too.
I know I'd line up for the Buffalo burger.
Or as you just attested to, a "healthier" burger with less meat.
I have an excuse to drive into jersey now, thank you for this informative stranger.
To add onto this people should check out Field Roast products. They make vegan friendly meat substitute foods like sausages and burger patties. Especially with the sausages the texture is just like meat and they taste amazing. I've fed them to my carnivorous friends and they loved them.
All the Sonics around me closed :(
There's a weird stigma against veggie-versions of meat products. Like I consciously know that a veggie patty will just have beans and mushrooms and maybe some grains or cheese, but branding it as a meat alternative suddenly makes it really unappealing.
Veggie options need better marketing that doesn't revolve around how horrible omnivores are.
That sounds disgusting to me
To each their own I suppose, but it sounds quite tasty to me
On environmental side always try to eat more seasonal veg
And grow your own. There's no reason to buy herbs that can be grown in jars in your kitchen. And fresh herbs are better anyways.
I actually stopped eating meat earlier this week. It's something I have been thinking about doing for several years now, but as you pointed out, meat tastes great. So far the hardest thing has been ease, it's really easy to eat meat. I need to plan ahead a little more than usual to make sure I have options during the day, but it'll be worth it.
I went vegetarian for Lent and I'm going to stay that way. Like you, I had thought about doing it for several years. The convenience of meat is the only thing I've missed -- no more ham sandwich as an easy protein source at lunch, for example. I don't even like ham sandwiches much but they sure are easy to make.
So instead, for sandwiches I'm eating more cheese (bonus, with onion or cucumber or tomato) and more peanut butter, and sweet fillings like jam have been squeezed out. Other nice sandwiches which require more effort: egg salad, lettuce & tomato & crispy fried tofu or haloumi, falafel & fried or roasted green pepper (bonus, with cheese). I'd like to try some mushroom pate but all the mushroom pates in my nearby supermarkets have meat, so I'm considering making my own at some point. Recipe advice welcome.
Dinners are no harder than they have been, really. Mushrooms and tofu can be a bit of a faff to prepare or store, but I've realised, so is meat! And meat has higher stakes around getting it wrong, no pun intended.
Don't forget to try out substitutes they are a game changer and are even more convenient than meat.
Literally the best advice on this thread! The amount of substitutes that I found were a thing when I turned vegan blew my mind.
I’ve been putting “ground meat” into my eggs for extra protein. I’m a big fan of that so far!
Yeah the ground beef works really well in most dishes that require ground beef because most of them have so much flavor/sauce that it just provides the protein/texture. I do like the 'chicken' as well but I prefer the Quorn brand for that.
The only thing about the 'chicken' is that you can't cook it like you would normal chicken. I tend to add a bit of water and herbs/spices, let it simmers down until it absorbs the flavor and becomes succulent, then pan fry with a bit of olive oil.
I use that for chicken pita's and things like fajitas or quesadillas. Works well as long as you don't just pan fry it with no flavors, it just becomes tastless, chewy, dry, cardboard like stuff if you do it wrong.
I think most people who first start trying substitutes make the mistake of cooking them like actual meat, I know I did... how you cook that stuff makes such a huge difference.
It takes over a month to adjust and create a new habit! You can do it :). /r/vegan is a great source for support and recipe and meal ideas. There’s a ton of fruits and veggies you don’t need to cook at all. It’s pretty easy to wash a carrot and fruit and eat it ;)
That is great! Breaking our habits can be quite difficult, but it gets easier oce you formed new ones . And once you're used to it you will need to plan less again.
I've been vegetarian for four years. It gets way easier. After the first month I didn't even have to think about it. It just becomes a natural habit, and I feel no different. If anything, I feel better because my diet is healthier with barely any effort.
Try Quorn for faux chicken and field roast for faux meat. If you want to go less processed, tempeh can be marinaded and pan-fried like steak bites. I did mine this week with a citrus herb marinade and dipped them in pesto, pretty amazing. I’m cool with tofu but we aren’t besties, these are my favorites.
I have been a vegetarian for 15 years now; at first I felt like I had to plan to substitute meat in meals but over time it became wholly unnecessary, and it’s so rare for me to find a place I can’t get a decent meal at. Enjoy your journey!
r/vegan is an awesome community and there's tons of resources for recipes, easy substitutes, etc.! After years of going back and forth on meat eating I finally learned enough about environmental effects to fully make the switch. Subreddits and other online communities have really helped make it easy.
Good for you! If you haven’t already, check out r/vegetarian. They’re a supportive bunch :)
I’ve actually been subbed for about a month now, some of their posts are what gave me the gumption to give this a shot.
Awesome, excellent work 😁
Make sure to try the meat substitutes, they are great at providing the meat texture and protein in meals like Chili, Lasagna, Tacos, Fajitas, Burgers, Hotdogs etc. If you're just taking out the meat out of dishes you normally eat you're doing it wrong. You need to replace the meat with things like substitutes, beans, mushrooms, cheese, vegetables etc.
I’ve already been dabbling I this. I’m making a veggie pizza later and it’ll be loaded with shrooms, spinach, peppers, and “ground meat.”
I’m not a huge fan of tofu, but I’ve really enjoyed tempeh when I’ve had it.
The only way I like tofu is pan fried with a dipping sauce on the side (soy/garlic) or stir fried where it's mixed with other ingredients. Miso soup is the only thing I sort of like non-fried tofu in but overall I wouldn't use tofu as a meat replacement in meals that aren't Asian, the texture/flavor of tofu just doesn't lend itself well for most non-Asian cuisines.
That's why I'm so glad substitutes exists, even if a lot of them are made of soy, the taste and texture isn't that of tofu so you can make more American/European/Texmex style dishes which I tend to prefer over constantly eating Asian foods, I prefer Asian foods in moderation.
I will say Chicken Korma using Substitute chicken is really nice. I also had success frying the substitute chicken with yogurt to make a crunchy outside but the only flavor that I liked using that method was curry. The other one I've tried, plain salt/pepper, didn't work... Come to think of it I should try BBQ, it might be really nice using that method.
For non-meat substitutes I tend to go for Halloumi, portobellos, or eggplant. Halloumi or Marinated Portobello burgers are to die for.
Tofu can be made in large batches that can be saved for meals throughout the entire week. You can spend like 1 hour pressing, marinating, and cooking your tofu. And then have it for the rest of the week.
You can do the same with other foods. Pasta usually isn't great after the 4th day of leftovers, but you can still prepare some for a few days. Same with stir-fried rice.
Also look into making or buying vegan deli slices. Tofurky makes some really good ones that are great for a quick sandwich. Or you can make them yourself with seitan.
Vegetables are great for leftovers and can be cooked in large batches. Then you can also get some vegan meat alternatives by Gardein for when you want something like meat that takes little effort. Just toss it in the oven for however long.
Honestly it's pretty easy once you get over the cravings, tons of good vege food out there. I eat probably 98% vegetarian and eat some paultry and fish if I'm out for a big family dinner or something and people want to do share plates. It makes it all the more special and cuts down significantly on my carbon footprint. I don't eat pork, beef or sheep or any ruminant animal as a matter of course but don't see why you couldn't do a "on special occasions" type rule with those as well if it's something you really like it will still make a huge difference.
Ground walnuts, nutritional yeast & hemp hearts tossed into some pasta sauce with a little bit of balsamic vinegar, mushrooms, spinach and spaghetti squash (or pasta) is super healthy, delicious and incredibly satisfying. When cutting out meat, it’s important to remember to keep healthy fats and fibre in your diet that will help you feel full and satisfied. Nut & seed spread for sandwiches and chopped or ground nuts added to dishes like stir fry or pasta are just as quick and easy as meat. You can make savoury nut spreads too. Soaked almonds ground with salt, garlic & umeboshi vinegar sort of tastes like salmon pâté.
Good for you! I agree that meat is easy and delicious, so I would encourage you to allow some cheating in your diet. I've been some degree of "vegetarian" for five or so years now, but I allow myself exceptions from time to time (I'll never turn down really good pulled pork!!). Cheating is not a failure, it's a step in the right direction! LESS meat is what is important. When I first started I made many exceptions and over time got better at finding/cooking tasty vegetarian options (TB spicy potato soft taco it's legit amazing). Good luck to you and others like you!
Yay! Congratulations. I'm curious what kind of meat you're eating that is so easy. The nice thing about eating more of a plant based diet is that for many food choices the only prep is chopping. I like to chop a bunch of veggies at the beginning of the week and then throw some in a container for my lunch at work. Also, some snack ideas for you - nuts/trail mix, chex mix, chips, fruit, baby carrots.
Well it’s probably easy because I’m used to it. It’s so abundantly available in comparison to meat products because I’m used to looking for things with meat in them. Also my husband eats a very high protein diet because he is so athletic, we’re used to cooking for one another or sharing dishes. He’ll eat vegetarian dishes I make easily, but he won’t stop preparing meat on the nights he cooks. I’m fine with that, but now I need to plan for that.
Also Pro Tip for any ground meat type dish like Bolognese. Start normally onion, carrot, celery ect. Cook it down add the suace then when it comes to the end grate up a cauliflower using the normal sized cheese grater side and it turns into a kind of couscous style consistency. Add that to instantly turn anything into the same feel as a ground meat dish.
I love putting cauliflower into things!
Imo it's a lot easier to cook a quick egg, snack on some yogurt, have some avocado on toast, etc than it is to make meat.
I mean, Sandwhich meat is convenient, but it's also loaded with sodium and carcinogens
Eggs are meat and will have hormones and antibiotics in them from most major livestock operations
They're not meat. They're an animal product, and organic eggs are free of the major livestock operation's chemicals. Vegan and Vegetarian aren't the same thing btw, vegans won't eat eggs, many vegetarians will.
Organic is a marketing term devoid of regulation by the FDA or USDA. Believe what you like.
Meat or not meat, it is an ongoing debate. I believe eggs are meat because the yolk was eventually going to be a living animal. I'm not vegan myself, so maybe its an uncommon opinion of non-vegans
Fair enough.
Eggs are an animal product, and some vegetarians don't eat them/some definitions of vegetarianism exclude them, but they are still not a kind of meat. If there are further similarities between meat and egg which are fundamental to both (not additives), please let me know!
Meat is good for you. I know reddit seems to push a vegetarian/vegan agenda hard, but please don't do it just because the people around here say its better for you to not eat it (because its not)
Lmao I see way more anti-vegetarian/vegan messages on reddit than I see pro
It's not just about health though, many people stop eating meat for environmental or ethical reasons. What sources do you have that say meat is good for you? I'm genuinely curious.
Well I’ve never been a big meat eater to begin with, but I do understand the benefits of a high protein diet. I’m cutting it out more for the environmental reasons and ethical reasons. If my husband and I raised pigs and chickens I would totally eat them.
Can you explain why meat is good for you?
Protein, saturated fats, nutrients
You get more protein in beans and saturated fat increases cholesterol which is the biggest killer in the west. Meat also causes cancer.
What nutrients exactly?
Guess it's not good for you...
You don't know shit about nutrition
Still waiting for you to explain these "nutrients" 😂
Came here to say this, you don't need meat in every meal. Hell, you don't even need meat every day. If everyone in America only ate meat 2-3 times a week it would change the world drastically for the better.
You don't need meat at all.
But eating it less would still make a significant impact.
I don't need to drink beer either. It's still perfectly reasonable to find a middle ground between being teetotal and an alcoholic.
The difference is that beer doesn't have to be slaughtered.
I'm afraid you're not doing a very good job of explaining why that is something I should take issue with.
I've slaughtered my own meat before. Am I supposed to have some sort of philosophical epiphany at this juncture?
I assumed you considered unnecessary suffering to be bad. Do you not?
What would torture accomplish?
I'm not sure I understand why you mean by that. I was expressing that while you seem to consider the meat/beer thing to be a question of moderation, I am arguing that meat is a moral question while beer is not, and moderation doesn't really apply to moral questions.
Whereas to me the excessive consumption of meat is an environmental issue.
I have no interest in seeing an animal suffer (such as in some Chinese Traditional "Medicine") but I don't consider a quick death to be cruelty. Death in the wild is rarely so merciful. Hence why I ask about torture. What's the point of it?
On the other hand if we're talking trophic levels and the vast amounts of resources it takes to sustain a ludicrous amount of livestock then I'm all for drastically reducing meat consumption.
If I'm raising my own chickens on kitchen scraps that would otherwise go to waste then I see no ethical problem, for example. Sustainability is important.
I don't currently raise my own chickens but it's one of my goals for the near future, assuming I can get away from having to spend my days in an office in front of a computer rather than at home in front of a computer...
Whereas to me the excessive consumption of meat is an environmental issue.
We agree about this. I mean, it's pretty much just an empirical fact, right?
I have no interest in seeing an animal suffer
Obviously I agree with this too.
but I don't consider a quick death to be cruelty.
This we disagree on. Sure, maybe the animal doesn't suffer much if it's killed quickly, but does its life count for nothing? Would you apply the same to humans? If not, what's the difference? I think it's wrong to kill a person simply because you're depriving them of life, and don't see any reason why this isn't equally true for animals.
Death in the wild is rarely so merciful.
Yes, nature is brutal, but I don't think that the shortcomings of nature have much bearing on the ethics of eating meat. Maybe it's alright to go out and shoot an elderly deer to prevent it from starving, but breeding animals to be slaughtered is a different matter. The starving deer is a pre-existing problem. The bred-for-slaughter animal is one we create.
Hence why I ask about torture. What's the point of it? What do you mean by torture? Like torture in general? Interrogations? What's the connection to the current topic?
If I'm raising my own chickens on kitchen scraps that would otherwise go to waste then I see no ethical problem, for example. Sustainability is important.
In theory I don't have a problem with raising animals, e.g. for eggs, but if you have a choice between eating them and letting them live, letting them live would obviously be better for them. Raising chickens well and slaughtering them may seem symbiotic, since the chickens get to live better lives than they would in the wild, but isn't it far better to raise them and not slaughter them? (Also, there's an additional problem with chickens since the males are mostly killed at birth, but let's leave that since it's specific to the particular example you chose, not the overall question.)
I don't currently raise my own chickens but it's one of my goals for the near future, assuming I can get away from having to spend my days in an office in front of a computer rather than at home in front of a computer...
Yeah, I'm not a fan of the office life either. Being more self-sufficient would be great.
What do you mean by torture? Like torture in general? Interrogations? What's the connection to the current topic?
You consider humanely slaughtering an animal to be cruel. Animals have to die. This will either be through infirmity or being killed. There's no other way out. This is why I mention torture. I consider treating animals badly to be horrific. I don't consider killing them when it's time to be even remotely the same thing, especially as I've done it myself.
I don't see the problem with this and I've yet to hear some argument that is better informed than my own experiences on the matter. I've seen first hand what happens when animals die of old age. It's agonising. I'm most certainly not without empathy and why I'm a staunch animal welfare supporter.
but isn't it far better to raise them and not slaughter them
They'd be of considerably less utility to me in that case. Why would I bother?
Animals have to die. This will either be through infirmity or being killed. There's no other way out.
I think it's perfectly fine to euthanize an animal if its health starts to go south. It's obviously better than the alternative. In principle I'm even fine with eating an animal under those circumstances. I think the problem comes when their lives are cut short.
Animals have to die. This will either be through infirmity or being killed. There's no other way out.
This is also true of people, but no one suggests this as a reason why it would be perfectly ok to kill a healthy, young person. I don't think animals are any different.
They'd be of considerably less utility to me in that case. Why would I bother?
Treating something sentient as a utility is what I object to. I think its just objectively better not to arbitrarily cause suffering or death, regardless of the utility in doing so.
I'd like to suggest a hypothetical. Let's say there is a person who enjoys killing animals. Not torturing them. Just killing them. So they start raising some livestock, treat them well, and when they reach one year of age, shoot them in the head with a bolt gun. The bodies are simply thrown out. The person experiences genuine pleasure from doing this. Do you think this is ethical? I think that this example is morally equivalent to raising and killing animals for taste preferences. As an addendum, I'm not trying to imply that you are deranged like the individual is the hypothetical lol.
I don't think animals are any different.
Then I suspect we shall never see eye to eye. To me there is an upper limit on intelligence of an animal after which point I don't consider it ethical to eat them. Dolphins would be an example.
That's arguably one of the secondary reasons we selectively breed out intelligence from livestock.
Do you think this is ethical?
It's massively wasteful so not particularly, no.
In general if the idea is to convince me of the error of my ways I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree. I've given this considerable thought and am entirely comfortable with my own ethical standpoint. I oppose waste and cruelty. I do not consider taking the life of an animal to be difficult or emotional and do not consider it an act of cruelty.
I don't think animals are any different.
Let me qualify this statement a bit further then. Obviously there are differences between different animals and humans, but presumably animals are equally able to feel pleasure, pain, and a desire to live as we do. I don't think intelligence is very relevant. It doesn't take much intelligence to want to live. Also, small children are of comparable intelligence to some animals. Is it therefore ok to kill young children before they develop cognitively? If not, why not? What additional factor to intelligence makes it different?
It's massively wasteful so not particularly, no.
It's only wasteful if you view the meat as food. This person certainly did not waste what they viewed as the commodity: the fun of killing something. Or is your objection to this more of a sustainability thing?
Besides the wastefulness though, do you object to what this person is doing? Because the ethics of killing something for a small amount of pleasure is what I'm getting at. I think killing an animal because you like meat is the same as killing an animal because it's fun.
I do not consider taking the life of an animal to be difficult or emotional and do not consider it an act of cruelty.
But again, it's needless death isn't it? How can that be ethical when it's possible to simply not kill those animals.
Whether you choose to eat it or not does not change the fact that it is a food source for humans.
I'm also tired of arguing with you on the whole death thing. You're getting to the stage of making reductive arguments and so forth and it's pretty tedious.
I've taken lives and will one day die myself. Death is necessary and we're quibbling over when it comes and what we do with the remains. I don't expect to be eaten myself but my organs will be harvested if they're of use to anyone. In the meantime I live.
it is a food source for humans
This is like saying "slavery is a labor source for humans". It's technically true, but completely missed the moral question.
You're getting to the stage of making reductive arguments and so forth and it's pretty tedious.
I'm making reductive arguments because I think your views are probably inconsistent. Like when you mention intelligence as a factor, I'm pretty sure you're only using this as a rationalization.
Death is necessary
Killing is not. Again, missing the moral question.
my organs will be harvested
That's not relevant unless you think someone is going to kill you for your organs.
I think your views are probably inconsistent. Like when you mention intelligence as a factor, I'm pretty sure you're only using this as a rationalization.
I disagree with you. I have no way to convince you though and frankly think you would refuse to see any perspective other than your own regardless.
Again, missing the moral question.
No, just disagreeing about the moral issue's fundamental principle. You consider it inherently incompatible with your viewpoint which removes all compromise and middle ground. Any killing of anything overshadows any other concerns for you, as far as I can tell.
For me it doesn't.
If that troubles you then there's very little I can do to help you. My viewpoint is one I have arrived at after many years of consideration, not something I have defaulted to. You can either accept that it's possible to hold another opinion on these matters without being naïve or continue to attempt to convince me of something that my experience directly contradicts.
The argument that works for me to reduce the consumption of meat is the issue of balance within the ecosystem. Some land and resource situations are suited to pastoral agriculture but unsuited or impossible for arable farming. Raising livestock in cruelty-free ways is an ideal use for those resources to live sustainably. This also factors in things like carbon footprint of transporting things which, in the case of cargo ships is a huge thing. I've planted hundreds of trees too because I'm concerned about the ecosystem as a whole. I'm not all talk on this subject; I've done my best to change my habits as much as possible to have a positive impact on the environment and my local ecosystem. To me that is far more important than the squeamishness or hand-wringing associated with the deaths of a reasonable number of animals.
There's no middle ground between life and death. The animal is wrongfully kept captive or slaughtered against their will.
this type of sanctimonious response only serves to drive people away from going vegetarian/vegan. maybe you don't care about that specifically, but you're clearly passionate about this subject, so you should want to encourage people to do more research on it. if everyone ate less meat == fewer animals would face the horrors of slaughterhouses, so OP's point is completely in line with your own.
It's not sanctimonious at all. They just stated a fact. You are projecting that onto it.
"wrongfully"
How is that not sanctimonious? It's actively injecting a specific morality into the matter.
Are you saying that any discussion of morality is automatically sanctimonious?
I believe they are.
yeah, on its own it's a fact, but in lieu of the thread it came off as sanctimonious. but yes, that's just my opinion, so, agree to disagree.
I'm not saying it's not in line with my own and I admit my feelings got the better of me but also I don't care that they did. If someone is passionate about a subject you should not call them names. Instead of me encouraging you to do research why don't you do it yourself? Why should I spend that time on someone who compares a sentient life to that of alcohol and claim they have no will to live ? Why would I even bother. Sometimes meat eaters really just grind against me and I just cannot fathom that you cannot understand a growing population of people who do not agree that eating meat is healthy, sustainable and ethical. Yes you should eat a lot less meat for your general health but you should also eat no meat to save the life that never got to decide anything for themselves.
you don't have to do their research, that's not what i was implying, my apologies. it's just that being polite goes a long way, and people are more likely to research stuff on their own if the community is inviting and encouraging. i do understand your position, and i also understand that emotions can inevitably come into play. but, if you're able to take a step back, i know that patience and respect will help you achieve your community's goals more quickly. rome wasn't built in a day, and neither will a meat-free world, so i think that any small step in the right direction is progress.
I understand your point. Unlucky for everyone I got mad at, I was angry at my sister and I couldn't argue with her so I kinda went rogue 😅😅 sorry. People will find the vegan community more welcoming if they ask questions and seem interested. Most the time your met with " I just love meat too much " and it's an infuriating thing to say to plant based people because to us, that's just not good enough of an excuse.
lol it's cool, i get into blowout fights w/ my sister all the time, god help anyone who gets in my way during that. yeah i understand, i've been slowly phasing meat out bc i won't eat it if i don't know where it's coming from. i hunt which a lot of people balk at, but i prefer to eat stuff that i or a friend personally source (i have friends who own farms and raise cattle/chickens/veg). but that being said, i know the end game is still the same (animals dying). it's hard "straddling the line" bc i'm met with hostility on both ends at times (which is honestly ridiculous, like, why would someone who eats meat care wtf i eat?) BUT a lot of you vegetarians/vegans, for the most part, have been helpful w/ recipes and general education. so thank you! and i apologize if i came off hostile initially, wasn't my intention.
Same, I'm sorry if I was hostile. I don't know where I stand on hunting tbh. I feel like if it's not like fox hunting here in the uk then that's already a better type of hunting. I know when hunting the meat you get lasts you longer because you have the whole Damn animal to eat not just your select cut .
It's like on the one hand meat is murder but on the other hand hunting is completely different in the aspect that you aren't contributing to the billions of murders just the one if hunting is your main source of meat. Hunting has always split me.
The animal is wrongfully kept captive or slaughtered against their will.
The animal is alive specifically because we desire a greater population of them and take steps to make that happen.
I try to eat substantially less meat than my peers because it's better for the environment and my health. I don't attach a label to this or derive some element of my identity from it. I also recycle religiously, walk as much as possible, etc. etc..
The notion that it's all or nothing is repellant and naïve.
I have also slaughtered my own meat before. I am not insulated from the realities of life and death.
The notion that it's all or nothing is repellant and naïve.
Why?
The idea that one can want to make the world a better place and yet disagree on some of the specifics is met with open hostility. I eat some meat which gets roughly the same response as "I don't consider it a proper meal without meat" from many people on here.
To me that is utterly asinine and underscores why vegans get a bad rep.
The idea that one can want to make the world a better place and yet disagree on some of the specifics is met with open hostility.
"Disagreeing on the specifics" is a gross mischaracterisation. What you're saying is "inflicting unnecessary suffering is fine"... you don't see how that would be very disagreeable to people who don't want to inflict unnecessary suffering?
is a gross mischaracterisation
It's really not. I've said my piece.
It is.
Really? That's your piece? Why bother saying anything at all?
To prevent it being an echo chamber.
That's your piece?
The previous comments were my piece.
Oh, I know. That's what I was responding to.
Then make your peace with my piece.
Our ethical principles differ in some of the specifics. Rather than seeing my ethos as an improvement on the default you only see the points you disagree with. That sounds exhausting.
Oh, I have, it's just very disappointing that someone would deliberately think so little about the choices they make that affect others.
It's disappointing that someone would take a difference of opinion as ignorance.
I said nothing about ignorance. The decision to charactarise what you're saying as "ignorance" is purely yours.
Then perhaps you'd care to offer a different explanation for "thinking so little about"?
Ignorance = lack of knowledge, not lack of thought.
It's disappointing that someone would take a difference of opinion as lack of thought.
No, I take lake of thought as lack of thought. You've barely even ventured your opinion.
I honestly haven't kept track of what I've said to who in this thread as my viewpoint is consistent. It also seems to have been met with "You don't think every animal life is worth more than the ecosystem as a whole? You disgust me."
My ethics on the matter are fairly nuanced and have had a lot of thought and experience backing them up. Ethical life choices have been made to find a solid middle ground between different extremes on either end of the spectrum.
That's the thing about reddit, you can go back and read what you've said.
Lol, why is it everyone who can't be bothered thinking about a subject thinks their view is "nuanced" and "middle ground". You are the living definition of the argument to moderation fallacy.
why is it everyone who can't be bothered
You're being a presumptive ass. You disagree with my views, that's not the same as them being lazy. I'm sorry that it pains you so that you must resort to this kind of behaviour to justify to yourself why anyone would hold other views.
If this were about favourite colour would I perhaps be accused of being colour blind for not sharing your personal view? There must be something wrong with me, it couldn't possibly be that there are multiple ways to weigh up the factors in a complex web of issues!
Nah, your views are lazy.
"no u" takes less time to write and conveys your attitude a tad better.
So you're trolling?
Quite the opposite. I'm saying that your accusation of laziness is pathetic grasping at straws and your repetition of it might as well be "no u" for all the grace and intellect it shows.
You use so many words to say so little.
It's almost as if I revel in the use of language and enjoy the nuance available to me...
That is literally the opposite of what I said.
I could say something with basic words (or maybe even pointing and grunting!) or I could try to convey my thoughts more accurately with additional and varied words.
However if the concept is so simple why is it so hard for you to grasp?
Could it be, perhaps, that you berating my informed opinion as lazy is presumptuous arseholery (gasp!)?
Nah, that'd mean you'd have to entertain the notion that people disagreeing with you aren't inherently stupid, broken, or ignorant. After all, it's got to be something like that. It couldn't be anything else.
See, that was quite fun for me to write!
Alternatively I could go with the simpler version:
Fuck you.
lol, you thought that was way more eloquent than it was, didn't you?
I thought it was fun to write.
Oh, don't worry, I was very entertained by it.
How magnificent that we could both benefit.
If it doesn't have a will, how can it be against it?
So animals have no will to live? I'm sure countless species of animals that have survived on pure self will would like to argue their case....
I don't know. They seem to be more instinct than will lad.
Plus cows never survived because of themselves. They survived cause we liked them.
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' I am losing the argument so I am gonna ad hominem'
There is no argument, anything that is a living animal has a will to live! Otherwise animals (to be more specific cows) would not eat or fend for themselves, they would just die. People just like to try to justify the large quantities of animals they consume by stating that they are not coherent beings and that they were made for consumption only.
Yeah you have no argument other than dogmas.
Plus eating sleeping and fending for themselves can come from instincts.
So you can say 100%, no doubt in your mind, that humans are the only living beings that have a will to continue living?
I can not prove that however you cannot prove the opposite either.
Do you believe in Evolution?
Plants are great!
No I don’t, but I do. I’ll eat less of it, but fuck you for telling me to not eat it at all.
It's just a fact that you don't. It wasn't an attack. But also fuck you 😙
Nah don’t give me that bs, I know how much people love being condescending.
He didn't tell you to do anything, he just stated a fact... No reason to get so defensive.
Hell, you don't even need meat ever in your life!
It's honestly getting pretty easy to be vegetarian/vegan these days. I've got a buddy living with me for a bit and he's vegetarian. Since his diet is more restrictive, he does a lot of the cooking and thus I'm eating a lot of vegetarian meals.....and honestly, they're all really damn good. Many of the meat substitutes are actually fantastic, too. You can tell by taste and texture that they aren't meat, but they're still really good. There's a vegan burger patty that is fucking amazing and if I had to eat that for the rest of my life instead of real beef, I wouldn't put up a fight.
But I'd be a liar if I said I don't love a good porterhouse or BBQ sando.
Respect for the honesty. If you have a Hero Burger near you, try their vegan burger (I believe it's called the Soul burger). It's incredible.
A lot of people have this misconception that vegan food is disgusting, either from people spreading it around, or because they had a bad vegan meal once, but there are tons of ways to cook delicious vegan food, including alternatives to meat.
Watch the documentary "earthlings". It's on YouTube. It's pretty eye opening about how bad our reliance on animal products is and how terrible the industry is.
I went to a screening of that movie in college with my vegan neighbors. My roommate and I were walking by them and they said "want to go see a movie? It's called 'Earthlings.'" I thought it would be some b-scifi movie or something.
Holy fuck was I wrong. That movie was a fucking nightmare. I went home and the only thing I had to eat without animal products was spaghetti and marinara. I ate that for a week straight.
Eventually, I talked to my neighbors about it, telling them how much I was struggling with it. They assured me that I don't need to go hardcore vegan like that right away, just to start off with things like cutting down red meat and making sure your meat is local, free-range kind of stuff.
My girlfriend is vegetarian (mostly for environmental reasons) and when we cook dinner at home it's always vegetarian. I still eat meat - I admit I love me a good steak - but I have brought my consumption way down. It's healthier, better for the environment, and more humane. I'm not perfect, but I'm better than I was before.
We're on a thread about ethics, you are allowed to talk about the ETHICAL choice to eat meat. If you're not aware of where your meat came from and what it had to go through to get on your plate, stop eating, go do some research and really consider your position on meat.
The industry is way crueler than what most people believe.
I'm glad you brought this up and I wish it had more attention. Reddit, for all its love of kittens and puppies, always seems to scoff at animal welfare in the meat industry. "I love animals. They're delicious!" As if it's proposterous to be concerned about such things. But the reality of factory farms would make the "animal lovers" of r/Aww reconsider their burgers and dairy, I'm sure. For me it was learning the average age of beef cattle before slaughter: 9-15 months. No, that'd not veal; that's more in the vicinity of 4 weeks. And it was the dairy industry that made me shift (mostly) to vegan. Four years before slaughter of a dairy cow, constantly impregnated, and calf taken from her immediately after birth. Bond between mother and infant, reinforced through evolution for millions of years, broken again and again in a cycle of physical and mental trauma, whilst being penned and immobilized in squalor, to finally be slaughtered. It's heinous, it'd be illegal if we did it to dogs and cats, but mainstream society finds ever more creative ways to look the other way if it means a cheap burger.
This is a big reason I've turned away from milk - I had never thought about where milk actually comes from, that the cow has to be pregnant to produce it. Now I can't remember the last time I had a glass of milk, and try to avoid products with it as an ingredient. Plus, nut/soy milks are super tasty and can often have more protein!
Plus, fortified plant milks have the same amount or more vitamin D than fortified cow's milk!
Dairy is a cruel practice. Doesn't matter what tiny organic farm your milk comes from, the cows are forcefully impregnated and then have their babies taken away right after birth so that we can drink the milk that was meant for the baby cow, over and over until the mama cow is too exhausted to stand and then she's sent to slaughter.
Why the fuck are humans drinking cows milk anyway? Why are adults still drinking breast milk?
edit: word
Also almond milk is fucking delicious. (I know almond production uses up a ton of water, but I'm trying to pick one battle at a time)
Oat milk is bomb, it's so sweet. I love Trader Joe's organic vanilla soy too. I'm addicted to chai tea with vanilla soy rt now.
it does use a lot of water, but still not as much as dairy. And without the insane levels of pollution.
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I don't know ow what the deal was with this magical cow you knew, but cows absolutely must continuously give birth to make milk. They only make milk for about eight months after giving birth.
Edit: maybe a cow can keep producing a little bit of milk? Idk. Or maybe it was a bull and that wasn't milk (har har sorry).
Which is why I consider the /r/rage threads about someone slightly hurting a dog outrageously stupid. It actually probably hurts animals more to care about these irrelevant fringe events, since it helps uphold an incorrect narrative that these are not still by far among the most well treated animals humans interact with.
Imgur is even worse with the vegan hating.
The good news is the Impossible Burger is actually pretty good! Still not cheap enough but hopefully it'll get there.
The Beyond Burger is also a good option AND it's available in many grocery stores (located in the meat department), for those of us without access to the Impossible Burger. It's $6 for two patties at my local Kroger, but I've gotten lucky with some digital coupons for it in the past.
Good to know, and good to see competition in this area, especially after that whole hampton creek fiasco.
The Impossible Burger is actually incredible.
I'm actually excited to be near a FatBurger this weekend so I can have an Impossible Burger.
Absolutely. People have an incredibly rose-tinted view of the industry. Even animals that are raised half-decently get sent to slaughterhouses all the same. The similarities to how we treat cows and how Nazis treated Jews are remarkably telling.
I think everyone should see the film Earthlings, which is available free online. It's heart wrenching and could make the most steadfast carnist question their position.
100%. No matter how the animals were raised, they all meet the same fate. They all march to their deaths, fully aware of what is happening to them, powerless to stop it. They all experience the same cruel end to their short and miserable life. Most of these animals have never experienced a shred of love or respect before they die. Nobody wants to think about what is on their plate - that their burger was once a cow who was capable of love, playfulness and even had a personality - just like their dog or cat. Why love one but eat the other?
The similarities to how we treat cows and how Nazis treated Jews are remarkably telling.
People get SO OFFENDED when you bring up this point, and I understand why. They think "You're bring the value of people down to the value of an animal", but really you're lifting the value of the animal up to the value of a person or individual.
Once you understand that point, then it's easier to accept the similarities. People were literally brought to death camps in the same way animals are: in cattle cars, without food, water or shelter from the elements, for several days. Pigs and newly hatched chicks are gassed to death. If you can stomach it, you can look it up and listen to the pigs' almost human screams and watch them fight for their lives. It's awful and it's the reality of animal agriculture.
There’s nothing that separates us from animals, we just think we’re better than them. If it’s fucked up to do to animals it’s fucked up to do it to animals.
It's disingenuous to think nothing separates us. The fact that we have morals and ethical codes should point to that. However, using the fact that we ARE different as an excuse to treat other living creatures like shit is pretty telling.
I’ll probably get shit on for saying this because Reddit hates when people say it, but like everything else life is a spectrum. We all share the same roots if you go back far enough. Everything from ants to humans exists on that spectrum and none of them deserve disrespect.
Obviously not every life is exactly equal, you probably kill dozens of bugs every day without even know it and that doesn’t make you a monster. But going out of your way to kill every bug you see is still kinda fucked up.
It’s also perfectly fine to prioritize human lives over other animals, just like it’s perfectly fine to prioritize the safety of your siblings over strangers. I also think it’s fine to eat meat, as long as you’re actually doing that in the same was other animals do it (I also think it’s totally valid for a lion to kill and eat you, again, you’re not better than them). But the meat industry is not respectful towards animals at all, and contributing to that system is quite frankly fucked up.
The meat inudstry is by and large fucked, we agree there. I just wanted to point out that I think we are different from cows, or chickens. But that doesn't make it okay for us to do things we do.
You're right! I've made that exact point before and a person acted like I was down-playing the horrors of the Holocaust, when that couldn't be less true.
Pigs, cows, and chickens are all intelligent vertebrate animals that definitely have the capacity to feel pain and suffering. They simply don't have the voice to speak out against it.
How do you feel about insect agriculture? I work with insects all the time, and I absolutely LOVE bugs, but I think that if we, as a species, are dead set on eating animals, we have to start considering more sustainable, ethical sources such as crickets and grubs.
I have mixed feelings on insect farming. On one hand, yes it would be so much better for the environment and it would eliminate so much animal (and human) suffering.
On the other hand, I have to ask, do insects feel pain? I googled it and it seems there's no solid answer. We used to think infants, mammals, birds and fish don't feel pain, but we know now that they definitely do. They have complicated social structures, form bonds, and understand fear, pain, and happiness. We just didn't see it until somebody sat down to actually look at them and study them. So what if the same is true for insects? Just because we don't understand doesn't mean they don't feel. They have nervous systems and react to being hurt. I'm not saying that crickets and ants are on par with chickens and pigs, but they might be worth protecting anyhow. I don't even squish bugs if I can help it, in the off chance I cause it to suffer.
I guess my short answer is I'd prefer insect farming over our current system, but not exploiting animals at all would be best.
You are a good person. I totally agree on all that. I absolutely adore insects. I only think we should really utilize them in areas where we really need them, where it'd be hard to sustain populations on vegan diets alone. Honey is a grey area for me as well.
Can't stand it when people kill insects/other arthropods with absolutely no reason. Like... No... You don't have to spray paper wasp colonies, just don't stick your hand into the nest and you'll be fine. No, that spider is NOT going to bite you. Calm down people you don't need to murder wild animals just cause y'all think they're gross
Honey is a grey area for me, too. But I avoid it because it's still using a creature against their will, for a profit. They make don't make the honey for me, and taking things that don't belong to you is stealing. ;)
Though we need insentives for breeding and keeping bees alive as species, because pollination is essential for everything. So getting some honey for keepers to sell might be important.
Like Aiwatcher said, we should try to utilize animals only where we absolutely have to. If we need bees to polinate, then we should continue to raise them. But taking their honey to sell for a profit makes the arrangement completely one-sided and the bees lose out on all their hard work.
If we don't have to, then I don't think we should. But like I said, it's a grey area and honestly it doesnt bother me either way at this moment whether people eat honey or not.
Agreed. I'd love for governments to just support bee growing and not expect profit to keep it going. The reward that we get fruits and vegetables should be enough
Remember to tell people that holocaust survivors themselves have made that comparison!
I see where you are coming from, and we are quite far removed from what I'm about to mention at this point, but I urge you to read the book "veterinary ethics" by Bernard Rollins if you can, or really any other of his books for a bit of a different perspective. Going to slaughter for an animal is not the worst thing there is. In the past, it was sort of an exchange where we give prey animals a good life in return for their meat and humane death. Industry has really taken us away from our end of the bargain, but in the past 10 years, animal welfare has been a HUGE field of research in veterinary medicine, general production animal research, and industry.
I urge you to look into the literature to see what welfare papers are saying about current practices and the practices for husbandry that are currently coming into play and their effects on the animals. Many are given fairly species-typical lives where they are safe from any harm, rarely suffer, and have their lives ended either before any illness takes them, or are humanely killed if something bad does happen to them. This isn't to say that we don't have a LONG way to go and I completely understand veganism or vegetarianism due to welfare reasons and environmental reasons. It is just very frustrating to always hear people knocking animal industries without looking at a lot of scientific welfare research because sometimes the things that the public thinks are horrible or that are common practice, is simply not true in regards to animals. The biggest thing being with the beef industry.
Literally an industry of torture. I can’t stand it when people say they love animals as much as me as if it’s a competition and that statement somehow validates what they are personally funding day in and day out. But it’s also clearly not the case when they can’t be bothered to consider leaving animals off their plates. It’s really not hard to do nowadays.
For me it was learning the average age of beef cattle before slaughter: 9-15 months.
I'm not trying to be an asshole, or even disagree with you really, but why is that an issue? Would it be more ethical to eat them if they were older?
I guess the argument is basically an appeal to emotion. But in the end it doesn't matter. Killing a sentient being against its will can never be right. But there are more logical arguments for veganism with less assumptions than this one.
People are bringing up the emotional aspects of this practice, but to me, that isn't super relevant. If I chose to eat meat, it wouldn't matter a whole lot to me the age of the animal; a carcass is a carcass.
What I think is important about this statement is that a century ago it took 3-5 years to produce market-ready livestock of the same size. So how did that change so dramatically?
Well, once upon a time steer were left to graze in pastures and they'd build up weight at a more natural pace, and they'd burn energy in a more natural way. That took time and resources which the demands of our current market doesn't allow for, at least not while keeping the price of meat at the level we're accustomed to. So the life of a steer is engineered to put on weight fast and to not waste any of that bulk through needless activity. There's a whole host of methods that go into this way of raising livestock but it largely revolves around diet, hormones, antibiotics, and a lack of exercise.
So it really comes down to the question: are we crossing any ethical lines when we cause something to grow unnaturally large unnaturally fast? Don't get me wrong, we do this with practically all our food. But I feel there's a whole lot less ethical gray area when we do it to a tomato versus doing it to a thinking and feeling creature.
Because the meat industry likes to put happy smiling cows on the packaging that's filled with chopped carcasses. Part of their branding is telling consumers "The cows were happy!".
The reality that these cows live short pitiful lives goes in direct contrast to that bullshit marketing image. So it helps lift the curtain.
Because there is a myth that's been perpetuated by the industry that these animals live substantial, happy lives before being humanely slaughtered. That a cow lives out its life fully, grazing happily in some idyllic countryside, before it ends up on your plate. In reality, it lives a short, miserable existence, cooped up in filth, knowing only pain and fear before an abrupt end. It does not live anything near a full life.
Many people have ethical concerns about veal, and the same could be said. Why does it matter if it's young before we kill it? Well, they'd probably say something like I just said. Because we humans are generally opposed to killing something before it's had a chance to live.
I'm fortunate enough to be in Canada which has some pretty good requirements. Just gotta make sure you pay Canadian. Sterling Silver is pretty good. But that beef is from Albert, so if you're in Ontario well, that's quite the long drive. Suppose it's better than some other options though
Have you seen what happens to Canadian cows? I'm from the UK, where I thought we had pretty strict regulation on livestock, and it's no better than anywhere else. Calves are still separated from their mothers as soon as they are born, male chicks are still ground up alive, and pigs are still lowered, screaming, in to a gas chamber.
The cow wants to be free, and live it's life. Is there really any ethical way to end their life, just because you like the taste?
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Have you researched this yourself? Because holy shit, it's really, REALLY bad.
Also, look up gestation crates.
There's no ethical meat consumption. Farmer Joe is killing baby cows, shoving electric probes up their anuses, manually masturbating pigs, ripping babies away from screaming mothers just like Big Brand is.
And it isn't just animals either, farmers get fucked over too. John Oliver did a good rant on it.
https://youtu.be/X9wHzt6gBgI
Most poultry at least in the US comes from big farming corporations. They sell farmers chicks and the farmers raise them. They force farmers to upgrade, the farmers buy all their own equipment, they're forced to keep chickens as cooped up as possible with no sunlight so they don't lose weight moving around to much. These farmers are broke and given less money than promised. If they speak out the corporations give them poorer quality chicks or even fire them and this has lead to suicide. They force farmers to compete against their neighbors, the politicians are very fucking dirty in regards to this. They are literally threatening farmers from not using their 1st amendment rights. I highly urge people to watch that video.
I’ve been a vegetarian for a long time, and I still have mad respect for people who actually hunt their meat or get it locally. Although I have a personal moral objection to eating meat, I understand that it’s a natural thing and people should be allowed to eat it if they want. The problem is the meat industry is absolutely not natural and is truly fucked up in many ways. Hunting meat or buying it from a local farm is much more ethical, is a lot better for the environment, and is a lot better for you too.
You should consider making the jump to veganism.
It is harder, but in terms of the ethical impact, the egg and dairy industry are way more cruel than the meat industry.
I’m mostly vegan, I only consume dairy on occasion
I've been weaning myself off meat, one species at at time. First was beef. Now, eating less and less pork. Still eat ethically raised turkey, chicken and sustainable fish. A good bit of my reason was that I wanted to eat ethically raised/slaughtered meat. Beef and pork that is ethically raised/slaughtered is really expensive, as it should be. We as a society shouldn't be eating so much cheap meat every day.
"Ethically slaughtered" is an oxymoron if there's ever been one.
Seriously, I commend you on the progress you're making. But let's not mince words here. Killing is not an ethical action.
I did similar thining of my meat menu. Beef, then lamb, venison, pork...now all gone. Only accidental dairy, but im getting better at asking questions about mik in products. I live near big society of vegetarian Hindus, but they put ghee on everything.
Thought it would be difficult to change completely but after researching health benefits of whole food plant based diet the final switch was just a click away
And yet people look at me sideways when I tell them that's the reason I'd rather hunt my meat. Place the shot well, and it's all over in less than a second. Not to mention that it's as free range and organic as it gets.
I completely agree with you. I’m not willing to stop eating meat, but I can completely understand why some people would...
That’s why I hunt. Some people may call it cruel, but any animal I harvest lived a 100% wild life. Their death was swift and without undue suffering, and no part goes unused. No antibiotics. No slaughterhouse. No cages.
EVERYONE should have to go on at last one hunting trip where they PERSONALLY shoot, clean, and prepare an animal. If you can't kill one animal to feed yourself, yet have no problem with industrial killing of animals, then you should really reevaluate your stance.
Or just don't eat animals to begin with.
Nah.
Elequent, well thought out, and just a soupçon of wit...The perfect comment. Thank you for your contribution to the discourse.
You're welcome. Have a thorough day.
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That is a fucking awesome pool. If I ever buy an acerage I want to do that.
Plus most livestock are treated horribly.
Came here to say this - good on you! Some of my colleagues have started not eating meat through the week - it is much healthier and we all feel better about it.
meat tastes great and has nutrients it can be hard to get from non-animal sources.
Other than B-12, not at all. The thing about B-12 is they have to supplement it to the livestock, so why not skip the middle man and take the supplement directly.
EDIT: Technically nutritional yeast is vegan and contains B-12. So really you can get everything on a vegan diet without supplements.
Couldnt agree more. The meat industry is a huge environmental issue, regardless of any ethical problems.
My wife and I challenged ourselves to eat no meat for 1 month starting in January. We ended up making it until mid March before we ate meat again. We have began to eat meat again (my parents are farmers and give us free meat, and my cheap ass self can't turn down free stuff), but we limit ourselves to making 2 meat based dishes per month.
It was hard at first as basically everything we made was based on meat, but we've found a lot of new recipes and reworked old ones to have no meat. I stopped eating as much meat for environmental reasons and my wife for health reasons.
We feel better health wise, my blood pressure has gone from pre-hypertension back to normal, we've lost weight, and we spend less money.
I will admit though that meat tastes good but it's just not worth it just for taste.
And in those few months you've likely save a dozen or more animals by reducing demand for meat products :) anyone who thinks going vegan or vegetarian, or even flexitarian (primarily plant based but occasionally eating animal products) doesn't change anything, check out the dairy industry. They are literally campaigning and trying to say it's patriotic to buy dairy products you don't want or need to "save" the dairy farmers. Despite the fact that like 90% of animal products come from factory farms that definitely do not need or deserve saving. Also, many big meat companies like Tyson produce plant based alternatives, which obviously means they recognize a growing market for those products.
Right now I think about 1% of the population is vegan. Can you imagine if just 5% cut their consumption of animal products in half?
The dairy industry is trembling in its boots right now. In the UK, the was a #februdairy campaign, in response to veganuary (the vegan January thing everyone's talking about) and it was pretty much taken over by vegans by the middle of January.
Februdairy was fucking embarrassing lol. "Buy our shit out we'll feel bad :( :( :("
I eat only meat, dairy and eggs (carnivore diet, two years now. /r/zerocarb) and have had the same results. Many people have. Lost weight, skin looks better, my cholesterol is 147, trigs are low, all blood work is great. Veganism screwed me royally and I was doing it 'right'. All long term vegans look haggard, 20 years older than they really are and are starting to go crazy. We need saturated fat for our brains. One day people will come to see this, but it will be too late for many. Look up Owsley Stanley, he ate a carnivore diet for over 50 years. Died at 76, in a car accident. Was healthy, strong and mentally sharp his entire life.
You nailed it. EAT LESS ANIMALS. Do it for climate change, do it for your health, and do it for the animals.
But I eat animals for my health?
That’s why I said eat less, not stop. Plenty of studies out there show too much red meat leads to heart disease.
Not true.
Whatever you say bud.
Carbs bad. Fat good.
As a general statement, that's nonsense. But, regardless, a large number of vegetarian options are extremely high in fats/proteins, if you really want to. Also, the fats are generally more diversified, which is a positive.
Well, if not heart disease, then definitely colorectal cancer.
I'm trying to implement a once-a-week vegetarian night at my house, which is tough because my husband is a true southern, meat-eating kind of guy. He is usually initially resistant, but there are so many foods that are delicious vegetarian - pizza, burritos, Indian food. With those foods, you don't even miss the meat. I'm personally not a fan of "vegetarian meats" (e.g., soy bacon, soysage) because it's usually a bad imitation of meat.
I think that's where a lot of the stigma comes from--the substitutes. I find myself inadvertently making vegetarian meals sometimes just because I can't be bothered to thaw out one of the chicken breasts in my freezer. If I'm looking to reduce meat, light meat dishes that spread out a small amount of meat (like a couple of bacon strips for flavor in an 8+ serving meal) and no-meat dishes that are that way naturally are definitely my way forward.
I enjoy the quorn sausages I've tried because they're nice in their own right and they have a lot of flavour from herbs, but they aren't identical to meat sausages, especially in texture (they're much softer). That's okay! But if I wanted them to be identical then I would be sorely disappointed, and I couldn't sell them to someone else as being identical.
I don't particularly want to try quorn/whatever pretending to be straight up cuts of meat like ham substitutes or bacon substitutes. Sausages are meant to be a mishmash so they're fine. Still, I mostly eat mushrooms and chickpeas and tofu and cheese and beans because those foods are what slotted into my diet easily; I rarely ate sausage even when I ate meat, though I liked it well enough.
Yeah most vegans I've talked to don't rely have meat substitutes because they miss the taste/texture of meat and think it's a good replacement, but because they are quick and easy and require little prep. I have come across a few replacements that I genuinely enjoyed more than the meat they were imitating, though.
I see a lot of people doing Meatless Mondays. While I don't do that, I try to make several meals meatless. It's easier than you think actually, once you realize that you can just eat your normal foods.
For example, I can have fettucini alfredo with no meat easily. Fettucini, garlic bread, and salad. I don't miss the meat at all. Peanut butter and jelly for lunch saves money, and no meat.
I think people think they need to replace the meat with some sort of substitute, but there are plenty of meals without meat that we can enjoy.
The thing I don't get about meatless Monday: are people eating meat every day? Even in my omnivorous days I'd have meat like 4 days a week
I try to eat two veggie meals a week for this reason. Also its cheaper. I still love meat though.
I'm a 30+ year vegetarian married to an omnivore. I cook meat all the time, and he's awesome about forgoing it sometimes. The thing is, for anyone considering vegetarianism, is that if you feel like your meal is missing something (which I don't, I haven't eaten it since well before puberty), that's gonna be tough to maintain. Vegetarians claim that mushrooms and beans and grains are a substitute, but my husband and most meat-eaters I know, disagree. You really do have to change your palate to a certain degree, IME
This is totally me! I've eaten 95% vegetarian for the past two years, but growing up in a household where a meal was meat+starch+veggie, I usually only feel like I'm getting a "proper," fulfilling meal with that structure. Fake meat helps, but I definitely crave meat after a while even with realistic substitutes. People definitely overestimate how difficult it is to go completely vegetarian!
This obviously doesn't work for everyone, but I've made my Friday night Shabbat meal into once-a-week meat time. Tying the consumption of meat to religious observance has helped me value it more while not feeling like I'm giving it up entirely.
Edit: Was typing this over coffee, meant "underestimate," not "overestimate!"
People definitely overestimate how difficult it is to go completely vegetarian!
I don't agree, because I think that my palate fundamentally differs. But for people like you, or my husband, theirs does not. My husband eats a lot of meatless meals by proxy, but at a certain point, he and all the meat eaters I know say that beans or the 'fake meat' or most things just... don't do it for them. And I think small, sustainable steps are far far better than lofty ones that will never stick
Ah yes, sorry, I wasn't disagreeing with you -- I meant it's more difficult for people who grew up with palates like your husband's to go completely vegetarian than people who grew up with a different meal structure.
Edit: I just realized I typed "overestimate" when I meant "underestimate!" Totally the opposite meaning.
I think this is a really good point for honesty anything in life. Went vegetarian a year ago and have introduced so many amazing foods into my diet that I enjoy so much, I rarely miss meat. When people talk about "removing" or "adding" things from/to their life, it's deceptive wording, because nobody eats more or less food (for the most part) or has more or less time in their day, it's really just a change or replacement for aspect of your lifestyle. I didn't "remove" meat from my diet, I replaced it with healthier, and tastier imo, non-meat foods.
Honestly the reason I think so many people that try to give up meat "miss" it is because they are trying to substitute it instead of just eating from cultures that are less meat focused or using something else to "fake" meat. Lots of Indian food is already vegetarian, there's an an insane number of egg dishes etc that are all delicious and aren't trying to pretend they are meat.
This is exactly my perspective, too. To me, I don't need a substitute because nothing is "missing" for me. People get used to that gut-busting fullness that happens when you eat too much protein with little fiber, which is what meat is, and it can be hard to feel full without that feeling. Or at least that's been the disconnect between me and every meat eater that says that they don't feel "full" or satisfied without meat
Yup. I eat to gut-bust level every night. Learned it partly from my dad who used to pile my plate full of food, and I was taught to always clean my plate.
Somehow I'm not overweight, but if I ever stop working out I'm probably screwed.
I don't get this perspective or the stigma attached to meat substitutes. I went vegan cold turkey like 14 years ago and never looked back. I eat the fuck out of fake meat. It's not because I miss actual meat. I doubt I have any real concept of what it tastes like anymore. It's because I like a lot of fake meat products. They have nice textures and flavors and they are often protein rich. They also tend to make sense for the types of things I like to cook and eat.
I love Indian food and Thai food and all sorts of ethnic food that is veg-forward, but I'll fuck up a vegan cheesesteak any day of the week.
I think missing meat varies from person to person and trying to blame it on them doing veg*nism the "wrong" way is bullshit.
That's why you like it, you haven't had the real thing in 14 years. A lot of false meat products are tasty but they aren't meat. If you are trying to make it actually taste like meat you are going to be disappointed.
I think there is a subtle distinction to be made here. I think it's fine for meat substitutes to attempt to mimic meat as closely as possible, and I enjoy those that do. I also think it's fine for them to not be close at all but fulfill similar culinary or dietary roles.
In either case, I think they can be appreciated for their own sake without being tainted by comparison. In many ways, the things people associate with the quality of particular food are arbitrary.
Like someone can make a delicious, fatty, creamy sauce that is every bit as good as fondue (Vedge in Philly does this), but it might not have a dairy taste to it. It might be lacking a specific flavor note that people associate with real fondue, but that note isn't what makes fondue good, it's just what makes it familiar.
I think if people could get past the expectation that substitutes should taste precisely like their meat counterparts, they would realize that they still have all of the good qualities those products have (fattiness, saltiness, savoriness, texture, aroma, protein, juiciness, etc.), even if they are lacking those arbitrary familiar ones that don't determine whether or not something is good.
Totally. My vegetarian and omni friends turn their noses up at my cheese because it tastes different, but it fills the gap in a sandwich where dairy would have been perfectly. Although I suppose I had it a bit easier, just going from vegetarian to vegan.
I'm trying to go for a more plant based diet and my only goal is to find dishes that I like without having to resort to fake meat. Fake meat costs just about the same as regular meat. Indian is a good one. Curries are very filling. Stir fries and pasta as well. Hummus and cowboy caviar are pretty great snacks too.
I agree with this, but I have noticed in the last 2 years since going vegan that the meat substitutes have gotten a lot better (or maybe I'm just discovering ones I like). Beyond burger and MorningStar/Gardein chicken patties taste pretty darn close to the real thing.
There are really great-tasting "fake meat" items. Brands like Quorn, Gardein, Beyond Meat, Tofurkey...it may not be exactly the same taste/texture, but if you want to cut down on meat while maintaining that thing you feel is "missing", these are great alternatives.
Linda McCartney products were the key to my transition to (mostly) vegetarian. Now I don't feel the need to have a specific meat substitute in a meal, but they helped me early on.
I guess I don't agree, but then again, I have literally 0 taste for meat. Not only are the fake 'em kind really full of, well, fake stuff and tons of packaging, but I fundamentally don't think anything is missing from hearty meatless meals, and have an aversion to meat taste/ texture.
For someone that likes meat and does think that meatless meals are missing something, or that the fake stuff doesn't scratch the itch, I don't think going vegetarian is a good approach, personally. I think it's more sustainable to eat more ethically sourced meat in that case
This is a really good point! I’ve tried to go vegetarian so many times but I really miss the taste of meat, so instead of being veggie for a few months then eating loads of meat for a few months, I just eat veggie 95% of the time. The 5% Really satisfies my cravings and I’m eating a lot less meat this way - I might not be helping as many animal lives as I can, or saving the environment enough, but i’m doing something :)
You essentially have to detox from it. Not literally, but you may have to get over an addiction hump before you will stop missing it. Took me a few years.
This is a reasonable, measured approach and it's what I always recommend to folks looking to make the switch.
It's easier to "give up" meat if you acknowledge that it didn't belong to you in the first place.
I'm really not trying to harangue you. It sounds like you're putting in a good faith effort, and that's commendable.
But the notion that not eating meat is a sacrifice, or that it is something that you are giving of yourself.... I'm sorry, it's just not true.
It's like if the chancellor of Germany came out and said "Man, it's been really tough on us not to engage in a Holocaust for the past 80 or so years."
It depends on what you buy but all the fake meat products I use are mostly just soy + peas/beans and sometimes with a bit of wheat. It's not really any different to just having some tofu. They definitely don't taste or feel like meat though, and I wouldn't want them to. I just use them because they're convenient.
fake stuff
I don't get this attitude. What exactly do you think is fake food in meat substitutes?
Most of the good ones are made of some combination of gluten (you literally get this buy kneading flour and rinsing it with water) and soy (a legume). Just because the textures produced are unfamiliar to you doesn't mean there is "fake stuff" in there.
For someone that likes meat and does think that meatless meals are missing something, or that the fake stuff doesn't scratch the itch, I don't think going vegetarian is a good approach, personally. I think it's more sustainable to eat more ethically sourced meat in that case
You can think this, but that doesn't make it true. Producing meat requires like 7 times the resources as plants. It would be really difficult to make up that difference eating a plant-based diet. It also says nothing about the animal exploitation aspect.
Fair enough, all good points. Thanks for the corrections on the difference between eating plants and meat - I was talking about other types of substitutes, not plant-based ones. But I have also found that there is a type of vegetarian with whom I fundamentally don't align, and it's best to just instead say "you do you!"
Sure, I agree with your first point. The fake meat isn't 100% appetizing to me either. However if somebody is interested in eating less meat for environmental reasons, but doesn't want to give up the taste/substance/portion of their meal, I think there are some really great alternatives.
Fair enough. All the meat eaters I've talked to who like the taste/ texture/ addition of meat in their meals, IME, say that the fake stuff is, well, fake and not a good substitute. For me, it's all nasty, either too meaty or tastes like a sponge. And the meat-eaters I know don't think it's a reasonable substitute because it tastes very clearly fake, and is very processed and packaged and arguably not better environmentally.
Then again, no one has a perfect approach, and the willingness to try it out, IMO, is a good thing
Most of the brand's you suggested, an other obviously, are ok. Hell they don't taste that bad even. But I always feel hollow after I eat them. Like I tried to do something but half assed it. Idk it's hard to explain but it doesn't quite offer a filling meat substitute for me. I'm curious to see how lab grown meat will develop as I'm willing to try but I'm gonna go in skeptical of it.
I love quorn. Sometimes an item that is similar suffices because it tastes good. Does a fake chicken nugget taste like chicken? No. That’s not the point. It’s a substitute.
I just try to eat wild caught fish instead of farm grown meat, it fills in that gap, it's healthier than red meat, and better for the environment than red meat
This seems like one of the more honest approaches to Vegetarianism for me. I'll be honest - it'll never be me, I enjoy meat to much! That said as I've made an effort to get healthier my diet has grown in veg and decreased in meat/grain consumption.
So often you hear 'mushroom and bean burgers taste just the same!' 'Tofu sausages are indistinguishable!'
I mean people can tell themselves whatever they like, but personally I always felt if your vegetarian journey was going out of your way to find meat substitutes instead embracing vegetables as they are....I think you're both misunderstanding it a little..and it's gonna be tough.
And telling me Tofu is going to taste just like beef is just....wrong.
I don't find I 'miss meat' in the meals I have that ARE meat free because the veg is delicious when allowed to just be what it is, instead of some sort of meat substitute with additives and flavourings to fake meat taste/texture.
Plus a lot of things are really not good for you. I recall watching something where a bunch of vegetarians were very surprised to learn a vegetarian 'burger' can often be less healthy (in terms of calories/fat/sugars etc) than a regular beef one. They assume by virtue of being vegetarian it MUST be healthier.
I always felt if your vegetarian journey was going out of your way to find meat substitutes instead embracing vegetables as they are....I think you're both misunderstanding it a little..and it's gonna be tough.
I think you are the one misunderstanding it. Ethical vegetarianism and veganism aren't about dietary preferences. They are about reducing your role in causing suffering to animals as far as that is possible.
I'll never understand the implications of hypocrisy vegans get from meat eaters when they eat substitutes. You not seeing that appeal of fake meat has no bearing on the ethical validity of a vegan diet.
Plus a lot of things are really not good for you. I recall watching something where a bunch of vegetarians were very surprised to learn a vegetarian 'burger' can often be less healthy (in terms of calories/fat/sugars etc) than a regular beef one.
Can you name any? Most decent meat substitutes are made of a combination of wheat or soy protein plus flavoring. There isn't anything unhealthy about that.
I don't think I've come across a veggie burger that is worse than a beef burger. Red meat is literally classified as a carcinogen.
Whatever your reasoning for giving up meat. If you just spend the rest of your life trying to find something 'that tastes and feels like meat but isn't meat' you're going to be disappointed.
If you want to give up meat, whatever. But just embrace veg. Why do you have to have a 'bean burger' why not just beans? Why do you require 'vegetable sausages' What's wrong with the roasted veg as they are. Why does your Tofu block have to be carved into the shape of a chicken? Just eat it in cubes, it makes literally no difference to taste.
And if you need that specific shape or structure or whatever (to eat a hot dog for example) stop trying to convince me that it 'totally tastes just like a frankfurter!' Just be like, look it's the right shape and size to be chucked on a BBQ and put into a bun, but it's made from these vegetables and tastes like that'
It's when vegetarians go 'the substitutes taste just as good as the real thing'. No. They don't. Stop trying to sell it on that point. I will eat vegetarian food and it may well be delicious, but at no point am I ever going to go 'yep this is just like a steak!'
I believe the program I was watching was comparing burgers at one of those open air food market things between a vegetarian burger and a meat one. They also compared McD's burgers. Now yeah that's hardly healthy to start with! But there were several people who said they sometimes chose the veggie burger over a big mac or whatever because they felt it was a healthier option if they were already getting a Mcd's.
I have no idea what goes into most of these things, and I'm sure there is more healthy vegetarian food and less healthy. I mean at the end of the day no matter what base ingredients you start with if you add a bunch of high fat/high sugar stuff to it to make it taste nice it's going to be high in calories and fat and sugar.
Yeah, loads of things are classed as carcinogens
Alcohol and of course smoking (yet many many vegetarians both drink and smoke) Hormonal Birth Control Air pollution UV rays, from the sun and tanning beds. Salt can technically cause cancer.
Yet people don't think twice about taking the pill, going outside, laying in the sun, having a glass of wine or eating salt.
And being loosely classed as carcinogenic is not the only measure of whether something is good for you or not If a veggie meal is high in sugar and like 1500 calories it's definitely worse for you than a meat alternative that contains less sugar and is only 1000 calories. So the meat product MIGHT give a slight increase in my chance to MAYBE get cancer when I'm 70. That veggie meal is for sure going to increase my risk of putting on weight and getting other obesity related problems.
Some analgesic have components that are classes are carcinogenic- we still take them for aches and pains. Formaldahyde is carcinogenic and yet it's used in vaccinations to preserve them and we have no issues with this because it's small amounts. Oxygen is carcinogenic - we breath that every day.
The evidence for red meat being carcinogenic is not particularly strong (it tends to get lumped in with processed meats, which are worse for you), and there's actually a fair amount to show that in a small amounts we benefit from it.
Like most things excess is the problem.
I agree we have a problem with over consumption of red meat but simply stating 'its labelled as carcinogenic' isn't helpful. That doesn't provide the whole picture, it doesn't provide context.
I recently started to cut back on meat. I went one week without it and now I’m trying to taper off my consumption of it. While stand ins such as tofu and black beans can taste good they aren’t 100% fill ins for meat, and that’s okay. I just hate when people say “It’s so EASY to replace meat in both taste and texture.” I’m perfectly fine with sacrificing some texture and taste differences but people who try to sell vegetarianism/vegan as on par with meat consumption are just wrong. It’s definitely more difficult and requires much more attentiveness on consumption.
I'd venture to guess most meat eaters are missing a ton of fiber and certain other nutrients in their diets, but you never hear them talk about missing those.
If you don't consider animals to be food, you don't miss anything. Embracing the idea that meat comes from an animal, and animals are no more a food item than rocks or wood chips, can radically change your perspective overnight.
There's even a term for the idea that animals are food: "carnism". https://youtu.be/ao2GL3NAWQU
You sound like the type of vegetarian I would not only invite for a meal, but actually make sure I would have a few meat free dishes around for. Mine is a household that starts green beans with 'fry some bacon'. I don't know anything that tastes as good as bacon that grows as a vegetable. I don't mind vegetarians, I do mind the 'preaching'.
Hah, I've been eating sides my whole life, and have adapted well. I've also literally never been hungry at even things like BBQs, and find some vegetarians to be really quite intolerable about available food. If you don't want people to think you're douchey, you can't be douchey, a lesson I wish I could convey to more vegetarians
You are a real sweetheart and very kind and understanding. I try not to be so confrontational, but people who want to guilt me into not eating what I enjoy rub me the wrong way - it brings out the douche in me.
People who simply like to eat something else... hey, they leave more for me, so I gladly share and make a bit of an effort for them, so they can enjoy, too.
The taste/texture isn't what bothers me. I feel physically weak and drained when I don't have meat in my diet. I tried being vegetarian, but I had to eat nonstop and was still losing weight and feeling terrible, and my stomach always felt uneasy.
Added meat back, and I can eat just one or two meals a day and feel great, have a healthy weight, got my energy back, and my stomach feels good. I'm not saying being vegetarian is bad. It just doesn't work for me.
I hear that a lot, for sure. The thing about meat is it's all protein and very very little fiber. So the "full" feeling is very often from lack of fiber, and it's hard to acclimate to not feeling that, IME. My husband says the same thing, though, so I know that observation well.
I think a lot of things work for various people, and you can eat Cheetos all day as a vegetarian, which is supremely unhealthy, just like eating only meat and potatoes is. I think there is a lot of hysteria surrounding ALL diets, meat/veg included. I knew far too many vegetarians in college who didn't really know "how" to do it, so they ate grains and carbs - that's not healthier!
Lean meat doesn't make me feel very good. I like meat with some fat on it.
In my opinion, sugar is the enemy way more than meat or veggies or anything else we eat. No candy, no soda, and you'll probably be fine.
Interestingly, I watched a TedTalk where these researchers continuously monitored people's glucose levels for a week, then had a computer decide what would be their optimal diet and what would be their worst diet, and it was totally different stuff person to person. For some people, rice made their blood sugar spike like crazy, while ice cream didn't do anything. For others, it was the opposite. Eat rice and their blood sugar is consistent, but ice cream would spike it. It's made me really want to be tested like that to find out exactly what foods mess me up and what foods my body handles with ease.
As someone who is currently trying to lose fat and gain muscle, I'm doing an hour of HIIT cardio a day, and also lifting. All I want when I'm done is meat. Doesn't matter what sort. And if I don't get any well fuck me I am dead the next day. I'm having bean burgers for dinner this evening only because I don't have work tomorrow. I'm trying to cut down the amount of meat I eat due to environmental reasons, but I'm burning so many calories at the moment; my body is crying out for protein and fat. It's hard to get the same amount with veggie food, I know the feeling about feeling full and bloated all too well.
It's difficult to lose and gain at the same time. Losing weight is easy, just eat less. Gaining muscle is easy, just pick up heavy stuff and put it back down.
Doing them simultaneously is tough though.
I had hip surgery around 9 weeks ago (FAI removal and labrum repair), so I've been hitting the bikes, and doing upper body stuff. I've dropped 1.5kg in the past month.
Gosh, I hope I don't have to have that done. I'm going through some hip issues right now, but my broke ass can't afford to really find out what the problem is lol.
Bear in mind what he's saying though, unless you're doing something specifically in the interest of repairing your hip.
That much cardio every day, plus weightlifting on top is gonna work you up an appetite. The working out isn't what will lose you weight.
As much as I felt the same way as you, wanting to just "fix up" my whole body at once, it works much better for most of us to tackle fat and muscle separately.
Not so much weight loss as fat loss is what I'm trying to achieve. I'm 5'11 and weigh 93kg.
Yeah thats what I meant. I tend to use weight and fat interchangeably. Not many folks out there trying to lose muscle.
Just make sure your diet is your primary focus then, as far as fat loss goes. The exercise does a million good things for your body, but fat loss isn't really one of them.
I would like to eat less meat, but almost all my favorite meals contain meat. No, actually, the meat is my favorite part. And vegan / vegetarian meals either cost a freaking fortune if you buy them premade, or take ages to prepare and cook if you make them at home. It's really annoying.
In my decades as a vegetarian, and my marriage to an omnivore, this is not true. Meat is almost always the priciest part of the meal, and cooking without it takes no longer. I can't speak to your favorite meals, but I made my husband and me a steak, scalloped potatoes, and vegetable dinner, and the steak was the most expensive part, and that's true for many meals.
That said, you're not in any way obligated to eat less meat if you like it, there is a lot of hysteria and myth around what people ought to be doing to save the planet or their wallets or their waistlines
Idk why you're getting downvoted for a simple observation. It is really just a matter of perspective. when you think "vegan" think about meals that are already vegan: rice, beans/lentils, veggies, grains and then think of what you can make: pastas, soups, stirfries, curries, pizza, tacos, burgers, casseroles, sweets like ice-cream, cookies, cupcakes.
There is honestly a comparable vegan replacement for anything you can think of under the sun. The sweets and deserts are to die for, you would never in a million years know some of them were vegan.
Omitting the meat from a pasta or stir fry dish (while maybe adding a couple more vegetables) is way easier than cooking with meat.
I'm not completely vegetarian but I eat very little meat and I've found it to both be way cheaper and way easier.
That's a great first step, that's how I started too. Now try eating only two non-veggie meals per week. I slowly realized that It had been months since I had bought meat.
I’ve been hooked on stir fry lately. Just pick up a bag of those Asian mixes and cook it up and add sauce. Even better over white rice, but still awesome, cheap, and makes me feel healthier than pounding down some fast food burgers.
Have you tried meat replacements? Gardein makes fabulous replacements for chicken and Beyond Meat makes a really good plant-based burger that tastes a lot like meat. Meat replacements have come a long way in recent years!
At the same time, though, livestock farming is both directly and indirectly responsible for a huge amount of environmental degradation and contributes to the evolution of antibiotic-resistant bacteria, which impact quality of life even if you don't give a shit about climate change.
To say nothing of the ethical problem of keeping living things in miserable living conditions and eventually killing them for our own use
It's hard, culturally there is a stigma that meat should be a part of each meal. It is less so now than I feel it used to be, but it is still there.
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Oreos are vegan
tell me more about this lovely vegan treat.
well they're vegan so they're healthy what else do u need to know
Well I mean look at OP's post even. Anytime someone makes some sort of vegetarian/vegan argument it ALWAYS starts with "I'm not a crazy vegan or anything but..." because anything else gets downvoted to oblivion or mocked.
Sometimes simply saying "I'd like to go to a restaurant with vegetarian options" triggers the fuck out of people straight into spouting "We EVOLVED to eat meat, lions eat meat! That's life!" without me saying literally anything else.
Lions murder their young, ducks rape eachother constantly, and most birds poop wherever they please - The next bitch who gives me an unprompted 'evolution' lecture cuz I don't wanna eat at Outback is going to get a facefull of zebra ass because 'that's what lions do'.
It's one of those things that even people in educated circles are very MAGA-y about.
People can't help but get personally offended when you talk about veganism. They think you're saying that you're a bad person if you eat meat, so they try to convince each other that somehow eating a sentient animal DOESN'T hurt it.
It's like.... going vegan isn't about humans, It's about animals and what they experience.
I usually leave the moral argument out because of the stigma, but people react very similarly to environmental arguments.
When people ask I just tell them I'm vegan for moral reasons and then don't tell them what they are. People already know what those moral reasons are whether they like it or not. I think it's more effective for them to do the legwork to cruelty in their own mind than coming from my mind.
Yeah it usually doesn't help to talk about the ethics of the issue, unfortunately.
I love your username btw
You can tell even this cautiously worked “I’m not a vegetarian but maybe eat less meat?” post is getting downvoted to shit because answers that have zero to do with ethics (“stop basing your personality on things that outrage you”) are above it.
Man, people look at me funny when they find out my girlfriend and I try to do vegetarian/vegan dinners on weekdays. It’s so ingrained that meat should be a part of every meal that the first thing people usually say when they find out is “why are you not eating meat?” I’m not “not eating meat” I’m eating less in an attempt to make more ethical decisions regarding my diet. I think deep down people react the way they do to vegetarianism/Veganism is because on some level it forces them to evaluate their choices and they become uncomfortable with it.
lions murder their young, ducks rape eachother constantly, and most birds poop wherever they please - The next bitch who gives me an unprompted 'evolution' lecture cuz I don't wanna eat at Outback is going to get a facefull of zebra ass because 'that's what lions do'.
Also, when was the last time they chased down a zebra and killed and ate it raw with their bare, clawless hands and puny little teeth?
When was the last time their mouth watered from seeing a cow?
It's because they're insecure about their way of life. They don't want to change. They don't want anyone to point out any flaw in the way that they eat. They want to have protein in every meal because that's what they've been doing their whole lives.
And you're right, it's something that even good and decent people are weird about. My dad is a great person. I love him very much and I think most people who meet him like him. But if you say something about veganism or vegetarianism, he'll go all "that's not how real men eat!" It's very out of character for him.
I always like to remind people that the day they can run down an animal, kill it with their bare hands, get through the flesh with just their teeth and eat it raw, is the day they can compare their meat consumption to lions. Like, have your reasons but that’s such a poor comparison.
You seem pretty angry about groceries.
Edit: I guess plenty of angry people downvoting this when I'm just commenting on a relevant username :/
I upvoted you!
That is probably because all restaurants have vegan options so it doesn’t need to be said unless you are trying to bring attention to your lifestyle.
Yeah no. Sure I can eat french fries and a generic salad everytime I go out, but fuck that.
There's a huge difference between "having vegan items on the menu" and "having vegan options".
I'm gonna be honest, now I'm curious what zebra tastes like....
Quick Google tells me it it's legal to eat (only 1 of the 3 breeds of) zebra, and apparently it's "sweeter than beef," the edible part comes from the zebras ass, and it is very lean, similar to chicken
This totally goes against the sentiment of the thread here, but I keep a list of different animals I've eaten because I want to see just how many species I can chew my way through, so I'd be very excited to be given the opportunity to try a zebra steak and zebra burger. And I'm not crazed ravenous carnivore or anything—I honestly don't even eat meat all that often—but I do think animals are pretty tasty.
The fact that im very aware of the meat/dairy industry and do nothing to change my habits means that I’m forced to admit to that I value efficiency in production over the feelings of a cow. I’m okay with that, and I understand that there’s are plenty of people who are not personally okay with that and also some portion who might think I’m a gasp bad person because I think that way.
Spoiler, no matter what you do, there are people who will disagree. If you feel threatened by their existence, it’s probably because you have a weak defense for your idealogies.
Point being, people who recoil at the thought of vegans probably are just trying to seperate themselves from/ignore the underlying ethical contingencies of eating meat.
This so much. I’m vegan and my friend has the eating habits of a 5 year old, think chicken fingers and hamburgers. We often travel to a city a few hours away where my favorite restaurant is. Any time I suggest it she says “there’s nothing for me to eat there”. Anything, literally anything. And then she counter argues with “I wouldn’t make you eat meat” ummmm that’s not how this works. Her husband started eating vegan when we all go out. Gives her a serious case of the butthurts.
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Trader Joe's chicken tenders are literally more flavorful than any fast food chicken tender I've ever had. They're so good. The texture isn't really close to chicken but the taste is amazing. My boyfriend who is trying to transition to vegan but has a harder time than I did said he actually prefers them to real chicken.
Quorn chicken nuggets. Meatless, soy-free, and amazing. My "meat is life" dad tried one and loved it. Still doesn't know they aren't meat.
Going to look for those tonight.
Trader Joe's has tons of good stuff without animal products. They had this coconut whipped cream I bought a can of and loved but it is so good it's been out of stock since Christmas.
Sounds really good. I'll try to find it. Been trying to go vegan. :)
Being accused of being a picky eater for being vegetarian really does make me mad, I eat pretty much anything without meat as long as there is no olives (I hate them so much), I try to find something in every restaurant I go, even if it's just french fries and a side salad, but yeah, I'm the picky eater of the group.
Omg are we the same person? I'm also a vegetarian and I also hate olives! Somehow a lot of veg options have olives :/ I'm not a picky eater, olives are just gross
Same here! Vegan and just can't stand them. We should form a club.
There’s a few things I’m super picky about. Haha I told her that she could have a salad and French fries at that restaurant. She said that’s a shitty meal, I just said “I KNOWWWWW”
I'd almost want to be petty and give her an impossible burger without saying it's vegan. I bet she wouldn't notice the difference. Then tell her she just ate a vegan burger and watch her mind implode. Sadly it would be mean to not give someone informed consent about what they're eating.
It sounds like she knows that the way she eats is bad but feels so uncomfortable about it that she'll do mental gymnastics to push it out and unto it being other peoples problem. There's nothing one can do about someone who puts their head in the sand.
Exactly. She says she has food issues. I’m like, wut? Anyone that happily eats a hotdog is not that concerned with the actual ingredients of her food. Once her husband ordered a vegan burger (at a place that you go up to the counter) and when he came back she grilled him to make sure he didn’t order her the vegan option. He didn’t. She didn’t want to like it and then have me say I told you so. She’s my friend but there’s a lot of hard eye rolls around her.
There could be something else going on. It's not fun to have issues with food. I have food allergies so I'm always refusing food that I don't know what's in it. You have enough bad experiences with food and people learn to be extremely careful about it.
It’s not allergies. She just thinks it’s gross.
But I love tempeh.
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I know, I just wanted tempeh to know that someone loves it and will keep eating it regardless.
I made tempeh molé the other night. I may also love tempeh.
I’ve been vegan going on a year now. In my mind and the privacy of my own home, I feel ethical, confident, and happy about my decision. But the stigma is strong enough that I usually feel embarrassed or ashamed of it out in the real world, especially with people I know and haven’t told yet. Very few times have I actually said out loud “I’m vegan.”
There was a guy at work who was constantly vocal at lunch about “vegan food” being gross and miserable to eat, just because it’s labeled as vegan. To name a few gross vegan or vegan-friendly foods most omnivores regularly have in their diets already: bread, pasta, rice, beans, nuts, sauces, corn, mashed or baked potatoes, steamed vegetables, salad, apples, bananas, french fries, pickles, tortillas, chips, Oreos, oatmeal, cereal, soda, alcohol, coffee, tea....
I'd recommend joining your local vegan activist group. Knowing other vegans, and talking to strangers about veganism is great for building confidence and learning to stand up for what you believe. You might eventually get to the point where you are perfectly comfortable talking about your ethics with people who you know, who's opinion of you is important.
I remember that post.
If you honestly can't eat a freaking pasta dish just because you know it's vegetarian, something's wrong.
Dude, 95% of the time I can't even find a fucking vegetarian salad at a supermarket or restaurant. That's insane. Let alone vegan...apparently every pre-fab salad has to have egg and/or cheese and/or ranch/caesar dressing.
Even Whole Food's and Trader Joe's isn't exempt. Sometimes I go and they are sold out of vegan salads, sometimes there's one choice. But otherwise, it's off to the salad bar to make my own.
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I was actually quite surprised that a Whole Foods I was at the other day didn't carry a single dairy-free Halo Top, yet carried all of the dairy varieties. The Stop & Shop down the street carried several dairy free ones. Wtf?
I am legit angry about the idea of plain tofu on a salad bar.
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That's just so wrong. They could put some nice marinated baked tofu on there and I would load up.
It's so weird because I'm sure these relatives have, at some point in their lives, eaten a cheese pizza or a bean burrito for dinner without worrying about not getting enough meat. Once you call it "vegetarian," there's a stigma attached.
That's the problem. When people hear vegetarian the jokes about salads aren't just out of spite (that too though). Its because they legitimately don't know what they eat. I think someone should make an infographic with information on how to make 50 easy vegetarian meals that would be things that anyone would be okay eating. That would help a lot. Don't include the word vegetarian on it. Just say meatless.
I've thought about this too! Most Western breakfasts are vegetarian: toast, eggs, pancakes, cereal, oatmeal, yogurt, fruit. So are beloved comfort foods: cheese pizza, grilled cheese and tomato soup, mac and cheese, chips and salsa/dip, PB&J or cheese sandwiches. Soups, salads, stir fries, and pasta dishes are easily prepared to be a vegetarian-friendly or even vegan way without there being any sense of something "missing" (no one talks about "vegetarian mac and cheese" or "vegetarian butternut squash soup" because they don't expect meat there in the first place.) Dessert is almost always vegetarian. But the second you mention vegetarian food, people act like they've never eaten a meal without a prominent animal protein in their lives.
Honestly, the stigma is around the people behind the food. Vegans in particular. Vegetarians get poked fun at, but people genuinely hate vegans.
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Which is still crazy. I'm from Portland, OR. We're a vegan hub and I can still count on one hand the amount of preachy vegans I've known (most I met in high school when people are like that).
You've still met them though. Everyone has and it puts people off. Plus you're in an area where being a vegan is probably not all that out there. In some cases the only vegans people have met are those exact types. I know I've met some and they generally aren't fun to be around.
I don't know if it's so much of an inner moral conflict as it is not wanting to deal with someone different. I'm a teetotaler and the amount of shit I've received in my life when people find out I don't drink is astounding.
I'm vegetarian and the only way people find out is when I don't eat meat when we go out for food unless someone asks what I like.
I have met so many people who go on about how we're supposed to eat meat or that lions eat meat and it is natural or the worst are the people who are like "but don't you miss bacon and steak?" then make weird sounds while eating their burger going "mmm meat". I have met way more patronizing meat eaters who are trying to brag about eating meat than I do of vegans or vegetarians.
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There's a big reason there's the "found the vegan" game online. Vegans make themselves very vocally known more than a lot of other groups and when they do it, it's usually in the form of a direct attack. It's not a "Oh sorry, but I don't eat meat" but we've all seen the comments of the angry vegans trying to claim a moral high ground while at the same time damning and viscerally attacking someone who was doing nothing to antagonize them. A group does that enough and you better believe they are going to become a caricature.
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The jokes are frequently not prompted by anything and you must know that.
I'd say they were more a result of the preaching than the other way around.
I have honestly met more "I'm superior for not drinking" types than I have preachy vegans.
And I've had the opposite experience. I've never once met a preachy teetotaler. I have known many preachy vegans.
Welcome to my family...
Thankfully, I haven't lived with them in a long time. :)
So much of what we eat is vegan? Not sure I've ever eaten a meal that has no animal product at all in it...
There's a whole lot of people that jut don't like the taste of a lot of different veggies. Same goes for mushrooms. I can understand the sentiment that a wedding party should be a celebration, and no one wants to force themselves to eat something they don't like at a celebration. THAT BEING SAID, why the fuck does it matter what that person's FAMILY wants? IT'S THEIR WEDDING! If you don't like it, don't eat it! I actually do agree with you, but it takes a lot for people to overcome the gag reflex when eating something they truly find gross.
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I agree, totally, that's kinda what I was getting at
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It's free food. You'll live.
Where did I say I wouldn't...
Are you just completely unaware of the existence of idioms?
The poster was talking about serving things like mushroom pasta, not some weird tempeh dish trying to trick you into thinking it's duck or something
Sorry but if I went to a wedding that was serving mushroom pasta I'd be pretty pissed. In fact I can tell you that a lot of people I know would send the dish back without eating it.
EDIT: Wow, lots of triggered vegans.
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What if you find mushrooms disgusting? I don't care for them myself. I also don't eat pasta because it's empty calories and it never tasted good to me. I'd argue that one could have options that were meat free but that's not one that would appeal to me.
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Being a good host means you serve something that your guests will eat. That's why most weddings give a vegetarian option. Forcing people to choose between not eating, not going or a mushroom pasta dish is just bad hosting.
Didn't even attempt to read what you were just told, did you?
"Oh no, I got invited to a free party with a free meal and I hate it so much that I'm going to be a baby and make a show that I don't like it!"
I have someone staying with me who just moved up to Wisconsin from Texas. I mentioned that I like lentil soup and she perked up and said "Oh, I have a family recipe for lentil soup! It calls for one cup of lentils and 3 pounds of sausage.". She said that she ate about 5 pounds of meat per week. According to this article from 2016, the average American now eats roughly 193 pounds of beef, pork and/or chicken a year (or more than 3.7 pounds a week), up from roughly 184 pounds in 2012.
People eating more meat is a non-issue to me. Putting 3 pounds of sausage in lentil soup, on the other hand...
This is so crazy. One time at my bf's grandma's house we were gonna order a pizza. We usually get one with all veggies (we eat meat but are fine with having meals without, and love our vegetables) She said she wanted some of our pizza, but once she found out it was all veggies and no meat she turned it down because "it's not substantial enough".
It's bread, cheese, and veggies, how is that not substantial enough for food?? Like 4 pieces of pepperoni are magically going to turn it into a substantial meal??
That's insane.
It depends where you live. But yes, often people don't consider a meal complete unless it has meat in it, which is utterly ridiculous.
Honestly half the time my meals are just a bunch of different side dishes and it's like eating at a buffet all the time. Since there's no risk of undercooking/contamination it's really easy to cook multiple different dishes, just throw them in the pan together or one after another.
And the main part of each meal, at that.
I keep pretty strict kosher and kosher meat is really expensive comparatively, so I usually only have meat on the weekends (for the Sabbath). People get so astounded that I don't eat meat every single day at every meal, it's crazy.
People are starting to realize that blindly following culture is not good.
There are a lot of things you can cook where you won't really notice the difference, like chili. It might not taste exactly the same, but it's just as good and looks identical.
TBT to my early days of being a vegetarian and people getting mad at me for "fooling" them into eating meat free chili. Good times.
How dare you give me delicious AND healthy food for free! How dare you!
Can you imagine being angry that a food you enjoyed lacked an ingredient? I'd be stoked, eat more for the same calories
I'm not vegan, but I make a vegan black bean, corn, and rice chili. It's delicious, cheap, and has a complete amino profile.
It really isn't that hard to at least reduce the use of animal products. Every little bit helps!
I've switched to making vegan chili too, despite not being vegetarian. It's less work, cheaper, and I add enough peppers that I can't taste the difference anyway.
I just add fake meat crumbles for texture instead of ground beef, and the chili tastes exactly the same.
Hell you can buy vegan chili at trader Joe's, it says vegetarian but there's no animal products in it at all. It's delicious. I'm always surprised at how little I miss meat and animal products. Like a BRC burrito from el pollo loco tastes pretty much the same, just the texture is a bit different. Plus it's easy to order food at a restaurant or to go without cheese and then add your favorite cheese replacement if you have one, or just sprinkle on some nutritional yeast. I do that with any cheese and also anywhere that charges extra for avocado. I pretty much never eat in a restaurant though, either cook at home or takeout
TVP in chili is awesome if you want the texture of ground burger in it!
Sorry to ask but what is TVP?
textured vegetable protein - here is info: http://www.onegreenplanet.org/vegan-food/the-low-down-on-textured-vegetable-protein-with-product-picks-and-recipes/
Psst.... try some rice in there next time!
I would, but I am avoiding carbs as this ( very low carb / intermittent ketogenic ) helps me avoid migraines.
Sounds like a good suggestion, otherwise; prob helpful to others. Thanks!
The thing is that dishes like chili are already reducing meat consumption by dilution. Compare serving 4 chicken breasts in a meal than serving 2 chicken thighs in a casserole or soup.
This also has the advantage of being affordable, so unlike so many other strategies for reduced consumption, it's available to the poor. (they're already eating this way anyhow).
The best substitution strategy would target dishes like hamburgers, steaks, fillets, and roasts. Unfortunately, the substitutions for these dishes are almost always less tasty and more expensive.
Uh... chili is not a won't notice the missing meat kinda dish.
If you notice the difference, you're not using enough chili.
If you don't notice the difference, you need to cut down your cigarette consumption.
It is the dish where people don't notice fake meat crumbles
LOL, no. They notice, they just don't realize why it tastes a bit off.
We could still eat meat each meal, but like a third or a fourth of the current portion.
I'm Catholic so on Fridays during Lent I don't eat meat. It's one of the hardest things for me to do.
Where do you live? I live in one of the most vegetarian friendly cities in the world, so I don't really understand this stigma.
Honestly, living in Portland has helped me eat less meat in general. There's just so many vegetarian options, and a lot of times, they sound better than the meat option. Like, there's a local wings place, their vegan wings are SO delicious. They taste like pulled pork, I exclusively order them instead of actual chicken.
You get over that pretty quickly. Most restaurants have at least one or two vegetarian menu items and anyone who gives you shit for not eating meat is just an asshole lol
My immigrant parents definitely feel this way.
I feel like different people's bodies need different things.
I tried going vegetarian, and it was horrible. I felt like I had to eat all the time, and I was always out of energy and losing weight despite shoveling food down all the time. I added back meat, and I've felt great since. Basically greens and meat, and aside from a rock climbing injury, I've never felt healthier.
Gotta eat denser stuff like nuts, pasta, grains, legumes, rice and potatos. Meat is dense on calories relative to fruit/veg.
Even with denser stuff, I didn't feel right. Maybe I'll try to ease into something more vegetarian-ish and keep a close eye on what makes me feel good and what makes me feel like garbage.
Good luck mate, I know a lot of people experience similar issues, it takes a bit of effort to figure it out how to adapt.
Thanks. If I can eat less meat and still feel good, I'd like to, but if it takes eating meat for me to feel strong and healthy, that's what I'm going to do.
In all fairness, you’re supposed to eat smaller meals throughout the day. It’s difficult but it gives your body a constant source of energy.
I've heard the exact opposite. That when you eat lots of smaller meals, your body 'forgets' how to use its own stored energy. I forget the specifics, but there are different mechanisms in the body for using energy immediately and using stored energy.
Well, daily protein requirements, especially if you are an active person dictate that a protein be a centerpiece to a meal. Whether or not that's meat doesn't matter, so long as it has good bioavailability. Meat is simply the easiest way to meet your daily protein macro requirements.
I consume about 50 grams per day on a vegan diet and that’s without trying. If I wanted to I could also be adding protein powder into my smoothie and switching up my meals so they include more tofu and beans.
Unless you weigh 75 pounds, that isn't nearly enough to maintain lean body mass on an active lifestyle. Weight lifting is something I do 6 days a week, and I require roughly 205g to aid in recovery and lbm gains.
Again, I said that’s without trying. There’s tons of options for more protein but I don’t worry about those cause I don’t lift a ton. There’s lots of people who are vegan bodybuilders.
No doubt, I know one. The effort it takes to manage nutrition for bodybuilding is already pretty time consuming and restrictive, myself I hunt for most of my meat because I do not enjoy supporting factory farms, but that’s my way of reducing commercial meat consumption.
Are you new to lifting? How do you know how much you need as a weightlifter but not how little the regular person needs? The vast difference in the amount of protein needed is one of the first things you learn when you decide to take it seriously.
In order to maintain lean body mass at maintenance levels, the science towards this advise 1.6-1.8g/kg bodyweight. There are other metrics, but they all usually fall in this spectrum. There is one study that shows no lbm loss after 6 weeks at .45g/lb. In general, it is a good idea for the average person to get between .6-.8g/lb. Studies tend to fall around this. Whether you are a weight lifter or not, this is what is advised to maintain lbm, but its generally advisable to eat more as a weightlifter to aid in recovery.
Hopefully that’s a sufficient response to your condescending question, but judging by the tone I doubt it.
You need more to maintain if you've got muscle, yes. The average person doesn't really have any. .6 - .8 for someone around 70kg is about 50g protein.
.6 - .8 per lb is 92g on the low end
I didn't read correctly and assumed he was talking in kg as the NHS recommend 0.75g per kg.
/r/veganfitness
For example, last night my dinner was a 20 oz. steak, and some eggs and a big glass of milk. That's it. I would find it hard to give that up
but you should at least consider it, right? because of the implications for the environment and the animals involved. Not every meal has to be vegetarian. just think about reducing meat consumption by having half the steak, replacing half of the eggs with some baked beans or something, and adding a side of spinach. and drink water or juice or wine instead of milk.
milk isn't really healthy and many adults have issues processing it (you might not)
I am about 240 lbs / 110 kg. I participate in powerlifting competitions at that weight, so I tend to have a "walking around" weight of 248-250 lbs. I perform and recover best at closer to 1g of protein per 1 lb of bodyweight, a ratio I have arrived at after a few years of tinkering and adjusting. I digest milk just fine, and drink about 3 gallons a week.
It's not that it is impossible to source that much protein from plants, it is just really unpalatable for me. It would drastically decrease my quality of life. So... some animals gotta die. I attempt to source my food from ethical sources - I have family members who are hunters and I buy a cow and a half of butchered beef from the farm across the way from my parents house about once a year. I see his herd and how they live, and it's pretty sweet for a cow - wandering around big open Virginia pastures for their whole life.
I mean I hear you. I totally get that getting 240g of protein per day from plant sources, well, limits your diet. As you acknowledge, it is POSSIBLE if it is a major priority.
But even replacing one of your protein shakes (if you have one) with pea-protein and almond milk instead of whey and normal milk would be better than nothing.
And I agree local farming is the way to go. If we ended factory farming and all meat came from local farms/butcheries, I would be very happy. Unfortunately, while half the farms in the US are local, over 95% of the meat this country consumes comes from factory farms. Just about anything purchased in a restaurant, unless explicitly stated otherwise, is sourced via factory farming.
To be honest, I think from an animal rights POV, milk and cheese is more problematic than meat. And fortified nut-milks have everything, nutritionally speaking, that is needed. Of course, the taste isn't the same, but I lost my taste for milk well before giving it up (woke up one day in college and all milk smelled like it had gone bad)
...That does not sound healthy.
It is perfectly healthy... just not at that quantity. Like... jesus. That's Ron Swanson level carnivorism.
I am a pretty big guy, and powerlift a lot.
It's delicious! I also follow a fairly hard intermittent fasting routine, where I don't eat outside of a 6-10 PM window. So before I went to bed I also ate a bell pepper and one of those 5 oz. containers of kale, plus water.
I know, right? Milk isn't good for you. He should have been drinking water instead! Then it would have been perfect.
Right...and I'm sure the people who will die through the global warming the beef industry is a huge contributor to will find giving their lives up hard too. You don't have to stop eating meat entirely, but it's very selfish not to at least cut down on it.
Well, I am not going to. So now what?
So your attitude is "fuck you, got mine"?
More like "I did it, you need to do it too!"
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You can deduce that with certainty because I eat meat?
Perfect meal! Keep it up! Seriously! I've been eating a carnivore diet for over two years and feel amazing. Blood work is great (including cholesterol), lost weight, skin and hair looks amazing, period pains went away and it regulated... so many good things has come from it for me. I was vegan for many years and felt like dog shit and looked like it too.
I decided to give it a try after listening to Dr. Shawn Baker on a podcast, and I respond to it really well.
Sounds amazing!
There are too many vegans in this thread for our comments to gain any traction!
Absolutely this.
I fucking love meat. Over the last year or so though, I've been making a pretty hefty effort to cut down though. The reason for this is twofold:
1) Meat, particularly Beef, is horrible for the environment. I'm not saying I won't have it on a special occasion, or even a not-so-special occasion if I've had a particularly good day and want to make something good for the family... but with how bad we're about to be bent over by climate change, it's worth getting used to a lack of meat now.
2) It's actually not all that good for you. Again, especially red meat, isn't the best thing for your body. There are cleaner sources of protein.
3) (Ok, I said 2, but there is a third) - I'm starting to have an ethical dilemma when it comes to things like pork. Pig cages look like medieval torture devices. Cutting back on meat means that I'm spending far less money, which in turn means that I can ensure that the meat I do end up eating is ethically sourced.
Good for you. Watch Earthlings when you have the time.
Going vegan is the best decision I've ever made and I used to say "I could never give up meat". You've already cut down, which is more than I did before going vegan. It's a lot easier than you probably imagine it and I'd be more than happy to help you with anything you need.
or you could go vegan, it's surprisingly easy once you form a habit, and better for your body
Yes! It’s crazy how close minded people can be about a vegetable dish. Idk if you’re vegan outside of food but I find the non food products to be the most difficult to shop for. Oh those shoes are bad ass, leather. Damnit.
ikr, thank god for amazon
yea i accidentally bought leather motorcycle gloves the other day without even thinking about it at all. im hyper vigilant about consumables but i shop so rarely for anything else that i just dont think about it. i gotta get better about that.
I find it easier to buy things like leather used than to find some kind of vegan leather alternative
That's definitely better than buying them new. Some vegans will argue that by wearing them, other people might see you wearing them and thus keep public perception in favor of real leather, but that just reminds me of some religious folks' argument that unmarried people can't live together because other people might think they're having sex and thus they are promoting premarital sex despite not taking part in it. IDK. I'm just saying, some vegans think even secondhand use is bad.
Imo it's better for animal products that already exist to get the most use out of them as possible. The cow is already skinned and you're not paying the company who skinned it. However if people know you're vegan they absolutely will fight you on it and call you a hypocrite.
I agree with you on that, even when it comes to food. If someone accidentally purchases something that has, say, milk powder as an ingredient, it'd be better to at least consume it since the suffering has already occurred than to throw it out and let the animal's suffering go to waste.
For sure, I do that on occasion. Or like I have a leather jacket I got as a gift before I went vegan. It's very nice and high quality, and while I feel a bit... Gross, I guess, when I think about it too much, I would hate to get rid of it just because it's leather. Even if I gave it away/sold it, I would then have to buy a new jacket which is also more waste, consumption, and environmental damage, and probably from an unethical sweatshop anyway, so I might as well keep the jacket!
I've been vegetarian for years, but veganism seems very hard to me. Zero options when you're eating out, others often don't have vegan food at home... It's easy enough at home (where I eat mostly vegan), but outside it's nearly impossible depending on where you live. You also need to cook a lot more. I always have this feeling that most vegans are also passionate about cooking which makes it easier for them, but I don't really enjoy it.
I know veganism is ethically better, but it's not as easy to me as many say.
No.
what exactly are you objecting to?
Going vegan, I’ll eat less for the environment. I’d Never give it up though.
fair enough, reducing your carbon foot prints a noble cause, but you should look into all the cruelty that goes into animal agriculture, it's honestly horrendous
I have extensively and so far it hasn’t convinced me.
Nah. I'm good, thanks. Even if I was to end up eating things that would tick whatever the current relevant boxes for veganism are I would still not call myself a vegan.
I wouldn't want to associate my identity with that line of argument any more than I would that of the meat-every-meal lot.
Here are some suggestions on methods for cutting down on meat, or on all animal products if one prefers. You could also do these to make the transition into vegetarianism or veganism easier, if you want to go all the way but are concerned about going cold turkey.
-If you feel like you just love bacon (for example - replace with any other animal product as necessary) too much to go vegetarian, you could try cutting out all meat except for bacon. Just uh, don't eat nothing but bacon. The idea is to cut back on meat, and I'm also worried you might die.
-You could continue to buy things that have meat as an ingredient - e.g., ravioli, cheese-and-bacon scrolls - but stop buying meat itself from the supermarket. You could also do this for eggs, or dairy.
-Go vegetarian or vegan on particular on particular days of the week. E.g., Meatless Mondays (http://www.meatlessmonday.com)
-Go vegetarian or vegan at certain meals. There's a book based around this called Vegan Before 6 (https://www.webmd.com/diet/a-z/mark-bittman-vb6-diet) that some people might be interested in - or you can do the diet without buying the book. If you prefer breakfast to dinner, or you aren't prepared to be vegan for two meals a day, you can set different rules for yourself.
-You could decide that you're allowed to get whatever you want when you're eating out, but will only buy vegetarian or vegan stuff from the supermarket. If you're really into cooking, you might prefer the opposite.
OTOH, if you're interested in testing out full-blown veganism or vegetarianism, I suggest doing the 22-Day Vegan challenge - to go vegan for just 22 days and see how you go - or it's less famous cousin, the 30-Day Meatless Challenge.
https://www.challenge22.com/challenge22
http://www.eatingwell.com/article/290405/30-day-meatless-challenge/
Here are some more helpful links. I should note that these pages are written with vegetarians or vegans in mind, but most should still be good for people looking to cut down - for example, someone doing Meatless Monday would still need to know how to feed themselves on Mondays.
Here's a blog about vegan cooking: http://www.vegkitchen.com/
Here's a nicely categorized site on vegetarian cooking: https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/category/vegetarian
Here's a website for finding excellent vegan and vegetarian places to eat out: https://www.happycow.net/
Here's a guide to vegan substitutes for your favourite animal products when cooking: http://www.vegkitchen.com/tips/vegan-substitutions.
Here's a guide to a healthy vegetarian or vegan diet: https://www.12wbt.com/nutrition/healthy/vegetarian
Here is a fairly all-purpose guide for new vegans: http://veganstreet.com/guidefornewvegans.html
And here's one for vegetarians: https://hurrythefoodup.com/how-to-go-vegetarian/
The resources I listed are far from the only ones out there, so it can be helpful to google things like "new vegetarian guide," "vegetarian health" "vegetarian cooking," "vegetarian restaurants," or "vegetarian substitutes." Replace "vegetarian," with "vegan," in those search terms as necessary.
I hope this was helpful for anyone interested in cutting down on or abstaining from meat or animal products.
This is a lot of great info and a lot of this helped me transition from dairy addict to what I'm now comfortable calling completely vegan. I seriously used to have at least 3 dairy products a day (milk with cereal, yogurt, cheese on dinner, to say nothing of dessert) and I honestly don't even miss it. I thought I would never be able to go vegan... Until I went vegan. Even as I was transitioning I was certain I would never be completely vegan but I don't think I've had dairy in weeks.
Honestly, milk, yogurt and cream are by far the easiest to replace. Rice milk and vanilla soymilk for stuff like cereal or just to drink straight. Silk makes AMAZING vegan yogurt. And while I do use replacement cheese here and there (miyoko, trader joes brand, daiya cream cheese are my recommendations) I find I really don't miss cheese very often, I just didn't know how to season things at all. A little Olive oil or another fat plus some seasonings and nutritional yeast if you want something a little cheddary and you won't miss it at all most times.
I also thought I would for sure never be able to give up ice cream and milkshakes, as I had never found a non dairy ice cream I could tolerate, until Ben and Jerry's started making non-dairy. Y'all, there is A REASON that shit sells out so fast! It is so good! I bought the regular cherry Garcia and the non-dairy to compare and because I assumed I'd hate the non dairy and end up tossing it. I genuinely prefer it.
Also, turns out I'm lactose intolerant, and if you're reading this, you probably are too. Most people are. Lactose tolerance is supposed to go away when you finish breastfeeding, but we keep eating it so we don't realize we're slowly getting worse and worse at digesting it. I thought my bowel issues were a medication side effect. Nope! Lactose intolerant. That awful, bloated feeling after eating a pint of ice cream? I thought it was from just eating too much, but if you think about it, a pint isn't very much volume. It's not going to overfill your stomach unless you're already quite full. At least for me, it was just the dairy! Going to the bathroom is A LOT more pleasant now.
Sorry for the rant!
"Earthlings" is a fantastic film that really puts into perspective our culture of using animals for their flesh and secretions. I cant think of a single other film that's as important and relevant to our society and I highly recommend watching it.
has nutrients it can be hard to get from non-animal sources
Name one. Besides B12, which is usually given to livestock in the form of supplements in the first place, so eating animal products to get it is just indirect supplementation.
Vegetarian for 11 years, vegan for nearly 2 now. Only deficiency i had was B12. My iron, etc were amazing.
They sell b12 supplements over the counter in any major pharmacy.
For anybody reading this struggling with B12, nutritional yeast is gonna come in clutch for you. Put a spoon of that in whatever you're eating literally once every three days and you'll get all the B12 you need. AND it tastes pretty cheesy and good.
Yup, nutritional yeast is good but also a lot of breakfast cereals are fortified with B-vitamins and also a lot of almond/soya milk too.
very true, thanks for adding that :)
IF IT'S FORTIFIED WITH B12
there's nutritional yeast that isn't fortified with B12? Where I am every nutritional yeast I've ever found has a shit ton of it haha
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TIL wow
Yea, just pointing out it doesn't have B12 "by default", so make sure that one you use for that is actually fortified
ah gotchu thanks for that :)
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Why eat Vegemite when Marmite exists?
Because we're not heathens?
sharp intake of breath
How dare you! You take that back, you Vegemite-eating barbarian!
Pfft, Philistine. I bet you have sugar in your tea, too.
i just have a spray i blast into my mouth every other day or so. been a vegan for about a year and a half and still cant quite do the nooch.
A glass of fortified almond milk is what I use instead on days I don't use nutritional yeast!
Word. I've been vegan for 5 years, vegetarian 4 years before that. I've had bloodwork done and my doctor was very impressed that I had healthy levels across the board.
It ain't as hard as people are lead to believe.
Agreed, ate a (mostly) vegan diet for about 18 months. First time I ever had good cholesterol in addition to better blood pressure. I was running a lot during that time and set my lifetime PRs for 5k/10k/15k.
What I noticed was I was able to train hard, recover fast, and had a lot of energy.
then what happened?
Started new job and started slacking on training and diet. I would like to get back to it but haven't made it a priority yet.
Died at 29 of a preventable brain aneurysm stemming from red meat deficiency in the diet.
Yeah... I don’t think anyone has ever died from that lol
It’s called a joke
Can confirm. Being vegan is honestly easy as shit! I'm eating way healthier, and I enjoy food a lot more now that my taste buds aren't being desensitized by animal products.
Why would your taste buds be desensitised by animal products?
Great question. I'm not sure what the exact science is behind it, but meat, dairy, and eggs can actually affect your perception of taste in a negative way with regards to plant based foods. A common experience for vegans is to start having a new appreciation for foods and flavors after a few weeks. I was doubtful that I'd notice it very much, but it had a very noticeable and positive effect on my perception of food.
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I'm actually eating a way larger variety now than before. When I went vegan from vegetarian there were only two things I was commonly eating that I gave up: dairy and eggs. In contrast to this, I've tried dozens of new foods and expanded my diet significantly. The biggest readjustment I've made was the amount of foods I've started eating, not stopped. Like I said I'm not familiar with the science of it, but this is a very common occurrence amongst vegans.
You're implying that a plant-based diet is restricting, when in actuality, upon going vegan most people end up consuming a way more varied diet than before they were vegan.
Have you ever had seitan? How about tempeh, tofu, jackfruit, or nutritional yeast? I'm willing to bet most people haven't tried most of these. This is to say nothing of how few legumes people generally consume compared to vegans. There are so many different types of beans and lentils that can be cooked in such a wide variety of ways. So many different leafy greens and root vegetables. Most people don't fully delve into all these different types of foods until after going vegan.
It's not about adjusting to what you can have. It's the same phenomenon as why people who are used to eating junk food all the time don't want anything else. When you're used to eating animal products, you're eating extremely fatty, salty, calorie-dense foods. It affects how you appreciate plant foods. When you eliminate that from your diet, your taste buds adapt and you gain a new appreciation for plant foods.
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Okay sorry, maybe I misinterpreted your statement. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. What did you mean by "you are simply adjusting to what you can have"? I interpreted that as you saying that the person above didn't actually acquire a new taste for vegetables, and that meat wasn't actually affecting their taste preferences.
Personally, I don't believe that to be true, because I know for myself, and many others I've heard talk about it, that once you cut out animal products, you gain a new appreciation for vegetables. I tried to avoid vegetables as much as possible as a non-vegan, and favoured meat and grains as my main portion of every meal. Pasta and a porkchop. Or rice with chicken. Something like that. Then after a month or two of being vegan, I couldn't get enough of vegetables I once tried to avoid.
Yes, a vegan diet is restrictive by definition, but that doesn't mean vegans eat a less varied diet than non-vegans in reality. Most people don't consume seitan, tofu, lentils, tempeh, jackfruit, nutritional yeast, and stuff like that. Most people don't even have beans on a regular basis.
Most people eat chicken, beef, or pork at 2 meals a day, at least. And they often have milk, eggs, or pork for breakfast. Then they'll have grains (bread, pasta, rice) and maybe some vegetables in there, but they're not eating the variety of plant foods that vegans tend to. That's all I was saying.
The wag in me wishes to point out that
having a new appreciation for foods and flavors
is a common side effect of being very hungry.
:)
But not all vegans are starved, so they can't all be constantly hungry?
The problem I run into is I do keto and, short of literally only eating leaves and locally sourced eggs, I don't know what I can eat to be both keto and vegan. On the bright side you eat so much less of everything on the keto diet that I only eat a fraction of the meat I did before.
I assume you are a member of /r/veganketo/?
I was vegetarian keto for a couple months and it was a slog. a lot of designed shakes and just weird meals.
now I just do weightlifting every day and try to eat mostly whole foods and fruit, veggies, grains, beans, some dairy, etc. it feels like the right way to eat for me.
Yep! A keto diet is super unhealthy, especially in the long run.
Eggs wouldn't be vegan btw.
That's most likely because becoming a vegan means you're more likely to really focus on your diet and becoming healthy in the first place rather than the actual benefits of being vegan.
That probably helps too, in either case it's clearly possible to be healthy, if not healthier while vegan.
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That's not true. Or rather, the blanket statement of "meat and animal products have a demonstrable negative effect on human health" is not true. It's a bit more complex than that. It MAY be true that eating factory farmed and/or processed meat is bad for you. But that also depends on what else you have in your diet, i.e. high carbs, etc... However, it has not been shown anywhere that eating certified humane, grass fed beef or pasture raised chickens and eggs along with vegetables and low glycemic carbs is bad for you.
Some people can process dairy and others can't. However, just saying "removing all animal products from your diet and adding nothing, you're likely going to be healthier" is misleading. A person, who has no clue about what they are eating, will likely benefit from a vegetarian/vegan diet because it's a severe deviation from eating basic crap.
The blanket statement of “meat and animal products have a demonstrable negative effect on human health” is not true
I’m sorry, but what you're saying is simply unsupported and actively refuted by the evidence. Have you ever look at the research? It’s quite extensive and impossible to deny. Here’s some research to address your core points.
That also depends on what else you have in your diet, i.e. high carbs, etc […] A person, who has no clue about what they are eating, will likely benefit from a vegetarian/vegan diet because it’s a severe deviation from eating basic crap.
It has not been shown anywhere that eating certified humane, grass fed beef or pasture raised chickens and eggs along with low glycemic carbs is bad for you.
Come on, man. You can’t deny this. I didn’t even look very far, I searched a few keywords and a systematic review came up. That’s where most of this is from. And most of these studies did control for things like general dietary habits. A few are comparisons between, for instanced the American Diabetes Association dietary guidelines vs a plant based diet. Plant based diets have better outcomes every. Single. Time. Obesity, diabetes, cancer, heart disease, all of it. Red meat especially, but not exclusively, as some of the studies compare, for instance, people who eat non red meat with those who eat all meat, and vegetarians with people who don’t eat red meat. The evidence is clear.
So first being well educated does not mean you make well educated dietary choices.
For some reason, I could not access the articles that you linked. However, just reading this over, none of these address the points I made above. These studies divide people into two groups: eat meat and do not eat meat. That's not what I'm talking about. In fact, these studies show a correlation between eating meat and disease/obesity. However, given what we know about nutrition, it's pretty clear that these studies do not address the type of meat consumed and with what.
EDIT: consider the last study you linked. It showed that high intake of red meat is associated with higher risk of mortality. Is that a person eating at McDonald's or is that a person eating elk that they have hunted?
They controlled for these and other factors. That's how scientific studies work. Honestly, have you ever read a scientific paper front to back? I know you might not be able to access all of them but many are NIH and are public access. You seriously think NONE of these brilliant scientists thought to consider what they replaced the meat with or what kind of meat? A few distinguish between processed and unprocessed. And again, as I stated I the comment which I'm beginning to feel you only skimmed, a number of these compare plant based diets to ADA, NCEP, and AHA recommended diets. Plant based diets out performed them all.
So first being well educated does not mean you make well educated dietary choices.
Than why do the well educated cohort have an obesity rate that's a quarter of the general population?
Eat meat and do not eat meat.
MOST OF THEM do not. Many of them compare between two controlled diets. Many subdivide meat eaters and non meat eaters. You just need to actually read.
EDIT: consider the last study you linked. It showed that high intake of red meat is associated with higher risk of mortality. Is that a person eating at McDonald's or is that a person eating elk that they have hunted?
If you clicked through to the full text which, again, is public access, you would know that it is both. Look at the P values for Christ's sake. Red meat is the problem. Here, I'll copy and paste some more for you too:
We excluded 4,849 subjects reporting extreme daily total energy intake defined as more than two inter-quartile ranges above the 75th percentile or below the 25th percentile
So no one with an abnormally high or low calorie intake was counted, meaning excessive McDonald's visits are disqualifying.
In order to address confounding we used forward stepwise variable selection to include covariates to develop the fully adjusted model. Smoking was the largest confounder of the association between meat intake and mortality. Physical activity and education were also important covariates, but not to the same degree as smoking. The final model included: age (continuous); education (less than 8 years or unknown, 8 to 11 years, 12 years (high school), some college, college graduate); marital status (married: yes/no); family history of cancer (yes/no) (cancer mortality only); race (non-Hispanic white, non-Hispanic black, Hispanic/Asian/Pacific Islander/American Indian/Alaskan native or unknown); body mass index (18.5-<25, 25-<30, 30-<35, ≥35 kg/m2); 31-level smoking history using smoking status (never, former, current), time since quitting for former smokers, and smoking dose; frequency of vigorous physical activity (never/rarely, 1-3 times/month, 1-2 times/week, 3-4 times/week, 5 or more times/week); total energy intake (continuous); alcohol intake (none, 0-<5, 5-<15, 15-<30, ≥30 g/day); vitamin supplement user (one or more supplement per month); fruit consumption (0 -< 0.7, 0.7-< 1.2, 1.2-< 1.7, 1.7-< 2.5, ≥2.5 servings/1000 kcal); vegetable consumption (0-<1.3, 1.3-< 1.8, 1.8-< 2.2, 2.2-<3.0, ≥3.0 servings/1000 kcal); and menopausal hormone therapy among women in the multivariate models.
And they controlled for other dietary factors.
This large prospective study facilitated the investigation of a wide range of meat intakes with chronic disease mortality.
This study is a subsection of a larger study. This study focuses on red, white, and processed meats. If you want to look at different types of red meat or fast food vs home cooking, you'll have to look elsewhere. I am completely astonished at how unreasonable you're being. You didn't even read these studies, I doubt you even fully read my comment, and yet you think you have the knowledge and wisdom to question the results of every single one?
I read your comment and looked through the study. You type a lot of text. But I don't see a single instance of accounting for quality of meat, types of red meat, etc...
Over half the world has a problem processing dairy. Also, look up the China Study if you don't believe meat and animal products are harmful. I'm going to choose to agree with the largest nutritional study ever rather than some random redditor.
Right. Just like other studies, it found a correlation. However, as I mentioned in my post above, there can be a ton of factors of why your meat diet is unhealthy for you. In other words, correlation does not equal causation. But I am not saying to ignore it either.
Thanks for the response, technically you're right and with something as complex as cancer, who knows if we will ever find causation. Not trying to argue or anything but animal products do contain cholesterol and cholesterol clearly has negative effects on human health. Not sure if you know this, but nothing vegan contains cholesterol. Of course, it is still possible to be a healthy human while eating meat. You do have to limit your meat intake and eat those cleaner meats though, and the same argument could be made for smoking cigarettes and being healthy. Also, of course vegans can be unhealthy by eating unhealthy vegan food as well.
I appreciate it. Thank you. So the knowledge about cholesterol is also changing. Dietary cholesterol does not necessarily mean you will have a bad ratio of LDL to HDL. although that may apply to certain people because of genetics or the other things in their diet. Lastly, cholesterol is required by your body
Cholesterol is required and is created naturally. You don't need to consume it and there is nothing but benefits from abstaining from it. The knowledge is pretty well known and there is a lot of misinformation on the internet so I implore you and others to do your own research and try to stay unbiased. It has been good chatting with you though, I'm sure you're a healthy individual and have your diet in check, as did I when I was a healthy omnivore.
Yes, I know what you mean. The problem with all this stuff is that there is no definitive source for an answer. A lot of sources say that your liver makes all the cholesterol you need and you don't need any dietary cholesterol. But then again other sources say that your liver is responsible for 75%-85% and the rest comes from dietary. I simply don't know.
Just as a side note, I recommend getting the Genova nutreval test. It looks at basically every vitamin, mineral, metal, fat, etc... in your body. I did it through my doctor in addition to the regular blood tests and the Dutch hormone test. Just to get a full picture, no matter what diet you're on.
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Stigma. Nutritionists are very keen on diets free of animal products, while general physicians are oddly still pumping the "steak dinner and tall glass of milk" routine for the most part. I have medical professionals in my family who were adamant that I get a full blood screening after about a decade of eating vegan, and they were all pleasantly surprised to see how immense my health is.
Because a lot of people put literally 0 effort into it. You should be making conscious decisions about your diet no matter what you eat, but a lot of people just want to eat fast food. For a lot of “vegetarians” that means they just eat french fries for a month or two before giving up because the diet wasn’t working for them.
Dang, you beat me! Why would he/she even make that comment? Vegetarian diets are famously hard to manage. Good for them I guess?
I guess you came in second.
I'll try to be faster next time!
Dang, you beat me! Why would he/she even make that comment? Vegetarian diets are famously hard to manage. Good for them I guess?
I guess you came in fourth.
I'll try to be faster next time!
Dang, you beat me! Why would he/she even make that comment? Vegetarian diets are famously hard to manage. Good for them I guess?
I guess you came in third.
What I didn't understand when I first went vegan is it is the easiest way to be healthy. I thought "well if I'm really careful and take all these supplements then I'll be fine..." NOPE none of that - whole foods plant-based with some junk food treats every now and then, maybe some b12 and vitamin d (but really if you go outside enough and eat some dirty fruits and vegetables then not even those supplements are necessary) and THAT'S IT. Easy peasy and I've never felt better in my life.
Be careful about the dirty fruits and vegetables thing, because that's actually a myth now, for the most part. A lot of soil doesn't actually have enough b12 anymore and grocery store fruits and veggies are pretty clean, despite how they may look at times (and of course you should always wash them anyway).
I recommend to all vegans and vegetarians to take a b12 supplement just in case.
I agree though, staying healthy in a vegan diet is easy af. I can eat a bunch of vegan junk food over the weekend and still feel great.
Yea, fruits don't normally touch dirt, and vegetables get washed. You can last a long time without B12, but the deficiency symptoms will catch up at some point.
How expensive is it in your country? Because where I live things like chickpeas, tofu, lentils and etc., the main protein sources for a vegan diet (correct me if im wrong, its been a while since I heard about this) are considerably more expensive than common cuts of meat and poultry.
In addition, I find it incredibly difficult to find vegan products on a common supermarket, not to mention the higher price
Beans are incredibly cheap just about everywhere
I see comments like this and it upsets me because you probably don't realize some people live in these: food desert, living vegan life is both too expensive and entirely impractical because of limited mobility (no car, no time)... for the folks in these locations.
Which is another thing we have to work on, doesn’t mean the rest of us can’t make changes
Except that being vegan is about doing the best that is practical. If you cannot leave the food desert for some reason or another (family, job, etc) and it would be impractical to maintain a purely plant based diet, then it would still be vegan to consume some animal products. This doesn’t mean you go out and find the biggest triple bacon cheeseburger you can find and cover it in egg mayo but that’s the stage when you try and look for the well better (but probably not well) treated dairy cows and properly free range eggs. If that’s still an issue to find, make your way up to meat.
TL;DR Vegans aren’t saying starve yourself, just eat plant based as long as it is practical, then do mostly plant based until it becomes practical again. For the majority of people in the western world, it is practical to become 100% plant based.
For the majority of people in the western world, it is practical to become 100% plant based.
That's true, but for folks in food deserts it would be incredibly unhealthy (100% plant based, but not getting all the necessary nutrients/calories) and costly (...so not practical). But it's cool, keep living that dream.
Look at us, agreeing on things, ON THE INTERNET, no less.
Put a shirt on, you heathen. People will talk.
I live in Canada, it's not expensive here.
I can't believe that lentils are more expensive than meat - that just doesn't add up. Also chickpeas - like, dried chickpeas, not a tin. Tofu, tempeh, sure I can see that. What about pulses and beans?
As for vegan products, what do you need? Just buy fresh veggies, some lentils and black beans and you're set.
Who gives a fuck if it's healthy or Not, I just like meat.
Golly! You know, I don't remember asking, "hey, anyone out there who doesn't give a shit at all, they just enjoy the taste?", but I've been given an insightful answer regardless!
Thank you, kind stranger, for opening my eyes with a comment that I have surely never heard before in my life. What an original comment.
I believe this is a thread about ethical decision making, not whether you should eat meat or not?
True this. Stopped being anemic when I went vegan.
I don't care that you're a vegan but if you were anemic before and then not anemic after... that likely has way more to do with your shitty before diet than it has to do with veganism. Most likely you started eating way healthier (and eating high iron veggies). Nobody with a normal metabolism and body chemistry shoveling red meat in their face every day is anemic.
Yes, when you become vegan most people start eating a lot healthier.. The point is that eating healthier veggies instead of meat has made my iron levels a lot better. Of course, if I had eaten all those veggies along with the meat I probably wouldn’t be anemic because your body needs other nutrients to absorb the iron.
Either way, I’m pumped I no longer have to take prescription iron pills cause those are hell.
For real, this. People have no idea what they're talking about. I used to make the same mistake. Went vegan the moment I figured out it was literally just B12.
Right, which is made from bacteria that blankets the earth. Farm animals must be supplemented with b12 as well - stop getting your b12 from secondary sources folks! We all need it unless you drink from natural, unfiltered water sources or eat dirty fruits and vegetables from time to time.
Animals ingest B12 because they eat dirtier food than humans do - it's still a decent source even if the animals aren't being supplemented.
What I'm saying is, B12 doesn't originate from animals, they aren't the main source like a lot of people seem to think.
In terms of diet, animals are the main source for humans. Just because they don't synthesise it themselves is not relevant for that.
But they don't have to be. Animals aren't the only source of b12, we can get b12 from the same place the animals got it to begin with, or just supplement like the farm animals do.
Low B12 it's a big thing, don't forget to take care of it.
I agree. Is there anything that suggests I'm not? I've been vegan for over a year, and I take a supplement as every vegan should.
Meat eaters should take a B12 supplement just as responsibly as vegans. Yet they do not, leading them to be possibly more deficient than a vegan would be
I read that 90% of Americans have at least one vitamin deficiency. I'd rather be good on all my vitamins, but take a B12 supplement, than be good on B12 but miss out on other important vitamins.
The good news is, most multivitamins include 100% of your daily B12 requirements. You can also get B12 from varieties of mushrooms, algae, fermented foods, teas, etc.
Good info :)
It's remarkable how many people spout this assumption out as a fact.
I was going to post exactly this. B12 is the only tough one, and it is "supposed to" come from plants in nature. But because it's eliminated in modern agriculture (from washing and stuff), we have to get supplements somehow.
But yeah, that's the only one!
No, plants can't make B12, only bacteria! Ruminants such as cows can get it from the bacterial community in their stomachs.
Everything can be obtained from non-animal products, it’s just more work for the individual eater. Eating a complete meal is easier when you just eat a chunk of meat (lots of protein and fat, low carbs).
It’s just that all the inefficiencies in getting it to the table are externalized, and the (arguable?) long-term health effects are hard to see.
As a vegan, I feel like I put a lot more effort into eating healthily than I did as a carnist (which may not be a bad thing!)
Protein, fat, and low carbs isn't a complete meal though. You need leafy green vegetables and grains are important too. We should be eating about 4 cups of leafy greens a day and I know for a fact most people don't get close to that. They have a ton of essential vitamins and nutrients that aren't available in animal products.
Also, carbs are super important. Carbs are our energy source. Protein is great for building muscle, but it's not the be-all-end-all and it's also not very difficult to get.
If you're eating a well-balanced meal, getting your daily protein isn't a challenge on a vegan diet. The things people need to worry about are eating enough leafy greens, and getting enough fiber, which is impossible if your meals consist solely of meat.
Ok so this is kind of right and wrong. A lot of diets which are high in meat supplement themselves with organ tissue. Ruffage is important and leafy greens can have health benefits meat is devoid of, grain can be lived without but can be useful. Literally everything is energy, so carbs absolutely positively don't have to be one and aren't necessary. They are however more easily farmed and selected for agriculturally for thousands of years and can be a great source in the case of tubers. Civilization was founded on grains which is why we use them not due to the necessity. I would say that protein in modern times is more balanced and easily supplemented than it once was. More rare supplements are more easily generated in foods etc and we don't have the same requirements as we once did making someone capable of it. Creatine for example is harder to find in a vegan diet but isn't necessary. The balances are different but easier to selectively correct for.
A lot of diets which are high in meat supplement themselves with organ tissue.
What do you mean?
Ruffage is important and leafy greens can have health benefits meat is devoid of
Well yea, but it's not only health benefits, it's essential vitamins and nutrients.
Literally everything is energy, so carbs absolutely positively don't have to be one and aren't necessary.
No. Carbs are actually a source of energy, and for a reason:
Glucose is the most important source of energy for cellular restoration, and we get that from carbs.
Classic diets in regions or groups which rely on meat as a primary source of energy requires the consumption of more than what western people would not consider standard components to eat to get the full array of vitamins and nutrients.
Once again everything is a source of energy. Carbs being capable of being used directly as energy is fine, but not unique for providing energy. Ketones act as an alternative, and we haven't seen brain degradation. That study at best makes huge claims that no single study could cover. Eg. they claim that a low carb diets result in spontaneous food intake, and make the claim that de novo lipogenesis is not significant due to lipid oxidation in the body and thus doesn't contribute to fat content in individuals which is frankly ridiculous.
Most important is a loaded statement and it can be seen from ketogenic diets used by those with epilepsy or are trying to lose weight.
Yea, the body turns fat into ketones when you're starving and not consuming carbs. And the reason why is because the body uses the glucose for red blood cells, which need glucose. It's clear our body prefers carbs as an energy source.
Eating meat in excess is not devoid of serious health complications, and studies on people who have, show many adverse effects. There's tons of studies on keto diets because at one time it was used as a treatment for epilepsy. Here are some of those studies and their findings:
Some adverse health effects on patients undergoing a keto diet:
Other early‐onset complications, in order of frequency, were hypertriglyceridemia, transient hyperuricemia, hypercholesterolemia, various infectious diseases, symptomatic hypoglycemia, hypoproteinemia, hypomagnesemia, repetitive hyponatremia, low concentrations of high‐density lipoprotein, lipoid pneumonia due to aspiration, hepatitis, acute pancreatitis, and persistent metabolic acidosis.
Late‐onset complications also included osteopenia, renal stones, cardiomyopathy, secondary hypocarnitinemia, and iron‐deficiency anemia.
22 (17.1%) patients ceased the ketogenic diet (KD) because of various kinds of serious complications, and four (3.1%) patients died during the KD, two of sepsis, one of cardiomyopathy, and one of lipoid pneumonia.
Here's two cases of sudden cardiac death following a keto diet.
A study of the Inuit population showed:
And a paper on the health issues from the consumption of fish, which these populations tend to consume:
My best friend has a form of pernicious anemia that makes it almost impossible for her to uptake non-heme iron. There aren't really vegan substitutes for that.
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"Complete proteins" are really overrated.
Any given dish may not contain high levels of all 9 essential amino acids, but if you're a normal human being who eats a variety of foods, you will almost certainly get enough of each one. You don't have to get all 9 at once for them to count.
Soy is a complete protein. Have a glass or two of soy milk a day and you're golden.
Would you mind sharing some of your favorite complete protein dishes/recipes?
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Oh, seitan! That's the thing that Chinese vegetarian dishes are made with! They were always my favourite part of vegetarian dishes, and I never knew what they were called. And it's apparently 75g protein in 100g of seitan? Seems much more stomach space efficient than meat.
All plant proteins are complete. They contain all 9 essential amino acids.
Most vegetarian dishes aren't complete proteins.
This is completely false. All plant proteins have all 9 essential amino acids (complete protein), even watermelon.
The key is to eat enough calories from an abundance of diff plant foods, and you get plenty of protein
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When i wrote my comment, the edit wasn't there.
/shrug
don't make statements and expect only 1 response? idk man, its only reddit. have a gr8 weekend!
Iron. I can't get my damn iron from vegetarian/vegan sources, I'm constantly anemic, and plant sources are much harder to absorb. Though I'm well aware it's more a me problem than a veganism problem, but it's there.
I don't understand how you have a problem with this. Iron is everywhere (it's also an easy supplement if you did somehow have a problem). Unless I misunderstood your situation...
I have digestive problems. I have a sufficient intake, theoretically, but my body doesn't absorb it properly, so I continue being anemic, specially if I stick to an entirely meat-free diet. It's been an ongoing health issue for me, I get my blood tested twice a year for years now. Like I said, a me issue, not a veganism issue, but I hate how some people deny your health problems can limit you in this sense.
It's not a you problem, veganism has to try to work for as many people as possible.
Here are some tips for getting better iron intake on plant-based diets, if you're interested:
Include:
Exclude:
in the same meal, as these things may lower non-heme iron absorption.
What are some meal ideas that do this?
but not every meal has to be high in iron to get sufficient iron.
You can read a basic introduction to vegan nutrition here, and a more comprehensive one here for deeper questions. While there are many causes of anemia, dietary anemia can be addressed through the foods you eat (or the cooking methods you use), or through iron supplementation under the supervision of a doctor. If you're worried about the amount of iron or other nutrition you're getting, you can track what you eat on a free nutrient tracking app or website like https://cronometer.com/, for a little while in the beginning, or ask your doctor for a blood test (including an iron panel).
I've looked into it a lot, though thanks for all the advice! Got help at /vegetarian too and I've been looking into the iron fish. My meat intake is quite low (once or twice a week tops) but definitely can't afford to drop it. I spent half the time on doctor-mandated iron supplements (which kill my digestive system) even though I eat legumes and oats daily. It's a constant frustration.
So take a multivitamin that contains iron and vitamin C. Problem solved.
I also have a history of anemia (dating way back to when I was eating lots of meat). Supplementation may be the most reliable way for some people to get enough iron, particularly women of child-bearing age.
Absolutely fucks up my digestive system. I already take iron supplements most of the time. But it's not health.
I can't get my damn iron from vegetarian/vegan sources
Yeah u can
I can't, I have iron absorbtion issues, plant-based iron sources are harder to absorb, even though my intake is theoretically correct my blood work is fucked up.
http://www.onegreenplanet.org/vegan-food/10-plant-based-foods-packed-with-iron/
Didn't you read what I said? I can eat all those, but my body doesn't absorb enough iron from them. You're the type of vegan that gives others a bad name by ignoring legitimate health issues and pushing low quality sources above medical science. Dark leafy greens aren't even a good source and can make it worse depending on how it's cooked, that's a poorly researched article. Moreover, measuring by cups is both inaccurate for nutrition tracking and ridiculous for some of those foods. 1 cup of cashews has almost 800 calories, you can't eat that.
But I'm sure Lindsey Little, holistic health counselor, knows more about it than my doctors.
It's not about a single nutrient, usually it's a balance of things. B12 in liver is in compounds easier digested by humans than what it is in vegan substitutes, and how it is absorbed, the whole cycle, requires other chemicals you get easier from meat. Also the numbers for B12 are slightly skewed in favor of meat, when you can basically eat a single slice of liver so you don't have to consume a pound of beans (pulling these out of my ass, it was a few years back I did any googling on the thing, but I that was the gist). Which is nice, since you're not going to absorb all of it, better to have an excess in your intake. And usually it is more expensive to go vegan, with the meat industry still subsidized pretty heavily all around.
All of that said, I myself have been cutting down on meat and don't have it every day anymore, which is an improvement over the "2 guys, a cabin in the woods, a weekend and 20 pounds of meat plus a handful of potatoes" diets I've gone with in the past. And it's perfectly viable to do vegan in a healthy manner in any first world country, but do the initial research when you make the change. You can't just replace beef with soy and call it a day :D
These may not be important for everybody but what about creatine, heme-iron, and various sterols? It's also dense in macronutrients. I doubt meat is historically and widely known for its performance enhancing effects without merit. The only cases against meat for me so far are dioxins, fickle morals, and mass production issues.
Iron & Omega 3s in the form of DHA (specifically seafood) which is fully metabolized, unlike ALA which only has a 10% absorption rate. B12 generally comes from the bacteria on grasses that ruminates eat. If fed corn & soy then they aren't getting any.
Been a vegan on and off for years. It's doable, but you and I know how much work it is. Not everyone is cut out for that.
Iron is more easily found in plant foods. Leafy greens, lentils, and beans have a ton of iron.
Seaweed/nori contains DHA, as does algae, but our body can convert ALA to DHA, so getting DHA directly isn't necessary, besides science not fully understanding it. It's not an essential nutrient for a reason, as much as people do tout it as brain-fuel, the science isn't conclusive on it.
In terms of ALA, it's found in cashews, flax seeds, and even lettuce, among other plant foods.
I haven't found being vegan to be any more work than when I wasn't, other than checking ingredients at the grocery store on items I've never bought before, but that takes 2 seconds.
Absorption and total amount available are two different things when it comes to iron.
Like I said, ALA isn't as bio available.
Point is, it is doable (to reiterate), but it's harder and requires more conscious eating.
Iron isn't hard to get, bottom line. Yes, absorption is less for non-heme iron, but that's irrelevant considering the amount of iron in plant foods.
2 tablespoons of flax seeds a day gets you your daily DHA. It's incredibly easy to get DHA and many other foods have ALA.
It's not harder and it doesn't require any more conscious eating.
Been a vegan on and off for years. It's doable, but you and I know how much work it is
Yeah, I do know how much work it is. Basically none once you've learned the ropes
So you have no issues eatiing out? Going to friends houses? Having guests over? Making sure you're getting the right proportions of amino acids or healthy fats? You're making sure you aren't spiking your blood sugar with to much carbs by in taking enough fiber? You're good with the overall costs of eating healthy, fresh vegetables constantly?
So you have no issues eatiing out?
Not really. I know where to eat.
Going to friends houses? Having guests over?
Not really, no.
Making sure you're getting the right proportions of amino acids or healthy fats?
I call this "eating." Beyond trying not to be grossly unhealthy I don't have any kind of overarching plan to my diet, and I have been and continue to be fine.
You're making sure you aren't spiking your blood sugar with to much carbs by in taking enough fiber?
lolwut? I just eat a decent range of foods, it's not like I'm sitting down pounding loaves of bread all day.
You're good with the overall costs of eating healthy, fresh vegetables constantly?
lmao, implying I eat healthy, fresh vegetables constantly
Vitamin D, depending on where you live. In some climates you can make it from sunlight year round. I don't think there are any animal sources as good as fish. Taking a supplement is easy though. It cost me £1.50 total to take a supplement every day over winter.
Most if not all non-dairy milks have just as much vitamin D as moo milk. Both have 45% of your daily intake in 250ml. Vitamin D is added to both.
I haven't figured out what it is, but there's something in dairy that I was missing with a vegan diet, which led me to being incredibly fatigued.
But more concretely, long-chain omega-3 fatty acids. You can get supplements made from algae, but normal dietary plant sources are practically nonexistent. I'm not saying you shouldn't go vegan by any means, but this is something a lot of people seem to overlook (or think they can solve with short-chain sources, which isn't really adequate).
but there's something in dairy that I was missing with a vegan diet, which led me to being incredibly fatigued.
calories
Hm, your body can convert ALAs (vegetable oils) into EPA, which can be converted into DHA. Maybe you were just not getting enough fat in general?
No, the process of lengthening ALA is incredibly inefficient (less than 5%) and most vegetable oils contain very little ALA. For example, olive oil is less than 2% ALA. So to match a single fish oil supplement providing 600mg of long-chain omega-3s, you'd have to take in 600g of olive oil.
As far as I know, flaxseed oil is the highest commonly available omega-3 vegetable oil, at about 50%. With that, you'd "only" need 24 grams of flaxseed oil per day.
And that's not even taking into account that the enzyme that lengthens ALA is competitively inhibited by short chain omega-6 fatty acids, which are everywhere. And I know of no studies on the efficiency of this process at such enormous levels of ALA. So 5% is super optimistic in the first place.
So no, you're not going to solve the problem with vegetable oils.
There's actually not much consensus on the suggested amount of EPA and DHA to consume each day, but some doctors/dieticians are recommending anywhere between 200mg-900mg. They're generally more critical during development.
Not sure where you're getting your numbers from, but 1g of flaxseed oil has 550mg of ALA in it (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0024320506000774), there are about 14g in 1 tbsp, so if you have one tbsp of flaxseed a day you get about 7 700mg ALA, with a conversion rate of 5%-10%, you can get anywhere from 300-700mg EPA, and with a conversion of 2-5% for DHA you can get 154-385g DHA which is in the healthy range. So, if long-chain fatty acids were indeed your biggest issue then supplementing with flax seed oil would have helped. However, for some reason, you said a lack of dairy products were the reason you couldn't get enough EPA/DHA, when only fish oils contain those types of LCFAs.
I'm not sure why you said you don't know where my numbers come from, and then gave numbers more or less in line with my own. I don't know where you heard 5-10% for ALA conversion though. Every source I've seen says less than 5%.
The dairy thing was a separate. Supplementing omega-3s didn't help my fatigue. That said, you're mistaken about only fish oils containing long chain omega-3s. Dairy also contains them, particularly if it's grass-fed.
I'm pretty sure those numbers are in the article I provided. I even saw one paper that cited up to 15% for EPA. Could have had something to do with estrogen in that case. You said there was something in dairy that you needed then went on to say it was LCFAs specifically...??
Dairy only contains DHA if it's been fortified. Seafood is the only natural source of high levels of EPA and DHA which is why everybody thinks fish oil will solve their problems. www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-A-Z/Fat/Food-Sources-of-Omega-3-Fats.aspx
Name one
Honestly, calories. You ever tried gaining weight with a plant-based diet? It's tough. It can be done, but it ain't easy.
Ben and Jerry’s makes 7 flavors of vegan ice cream. Every single carb is still available to you. Avocados, oils, cashews (and cashew cream based dairy replacements), and a shit ton of vegan junk food (including Oreos).
Source: Am fat vegan. It’s too fucking easy now if you let yourself indulge, because there’s more vegan pleasure-food options than ever.
Ice cream is not what I'd consider a substitute for, say, chicken. I've had substitutes, like Quorn, and enjoy them, but they have fewer calories.
As I said, too, it is possible, but harder. And it's possible without swapping out meat and replacing it with junk food.
Edit: I should mention I used to eat the SO Delicious I've cream sandwiches b/c they had fewer calories.
Many meatless replacements are comparable protein wise, often lower in fat which is why you take a calorie hit. Slice up on avocado on top of it and it’ll balance out with a healthier fat to boot.
I haven't tried that combination, but I like both of those so I will try that. Thanks!
This probably the opposite of true for most people. Bread is vegan.
Carbs =\= calories, despite what you may have heard.
That's pretty easy. In fact since becoming vegetarian I found it to be easier. My bean intake increased massively and they're a high source of carbs.
Yeah, beans are great. I find the higher fiber content makes it harder for me to eat too much of stuff like that, but maybe I just need to get used to it (shrugs).
Consume less dairy, too
Yes, people consume too much meat. For some reason when you say this they think you're trying to convert them to veganism, but I mean they don't realize there's a grey line between veganism and normal meat eating.
My wife kindof forced me into a low-meat diet. Most of our meals are vegan, but not all. I actually really like this arrangement now. Most of the proteins are just as satisfying in both taste and texture. Also, a big red-meat meal bogs me down whereas a light vegan meal leaves me feeling more energetic.
Seriously, going vegan has made getting baked so much nicer. Of course you can still binge on Oreos and potato chips, but seriously, if you like to partake, spend 30 minutes getting some wholesome vegan food. Some flavored water/tea, sweet potato fries (these are stupid easy to make), tofu sloppy joes, Ben and Jerry's non dairy, some chickenless strips, vegetable masala, whatever. Honestly Trader Joe's is the best for it. You can still much away but, at least for me, I don't feel nearly as bloated or miserable, and I never have an upset stomach in the morning. Plus there's something really... Content feeling about knowing nothing you ate had a life of fear and pain or a death march into a slaughterhouse.
Plus, something like 75 to 80% of the population is lactose intolerant. We're supposed to be lactose intolerant. We evolved to drink breast milk for <5 years and then stop, not replace it with another species. Honestly, I bet if a lot of people just spent a week keeping a poop journal eating their normal diet and then another week journalling their plant-based poops it would be obvious how much dairy makes us miserable. Dairy used to be a complete staple for me, I thought I'd never give it up. I can't remember the last time I had it now. Must be at least a few weeks.
Yeah to be honest I started meatless Monday’s with my family and we’re already starting to save more money on meals. That and making salads and rice dishes for lunches makes food shopping much less stressful.
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Earthlings is very good however
Lotta truth here
While I support your statement, the idea that animals have nutrients that are hard to find from plants is a complete myth. Animals suck at making vitamins and such, just like we do (turns out we are animals). The few trace things like Vitamin K that are hard to find from plants actually come from the gut bacteria of the animal. One can easily get them by eating fermented foods.
Where do people think the vitamins come from? If animals just eat plants then the vitamins either come from the plants or they’re able to produce them in their bodies. We’re animals too, so why would it be any different for us?
Vitamin B12 you mean? Vitamin K is an antioxidant found in vegetable oils.
No. I mean vitamin K, which is really a class of vitamins, some of which are readily available from vegetable sources, others which are only produced by bacteria and then stored in the liver of animals in small quantities. B12 is also hard to find in vegetable sources, but can be easily fermented and supplemented, as well.
Good you've read up on it, because vitamin K is made by plants.
(...) The few trace things like Vitamin K that are hard to find from plants actually come from the gut bacteria of the animal.
You were mixing up K and B12.
They aren’t hard to get. And if everyone was vegan the world would be a MUCH better place.
You can take my meat-based stock from my cold, dead hands. Vegetable stock in no way compares.
Pfffft veggie stock is the shit buddy.
The flavour profile is so drastically different. Vegetable stock can be very useful in the right dish but it nowhere near as versatile as chicken stock.
I can cook without, or with very little meat. It's a needless struggle to do so without good stock when all it would do is tick an arbitrary box. That feels more like self-agrandising, virtue signalling nonsense to me.
Alright alright I see where you’re coming from.
You’re right. It doesn’t compare at all. Your meat based stock is what’s unethically harming the earth and the animals. And that’s what this thread is about. Enjoy your death stock.
Your meat based stock is what’s unethically harming the earth and the animals.
This naïve all-or-nothing stuff is precisely the problem. I cook a big batch of vegetarian chilli but prefer to use two beef stock cubes in a two litre batch of the stuff.
Nah, bin the whole lot because it's as bad as eating a pile of steak.
My ethical standpoint is that it's better to improve the world in many, many small ways. I could make said chilli with vegetable stock. I have done so before. Once. The difference the beef stock made was so substantial that the recipe went from being in my discard pile to my regular rotation.
Fuck your baby-with-the-bathwater ethics.
I don’t care what you think. For me it’s all or nothing. Eating a steak is just as unethical and inhumane as using beef stock. They both caused unbelievable levels of pain and suffering to an animal that in no way deserved it, and they both contributed to the downfall of our planet. I’d much rather use vegetable stock in place of beef stock knowing no animal was harmed. Regardless of how it tastes. Helps me sleep at night. Call me naive all you want. Many people have. I know in my heart what I’m doing is right. I will agree that a reduction in animal products helps. But I’ve been there and done that. I just wish everyone could see how these products are sourced. If they could I think everyone would stop using them all together.
I don’t care what you think.
Then I shan't bother reading the rest of your response. Good night.
Upvote for you
On the topic, we should stop feeding corn to cows. It sounds hilarious, but the corn is actually giving them gas, and with the extreme number of cows, we could have a pandemic some day
We should stop subsidizing corn and animal agriculture. We give them billions of dollars and they fuck up our bodies and planet and torture animals. I truly believe corn subsidies are a major cause of American obesity. That and the whole "low fat" fad that ended up just putting more sugar in everything to cover the lack of richness.
Anyway, the easiest way to reduce cattle methane emissions is to stop breeding them, which means either harsh regulation to on animal agriculture (lol good luck) or a lot of people stop paying them to breed and slaughter animals (starting to happen!!)
It also fucks with their biochemistry and it turn the humans’ that consume them. They didn’t evolve to eat corn (that’s why they get gas) and the result is more omega-6 (pro-inflammatory) and less omega-3 (anti-inflammatory) fats. People eating the Standard American Diet (SAD) consisting of a lot of corn-fed beef and processed corn products in general are so often the ones suffering from a host of diseases with a chronic inflammation component. Gah.
Or if we stop eating meat there will be an almost complete reduction
dont forget to see a recipe cookbook of indian food, i know atleast 400 tasty + healthy dishes with 0 meat on them
From an ethical standpoint (which is exactly what this thread is asking) veganism is the only answer and meat eaters really have no ground to stand on (unless they believe that animal suffering is irrelevant, in which case this has to apply to ALL animals including cats and dogs. Some might even argue that humans who haven't reached the age of consciousness should be included in that too).
And this is coming from me, a meat eater who goes to the gym and consumes an ungodly amount of proteins each day. I love my meat and I'll keep eating my meat, but I don't try to pretend that I'm being ethical. The best I can do is not be hypocritical and admit that I'm contributing to that suffering and it's a conscious egotistical (and very delicious) choice.
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Hail seitan
All hail.
Just because you admit you're being hypocritical doesn't make it no longer hypocritical. It's not nearly as hard as you expect to phase meat out if you'd only just try. What's stopping you?
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Right?
"This is objectively awful and I do it anyway because I like it and don't care that it's awful, but at least I acknowledge that it's awful so I should get credit for that."
I don't think that's completely fair. It's really easy to understand something rationally without really feeling that it's true on a gut level. We like to think that we're rational beings first and emotional ones second, but our emotions are way older and more powerful than our relatively new capacity for abstraction. This is why I think documentaries like Earthlings are really important. They don't just provide facts and argument, but they really make it obvious to viewers that they are not actually ok with what we do to animals even if they thought they were.
I don't see how continuing to do something that you recognize is unethical and terrible is even close to "the best you can do."
It's not the best I can do. It's what I decided to do. As I said, it's an egotistical decision that I wouldn't be able to justify on a philosophical level.
I'm willing to bet that if you watch a documentary like Earthlings, your philosophical views and the way you actually feel about eating meat will suddenly align. The meat industry purposefully keeps everything out of sight so that it's easier to hold these kinds of self-contradicting views.
So why wouldn't you want to do better?
I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I'm just curious about your mindset as I haven't encountered it much.
Because I already do better in many facets of my life. But coming home and eating a nice meal that includes a form of meat is simply something that I'm not willing to give up. I've grown up doing that and it something that brings me joy and comfort.
I've eaten vegan food and it's simply something that I don't enjoy. Quite frankly I don't care enough about the suffering of animals to justify changing my current behavior.
Could I do better? Sure. But everyone could do better on an ethical level on many fronts, and this includes vegans. I try to do better every day, but I just pick my battles. I value doing better for the sake of humans more than for the sake of animals, so going vegan has never been something that's high priority for me.
If you're looking for a 100% reasonable response from me, I already conceded that I have no philosophical ground to stand on, so you won't get one.
I was in your shoes for 3 years, realized that veganism was the way to be but was indefintiely procrastinating on switching. Just wanna say that's really not that hard, within a month or two of transitioning it becomes as effortless as an omnivorous diet.
So you're just willfully being a shitty person by your own standards?
It's always nice to see meat eaters being honest, so thank you. I used to say the same thing.
If you're ever interested in some delicious vegan meals, head over to /r/veganrecipes and check out for any local vegan restaurants in your area.
Also, watch Earthlings. Going vegan isn't as hard as you think, believe me. I used to say "I could never give up meat".
not using items with micro plastic beads and perhaps foregoing all plastic bottles and straws where possible.
Designate yourself as an organ donor. It's unbelievably selfish to deprive someone else from a life-saving organ after you pass.
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The U.K. has recently made the system “opt-out” and not “opt-in” - makes so much sense to me. Also blood donation - I’m rarely eligible (used to be under-weight, depends on medications etc) but now I am, I have diarised when my local bloodbank is in town. I definitely want blood available if I need it so I should do my best to contribute!
I believe that's the way it works with the new system in China. Your priority on the organ transplant list is directly related to your organ donor status.
I was actually told by a friend not to do this because doctor's would be less inclined to save you if they wanted your organs to harvest. I just stared blankly at her then checked the box to donate.
So many people believe it, and it's not true. Paramedics aren't going to check your wallet for your ID to see if you're a donor before triaging. That wastes precious time.
Plus, paramedics are...you know, human beings like the rest of us, and usually got into their career because they care about helping people.
A paramedic would have to be USDA Grade A+ Prime Fucking Sociopath to let somebody die just because they're an organ donor.
I hate that reading "USDA Grade A+ Prime" made me start salivating even in this context. Damn you, pavlov!
Oh, that reminds me:
Here's some tri-tip beef that I cooked sous vide for 24 hours, then sliced and topped with chimichurri.
Here's some more tri-tip that I did for 4 hours and made steak tacos with. :)
Oh my fucking god. I was looking into a sous vide setup (right now I just bake/fry/barbecue/smoke my meats) and it looks so good. As soon as I sober up I'm going... to go to the gym because right now I'm cutting, but goddamn I want to go buy some steak.
Fuck that looks delicious! drools
Can confirm. Work as an ER nurse and we do not check to see anyone’s license prior to starting life saving measures. Only legal document that matters to us at that time is a DNR.
Even if they did, it's crucial that the organs don't get damaged by lack of oxygen, so if organ donation was a priority they'd take care of you first.
Lmao there was a joke about this on AP BIO but I didn't know people actually believe that
Love that show
My retarded father-in-law has this same belief...
I used to be one of the people that believed this. But i think it was someone in a coma they tried to harvest from in the story i read. Let me see if I can find it. Nevertheless when I get my license renewed this year I’m going to become a donor. EDIT- https://www.google.com/amp/s/gizmodo.com/5892470/the-dark-side-of-being-an-organ-donor/amp It has to do with the controversy over brain death. Just food for thought.
Another reason why that idea is so misleading is that you cannot be dead dead in order to donate organs. You have to be brain dead, but still be biologically alive. It's a clear case of people bending facts / not knowing what the hell they are talking about. I just don't understand what's wrong with giving your organs when your dead.
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That they'd let you die if you were an organ donor, or that they have encountered idiots that believe that they would let organ donors die?
No you haven't. No doctor told you that they'd let a patient die in order to harvest their organs.
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No they don’t. I’ve sat on the hearings to add people to the transplant list, I’ve been part of a collection of organs from someone who was brain dead due to trauma and I’ve been part of an operation that was turned over to the transplant team after family agreed that there was no chance of meaningful recovery and allowed their wish to donate their organs be carried out.
The team and doctors declaring death are not the team that performs the removal of organs for donation, they have to be called in (sometimes from home at 3 AM) in order to meet ethical requirements. Organs are rarely used in the same hospital because transplant lists are regional and the first up is often a few hours away. The list and compatibility dictates where the organ goes, no one involved in the surgery or declaration of death has any say in who gets the organ.
What is taken into consideration is if heroic measures are taken to keep someone technically living through means like ECMO, blood warming, respiration, etc. despite clinical death. This is done to make organs more viable. ECMO is a process by which your blood is oxygenated using a machine and pumped through your body. It can replace a failed respiratory and cardiac system.
If there were even an inkling that a doctor didn't do everything they could to save a life so an organ could be harvested the doctor would lose their license for it.
The hospital the procedure is hosted at can also lose their status as a transplant center if anything like that happens. Organ procurement and transplantation is federally regulated.
Bullshit.
Do you have proof? I’d like to know
I kind of hope you mean PhDs and not MDs.
Bullshit
But what if one of my organs end up going to a man? That would make me post-mortem gay
The true concern here
Think of it as trying something new!
just say no homo when you die
I indicated to the DMV that I wanted to be an organ donor and they didn't actually put the organ donor symbol on my license.
It's unbelievably selfish to deprive someone else from a life-saving organ after you pass.
I disagree with this, though I do think as many people as possible should register as donor (or at least have their choice registered). There are many people who believe in religions which do not allow for organ transplantation (think of jehova's witnesses and large parts of islam). These people tend to believe that the consequence of them donating (or receiving a donation) condemns them to eternal damnation. Whether or not this is true, I don't know, but they believe it, so to them it's real. If you then weigh the saving of maybe a couple decades on earth VS someone's eternal soul, I'd say the soul wins out by a wide margin.
Though I do think that the general rule of being a donor when you're willing to receive an organ still holds up.
Several lives vs the possibility that we are all wrong and there really is eternal damnation and it really is caused by donating organs.
Lives win every time.
If your religion tells you not to do something that takes almost no effort and could save dozens of lives then you need to rethink whether or not that religion makes you a better person. Maybe we should pretend like they won't be a donor but just take the organs anyway, its not like they can complain. Some religions also say killing gay people is okay but I think we should all agree that its not okay.
Yeah, but you have to question your value system when saving someone's life is a damning act.
Very much this. After my grandfather passed away and I heard where a couple of his organs went and saves a couple lives, I was sure to change to an organ donor the next time I renewed my license. Not like I'm going to need my organs when I'm buried six feet under, and I'd like to think I saved someone's life.
Right!? Shouldn't being a donor be the default and then you have to add your name to a registry to Not Be A Donor?! Like, you're fucking dead, you don't need that kidney but you could give a child the opportunity of a lifetime, literally. Or give someone the ability to see for chrissakes. When I die I want them to harvest me like Indians on a buffalo.
Or don't, and allow people to die, reducing the overpopulation pressure on the planet.
On that note, sign up to donate bone marrow! There are so many people that could have their illnesses treated if they had a donor match, but more people just need to sign up. I've known several people to actually end up donating and it's not an invasive procedure (they stimulate stem cell production and filter that out similar to how you give blood). It's such an easy way to save a life.
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They don't take your organs until after you're dead, you dingus.
Do you even know what an organ donor is?
So do other people. Unfortunately they weren't lucky enough to have one by default.
This is pretty minor, but I recommend avoiding any cable news source. I'm liberal leaning, and not until the current administration have I become a screeching liberal caricature, but I still wouldn't watch CNN out of principle. Make your own opinions. Why would you watch TV to hear your thoughts bounced back at you? I think Fox News is more reprehensible than others, but all of them help in polarizing and already dramatically split populace.
We've recently started tuning in to the nightly news with Lester Holt, NBC's half-hour evening news show. I used to watch these as a kid (before we all got our news on the internet). I can't tell you how refreshing the show is. It's just someone telling you what happened. "The hurricane hit this area. These many people were killed. This was what Donald Trump said about it. Moving on to the next story."
Lester Holt very rarely says his opinion or indicates what he personally agrees or disagrees with and there are almost no op-ed type of segments or "senior political experts" weighing in with their opinions, like with practically all other news programs. It's just "this is what happened. This is what we know." They're pretty good at keeping it to verifiable facts, too, or at least acknowledging when we don't have all the facts yet.
No news will ever be totally without bias, but this is about as close as I can find. You couldn't get all your news this way, but for basic political news, it's my top choice.
Lester Holt is a registered Republican, but you wouldn't be able to tell that watching NBC Nightly News. The man is a consummate professional.
That's a little surprising. But I don't really care what the man's leanings are, since they don't affect his show.
I mean... Talk of the nation, left right and center, science friday... I get that NPR is known as the liberal media because they have some programs that are left leaning but the core their programming is way better at staying center then any other outlet I can think of. Hell, sometimes it seems like their hosts push harder to the right just to buck the perception.
I'm a libertarian, but NPR is the only thing I listen to. I don't even listen to music if I'm the only one in the car. I disagree with about 20% of their content, but even then I can listen and learn.
I disagree with about 20% of their content
I'm a liberal, but their film and music programming like dinner party download get nauseating pretty fast.
But yeah, I think it's healthy to disagree with at least some of what we're hearing in your new outlets. There are some youtube and political outlets that I tend to agree with almost completely, but at the end of the day they seem to just be spouting things for me to agree with instead of giving me information...
Granted I only listen to Marketplace Morning report and Business Story of the day - I have to disagree. I feel they used to stay near center, but once Trump took office they will find any way possible to work a Trump-shot into most stories. Things seem to now boil down to things were great during the last administration and absolutely nothing good has come from the current one.
I’ll agree there hasn’t been a lot good from Trump, but the new tax plan does help out a large number of Americans especially the lower to middle income brackets. Even that only get bashed because the top gets more $$ back even though on a percentage basis the lower brackets benefit more.
That being said I will still faithfully listen to NPR for a competing viewpoint. Just wish it was a bit more balanced like it used to be.
The new tax plan is good for me personally, but you can't just give almost everyone a break and expect $10+trillion to materialize from vague notions of growth. Roughly half the federal budget is healthcare and social security, both of which are strained to a breaking point. Unless you want to decimate the military, pay teachers in sweet dreams or stop repairing highways the math doesn't add up. Something has to give and any media outlet not asking tough questions about something so plain and fact-based is not doing their job. I don't care if the cheeto is in office or mecha-Obama. This is not partisan it's a spreadsheet.
The fact that the tax plan does benefit the wealthy so much is a partisan issue that I certainly have heard mentioned on NPR, but they haven't mentioned this fact any more than they've mentioned higher standard deduction or the proposed simplified filing. Would you have them just say "There's a new tax plan that does stuff, but we can't say what or else we'll be partisan so... next up kitties!"
That being said I will still faithfully listen to NPR for a competing viewpoint.
This is so distressing to me that you think one of the most, if not the most balanced full-featured news outlet in America is "a competing viewpoint". I visit propaganda new outlets and tabloids, but I don't think for a second that they are "competing" with real reporting. I want to hear what talking heads think and want to hear arguments, but that's not what NPR is.
I don’t disagree that they should be asking the tough questions on the tax plan. While the funding cost of ACA is much lower ($1.2 trillion) I failed to hear any of those same questions on the subject. Granted taxes and healthcare are different subjects, if deficit spending is a concern than I would have expected the same rigor but failed to hear it materialize.
I do disagree with you on their explanations of the benefits under the new tax plan. Perhaps I’m listening differently, but I would rarely hear how it helped lower income Americans. I would usually hear how it benefited big-business and the wealthy. Both sides were discussed, I don’t feel it balanced reporting.
I guess what I meant to say is I feel NPR is a competing viewpoint because it does have a slight left bias while still being a respected and legitimate news source, as you mentioned. I read news also from WSJ and Bloomberg. I’m basing the bias both on personal experience and the Pew Research Center study on ideological placement of each source’s audience. While an audience may not be a 100% accurate portrayal of their reporting style, I believe they are both closely correlated.
While the funding cost of ACA is much lower ($1.2 trillion) I failed to hear any of those same questions on the subject.
Fair. I was younger and more liberally-entrenched during the passage of ACA so I can't really argue with you there. But I do hear human interest stories on NPR every now and again from certain states where ACA seems to be failing.
Perhaps I’m listening differently, but I would rarely hear how it helped lower income Americans.
Well, the assertion that rolling back the estate tax will create better wages is really thin. I mean, personally, I'll benefit from the higher standard deduction, but beyond that projections for those beneath me on the income scale are looking at 1%-1.4% lowered taxes. That means the median American might get an extra $600ish bucks a year out of the deal, and since Rubio's amendment got shot down poor families might snag an extra $100-$200. A pittance if you consider even the conservative deficit projections.
Once you start accounting for the fact that college students will have to start counting grants as income, things look pretty grim for low income people who are trying to better themselves.
Not to get stuck in the weeds on this, we're talking about NPR, but I don't think there's much reporting to be done about how this helps lower income folk because there aren't a whole lot of lower income folk who are getting much out of the deal. When a new outlet reports what the bottom and the top 20%'s are getting out of the deal it sounds like a bad deal for the bottom because it just is a bad deal.
We're giving $3000-$85,000 in tax breaks to the top 20% and $50-$330 to the bottom 20%. I mean, that's just what it is... And it looks bad. And the list of what the people at the bottom are getting is exhausted so quickly that you have to sell it with trickle down and job creation arguments, while the top just gets thousands of dollars... Straight up.
Does a good news outlet try and sell bills to its listeners? I think they play clips of politicians trying to sell the concepts and then break down the numbers, which NPR definitely does on this subject.
I do want to close by saying that I respect your thoughts on this. I'm arguing for something I love and thus I have bias. You've been level-headed and respectful in a way that I don't experience very often when speaking to a conservative on reddit (which I don't take as an indictment on conservatives. It's reddit therefore it's often hostile territory for conservatives)
I appreciate the conversation as well! It was nice not to simply get down voted into oblivion for presenting a counter argument.
I’m a CPA who is fiscally conservative but actually pretty liberal from a social standpoint. I don’t see how anybody can truly be all to one side or the other and we should all strive to find a common ground. Cheers!
This should not be remarkable. This should be the norm.
Should be, yes. But that's not the world we live in now.
Lester Holt
He has a huge forehead though
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I like David Muir as well, but good Lord ABC nightly is 'clickbaity' fear mongering nowadays, ended with a 30-second feel-good.
PBS is great too
I don't watch very often but if I'm watching the nightly news its Lester Holt. I haven't watched CBS Evening News in awhile but I also seem to remember it not being that bad.
I also enjoy David Muir on World News Tonight for similar reasons
The bias is in which stories they choose to cover.
Truth
Another show to add to the DVR.
I've been playing around with podcasts and recording news shows to watch at my convenience. So far for news I'm been using the BBC's Global News podcast and a local news at noon channel.
BBC is great, especially for international news. I try to skip my local news - too much of it is fearmongering and lacking in real details.
Too bad NBC doesn't play nicely with streaming services....
I didn't know this existed and will give it a watch. Thanks for sharing. I just don't watch news on the TV anymore.
I really dig CBS Evening News with Jeff Glor.
See, at that point, I'd just recommend reading the news (NYT Online, Google News, etc.) or listening to good news podcasts (I like The Daily.) I watch TV for entertainment, and I read the news for news, but it's the merger of the two that caused CNN and FOX and that ilk of TV. I think it's dangerous to the politic.
You might also like the PBS Newshour!
Mass media is driven by public relations firms. Nightly national news is a prime example.
The PBS Newshour is pretty good too, but I have found that just reading news articles instead of having someone on television tell me the news gets me a lot more information, regardless of the source. And if the source is just re-hosting someone else's story there is usually a link to the original that makes it easy to go to the primary source.
Thank you for giving a genuine and honest look at news! I agree, that both sources (liberal or conservative) are insanely biased and just feed whatever agenda works for that particular group. I hate the whole bantering of, "you're liberal or conservative, so your opinion doesn't matter to me". We are all human and in this together, and the media has done a great job at making us forget it. EDIT: Apparently I need to learn the difference between your and you're
If I had like 10 wishes I think eliminating biased or straight up false news would be one of them. People literally believe anything a panel of "experts" on CNN or Fox say. Don't even get me started on how many adults believe what they read on Facebook. I had a former boss print out and bring an article to work because he felt everyone should read it to stay informed. Where was it from, you ask? Clickhole
Hahaha oh no. "A_Trane, this 'Onion' has quite the scoop today!"
I felt so much pity for this man. He must live in constant confusion and fear.
Want to know what the article was about?
KFC is now raising chicken with 4 legs to increase meat production.
It even had a picture.
Oh, that was my favorite urban legend back in the early days of the internet: "KFC had to change its name to the acronym instead of the full 'Kentucky Fried Chicken' because they were no longer selling legally-defined 'chicken', but meat grown from creatures in a lab."
I’d be happy if they at least admit their bias, I’m a fan of the Daily Wire, I know a lot of people don’t like it but they clearly state their bias and when they’re giving an opinion.
Oh this is a good one.
Here's a key reason why cable news is garbage: commercials. The promise of cable news was that, with so much time on the screen, they can cover more stories and dig deep into issues, with analysis and covering things beyond headlines.
But what actually happens is, ironically, the opposite. The requirement to cut to commercials cuts off any deep analysis. They have to stop talking before they get to the good stuff. Then they come back and have to re-intro.
Have you ever tried to watch a movie on basic cable? It's torture. This is not a movie this is real life important stuff and it's like watching Die Hard on TBS.
Combine this with the need for ratings and the lazy dependence on "conflict" so analysis is three morons yelling at each other.
I don't think they even cover more stuff then regular news, they just report the same stuff over and over. Stormy Daniels is accusing the president, here is the story. Commercial. Now let's talk about Stormy Daniels. "I think she is right!" "American doesn't like Stormy Daniels!" Ok great, commercial time. Welcome back from commercials, we're talking about Stormy Daniels. She is accusing the president. "I think she is right!..." Repeat x 24, that is a day of "news."
I'm a lefty lib and I think MSNBC is atrocious. "Today on Russia, Russia Russiad some Russia! Did Russia Russia a Russia, or could Russia have Russiad a Russia Russia? We don't know and we can't wait patiently for more information to come out or talk about anything else, so RUSSIA, BITCHES!" Now every dumb-ass liberal addicted to MSNBC in my life is talking like a Cold Warrior member of the Wolverines from 1986.
Thanks for letting me rant.
People said the Watergate story was overhyped as it was unfolding.
Avoid written opinion pieces too IMO... they can be fun if you just want to bask in political word rage for a bit, but mostly they're just garbage and don't contribute anything worthwhile to the conversation.
Elizabeth Bruenig at WaPo writes some really good and thoughtful opinion pieces
https://www.washingtonpost.com/people/elizabeth-bruenig/?utm_term=.a3854a696595
"It's time to give socialism a try."
No thank you; she's clearly just a partisan pundit. She would fit right in at Salon.
Did you read it tho
It's well written, but still nakedly partisan.
There’s nothing wrong with presenting a well-worded opinion when you’re writing an Editorial. It’s presenting opinions as breaking news that is problematic.
“Non-partisan” is a myth in defense of the status quo
My dad recently cancelled his cable after being a news junkie for years. He seems pretty lost, but I'm proud of him.
if you look at their viewership it's all average age of like 60+
Oh, you mean the demographic most likely to vote?
ayup
More importantly, it's just not an efficient way to be informed.
Watching 60 minutes of cable news is an empty and futile experience that might expose you to one or two ideas but is mostly commercials, bullshit, air space filled with talking point rubbish, and other useless stuff. Read the NYT for 60 minutes, though, and you'll actually intake a large amount of information.
If it tells you what to think or how to feel, it's not news.
By that metric, there are no major cable news stations. I'm politically about as centrist as it gets, and both sides of TV are absolute garbage. Both gladly and consistently misrepresent facts. Both consistently protect certain groups of people regardless of situation and vilify other groups of people regardless of situation. Both consistently exclude any information or story that goes against their views, and they present their opinions as facts.
I'm a raging leftoholic, and I agree with you.
Also, as a non-Democrat, even papers like the NYT have gotten exhausting lately. On any given day I go to their website and count what headlines have to do with Trump without scrolling down out of the total headlines. I don't say "which articles are negative about Trump", because it's the NYT, and they're all negative about Trump.
It's shocking just how obsessed news sources are with Trump. Right now (12:30PM Eastern on March 29), 9 or 10 of the NYT's top 16 headlines are about Trump, and in all of them he's depicted in a negative light - even the explicitly news articles.
I don't like Trump, I think he's terrible for the country and a raging narcissist, and if he agreed with me politically I would vote against him, but that's insane.
It's shocking just how obsessed news sources are with Trump.
Well, he is the man with his finger on The Button, with a penchant for making outrageously uninformed statements, with a historically chaotic cabinet, currently embroiled in multiple lawsuits including being investigated for possible treasonous behavior, so... isn't that appropriate?
I don't disagree, but there's other stuff going on in the world than Trump. I'm not saying he shouldn't be reported on, I'm saying that I'd like to see other very important issues covered.
Right now it looks a lot like the way right wing media sources reported on Obama during his presidency. Yes, Obama was an important source of news, but yikes.
raging leftoholic
I had to read that three times before it didn't say "raging alcoholic".
What really scares me is how many people will accept anything from their preferred 'news' source. For young lefties, the one I see a lot of is "Now This". Sometimes they make valid points, but cheese and rice everything they put out is as biased as is possible. I'm not really sure what young conservatives listen to/read, maybe Shapiro, but also super biased.
I just want info, man. I don't need to be told what to think or how to feel.
Yeah, I can do my thinking for myself just fine, thank you.
I have a multi-spectrum political newsroll I follow on my own to try to get as many perspectives as possible, and read as much as I can from primary sources of people or ideas in the news. Things like Now This, or Praeger U are just partisan propaganda organs which ought to be ignored by everyone, as far as I'm concerned. Read up on various news perspectives, if you read about an incident, find as many perspectives on that incident as you can, and talk to people.
I'm not concerned that my worldview will be utterly decimated by people who disagree with me, and if it can be utterly decimated by people who disagree with me, it deserves to be.
Endnote: I thought I was being clever with the leftoholic thing. Whoops!
I forgot about Praeger U. Yeah, that one seems to be pretty much conservative-only in its views.
My biggest issue is the knee-jerk vilification from both sides when something happens.
Left: X happened because of racism.
I mean, maybe...but maybe we should get more information and proof and consider other possibilities for why X happened before jumping to the most sinister cause possible.
Right: Z happened because of Islamic terrorism.
I mean, maybe...or maybe we should get more proof and information for why Z happened before we jump to conclusions. I don't care what the truth is, just that it is the truth.
When it comes to big events, I generally speaking have adopted a "I'll wait until tomorrow before I even bother looking into this event." I wasn't even aware there was right wing speculation that the Parkland shooter was a leftist. There's no way to know most of the time from first-day reporting what exactly happened. My knowing about it right this second isn't going to change how things unfold, but it might make me an ill informed rage machine.
Austin bombings? I knew they happened, but I didn't start reading about the perpetrator until well after they got the guy. I still don't really know what to think about it, but folks I know who started reading about him immediately have very particular, unshakable ideas about who and what he was.
The list goes on, but it just doesn't do any good to be immediately informed, when no information even exists. We knew next to nothing about the Vegas shooter in the first 48 hours.
And they're all accomplishing the same goal - entertainment
It's a TV show like any other with characters, stories, heroes, and villains. The very concept of a news source that does much more than cover current events and provide editorials is simply not informative, it's just television, mind-rotting television.
Not saying to watch less TV, just to watch better TV. There are tons of great shows on these days, it's really a second golden age of television, don't waste that time with the cable news.
I hate that Trump and his supporters make me feel like I have to defend CNN. CNN sucks, not because it reports on all the awful stuff Trump actually does, but because it's corporate news-as-entertainment whose purpose is to sensationalize for ratings instead of informing.
NPR is my jam.
CBS Online is pretty decent about keeping their opinion out of it. Fox News Online is also fairly decent, since most of their articles are straight from AP, and its easy to disable the videos. Just... don't read the comment sections. Can't believe those are real people.
I tend to agree. All cable networks have their problems. I would argue that CNN isn’t exactly all that left leaning, they’re just crappy. MSNBC does have a strong liberal bias, but I like Rachel Maddow, as she actually does her research and is damn smart. Fox is just absolute trashy right wing propaganda.
not until the current administration have I become a screeching liberal caricature
This is painfully relatable.
I honest to god never wanted anything more than to not be compelled to give a shit. I've only ever voted twice, against GWB in his second term and against Trump. Like I will legit only leave the house to vote D (I live in MA so it's been sort of pointless during my lifetime) if the candidate is offensive to me personally.
And I voted Hilary thinking there was no chance he'd win, I just couldn't not vote and live with myself in the off chance the impossible happened.
And now we're beyond the goddamn pale. My vote didn't really mean much, but at least I don't have malicious complacency on my conscience, I guess.
Hell, being so offensive that no one can tolerate their own negligent complacency is probably the worst thing Trump ever did to the Republican Party.
i know exactly what you mean...tho i live in a 'battleground' state so I have been decent about voting.....
I really want to go back to not giving a shit at all but the president is so offensive to me I find myself caring more
Also educate yourself on how to be a discerning consumer of media in general.
Citations Needed is a really great left-leaning podcast that focuses on media critique. I've found it really helpful for digesting and interpreting corporate media with a more critical eye.
Here's some good entry points, depending on which topic interests you the most:
Episode 19: Lotteryism Part I -- How a Compliant Press Fuels the Spectacle of 'Winning'
Episode 21: Quantifying Negative Media Portrayals of People of Color
Episode 23: The Media's Grim Addiction to Perseverance Porn (my personal favorite, great episode about a really common media trope that I've never given a second thought to)
Episode 25: The Banality of CIA-Curated Definitions of ‘Democracy’
Npr for me. Advertisers shouldn't be paying your news source
Yep. I've never watched cable news, but I saw MSNBC the other day and that shit is unwatchable. It was an anchor with the leading headline LATEST ON TRUMP TAX SCAM. Like, how can you be neutral when you're editorializing like that? Stick to PBS folks.
Yeah if I'm watching politics on TV I'm watching live coverage of a Senate hearing, or some other usually unbearably boring CSPAN type thing. I don't do it often, granted, but at least I can form an opinion based on source material.
Let's not forget that local stations are being usurped by extreme right wing news now as well. Sinclair Broadcasting Group has been buying up stations across the country and is forcing their people to push stories that engender rage, and sending talking points that they all have to push as well.
Dark times ahead.
I'd like to add that for international news, I have found most corporate, western outlets are not reliable or honest at all. Whether it's FOX or MSNBC or CNN, they are all incredibly biased when it comes to international conflicts, particularly in Syria.
I'm in the Uk and I get so fed up of sky news and BBC. BBC is supposed to be impartial but jeez is it old fashioned.
I started youtubing Al Jazeera news channel to get a better picture of what was happening globally.
Just don't go to them for Middle East coverage unless you're looking for the perspective of the government of Qatar.
Yeh I take all my news with a dollop of salt but At least it's hearing the other side. As opposed to the uk n us saying what a wonderful job they're doing.
I've seen some great stories there on SE Asia and sub-Saharan Africa.
It's not even necessarily an issue of biased news; it's an issue of not wasting your time worrying about shit that's outside of your circle of control.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/01/the-low-information-diet/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/07/how-big-is-your-circle-of-control/
I've been told it's best to read neutral, international, text-based news instead of watching TV on the 24 hour news cycle. Pick a couple sources right and left of center and use those as your basis, then fill in the rest as needed.
Yes. I hate watching a group of people argue about the news. That's not news. That's their opinions.
Cable news isn't news. It's mostly opinion pieces with a few factual stories every couple of hours, which you could get from reading a reputable paper. Cable news is complete garbage mostly, outside of a couple of good hosted shows that delve into a specific topic.
I get my news briefing in the morning from The Skimm, which is geared towards millennial but is completely unbiased with a few jokes thrown in. I get an email at around 6:30 when I wake up in the morning with all of the major headlines and it takes about 5 minutes to read — would highly recommend
Hear hear! Speaking as a right wing trump supporter that you would probably detest, I heartily agree that most mass media is bullshit. Even reuters has the feel of narrative manipulation these days. I totally support your right to form your own opinions and spread them, even if you're wrong. Preach on!
C-SPAN!! (Sorry if you don't have cable or don't live in the U.S.)
C-SPAN is the fucking best. No commentary. No anchors (except for the amazing people fielding viewer calls who truly are doing God's work). Ever watch a debate, or a rally, or whatever, and the cable news analysts start talking over what's happening to give you their two cents? Turn to C-SPAN. Straight content, no bullshit.
I agree with this but also suggest people READ the news. Cable and network and even PBS news is really just glossing over the actual story and in some cases paying pundits to tell us what to think about the news.
A subscription to the Washington Post is $3.99 a month through Amazon Prime and the first 6 months are free. It really is worth it.
I’ve started trying this wild new method for news. Search up some news sites from different countries, say Australia, Germany, Japan, UK, and India. Or any other smattering of countries. Most sites have an option for an English language version. Then just scan the world news of a few different places. You tend to only find 1 in 5 articles about Trump instead of 4 out of 5.
I gave up cable news in high school and never looked back. Print media and/or non-Sinclair-owned local affilliates only these days.
What? Then where do you get your news? Reddit? YouTube?
NPR is slightly left leaning, but tends to be non-sensationalist and fact-oriented. The BBC is the best source for world news, hands down.
CNN and Fox News are literally ripping the country apart.
And don't run away with soundbites! The one that always pops in my head is "legitimate rape." The dude was talking about "legally defined rape," not "rape I condone." The runaway political polarizing was absolutely disgusting. Nobody checks their sources anymore.
I don't think he meant "legally defined rape", that wouldn't have made sense with the rest of his comment. He was talking about what women's bodies do in the case of a "legitimate rape".
I think he was just implying that lots of women lie about being raped, and claiming that you don't get pregnant if you were actually raped. So it was pretty terrible.
Edit: I didn't mean for you to get downvoted. Your broader point, that people should think critically and shouldn't just assume that soundbites are fair or in context, is totally valid.
Yeah, I'm not here to argue the actual point that was made. His greater point was dumb and wrong. What people took from that soundbite, though, was equally dumb and wrong.
The problem is that he made up that term after the fact, in an attempt to cover his ass after the blowback reached him.
http://time.com/3001785/todd-akin-legitimate-rape-msnbc-child-of-rape/
The problem with "legitimate rape" wasn’t that people thought he was condoning any kind of rape, but that he said a woman won’t get pregnant if it’s "legitimate rape". He’s saying that abortion should be illegal even if the woman was raped because if a woman gets pregnant from being raped then she wasn’t really raped.
Yeah, I know what was said, and it was stupid garbage. I don't agree with it at all. However, I saw a lot of people running around like 3 year olds with shitty toilet paper in their hands yelling "Legitimate rape! Legitimate rape! This guy thinks rape is ok!"
You can be on the right side for dumb reasons.
You can be on the right side for dumb reasons.
I like that
I'm liberal leaning
and...
I think Fox News is more reprehensible than others
Makes sense.
I also think CNN blows. So...what?
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You're an idiot.
That was intelligent.
A fox News host called a 17 year old out because he got rejected from some colleges yesterday.
HAHA! One day he's "leading a revolution" the next he's "only a 17 year old, whahhh".
Attack a kid personally?
If he can't get into college he probably shouldn't be seen as a hero for a "revolution". I'd love to see this "revolution" of unarmed people.
See, my problem isn't criticism of the Parkland kids' actions. You could make the case that while you sympathize with what they went through, that their goals aren't realistic or run counter to the importance of the 2nd Amendment. I don't feel that way personally, but you could nonetheless use that argument and I'd be fine with it.
What I have an issue with is personally attacking them as people and the sheer harassment being levied at them. And I've watched that happen all across the opinion shows on Fox.
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Note: I might accidentally make you angry with the following conversation, but it is not because I'm trying to be condescending or insulting. I'm trying to let you see an additional perspective. And if it comes across as insulting to you, it is not intended to be.
I'm a parent too, and based on what you've said, you really seem to be drawing false equivalencies and not fully understanding what entails personal attacks. I hope I'm wrong in that, but just in case I'm correct, I'd like to show you what I mean.
Insults are different than personal attacks. When you make personal (ad hominem) attacks against someone, you target the speaker of the argument rather than the argument itself.
Take that very article you linked to me. The very first word in the title is capitalized and separated from the rest: DERANGED. Before any arguments or any context, it has already told you this guy is crazy! And unlike the word crazy, which can be a neutral or even affectionate ("I like him, he's crazy"), every instance I've heard deranged used was to indicate immediately dangerous insanity. I mean, fuck, look at the picture they used of him. I'm surprised they didn't photoshop in bubbles of froth in his teeth. In the first paragraph they have the word, "unstable".
So right there they are telling you ahead of time, "Don't listen to him, he's literally crazy." Target the speaker, not the argument.
And then right after, it posts this:
It is worth reminding you that David Hogg’s father was a “crisis simulator” in the FBI, David Hogg’s mother is an anti-Trump activist, and that David Hogg himself wasn’t even in the same building as the Parkland shooter.
Like, holy shit, it isn't enough to attack him as being literally bonkers, but then to drag his parents into it to try to denigrate him even more? And then try to dismiss the terror, sorrow, and anger he must have felt at having his classmates murdered because he wasn't in the immediate vicinity of the shooting?
And then "irrelevant" pops up. And then "alt-left funded" and "theater-trained" (dog whistle for "This isn't a real crisis, it's one manufactured or ginned up by actors"). All of these are designed to sully the reputation of the speaker and make him seem untrustworthy rather than actually examine and debate the merits of what he says. This is the essence of the personal attack. If a Trump supporter hears someone dismiss what Trump says simply because it's Trump that's saying it, I'm sure they'd get rightfully angry as well.
It takes halfway through the article before it starts to try to debate the merit of what he says, noting that his notion of "school to prison" was debunked by a research paper (Sidenote: I found it darkly amusing that the paper that examines the effectiveness of police officers in schools was written by a think tank for police officers, and I'll have to delve into that later). Likewise, it notes that he himself did not have solutions. THIS is perfectly fine. This actually addresses his statements and the value and merit of them.
Aaaaand then it goes into Twitter responses. Three fourths of the responses are once again attacks on him rather than his arguments, the only one with any merit for debate calling his rhetoric hyperbolic (with an added insult, but that'll come later). Funnily enough, the tweet they're replying to isn't correct, claiming David is saying that the NRA wants the blood of children on its hands when in context David is simply saying that they don't care if they have blood on their hands as long as the organization gets money.
Now we get into insults, which are a different animal entirely. Yes, David Hogg did indeed use insulting language towards the NRA, calling them "fuckers" and "pathetic". I'm pretty sure he was talking about the leadership corps rather than the members of the NRA as he was referring to sales and money. But if you feel personally attacked by his words, and you can't find it in your heart to sympathize with his trauma and let it go, then the mature thing to do would be to ask for an apology. Make note to him that not everyone that belongs to the NRA is hardline against any gun restrictions or safety measures. Teach him of why you feel the NRA is important, and your perspective on school shootings.
But don't dismiss his perspective. I don't know about your kids, but mine experienced at least a couple potential copycats that had to be stopped. And it seems to be growing worse. And not a lot of work had been done for years on what the root causes are because of a fear that it might lead to gun restrictions. This is an untenable position. I respect the right to bear arms as much as possible, but we can't let our fear of what we might discover are the root causes prevent us from doing the right thing.
Read the quotes of Hogg in the article.. ignore the other BS.
The kid wants to lash out and attack adults, then he better be ready to take it.
You can't get into actual discussions with people that don't already know existing laws, have never attempted to purchase a firearm, and don't know what a semi automatic firearm is.
You can write a long essay if that makes you happy, but you are essentially bitching about an article. I only linked it to give you his own quotes. I could give a fuck less about what was written in the authors opinion
I was using your example to illustrate the difference between personal attacks, insults, and addressing the argument's merits. If it turned into an essay, it was only in the service of trying to inform you of additional perspectives.
It's a valid criticism to note Hogg did not have a full understanding of the laws, nor an understanding of the precise definition of a semi-automatic weapon.
BUT he does have a full understanding that the laws are inadequate to stop school shootings from happening. He's trying to find solutions, even as his understanding is incomplete, and push those in power to implement something. If you feel he is in the wrong in his methods to push for temporary solutions that don't address the core problems, then give him alternatives. He is desperate to find some way to keep it from happening again, or at least to make it so infrequent that we can paint it as an outlier again.
See, the fundamental problem here isn't guns or even violence, but random violence. We focus on these mass shootings because they make us feel like we might be killed no matter how good a person we are or how safe we might try to make ourselves or how nice we are to others. And the causes of these shootings, where someone starts killing others that have done them no harm, are more than likely many and varied. You find those causes, you might be able to craft solutions. And I guarantee, if you find the right solution and introduce it, it'll spread. Shit, if you find a good solution, I'll be more than happy to spread it myself.
if you find the right solution and introduce it
People do not want a solution. Take the armed guards in schools approach or the armed teachers. People just scream NO! They want more gun laws passed. However, there are SO many gun laws already on the books. When I go to buy a gun.. first of all, in my state, I have to get a license to purchase a handgun. But let's talk rifle...
I bout an AR online and had it sent to an FFL.
The FFL called to do a background check on me with me in the store.
The coast was clear so he did all of his paperwork and gave my the rifle.
People think you can order them on amazon and have them shipped to your house. You can't have a discussion with people who do not understand what they're discussing. If you were an accountant, I could never have a discussion with you about doing someone's taxes.
People want immediate solutions. And they want to feel like they're doing something. You can blame that on our culture, where we have instant access to a lot of tools and thus get impatient when instant solutions aren't forthcoming.
Take one of their solutions: Banning of the sale of bump stocks. Will that actually prevent someone from using guns on the next school? Not at all. It might reduce the frequency of mass shootings due to the lack of available tools to make it more efficient, but it's a band-aid at best. Or one of your solutions with armed guards or armed teachers. There was an armed guard at the Parkland shooting, and they didn't even try to engage the shooter. And that solution doesn't try to stop the shootings from happening in the first place, just tries to reduce the casualty numbers (one of the biggest differences I see between liberal and conservative solutions is prevention versus containment).
With the blame from some conservative outlets on violent video games or movies, while it's misplaced due to studies that show they reduce violence by having an outlet, it's at least trying to get at root causes and not slapping a temporary patch on things. Likewise the liberal outlets promoting better mental health services is at least trying to address the root. But they're guesswork at best until more real comprehensive studies come out.
MY best guess, based on the cultural differences between our country and others, is a combination of hyper-individualism, glorification of violence, celebrity worship, dehumanization of people, ostracization of mental health problems, and feelings of powerlessness. But once again, that's just a guess. I don't KNOW because not enough research has come out. And if the research came out and said something against my ideology, I'd change my ideology.
Plant based instead of animal based products.
Im only 5 months into a plant based diet, but the most surprising thing to me is how easy it's been. Plus my digestive system feels better than ever. I don't get that lethargic feeling when I eat a big meal anymore.
I'm amazed by how many people say they could never be vegan or be on a plant-based diet, especially with all of the options we have today. I've been doing it for almost 20 years and it kind of started it on a whim, almost by accident.
I once said that!
In high school and college I was the "I could never go vegetarian, I love meat too much!" type.
Shortly after college I became the "I could never go vegan, that's too extreme!" vegetarian.
Aaaaaand now I'm vegan.
Turns out that the more you learn the more likely you are to make the ethical choice. I knew essentially nothing about meat production when I was paying for it, now I know and won't participate.
I don't get that lethargic feeling when I eat a big meal anymore.
This is one of my favorite parts of being vegan! I love eating relatively large quantities of food and not feeling sluggish and weighed down afterward.
This is me (not on vegan diet, but on keto) after getting Carbs out of my meals.
Interesting! I love carbs. Total opposite.
Just letting you know that you can be vegan and maintain a keto diet. Check out /r/veganketo
I put off going vegan for a long time because I made excuses for myself about how difficult it would be. I would tell myself that being vegan was too hard, that they were all protein deficient dirty hippies, and that nobody could really do it. After months of telling myself this, I finally was convinced to just give it my best shot.
My months of excuses felt pretty lame when I continued going to the grocery store and picking up the groceries that I wanted after becoming vegan.
I've been vegitarian for a year and 3 months and stopped eating eats a little over a year ago. It's not difficult in the slightest, I'm waiting to give up milk until I move out to live on my own(a little over a year)
I'm in a very similar situation to you, and was holding off giving up milk etc. I realised though how silly this is though, and now just buy my own dairy alternatives. I'll still eat meals that are cooked form me with dairy in, but when I cook I don't use it. You should give it a go - if it doesn't work for you then fair enough but you won't know until you try it!
You still eat dairy then... anyways I plan on giving it up once I'm on my own buying my own food because it would litterally take no effort. I will admit it's silly to some extent. You should give completely giving up dairy a try especially eggs if you still eat them since so many more chickens are effected and worse than cows.
Ah shit really? I didn't realise... Tell you what, I will if you will
Reddit is awesome because it makes pacts like this possible.
Sorry but I won't go vegan until I'm living on my own or at least graduated
Hey, congrats! 4 months for me as of yesterday! <3
WOO HOO KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK
Unfortunately for me, I've tried both animals and plant based diets and I've found that my genetics and ancestry heavily favor meat and dairy. To the extent that a large blade steak will make me energetic, happy, and hard working for a day, while quinoa just makes me sad and weak.
Was looking for this answer. A well planned plant based diet not only will reduce your greenhouse gas emissions but will also keep you healthier and save plenty of animals.
Along those lines, avoid products with palm oil.
once you are aware of the consequences of paying for animal products its a lot easier to stop paying for them.
Trying to be aware of the consequences of your actions is first step to living an ethical live.
Animal agriculture is the leading cause of deforestation, species extinction, ocean dead zones, water pollution, and habitat destruction
Eating animal products has been show to cause inflammation, stroke, diabetes, kidney disease, liver disease, lung disease, alzheimer's and most autoimmune diseases. To name a few.
although 99% of meat comes from factory farms we like to imagine that we get our meat from happy grass fed local farms. well in that case ask your self.
Is there a way to humanely kill someone who doesn't want to die ?
If you live in a 1st world country with easy access to meat and dairy alternatives. Why would you still pay for animal products ?
The problem is that most people stopped reading at the first sentence.
Yes. Most people would rather look the other way than take a hard look at themselves and their diets - and address it. They'd rather play mental gymnastics with themselves than just leave meat off their plate. Source: Was an omnivore for 26 years of my life before going veg 2 years ago and regularly played mind games with myself trying to justify my meat consumption.
can confirm
Source: I stopped reading at the first sentence.
Second
Third
Another problem is that they imply that eating animal products prevents you from living an ethical life, which is an extreme claim that will turn off many many people from the rest of the post. Living ethically is absolutely more than just a vegan/vegetarian agenda, and implying otherwise feels like they are trying to take a moral high ground that is not their right to take.
An ethical life is obviously more than just diet, but veganism is definitely morally superior to other dietary styles, I don't see how you could argue otherwise.
Humans are omnivorous. We evolved to consume some meat in our diets. Just like any other at least partly carnivorous species. I fail to see a moral failing in participating in the ecosystem we evolved in. There are practices that are cruel in industrial meat production, and I believe they are reprehensible. However I think it's naive to proclaim that a vegan diet is the most morally superior. Where is the failing in morality when one thing consumes another for survival?
Omnivorous doesn't mean that we have to eat everything, but just that we can.
We have a self awareness the likes which animals do not have, we have the capacity to make choices that they cannot. We are no longer eating meat for survival; we can live fine without it. Therefore by including meat in our diets we are making the declaration that our enjoyment of that animal product is more important than the animal whose suffering went into its creation.
I'm not sure we can just claim that that is what is being declared when we eat meat. It could just as well be a person declaring that meat is a valid component of their diet, and that animals are a natural source of that nutrient. I do believe that the future will become more vegetarian and vegan with time. I'm especially excited at the idea of perfecting cruelty free cloned muscle cells. However, I don't believe that there exists a kind of moral obligation to alter diet. It feels self-righteous to me to demand that others change their diet when they have a perfectly valid biological basis for consuming meat. I just believe we should be fighting cruelty as opposed to meat consumption. And I do believe those things are distinct.
You're arguments have given me points to consider though. Thank you for taking the time to explain your point of view. Like most meat eaters I know, we are just as interested in living morally as anyone else. We try our best with the perspectives we have, and we listen when we can. It's possible one day I will be truly convinced to go meat-free, and you will have contributed to that if it happens.
We DID need to eat animals to survive, we don’t anymore.
Stop being rational. Truth turns people off, according to that guy.
I'm saying regardless of need there is a valid biological basis for eating meat that can't be ignored when considering the ethics.
That’s not how that works. We used to rape and murder in much higher rates too. Does that mean we have a biological basis for raping and murdering? No
Actually it does mean we have a biological basis for those things. Arguable more on the social and psychological side, but rape and murder are almost universal in all human societies. That doesn't make them good, but you can't pretend that those tendencies don't come at least in part from the set up of our biology. Specifically brain structure and function.
And the same goes for meat eating. We have the biological capacity for that consumption. However meat eating is not inherently immoral. Animals consume meat for its nutrients all the time, and few would argue that immoral. And we are absolutely animals in most scientific senses of that word. And so there is a morally defendable stance to eating meat. I'm not saying it's the only true stance, but it merits consideration. Just as your arguments for the immorality of meat merit consideration.
My bad. I was saying one thing while meaning another. What I meant was that while we might want to do those things sometimes, we don’t not have to.
On that point I agree with you the most. And it's why I greatly detest the openly cruel conditions that animals are being industrially processed in.
It will change eventually. Huge changes will happen in our lifetime.
The best thing you can do to prevent that is to stop buying it
It makes it understandable and maybe even makes it not as bad as it would be if we didn't have any inclinations whatsoever.
But whatever are our inclinations won't at all change what is the most ethical way to live, that's dependent on only what is the best way.
Or would you argue that if someone had a really strong urge to do something bad, and he did (which in my opinion would probably make it sort of understandable and thus not as bad as it would otherwise be), he would be living as morally as he could? I would argue that certainly the morally superior way of living for this person would be to still not make the bad thing that he has this urge for to do.
That you are inclined to do something doesn't make ethical.
Eating cruelty-free bowls of twigs and lawn clippings for too long evidently does weird things to the mind.
Eating cruelty-free bowls of twigs and lawn clippings for too long evidently does weird things to the mind.
That sounds like playing the victim to me
How so?
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All essential nutrients can be had from non-animal sources. It's really not even hard since most plants are very nutrient dense.
Lions and other obligate carnivores need meat to survive. Omnivorous animals don't have the options humans do. And we would never look to animals as a guide for our own behavior in any other situation.
We don't need meat and have the ability to be healthy without it.
But there still exists a valid natural basis for meat consumption that can't be ignored for ethical consideration. And we look to animals all the time to eduate ourselves in human behavior. Animal models are extremely prevalent and useful in psychological research. It is also worth noting that we are animals. Smart ones, but animals none the less. We aren't so far removed from "nature" as some might think.
Rape, infanticide, and theft are all common occurrences in nature, yet we don't use these natural behaviors as a guide for how we should act.
For just about anyone with access to a grocery store there is no reason to eat meat in today's world.
And I'm well aware humans are animals. It's one of the reasons I don't eat them. I can't find a trait that makes it ok to kill an animal unnecessarily but not a human. For a long time I thought it was our intelligence. But we treat the severally mentally handicapped, infants, and senile people the same as any anyone else.
I am not saying that nature should dictate all of our moral decision making. I am saying that nature can help greatly educate our moral decision making, and that it can't be ignored when making a moral value judgement. Rape, infanticide, and theft are destructive to the social fabric of society. So we judge those actions as morally wrong.
The consumption of meat is not destructive to the fabric of society. In fact the domestication of animals for food represented a great step forward for the creation of a more peaceful and complex moral society. I do believe that a next moral step for society might be a more vegan mindset. I do believe the cruel conditions we keep food animals in is morally despicable given current technology. I do not believe the current evidence justifies judgement of people who are simply satisfying an evolved biological need for nutrients that meat naturally, abundantly, and has historically provided.
Appeal to nature is a logical fallacy for a reason. The fact that something is natural has no bearing on whether or not it is ethical.
There's not much more for me to say other than there is no biological need for humans to eat meat. Humans did need it in the past, but that is no longer the case.
As for soceity, I recommend looking at the environmental impact animal agriculture has on the planet. The problems are widespread and don't just stop with he animals suffering. I'm on mobile right now, but I could link to studies showing increased rates of PTSD and crime among slaughter house workers later if you're interested.
I am not using appeal to nature. I am saying nature plays an inseparable role in ethical decision making. And that additionally there is a social and ethical defense of meat eating. I had never heard the ptsd thing though. I will consider that.
But that is an appeal to nature. Why should nature play a role in dictating what is ethical? There is no way to argue that it should without appealing to nature or tradition. It's a circular argument.
I'm not sure what ethical defence there is to killing healthy individuals who don't want to die at a fraction of their lifespan when we could eat anything else.
The problem is steak is just so damn delicious.
Some people value ethics over taste.
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hopefully that will change :(
Hope so too, more delicious meat for me!
Lolz good one! Vegans resigned! xD my friend!
That is actually a real concern though, although I was not being serious there, fish is lovely food source, which I would be remissed to not have my grandkids experience, as it may not be feasible or economically vaible in the future, so one can only hope less people chose to consume it, although I won't blame anyone who won't.
It is also why I could never understand homophobes, who would complain about a decrease in competetion? More gay dudes can only be good for straight dudes!
ok
The problem with stealing candy from babies is that candy is so damn delicious.
Therefore it's okay to punch babies in their faces to take their candy.
It doesn't make it okay, but it does make it harder to resist the urge to punch a baby in the face.
You're not eating babies.
Instead, we eat veal. Wait a second...
/u/HuhHarding believes veal is the same as consuming human children. You heard it here first, folks.
Idk I kinda get what they are saying. Ethically speaking, why is the life of a young animal less important than that of a human? Just because we aren't that species makes them less important than us, and therefore it's more okay to kill and eat then? Where does that line of thinking end? If I can't justify racism then I feel like I can't justify speciesism.
That's a bit of a stretch.
whoosh
So are a million other foods
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Naan, Biryani, Paratha, Masala Dosa > Steak
God yes! Chana Masala everyday.
My mum's Aloo Paratha is to die for 😋😍
No, but there are other things that taste great.
Getting hungry just thinking about a good T-Bone tbh.
Animal agriculture is the leading cause of deforestation, species extinction, ocean dead zones, water pollution, and habitat destruction
Unethically sourced palm oil is also a cause for everything listed above. Beware of plant-based products, too.
I don't think anyone is claiming that plant-based products don't have their issues; just that the issues are usually fewer and less severe.
Except for all of the slavery involved.
Are you suggesting that thetypical meal for a typical vegan or plant-based dieter contributes more to slavery than the typical meal for a typical non-vegan/meat-eater/etc?
No. I'm saying that people should consider where they get their vegetables and other plant products, too. Switching over to plants isn't the be-all, end-all of an ethical lifestyle. A lot of people use it as a moral high ground without realizing where everything comes from.
Fair enough, but all else being equal, switching to a plant-based diet typically has far fewer unethical consequences than not doing so.
Indonesia literally is covered in smog because of palm plantations and about 100,000 died from it, and that's just one country, but ok.
The person you are responding to has been using the ceteris paribus argument all over this thread. It's a convenient way to ignore the consequences of her actions.
What? How so?
You have been making straw man arguments all over this thread. It's a convenient way to avoid addressing the actual arguments being put forth.
What you are saying appears to not be relevant to my comments.
People are literally dying because of certain plant products. It's pretty relevant.
I'm not denying that. I think you're confused.
You seem to be purposefully omitting the fact that not just vegans buy products with palm oil - and further, that the relatively low percentage of vegans in the world would actually indicate that it's the non-vegans causing the problems.
I don't think that vegans are the only ones doing it at all. Just don't pretend to be morally superior while still supporting slave labor and the destruction of the environment.
So does eating meat mean I live an unethical life?
Not necessarily, but all else being equal, someone that chooses to do things that they know cause harm and death to others is less ethical than someone that chooses to not do these things.
You say others, but those that are dying are lesser animals. If someone were eating human, that would be an actual issue.
Are you saying that because they are animals they deserve to die? I don't really believe it's ethical to kill a living being that doesn't want to die and is capable of feeling pain for no other reason than you like the taste of its flesh.
The only problem I have with this line of thinking is people who claim this is "self-evident" or claim it is simply more ethical (not just personally), it is just a subjective belief, with as little value as any other. You can make the argument that it may be beneficial for future human survival, and that could actually hold some real merit above emotion but that seems not to be what most people do. It's similar to the abortion debate, some subjectively value a fetus while I would give an abortion, and the life snuffed out, as much thought as the flushing of a toilet. I'm at fault for seeing that as self-evident, but at least I have some humilty and do not cast people who think otherwise (in that case anti-abortion advocates) as less ethical than me.
It is not just a subjective belief. People can and do argue for ethical conclusions and I've yet to see a coherent view that states that animal life has no inherent value whatsoever. How would you argue for that? What makes human life have value but other animal's not? Rationality? Okay, then that would make all humans differ on value regarding on how smart they are and actually make some humans (mentally handicapped, elderly who has lost cognitive capacities) even less valuable than some other animals.
And if you take non-human animal life have inherent value at all, it makes killing them prima facie wrong.
People argue for the stupidest things, many people argue for religion as objective truth, doesn't make them any more right.
I do not need to argue that animal life has no inherent value, that is the "neutral" position and the burdon of proof lies with those who propose that it does. In other words, it is for people like you to come up with a valid reason, any valid reason, that any animal has value (humans included) and I have so far never heard of any, none. The only things I have heard people argue, stem from subjective ideologies, subjective feelings of empathy, and the fact that we are human, thus making it no more than yet another subjective belief. As I hinted at before, human life has no more value than any other animal, "rationality" changes nothing, and matters not. The only changing factor is that I, myself, am human, and it thus serves me and my offspring's purposes to act as if we had value (for similar reasons cats have more value to me, subjectively, than rats). If I was an elephant I would say the same but of elephants (metaphorically).
As you mention though, things can have value if you carefully define it, so someone mentally handicapped would have less value than a fully functioning human, if you define value as "human survival and prosperity", making mentally handicapped people less "valuable" than many domesticated animals. But that is an arbitrary distinction and it is ultimatelly subjective which definitions of value you chose to use.
Okay, so you're arguing for the moral error theory then, that there is no right or wrong at all. That's very hard to argue against I admit and as far as metaethics go, that is in my opinion a very plausible theory.
However, whether there is something like moral value in the world ontologically, people do think ethically. And most people want their ethical thinking to be coherent. Most people would say that for example "pleasure" is an inherently good thing and "pain" is an inherently bad thing and most people, whether they thought there were the ontological entities in the universe to make the sentence true, would think that causing pain is an inherently bad thing. And likewise causing pleasure is a good thing (of course for both we are talking of things that just cause pain or pleasure and nothing else). It's very intuitive, because those are the things that every sentient being avokds and wants (even the masochist gets pleasure from the pain he inflicts on himself). So even without taking the ethical value to be an ontologically existent thing, we, or most of us, take it to be the case that there are bad things and good things. And if something is able to sensate these things, it's pretty logical tho think that their lives are then worth something ; at least the lives are worth something to them, and ethics is pretty much just taking others in to account when we make our decisions. And then we also come to the question : why would the same sensation to some other being be more good than to other?
Anyway, it seems very odd of you to argue that veganism is not morally superior because of things (any things) if your point now seems to be that there's no value whatsoever other than in a subjective way to one's self. No shit the morally most superior way of living is to take the most advantage of all other living and non living things that you subjectively don't care about, if you take ethics to be a subjective thing. But then you can't argue that it's morally reprehensible what we do to any animals at factory farms or even to other humans anyway, if it's just subjective anyway.
It is very hard to argue against, I agree, and many times I have wished it wasn't.
I sympathize with these people you mention and I would also want my ethical thinking to be coherent, but I've found that it is impossible task and instead I embrace the hypocrisy and absurdity. Many of the things I feel lack sound reasoning, even if they have or had an evolutionary purpose. I have been raised to despise murder without a second thought, I have not come to that conclusion through reason, although I can now later justify it; I inherently feel more compassion towards women than men, even though I see no reason to not dispense it equally across the genders.
I find the point of pain and pleasure being seen as inherently bad and good for most people interesting, hadn't thought about that. It is incredibly an short sighted view, pain can be good, and not only because it tells us what to avoid as you mention, but because it can also teach us and make us listen. We can most obviously see this in child-rearing, where the best parents do not seek to make their children as happy as they can be, but to make them competent, so that they are prepared for adult life and will have a higher likelihood of being successful and securing a mate of high quality. Similarly, pleasure can be bad, most obvious in overindulgence; eating is pleasurable, but too much is unhealthy, and the human craving for sugar is now bad as we have sugar in overabundance. This sort of shows many of the problems I have with these strong ethical positions that pose as truths, they are dangerous.
And if something is able to sensate these things, it's pretty logical tho think that their lives are then worth something
I don't think so, negative and positive stimuli (which pain and pleasure is) can exist in many things which most people would not put much worth, insects for one, plants for another, and arguably computers (but I am there going out of my depth). "Consciousness" is the thing that sets it apart, which may have been what you were getting at, but that is too nebulous of a concept and so badly-understood, that you'd need to put an arbitrary line somewhere, and it can only be definitely put at humans.
And then we also come to the question : why would the same sensation to some other being be more good than to other?
The things is, I care more about my family members than I do any other human. I would have no problem killing an innocent person if it would ensure the survival of someone I love. I obviously value some beings more than others and I care for their happiness more, even though everyone is just as "valueless". I even care and value my pets more than I do most humans. Objectively the same sensation would be no better for one or the other, but personally, it would. I think it is beneficial for humans to value the sensations of other humans more than any other animal, and obviously Nature does too, as she has endowed us with empathy.
But then you can't argue that it's morally reprehensible what we do to any animals at factory farms or even to other humans anyway, if it's just subjective anyway.
I can question the morality of other people's beliefs, but I will not argue from an objective standpoint and talk down to them or think of myself as superior. I know I am no more morally right or wrong than them, but I would still want them to not do something I find egregious, I am only human. Ideally I would find a good reason however, that is not an appeal to their emotions. It is only subjective and I therefore think I should have some humility, but subjectivivity defines all of my experience, so that still means a lot, no?
If you want good arguments against moral error theory, you should look into Derek Parfit's On what matters volumes (for an argument for Moral non-naturalism instead) and for example the work of Allan Gibbard (for an argument for metanormative exspressivism instead).
Your argumentation against pleasure and pain not being good and bad inherently is understandable but lacking. In all of the situations you mention, the pleasure or the pain are inherently good or bad respectively still, but are either also instrumentally good (pain can indeed teach us, but indeed that is only because we do not want it, as it's a bad thing, so we avoid it, it wouldn't act as instrumentally good if animals didn't have this avoidance for it), or are bad because there's some further even worse consequences for some behavior. I agree for example that in the world nowadays, it's probably a bad thing that we get much pleasure from sugar, because indeed it drives many to eat too much of it, but again why does the pleasure do so? Because pleasure in and of itself is something that we want. Some kind of pleasure can indeed be not good for us in the long term, but the sensation was good and wanted all the time.
The difference between plants and animals (at least the overwhelming majority of animals, there's evidence that for example oysters are not) are that animals are sentient which make them able to care about what happens to them. It is the sentient being who wants pleasure and avoids pain. It, for lack of a better term, loves pleasure and hates pain. From this we can in my opinion argue that we should take these beings into account, for ethical behavior is inherently something about which it is indeed something that sort of goes against what is the best thing for you. We can easily look at things from a neutral perspective, and from that perspective it seems odd to say that your opinions would make something worth more.
Also about moral error theory, it's most often taken to also the conclusion of epistemic error theory, ie. that just like there isn't any reason for us to think ethically, there isn't any reason for us to reason coherently, make the right conclusions.. etc. Also from the point of view of moral error theory, most of your last paragraph makes no sense, if you held that theory to be true, there would indeed be no reason for you to not take your morality superior to others : indeed there was no reason for you to believe even in this way you (even though it would be right in that it would be a true belief because morality was illusionary) and indeed it seems that you're arguing that you should not do so and that's an ethical assumption anyway. There would be no point to take others opinions on any matter to account. Also "it's subjective and therefore I should have humility" would equally be a wrong conclusion, because you couldn't conclude to any sort of behavior from an ethical perspective, which this obviously is doing. Also you talk about finding a good reason, which there wasn't be any, good would only be an instrumental thing, there would be no good reasons in and of itself. If you want good and thorough discussion on what exactly is moral error theory and to what all would it lead us to, you should read Jonas Olson's Moral Error Theory : History, Critique and Defence.
And I would indeed take it to be the case (against moral error theory) that indeed they would have a reason not to do the thing, and that reason is that you don't want it to be done. Whether they would take that to be a reason of enough consern would be up to them, but it's not at all odd to speak of us having a reason per se to act in ways that help others for example and not to act in way that causes pain for them. If you want a very good argument for why this is so, I don't have the room here to make it, but you'll find one given Derek Parfit's On what matters volume one.
Regarding pain and pleasure, you may also consider that the pain of other people can good, even if it is not your own pleasure, such as making criminals suffer (although I'm not a proponent of deterrence and retribution, but of rehabilitation and the model we have here in Scandinavia, although freedom bereavement, and the shaming inherent to being bestowed the label of criminal, is in and of itself suffering). Similarily, the pleasure of some people, that are not myself, may be negative, as with several of the sadistic criminals that are made to suffer in prison.
Because pleasure in and of itself is something that we want.
I don't think that this is strictly true, at a basic level it certainly is, but we are more complex than this. I don't want to be happy, I want to be challenged, but challenged in a way in which I have a chance of succeeding. One of the foremost feelings this gives is satisfaction, but not "hapiness" persay, and that is only after having withstanded some pain. I have never been in a darker place in life than when I lived hedonistically. Only by not seeking pleasure and happiness could I become satisfied with continuing existance. I agree though, that pain and pleasure naturally creates a dichotomy of good and bad, although I think it is much more than just pleasure and pain and I don't think I can agree that either pleasure of pain are inherently good or bad, even for most people, although it is easy for them to believe so. Deffered gratification is related to this, which is a vastly undervalued development in my opinion.
The difference between plants and animals (at least the overwhelming majority of animals, there's evidence that for example oysters are not) are that animals are sentient which make them able to care about what happens to them.
I know, but I am of the opinion that there is a scale of sentience, that goes from dead to human (and possibly beyond even that, who knows), and the place you have on this scale determines what kind of treatment I think they deserve. I also don't think the awareness of pain and pleasure is enough, although it certainly plays a large part - the awareness of oneself is another important aspect which many animals lack (although many other primates and dolphins have been found to have this). You therefore need to, as I said before, put an arbitrary line somewhere, as you seemingly do with insects and plants, but the only one I am comfortable with putting as definiteve full "Sentience" with a big "S", is humans. I probably would consider many animals too sentient for farming, or too psychologically hurt by it, but many I won't, and I probably wouldn't see any animal except humans as too sentient to hunt.
Also about moral error theory, it's most often taken to also the conclusion of epistemic error theory, ie. that just like there isn't any reason for us to think ethically, there isn't any reason for us to reason coherently, make the right conclusions.. etc.
True, and I find that assessment likely, although I do not like it, which I do my best to make irrelevant as I subjectively value truth over what I want, which is in and of itself an act towards reasoning coherently...
there would indeed be no reason for you to not take your morality superior to others
True, but I am a fallible creature, full of hypocracy, the best I can do is try and be aware of this inherent hypocracy and limit it (but as you mention, I have no reason to limit it except my own personal want for coherency). Furthermore, there is a reason, although not a rational one, and that is that I am myself, and I value myself more than others, inherently. I cannot change that, and there is no reason I should or shouldn't change that.
"it's subjective and therefore I should have humility" would equally be a wrong conclusion, because you couldn't conclude to any sort of behavior from an ethical perspective, which this obviously is doing.
True, I was wrong in chosing such a strong word, I "believe" that deserves humility, and I would argue for that, but I wouldn't argue for it as some great conclusion and the end of the matter. This leads into what I meant by "good reason", I mean something that is clearly defined by some paramaters, and which has empirical backing. And I am aware that empiricism is not perfect nor objective, but I would argue from a pragmatic stand-point and say that it is the best of the worst, we have no better, so I say make the most of what we have, so I see no reason for why we shouldn't position empircal truth as the highest feasible truth (although I concede that there is no true reason for why we should or shouldn't).
Also, have to say, I'm enjoying this discussion and thank you for the suggested reading, I have to admitt that I am not very well read in the matters of philosphy yet and have never heard of these people before.
I like these sorts of discussions as well always, and I don't mean to sound that you're making stupid points or something like that. I'm a actually social and moral philosophy major student, so I've pondered and written and discussed a lot of these topics a lot on my education.
You make a good point on some pain regarded as good in the case of criminals for example, but usually that either isn't taken as such. It's usually through deontic ethics that that is argued, but usually, for example in Kant who's the founder of that line of thought, it's not actually taken as good. In Kant and most deontological theories, what is good and what is morally demanded can be quite different. For example Kant seemed to thought that indeed it pleasure or happiness that is the good, and pain is bad, but he thought that our actions should not be guided towards the greatest good, but by our practical reason, which just demands certain actions and denies others. Then he thought that someone who for example committed a serious crime would then be deservant of bad happening to him, thus the sanctions. So he would still see the criminals pain as a bad thing.
Also, I didn't mean to argue that pleasure and pain is necessarily even thought of as things that we should even seek, just that other things being equal, pleasure is good and pain is bad. Also pleasure should not be taken simply as bodily pleasures, but can be taken to include those things that you mention. John Stuart Mill wrote a lot of that, that there are intellectual pleasures and bodily pleasures (simplifying it here a lot) and the first are something that simply are of a more value. And going too much for the latter, may actually result in overall bad life.
I would agree with you that sentientism is not a binary thing, but on a scale, but it doesn't matter. What I specifically think is that *if it's the equal sort of sensation * then it is of equal value regardless of for whom it happens. I do think that humans can lead a more gratifying life and also suffer in many ways that no animals can. But according to our contemporary empirical understanding and evidence most animals experience for example pain in a very same way as us humans. And the simple pleasures as well. What I am arguing is that that sort of pain that the animal goes through when simply use them for food is a whole lot bigger than the pleasure we get to our taste buds when we eat them. And even if there's no pain, there's the animal possible of leading a pleasurable or happy life that we deprive them of when we kill them. It's absolutely different if you're in a situation where you for example are starving and the option is to kill an animal, because then we're talking of a whole lot more valuable thing in the action for us.
For the arbitrarity, I don't think the ability to experience pleasure and suffering is arbitrary at all, it seems to pretty accurately depict the point where there indeed is sentience and when there is not.
Hypocrisy again is a word that needs some sort of values behind for it to even really anything, so there's no need to avoid it if you don't consider moral to exist. And I don't think we are necessarily hypocritical, I think through rational reflection we can and do indeed get to a better understanding in ethics for sure. We have abolished the slave trade, we at least have made great headway in the abolishing of for example racism and sexism and I think animal rights are a thing to come.
Also you valuing your life the most isn't necessarily a bad thing at all, and many ethical theories take it to be a good thing. For example many utilitarians argue that because you indeed are most knowledgeable of the things that you want and the ones you love want, you absolutely should think of them first. A simple example would be the decision to feed someone else or feed yourself, if both of you are in at least somewhat similar situation (that for example the other one is not starving and thus in a great way in more need of the food), you should feed yourself, because you know exactly what you want and thus get more out of the same. Each of us buying each other their food for example would just result in most eating something else than they want. (of course this takes a whole new turn if we take the animal ethics in question here as a vegan might think that buying vegan food for an omnivore reduces other suffering in a great way, but this point is made with the assumption that ajy of the food wouldn't cause any suffering or would cause the same suffering to others)
No animal deserves to live or die, and none deserve happiness or suffering, and the same is true for us, who are no less animal than any other animal. However, I am human, therefore I value the continual survival, development and domimation of our specie. Not only to ensure the prosperity of myself and fellow man but also to ensure the prosperity of my offspring. I thus think it is wrong to kill humans (in most circumstances), as it is negative to these goals and my innate empathy helps reinforcing this. For the same reasons I see no problem with killing all other animals that are not human. Unmotivated and needless suffering I dislike though, killing something slow for no reason but sadism is abbhorent (the slow and sadistic part being abbhorent, not the killing) and I think if you kill something it should be for self-preservation or prosperity, depending upon the thing you kill. A plant or insect needs no motivation, but should be avoided if it proves negative to human prosperity (see bees). That leads me to my view, I am for vegetarianism as a move to lessen the environmental impact of animal husbandry, but I see no grounds for its ethical superiority. The health benefits or the simple pleasure of a meat diet is certainly enough justification to hunt and even farm (which is unideal for many animals but depends a lot upon the farm conditions, have heard Amierca is pretty badly regulated in that regard, although to be fair to farminf, farming protects and ensures the survival of many animals, it is just as much a service for them as it is for us), I see nothing wrong with that, but it is wholly subjective just like your position.
Also, the taste is very important, I'd gladly kill for that, and I have done so. Cooking is an artform and the enjoymemt of preparing and eating food is one of the things which make life worth suffering, imo.
What if I told you that a plant based diet would actually be better for us as a species ?
Yeah, that is a reason for why I would be in favour of some variant of vegetarianism. I'm against vegetarianism as being proposed as "morally superior", and I dislike people who pat themselves on the back for merely having a different diet, as if they did some great thing. If someone really "cared" about the enviroment, he/she should kill themselves, that would "help" the enviroment and humanity a lot more and actually require some strength and conviction, haha. I'm against that kind of stuff and many of the stupid beliefs these kinds of people often have, such as it being healthier or as healthy or not enviromentally bad. Then you have veganism, which seems just retarded as it is so extreme and ideologically based, but I hope there is some rational and pragmatic forms of veganism that has allowance for compromise.
How would you argue that a lifestyle where you pay for animals to be killed to be less morally conscious than one where you do? It doesn't mean vegans are good people but not killing animals is objectively more moral than killing animals.
You seem to think it's all or nothing, is it not worth removing the leading cause of deforestation?
Not killing animals is not objectively more moral than killing animals. How would you argue that it is? Give me one reason not based on subjective feelings of empathy. For you, subjectively, it may be less moral and self-evident, but that does not make it objectively true or evident. Not killing animals is no more, and no less moral than killing animals. Thus the evidence, or lack thereof, suggest, for that is the neutral position. The burdon of proof lies with you, who proposes something.
I don't think it is all or nothing, although I remain cynical at the outcome. I also see nothing morally wrong with killing animals (except if it is sadistally done), it can be very good (e.g. population control, self-defence, food etc), although also very bad (e.g. sadism, boundless greed etc). I think hunting is the most moral method (depending upon the animal) and I dislike and abhor many of the factory farming situations I've heard of in America (thankfully I do not live in the US and buy locally produced meat). But I see nothing wrong with farming in principle. It may even be great for the animals (depending upon the animal and farm), as they get food, shelter, protection, and breeding oppertunity, (and potentially even affection from the owner, from my experience at small farms), at the payment of later being food. A very good deal from an evolutionary standpoint, not much more you could ask for. Dying is also not very negative in that situation, so an easy cost to bear, for if you have already breeded and your offspring is guaranteed protection, there is not much more reason to live.
Also, the leading cause for deforestation is man, not the animals he keeps. If I wanted to deal with the leading cause I would deal with the human population numbers. That would not have many pretty solutions. Agriculture farms also takes up massive amounts of land (and we artificially allow some plants to survive and not others, just as with animals, and it allows for the existance of less sentient life than otherwise), and in the end the earth has limited resources that we use a vast amount of, no matter whether we farm animals or plants.
If you take that reasoning then you can't argue that anything is moral, so killing a human is just as moral as not killing a human? It's an argument that works as morals are created by humans - but they're real in our society and incredibly important; otherwise we would be in anarchy. So do you agree with that sentiment or do you have any other way to justify killing animals?
It takes 10 times the land that the animals live on to grow their food - land we could instead use to grow food for ourselves. You'd reduce deforestation by 10 times by not eating animal products - can you justify that this is worth it because of the taste alone?
Not that anything is moral, but that everything is equally as moral, ergo neither moral nor immoral, objectively. There is no right and wrong, except with well defined, albeit still subjectively chosen, paramaters. Furthermore, subjectively you can have all kinds of morals, although humans in general have some that are near universal (but to different degrees) as they are so useful and tied to our biology and empathy, such as unjustified murder. Ideally the generalities, the commonly held morals, are made into laws, as they have proved to useful in our survival and adaptation (which is the only true reason why we live and only true meaning we have). Also, subjective does not mean less "real", as you seem to make it out to be, only less true. Also, they are not important, they are important to you and me. Importance does not exist either, as far as we know, outside our own subjective creation of it.
So do you agree with that sentiment or do you have any other way to justify killing animals?
With what sentiment exactly? You have not changed my mind in any way, nor provided any reasons for the existence of anything objectively moral.
It takes 10 times the land that the animals live on to grow their food - land we could instead use to grow food for ourselves. You'd reduce deforestation by 10 times by not eating animal products - can you justify that this is worth it because of the taste alone?
That would not necessarily decrease the deforestation, but it would allow supporting even more humans fed by a plant based diet. Were I live and get my meat from, deforestation is not an issue (not in the sense of feeling the effects but of origin), as most of the country is uninhabited and unfarmed forest in a large country with a small, mostly rural, population, so I see little issue in continuing meat consumption, living where I do, for that reason (there are, as you probably know, other negative environmental effects of meat farming), me purchasing imported fruits and vegetables may even have a worse effect. I also think that the health benefits and tastiness of meat, and animal ralated products are worth it for my consumption, yes, as is the usefulness, comfiness and esthetics of leather etc. At least for know. I see little to warrant continued existance in general, but enjoyment of small things is one of them, and preparing meals of great varieties and cuisines, but ideally with some meat or fish, is a wonderful experience, as close to spiritual as I get, as is of course the later eating of it. My consumption would also have little effect unless world wide regulation and enforcement occured. I see no moral benefit in not eating meat (except in avoiding cruel factory farming some countries allow), but I do see pragmatic ones if there is wide spread agreement.
What I think is the best we can hope for is having our population numbers and way of life tempered in a way in which does not set us back a 100 years and allows us to continue to thrive and dominate as a specie in smaller, more manageble numbers, and which allows us to continue doing all the great but enviromentally harmful things, one small thing of which is the eating of meat.
I think you're making an unethical choice, not necessarily living an unethical life.
This is a great way to put it, thanks.
Thank you this is all I was trying to say
Yeah. I think it’s unfair to call say that there are good people and bad people. There’s just people, but they can make decisions that are morally good or bad.
Considering the fact that 99% of animals (and this is a real statistic) live and die in factories and experience horrible life conditions, yeah, if you are consuming animal products you are contributing to unethical industries.
https://www.aspca.org/animal-cruelty/farm-animal-welfare
What if I don't get my meat from factory farms? The last time I had meat was at my friend's parent's farm.
It is less unethical, but still not ethical.
Yeah, if your friend’s parent’s farm doesn’t factory farm animals it is probably more ethical and closer to “natural”. At the end of the day everyone gets to draw their own lines for what they do. I don’t think there is close to as much wrong with small scale family farming because it tends to create better conditions for animals.
I would say that it is still not ethical. Regardless of where the animal was raised, they all die in the end - for no other reason than we like the taste of them. Not a good enough reason and certainly not ethical.
Can't it be argued in this case though that if this animal is to die, it should at least be harvested and used and what's left be given to nature? Because in nature that animal probably wasn't going to live to retirement anyways, as things go. Factory farming is a nightmare, definitely, but I think people are ignoring the very very common reality of small farms selling their livestock locally and raising their animals grass-fed on pasture land and such. Maybe its because I grew up rural and we had ready access to farms, hunting, fishing, etc than an urbanite would not have. I just feel there is a utilitarian balance that could at least be met to feed meat into a local market while minimizing the wide spread environmental effects the more brutal large scale factory farming creates to feed current demand.
Then again, so much of our own agricultural production also goes into feeding those factory farms. Imagine the wealth of food we could have if animals were just given their own pasture land and people growing crop for feed instead grew for people? I can't think of the number, but I recall once seeing a graphic infomap detailing how much of Canada's cropland went into feeding people vs feeding the animal agriculture industry and I was blown away to see what really looked to be an imbalance with very little of our domestic food production actually going towards feeding people.
I feel in some cases it's just really also unfeasible to ask people to not use meat in their diet, I.e northern Canadian populations that harvest local meat because the other option is flying in atrociously expensive food products cause roads that far north are non existent. A lot of people live in areas where a sustainable harvest has been carrying on for quite some time. As long as those levels aren't over conservation limits there really isn't a reason to disrupt peoples diet sand fly in vegetables and such where they can't even grow.
All the too say I don't think eating meat is unethical, I think it's utilitarian and pragmatic but only if it's done in a sensible local and sustainable way. At most meat should only make up a tiny portion of our diet in favor of veggies, in the ideal situation. I know there's the whole factory farm '99%' statistic but the thing is I've literally been among free range cattle and goats and such and come from a community that can't really grow veggies so much as they can grow hardier grasses. Using locally sourced meats just makes sense. Arguing that we only eat animals for the taste sounds as though by the same logic we should all be slaves to junk food despite the growing rejection of it. We eat food for more than taste, but taste is a cultural and experiential fixture of food on top of its nutritional benefits. We should enjoy food and it's not wrong too, and it's not impossible to engage with a local market and control a flow of meat onto the market that both respects the animal and provides for the human.
I guess I also have a problem with the whole 'would you eat am animal if you knew it had a horrible death' quote because it seems to assume animals don't already have horrible deaths? Hunting where I'm from for certain game like moose has been shut down for almost a decade now because predator populations are too high for the calving mothers to significantly recover season after season. Being eaten alive vs. Shot and ideally killed quickly by a hunter who wants just that is an awkward ethical question to posit but it's the reality of hunting. Trophy hunters are a scourge and really the majority of hunters use what they've killed which itself is still better than factory farming.
I feel like we are also also ignoring our current issues with monocrop agriculture as well in this discussion but that's kind of not really pertinent to the conversation, and again I think is something that can be addressed by finding out how to get the formula for local sustainability done right, which is something that would be different for every local context.
And not to be the whataboutism guy but at what point does binding to a single dietary binary also fringe into being unethical? If the benefits of ditching meat are less environmental degradation, and no animals killed, should we apply that environmental degradation thing to other aspects? Do we ditch coffee because of how much land we use making it and the journey around the world it takes to get here? The habitat loss? The water usage? Do we infringe on freedom of movement because it's better for people to live somewhere they can grow food than further up north where they can only fly it in to reduce the foot print? Do we encourage deeper urbanisation so all our greem foods are going to more concentrated centers and travel less? I'm just being petty at this point but I just feel like it's contextually unethical only, making it universally unethical just ignores contextual realities that I think are important.
We are omnivores. We eat plants and animals. That's how it be.
But we don't NEED to eat the animals. We eat them because we like the taste. It's not ethical.
I mean in certain cases people do need to eat meat since maybe they can't eat legumes or some shit, or meat is just locally the best option (see that guys above comment lol) I totally agree in general we should cut down on meat, and I really don't eat that much ever, but I don't wanna deny that meat in fact has benefits past taste, because nutritionally, especially if you DON'T have access to other foods as easily, it does suffice
Why does that make it immoral?
The best way I have heard it put is this:
"If you were living on a planet with 7 billion people, had access to unlimited fresh fruits, vegetables, nuts, beans and other healthy foods, and knew animals suffer and die horrible deaths so you could eat them - even though you don't have a necessity to, would you continue to eat them?" -Andrew Kirschner
You didn't answer why it was immoral to eat animals. What makes it worse for us.
What is moral about killing something that doesn't want to die for no other reason than you enjoy the taste? Let me know, thanks.
What's immoral about eating a diet similar to other omnivores?
Because we know better. We shouldn't be comparing ourselves to other omnivores or animals - ducks rape each other, sharks eat their young, cats torture their prey. We shouldn't use other animals as our moral baseline. We have the capacity to do better, so we should.
Why is it better not to kill for food? At what point do we distinguish life to be intelligent enough to not eat? Would you consider a person who's primary source of protein is meat to be immoral if that was the best source available to them? Is it immoral for us to kill animals to feed other animals?
These are arbitrary questions. Of course, there are instances where someone is in a situation where they need to eat meat. No one debates that when it comes down to survival, you will do what you have to do - even if that means killing another creature. That does not make you immoral. The fact of the matter is that 99.9% of the time you are in a situation where you have a CHOICE - you can CHOOSE to eat meat or you can CHOOSE to eat plant-based alternatives. One choice involves cruelty and the killing of an innocent creature and the other choice does not. If you repeatedly and KNOWINGLY make the choice that involves suffering and killing rather than the non-violent alternative, I would say that you have made an immoral decision. As far as what we distinguish to be intelligent enough not to eat, there is evidence that pigs are as smart (if not smarter) than dogs. If we use the "intelligence" aspect as a moral baseline, than there's nothing "wrong" with eating a dog just like there's nothing "wrong" with eating a pig.
Sorry, I shouldn't have used intelligent, perhaps... advanced? Obviously a carrot is fine to eat, but how advanced does a living thing have to be before you can't eat it? In some places mosquitos are eaten. Is that immoral?
You didn't answer my question of whether or not it was moral to kill animals to feed to other animals.
These are all relevant questions. These questions are not even indicative of my stance on this matter. Just having fun with the Socratic method.
I've never considered whether it was moral to kill animals to feed other animals, I've only ever been concerned about the first step - which is getting humans to stop eating animals. I would have to err on the side of caution and say that it is not moral but it may be necessary (zoos, animal shelters, etc). If you're 100% fine eating sentient beings (capable of feeling pain) - and it seems like you are - then I cannot change your mind. Many, many people are able to feel empathy for farm animals and would not be okay with eating them if they knew the devastation and torture that these animals face - just so we can eat them. I aim to reach these people, not people who do not value sentient life. I don't have much to say to someone who wants to argue what the difference is between a carrot, mosquito and a cow. If you cannot see the difference then I cannot help you.
I can see the difference, I just want to know what you think. You're acting like I'm some immoral simpleton. I'm not. I'm asking you questions to get you to think about what you actually believe so that I can understand you better. I literally just told you what I was doing in my last comment: employing the Socratic method.
The meat I've been getting lately has come from farms. Not factory farms. Regular, local farms. The only suffering the animals endure is a few seconds of pain before they die. I've even been to one of the farms myself. Factory farms are inhumane and wreak havoc on the environment.
Let's say there is a sliding scale of morality of moral to immoral. Where would you plot consumption of meat and financially supporting slave labor?
To be honest, I do the best I can do for animals and the environment and I try not not buy from slave labor but in the end it is easy for me to leave meat off my plate. It is not as easy to avoid products from immoral companies like Nestle. I do what I can within reason, and that's all I can do. I am not educated enough about slave labor to make any comparisons to that of the meat industry, so I will not comment on that.
For some people it's easier to cut out products from other unethical sources than it is to stop eating meat (for whatever reason). I just don't understand why vegetarianism or veganism is the hill people and their high horses are willing to die on. I think it's hypocritical to feel morally superior to a farmer that makes her own clothes and eats meat while abstaining from meat but wearing the labor of slaves. Perhaps this is one big whataboutism, but I don't think it's right to judge a person for consuming products from an unethical source while also consuming products from an unethical source. I think it's safe to say we both hate factory farms, destruction of the environment, and slave labor. Perhaps the hour I've just spent watch ContraPoints is taking hold of me, but biggest issue we both face is the exploitative nature of the market.
See my problem with vegans is their constant “I’m better than you attitude” which in reality turns away possible converts to veganism. How do you expect to turn away people from meat by degrading them.
But yeah, we are omnivores, always have been, and no offense to vegans, I think we always will be. There is no escaping our evolutionary upbringing and let’s face it humans were able to evolve partly because of how well we were able to form societies that could hunt animals.
Most vegans understand that everyone must find the way to veganism on their own, so they do not pass judgement to non-vegans like you are saying. The fact of the matter is that veganism is objectively more ethical than consuming animal products. Most people who make these criticisms of veganism tend be those who consume animal products and are in denial of their objectively less ethical life choices.
I guess it depends on how you define ethics.if you think making choices that harm the environment and cause other living beings to suffer is unethical, then yes.
Yeah, I would definitely think contributing the the mass reproduction and slaughter of multiple species is unethical...
Yeah but does me recycling everything counterbalance the unethical part of eating meat?
No, nothing makes eating meat okay. Recycling is good though("recycling" plastic isn't a thing, it can only be used to produce weaker plastic until it becomes so weak it's unusable)
Why? People invented “rights” and “ethics”; we have no obligation to apply them to any living thing other than our own kind. Even between humans, that application can be considered circumstantial.
I’m not going to say that I enjoy the thought of farming for slaughter, but ethical arguments against it quickly degrade. I’m all for finding alternatives if they can be comparably efficient. But I think it’s sort of misguided (or maybe just unecessary?) to alter practices and decrease efficiency in order to appease the assignable feelings of cows, for example.
To me it seems the only viable ethical argument is that the byproducts of these practices are a threat to our health, environment, and future. Which I believe probably hold some value but don’t necessarily exclude the concept, just our current iteration of it.
You should stop thinking about 'efficiency' and start thinking about just being nice for the sake of being nice.
>feel like we should be nicer
>cows, pigs, and chickens seem to be having a rough go of it
>give all ~85million cows, ~55million pigs, and god knows how many chicken that are currently factory farmed enough land to freely roam and do animal stuff
>need to acquire tons of land for this but willing to pay for it because its nice
>need to use way more water but I do it because it's nice
>cows are all eating grass n shit and on a farting rampage compared being grain-fed but they look really happy
>need a bunch more workers to survey livestock and transport for milking/slaughter eventually, so more jobs
>nice
>Uh oh, Mcdonalds is on the phone, Wendy's is on line 2
>yo why tf are burgers so goddamn expensive now wtf
>they can't keep any margins without raising prices
>restaurant business was already on rocks but is now in an absolute freefall
>most places fire everybody, close up shop
>everyone is okay with getting fired though because they know they're being nice
>farming equipment industries going out of business too
>millions out of work
>but there's a few thousand who get to be ranchers now and the chickens are clucking with delight
>haha very nice
>go to last mcdonalds
>bite into $11 quarter pounder
>tastes nice
Yes, long term we adapt our diets and people move into other sectors for work and whatnot. But short term, you're sacrificing a lot in the name of being "nice" to animals. Economies function more or less as a zero-sum game. China trades human rights for crazy low prices and high productivity. We trade "animal rights" for a shit ton of affordable meat.
I focus on efficiency because I understand that if you decrease it, somewhere else we're footing the bill. That means people; I cannot justify causing unnecessary suffering in humans for the sake of the feelings of animals without resorting to an anti-humanist philosophy.
Obviously, the zero-sum mold is broken through innovation and improvement- which is why I said, "if we can find a comparably efficient method".
The only thing "obligating" anyone other than decency is the barrel of a gun and social pressure. I find the argument against meat quite viable as we should save the animals "for the sake of being nice" as u/Zarorg said #SpreadTheLove
No. Eating meat with out considering the source is unethical. Learning where your food comes from, and choosing to consume a type of meat based on the method of production is ethical from a subjective point of view. Which is realistically the only type of ethics you can concern yourself with.
Some insane people will find everything a person does to be unethical.
By breathing you're exhaling carbon dioxide. Do the ethical thing and stop breathing. /s. This is just agreeing with your point that almost anything can be unethical to someone.
Yeah, but it's very possible and even easy to avoid consuming some of these things.
And it's very possible that your subjective view of ethics is not more relevant than someone else's.
That is very possible. That said, we ought to give more weight to views that are based on good reasoning, and less weight to those based on flawed reasoning.
Fair point. I'm 100% on board with better treatment of all livestock and limiting animal consumption to avoid this issues associated with over farming. It leads to higher quality food products and better lives for the beings we decide to consume. Case in point Waygu Cows.
True
I think there would be a lot more success if the narrative changed from "stop eating meat/ animal products" to "you should try and reduce the amount you of meat/animal products you consume". If you push a vegan lifestyle, you come across as preachy, if you mention that cutting back on meat intake can have health benefits and is better for the environment it comes across as more reasonable. Almost every time I see people pushing for a vegan lifestyle they come at it from a "Animal suffering is wrong" angle. The people who aren't vegans probably don't care, so stop pushing that angle. You know what almost everyone cares about? not fucking dying. Teach people to reduce their intake, not stop it all together.
I think an approach which ecourages both is the most effective.
I would disagree honestly, I don't think it would be an effective way to go about it. If you try and push someone too far, they are going to leave your movement all together and dismiss it. You can see it happen on both sides quite often. Most of the time if you come at it with a "stop eating meat, right now" you will be met with a "fuck that, I like meat.", which is a pretty fair response. Pushing too much too fast helped got us to the point where so many people just hate vegans because they assume they are all preachy asshats. Stopping the consumption of animals and animal products is a HUGE leap for most people, if you start in by telling them that is where they should be, it is going to be a hard pass for most people. If instead you go about it by saying something like "if you cut meat out of your diet 1 day a week, X will happen" where X is a realist thing that happens, you will find way more people will to cut down.
Eating animal products has been show to cause inflammation, stroke, diabetes, kidney disease, liver disease, lung disease, alzheimer's and most autoimmune diseases. To name a few.
Did you know 100% of people who drink water, die? Ban water!
But seriously you can't blame the meat. You could gather similar findings for plant based foods very easily - the human body isn't designed to live forever.
EDIT: Getting downvotes for saying diseases aren't caused by a single factor, ouch :(
You might actually want to read and learn about this stuff before you start making assertions about planet based foods. You can’t just go by intuition that “oh I’m sure plant based foods are bad too!” That’s why we have science.
What I'm saying is that correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation. YES those who ingest more read meat may have higher cases of certain diseases, but it may not be down to the consumption of red meat. We co-evolved with meat, and have eaten it throughout human history.
You obviously haven’t read the studies. This shit is veganism 101. Do you not think that we don’t know this? Don’t you think that these things you bring up are some of the VERY FIRST THINGS we address if you would bother yourself to actually talk with literally anyone who knows anything about this stuff? Do you actually think that any scientist worth anything would produce a paper that just looked at correlation? That’s why we have control variables. Go read up buddy. Then you can feel more confident about posting about things you don’t understand.
I’m sorry to come off so strong. But it’s genuinely amazing to me that someone in the 21st century that I assume is at least somewhat educated would make a comment so void of any proper thought. We know our stuff. We think about these things.
Dude, one of the biggest problems IN scientific publishing is people looking for the correlation and reporting only that, jumping to conclusions, shoddy peer review, company funding... all of these skew the perspective that the results are looked at. You can't tell me the food industry - arguably one of the most important in the world - is never influenced?
Everything you said is exactly right. That’s exactly why you shouldn’t listen to those who have meat, egg, and dairy industry funding.
And also, I’m not arguing that every study ever made by someone who agrees that plant based diets are healthier than non plant based diets are right. I’m just saying that amidst the bullshit, there are many studies that are not bullshit. And most of them not fueled by meat and dairy money agree that plant based is healthier.
I completely agree. You can't just say that meat is the cause and should be crucified though, it may be something in the meat, something we don't know even fucking exists, or something that's in wayyyyy too high levels in commercially farmed animals, who knows but this RED MEAT IS BAD YOU'RE GONNA DIE rhetoric is really starting to give me a headache, we need to look deeper at the underlying mechanism.
If it’s something in the meat that is making use die, then not eating meat will make us not die. If we can figure out how to not die while still eating meat, ok. But as of now, something in the meat leads to death. So, we should stop eating it.
Meat, especially red mean, is very high in cholesterol. Plants have virtually none. It's a pretty simple. I recommend the documentary Forks Over Knives. It's on netflix.
Ingested cholesterol has little to no correlation to serum cholesterol.
EDIT: I might be wrong lmao
Source? So eating McDonald's has no affect on cholesterol levels? Cholesterol decrease significantly in people who switch from omnivorous diets to plant-based ones.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22037012/
Maria Fernandez has received nearly a half million dollars from the egg industry and writes papers like “Rethinking dietary cholesterol.” She admits that eggs can raise LDL cholesterol, bad cholesterol, but argues that HDL, so-called “good cholesterol,” also rises, thereby maintaining the ratio of bad to good. To support this assertion, she cites one study that she performed with Egg Board money that involved 42 people.
Didn't you just say in this comment tree, that the biggest problems in this field are "jumping to conclusions, shoddy peer review, company funding"? What's it like being a giant walking contradiction?
How about a meta-analysis of 361,923 subjects that found "dietary cholesterol was not statistically significantly associated with any coronary artery disease"? That better?
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/102/2/276/4564504
Nope! Still funded by the egg industry.
Supported by USDA agreement 1950-51000-073 and the American Egg Board, Egg Nutrition Center.
No offense but are you randomly searching for studies that suit your bias? Earlier you said "Ingested cholesterol has little to no correlation to serum cholesterol."
Here's what your study says:
Dietary cholesterol statistically significantly increased both serum total cholesterol (17 trials; net change: 11.2 mg/dL; 95% CI: 6.4, 15.9) and low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol (14 trials; net change: 6.7 mg/dL; 95% CI: 1.7, 11.7 mg/dL). Increases in LDL cholesterol were no longer statistically significant when intervention doses exceeded 900 mg/d. Dietary cholesterol also statistically significantly increased serum high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (13 trials; net change: 3.2 mg/dL; 95% CI: 0.9, 9.7 mg/dL) and the LDL to high-density lipoprotein ratio (5 trials; net change: 0.2; 95% CI: 0.0, 0.3).
Again, what's it like being a walking contradiction?
Admittedly, I probably made a large sweeping statement, I didn't think the conversation would get this far haha. However, do you know how cholesterol metabolism works? The LDL/HDL ratio isn't mumbo jumbo, CHD is the critical outcome of chronic high serum cholesterol, and no association of dietary cholesterol and CHD would imply that over extended periods of time serum cholesterol won't change due to dietary cholesterol. It's people like you who think our bodies are fragile and have to be perfectly tailored, we're hunting, running, sweating, energy creating machines with millions of cellular interactions happening every second. Equilibrium in your body exists so something doesn't spike once and you're dead, maybe give evolution some credit regarding the development of cholesterol homeostasis.
“The lines of evidence coming from current epidemiological studies and from clinical interventions utilizing different types of cholesterol challenges support the notion that the recommendations limiting dietary cholesterol should be reconsidered.”
So... you cited a source that disagrees with you?
“The lines of evidence coming from current epidemiological studies and from clinical interventions utilizing different types of cholesterol challenges support the notion that the recommendations limiting dietary cholesterol should be reconsidered.”
So... you cited a source that disagrees with you?
No? They're saying from current evidence, the notion of dietary cholesterol limitations should be reconsidered.
Oh I read that as considered. Well ok. That is definitely a paper. And it could be correct. I will agree with whatever the facts are.
It's an article that's funded by the egg industry.
Thanks. I stand correct.
I've been eating a carnivore diet for over two years, my cholesterol is 147. ;)
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-saturated-fat-studies-set-up-to-fail/
well researched video on the subject on why this statement isn't correct. all papers linked, check them out.
As I said before I probably made a bit of a sweeping statement, but if you're going to say it's all a conspiracy by "Big Butter", how are we going to get to a resolution? If we're comfortable in recognizing that people have different baseline cholesterol levels, why are we not comfortable in recognizing that we may process the cholesterol differently, frankly, unless you're obese as fuck with a shitty diet, cholesterol/fat is probably the least of your concerns.
It wasn't just a sweeping statement, it was incorrect.
It's not a conspiracy, this is a well documented occurrence (as shown in the video). The exact same thing happened with 'Big Smoking', and it's common knowledge in science that you really need to check who funds the studies because this can lead to misrepresented/false results. A more commonly known example would be 'Big Sugar', where coca cola funded studies to say sugar is [just fine etc] (https://www.ucsusa.org/disguising-corporate-influence-science-about-sugar-and-health#.Wr4t92aB3OQ).
The resolution is by looking at the studies that are not funded/tied to these big industries, that don't have vested interests in their outcomes.
I'm sure, in the cases of unbiased studies, scientists have addressed this concern, as they want to look for the factual truth rather than get an extra paycheque. They start out with looking at the facts, and see yes humans are more similar than different (genetics dictating what cholesterol you start with may be different, but the biological processes are the same). If what you're suggesting is true, this would have been discovered already. Instead, we can do population based studies and find that, for example, yes on a large scale, [higher cholesterol causes heart disease] (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-do-we-know-that-cholesterol-causes-heart-disease/) in all people.
You can be terribly unhealthy and not be obese, so no cholesterol doesn't just matter for obese people.
I really suggest looking into nutritionfacts.org. Very well researched not-for-profit, no vested interest (no such thing as Big Vegetable), the guy is a doctor and an expert in preventative medicine.
So why isn't their a thing such as "Big Vegetable"? I'm not trying to antagonize, but if you can so readily say Big Smoke, Butter, Sugar etc... exist, is it far from logic to assume some people somewhere have a vested interest in promoting vegetable consumption?
Sure, no antagonising here either. Im readily saying it because it is so well documented to exist - seriously, just have a quick google about industries funding studies - the video I linked also refers to these reports and studies as well.
As for 'Big Vegetable': thing is, everyone already knows that vegetables by and large are healthy and a necessary part of your diet, and this is conclusively supported by unbiased science. This is indisputable, so there will always be a demand for them - there is no need for a 'big vegetable' having to resort to fabricating/funding misleading studies to confuse the public into thinking that veggies are good for you to increase demand.
However, we do know that, for example, animal products have serious ramifications resulting in things like heart disease, cancer, environmental destruction. These studies, and the fact that you can get all your nutrients from a plant-based diets, are a direct hit to the demand of animal products, and so Big Dairy/Meat/Eggs know that in order to keep the money flowing in their direction, they have to resort to misleading the public.
Its the facts supporting eating plant-based products that result in a general consensus that vegetables are good, demand for vegetables is always dependable, no need for a 'Big Vegetable' to mislead the public into buying them.
It's the unbiased facts against eating animal products that necessitate 'Big Animal Products' to mislead the public into ignoring the real science that would endanger their business.
What are your thoughts on companies like (or used to be companies) Juicero? Or cold pressed juices in general? Surely they have an interest in pushing and promoting the healthiness of plants (and by virtue the unhealthiness of other foods) to increase sales?
Sure, but the point is everyone already knows plants are healthy, and this is proven in the scientific literature. They don't need to fabricate the studies because the ones already there are in support of their cause (that being plants are healthy). All they need to do is advertise and play on plant foods being healthy in their commercials to appeal to the public.
Big Animal Products need to have a body of scientific literature that supports them, so they need to fund misleading studies that contaminate the pool of unbiased studies that are against them. This creates doubt in the public, so the public ends up choosing what they want to be true, which is continuing being comfortable and feeding such a destructive industry.
But is it that plants are innately healthy, or other foods have extra shit that makes it unhealthy? Surely a meat with equivalent fat per serving (in relaiton to a plant), is healthy?
Yes I understand the health benefits of vegetables, but let's take the example of vitamin C in fruits. Oranges are pushed as a great source of vitamin C when other fruits eclipse the vitamin C content of oranges. Big Fruit? What about spinach as a great source of protein, when in comparison to other plants it's relatively low? Science is skewed and manufactured to push all kinds of foods, meat, dairy and vegetable alike.
I would have to strongly disagree with your last statement that all science is skewed to push all kinds of foods. This is the kind of attitude of 'throwing your hands up in the air and saying you give up on trying to know the truth of nutritional science and I'm just going to continue my bad habits' - and this is exactly the product of Big Animal Products investment in misleading studies: confusion. Addressing why I fully disagree: I am certain that the majority of medical researchers did not join their career to do work that was in the pursuit of getting an extra buck at the cost of the credibility of their work and the truth. This assumption is entirely incorrect. All science has an agenda? No, absolutely not.
For your first question, go investigate nutritionfacts.org for more studies - I'd likely just be posting many of the papers that he talks about. But I'd like to add as an example, animal protein has different chemical structure to plant protein - speaking as a layman, it follows that it would be react differently within the body. So it's not just about vitamin/mineral content.
For your second point about different fruits and their nutritional contents, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. There is not any one fruit or vegetable that has the highest nutritional content for everything, that's why nutritionists encourage a diverse and balanced of these things. Additionally, these nutritional contents are just measurements, it's much harder to create misleading data on a 1-Dimensional figure like that - especially one so fundamental in nutrition. I don't see how Big Fruit would come into that.
Firstly, I mean that most (if not all) science can be skewed to fit multiple perspectives.
Yes I understand animal protein is different to plant protein... that should reinforce the idea that maybe plant based diets aren't the best?
I feel as though you can't see the hypocrisy in your own words, you say that nutrition is complicated and that fruit hasn't got a one size fits all, so why do you insist on pushing the idea that a single diet can fit us all? Why can't some people eat 5+ eggs a day and be healthy? It's been done many times.
Your first point is an exaggeration. Of course it happens, but not so much that we can't take any papers seriously. We have peer review, population studies, literature reviews, a conflicts of study section within papers, rankings of journals, reputations of scientists. A reputable journal will send your work back to rewrite it if it's obviously misleading. There can be harsh reputation and career consequences. Look up the process. The important thing is to look at all these factors to determine what is factual with all the evidence at hand and be as unbiased as possible. This is why you don't see reviews of 'excessive sugar intake is great for you based on hundreds of funded papers' making it to Nature or being advocated by leading researchers.
As for your second point on plant vs animal protein - again spend time on nutritionfacts.org. I don't understand how saying they are different supports plant proteins being worse for you. Just as an example to show that you don't have to look deeply to find out that meat's not great, look at how processed meat and red meat are class 1 and class 2 carcinogens respectively..
It's not a single diet - in veganism you can be high carb low fat, low fat high carb, you can eat 10 oranges a day, you can eat nothing but doritos - whatever. I'm arguing that animal products, based on the large amount of unbiased research, is not healthy for humans.
My layman's view: Look at cows, they have an optimal diet: grass. However, they do have the ability to eat chickens. Is that good for them? No. Is it good for some cows and bad for others? No. And this is the same for just about every other species on the planet, so why would humans be different? Look at humans. As a more shocking example, people have records for eating an entire plane, for eating tree bark, for eating glass. We can do it, but is it good for us? No. We have the ability to eat meat, is it good for us? Unbiased research will say no. If you argue against that, a good place to start some research again: nutritionfacts.org, a lot of the questions your raising (ex. the eggs one) you can solve with a google or has already been answered on that website. Also I said that a single orange (for example) cannot have 100% of a daily nutritional requirements. Don't misframe an argument.
So we just ignore the fact our ancestors have eaten meat, or at least predated, for an incredibly long time? Why now is it that our optimal diet is shifting, or has it always been plant based? You're saying humans are straight up herbivores because I feel like evolution would disagree.
And as for NutritionFacts, Dr. Michael Greger has been accused of cherry picking, and seems to be rather content with pushing his books and DVDs...
Yikes your first point. It shows a person is more about convincing the other person rather than learning when they do not concede in any wrongs on their part, and instead they try to miss frame someone's argument to make it easier to attack (fallacy).
Former populations ate to survive and reproduce, nothing about an optimal diet there, there's not a shift. Look at the the longest living and healthiest populations on the planet: okinawans and adventist vegetarians. Compare them to the inuits in the arctic, who live shorter life spans and have cases of atherosclerosis among their populations (google it).
Always good to be skeptical, which is what I've been saying throughout this, but the cherrypicking comment.. Is ignoring funded studies and looking at the unbiased research cherry picking, or just trying to be accurate? And yep, any public figure will publish books and DVD's, but their validity is only questioned if the papers they are referencing are flawed, or if the author themself is unqualified - for which Dr Greger has well researched references and certainly the qualifications to back them up. Additionally, books and whatever are a great way of reaching the public, and as a doctor invested in preventative medicine, it certainly makes sense that he wants to reach as many people as possible. The large body of his work is free and easily available to the public online. How dare he charge a dime for his books for his immense amount of work right?
From this comment chain it shows you are not open to an argument that questions your own comfortable daily choices, despite the huge amount of research available - maybe you want to question why this is. People don't like hearing bad things about their bad habits. I was totally against veganism until I investigated myself, I realised I was completely playing into my meat-eating bias and choosing to ignore all the correct research. It's important to look at your own bias.
I wonder how you physically picture me haha. I'm readily accepting of new ideas, doesn't mean I can't be critical of them. Diet is a topic close to my heart (literally and metaphorically) as I struggled with it for a while before losing weight and getting fit, I may be compeltely wrong, and as much as I may be closing my mind to certain ideas, the way in which you convey yours is questionable. For some people, longevity may not be always the desired goal (not to sound nihilistic) and yeah sure there's an optimal diet for longevity, which may be derived from a plant based diet, however for others, with other goals, meat may be a risk worth taking. Can I get an honest opinion from you? I've enjoyed this debate random stranger. Do you think there is any room for meat, at all, under any circumstances, in any diet? Or do you think any goal can be achieved through a plant based diet?
Thanks for the polite response, it's refreshing on reddit lol. Oh I haven't pictured you as some goblin if that's what you're thinking haha. I mean it's similar to how I was before I looked through the research - I ate meat like two times a day and didn't want to give it up. Diet is close to my heart as well as I have an auto-immune disorder, and the only relief I got was by going plant-based. I would just assess the critique and start from new, as in really assess what credible research is there to substantiate animal products being healthy? And if I understand that point about the longevity, are you referring to health span? In that respect I'd like to mention that the okinawans (prior to globalisation) are also noted for their low cancer and other disease rates (google). You can also see the rise of prostate cancer and other cancers increase with the introduction of dairy in Japan (nutritionfacts has a video on this I believe). As you mentioned heart, it may also be interesting to you that a whole-foods plant based diet has been proven to reverse heart disease (the only diet to do so) (google, but I think greger has a vid on it too).
On the whole for people in developed countries - I really think people need to be plant-based - from an ethical, environmental, and health point of view. Any circumstances includes the circumstance of those who live in some tiny island where agriculture is not possible and they have to hunt or something. Additionally I can't speak for those in very poverty-stricken countries where people are just trying to survive fullstop. I completely do think that those who are in developed countries (and do not have some odd, rare ailment that means that can't eat plant foods) should go to a whole-foods plant based diet. All our nutrition needs can be met, without the added cancer/heart disease/artherosclerosis/alzheimers etc. It would save lives, improve quality of life, and save the health industry millions. I would compare eating animal products to smoking as it's a health risk, however this health risk comes with an additional victim: the animal that gave its life for a moment of pleasure. Smoking at least doesn't have that direct victim, so in an ideal situation I can't even ethically justify an ideal situation with 'cheat days'.
I'm not really sure what you mean by 'any goal' though, clarify? Perhaps you're referring to being a vegan body-builder? The american olympic champion of weight lighting is vegan, heaps of athletes are going vegan, and you can check out heaps of body-builders on youtube who went vegan. Check out their reviews if you're curious. There's a documentary on vegan athletes coming out this year called 'The Game Changers' if that's your thing.
On a side note, you've been interested enough to maintain this dialogue, maybe you'd care to try out meatless mondays? Or the 30 day vegan challenge? Too long? 22 day challenge is there too. You might like to see the results first-hand.
Fuck man, you're so compelling haha. Logic dictates one thing while my tastes buds crave another. You seem to like to look at things objectively, so inevitably, what about the downsides to a plant based diet? Because there is some and it's undeniable. Yeah I like to see myself as a pseudobodybuilder, and meat is a damn good way to get protein, and there's something innate to me that just doesn't sit right. I get that your digestive system churns up the food you eat, so whether it was plant or animal, when broken down to its constituent parts, it shouldn't matter. However, something about turning animal meat, into human muscle seems like a much more logical, and I guess efficient, path than turning plants into muscle. I'll definitely look in to removing meat, if I get the same result I'm sure I can deny meat now and then at the very least.
I wish I put as much effort into debating strangers as I did my essays lmao.
Lol thanks. Downsides in terms of health, not really any I've found. If you're making sure you're getting all the required nutrients, then you'll avoid deficiencies no problem and health issues shouldn't come up. If you've heard of health problems with it I'd like to hear them, because from my own research a well executed whole-foods plant based diet doesn't have issues. The only downsides are social-wise, but have their positives as well. Less options at restaurants with friends, which may mean you frequent vegan places or cook your own food more which tends to be healthier anyway. It's really not that hard though tbh and I haven't found it to be an issue. It requires some planning in the beginning if you go could turkey, but it's really easy once you get your key meals down.
Oh vitamin B12 isn't available in plant products anymore, as our modern hygienic ways have gotten rid of the bacteria that makes it from our water and soil - so just have some fortified plant milks or cereals, or take a supplement and you'll be fine.
As for the protein thing, nowadays we're eating more than enough protein [vegan or not] (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/do-vegetarians-get-enough-protein/). My brother is a fitness vegan and uses Pea Protein shakes so there's no issue there, you can also get other plant-based protein powders. Nuts and legumes are also full of protein. It's also nice to remember that some of the strongest, heftiest animals on the planet (elephants, rhinos, gorillas, cows, hippos etc) get their protein and build their muscle from eating plants. For anecdotal evidence, check out /r/veganfitness. And, I know I know, another Greger link, but it's a nice starting place- he has heaps of videos on protein (check out doctor's notes below the clip for other things that address your questions). Some anecdotal stuff: look up vegan body building/fitness on /r/vegan and on youtube, there's a huge community for it.
Look into how muscles are made, because it's not quite as simple as that. Protein is a general category of biomolecule, and different proteins will have different reactions as their made up of different amino acids. Ex animal protein causing raise in IGF-1 hormone levels, and this has been connected to cancer.
And lol don't worry, probably isn't the best use of your time doing that.
Oh something that may be interesting for you, I really recommend cronometer, it let's you log food and tells you how much of your daily nutritional requirement you're meeting, and you can see the nutritional info of any food you want (free btw)
Hope this helps :)
all of that can be applied to plant. You're kidding yourself if you think plant based is environmentally secure. We are fucked since this is the world that was birthed to us. Theres too many people and industrialized modern practices will destroy us whether you're eating beef or soy.
But it's still better to consume the plants directly. This way we need a lot less plant for the same amount of calories.
It’s a bandaid. If the issue is sustainability it needs to be applied across all industries. We shouldn’t focus on the absolute worse and say this product isn’t as bad. We should uproot them all
Because I live in a 1st world country and it’s my choice to eat animal products
Personal choice is great as long as your choice doesn't have a victim. Humans can choose to rape and murder other people, doesn't make it okay.
You can choose to minimize the suffering of you actions or choose not to.
Let's not equate rape and murder to eating eating animal products.
They are not equating, saying it's exactly equal, they are using it as an example. Just because you can do X doesn't mean X is ethical.
Comparing is not equating.
Notice how you used the phrase "eating animal products" as a euphemism for "an action that causes immense harm and death to others."
It just seems like choosing to eat meat shouldn't be compared to rape and murder. It's some serious 1 +1 = 3. And if you really think animal lives are as valuable as human lives then we aren't going to see eye to eye on this one.
I'm not sure how it's 1+1=3. I mean, clearly there are some similarities, the most obvious being that they both involve making choices that cause otherwise avoidable harm to others.
if you really think animal lives are as valuable as human lives
No one is suggesting this. Comparing is not equating.
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I think it's pretty clear that they are talking about the rape and killing of nonhuman animals, though, and not equating the rape of a cow with the rape of a human woman.
Oh sorry I mean artificial insemination in the raperack™
Dude, it is rape and murder to produce animal products. Check out the documentary called Earthlings on youtube.
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So just because it's another species it's not called murder? I do called that murder by definition. Male sea otters rape and murder other smaller mammals during mating season. Is that not rape and murder because they do it to a different species?
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Now you're just arguing semantics. Killing and murdering are the same thing. We use that term interchangeably even in our own society, hence the term "serial killer."
You do realize that cows are raped so that they can be milked so you can be constipated and have stinky farts, right?
But you like that, don't you? Just read your username.
Meat is murder and Dairy is Rape. The Smiths tell it like it is.
The amount of self-righteous people in this thread is astounding
You're right, there's loads of people that still believe consuming animals products is ethical. There's plenty of people on here that think its morally superior
And pushing your views on others is your personal choice. I think you’d have more success with providing the information (harm to environment, health risks, cruelty, etc) with large meat consumption and suggesting they work to cut down on that consumption. That could be adding more plant based products to their meat meals to cut the meat portions, swapping some meat based meals for plant based, etc.
You just came off as pushing your view and saying meat is so terrible and so are you for eating it.
Are you going to criticise the people above who told you to stop using plastic of “pushing their view” too?
The difference with plastic is that it is a more widely accepted view and has been for quite a while. I don’t think you would find many people that would argue against the harm of plastic
Once upon a time the majority of people thought it was okay to own slaves, too. Just because someone's view is considered different from the norm doesn't mean it's wrong.
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That's a false equivalency, so I'll give you a better one. Dogs and cats can't write books about their liberation. So does that mean it's okay to mass rape and murder them?
Once again, can't murder a cat or dog.
And why can't they? If they are of equal moral standing, meaning that they should receive equivalent moral treatment, they should be held at the same standard as humans.
Okay. Again, semantics. But I'll amend my statement since you can't see past your own connotation of a single word.
That's a false equivalency, so I'll give you a better one. Dogs and cats can't write books about their liberation. So does that mean it's okay to mass rape and ~~murder~~ kill them?
So widely-held views are immune to the "pushing" criticism?
Not at all. But if it’s a view that I hold then of course I wouldn’t be inclined to think or saying that it is being pushed. Just like you and the other vegan commenters haven’t been inclined to think or say that the original comment was pushing any view or agenda.
Its not pushing any agenda. The question was about ethical choices. Not using plastic, being polite to other people, a plat based diet are all options to make more ethical choices. There's plenty of documentation for each of these if you really want to find out. Everyone here is putting there opinions out. Yet calling out one group just because their opinion is less popular at this point in time doesn't make much sense.
It almost seems like the only reason you even got in this thread was to find the "don't eat meat" comment and get butt hurt about it.
I eat meat, I probably won't ever stop eating meat. At the same time, its a little silly to go into a thread about ethical living and throw a fit because people are suggesting that eating meat and using animal-based products might have some ethical concerns.
Honestly though, they’re just making an argument for why they think it’s ethically wrong to eat meat. That 100% does not mean you’re a terrible person. It’s just an argument/case against a very common thing we do. Something we (vegans or plant based folks) most likely did as well.
No hate. We’re all trying to be the best we can be, and that is not always an easy thing to talk about.
Edit: Also, I started off just minimizing my meat because I didn’t think I could cut it out completely. No shame in that!
Do you not see the irony of what you are saying? You're claiming that someone merely suggesting that you consider consuming less animal products is "pushing" their views on you, while you quite literally push pieces of others down your throats. You're pushing your views on others by paying to have them harmed.
It wasn’t quite “merely suggesting.” It’s my choice to push pieces of whatever I want down my throat. I am also not paying to have anyone harmed and purchasing something doesn’t push my views on anyone.
It wasn’t quite “merely suggesting.”
Clearly it wasn't forcing you to do anything, so I'm not sure why you're interpreting it as such. Short of us creating the technology to reach through the Internet and physically threaten each other, I don't think you can take their comment as any more than a suggestion, reccomendation, or encouragement.
It’s my choice to push pieces of whatever I want down my throat.
That is your choice. It's just a very poor choice that leads to bad consequences for others.
am also not paying to have anyone harmed
You absolutely are. How could you even deny this?
and purchasing something doesn’t push my views on anyone.
If anything it's worse than someone on the Internet simply making a comment, because purchasing something is an action that has real-world consequences.
I know your view on meat would suggest that I am being harmed by consuming it, but that’s my choice. Who else is being harmed by my purchase of meat and how does my purchase of meat push my view on them? Without a specific example, I really have no clue what you’re talking about
I know your view on meat would suggest that I am being harmed by consuming it
No that is not my view. There are some health implications with eating too much animal meat, but it is possible to be healthy and consume it.
Who else is being harmed by my purchase of meat and how does my purchase of meat push my view on them?
Are you serious? Humans are breeding and slaughtering more than 70 billion individuals every year as a result of purchases and consumption of animal eat driving a demand.
And that's only the nonhuman consequences. Animal agriculture is kne of the leading (and most avoidable) contributors to deforestation and human-caused greenhouse gas emissions.
The animal slaughtering and harm debate aside, what if I say I don’t dwell on my consumptions impact on the environment because I have other ways that I reduce my environmental impact?
I think moderation and balance for most things in life is needed. I never have the thought cross my mind that my meat consumption is an issue or causing harm (until today with this discussion). And maybe that’s the wrong approach, but if I have other ways of curbing my environmental impact then I don’t see my meat consumption as a big issue.
what if I say I don’t dwell on my consumptions impact on the environment because I have other ways that I reduce my environmental impact?
That's great of you! But doing one good thing to reduce harm doesn't automatically give you a free pass to do other things that cause harm, especially in cases where it is very easy to choose to do otherwise.
I think moderation and balance for most things in life is needed.
I agree that this is the case for most things, but there are many examples of things where even moderate amounts should be avoided. These are things that today we wouldn't even imagine doing in moderate amounts, but at one point humans didn't necessarily view them in this way. Things like rape and slavery come to mind. Committing a "moderate" amount of rape is not something that we would think should be included in a just life. Likewise, the idea of owning a "moderate" amount of slaves just seems absurd. We treat these issues as binary; engaging in any amount of them is wrong.
I never have the thought cross my mind that my meat consumption is an issue or causing harm (until today with this discussion). And maybe that’s the wrong approach, but if I have other ways of curbing my environmental impact then I don’t see my meat consumption as a big issue.
That's fair, and I appreciate that you've started to think about these things. I think the biggest point here is that not eating animal meat is one of the easiest things you can do to have the most impact on multiple levels. It has the best cost/benefit ratio.
For example, doing something like not using gasoline-powered transportation definitely helps, but if someone was to abstain from using cars, it could have major negative impacts on their life. For many people in the modern developed world, not being able to use cars would make it very hard to obtain or hold-down a job and make it difficult to maintain some social relationships. Simply choosing to eat a bean burrito instead of a beef burrito doesn't have these types of consequences.
It definitely doesn’t give a free pass and in this instance I do agree on the personal impact factor of this type of change being minimal. Much easier to forgo or reduce consumption of a type of food than to sell your car and bike everywhere or buying a Tesla or cutting out plastic completely (I’m still getting a big Gatorade when I’m hungover) or getting solar panels on your house.
I appreciate the discussion and I’ll do some more research. Can’t say that I’ll cut out any meat, but I’ll at least get some more facts and decide.
I appreciate your willingness to consider other points of view here. The world would be a better place with more people like you!
Obviously I would encourage people to stop eating animals entirely, but even starting with something like meatless Mondays, or just choosing the non-animal meat option when it is available helps make a difference.
Thank you for taking the time to engage with me on this topic.
Nope, you are presupposing your conclusion that animals are people, (or at the least people are equivalent to animals) t. That is what we fundamentally reject. Given that rejection assuming our point is true then you are the only one forcing your opinion on to others.
Nope, you are presupposing your conclusion that animals are people, (or at the least people are equivalent to animals)
I am doing nothing of the sort. I don't think nonhuman animals are humans, but I also think they are much more than simply objects or resources that we ought to have no qualms with harming or exploiting.
Nonhuman animals are obviously different than humans in many different ways, ~~bit~~ but not in any way that would justify us torturing or killing them for our entertainment or pleasure.
Given that rejection assuming our point is true then you are the only one forcing your opinion on to others.
Is it even possible to force an opinion on others through Reddit? What does that even mean? You're just using hyperbolic rhetoric.
Nothing they said was really that accusatory, you need to take things less personally. Society needs to reduce animal products to be sustainable. Easy way of doing that is for people to change their diets.
No, their comment was pretty preachy. A good argument in a debate sticks to facts not opinion.
Or opinions backed by good reasoning.
Sure, but the comment still sounded like it was saying "it's wrong, so you don't get a choice". I'm all with eating sustainably, incorporating more plant-based products in lifestyle and stepping away from mass-produced meats, but the judgey vibe really bothers me.
Sure, but the comment still sounded like it was saying "it's wrong, so you don't get a choice".
I don't think it was saying that at all. It was criticizing defending harming others as simply a "personal choice", since by definition, for a choice to be truly personal, it would not negatively affect others in any substantial way. Examples of personal choices would be what color shirt to wear, or what college you attend. The choice to harm others, while it is a choice, cannot be exused on the basis that it is a personal choice.
A personal choice is somewhat immune to criticism, since it is purely subjective and its effects on others are inconsequential. That's why it's so appealing to just call a choice that you don't want criticized a "personal choice."
the judgey vibe really bothers me.
I think you're perceiving something that is not there.
I didn’t take anything personal. I just said that there are better ways to approach getting what they want, which is people to reduce consumption of animal products. I could care less about their diet or their view against meat, it and won’t change my diet or view on meat. I just didn’t agree with how they approached the subject, but as you and the comment below you pointed out, I probably read into it a little too much because their comment really isn’t accusatory.
Yeah I stopped reading pretty early on. The whole high horse thing is really off-putting.
Why not keep reading? You might learn something. Just because you don't like what you are reading doesn't make it untrue.
I already know these things. I know it's better to not eat animals. You lose an audience when you pick the high and mighty approach.
I don't see how its high and mighty ? There's plenty of people on here that seem to be self righteous about consuming animals.
It's less high and mighty and more just objectively more ethical in a thread about ethics...
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I think choosing Apathy means that you are afraid to face the truth
Hi. You are a complete fucking moron and a piece of shit.
Good day. :-)
And it's that attitude that makes me go from curious about veganism to completely against it.
Eh you'll be outnumbered in the next generation or two and will succumb to social pressure when the western world moves to plant based
What happens when lab-grown meat becomes mainstream? How will you project your superiority onto other people?
Taste and expense, and if not taste, then just expense.
Animal agriculture is the leading cause of deforestation, species extinction, ocean dead zones, water pollution, and habitat destruction
There is no way that this is true. Energy & construction of consumer goods and products (not animal based) are definitely going to trump animal agriculture on all of these fronts.
Eating animals is severely fucking up our planet.
http://www.rainforestfoundation.org/agriculture/
https://seaturtles.org/animal-agriculture-is-degrading-our-oceans/
http://m.worldanimalfoundation.org/articles/article/8949042/186425.htm
Oh man I love being shown sources that people don't actually check and just believe. of these 3 only the second even has source links to facts and figures from an article that has source links to facts and figures from actual studies.
The claim that animal agriculture is worse for the environment than the sum of all other human activities is unsubstantiated.
I have no problem with people's diet choices, I've cut back on fatty meats just to try to eat more vegetables and drop a few pounds. I'd rather split a nice well aged, medium rare steak with my wife and have a big side of grilled veggies with it, than just each a whole plate of meat. We are omnivorous and variety is the spice of life right? Vegetarians and vegan's are free to do what they want as well, it's just not for me.
Answer to your first question: Animals aren't people. But to expand your question of how to humanely kill animals, whose version of humanely are you using? In the US and most western countries it's a captive bolt pistol. Kosher guidelines require a practicing Jew certified by a Rabbi, a sharp knife, and cutting the throat of the animal. Halal guidelines are similar to Kosher, but they allow for electrical stunning of animals in some instances. Buddhism has some complicated rules as to when and what meats may be eaten, but there's not butchering process rules. Hindu's have a long complicated history regarding meat eating that goes way over my head, I see talks about castes, sub sections etc.
Answer to 2nd: It tastes good. Leather is durable. often times wool is cheaper than high tech modern material for warm clothing. I reserve my right to change my opinion at any time as other options become more readily available, and economical.
Christ how is this so upvoted, it's so preachy it hurts. Any sources for those frankly absurd claims that meat apparently causes every horrible illness under the sun? I agree factory farms, habitat destruction, pollution, etc isn't good or pretty, but to say "we must stop eating 99% of animal products because anything not vegan is the devil ararwarwrar!" is fucking ridiculous.
Just be careful not to buy into palm oil stuff and rubber tree plantation or shitty soy stuff. Palm oil plantation and land for soy plantations come primarily from tropical rainforests being bulldozed. In NA our meat industry is huge, but isn't quite expanding at the same rate because we already use so much damn land.
And rubber plantations are bad for birds and bats
if you want to cut down on soy then going plant based would still be the best because most of soy is fed to livestock.
And yeah palm oil is a big issue. That shit is in everything!
Right??
Most of those soy plantations are there due to the demand for animal feed caused by consuming animal meat.
A lot of soy is grown in the US. We don't get it from the rain forest. Also the vast majority of it is used to feed livestock.
soy plantations come primarily from tropical rainforests being bulldozed.
->Checks Tofu: Made in Germany
I am fine.
And the list goes on. Plant-based has good "coverage" when it comes to reducing harm, but we still use actual slavery (including low-wage slavery) not only for clothing, but also for harvesting in third-world countries. Check your chocolate, coffee, rice, and beans. Quinoa, which is heavily marketed to vegans, is difficult to find ethical sources for.
All that said, just do your best. If you bought chocolate that contained milk because it was fair trade and the plant-based one wasn't, I don't think there's any use sending the morality police to your door. We can all strive to do better, and push companies to do better so long as we're doing it under capitalism.
Quite a lot of things marketed to vegans tend to lean toward more sustainable and ethical production methods, as it's an ethically based lifestyle. People who care enough about animal welfare to drastically change their lifestyle are very often the same people who care about human welfare and sustainability.
Agreed! That's kind of my point as well, but try to put yourself on a pedestal you know? Cuz nothing is perfect
I think it’s okay to eat ethically sourced animal products. For instance, my dad owns hunting property where he hunts deer for sport and meat. Hunters have to keep the deer population under control because there are few natural predators around now. The deer populations tend to go out of control when not culled. There is no significant agricultural waste (unless you are dumping bags of corn for them) produced by hunting wild game, and it actually helps the ecosystem! So see if you can go hunting or if you have a friend with deer venison in their freezer. We have a ton of it!
Keep in mind that hunting isn't always like that. Where I live, and I assume this is common in many places, hunting isn't about culling the population. There are severe problems from deer overpopulation. But legal hunting, you are limited to a certain amount of doe tags per year (usually 1) and hunting is clearly geared towards allowing hunters to take trophies from adult bucks. All the "responsible hunting" bullshit you hear is about not killing Young bucks so that they can grow up and have big antlers so someone else can kill to make their dick feel big.
In reality hunting should be carefully managed and geared towards killing does and children so that the population goes down drastically like it needs to be. But the state profits off of tags.
Essentially deer are just very free range livestock owned by the state, with the state outsourcing the slaughter to private actors.
Hopefully your area is more environmentally conscious.
Ultimately though humans are a poor substitute for natural predators. Look into how drastically better the environment improved from reintroducing wolves to areas like Yellowstone. That's what we need, we have to learn to live with nature even when we dislike it.
Ugh reminds me of hunters feeding deer during winter in our area, so they can shoot more of them in summer.
We are allowed to shoot one or two per day in Mississippi (doe). Actually the responsible hunting according to my dad is shooting a certain number of doe per year and not pouring corn out. Of course he still likes to “grow” his bucks lol.
There's something weird going on in this thread. You made a perfectly nice comment about ethically sourced animal products and people downvote you. In other words, any answer that doesn't involve plant based or vegetarian/vegan is no good.
Anyway, I completely agree with you. I live in a city and have never been hunting (really want to do it). But I buy meat only certified humane and grass fed. Also pasture raised chickens and eggs.
I recently learned the process of raising veal. As much as I like meat no animal should be treated so cruelly. We should stop eating veal (baby cows).
You might want to look into other meat as well. Pork in particular is pretty devastating.
Pork has really nasty parasites in them too. I saw a guy in the hospital once cause he was having seizures. He had a worm in his brain from improperly prepared pork.
Veal is a byproduct of dairy industry. Stop consuming dairy. Stop consuming animals in general. This is basic ethics.
Yes, when you drink milk, that milk was produced for a baby cow who has been dragged away from it's mother so you can drink its milk and is either:
a) male and being kept in a box to be intentionally malnourished and kept from using its muscles or seeing sunlight so its flesh stays tender and pale (mmm, tasty!)
b) female and being reared just until puberty, when it will be raped and this process will start for the next generation
I thought cows always produced milk. Can you explain this more to me please
Mammals (including humans) lactate only when they bear young. In order to steal their milk, we rape them every year and take their babies at birth, or very shortly afterwards.
Just like a human female only produces milk after giving birth, the same goes for cows. Dairy cows gave birth to a baby and, shortly thereafter, their baby is taken away so their milk can be used for human consumption. The baby is then raised for veal.
I really hate humans sometimes
It frustrates me that people base these ethical decisions on cuteness.
I'm not as militant about my vegetarianism anymore--if meat is worth the environmental impact and cruelty to you, that's your choice. But don't pretend that you're being more ethical because you only eat non-cute meat. All of the animals suffer and are abused.
How is saying we shouldn’t eat veal based on cuteness? My logic behind it is not because it is cute (I think all animals are cute pretty much) but because it is 1.) a baby animal 2.) not allowed it’s natural rights (i.e. not allowed to be with it’s mother, eat solid foods, and isn’t allowed space to move). If we treated all animals like how we do in order to get veal I would not be for meat. However in the cases where the animals are allowed a semblance of a natural life then I personally believe consumption of meat is ok.
...have you read anything about the meat industry beyond how we treat like veal? Adult cows weren't exactly allowed to frolic in the fields as children.
Some are it just depends where you get your meat from
Well sure, if you go to a local farmers market and get expensive beef from someone you really trust. But don't pretend you can go to any grocery store and get humanely raised meat. Even something that says free range is questionable--government guidelines on what constitutes free range or humanely raised are very lax. (For instance, for free range chickens you can't keep them in individual cages, but you can pack them together too close to move, and they don't necessarily have to be outdoors.)
Use nuclear energy. Right now, we don't have the tech to support our electric network only with renewable energies on a regular basis. Most countries that are reducing or completely eliminating their nuclear power are doing so by compensating it with coal or gas.
Reality is, nuclear energy is the safest kind of energy and one of the cleanest. Its decline is more political than technical or enviromental.
Especially since the likelihood of a catastrophic meltdown is vastly overblown. Chernobyl was a result of idiots willfully going against safety protocol during an experiment. Fukushima happened after the plant got hit by one of the strongest earthquakes recorded, and then a follow up tsunami. That's it. Those are the only two reactor meltdowns to have resulted in loss of life. IIRC Three Mile Island didn't kill anyone.
And yes, nuclear waste sticks around a long time. But what's easier to deal with, a few thousand tons of nuclear waste https://www.nei.org/resources/statistics/used-fuel-storage-and-nuclear-waste-fund-payments, or gigatonnes of fossil fuel emissions https://www.co2.earth/global-co2-emissions. Worst case scenario, we can always just launch the waste into the sun. Its hard to do that with carbon dioxide.
Fukushima happened after the plant got hit by one of the strongest earthquakes recorded, and then a follow up tsunami.
The whole disaster could have been mitigated as well, if the people in charge of the plant had listened to scientists and didn't place their backup generators in low lying areas.
https://news.usc.edu/86362/fukushima-disaster-was-preventable-new-study-finds/
And yes, nuclear waste sticks around a long time.
Something something our lord and saviour Thorium and molten salt reactors. They're said to massively reduce the amount of waste that we produce.
Worst case scenario, we can always just launch the waste into the sun.
(That's actually a pretty bad idea for obvious reasons - and also less obvious ones)
Can you explain why launching nuclear waste into the sun is a bad idea? Not being snarky, just curious.
There's a possibility of a launch vehicle failure that could disperse nuclear material in the atmosphere. However, with proper container design and reliable abort systems this risk can be greatly mitigated.
When the Apollo 13 service module re-entered, the RTG survived the fall through the atmosphere without rupturing and is still at the bottom of the ocean.
EDIT: wording
You're basically putting the most dangerous material in the world on top of a bomb which you're launching through the atmosphere (the most dangerous place for the bomb to go off), it really would be a dreadfully foolish thing to do. Not to mention expensive, it's costly to get something into orbit, let alone half way across the solar system. Much better to bury it.
Edit: We already have techniques of dealing with nuclear waste, you can reprocess it into MOX fuel, and burn it again, you can also use fast reactors to burn it. The reason we don't do that is because it is more expensive than using mined Uranium. Unfortunately even a bog-standard nuclear reactor is expensive even without taking waste into account. The UK is commissioning a series of new nuclear plants, supported by all major political parties, and we can't get anyone to build them for less than double the current rate of electricity, guaranteed for 35 years. We were so open to bids we literally accepted a bid from the Chinese government organization that manages their nuclear weapons (the Chinese National Nuclear Corporation, for the Bradwell plant). At the same time we're right in the middle of shutting down our MOX reprocessing plants, because the process is just too expensive.
Not necessarily. Many spacecraft have launched with nuclear material aboard. All of the Apollo missions and several space probes have used RTGs to generate electricity, which use non-negligible quantities of plutonium as a power source. So long as that nuclear material is properly protected in the event of a failure, it's plenty safe. Though things do get sketchy in larger quantities.
which use non-negligible quantities of plutonium as a power source
Come on, absolutely tiny amounts in comparison to the levels of waste produced by a civilian nuclear programme. An RTG has, what, 100 grams of Plutonium in it, maybe up to a few kilos? The UK alone has over a hundred thousand tonnes of Uranium in waste stored at the moment. The comparison is frankly absurd.
I acknowledged that in my precious comment. Scale is an engineering problem. The jump from 0 plutonium to the small amounts of plutonium in an RTG is, from an engineering standpoint, much greater than the jump from an RTG to a school-bus sized container of spent fuel rods. The outcome of a failure is more dangerous, but the probability of a failure would not necessarily be higher than that for a smaller container. In fact, if launching fuel rods into space were ever seriously considered as a means of disposal, you can be sure that the factor of safety will be much higher than that for any launch vehicle we've built thus far.
To expand on my earlier comment, in addition to RTGs, dozens of small fission devices have been used in space by Russia, and there is active research nuclear propulsion happening right now. In the future, there will only be more nuclear material in space.
EDIT: I left out a very key point, and that's that 99%+ of the rockets in existence today aren't intended to carry payloads to orbit, they're designed to carry large quantities of nuclear material (nuclear warheads). Sure, the factor of safety is obviously going to be a bit lower, given the already world-ending scenarios they'd be used in, but it does further demonstrate that flying radioactive payloads is not new or even particularly novel.
Scale is an engineering problem.
There's 8 orders of magnitude between the two. It's in the same sense that going from 10 people to 1 billion people living in Low Earth Orbit is an engineering problem. Why are you even bothering to make this argument.
We launch school-bus sized payloads all the time, Falcon Heavy and soon SLS can do it. That's a hell of a lot of fuel rods. Shield it to prevent rupture in the event of an explosion, with a 6+ factor of safety. Give it a well tested and reliable launch abort system. Launch over the Atlantic (which we already do). If you're really paranoid, wait 30 years for when rockets become more consistent and time tested.
This problem is in no way analogous to putting 1 billion people in orbit. It's a series of relatively simple problems utilizing technology that already exists, in a package no larger or heavier than a space telescope or coms satellite. This is something that could be accomplished right now, even given the limited resources we designate for spaceflight. The problem is more political than technical.
Larger nuclear reactors will have to fly in space to put sizeable payloads around the sun at >1au, solar panels are impractical at that distance. Fuel rods are no different than fissile material in this respect.
TLDR: It's rocket science, not magic.
It's rocket science, not magic.
Apparently, to you it is magic if you think the prospect of launching more than 1 million tonnes of material into the sun is anywhere close to being realistic.
I actually question whether a containment vessel which could withstand the possible stresses from an explosion and falling to ground with a safety factor of 6 is possible. Aerospace vehicles engineered to that standard tend not to be able to take off. If it was possible you'd likely be sending 10 or 100 times more material into space for the containment vessel than the waste it contained. But what's another few orders of magnitude between friends.
Obviously I'm not implying it all be launched at once. It would be stored in a safe location and lifted to orbit ~50 at a time. That's still a lot of fuel. If you're following the commercial space industry, you'd know that launch cadences are rapidly increasing.
Secondly, "into the sun" is an unnecessary waste of energy. There are plenty of other safe places in space that could be used for disposal. Deornitting a helicentric orbit requires a massive change in velocity.
If the rocket carrying the rocket fuel explodes, the radioactive waste will get spread absolutely everywhere.
Rocket launches are costly and require a lot of fuel just to get off this planet. Also radioactive materials are heavy.
Less obvious:
(You could also be lazy, accelerating the garbage until it reaches earth's escape velocity and let it go wherever it wants. The garbage would wander around the solar system forever-ish, but because the universe is a lot of empty space the chances of garbage hitting anything (let alone anything that's alive) are pretty slim)
If we're trying to reduce our pollution here on Earth, we probably shouldn't pollute the solar system and galaxy either.
I don't think you are fully grasping just how big and empty space is. If you accelerate something out of Earth's gravity well, then the chances of it accidentally encountering another significant object (ie. not dust) in the next million years or so are basically zero.
With our luck, a big manned mission to a far-off planet will find this barrel of nuclear waste in its path. BOOM!
Burying is obviously the better solution, but who said you have to hit the sun? Off the earth is more than good enough.
One could also try hitting Venus. Easier (in dV) than hitting the Sun, and it's not like there was a biosphere to irradiate...
Here's what I came up with.
-Putting a bunch of nuclear waste in a rocket and hoping the rocket doesn't malfunction at any point until it reaches escape velocity is as dangerous as it sounds. Once it gets into orbit it's safer, but if communication stops working or something breaks then you have to send a rendezvous mission to either fix it or push it out of orbit before its orbit decays and comes back to Earth.
-Getting to the Sun is really hard. You either have to change velocity by 30 kilometers/second, or use 7 gravity assists from Venus over 7 years to get there.
-This says there would be 40g/year/person of nuclear waste if only using nuclear power. That is 20,000 launches of the Delta IV Heavy per year (used to launch the Parker Solar Probe) which has a payload of 14000 kg to GTO (not even to the Sun). That's more rockets than have ever been launched in history. To get started we'd probably only have a fraction of that sent. Let's say a factor of 1/100 to start (just an estimate out of thin air). That's still 200 launches/year for nuclear waste alone. According to the previous link, that's more than the current rate of launches per year. Obviously space travel will improve (ol'Musky with his Falcon Heavy maybe), but right now it's unsustainable (and too dangerous considering the number of launch failures).
So launching it into the Sun isn't that great yet, but nuclear energy is still better than fossil fuels in many ways.
EDIT: My estimate of 1/100 seems reasonable according to this which says 20% of US energy was generated by nuclear.
Wiki says the world is 4% nuclear right now. Doing my own calculation though, it says 2500 TWh/year nuclear and 100,000 TWh/year is used, means 2.5% is nuclear
2500 TWh of nuclear at 8 * 10^(-10) grams/joule (from the waste per person article), is 7 * 10^6 kg/year currently. That is 500 launches of the Delta IV Heavy per year currently. The Falcon Heavy would be about the same, with a 13000kg payload to Mars.
This was a lot of back of the envelope stuff. Please point out my mistakes if there are any.
Yep. It would be much smarter to reprocess all that spent fuel through some variety of traveling wave reactor than waste mega amounts of fuel trying to chuck it all into the sun.
And if you're doing 7 Venusian assists... it would be much easier to crash the whole thing into Venus.
Good point haha. I think it would be prudent to send it to Jupiter instead though. It's a much bigger planet with no surface, so there's a much smaller chance of it contaminating future experiments. Even though Venus has an incredibly harsh climate, (sulfuric acid clouds and such) I feel like a series of nuclear waste deposits would still be detectable for a long time.
It would be insanely expensive for one. The easiest (and safest) way to get to the sun is a gravity assist at Jupiter, slingshot around Jupiter and use it to reduce you speed so the spacecraft can fall into the sun. Cancelling out 30 km/s of lateral velocity is not easy.
But you aren't going to be able to send very heavy payloads out to Jupiter and such launches tend to cost a lot of money, 100 million pretty quickly for only a couple tonnes of payload. NASA's new SLS has a decent payload capacity but it could be 500 million a launch.
Then the spacecraft needs to survive the trip, a couple tonnes of uranium will emit a lot of radiation and it takes years to get to Jupiter and make the necessary course corrections. Radiation like that can fry electronics necessary for flight computers. Robots used at Chernobyl were killed by the radiation working on the reactor.
That first paragraph made me think of Interstellar.
Did you ever see Superman IV?
Think about more like this: "why is it a bad idea to put a few tons of highly radioactive materials on top of a 12 story stack of explosives"
nuclear waste is heavy, it wouldn't be feasible to launch it into space where any number of things can go wrong.. it's best to just encase it in glass and concrete and then leave it in a concrete and steel lined water tank deep underground. it remains radioactive for a long time, but it's only actually dangerous for a few decades
I worked in nuclear for awhile. It's amazing how much people are misled or just don't even know.
I watched John Oliver talk about nuclear waste and he used a commonly cited example for nuclear waste...a football field 20 feet deep.
He made it sound like this is horrible but if you actually put it in perspective its probably less than the amount of coal a single coal plant uses in a week, if not a day.
Go to Google Maps, find a football field, then zoom out to the state level. You can't come close to finding it.
Worst case scenario, we can always just launch the waste into the sun.
Oh god, imagine what would happen if a rocket carrying nuclear waste had an issue and either blew up within the Earth's atmosphere or failed to leave it.
We just have to wait until we have space elevators. Probably wont build up too much until then.
Chernobyl just irks me. It panicked the world about nuclear energy when it was the Russians being fucking morons and taking down EVERY SINGLE SAFETY CHECK ARGH and then running the damn thing full blast. OF COURSE IT'S GOING TO FAIL.
Regarding 3MI, from what I remember, that's considered a case of correct response to a reactor problem. Yeah, it was dramatic (thanks media!), but in reality it was very contained, and an example of what effective safety measures in nuclear power systems can look like.
Nuclear has its problems, but if it gets us off of fossil fuels, even if it's just as a transition while we wait for better battery systems to be developed for "renewables", then we ought to do it.
The thing with the fear of meltdowns, is it becomes a faustian bargain the more and more you have, closer to populations. The more you have, the more probable a natural disaster, not idiots willfully going against safety protocols during an experiment, will cause an incident. Earthquakes happen, things outside our control happen, and people will always use the NIMBY argument for not wanting nuclear generators near them, as they become more and more proliferate. Do YOU want to be the family who is at ground zero of the first horrific accident? People will always be too afraid of it because of the potential for harm, unless the plants themselves are so far from civilization, people can stop caring they exist.
Also, we don’t have a great track record with things that are harmless “unless you’re an idiot with ignores safety protocols.” Companies all over willfully dump toxic waste everywhere, we have several times accidentally dropped nukes near populated areas (with really only luck preventing them from detonating; basically there’s a huge proportion of humans who are fucking idiots with this kind of stuff. As you said, the more we have, the higher the risk.
The difference is that nuclear is the safest power source by a mile. Excluding wind which is roughly equal. Fossil fuels kill WAY more people per energy unit, and so does solar.
While I agree with your comments on nuclear waste and strongly support nuclear power, launching the waste into the Sun isn't feasible. It would require a very capable rocket to place it in a solar bound trajectory, and also the legal implications of the possibility of a launch failure with nuclear material is a bit of a headache. Perhaps just launching it to orbit around the Sun will solve the problem in the future with cheaper, reusable launch systems.
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Whoops. I was just looking for a ballpark on tonnage of waste, so I grabbed the first source on it I found. I was more focussed on demonstrating the multiple order of magnitude difference in byproduct tonnage. But thanks for pointing that out. I'm usually more careful about source bias
Fukushima happened after the plant got hit by one of the strongest earthquakes recorded, and then a follow up tsunami.
And then the head manager refused to shut down the plant while they instituted fixes, again breaking international safety protocols.
I'm all for nuclear and think we should have more, but...
Chernobyl was a result of idiots willfully going against safety protocol during an experiment.
This isn't a small problem. People are stupid and make lots of mistakes. I don't know how safety protocol and reactor design have progressed since then or how Russian vs. US reactors may differ, but human error simply can't be a possibility when dealing with nuclear reactors.
There's human error and there's purposefully disabling every single safety feature before running an experiment. Human error is being a bad driver. The Soviets removed their seat belts, brakes, mirrors, and their airbags.
Plus it was the Soviets. If your argument against nuclear power is a meltdown in Soviet Russia the same country who built the Lada Riva then that is a pretty poor argument.
Whoa. Haha I didn't realize the extent of their stupidity.
Yeah, read up a little on it. Honestly kinda amazing how much warning they had.
Yup yup. Chernobyl was 100% political fuck ups. I watched and read some seriously deep documentaries on it not too long ago. Willful negligence in safety procedures, all to get better "numbers" on it's safety... fail-safe features. And it went tits up and exploded.
Nuclear is far the way to go. But you know, scare tactics and all.
Because you have faith in future administrations to avoid political fuck-ups?
Chernobyl was also a flawed reactor design that was just begging to melt down eventually.
Three Mile Island melted down partially and a very small amount of radiation was emitted.
Coal has radioactive bits. We burn coal and those radioactive bits go into the atmosphere and cannot be contained. Burning coal as an energy source in today's world is fucking ludicrous considering the alternatives that are (and have been) available.
The Fukushima disaster wouldn't have even happened if the power company had listened to those namby pamby regulators. They were told their tsunami wall had to be higher, but they didn't listen. Other plants nearby, with higher walls, were unaffected.
I've been very pro-nuclear for a long time, but the entire issue a lot of people I know have is that they don't trust private companies to do it properly. Look at Vermont Yankee: tritium in the groundwater because of leaks in pipes, cesium in the soil because of defective fuel assemblies, and a cooling tower collapse because of corroded bolts and rotted lumber.
Like I said, I'm pro-nuclear, but it's becoming more clear to me that nuclear will always be just a stop-gap on the way to true renewables (yes, I'm fully aware of breeder reactors and how they work). Solar is getting better at a really fast rate, and nuclear is simply too expensive to invest in at this point in time.
Worst case scenario, we can always just launch the waste into the sun.
Too expensive. And, taking into account the 5.8% launch failure of rockets, the idea of having stratospheric Thorium as opposed to buried thorium is a bit more troubling.
If there was a higher success rate of rocket launches, and rocket launches were cheaper, I'd send them to the moon instead so that future lunar astronauts could use them for something. Sending them, or anything really to the sun pretty much makes a lot of material that we can't ever feasibly retrieve for re-usage.
Fukushima happened after the plant got hit by one of the strongest earthquakes recorded, and then a follow up tsunami. That's it.
It was actually built to handle the earthquake, and had provisions for a tsunami, they were just designed poorly. The only reason they had a problem was because they had their back-up diesel sump pumps underground. Guess where water goes when it floods... There have been a lot of changes made to US standards because of Fukushima. Source: I live close to a nuke plant and know a lot of people that work there.
France produces about 75% of its electricity from Nuclear and has done for decades.. I don't recall ever hearing about any nuclear accidents.
Huh, a French policy I actually like
Both of those reactors were also very old designs by modern standards, and neither incident would have happened with modern design and management.
There are some newer types of reactors being designed and built like liquid salt reactors that are far safer and can't melt down the way breeder reactors do.
One of the only reasons the breeder design was pushed instead of the other in the 1960s is that a by product of breeders is used for making nuclear weapons.
Also water is excellent for shielding from radiation.
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Sure. But as you said every industry has its dangers. Nuclear power is sort of like airplane travel. The disasters are noticeable and rare. But because the individual disasters, no matter how rare, are bigger, people focus on them. On the other hand, driving is a lot more dangerous than flying. But because its only a few people at a time people don't focus on it. Industries like coal mining are awful, both for the miners and for the population at large. The miners face a massive array of health risks. And the emissions have wide ranging negatives even beyond carbon dioxide. https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Air_pollution_from_coal-fired_power_plants.
So yeah, there are risks to increasing reliance on nuclear power, but because of the concentrated nature of the risk people are a lot more cautious. But there have only been a total of 7 meltdowns, of which only three resulted in casualties https://www.ucsusa.org/nuclear-power/nuclear-power-accidents/history-nuclear-accidents#.Wr1dviVOk0M. That's over the entire history of nuclear power, including the initial experimentation stage where you would expect those accidents to be more prevalent. So yeah, I'd be comfortable with assuming that risks would still be minimal even with expanded usage.
I would if I could, but it's a bit bigger than a one man job!
A lot of these suggestions to be more environmentally conscious are great and can make a difference if huge swaths of people pitch in, but we won’t slow climate change until our political and economic systems actually commit to large scale changes.
So i'm conflicted on this topic, I fully appreciate the baseload benefits, lack of carbon emissions, and longevity of these plants. However, my issue is that they are really freaking expensive to build, and they are a massive undertaking that take many many years to complete. In almost every case, these projects go way over budget (i'm not talking like 10%, sometimes pretty massively) and take 2-5x longer than expected to build.
Whereas technologies like solar can be deployed in a matter of months and is leagues cheaper. Obviously, it is intermittent and the capacity factor is much lower, but I think you get a lot more bang for your buck and quicker progress. If you were given a billion dollars and a 12 month timeframe (let's assume this is design/build only, no permitting crap), you could probably deploy ~1 GW of solar or have maybe 8-15% of a nuclear project completed. So you would need probably 9 billion more dollars and 7-12 years to get your 1 GW of nuclear up and running. If you look at apples-to-apples power ratings (assume 15% capacity factor) you are installing 150 MW equivalent of nuclear in each 1 GW of solar every year. So in 6ish years, you're beating nuclear on a level playing field, but due to time value and since it is incrementally placed in service each year the solar comes out on top even more.
Again, i'm conflicted because I do believe that nuclear has a place but its hard to argue with the economic and timeliness aspects when compared to other renewables. I will concede that 100% solar + wind as baseload is pretty much impossible, but i'm a firm believer that we can get to a much higher percentage than we are today before we really have to worry too heavily about these intermittency problems. And in that time, we will implement more energy storage as a buffer to smooth out load profiles.
[..] lack of carbon emissions [..]
That's not true. Both building and refining uranium ore release a multiple of what renewable energy does. Also keep in mind that even uranium is a finite resource and the amount of CO2 released will increase in time (probably decades) with lower-grade uranium reserves. Source
[..] I will concede that 100% solar + wind as baseload is pretty much impossible, but i'm a firm believer that we can get to a much higher percentage than we are today before we really have to worry too heavily about these intermittency problems. [..]
I will believe that once somebody provides evidence for that statement.
Also keep in mind that optimizing just energy production is kind of short-sighted. We have to improve energy efficiency by several means. A lot of energy is in the production of goods. We should aim for using products a long time, buy energy efficient devices instead of the cheaper ones and reduce our demands.
Both building and refining uranium ore release a multiple of what renewable energy does
This is pretty misleading, as once the ore is refined nearly no CO2 emissions are created, is my understanding. Nuclear may initial release more CO2, but it creates more energy and is a few orders of magnitude more efficient than solar in terms of CO2 per energy unit.
So in short, building solar--the most popular renewable energy source-- releases multiple of what nuclear energy does. This does not mean we shouldn't invest in solar--it is far better than coal--it just means nuclear gives more bang for your buck in terms of greenhouse gasses.
This is pretty misleading, as once the ore is refined nearly no CO2 emissions are created, is my understanding.
And I claimed nothing else.
I traced the sources of your sources. First of all, they assume a runtime of 60 years, which is quite high, 40 years is probably a more reliable number. They even admit using old data. See footnote xiii in ippc_wg3_ar_annex-iii.pdf, p. 5. They don't take into account that uranium will get scarce in the coming decades. I'm also not sure that it accounts for all energy cost during long-term storage (10.000 - 500.000 years). That's what everyone assumes: you dump it in the ground and it stays there forever. But that's not how earth works. (That's probably not too much relevant to our current problem but will bite us or our descendants in the ass in the future.)
So in short, building solar--the most popular renewable energy source-- releases multiple of what nuclear energy does. This does not mean we shouldn't invest in solar--it is far better than coal--it just means nuclear gives more bang for your buck in terms of greenhouse gasses.
At least it doesn't produce highly toxic waste that won't go away for an incredibly long time. Solar panels also won't blow up and poison areas for decades or centuries (although one should not forget how solar panels are produced).
However, wind and hydro both are even better and can easily compete with nuclear power (when including all hidden costs).
I will reevaluate my position once waste can be decomposed further.
Any time anyone brings up nuclear power everyone always shits all over it, but then goes back to bitching about coal. It's so stupid, and would be a great means to replace coal with a far cleaner alternative. I have no idea why people detest it so much when the only two major accidents involving it were a) extreme stupidity in a foreign country and b) a plant (also in a foreign country) that was hit by a historic earthquake and tsunami.
Fukushima could have been avoided if the government listened to scientists that wanted to design wave breakers.
Case in point, fukushima wasn't hit the hardest by the earthquake and tsunami. There was another plant closer to the epicenter and coast. The only difference between the two plants is that the fukushima owners purposefully used underestimates for their tsunami models.
I still just can't get past how long some nuclear waste is radioactive for - it may be misguided but I just can't see how any benefits outweigh this?
While the waste remaining is an issue, coal also releases radioactive waste, and in higher quantities than nuclear. The benefits to switching are releasing less nuclear waste, mostly eliminating CO2 and green house gas emissions, and stopping the release of fly ash.
So I'm definitely agreeing that we should find solutions other than fossil fuels - and reassess what we are using such a finite resource for in the first place? Renewables might not be the ultimate solution but imagine if more research had been done sooner? If we'd focused on using more renewable energy wherever possible decades earlier? I'm getting off topic but it just astounds me that oil isn't treated as a finite resource that AFAIK we haven't found alternatives for things like jet fuel so why are we still using it to make useless plastic crap?!
My point still is that nuclear waste is creating a problem that can last for millennia - and we only became an agricultural society 10,000 years ago. Before that - hunter gatherers for almost 2 million years. Also, how many societies had risen and fallen in just the 10,000 years? I actually think I wish I could be convinced that nuclear is the best option but I guess I have little faith in society dealing with short term problems let alone extremely long term ones.
Comparatively it's a small amount of waste product. Yes, it is highly dangerous, but with proper precautions we can handle it. It's actually a fairly easy problem to deal with in the states. We have a mountain we burry it deep inside. Other countries without as simple if an option may need to be a bit more creative.
Comparatively it's a small amount of waste product.
I would considers tens of thousands of tons as a big amount considering its toxicity.
Yes, it is highly dangerous, but with proper precautions we can handle it.
There is no way you can guarantee safety over long time spans. You have to think in hundreds of thousands of years.
It's actually a fairly easy problem to deal with in the states. We have a mountain we burry it deep inside.
I won't take your word for it. How long will it last? Can you provide safety without humans actively looking for it?
Also one question you left out: How much will it cost to actively watch over it that long?
Other countries without as simple if an option may need to be a bit more creative.
Like what?
edit: How is my post not constructive? Can you answer my questions? It is really lazy to click the downward arrow just because you disagree with someone.
The US actually constructed this giant mile deep hole facility to dispose of the nations nuclear waste safely. Like it exists and has for years but we stopped building halfway through and keep storing the waste in unsafe locations. Dumbest bit is the locals were actually very okay with it, but it got shut down because politicians and people not in the immediate area raised a stink about it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_Mountain_nuclear_waste_repository
I'm in no way an expert on the issue, but you can read more here.
As for other countries, guarded above ground storage is an option. Or shipping it to countries willing to store it. Maybe in the future we launch it to space. There are options. The idea is, in the long run and with proper precautions, there is a much greater environmental impact with coal and gas than there is nuclear.
I'm in no way an expert on the issue, but you can read more here.
How can you ensure that it will remain there safely?
As for other countries, guarded above ground storage is an option.
Did you calculate the cost of that? I don't think nuclear is a viable option with these costs involved.
What if humans forget about it? What if humans perish? Can we guarantee that it won't wipe out other species?
Maybe in the future we launch it to space.
That's absurd. We would have to ship thousands of tons to space every year and always pose risk of self-contamination. Costs, emissions and efficiency render it unviable.
There are options.
Then name them.
The idea is, in the long run and with proper precautions, there is a much greater environmental impact with coal and gas than there is nuclear.
I'm not arguing for coal and gas.
Yes but it’s quite simple to contain, water shields against radiation.
https://what-if.xkcd.com/29/
More radiation is released into the atmosphere by coal and gas for one. And that shit is airborne.
Nuclear is unfathomably more energy dense than anything else we have. It flat out doesn't create much waste. Especially with reprocessing.
Soviet union was well know for excedenly high safty standards.
No they were not. They were warned months before Chernobyl happened that it was unsafe, and they kept going with what they were doing/testing there anyways. It was entirely sheer incompetence and stupidity that led to Chernobyl's disaster.
Might want to check the batteries in your sarcasm detector.
Well, it's hard to read sarcasm in text, and it wouldn't be the first time I'd seen someone legitimately defending the Soviet Union to try and say it was the inherent fault of the nuclear power plant and not the engineers.
Everything in context I suppose.
It was sarcastic.
I don't know where you live, but Three Mile Island was absolutely a major accident (at least, in the colloquial meaning of the term).
In the context of the other accidents it wasn't, really. All of the safeguards prevented it from doing much compared to other disasters, and they continued using the remainder of the plant even years after the accident. It wasn't ideal mind you, but it led to no deaths and minimal damage. Even taking that accident into account anyways, it's still way less damage to the environment than coal does.
Geothermal energy is globally available, can run 24 hours a day and produces minimal waste/emissions. It isn't perfect but it is renewable and for our purposes, essentially infinite.
It is one of the least researched, least utilized sources of energy of all the renewables. Its a damn shame.
Coal also produces much more radiation than nuclear, let alone other pollutants.
As an individual, how do I do this in my own life?
Support nuclear energy when the topic comes. If politicians tend to be unfavourable to nuclear is because they perceive, and probably rightfully so, that the majority of the population is against nuclear. If the majority of the population supported nuclear power, they'd be lossing their asses over it. At the end of the day, they want votes.
Find the groups spreading negative propaganda regarding nuclear, and expose them.
Haha okay. Just let me turn on my thorium salt reactor.
Nuclear Fusion is by far our best bet. It’s fucking clean, it’s fucking powerful and we’ve already proven that it’s possible on a small scale, and is likely to be possible on a slightly larger scale as well. People have been building Tokomaks for years.
Check out ITER if you want to know a little bit more about how possible it is.
Supposedly by 2025 we’ll be making clean energy with a 1000% return rate, on what is essentially a prototype
http://www.iter.org
Supposedly by 2025 we’ll be making clean energy with a 1000% return rate, on what is essentially a prototype
Wasn't nuclear fusion "just 10 years away" for the past 50 years or so?
Yes, but the US has extremely strict regulations on building nuclear power plants, and even more so for testing new designs. If scientists were allowed to, it is likely we would be there, or at the very least much closer than now.
Supposedly by 2025
You might be too young to remember, but we've literally been promised Nuclear fusion "in the next 20 years" since 1960.
The problem is the US has extremely strict regulations on building new nuclear power plants, and even more so for testing new reactor designs. If scientists were allowed to, it is likely we would be there, or at the very least much closer than now.
ITER will not capture the energy it produces as electricity, but—as first of all fusion experiments in history to produce net energy gain—it will prepare the way for the machine that can
Well, that's unfortunate.
So, within the next 7 years we will have completed ITER, proven that it works, and completed another version of it that actually generates electricity?
Call me skeptical...
This is some r/futurology shit. All we've proven is that you can induce fusion. ITER is supposed to produce more energy than it uses. No other design gets anywhere close, and that's largely a problem of physics, not engineering. I'll let ITER explain how ridiculously massive it is.
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good and what not.
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Maybe it is always just a decade away, but we still can’t give up on it.
While agree that fusion is the answer. If you look at ITER and tokamaks and even the German built WX-12 or whatever it's called they all have big problems. Tokamaks are hard to run for extended periods of time. ITER has trouble with Plasma containment once the housing starts to heat up and the German built reactor is a year plus away from an actual test to see if they can contain the plasma. Fusion power has been ten years away for the last 20 years because big oil has fought tooth and nail to suppress research. We could have super efficient solar and wind power right now if those technologies hadn't had their research suppressed for decades. We could have cheap clean fusion power in 5 years if govt's would stop allowing this and put real funding into the technologies.
While nuclear is great for a baseline of power, it will never be able to touch how good coal and gas power stations are at rapid response. A nuclear power station will turn on and give the 8MW it was designed to give, nothing more, nothing less. That means it could never be 100% of energy generation because our power demand never stays constant, so in countries where Nuclear has already reached a staturation point (so to speak) there needs to be other methods of generation to be demand response.
However I agree there should probably be some form of Nuclear in most places.
Use nuclear energy. Right now
Yes sir!
What's your opinion on the long term storage for waste? Yea I get that's it's clean but I'm not a big fan of pushing our problems off into the future. It's like when oil companies and coil companies and mines destroy wetlands/their area and "remediate" it by leaving a tailing pond with some algae. And hiring planting companies to stick some trees in and saying the ecosystem is back to normal! Totally crap
Breeder reactors take that waste and reduce it. Sadly idiots thought they were "breeding" super beings or something...
Terra Power is also something everyone should check out. Funded by Bill Gates and is essentially a Burner and a Breeder reactor. Would theoretically be capable of using U-238 (waste) as a fuel, over and over again, pretty interesting stuff.
I think one important point is that with nuclear power you have physical waste. It's right there, you can look at it, you can store it somewhere and figure out some way to deal with it. With fossil fuel power you have these emissions which are released into the atmosphere and then they're kind of out of your reach. Yeah you can plant a tree to scrub it and replace with oxygen but that's a pretty passive approach. I'd rather have a stick of depleted uranium that we can store and deal with (or launch into the sun like another guy suggested haha).
I realize there's a lot more to it but this is just my first thought. Also, I'm not an authority on power production methods or environmental protection.
Do we have a desert shortage or something?
The Yucca Mountain Nuclear Waste Repository was certified to be geologically stable for the next 10000 years. Opponents to the project thought that was too short.
I mean, fuck. People think we'll be merging with AI in 100 years, yet somehow we won't have solved nuclear waste disposal in 10000 years? please. They just opposed the project out of ignorance.
I'll have a robot body by then and the only organic part of me will be my brain which will have a radiation shield surrounding it. No fucking problem.
I'mma be honest, that story where scientists thought we'd have a solution for the problems of radiation in the future has happened a lot and hurt a lot of people. So now, I wouldn't trust that we will have it figured out then, because we might not.
Yes, but you are juvenile and uneducated and that's why people under 30 should not make important decisions in this world.
Okay, the issue is still that overconfidence could be bad in the future and has been bad in the past. Anyway it's been real being called juvenile from /u/youareadildomadam
Depending on where you live... Yes. Not much desert in central Europe.
one potential solution are molten salt reactors which can be designed to run on waste from conventional reactors.
https://gizmodo.com/5990383/the-future-of-nuclear-power-runs-on-the-waste-of-our-nuclear-past
RIP Switzerland. Well, we voted for it...
What happened to Switzerland?
they voted to close down over half their nuclear reactors by 2022 (which provide's over 70% of their energy). it was in popular science a few months ago.
Our executive decided on phasing out nuclear energy production in Switzerland in the long-term. No new nuclear power plants are to be built. Our existing reactors (among them the oldest operational commercial reactor in the world, in the town of Beznau) will not be modernized at the end of their planned operational life-cycle and instead be decommissioned.
This all happened in the aftermath of Fukushima and has been controversial ever since. About 35% of our energy production is nuclear at the moment (55% hydro, 10% other).
/e: Of course it wasn't just decided, this "energy strategy 2050" was reaffirmed in a national referendum last year. This is what the above poster referred to, I guess.
Which one of you two is using the right numbers?
Me, even if not perfectly accurate.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-o-s/switzerland.aspx
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Switzerland
Yes. I agree. We can still research renewables in the meantime, but nuclear is what we have that works RIGHT NOW. Also. If people want less nuclear waste, they should approve research and testing to new, cleaner reactor technologies, like breeder reactors. The same for liquid sodium reactors if they're concerned about safety. Many environmentalists are self-defeating in this sorta way.
We need to bring it up more often while having climate change debates , solar and wind aren't going to be reliable in the near future . So this is our only alternative. We'll have time to figure out nuclear waste but climate change needs to be addressed imediately.
Solar and wind can never adequately handle baseload...
Why? Genuine question, I'd love to be educated if anyone knows about this stuff. I'm Aussie, but I lived in the Scottish highlands for the last couple of years, and they have wind farms everywhere. Every now and again on the news they would mention that the entirety of Scotland was powered by the wind farms.
Is there some issue with storage of power? If there is a windy day, can't we save it for the next day?
You're essentially asking for an enormous battery. The problem is that batteries are terribly inefficient so you squander lots of the energy you capture. Then add to that the battery has to be HUGE, like city sized. There are other methods, in my state for instance theres a lake with a hydro plant where they took the top off a mountain, they pump water from the river into the lake during the night when electricity is cheaper and let it run down through the hydro plant (making electricity) during the day when electricity is more expensive.
Its economically viable now only because it was built in the 1950s when you could still take the top off a mountain, today you could never afford to build such a thing if anybody would actually allow you to do it.
So the problem with renewables is they aren't good at making baseload (thats the power you need all the time). Solar is generally great for high demand in the summer, when its hottest you tend to be making lots of solar and it allows you to offset lots of load but it does you no good at all at night.
Wind would be perfect if you always had it but even the windiest places stop having wind sometimes.
The biggest problem really is having enough power plants for baseload when you're trying to depend on renewables. Ideally you have to have a bunch of baseload power plants you aren't using. Unfortunately somebody will see a bunch of plants sidelined and close them, then you get a non-windy day and your baseload can't be met...
Exactly that. You cannot control the output of solar or wind energy thus you cannot meet the demand sometimes. What happens when there is more demand than the renewable supply can support? You burn coal or gas. Also, it is virtually impossible to store the energy generated by solar and wind to use it later. Musk's gigantic battery plan is promising but it is long way from now. Edit: Why did I get down vote, seriously.
Please don't take this as me having an agenda, because I literally have no idea, and i'm using this as an opportunity to learn from people who know more than me.
Why can't they just build more wind farms if there is more demand? And when there are days that have more demand than wind farms can produce, so you have to burn coal or gas, wouldn't the amount of gas or coal that you have to burn be less than if you didn't have wind farms? So lets say they work out that on an average day (averaged out over the year) wind farms produce 80% of the total amount needed, isn't that 80% less of coal and gas used?
And if after a couple of years it was at a reasonably constant 80%, you could build more so that the average was as close to 100% as possible, so the amount of coal and gas used is as close to 0 as it can be?
Why can't they look at the highest use day of the year, and then build enough wind farms to cater for that, and simply turn them off on the days when less energy is needed?
Nuclear fusion
I’m all for nuclear but look at that new Hinckley reactor, it’s costs are extortionate and even after its finished the electricity is too. And it takes sooo long to build them. But ye political.
Nice try Mr Snrub, we know it's you.
I don't agree with your points because these are all based on best practices, companies are too lazy and too careless to carry out best practice solutions when they aren't the most financially viable solution, it simply just costs less and is easier for them to dump the waste in a quarry and fill it in with concrete then to do anything else with the waste.
The decline is due to economic reasons in most of the US right now. In deregulated energy markets the cost of natural gas is so low, even existing nuclear plants can't compete in the open energy market without federal subsidy. Fracking has reduced the cost of natural gas to rates that don't make sense to continue to operate or invest in nuclear at least from an economic stand point. The problem is that most individuals have little to no influence in how energy is generated in their market. And if you look at politics, the average voter is hard to mobilise to vote to pay more for something. Unfortunately we can't uninvent the fracking process. Eventually NG rates will go back up and I think that's when we might see a reinvestment into nuclear.
As a albertan currently looking at -18 in the coming days, I say please burn more coal. Granted, it will fuck over the third world. Shorelines may recede. But fuck me this winter has been cold and long. Our first snow was in september and it's STILL FUCKING MISERABLE OUTSIDE!
Please burn fossil fuels.
I have 5 overhead lights and 4 outlets on nuclear. I always try to use them vs. the coal powered or renewable outlets and lights. The light is cleaner and more steady. Since it is steady, I keep my fridge and furnace blower on them. I only use the renewable ones for things like charging my phone and my water heater because they are so sketchy. I have some old-timey lights that just look wonderful with the coal power, and of course the toaster.
I pity the fool that disagrees with this.
Even if we don't have the tech to strictly use renewable energies on a regular basis, 90% or so of the energy used at my home is solar powered. The other 10% comes from some big energy company so who knows where it comes from... So if you can't convince the big guys to go nuclear, at least use renewable energy locally.
Nuclear energy is always better than coal/natural gas, as long as you have a place to hide it.
Plus, think of the superpowers you could get if your local plant melts down!
Gen 3 reactors are not capable of meltdown. That is why China is building over 30 new huge nuclear plants.
Yeah, that's the official reason.
But we all know they just want some superheroes.
Is it because Gen III has so much water? I hate surfing all over it.
You make it idiot proof, they'll make a better idiot.
A better idiot with a team of Nuclear Reactor Engineer PhDs?
It's not the engineers that i worry about, it's management. The two worst nuclear disasters can be blamed on the engineer's higher ups.
But I do agree with you, nuclear shouldn't be so vilified.
The two worst nuclear disasters can be blamed on...
...inferior designs. BTW, the management at these plants are always nuclear engineers themselves. You don't appreciate the amount of brain power in these plants. There are no "evil corporate" corner cutters in them.
Solar is actually cheaper (don't downvote until you google it).
Worth noting that nuclear fuel is too limited (in terms of uranium) to be a power source for mass uptake. Nuclear has to be a component of world consumption but with never realistically exceed a fraction of the total supply.
There is enough fuel, mostly if we add thorium, which we could use if we invested in nuclear, to be used for the foreseeable future.
Of course, not forever, but no power source will last forever, and coal is no exception.
don't have the tech to support our electric network only with renewable energies on a regular basis. Most countries that are reducing or completely eliminating their nuclear power are doing so by compensating it with coal or gas.
Reality is, nuclear energy is the safest kind of energy and one of the cleanest. Its decline is more political than technical or enviromental.
Disagree. Sure it's great at producing power, and yes the output is essentially clean, but if something goes wrong, like Fukushima, it goes massively wrong. Now that land is unusable for hundreds of years. We don't even really know the extent of how bad it is. We keep saying that incidents are rare but we've had plenty of incidents worldwide since the 60s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_and_radiation_accidents_and_incidents
Solar, Hydro, Wind and Natural Gas supplemented with batteries are the best forms of energy production.
Use nuclear energy. Right now, we don't have the tech to support our electric network only with renewable energies on a regular basis.
We don't need to switch over to 100% renewables (although scientists at Stanford University outlined detailed plans on how most of the whole world can run off renewables exclusively.) If we simply make our existing energy grid and use more efficient, we don't need to ever build another power plant. Most people waste at least 30% of the energy they use.
Reality is, nuclear energy is the safest kind of energy and one of the cleanest.
...Except when it isn't, and then it becomes the most destructive kind of energy in the history of mankind, rendering entire communities completely uninhabitable for centuries. Another problem with nuclear is that it trades one fought after limited commodity (fossil fuels) for another one (uranium).
I'm just going to put this word here: Tchernobyl
Edit: why am I being downvoted? Doesn't Reddit like the idea of someone opposing nuclear energy? Cheesus Christ people…
Chernobyl was an incident due to massive incompetence. It's not likely to happen again. Even if it happened again, nuclear energy would still be the safest in terms of deaths per energy produced.
Incompetence, negligence, ancient tech compared to modern generation reactors, and on top of that soviet era regulations and locale.
Fukushima would've been a more realistic example, and that would've been just as pointless. There the events were basically Moore's Law bumping with reality. After the earth quake half the reactors shut down, a tsunami overtook their 6 meters high seawall and flooded emergency generators resulting in power failure that resulted in worst case scenario where all emergency systems failed to activate.
And still it was an insignificant (if unfortunate) event compared to the benefits of nuclear power. Coal kills more people every year than died as a result.
A meltdown like that is actually not possible in modern plants.
I'm going to add a few words....
"...was designed in 1950 by people who barely understood nuclear power. Modern plants are gen 3 standardized designs that are not capable of meltdown."
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There were a bunch of pregnant freshman at my second high school (moved states after 10th grade, new school). There were so many pregnant students that we literally had a daycare for the babies on campus.
Were abortions legal there?
I live in Arizona, Catholics don't believe in birth control or abortion. But yes, it's perfectly legal here.
Better than 4 kids. At least she lives somewhere where abortions are legal. I’m not saying abortions are great, just that seems better that the alternative
Abortions are great. They are safe and easy to perform. Without obstructive legislation they'd be easy to access. The risk for ling term complications are very low. They allow women to plan and space their pregnancies in a way that works for them. And most women find they are relieved after the procedure.
On the other side if a wanted fetus is non-viable abortion allows the parents to terminate before the fetus suffers.
I know we mostly agree but I think if we talk positively about the issue it can help the stigma associated with it.
I definitely agree with you. In a sane and moral world women should always have access to reproductive care and agency over their bodies. I was just trying to word it in a way to point out the logic and avoid dealing with people like the one that commented before you
Just. Wow. I I cannot believe that people actually think the way that you do.
That I’m happy a 15yo doesn’t have 4 kids? Are you very religious and/or anti-legal abortion?
That you're happy someone killed off 4 kids that would definitely have been adopted?
Ah right..
What quality of life would they have? Can you point us to sources of 100% adoption rates? What of the affect on the mother? Would she be able to pursue education, work, etc. while pregnant at 15?
Nobody "killed off 4 kids." To be entirely frank, a lot of present parenting research suggests that there's a fourth trimester even after birth, such that even a three month old is barely truly "born" yet in a sense of being a human being prepared to fully embrace and tackle the world around them.
And if you wanna get philosophical you can take it a step further - when are you earliest memories? When did your personality really begin? Language acquisition, reading? If a woman miscarrying after a month isn't murder, neither is aborting after a month.
Im proabortion, but FYI waiting lists to adopt infants are years long in the US. A child surrendered at birth is essentially guaranteed to have hundreds of excellent prescreened families thrilled to adopt that baby.
Affordable/free birth control for all! And may as well do affordable health care too while we're at it.
Wow, if this is true her community has failed her. Where does she live where abortions are easily accessible which also has terrible sex ed and low access to birth control?
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At this point her family should have her get an iud, implant, or shot and when she is more responsible she can make her own medical decisions.
15 year olds are stupid (some more than others) that's why they need help with these kind of decisions.
Do you actually think that there's a problem with the schools providing abstinence as an option??
I think the problem is that they completely ignore the fact that condoms exist.
That's probably bad for her psychologically and what not, indicative of bigger problems in her life. But it's not unethical to have an abortion.
Debatable. Depends on what point you consider that fetus to become a human being. I think we can all agree that the murder of an innocent human is morally wrong, so if the baby can be considered human, and was brought into the world NOT through any fault of its own, but through the negligence of its mother, surely killing it is wrong. The real debate is over when it can be considered human. However, even if you don't value human life or you don't consider a fetus to be human, it's wasteful.
Read Judith Jarvis Thomson's excellent paper 'A defense of abortion': even assuming that the person begins at conception, you can defend abortion.
If you assume it is an innocent person, yet justify its murder, you are on a very very dangerous path. Some things are morally wrong, end of story, and the ends don't justify the means. The only situation in which murder is justified is in self defense, the defense of others, if the person in question has committed and equal or greater violation of human rights.
There isn't any one set of rules that is considered the right ethics. You can take an intro to ethics class or read a book that covers the topics. The ends justifying the means is a dividing factor between the different schools of thought.
Point being even in ethics there is not an agreed upon moral code to refer to.
Just read the article. While she makes several persuasive arguments, she fails to adequately address the implied contract involved in voluntary sexual congress: by having voluntary sex you are forfeiting your right to kill the life that YOU created.
So in cases of rape or if you used birth control and it was unwanted then you would say it is a convincing argument? I agree, and then abortion should be legal. Why? Because there is no way they are going to force women to prove that in court for every abortion. So they have to keep it legal in general.
Birth control is tricky ground, but rape is absolutely grounds for an abortion. Why do you think I kept qualifying my statements with "voluntary"?
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What does this have to do with dehumanizing women? I would say the same if men were capable of pregnancy.
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This is the reason anti-choice people don't support comprehensive sex ed or free contraceptives. They want to punish the woman for her choice to have sex outside of marriage. They want women who are "immoral" to be put in their place.
If they have sex, there is an implied contract that they will at the very least bring the life THEY created into the world. Why should an innocent human life have its rights violated because of actions beyond their control?
That kind of contract would never stand up legally if it was for anything else. You can't get someone to sign something and then have them legally be your slave for 9 months. You don't get to arbitrarily decide that sex is different with 0 justification.
There was no coercion, there was not even a second or third party involved. It was a contract drafted and signed entirely by the mother, and one that results in the murder of an innocent life if violated. That sounds like good grounds for upholding a contract to me.
Uh excepting the absurdity of this entire statement (none of that has anything to do with the fact that a contract can't give away your rights - like how you can't sign a contract putting yourself into slavery, even if you make the decision without coercion, and who says this even happened without coercion?), preeeetty sure there was a second party involved... This is what people mean when they say y'all are misogynistic.
Pregnancy does not violate your rights so long as the sex was consensual. Arguing that it does is absurd. It doesn't kill you (if it did, there would be grounds for abortion) and it doesn't take away anything you can't sign away in any other contract. Hell, you can make contracts with others to get them pregnant!
A fetus is not a human being till it is coming out of the mother's womb. Fight me!
This fucking heart-beat at 18 days BS and other shit do no good except guilt people into taking the wrong decision.
Surely the standard for human life is more complex than being birthed. Isn't it a little hypocritical to belittle others for having a simplistic and poorly thought out position, only to belch out one of your own?
It is and hyperbole is the only thing that makes sense to me at this point. The number of ad boards about 18 days heart beat and evolution being wrong near where I live have made me cynical. I am from India and came to USA because the grass felt greener here but the poor ppl are being manipulated in all sorts of crap here.. I feel very bad seeing this :(
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Quite a nihilistic point of view isn't it?
I see 0 reason to consider people alive before they are born, at least not in a meaningful way for ethics. They've never even been conscious, they aren't sentient. In my opinion, there's nothing that ethically distinguishes say, an 8 month old unborn fetus from unfertilized gametes.
What separates scratching some skin cells to death and murdering a human being? Their mind. If the fetus is capable of higher brain functions, it should not be harmed. O course, that's just my opinion, there's a lot of ethical debate there. Some say it's always human because of the DNA, and some would take an even more extreme stance than you and say you aren't human until the age of 25, where your brain fully develops.
The puritans believed in abortion up to the quickening which is when you can feel it moving around. That's completely arbitrary and fairly far along so I think modern Christians should adopt this belief.
Hmm.. I have very little idea about all of this. If a doctor and research says it is safe for hte mother and she wants to abort, I think I'll just agree with it, no more questions.
Religion shouldn't be used to manipulate others.
Religion manipulates everyone. It is so far reaching. Abortion used to be a Catholic issue that protestants didn't much care about. Then the republicans politicians and some very influential religious figures made it the sole issue to the evangelical protestants to manipulate voters.
Maybe climate change will enter that same route in the future. In India, religion and caste is used openly to divide people unnecessarily for votes. And the most violent ones embrace it so warmly and cause tension everywhere.
Say I don't value human life, or don't consider it human. What do you mean by wasteful? I'd think it's even more wasteful to feed it and care for it in the long run.
You could have easily avoided the drain on your/public funds by taking the appropriate precautions. Furthermore, you have wasted the months of gestation and the potential for future benefits.
I don't think it's a drain on public funds. Again, it's about stopping the gestation and on the long term, better allocation of resources for a baby born in a better context . This is a 15yo potential mother after all. Also, future benefits are highly subjective, to definition and environment.
Or four different women whose lives would have been made whole by having a child. Your mentality is fucked.
And to back up a step, don’t be a shit parent that your kid has to have endured this at all, much less 4x!!! My God people parent your kids!!!
r/thathappened
Sorry but that is just not believable.
I know a girl who is 15 and has had four abortions.
Not too bright is she?
Abstinence keeps failing.
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More like /r/ReligiousPropagandaPreventingUsefulSexEd
She's 15. They do stupid, reckless shit even when they have the information to make better decisions. If your entire life you're told condoms fail all the time and birth control might give you cancer, why bother?
TBH I am jealous that 15yo kids are having sex and having fun in life. When I was in high school, I was so far from this type of fun.. even into engineering school.. Maybe I am just plain ol' ugly and stupid.
Or this random Redditor is lying. Or the girl is getting abused :/ four abortions is a lot, usually they offer to insert an IUD at the same time as the abortion (if it's surgical) so 4 by the age of 15 is so insanely outside the norm. Or it's just a rumour OP heard and blindly believed. But unless this girl is like crazy fertile and crazy sexually active, she'd have been like 12 or 13 when she got her first abortion.
Most highschoolers are all talk. I'm sure you didn't miss out on much. Maybe some awkward fondling and relationship drama.
Ha! But then I see mothers who are 16yo so there is some action!
OTOH, I don't feel very bad that I didn't get any fun times back then. I am with a person I like a lot, and she likes me back too. That's more than what I could ask for and I am thankful for having everything I do.. :)
Exactly! I promise anything you're experiencing now is far better than anything in high school, lol. I get what you mean though. I graduated University almost a year ago and only ever went to two actual parties. But now I can get fucked up in my apartment with my boyfriend and that's a lot more fun!
This is the reasonable response. This same rumor went through my high school ten years ago.
yup, this is a superb example of the failure of sex ed / abstinence only education.
One of my high school buddies was adamant that pulling out was fine and condoms were not necessary. He now has 3 children from 3 different women.
Oh my god that is horrifying. She needs to be put on the damn pill along with condoms.
Nah, she should use the pill+condoms+spermacide+the very experimetal male fetility pill+pullin out.
Better than her having 4 babies. Better sex ed and access to free contraceptives would help this issue a lot but individually we can't do much. If you have teenagers put them on birth control before they need it.
Schools here talk about abstinence, but they never bring up condoms. I think that some people who have influence on the state just don't want premarital sex.
Jesus fuck, sterilize that fiend already!
I think she'll be sterile by 30 judging by how many eggs she is going to waste.
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What do you mean? My point was that every aborted fetus=one used egg. Obviously it is exxageration, but is there something wrong?
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You don't understand the female reproductive cycle at all.
Yeah I forgot that ovulation stops once a woman is pregnant. I also didn't know how many eggs a woman had until today. Sorry.
At this point, I think the problem lies more with the girl than anything else.
I’m sorry, but as the mom of a teen girl who is about to turn 14, I can assure you the problem lies with the parent more than anything else. Not excusing the behavior but if that girl had proper parents there’s no way she’d have 4 abortions on her teen resume. Nope!
If she can have three abortions and still not learn enough from the experience to avoid the fourth, then I doubt her parents will be able to get through to her regardless of how much they tell her to use protection.
Girl that was 3 or 4 years younger than me in school had 3 babies when she was a sophomore in high school.
Is this her? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZnm3ZUrxOc
This is porn, isn't it? I'm gonna click the link, and it's going to be some weird video of a women moaning.
Not porn, but the context does seem like a risky click.
FOUR ABORTIONS? Dear lord
Not making decisions based on whats best for yourself, but what has the greatest benefit for all people.
Obviously not in all things all the time, but the egomania within our society makes it so much worse than it could be.
in the spirit of this thread, it's easy to do this in little ways throughout your day. clean the sink or sponge in your work break room. pick up a piece of trash. think about the way that you park your car and how that impacts the people around you. there are a thousand opportunities every day to do something little that will benefit everyone.
Man, I need more ChicagoManualofFunk's in my city.
I think a good general rule of thumb is "if everyone did what i am thinking about doing, would this area be better or worse?" I won't claim to always be the best about following it, but it's at least a fine place to start.
i know someone with the opposite problem. they put so much effort and thought into accommodating for other people and making sure everyone else is happy that they forget to care about themselves and its negatively impacting their own happiness and mental health
"You can't pour from an empty cup."
Are we friends????
That would be me. But I’ll more than likely keep on doing it.
I found that you can't always help others if your own health is being affected. There are some days where the best thing to do for others is to take care of yourself first :) You'll enter burnout otherwise, and recovering from can take a very long time (usually it's 1:1 ratio with how long it took to get into burnout). Hopefully you will be able to find some downtime for yourself.
(I say this not knowing anything about your situation but hopefully it's helps)
Empathy is on a scale. At one end you can have sociopaths and psychopaths who have so little concern for others they are a danger to society. At the other end of the scale you can have people who are so empathetic that they're constantly taken advantage of, and are a danger to themselves. A healthy balance is best... being a bit more empathetic than neutral.
I see you have met my family.
Sounds like my ex wife.
At the end of the day the people being positively impacted are a net positive. It's okay to sacrifice one persons happiness for the sake of multiple people.
I think the unforunate truth is humans aren't wired to think like that. Taking the entirety of humanity and their interests into consideration when making a decision is too much. It was easier when our worlds were smaller and we knew the people we were thinking about personally. In an ideal world people would consider what was best for them and the decisions would benefit everyone because they were actually choosing good things for themselves instead of destructive things. When you feel like you’re responsible for the whole world you say “Fuck it, those two guys over there are assholes and offsetting whatever I was going to do anyway.”
I'll hypothesize that this isn't a symptom of our scope enlarging, but of the dissolution of local communities. Humans are wired for community; the problem is that we need a community smaller than 7 billion people. If smaller communities can orient themselves toward the larger interests of humanity rather than putting that onus on individuals, the structure is there for people to make decisions that are in the interest of their own identified community which are also in the interest of a much larger swath of humanity.
Not making decisions based on whats best for yourself, but what has the greatest benefit for all people.
Sounds like communism to me.
That's one of those things that work great on theory but will fall apart in practice every single time because other people suck.
[Utilitarianism] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism)
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I don't think that it's some truth that can't be helped. Our system encourages this behaviour and rewards it. It's a problem of our own making.
a thousand times this. people act selfishly because selfishness is rewarded. I don't even think that most people are actually selfish, but the ones who are certainly aren't discouraged.
“Live like everyone should.”
Nah... that would really stick it to minorities of all kinds, and could lead to an intolerant dictatorial society. There needs to be a balance between personal freedom and benefit to society. (Of course, that is the ego in me talking. I suspect the greatest benefit to society would be if I stopped breathing, along with a few billion others.)
Donate blood! It’s super easy, you get free snacks, water and stickers! (and sometimes other perks too! Like coupons and T-shirt’s). You’re saving lives. Other than medical issues there’s literally no other valid reason not to do it.
I just scheduled my next donation, had to stop for a couple years cause of medical issues, but I’m cleared to donate again. And with this next donation, I’ll have donated a gallon of blood.
Other than medical issues there’s literally no other valid reason not to do it.
Being gay...
I was ~~organ~~ blood donor until I had sex once, I'm not about to give up sex in order to donate blood.
I'm pretty sure you can still be an organ donor regardless of who you have sex with. Blood donation and their restrictions are a different issue and it's unfortunate that at this time they don't allow gay individuals to donate.
Yes, gay men can still be organ donor. However, you can't donate blood as a sexually active gay man.
Thought so, your original comment said you were an organ donor until you had sex, maybe you meant to say blood donor? If not I hope you sign up again to be an organ donor.
Ah yeah, I was still with my head in a comment I had placed a couple minutes before that one. I am organ donor, no doubt in my mind about remaining organ donor.
Well if you don’t use condoms then it can be considered a medical issue, since HIV/AIDS isn’t detectable for months and the gay community has the highest rate.
Otherwise just lie on the form like everyone else does.
It’s a federal requirement that the American Red Cross has to follow. And many other progressive countries have the same requirements. It’s not because of homophobia. It’s because the risk of HIV/AIDS
I definitely know the reasoning, and I do agree that some discrimination on this is the right way to go. I personally would just feel terrible lying on such forms. So I would just want a system where the doctor asks you some personal questions when you check that box.
So much yes!!!
Woot! I'm on my gallon donation next too.
If somebody asked you to sit around for an hour if it was going to save someone's life, almost everyone would do it.
So why not donate? It's 100% worth knowing someone might be fucking alive because I managed to sit still for ~10 minutes through a little discomfort.
Also helped me get over my fainting at the sight of blood.
They sell that shit for so much to the patient it angers me people aren't compensated for it. Either pay participants or give it away.
The Red Cross isn’t run by volunteers. The people working there need to make money
If its a for profit system then they need to compensate donors then and stop pretending its charity work. It's a commodity.
It IS nonprofit. Seriously you shouldn’t need to be compensated. It makes you quite the asshole to refuse something as simple as a blood donation, which could save multiple lives per donation, all because you want a couple bucks out of it.
Then why charge poor people who need blood then? Thats the problem I have with it, its not right
Cause it costs the ARC money to get the blood, store the blood, and transport the blood. And they need to cover those costs.
Is there something similar I can do if I'm too far underweight to give blood or plasma? I've been doing some looking around, but all I can see is giving money. I'm open to other suggestions!
Sign up for the bone marrow registry, too. It's super easy, and most people don't ever actually get called on to donate- but there's a chance you might be the best match out of the millions of people on the registry and can save someones life when no one else could.
Legalize gift cards for donations in canada and I'll donate platelets/plasma/white blood cells/red blood cells like I did in the US. This blood isn't free, my man. I expect some kind of fungible reward that can be exchanged for meats.
That’s sad
They charge the patient over 500$ a bag!
I'm poor, it takes me physical energy to grow those cells. It's reasonable that I should get some kind of reward.
No it’s not. You’re already getting free snacks and water in exchange for your blood. You don’t need additional compensation
Edit: donation and selling are two different things.
I was going to reply that paying people for blood actually hurts the safety of the blood supply. But I looked it up and that was from a 1970 study that may be wrong. The original Freakonomics book wrote about the 1970 study and now they have a blog post about a more recent one.
Re-rack your God damn weights.
Realize that this tribal mentality causes us more harm then good. If we understand that we are all humans and are in this together then many problems that we have could be eliminated. Some of those would be: healthcare, war, racism, and consumerism, to name a few.
If we understand that we are all humans and are in this together then many problems that we have could be eliminated.
The problem with that is that we have to realize it all at the same time. If one group realizes it and starts acting like it, groups that don't will instantly steamroll it. The sad reality is that you have to keep pushing simply because if you stopped you would get pushed. Yes, if everyone would just stop at the same time, it would be all sunshine and rainbows. But anything that begins with the words "if everyone would just" is not a real solution.
I heard someone say the other day:
The best way to deal with 'us-vs-them' is to use 'we.'
What is amazing to me is when humans generally have a consensus on doing or believing something we are unstoppable. Imagine what we could do if we all worked together towards ending our problems. You use the term tribal mentality and I don't think you are using it appropiately because I think we need to be more tribal in the sense that we are all part of the same tribe and need to support our tribe members as such.
We are a species, tribal mentality divides us, as a whole we are powerful. Divided we cannot be self-sustaining forever.
Why is this not the top comment
cue the wakandans
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Lol that isn't the tribalism OP was referring to and you know that. That's just family.
That's not what tribalism is. You're reaching real hard to justify your raciam
Sure it is. It is the innate draw to people like yourself. At it's inner most core it is family, then extended family, then the tribe (hence the fucking name) or community, then the nation-state. Pretty simple concept.
We’ve got to move away from the “disposable” culture we’ve got. Having everything being one use, including huge appliances is just not right. Learning how to repair our stuff and do basic maintenance on bikes/cars/kitchen appliances isn’t just ethical, it makes financial sense too.
/r/zerowaste !! Join us
Abstain from all "fashion." Fashion is a climate crime, no holds barred. Fashion is why you buy new clothes even though the old ones are in good condition. It's why you remodel a kitchen that's perfectly functional. Why front yards are landscaped in monocultures with non-native species and pesticides galore. Why diamond mines and their atrocities exist.
"The new look this season" and "the hot trend in __" are pointless in the largest scheme of things and do more harm than good.
I fucking hate the legally enforced waste of space that is a front lawn. I would totally plant tomatoes, onions, green peppers, garlic, etc and rip out every bit of wasteful grass, but the city of calgary would fine me a shitload. I'm required to maintain this monoculture.
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Why yes, I was that guy haha.
Buy vegetables and fruits that make sense on a seasonal and geographic standpoint. Eating strawberries in the middle of winter does not make sense. Eating dragonfruits in Northern US or avocados if you live in Europe does not make sense. Funnily enough, eating quinoa in most of the western world makes very few sense.
I know about the fruits but not about quinoa. My wife introduced me to it and now it's a staple of our diet, are we doing the bad?
I'm not really sure as some sources say yes and some say no.
What I've read is that it was something that needs altitude to be growing, so it was the main food source for some towns in Central/Southern America. Having it sold to the west at huge price rather than using it to feed their families destabilized the economy of these towns and has, apparently, been a bad thing overall. Also, everything that has to do with more intensive agriculture and processing.
Once again, that's only what I've been reading and to be fair, more recently, I read the negative effects were overblown and it was not that bad, so that's why I was careful in my wording...
Interesting- thanks for clarifying and being fair about how its presented.
On a side note, it's weird that "the west" is sometimes not Latin America which is on the Western hemisphere but I know what you mean.
It's just that I am myself trying to make the best choices, and Quinoa is a big component in many "vegan" reciepes. I have been trying to get more information, but get conflicted reports, so I tell it as I see it. Let me know if you find more decisive stuff!
Yeah it's weird... I actually wrote "Developed country" at first, but it did not feel right...
No, don't tell me when I can buy my strawberries dammit
Lucky for me I love oats, beans, and wheat
Eat a little bit less meat.
Or a lot less meat, or no meat at all, or, best yet, no animal products at all.
Any movement away from meat consumption is good.
To cut down on the use of single use plastic cutlery learn to use chopsticks. People of the asian persuasion are doing it right. Even those single use wooden chopsticks wrapped in paper that you have to break apart to use, the ones you get from takeout restaurants, are better for the environment than plastic cutlery. Not sure of the actual numbers but they probably have even less of a carbon footprint than metal cutlery. Totally biodegradable, it's a stick.
I only use chopsticks when they're presented to me at asian restaurants, but I love that they make me slow down. It's so easy to get into the habit of eating quickly and unconsciously, and chopsticks also force you to pay more attention to each bite. Much harder to eat past satiety that way.
Till you get so good with them that you start shoveling it in again. That's what happened to me, haha.
Oh interesting fact:
If you eat slower you feel fuller with less food. Good dieting trick, its because the hormones that tell your braib you are full take a while to come into effect.
The more you know
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Let me know how a chinese taste
But metal knives and forks i can use forever.
Not just you, your kids...
You've already replaced disposable cutlery then.
Right? My parents have had the same silverware for like 40 years.
So have mine, but uh, it's looking kinda questionable at this point lmao.
I just keep a spare metal fork in my handbag. Never have to use single use plastic cutlery that way!
Make sure you don't accidentally take it through airport security. I had a metal fork in my purse (completely forgot it was there), and ended up having my bags searched, being patted down, and questioned... And I had to surrender the fork... (no big loss).. . You'd have thought I was carrying a loaded gun...
Thanks for the warning. I'm on a flight tomorrow and would ABSOLUTELY have forgotten that!
Funny how they find a fork in a purse, but they miss something like 90% of explosives in tests. It's like they suck at doing what they are supposed to do or something.
My mom had a pair of tiny scissors confiscated from her sewing kit... They didn't care about the needles that were also in there...
EDIT: I've been corrected - it was my Grandma.
I carry several packages of good disposable bamboo chopsticks with me because I hate the feeling of plastic on my teeth.
I use them as kindling for lighting fires. The irony isn't wasted on me.
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He didn't say it's good for the environment. He said it's better than plastic cutlery.
because forests grow back?
Also there's always bamboo.
metal cutlery shouldn't have a major negative impact - providing the metal cutlery does get damaged metal can be melted and reshaped and reused.
Peace, love and altruistic forgiveness
Keep in mind, there are limits to this. Sometimes the best thing for a person is to set limits with how much you are willing to provide for them.
Forgiveness isn't necessarily acceptance. For me it's more about letting go of things that you can't change. I'm working on trying to let people's behavior inform how I act moving forward, without letting it build into a grudge. If it's in the past, it's in the past, but I can choose how much of it happens in my future.
you can let go without forgiving. i dont stress about some people anymore, but i would never let them back in my life either
I've been saying for a while we need forgiveness day as a holiday. For all these pointless holidays we have focused on getting people to buy shit they don't need or some stupid activist cause, we need one that brings us together.
Reflect on those whom have wronged you or you have wronged and forgive them or apologize. This could go a lot further than the perpetual blaming occurring these days.
Easier said than done.
Which makes it all the more important
I find it pretty easy. It doesn't mean you can't make mistakes. But letting those things guide your life and decision making is pretty easy. What makes it difficult is trying to practice those things while still letting success, money, power, and selfish ambition be what actually determines your life choices. But I'm a pretty messed up person so what do I know.
Well yeah, that’s the ethical decision part. It wouldn’t really be much of an ethical decision if it was easy for most people.
I really really hate to be that person, but vegetarianism.
Now please before you get out your pitchforks, I love meat, and I'm a hunter. I eat free range animals I hunt or my family personally farms, but I avoid factory meats like the plague (as they will likely be the cause of a new, devestating plague)
1) factory farm meats are pumped with antibiotics, leading to an increase in antibiotic resistance (thus the plague comment)
2) factory farming is one of the largest contributes to climate change, with the amount of land, processing, and "emissions" (both of the methane and co2 variety) needed to raise, process and distribute the meats.
3) factory farming is cruel to the animals. Like I said, I'm not opposed to eating meat, but you can't deny being forced to stand in one place your entire life while you have your friends ground up and fed to you, all why scientists drill holes into your stomach to let the gasses from your horrible diet escape so you don't explode is pretty fucking cruel.
My go to is be vegetarian/vegan as much as I can and only source my meats from earth concious and ethical sources.
Once again I don't want to be that guy, but something really needs to be done about the factory farming industry.
Edit: if you can absolutely not live without meat for one reason or another, I'm not telling you to quit cold turkey tomorrow, and I'm definitely not shaming you. I simply want to advocate for knowing WHERE your food was sourced from, HOW those animals were handled/treated and, WHY factory farming is so detrimental to the environment. If only a few people end up skipping meat a couple more times a week than they would have previously, or make the leap and try cutting it out, I've done my job posting on Reddit.
Side note, you also don't need to eat as much meat as people do in many western countries. I know everyone always wails where's the protein but honestly there are non meat protein sources and you don't need as much protein to eat it every day. Its also not like you have to try super hard to eat less meat. Just have a pasta with red sauce and no meat or a bean burrito. Its interesting to think how much food you can actually eat that doesn't revolve around meat. I personally still eat factory meat because i am lazy and don't know where to find other meat but I have 3ish meatless days per week with pretty much no effort.
Also I've noticed that my grocery budget stretches farther since I've been eating less meat
Honestly, the grocery budget alone was enough for me to make the final switch. You don't need fancy tofu or tempeh to eat mostly vegetarian! Beans, nuts and dark leafy greens are usually far less expensive and give you (most) of the nutrients you miss from meat.
Also, if you've got an Asian grocery store anywhere near you, you can pick up today and veggies for way fucking cheap. Like 75 cent big blocks of tofu!
What?! No way! I'm 51 and I JUST tried tofu for the first time weekend before last (I fried it up myself) and I loved it! But it's kind of expensive even at Walmart. But I have at least one Asian grocery store in my town. I'll have to check that out!
Really? For 500 grams my tofu is $2.79 Canadian. That is significantly cheaper than chicken breasts.
At least in my experience, which has mostly been in an area with a major city with a pretty big Asan immigrant population. I miss having two Asian groceries within ten minutes, it was great.
Thanks for the tip; I always forget to hit up Asian markets, even though they have the most meatless options for cheap!
It is insane how much money I save as a vegetarian. I wouldn't be surprised if my grocery bill was cut in half. Just basing it off protein intake the amount of protein I get from tofu is equivalent to a chicken breast. That you cost $1.30 and the chicken breast is around $5, maybe closer to $4 if you went to Costco. This is Canadian dollars.
I freaking love meat, but yeah, moving in this direction too. I'll probably never be full vegan, but the difference if I can cut my meat consumption in half, and make sure that in turn is sustainably, ethically raised meat, is huge. Yes, ecological meat is expensive, but I take more care, and throw away less, when I not only paid through the nose, but also got a small leaflet telling me I'm currently eating Sven the pig.
Oh I loved meat too. Ate more eggs and milk than most people around me. But then I started doing research on what "ethical" meat really meant.
Here's the question we have to ask ourselves: is there a humane, or compassionate, way to kill an animal who does not want to die when we can get our nutrition otherwise? Can "humane slaughter" even exist?
awesome response if your goal is to entice people to gravitate towards plant-based
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but is your argument "animals die in the process of growing crops, therefore there's no point is reducing meat consumption"? A large portion of corn that is grown is explicitly to feed meat animals on factory farms, so going along with your example, reducing the demand for factory farmed meat animals would reduce those potential corn-related deaths along with the thousands/millions of explicitly-slaughtered animals.
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Alright, good. I don't think anyone believes all suffering and industry related death can be prevented. Successfully achieving incremental change > giving up because absolute perfection isn't possible. :)
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I think it's counterproductive to do that. If your goal is to abolish slavery, you don't ask for longer chains.
10x more crops are harvested when eating animals than when eating these crops directly. Therefore, if you would want to minimize field animals killed, you would not pay for animal agriculture. This is because of basic biological inefficiency/thermodynamics: e.g. if you are a pig, even if you are killed at 6mo old, that's still 6 months of wheat/soy/legumes that are put into you. Only ~10% of those inputs remain in your body when you are killed and eaten.
It's not like vegans favour industrial farming and mass killing of field mice. If there is a better alternative, then we should absolutely adopt it. That doesn't make killing animals with the explicit purpose of eating them ethical. If you want to eat the mice killed during the farming process, be my guest.
Just a friendly reminder that pretty much every vegan once said "I'll probably never be fully vegan" :)
Oh, I know. Hopefully I'll be one of them :-)
There were some lovely plantation owners in the antebellum South who were actually very kind to their slaves, and only raped and killed the ones who otherwise got to live happy lives. They had their own names, too and were allowed to socialise sometimes.
Don't kid yourself you're doing some good by eating a pig with a name, meat is murder and there is no ethical justification, no matter how much money you pay to assuage your conscience.
Yeah, but you should know by now that while your argument is technically correct, it's also terrible. People have been conditioned not to feel the sort of empathy towards animals that your argument demands; by doing the classic moral superiority shtick, you're actually being counter-productive. When you berate people who have started on the path for not having made it to the destination yet, a lot of them will think "Ah fuck it" and just go back to being full-time meat-eaters, because that way they don't have to engage with the question and can avoid thinking about it at all. Now, I realize to you that sounds incredible, but again - almost all of us have been conditioned to cognitive dissonance when it comes to animals, so it's actually easier to "just eat meat" than to slowly start changing that behavior - but if I get screamed at by 20-year-olds who value their moral superiority more than actual animal lives every step of the way, I'm not going to bother.
For another real-life example of this phenomenon, see a certain type of Trump-voters.
I didn’t even mention my own eating habits, and I certainly don’t make my choices in order to feel superior. It is very hard not to feel disgust and outrage when all around you people are eating, abusing, and torturing their brethren for pleasure and economic gain. I believe that almost all of us ultimately are compassionate beings and don’t wish to cause suffering, but many are blind to what they do. The more we discuss it, the more able people will be to make choices that are in their own best interests and everyone else’s.
Yes, discussion is great. But if you let that disgust show without acknowledging the fact that most people don't share that disgust, since it's been conditioned out of us since birth, you'll just come off as sanctimonious and turn people off.
For people who have lived their whole life as meat-eaters, the cognitive dissonance involved in starting to see pigs and cows as more than meat is jarring, so most people who aren't teenagers move slowly and deliberately, one step at a time. They start feeling proud that they've managed to halve their meat consumption, realize how easy it was, and maybe... maybe... they shouldn't be eating meat..? Maybe they start interacting with vegetarians and vegans online, curious to know more...
If at that moment someone gets in their metaphorical face, and rather than acknowledging the hard work they've done and applauds the steps they've taken, and instead tells them they have no reason to be proud because they're murderers, then a lot of people are just gonna go "fuck it, it was easier back in the bubble", and order up a steak. Doesn't matter if that doesn't make sense to you, that's the way it is. So please, not for me, but for the sake of the animals - try to have empathy not just for them, but for the reluctant meat-eaters as well.
When talking about what people do, it isn’t about who they are, and it isn’t personal. If someone wants to feel personally criticised by a discussion of ethics online, it will be hard to stop them and that isn’t my business. Hurt feelings are simply a distraction (born of that cognitive dissonance to which you keep referring) when we’re talking about being born into slavery, imprisoned, force-fed, tortured and murdered.
Of course it's your business; if, as you say, you care about making a difference, rather than shouting about how right you are. The argument you just made is either incredibly naive or seriously callous, as you basically stated that it's more important that you're allowed to say what you want the way you want to, rather than that anyone listens to you.
This argument isn’t about us or our hurt feelings or feelings of superiority, it’s about the billions of others every day who are being killed. We need to think bigger than our little anthropocentric bubble. ‘Naïve’ and ‘callous’ are brilliant words for this discussion.
Yeah... but at the end of the day, at the reckoning... I'll have probably done more to reduce meat-eating in the world than you, if in fact you haven't managed to increase it. That you can't see that in your desire to be gloriously right is just sad. And if you CAN see it, and you don't care... then you're the one doing evil.
If you believe in good, evil and the day of reckoning, do you also believe in the Ten Commandments? What about the one about killing?
No I don't, just a turn of phrase. You're also equating animals with people, which I know you feel strongly about, and are probably chomping at the bit to rant about it since it's your 'thing', but if you haven't understood where you're going wrong by now I'm unlikely to change your mind, so let's just end it here. Just know you're a detriment to your own cause, and have a good day.
You started off a cunning troll but you gave the game away when you claimed to be saving lives by eating animals. Haha! Good game.
Analogously, a slave owner who freed half of his slaves can argue that he did more for reducing slavery in the world than an abolitionist ever did. Is that the type of correct you want to be? Because that's what you sound like when you audaciously claim that you are actually helping animals by murdering them.
Sigh. Grow up.
Not an argument.
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Do any of them really do anything to deserve being killed?
Being Nazis, duh
Even most actual Nazis were spared. They weren't even imprisoned.
Idk, them animals musta ducked up pretty bad some were along the line to get not only slaughtered but need, tortured, and then slaughtered. I guess Hitler is reincarnated as every chicken at the same time?
Ah, so that's where the expression "Nazi Pigs" comes from. For some reason I thought they were all communist.
some good self brainwashing you're doing there.
Why not face the reality, which is that you're eating an innocent animal that was treated (by the farmers, the industry, and you) as an object satisfying no need and only momentary pleasure?
You realize he was joking, right? Also, ask yourself if your type of argument leads to a single convert, or lots of people on the fence who'll just go "fuck it, gonna keep eating meat then" because you've annoyed the fuck out of them. You're doing more harm than good.
someone's going to keep harming innocent animals because "a vegan person was mean" to them?
somehow I don't think that's the case
At the end of the day, my language doesn't force you to pay to have animals stabbed in the throat.
I'll be over here eating grass or whatever
Scoff all you want, it's basic psychology; where do you think all the Trump-voters came from? People react badly to being told they're morally wrong, even if deep down they agree. It's easier to double down and just make yourself believe that maybe those do-gooders are actually just "virtue signalling", so you can go about your day the same as you always have - "we're made to eat meat", and so on.
You'd be better off telling people how to find their way onto the right path, rather than screaming at them for not already being at the destination. But hey, be counter-productive, no skin off my nose.
I’m not screaming at anyone.
I can share my disdain with knowledgeable people who knowingly support the animal ag industry without screaming.
Maybe you’re internalizing my words the wrong way. That’s how text works, and it’s the internet.
Go vegan.
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name calling
Stopped reading
So you commit immoral actions to spite people but cannot take responsibility for your own actions so much so that you have to blame her for your own murdering of a defenseless animal.
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I got that it was a joke, but I think their point was that you do not need to eat meat. You can get pretty much all the nutrients you need (just take a B12 supplement - animals don't naturally produce it anyway) from a plant-based diet.
i'm super calm bud
I never said you don't need to eat.
I actually do need to eat meat. I have a severe salicylate sensitivity and they are in basically all plants. I eat a carnivore diet because of this. Two years now. I was vegan before and it was killing me.
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Yeah, kill an animal because someone was mean to you on the internet. That makes sense.
What next, u gonna shoot up a school when your ~~boss~~ homeroom teacher is mean to you?
edit: adjusted phrase for correct age
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You paid for the animal to be killed, yes.
You’re just as guilty.
A man who pays a hitman to kill his wife is still a murderer.
scoffing at grammar on reddit
Lol k
—-
I wish you nothing but the best, as would the animals, if you weren’t busy having them slaughtered.
You seem like a guy who values his moral superiority more than the lives of animals.
If you haven't realized yet that it's possible to be right in such a way that you make other people rather be wrong, you have some growing up to do. People like you are literally the reason there aren't more vegetarians in the world.
So meat eaters are mindless zombies who base their decisions on which group of people was mean to them? They are incapable of thinking for themselves?
Don't willfully misinterpret me, it makes you seem stupid. You know perfectly well what I meant.
You're literally saying that. You're policing vegans for their "off-putting" tones but actual immoral actions are fine, right?
Oh, I'm sorry. Guess it wasn't willful. No, that's not what I'm saying. Try again.
Then what are you saying?
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You haven't presented a single argument as to why it's okay to murder animals needlessly other than saying "everybody does it".
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nice dodge, dodgey boy, but you're arguing semantics and you know it
you own a dog? u want someone to stab it in the throat for no reason other than "that's what my people do"?
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have a nice weekend
Yeah, a dictionary is the best place to learn ethics. Anyway multiple definitions exist for the same word. For example:
to slaughter wantonly
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Also, ethics are apparently completely subjective which is why various belief systems exist. Sorry to break that to you.
Yeah, that's why stoning of gays in Saudi Arabia is a completely valid belief system, right?
I'll leave you with this - why aren't the owners of slaughterhouses charged with murder?
The same reason most Nazis were spared or most slaver owners weren't prosecuted. Are you saying the laws are always objectively morally correct? All legal systems are equally valid no matter how heinous you might see them as?
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Did I say that?
You did say that. You said morality is subjective implying that every belief system is equally valid. If you actually don't think every belief system is equally valid, then you are suggesting there is an objective measure to judge the merits of a moral system. Therefore morals are objective.
Pick one,
A) moral beliefs are subjective and there's nothing wrong with Saudi stoning gays
B) moral beliefs are objective and killing animals needlessly is immoral.
You can't pick different things according to your own convenience.
No. I'm a lawyer and know better than that. On the other hand, I'm not insane enough to believe that hunting is murder. If you actually think that raising livestock tantamount to slavery, why aren't you out there beating down doors for the abolition of the cattle industry? Think of the absurdity that would ensue if hunting were a crime.
Again none of those things are arguments. Why is it okay to murder animals? What absurdity would ensue if hunting were criminalised?
Also, it's already heavily regulated.
Is slavery okay if we simply regulate it? If not, regulation doesn't make it morally justifiable.
Do we just co-exist and let them replicate without any natural predators?
No. We just don't breed them. Same as what we did with the stray dogs.
Is killing a rat the same as killing a cow?
No. What does that have anything to do with killing cows needlessly? You do understand that there are different degrees to immoral actions.
Many Nazis weren't spared.
Most were. And rightfully so. They were merely doing what everyone else was doing. They didn't have the power to disobey. Only the leaders were prosecuted.
We don't put people to the sword when they surrender because we aren't animals.
What? When did animals put people to sword after they surrendered? You are making zero sense.
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There you go again with that word. Hunting isn't murder. Murder is a defined term and it is the killing of another person, not an animal.
You're appealing to authority here. Just because the law doesn't recognise killing animals as murder doesn't mean I shouldn't. If I thought the law was just, we wouldn't be having this debate. The question being, why isn't it murder? Why does killing humans deserve a special term that animals don't qualify for?
We have over 3M people in US prisons. I guess we should send everyone to jail that isn't you.
Are you saying hunters don't care about the laws and will continue going on a murdering spree despite it being illegal? Criminal penalties can include fines too, not just imprisonment. Their weapons can be taken away.
Again, you start with a flawed premise. Owning an animal is not slavery. Do you have a cat or dog? Are you a slaveholder? C'mon now.
Owning an animal for use is slavery. That includes buying exotic breeds of cats and dogs. Cat and dog breeders are exploiting the reproductive systems of the animals for monetary gain. If you are just taking care of an animal from the shelter while making sure that they don't breed more animals into existence then a case for owning pets is to be made.
Please tell me you don't have a hard science degree. If you want to see what happens when a species is left unchecked to procreate without culling go read up on Easter Island.
Fix them. Don't let them procreate. It's not rocket science. Even if you have to cull them, it's no worse than the fates they're already destined for. Just don't breed more into existence. Most farm animals are killed when they're basically babies.
Killing rats is arguably more reprehensible under what I imagine your creed to be as they are pests, but are not eaten.
I don't agree with killing rats either. Your choice isn't between killing a rat and killing a cow. You choice is between killing a cow and not killing a cow. If you're talking about the rats killed in the fields, you're not reducing any of that by choosing to eat a cow instead. Cows are fed produce from the same field that killed those rats. And cows need a lot more of that produce than you would have needed if you had eaten it directly.
In fact, if everybody in the world went vegan, we would need to produce a lot less crops. So there would be more room for sustainable farming practices which would involve far fewer rats dying.
Do you have a hierarchy of animals?
Hierarchy of animals only matters if your choice is between killing animal A vs killing animal B. Not when your choice is between killing animal A vs not killing animal A.
While we are at it, you do know that animals hunt for fun right?
Yeah that's why we don't base our morals on how animals behave. Good thing, right?
Should animals be arrested for "murder" as well?
No, because animals have no clue it's wrong. They aren't capable of understanding it. If you had the supreme power and you could remove the carnivorous instincts from animals, would you do it? I know I would.
Humans have nothing to excuse their shitty behaviour.
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You clearly have the same mental capacity as an animal if you can't understand basic logic.
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Okay, dude. Maybe you'll also buy a couple of slaves because an abolitionist was mean to you.
Got 'em
crappy response if your goal is to entice people to gravitate towards plant-based
"face reality" is a crappy way to get people to face reality
got it
i'm not here to hold anyone's hand. Everyone can think for themselves
i agree with you wholeheartedly that people shouldn’t kill or eat animals. but before you take on the tone of a crazed ‘holier-than-thou’ “typical” herbivore, which im guessing you’re really probably not, consider the real goal here.
I never said I was better than anyone else.
However, knowing fully well what happens to animals behind closed doors, and still choosing to support it financially is a sign of selfishness and a weak moral compass.
I am no holy figure, but at least I’m morally consistent in my thoughts and actions.
You're missing the point. It is perfectly possible to be right, but still be right in such a way that you make it easier for other people to be wrong. You're Hillary Clinton screaming about deplorables.
The whole of western society has been taught to have cognitive dissonance when it comes to meat; it is easy for most people to not think about it. You ranting at people who are just starting to move away from that is counter-productive, as lots will just go "fuck it, thinking about this is too much work with assholes like this around".
At a certain point you have to ask yourself if you love the moral superiority of being right more than animals, if your behavior is clearly driving people taking the first steps back into ignorance.
nah ppl can think for themselves.
Uh... that's a bit naive. Are you completely denying that psychology is a thing, and that people sometimes react not solely based on rational thoughts and facts?
Don't hate to be that person, this is an obvious response.
While I understand vegetarianism is strangely stigmatized, being ashamed of eating less meat is like being ashamed of using your turn signal.
The thing though is that these things are things. Society subtly collectively tends to agree that one of the ultimate evils is "being a buzzkill." Anything perceived as judgemental of someone indulging and "just living their life" is turned around on the one not doing it.
That's a good way to put it. I think as a society we need to get over that.
Good luck with that. Its one of the most deeply ingrained biases.
For sure but if we don't stop growing in population we'll simply have to due to the massive land usage in animal agriculture compared to plant agriculture.
it's kind of ridiculous that it isn't the number one response because I feel like it's a weightier ethical situation than saying please and thank you.
People are coming around. Years ago this would've never been updated on reddit in a default. Now there are multiple threads upvoted in this post about it.
My bet is 200 years and the whole world is vegan
Don’t be ashamed to be “that” person. We need to break the stigma of veganism being “annoying” etc
I’d offer way more than one up vote if I could.
I was looking for someone to say this. Such a stigma unfortunately but ethically it’s win win win for plants, planet and health.
I'm a hunter in week three of Sudden Onset Vegetarianism and you are what I aspire to be, thanks for being visible and encouraging others!
Thank you so much!
A good article: https://www.aspca.org/animal-cruelty/farm-animal-welfare
99% of animals live in factory farms.
The meat industry destroying the rainforest is why countries are having serious water problems.
can't believe this one isn't higher. I'm not vegetarian, but its something I'm working towards. There are so many ethical issues surrounding our current meat production systems.
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Beyond is great but smells terrible. Have to eat that shit fast cuz it stinks up the fridge
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That could explain it lol. Still tastes good. I never read the instructions
You can do it!
Here's a free resource for getting started if you want a 22 day "trial run." They give you a personal mentor, nutritionist, recipes, and so on so that you can see if you like it. :)
I agree with you so much, but why stop at meat? People are so clueless as to where their food comes from. Mega farms of corn, soybeans, etc. are just ad culpable to climate change as meat producers. Just know where your food comes from. Be aware of what you put into your body.
Definitely! I just understand giving up meat is a HUGE first step to people! It was giving up meat that really allowed me to focus on what goes in my body.
That definitely does it for some people. For me, it was realizing how many fruits and veggies I was eating out of season, which led me to realize I was creating a huge carbon footprint by contributing to the import of crops from the southern hemisphere.
All those crops are food for livestock though, that's why theyre grown. So it actually all leads back to meat consumption. Cutting meat consumption globally in half at least is the answer.
globally
Sorry, it's mostly a western hemisphere problem.
Also, OP handles this in a great way. You come across as another annoying nagger who makes people want to eat more meat just to spite you.
"Hey, cow, I want your life to end even more now that someone on the internet annoyed me!"
Which would be very unethical and counter to this entire thread.
People have too much spite when they're proven wrong smh
Absolutely! Large scale cropping has a whole suite of terrible environmental impacts, as does large scale animal farming. Working in the environmental field, I've seen a lot of these first hand.
If your purpose is to have less of an environmental impact, as opposed to being concerned about ethical treatment of animlas, then you are better off aiming for environmentally sustainable sources of food - e.g. locally (or home) grown, small scale producers.
It's kinda sad you have to preface everything you're saying with "not wanting to be that guy." Like, pushing for people to eat less meat is the worst thing in the fucking world. I get that the internet loves bacon and what not, but everything you said is correct. The meat industry is horrible, especially factory farming, and most people either don't care or have to remain willfully ignorant so they can keep their diet the same. Just sad.
THIS.
The fact that you feel like you have to qualify your response by saying “I don’t want to be that guy” is a sad statement about society. This is the obvious answer to the question this thread poses.
Vegetables are hundreds of times more efficient to produce than meat.
Crops don’t shit in rivers.
We don’t need to over-fish the ocean to grow soybeans.
Cornfields don’t fart out methane and endanger our atmosphere.
We don’t cut down the rainforest for more land for our tomatoes to graze.
If you want to have a big impact on the world, going vegetarian is one of the best ways to do it.
That's why I really wanted to explain my answer (other commenters in this thread have said vegetarianism/veganism), there's a stigma around it to where if you choose to abstain from meat, you're some kind of Peta supporting, red paint throwing, anti-human hippie. I'm none of those things! I just want to be concious about what we are doing to the earth and what I put in my body (not to mention I'm allergic to a lot of antibiotics, so factory farmed meat is always a gamble for me)
And all the farm animals are fed a vegetarian diet that consists of food on a different farm being grown to feed those cows. So two farms for one item of food.
Also plants aren't conscious and don't scream in pain
lab grown meat will soon be a mainstream thing.
Fingers crossed!!!
It's a bit saddening that we have to invent meat in a new way to prevent trillions of animal deaths as opposed to just eating plants instead.
That said it will have a huge impact on the lives of the animals - which is what really matters.
Which is great but like....why? There are meat alternatives that taste very close to the actual thing, are healthier, and no animals died to make it. Why not just prop up that sort of industry?
No animals die to make lab-grown meat either. The reality is that the vast majority of people will not stop eating meat entirely. The meat alternatives might be close-ish to replicating the flavour and texture of the real thing, but not near close enough to sway anyone who isn't already on board due to the ethical/environmental reasons.
A full-fledged lab-grown meat industry will do vastly more to reduce the amount of factory-farmed meat consumed than meat alternatives ever will.
Animals actually do die for lab meat, unfortunately. They use the blood of fetal cows, so 2 cows die each time and it's actually pretty awful.
If you want to eat living things, theres no way to do so with a completely clear conscience.
From this article about lab-grown meat:
The process starts with a few ‘satellite’ cells, which can be obtained from a small sample of muscle taken from a live animal. These are stem cells that can turn into the different cells found in muscle. Just one cell could, in theory, be used to grow an infinite amount of meat.
Assuming the article is correct, there is no need to kill animals for this. It doesn't specify how they remove the tissue, so I'll grant that there may be some amount of pain involved for the animal the tissue sample comes from.
Regardless, if your goal is truly to reduce the amount of animal suffering due to meat consumption, please consider which of the options is more practical: convincing 100% of the population to make informed, ethical choices that will allow them to have a completely clear conscience, or providing them with a form of meat that tastes exactly the same, but results in exponentially less animal suffering?
Another issue is the nutrient-rich ‘serum’ that feeds the cells. Successful serums have been a cocktail of sugars, amino acids and animal blood.
From the same article. The serum they use is made with blood. The main ingredient is Fetal Bovine Serum, which is extracted from fetal cows by draining them of all their blood with a huge needle to the heart (they are alive during this process). And the mother is slaugthered before they harvest the fetus. Like I said, if you want to use a living animal's body, you can never truly do it guilt free. At the end of the day, its just not right. Lab meat is nowhere near ethical or ready. It should be a footnote in these conversations.
As I've said before on reddit: I wish "crazy vegans" made this shit up, its awful and I wish it wasn't true.
He and other cultured meat companies are working on blood-free alternatives – but it’s not simple. “We are working out which substances in blood are required for growth,” he says. “There are tens of thousands of different substances in blood and there are a few magical ingredients required for every different cell type.”
Ethical and lab grown meat will not be happening anytime soon, so its not even an option that's on the table . It's kind of a cop out to say that you will change habits when it requires literally no effort and it's happening sometime in the distant future.
What happens in the meantime? We just continue the violence and destruction of our planet until lab meat comes out in 10 years? Its not a solution. The world eating plant based at this point actually is something that will help now, so its definitely a practical solution.
As to your last point, living a vegan lifestyle is about reducing animal suffering as best you can, because in this world its impossible to avoid it completely. However, the end goal is stop all of the killing once and for all. So, personally I want to both reduce suffering and I want animal farming to end. I don't think the state of lab grown meat is acceptable in any way at the moment. Hand waving all the arguments against animal agriculture away with a promise to help "one day" in the distant future is not helpful to vegans, environmentalists, animals, or the planet in any way.
Edit: to be clear, Im not directing criticism at you. I'm talking about the attitude people have in general when it comes to lab grown meat, it gives the public a sense that everything is okay and they can continue eating meat. Thats not reality, and the sooner people understand that the sooner progress can actually happen.
Source? They use stem cells. Hence, no dead cows.
Its the fluid medium for growing the cells that require animal deaths. Which they are having a lot of trouble finding an alternative to.
Edit: https://www.google.com/amp/amp.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2017/07/why_is_fetal_cow_blood_used_to_grow_fake_meat.html
Also, if you google the top hit is literally fetal bovine serum for sale.
But animals die to harvest plants too, so the relatively small amount in this case is not really relevant.
Intentionally killing an animal, and accidentally having collateral damage while doing something non-violent are nowhere near similar.
My girlfriend is vegetarian, so I get the opportunity to try quite a lot of vegetarian/vegan dishes. I have only maybe two or three times eaten a dish with a substitute meat that actually tastes indistinguishable from the real thing.
The reality is that meat just tastes fuckin good. I want to have it somehow, so lab grown meat is a great solution! Is it inconceivable to you that some people want to vary their diets and make more ethical choices?
I can tell you are compassionate because of all the references you are making to welfare-- I was right there with you for years.
But here's the question we have to ask ourselves: is there a humane, or compassionate, way to kill an animal who does not want to die when we can get our nutrition otherwise? Can "humane slaughter" even exist?
Wait for it to die of a natural cause? Or like roadkill, accidental death
Yes, there is no injustice from eating animals that die from natural causes. Ethically there are no direct concers, but practically you'd have some problems:
Health risks
What happens if you're offered non-natural-death animal flesh? You would restrict yourself to being vegan except when encountering naturally-dead animals. Personally, I think this would be significantly more effort, as you could much more easily just have plant-based meats. Not to mention, by going full vegan, you'd also be able to contribute to the social change and reverse the normalization of animal cruelty.
So, yes, there are no ethical concerns with that approach. However, it's a lot more effort when you could easily just be eating the extremely diverse range of plant-based versions.
It's the omnivore struggle isn't it? I see it as, if the animal has a long fulfilling life, we can justify killing it (thus why I am not opposed to hunting. Some are further rooted in these beliefs than I am, I definitely do not like the idea of killing animals, and try to make sure at least the animal was properly cared for before it was sacrificed to the human race. The fact is, there is always prey and always a predator, prey will over graze and destroy wildlife if not culled and predators will overhunt if they do not regulate their population or food sources. Nature is a balance.
Preliminary edit: I apologize, I went a bit long...
Lions, tigers, and such are biological carnivores. That is, unlike our digestive systems, their digestive systems cannot attain full nutrition from plants. In other words, biological carnivores have no choice but to eat other animals.
Humans, on the other hand, have no biological need to eat animals: all nutrients found in animal products came from the plants we fed the animals (grains, soy, legumes), which we can just eat ourselves.
Another thing to consider: do animals consent to being killed? Here's the question to ask: if the animal had a choice, would he or she choose to be killed or to live? We may view killing it as a sacrifice, but would it agree with that sentiment? Does it value the temporary pleasure of some third party (if it is even aware of it) over its own life?
They are fully conscious individuals -- with brains, nervous systems, ears, eyes, etc. Hence, when all animals arrive at that same slaugherhouse (unaffected by what kind of farm they were raised in) at the same age, they can sense they are going to be killed -- both in hearing the screams and smelling the scent of death and fear coming from the slaughterhouse. Slaughterhouse workers have empirically found that animals never get off the slaughter trucks willingly for this reason, meaning they have to be forced off.
Even if animals were killed painlessly, would that mean they have any less moral value? If I went around killing people in their sleep, could I tell the judge, "Your Honor, I killed them when they were unconscious, therefore they did not suffer"? Regardless of whether the victim feels pain, is taking the victim's one life not the worst possible harm you can inflict on it? Do non-human animals want to live their one life any less than humans, and should we be the ones making that decision for them?
I can tell you are a compassionate person because of how you speak of welfare. But to see this situation holistically, one must put him/herself in the position of the victim for a moment: you have lived a good life (at least in freedom without being tortured daily). Does that mean that you would be okay with being killed right now, or any other arbitrary date set at your birth?
If eating animals is unnecessary, and if you agree that animal cruelty is wrong, then how do we justify eating animals?
1) 150% with you on slaughterhouses
I'm mostly arguing advocating hunting, but not necessarily cattle/livestock as a whole. We, as vegan/vegetarians will likely not bring every single person to our same understanding of animal welfare, and as such I am advocating a "mostly" vegetarian diet with the exception of free range/hunted.
Though I will say hunting varies on your local on whether I'm good with it. Where I live, deer and elk are severely overpopulated and reeking havoc on plant life. This of course, is also human fault as, the wolves from the area are extinct. I hunt to fill the niche as predator for the eco system (and really I don't do the killing while hunting, I can't stomach it personally, but my family are a bunch of rednecks). That is completely different in my view than hunting for sport.
All meat I do happen to consume is hunted meat, with the exception of when my parents force in of their cows on me, I'm not going to say no and let it's death be for nothing.
2) I do really appreciate your advocacy for animal welfare, I just know personally that this specific argument is one that turns people off to vegan/vegetarians, offering other valid reasons is a good way to indirectly advocate for animal welfare
You claim that hunting for sport and hunting for taste are not the same. Is there any difference for the animal, however? In either case, the animal dies for a non-essential reason.
As for food that you reject going to waste, there are two things to consider. First, does it make a difference to the animal whether or not you eat it after you've killed it? Again, in its eyes, either a justification of taste and no justification is non-essential and therefore unnecessary.
Secondly, by refusing to eat animals, you can create social change. If you eat animals killed by your family, you are essentially saying that killing for taste is okay. Remember, while veganism does reduce the demand for animal products, the other major effect is social change away from animal abuse.
As it is now, my family are sustainable farmers who make a living off of their produce, and as much as I would love to see the days of cattle completely end, I do also have to consider my family. I'm sorry if I'm not extreme enough for you, but at the very least I am doing my part to end factory farming, you should be advocating likewise.
Of course I support you in caring for your family.
Just so I can understand you, though, what harm comes to your family if you alone eat something else? I'm not really advocating for anything radical here like protesting your family. Your diet is your choice and your responsibility-- while eating something else may ruffle some feathers, I don't see how what you eat would harm your family.
You got him there, gg
Agreed. I’ve wanted to cut back on meat and now I’m to the point where I feel guilty eating meat but I wind up eating it when it’s in front of me. I want to stop but when husband orders chicken on a pizza I’m still going to eat it. Ugh. I wish meat would just disappear. Be so much easier.
Be proud to be that guy.
In the case of hunting, especially deer. Responsible hunting practices are actually good for deer and stop them from having huge explosions in population followed by a swift die off by starvation that kills many deer, but also destroys the environment they were in as all their sources get eaten. There's a reason people call them rats with hooves.
And If you actually use the right kind of weapon and get a reasonably clean kill then you actually don't cause the animal anywhere near the amount of suffering as I'm a factory farm.
I mentioned this in another comment where someone asked me why I was a hunter. My basic response is:
I live where wolves used to live before they were hunted to extinction, and as such deer and elk have extremely high populations. Responsible and tagged hunting is a way to fill the niche left by wolves and keep the prey population in check.
I love how you presented your thoughts without being that guy. It actually made me truly think and consider your comment whereas someone being THAT GUY would be very off-putting!
There's a that guy in the comment chain. I just want to advocate eating less meat, being concious of your sources of foods and their sustainability and earth friendliness. In my mind, meat consumption in America would be more along the lines of "for dinner only" or "3-5x a week" instead of an "every single meal" diet we have now. It's more healthy for us, the animals and the earth. Not everyone has the ability or dedication it takes to be 100% vegan or vegetarian, but if most people just ate less there would be less need for factory farming and all the other stuff I griped about.
My family was all about MEAT. It has been so easy to just gradually reduce the meat in our meals by adding rice, beans, salads, etc. Dishes where meat was supposedly important taste fine now without it.
I just made a huge pot of vegetarian chili and had some shredded pork as a topping for people who feel they needed meat. Most of the pork is left over because chili tastes great even without the meat.
My family is all hunters and farmers, so I know what you mean by your family being all about meat!
I agree! But I hate that there is such a stigma to it that somebody may be branded as "that guy" for even suggesting it. People really need to open their minds (and stop circlejerking about bacon and hating vegans).
Totally! I only said "that guy" because I expected a torrid of downvotes mentioning the fact that I'm (mostly) vegetarian (honestly meat is not nearly a staple in my diet, and something I have very rarely if I can get it through family). The support and affirmation is wonderful to see here on Reddit!
It's also important to be vegan, not vegetarian.
Yeah if you're vegetarian you're not eating animals, but you still contribute to their suffering. The milk, cheese, eggs etc of the animals that meat eaters eat go to you, too. So you're still contributing to animal suffering.
Edit: when I say "you," I am addressing vegetarians, not necessarily OP.
I'm lactose intolerant actually, so the dairy products are naturally struck out for me personally! I 100% agree with you, but cutting out meat is a huge first step for a lot of people. My uncle has chickens where I supply my eggs from, but I am very fourtunate to live in an area with the ability to grow and sustain our own foods.
it's important to be a flexitarian and it's important to be a vegetarian. I'd rather someone did as much as they could instead of nothing at all because the bar was set to "vegan".
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Oh boy so many vegans were angry when I mentioned this. There was a discussion about meat and why they thought people saw vegan as a bad thing. They talked about large industries and advertising and then asked for thoughts and opinions.
I said this is my personal opinion only but in short it was basically what you and the following person said. Everyone who didn't agree or said something different than the OP was down voted or talked down upon.
If we use the definition on the vegan society website, then someone doing as much as they can regarding reducing suffering and exploitation to animals is technically a vegan.
"Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism
Therefore, everyone should always be aiming towards being a vegan. We should only be encouraging flexitarian or vegetarian if they are a temporary transition phase.
The 'vegan or nothing' attitude is, at best, utterly useless for the ethical eating movement. If someone tries to make limited ethical changes to their diet like reducing meat consumption, switching to lab grown options, or cutting meat entirely, insisting that their efforts only really count if they go all in can only discourage them.
To use an admittedly heavy-handed analogy, it's like a pro-life advocate that's also against accessible, low cost birth control. You can push for the more unrealistic goal of eliminating meat consumption entirely, but you'll make much more progress when you encourage people to take smaller steps and reduce the demand for it.
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Honestly curious, what is extreme about not eating animals, vs eating animals (think of the animal torture videos, because eating animals funds that).
I never said to drill it in to them tho.
Also there are tons of convincing, delicious, healthier meat substitutes.
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You're right. I've had previous negative experiences with ~~vegans~~ black people and saw similarities in your message, ended up jumping to negative presumptuous conclusions
You see how bad that sounds now?
We're all people, dawg. Thx 4 owning up to your misjudgments.
Right, the persecution of vegans is right up there with black people. Might want to chill with the false equivalencies
Analogy =/= equivalence.
sigh another person who thinks that comparison between justifications and language means that the 2 actual objects are being compared.
not comparing the plight of the black man to the plight of a vegan, only showing the similarity they have: human nature
might wanna think things through b4 typing
Vegan is way too extreme
Not paying for the suffering and death of over a billion animals every week is extreme?
Not paying to destroy the planet is extreme?
Avoiding health issues that are completely avoidable (heart disease, diabetes) is extreme?
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Is it extreme to you?
doesn't understand what a straw man is, or my comparison
k
veganism is extreme even though it's not
alright
Yes, have you met people?? Some people don't give a fuck about anything other than their life and what's happening to them currently.
There are people who won't even take care of their own children or pets and you're surprised?
21.3k people upvoted this thread. 21.3k people give a fuck about something.
Ok? That's not all just some, just like I mentioned some people don't care.
I mean, vegans contribute to it too. Just more indirectly. Animals are still harmed in plant production. Just less.
animals are fed way more vegetables than humans could ever eat, so...
The point still stands. To live you have to deny life to other animals - veganism is better than vegetarianism but it's not some magical point of zero impact.
the life you think we'd deny is life that is brought into this world forcibly and cut short for unnecessary consumption
Billions of lives per week that shouldn't be.
Vegans still have an impact, but the point is to reduce harm where possible.
You don't need to eat meat, so there's no reason to continue it.
"I like the taste" is not a morally justifiable reason to kill a sentient being.
the life you think we'd deny is life that is brought into this world forcibly and cut short for unnecessary consumption
Not sure what you mean here, sorry. I'm talking about denying life to wild animals, not farm animals. To stay alive you have to use resources that other animals could have used to live instead.
I already agreed that veganism is better than vegetarianism, and of course both are better than eating meat. My point was that veganism should be seen as having less impact, but not zero impact (or even the minimum possible impact). It's more a philosophical point than a practical one that I'm making.
Yes, we live, therefore we have impact.
The point I'm trying to make is that there's no reason not to go vegan that isn't completely selfish and to some degree morally unjust.
Go vegan.
Are you even reading my posts? I support veganism.
I think there's a happy medium though. If you get your eggs from free range chickens (not cage free, but certified free range) - then there is nothing wrong with it.
What do you think happens to the male chicks that are unable to lay eggs?
Or the fact that usual after a few years they send the egg-laying hens to be slaughtered!
The middle ground fallacy. A classic attempt to solve a problem made by people that don't have a problem with compromising their own ethics.
Happy reminder of what happens to all the male chicks born in the egg indutry. Also happy reminder that this is done in certified free range happy rainbow farms too.
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Food deserts are absolutely a huge problem! One that definitely needs to be addressed. My hopes in a factory farm free future would be to see all the resources we previously had directed to the production of meat, would be allocated elsewhere in a sustainable way to help everyone receive wholesome, environmentally friendly foods.
Well first of all I'm not gonna give up meat, just straight up being honest about that. I feel like a lot of problems with killing animals can still persist in terms of pesticides, poisons and shooting to protect crops etc. As little as you like to hear it most farmers will shoot (or would shoot if they could get away with it) your dog if it ventured into a field of sheep, they'd do the same if your dog dug up potatoes. They'll spray pesticides and they'll put out poison and they'll shoot anything that feed off of their products because their defending their livelihood so that ethically sourced food is much more important than whether it's necessarily vegetarian or not.
Things are probably different in America and other countries but I live In Ireland, and as far as I'm aware there aren't any factory beef farms (chickens might be a different story, I haven't looked it up). The biggest problem with cows is their huge impact on the environment because of their gas so I'm not against vegetarian diets at all, after all another food we love is potatoes which are incredibly easy to grow and ethically very positive as far as food goes. While we haven't been successful with growing them ourselves (due to slugs), growing potatoes is a great way to be more environmentally conscious
I feel like a lot of problems with killing animals can still persist in terms of pesticides, poisons and shooting to protect crops etc.
These problems will still be around but they will be much reduced. Raising animals for meat actually requires more plant crops than if humans just ate plants directly.
In Ireland cows are grass fed in fields as much as possible, for up to 300 days of the year (depending on weather etc.), So at least theyre living stress free, Ireland on consumes 10% of it's beef, the other 90% is exported, and on top of that 100 or so thousand cows are exported to other countries alive... So it's a huge business, like I'm pretty sure you can get Kerry gold butter in America. All I'm saying is that not every cow grew up starved from living a full life. seemingly just American ones. Whole I'm not a farmer myself, I live in rural Ireland, so I can tell you first hand that the cows in the fields surrounding me are fine, healthy and in good form
Also i tried looked up how many crops we import and what they go towards but those statistics have been buried by farmers complaining about the quality of what we're importing, it seems like Ireland does have the capacity to produce the crops however it's expensive, the term they used in the article was high input high output
Even just eating meat one or two nights less a week would make a profound difference on a large scale.
If people are just too stubborn, preferential to meat, don't give a fuck, or whatever else.. fine. Just have it one or two less times a week, that's all, and it will help.
You shouldn't hate to be that person. But I know that's just a pre-cursor to stop idiots downvoting the post. So good on you for spreading the good message.
I'm glad that this has come up several times itt, and that the responses are overwhelmingly positive. We need to cut down (not stop, cut down) on our meat consumption.
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I am not against farming and cattle as a whole. Factory farming is an entirely different animal so to speak. This is why I advocate meat as a delicacy if you can source it correctly. Avoiding factory farming should be the #1 priority, not necessarily all meat. If we could shift the idea to "3 times a week" instead of "at every meal" I think the world would benefit IMMENSELY.
Also, it helps to shift how it is seen in meals. There are people who basically think meals are meat with a little bit of vegetables. When in reality even without a meal lacking meat you can reduce consumption heavily by treating the core of the meals as vegetables with a small amount of meat.
That's a good observation. I think many (of course not all) vegans/vegetarians would rather a species naturally (read: not due to human intervention) die out than have millions of them bred just to be slaughtered. Sure, they're alive, but what quality of life is it for them? Preferably we'd live and let live so no one would die out but that just isn't how things work, at least not right now. :/
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The grey wolf has been removed from the ecosystem where I live and as such, deer and elk populations have skyrocketed. As anyone with an ecological understanding knows, removing a predator from an eco system can be devestating for plant life (leads to over grazing in prey animals). I feel that by responsibly hunting (following tag procedure and hunting during established seasons) I am taking the niche of the predator in my ecosystem and effectively culling prey populations.
So interesting! I have a few old colleagues that hunt, but never for the reasons you mentioned, thanks for sharing and keep up the good work!
Problem is as far as my 17 year old experience has shown is that ethical and earth-conscious meats aren't everywhere and aren't easy to find. Aren't they more costly too?
I am very lucky that my uncle keeps cows and chickens and I and my whole family hunts, thus why I am able to keep meat in my diet in good concious. Some may find it harder to source meats and may have to bite the bullet and treat meat as a delicacy, not a staple.
Edit: it is also absolutely not more expensive, to supplement my protein I eat beans and nuts/legumes, my grocery bill has gone way down since eliminating store baught meat.
I was asking if buying this more conscious meat is more expensive than buying ordinary factory farm meat from, say, WalMart. As for me and others , I don't hunt so I can't have my meat like you could, and I can't exactly source my own meat even if I was living alone and employed with a decent job. It's not entirely possible where I live.
I definitely understand that this isn't possibly for everyone, and yes "organic free range" meats are more expensive. But then there is the question, is meat even necessary? I argue no, thus my previous comment.
Ah, right. I mean, I know there are negative health consequences to having too much meat in your diet. However, meat is tasty, I enjoy a hamburger or turkey or chicken etc etc, so I will continue to eat it every now and then because of that.
There's no denying, nothing tastes better than the real thing. An unfortunate fact of life is our tastebuds go nuts for umami. I have a hard time resisting it too.
Make good substitutes for meat and I will switch. I have tried mushroom and bean burgers and they taste like garbage.
There are some pretty excellent options out there. Have you ever tried anything by Beyond Meat? They Beyond Burger is a hit even to non-vegans/vegetarians and it is made from pea protein. I really enjoy their grilled "chicken" strips too!
Another thing to consider is that your palate will change with time. I grew up in Wisconsin where we love meat and cheese and I never thought I could do it, but I really don't miss it at all. I get the rare craving for some cheddar but that's about it.
Regardless, it's awesome that you tried alternatives!
I've had some seriously amazing portobello burgers before. Maybe you could try a new product or give it a shot making it yourself?
I've tried both. I really don't like mushrooms honestly.
I like veggies and fruit but I also really love burgers and steak.
Oh I understand. Have you tried making black bean burgers with plenty of spices? I find that those are really good too. However, I haven't really loved many of the store-bought varieties.
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Willpower to eat food I don't like? Seriously?
If you have even a small patch of soil available to you, you should grow some bee-friendly plants in it. It takes all of an hour to tear up the soil and plant some seeds (or even just a young seedling plant), and there's a bee-friendly plant for basically every climate.
Protip: If you're brand new or just afraid you'll suck at it, grow mint or alfalfa. They're hardy as hell, and anything short of full-on winter or flooding won't kill your plants. You can also plant marigolds; they're hardy and they repel most non-honeybees.
Mint is super easy to grow. Also a very stubborn plant that will spread more each year so be aware of this when figuring out where to plant it or plant it in a pot or something to contain it. But putting that aside, it’s easy to grow, animals aren’t as interested in eating it, it smells nice, and the purple flowers are pretty. And I suppose you could eat the leaves too if you want. I did not know bees especially like it!
Bees love mint flowers, and the mint oil (which bees avoid thanks to their hairy legs) is an irritant to most flying life, including the waxy moths that sometimes destroy honeybee colonies with their larvae.
Thanks for the info!
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Bees generally put their hive high enough off the ground that your dog shouldn't be able to stick its nose in there. Gotta avoid other predators, after all. Individual bees shouldn't be a problem; even if your dog gets stung once or twice by snapping at them, they'll learn the lesson pretty quickly.
Eat less meat.
Tell the truth. Or at least don't lie.
I'd add, "and do it as kindly as possible". But yeah man, I was specifically looking for this. I've come to a point where I second guess almost everyone's words, I really want to be able to believe someone, especially those I care about, but dang, the truth is a precious commodity that seems to be hard to come by.
I’ve never lied.
This is a really hard one for people and I understand. I don't want to come off as a douche either, but try eating less meat. My girlfriend is a vegetarian but I still eat meat, but I don't eat it for every meal. In fact, I rarely eat meat and I can say it doesn't affect me much anymore. I'm not say going full veg, but make it a luxury for yourself. Do it every other night or something. Your life though, so your choice.
It's sad that we have to preface "I don't want to come off as a douche" before suggesting a dietary change that involves eating fewer animal-derived products. It's a standard that doesn't hold for people suggesting other dietary changes. I don't see people saying "I don't want to come off as a douche but you should try [keto/low-carb/paleo/whatever fad diet of the season is]."
I'm not X, but here I gooooooooo
veganism
nah fuck that
It's true though
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You don't get it being able to say you cleared tilted gets bitches wet
I prefer Haunted Hills or anything in that area. Have a decent winrate too.
I prefer Pumpkin Hill, but can never find the last emerald.
I prefer Blumpkin Hill, but can never find the toilet
Shifty has always had a special place in my heart
Always go to Pleasant Park
Unfortunately, for those of us that want high kill games, we are forced to go.
Shifty shafts is always a good time.
Dusty Depot my dude
Ew
Sure, if you hate loot
Any love for the prison out there?
Quit eating shit food that makes us all fat and sick.
But Pringles come in like thirty goddamn flavors now!
Thirty flavors but only sour cream and onion matters.
I like BBQ and pizza, personally.
Like together? Mixing flavors cause that's awesome.
No, I just meant in general. But I'll have to try them at the same time soon, it could be good.
End corn subsidies that make corn cheaper than dirt. If corn derivatives weren't so cheap to add to foods, they might not be overused the way they are now.
Animal products in particular
You know, people love to say this, but I'm not sure how many actually consider the number of products (NOT just food products) we consume on a regular basis that contain some semblance of animal byproduct. For example, car and bike tires, glues used in woodwork and instruments, fabric softeners, shampoo/conditioner, toothpaste, condoms, nail polish, and even the plastic and rubber components in computers all contain animal products. It's pretty impossible to avoid using, or in some way consuming, items that use some form of animal product.
Thats a good point, but as are technology advance we usually develop synthetic materials that are superior to the animal products, Elmers glue, and most other glues are completely synthetic. Petroleum technically contains animal products, but it's not an animal rights issue because those animals died thousands of years ago and we're simply harvesting what happened before human intervention. It does have a nasty enviromental impact, so I try to reduce my use/ look for alternatives.
Well but you can at least take animal products out of your diet/nutrition and clothes.
That's a purely self-interested decision. It's not an ethical obligation.
Not necessarily, because over-processed foods that are bad for your health tend to have other bad effects such as
Waste (wrappers, plastic containers, plastic lids, etc.)
Payments falling on the state if you can't pay for medical bills.
This is unfounded, but food processing plants releasing toxic chemicals into environment.
Also, health insurance is more expensive for everyone else due to more people needing procedures which wouldn't be necessary if folks just ate better.
I knew there was something else I was forgetting
its a primarily self-interested decision with massive positive externalities (more productive society, lower medical expenditure, less demand for corn products).
That's true.
Eat less meat
Eat no meat.
tell that to my cheating girlfriend...
Eat no animal products
[deleted]
Eat nothing that casts a shadow
Nah
That's gonna be a no for me dawg.
Choices != justification
Y'all just expect me to know what your fancy book learning means?
By that I meant just because you have a choice to do something, doesn't mean that choice justifies the action.
Just because you think you're smarter than other people doesn't mean you are.
I never implied that I was smarter than anyone else. I apologize for not using a more common symbol (e.g. ≠), but I was in a bit of a hurry.
I'm not perfect, but I do my best not to impose my beliefs on others, non-human animals and humans alike. I'd be willing to listen if you would like to share your perspective.
Aw man I was being a jerk but now I see you're a reasonable person I feel bad. I just tired of the condescension that is rampart around this site. As far as meat eating goes, me and my gf have tried to cut back and have at least one night a week where we make a fully veg dish. Last night was roasted vegetable quesadillas and they are fully legit.
Using a drying rack in nice weather instead of the drying machine. I think most Americans are too prudish to hang their clothes out to dry bc they don’t want the neighbors to see their delicates but it’s environmentally friendly and cheaper if you don’t have to run the machine or go somewhere and pay for the drying service.
Doubt it's a prudish thing, more a convenience thing
Fair point, it's easier to just throw it into the dryer. I've also had foreign friends comment how they've hung their clothes out on the deck or patio to dry and the neighbors are shocked b/c they can see their underwear lolol.
Also it better for your clothes in the long run. Less wear and tear cause by tumbling in the dryer.
Veganism. It's good for the planet, animals, and you.
If you don’t want to go vegan, at least go more plant based. :) Just start by substituting meats for other vegetable proteins (or faux meats) half the time, and pick up almond milk instead of regular. Take it from there.
Almond milk is pretty bad for the environment tho
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Especially the ones that are to "promote democracy in corrupted foreign governments" but it really just turns into "US funded foreign dictatorship hell." Look into Argentina and Guatemala for examples. Also NAFTA is pretty fucked. If y'all saw how those people lived making products that they could never afford in their lifetime, it'll make you cry.
That's why we have so many Mexican politicians fighting to get rid of NAFTA... Oh wait, Mexicans are the most pro-NAFTA of all the countries involved in the trade deal.
Even people who are working awful jobs would rather that they actually get paid well for it. And trade with America and other countries actually helps Mexico develop. But I'm sure Reddit knows best what Mexicans want.
The government doesn't always fight for what the citizens actually want or need. Lmao.
That's why I included a poll...
ok I'm aware of it now what? vote more?
More and better
Cool, except our voting system is demonstrably fucked and the elections go whichever way the corporate donors pay for.
I know I'm a couple weeks late but I just wanted to say if you think your vote means so little, why not put it towards something you believe in?
You mean to tell me we don't need a $600B/year military budget to fight 3rd world countries?
We just gave the military a bigger bump than Russia spends total...
This from a "fiscally responsible" Republican congress.
Well, our economy is also like 12x as big.
And our military does a great deal more than theirs does
Hot damn I love your username.
Thanks!
Your lucky you didn't mention how we spend less then Russia % wise gdp for our defence budget, you're get down voted to hell for that
Replace "national security" with "economic interest". Sure, there's Islamic extremists and we can't let them get WMDs, but the whole reason they're trying to kill us is because we fucked their shit up and invaded their countries.
Also, the same applies if you are in any of the following countries...
England, Germany, France, Russia, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Iran, Lebanon, Turkey, China, Qatar, Jordan, Israel, ...should I go on?
Please share.
Aware and thankful. I sleep well at night under the blanket of security that our men and women in uniform provide.
Ew
Pax Americana muthafucka!
Pax Americana?
There have been less than 10 years without some kind of military intervention/war/police action in our entire countries history.
You are uninformed
It's been quite a long time since a war has been fought on American soil; seems to be working.
Yeah. America's surrounded by 3,000 miles of ocean on every side.
in america's entire history though there have been less than 20 years of actual peace where we weren't fighting anybody
There is less conflict in the world now then there has ever been in modern history.
You, sir, are uninformed.
Yeah, that's not American peace. If America is at war then you can't say it's pax anericana. That's just jingoist bullshit.
Peace in the world isn't just because of america. It's because of globalism. And the biggest economic power in the world is the EU.
In fact, America has done more to destabilize the world in the past 50 years than any other country in the world
Eh, you say potato.
The only reason that the EU is the biggest economic power is
1) Germany
2) They're not all at war with each other like they used to be (thanks USA)
3) THEY ARE SEVERAL DIFFERENT COUNTRIES!!!
Tell me Greece, Ireland, and Spain are pulling their weight. Go on. Tell me.
The United States is the dominant power on the globe, hands down. Go ahead and check if your country's currency is backed by the dollar. I'll wait.
How much does any given western country spend on defense? Yeah. You're fucking welcome.
I suppose you'd rather have starved with the soviets.
China is the biggest economic power in the world right now actually in terms of GDP. And that's not likely to change. Germany is ranked fifth and the UK is ranked 6th. The euro block as a whole is still larger than the us. Including Greece, Spain, etc. And that's even though they are absorbing the externalities cause by the U.S. failed interventions that plunged the middle East into civil war. It doesn't matter if they are multiple countries. They trade as one entity
The USA is the number one cause of many of the civil wars in the Arab world these days. And is responsible for the way most of the failed central and South American states ended up by the virtue of funding death squads to destroy any south American political party that dared to act in a way that didn't directly benefit the USA. Trouble that Europe wouldn't be dealing with a refugee crisis if Americas foreign policy didn't destabilize the entire region with ridiculous military conquests with no clear goal. go on, tell me..... I'll wait!
Everything you think America is, is what it actually was but is no longer. All because of people that wave the flag and wear a cross necklace and swear that they are the only true patriots.
As Trump continues his more isolationist policies China and Russia have stepped up their game. On eastern Europe, and the middle East, Russia is the dominant power. In all of Asia and Africa it's China that reigns supreme. For example, when the USA pulled it's aid from Pakistan guess who gave them money, guns, medicine and started building a new sea port in the Arabian sea? That's right, china. The country that's now most easily able to control the shipping channels coming from the oil producing middle east.
Go ahead and check what happens to the us dollar if China, the largest holder of us debt in the world, simply doesn't buy any more us bonds next year. Go on, I'll wait.
Simply puffing up ones chest and blathering on about how kick ass you are, without understanding how Americas sphere of influence is being sliced and diced at every opportunity, is hilarious.
The EU controls Europe. Russia controls everything east of Europe, China controls Asia and Africa, and the us is now theater of north America and parts of south America.
All the while, we haven't won a war since the first gulf war, while at the same time producing the exact situations needed to cause chaos in our allies countries.
America spends so much money on defense because it makes people like dick cheney rich. Defense spending isn't an example of American might. It's an example if American idiocy. Backed up by blowhards like you who think having the biggest toys mean you're the best. Forgetting that camel herding tribesmen have stymied the us in every war since vietnam.
Well, I prefer making one point at a time, as opposed to a giant wall of text, but here we go.
*cracks knuckles*
China has a high GDP because it's a huge land mass with a billion plus people on it. Their yuan is strictly backed by the dollar, so even in their opinion, the US economy is more stable than theirs. The debt we cary with them is intentional. It's not like that electric bill you can't pay. It's like a credit card. It's useful. We're not going back to mercantilism.
The middle east has been in conflict for thousands of years. The United States didn't create it. We are trying like hell to mitigate it. Mostly because they have *gasp* resources! Someone was gonna swoop in on that shit. You'd better believe that the US is the best candidate for the job. We believe in free elections, education for women, civil rights, all that jazz. Sometimes shady shit happens, but for the most part we don't really rape or pillage. We try as best we can to set up stable governments in place of dictatorships and theocracies. Some times it doesn't work, some times it does. I doubt Russia or China would even give half a fart. The clear goal is stability and trade. If you don't think those are good things, then we have to go waaaaaay farther back into this.
What else? Trump's a buffoon and a demagogue, but I believe his isolationism is well intentioned. He wants to close the trade gap with China and bring labor back to the United States. I'm not convinced it's the best idea, but it's an idea. I'm not up to speed on China's naval power but, you know, we have aircraft carriers. They... uh... don't. If all else fails we have a giant aircraft carrier sitting just off their eastern coast. It's called the island of Honshu.
What else?
China is not going to stop buying US bonds next year. They're on thin ice as it is. Their economy would go to shit if they got into a trade war with us. Ours would too mind you, but it is nowhere near their best interest. Turns out, interdependency can be a good thing.
Um... I'm glad you think we're hilarious. Our entertainment/media business thanks you for the countless amount of movies/music/tv you consume.
The EU controls Europe. Duh. That's what the E stands for.
Apparently Russia controls everything east of Europe... except China... who controls Asia... which is... east... of... Europe? Yeah that statement made no sense, so I'm not gonna touch it. Go look at a map.
As to your last point people like Dick Cheney are rich because we spend so much on defense, not the other way around. The economy is not a zero sum game. If one guy is rich, it's not because he stole it out of someone's pocket. It's because he generated wealth. There was some idea out there and it made money. Now there's more money around, and he got some of it. I don't really have time for an economics lesson right now. Rich Americans are not really a problem. Women in burkas that don't know how to read are. They aren't really our problem, but we're fuckin' dealing with it anyway.
Pax Americana bitch.
EDIT: Clarity and grammar.
HAHAHAHA..... thats some of the funniest shit i've read in a long time.
China's GDP growth over the last 2 decades has been nothing short of miraculous. their middle class is now the same size as the US population. I never once said that China would stop buying us debt. i asked if he knew what would happen if they did. It would undoubtedly hurt. But the US is not China's biggest trading partner. the EU is. Followed closely by countries like Japan, South Korea, and Hong Kong. China could absolutely survive the US economy tanking. During the last financial crisis China's GDP continued to grow by more than 7% per year. every year... America might be the biggest guy on the block in a lot of things. but economically it's becoming smaller and smaller relative to the rest of the world. Jingoism, faith, and a belief in American exceptionalism won't slow that down. Neither will the clown in chief's continued economic negligence.
Before America had the worlds largest over-reaction in history to the 9/11 attacks the middle east was advancing the way the west wanted it to. Iraq was controlled by a secular madman who kept oil flowing. Iran was more worried about Iraq being bellicose than about the US, and Pakistan was America's little pet rat that they kept fed so that it kept the nukes in the hands of the corrupt bastards that were less prone to islamist ideologies.
And then the US invaded Afghanistan and Iraq in a period of two years. and blew it all to shit. Afghanistan was controlled by the Taliban in the central areas. but by and large it was a remote and tribal country based more on local politics than anything else. that all change when america decided that it would be the first country to succesfully nation build in Afghanistan. This is not that long after we armed them to stop the Russians from making the exact same mistake. and what do you know.... we lost our appetite for that after nearly 3,000 young men got blown up for fucking nothing. Then we invaded Iraq. a formerly stable country who obeyed the general rule of countries that "it's ok to kill people in your own borders... just don't kill people next door". when they crossed that line with Kuwait in the 90's we promptly slapped them back into place. then we decided to go in there, definitely NOT take their oil, and do some nation building. over 1,000,000 iraqi civillians died, and not he nation is plagued by islamists. in fact, all the leaders of ISIS actually met up in American blacksites. it's kinda cool you know, we were basically like the job fair that gave ISIS it's start-up money.
Now Iraq devolved and the infection from it spread to every single neighboring country. GO AMERICA! good job! to celebrate that we pushed for the Arab spring... and we all know how that turned out. as it happens, America's all for democracy and doing good deeds or people.... unless those people decide that being America's lap dog isn't in their best interest. Then we make sure that their democracy fails. and now all of North Africa and most of the middle east are embroiled in bitter fighting. which as luck would have it has also infected central and eastern Africa. It's amazing how those dominos fall once America decides to do something fucking retarded.
China's influence over Asia is near absolute and it increases every day. America might have air craft carriers. but they aren't the ones dictating what happens in most asian countries anymore. And if the war in iraq and afghanistan has taught us anything, it's that having all the best toys doesn't mean you win. usually it just means you rack up a lot of debt and have some awesome videos of what it looks like to launch a hellfire missle up a camels ass.
America's debt issues can be directly traced back to Reagan's ridiculous tax cuts. followed by Bush's ridiculous tax cuts. and in a few years the economic data will show what happened with trumps ridiculous tax cuts.
the US does not believe in free elections. firstly, Bush stole one. secondly, the republicans gerrymandered better than anyone in history and have made sure that many electoral districts won't see another party in office for a very long time. and they've also gone out of their way to make sure that voter id laws prevent a lot of minorities from voting. and thats before we get into all the good americas done for other fledgling democracies around the world. so lets look at a couple: Vietnam - ho chi minh initially contacted the US because they wanted help creating a democracy. the US said no, so they turned to Russia and thats when America started a fight they couldn't win. south America: do i even need to go into the fucked up shit that we've done down there? overthrowing actual democracies to put right wing lunatics in place who would keep the flow of coffee and bananas coming? and then the middle east: where we over threw a westernizing royal family and put in place the very islamists that we're worried about getting nukes today. Don't fool yourself about america's belief in democracy. the actual belief is: "democracy when it's convenient".
and if you think america doesn't commit war crimes with the best of them then i don't know what you're smoking. from black sites, to torture, to agent orange, etc... you really need to look into it. hell, just google "american war crimes". you'll find a lot of shit that you're conveniently glossing over.
You know exactly what i mean when i say Russia is controling everything east of Europe. Technically, there's really isn't anything east of Russia besides Alaska, and if you want to be exactly literal then everything south of Russia and north of China. But you know exactly what i mean. from Syria to Mongolia, and much of eastern Europe (east of the ukraine atleast).
China's already got control over much of Africa, which is where the next emerging markets will come from. America's isolationsit tendencies mean that we won't be on the front of that particular economic growth and we won't have first shot at any of the minerals that Africa is so famous for.
No, we spend so much on defense because of people like dick cheney who get paid more when we spend more money on the military. they've just gotten idiots convinced that it's unpatriotic to shrink the military. the economy is not a zero sum game. it's a rigged game where the people at the top have pulled up the ladder that everybody else would use to climb up. Rich americans are a huge problem. they're the reason the middle class is going the way of the dodo.
and lastly, since you didn't address anything about the central point. how the fuck can it be pax american when in america's 240 year history less than 10% of that has actually involved any actual peace!?
Sorry love. I'm not your freshmen political science teacher, and I don't have to dissect your incoherent fever dream of a diatribe. The simple fact is that more people eat, and less people kill now than any point in modern history. Maybe that's on the backslide, but you're only serving to prove my point. Maybe China, or Russia or Whogivesafuckia is gaining power, but America's global influence is a net positive. Don't be so quick to pu pu on it. You don't want to see what someone else is gonna do with a global hegemony.
That trend has been going on for a very long time. If anything, America's time as a superpower has, if anything, just continued a trend
https://ourworldindata.org/slides/war-and-violence/#/2
Pax americana is a lie. Americas been at war it's entire life. It's only been about a hundred years since the last time America tried genocide on a group of people. Even less since eugenics and internment camps. And we'll just skip over the death squads and overthrowing democratically elected governments
If you've not got another point to make, that's fine. I never expected you tibhave a belief in anything stronger than American exceptionalism or any other piece of nationalistic bullshit.
Equus fellate bitch
THE US IS EVIL! WAKE UP!
just fucking stop.
During all this discussion about Assange I haven't seen a SINGLE FUCKING PERSON talk about why he was originally targeted, ie for leaking evidence of the US murdering civilians
“Nope, he did a thing in OUR election that’s way more important!!!!” And then Americans wonder why the civilised world fucking resents them...
Assange became a mouthpiece of Russian propaganda and a hypocrite. He showed it after refusing to release info on Trump/Republicans and criticizing the Panama Papers. He had thrown away any ounce of credibility he gained.
That doesn't change the original leaks at all. The disgusting part is that the Americans have completely forgotten the original huge scandal because of their pathetic internal squabbling
I don't give a shit what he did later, your government slaughtered civilians and you've all been so easily made to forget about it
/r/UnnecessaryQuotes
I am in US. I am aware of the wars being waged for my nations security. I'm very proud of the people that serve to preserve my rights.
Don't you ever worry, just a little bit, that the wars are a little bit more about money than about your preservation (this says less about the soldiers than it does the politicians and defence companies).
Think of it this way - war is always about money. This is because money = power. Bad guys use their power for evil. If the bad guys have a lot of money that we take away from them, it takes away their power and they cannot do as much evil.
America preserves freedom in the western world by essentially stealing money, resources, and lives from the bad guys to limit their power. I'm fine with that.
What's this cartoonishly simplistic depiction of "good" and "bad" guys?
Do you also think that not only the people in power, but the general populace of those regions is all "bad people" and that makes it okay to steal from all of them and leave them in subhuman conditions? Or install new, clearly "bad" dictators who happily abuse the common folk?
You just openly admitted America is a villain. Which I agree with. To be proud of shows so much of your character
I said America is fighting the bad and evil people and you call my country a villain? I'm pretty sure this makes you on the side that wants to take away human rights, which shows so much of your character.
As a red blooded American, you're a fucking idiot. Pick up a history book.
How about instead of pulling a Young Turks argument, you actually prove your point with data and facts. You'll never convince me otherwise, and the left is famous for these accusations. WHAT event in history are you referring to and what was the impact?
I don't owe you shit for respect until you substantiate your stance with data. Bring on the fucking downvotes.
With regards to my previous post, the rights i'm talking about people taking away are the first and second amendments by the way... I don't think i'm wrong in my assumption that you would rather not hear a differing opinion.
👌
Keep goosestepping, son.
No idea what you mean by that. Seriously, somebody needs to use some facts and history to back up their stance otherwise how the fuck am i supposed to understand your viewpoint?
There are certainly wars that are fought to improve our national security. There are also wars fought for economic reasons because we're greedy. We should be proud of the former, but still condemn the latter.
There is zero evidence to back up that claim.
Mexican-American War. Annexation of Hawaii. Conquering of the Philippines. Iran-Contra. All military action against Native Americans. The Civil War for half the country. Some number of the destabilizations of the Middle East.
If you're going to make broad claims about evidence, maybe perform a cursory examination of the evidence first.
You didnt provide evidence. You listed wars/conflicts.
But because people on reddit try to be the smartest guy in the room they say things "like evil america fights wars for oil" without any evidence whatsoever.
so what rights were preserved when we invaded Iraq? The right to privacy, oh wait.
And this is why the world laughs at you people
Volunteer. Give your time every once in a while to help others. I volunteer at a food bank once every two weeks and it has changed my life. I feel better coming out of there, knowing I've helped someone, then I ever have working for pay. :)
Don’t own an animal unless you actually know how to care for it...
Eat less meat. I'm not saying you have to go vegan or vegetarian. But just eat less. You dont need it every day.
Every living thing has protein. All of them. just eat a variety of fruits and veggies and you're bound to get most if not all the essentials. Especially if you throw in legumes. Quinoa and hemp are complete sources of plant protein. They are high in iron and so are nuts
My nuts are so high in iron that they clank together when I walk
Only have kids if you can support them and their future education. Let's be real, we really don't need more people in the world, especially in poor areas. Having kids isn't a human right. You wouldn't buy a car you can't pay for, so please refrain from having kids if you can't afford.
There are a lot of people buying cars they can't afford. I don't think education/training has to be that expensive. I think the focus should be on resources to raise them properly. If you don't have either the finances to buy decent food or the willingness to cook decent food from scratch don't have kids etc.
in other news, population will likely tank in the next 20 years because having kids is to damn expensive.
You say that like people only have kids when they can afford them. The people who have the most kids are people who can’t afford to feed themselves.
I'm saying that popular opinion is shifting to only having kids if they can afford them, which has gained traction in middle class risen kids. Sure your gonna have plenty of people who are rich who don't need to care, and poor who will reproduce regardless of then socioeconomic ramifications. What 20 years, when people who hold that will be 40ish and you'll see the results to a lot of population decline.
Get off Reddit and do something productive with your life. /s
this but unironically
Shit.
Eat less meat.
For the love of all that is holy, put your damn shopping cart in the designated cart rack when you’re done unloading your items into the car. Please.
Do what I do: park as close to a cart rack as possible.
Leave things as clean as you found them.
Sad to see eating less factory farmed meat isn't as high up here as it should be. The environmental and food scarcity implications would be astronomical.
We should probably stop breeding animals just to kill them.
Id like to never kill animals ever either, but there really isn't an alternative yet. An alternative to mass farmed meat though is trying to buy localy raised meat which isnt stuffed into tiny cages and beaten/abused.
Smarter food choices. Less meat, and more ethically sourced meats. Better for the environment and your health as well.
No meat. Better for your soul the animals wellbeing and the environment as well!
The soul doesn't exist
Im okay with that. But you gotta prove it.
Oh I was right with you for the longest time. Years and years. But then I started doing research on what "ethical" meat really meant.
Here's the question we have to ask ourselves: is there a humane, or compassionate, way to kill an animal who does not want to die when we can get our nutrition otherwise? Can "humane slaughter" even exist?
It's better for you, too. If your meat comes from nearby, and is eating grass, rather than corn (which we can't digest), you'll be able to digest it better, and you'll be healthier for it. It isn't enough to think about what you're eating, you need to think about what you're eating is eating, too.
You really can taste the hope of escape...
What do you mean?
It's a joke, that's funny because it's true.
Typically, more ethically sourced meats are free-range critters that can roam around outdoors, as opposed to spending their lives locked in cages.
The free-range meats also, in my opinion, tend to have better flavor profiles in their cuts (at least in chicken and beef).
So the joke is, the better flavor is due to the hope of escape from the farm while they're roaming around.
Omg I had grass fed free range liver today (for health reasons). Holy shit! The taste is worlds apart. I will never, ever, EVER eat poorly farmed meat again.
How does one grow free range organs?
Inside a free range cow
Less meat
No thanks
more ethically sourced meats
I'm all about it.
But how can I have both?
You can try hunting for your own meat.
The problem is that in a lot of areas where hunting would make total sense, it's illegal to hunt.
There are some seriously overpopulated species around here, but you can't go out shooting them.
As a general principle though, I agree with you.
Don't just jump on to conclusions without knowing shit..
Don't be overweight. For yourself, your family, and society. Don't unnecessarily burden any of those people and get control over at least one aspect of your life.
I’m for this except for the “for society” thing
No one owes society a damn thing.
Eat less meat (beef really). Not saying stop alltogether, but industrialized cattle farming is taking a serious toll on the worlds climate, and beef isnt too great for ye.
I started raising my own food and I now eat way less meat. I’m not vegan but I understand the consequences of eating meat. I think that helps us make better food decisions.
Nice! Yeah i think doing it all yourself is a good way to appreciate the fact that in eating meat we take a life to prolong our own. The reality of meat often gets very abstracted to the point where people dont register that they're eating an animal that was once alive.
Upvote for use of ‘ye’
Upvote for use of ‘ye’
Go vegan! Super fucking easy and reduces the amount of suffering on the planet by a whole lot. Also more environmentally friendly than consuming animal products.
And yes, it really is easy. If you don't know how to make the switch, come on over to /r/vegan and we'll be more than happy to help you out! Even if you don't want to go full vegan we'd be more than happy to help you reduce your consumption of animal products!
If you're only referring to consuming as in eating, then sure, it might not be that difficult. But that doesn't prevent people from consuming animal products in other ways. I pointed out the dilemma in another comment on here, but in short, we consume/utilize items on a regular basis that contain some semblance of animal byproduct. For example, car and bike tires, glues used in woodwork and instruments, fabric softeners, shampoo/conditioner, toothpaste, condoms, nail polish, and even the plastic and rubber components in computers all contain animal products. It's pretty impossible to avoid using, or in some way consuming, items that use some form of animal product. I understand the argument for reduction in some aspects, but outright elimination? Not sure about that one. It certainly wouldn't be easy.
I find out about stuff that contain animal products almost every day. When I get informed, I change my habits and what I consume.
Glues, softeners, shampoos, toothpaste, rubber, all of the things you listed can be bought vegan. Of course depending on where you live the availability may differ but then again, one does what one can.
End the war on drugs. In places that have legal/decriminalized drug laws almost all of them have a massive drop of od deaths, addiction, and all around crime. Increase drug education and make more rehab centers for people to get help instead of locking a person in a room with a murderer for the majority of their life to "stop them from hurting themselves". Our prison system and drug education is a joke that littrally increases drug abuse.
Adopt through a shelter, not a puppy farm :(
Eat less meat and buy less new clothes. Two of the most polluting industries.
Eat less meat
and research where your food comes from. If a farmer gets payed for higher quality and better animal welfare he will deliver that. But right now farming is all about profit margins...
I said basically the same thing. Know your food.
Go vegan
Or just be knowledgeable about where your meat/dairy comes from and eat it within general guidelines or restrictions to maintain personal health.
where can i buy meat that doesn't involve slaughtering an animal? Also does that negate the environmental impact?
Being vegan is a preference, just like eating meat, and I respect both choices. But if someone wants to eat meat, don't you think the most respectful way to do so is by ensuring the animal had the most natural and full life as possible? Like getting your meat from an organic, free range farm where the animals are behaving the way they would in the wild, as opposed to a factory farm. The environmental impact of everyone practicing organic/natural farming methods (whether its animals or produce) could be quite powerful, don't you think?
by ensuring the animal had the most natural and full life as possible?
Sure. Hunt, then. I am vegan, and have more respect for hunters than people who go to the grocery store to buy a package of meat that has been slaughtered and cut up for them. Animals in the wild are the only animals who live completely natural lives, so if that's what you're goal is, then hunt for your own meat. It's also a lot more environmentally friendly than farming animals.
Agreed
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You called an animal "someone" which I find very offensive. Animals are not sapient creatures and do not deserve that moniker.
I’m sure you call your pets a “someone” not a something.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2011124/Cows-best-friends-stressed-separated.html
https://www.seeker.com/iq-tests-suggest-pigs-are-smart-as-dogs-chimps-1769934406.html
You know what's really offensive? The fact that billions of animals die every month when they don't have to.
Animals are not sapient creatures and do not deserve that moniker.
So what IQ does one need to have to be considered a "someone"? You find it offensive when someone calls a mentally challenged person a "someone"?
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2011124/Cows-best-friends-stressed-separated.html
https://www.seeker.com/iq-tests-suggest-pigs-are-smart-as-dogs-chimps-1769934406.html
One doesn't have to eat meat, though. Of course it's better to purchase meat from a farm you described, but it's still unnecessary killing of a sentient life.
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Of course not, but it does mean that they feel pain, fear, joy, etc., just like our pets do. And just like us too.
Being vegan is a preference, just like eating meat, and I respect both choices.
But do you not agree that one of those choices leads to less suffering and less environmental damage?
I always try to pose this argument, but for some vegans, they need the whole 9 yards
That's their mistake, every damn time. Stop trying to convince people with a moral/ethical argument. It's only going to turn people against you and not win anyone over. The ethical argument falls flat on people like myself who value human pleasure above mild to moderate animal suffering. I don't care that a sentient creature had to die to satiate my cravings. I do care about the environment (in so much as it affects humans) and my health so I try to eat less meat (especially red meat) than I use to.
people like myself who value human pleasure above mild to moderate animal suffering.
I don't care that a sentient creature had to die to satiate my cravings.
Admitting these things about yourself isn't a good look.
You should try to cut your dairy consumption too. Dairy is almost as bad for the environment as meat!
I don't think most people share your strange lack of empathy towards animals, so the ethical argument is still valid for most people.
Why is human suffering more important than animal suffering?
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Unfortunately, not everyone has backyard deer like you. Also, I’m sure there are a lot more animal products you consume on the daily that aren’t deer you shot and that you get at your grocery shop.
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I mean, I wasn’t the original person you were speaking with lol but sure, I’ll answer. What’s the original question? Is it about the environmental impact? How about you answer this: how many animal products do you consume that you do not personally hunt for? I can link you to their environmental footprint.
You need to stop putting so much importance on imaginary internet point because I didn’t even downvote you bro.
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But let’s be honest here, you’re not only eating game you hunt. I’m sure you eat vegetables, grains, and animal byproducts like dairy or eggs. That’s what I’m trying to say. Your food choices have a big impact on the environment even if you do hunt the meat you eat.
Do you exclusively eat the deer you hunt and nothing else? Do you think that is sustainable if every single person in the world did that? You will just end up with factory farmed deer. Animals in the wild are limited in number. There is a reason factory farms exist.
And this completely bypasses the ethical question.
Are you going to actually respond to the original statement?
And this completely bypasses the ethical question.
True. Hunters have contributed to considerable increases in the populations of deer, elk, moose, bear, etc. Without hunters, elk wouldn't even exist in the U.S. anymore. I've given hundreds of dollars to animal conservation this year. I bet you can't say the same.
Are you going to actually respond to the original statement?
What original statement? I just told you why hunting isn't sustainable.
True. Hunters have contributed to considerable increases in the populations of deer, elk, moose, bear, etc. Without hunters, elk wouldn't even exist in the U.S. anymore. I've given hundreds of dollars to animal conservation this year. I bet you can't say the same.
Oh boy! So it was your money that helped the conservation not your actions.
What original statement? I just told you why hunting isn't sustainable.
Funny how hunting is strongly correlated with an increase in the populations of the animals that are hunted. So you mean to tell me that you know better than fish and wildlife data?
Oh boy! So it was your money that helped the conservation not your actions.
Oh boy! It's more than you've done.
From your article:
It has been incredibly successful at restoring the populations of North American game animals, some of which were once hunted nearly to extinction.
So hunters hunted them into extinction and are now controlling their numbers. Not to mention they killed all the predator species. Hunters sure help a lot.
Oh boy! It's more than you've done.
From your article, again:
Money generated from license fees and excise taxes on guns, ammunition and angling equipment provide about 60 percent of the funding for state wildlife agencies, which manage most of the wildlife in the U.S.
I'm pretty sure remaining 40% still comes from regular tax payers.
I have to add that I don't agree with the premise to begin with. Maintaining numbers of an animal just so you can kill them is not ethical. There is nothing immoral about extinction. The act of killing is immoral. Extinction per se is not.
So hunters hunted them into extinction and are now controlling their numbers. Not to mention they killed all the predator species. Hunters sure help a lot.
You have to go back to hunting behavior in the early 1900s to prove your point. A lot of our customs then were ignorant and irresponsible back then, hunting included unfortunately.
I'm pretty sure remaining 40% still comes from regular tax payers.
So hunting and fishing funds 60% of state wildlife agencies. That's no big deal to you?
I have to add that I don't agree with the premise to begin with. Maintaining numbers of an animal just so you can kill them is not ethical. There is nothing immoral about extinction.
Also from the article:
A panel on sustaining America's fish and wildlife resources recently warned: "Without a change in the way we finance fish and wildlife conservation [due to a decrease in the number of hunters], we can expect the list of federally threatened and endangered species to grow from nearly 1,600 species today to perhaps thousands more in the future."
So hunting and fishing funds 60% of state wildlife agencies. That's no big deal to you?
You're not doing it out of the goodness of your heart. You're doing it to fulfill your desire to murder a defenseless animal.
"Without a change in the way we finance fish and wildlife conservation [due to a decrease in the number of hunters], we can expect the list of federally threatened and endangered species to grow from nearly 1,600 species today to perhaps thousands more in the future."
That's not arguing for more hunting. It's arguing for more funding. Hunting isn't the only way to secure funding. Arguably hunting isn't doing any good to the animals getting killed. They suffer all the same.
If you have seen the whole process yourself and are fine with it that's your opinion
Stop circumcising babies. Like geeze it's not your body, leave it alone.
Next thing you know, we'll be telling people to stop imposing their beliefs and religions on their kids /s
Just teach them to be open minded, no religion is right, hehe, but at the same time they are all the truth. Be respectful of others beliefs, it's what keeps them from killing themselves
no religion is right
Religion as it exists today wouldn't exist if people thought that. Think of how many wars could've been avoided in the past if this was the case. People are taught from a young age that there's only one truth and if they deviate from it then they're going to a miserable place after death.
You would think with all the similarities between different religions and their historical origins, people would understand that they're all basically cut from the same cloth
It’s not about religion. I’m pretty certain the vast majority of Americans aren’t Jews or Muslims. Widespread circumcision by gentiles was actually implemented because of a puritanical belief that it would curb masturbation.
puritanical belief
So the Puritans? Who are prominently Christian
Outside of religious contexts, who advocated that masturbation was bad or circumcision should happen?
I grew up mormon, and heard these ideas a lot. I still think the LDS church teaches a lot of good, but the mentality that many of it's members have can be pretty toxic for those who don't agree with their philosophies.
That sounds a lot like "Religion can do a lot of good, but people ruin it"
Yep, pretty much that.
Ah it's lovely how it's okay to say a toddler is a Jewish or Muslim or Christian kid... but it's weird as hell (and I hope it stays that way) to say kids are a liberal or conservative.
Apparently understanding politics is a topic that needs much more maturity than understanding deeply philosophical questions and theories.
At this point, it seems being a certain religion is already associated with a political side but I see what you mean.
Ok I’ll stop.
Nobody likes a quitter
Should be illegal imo.
How did this even become a thing? What kind of sociopath invented circumcision?
I’m so bitter about being circumcised. Mine was botched and I had to receive some really awkward care after bathing as a child. It’s mostly fine now, except I look uncircumcised when cold shrinkage happens. I’m just mad it was chopped off for aesthetic reasons.
My sister had her son circumcised. Still don't know how to feel about that.
I was circumcised, too. I know the arguments both ways, but I can't imagine life any other way, for obvious reasons.
Actually, the more I think about it, the alternative seems like a pain in the ass.
the alternative seems like a pain in the ass
Brushing your teeth every day is a pain in the ass, but I prefer that to not having teeth.
Not gonna argue.
I think you're brushing your teeth wrong.
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No loss of sensitivity is a pretty huge benefit
Pain in the ass yes, but (spitballing here) wouldn't that be broadly better?
Having to explain to your kid "Ok, here's your body, this is your penis, here's how you keep it clean" leads into less body shaming and ignorance.
That's the one argument I see a lot on this topic. If it's a hygiene thing, then yeah, simple education would be a preferable solution.
Also, you think circumcision might just be another peg on the board for lazy, irresponsible American habits? Because I do.
(I say American because I'm not sure how common it is in other parts of the world. I admit my own ignorance. I'd be very interested to know.)
I'm not sure how common it is in other parts of the world.
Not common at all, most people leave their children intact, with the exception of some religious practices. It's commonly associated with Judaism (and Islam IIRC). Outside of USA, Judaism and Islam, it's very rare.
And personally I'd say to leave it to the kid, when they're 18 and their foreskin is bothering them, let them have it cut off. Having your parents make that decision for you when you're a baby seems like bad practice to me. Not circumcising is a reversible action, circumcising is not.
I never understood why Americans use the phrase 'rub one out' until I realised it must have something to do with the fact they have no foreskin so have to rub the end of their dick.
I'd prefer not to have a piece of my dick cut off.
Pretty sure it's just cuz you rub your dick till stuff comes out and has zero to do with foreskin?
but it just doesn't really involve rubbing if you have foreskin. You grab hold of it in the middle, move it up and down and the foreskin goes up and down over the glans. To me, rubbing would be the hand moving more freely over it.
do people without any foreskin rub the end of their dick? I'm guessing they use lotion sometimes so they can do that. Its not necessary if you have foreskin..I only ever heard of Americans using lotion.
I'm gonna give you some penile education amigo.
Am circumcised
Am American
I don't require lotion (or any lube) to jerk off. It's nice if I have the time to deal with cleanup but usually the urge just strikes when I'm chillin on the couch or whatever and I'm not going to go get up, grab the lube, get a towel, etc. I'll just go for it.
The way you describe it is exactly how I jerk it. yes there is probably a lot more contact towards the top with my hand since I don't have foreskin but I'd argue it's doing the same thing yours does, just with my hand instead. So you're still "rubbing" it.
With the amount of cut dicks in porn it's shocking I have to say this.
Those aren't usually masturbarting
Like 75% of porn with a male involved ends in him jerking his dick onto somebody.
Which is usually quite lubricated by that point
Doesn't matter. It's not about if they require lubrication. It's about their masturbation technique. Most of them aren't only focusing on the head, at least no more or less than somebody with foreskin would.
Why are you even arguing this? What does it matter? I told dude about some apparent misconceptions he has about life with a circumcised dick and you're going to come in here and try and tell me the things I said ABOUT HOW I MASTURBATE are wrong because you don't agree with my assessment of masturbation in porn?
Did I say "circumcised dicks 100% never require lube"? No. I said I don't NEED lube to jerk off.
Figure out your actual argument before you reply again.
It's about where the mostly american saying "to rub one out" comes from, specifically as pertaining to the rubbing part. The hypothesis being discussed is that the saying pertains to how the taut skin of a circumcised penis might rub against the hand, as opposed to how the looser skin of a natural one slides together with it. Obviously the presence or absence of lubrication influences this behaviour, thus the porn example being inadequate, and thus the validity of the question you dismissed originally via that example.
But that's just the way I read it.
but it just doesn't really involve rubbing if you have foreskin. You grab hold of it in the middle, move it up and down and the foreskin goes up and down over the glans. To me, rubbing would be the hand moving more freely over it.
do people without any foreskin rub the end of their dick? I'm guessing they use lotion sometimes so they can do that. Its not necessary if you have foreskin..I only ever heard of Americans using lotion.
This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read.
Um... no. Circumcised guys can masturbate exactly the same way as someone who wasn't.
Is that how that phrase came to be? I never thought of it that way.
I was too young to remember it, so I guess I don't care.
I'm glad you don't care because that is a much better state of affairs to being bothered about it. I wouldn't advocate cutting bits of babies dicks off though. There's no need, let people keep their full dicks as evolution intended.
For the record, I agree with you entirely. Let the dick do what it do.
I'm just saying, I don't think being circumcised greatly affected my life in any way. I'm not traumatised by it, like some people claim can happen. I figure if it happens when you're too young to even remember, why should they care?
But, to reiterate... I agree that they could just leave it alone and nothing would change.
We call it 'pounding off' where i'm from.
I see nothing wrong with being circumcised. In fact I think it’s healthier.
It technically is, but a lot of Redditors get mad when you say it.
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There are studies that show some health benefits. But we're talking less than 1% of stuff you're already unlikely to get such as utis. As far as hpv, we have a vaccine for that and for HIV we have prep. Ultimately I think that if the child perceives the benefit to be enough, he should be able to choose on his own when he's old enough. But making the decision for him is wrong, since there are very real trade-offs. Ultimately we have to admit that is primarily a cosmetic procedure.
Yeah, because they don’t do research and they think anything that’s good that someone they don’t agree with agrees with, redditors automatically think it’s bad.
think
And that'd be why you're wrong!
Don't feed the beasts: Big Banks, Big Ag, Big Pharma.
Unfortunately, until there's a local, organic, or DIY alternative to the life saving medication I take daily, I'm stuck with the last one.
Also the first person to say some combo of "exercise!/get into nature!/let food by thy medicine!" is an asshole.
While exercise, nature, and a good diet should be staples of any person's life, they're not always the answer.
This. Sometimes your body is just fucked on a fundamental level.
I think both sides of this are things that nobody should be against.
So a person is chronically sick. Will exercise, nature, and a better diet help? Probably. Will those things hurt? No (assuming proper safety is employed). Ok then, get some exercise, go outside, and eat something green.
So you're chronically sick. This medicine keeps you alive. Should you stop taking it and exercise, go outside, and eat better instead? Absolutely not. Would it probably be beneficial to add those things to your life while still taking your medicine? Almost undoubtedly (unless your doctor has specifically told you that one or more of these things is bad in your particular situation).
I personally am the type of person that if I can avoid taking a medicine, and can fix whatever issue I have with 'natural' methods, I'm all about it. Sometimes exercise, nature, and diet can fix a problem. Depression sometimes, joint pain sometimes, blood pressure issues usually, type 2 diabetes to an extent, cholesterol issues almost always, weight problems almost always, hormonal imbalances often, insomnia often, anxiety sometimes, certain vitamin deficiencies usually. But, of course, if END (exercise, nature, diet) can't fix it, get whatever medicine/treatment you need to be and feel healthy.
I agree 110% well said
I know and I'm sorry.
This was more directed at those who invest in them or use them for advertising revenue or for click-bait 'medical' articles, etc. not those who need them.
Oh I didn't mean you, I knew what you meant and I agree. Trouble is there's no alternative for a lot of people.
Additionally, big pharma includes companies like Bayer, J&J etc and extends to those making products for Big Ag like insecticides, antibiotics for livestock, etc. A lot of the personal care products we buy are Big Pharma.
Exactly. Exercise and a good diet isn’t going to fix my broken islets of langerhans.
In this case there’s nothing we can do but legally force them to lower their prices, all political ethics aside
Is small pharma a thing?
I know a midget that sells hydrocodone. That count?
I'll accept it.
Shit, man... Can I have his number?
4
In regards to big pharma, OP might be saying to solve your health issues in other ways than drugging yourself if possible. There are a lot of health ailments in the US that can be prevented/cured purely by eating a healthier diet. Anecdotally speaking, the doctor told me that if I didn't lose weight and clean up my diet I was going to have to go on cholesterol and diabetes medicine after looking at my blood work. I decided that day to clean up my diet and pay attention to how many calories I was eating. I lost 50 pounds in 5 months (with zero exercise, mind you). Now my blood work passes with flying colors.
Actually, I'm referring to buying products other than medications Big Pharma produces which includes a lot of cleaning products, personal care products, gardening products, pet care and products etc.
Unfortunately, people have conditions that aren't solved by diet, exercise and the usual advice people give. Many people suffer as the result of very necessary life giving medications that have become unaffordable out of sheer greed. Of course keeping yourself healthy is important but I'm not trying to advise anyone about their health, the best person for that is their physician.
Actually, I'm referring to buying products other than medications Big Pharma produces which includes a lot of cleaning products, personal care products, gardening products, pet care and products etc.
Ah ok.
Unfortunately, people have conditions that aren't solved by diet, exercise and the usual advice people give. Many people suffer as the result of very necessary life giving medications that have become unaffordable out of sheer greed. Of course keeping yourself healthy is important but I'm not trying to advise anyone about their health, the best person for that is their physician.
I wasn't suggesting that diet and exercise would solve everybody's health problems. However, I do think it would solve a lot of them though...which would free up the time, energy, effort, money, research, and innovation which could be spent to help those people whose problems are not solved by diet and exercise.
Gottcha. When I hear most people complain about big pharma it tends to be the antivaxers, mlm sellers or people that believe that going outdoors cures depression
Support small, local business.
Everyone is for this until they have to open their wallets.
Oh my fucking god yes.
We have ACTUAL free range poultry. As in they go in a coop in bad weather or at night. We supplement their grazing/foraging with garden scraps and a premixed organic feed. We have an egg scale.
Large-XL eggs are $3.00/dozen.
Jumbo (which the carton has to be taped shut) are $4.00/dozen.
Literally collected that morning. Only way to get them fresher is to follow a hen all day.
People fucking balk. "I can get a dozen eggs for $3.00 at the store!" Then why are you in my driveway?!
Also fresh produce. I don't weigh it. I sort things like tomatillos/peppers/cherry tomatoes in quart containers for $1.00
I make mild/medium/hot "salsa boxes" so you can blend/chop them at home immediately before serving. $1.50 for about 1-1.5 quarts of salsa.
Need one zucchini? Ah, heck. How's $0.50 sound?
People still fucking argue!
You are selling the cheapest free range eggs I have ever heard of. My husband co-worker was THRILLED when we started raising way too many chickens for our own personal consumption as they were dealing with $9 a dozen for eggs.
Jesus H. Christ on a crutch! Are golden hens laying them? I make out like a damn bandit at $4/doz.
I wish there was somewhere like this around me, I use salsa all the time. If there is I don't know where.
Fair and square pricing is a failure. Sadly it's a failure of human nature to need to feel like they are getting a deal. You might have more luck increasing the sticker price of everything then giving a "discount" on check out.
Did that with goat milk. $5/gallon or $7.00/gallon in a glass jar and you get $4/gallon if you bring the jar back to refill.
People wanted to pay $7. Keep the $0.30 jar, and then just keep paying $5 for disposable containers OR demand the cheap price after they "forget" to bring their jar back.
I'm upset, your prices sound hella reasonable for the product, and you get all the benefits of local and responsible agriculture, and people still don't realize that.
Damn, even big box store large “free range” or better eggs around me are all at least $4.50 a dozen :(
Going to a local market or ethical grocery store would skyrocket the price even higher. I would kill for ethical eggs at $3/dozen
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Oh yeah, up here in NoVA can get to $6/dozen easily. I was talking about even the bottom shelf “feel good” eggs that say stuff like “cage free” that doesn’t actually mean anything. Pasteur raised, antibiotic and hormone free, locally raised... I don’t even want to think about the price
Could you describe the persons who complain? I mostly want to know age
The demographic of buyers in general are mid 50s all the way to a few in their 80s. Easily 99% of complaints are 50-55.
Fuck those people, I'll take your eggs for $4/box. Good ingredients are worth their weight in gold. I went to Ireland and had a steak from a local small farm...holy shit it was heaven.
Do you have any issues with predation on your flock? I want to raise 4-5 hens for eggs but I worry about foxes and raccoons. I've done the prep work of putting hardware cloth around the coop for night protection, but I worry about their "pasture" area during the day.
Most predators are nocturnal. Generally speaking, your flock should be fine in the day.
Whereabouts are you located?
During the day, stray dogs and hawks are the problem. I ALWAYS suggest getting roosters. Protecting the girls is their whole purpose in life. But if you can't, I suggest making a large pen. We had to temporarily while a family of hawks raised young ones 10' from our pasture.
But we have dogs that prevent too many unwanted visitors. We have (knock on wood) never lost a bird to predation. We lose eggs to a rat snake named Thomas once in a while. But never birds.
Thank you! I'm in Pennsylvania, rural and surrounded by fields and woods. Foxes are my big fear. I'm making a "paddock" type enclosure attached to the coop (about 24x20') for daytime, with welded panels covered in wire. And hardware cloth around the bottom edges. I'm planning on netting for on top.
Username checks out... (In all seriousness though, I wish more people realized this... you're paying for the quality, dammit! Now pay up or shut up!)
What state/area are you in?
East Texas, Big Thicket area.
Well, 25 hours is a bit too far of a drive to come by and grab some eggs :)
If you ever find yourself in the area, i'll hook you up with a free dozen!
Where are you?! I need you.
East Texas. I do "send gifts to friends" like jelly, salsa, etc every year.
Y'know.
If anyone needs friends. Or salsa. Or wild muskedine jelly.
The big ag companies are what makes $1 loaves of bread possible. And for someone working a minimum wage part time or casual job a cheap $1 loaf of bread can be the difference between having bread and not having bread. They can not afford to spend $3 or $4 for an loaf of bread.
That feels like it's caused by a related problem. Maybe people should not be worried that spending $2-3 more for a staple regularly means that they go under because they should be making enough to live somewhat comfortably (and I think like $20 bucks wiggle room in a budget isn't too much to ask). Maybe people shouldn't be eating 3 loaves of bread in a week or eating 2 full sandwiches at lunch and we need to get better at eating a reasonable amount of food. Maybe we need to help minimum wage workers with children more so they can buy the better bread for those kids which can only be good for our whole society. IDK - it just doesn't seem like $5 bread is an issue, $1 bread that extends the amount of time we ignore the real problems is an issue.
Yep. "Oh this product is 13 cents more here than it is at so and so?" "Bye this place is too expensive".
Where I live unfortunately small business owners cost significantly more than 13 cents for an individual item. I understand they need to charge more because they get way less traffic; but the difference in my grocery bill every month is like 100+ if I shop small and local compared to a Trader Joe's or local supermarket.
100+ more every month if you shop small and local?
Yeah it costs me an additional $100 or more per month on top of my budgeted grocery bill if I choose to shop local over a chain store.
Gotcha. Do you have farmer's markets near you? I find at least produce is usually actually cheaper that way.
I think we have some that should open up soon! That is a really good idea, I’ll have to look into those.
It's not even that it's 13 cents. So many products in my local grocery store are so much more expensive that it's not unusual for it to be cheaper for me to drive 40 miles round trip to Wal-Mart and get one or two items there. I'm talking like a 30-50% markup on almost everything in the store over Wal-Mart's prices. I have no idea how that grocery store stays in business.
I feel like a 30-50% markup on a product compared to wal-marts product would be the standard normal price. Who would imagine that a company who employs 1% of America can afford to purchase and sell things at such low prices.
My point being that if I can spend 100 a week on groceries or 150, that's a pretty easy choice. It's not " fuck local businesses, I need some change for the vending machine." It's "I can pay my water and electric bills with the savings."
It's not actually "mark-up" as people interpret the term "mark-up". It's actually the (most of the time) fair price to cover the supplier and the seller. The problem is that large companies like Wal-mart and such can charge less on items because of the bulk they buy in. They can afford to lose a portion of the profit because of the amount of units sold. Basically, Wal-mart can charge what an independent seller pays.
I posted above but i sell batteries and i literally have either better batteries for a better price or just flat out cheaper options. Walmart comes close or matches some of my prices and i regularly have people say " i can get that at walmart( incert big box store) for the same price why should i shop here. I mean i want to support small business or some bullshit and then more bullshit". It makes me irrationally mad
Oddly enough, these are the same people that support $15 minimum wage, which would ensure that most small businesses couldn't thrive outside of major cities like LA and NYC.
From Seattle where we passed one of those higher minimum wage laws - small businesses are fine, and the longer that all this plays out the better it looks. Sure there was some short term issues - which wouldn't have happened if the minimum wage had kept up consistently since the main issue is that it went up by over 30% in one year not that it raised at all - but everything is adjusting and I'd rather pay enough for employees to be adequately compensated as would most people in Seattle apparently.
If you don't want to pay for fair wages, move somewhere else. Bet you won't because those places aren't the kind drawing in a ton of new people or new businesses for that matter. I wonder why.
And many of today's politicians pretend to be in support of it, when they actually don't give a real shit about anything at all except their bottom line.
It was a depressing thing to find out that my extreme cynicism was actually spot on when it came to politicians.
People in general, really, when it comes down to it, aren't against you, they are for themselves.
I suppose but it seems like many of their actions extend well past self-preservation into the realm of excessive and expediential greed. In other words, if you and I are playing volleyball, it's one thing for me to play against you as an opponent. In this case, indeed, it is to each his own. Capitalism, as it was meant to be.
But that does not pardon a player who tries to get ahead by bribing the referee, or attempting to sabotage or disqualify his team, or tweak the rules of the system itself in a way that is advantageous to him.
Each person is entitled to the pursuit of happiness, but they are not entitled to changing the rules themselves in their favor and claiming innocence. Anyone who attempts to pass off the latter as the former is a cheeky little asshole that needs to be regulated or otherwise controlled.
I run a locally owned small business and we sell a fantastic product that at any price point its the best quality you can find. I regularlly have scumbags say "well 75 bucks i can pay that at walmart why should i shop here(walmart or whatever business they stated usually doesnt even have a cheaper option to begin with)". I mean maybe to support small business, better customer service, i know what im talking about and walmart doesnt care about the product they are selling or you at all. Its actually disgusting how many people react like this
What do you sell?
I guess that there are some things that I'd be willing to pay more for to get something that's better quality and from a store that provides better service. But then there are other things that I don't really care that much about that I will just get the best bang for my buck option.
batteries. Things like car batteries we are most certainly cheaper and carry the literal same product or better and people always try to haggle or make us feel bad about being the same price
Exactly this... I run a local ISP. Every screams about how much they hate Comcast but won't actually switch away just because it's cheaper. Anyone who complains about their incumbent Telco and hasn't googled local internet or local wisp have no right to complain.
But what if they're run by jerks?
Corporations are quite frequently just a ton of jerks who have become more efficient at being jerks.
This isn't exactly a fair assumption, but I guess they did build their business by trouncing on their competitors. If that's your definition of jerk, then so be it, but many of them are actually good people, just shrewd.
Nah, that's not my definition of jerk. I should clarify that I'm talking about mega-corporations that do shady things to bolster their bottom line, which is absolutely not a rare thing.
Often, their "crimes" are distributed amongst departments and teams so it's hard or impossible to point to any single person as "the villain" except maybe the CEO or something. Maybe "jerk" is the wrong term, I borrowed it to be pithy. "Guilty" is more technically accurate.
I know everybody's just trying to make it in this world so it's not like I hold them personally responsible, but if a "good person" is working for such a corporation, one that participates (however slightly, however indirectly) in strengthening those oppressive mechanisms that prioritize profit over overall societal wellbeing - they are not innocent. Good maybe, but not innocent. Of course, you do touch upon a good point: corporations are ultimately just us, and in a way we are all complicit. And even villains, in their minds, think they are "good."
Too big a topic for a random Thursday, lets go get ramen and forget about all this
Then take your business to another business. One that meets your criteria. That's the beauty in the variety of smaller business.
Sorry there is a reason small business are being run over. Only small business with quality will survive. There are tons of things why consumers prefer Amazon and like
Because legislature and regulations are being written in large corporations' favor because the politicians are practically on their payroll. 22% of small businesses in the US said the largest threat facing their business is government regulations. To add to that, when people talk about the "1%" paying a majority of taxes, these are the people they're talking about, not Bill Gates. People that are docking their own pay just to keep their business afloat.
Hmm I kinda agree. I need to check r/changemyview on this
Oh, I thought you were referring perhaps to bears. Don't feed them either.
Exactly! Who cares if big companies are ending poverty, disease, and starvation? They're making more money than me and that's bad.
Yup. Big Pharma is actually “people who research new things that can eventually cure the common cold, but they do it for a living so need the money to keep doing it.” Big Ag is “efficiency to keep this food going because people can go up but the farms go out, because sunlight covers area and not volume.” Big Banks... “we offer money for some time but the people we lend to don’t always pay it back so we’re going to make you shoulder the burden of that, especially because you’re a possible one of those as well.” And definitely Big Insur—“Some people are inherently risky but we can’t tell who they are. We will crowdfund them using this, and it will crowdfund you if you are one of them.” I know lots of unethical stuff happens in these businesses, and some of the things in them are unreasonably expensive. I’m trying to specify what’s happening to make it expensive, not saying that the companies are good.
No to mention he/she is bitching about the "1%" while tapping that comment into a consumer electric computing device probably putting him/her into the top 10% themselves.
Whats Ag silver?
Agriculture. I think silver would be general jewelry, called Big Accessories or something
Meh, I'd rather have "the highest standard of living any human has ever experienced" for $1000 Alex.
Even our most destitute don't starve.
Let's not forget Big Tech... an even bigger beast than the latter two.
Yes, Big Oil is another.
But where will I get my penis enlargement pills?!
Be financially responsible and avoid taking out loans. Question your doctor's prescriptions and see if there's a lifestyle change you can make instead.
I read this as "don't feed the breasts"! OY!
Be vegan.
Switch to green electric. It'll cost very little more than you're currently paying (if you look around) and if enough people make this choice it will have a huge impact. It will take you less than an hour to switch and offers a year of feeling incredibly smug everytime you turn a light on.
Can you expand on that? What exactly do you mean by green electricity?
My guess is supplementing/replacing your house's electricity with solar panels and/or windmills with the potential to return electricity back to the grid.
You don't even have to do that in some places; some power companies offer renewable energy plans. I'm fortunate enough to be serviced by a company that has a 100% renewable energy plan. It's not their absolute cheapest plan so I understand if not everyone can do it, but the difference for me was something like <$100/yr - I'm fortunate enough to be able to pay the difference.
So you could do all that to reduce you electric bill but you can also just choose a supplier who only buys electric from green sources on your behalf. It might not work like that outsode the UK though.
That does sound neat. I'm in the United States though. Most of our power grid is powered by hydro-electric, coal, and nuclear. Despite the disruption to natural land, hydro-electric is pretty darn green and clean.
In Germany you can decide to get your energy 100% from renewable energy. It's a little bit more expensive, but it's for saving humanity, I wished everyone would do it.
you can do this in the UK too.
Its kinda baloney too though. Solar doesn't work in the dark, wind doesn't work when its not windy. Germany doesn't have all that much hydro. If you could track your individual electrons you're utilizing a lot of coal/oil based electricity. What you've really got is a "green offset".
potayto potarto. In an ELI5 system of 100 electrons of electricity in a barrel. 95 electrons come from coal but 5 electrons come from a green company. They're all mixed around but i take 5 electrons out and pay the green company for them it doesn't matter if 4 or even 5 of my electrons are from coal, 5 went in the barrel and 5 came out and green company got paid for them and will continue to make green electricity.
So in the UK you can just choose electricity suppliers who only buy electricity from wind solar etc. It's crazy simple. I have no idea how it works in other counties though sorry
I'm in the US. I didn't switch suppliers but mine has a program that I can pay the premium for my share of electricity to be part of their green portfolio.
Reducing meat consumption
Keep yourself in good physical condition. This will reduce the impact that drug abuse and obesity have on our healthcare system, will make you feel better, and will generally make society better.
Conserve water -- when you go into a public restroom and take a nice big old POOP, make sure not to flush!
If someone's legal life choice does not directly affect you, leave them be.
Always continue to educate yourself. It's your civic duty. Find actual information (NOT on Facebook) and form opinions from that. Read books, peer-reviewed journals, etc. about topics that interest you - nonfiction is only boring if you pick boring topics.
For the love of all that's good, stop buying Nestle bottled water!
Nestle is an evil company that profits on exploiting our most precious natural resource. While California deals with drought, Nestle ships truckloads of bottled water every day. Their Ice Mountain pumping station in Michigan has lowered the local water levels, drying up ponds and lowering the groundwater. What's more, despite the damage they're applying to raise their pumping from 250 gallons per minute to 400. The MDEQ says that can't even arbitrarily say no because of "reasonable use" laws that could allow Nestle access to more water.
While I agree, nestle owns so many water bottle companies and has their hands in every food product. It's not easy
You need to provide a good alternative or educate. A lot of us drink/drank bottled because it tastes better or municipal water quality is lacking (so they say). We have hard water so we installed home filtration and I like it better, enough that I was able to finally ditch bottles for good.
Donate blood every now and then.
Have one fewer child. Still feel a void? Adopt.
Instructions unclear, killed first born now what?
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This. When factory farms for meat, dairy, and eggs are out of sight, it's easy to underestimate the sheer level of suffering that living beings on these farms endure. But that suffering is still very real. We don't choose what species we're born into--I wouldn't want to live the life that a factory farmed cow, chicken, or pig faces, so I don't want to inflict that life onto them.
Consider having less kids or no kids at all. Edit...consider adoption before having kids. Edit edit...consider fostering before having kids.
I'm on the fence. On one hand, my wife and I are both pretty smart, we're healthy, we don't use drugs, we have job security, we're mindful of others, and we're not violent or hot-tempered...and all of this makes us realize that we -- and the world -- would likely be better off if we didn't have a bunch of kids.
On the other hand, the fact that we'd (probably) be good parents makes me think we should have a dozen kids to combat all the kids being born to shitty parents in the next generation.
On the other hand, the fact that we'd (probably) be good parents makes me think we should have a dozen kids to combat all the kids being born to shitty parents in the next generation.
Why not adopt and help kids who are already here in tough situations? Also, you cannot know how your kids end up. Even great parents have had many bad apples, the ball isn't just in your park. There might be genetic problems you can pass on, and there is always a chance of having disabled children. Would you be prepared for all of those situations and not just the Kodak moments? I'd think twice.
Adoption is reasonable, but looking at the bigger picture, kids awaiting adoption are a very small portion of the issue.
The vast majority of kids born to uneducated, drug-using, violent, inattentive parents who pop out a new kid every year, are stuck with those parents because the parents aren't abusive enough to take the kids away, and the parents want to keep them.
Realistically, my wife and I will probably have two of our own kids, and that's it. While some bad kids come from great parents and great kids from bad parents, statistically a child is way more likely to grow up to be good people if their parents raised them well.
Adoption is reasonable, but looking at the bigger picture, kids awaiting adoption are a very small portion of the issue.
Okay, but why not adopt as long as there are kids to adopt (and there will be)? Literally anything you do will just be a "very small portion" of the issue or its solution.
They feel entitled to force someone into existence without their consent.
For the simple and selfish reason that I would prefer to have my own kids, so if I have one kid, but I want a second, and my wife and I are both physically able to have our own kid, we'll procreate.
There you go, honesty is valuable. Don't attempt to hide the fact and mask it as some sort of selflessness for the future generations.
Well, it's not quite as simple as that. There's a nuance and hierarchy of priorities. I can have degrees of selfish and selflessness all balled up in the same act.
I've decided that if I ever am in a position where I want kids, I'll be adopting. The foster care system is already so full of kids that need homes and parents, and it just feels wrong for me to have my own.
Good choice. There are kids already born who are screaming out for a stable home. No need to bring more little ones into this world.
I don't think it's wrong to have your own child (if you're capable of sustaining them and are financially responsible and stuff), but it is awesome to adopt.
That's an important distinction. The "opposite" of a good thing isn't always a bad thing. It could be a neutral thing, or situationally-good thing, etc.
Oh no to clarify, I don't think it's wrong for people to have children. I have a lot of reasons I personally don't want children myself, and I'd rather help someone who already needs a family. It's my own personal feeling about myself having a child stemming from a lot of societal and familial expectations of producing offspring that just rubs me the wrong way.
So when/if the time comes, I personally feel adoption is my best course of action for me.
Ah, yeah I misread the intention of your comment - apologies. And I commend you for that, lots of people have these elitist prehistoric notions of "if they don't share your blood it's not your family" and it's so tiresome and cringey to be honest. I agree that family is what you make it, and I think adoption is beautiful. Best wishes for you stranger whatever you end up doing/pursuing.
No worries, I can see how it was misconstrued.
Since I've gotten out of college into the professional field, I have extended family inquiring about when I will be making babies despite my being single and 60K in debt from student loans, and I already have all of these built up frustrations and fears of being delegated to incubator after years of struggling to get into my dream career. I know I won't be able to raise kids until I'm older and more financially stable, whenever that may be. Oddly enough, though, I've always considered adoption, even when I was a kid.
But yes, thank you, internet person, I wish the best for you too. I hope you have a good weekend!
I feel similarly. I hadn't thought about adoption vs having my own, but I knew for certain: "either way, I can't afford it now!" I have this sneaking suspicion that peoples' "extended families" are responsible for the survival of so many harmful traditions, almost like a villain in a video game: "/u/anodesu VERSUS EXTENDED FAMILY'S EXPECTATIONS - FFFFFIGHT!"
Meh, anyway. You too. <3
Couldn’t agree more. Doubt I’ll ever have a child, who knows but I’ve always felt the same way. There’s enough people here that need to be loved. I don’t need a dna replica, I just need someone to know their worth on this planet is something to me.
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consider adoption before having kids
You should amend your statement to "consider fostering prior to having kids".
Adoption is a pretty hard, drawn-out process. That's why people tend to go overseas for it.... and that's not always ethical.
Fostering, on the other hand, can result in adoption eventually - and helps someone in need now.
Agree and noted. Extra edit added.
I feel more people (that are mentally and financially stable) should consider adoption or fostering instead of having their own kids.
Absolutely. Adoption over having your own.
I disagree. If you want to reduce population growth we need to focus of helping developing countries become stable and help them provide water and electricity to everyone. If you are an intelligent person in the first world, your kids are more likely to help working towards solving this problem.
There are just as many intelligent people living in those countries. It's not like intelligence is limited to the first world.
You are not wrong. The point (s)he is trying to make (I assume) is that while intelligence is not limited to where you are born, resources are. First-world children will have the resources to help out their third-world counterparts.
I think first world countries are already doing that. The problem is culture. It's hard to change a country and improve its standing when it's people are clinging on to their old traditions and cultural ways
This is a good point.
nice colonialism implying that a country's culture holds it back from developing instead of a climate where the negative aspects of that culture are allowed to flourish
US never says diddly squat to Saudi arabia about their human rights violations or them treating their imported help as financial slaves and gives them lots of money and weapons instead
Well there's a reason Saudi Arabia isn't considered a first world country then huh?
climate where the negative aspects of that culture are allowed to flourish
Sure but these climates don't just magically appear. They're created over time and shaped by the people living there
...what are you even talking about? first world countries are abusing a LOT of third world countries for their resources without helping them in meaningful ways.
hell most of the middle east is going to go under a mad max style revolution as soon as the oil runs out
"Colonialism?" Uh, what? I don't think you're using that word in its proper context here. You do realize that the "negative aspects" of a culture flourish because the PEOPLE who subscribe to them continue to ALLOW it and endorse it, right? Children are born into families who continue to invoke the same beliefs and traditions, even if they are harmful, and those children continue to pass on those "negative aspects" to their future children, and so on, creating and sustaining many of the issues we see. As haha_thatsucks mentioned, they are created over time and shaped by those who live there.
What exactly is another country, like the U.S., supposed to do to change the way the people in those countries operate? You say they do diddly squat about human rights violations, but beyond promoting better education, what else can you actually DO to change the detrimental effects of some of those harmful traditions and viewpoints? Throw money at them? What is your idea of "helping them in meaningful ways"?
No, but it's disproportionately skewed toward the first world. Towards the places that have more funding for education, go figure.
True, but when it comes to solving the overpopulation problem I still don't think encouraging people to have children that don't want to is the right answer.
Maybe better programs for gifted minds from the third world countries to attend the educational institutions of the first world (doesn't look likely in the US right now though) would help, but I just don't believe more people is the answer to the problem
I think they're saying that prohibiting multi child families in areas positioned to provide education to the areas lacking it is a slower path to solving overpopulation than allowing people to have kids who might do those things.
Education is though.
People can be intelligent but the children they decide to bring into this world may not be. Anyway, being intelligent has nothing to do with working towards solving the problem.
Adopt children, raise them to make them able to solve this problem.
Fair enough
Ah, the tell-tale sign of someone who sucks at maths. Or as late professor Al Bartlett puts it: "The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function."
The moral of the story: If you don't address the current rampant population growth, all other measures will be rendered null and void in a matter of years. Sustainability can only be reached if you address all the issues - including the elephant in the room.
Many first world countries have negative population growth.
Many also have population growth due to immigration. Overpopulation doomsayers have been around for decades preaching imminent disaster.
Overpopulation doomsayers have been around for ~~decades~~ centuries preaching imminent disaster.
Fixed that for you
Considering the ongoing mass extinction event we're very clearly driving, they were most certainly right.
Doom doesn't have to mean for humankind.
Actually, looking at recent UN statistics (2015), most of the 35 countries with negative population growth are primarily experiencing it as a result of emigration rather than lower birth-rates. Many are eastern European nations, whose populations tend to move west, to the bigger economies of the EU. Spain, Portugal and Greece are also experiencing emigration due to high unemployment. Quite a few of the rest are tiny island-nations which can't sustain a large population anyway. Oh and there's Ukraine and Syria, which have been fucked up by civil wars and invasions.
The only large developed nation on the list with a big economy and little emigration is Japan, and its negative growth is one of the smallest, at -0.12%.
Source: UN population division
Found through Wikipedia
I don't have time at the moment to read through the Excel sheets, but the wiki article did not appear to account for Immigration. Maybe I'll check back on it later. But I'm making my statement on the assumption that immigration and emigration are not included. I could be wrong, it's just one of those stats I heard somewhere once, but it seemed reputable at the time. Thanks for doing some leg work.
I just googled this and the first world countries I saw (other than japan) all have positive percentage growth rates. Low, but not negative. Source?
Accounting for Immigration?
It's a well-known fact that China and India have billions of people living there. Most other countries barely scrape millions.
I disagree strongly. I'm sorry, but if you are a parent in the US, the chance that your kids will contribute a significant amount to lifesaving advancements in the infrastructure of developing nations is a very small one at best. Your kids consuming at least 12x as many resources as a single child born in one of those developing nations is a near guarantee. That cost does not outweigh the benefit on a global scale. The last thing the world needs more of is people with our shitty Western consumption habits. Everyone does unethical things, and it's best not to kid ourselves about it. People can and will still have children--it's their prerogative--but nobody living in a developed nation should be doing cognitive gymnastics to pretend that it's an ethical choice.
Also, sending a bunch of Americans over to fix problems in other nations has historically not resulted in systems that are actually sustainable in the long-term for developing countries. I think we have an obligation to help, but also that institutional change needs to actually happen within those nations first and foremost. The most helpful thing we can do is provide resources to let them solve problems in ways that make sense for them, because our solutions to the same problems aren't one-size-fits-all.
It's not about sending people to other countries to fix problems. It's about contributing to a stable functioning society globally. Your kids might design the website for the industrial design firm that builds the pumps that go into water irrigation system.
My point is basically that instability causes people to have 12 kids, and stability causes them to have 1.
My point is basically that instability causes people to have 12 kids, and stability causes them to have 1.
Which is correct, but the justification is still circular because the one child is still using the resources of 12+ in another country. Other countries with high birthrates are not the problem, environmentally speaking, because the problem is not the sheer number of kids or adult people; it's about the amount of resources (both finite natural resources and human resources) consumed. What I'm saying is that if we all tally up our oblique contributions to society in developing countries against our often exploitative and definitely oversized consumption of resources, the most ethical thing we can do is drastically reduce our consumption of resources.
Again--we all do unethical things. I own plenty of crap I don't actually need. That doesn't make it an ethical decision, though, and I can accept and come to terms with that. Bringing a child into the world and raising it necessitates an enormous amount of consumption of resources in the culture we live in, and it is completely optional. You could decide to have a child and then attempt to forego most of that consumption while raising them, but good luck: we live in a consumer culture, and kids aren't going to understand why they don't get to have things or do things.
I get your point, it is a good one.
I guess I see it as an attitude that your culture has no value and is not worth continuing. And at a very broad level that is kinda what I object to. Maybe I'll come back later when I can put together my thoughts more coherently.
Yeah, it's a tough pill to swallow, to be sure. It's a lot of cognitive dissonance we have to deal with. Again, this is something that I very much take part in as well--we're all subject to the culture we are surrounded by. I think that part of the problem is that our society has allowed our culture to be defined by consumerism to a degree that we are harming ourselves and others by it. Culture will always exist as long as there are humans--this particular aspect of our culture is harmful and should change for the benefit of everyone. I think that cultural change is both possible and necessary--harmful aspects of culture have changed before, and we're in the midst of some large cultural changes right now--but right now Americans in particular are still extremely unethical in our consumption, and also pretty well sheltered from the largest negative effects our consumption. When our culture changes to a point where our consumption is fully sustainable, there won't be ethical ramifications to having kids.
This is why I regularly give to Charitywater. It’s a great organization.
I disagree. If you want to reduce population growth we need to focus of helping developing countries become stable and help them provide water and electricity to everyone.
Can you elaborate? Won't this just accelerate population growth?
If parents only have 2 kids that is negative population growth. You only accelerate population growth when you have more. And places where society is unstable is where people have more kids. Because there is real risk they could die. Water, electricity, and consistent rule of law are the 3 best things to enable business to grow and flourish. And when people have jobs and feel safe then they have less kids.
I love how you assume they meant adopt from other countries. There are plenty of kids born in the US that need a home.
That's not what I meant... Also I commented before OP edited.
so in other words we need a WW3
Or a mass virus that will wipe a large part of the population out.
I don’t quite see how this is ethical. The overpopulation issue is mostly confined to 3rd world countries - and I personally don’t care to adopt or foster a child. I’d rather have my own. Nothing wrong with that.
Studies show that the world population will actually begin decreasing in the next few decades, overpopulation is a widely overstated problem.
Yes, exactly. I clarified on my points in a comment chain with someone else who replied to me - it seems like people on Reddit like the parrot the “overpopulation” thing without really understanding it or even considering the reality of the situation.
It's ethical for future generations. We are massively over populated as it is. We are messing up this world beyond belief and climate change is a big thing that is right here, right now. There will be no future earth as we know it soon. The kids you may have would have no pampered life we have now..i hate to imagine what the world will be in 50 years..even less.
Then maybe we should find solutions for climate change and overpopulation instead of just trying to keep people from having kids. Less people won’t solve the climate change problem any faster - and like I said: overpopulation is more of a 3rd world problem, where the infrastructure cannot support large populations yet.
Less people won’t solve the climate change problem
No, but your kids will never have to deal with the social, ethic, economic and environmental fallout that is coming this century. I feel like the biggest favour I can do for kids is not ever having any.
I sure would've preferred my parents not to put me in the middle of this mess.
A solution to overpopulation IS to have no kids.....or adoption. A solution to climate change IS having no kids. Less resources being used up..resources that are already close to breaking point.
You’re vastly oversimplifying the causes of climate change and overpopulation, it does not just boil down to less people = good. Not sure who told you that.
I'm not saying it is the only solution. By no means is that what i mean. But it would help greatly.
It really wouldn’t. People keep parroting this whole “overpopulation” thing on Reddit without even understanding what they’re talking about.
You cannot stop people having kids, especially in underdeveloped countries. This in and of itself is a big problem even today, so people in 1st world countries remaining childfree isn’t going to help with issues in other countries.
As I said before, a lot of the overpopulation issue is due to infrastructure, not raw space. Underdeveloped countries do not have the resources to hold large amounts of people.
Fossil fuels will be used up eventually no matter how many people there are. Trying to reduce the population is a less than efficient strategy for a long term problem.
These sorts of “have less kids” ideas are just really naive and unrealistic. We need to find other solutions that don’t involve trying to control the one thing all life is programmed to do.
https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/population_and_sustainability/climate/
I am not saying you are incorrect..you do have some good points but please read the article to see where i am coming from.
I understand what you're saying but my point is that stopping population growth is a short-term solution for a long-term problem, and it's just not realistic. We should be focusing on reducing our carbon footprint, bringing underdeveloped areas up to standard and finding long-term solutions for a growing population. Trying to tell people "stop having kids, go adopt" isn't going to do much of anything considering a lot of these overpopulation issues exist in areas with poor sexual education.
He's vastly oversimplifying the causes and vastly overstating what is known to be the effect. No one has any clue what the real consequences of climate change are going to look like, and the idea that we're already badly overpopulated is likewise not demonstrable.
But even if it were, to suggest that the first world--where emissions standards are higher and environmental quality better than anywhere else on earth--are the ones who need to stop procreating, is laughable. It positively reeks of self-loathing
No its not, this leads to more problems once people stop having kids you're left without a younger generation to replace the old one.
The environmental impact of a "first world" child is significantly more than that of a "third world" child.
So, why are first world countries accepting migrants? Won't those people use resources in the same way and the result is the same, and your sacrifice did nothing because your countries leaders want to lower labor costs and keep housing, etc. Increasing in value?
Not as much as you’d think - and then we should find steps to reduce our environmental impact as a WHOLE instead of entertaining the impossible idea of telling people to stop having kids.
I personally don’t care to adopt or foster a child. I’d rather have my own. Nothing wrong with that.
Nothing wrong with that, as long as you are aware it's a less selfless choice when your only justification is preferring your own genes.
edit: to clarify, I'm not being passive aggressive, I'm perfectly okay with selfishness, just not with hypocrisy
What? Passing on genes is the whole point of everything that's alive.
So life's only "point" is... perpetuating life? A+ logic right there.
If that was all there is to it, why do humans do literally anything that reduces their reproductive success? Like eating unhealthy food? Or smoking? Or drinking? Or actively avoiding having kids? Why do they stop at 2-3 kids instead of having as many as physically possible?
I didn't make the rules.
Well many people clearly break the rules then. Not very effective rules we are talking.
It's almost like as humans we have better judgement than to just obey their instincts.
Or maybe it's just survival of the fittest out here.
Is that supposed to make you feel superior somehow? Who will hand you the medal, evolution itself? If only anything in the universe actually cared about the "fittest".
It don't make me anything. You either adapt and spread your genes with the best mate you can find or you don't and they die off and nature carries on without them.
I don't know why you are freaking out, it's common knowledge.
I'm not freaking out, I'm just put off when people use that as a phrase to imply spreading your genes makes you "better". To whom? Evolution? Too bad inanimate concepts don't give a shit.
There are also a lot of instincts which are socially not acceptable, so implying that just because it is a natural instinct, it is a perfectly reasonable thing is fallacious. Is it also okay to rape people and kill people you dislike? Also perfectly natural instincts.
You have some sort of inferiority complex. I never said anything was better or worse. You either adapt or you die. It's that's simple.
If you can't adapt to the situation and find a mate your genes get kicked out of the pool. As far as I know, every organism on the entire planet Earth does everything it can to the best of it's ability to not get kicked out of the pool. Not everybody wins, and that is evolution.
Furthermore, if your natural instinct is to rape and kill people instead of working together in a social hierarchy that gives each individual a way better chance of survival...You might want to go talk to somebody about that before you hurt someone.
You have some sort of inferiority complex. I never said anything was better or worse.
No, that's why I used the word implied. I've never seen that phrase used by people (outside of documentaries) without a sense of smugness.
As far as I know, every organism on the entire planet Earth does everything it can to the best of it's ability to not get kicked out of the pool.
False. You should know better than to make blanket absolute statements that can be proved wrong with a single counter example (vasectomies and tubals exist).
I don't give a crap about the gene pool, I give a crap about myself, and my genes aren't even remotely "I". When I die, I die, I couldn't be more indifferent to "my genes living on". The air I breathed out or the bacteria that eat my corpse will also keep living on.
It just seems to me like a desperate consolation prize of people who cannot come to terms with their mortality. Even if genes were "I", only a small portion of them gets passed on. We all have literally millions or billions of ancestors, why would we think a single one matters? Why would I think my genes are special?
As far as I know, every organism on the entire planet Earth does everything it can to the best of it's ability to not get kicked out of the pool.
I've never heard a less scientifically factual statement spewed from someone who thinks he knows what he's talking about.
What did I say that wasn't true?
Well I and millions of others without children are not doing anything to ensure our genes stay in the gene pool for humans. So your statement is literally not true.
Nature don't care. You don't breed you don't survive. The variation of people that have that drive will carry on. Not every genetic combination works. Hell, entire species have gone extinct.
It's not a good or bad thing, it's the way it is.
Your lack of empathy is disturbing. Too bad you weren't born an pig so your personality would suit you.
Nah, I'm a good dude.
Gregor Mendel, father of genetics as a science, was a friar. He vowed to never have children. You wouldn't even have the scientific concept of genes if it wasn't for him, let alone the notion that spreading them is all that matters in life.
Don't you just love when someone bases his purpose of life on the findings of someone who chose to follow the opposite? But hey, it's common knowledge, you have to be ignorant to disagree.
If it wasn't a big deal he wouldn't have had to vow it.
It changes nothing whether he'd vow it or just choose not to have sex. Wittgenstein, an influential german philosopher, also chose not to have sexual partners. Same for Kafka. Based on your logic, none of those people are worth anything because they chose not to have offspring or even have sex. They just didn't feel like doing it.
How do you know that Mendel had to vow it and not just formalize something he already wanted to do it anyway?
I didn't say anything about a persons worth. If you don't breed your line ends. That's all there is to it.
And what exactly is the relevance of even bringing this to the discussion?
The point of being a human is to do stuff other than what we're programmed to. Duh?
Lol watch idiocracy. We want smart people having more kids so the gene pool doesn’t go to shit ha
r/antinatalism
Yup.
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Agree and noted. Edited the post.
Nah dog. I'm having my own kids.
Wrong. More people need to have more kids.
How so?
Many populations in the developed world are in rapid decline. This could be disastrous economically when your aging workforce retires and there are not enough people to replace them.
More importantly, we're called by Scripture to be fruitful and multiply. Children are a blessing.
I'm pretty sure automation will take care of this issue in another disastrous way.
No, some people need to have more kids. If the left wants to abstain themselves out of child rearing, all the better for the human race.
This is bad advice if you are a responsible adult and are going to push responsibility on your kids. The Native populations are naturally decreasing in every developed country anyway, so I would rather consider letting less skilled immigrants into your country because with the extra utility they have in a developed country they have more kids.
I know everyone hates hearing it, but if we're talking ethics, honestly we probably should all be vegan. Or at least figure out sustainable farming. I like meat too, but it's hard to argue in favour of the ethics of the meat industry.
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Eating less meat, and meat that's from ~50 miles of where you live is a much easier pill to swallow than full-blown veganism, but with a lot of the health and environmental benefits.
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At this point, you've got momentum. For most people though, it's really hard to drop all of the habits and preferences that they grew up with. If it was that easy, healthier diets (vegan or not) would be a lot more prevalent.
I don't know if you have ever tried going vegan but it was extremely easy for me too. YMMV but I don't see how what you said is helpful.
I was pointing out the difference between changing the course that the cruise ship is moving in and abandoning it for the lifeboats. The ship doesn't appear to be sinking to most people, so it's easier to stop driving at the iceberg than it is to say "we might hit that iceberg, get in the lifeboats".
Actually, as a vegan, I agree with you. You get a lot of gatekeeping in the vegan community which is not at all helpful. I'll always try and encourage people who engage me in conversation on the subject (which happens frequently), but I'd never slate them for having drastically cut back on meat or, in one case, cut out all dairy and meat besides fish just because the haven't gone the whole way.
I've found the best thing to do is just to be an advert for veganism basically. Imagine if a company advertised their product by berating people for not owning it already?
I've got a bunch of friends who are or have been vegan, but honestly, nothing has turned me off of veganism nearly as much as vegans on Reddit who are so inflexible that they won't even try to get new people into veganism unless they're willing to avoid eating anything that casts a shadow.
It's like they're trying to turn people away from it on purpose.
My girlfriend uses facebook and she complains about the same thing all the time. Someone will go onto a vegan group asking for advice and bang, if it's not "I've gone 100% vegan" then the swarm descends. The worst part is that if you defend them, you're apparently as bad.
I will say that only a small minority of vegans are actually like this, and in fact none that I know personally are like that at all. That minority are just super vocal online.
I am not philosophically opposed to the idea of veganism - everyone has the right to make that choice. But I need to eat 240 g of protein per day to keep up my lifting progress, and that just isn't realistic to me without meat and eggs!
There are plenty of vegan weightlifters and that's too much protein.
I am about 240 lbs / 110 kg. I participate in powerlifting competitions at that weight, so I tend to have a "walking around" weight of 248-250 lbs. I perform and recover best at closer to 1g of protein per 1 lb of bodyweight, a ratio I have arrived at after a few years of tinkering and adjusting. I digest milk just fine, and drink about 3 gallons a week.
It's not that it is impossible to source that much protein from plants, it is just really unpalatable for me. It would drastically decrease my quality of life. So... some animals gotta die. I attempt to source my food from ethical sources - I have family members who are hunters and I buy a cow and a half of butchered beef from the farm across the way from my parents house about once a year. I see his herd and how they live, and it's pretty sweet for a cow - wandering around big open Virginia pastures for their whole life.
The American Dietary Association has issued a peer-reviewed statement declaring that vegan diets are appropriate for any athletic activities.
If you wanna see it for yourself, here it is. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864
It's not that it is impossible to source that much protein from plants, it is just really unpalatable for me. It would drastically decrease my quality of life. So... some animals gotta die. I attempt to source my food from ethical sources - I have family members who are hunters and I buy a cow and a half of butchered beef from the farm across the way from my parents house about once a year. I see his herd and how they live, and it's pretty sweet for a cow - wandering around big open Virginia pastures for their whole life.
I have also found that studies are great for populations, but the applications break down at the level of the individual. For example - BMI is great for studying population obesity levels. I have a BMI of 31 (obese) because I am 6'2" and 245 lbs (188 cm & ~101 kg), but I also hover between 12% - 14% bodyfat and have healthy levels of cholesterol. By BMI, I am a typical obese American, part of the growing health crisis. BUT my other stats tell a different story. I feel much better - more energy, better mobility, better everything - when I am eating a meat and protein based diet as opposed to the semi-vegetarian diets I have tried in the past.
It's not that it is impossible to source that much protein from plants, it is just really unpalatable for me.
I'd have to ask you what's ethical about paying for the death (painless or not) of a being with a will to live just because of your taste preferences. What is it about living a good life that makes it okay to take that life away from them just because it's more palatable? Do you have pets? If so, don't they live a good life? Would that make it okay for you to kill and eat them while they're still healthy (cows are killed, both in factory or family farms, after living only 1/4 of their lifespan) ?
I have also found that studies are great for populations, but the applications break down at the level of the individual. For example - BMI is great for studying population obesity levels. I have a BMI of 31 (obese) because I am 6'2" and 245 lbs (188 cm & ~101 kg), but I also hover between 12% - 14% bodyfat and have healthy levels of cholesterol. By BMI, I am a typical obese American, part of the growing health crisis. BUT my other stats tell a different story. I feel much better - more energy, better mobility, better everything - when I am eating a meat and protein based diet as opposed to the semi-vegetarian diets I have tried in the past.
The criteria applied for the studies I base myself on to advocate veganism aren't similar to BMI. They're multifaceted criteria that control for a wide variety of factors, from environmental to individual, from genetics to lifestyle.
Sure, they may be different from BMI - but no dietary study has definitive conclusions that are universally applicable. If you can provide a study that concludes that vegetarianism is the best diet F r everyone under all conditions, then I'll honestly reconsider. But in my personal experience, it does not work for me.
This is a peer-reviewed (many health professionals and health researchers have reviewed this statement and its data to approve it) statement from the American Dietary Association. It goes into great detail about how vegan diets are adequate for all stages of life and all lifestyles, when planned properly. http://jandonline.org/article/S0002-8223(09)00700-7/fulltext#sec1
By my calculation you must be around 293 lbs, weightlifters require 1.8g protein per 1 kg they weigh. If you really are that large 240g of vegan protein would be easy to obtain with the amount of calories you must consume everyday.
I am about 240 lbs / 110 kg. I participate in powerlifting competitions at that weight, so I tend to have a "walking around" weight of 248-250 lbs. I perform and recover best at closer to 1g of protein per 1 lb of bodyweight, a ratio I have arrived at after a few years of tinkering and adjusting.
It's not that it is impossible to source that much protein from plants, it is just really unpalatable for me. It would drastically decrease my quality of life. So... some animals gotta die. I attempt to source my food from ethical sources - I have family members who are hunters and I buy a cow and a half of butchered beef from the farm across the way from my parents house about once a year. I see his herd and how they live, and it's pretty sweet for a cow - wandering around big open Virginia pastures for their whole life.
What is it about living a decent life as an animal that justifies taking that life away from that animal for no reason other than culinary pleasure? Why providing that animal with human treatment makes it okay to take away their right to live and die of natural causes, just like you and me?
Given the fact that different people have done the math to you and laid down the science proving that you don't need animal products for your weightlifting goals, at this point there is no reason not to go vegan, man. You can be just as strong and actually healthier.
no reason other than culinary pleasure
This is a pretentious argument, as it assumes everyone can thrive on an identical lifestyle.
Animals do not have the right to live and die of natural causes like you and I do. They are a resource just like any other. I am doing my best for me and my family to eat these ethically sourced meats, and we avoid any factory farmed sources of this food to the extent possible.
Why do you assume that a "natural" death is preferable to the animal?
You can be just as strong and actually healthier.
I have tried plant based diets in the past - the results are dramatically different for me. Studies on populations are just that - statistical groupings. I bet if you plumbed the data on them, you would find a statistically significant amount of participants who experienced results in direct conflict with the study findings!
at this point there is no reason not to go vegan, man
In my own experience, I am weaker, more lethargic, and more prone to illness when eating a plant based diet.
Animals do not have the right to live and die of natural causes like you and I do. They are a resource just like any other.
What argument do you have to dismiss their will to live, ability to experience emotions and other properties shared with the homo sapiens species, to classify these sentient living beings as resources while you and your family are the harvesters?
I am doing my best for me and my family to eat these ethically sourced meats, and we avoid any factory farmed sources of this food to the extent possible.
Even if it was true that you're doing your best (while I don't even have to do my best to be a vegan, reasonable effort suffices) Why do you make such an effort to be ethical towards something you have just classified as ''resources like any other''? It's almost like you don't really see them as just resources like any other...
I have tried plant based diets in the past - the results are dramatically different for me. Studies on populations are just that - statistical groupings.
I'm not basing it only on these, there are also metabolic ward, in-patient studies that provide mechanistic, causality-based evidence to the claim that a vegan diet provides optimal health for virtually all humans.
I bet if you plumbed the data on them, you would find a statistically significant amount of participants who experienced results in direct conflict with the study findings! Appeal to probability fallacy. Also, the burden of proof lies on you. Besides, as stated above, mechanistic evidence is also provided.
In my own experience, I am weaker, more lethargic, and more prone to illness when eating a plant based diet.
The ever-growing scientific consensus leaves only one answer to that, which is you didn't plan your diet well. If you wish, I can direct you to vegan discord servers where people with a lot more knowledge on nutrition than probably either of us can give you a hand on how to plan your diet.
What argument do you have to dismiss their will to live, ability to experience emotions and other properties shared with the homo sapiens species, to classify these sentient living beings as resources while you and your family are the harvesters?
I am an omnivore, as are my family members. As are you. That's not an opinion, it is an evolutionary fact. As such, I function best on a varied diet including meat. Not based on studies, this is based on my own personal experience.
I am an omnivore That's not an opinion Here's some modern science for you. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1312295/
An extract from the link in case you're feeling lazy:
Are human beings herbivores, carnivores, or omnivores?
''Although most of us conduct our lives as omnivores, in that we eat flesh as well as vegetables and fruits, human beings have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores (2). The appendages of carnivores are claws; those of herbivores are hands or hooves. The teeth of carnivores are sharp; those of herbivores are mainly flat (for grinding). The intestinal tract of carnivores is short (3 times body length); that of herbivores, long (12 times body length). Body cooling of carnivores is done by panting; herbivores, by sweating. Carnivores drink fluids by lapping; herbivores, by sipping. Carnivores produce their own vitamin C, whereas herbivores obtain it from their diet. Thus, humans have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores.''
Also, if I were an omnivore, I'd be dying right now, since I've been a vegan for 3 years and a vegetarian for 9. We're from the same species, so what works for me and thousands of other vegans works for you. If you're gonna say that veganism isn't for everyone, here's a statement from the American Nutrition Association proving that it's not true: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864
And which is it? At one point, you say it's not an opinion, then you say it's based on personal experience and not studies...? You seem confused.
My personal experience is not an opinion - it is a small sample size of one.
A small sample size of one is less than an opinion, it's an impression. If an opinion isn't enough to justify the decision to end the life of a sentient being, an impression is even less of a justification. You wouldn't accept an impression as a justification for ending the life of your pet dog, for example.
Also, just to get back on that notion of grass-fed animals and avoidance of factory farming, no amount of good treatment justifies taking the life of a being that has a consciousness.
also, just to get back on that notion of grass-fed animals and avoidance of factory farming, no amount of good treatment justifies taking the life of a being that has a consciousness.
That's our fundamental difference of opinion. I don't agree, obviously, and there's not real evidence you could present to contradict my opinion.
Also, I would have to be an insane person to have a real personal experience, that I was present and aware of, and disregard it because someone had a study.
So do you have the same opinion about shooting your own dog in the head, instantly and painlessly killing him while he's still healthy and has many years of healthy life ahead of him, just based on the fact that you gave him a good life?
Also, in regards to personal experience, nobody's telling you to flat out disregard it. The conclusions to be drawn from it, however, are logically unreliable. What scientific research does is show you which experiences come from a wider phenomenon and which ones come from isolated events. I could have the personal experience, based on isolated events, that all Americans are misogynistic, homophobic racists, while that was just based on one negative experience with a couple Americans I've met and the majority of the other Americans aren't like that. Would it be fair for me to disregard facts and studies proving me wrong and instead condemn every person from your country based on my one real personal experience? Can one perspective, taken from one moment (be it days, weeks of a month) where you clearly did something wrong in planning your vegan diet, define that diet as summarily, irrevocably dismissed as unfitting for your life? Even when it's the most environmentally sustainable and morally practicable diet?
This kind of atittude towards meat-eaters isn't helpful either. Not everyone can quit cold like you did, and not everyone will find it as easy as you found it. What you should be encouraging is a reduction of meat at first, and then a transition into, hopefully, veganism.
What attitude? Just my experience and I even said ymmv. Just trying to encourage people to eat less meat is all I'm doing! 🤣
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I agree. Both of our statements are accurate.
I would agree with your point but argue that there are more important reasons than cruelty (the environment, antibiotic resistance).
Also, this isn't realistic for a lot of people, unfortunately (whether it's for reasons they can or can't control). But if everyone who eats meat cut down to say, 75% of what they ate before, a substantial difference would be made.
stop with this farming is cruel bullshit. Yeah, it's dirty. Yeah, it can be violent. But it's nothing compared to the cruelty of nature. My animals are dead before they can feel it. Conversely, here's two komodo dragons eating a deer alive, ripping chunks of it's guts from it's still breathing torso[NSFL] the same way essentially every animal dies in nature.
But yeah, farming is the brutal existence. Go volunteer at a farm, maybe then the bullshit you spread will do some good.
edit: Your downvotes don't dissuade me. Farming is a far cushier life than nature. Pigs, when set free, grow tusks and coarse hairs as defensive mechanisms. You think that's because farm life is so tough they gotta throw on the gang colours when they get out? cause I don't.
Get back to me when Komodo dragons start building factory farms.
That might be an argument for hunting, but not raising animals. It's not like if you didn't breed these animals yourself they would be born and killed by Komodo dragons.
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So first it was because they live brutal existences in evil farms. Now it's cause there's a price on their head.
I was here to talk about animal treatment, but you've changed the subject on me because I ripped your first point apart. Animals in farms, for the VAST majority, have a less stressful life and death than their wild counterparts.
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I disagree with you. We're as much in this mix as they are. Just because we developed the mental capacity to manipulate and 'hunt' our meat by getting it fat and surrounding it with fences doesn't make us unethical, unnatural or monsters at all. Plenty of animals corner their prey, we just found a way to do it without freaking them out.
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That's a fair point. We are smart enough to get sustainable nutrition from non-meat sources. But just because we're smart enough to do something doesn't mean we need to do that thing. And I know you'll just say the same thing back, but that's a bit of an impasse because now we've reached the point where it's basically just a choice.
And just because it's a choice doesn't mean that it doesn't have consequences. This is not "I like red and you like blue", this is a matter of literal life or death.
Sorry, forgot plants weren't alive. My bad.
Buddy... pal... you don't give two shits about plants. You are not a plant rights activist. Just stop and listen to what you're saying, and stop using this shitty red herring.
Is your argument against veganism really plants are alive? You know corn has no central nervous system right? Also if you're really concerned about plant lives you should stop eating meat because far more plants "Die" to feed animals then humans.
You are arguing effectively, and that's nice to see.
Unfortunately you have reached and are defending the wrong conclusion.
I believe, because of your excellent skills, that you will get there.
Why would they have that right? What granted them that right, and how?
Without human interference, you might still be living in a shack near a river or forest for sustenance, at which point you'd most likely hunt, fish and forage for your food and to feed your family.
Comfie lifestyles and the ability to even sit at your digital device came from the ability for humans to feed an entire population, house them and build a society from. Part of that, and always dependent on your location, has seen both agriculture as well as hunting as the only means of survival.
Also, without human interference, lots of wildlife could go unchecked and your fields would be trampled, your food stripped at the stock and the animals running rampant through your countryside.
I'm not advocating for the current meat industry, rather I'm saying that your core values seem to be built around the society you grew up in, which just so happens to be within a reasonable distance to a food market of sorts.
I'm also not denouncing vegetarianism nor veganism because those are choices which are the result of a society which have had the farming industry give them the opportunity to be picky about what they eat.
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for me
Exactly.
There is no need for you to breed and kill for meat.
You have this option because of societal circumstances. The only reason you have a choice is because you were raised to have one. A rather large portion of the planet cannot survive without the hunt or breeding of animals for meat and for farm work.
The justification is that, as a part of nature, we should not act like some elevated alien race.
I'll never understand why people make this argument since so much about our civilization is already unnatural. We've actually removed ourselves from nature about as far as our current technology will take us.
I get that we are a part of the universe and so our progression will always be a facet of that wider nature, but if it's not a reason to throw my computer in the trash then it's not a reason for me to be ignore ethical considerations either.
We are nature. Therefore, everything we create is nature. You can use words dishonestly and colloquially but it doesnt change the fact that we and everything we create were born from this planet.
I’m not refuting that at all. What I’m saying is that saying “we are nature” is either an excuse for everything or it’s not an excuse at all. I’m guessing you wouldn’t want to justify something like rape in the same way, even though really that is just nature.
Where in your mind could that justify rape? Senselessly harming another human can never be rationalized. Us creating cities and power can.
We are the only hope for life on this planet. Given the vastness of space it is a mathematical impossibility for there not to be an Earth destroying meteor on its way here right now. We can split the life on this planet somewhere else meaning we are its sole hope for continued reproduction. It doesnt get more ethical than that.
I understand all of that and agree with most of it but... how does any of that factor into rationalising eating meat? That’s what someone was claiming was justifiable under the banner nature, not building cities or evacuating the planet.
We are predators. We have meat tearing teeth and eyes on the front of our head. We are designed to eat meat. We are animals who are supposed to eat other animals. If you are gonna bitch at us go bitch at Pumas too.
Just because we can kill animals for food doesn't make it ethical to do so.
You also have an appendix, which you don't need.
And are you saying that you have the same intelligence as a large cat?
Nope, way more intelligence. Thats why I buy meat from a supermarket, hunt with firearms, and am not in danger of extinction.
You truly are a wonder of nature.
Bullshit. First of all, you can't honestly tell me that our puny canines are anywhere near those of a lion or a bear. There are also predators who have eyes on the side (sharks are an example), and if we're going to go with the anatomy argument, explain why our jaws move from side to side and we have molars, and our long intestinal tracts. You know, like an herbivore?
You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Lions and bears kill with their teeth, we kill with tools. Our front teeth are also designed to tear meet, not only our canines.
Sharks live in the ocean, of course their anatomy will be different.
Wolves have molars and our jaws also move up and down bud. Its called being an omnivore.
Yeah we're omnivores, but just because we can eat meat doesn't mean we have to. Multiple renowned health organizations have posted study after study showing that a vegan diet is healthy. Just admit you eat meat for the taste, and not because of lions or cavemen or any of that bullshit.
This argument is over, because you're a fucking moron. Vegans are right, you are wrong.
Man all that reason and logic of calling me a moron is so compelling! Im going to eat a big ol veal steak in your honor.
Your type is always so entertaining haha. The game is: how many messages does it take to whittle their arguments down to some variation of “but bacon” and then watch them lash out from their corner. I wish I could discard logic as easily, life would be a lot simpler. The guy above is right, the conversation is over.
You arent very smart are you? My argument was never wittled down, proven wrong, or reduced to but bacon. My argument is that we are designed to eat meat. This is a biological fact. I only said im going to eat a veal steak to be as offensive as possible to a vegan.
Think before you say shit from now on. Im guessing you make yourself look stupid like this pretty often.
Haha what, okay, first you reply to:
I get that we’re a part of the universe and so our progression will always be a facet of that wider nature
by saying literally the same thing but as an argument for some reason, then when I point out that you can’t really use that argument to justify one act of violence but not another, you then act surprised that I brought that up and decide we’re talking about power supply and cities.
When I then bring you back on track and point out that we’re talking about meat consumption, you list a bunch of irrelevant biological points that have 0 to do with ethics, especially since we can get our nutrition elsewhere anyway, and eventually devolve into telling another guy that you’re going to eat a steak in his honour.
If you can’t see how all over the place you are and how you eventually got frustrated by your own non-sensical arguments, then I’m not surprised you think I’m dumb. It reminds me of the expression my old cat used to give me when I used to work out in the living room as if to say “what are you doing, you’re not achieving anything.”
Biology and ethics are linked. We eat meat. We are designed to eat meat and its what got us to this point. Animals are made of meat. Animals eat each other constantly. We are animals. Plants are just as alive as animals. They communicate and share resources through their root structures. They have complex chemical reactions to outside stimuli. If you criticize me for putting one life form above another then look within yourself as it is exactly what you are doing.
I’m not getting drawn into an argument comparing animals to plants, when on a spectrum of flowers to humans they’d be right next to us.
I’m guessing no one told you but you don’t have to spear the food in the freezer isle... you can just take that stuff to the checkout.
Your only issue is that we a conscious beings who don't need to fucking rely on them for food. The farming of animals is much less efficient than plants. We have the choice and the capacity to not be cruel, and therefore it is a decision on our part to be cruel. Just because it happens in nature, in a different context in woody different conditions, doesn't mean it's comparable in any way. We can make it better, ethically, economically, and efficiently, and thus we should.
Do you not think animal suffering is a bad thing?
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n...no? did you read what I said? I said we do it better than nature already. It's a shit point to say farms are cruel, cause they're a cushy existence compared to the stresses of sleeping under a tree every night with predators around.
Have you seen how they farm chicken? Do you know how they get milk?
I've been reading your comments and I just have to ask- have you ever actually watched any footage of what happens in factory farms? It's fucking horrifying, and objectively cruel. 90-99% of meat we consume comes from factory farms. There is no justification for what these animals suffer through.
Brutality is no longer necessary is the point. This day in age, at least in america and other first world countries, there is no good reason to eat meat other than you want to. With a little nutritional knowledge and meal prep, all nutrition requirements can be met using plants. Plants use way less land, water, and energy, and can also be farmed indoors (which is 96% more efficient.) In the long run, going plant based is best for the earth, and arguably the people. Also the animals... But I know not everyone will care about that.
It doesn't matter if nature is cruel or not. What matters is what we do
they are still going to be killed you know, just because you yourself are a vegan wont stop the animal from being killed. at that point NOT eating the meat is just as bad as killing the animal, your just letting the animal die for nothing.
You seem to have a weak grip on how change in the world happens. If people take up vegetarianism and veganism companies will stop making meat because there's no demand for it.
The notion that eating an animal makes its death meaningful is subjective, arbitrary and absurd. The animal had already given a meaning to his own life by making choices, as basic as they might be (what to eat, who to reproduce with, which group of animals to join, etc). If you are to ignore the meaning that the animal has given to ascribe your own arbitrary, anthropocentric meaning, then there is no logical reason for anyone to refrain from doing the same to you. Considering the fact that you are also sponsoring the killing of the animal, if I were to eat executed convicts regardless of whether I'm pro death penalty or not, your very own logic would validate that.
Sorry but our bodies aren't meant to eat only plants. We need meat.
False
Source?
Our brain size increased due to meat consumption. This is a fact.
http://time.com/4252373/meat-eating-veganism-evolution/
However, eliminating all animal products from the diet increases the risk of certain nutritional deficiencies. Micronutrients of special concern for the vegan include vitamins B-12 and D, calcium, and long-chain n-3 (omega-3) fatty acids.
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/5/1627S/4596952
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19562864/
There are other ways of getting those nutrients you listed, and they are very easy. It requires more attention to your diet, and hasn't always been viable due to scarcity of resources, but that's no longer the case.
"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, supplements or fortified foods can provide useful amounts of important nutrients. An evidence- based review showed that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes. The results of an evidence-based review showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease. Vegetarians also appear to have lower low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension and type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. Furthermore, vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates. Features of a vegetarian diet that may reduce risk of chronic disease include lower intakes of saturated fat and cholesterol and higher intakes of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, soy products, fiber, and phytochemicals. The variability of dietary practices among vegetarians makes individual assessment of dietary adequacy essential. In addition to assessing dietary adequacy, food and nutrition professionals can also play key roles in educating vegetarians about sources of specific nutrients, food purchase and preparation, and dietary modifications to meet their needs."
Thanks for the source. Although I agree we should consume more plant based diet on average. But we must supplement meat too. Completely removing meat is wrong and not natural to our bodies. Maybe after a certain age we should more towards plant based diet. I am still not convinced on plant based diet (complete). Specially since I eat once a day. Getting as much nutrients with less food should be a priority. Also fats. Our bodies should run on them and not glucose. If you read more on diets you should see that supplement some meat is necessary.
https://www.npr.org/2010/08/02/128849908/food-for-thought-meat-based-diet-made-us-smarter
If you read more on diets you should see that supplement some meat is necessary.
But it is clearly not "necessary". Vegans and vegetarians are about as healthy as meat eaters on average - it's not like one of these groups is living twice as long as the other.
Well then I'm officially dead inside 👌😂
That's objectively not true. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864
''It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.''
False. Eating meat is slowly killing you. That's where heart attacks come from.
In access yes. that's a separate thing. Life style choice. I am talking about nutritional value of meat in moderate and recommended amount.
This research shows that meat consumption per se, regardless of being excessive or not, is directly associated with risks of heart disease and cancer. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3579947/
Here's another research proving virtually the same: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2803089/
Name at least a single scientific research proving that there is a recommended amount of meat or animal product consumption that's irreplaceable for optimal health.
veganism
reduce reuse recycle
carpooling
stop judging other people’s sexuality/sexual activities as long as they are safe and consensual
Stop eating animals. If you take a step back and really look, it's fucked up and unnecessary. Cue the downvotes.
Cue the downvotes.
Something I've greatly appreciated about this thread is how many replies stating that cutting out meat/animal products is an ethical life choice have been upvoted. Woohoo!
I still do, honestly. I admit, I'm shitty
Everyone is upvoting the shit out of those comments. Over half the comments are exactly identical to yours. I'm all for a good cause, but don't play the victim card when you have overwhelming support.
I read a bunch of comments before posting and didn't see any, or would not have posted. It's not a victim card it's how these conversations always go in my experience. Getting better, apparently.
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I respectfully disagree. It is dogma in western society, but after giving it years of thought and changing my personal habits it feels deeply immoral to me looking back. I know I am in the vast minority for that viewpoint but I haven't heard a solid argument for eating sentient animals when we have an embarrassment of riches to eat that don't require killing an animal simply because we can.
When there are few other options, eating meat on a subsistence level may be more of a survival necessity, but that is certainly not the case where I live.
I forgot to address your first point--yes, we have fucked up our own ecosystems. I don't think the way we often choose to manage that problem is always right either. Culling can be an important strategy but that's only tangential meat eating culture as a whole. The morality of culling can be debated too--even if it can be critical to managing ecosystems.
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Morality is about right and wrong behaviour, not just toward your own sepecies. Is it immoral to torture an animal? Of course. Why does "personhood" enter into it at all? what is your point?
There are some humans that are not sapient. If sapience is what determines moral status, then it is not unethical to murder a baby.
or indeed the extremely delicious severely disabled.
Grilling up a tasty handicapped steak as we speak
I mean, what if someone is just asleep? Does that count? For like....more than 8 hours. Without Snoring or anything sapient like that. I reckon I can eat them then.
Could have sworn I was in r/vegancirclejerk for a second there lol
You're right, those damn animals should thank us
Oh no man...don't you go there!...
It's sad that people make choices and condemn others without being informed of the reasons why we have to actually hunt some animals.
I'd love to see someone defend not having to eradicate a rat nest from a farm by killing them indiscriminately...
Pornography is pretty easy to access these days and that’s not great for children’s mental development, especially young men.
its also undeniable that it also promotes unrealistic depictions of sexual relationships as well
also, why is incest such a big thing on porn sites? its fucking gross, imo
This sounds very, religiousy, care to go more in depth?
I’m not religious at all actually, I grew up in a catholic environment but would associate myself as an atheist before a Christian.
I just think that an 8 year old boy seeing a woman getting throat jammed while simultaneously ass fucked isn’t very healthy for his sexual development.
Ohhhh, yeah 8 is bad, you said young men so I was thinking like 15,16,17 which is perfectly fine for them to see.
Going vegan. It will help reduce the suffering of sentient creatures, create less methane, a more potent green house gas than carbon, and would be more environmentally sustainable. Probably not going to happen though since people are addicted to meat and cheese and will use backwards rationalization to justify not getting rid of it.
Veganism and vegetarianism are becoming more popular over time though.
Just because you say I will justify eating meat by being backwards, I'm going to eat a 24oz porterhouse steak tonight.
Backwards rationalization. You're executing it perfectly.
Nah. I'm just doing it to hurt your fee fees.
What
It's kinda funny that meat-eaters think that, by not eating meat and other animal products, they'd be doing a favor to anyone more than to themselves. Avoiding erectile dysfunction, colon cancer and breast cancer is more a favor you do for yourself than to others. If your dick doesn't work, your girl will find another guy. If your prostate craps out, you'll be just another asshole being constantly fingered by doctors and if (in case you're a woman) your tits have to get cut off, bra factories will be saving money with you on single-tit pieces and maybe your man won't be noble enough to not switch you for a girl with a pair.
So, when you eat a steak, who's really on the shitty end of the stick here: vegans or you?
My dick is just fine thanks for your concern. How's being a weak, pasty, smelly little vegan pussy working for you?
My dick is just fine
For now. Mine, statistically, will be fine for far longer than yours.
Smelly
Meat eaters consume far more nitrogen from protein than vegans. That nitrogen is expelled through your pores and is characterized by the smell of BO. So yeah, vegans, for consuming a more reasonable amount of protein, aren't the smelly ones. Your insult backfired majestically, looking forward to the next one.
Pasty
All a vegan gotta do is consume beta-carotene rich plant-based foods. Anti-oxidants present in vegetables also make your skin look better in general. Bitchslapping some science into your retarded meathead is fun, let's see your next pearl of knowledge.
little
I'll go as far as to say that I'm an above average male, buddy :) But you work with what nature gave you (minus the dick-limpening and potentially size-reducing results of your meatard diet), buddy.
working for you
Ask my wife. She already bought a clone-a-willy so, as she says, she can ''keep enjoying it even if we break up''.
Talk more shit, failcock, I beg you.
Sounds delicious, make me one?
You got it dude!
Gosh. I would be remiss if I didn't mention veganism here.
The ethical impact of going vegan is wonderfully positive :)
I gotta ask, why go full hog and not just go veggie?
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That said, going vegetarian is a great choice too! I've started casually transitioning toward veganism over time (ie stopped buying milk/eggs for home use, but still eat prepared foods with animals products, plus cheese, and hope to cut those out as options become more accessible + palatable) but the reality is that being 100% vegan can be super inconvenient (both geographically and socially), comparatively expensive, and sometimes the food is just kind of terrible (although it seems to be improving every day, and there are definitely some good options out there now!)
Yes, veganism is the most ethical option, but those who take an all or nothing approach ("stop eating ALL animal products NOW or you're the literal devil") just push people even further away by making incremental changes seem worthless and being generally unbearable. Everything adds up, and you don't have to go 0 to 100 in one go to make a difference!
(Not that you were doing that at all, just my 2cents!)
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I’m vegetarian and try to only buy the best sourced milk and eggs I can. I hope to continue eating eggs from my own hens as soon as I have the land, I would like to have my own dairy cow too. If I can give the animals the care and attention they deserve and have my milk and eggs that would be the best of both worlds.
It would be really difficult to get ethical backyard animals. If you're super committed to vegetarianism, lots of research into the industry your animals are coming from would be a good idea!
So if I rescued a dairy cow, rare but it happens, and got chicks from someone I know who has chickens what would be unethical?
In order to determine if it would be ethical we'd have to ask some questions. How is your cow going to produce milk? If you purchase only hens from your acquaintance, what happens to the roosters? Have the hens been debeaked?
The part where you have to make sure the cow is constantly impregnated to keep giving milk is not something I find super ethical.
Obviously I don't think it's ethical to keep animals to eat their products, I don't think we have a right to them (if I did I wouldn't be vegan!). You need to figure out why you think it is.
There’s absolutely no reason that should be obvious to me. I don’t think there’s any harm to a chicken to eat it’s eggs if it’s laying them anyway, if they aren’t fertilized they will just be wasted. I could provide them a happy existence and have eggs because it would make less ethical sense not to eat them if it means using other resources.
Do you believe having pets is unethical? Do you believe it’s unethical to feed your dog animals?
I just meant it's obvious because I'm vegan, I'm not having a go mate.
Maybe I've misread your tone, but it sounds like if I tell you why I think that, you're going to get offended anyway, and this thread has already knocked years off my life.
I’m not going to get offended but I might call you ridiculous. We can’t live at the expense of nothing.
Even if you don’t eat honey or bees wax your vegetables or plants were probably grown with bee labor.
If you provide an animal a good and fulfilling life there’s no reason you can’t get something (eggs, milk) out of the relationship too.
Right, fine, here we go.
We can’t live at the expense of nothing
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Even if you don’t eat honey or bees wax your vegetables or plants were probably grown with bee labor.
It doesn't, however, involve taking their food and causing colony collapse. Also, honey is like the easiest thing to cut out, there's no reason not to.
If you provide an animal a good and fulfilling life there’s no reason you can’t get something (eggs, milk) out of the relationship too.
I suspect this is a difference in mindsets. I just don't think we have a right to take their secretions (aside from the fact that that's just a bit weird).
If you want to give an animal a good life, give an animal a good life. Let the chickens eat their eggs to replace the minerals they lose through laying them, let the calves drink their mother's milk and lose the mindset that they're here as our commodities.
The assumption that you have a right to their bodies and to take something from them is an assumption that most people make, but it's not really based on anything other than the fact that we're taught it from birth. It takes considerably less for me to justify not doing it, than it takes to justify doing it – particularly when there are so many alternatives.
You can call me ridiculous now if you like.
The only thing I’d really argue about is taking honey causing colony collapse. Isn’t it in the beekeeper’s interest not to take so much that it damages the colony?
It's considered one of the factors in causing CCD due to the use of antibiotics, long distance transport of hives (spreads disease), selective breeding causing lack of genetic diversity and the pesticides found in the high fructose corn syrup used as the honey replacement.
It's also so easy to avoid that it's just not worth the moral inconsistency for me (i.e. animals as commodities).
I've been vegetarian for nearly three years, but I eat a lot of cereal, so I end up using quite a bit of milk. I recently switched to almond milk- it's pretty pricey, but I'm really glad I did it and wish I had much sooner.
I recently switched to almond milk
Chidi...?
Kudos to you for making the switch! I go through almond milk quickly as well! I started making my own oat milk, it sounds pretty weird but it's really delicious and super cost effective
Vegetarian and I still drink cows milk but sometimes run out and use my gfs almond milk for cereal, it really tastes no different in cereal.
It really doesn't!
Agreed, the bigger step is getting people to be vegetarian. Vegan is bonus points. Ethically it may be loads better, but environmentally the big win is getting to vegetarian.
Vegetarianism is certainly better for the environment than not being vegetarian, but there is still a significant environmental difference between veganism and vegetarianism.
That said, there are many ways to make an "environmental impact" estimation, the video shows only one such rough estimation, and green house gas emissions are only one factor.
I don't find a vegan diet more expensive at all, I will however agree about its relative inconvenience. Me and my wife stay under $50 a week total, and could go lower if we need too.
You spend less than 3.50 dollars a day on food? With all respect, that's a lie.
The only thing not included in that figure is one date a week, and if we decide to eat out for lunch one day it doesn't come out of our groceries, but otherwise we spend less than fifty a week on groceries.
I broadly agree but as someone who has owned chicken I can confirm that they lay many more eggs than just 12 a year
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would it be less detrimental to their bodies if they never existed at all?
would you rather live a short life full of torture and captivity with literally nothing good ever happening to you or not be born at all
this is very subjective. one may argue that a human's life is pretty hard and full of torture like commute, sickness, work, etc.
shouldn't we offer non-existence to all these people in mexico or india where literally nothing ever good (according to modern western standards) is happening to them?
You’re comparing commute to being caged for your entire life?
Most of those humans are still free to go and do other things, to find a mate of their choosing, to raise their own young to adulthood, and die themselves of old age.
What livestock is even one of those things true for?
you can't retroactively offer non-existence lol
one may argue that a human's life is pretty hard and full of torture like commute, sickness, work, etc.
It just doesn't compare to factory farmed animals though. Honestly watch some videos, it's horrific what happens
This is a false dichotomy. You can't be detrimental to something that never existed.
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If you were a chicken, you wouldn't want to be abused. Have some empathy.
Chickens can be as affectionate and caring as cats and dogs. They’re not as dumb as some would have you think.
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Pigeons are one of the smartest bird species. They’ve been used to guide bombs, carry messages, and all sorts of neat stuff.
True. It's also quite a stretch to say domesticated animals that have been selectively bred for centuries have a "natural" lifetime of this or that.
Trouble is when you make this argument, some people think you're condoning intensive animal husbandry.
Personally in my country I don't have a problem with supporting the dairy industry in my country (Ireland), but that's because I grew up around it, have first hand experience with, and have studied the dairy industry (and also the other meat industries but I digress).
I assume most of the comments about the dairy industry are about the American dairy industry, and I can't comment on that because I have no experience with it. I can however comment on the Irish dairy industry; I don't consider it to be "inhumane" but I guess people can form their own opinion on that.
I watched the video you suggested and honestly either the American dairy industry is much worse than the Irish dairy industry, or they have a lot of facts simply wrong and others blown out of proportion (which wouldn't be that far fetched considering the video literally is pushing an agenda).
Anyway, here's some facts I can give relating to the "Dairy is Scary" video, again keep in mind this is all related to the Irish dairy industry:
"Bulls are jacked off for their semen" - Yep, this happens. I guess it comes down to if you consider this inhmane or not, I've only ever seen it being done once and they didn't have that anal thing in the video, they just had something which I can only describe as a "bull fleshlight"
"Male calves have their throats slit and are sold for veal" - This ones not true on Irish farms, at least not form the dozens of farms I've seen and studied. Irish consumers don't support the veal industry, I'm sure you could probably find some if you wanted to, but most places I've been to straight up don't sell it (even my local butcher wouldn't sell it). Most farms use what's known as a "dual purpose breed" which is one that produces less milk but has some muscle as well, this way male calves aren't useless. They're still sold for beef but aren't killed as calves.
"Calves are torn from their mothers almost as soon as they're born." - Kind of true but also there's a good bit of mistruth in this one so I'll give my best summary of it. When a calf is born the cow produces a "special" kind of milk known as "colostrum" this milk is much sweater than regular milk and contains many antibodies the calf needs to survive, so it must receive colostrum within the first 24 hours of birth. After that the calf stays with the cow for another couple of days, then the cow goes back in with the milking heard.
(still) The video says that cows "cry out for days for their calf" (fun fact this sound is referred to as "lowing") which isn't true from the hundreds and hundreds of cows I've seen. Cows don't seem to from an immediate bond with their calf as soon as it's born, in fact I've even seen some cows that literally reject their own calf (won't let it suck milk and will literally kick it in the head if tries to suck milk) and so we have to put it with another cow (this is really rare but it does happen). If the cows were left with their calves for weeks, then yes they would form a strong bond with them. But a few days, they don't. I've seen cows lowing when they see other groups of cows (kind of to get their attention) but never "crying out for their calf".
"Cows get mastitis and this is milked" - Yes cows get mastitis, not often though and many cows never ever get even through 5 years of milking. No, it's not milked and fed to humans if a cow has mastitis it's treated for it and then not milked for weeks (usually 5-6 iirc) until the infection clears. The video also mentions white blood cells in the milk, human milk also contains white blood cells in their milk. Having white blood cells in cow milk isn't some anomaly, it's just nature, it increases due to mastitis because it's fighting infection.
" 'Downers' are cows that are worked so hard they fall down from exhaustion and can't go on anymore, these are then dragged out and sold for meat" - No idea if this happens in America, but this is a completely foreign concept to me in Ireland. Meat factories in Ireland actually won't even accept a cow if it can't stand up, so a cow that can't stand is literally useless, not even for meat. I have never seen a cow "worked so hard it can't stand up" in all my life growing up around the dairy industry.
"Artificial Insemination often involves the farmer sticking his hand up a cows ass" - Yeah, this one happens. I've never done it but I've seen it being done many many times. The so called "rape racks" in the video, I've never heard of them we just put them in a "cattle crush", they don't kick or fight or seem to be in any distress when it's being done, but I'm not an expert just an observer so I can't really say what's going through their minds. What I can say though is this isn't always done by the farmer, often it's preformed by trained veterinarians.
At this point I fell like this comment is getting pretty long. So I'd like to close saying I don't have a problem with vegans, dietary or ethical. I just wanted to make this comment because having growing up around the Irish dairy industry I feel like it often gets painted as evil, I've even had friends quote "facts" to me about what they believe the Irish dairy industry to be about that simply aren't true or are blown way out of proportion in order to push an agenda.
I know I probably won't change your mind about the dairy industry, but I feel like it's important to represent it right. Supporting smaller farmers and condensing large scale factory farmers would have a bigger effect, because trust me it isn't small scale farmers doing these things shown in the videos, it's factory farmers who frankly I don't care for either.
Most of the cows I grew up with were treated ten times better than PETA treats their animals. Most farmers do care about their animals.
Edit: One more thing about the "Dairy is Scary" video, I don't know about the American dairy industry but I don't think the girl who made this video has any clue either (beyond online research). She showed a picture of what she called a "rape rack", thing is the picture she showed was of a rotary milking machine, which has absolutely nothing to do with Artificial Insemination.
What does happen to the male calves in the Irish dairy industry?
Sorry I forgot to mention it in my comment, they are grown as beef cattle and killed at around about 2 years old (the same age as every other beef breed).
2 years seems pretty young, I think the video says they live up to 20 years (don't know if that's true or not). But what I do know is they reach full maturity at 2 years which is why they're killed then, for reference they go through puberty at literally a year old; they develop a lot faster than humans.
But is reaching maturity a good enough reason to be killed? Humans reach maturity at, let's say, 20.
It's hard to relate humans to other animals in this sense because as humans we have an innate sense to protect our own species which would lead me to say "no".
However, even without that ingrained species preservation I believe it's still different for humans. If someone were to die it's not just them who are effected, they have family and friends who will all be affected and will know they're dead.
For animals I guess it's more philosophical of a question for me. The animal doesn't know it's going to die and it's death is instant, the other cattle also don't know it's dead. Is it really so inhumane if it's killed in the most humane way possible?
Torturing the animal or forcing it to have a long drawn out death is wrong in my mind. But the way the system is now the animal doesn't live in fear of death because it simply has no idea it's going to die.
Okay, how about dogs? I want to kill my dog, but I wait until it's 18 months old to kill it because that's when it's mature. Is that okay?
Well that depends on the reason you're killing it, killing it "just because" is sadistic, but people don't kill cattle "just because". They kill them for meat and every cow/bull that is killed is used for meat/glue/clothes/dog-food etc.
Woah woah woah woah fucking woah. STOP AND SHUT UP!
See, at first I thought you knew what you were talking about. But then I read your comment about chickens and I realized you’re actually an idiot. And I’m not only saying that to be insulting, I’m saying it because it’s true.
CHICKENS LAY AN EGG EVERY 12-36 HOURS!
That is from centuries of domestication and evolution. It’s natural for them now. I own 27 chickens. I’m a small farmer. They’re happy, fed good cracked corn every day, given plenty of grazing time on sunny days and have a big pen to goof around in when it’s not. These chickens are spoiled rotten just like every other animal on my farm and they lay an egg a day.
Stop spreading this unhappy chicken crap. It’s literally chicken shit.
Although I do agree, mass egg production is cruel.
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Good thing we eat them all then
Lol nothing you say makes any sense. Do you think it's unnatural for trees to spread pollen because if it fertilized every possible egg then there would be an insane number of trees? You talk like a con artist
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Lol nice one "trees dont lay eggs." Take everything 100% literally. What are analogies anyway?
it's all about balance man
Again with the hippie con man bullshit lol. Organisms are not about balance at all, they're about competing. If laying thousands of eggs was the best way to reproduce then they would do it, thats why trees (not literal eggs) and salmon (literal eggs) do that. Nothing about "balance" lol.
It's most likely resource-intensive to lay that many eggs and unnecessary, so that's why they wouldn't lay so many in the wild. The pros dont outweigh the cons. It's not because they just dont like laying that many eggs lol.
Your whole argument is one big naturalistic fallacy. Your upvotes are from literal retards on reddit who upvote fallacious arguments all the time. Your arguments are bad and you should feel bad.
trees to spread pollen because if it fertilized every possible egg then there would be an insane number of trees?
Mate you literally said trees fertilise eggs 😂
Also, ecosystems are about balance. That's why invasive species are a thing. A proliferation of chickens like that would decimate the food supply and die out.
And organisms are about balance. The balance it the resource intensiveness of producing eggs vs the need to procreate.
We know it's bad for them to produce that many eggs. It takes a massive toll on their bodies, that's not up for debate.
You said it yourself,
the pros don't outweigh the cons.
It's about balance. So miss me with your poorly thought out defense mechanism bullshit if you don't mind.
Lol go google "analogy" goddamn. If i said you should come out of your cocoon and talk to people in real life instead of shitposting on reddit, would you say "uhh humans dont have cocoons 😂😂😂🤣🤣👌👌👌👌"
The rest of your comment is equally stupid
I love it when omnis run out of arguments.
You're literally too stupid to argue with, so have a nice day.
Omnis? What the fuck are you on about hahaha holy shit
Also calling me "too stupid to argue with" and providing 0 arguments yourself is ad hominem, so good job you are literally the exact thing you accused me of being.
Do you have to be rude? Chill.
But then I read your comment about chickens and I realized you’re actually an idiot.
And then I realized you were a sensationalist.
I’m a teacher, I have to be.
CHICKENS LAY AN EGG EVERY 12-36 HOURS!
well yeah but not naturally lol
Yeah. Naturally. At least hens bred for thousands of years to do that.
that's domestication, it's not natural is it. Natural means "occurring in nature", not "behaviour shaped by interference of humans"
Just because it's been happening for a long time doesn't mean it's natural
Why care if it's natural? Not like that means it's safe or healthy.
You're quite right, as already stated my problem was with the fact that the word "natural" was being used incorrectly
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my point isn't whether natural is good or not - things being seen as "natural" as being good is generally wrong. my argument, though, is that chickens do not naturally lay eggs every 12-36 hours, as the overly aggressive and patronising OP boldly and shoutily claimed.
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Yeah that's neither here nor there. It's an argument usually used AGAINST veganism but the whole "appeal to nature" thing is bullshit anyway - I only took umbrage with OP's bastardisation of the definition of "natural" to fit his agenda. I'm not even vegan haha
A little late to the party here but it seems like your choice to go vegan is based primarily on the fact that factory farms give animals a crap life, which I entirely agree with.
But there are plenty of local small scale farmers that give their animals a much better life and death than those animals could ever have in the wild. So why not just be a responsible person and only eat meat from these producers?
Not op but for me it is waaaaay easier to just not eat animals/animal products than to go out to farms and check the treatment of the animals every time I want to eat something like that. All of the nutrients I need can be found in plants and it’s way cheaper and easier. But for people who insist they need to eat meat, this approach is way better for the environment. Mostly because it results in less overall meat consumption.
But also, personally, I really don’t buy the treated-like-family/one-bad-day idea of eating animals. For example, I have a wonderful cat that I love very very much. If one day I decided to eat her, most people would agree that that’s pretty fucked up. Personally, I don’t see a difference between the suffering of a cat, dog, pig, cow, chicken, etc. I believe animals have a right to live their lives without humans causing them unnecessary suffering; if I wouldn’t want it happening to a pet then I won’t force that on another animal.
Sorry if that is super ramble-y or incoherent in anyway. But I hope I gave you some insight into the mind of a vegan.
I live in a city, so being vegan is significantly cheaper and more convenient than trying to find meat from local, small scale farmers.
Also, if everybody wanted to eat meat that was raised on a local, small scale farm, then we would still have to accept that we are still going to have to reduce our meat intake by like, 90%, because those 9 billion chickens we stack on top of each other here in the US each year aren't going to fit on nice free-range farms with rolling hills.
It's good that some meat eaters abide by such strict standards. As a vegan, it's certainly favourable that you do that rather than make no effort at all. Importantly though the number of people that do enforce such strict standards is extremely negligible in terms of overall sales.
Out of interest, are you entirely vegan when you cannot personally control the animal content of the food you're eating? Say, if you're eating in a restaurant or buying a prepared meal at a supermarket, where the origin of the chicken, milk powder, etc., cannot be known, do you uphold your own code and eat plant-based exclusively?
Personally I've never met a person who does uphold that practice.
Me neither. Was just curious about u/Stad0o. I've had productive conversations before with omnis who hunt or fish themselves because of grievances with factory farming who, upon reflection, agreed that eating vegan in all circumstances when they can't control the animal content of their food was the right and morally consistent thing to do.
As someone with formal education of poultry, your comment ignores thousands of years of selective breeding.
Personal suggestion: assist with butchering an animal, it is very enlightening.
Its a cop out. Dairy industries are as bad as factory farming. Forced impregnating, slaughter of males because they serve no purpose, the same conditions as the factory farmed cows but for the entire life of the females.
There is pus in your milk.
Vegetarianism as a transitionary thing to veganism is awesome, and any change is better than none, but vegetarianism is a cop out for people who want to feel like they’re helping but not fully commit.
It depends on what your end game is. If you're switching to reduce animal suffering than yeah vegetarianism only takes you about 50% of the way there, for all the reasons you just listed and more.
If you're switching for environmental reasons (to reduce the impact of animal husbandry on the environment) and don't necessarily think eating animals is wrong because of what happens to them then vegetarianism achieves about 99% of your goal.
In accounting there's a concept of "equivalent units." So let's say you have 100 units of your product that are only 50% through being made at the factory. For accounting purposes, in certain situations, you can act like you have 50 fully made products instead of 100 half made ones. They're basically equivalent for certain accounting purposes. Well, that's how I like to think about people who don't go fully vegan but cut down on animal products or go semi-vegetarian. If I can convince 100 people to cut down eating animal products by half, it has the effect of if I had convinced 50 people to be full vegans, while also being way more plausible. You have to think of the impact population wide.
So while I'm a vegan and I agree with a lot of what you said I also think it was needlessly discouraging and didn't give any other (very popular) reasons for cutting back on animal products due consideration.
I completely agree with you, while also thinking that vegetarianism is a cop out for people who want to stop some suffering but not all. It’s not an answer, but it’s a step in the right direction.
slaughter of males because they serve no purpose
Steak?
It's people attitude like you that turn everyone off to the whole deal.
Even if your typical family ate ONE vegetarian (not vegan) meal a week, the environment impact would be huge if everyone did it just because of the sudden, rapid reduction of the quantity demanded of meat items at grocers.
Your militant vegan attitude just turns people away. If you like it good for you, but when your house is on fire, you gotta put out the blaze and save what can before you start building it anew somewhere else.
Dairy farms kill males at birth because they serve no purpose, so no, no steak.
And I’m not militant, and say vegetarianism is great as a transitionary phase, but it’s a stop gap cop out when you get down to it.
Hatcheries for egg hens dump male chicks in to bins and let them suffocate because they’re useless to them. So not all of the suffering can be explained away by utility of the animals meat.
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Large scale cropping is also terrible for the environment.
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I've seen the impacts first hand, so sorry, but I'm not going to let cropping slip by without mention. People need to understand that all large scale farming is detrimental. Yes, it could be scaled back if demand goes down, but it's not all for feeding animals. For example, the damage done to the environment by cotton crops and orchards is massive. As long as there is demand for cheap fruit and cotton fabrics, they will continue to scale up.
The point being, that if people are becoming vegetarian or vegan based on just environmental concerns then they need to educate themselves and look at how they source their fruit, vegetables and legumes, as well as other products.
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That wasn't intentional. I just find it incredibly frustrating, because I think a lot of other environmental issues get glossed over in simplifying the message and I think people should be aware of these issues too. Or maybe I think the message should be eat sustainably sourced foods...
It becomes even more complicated when you start looking at food and clothes too.
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Sorry, didn't mean to indicate that you didn't, more that people in general should. Personally I think sustainably sourced is a good A to B step if people are reluctant to give up meat, but whatever works is good.
Out of curiosity, what's your source for the majority of crops being used for animal feed? Mine says it's 40% worldwide and I'm wondering if the fact that I'm not from the US is influencing how I view the statistics and the impacts.
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No worries, and yes, it's absolutely nuts. We don't need to be producing that many animal products that giving over so much land to their feed is necessary. Everything is so out of balance.
If you don't care so much about animals and more about the environmental impact it's a good step. I'm vegetarian because of the impact it has, and yes I know that veganism is probably better for environment, but fuck it I like a bit of cheese.
Are you saying it’s not good to care about the animals, or simply saying “if you can’t do it for the animals do it for the environment”?
Yeah basically the latter. It's not like I like the thought of animals being slaughtered, just I care more about the environment as a whole.
Im looking to go vegan. I think cheese is my biggest catch eight now. How do vegans live without cheese?
I went vegan last year with the same thoughts. IIRC cheese can actually be addicting like drugs.
Anyways, there's vegan cheese. I use a lot vegan cheese from a brand called "Vegan Deli", but would love to have easy access to "Violife", the vegan cheese used by Pizza Hut. I usually use the cheese on toasts, on pizza I usually use soy cream instead.
Give some good fake cheeses a try. Don't expect them to taste exactly like cows cheese. I would suggest Violife, their stuff is nice in cheese toasties and sandwiches. Miyokos is supposedly the best brand though, I've not tried them myself.
Just go vegan for everything but cheese when you want it. Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good.
I think the trick is just to gradually phase it out. Quitting things you love cold t(of)urkey can be difficult.
We just do.
Cashew cheese. Don't try Daiya. It's like drinking diet coke in place of coke. Shits just weird to me.
https://www.reddit.com/r/vegancheesemaking/
1 - lots of vegan cheese options
2 - morality > taste
Honestly that was the hardest thing for me to give up. One day I just decided that I would cut it out and see what happened. And you know what? After a few weeks I just… stopped craving it? I got better at cooking without it. And now when I look at cheese I think about all the terrible shit that has happened to the cow and the effects on the planet of raising that cow all for a piece of food that I don’t need to survive or even be happy! None of the alternatives taste exactly the same (yet), but at the end of the day there are so many delicious foods out there that it doesn’t matter. Cheers!
You can create your own cheeses or buy them from the store.
Some really good alternatives to try: Chao, Miyokos, Follow your Heart, Violife
I second the recommendation for Miyoko's: it's absolutely amazing. Their Smoked Farmhouse flavor is my absolute favorite vegan cheese.
I just want to chime in and say that every step towards veganism is a step in the right direction. A meat-heavy diet has more than double the ecological cost vs. a vegan diet, while a vegetarian diet is just ~15% more impact vs. a vegan diet. And a beef-free diet is just ~25% more impact vs. a vegan diet. For the environment and out of compassion, we should all prioritize eating less mammal-based foods.
This should be near the top if people weren't completely fucking ignorant about the effects that they have on the environment and what we're really doing to other sentient beings. Nah, let's talk about plastic bags instead.
I'm more concerned about the environmental impact, once[not if, but when] lab-grown meat blows up big, we'll need to clear-cut far less forests for animal pastures, and free up old ones for new forests to grow back[hopefully], and it should help reduce greenhouse gas emissions into the atmosphere. Earth is currently our only home and the atmosphere is not the endless garbage dump that we've been using it as for centuries. Don't let anyone tell you that we'll just pack up the entire population and move to Mars if we fuck it up too bad because that is downright impossible. Humans are omnivores after-all, so good luck convincing everyone to not eat meat.
Vegan diets are healthier tho..
They aren’t.
You’re just comparing an extremist diet to the average.
That’s not how anything relevant works.
You seem pretty confident.. maybe i'm wrong could you link me scientific study that makes that error?
that makes that error
There is no error. The studies are dead on. It's the interpretations that are unfounded.
so can you link a study that does that?
What, exactly, do you want linked?
I just stated that the studies are all completely accurate.
link a study that doesnt account for lifestyle choices?
I don't know why you're lying about my position.
I do know why I haven't posted anything for you. This charlatan way you people have of writing things in an attempt to paint yourself in a positive light.
You go from 'makes an error' which I didn't write to 'interpretations' that I didn't mention as an error of a study that you lied and wrote that I did, and now we're at 'lifestyle choices'
i'm just asking you to support a claim you made, no need to get hostile
no need to get hostile
and the cop out
No, you asked me to back up 3 false statements that you made about me
apparently calling people on their shit on Reddit is getting hostile lol
I think you might be confused about what making an error actually means.. I'm just asking link one study that makes an invalid conclusion, or which vegans misinterpret, if you can't or won't do that just say so
But meat diets are still very healthy, so that's not a good argument for most people.
red and proccesed meats are carcigenic, the difference in lifespan among v*gans and omni's are similar to the difference between smokers and non-smokers. Also, replacing animal protein with plant protein signifigantly decreases all cause mortality, and heart disease mortality even more. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27479196
So, you basically the best way to be healthy is eat as little meat as possible
You referring to red meat only, or are you including chicken and fish in that?
Pretty sure it's red meat. It actually is pretty bad for you. Mediterranean Diets are proven to be wayyyyy healthier than your typical American diet.
No doubt red meat is not great for you, but it just seems that vegans and vegetarians only attack red meat when attack a diet that allows for meat consumption.
All meat is unhealthy. There are many reasons, and some are worse than others, but it is all bad.
Plenty of shit is unhealthy, not all of it tastes as good as meat.
Try an "all meat" diet and see how long you live. Try a vegitarian or vegan diet and live a long, happy life.
Nobody is talking about all meat, you are being purposefully dishonest. Stop yourself before doing that again.
You missed the point, don't do that ever again. We are omnivore by choice, not by nature.
You are embarrassingly historically inaccurate.
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lol, ok
Try some research, it tastes better than animal products
Go eat some bananas homie, I don't need vegan propaganda to feel anything about my food and I am comfortable with the knowledge I've learned about my diet.
Close your mind a little tighter.
your two posts to me are contextually nil
Don't care. your opinion is clearly not based on fact or reality and therefore has a value of nil.
your opinion is clearly not based on fact or reality and therefore has a value of nil.
What opinion would that be?
Based on your decision making heuristic, any of them count.
Figured you had nothing.
Ironically, I have everything.
No, that was not the point. You talked about an all meat diet as a response, when my point was a balanced diet that has meat is still very healthy, so simply telling people a veggie diet is healthy isn't a persuasive argument, since people can and are still plenty healthy with meat. Nobody but you brought up an all meat diet, so it's completely irrelevant.
"Sure avoiding tobacco is good for your health, but a pack a day really clears the lungs out too, so you never know which is healthier.'
I assume that made sense in your mind. I feel sorry for you a bit.
For the record, comparing a piece of chicken to a cigarette is also not a good argument for most people. If you want to be successful, don't be ideologically driven into using misrepresentations and falsehoods.
It may not be exactly the same thing, but there are more parallels than I care to spell out. It's easy to consider smoking or meat eating to be a personal choice, but you aren't the only one paying for your choice.
Now we aren't talking about the shambling attempt to paint eating chicken as analogous to smoking cigarettes, we are instead moving on to calling it bad because we aren't the "only ones paying for your choice"? Get back to me when there's second-hand smoke from my steak, and I'll consider eating it outside like smokers do.
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/10/141028-hog-farms-waste-pollution-methane-north-carolina-environment
I'm not recommending that you eat outside, just don't eat it at all, if you care about the air quality for people who are not directly adjacent to you.
Or cut back.
Or don't.
I can tell you what I think is more moral, but I can't tell you what to do.
That argument does quite work since it conflate individual action with collective action. A person smoking directly affects their surrounding. We as a society pollute ourselves with every one of our industries, and any single person will not change that by abstaining.
The EPA needs to be supported more for pollutions like what you listed to be curbed. So change with your vote, and your activism in the political process.
The only thing the EPA or other government agencies can do about this is impose fines on those who produce the worst pollution, or other penalties for other bad practices, which means the industrialized farms wouldn't be as profitable, which means the cheapest sources of meat would no longer be viable, thus driving up prices. They never will, because driving up the price of something that people enjoy isn't something that will provide job security. Literally the only thing that an individual can do is not eat it or buy it, and slowly make efforts to change people's minds in positive ways. Lots of delicious food can be made without animal products, and the more common it becomes for people to seek them out, the more available they will become, which in turn will make more people curious to try them.
Not everybody needs to become a vegan, but the world(and more particularly the USA) could use a few more people eating something other than the average American diet.
The EPA, when funded properly, has achieved many regulations that have prevented companies from poisoning the environment. It works, when people bother doing it, and don't hold a glib and defeatist view of what it's capable of. You want to think the EPA can't at all prevent a company from dumping waste into a river, I suggest you read up on the history, and see that you are in error.
I can understand the impulse to gravitate towards jaded defeatism, but the reality is regulations do often work. The problem, is the current administration gutted the agency, which means some more bad things are going to happen in the coming years.
I think we're in violent agreement about what that particular agency, or other agencies, can do when properly funded, and when the American people stand behind what they are doing. The problem is that too many of us have decided that the environment doesn't matter that much after all, and that our individual actions don't matter much either. The actions of a group are made up of the actions of the individuals in that group. If we stand together, I think we can make some positive changes. We want the same things, and I think our ideas are not that different about how to get there.
Thanks for arguing with me, I really think it's a good way to refine and reassess ideas.
I hope you aren't cooking your food, everyone knows raw food is the only truly healthy diet. /s
good joke, but there's no scientific evidence that a raw food diet is healthy.. unlike veganism
Honestly it doesn't matter.
yeah i want a lower quality of life and an early death too
lol be more butthurt.
Lower quality of life for me would be not eating meat, and you can die from a lot of shit that your diet doesn't have an impact on. Why not just let other people live their life and not be the moral police?
idk we should probably stop shaming pedophiles too, right mate?
Are you really equating people who eat meat to pedophiles? You god damn people are absolutely nuts.
I'm gonna buy a steak tomorrow and throw it out just to spite you. You do you, I'm gonna do me.
You do you, I'm gonna go rape this child.
This is the kinda shit that just never ceases to amaze me. Do you honestly equate that with someone eating meat?
Consuming animal products is really fucking horrible.
What I said isn't about equating to child rape.
The reasoning you used can be applied to justify literally anything.
So youre just randomly gonna go rape a child?
My reasoning isn't broken like yours. So no.
Im rubber and your glue. Thats where we are at.
Yeah we definitely aren't. I think maybe I haven't explained clearly:
Eating a steak involves a victim. Many victims in fact. What it has in common with child rape, among other things, is is that is involves a victim.
So, the live and let live philosophy doesn't work.
Does that make sense?
No because I don't agree that it involves a victim.
And to jump to child rape to try and make your point, thinking the act is comparable to eating meat, is just a terrifying insight into your mindset.
You haven't comprehended my point:
The point is: "I do me, u do u" argument can be used to justify anything.
^Assuming you agree with that, the next step is to accept that your presented justification doesn't work. The step after that is to reevaluate your position.
Just go fuck yourself man, and no I'm not condoning you raping a clone of yourself.
You think that just because I disagree with you, I cant comprehend your point? That because its disgusting that in order to make a point, you have to jump to child molestation. You think I cant comprehended? Please tell me you understand how much of a leap that is, and disgusting you have to be to make that jump so excitedly.
And why are you gonna try and dismiss me by rephrasing what I said to "I do me, u do u"? You think it makes your point stronger by attempting to make me look dumber?
And no, I dont agree that you can justify anything with the "I do me, u do u" idea. Thats what we have been arguing about this whole time man. Just go fuck yourself man. Im done with this conversation, you're just gonna attempt to devolve this into personal attacks. Hopefully you have a good life, and eventually see the error in your ways.
Nothing that I have said is an ad hominem, and you have been defending carnism with an argument of libertarianism.
I'm telling you that libertarianism doesn't justify harming others. (Quite the opposite, actually.)
Your anger in response to an argument that you cannot defend against is a strong indicator that you are recognizing you are in the wrong.
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So in a conversation about eating meat or only veggies, your mind instantly jumps to rape, and child molestation when I call you the moral police? The problem a lot of people have with vegetarians and vegans is you have no line in which you wont cross when it comes to trying to make your point. The fuck is wrong with you man. You think rape is equatable to eating a god damn chicken wing.
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Look man, if you cant see the difference between eating meat, and raping someone theres no conversation here to be had. The fact that you gotta resort to personal attacks shows this is just a waste of time.
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Sure, Im wrong youre right, chalk it up to another internet victory for vegans.
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Then you must love winning arguments with yourself in the shower.
Have a good day man, this kind of conversation isnt worth my time. And my time is pretty valueless.
"Humans are omnivores after-all"
That's an almost universal misconception. Here's a scientific analysis on the traits of omnivores and those of herbivores. http://www.adaptt.org/documents/Mills%20The%20Comparative%20Anatomy%20of%20Eating1.pdf Tell me in which one of the groups you see the most (or all) human traits.
But let's assume that it's true that humans are omnivores. Let's assume that science has never retracted commonly held beliefs based on outdated science. Let's assume that this can't be one of them. It remains that you can be obtain optimal health on a vegan diet, whereas that is not possible in an omnivorous one. If you don't believe that, here's a statement from the American Nutrition Association stating that a plant-based diet is healthy and nutritionally adequate in all stages of life, including pregnancy and also adequate for athletic lifestyles. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864
If you need more sources and have any further questions, I'll be checking this post, so ask away!
What if you don’t like killing vegetables?
Then you should definitely be a vegetarian because the animals that you eat are fed a lot of plants.
They’re not anymore.
Categorically false. Of course farm animals are fed a lot of plants.
Not by the time I’m eating them.
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Will do.
Veggie Lives Matter
Edit: I'm insulted by the amount of carni's here against veggie rights.
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Can I quote you? You are the stereotypical replier when veganism is mentioned and I want to use you as an example.
It's good to look after the environment too :)
No, it's only good to look after sentient beings.
Ah, forgot we don’t live in the environment!
Well here you go: you only care about the environment because it has an impact on sentient beings.
I care about the environment because it has an impact on all beings. Since you only care about sentient beings, I figured a reminder that we live on Earth would be useful to you.
No disagreement here. We should care about the well being of sentient beings who already exist.
However I don't see any moral duty in creating more. I could even argue that it is unethical.
Absolutely agreed.
Huh. Interesting. Most people don't necessarily agree with this immediately.
I wonder what you would think of this.
Only bother reading if you have time for it and you're interested, obviously.
Cheers for the link. I only read the front page but I think I quite like the sound of that guy, very similar to my personal views in a lot of ways. I just try to extend those ideals to the animals within the sphere of human civilisation that we’re responsible for, as well as humans.
Ok, let's see what you think of us going one step further:
Antifrustrationism:
Antifrustrationism is an axiological position proposed by German philosopher Christoph Fehige, which states that "we don't do any good by creating satisfied extra preferences. What matters about preferences is not that they have a satisfied existence, but that they don't have a frustrated existence." According to Fehige, "maximizers of preference satisfaction should instead call themselves minimizers of preference frustration."
What makes the world better is "not its amount of preference satisfaction, but the avoided preference frustration." In the words of Fehige, "we have obligations to make preferrers satisfied, but no obligations to make satisfied preferrers." The position stands in contrast to classical utilitarianism, among other ethical theories, which holds that creating "satisfied preferrers" is, or can be, a good in itself. Antifrustrationism has similarities with, although it is different from, negative utilitarianism, the teachings of Buddha, Stoicism, philosophical pessimism, and Schopenhauer's philosophy. In particular, negative preference utilitarianism states that we should act in such a way that the number of frustrated preference is minimized and is therefore directly based on antifrustrationism. The difference is that antifrustrationism is an axiology, whereas negative preference utilitarianism is an ethical theory.
The moral philosopher Peter Singer has, in the past, endorsed a position similar to antifrustrationism (negative preference utilitarianism), writing:
The creation of preferences which we then satisfy gains us nothing. We can think of the creation of the unsatisfied preferences as putting a debit in the moral ledger which satisfying them merely cancels out... Preference Utilitarians have grounds for seeking to satisfy their wishes, but they cannot say that the universe would have been a worse place if we had never come into existence at all.
Wait, are you pro veganism or anti?
Pro. But for sentiocentric reasons.
Animals and the environment and health and economics and the litany of other issues that those in turn impact. Something tells me you probably don't care about much at all though if you see it important to retort like that.
You should probably still reduce your meat intake even if you don't care about other life; to answer your question, it probably makes you an asshole.
Then you get an F at figuring out that sentence is the only thing that matters in the universe.
Notice how this response doesn't work for any other moral issue.
If you don't eat more plants, they'll take over the world.
Well, I assume you care about chezburgers, at least?
He cares about his own sentient experiences that's for sure.
Unless you count all the land and forests being cut down for soy plantations. Don't ever fall into the trap of thinking veganism is perfect friend!
Also I'm assuming your a vegan so what's your opinion on invertebrates like bugs? A local grocer and a bulk food store just picked up a line of cricket protein powder cuz some local started s cricket farm. Do you consider bugs animals? I know some vegetarians atleast will eat invertebrates like squid/lobster/fish but not sure about vegans!
WHO is still pushing the idea that eating bugs can solve world hunger
Edit:all I said was don't think you're perfect and what's your opinion on insects. Y'all are salty
70% to 90% of soy produced globally goes to feed cattle, not humans.
This is a common misunderstanding. Cattle take a drastic amount of soy to raise to slaughter. If we ate the soy instead we could drastically reduce the amount of land we use for agriculture.
Let me answer your insects question. No, I don't eat insects or products by insects like honey.
Also I don't see the point. Sure, insects are a lot more sustainable than meat, but thats not to difficult. But I doubt that they are actually more sustanable than a plant based protein source. After all insects have to eat something as well. Unfortunatley I haven't found any information yet, that compared insects to plants.
Lmao, nice try dude.
http://news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-million-people-grain-livestock-eat
Too bad I never will
Why not? You have some condition preventing that?
No I just really like to eat meat (among other things) and I don't like when people try to get into my business like many vegan redditors.
I like to eat meat too, but do you think this pleasure is worth the harm imposed onto other sentient beings?
Yeah. IMO that's how nature works.
If nature works in some way, does it always mean that it does in in an ethical way?
Or I could reformulate: Does natural always mean good/acceptable?
No. But in this case I believe it does.
But then whether something is natural or not doesn't say much about whether it's good or not.
I guess this means that you must have some other reason to believe it is good that is independent of natural-ness.
Am I wrong?
I mean just because I don't do other natural behaviours doesn't mean I can't embrace this one. Not everything has to be black and white. We would not be where we are as a race without eating meat. Also like I said I just enjoy it and the more people try to preach to me the more inclined I am to do the opposite of what they say. I think people should try to stick to own business.
I agree that we wouldn't be where we are as a species without meat, but does that mean it is acceptable to keep exploiting sentient beings if we have the opportunity to do otherwise?
Also, do you think it is rational to do something simply because people tell you to not do it?
No I don't think it's rational but I'm not in a great mindset in general right now and I have no problem letting my emotions get the better of me, it's the only way I can feel release (I'm not sure how to word that better).
And I think it is acceptable, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I have one life to live and it's been complete shit thus far, I'm going to enjoy the small pleasures I have.
Ah ... I understand ...
Well if life is shit, the bare minimum I could request is to not impose life onto someone else by reproducing.
Don't worry, no one's going to try to reproduce with me.
Saying that is kind of dickish, ya know?
How so?
I never implied no one would want you.
I'm just arguing that if life is a shit game, don't impose the game on others. It's not targeting you specifically, I'm an antinatalist.
You'll be turned into a gigantic pussy though.
Edit: I love how so many of you didn't get the South Park reference. Do Vegans always get this triggered?
Hate to break it to you, but if your ego is that fragile then you’re already a gigantic pussy.
Hate to break it to you, but you should really watch South Park
That's true actually, there's nothing more manly than buying the prepackaged meat of an animal you never saw. What a show of testosterone.
"yeah, but you can imagine what it'd be like if I had butchered the animal myself."
Except vegan dudes are a lot less likely to suffer from erectile dysfunction and actually have higher levels of testosterone than meat eaters. Also nothing manly about drinking breast milk from a different species.
Stop eating animals! They want to live just like we do. The conditions many farm animals are kept in are disgusting.
I can't believe I had to sort comments controversial for finding yours... our species is lost.
What about hunting, or buying meat from small local farms?
Why kill animals at all? There isn't a good reason to do so in an advanced industrialized society other than for taste – which isn't a strong case to kill a living being, in my opinion.
Deer hunting is actually pretty necessary. They have no natural predators, so hunters fill that gap and keep the population at a healthy size. Not to mention money spent on hunting licenses and tags generally go to conservation. Hunting is a pretty ethical sport long as you eat what you kill and don't take too much.
Yep, deer like edge habitat, american predators like deep woods. We have a lot more edge habitat than deep woods, too
So here's the thing. It took us a while to understand how ecosystems work. So a long time ago, someone said "wolves are a danger to us" and we killed alot of the wolves. But! Wolves ate deer. Not alot of other things eat deer, but wolves did. Without their main predator, deer were able to procreate at unprecedented levels. Humans hunting deer, for food or sport, is the only method of population control there is for wild deer populations, short of letting them run wild, extinct their own food sources and kill themselves off, which would also cause some major ecological nastiness. On top of that, the fees from hunting licenses, tags, and stamps go towards supporting state conservation efforts.
On top of that, hunting is a relatively cheap way of getting food. There's a chunk of capital needed to start, a couple hundred for a shotgun, but shells are only about a dollar a piece for slugs and buckshot, and a quarter for birdshot, and an years licence is, where I live, like $30. From that you get a deer tag, and the ability to hunt nearly unlimited amounts of small game, which exist in such numbers that they often aren't regulated at all because they're worth more to the state dead (like woodchuck, which will damage crops, and red squirrels, which damage everything). A single deer will net you something like 150 lbs of raw meat. After two years you're looking at, like, $1/lb for venison. In rural areas with low incomes and only a couple businesses that sell food, hunting is necessary to survive for many people.
Why do you want deer to die of starvation, disease, and hitting cars instead of a bullet? It is the most humane way for the animal to die
Its not just about taste. Meat is full of protein and minerals that you just can't get from plant based diets. This isn't an opinion, its fact.
Meat is full of protein and minerals that you just can't get from plant based diets. This isn't an opinion, its fact.
The only thing you can't get from plants is B-12. But even livestock don't get enough of it because of the crap conditions they are kept in. So they supplement the livestock with B-12. So why not skip the middle man and take the B-12 yourself?
Actually you can get b-12 from nutritional yeast which is vegan so you don't even need the supplement.
That's not a fact at all. You clearly haven't even done 5 minutes of research on the topic if you actually believe that you can't get protein from plants.
I'm not saying you can't get protein from plants. Its just much harder. What is the most protein dense plant?
It's not harder at all. Lentils are probably the highest protein plant, but there are many others such as beans, nuts, soy, seitan, peas, etc. All much cheaper than meat too, and probably healthier.
Nuts probably.
I just looked it up. 100 grams of sunflower seeds (about 3/4 cup) has 21 grams of protein. A steak with the same weight has about 25, so it's not that far off.
I also eat meat, but there really isn't an argument to be made for it in terms of health benefits. I think it's more of a blend between culture and biology; our brains are designed to shoot fireworks at the taste of meat and most cultures have traditions that include meat, so I'm against completely removing it. However, a whole-food, plant-based diet is one of the healthiest diets possible. It just is. The Mediterranean Diet is also very healthy; fish/seafood is the main meat, lots of fruits/veggies, little-to-no sugary snacks, more cheese/yogurt, and red meat sits in the same space as a can of Coke.
So if our brains thoroughly enjoyed eating carcinogenics, would you still subject your body to a variety of cancers just for the taste pleasure? Also, let's not forget that you're not really tasting meat per se, but rather a concoction of multiple herbs, salt and a host of procedures to make the meat not have its natural consistency and texture. Basically, you're cheating your brain into not thinking you're eating meat. The only thing that you got going for is the fats in meat, which are far unhealthier than any other non-animal fat there is out there.
As for the mediterranean diet, the researchers who studied it have not taken under consideration the surrounding habits of those mediterranean population, so it is unknown whether their longevity is due to their diet or the fact that they are far more physically active than most elder populations on the planet. Conversely, one of the most longevous populations in the world is the californian adventist community, the majority of which is either vegetarian or vegan. Furthermore, just about all fish contains mercury and other heavy metals, no matter how clean the ocean areas they inhabit are nor the conditions of their capture. Red meat has been classified as a type B carcinogen by international health associations through peer-reviewed research, whereas coke hasn't.
So if our brains thoroughly enjoyed eating carcinogenics, would you still subject your body to a variety of cancers just for the taste pleasure?
I mean, I drink and smoke, so yea. You pick your battles.
I disagree with the "tricking your brain" aspect, though. The oils, fats, and fibers in meat are what triggers your brain into thinking "holy hell, get me more of that." In the wild, we wouldn't get a chance to eat something so caloric and full of nutrients too often. The herbs and spices are just something we developed over time via culture and tradition.
I agree with the physically active bit. I have mixed feelings about the rest of that paragraph, but I can't really argue it. Thanks for the info.
If you can prove to me that cultural assimilation led the overwhelming majority of human civilization to prefer cooked, salted or spiced meat, I'll start considering your point.
I can, however, prove that humans have an averse physiological response to consuming meat.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3469470/
That also explains why we don't have a single evolutionary adaptation that is exclusively meant to properly process meat in our bodies, whereas we have several for a variety of vegetables. Canines? Herbivores and non-flesh eaters such as hippos, gorillas and great spear-nosed bats also have them. Here's a comparative analysis of animals and their evolutionary adaptations to their diet. https://joedubs.com/are-humans-frugivores/
per 100g sunflower seed nutrition fat 51.46 g protein 20.78 g carbs 20 g calorie by macromolecule Fat 463 calories protein 83 calories carbs 80 calories
Chicken Breast fat 7.72g protein 29.55g carbs 0 g Calories by macromolecule fat 70 calories protein 120 calories
The argument for meat is that nut based diets can make up the protein difference if you want to eat yourself into a high caloric surplus, eat like 7kg of broccoli a day, or drink protein powders (multiple). Most people can function on 50g of protein a day, but ideal anabolism (setting your body up to be ready to make/produce any type of cell it wants on the fly) requires much higher protein values.
I mean you literally said 'meat is full of protein and minerals you just can't get from plant based diets'.
There are many protein dense plant foods. Soy, beans, lentils, peas, nuts, oats, seeds, not to mention that pretty much all veggies contain protein. It's not difficult to get enough protein on a vegan diet and I don't know why this stupid myth persists. Check out r/veganfitness if you're interested in high protein vegan diets.
What is your job profession?
Why is it relevant?
I'm curious if you're a dietician or nutritionist?
Are you?
No. So maybe we should both just shut the fuck up.
You should read this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19562864/
'It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.'
And anecdotally, in going vegan, I researched my diet extensively with the support of my doctor and my sister in law, who is a dietician. I have regular blood tests and my B12 and iron levels (which are the actual nutrients you need to be conscious of on a vegan diet, not protein) are always perfect.
So you retract your claims about nutrition?
No, because of the amount of information I've read. Ive looked at this pretty objectively over the last few years.
Seems a bit disingenuous to ask about qualifications then.
Didnt I say we should both shut the fuck up?
Sure but now you seem to be saying qualifications don't matter, so I don't see why anyone should shut up.
Because I'm not qualified, and your not qualified. The amount of research I've done on my own means nothing to you. There's really no point in even having a conversation through reddit. This is something better suited for a face to face conversation.
As one majoring in it, you don’t have to be taking classes to understand that a wfpb diet is healthier than a diet that includes meat.
Ive done lots of research on nutrition. Yes I can get the same amount of protein from plant based/nut based diet if I want to eat massive amounts of greens or nuts (which are high in fat meaning high caloric value for mass consumption).
Vegan diets put you at like 60 g of protein consumption per day, fine if you dont work out or play competetive atheletics but bad otherwise.
Protein is also way superior to carbohydrates which is what vegan diets mostly consist of. Protein is a complete polypeptide and can be broken down into all constituent amino acids, while carbohydrates generally lack some essential AA's. More protein circulating in blood at any given time = more consistent ability for catabolisis of protein into required elements for cell repair/growth/replication = more efficient body nutrition.
Where are you getting the 60g figure? I get over 100g of protein most days, and I lift weights. There are tons of vegan athletes and bodybuilders out there that excel on a vegan diet. I don't think you know as much about nutrition as you think. Vegan diets give you everything you need, and protein is extremely easy to get from plants.
Dude I just hit 100+ grams of protein the other day on a vegan diet and only ate 2,700 calories. I wasn't even trying to eat a lot of protein. I was actually trying to get my fiber up. There are plenty of examples of vegan athletes out there.
Pretty impressed actually, you must have a solid diet. Yes there are examples of vegan athletes, its not undoable, but just requires you to monitor your diet constantly and eat large amounts of food. And for every vegan atheletes theres about like 20 equally successful if not more so non vegan atheletes.
"Only" 2700 calories for 100 grams of protein isn't ideal for me. I try to get 200g and stay at 2k calories. I could get 100 g of protein in like 3 protein shakes, or around 500 calories, or 400 g of chicken for 600 calories.
Get me a source for that “fact” mate.
Uh what?
Its not just about taste. Meat is full of protein and minerals that you just can't get from plant based diets. This isn't an opinion, its fact.
That's not true at all. Although meat contains nutrients we need to survive, it comes with unhealthy stuff like cholesterol and saturated fat. Humans can get everything they need to survive while eating a vegan diet.
Cholesterol and saturated fats are important for not only hormone development, but brain development. Again, this is not opinion, its fact.
That's why our bodies create the cholesterol we need. Animal products are high in saturated fats, cholesterol, and trans fats. Since people (edit: people in America) usually eat a diet with more animal products than what's 'healthy', they have high levels of cholesterol and go over the recommended intake of saturated fats and trans fats. (we shouldn't be eating trans fats at all) Which leads to clogged arteries and heart disease.
Please stop being intellectually dishonest and ask vegans/plant-based people how they get their nutrients and I'm sure they will be more than glad to tell you.
I'm not saying they can't, but its insanely hard to get the right amounts. Most vegans are b12 deficient, and iron deficient.
Spinach, ounce for ounce, has more iron than red meat. And B12 is easily supplemented and available in various vegetables.
This is not true, and has been debunked by multiple credible sources. https://www.healwithfood.org/articles/spinach-iron-content.php
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Who is skinning animals alive? That's not ethical at all. That's fucked up.
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That's not hunting. That's a fucked up dog festival where they scare the shit out, and apparently skin them alive. That's not even in the ballpark of hunting.
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The argument is that we are past the point of needing to hunt and kill for food. When wolves and sharks can manufacture replacements as easily, cheaply, and sustainably as we can, then make your argument again.
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How are plants expensive lol I've met some poor people that are vegans and they claim it's even cheaper than eating meat
Go away
Go vegetarian, or even partially vegetarian. Personally, anything i make at home is vegetarian, if im eating out i do whatever looks good. freakonomics post on this.
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i'm hella stoked.
At some point we're going to have to start eating less meat, or eat comfortable with eating lab-grown meat. I think we should all be eating less meat, even a few meatless meals each week is a start. I've found eating no meat at lunch means I'm not stuffed and don't get that super tired, drowsy afternoon feeling.
At some point we're going to have to start eating less food overall. That stuffed, lethargic feeling you're experiencing isn't because of meat. It is because you ate too much food and probably spiked your blood sugar from too many carbohydrates as well. If you look at your plate and stick to this rule you'll be fine: 1 fist-sized serving of protein. 1 fist-sized serving of complex carbohydrate (brown rice, quinoa, sweet potato, etc). Find some way to sprinkle a bit of healthy fat in there (avocado, nuts, etc) if your protein is super lean.
My approach would mean that less meat is being eaten because of smaller portions, and it would also solve the obesity problem in the United States...which will clear up tons of other health issues as well as reducing healthcare costs.
It totally is because of meat. I can say this, as a primary source, at least. For most of my life I thought I paid relatively good attention to the food I ate. I tried not to overeat, but meat was always a big focal point in every meal. Tired of feeling shitty all the time, I did some research on food, quit all meat, eggs, dairy overnight... and haven't had that 'stuffed, lethargic' feeling ever since. Even over holidays like Thanksgiving where I piled a plate full of rich, satisfying foods, and followed up with seconds, I felt completely fine afterwords. Also, I don't think that carbohydrates affect it so much once you heal your body from the ill-effects of being an animal graveyard. I was pre-diabetes and having to really mind what I ate. Now I basically live on carbs and my blood sugar isn't even a concern.
I'm glad you found the solution for your issues. However, I think you're probably more the exception than the rule as millions of people eat meat everyday without these kinds of issues.
To me lab grown meat is a fucking weird thing that we should be ashamed of ourselves for even considering.
Just. Eat. Less. Meat. You don't need a huge meat portion every day, let alone every meal in every day.
To me lab grown meat is a fucking weird thing that we should be ashamed of ourselves for even considering.
I understand the weird part but why should we be ashamed?
But any amount of meat comes with an increased cancer risk, no matter how small. Not only will it increase your risks, but those of the children you conceive while on that diet, which will epigenetically affect your children's health even if they go vegan at an early age.
Eat less meat or stop eating it at all
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~~Ok, I'll bite. Other people can argue that veganism isn't necessarily privileged (for example, rice and beans are among the cheapest foods out there), but I'll run with what you're asserting. Do you believe that the people that do have the privilege to go vegan shouldn't because not every single person on Earth can/will? Any reduction effort is better than doing nothing.~~
EDIT: Nevermind, obviously people living in food deserts or certain areas of the world (e.g., Greenland and Nunavut) can't reasonably expect to go vegan. But fringe cases shouldn't give a privileged person permission to not decide to do better themselves.
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Don't forget to adopt! And I'm not talking about fido. I am also talking about your fellow huminoid. Why would you want to procreate when you could change somebody's life?
Maybe we should be sending free birth control to Africa instead?
Not even. How about the many of thousands of kids right here in your home country? If we change the lifestyle, we won't need to drug the perpetrators. It will take a little while, many might be welcoming of the idea, but lest we fear defeat!
Birth rates are actually too low in western countries. It's a known problem.
I do believe that is propaganda. What is the perfect amount of a population? It will vary between generations. Again, my own personal belief.
Any growth rate less than the replacement rate is considered bad.
Spoken like a true capitalist! But seriously, what is so bad about a population slightly decreasing? What is so bad about it?
It causes a shrinking of the economy which has various bad impacts on interest rates, inflation, wages, etc....
I want to procreate because I want to pass my genes on.
Well then you are selfish. Imho. And that's okay, who is to say which is the right decision, huh?
I guess it is, but idk I just feel it's cool to start your own legacy or smthn lol
Don't hit your kids.
There's no such thing as "only hitting them a reasonable amount" or "hitting, but not like beating".
As a kid, when I said anything like "hitting, but not like beating" I meant my father giving me a playful soft punch on the shoulder or something. Just thought I'd put this here.
Right- obviously that's not what I'm talking about.
"...as punishment" would probably be worth adding to that statement to clarify, though.
I know, was just mentioning it in passing.
Fair.
got to take a break from scrolling, reading, losing faith humanity little by little, scrolling reading, etc.
Vegan
Not a vegan but, becoming vegan.
/r/vegan
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This goes against all breakfast food rules.
Going vegan.
Go vegan
Go vegan.
I'm surprised I haven't seen this one yet.
Hundreds of billions of animals are murdered every year completely unnecessarily. If that's not unethical, I don't know what is.
We can thrive on a plant based diet. It's better for the environment too. There are too many reasons to not do it.
What if I told you plants have feelings too, what would you do for food? Not to mention the millions of animals/insects killed in farm machinery while harvesting grains/veggies.
Considering the vast majority of wheat and soy crops are used as animal feed and considering that most of the calories that animals eat go toward maintaining their regular bodily functions and is therefore grossly inefficient, I wouldn't change.
Going vegan, for many, is much easier said than done. While you can manage to get almost all of the nutrients from plant based foods (all essential amino-acids, minerals, etc), to fulfill all of your nutritional requirements you often have to rely on artificially fortified foods, specialty foods such as algae based products to supply you with necessary long-chain n-3 fatty acids, or dietary supplements to account for shortfalls. For many people it is economically unfeasible and largely seen as a diet more accessible to middle class and wealthier populations, especially in America.
This also says nothing about the toll on wildlife populations by encroaching agricultural land, and billions of incidental animal death by automatic harvesting equipment on that wildlife. Having lived on farms in the past, I can guarantee you that every harvest of soy, corn, wheat, and beans is tainted somewhat by the blood of rabbits, mice, rats, raccoons, skunks, possums, and fowl that try to live among the fields. There is no way to prevent the death of animals by going vegan other than revert back to centuries old farming practices and hand-based harvest. There is no way possible we could do away with machine assisted harvesting due to the worlds current demand for food.
Vegan food is often super cheap. Stuff like beans, potatoes, rice, fruits, vegetables, grains, etc. Besides, if someone can't go vegan for whatever reason, I can't complain. I'm talking to people who have a choice, which is a lot of people.
The vast majority of wheat and soy crops are used as animal feed and considering that most of the calories that animals eat go toward maintaining their regular bodily functions which makes it grossly inefficient, it's still better to avoid animal products.
Also, nobody can live their life without killing anything, but that doesn't mean we should try our best.
Legumes and grains are usually pretty cheap, but those mostly supply just carbohydrates, some proteins, and fiber. Greens, especially organic (if you're trying to avoid pesticide/insecticide/fertilizer contamination), are usually twice the price of non-organic. If you're eating nothing but veggies, it's probably wise to eat organic because otherwise exposure to these chemicals is likely higher. Washing fruits and veggies only does so much since portions of it do penetrate into the plant.
You're definitely right on your second point, which is why I highly advocate that the Federal Government releases or allows for more public land to be used for grazing. It's far more sustainable and in a worse case scenario such as drought, animal feed can be used to fill the gaps. It's also much healthier for cattle and the resultant beef is higher in nutritional value such as omega fatty acids from the wild grasses. What's a shame is that the US alone could've easily made $40 Bil in exported trade if we had only used half of the soy and wheat for animal feed that we currently use.
Edit: I really wish that the Western world would be more open to accepting insect-based food sources. Many are just as good, if not higher in protein than beef. I think I might be the only one among my friends who has tried foods such as salted/roasted crickets and mealworms. They are actually pretty good if you can get past the mental gross factor. Insects also require far less resources to cultivate. In actuality, it's far more humane to sentient animals to eat insects over vegetables because raising insects have zero impact on wildlife, unlike agriculture.
Eat one meal a week with no meat. Meat production has a big carbon footprint.
Eating less meat. Yes it is tasty, yes it is something that most of us would say we need as part of our diet.
BUT, we don't need to eat as much meat as we do. It is destroying the planet.
Eat less meat!
Don't have meat and eat less kids.
Try and work a meatless monday into your week. It's unreasonable to think even 10% of people would go full vegetarian but if we all reduced our consumption this would have massive positive effects on the environment
Eating less meat. This isn’t sustainable. Starting with a “vegetarian night” once or twice a week is a good way to start.
Being vegan... I'll just leave it at that
Veganism. It is ethical, logical and healthy to be vegan.
I think we all know that the most important answer to this question is to adopt a vegan lifestyle.
Cue whiny meat eaters: "I know billions are slaughtered every year and that my diet is destroying the planet and perpetuating a public health crisis... but fuck consequences, I like bacon"
Yeah that’s definitely the singular cause for the destruction of our environment lmao
You're right. It's just the leading cause by a land slide. No big deal.
Sure
The meat industry is a huge part of it tho.
Reddit: Coal needs to go away. It's old technology. There are better alternatives
Also Reddit: I love bacon
Righhttttttt
Are you really denying the fact the millions of acres of land being destroyed to raise cattle isn't harmful to the environment?
No, stop jumping to conclusions.
Wait so what was your "Righhttttt" supposed to imply?
I just feel like there are things that are significantly larger that are contributing to climate change and that it’s being over exaggerated.
I'm just on mobile now, but I'll see if I can't find some sources on specific effects tomorrow.
I’d like to see some because I’m not up to date on current data.
Nice dodge. Where in that person's argument did you read that it was the only one? I can prove to you that it's the primary cause coming from citizens (i.e. excluding corporations and governments):
https://skepticalscience.com//pics/world-flowchart.jpg
As you can see, over 13% of the greenhouse gases emitted come from animal agriculture (nitrous oxide and methane are both excreted by livestock), which is superior to car pollution. Basically, all cars in the world produce less pollution than meat and dairy production.
Why do you need to twist the words of others to be able to dismiss their point? Are you not able to refute what vegans are actually saying?
Dodge? What am I dodging? As for his comment he said that our diet was destroying the planet and that’s just not true. There are other factors there obviously from your flow chart.
In the sentence ''your diet is destroying the planet'' there is nothing that says it's the exclusive source of the planet's demise. You're affirming the disjunction.
You have to be dense to not see he was over exaggerating it lmao. Besides it’s hardly contributing when there are other factors that can easily triple the impact farming makes.
Can you demonstrably prove that these factors can triple the impact that animal agriculture has? Can any other industry triple the impact of methane, a gas 30 times more damaging to the atmosphere than CO²? Is there such gas that's NINETY times more damaging than carbon monoxyde? Is there any other industry that produces food directly related to heart disease, the most common cause of death in the western world?
https://static.skepticalscience.com/pics/world-flowchart.jpg yeah here you go.
If you’re a homeowner, consider not chemically treating your lawn. Dandelions are food for honeybees and other pollinators, and less chemical treatment=less contributing to water pollution.
This should be higher up. Lawn care is wasteful and damaging.
Reduce the suffering of people around you - don't be an ass.
Stop littering.
Not having more than 2 kids in an overpopulated world.
Don't monkey around with another monkey's monkey.
Quit your lying.
If someone is angering you, ask yourself "Why would a rational, reasonable person be doing this?". 99% of the time, no one is trying to piss you off, they're acting that way because of some unseen circumstance. If you can think of any possible reason they might be acting that way other than to make you angry, assume that is why they did it. Always put yourself in someone else's place.
Be kind, please rewind.
Drink water. Plenty of it. From the tap/bottles/whatever. Recycle your bottles.
Get closer to your natural state. Spend time in nature. Run. Workout. Simulate chasing and fighting prey. We are built for survival. Eat berries and nuts and red meat. The closer we get to that natural state the better we feel. People never think about it that way.
Make strangers smile. The public aren't all assholes. You're usually just being an asshole by not caring. Care about strangers' days. Ask them how they are. Be genuine.
Turn off your fucking phone. Take control of your data on social media. Curate your web presence with security in mind. Don't let them build a profile of you. They will use that to manipulate you. (See: Cambridge Analytica)
Give a hobo a smoke. You're not killing him. He already smokes. You don't have to worry about him spending your money on liquor. You don't have to go buy him food or anything (although I'm sure he'd appreciate it). But you still bring a little happiness into his world. And one cigarette ain't shit to you anyway. You have a job.
Take the connections you form and run with them. Better to get close to someone (even if you lose it all) than to constantly wonder and be uncomfortable.
Meditate every day. Teach your friends to meditate.
Help everyone you can. In the Boy Scouts the slogan is "do a good turn every day". That's not just to make the organization look good. It's to make YOU FEEL good. Help people out.
Just love yourself and love each other it's literally all I can think of.
Recycle, donate blood, register as an organ donor, volunteer, use public transport or walk/cycle more often, don’t buy a puppy from a breeder, don’t go ride an abused elephant or stroke a drugged up tiger, pay it forward, don’t buy the entire stock of something because you have a coupon, even if you’re donating it to charity, other people might wanna buy them too, observe the speed limit, use contraception, research before you vote, but do go and vote if you can, turn the tap off while brushing your teeth, don’t use a hosepipe to water your lawn, collect rainwater in water-buts, buy food when it’s in season, and NEVER PUT MILK IN YOUR TEA BEFORE THE WATER.
Don't be that asshole that leaves the shopping cart in the parking lot. If there isn't a proper place to put it outside where the employees can collect it, just walk it back in. It won't kill you to make the trip back so someone doesn't have to do it at closing in the dark.
Don't preorder games.
Reduce, Reuse, Recycle
Buy from thrift shops and farmer’s markets. Go vegetarian/vegan or just eat less meat.
Cut the 6 pack rings!
Adopt pets from shelters, don't buy them.
It's a great failure of humanity that we're intentionally making more dogs/cats as the ones we already have are being executed for mostly no reason.
PS: often times you can also get more exotic pets (rabbits snakes horses etc.) from county shelters, so take a look.
Put your fucking phone down while you are driving.
Have fewer children.
Signing up for organ donations if we die, I don't agree with opt-out systems whereby people's organs are taken without their explicit permission, but people should definitely give up things they objectively don't need after death.
Talking to your Grandma regularly (AND NOT OUT OF PITY). She loves you so much, and no matter how much you deny it, she won't be around here much longer. Get to actually know her, put effort into it (you know how much she does), and you will never, ever regret it, or at the very least, regret it less that letting her die before you could get to know her.
Veganism/vegetarianism. It's feasible for most people in developed countries, it's not worse for your health, it's better for the environment, it's a fuckton better for the animals, its less expensive, and it doesnt taste worse if you learn how to cook.
If you really can't stop eating cheese, fine. If you just have to have that ham sandwich, ok. Just be conscious about it and modify where YOU feel comfortable.
Im suprised I didn't see this further up...
Empathy.
Going vegan! :)
Going vegan.
Not having children
Stop circumcising children. It’s not okay. It’s sexual mutilation.
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Dude don’t say that. That’s fucked up.
Sexual? Doubt it. But mutilation nonetheless.
Well when you take into account there’s no medical reason to circumcise babies and the later effects on sexual performance and life in general, and of course motivations for circumcising children it does become a sexual mutilation. Circumcision was invented to limit sexual desires. Now fashion. It’s horrible. For men the skin removed equals to a 3x5 index card. The penis is intended to be an internal organ that’s why men are born with it to begin with.
Don't get me wrong, I do agree that it is a horrible ritual that should be dealt with.
No worries mate just spreading the good word.
What's wrong with male circumcision? From what I understand there isn't any concrete proof one way or the other about it being beneficial or harmful.
That’s a misconception a great deal of people have. However every major medical organization dealing with doctors and nurses have all stated that male circumcision should not be performed unless it is deem medically necessary. They are not medically necessary on their own. The effects to men last their whole lives. Definitely look into it more because there’s way more to it than what I’ve said on here. But I’m a doctor and I can tell you they are harmful on multiple levels. Please check into it. Cheers
Go vegan.
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So you aren't really rasta? 0_o
Uhm... why isn't becoming Vegan one of the top rated comments?
Oh right, because that's too inconvenient...
Sort by controversial to get the real answers. ;)
I'd prefer to just use my reusable bag. It's a lot easier and makes me feel great about myself.
Going Vegan.
Recycling and keeping your water consumption low is nothing compared to stopping the disastrous effects of factory farming, one person at a time.
Every vegan meal instead of a hamburger saves about 3000 gallons of water. Please research. Thanks for reading this far.
keeping your water consumption low is nothing compared to stopping the disastrous effects of factory farming
As a Colorado resident this one hits home. We are having a dry winter which has us worried about water. People are ranting about how people need to stop moving here because water. Yet 86% of the water used in the state is for agriculture and the majority of agriculture here is cattle (meat and dairy).Yea lets attack the 14% of our water budget.
But muh bacon and muh lions
You guys need to help push for legalization efforts in other states if you want that influx to slow down. Federal legalization isn't gonna cut it, too many states are going to drag ass and their citizens are going to keep moving to the weed mecca of the US
Vegetarian?
Edit: Maybe even vegan?
It's amazing how this doesn't even appear on the first page of comments. It's not even mentioned once. I had to sort by controversial to find any instance of meat-free diets.
Not killing animals is one of the biggest ethical decisions you can make! Redditors seriously don't wanna let this one go.
Go vegan
Cleaning properly, especially washing hands, spreading germs is the grossest shit IMO
Go vegan
Wow people are downvoting with no explanation. Stay classy reddit
I can’t believe I haven’t seen this here yet but please look into going vegan if you are in a place in the world where a vegan diet is sustainable. I’m not going to unload all the typical arguments but just consider if eating meat is really a necessity for you. For me it comes down to this: I am privileged enough to live in a country where my life does not depend on killing animals for food or using their bi-products. Do you? Dm me if you have any questions!
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I’m glad you agree! It’s good to see it catching the public eye.
I already told this to another person but eating meat has NOTHING to do with ethics. Is all about morality.
This comment doesn't make sense.
Then learn the difference between ethics and morals.
They're deeply interconnected at their roots. If you'd like the definition of ethics: "moral principles that govern a person's behavior or the conducting of an activity." I'd like to know what your interpretations of these are and how you seem to be seperating them so easily.
Alright, I will tell you.
Yes, I understand your interpretation of ethics as it is closely related to morals. However, I relate ethics to one's behavior in public and not as one's personal values. Ex: you would not say eating meat at a work place is unethical because it would not go against a company policy (if not stated). Instead, you would go along the lines of "I thought you had better morals, principles and values."
Basically:
Ethics = work/public behaviour
Morals = your values/principles
Interesting. So, I understand the distinction you're making. These differing interpretations can be found quickly with a google search. However, there are plenty of ethicists who won't draw such a seperating line between the two. Your individual moral values and principles are generally stemming from or are based on an ethical theory or framework. If you personally believe something along the lines of "killing the innocent is immoral", the basis for your interpretation of that immorality is grounded in a foundation of ethics. The two fundamentally influence eachother, and it seems to border on illogical to say that morals can exist totally separate from ethics since "ethics" is the philosophical branch of study that looks at and deals with morality. This is why my original comment said that yours didn't make sense. The idea that something can have nothing to do with ethics while simoltaniously being all about morality has large blind spots since public (and private) behavior is guided by your values and your values and principles manifest as behavior. Eating meat, as it involves a victim, would be argued as being unethical and immoral at the same time. I would argue that "eating meat in the workplace" actually is unethical, since eating meat is unethical in and of itself regardless of where you eat it or what the company policy is. Just because company policy isn't against something doesn't mean that it can't be unethical now.
Could you live today without eating meat?
Yes
Ive seen ten times. Downvoted all of them :)
Can you explain why going vegan is not an ethical choice?
Consume responsibly. Go vegan for compassion or for the environment. If not, make sure you know what you're consuming. Get to know the being and the suffering it has to endure for what you have on your plate. Basically don't be ignorant about the consequences of your choices. Food, cosmetics, clothes, whatever it is.
Going vegan. There is no moral justification for eating meat and it has a lot of positive environmental effects.
Consider a vegan diet, or at least try your best to eat more plant-based. As tasty as steak and cheese and eggs are, they’re not even that good for you. There are many healthier, ethical ways to get the nutrients animal products provide, and you can do it all without killing or abusing animals.
Stop eating animal products
Trying to cut down on meat.
I'm not saying become a vegan, but there are loads of great dishes that don't need meat. Having 2 days every week without meat (that's only 4 meals, assuming you don't have meat for breakfast) reduces your meat consumption by 30%.
If everyone did this, we would solve a ridiculous amount of world issues: deforestation, the obesity epidemic, CO2 emissions, all just by eating veggie a few meals or a couple of days per week.
Are you saying we would solve these issues by not eating meat two days a week?
Going vegan is the most impactful, ethical choice that you can start making immediately.
Stop eating sentient animals.
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He has a point though
Or she. Or they. Or what every they might be.
Animals are living beings to and so deserve to experience life just like you or me.
Stop throwing your cigarette butts on the roads, sidewalks, etc.
I see people flick them all the time and it's annoying. Especially when there's a trash can not too far away.
Eating less beef. Honestly, eating too much meat in general is one of the things I do on a daily basis that I feel completely unethical doing. The treatment of the animals is absolutely atrocious for most meat, and beef in particular adds an insane amount to climate change. I sometimes really feel the urge to go full vegetarian. I just really like meat though :(
The mock meats are getting better all the time! :) I’d recommend really committing to it just for a month and researching to make sure it goes well. It’s usually very easy for someone who is already concerned with the treatment of animals
I sometimes really feel the urge to go full vegetarian. I just really like meat though :(
even a sharp reduction in consumption would earthquake the "big beef" businesses.
McCartney advocates for "meat free monday" where you just don't eat any one day a weak. If everyone in the U.S. started this tomorrow there would be a HUGE shakeup in beef production. The hit would be massive.
Unfortunately, most Americans feel it's necessary to have a meat portion in every meal, every day.
Watch earthlings if you haven't already. I watched it on a whim 3 years ago and I've been happily vegan ever since.
sometimes really feel the urge to go full vegetarian
Do it! I went vegan a few years ago and I have never been healthier or happier. It's delicious, nutritious, and environmentally responsible. You are always welcome over at r/vegan for tips, advice, recipes, support, etc.
Also, I’m sure someone has mentioned it, but veganism is a diet centered around ethics. For folks that won’t go vegan, choosing to eat less meat and dairy through the week is still good.
Go Vegan
why is killing plants ok?
Do you care about plant welfare? If yes, go vegan. Eating plants directly causes fewer of them to die to meet your dietary requirements. As for why it's ok in the first place, they don't have nerves and as far as I can tell, have no mechanisms to feel pain.
with your logic why should avoid killing plants at all
For the same reason you don't destroy everything you can. Because it'll affect you negatively. Plants play an important role in the ecosystem, the economy, and they're just plain old fun to look at. That's not to mention some plants are property and you might get fined/jailed for killing them.
I don't know but considering how meat eaters kill far more plants than vegans do, you should really consider a more ethical vegan diet
;)
Right? What do you think all of the animals eat before they're slaughtered? (Hint: it's not air.) But that would only even be a valid argument if we actually entertain the idea that plants can feel pain and therefore eating plants and meat are similar.
Im not the one advocating against killing, so try to defend your point for once
Stop eating the other sentient earthlings. killing for taste is a choice and we have the power to stop it in most places in 2018.
Go vegan!
Going vegan, you murderers
Calling someone a murderer for eating meat is the same as calling someone a murder for using oil that was procured through war or saying you violate human rights for taking oil from a country with terrible treatment of humans. You're also a sweatshop owner for purchasing products from countries that use sweatshops and child labour.
If these issues bother you I suggest you sow your own clothes and go live in the woods, leave your phone and laptop behind as well please, for our sake.
That'd be a misleading comparison. While we currently still largely need oil to fuel our vehicles, which in turn are required for us to drive to work and other socially productive and necessary activities, animal product consumption is not a necessity. You not only can survive without it (and actually be potentially healthier, according to several studies) but it also doesn't hinder your daily socially productive activities or personal pursuits (unless you're pursuing heart disease or colon, breast/prostate cancer).
Laptops and phones are currently necessary if you want to function in society. They can be work tools or required for interaction with important contacts geographically apart.
that'd be a misleading comparison
Misleading...huh..kind of like calling people murderers when they haven't killed anything
In history, as well as in present time, there are several examples of people who were condemned for murder for ordering or sponsoring the execution. Ex. Nazi official Adolf Eichmann, cult leader Charles Manson, etc.
Not being the one pulling the trigger or plunging the blade, in these cases, doesn't make a person less of an originator of murder.
Yeah you see the thing is murder is when people kill other people. You can't actually murder an animal, by definition.
This definition, as any other definitions, is a fruit of the time it has been coined. All words have their meanings updated. Why update the term murder to include humans, you may ask? Because, exclusively when it comes to negative rights (rights that requires others to abstain from interfering with your life and natural behaviour), there is no logically relevant difference between humans and animals that justify killing one and not the other. Before you say it, no, this DOES NOT mean that animals deserve ALL the SAME rights as humans, just the same negative rights.
It's different.
So...
See now how it's not the same friend?
Lol yeah those issues don't count because it's possible to get the products without them fair enough you don't actually have to kill to get meat, the animal could have lived a full happy life and died of natural causes, see how that works friend
you don't actually have to kill to get meat, the animal could have lived a full happy life and died of natural causes.
Yeah, but... do you? That's the point of veganism: to take action now, to vote with your dollar. The demand for vegan products has increased more than 200% in the last 2 years.
yeah but... Do you?
Good job getting my point. Take that quote and apply it to what you said about oil and products :)
Hard to vote with my dollar considering I use euro rip.
Nope, youre a straight up murderer. You cant deny it.
What are you saying nope to exactly? I didn't even say you were incorrect I was simply applying your logic to other situations . Also guess what, I'm not a murder , wow I was able to deny it :D go me. Call me a murderer if you want, but know from the bottom of my heart, that I'm laughing at you.
It was all a joke guy, i cant believe you replied to it with a serious comment. Maybe think a little bit more the next time you reply to an obviously inflammatory statement.
This post is full of people making the same or similar comments and being serious about it. When a post is full of people making a serious statement and then you make the same one and assume people will realise you're joking then you're a moron.
Fuck off mate, the only idiot here is you.
Lol nice one, i point out how retarded your post was and your response is fuck off. GGWP.
Veganism.
On top of the obvious cruelty and abuse that comes along with animal agriculture, it is the leading cause of human driven climate change and eating animal products is largely responsible for the most deadly diseases that humans are plagued with like heart disease, diabetes, and many cancers. Raising animals for food is fucking up the planet, draining our healthcare system and unnecessarily torturing and killing 8 billion animals EVERY DAY.
When you acknowledge that we don’t need animal products to be healthy, any argument against veganism is an argument in favour of animal abuse.
we don’t need animal products to be healthy
This is true for a lot of people, but not everyone.
Also, if we suddenly stopped eating animals, what are we going to do with the billions, perhaps trillions, of animals on the Earth that were destined for food consumption, but now are just free to roam around?
Not everyone is going to stop eating meat overnight. But all those animals have been bred by humans specifically for food via artificial insemination. As more and more people stop eating animals, less and less animals will be bred until that number is zero.
Chickens and cows are not going to take over the world lmao
Since we can't kill them anymore, what are we going to do with them all?
Are we going to prevent them from breeding? Where are they going to live? Who is going to pay to feed them?
These kinds of questions quickly bring idealistic veganism to a halt, simply because it's not feasible.
Except they've been answered, time and time again. 10% of cow factory farms in the UK were shut down between 2014 and 2017. Therefore, one can assume that something like there are 5-15% less cows bred. That will continue to happen. There will be so few that we'll have an answer to handle them all. It won't happen overnight.
They don’t breed on their own. They are artificially inseminated by humans. People stop eating meat -> animals stop being bred -> animals stop being slaughtered
This really isn’t complicated.
Animals don't breed on their own?
This this next level stupidity.
Animals farmed for food do not breed on their own. What do you think happens on a farm? A cow orgy? Do you think the animals seduce each other, fall in love, and start a family?
I’ll tell you what happens. The farmer jacks off a bull and collects his semen. Then he traps the female cow in something called a ‘rape rack’ where she cannot run away. He then shoves his fist and entire arm up the cows anus and injects the bull semen into her vagina, impregnating her.
Once the baby is born, it is immediately removed from the mother cow so that the farmer can start collecting and selling the milk that her body produces intending to feed her baby. The mother screams for days in search of her baby. This process is repeated continuously until the cow is too exhausted to stand and starts to produce less and less milk, at which point she is slaughtered for meat. Usually around 5 years old. A cows natural life span is about 25. If the calf is male, he will be raised for a few months alone in a small shed, fed meal replacement formula, and then slaughtered for veal. If the calf is female, she too will become a milk machine like her mother and be slaughtered for meat when she is no longer useful.
The only thing here that is “next level stupid” is your ignorance.
I asked what would happen after we no longer use them for food, I'm well aware of how modern factory farming works.
Jesus fucking Christ. They. Will. Stop. Being. Bred. They will no longer exist.
How are you going to prevent them from breeding?
Do you think the industry that was just decimated is going to pay to house, feed, care and sterilize them?
If so, you're dumber than you seem.
Holy. Shit. Are you even a real person? If there was a Reddit gold for stupidest person in a sub, I would give it to you. Unless you’re just a troll.
Not everyone is going to stop eating meat in one day. Whether or not we like it, all the animals currently alive will be slaughtered for food. But as demand dwindles so will supply. The more people that go vegan, the less animals will be bred and killed. If everyone eventually turned vegan there would be no more cows, chickens, pigs etc. None to house, none to feed, none to slaughter. Zero.
You completely misunderstood the point of my post, and the question that I asked.
Must be the B12 deficiency.
edit: lel the instant downvoting because someone has challenged your myopic world view.
Your logic baffles me...
Are you suggesting that there is no way for the human population to reduce its meat consumption?
When was this ever said?
I simply asked what we're going to do with the billions (perhaps trillions) of animals now that we can't kill them, and suddenly have to divert a massive amount of the food we need to feed humans to animals.
You said idealistic veganism is not feasible, which I took to mean that you think there is no path to a mostly vegan population.
Going vegetarian or vegan.
So many resources get poured into making meat. Until it can be grown in a lab it needs to at least be heavily reduced.
Try to be as vegan as possible if you live in America. I was a huge meat eater and cheese head, and was super skeptical of vegans (thought they were crazy). But it was the best decision I ever made. American factory farms are unsupportable the way they treat humans and animals. Going vegan makes it easy to avoid (see choice paralysis).
Yea, but it is hard to go that way and avoid soy.
There are increasing amounts of soy free vegan products over the years I’ve been vegan. There are vegans who avoid soy probably for similar reasons you are avoiding it. Whole plants are always better than their processed progeny. Soy isn’t really my jam personally even though I have no allergy or adverse dietary effects.
Hard is relative, too. It’s harder at first but gets easier. Also why I put “as vegan as possible” in my post. No shame in doing what you can do.
True. Thanks!
Not really. I haven't ate any soy today and I wont.
Breakfast:
Green Smoothie with hemp and chia seeds
Lunch:
Thai Red Curry (vegan) with rice
Dinner:
Chickpea sandwich with hot peppers
2nd Dinner:
Pasta with red sauce
Snacks:
Pistachios
Dark chocolate
Larabar
kiwi
Cucumbers
carrots
hummus
Damn I’m hungry.
Go Vegan, it's really not that hard, and you get used to it relatively fast. Sidenote: Yes, you can get all the nutrients you need, whether you are a super athlete or not.
Fewer kids. Not 0 kids, I think that's unreasonable, but in this day and age No one should be walking around with a fucking team.
The problem with overpopulation isn't that westerners are having too many children, if anything they're having too little to maintain a stable population. The problem is that people in developing countries are having too many children.
This is true. You could make the argument that western children will consume more resources in their lifetime, simply but being born into a lifestyle that allows them to consume more (think cars, electronics, food, travel, etc) but yes I agree with your point that people in the developing world are having way too many kids. Sadly the answer to that problem is the education and betterment of women and girls, which in many developing countries is not the norm.
Not 0 kids, I think that's unreasonable
Why?
It's unreasonable to think that you can convince someone who wants kids to have 0. If someone has already made up their mind to have kids, it would be tough to have them fight that natural, evolutionary urge to procreate. You can maybe convince them to have fewer kids.
It's unreasonable to think that you can convince someone who wants kids to have 0.
I already did that a few times.
But most people are really enslaved by a dumb DNA molecule.
If they are incapable of making the right decisions using logic, perhaps we should make decisions for them.
It's not wrong to have kids. It is an awseome wonderful experience that bring joy to ones life. I'm just saying limit the number. I gather that you don't want any. That's fine. If you don't want them, please don't have any. At the same time don't look down on people who do. It's a lifelong investment in the world as well as your own future. It's the most unselfish thing a person can do. It's not for everyone and that's fine, but don't act like you are in the supreme right because you reasoned yourself out of wanting children.
It's not wrong to have kids.
It is, and I can demonstrate it. But that depends of whether or not you understand negative utilitarianism.
In a nutshell: there is a moral duty to prevent the existence of unhappy people, but there is no moral duty in causing the existence of more happy people.
Life doesn't need to exist. No one is crying about the fact that there are no martians on Mars partying right now. Life creates needs. It creates the problems. It's absence is not a problem.
But what is life? We are chemical machines that have been built over four billion years. And we’ve been tested in what can be called quite accurately as a gladiator war where the machine went into battle, and if you won your DNA got replicated. And that’s all it was. And as time evolved the war became more complex. As the organisms evolved they got more and more elaborate tools. So we gained all of those elaborate individual tools to do this DNA conservation thing more efficiently. And then it became gang warfare essentially. Gangs of lions or gangs this or tribes of that. And then the tribe’s genes essentially started evolving together.
But there was no intent in this shit. Whatever works works. That's the only rule. No end goal. It's going nowhere.
Call it what it is. There’s exploitation all over the place. To talk about this adaptation, purpose, this balance crap is just a lie. There’s winners and losers in disgracefully uneven proportions on this planet.
"The pleasure in this world, it has been said, outweighs the pain; or, at any rate, there is an even balance between the two. If the reader wishes to see shortly whether this statement is true, let him compare the respective feelings of two animals, one of which is engaged in eating the other."
You create need machines, and even the winners among them only manage to satisfy some of all the needs and desires that is imposed onto them. Evolution IS a story. And it’s not a good story. It’s a story of a forced march. Four billion years of little machines struggling to trip the other guy. To fuck the other guy over. To eat the other guy’s guts. There’s organisms all over this planet who’s only mission is dig a hole inside of you and to eat your fucking brains. Don’t talk to me about how balanced, perfect and purposeful all this crap is. There obviously isn’t any sensible, rational, logical reason to perpetuate gladiator war. There’s no way you can make this, the naked truth of evolution, into a good story. It’s a negative story, it’s decisively negative. The function is survival by any mechanism and any means possible. Whatever can happen can happen. No empires. No rules. Just a blood sport. And for nothing. Nothing in the end. Just a raised hand of I win and You die. It’s a crude and stupid game.
And us humans, our intelligence only exists because it’s a scheming tool, and it still remains its only function. To be used as a scheming too to derive gratification or satisfaction of our own selfish desires. And most of the human race is still completely owned by this nonsense. They’re still more obedient to their notions of nepotism, family superiority, nationalism, racism, than they are devoted to any high-minded ideal of civilization or decency, or justice or fairness.
We shouldn't wallow in our emotions, we should try to overcome this sick equation we are all invested in. That's just going to create more needers, more exploitation, more pointless suffering.
The game is consciousness. Sentience. The game is managing it so you don't get all this blood and guts and suffering and misery all over the god damn table. You have invested in a philosophy when you have presumed that there is no design flaw, and i'm pointing out that there is a design flaw. The whole system is corrupt at its base and you don't want to hear it.
It is an awesome wonderful experience that bring joy to ones life.
Pretty much a selfish decision. You're gambling with someone else's welfare who might have a very shitty life (even if you do your best, shit happens) just to satisfy your own selfish desires.
You're pretty much breeding to NOT have to deal with the desire of doing it.
It's the most unselfish thing a person can do.
HAHAHAHA
Fuck no. The most unselfish thing a person can do is to adopt a child that already existed and already needed care, or helping sentient beings who already exist instead of creating more needers like people who reproduce do, as they are pretty much owned by a molecule instead of reason.
Before we bring more people into this shit, we should fix it and make it less shitty.
It's not for everyone and that's fine, but don't act like you are in the supreme right because you reasoned yourself out of wanting children.
And of course you just assume it's based on my personal preference and that there is no rational argument to be made.
Fuck you for this.
Can I walk around with the fucking A-Team though?
In developed countries I would say even 4 is too much. Unless they are he actual A-team, in which case, why not!
Not eating animal products. They're unnecessary for the vast, vast majority of people, yet cause so much harm and torture to innocent animals.
Absolutely ridiculous that cutting out animal products is so far down this page.
Stop eating animals
No.
Avoid air travel. Eat less cow.
Air travel is wildly more fuel efficient than driving for any kind of long distances
Sea travel is phenomenally more expensive and arguably worse for the environment.
So? Live in land-locked Central Europe? Just drive to the far-west end of Europe, then drive across the Atlantic Ocean to America!
Sea travel produces massive amounts of pollution - it's true. The problem with air travel though is that is puts CO2 up in the atmosphere where it can most directly contribute to climate change.
It’s got to be a plant based diet. The meat and dairy industry is by far the biggest cause of damage to the environment, due to factors such as being the biggest of deforestation, and the activity taking up most global resources (the average burger utilises the same amount of water as if a shower was left running for two months). It is difficult to believe that as a planet we have the ability to be sustainable, when statistics show that over 50 billion animals were slaughtered In slaughterhouses. Not only is this morally wrong, but it is to perverse and illogical to argue that this does not have such an effect on the planet.
I’m not saying people should totally discard meat from their diets and it is of course their choice, but in order to conduct an ethical lifestyle, one should at least live on a flexitarian diet.
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Plus it's cheaper and healthier as long as you're supplementing correctly and eating a balanced diet!
as long as you're supplementing correctly
Uh, okay. Sure buddy. You already said "eating a balanced diet." So... you think somehow that AFTER doing something that has as a side-effect a significant UPGRADE to one's nutrition that vegans need to start slurping up vitamin pills? Whatevs.
I'm not sure why you're so militantly against plant based diet. I'm not even vegetarian but I don't drink milk and eat meat once or twice a week. One of the most carcinogenic things we consume is red meat, and seared or blackened meat is full of carcinogens.
Obviously human diet recquires certain things like iron and b-12 that we get from animal products, but there are other sources that don't require eating meat. I avoid eating factory farmed meat because the disregard these mass producers have for animals is disgusting. Besides, I don't want to put these imbred mutant sick drug filled animals on my plate. It's gross how they're treated and it's gross putting it in my body. I much prefer getting meat from farms who treat animals with enough respect to not lock them up in cages with no room to walk or breath fresh air. That or hunting my own deer or fishing trout out of the pond.
What's wrong with taking 2 supplements daily and getting protein from plants? It's better for everyone including yourself, animals, and the environment.
Just wanted to add that iron supplements generally aren't needed. I actually have higher iron levels now than I did when I ate animal products. B12 is the only supplement that is strictly necessary for vegans.
I'm vegan, friend, and have been for just over ten years now. You misunderstood my comment. I'm actually pretty unhappy about the assumption that people make that eating a plant-based diet requires one to consume supplements, and people who really know nothing about it sometimes assume that vegans have to consume a very large number supplements just to survive. It's ridiculous. Everyone needs B12 supplementation, omnivore or vegan or whatever, but yes, absolutely, plants contain everything else that humans need to thrive.
Veganism it justs makes sense on so many levels
For the love of god, stop buying fast fashion. Forever 21, H&M, all that garbage.
Why
It’s wasteful. The clothes fall apart after wearing them a few times and you go buy more
They have horribly unethical production. So just a second of research on the CEO of forever 21.
Any recommendations on cheap clothes with decent quality and from and ethical company?
Hmm. Zara is a bit better! Old Navy is crazy cheap too. I honestly think it’s better to just spend a bit more and own less clothing- I get pretty pricey jeans but they last several years! Same with shoes!
Mind your own fucking business especially in terms of religion
Sop raising animals to slaughter. They feel fear, they feel pain. Your diet is fine without mutilating animals so you can eat a cheeseburger.
This article is a modern ethical treatise on the subject, including lab grown meat. Its a great read.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/12/animal-welfare-standards-animal-cruelty-abolition-morality-factory-farming-animal-use-industries/
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We know they feel pain - isn't that enough of a reason not to hurt them?
They hunt and kill each other. Eating meat is as natural as existing. It's not an invention of humanity like warfare is.
Who cares if its natural, its unnecessary cruelty. We don't need to eat animals for survival, so why would we.
Stop the unethical killing of animals simply for our pleasure.
How about the unethical killing of babies for convenience?
I have a floppy eared bunny named chester? That comment had exactly the same amount of relevance as yours did there buddy.
Go Vegan. Too hard? Go vegetarian. Still too hard? Cut out all beef products. Animal agriculture does more to damage the earths environment than all the fossil fuel emissions combined.
Go vegan. That’s it
Go vegan! Not only is it the ethical choice for the animals, but also for the planet. Animal agriculture is BY FAR the biggest producer of carbon emissions as well as the biggest cause of deforestation. The facts are undeniable, but we can all help out by not eating animal products!
Please consider using public transit more often
Epistemological self examination.
“Why do I hold the beliefs I do?”
“Are the methods I use to determine my beliefs are true reliable”
“Should I hold these beliefs if they cannot be reliably shown to be true?”
Please people.. stop and think
Respecting women
Donate clothes, don't trash em
Do not have kids if you're not 100% sure you want them, or if you think you can't raise them (if you have no money, time, and the emotional and mental commitment needed). And especially don't have kids because you think it's going to fix your life--it won't. Maybe make it more bearable, but your feelings can change dude, and kids know when they are unwanted. Just the title family is not enough. Don't have kids if you think you're going to be resentful about it.
Have fewer children. Having more than two kids is irresponsible from a global perspective.
I say this as a fourth child. I don't blame people for not knowing the implications of their actions, but knowledge is power and fewer kids will help reduce the human impact on the planet.
Adopt a pet, don't buy from a petshop or a breeder.
Not sure if it is really an ethics issue, but turn your damn headlights on in any sort of inclement weather. Rain, snow, fog, hail, frogs falling from the sky, literally anything that makes it hard to see. It's not so YOU can see where you're going as much as it is so everyone around you can see your car better. It's safer for everybody.
If you have a car like mine (Toyota) that turns the headlights off automatically after you turn off the car if you leave the switch on, then just leave them on all the time. You won't have to replace them much more often and you won't have to rememeber to turn them on.
Ordering meat and not eating it. I'm no vegan/vegetarian but whenever I see people throwing away meat it just makes me mad, "Hey I just killed an animal to have it fried and then thrown in the trash bin for absolutely no particular reason".
Have fewer children.
Seeking out the dark forces and joining their hellish crusade
Why are you dressed like somebody died?
Don't be a cunt
Stop using disposable plastic. Carry canvas totes and decline plastic bags at checkout. Find ways to reuse items rather than throw them away.
Don't self-destruct for somebody that's manipulating you.
Be the person Mr. Rodgers wants you to be.
Stop buying foods that contain palm oil in any amount.
Production of palm oil is unsustainable and destroying fragile ecosystems.
Quit smoking.
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Help me understand the maths here.
Just be fucking nice and respect other people
WASH YOUR DAMN HANDS MATE!
Try a psychodelic at least once in your life!
I'm not saying do it because some guy on Reddit told you to. Research them. Educate yourself. Understand that basically everything you've been told about them is a lie.
When used correctly they are amazing for treating depression and addiction as well as just giving you a more positive outlook on life. You may find yourself becoming more empathetic and caring as well and a better human being in general.
If you can't afford children, choose not to have them. Understandable if it can't be helped but where it can, you should choose not to bring a child into the world to suffer.
Stop having fucking kids unless you are reasonably assured you can raise them in a stable, two parent household.
If you get rejected by someone you asked out, don't take it too hard and don't project blame. Be understanding and kind.
Stop breeding dogs/cats. Get them fixed. You are literally breeding animals that will statistically be put down.
Not having children.
This will probably get drowned, but donating blood.
For the planets' sake:
-Recycle everything you can
-Don't have more than 2 children
-Leave nature/parks at or better than when you started
-Don't over consume
-Stop having lawns. They waste resources.
For mankind's sake:
-Be fair and kind to others
-Treat others the way you would want to be treated
-Try to see things from the other person's point of view
-Don't accept bullshit from people who are bullshitting you
We should adopt. World population is growing yet it’s rare kids get adopted. Everyone wants a baby, not a child with behavioral problems, but those are the kids that need love the most.
Better yet, stop having kids if you aren't going to take care of them. A lot of problems would be solved if there were 1/2 as many humans on this planet.
Stop reproducing, walk hand and hand into extinction. One last midnight, brothers and sisters opting out of a raw deal.
I'm glad so many people are proponents for veganism, especially since it means more meat for me.
If you’re in England, buy British and if it’s not possible (eg bananas) buy organic.
Start to think about the way the animals we use for food and products are treated. Cows for dairy kept permanently in stalls, poor treatment during life and inhumane deaths, geese being plucked for down. The list goes on and on. I'm not saying I'm perfect but increasing try to buy products that have certified humane treatment, free run, synthetic down (although that's got an environmental trade-off) and so on. But just to get people talking and thinking about it is a good first step
Pay your debts off especially in a tough economy and don't buy what you can't afford
Pick up your dog’s crap... every time.
When using public transportation: Let people out before going in (please).
Don't use kids as pawns.
This applies to unhappy marriages, divorces and many and plenty of other things kids are constantly used in as pawns.
So in all reality this over used phrase is also a comeback to those that abuse it "think of the children"
we need to bring back common courtesy and spacial awareness. people just dont give a fuck about others anymore. Everyone is so damn selfish.
Don't hit your kids.
It doesn't work, no matter how much you love your parents who hit you. The fact you ended up "ok" is anecdotal evidence and all the real science shows it is in fact detrimental to their future success.
Plus nobody knows for sure how ‘ok’ they are
I could not have written that more tactfully. Thanks.
Is "hitting" the same as spanking?
In this context, yes.
I'm way too late but this thread is great. I didn't saw a post on pets tho, always choose adoption over buying, visit or volunteer at your local shelter, make an animal happy, they will thank you forever :)
Also, try composting if you can/have room for it.
Edit: I forgot to mention that eating less meat, as it has been said many times already is awesome for various reasons, and even if it sounds a bit gross for some I think humanity should start to see insects as a better and nutritious alternative to meat!!!
Invest in companies that treat their employees well.
I went through some lists of companies with the highest employee satisfaction and invested a few hundred dollars in each one. I've got investments in various mutual funds and other accounts, but my little employee satisfaction index fund consistently outperforms them.
Reduce Reuse and Recycle come to mind. For a while I was trying to just Recycle water bottles and do that part. When I really looked at it though it was better to reduce how much I used water bottles and Reusing a plastic water bottle that is washable and whatnot. Also don't pay less for a product if it supports bad business practices. Sure a lot of companies have monopolies are terrible but you need to still pick the lesser evil or make a sacrifice occasionally. I still do a lot of unethical things here and there but I'm still trying to be a bit better when I can
Adopt, don't shop. Seriously I can not stress this enough to people
Take a portable coffee cup with you in your bag for when you stop somewhere for coffee.
Eating far less meat and driving less. 91% of the Amazon that is being burned down is happening to make room for beef cattle.
Go into conversations with the mindset that maybe you will learn something from the other person, rather than “I’m right, and this person is stupid”.
Making people feel stupid isn’t a good way to change minds.
Voting democratic, if you vote republican you are ruining the world.
What an open minded, fair comment Comrade
Seriously? Both sides do shady shit, both sides do what's best for them or their party. You think the Democratic party is some god send because they align with your views. But they really only do so because it's more beneficial for them to maintain that image to get your votes/donations just as republicans do with their image because they are trying to get/keep an entirely different demographic
You want to see real improvement to our government?
We need to get rid of the 2 party system all together and get people more choices then red or blue
Funny that I'm being upvoted and you down. Personally we should round up anyone that voted for Rump and revoke thier voting rights.
We should all stop buying products with non-biodegradable packaging.
Don't be a prick.
Flossing. I know it sounds simple but it’s so important. You don’t even have to do it that good. Just simply use a Placker, you know the floss on a stick thing. Just making sure you don’t have food stuck in between your teeth has so many benefits. It helps with bad breath, possible pain in the future for your teeth, and tons of dental bills. I always have Plackers around me and have great teeth at 45. I know people who are in their early 20s with halitosis so bad I can’t be within 3 feet of them.
Good one! And it reduces the risk of heart Disease
Recycling and composting!
Put your shopping cart away
Don’t be a douchebag
Stop letting children make the final decisions. "he only like Mac and cheese", "he cries of he doesn't get candy" "he hates reading so we have to give him an iPad".
Stop giving your kid the Mac and cheese. They will eat broccoli before they starve. They are fucking children. They will be fine. Raise them to have good habits and expectations.
I read a little blurb about this yesterday. It's super important for parents and older siblings to display well rounded and not picky eating habits around children. If you make a big deal about a food, drink, meal, etc., then they will, too.
Yeah that makes sense. I think will power is the most important thing. No child with a plate full of vegetables and meatloaf has ever starved in America. If they don't it for dinner on Monday, then serve it as breakfast on Tuesday. If you show a child that you aren't fucking around they will usually respond.
Acknowledge that other people are just that... people.
They're just as complex, they feel, they love, they struggle... just like you.
When comparing cosmetics, or other health and beauty items, take an extra second to check for the cruelty free symbol. A lot of brands, from drugstore to high end, are vegan and/or cruelty free. It's a really easy change to make and you don't have to sacrifice on cost or quality.
So many people trying to encourage others to start with small steps and reduce meat consumption only to be overrun by the internet vegan Borg who can't take a good thing.
Every comment is either "Go vegan" or "Just try eating a little less meat" which is promptly replied to with fifty people saying it's not enough.
We get it, you're morally superior. Now do you actually want to help or not?
Goddamn right.
Using cruelty free makeup and hygiene products. It’s not that much more and retail giants like target are making it all the easier to access it. Doing a little research goes a long way! You don’t have to replace everything at once either, it’s expensive. Use up old products and replace them with new, cruelty free products :)
Killing ourselves.
Cutting back on meat consumption. You don't have to go full blown vegan but factory farms are one of the leading contributors to CO2 emissions. I try to have for vegetarian days a week and if I can source meat from local, sustainable farms that is ideal.
Stop driving. Go vegan. Don’t have more than one child, if you have to have any. Try to foster and support natural habitats. Remover ocean miles do as much damage as air miles, if not more. Accept that paying a premium and non-disposable goods are inevitabilies of ethical consumption.
Don't be a cunt.
Reduce or stop consuming meat and palm oil oh and stop using plastic. The last one is the one I struggle the most... Plastic garbage bags, water bottels etc..
People wanna talk about recycling... But there is a reason it is the third R.
We should be more conscious of reducing and reusing more than we do.
Don't cheat on your SO. Ever.
Just piss in the shower instead of in the toilet before showering.
Don’t.... be.... a.... dick.
Stop caring about how other people have sex. It's none of your business unless they're doing it in public
Well quit telling me that I have to accept ‘how you are’. Just be who you are and quit thinking you have to justify it.
I agree with this. If you think you're a dude, just be a dude. Quit acting like vegans and announcing it to anyone who looks in your general direction lol
Lol exactly
If you eat dairy products— choose the brands that support local farmers. Currently in my area it’s $3.40ish for Big box store milk, and $3.70ish for the local dairy brand. $0.30 isn’t going to make that big of a difference to me, but keeping our local family farms going means a lot more.
If you smoke cigarettes, stop. Not only is it killing you slowly and painfully, the cigarette butts hurt the environment and animals in it when thrown on the ground.
Try to understand the people you disagree with. I just recently subscribed to the_donald. It's difficult to regularly see opinions I disagree with, and take the time to try and understand them. It's even more difficult to try and reason with people that seem unreasonable. But the only other option is to fall into that cycle of thinking that there's only two political groups, and if you're not with us you're with them.
Support local independent businesses.
!RedditSilver
Reduce your beef consumption. Cows produce a huge amount of methane which is a very potent green house gas. Rain forests are being destroyed primarily to make room for cattle grazing or for soy and corn to feed cows to feed humans.
The whole process is inefficient, inhumane, wasteful, and causes a lot of damage to the environment. Red meat is also bad for your health in many ways, especially at the rate people consume it in the U.S.
Walk outside and lift up the nearest manhole cover.
Also swamps. Gonna need to do away with those.
And the Bermuda Triangle.
Also Siberia.
Are you sure you're replying to the right comment?
Methane gas. Get educated and try to not downvote just because you’re butthurt.
I didn't downvote your comment, other people can see these comments too you know.
"Methane gas". Yep, I talked about cows and one of the problems with farming them is methane gas. Good on you for identifying other sources of methane, but it doesn't have a whole lot to do with my comment and I don't understand why you decided we need to get rid of swamps and sewage systems...(?)
Whenever possible get enough sleep. You'll be more patient with others and just generally nicer and happier.
Reproduce at a responsible rate or not at all.
I think one of the beiggest atrocities that is occuring the modern world and has existed throughout human history is the lack of critical thinking in our decisions. Is the dismissal and villification of people who disagree with us without giving them so much as the time of day to defend their opinions.
The world is chock full of opinionated people who are so sure that they're right that we have so many incorrect assumptions that are leading the way for how our society functions.
There's nothing wrong with being opinionated but we should constantly be challenging our own assertions and assuring that we're making them based on facts and logic and new information.
Don't circumcise your children...
Flush after you take a piss or shit. Please.
If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down.
Not sure if this will get me downvoted to oblivion but: Get as close to veganism as you can. My chief concern here is antibiotic resistances. Start with cutting back on chicken first. Where you can't do without animal products, see if you can buy organic since they will usually use less antibiotics. There is all the other well-known concerns about massive meat consumption, but the specter of the next pandemia is what really creeps me out.
Uh, I don't see this in the top 30 direct replies but can we all agree to not rape people? Thanks
Sign up to be an organ donor
Just don't be an asshole
dont eat meat often
Become an organ donor. You can save lives with it why would you need your organs when you’re dead
Consume less. Practice empathy.
Stop using emotion and knee-jerk reactions as the basis for new and sweeping legislation, and instead use logic and reason.
Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it’s illegal, nor does it mean you should simply reject reality.
Please don't downvote this again. But smokers, please, throw you cigarette butts in a bin or something but DON'T just throw them away on the ground. Whilst most parts of the cigarette will indeed degrade over something of a decade, the filters contain plastic compounds which in interaction with sunlight decompose into tiny particles polluting the ground, drinking water, ...
It's not that much to ask tbh. Any decent person should do this
lots of places here in UK sell or even give away “pocket ashtrays “. they are small foil lined wallets you can put your stub in safely. also many high streets have a butt tray on top of litter bins. so there’s really no excuse to drop butts in the ground
Eat less meat. Don't necessarily go vegan or vegetarian, but eating meat like every other day or something would make a difference.
In general, eat less meat or no meat at all.
Animals aren't really the best sustainable food source, so farming them is not the best. It takes a lot of land, water, and makes a lot of pollution (like cows produce a lot of greenhouse gasses)
Lets all leave a nicer, more sustainable world for the future generations to come.
Going plant-based
I'm not a vegetarian but.... We should all be vegetarians, ethically speaking. Either from the animal suffering angle, the health effects of meat, or the ecological cost of raising animals for food.
Vegetarianism (or at least Meatless Mondays, cmon folks!)
This is not going to be a popular choice, but we really should be vegetarians. Meat is horribly resource inefficient.
Becoming vegan/vegetarian, or at least reducing the amount of factory farmed meat we eat. I know this comment will make people irrationally angry, and people will respond with, "yummy chickens," or, "I love murder," or something like that, but that doesn't bother me. That's a coping mechanism to avoid cognitive dissonance.
Eating meat isn't wrong, it's the farming techniques, the conditions of the animals, and the environmental impact that are bad.
Giving up meat and other animal products is one of the best things you can do for the environment and animal welfare. Animal husbandry and the dairy industry contribute more greenhouse gases to the atmosphere than all of global travel.
Go vegan.
Stop consuming animals and animal byproducts. It is unnecessary in today's society in most areas of the world. If people had to see photos or watch a video every time they ate an animal or animal byproduct, you wouldn't want to. The top of the food chain is complete bullshit. It is inhumane what we do to animals for our own pleasure.
You don't NEED cheese. You don't NEED meat. You can get almost all of your nutrients from plants. I take 1 vitamin D pill every day and all of my blood work is completely normal.
One thing I always want to ask people who say this is what would you do with all the farm animals? They can't live in the wild for the most part so if everyone suddenly went vegan nearly all farm animals would probably be put down since no one is going to spend the money to feed or take care of them. You can't just turn them all loose. So in creating the vegan dream you would trigger the biggest slaughter of domestic animals in human history.
It would not be an overnight change. The meat industry has already seen a decline and we have seen no negative effects that you have brought up. There has been any incredible rise in vegan and vegetarian diets, so it would turn into a supply and demand equation. Less people would demand it and in turn the supply would also decrease. Less animals being bred for that reason would not equal more slaughter if the animals are not born in the first place.
Lol my soul is doing just fine.
but how when you don't feed it!
Vegan cinnamon rolls, my friend.
Don't eat meat.
Stop eating meat and animal products
Sort by best: no mention of vegetarianism/veganism.
Sort by controversial: ONLY mentions of vegetarianism/veganism.
It's like Reddit knows it's the right decision to make and is too afraid to confront it.
It's like Reddit knows it's the right decision to make and is too afraid to confront it.
They are. I was once the same way. I pondered the ethics of meat in my head. I did a lot of mental gymnastics to justify it such as it's natural or what about B-12. I finally took the plunge and I have no desire to go back.
Man, that's exactly where I am now. I'm struggling pretty hard with that. It almost feels like meat is an addiction.
Well it's never been easier with all the alternatives we have today.
My wife and I started by just doing a 2 week trial after watching "What The Health". It was easy to do 2 weeks because the thought of committing to never eating meat again felt over whelming. After the 2 weeks was up we both were like "that was easy lets keep going". So we did until we had to visit family. We both have cattle farmers on both sides of our family so we didn't want to get into the vegan debate. So we took a break from it. It was this break that made us both realize we were ready to commit. Never in my life have I been so ready to go back to a "diet". I had done keto, IIFYM, carb cycling, low carb, calorie counting, etc. diets before and every time I was counting the days until I hit my goal weight. And whenever I took a break from a diet for a trip or special occasion... it was usually the death of the diet. Not this time. I couldn't wait to get back on it.
1 thing I recommend doing is researching restaurants for vegan options in your area. So when you don't feel like cooking you don't resort back to ordering pizza. Have a convenient option ready to go. Chipotle is an easy one that is all over the US.
r/vegan has some great resources too
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You make good points. I eat a whole fuckton of meat but even I know the vegs are right, elitist or not.
I think that it is objectively unethical to farm and kill things, particularly when we can replace their entire nutritional worth pretty easily these days.
I think that it merits discussion; instead it's been shoved aside for easy (but important) talking points like plastics and not being an asshole.
Name one
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Although he does seem harsh and rude, I don’t think you want to say he thinks he is better than you. It seems as if he despises his existence, and wishes to create the less harm on this planet as possible. Since he thinks humans are parasitic, he probably views you the same way he views himself. Good try though!
Edit: never mind I see the comment. Yeah he/she is not helping further the conversation
It's about time we all start questioning eating meat. It is bad in every way: it is bad for our health, it's the biggest factor in environmental damage and deforestation, and for fuck's sake we kill 150,000,000,000 animals every year just for our taste buds. That's nearly double the amount of humans that have ever lived on Earth.
GO VEGAN
How about changing to lab grown meat?
When it is available, I will gladly support it and probably eat some too on occasion.
If you agree that lab-grown meat will be a welcome innovation because it promises to overcome myriad issues with eating dead animals, then stand behind your own position and abstain from eating animals until the point at which lab-grown meat is available to you.
Eat less meat (if you don't feel like stopping altogether) and when you do eat meat, find out where it's coming from and choose local and ethical sources. It's better for the environment and for your physical health. It amazes me what little people seem to care about what they put inside their bodies.
Eat less meat or just cut it out completely
Yea
Stop trophy/animal hunting.
Be vegan
We should choose reason over emotion. I can't tell you how much it pisses me off when someone thinks or acts irrationally based on feeling alone. Damn I'm a robot
Reason is, and should be, the slave of the passions.
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Literally 100% of it. It's called being human and none of it is immoral.
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Go vegan.
Go vegan
GO VEGAN
Not shopping on Amazon. Love or Hate Trump, they really are directly responsible for the decline in mom and pop shops and the loss of a "community" shopping center.
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This is true too.
Not to procreate. As far as cost-benefit is concerned, this is the single most "ethical" thing you could possibly do.
I'm putting "ethical" in quotes because people in this thread seem to define the term mostly as "environmentally friendly" or "sustainable", so that's how I'm using it as well.
Maybe second/third world countries where they bang/rape like bunnies without protection. North American/European countries could have a negative population growth very soon, which is not a good thing when there is an abundance of resources there.
Why do you think those countries have an abundance of resources?
I'll give you a hint: it's due to the same factors that lead to negative population growth.
If you think the population must always be growing, you're wrong. But even that (nonexistent) problem can be solved with more immigration.
I'm gonna guess you're not a fan of immigration.
There is nothing wrong with having children. The "overpopulation" problem is actually only a problem of resource management. We have more than enough land and food to support billions of people but we don't get them to the right people who are starving.
Also, I don't like that argument on the basis of my religious and moral values. I believe children are a blessing and not a commodity which should be limited and controlled. I have every right to have children if I ever get married and they will benefit society as they grow. Half of my siblings are doctors or are getting into medicine, they devote themselves to helping others. My future children will be raised with Christian values of respecting life and putting God above yourself, making them into people that will do their best to better themselves and society.
My comment had nothing to do with any (supposed) overpopulation problems, though. When I said that not procreating would be the most "ethical" thing to do (in the context of sustainability and environmental friendliness), I meant that, in terms of the ecological footprint, one of the worst things a human being can possibly do to the environment is to create another human being.
I believe children are a blessing and not a commodity which should be limited and controlled.
That's fair enough. I wasn't making an argument for a third party to control everyone else's procreative activities. I was making an ethical claim that if you define "ethical behavior" as "behavior that is beneficial to the environment", then one of the most ethical things you can do is to decide for yourself not to procreate.
I suppose you're right that more people will put some strain on the environment, I just believe that the environment will be able to sustain more people. I think that it is ethical to have more kids, and I would be enraged if someone tried to control my procreative abilities. I'm sorry that I may have misconstrued your words to mean that you support people taking away the right to have children and that having children is wrong.
Thank you for being civil, I don't usually see people engage me in a polite manner on reddit.
Besides your personal wants, why do you believe that?
Why do I believe having children is a good thing? Well, I believe we are made for love and in love. Now this doesn't mean we are meant for marital relationships (there are single people and religious life like the priesthood) but it means we are supposed to live in a loving relationship with our fellow man and God. By raising a child you are strengthening the marital bonds, you have to work constantly woth your spouse for the betterment of your child. You are no longer just an individual, but a parent and a spouse. You aren't the center of your universe anymore. You also are giving values to your child whoch will shape tgeir attitude and the way they think and act (though they are still autonomous individuals). By having children you are influencing the next generation and indirectly shaping the world's future. I believe Christian values are great and benenficial for the world and the individual and by teaching our children them we will make a better society devoted to service of God and man. Does that make any sense to you? Did i get the question right?
From what I understand it's mostly for religious reasons, and to strengthen the bonds of love and to leave a legacy. Would adoption fulfill the same desires?
Yes it would, there is nothing wrong with adoption. However we should also be open to biological children with the sexual act.
P.S. I also forgot to say the most important reason in that we believe people are sacred (everyone has a right to life and are made in the image of God) thus propagating is a good thing
Why are biological children better? Adopted are better because they need a home (doing them good) and it doesn't contribute to increasing burden on the earth (environmental).
Everyone has a right to life, of course, but do they have a right to creating new life, at the slight expense of the life already on the planet. Having a child worsens climate change and housing crises, etc. which worsen other, already living people's lives. Additionally, all the animal lives destroyed because of that one extra human life is immense. So really, valuing life would seem to point towards not having children.
I never said biological children are better, I just saod we should be open to biological children because of its relation to love and sex in marriage. Adopting children is a wonderful thing and it is something more people should do.
While having children definitely puts a heavier toll on the environment, I would say it wouldn't have an adverse effect so large that we should reduce our population numbers. Like I said before, we are having a resource management problem, not a population issue. We just need to better distribute our food and land to the people who need it most.
While I do love animals (I have two dogs and a cat who are just the sweetest things) they aren't as important as people. This isn't to say that the death of animal life isn't unfortunate, it just isn't the forefront of issues. Besides, I don't think there is going to be a huge decrease in animal life from human intervention. Recent scientific development like GMOS and lab grown meats (not ready yet, but soon) can drastically increase the output of food without drastically reducing animal life.
Well, sure, no reason not to be civil with each other.
Additional note: I believe as a Roman catholic that a marital relationship should be both unitive and procreative. We are not necessarily obligated to have children, but we should always be open to children. Never reject your gift of procreation in marriage.
Additional note: I believe as a Roman catholic that a marital relationship should be both unitive and procreative.
That's cool. You can live your own Roman Catholic life as you choose. Catholic it up.
We are not necessarily obligated to have children, but we should always be open to children.
...if you're a Roman Catholic. Maybe. It's not for everyone.
Never reject your gift of procreation in marriage.
I plan on rejecting the gift of procreation forever and ever. And that's ok, too.
I think a relativistic mindset is harmful in that it allows justification of any action despite the reality of our objective, absolute world.
For example, I can believe that there is no objective reality and say "there is no gravity" and jump off a cliff. My interpretation of reality does not supercede the objective reality and I fall to my death as a result. Now one might say that there is a difference from the spiritual and physical realities in that the physical is a bsolute but the spirit is not. However, there has to be an absolute moral law due to the simple fact that if everyone has their own code of conduct one law will contradict the other. Simply saying "there are no absolutes" is an absolute in of itself. "We should love people" "We should hate people" are two opposing philosophies that cannot exist within the same place. Throughout history in many different cultures of the world came laws with several similarities that appear to stem from the human spirit itself. Nearly every country has laws against murder for example. Also, what proof does one have in the first place that moral laws and religious beliefs are only opinionated ideals with no absolute place.
So, It is not "cool" to believe and do whatever you please, including rejecting the gift of procreation. I don't mean to be aggressive but I am tired of this mindset of there only being the self and how only what we personally believe matters. One of us is either right or wrong on this matter, it is not an opinion likepicking out your favorite flavor of ice cream which has no true objective basis.
EDIT: actually a better argument for an absolute spiritual and moral reality are certain religious beliefs. Hindus believe in reincarnation and atheists believe in a permanence of death. They cannot both exist simultaneously as one either reincarnates or dies permanently.
So, It is not "cool" to believe and do whatever you please, including rejecting the gift of procreation.
Well, I don't think it's cool to attend the churches of a bunch of proven child molesters and their enablers. I don't think it's cool to force one's religious beliefs on others, sometimes at the end of a sword.
I think you support a truly evil empire.
So, what do we do? Do we respect each differences? If not, who needs to change their whole life to fit the other's beliefs?
I don't think you really understand what the church is. It is absolutely in no shape or form an evil empire. It helps so much people with charity work and bringing the faith to enlighten people. How is that in any way evil?
There have been some priests who did horrible things like child molesting, but that is not a large problem and neither is it isolated to the church. Only a few priests have done that great evil, the majority (99.99%) are great, loving men who serve God with all their hearts. Saying that all of them are "evil" for a sin most don't commit is like saying all guys with tattoos are thieves because some guys with tattoos have stolen stuff before.
I never threatened anyone with death and I don't know anyone in the church who has so I have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe in the past a few people have used coercion to get the point across, and that is wrong. Forcing people to convert has never been endorsed by the Church, you have to be willing.
I wasn't even talking about "forcing" beliefs. I was just saying there are moral absolutes and the value of children and reproduction are among them. I would say rejecting it goes against the moral good,
However, It is true I would rather have a world of Catholics than a thousand diverse religions. Unfortunately, this is unlikely to change. There is absolutely nothing wrong in wishing people to understand and participate in truth.
Though you may hate me for being religious, have a great good friday and happy easter.
I don't think you really understand what the church is. It is absolutely in no shape or form an evil empire.
It's a metaphor, baby doll.
There have been some priests who did horrible things like child molesting, but that is not a large problem
Um, what? It's an enormous problem. By pretending otherwise, you become part of the problem
Saying that all of them are "evil" for a sin most don't commit
I didn't say every priest was evil. I said the church as an institution was.
Qualities belonging to the whole may not represent or be present in every part of that whole. This is a very, very basic truth.
I never threatened anyone with death and I don't know anyone in the church who has so I have no idea what you're talking about.
It's called the Crusades. Google it.
Forcing people to convert has never been endorsed by the Church, you have to be willing.
You're wrong. Look up the Crusades.
I wasn't even talking about "forcing" beliefs. I was just saying there are moral absolutes and the value of children and reproduction are among them.
There may be moral absolutes, but I doubt you or any other mortal being could ever be certain of them. I'm fairly certain that having children is not one of them, because there are far too many examples of situations where having children would be an immoral choice. Bit even I'm not sure because, hey, I'm not omniscient.
There is absolutely nothing wrong in wishing people to understand and participate in truth.
There is something wrong with thinking you and your fellow believers are the only ones with a hold on "the truth."
You have a childlike belief in your own ability to judge the difference between right and wrong, knowledge and belief, truth and falsity. Its unflattering. It's not a good look on anyone.
Though you may hate me for being religious
Back to childlike behavior.
I dont hate you or anyone else for being religious. I resent and pity you for being so close-minded and self-unaware. The Jesuits I know would be disgusted by your presentation of catholicism.
Ciao.
Blame the fucking Africans and Asians who are fucking like mad and then wonder why they have no food.
Maybe they don't have as much because Europeans destroyed their societies in the 1800's while we were prospering off of industrialization.
bwahahahaa
Also a lot of land in Africa is unfit for agriculture or any resource gathering. I'm all in for the developed western nations to make a joint effort in pushing the development of Africa's indistry, so that they can maintain themselves and achieve stable growth, provided that they have democratic, reasonable governments. But really they should stop fucking so much. Nigeria has what 100 million people?
Yeah of course. This is almost a complete 180 from your last comment.
Not really, the point is that their birth levels are way too high.
Ok. So you insult entire continents of people?
Yeah.
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If you are going to be responsible, and raise the kids in a loving home with a female mother and a male father
As opposed to a male mother and female father?
Or did you want to emphasize that you don't think the homos should be raising kids?
You know they're the only couples that can't possibly have an oops baby, right? And, seeing as they're much more likely to adopt, they're also better vetted, more stable, and more educated than the average parent?
Don't circumcise your kids.
Don't have kids.
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Why?
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Right. Ethnic war. Gotta outbreed the moosies and blacks.
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And what's the end goal? Let's say whitey wins and all humans are white. Then what?
I was going to say “stop eating meat” but then some bacon lover dickhead is going to try to find a clever way to justify the killing of animals for the sole purpose of appealing his tastebuds.
yes. yes I would.
And what is the supposedly clever way you'd find?
Go vegan and avoid single use plastics you fuckers.
Stop eating meat. Millions of animals are being held and killed in cruel conditions, and we do not need meat to survive and thrive as a species.
First, go Vegan or at least adopt a predominately plant based diet. This alone is something everyone should consider. At the very least have only one meal with meat everyday instead of 3. Factory farming is destroying the planet.
Also, take care of the environment, don’t litter, try and leave no trace, etc... try and limit how much plastic packaging you buy, that shit is awful, use paper bags or reusable bags whenever possible.
Edit: Seriously, why the fuck am I getting downvoted? It’s gotta be because I used the “V” word and triggered all the bacontards...
Who’s having three meat meals a day? My stomach hurts just thinking about it.
And when you eat meat try to buy as high quality possible.
I mean, at the very least... but ethically speaking, cutting meat out is the best option. There’s no such thing as humane murder last I checked.
Obviously I’m going to get downvoted again, because you can’t argue that meat isn’t ethical because bacon or something stupid...
True but it's also not possible to cut out all meat at once
Go vegan. Consuming animal corpses is unethical.
How so?
What is the difference between animals and humans that you think justifies needlessly killing animals but not needlessly killing humans?
Humans have souls, humans need food.
Stop working for equal outcomes.
Reduce or eliminate meat consumption.
stop eating meat - its the best thing you can do for the environment
Go vegan!
Get naloxone and carry it in case you run into someone that is overdosing. Get some for your friends that use drugs. Fentanyl is in all levels of the US drug supply (cocaine, opioids, pressed bars, amphetamines). Naloxone (aka Narcan) needs to be everywhere.
Can I add to this and say do some damn research before you start denouncing things like needle exchanges and safe injection sites? I know, they SEEM counterproductive. They're actually really helpful on several levels. Yes they are flawed, but if we let them work long enough to figure out the kinks, they will be less flawed, and they are the most effective method we currently have for combating addiction and all the nightmares that come with addiction.
You can add that! Thanks!
No, thank you!
Sounds like a good way to get sued.
Yeah you really can’t go around giving people things, overdosing or not. You can go to jail for “saving people’s lives”
No thanks.
Someone who uses drugs is no friend of mine.
Hell yeah, brother.
What irritates me is that you don't seem to be a troll and genuinely believe that.
Yeah, fuck me for liking people who have their act together.
It isn't so much about liking someone, and more about empathy.
OP had mentioned friends but it could easily be a close family member. Fetynal has also seen its way in alcohol and marijuana which aren't the type of drugs you normally shun someone for.
Also, most drug addiction in adults starts after being on pain medication so you are assuming that people out finding drugs have always been drug addicts.
You don't need to like someone in order to understand them.
So if someone uses drugs they don’t have their act together? Does that include alcohol?
There are definitely people that use drugs that also have their lives together. Paul Erdos is an easy example that comes to mind.
Also i hope you don't fuck with people that drink coffee or take medications since those are drugs.
Medications? What, I am with people who are 85 years old, maybe?
And coffee. No, no. Tea is much cheaper, and much better for you.
Plenty of young people have to take medications. Or have you never met someone with asthma, or diabetes?
Also no response to Paul Erdos? A famous mathematician who openly used stimulants.
And lmao homie tea has caffeine in it, which is a drug, the same one that's in coffee.
Much of tea is not caffeinated.
Paul Erdos could have cared cancer for all I care, "homie". I have a right to choose who I do and do not associate with. It sounds to me like you're some junkie trying to justify poor life choices.
So youre telling me you've never consumed caffeine? or ibuprofen, acetaminophen, or whatever over the counter drug I am almost positive you have used, or drank a beer? Not to mention you didn't address that plenty of people need drugs for genetic diseases like asthma or diabetes.
Sorry If my use of a colloquial term addressing you as a friend was too informal, i'll make sure to address you as the douche you are from now on.
Youre original justification was that you didn't want to associate with people that don't have their act together, but you literally just admitted youre just a biased piece of shit who doesn't care if someone has their life together to the extent they fucking cured cancer if they've done a drug you deem as immoral.
And I was hoping we could keep from getting personal. Anyway I do take a prescribed stimulant medication the majority of the days of my life. With it I'm about to finish a double stem major and hope to do some great shit. I wouldn't call myself a junkie, I'm pretty successful so far, in fact I nearly failed out of school before I was started taking medication. You can shit on me and call me a junkie as much as you'd like, fuck if you consider Paul Erdos a junkie it's a group I'm pretty okay with you lumping me in with.
And shit if you're really so much better than paul and other junkies who have advanced academic fields and made your life better, let alone better than myself, because you haven't used drugs, prove it. What has your (semi-)sober ass done to better the world?
Clearly you've never had a loved one spiral into addition..
Must be nice.
I have. Several. They are all bad people.
Addicts cause more harm to America than Cancer.
Only one I consider a human being. He has been clean for 15 years and has 4 kids. Everyone else is a junkie POS that has hurt literally thousands of people through their choices.
Drugs should be legal, and junkies should be punished for the crimes they committed being a junkie.
I wouldn't say that.
No, fuck you for having no understanding of peoples circumstances, how they got there, and why, rather than the immediate what. Youre just a shitty person, at least a drug user has an excuse.
Somebody using drugs = me having no understanding of their circumstances
Okay.
Nono, you misunderstand, a drug user can be rehabed, they are salvagable, you're not.
I'm glad you know me so well.
Vote locally!
If you go to a fast food restaurant, for God's sake leave the table cleaner than you found it.
Eat less meat, fish and dairy!
Try and hunt for or raise your own protein and grow your own vegetables.
Choose to not eat animals and their by products when it is not necessary for survival.
Ditch the straw! While you’re at it, try to reduce all single use plastics.
Don't fucking use Keurigs.
Treat animals with kindness. Especially those that are mostly dependent on humans after having been domesticated, and who wouldn't survive in the wild after we've taught them to expect us to feed them and such. Horses and cows might be ok in the spring or summer, but in the winter they'd die without us bringing them hay, etc.
Seriously, all dogs want is for us to love them. How anyone can possibly hurt an animal like that, blows my mind.
Stop watching porn, it creates demand for human trafficking.
Not all porn.
Have your own vegetable garden or at least try growing vegetables in cheap pots if at all possible. The average carrot travels 1500 miles from farm to plate, so even if it's advertised as organic and sustainable, the supply chain burned a lot of fossil fuels to get it to you. You can solve some of that by having your own garden and/or buying locally grown food when possible.
Go vegan
DNR, POA
Where can I buy these coins?
are you being coy
Extreme! so not DNR, but defiently POA
NO! DNR's for everyone!
I know DNR is do not resuscitate, but what is POA?
Power of Attorney. Let's someone take care of your legal issues, when you cannot.
Alright. That makes sense.
Have less kids. Depopulate the world please
Owning a firearm if you're a non-fellon mentally fit citizen. I believe it's a Civic duty.
Go vegan, save thousands of lives per year by doing that.
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Why is that ethical?
Perhaps even more ethical is to just not buy a gun in the first place.
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Because they are a weapon. Weapons can be a necessity sometimes, but hardly ethical.
Edit: Clarification
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This kinda makes me wonder if they make kids read Shane in grade school anymore. My guess would be "no".
Whats that
Shane is a book about a gunslinger who goes to work on a farm looking to leave his old life behind. There is a particular passage in the story that gun controllers would really disagree with...which is why I said the story is probably not being taught in school anymore.
Here is the movie scene of the passage I'm talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgW-gxJmKEM
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So many people in this thread are advocating vegetarianism, which is cool, but not a lot of people are talking about hunting. When the numbers are controlled properly, hunting is a really good way to get meat outside of industrial farming and help manage wildlife populations. The Duck Stamp program (using hunters' license fees to maintain wildlife refuges along main migratory routes) has been super successful.
I live in a small, rural town where pretty much everybody hunts. Kids get their hunting licenses as soon as they're old enough to. They spend a lot of time out in the woods with their parents learning how to use guns safely and effectively. Responsible gun ownership is a big part of life out here.
What I meant (and seem to be down voted to hell because of it) is that a weapon (gun in this case) is an item specifically created to kill things at a distance. Killing is sometimes a necessity. To protect yourself or to hunt for food. But the act itself is not generally considered "ethical". The broader social framework might be though. But the "at a distance" thing adds another element. There are other ways to kill that require you to be closer to the target. And if in that situation you choose not to, then killing at a distance where you are unable to make the same judgement is definitely unethical (in that particular situation).
A knife is a tool for cooking, and not relevant to my point.
Fuck dude I didn’t know the hammer in my garage was unethical, let me go turn it in.
That's a tool you idiot.
Well according to you weapons can be a necessity, so I guess my hammer should just be taken since it can hurt people.
With the disclaimer that I don't in general agree with /u/nedjeffery that buying guns is unethical, your response doesn't make any sense in the context of the argument they are making. The hammer can kill someone- it isn't designed to kill with a primary purpose of killing. They aren't comparable under the argument he has made.
Close. I don't actually think it's unethical to buy a gun or own a gun. Just that killing is inherently an unethical thing. Even if in some circumstances it's the best option.
Thanks for sticking up for me amongst a sea of jerks knees.
That made no sense.
Have someone bash in your head with a hammer. Calling a hammer with a weapon should make sense then
You are completely missing the point. I could bash your head in with a rock. That doesn't mean a rock was designed to bash heads. I'm NOT anti-gun. I'm saying that a machine designed to kill things is not an ethical thing. Not everything has to be ethical to be useful or have benefits.
Nothing is inherently designed to do anything.
That's not true. Any thing has many potential uses and consequences. Intended and unintended. But things are better at doing some things than other things. Therefore they do have purpose. Sometimes vague, sometimes narrow. I would argue that a gun has a particularly narrow purpose. That is killing things. Killing things can be directed towards a noble purpose, or an evil purpose. But that doesn't make the act of killing "ethical". It just means that the act can take place within a cultural framework that considers the outcome ethical. I know it may seem like a distinction without a difference, but there is a difference. And that becomes apparent when the same outcome can be achieved via a different act.
Can you use a hammer to bash in the heads of 500(ish) people attending a concert in Vegas from a couple hundred yards away? No.
he could have used one of his planes to kill far more than 69 people
This is the problem with the liberal media. They make sweeping statements implications like "People who own guns are bad people."
Says who? 99.9% of people who own a gun use it for recreational shooting or they just store it in a locker.
there is nothing unethical about owning a gun
Yeah, because it makes sense to boycott a sporting goods store that is still selling guns because they decided they won't sell a few types of guns that aren't terribly useful for actual sports hunting makes so much sense. Apparently, any attempt at even the tiniest direction that might remotely reduce how many guns people have or the types of guns should be met with a boycott.
I lived in Maine for a while, and in Maine people a lot of people, even pretty left-wing people had guns. That was because of bears; if a bear decided to go after you, your pets, or your livestock, a gun was a good response. A gun was a useful tool. But none of those people had an AR-15 or any other high velocity, semi-automatic, because they weren't needed.
When I moved to Alabama, I was intrigued to see how not only were guns even more common, in large quantities, but that rather than see guns as tools, people had guns just because guns. Essentially, they were badges of honor with [all that entailed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_honor_(Southern_United_States)). Posts like yours show the exact same cultural problem - a culture so obsessed with guns that a store deciding to simply not sell a few of the more dangerous ones demands an economic response.
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What are you basing that on?
Talking to people who actually hunted. For most purposes, general consensus was that bolt action weapons were fine, and moreover, that if one was hunting in an area where there might be people (or in some parts of Maine hunting in an area where there would be tourists who should have been wearing bright colors and weren't), stray shots were substantially less likely a problem with bolt action weapons.
I'm skeptical about bear attacks being the primary reason people of different demographics own guns in Maine. Don't get me wrong though, I would love to read that study.
I don't have any studies in this context, but at an anecdotal level, this was a pretty serious concern in some locations. Bears are a big issue in general in Maine, to the point that the university where I worked had a "what to do if there's a bear on campus" policy and it sometimes was used.
Apparently, any attempt at even the tiniest direction that might remotely reduce how many guns people have or the types of guns should be met with a boycott.
This is an overstatement that doesn't do justice to the nuance and complexity of the firearms debate, nor does it account for the basis of the decision.
Yes, the firearms debate is nuanced and has complexities. And that's precisely why this sort of response to Dick's decision makes no sense. It is precisely this sort of knee-jerk, boycott the people who do a tiny thing I disagree with that's a problem. If you want to expand on why Dick's policy is one that you disagree with so much that it justifies you advocating a boycott in the context, then by all means do so.
A gun was a useful tool. But none of those people had an AR-15 or any other high velocity, semi-automatic, because they weren't needed.
This is just wrong. No one in Maine owns an AR-15?
Probably not literally no one, but they certainly weren't nearly as common as when I lived in Alabama.
When I moved to Alabama, I was intrigued to see how not only were guns even more common, in large quantities, but that rather than see guns as tools, people had guns just because guns.
Yup. That's a thing with constitutional rights. I converted to Islam almost four years ago, and I carry a prayer rug with me when I'm out and about so I can stop and pray wherever I am. Sure, I could go to a mosque and do it, but the constitution says I can pray in the park, so why not?
When an interesting petition comes up, I sometimes sign it, even if it doesn't affect me. Why? Because I'm allowed to express myself constructively.
So yes, Constitutional right just because.
That's a really bad comparison. The analogy would be if you also went out of your way to sign petitions that don't personally impact you, and you don't care about, or that you just show up to protests for random causes no matter how silly because you enjoy your right to peacably assemble. In any event, people weren't keeping 5 or 6 guns or more in a house as some sort of celebration of the 2nd Amendment- the direction was very much not that. They clearly considered having guns important independent of anything related to the Constitution- see my earlier remark about Southern honor culture (which honestly was something I had heard of before but didn't really take seriously as a thing until I saw it first hand).
What about my post is problematic? Wouldn't your response be problematic because it's filled with factual errors and biases, as well as unfounded assumptions?
If there's a bias or factual error then that would be a problem. There isn't.
A rifle with a pistol grip chambered in 7.62 isn't "more dangerous than one that is identical except for the pistol grip. Apart from close range, a bayonet lug isn't going to do you any good. Muzzle breaks are useful for stabilization, but that wouldn't make much difference at close range, which is how most shootings occur. There have been some snipers, but very few. The Parkland shooter had ten-round magazines, which are considered non-large capacity, but he still killed 17 people. If we were talking about automatic weapons, which are actually assault rifles, then yes, a 50 or 100 round drum would be devastating. You'd be able to lay down a hail of suppressive fire that would tear through large swaths of people. That said, new (post ~86?) machine guns are illegal, and the legal ones are around $15k starting. Not much of a threat.
It probably surprises you, but I'm in complete agreement with this analysis. More dangerous doesn't mean substantially more dangerous. Being frank, I think that most of the focus on weapons like the AR-15 is silly- it isn't going to have a substantial impact on gun death rates in the US. It will impact probably how common school shootings, but those aren't a major cause of gun deaths. But the fact that much of the left (and certainly much of the left outside states like Maine) don't get that, doesn't make caring enough about Dick's decision to advocate a boycott a rational behavior either. The US has a seriously messed up attitude towards guns: we have a right that fetishizes them, and a left that doesn't understand them as it tries to regulate them. We do have one of the highest fire-arm death rates of any developed nation, and when you look at how it breaks down by state the patterns are pretty clear especially when you look at it compared to firearms owned per a capita, and some serious cultural issues.
I guarantee many of those people in Maine hunted with a semi auto that fired rounds at a much higher velocity than a .223
Not most of them, in my experience. I grew up hunting in Maine and almost everyone used bolt action. It was pretty common to make fun of people who felt like they needed semi auto for it, it's really excessive, but you'd see a few people who just had a fuck ton of crazy guns and would claim they were for hunting. Of course, this is all just personal anecdote.
The people who hunted generally hunted with bolt-action rifles. Winchester 70 seemed very popular. In general, most people who hunted had some form of bolt-action weapon. I agree that among those who did hunt, semi-autos were sometimes a thing.
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That's shopping, it's not an ethical choice. Shop where you like, but you aren't making that choice from an ethical standpoint
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ok...fair enough. Just misplaced ethics then.
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way to move the goalposts so far they are no longer visible.
We're talking shopping, or not shopping at Dick's sporting goods
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More of our liberal friends NEED to understand the left can be pro-gun.
Fuck, this article elegantly explains how gun rights are a left point from the start. http://www.thepolemicist.net/2013/01/the-rifle-on-wall-left-argument-for-gun.html
Shit is hardly ever that black and white man.
There are plenty of liberal gun owners jackass.
I’ve never met a healthy animal that wanted to be slaughtered, so maybe stop eating them.
Having fewer (0 would be ideal) children.
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I think that human consciousness is composed largely of suffering and only moderately redeemed by the little pleasures we are fortunate enough to experience.
If we agree human consciousness /at this point in time/ is closer to a curse than a gift (a gift can be refused with no harm done, a curse overrides consent intentionally), it seems unethical to create a consciousness which is doomed to suffer without the consent of the unborn.
Also, it's bad for the environment and we have plenty of children already existing in a state of desperate need.
I think if people want children, the ethical move is adoption.
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What's a matter of opinion?
I also like my life, but only if it's measured against other human lives. I want for nothing. Still, compared to having never been born, my life is some sort of circus of tortures.
The suicide argument isn't a good faith argument, anyway-- certainly if I say the car we are riding is is shitty, you don't ask me to prove it by jumping out of the vehicle. Granted, if the suffering inside rises to a high enough level (the car catches fire, say), jumping out makes more sense. Don't assume a life has been good just because the suffering hasn't risen to the point of suicide yet.
The unborn suffer not at all, and forcing them into existence without consent must be some sort of violation. You may feel there is some greater good which justifies it, but we disagree.
And especially in the face of the fact that massive human population growth (not life, human life) has everything to do with the ruin of Earth's environment over the last couple centuries.
Why not adopt?
So um. You want humanity to die off? We kinda need to breed to keep the species going
Unfortunately evolution attached children to the sex drive, so there is approximately 0% chance we reach that ideal.
I'm a pragmatist.
But yes, humanity dying off wouldn't perturb me at all. I'd be dead. The cosmos are on the clock anyway-- it's all a matter of time.
I guess... username relevant?
Either way, you should find a better way to use your time. That way, I'll have no reason to sort AskReddit threads by controversial.
I am enthusiastic about disorder generally, yes.
Thanks for your opinion on my use of time. I think most people could do better in this arena, myself included.
Not eating animals. The only difference between Christmas and that dog eating festival that everyone cries about each year, is social norms. Yes you can eat them, yes they are tasty, but no it's not really ethical.
People tend to get really butthurt about this but I'd wager they'd be more butthurt if I smashed a dog's head in with a hammer in front of them. I could argue the dog didn't feel pain due to my method, I could argue that the dog is tasty or that dogs have been domesticated for the benefit of mankind therefore it is their destiny and if we didn't use them to serve man like this they wouldn't exist.... I could argue that we have canine teeth precisely to eat meat such as dogs. At the end of the day though 9/10 people or more would be incredibly butthurt about me killing and eating a dog, while perfectly happy to kill and eat other animals.
I've met so many people who eat meat almost every meal, but balk at eating fish that's served whole or chicken breast served on the bone, and would be totally unable to kill an animal themselves. I at least have a modicum of respect for people who come out and say they don't give a fuck about animals, but most people whine that they loveeee animals so much and eating them is about respect or some other shit they pull out of their ass to justify something they actually feel deeply uncomfortable about.
Also hilarious when every single person you talk to claims they only eat free range meat, which is clearly a lie that only they believe, because look at the fucking statistics for a start and also every single person I've known claim this conveniently forgets to ask about where the meat comes from when they go out to eat or buy ready meals, etc.
Also ps I only eat free range dogs.
I'll try dog meat.
Then I like you more.
I'm from South Louisiana. The only things I won't try is dick and nutella.....combined or seperate.
Going vegan, or as vegan as possible e.g. vegetarian or reduce meat and dairy.
Eat far less animal products
Go vegan.
Not having kids
Yes
Lol both comment and reply got down voted.
Sorry guys it's the truth, the absolute best thing you can do for the environment is to stop making more people. No one is special enough that there needs to be 5 more of them running around the world. I don't care if it's your life dream to have a big family, it's selfish not only to everyone living on this planet but also to the kids you have
Do not even begin to bring up that bullshit about kids being "blessed" and "happy" they get a chance to live. Fuck no. If they had a choice, they would definitely choose not to be ejaculated out of a penis. Fuck outta here.
Is it more people that is the problem or is our lifestyle the problem?
Without a doubt its more people. Our planet is way past its carrying capacity
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The world is grossly overpopulated and it is irresponsible to continue to have kids knowing how much that increases your carbon footprint. Doing things like going vegetarian, walking/biking, and recycling all help, but not as much as simply not having kids or one child families.
Also, think about what kind of world you'd be leaving them to deal with just because you wanted a picture-perfect nuclear family. How is that not selfish?
If your username is a description of your current hair color, I'd say I agree, you should not have kids.
Vote for the party that will make wholesale change in your country. No individual action has as much power.
Consume products with no palm oil.
Respecting other people's opinions even if you don't agree with them.
Mr. Rogers told kids whenever there was a tragedy to "focus on the helpers".
We should all try to be a helper in some way. Donate blood, volunteer, do a charity fun run, etc.
Don't park in the fucking handicap space if you aren't authorized you lazy piece of shit.
Stop eating while doing other things and snacking outside of meals.
I made this change myself and have gone from ~320lbs to 195lbs in a little over a year and a half, without making any other major changes to my lifestyle.
/r/loseit was an amazing subreddit for me to come across.
If possible, don't use chemicals to clean your home. For the most part I use a mixture of white vinegar, distilled water, lemon juice, and a couple drops of essential oil. I use it to clean pretty much everything and it's 100% safe to use on food surfaces and around pets. It does take more elbow grease to clean things but my house always smells great and we haven't been getting sick as much and we've saved money. Plus plastic bottles get permeated with the chemicals they contain and it's bad for the environment when you recycle them, or something like that.
Reusable dishes and cups. I switched to using only my mugs or washable travel cups, and when I eat at my school I always go for the dishes that can be washed, not tossed out.
Also, only grabbing food we won't waste.
Over the next 3 years, you are going to notice a huge amount of all electric vehicles hitting the market.
Not even talking about Tesla. Hyundai has one coming out that will be sub-30k. Chevy has a couple great options. And at the recent auto shows, all major companies are showing off their all electric vehicles that they plan to put out within the next 2 to 3 years.
They will be affordable. They will be viable. And you should all choose to buy them as your next new car.
Except electric vehicles only really make sense if your electricity comes from a renewable source. If your burning coal, oil or natural gas to make the electricity you’re not actually helping the environment at all and the batteries in your “green” vehicle cause massive amounts of pollution to create and then dispose of when they are expended.
First do research of how your electricity is produced, because there are a lot of rare metals and very polluting substances used to make an electric car so it only makes sense to get one if the energy you're putting into it is renewable. Otherwise you're just padding your ego and pushing the problem off on someone else.
Reusable k-cups, so much less waste!
or Just Say No to K-cups
If you have a lawn... think about planting perennial food sources rather than grass, and stop using pesticides/herbicides, leave the leaves/grass clippings down where they fall (but chop them up with the lawnmower going over them). If you still want just flat green, think about planting clover (a nitrogen fixer that helps soil), leave the dandelions, etc. I'm slowly turning my yard into an edible landscape because I saw what years and years of lawn and chemicals had done to the land--couldn't hold water, badly eroded, plants couldn't survive without chemical fertilizer, all sand, no insects/worms.
I'm on year 4 now and only bring in compost from my town compost facility (free), I keep ducks and use their poop as fertilizer (and they control the pests/weeds on top of laying beautiful eggs), mulch the beds to suppress weeds, and SO MANY WORMS now, everywhere. I get bees and butterflies too. A bonus is from spring until late fall, I don't go to the supermarket for anything other than red meat/chicken, so I cut down on gas and food costs.
The health of our world can literally begin in your own backyard, and the best part is that it can look beautiful too! I have two cherry trees right outside my window and I can't wait for them to bloom this spring!
Don't pee in the pool.
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The problem with this is that there are groups specifically aiming to outbreed everyone else, like the Quiverfulls.
Use religion to help you through your hard times and celebrate your good times but stop using it to try to convert other people change other people make other people not be gay etc.
Build lasting things.
Rethink having children. It's probably about one of the worst things you could do to the environment. Not only are you generating another human that will consume a lifetime of natural resources and generate pollution, but you are also quite possibly generating an entire, exponentially expanding tree of human beings. Also, there are so many kids that need adopted. If you don't want to have kids, you don't have to.
Have fewer children.
Recycle, re-use, get a smaller car, go vegetarian, buy locally, use public transit, go solar, vote green — all of those are nice, but all that combined doesn't hold a candle to having just one fewer child.
Forgive others.
Love your enemies.
For fucks sake stop leaving trash everywhere
Not having kids, and if you do, not breeding over replacement rate.
A complete and total assesment of our values. What we REALLY and honestly want from our lives, as well as what we do not want from our lives. (the latter, needing to be something we know we will be or do, if we do not consciously stop ourselves. E.g. i can be a lazy piece of shit and shut down in social situations. This can lead me to not have any friends or people to communicate with. Then lack the motivation or drive to do anything to change my misery from having no friends. Creating a positive feedback loop that will continue to compound my misery until something breaks.)
Having greater clarity in our day to day lives about whats going on can help us take the next step. Not tainting our vision with whimsical desire of what we want to be in the future or by being overly negative about our pasts. Look at the person you are today. Doing our best to see our current lives as they are, unfiltered by bias and opinion. Then strive for bettering ourselves and encouring of the betterment of those in our immediate contact and in our sphere of influence.
I have decided to live by the simple philosophy - "Don't be a Dick." This applies to my exchanges with people - both friends and strangers, so I try to be polite to everybody, even when I want to punch them in the face...which is usually not because of something they have done to me, in any case.
And it applies to honesty - only a "dick" steals things that don't belong to him, whether money, or property.
Try to avoid disposable stuff whenever an alternative is possible
It's very small and I think very good for the environment: if you're ordering food to work/home, where you have utensils you can use - ask the restaurant NOT to give you dispoable utensils. Just put it in the comments ahere you'd normally ask them to pack the sauce separately, and I'm sure the earth would be much better for it with very minimal effort.
Embrace your insecurities, your mistakes and try to find more humour in your life. This will make you a more enjoyable person to be around.
Personally speaking, friends make light-hearted jabs at my receding hairline, I'm learning to joke and embrace my inner Stone Cold Steve Austin.
Be your own comedian! :)
Humans are one of the driving forces behind mass extinction and overpopulation. Consider an ethical noose.
The world is overpopulated. Don't have more than 2 children. They will not fill that void in your heart, and they will one day grow up to be consumers.
Do the right thing even if nobody is watching. This is one definition of "integrity".
If you can't afford them, don't have kids until you can.
We need to start voting for people who actually represent us rather than simply by the party they are in, or the name recognition they have.
Don't let your negative feelings about yourself cause you to be negative towards others. I know that's one I've only recently identified and started trying to change.
Calling out people for victim blaming in cases of sexual assault/harassment
Don’t throw your trash out your window while driving! Every public place has a garbage can by the door, and you have a garbage can in your house too. Even if you don’t recycle, it’s better in a garbage bag than on the side of the road.
Don't leave your shopping cart in the middle of the fucking parking lot.
Be kind on the road. If you're in traffic, give a wide berth and let people in. It helps break up traffic.
Also, aim to drive at as consistent of a speed as possible. Give yourself room to do this. It's both more comfortable and better for traffic.
Don't masterbate too much
Hands off this topic , baby
I'm not saying stop completely. All I'm saying is, it's hard to get anything done when your hand is full of penis.
When your hands are wet and you get a paper towel to dry them, dry your hands and then use that paper towel to dry off the handle on the paper towel dispenser so the next guy doesn't have to touch your hand water with his clean hands.
Not have children.
Let's face it, the planet is fucked. We may not have moral authority over the lives of animals, but we do have the power to intwntionally not have kids, and put them into a world ravaged by a multitude of extinction-size problems
Eat less meat. I'm not a veg/vegan, but I understand the environmental impact and ethical issues with the current meat industry and know it would be better to not eat meat at all.
Dont buy shitty cheap eggs and meat. eat smaller portion and buy better quality products.
being fucking KIND to one another.
Eat less meat.
Lower your carbon footprint by drinking whiskey instead of cheap beer
Use less plastic, eat less meat, donate blood if you can, donate your organs when you die if you can, don't buy a new car unless you have to, donate any unneeded surplus of income to charity or research (Especially underfunded charities and research).
Do not litter anywhere at all, ever. I've grown up in a place where littering is generally frowned upon. I moved to the US and I am always sad how much litter there is.
I always find a trash can and if there isn't one, I take my trash with me until I find one. It's not hard at all.
Eat less meat. Buy local.
Put things back where they go in the grocery store.
(I could be biased though I work in a grocery store)
Stop killing your own kids
Stop using the word “should”
Whether you should have children. Do you believe we as a species are overpopulating? Do you think issues such as global warming will leave a world that your child can enjoy throughout their lives? Will things like automation leave them in a hopeless future? I think everyone should consider the future life of the child, not just raising him/her. The child's life continues after you're long dead.
I'm guilty of this too, but I'd really love if it was more socially acceptable to call people out on their bullshit. Like, to their face, as the bullshit is flying. Not ten minutes into the racist berating of someone on the subway. Live more ethically by not being afraid to speak up for strangers.
eat less meat. you don't even have to give it up, just eat a little bit less.
Not buy anything that is “organic”. It’s unsustainable, expensive and absolute bullshit.
Fucking exercise and dont smoke cigarettes...
Spay and neuter your pets, people.
Put solar panels on your home. Get an electric car for your next car.
Why do some smokers think that cigarettes aren't trash and are therefore okay to toss on the ground?
Find a successful older mentor outside of family. Ask a lot of questions and practice the art of listening. You’d be surprised how willing people can be when you just ask for guidance in your life. Be proactive and diligent with everything and within a few months you’ve developed some Golden habits that will help you on your path tremendously.
Adopting from a shelter if you're considering getting a pet of any kind. There's so many poor pals without good buddies out there.
To not have biological children and instead consider adoption.
My thinking is this: why bring another child into an overpopulated world when I can give all my love and attentionto someone who not only needs it, but is less likely to not take it for granted.
Birth control. Keep asking me for money to feed the starving children all around the world and I'm gonna answer, "Not until you spay and neuter."
Don't have children until you've finished college and can afford to give them head start in life. Poverty is, in many cases, pathological.
Internalize and live by the Golden rule--like all the way. When you are having an interaction with someone, think "how would I feel if someone was treating me the way I am treating this person?"
If the answer isn't "neutral to positive" rethink your interactions.
Smokers, please stop throwing your butts on the ground.
where should I put it if there's no bin within 50m?
Put it in your pocket. My grandfather was a heavy smoker and he had the foresight to keep a zip lock bag in his pocket to hold his butts until he was near a trash can.
Putting the shopping cart back in it's proper spot in the parking lot instead of just leaving it in a parking space
In no particular order:
Zipper merging in traffic 🙄🙄🙄
Plug all of your electric appliances into power strips, and unplug those power strips when you leave your place or they are not in use to conserve energy.
Also we gotta use less plastic.
Considering whether or not you should actually have children (via your own reproductive capacities or otherwise)
Don’t have kids. Birth is the number one cause of human suffering.
Seriously, one of the kindest things you can change in your daily life that is compassionate towards the planet, animals, and yourself is moving towards reducing/cutting out meat and dairy. It’s so sad to see the few posts that have said this already have to add an obligatory “sorry to be that guy”- this post is literally asking for advice on how to be more ethical and this is a brilliant way to do so. Livestock farming takes a huge toll on the environment, the industry is often cruel and brutal (sometimes hideously so), and there are many many health benefits to moving towards a plant based diet. Bonus is that it really does bring happiness to know you’re consciously choosing to be kind each day in a way that does have an impact, and contributes to a movement that saves lives. It’s worth watching Earthlings. If you’re wanting to live a more ethical life this documentary is very sobering
Realizing that all dehumanizing of general groups or classes of people has the exact same basis as racism - to make less of others, so as to retain unearned privilege for oneself.
Eat as plant-based as you can. If you can't go vegetarian/vegan, eat food with inverse-proportional frequency to the energy needed to produce it. Treat meat like the delicacy that it is, enjoy the hell out of it, but respect how much sheer work and often suffering, by nature, and humans went into its production.
Eat less meat. Don't worry about being a vegetarian. Don't worry about what other people think. Just cut back to eating meat every other day.
Buy only recycled paper products. Stop buying toilet paper with less than 75% recycled content.
Avoid using paper towels at all costs. Use dish rags.
Don't buy anything that contains palm oil.
Stop eating so much shrimp.
Just use the phone that you already have. It still works. New features are just shiny, shiny wears off.
Not having children.
The small decisions to avoid plastic in products when ever possible.
Don't have kids. Go vegan.
Eat less meat.
Stop having kids
Wear condoms. Don't just get abortions willy-nilly.
Don't be a dick, unless responding to a situation created by a giant dick. Which likely requires a great level of dickishness to resolve.
Just be a goddamn decent person. Don't try to fuck people over at your job. Don't seek money or power or fame or sex. Don't party. Do your damn homework. Pay your taxes ffs and don't cheat on them. Don't cheat on your spouse. Don't lie to people. Don't do a thing that's wrong just because nobody will find out you did it. Clean up after yourself. Listen to people when they talk to you. Don't size people up or compare them to each other to see who is a better person. Don't socialize with someone because they can do you a favor later. Don't look down on people who serve you in some capacity or do menial labor. Don't judge yourself to be better than someone else because they are in a bad situation. And honestly - this is usually the hardest one for people - once you've learned how to be a decent person don't go around harshly judging criminals or other people who haven't figured out how to be decent. Say this: "if not for the grace of God, there go I". Most people get their fair share of lucky breaks in life. Don't attribute that luck to yourself because you're a "better sort of person"
We all need to be more mindful. Put the phone down when you're being social (in person). Keep a grouchy mood to yourself. Solve our own problems. Stay aware of why we are getting certain privilege, and pass it on to others if possible. Look around for the end of the line. Put our shopping carts back (I'm looking at your Florida!). Be kind to others, and don't take it personally if they aren't kind back. I think it's critical to be mindful and deliberate with our actions.
Don’t go to zoos, aquariums, sea world.
Do. Not. Drink. And. Drive.
Try to give others the benefit of the doubt when evaluating their actions or statements.
We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by our actions. We should all take a minute to remember that every day.
If you can't take care of yourself, don't have children. Of course, people who don't take care of themselves, won't care about this either.
To always consider that your opinions and experiences may be wrong and to consider that other's may be right.
Following the golden rule, “Do not do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” and conversely “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
"Help your friends, harm your enemies."
Be humble.
Remember that in an instant everything can change. For better or for worse.
Pay attention to your carbon footprint! FFS!
Try to go zero waste or at least reduce our trash output. I think theres a lot of alternatives to disposable products that people don’t think about and in the long run it’ll help keep the world from being covered in mountains of plastic.
Giving me gold.
Tip 20% or more always unless the server literally told you to go fuck yourself to your face. 20%.
Easy math, move the decimal place once left, then multiply by 2.
Even if it takes a while to get your food, that's not on the waiter, that's om the cook. Most issues that make people give worse tips have absolutely nothing to do with the server.
Use your blinker and drive responsibly!
Reduce the amount of meat you eat.
Based solely on environmental reasons.
If you're walking at the park and you see trash, pick it up
Treat woman as an equal
Be willing to talk to people in person who have different view then you and know that they may not ever change their minds about it.
just because you have an opinion, doesn't mean you need to share it.
social media amplified everyone's voice while taking away most of the accountability. this works both ways -- you opinion is mostly meaningless, and the same goes for opinions you disagree with.
After a long conversation with a vegetarian (friend of a friend) on nye I have made the decision to eat meat free one day a week. Apparently if we all did this it would fix the issue of sustainability with meat foods worldwide
The weirdest thing about this thread is that none of the top comments are about what you eat.
Go veggie once, twice a week. The difference it would make if we all did this would be incalculable over a decade.
Paper or plastic?
If you see a homeless person, stop and say hi. Acknowledge them. Show that you care, that they are also human beings who deserve the same respect. It only takes 5 minutes out of your day but it makes their entire day. It's crazy how many people will just walk by and hand them food or money, but don't even acknowledge them. I've done it before and sometimes I go by the same person like a few times a week, and honestly it makes their day.
Only consume what you need and re-fucking-cycle.
This mainly goes out to Chinese rich people who don't give a f*ck about anything. By a distance the worst group of people ever. Yes also worse than them...
Try to reduce consumption of meat products, especially from huge mass-production companies like Tyson. The production of meat uses MASSIVE amounts of water and energy, and the conditions the animals are housed in are deplorable.
If you're dead set on eating meat, and you have the resources to do so, I would recommend buying from local farms or at least looking for "free-range" products. Ideally though, I think we need to start moving towards a more sustainable plant-based diet.
For someone so passionate about this you sure don't provide any evidence for your claims. How much water is used in meat production? More than any other industry? Why water usage bad? You know it's renewable right?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2212371713000024
"Animal products have a particularly large water requirement per unit of nutritional energy compared to food of plant origin."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_meat_production
"Data of a USDA study indicate that about 0.9 percent of energy use in the United States is accounted for by raising food-producing livestock and poultry."
http://blog.nomadpress.net/blog/isnt-water-renewable-so-why-conserve/
This last link is a good read for your point about water, it's true that it is technically a "renewable" resource, however the water cycle cannot keep up with the rate at which humans consume and pollute sources of water. "Why bother conserving water?" Is an incredibly irresponsible question to ask. If we continue to treat the earth and the resources on it as disposable then we're not going to last long.
That's sketchy science at best.
Go on. Support your statement.
The best investment one can do is in himself. Body and mind, cook your own food, it is cheaper and better, drink tap water, use a filter if necessary, don't buy bottled drinks, ban sugar. do a 30 minutes exercise everyday, swim, run, or at least 50 pushups and plank. Read. there are 1000s of free kindle books at Amazon that can be read on a computer. Play chess.
Sign up for organ donation. Might make someone else's life easier...
Do not get kids to justify your existence! It probably won't work and will be an unpleasant experience for them too...
Please don't cut me oFF IN TORRENTIAL RAIN DURING A YELLOW LIGHT THEN SLAM THE FUCKING BRAKES WHO THE FUCK TAUGHT YOU HOW TO DRIVE YOU TWAT
Grow food rather than grass in the yard. Or in addition to grass, whatever. Lawn is the #1 crop in the US by resource consumption, and there's something very wrong about that.
Use a corded mouse instead of buying batteries.
I've gotten tired of spending so much money on AA batteries for my gaming controllers, so I went and got wired ones. Less money and less waste.
You can buy USB extenders for about $2 on eBay, too.....if you want to sit on your pouffe and frag from 5 meters away.
I use rechargeables. Used the same battery for five years in my mouse.
We don't have rechargeables in Eastern Europe so that's not an option.
Almost everything needs to still be plugged in.
No fast fashion
Not humouring people in Reddit threads who think treating people like shit is alright because “meirl introverted fuck off”
This might sound too simple, but just listen to your guilt. Often times if you feel guilty for something, you might've done or might currently be doing something shitty. If you address whatever is making you feel this way, you're probably going to feel better and you'll probably be a better person for it.
PUT YOUR GROCERY CARTS IN THE DESIGNATED STALLS IN THE PARKING LOT. Seriously. People have to retrieve those in super hot & cold temperatures.
Stop lying and making excuses. It may be tough but makes a life a lot easier. Even if it makes people upset they'll respect you more for being honest. Especially at a job.
stop using straws
waste less. in food, energy, and all forms of resources.
donate blood if you can
be less materialistic, especially for us americans.
do you need that 30$ shirt?
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even if someone is profiting off of your blood, it still goes to help someone who needs it.
Thanks for reminding me to donate plasma. I got dat AB+
Stop voting for bought and paid for politicians.
If you live in a country that servers/waitstaff count on tips as part of their salary, please tip your servers or don't go out to eat.
It really chaps my ass when someone openly says they don't "believe" in tipping. I didn't realize common courtesy was a belief system.
Being vegan. Yup, I said it. It’s way more sustainable for the environment, can be healthier than an omnivorous diet and reduces suffering of the voiceless. Most non-vegans don’t take the step and show baffling cognitive dissonance when trying to justify their view.
Stop. Stop telling us how to live, what choices to make. Live your own life, you pratt.
Proving my point
If you were presented with scientific proof that being vegan is harder on the environment, would you change your position?
Possibly. Weird question though, it’s not like that so?
Wether or not we should have children, given the quality of life/parenting we could offer.
Stop pissing on the toilet seat
Guys, don’t murder
Probably reduce meat consumption.
Create fewer new people.
Having a kid is the worst thing you can do for the environment, carbon footprint-wise.
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Eat less meat. Not none, just less. Just make conscious decisions to eat more ethically/better (which often translates to more expensively, and therefore less often). Try out some vegetarian meals, like stir fries, mexican foods (burritos/tacos etc), all of them can be 100% filling and tasty with no meat. You start to realize the cost savings, often biological/dietary benefits and you really truly don't miss (the frequency of) it at all.
I do still eat meat on occasion, usually when with other people or eating out and it's a treat. I feel less bad about this, but definitely lack the willpower/moral conviction to give it up entirely. But I can still take pride/solace in the fact that I'm doing 90% better by the planet than someone who insists on eating meat with every meal, or who buys the cheapest bulk meats they can (aka mistreated/factory farmed garbage).
When driving, DO NOT be polite. Be predictable. This is the best advice I can give to young drivers. Being polite feels like an ethical choice, but if you do it in an unpredictable manner you can make the road more dangerous.
To clarify, you can and should be polite in a predictable manner. But predictability comes first. Other drivers need to be able to know what you're going to do next.
Reduce your personal waste.
Use reusable shopping bags. Don't take plastic bags for stuff like apples and veggies unless it's a truly "bulk" item and it will be spilling out the cart. Get tupperware or reusable wrap for lunches and stop pumping foil, saranwrap and zip lock bags into the environment. Buy a 5 gallon water cooler so you aren't pumping two cases of water bottles a week into the waste collection. Basically if you can carry it in a disposable container, you can get a non wasteful variant and use that.
It's really not much, and it really won't cause you too much headache, but if EVERYONE did this, if it was the cultural norm, shit. The impact would be HUGE!!!
I think if you’re not willing to kill it, prepare it yourself at least once, you shouldn’t be eating it... Would surely give people a lot more respect for meat.
Recognize that your opinions on situations are likely based off of your culture, upbringing, and experiences and therefore end the habit of making your opinion the most important one in the room/feed/thread/office.
Alternatively... listen better. Generally, we are terrible at listening to people.
The best comment I have read on this thread thus far.
Also, not to emotionally bring your opinions to the table and rather, bring it from a logical stand point.
If you're looking for the vegans, they're in controversial.
Smokers: I respect your vice but please stop throwing cigarette butts anywhere else apart from the bin. Keep the environment clean.
Be respectful of others around you, kindness buys you more happy years in life rather than being a bitter person.
Always speak your mind and stand your principles when you see injustice around you, it counts for those in need and to be heard.
We should stop judging people when what they do doesnt affect you at all.
We should all seriously reduce our meat consumption. Whether or not the treatment of animals prior to being slaughtered is an ethical dilemma (to me it obviously is but I know I’m in the minority here), the environmental impact that the meat industry has is massive. It’s one of the easiest ways to help save the environment.
For me personally, and probably plenty of people like me: leave 5 minutes earlier.
Not procreating
Not throw other people under the bus when shit goes south
Say hello, just even look at some stranger much older or younger, tough looking, wimpy looking, odd looking, hell someone who looks like your evil twin, and smile, you'd be surprised how far that goes. If it's safe to do so and your in a social setting, or its daytime in your apartment complex or neighborhood, you don't have to be fake about it, if your in a good mood it'll come beaming out of you right into whoever you encounter. I love saying hello or holding the door open for old people, they say some ultra random funny stuff.
Reusable water bottles
Check YES to be an organ donor.
Keep in mind the importance of your job, and the real life effect of your work.
I understand we all deal with petty office politics, bad bosses, irate/irrational people etc... Don't lose sight of the fact that most jobs are still about handling something that is important to people. It's ok to hate flipping burgers, but take pride that there are hungry people who are now fed because of your efforts.
If you wash cars for a living, think about all the aspects you've improved by doing what you do. Not just the people who have clean cars, but all the people who get to see a pretty car rather than a dull one during their commute. Over a longer term you've probably stopped a few accidents without knowing. That clean/bright car was easier to see in a blind spot, or those clean windows and mirrors made it easier to see that cyclist in the bike lane.
Lastly, even if you do have a big important job that you enjoy, never look down on anyone else based on their job. It's all important, and we are all on the same team.
Stop shopping at Walmart. Pay slightly more to help support your fellow citizens.
Getting sterilized. There are far too many humans. Virtually all of our major problems today are rooted in that. Well, that or religion.
Too many hungry mouths, not enough resources. We are past the point of having enough to spread around through good management.
To much pollution and ecological meltdowns due to too many people shitting everywhere. Too much garbage, burning fossil fuels, and industrial and farm waste.
Not enough arable or livable land, too much demand. And so on.
There is also the philosophical consideration that reproduction is inherently unethical because life is a cycle of suffering. By creating a person you are guaranteeing that person is going to experience suffering and misery at some point, as well as potentially causing it. There is also some narcissism inherent in it. "Zog is best caveman! Zog make more Zog!"
Adoption is far more ethical if you must nurture something.
We don't have another Earth to colonize and use up. If we use this one up we die in our own refuse.
Reducing the amount of meat we eat. Besides being being ethically irresponsible, it's also environmentally more efficient to eat more vegetables.
Use your turn signals! The life you save my be your own.
Nonviolent communication - it's a specific strategy to communication, with less judgement, accusations, argument, and escalations. It helps to shape the speaker's world to be easier to understand and more clear in causes of feelings and requests. It helps the listener to understand what's going on instead of feeling attacked.
End censorship and stop trying to dictate other people.
Just because its the internet does not mean you should be a dick and hostile or get away with such.
My go-to for reducing impact is don't have kids, but I don't want to say that no one should have kids. I think if everyone got to choose, the numbers would go down anyway.
Maybe everyone should at least consider having adoption as a first choice, rather than a backup, in the event that they feel prepared to be parents.
Edit: Looking at more comments, someone already said that. So, how about; don't put clothes on your pets. They'll be happier without them.
Unless it's weather-related or for medical reasons.
Adopting from shelters instead of buying purebred pets
Rejecting homeopathic "treatment." While many claim that it works for them through placebo, legitimising the practice of these treatments undermines actual medical professionals, which may cost lives.
I think that this is a good opportunity to mention how important mental health is and how much people don't really know much about it. Many believe that mental health issues aren't real and the label "crazy" is used more often than it should, this only perpetuates the stigma around it.
This seems the right moment to try to mention a few things about it. We grow up with the idea that we should get a job and have a family, then we will be happy, what if you're not happy by then? What if something happens before you can even get a job?
I would like to take this moment to show how a mental health condition which I knew nothing about changed my understanding over mental health issues and my entire life.
Growing up I had a lot of pain but I always assumed that it was something what people called "growing pain" which is the pain you get while your body is still developing, how wrong was I.
I was diagnosed with something called fibromyalgia, its so unknown that my OS says that the word is wrong, it is not. It is estimated that 3-6% of the world population has it, but here is where things become tricky, there is no test or method to diagnose someone. How do you know you have it? Well, let me explain.
Fibromyalgia (FM) literally means: pain in connective tissue and muscles. Fibromyalgia is also called soft tissue rheumatism. It occurs in about two out of every hundred adults, especially in women.
Fibromyalgia is a chronic pain syndrome consisting of general muscle pain and muscle stiffness accompanied by (sometimes extreme) fatigue, sleep disturbances, headaches, anxiety, depression, allergies, concentration and memory disorders, temperature increases and intestinal complaints. This condition occurs especially in women in the age group of 20 to 60 years.
So in short, fibro fucks my body and mind at the same time while society looks at me and says "dude, you're fine that is just something you can take pain killers for".
What causes the pain?
It is believed that the neurotransmitters in the brain of sufferers doesn't really work as it should and for this reason it sends pain signals when its not supposed to. For example I will be making dinner and all of the sudden I have pain and need to rest, this also makes it so that I will loose hunger and have really bad mood swings.
Whenever I try to explain the condition to others, I see the boredom in their face when it takes longer than five seconds to explain the condition, or when they just cannot wrap their heads around it.
To sum it up, this condition does not have a specific or efficient way to diagnose someone, it will fuck both your mind and body while destroying your social skills and personality. This combined with having to face day to day issues which all of the sudden become so trivial, this is hell.
I cannot tell you why does it hurt when I am in the kitchen making dinner while an hour ago it didn't, nor can doctors. Yes, they could mention the pain signals but they don't know why that is at this moment.
It hurts when I sit in the place for disabled people while all the other sits are filled with people and they are looking sideways at me for being perfectly normal and sitting where I am sitting.
Look, this may not have been the best post or the best way to explain it but this is my attempt of showing the world that a bit of compassion and understanding can go a long way for someone with fibromyalgia. I'd love to go outside one last time and not feel like my knees are about to be blown off.
I hope you're all having a great day.
Whenever you learn about someone you care about's birthday put it in your phone calendar. That way we can all stop using facebook.
Stop buying Nestlé products because fuck Nestlé.
Never go above and beyond your job description for an employer. You will never be rewarded with the loyalty you show to them, they will never be satisfied with your sacrifice, and they will begin to ask other employees to do what you've done as part of the job.
Be as clear in your speech as you possibly can. When you mean to tell people "no," tell them "no" loudly and clearly, and don't spend any time after trying to mitigate it. If you're making a good decision by saying no, you're saving yourself and the other person a lot of confusion and false hope by being direct. If you're making a bad decision, you deserve a bad response, and you should just state your position and take your lumps.
You will rarely go wrong by being silent, and it can help you lead a more peaceful life. There's always a good chance that something careless can fall out of your mouth and be hurtful, untrue, crass, pointless, or untimely. Try it for a day - only speak when it seems like it would be unethical not to. Learn to communicate through actions primarily, instead of words.
Letting go of animal agriculture. It’s killing us and the planet
We should get out of this "fuck you, got mine" mentality and actually start making an attempt to take care of each other.
Vote for people who aren’t democrat or republican.
Vote responsibly
Not purchasing products containing palm oil.
Drivers should be more aware of pedestrians and people crossing the street. I don't drive. I live in a major city with transportation. I allow myself extra time to walk and wait for the bus or train. A lot of drivers seem frustrated because they have to pause for you to cross the street to get to your bus stop. The second you pass their car they zoom by. Did those 5 seconds really inconvenienced you that much? You're already in a car. I'm sure wherever you need to be you will get there way faster me. Calm the fuck down
Let me counter with this: A car driving past takes 5 seconds, it can take 20-30 for a pedestrian to cross the road. Furthermore, a lot of energy is wasted stopping and bringing the car(s) back up to speed. Many times multiple cars have to come to a stop, with each containing multiple passengers who are all inconvenienced, just so one pedestrian can get across the street faster.
Lastly, as a pragmatic approach, it's a lot safer for the pedestrian to stop. They can do so quickly, in a matter of inches, and will be the one who bears the brunt of the impact in the event of one.
Not every corner has stop signs or lights though. I live in Chicago. There are cars every where. If I have to wait for a near empty street to cross I’m not going anywhere. Also, it’s still cold as balls in here. I’m sure your car is warmer. Just let me cross the damn street
When you throw away any plastic bottles, leave the cap off. Most bottles have water/liquid trapped in them and no one opens them at the dump so the water stays trapped for the full life cycle of the plastic which can be decades. This happens by the millions everyday and it's slowly depleating fresh water from the environment
Stop using single-use or unreusable plastics, especially straws!
When you split a muffin with someone, cut it in half vertically and don't just leave them the bottom half with the paper condom.
Drive the number of car lengths behind traffic that is actually recommended. It's not just to save lives; it's also so that people can merge safely, cars and trucks can adjust to the correct lane for their speed, and unnecessary gridlock is greatly reduced.
The slightly harder part is not getting angry at all the people passing you on the right to close any tiny gap, but you can get used to it.
If you have more than one child, consider your will and how would you want the trust fund to be structured in matters of your kid’s possible healthcare expenses should one fall into bad health and need expensive care. It brings a lot of scenarios up in whether the whole trust fund should be tapped to take care of one child’s healthcare expenses (thus depleting their sibling’s portion) or whether they would cap out at their equally apportioned funds and possibly suffer for lack of funds.
Composting. It's stupid easy and saves some space in the landfills.
Pick up your fucking dog shit
Don't have kids until you're ready and then stay with your significant other while you raise them. I know, I know, "but... circumstances!" Overall, I still think few things would have such a profound impact on our society or the world.
(yes, I'm prepared to be downvoted into oblivion for sounding preachy)
Move your money to a bank with an ethical investment policy. What's the point of charitable donations if your salary and savings are still funding war and exploitation?
As a young adult, I realized my future would be SO much easier if I had: no DUI's, no "oops" pregnancies, no STDs, no arrests, and no addictions. Now that I'm in my 40's, I am ridiculously grateful for that moment of clarity.
Going to prostitutes for psychological help.
Eat less meat, maybe even stop eating it. Factory farms put good families out of business, treat animals horribly, and damage the environment through the creation of dead zones in bodies of water. Reducing consumption of goods in general is even better. For example, do I really need to buy a cool game to be happy? Should I buy that thing when I could donate that money to a charity, if it exploits people for their labor, or contibutes to the degradation of our environment?
Don’t use the handicap stall in the bathroom if there’s another one open, just in case someone who actually needs it comes in after you.
This will 100% get lost in this thread but I’m gonna say it anyway.
Please learn to accept responsibility for your actions. Passing the blame to the people who have shown kindness to you only pushes them away. I’ve lost many friendships this way. It’s very hard to be the adult and admit that you messed up but it really builds your character and you gain so much integrity in doing so.
My parents still haven’t learned this one and it was very hard to get to a healthy place with them because of it.
I’ve learned who I want to be and I’m kind. But just because you are blaming me does not mean I’m the one at fault.
TLDR: Love others by owning up to your mistakes and swallow your pride and ego.
I know that a lot of vegetarian groups and animal rights activists can take a very patronizing all-or-nothing approach to vegetarian-/veganism, but I would say more incremental improvement is much more realistic.
One thing you can change that has incredible benefits is to start eating cage-free and preferably free range eggs. Of all the animals we use for food, egg chickens by far have it the worst off, often spending their entire lives in cages too small to turn around while they rub the skin off their chests on the cage and compulsively peck at their skin. Often, they're injected with painful chemicals when near death to force their body to rapidly produce eggs in their final minutes.
Making small changes like eating less meat, and eating ethically raised meat, and other animal products is an incremental change that can do an enormous amount of good, even if groups like PETA pursue a more absolutist perspective.
Probably going vegan, if I'm honest.
Eat less meat. I'm not a vegetarian or vegan but after doing research on how many resources it takes to cultivate the meat we eat, I felt like I needed to make a change. So while I still eat meat, I have considerably cut down on my red meat intake and try to have more veggie only dishes.
If you've got a short drive, start biking. Anyone can bike 3 miles, and with a little time you can stretch that to longer distances. Because of the garbage car culture in my city it's actually faster to bike during rush hour than it is to drive, even over distances of 10+ miles.
Organ donation
Stop buying shit at Walmart.
Don’t have more than two children. 7.5 billion is already too many.
Always leave a place better than you found it, this applies to beaches and parks But can be extended to people we meet, brighten a bit their day if you can, it pays out :)
Some of these listed below are more conveniences 👇 than true ethics
Standing up to bad behavior. It's awkward, frightening, etc. It's easy to turn the other way.
Two days ago as I was closing up shop I saw a man violently chasing and chastising a couple. They got away from him by crossing the street while everyone, including myself, looked on. He yelled "Yeah, fucking leave! Get out of here."
And from my left the cook at the restaurant next door cut his smoke break early, walked forward and said "No dude-- why don't you fucking leave?" He stayed calm and listened as the guy went on a rant about vibrations and the world ending and his multiple resurrections, etc. He continued to calmly assert that the guy can't be yelling at people.
I felt embarrassed by my inaction and a new sense of admiration for that guy for getting involved when no one else did.
We should not tell vegans that they are consuming a fishes home when they drink water. The vegan population is dying at an alarming rate, faster than bees.
Have no more than 2 children.
To respect people who have different political ideas, to stop hating others on the basis of politics, to see that beliefs are one part of a complicated humanity, and to value all of humanity.
Appreciate janitors/custodians more. My parents are rarely appreciated however things some buildings they clean that show their appreciation by giving my parents extra money for Christmas and leaving us snacks. (Cause my parents work from 5 PM - 6/7 AM).
Self reflection. For me personally, every time I get out of a relationship, every birthday i have, even any seemingly insignificant milestone I take weeks, months, even years to reflect on where I’m at at that point in my life and reprioritizing my goals and what I can do to achieve it. I take a look at where I’m at and what I can do to become a better human in all aspects, discard any lingering negative personality traits that aren’t of use to me or the people about me. See what I can do to contribute more to my community as a whole, build integrity by doing what a lot of you mentioned but without anyone seeing me do them or telling anyone (except for right now ha) such as putting away shopping carts, letting people in on the freeway, holding doors open for people, complimenting people etc.
I also just want to say that I love reddit for threads like these, and I love all of you.
For almost a year now I haven't used plastic bags. If I'm just going to get one or two things, I dont use a bag at all. If it's a lot of stuff, I bring my own. It's kind of stuffy and pompous, but I dont waste the plastic.
Edit: also I avoid taking a receipt for most purchases, less paper.
Boycott Nestlé.
You may want to consider taking legal advice to resolve issues arising from the application of laws and regulations to particular situations relating to confidentiality, disclosure, privilege, self-incrimination and other areas.
Smile. Smiling is contagious, and makes people feel better.
Apologies if it's been stated. Only have children if something you and your partner REALLY want and can pull off. Teach your children manners, respect, to care for society and the environment. Teach them life skills, to think critically, even if that takes them in a different direction than you'd like. Be supportive. The world would be a much better place if we didn't have neglected, abused, unwanted kids growing up into adults that have to struggle with this for the rest of their lives.
Seriously consider to yourself whether you need to have children.
Not having kids or choosing to adopt instead. Overpopulation causes so many problems and there are already many children in need of families.
STOP USING STRAWS! America alone uses more than 500 million plastic straws every day, which is enough straws to fill 125 school busses EVRRYBDAY. They pollute our oceans, they kill sea turtles, and they provide a marginal benefit at best.
Don't freaking litter
No matter your religion, or lack of, the "Golden Rule" should apply: Do unto others as you would have done to you.
-OR-
Don't be a douchebag
Stop driving. Now.
Stop letting companies exploit us in exchange for having an online presence.
Turn signals.
Doing something for somebody else at least once or twice a day.
Adoption
Am I ready to have and support a family?
Using your blinker before you change lanes
I have been in many close calls because someone just kind of moseyed over and didn’t even bother to signal or just even look
We all have the responsibility to keep our corporations and government accountable.
To stop lying. Sam Harris, a famous author, has a short essay on lying that is really great, I recommend it to any and everyone.
Stop using plastic straws.
America uses 500 million plastic straws every day.
Every day.
Drinking directly from the cup -- or using a reusable straw, or a paper straw -- is a very small thing you can do to better the world.
Learn to grow some of your own food. Compost. Instead of raking up and throwing your autumn leaves away, turn them into soil enhancing free mulch. Don't litter, pick up after yourself. Don't carve your initials into trees. Stop driving so much. Adopt shelter pets instead of buying them. BE KIND, to man and beast alike. It's really not at all hard.
Eating unwanted children.
Trying to limit plastic use. Yes one person can't save the environment but doing anything to help it is better than nothing. Limiting plastic is a cheap, easy way for the average person to do that.
Just to name a few ways: Some countries are now charging for plastic bags at grocery stores to encourage reusable bag use. If you check the replacement policy you may be able to get free replacements when the bag breaks (Freshco in Ontario gives free replacements).
Amazon also has a good selection of mesh bags for fruits and vegetables that you can use. They don't add enough weight to your food to make a difference. This really cut down on my plastic.
Bulk Barn (and other bulk stores potentially, I just know Bulk Barn in Canada) let's you pre-weigh your container then subtract that total from what you put in it. This actually also helps avoid over buying for me. Yes the glass containers can be heavy but if your putting the stuff in containers anyway why not bring the empty with you.
Vote.
Produce more than you consume.
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G55y67uiujjhj is coming c
Respect Earth and its other inhabitants. That encompasses everything: from recycling, to being nice to people and not abusing animals for food and lifestyle. Your survival is your priority as a living being, but once that is taken care of you should try respect the world you live in.
Paying a little extra for clean electric.
To seek the protection of are rights that we lose daily? Like for fucking real America?
Posted this assuming this base had not been covered by any upvoted comment. Assumed right
Wherever you go, leave that place better than you found it. The world would be a much better place if we all lived with that attitude
Stop using single use plastic items. ie: straws, forks, spoons, knives
don't have children
Using clean energy. It is both cheap and moral.
Treat every person not as a means to an end, but as ends in themselves.
Become organ donors
Stop buying SUVs! They're literally everywhere in my city and most people driving them have no need for such a large, fuel guzzling vehicle. I'm looking at you, old man driving the porche cayenne!
Stop using Windows, Mac, Google, Facebook, and all the other spying services. Use freedom and privacy respecting software.
Don’t give the cop a hard time. 99% of the time they just want to ask you “what are you doing” and will let you go on your way. I can’t believe the people that want to give them a hard time for no reason. They don’t want to deal the paperwork if you are going to run etc. they are just as normal as you and would Like to go home for a beer and some sports.
Don’t do cocaine. It was probably made by some poor person and then traffic here by a really bad person.
Also you can order really pure, good drugs online and UPS will bring it right to your door.
Drive the speed limit.
Put your shopping cart in the cart corral. Stop being a lazy POS and leaving it in parking spaces.
Organ Donation
Really try to practice empathy and don't be a selfish hypocritical jerk. Really, just don't forget about the golden rule.
Signing up to be an organ donor!
Let's not shout down people who have an opinion different from ours. Yes, I'm talking about college campuses which were once bastions of the free exchange of ideas, some of which were challenging, but now ideas and speakers are shouted down if they aren't in agreement with groups like antifa.
I believe tolerance is a higher virtue than acceptance. I am free to choose to not accept your ideas, but I will tolerate them and defend your right to hold them. But acceptance without debate means that I have no choice but to follow your ideas even when I disagree and that is a form of totalitarianism.
Not buying Nestle
Stop encouraging this rapid obsolescence of technology and hang onto your tech. You do not need a new phone every two years. A new battery maybe but not a new phone that'll cost hundreds.
When you find yourself a secondary subject in an emergency situation, ask yourself "How would I want a person in my position to handle this?" And do that. I've been present and supportive for a co-worker as she miscarried unexpectedly and before any of her family could arrive. I have witnessed a hit-and-run where attaining vehicle info and staying with the injured party until medical arrived was the only thing I could do. I've been the victim in a car accident and given water to the children in the vehicle that hit me and a blanket to sit on off the roadway while we waited for help because it was stifling hot. I've picked up and cared for friends kids when they themselves had an emergency. Im not a particularly stellar individual, but we may all find ourselves in a shitty situation at some point, and those around us have the power to change it significantly for the better if they take that opportunity. Be a person who does that.
Don't flush the "flashable" wipes! Throw them into the bin!
Where's the polar opposite of this thread?
The choice to not hit your children. There are much more constructive ways to teach discipline to children than being aggressive towards them. I know so many adults who have trouble communicating and working out their feelings of anger or sadness. I know adults who lack problem-solving skills, and panic when they make even the smallest mistakes. A child needs to be taught discipline, not be disciplined. No, do not reward bad behavior; rather, allow your child to earn with good behavior, and lose with bad behavior. Teach them to calm down and communicate. Speak to them assertively, and establish and enforce boundaries for their behavior. There are numbers of ways that you can raise your children without hitting them.
Never, ever accept a single use plastic bag, recycle and compost everything you can, and reject wasteful packaging. Oh, and buy only free range eggs.
Whether a system based on astronomically unbalanced exploitation is the best we as a sentient, intelligence species can do.
Work on your own character. Work on yourself inwardly and it will manifest in countless ways outwardly
Being kind to others without expecting anything in return.
stop drinking bottled water?
Stop replacing things that aren't broken. For example; got a reasonably good TV that's six years old but still works? Just keep it. A new TV will only look better for a little while after replacing your old one, after which you'll be equally as happy with it as with old one.
Bullying - If you see something, say something. Also dont be a bully
Stop buying diamonds. Buy man-made if you must.
Natural diamonds are a product that is mined mostly in Africa and sold throughout the world. Most profit goes to the folks who cut, finish and market them (DeBeers, Etc.). Keeping Africa unstable is the best thing for diamond companies, and they spend a lot of money doing just that.
Stop buying diamonds. They are not your friend, or your girlfriends friends. They are death and war and poverty. They are a control and a lie lifted from the Matrix.
Stopping judging all of a group do to the actions of a small percentage of that group.
I'll never tell someone else what choices they should make.
Don't throw things out of your car. Someone has to pick that up, and if you're driving at a high speed, it could hit another person's car.
It's almost sad how much of this is common sense and it still needs reiterating.
Don't piss on the seat.
If at all possible . Use less plastic in your life .
Stop lying, all together. Tell the truth as much as you can. You will 1. be honest with other. 2. Become more honest with yourself.
Trying to consume less meat and animal products
We should all be using reusable bags
Stop supporting companies that mistreat their employees or do shaddy practices. No matter how useful their services are.
Post by: Sociopath Daily
Give money to trustworthy, effective charities, to the extent that we can afford it without seriously compromising our quality of life. It's common to dismiss "just writing a check" as a shallow way to do good, but cold hard cash is what's desperately needed to save and improve lives.
Just like anything else you're spending money on, you can and should shop around to find the best value (amount of good done) for your dollar. I use GiveWell as my main source of charity recommendations, because they research all their charities intensely, and recommend only the ones where your money is likely to do the most good. I usually donate to the Against Malaria Foundation, which distributes insecticide-treated bednets to protect people in malaria-prone areas from the mosquitoes that spread the disease. Each net only costs like 2 or 3 bucks, so you can be personally responsible for a whole bunch of people getting nets.
I find it helps to set aside a certain amount of money each month for the charity of your choice, and keep it completely separate from "your" money--whether you're doing recurring monthly donations or saving up for annual ones. Once you've specifically earmarked a portion of your income as "money that's going to help feed kids/prevent malaria/cure parasites/fix cataracts/etc," it's a lot harder to rationalize spending it on yourself, and it doesn't hurt as much to give it away since you never feel like it's "your" money in the first place.
Ask for no plastic straws at restaurants!
Frozen seafood and new clothing are industries totally dominated by slave labor. Shop carefully in these categories or not at all
No more fucking straws.
An interesting question to ask this user base.
If you want to force someone to do something you think is right, stop it! If you think the 'means' of force justify your 'end' then you are wrong.
Not paying scalpers. Even for the thing you really want, don't give them money.
Voting. Do it.
STOP ASKING THE GOVERNMENT TO RUN/HELP/DICTATE EVERYTHING IN OUR LIVES.
Essentially, reject all modern "liberal Democrat" and "post modernism,/ social justice warrior" thinking.
This style of thinking FAILS every time its imposed.
AMERICA IS GREAT, DONT DESTROY IT.
You mean "I don't want my tax dollars helping poor and/or minority communities."
America is only great if you are rich and white buddy. If you aren't one of those America can be pretty crappy for most people.
True facts. I’m white and ostensibly middle class. Life is rough. It shouldn’t be this rough.
Shop with purpose and intelligently. Dont mindlessly toss stuff in the cart that you don't really need . If the price of something goes up hold off on buying it there if you have alternatives. Do the math whenever possible.
We should stop consuming stolen porn. Seriously, watch the documentary Pornocracy, the whole Tube conglomerate is shady as hell and steals from adult porn stars.
Clean your room!
If you have no time for rasing a kid, don't have one.
Looking at you 100k$ a year, always on work parents who spoil their kids so it ends up being a sociopath.
Not having children
If you are a man, put down the toilet seat when you are finished. If you are a woman, leave the toilet seat up.
Consume animal products responsibly. The current agriculture industry is driving world hunger, and pollution.
To be kind
Look up companies that use sustainable and fair-trade materials (wood, palm oil) to help rainforests.
Fix the obvious things that generate massive inequalities.
Stop trying to force your religion / way of life on everyone else.
Kind of goes with point 2, but get religion out of politics. Half the country is stalling social progress by taking an emotional approach to things that need logical ones. For example, we can't even figure out what to teach kids in school about sex. We'd rather deal with epidemics of STDs and unwanted pregnancies than be "indecent" by telling kids the truth about sex once they realize an abstinence only approach isn't for them.
Stop buying paper/plastic disposable cups. Get a reusable coffee cup.
Vote with your wallet. Don't support shitty companies by buying their products if you can avoid it i.e. nestle, unilever, comcast, facebook. It's takes effort, but if people really want change you have to impact the wallets of the people who control lobbying.
Sharing. We teach our kids to share, and as adults we hoard our shit.
donate blood
donate old clothes that are gently used
big brother/big sister volunteering
habitat for humanity
reading to seniors
toys for tots
food drives... buying canned goods on clearance and just dropping them off at red cross
If you have the money, switch to solar. So many people in my area don’t do it because they don’t like the look of he panels. How often do you really look at your roof?
Depends on one's ethics. Though, I suppose, if "ethical" herein meant "making one's life and the lives of others around them better", then I suppose I'd have to say "be less greedy, and more mindful of others, as they too have lives and emotions that could be changed in a second--for worse or for better--depending on what you choose to do."
Use your goddamn TURN SIGNAL. Throw your trash away in the proper receptacle, even if that means holding on to it for a little bit. Don't be hostile to retail workers. Y'know... those sorta things.
It's the little things, y'all.
Drive electric cars.
Be nice.
I would like this question posed again, with a note saying 'aside from going vegan or ditching red meat'.
Before you preach a topic, understand it.
We shouldn't make fun of someone for not getting into a college.
Be responsible for your own happiness
Nobody else could make you as happy with ur life as you could yourself. Find your own goddamn happiness
Probably have fewer children.
Choosing not to consume animal products. There’s absolutely no reason you need to.
They are delicious.
That doesn’t justify anything.
It just justified my reason to eat meat.
No, it didn’t.
Yeah it did. That's why I did.
Well I think humans are delicious, so I’m gonna come and slaughter your body up and cook it in a stew. That sound okay?
...you gonna slobber on my knobber?
taking freedom of speech from so called "nazis" aka "anti-white genocidists"
Reduce your consumption of meat and other animal products.
Hmmmmhmmm. So you gunna stop eating meat?
Don't ______ too much
Stop using plastic
Not having children.
Pay attention to the environmental impacts of what you’re eating.
1) eat less meat when there are viable alternatives. The variety and quality of vegetarian food at restaurants has improved a lot in the last ten years. Eating some vegetarian is cheaper, and healthy for people who eat more meat than they should (almost all people from USA and Australia)
2) consume local where feasible - transporting food or anything is environmental damaging.
3) watch out for fish. Even though it’s better than red meat for global warming, a lot of it is pretty bad for depleting fish stocks. Do some research and find a good brand.
4) watch out for vegetarian food too. Certain foods from certain regions are bad. Rice growing is destroying Australia (world’s thirstiest crop in worlds’s driest continent). Make sure the food wasn’t grown in land that was old growth forest just before.
5) watch what you throw away. Buying perishables in bulk, forgetting what you have in the fridge etc is bad. Learn to reuse leftovers and spare food.
6) don’t buy individually wrapped food.
7) take your canvas bags to the supermarket.
Don't litter.
Smokers, cigarette butts are litter.
RESPECT WOMEN
Stop ordering take out. All those plastic and styrofoam containers really add up. At the very least don't take the bag and plastic cutlery if you don't need it. Alternatively, let the place know that you're bringing your own Tupperware when you order for pickup. A few places I do this with will give me significantly more food when I bring my own.
Stop farting in the god damn elevator. Squeak that toot out before you walk in.
Just because someone has a different opinion than you doesn't make them a bad person. Listen to them respectfully and continue on with your life.
Get an education/read good books Most ebooks are free, but very few people read commonly. I can’t talk to people about books.
having 2 or less kids. 2=replacement rate of you and your partner
Don't have kids
Be really careful about the makeup brands you buy. Many brands still test on animals, and some will even try to cover up this fact.
For example, if a makeup company produces makeup in China, you know that it has been test on animals because it is a legal requirement in China for all skincare and cosmetic products on submit to animal testing before approval.
I used to love MAC and NARS, but have stopped purchasing them as they have both admitted that they are not cruelty-free brands.
When washing your hands in the bathroom, follow these steps: 1) rinse hands briefly with water. 2) lather hands with soap. 3) use soapy hands to turn on faucet 4) rinse hands. 5) use water dripping from hands to rinse faucet handle. 6) turn off now clean faucet handle with now clean hands. 7) dry with paper towels.
Don't stand there with the water running while you dry your hands. It's perfectly okay to get the handles wet; it's a faucet. And don't use the blow dry thing because all it does is suck up all the germs floating in the bathroom air and blasts them at your warm, moist hands. Paper towels are perfectly recyclable. If we all did this, we would save a lot of water and get sick a lot less.
Learn how to use that lever that controls the blinkers on our cars.
Making a will. A lot of people think they don't have anything, a will doesn't matter. Even without anything, a will makes everything so much easier for legal next-of-kin. I worked a decade as a legal secretary, and have been a party to five estates. Trust me, no one went to their graves saying I wish the government and the lawyers had more of my money.
Don't freaking litter!!!
Don't click on news articles about mass shooters. The more stories like this posted, the more copy cat shootings occur. The stories keep getting posted because people keep clicking on them.
Be patient with learner drivers, they're going to make mistakes and be a hindrance but everyone on the road has been there.
Consider leaving your body to medical science, they always need fresh cadavers and have been suffering from a shortage.
We should all use reusable grocery bags and register as organ donors
Whether to have children. I've decided not to.
Not moving to Mississippi
may I ask for your reasoning?
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/8822nf/what_is_the_worst_state_in_the_united_states_and/
Wrap it before you tap it
If you are over 50: prepare for your death. fill out a polst form and make a will
Whatever you choose to eat, eat less of it
take steps to:
be vegan
[if #1 is not feasible] cut out as many animal products as you can.
use less goddamn plastic
plan for a more eco-friendly transport system (a personal goal of mine is to either live where i don't have to own a car of any kind, or buy a zero-emissions vehicle when my current car conks out)
why? because its the best thing to do for the earth. everyone and everything you love depends on our planet.
Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.
Pack in, pack out when traveling in the great outdoors.
Be mindful of your impact on your surroundings.
And for god's sake, STOP feeding the seagulls.
Recycling. It's really the least we can do.
No.
Reduce. (Reduce consumption of environmentally hazardous products).
Reuse. (Reuse products as seems fit for their utility and their ecological footprint).
Recycle. (Any product that can be recycled, recycle it).
In that order. Don't buy or use items simply because "they can be recycled"! Instead, think of the lifecycle of that product, the process, the materials, the cost to transport and the energy needed to create it. The energy costs to recycle it.
So since it is #3 on your list he is right that it is the least we can do.
Instead of buying plastic water bottles, buy a reusable bottle to refill! Save money AND save the earth!
Try to reduce your meat consumption -- and when you eat meat, eat some good one !
I'm not telling you to go ful vegetarian, but eating meat like once a week or more if you want is a good way of diminishing polution.
And as I said, with the economies you made, you can buy some really good meat when you eat some !
When you're shopping, put things back where you got them from. It makes the stockers/cleaners jobs SO much easier!
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This right here. People aren't generally masters of making sure the seat is clean after doing their business. And not just in public rest rooms. Even when I have friends over at my house there might be a little string of brown on my toilet seat afterwards. Come on, just wipe it off.
Getting sterilized. Sounds extreme, is certainly controversial, but think about it.
for most redditors that would be the unethical solution
think of all the carbon footprint of the sterilization process when most redditors aren't having sex anyway
HA! But seriously, it's way more ethical than mass destruction. It's easily the most ethical way to curb our population, and we need a check on that deeply.
To realize that the idea of having a god is bologna and we should all grow up and work together to further human intelligence as opposed to staying trapped in conservative nonsense.
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I plan on stopping pretty soon :D
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interesting qualifier there
As the guy who just popped a half-chub earlier tonight when I got on a brand spanking new city bus with phone-charging outlets, I'm gonna say use public transit. Seriously, if you live close enough to the city, that car is a luxury, not a necessity.
In my city it's cheaper and faster to move by car than public transit. Also, you cannot go some places without car. Sad but true.
You have modern bus, I have old and dirty shit. Also, some passengers are assholes. Some stinks awfully (older ones), some are noisy and smoke zigs (younger ones), some are so fat that it's hard to have a sit comfortable. Last but not least, I am a tall guy. You can't imagine how painful is sifting in the bus for more than 15 minutes. I have very, very long legs.
So yes, I prefer to use a car even if it'd have to pay more.
One subtlety I've noticed on this front is that once you own the car it is usually cheaper to use it.
If you own if, you already are paying for it's existence and the insurance no matter what so at that point it's the cost of the trip individual trip that makes the difference.
However if the option is between public transit and having a car...then public transit starts to win out a bit.
And I say all of this as someone who uses his car for my 2 hour commute most days.
By car you can go wherever and whenever you want. Huge advantage.
We should all get over ourselves.
Don't procreate. The universe has no objective meaning. The survival of the human race has no inherent value. If the human race goes extinct five seconds after you die or five bajillion years after that, it makes zero difference to you. The gradual decline of the earth's population via less procreation is not going to cause a civilization-ruining collapse. It will cause a somewhat-inconvenient adjustment that might actually be better for everyone who comes afterwards.
Eating animals is not necessary for surival, and there is no ethical way to kill someone who does not want to die. We should transition en masse to a plant-based diet.
Recycling!!
Know what the hell you're talking about. The world would be A LOT more different if we did some light research on a given subject. I too am guilty of this.
Ignore the FBI. Every country in South America chews Cocoa leaves as coffee. It's just that the stuff won't grow in the USA.
Practicing safe sex, birth control and know how much it would cost to raise a baby on average.
Reducing the amount of meat we eat, it's destroying the environment more than most know
stop trying to impose our values on others and calling it tolerance
you are hypocritical bigots, STOP!
Idk man, I feel like everyone around me felt the same way. They even had names for it like the ‘meat sweats’ or ‘the sickness’. They continue to eat meat though, I guess it’s hard to give up, like drug or something. Nothing tastes as good as vegan feels, I definitely agree it’s that. Have you tried an entirely plant based diet for any length of time, say 6 months or more, to be able to objectively support your opposing viewpoint? If not I definitely recommended it. It could be the best decision you never make!
Here’s a good one. Stop telling people what to do.
isn't that a bit hypocritical?
No. It's the blanket statement of the N.A.P. Someone telling somebody what to do is the first initiation of force. The reply is addressing that and returning the scenario back to it's normal state.
yeah, but youre telling me what to do right now, plis what if i just blow smoke in my neigbors baby's face does that violate NAP?
If it's not the inital force, it's reinstating common balance. That's why it's the Non Agression Principle, we're not being aggressive by telling our neighbor to stop burning plastic outside and venting it into our home, we are retaliating with appropriate means by simply using neccassry force, which begins with politeness.
but you just said stop telling people what to do, exactly did you have in mind when you posted your original comment?
It's the blanket statement of the N.A.P. Someone telling somebody what to do is the first initiation of force. The reply is addressing that and returning the scenario back to it's normal state.
The person stopping the person from telling them what to do is not committing the unethical act. Just as somebody who stops a murderer or a carjacker is not committing an unethical act by engaging in violence. They are not hypocrates for engaging in a retaliatory action, but instead attempting reinstating the prior state after an initiation of force has taken place.
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I'm a Paleo-Libertarian. Didn't know philosophic principle was something exclusive to ancaps, either that or you're new to political philosophy
What exactly is a paleo-libertarian?
Paleo-Libertarianism generally speaking, is the final form of the defining process of Classical-Liberalism/Libertarianism
This means to say that Paleo-Libertarianism is modeled after early versions of the concept with the modern extent and progression of those principles. Starting with the concept of Natural Law from Aristotle, to the defined concept of property and free interaction/trade from Locke, Adam Smith's classical liberal study of the free market, and forwards into the combination of Praxeology and economics which stands as Austrian economics.
Rothbard is most commonly credited with the term of "Paleo-Libertarian" but generally speaking, it's been around since Classical Liberalism, except without proper economic and philosophic definition; as modern Paleo-Libertarianism is strictly defined by the Austrian/Chicagan/Georgian economic schools, a very strict isolationist approach to foreign affairs (but not foreign markets), and justifies its morality around the N.A.P (The Non-Aggression Principle).
Now from these principles, a set of principled actions can be always be predicted.
For example, if the issue of forced cake baking arrises, a Paleo-Libertarian would stand on the Austrian Free Market, and N.A.P, predictably taking the side of the store owner having the choice to deny service; for, the government or potential customer would be committing the immoral act of using force to achieve their goals against the store owner who has done nothing, except literally nothing at their own expense. As in a Free Market, another provider who sells to said potential customer would be taking their potential sales from them. Preventing the popularization of racist and anti-homo business practices naturally and within moral restraints.
Another example of Paleo-Libertarianism in affect would be the support for the right of a business owner to choose what salary or benefits he/she would offer to his/her employees based off of the N.A.P and Austrian Free Market principles. For the business owner is not committing an immoral act by proposing an agreement that the individual is capable of refusing or accepting as a conscious Human Being. And if the said potential employee forces the company to set salaries based on their preferences by means of government force, they themselves are immoral and unjustified as they are committing the initiation of force. This is not to say the companies that offer bad benefits will succeed in a Free Market, as Austrian economics describes that businesses that offer better benefits and wages attract those of more capable workers; hence, those that offer better contracts of labor often make better products or services and hence make more money and succeed in the market, growing and making it near impossible for the market to naturally allow "unfair" wages.
Paleo-Libertarianism has often been placed among the lines of Civic Nationalists as well (Nationalists in support of national philosophic principle rather than ethnic majority being the focus) This support of Civic Nationalism leads Paleo-Libertarians to reject the popular movements of accepting mass migration from areas like that of the middle east due to the stark contrast of popular philosophic principle between the two groups. Being that if the two groups of Liberal thought and Islamic absolutism cannot survive together in conjunction. This border policy has often placed us in the firing line of leftist and ancap criticism as being fascists; but given under a Free Market, the federal government practically gets nothing but necessary to support infrastructure and basic government function, a police state is therefore wholly impossible under these conditions.
This generally covers what Paleo-Libertarianism intends.
Take it back.
Or how to feel!
Ok I won't say anything to someone planning to rape you then.
Edit: Holy shit I wasn't being serious, I was just demonstrating why it would be absurd to never open your mouth about other people's actions.
Stop letting fear of people we don't know or understand turn us into assholes. It's contagious and breeds so much unnecessary hate.
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Okay, I'll cancel all my invasions of countries thanks.
You'll never win Hearts of Iron 4 this way.
Nah, I have Civ V's patronage and city-state relationships.
Or not invading a paycheck if they dont want to buy healthcare
I'm probably going to be massively downvoted...
Go vegan.
Not only will you save thousands of animals, but you will reduce water usage, less land will be used to grow food for animals, less plastic will be used which would have been used to package the meat...the list goes on.
Also, the health benefits are undeniable. Vegans are factually proven to be less susceptible to heart problems, digestive issues and they live longer.
I try so hard not to be preachy or defensive in my life when discussing veganism. But it's not as hard as some think. It's just a choice.
Stop hiring leaf blowers. They're bad for your lawn and the environmental impact is enormous, iirc it's like having a bunch of diesel cars idling for an hour by your house. Not only do they blow leaves off your lawn but they also blow away a huge amount of organic matter your lawn needs in order to be healthy.
Hire a teenager, buy a rake and pay them $30 to pile your leaves.
Please don't eat meat. It's where most green house gasses come from.
Stop eating meat
Eliminating animal products from our lives, both as food and clothing.
Lessens risk of many of the most common health problems, significant reduction in resource consumption and greenhouse gas emissions, better for animals.
Not driving fossil fuel burning cars.
Ah right nice one, if you could just sling 70k my way so I can buy a new Tesla that would be spot on.
I'm not saying you can 100% cut back from driving because that's impossible for lots of people. But you can make an effort to use public transportation, Bike, or walk to places where it's reasonable. Most people drive plenty of places they could easily get to without any carbon emissions (not to mention no costs on gas and car maintenance).
Little heads up, I’m a car guy. Cars excite me, I love driving them, seeing them, hearing them, reading about them.
I also hate pollution so it’s kind of a bitch.
I feel you, but a large part of ethics is sacrificing what we enjoy if it has a negative impact on other agents.
Edit: seeing and reading about them also def requires minimal emissions so were fine on that :P.
I’m a car guy. Cars excite me, I love driving them
And we're talking about making ethical choices. Not making selfish choices to indulge ourselves.
Selfish or the fact that I can’t really afford to buy an electric car just yet? I’ll sit back in my car and enjoy the turbo for now, Bonny lad.
Both. You cant afford one, but you only need one for selfish and short-sighted reasons.
Its mentalities like yours that are the reason we are in the situation we are.
Yeah man sorry. Tell you what, I’ll take the long way home tonight and really give it some beans.
At least it’s turbo and not a diesel. Am I rite?
(Ps I’m rite)
And your Tesla will still probably run on power generated by fossil fuels, sadly.
I think eating less meat in general would be ethical.
Using less plastic, recycling more
Taking a moment to listen to opposing views(I try to listen, or read one of each of these a day: republican news source, one centrist news source, and one democrat news source and coming to a conclusion. Having your views challenged is important, and makes you a more well rounded individual
Treat people as individuals, not a part of a group.
Listen to others, and I mean truly listen.
Live in moderation, not excess. This goes for temperament, indulgences, and vices.
Treat others as you would like to be treated.
Speak with precision, so as to not misspeak or be misunderstood.
Think before you speak, which goes along with the last point
Attempt to understand an issue before formulating an opinion
Make decisions that may be tough for the short term, that would benefit the long term.
Put the well being of others ahead of yourself, in general
Eat less red meat ? Seems like the worst pollution on earth far away from car pollution. I heard from one of my biology class teacher that a man eating red meat driving an electric car was polluting more than a non-red meat eater driving a Hummer.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jul/21/giving-up-beef-reduce-carbon-footprint-more-than-cars
Eat less meat and buy meat from local and responsible sources. Eating factory meat every day is soooo bad for the planet
We absolutely eat less meat. I don't say you shouldn't eat meat at all. All I want to say is: you don't need meat all day Buddy.
Not eating meat, or at least avoiding factory-farmed meat and dairy. It should be obvious by now that animals have complex emotions, and subjecting them to holocaust-level existence by the hundreds of millions should be inexcusable. Cognitive dissonance is the only explanation for why good, kind people continue to eat factory meat. We have to reflect on this as a society and change our attitudes toward animals.
Only drink cruelty free water
Is this a joke because if you think about it, this is definitely a thing.
Many brands of bottled water are pumped from communities under dubious circumstances or without their consent. Even then, it's very wasteful to use water to bottle water then spend money on bottled water while paying taxes to purify your tap water.
Is this a joke because if you think about it, this is definitely a thing.
It was supposed to be.
The world is fucked when cruelty free water is an ambiguous joke.
Whelp. I guess now you know the world is fucked.
Cuz companies like Nestle are putting cruelty aplenty in their water.
Eat less meat. One meal a day or less. Humans eating a western diet dramatically over-consume meat, and there's no good reason for it. It's not healthy for your long term health and there's no nutritional need for it. Plus, you're often not even consuming quality meat instead of stuff that comes off factory style production methods that produce very poor quality meat. Increasing demand for cheap meat means more domesticated animals have to be treated with a butt load of antibiotics which absolutely do end up in the food and absolutely do produce antibiotic resistant critters and we have absolutely no idea what the long term effects of this will be.
Get plastic out of your life. If it's not an electronic device, a car, or a toothbrush, it shouldn't have plastic on it. The long term health effects from exposure to plastic are poorly understood, and that shit doesn't degrade like you'd like it to.
Buy the car you need, not the one you want. Drive the car you have, not the one you think you have.
Stop consuming palm oil and it's derivatives. While there's such a thing as ethical palm oil, most of it is the product of massive deforestation efforts around the globe.
Stop buying phones you don't need. Take care of the ones you have. Ask yourself if you really need the latest Iphone. Even if we ignore the fact that it's incredibly frugal to just buy used phones- you can go as cheap as 20 bucks if you want to!- when you get right down to it most people really just need a phone that can hold their music, answer calls, and answer texts. The internet is nice, the smart phone is nice, but you're probably spending at least $360 a year so that you can look at youtube videos while you shit. That number spikes if you insist on buying a new phone, too; the extended cost of a brand new Iphone can be over $1,000.
Plus, you know, cell phones require a ton of technology and scarce materials you don't just find anywhere and proceed to end up in dumps and land fills.
Eat less fast food.
EDIT:
No matter how well you think your family gets along, if you're leaving anything of real value- assets or stuff- leave a fucking will. If you say uncle Larry gets your collection of baseball cards worth north of six figures, the family can't complain. Because you're dead.
Don’t have kids, the world is over populated as it is.
Stop eating animals and animal products, it’s a serious strain on the environment, not to mention cruel. There are plenty of plant based options that fulfill all of the nutritional requirements the human body needs.
Go vegan
Not eating meat, or at least - not so much of it. Seriously. I'm not a vegan, but I really believe that in a few decades we're going to look back and not believe how carefree we were about consuming it, both from a health point of view - but also from a "kindness to other living things" point of view too.
The more money you make, the more willing you should be to pay your fair share in taxes, instead of trying to take advantage of tax loopholes.
Cutting back on how much meat and animal products we consume.
Maybe not eat so many animals. They go through hell so your taste buds can go to heaven.
Go vegan.
Stop buying fast fashion. It's bad for the environment, bad for workers and (in the long run) bad for your budget.
Care about liberty and the Constitution. The Bill of Rights is a pretty amazing thing. Shit of the TV it's poison. Stop letting people role is with bullshit emotions, like SJWs.
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Me neither. All this vegan talk makes me want a steak.
Not eating animals
Make the effort to buy products that are cruelty free.
It's 2018, there is no need to be testing on animals. We all need to push to end this.
Sorry to be THAT person but.... going vegan! (It’s actually way easier than you think)
How, because I would like to know your stand point on this specific point of life style that is different than mine.
It’s not so much of a standpoint than it is a fact.
It helps end world hunger. >70% of the grain grown in the US feeds livestock. Millions of food grown in the US is specifically for animals raised for our consumption but it could feed our people.
Deforestation, pollution, and overfishing is caused by meat/fish industries.
There isn’t enough land to use for food to sustain the population growth we are facing by year 2050.
Cutting down on a single kilo of beef will save 15,000 liters of water.
Raising animals dilutes and destroys soil//raising plants nourishes it.
Meat takes SO MUCH energy. Think about the process of raising/transporting/cutting/shipping/packaging/etc. all the way to your table put into it.
Animal poop is like the biggest air polluter in the world. Plants literally clean the air.
At least cut the red meat. It leads to heart disease, stroke, cancer....
Being a vegan will force you to look at all of the ingredients you are consuming which should cause you to eat healthier, or at least be more aware of what you are putting into your body.
Ethics. I shouldn’t have to say more than this: watch Food inc or a similar documentary. Learn about the horrific process factory farms put animals through to end up on your plate.
Even if you just don’t want to be vegan (it took me four years of guilt to take the plunge), you can still cut animal products out of your diet in some way, whether it be smaller portions or only eating them on weekends.
What do you think?
Well to be honest I was drunk when I asked the question and I toldly didn't think I'd get the response back that you gave. I was expecting some whack response but you gave reasonable facts
Just to add one more thing: Antibiotic resistances. The next pandemia will very likely originate from a (figurative) barn if nothing is done about it. The massive use of antibiotics - especially in chicken farming - makes it a perfect breeding ground.
Not having children. Use birth control people! And donate to planned parenthood for FUCK’S SAKE. Especially if you are in a group that is a historical oppressor.
Especially if you are in a group that is a historical oppressor.
If you are white you should donate to an organization that was started by a black hating eugenicist!!!
Especially if you are in a group that is a historical oppressor.
Cringe
oh fuck off.
Dickwad.
Planned Parenthood was started by a woman who admired the KKK. You see it as giving women choices, etc. The truth is rather darker, if you care you delve into it.
And the United states was originally populated by religious fanatics, criminals and social rejects.
Shall we condemn the United States and everyone in it?
Hell of a straw man you have built there.
I am mixed race and would not donate to an organization that wanted my grandad never to have been born. It doesn't mean I wish death to the USA.
Hell of a straw man you have built there.
No, it's an analogy.
You need to look up the definition of strawman.
I am mixed race and would not donate to an organization that wanted my grandad never to have been born. It doesn't mean I wish death to the USA.
You have a grave misunderstanding of the eugenic perspective of PP's founder. Margaret Sanger preached about how a growing "underclass" would destabilize society. She said this to get money from rich Social Darwanists.
She never supported race or ethnicity as a platform for birth control. It was about class, always. I encourage you to read about her views
But even though her position was still ethically tenuous, I'd continue to volunteer and donate to Planned Parenthood. Even though I come from a bunch of white trash degenerates, i.e. exactly the kind of people Ms. Sanger spoke about reducing in number.
Your outrage is manufactured on a misunderstanding of history. Even then, it's irrelevant to what PP does today.
Go vegan.
Go Vegan.
Don't be a racist asshole.
Don't be like Donald Trump.
Don't be selfish. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, which is you.
Sometimes you have to be selfish.
Sometimes you have to be shellfish.
muh collective
Actually no. Unless there's a giant population at risk or its coming from genuine compassion, I'm putting myself first.
You know you are a part of the many right? The needs of the many are probably your needs to. You can put yourself forward without screwing others over.
I'd rather separate myself from the collective
Defining yourself based on your difference from the collective still necessitates the collectives existence for your self definition.
Most people that feel they are 'super different from the collective' are actually very similar in many ways to most people in the collective (part of that is most people feel like they are a super special individual myself included). Not to mention that literally every humans biological success and livelyhood is inherently dependent on the human species both at an abstract and individual level.
And I'd rather sprout wings and fly everywhere but both are impossible. Everything you consume was made by someone else, every idea you've ever had was given to you by someone else, or a merging of several ideas given to you by someone else. You as an individual could only exist within a collective.
After recently finishing Atlas Shrugged id like to call you a looter.
Ha, Atlas Shrugged was an interesting one. To bad Rand had absolutely no realistic view about how people operate in personal relationships.
I think she projected a bit and has some serious sub fantasies.
sexually submissive women are a thing. It's the idea of all the guys being ok with their buddies gettin' it on with their old girl friend.
After recently finishing Atlas Shrugged
I hope you recover soon
I’m sorry you won’t be reading again.
Truth. People seem to forget that if everyone is selfless and caring for others, they don't need to care for themselves because other people will. It's like distributed prosperity. The benefit, of curse being less reliance on any one piece (person). If someone can't do it anymore, it places relatively little strain on the overall wellbeing of the group, less if the group is larger.
Said the guy that pays other people to kill animals on his behalf, so he can eat them burgers and bacon.
Most people do not want to hear this but the single most devastating thing you can do to the environment is eating meat and dairy. I encourage people to look into the environmental impact of meat (the meat industry as well as organic/grass-fed etc) and then make an informed decision. Some informative documentaries on Netflix: What the Health, Cowspiracy, Food Inc, Fed Up.
Veganism literally has no negative aspect, unless you count making people feel aware and thus uncomfortable.
No animal products -> animals don't suffer, we use less water and land to produce our food, not as many rainforests are cut down, and so on and so on.
Also is much healthier than average diet.
Veganism
Choosing to not join the military.
They are not protecting "freedom". They are not "keeping us safe". They are not defending the interests of the ordinary American.
They are an aggressive force that promotes and protects the interests of multinational corporations.
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Many people in American society have some connection to the military. It's hard to look at a father, brother, sister, or friend and see them as immoral or unethical. It's the same double-think that allows christians to join the military when the organization's main mission breaks one of the ten commandments. Down votes away!!
Because the military is backed by corporate Democrats(DNC), and Republicans. they aren't some separate entity that does as it pleases.
What he said is also true but blaming the military instead of the actual problems is an antiquated notion at this point.
and when shit does hit fan(unlikely any time soon) everyone's going to be looking for the killbot factory to save them.
Not to mention war is completely different now. very few even see combat.
Just be a genuine person. Dont be two faced. Be you all the time. Im so sick of fake ass people coming into my life only to find out they arent who they say they are.
Not eating meat
Adopting veganism. If everybody were doing it, we would solve many deforestation problems, we would reduce many health problems. And we would be killing 69 billion less land animals per year, and 2.7 trillion less sea animals per year.
It's not an ethical life choice it's just a choice. Animals are a renewable source. We just need less people on this earth
adopting veganism is not an ethical life choice
First time I've ever heard that in my entire life.
Peeing outside/flushing less. When peeing outside you save an entire bowl of clean water and your pee is naturally filtered through the soil and returned to the water system.
I had no idea that 5 year old me was so ethical!
Won’t lie, when I take the dogs out at night to the backyard, I piss occasionally lmao. Don’t wanna wake the roommate with the flush 😂
There is nothing better than fresh air and breeze while taking a pee
You're preaching to the choir bud!
It only works if the amount of urine is small enough for the enviroment to absorb it. If everyone in a city dumped their urine into 1 area it would be bad.
When I do this the police want to talk to me 👮♀️ 👮♀️
If you live anywhere moderately rural, go septic. Your leech field naturally keeps your waste water in your own water table, in some climates at a rate of nearly 90%
We should stop procreating, because it's the worst choice you can make for our environment, it's nonconsensual, & it risks extreme suffering, especially of the innocent.
Antinatalism is on the rise it seems...
Yayyee
ITT: Act like Europe, not America.
Birth control until able to provide. Bringing lives to poverty and starvation is not ethical.
First let me say, I understand the value that a meal with meat has to offer. Meat has umami flavors that are hard to replicate, it's dense and filling, and is ubiquitous in cuisine around the globe. However, animal agriculture has been proven to be directly responsible for a number of alarming issues around the world, even outside of the fact that many of these animals suffer in life and while they are killed.
Animal agriculture is the cause of Ocean Dead Zones, an estimated 51% of all CO2 emissions globally, and it takes a lot more water to grow crops and feed livestock than to just feed the humans said crops. Methane, 80% of antibiotics are going to our livestock, 130 times more animal waste is produced in the U.S. than human waste, overfishing, by-catch, deforestation, and as many as 650,000 whales, dolphins and seals being killed every year by fishing vessels.
These are all just a taste of the long list of issues surrounding meat and I haven't even mentioned the impact on human health that animal products create. I'm sure this is all coming across as a giant rambling mess, but please don't take this as me forcing you to go cold turkey on turkey. Not many people go vegan overnight but if you can read about these problems and see all the harm this is doing all for human tastebuds, I know you will understand why while not all vegans are aggressive and in your face, all vegans are screaming inside their heads because we just want it all to stop. The solution is so obvious.
It might not be the easiest, but I can assure you going vegetarian or vegan is actually easier than you think. Thanks for reading my ramblings :)
...you'll get a better response if you ditch the word umami
Because it sounds like ooh mommy? It's just a Japanese word like tsunami or kawaii plus I thought "savory flavors" sounded too clunky. Also fun fact: the Japanese word for diarrhea is 'geri'... Sorry Spongebob's pet :(
using japanese words when English words exist and are in common use make you sound either pretentious, like a hipster, or sometimes even a pretentious hipster
Okay I can see where you're coming from. For me personally, I've studied Japanese and really enjoy cooking as a hobby so I've heard the word thrown around a lot and used as a more specific form of the word savory. But if you don't share either hobby I get it.
Taking money and resources out of a system without putting any money and resources into said system IMMORAL.
You are not entitled to take money from me and my community simply for existing.
Looking at you, APPLE
Don't shop at Wal-Mart
Travel less, or less far (by plane I mean). It's not a right to do a world trip. And flying is not great for your footprint.
Well, once you get up to altitude, you've already burned the majority of the fuel for the trip, so fuck it, may as well go to the other side of the world
True, but the improvement of your footprint by living one year as a vegetarian, is cancelled by one flight holiday of 2 3hr flights.
http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/carboncalculator.html
People will get angry but we need to stop eating so much meat. Meat is supposed to be a twice a week think, yet people eat it in every meal and it's damaging our environment in a great way. Reduce a family of four meat consumption by 50% and it's like half of them became vegetarians. We need to eat less meat in a global scale and find alternatives to it like Insect meat (uses a fraction of the resources of beef to produce, is leaner and has more protein by the pound).
Stop watering your yard! The amount of water wasted but even worse the money and resources used to build more lakes and more wells and pumps and the energy used by those pumps. All these wasted resources and energy so you can grow a non-native grass in your yard.
Required by law that I keep my lawn green, shorter than 3" and weed free.
In order of diffculty: switch to a green energy supplier switch to a green bank *eat less meat
Stop using straws!!
Y
They are extremely hard on the environment.
Stop shopping on Amazon.
Eat less meat. Our eating behaviors have a far more negative impact on the environment than not recycling.
Eat less meat
Boycotting the animal agriculture industry.
I'm a vegetarian, but I would prefer that if people are going to continue to eat meat, that they do it as ethically as possible for slaughtering animals for consumption. I'm talking about small farms, where the animals are cared for, and they have space and some peace before they die. I'm against it for myself but I think it's a better option than the mass industrial version.
I would even be okay with people trying to hunt as much of their meat as possible, rather than buying it from the grocery store. Again, personally don't agree with it but i believe it's a better option than what we have going on now.
Attack companies that are mass producing things everyone in this thread is telling you to avoid - it's not your fault Nestle is sucking dry important water masses for cheap (look at their deal with Michigan) and mass producing plastic bottles.
It's not your fault that companies frack or leak oil into the oceans.
It's not your fault if your city doesn't recycle.
You, as an individual, are not fucking responsible for these mother fuckers that dodge taxes and ruin the earth. Fuck them, they need to pay for what they've done.
cut your tubes.
Not having kids.
We need to stop letting mass-market advertisers use fear, hate, and insecurity to sell us useless shit and vote against our own interests.
Corporations and political organizations thrive on people's tendency to fear what is different and cling to the rosy recollections of their younger years. They would keep us locked in place, both mentally and financially, so that they can sell us the same old bullshit over and over again.
DAMN THIs , the psychological impact of preying on peoples inability to comprise their own thoughts and make their own decisions is soo evil on a scale that it impedes peoples growing/making a better person.
Eat less meat, especially beef. In terms of environmental impact, beef is far and away the biggest. It demolishes the impact of pork and chicken. I'm not telling anyone to go vegan. I don't think that's sustainable (lololo). Most vegans go back to meat at some point. It is far easier and realistic to just reduce your meat intake.
I'll have steak once every few months now but other than that, pork and chicken are perfectly good substitutes. Steaks are the only thing that is tough to replace, but hamburgers, meatballs, all the other stuff? Very easily subbed by other things.
Nixing animal products from use.
Go vegan!
Eating less meat.
Quite simply choosing to be vegan is one of the most ethical decisions I've made. Every day on average this decision saves the planet:
1,100gal water
45lbs. of grain
30sqft of forest
10lbs of CO2
1 animal's life
If the resource based ethical decision isn't easy enough to make, make the environmental one. If that doesn't get you let animal sentience and factory farming get you there. Still not enough? It's healthier and the food is still bomb. Don't believe me? I hate salad but lentil curry, lentil crab cakes, peanut butter coconut tofu stir fry, pad thai, or the vast majority of veggie soups and fruit related things are where it's at.
Going vegan, why do we still slaughter and kill animals when we have lots of options?
Eat less meat. Not NO meat. I'm a vegetarian, but I tell friends who give me the "I feel so guilty" bit that they don't have to just stop completely. But they have to eat LESS. It's bad for animals, people, water systems, the rainforest. It's a horrible industry doing a lot of harm and we could put tremendous pressure on it to improve if we just all ate LESS meat.
Go vegan. Even if you dont care about the animals, were running out of forests and water because is used to farm animals for human consuming
Go vegan.
Go Vegan.
Go vegan. Save the animals, save the world.
Reduce meat consumption, particularly beef. I'm not saying you should to go vegetarian completely, just cut back a little. Maybe try going meatless one or two days a week. Mass animal agriculture is really, really bad for the environment and small changes on a large scale would help.
Changing the stigma on sex workers. If you watch porn and climax to it, you shouldn't be offended if someone you love or know is a porn star or was once a sex worker. We should try to change this stigma that you're a dirty person for working/having worked in the adult entertainment industry. Same goes for all sex workers- porn stars, strippers, prostitutes, cammers, etc.
What would the benefit of this be?
Stigmas and notions that protray topics, such as sex work, negatively usually put the people in those industries in more dangerous situations. Pulling back these negative views can help open up the floor for women (or men) who work in the industry to come forward and get the help they need instead of being suppressed by social stigmas. Just like with Marijuana getting a sudden, more positive change in tone in more and more social situations. Sex work is in the same category and needs more light shed on it to find out what may be hurting people in these industries and what might be just completely harmless.
We need to stop eating meat at the rate we do if we want to continue living on this planet.
Stop blaming personal unhappiness/anxiety and dissatisfaction with whoever is in political office.
Being vegetarian. I guess it's fun to say you like bacon and shit on vegans for being annoying (in reality, almost every vegan I know never tells anyone unless someone annoyingly asks "HEY WHY NO MEAT ON YOUR PLATE"), but factory farming is literally killing the planet. Cows contribute more greenhouse gasses than automobiles, and for the most part, humans don't need the protein from animal meat. The protein from plants is more than enough.
Plus, if you've ever seen a happy chicken or cow, how could you? Like really. If you had to slaughter and cut it yourself then cook it, would you even bother? Or would you cut out the middle man and go straight for the plant protein?
Eat vegetarian every once in a while. I don't want to give up meat and I won't ask others to, but good god people you don't HAVE to eat meat with every meal. The environmental impacts of the meat industry (and on your health if you're someone who eats red meat all the time) are pretty negative.
I try and eat a few veggie meals a week--it also helps you get a bit more creative in your cooking or in the types of restaurants you seek out.
Eat less meat.
Become vegan! Stop buying meat, fish, eggs, anything dairy. All these products come from suffering.
Not eating animals.
Stop having animals killed for your pleasure.
Stop raising animals for the purpose of slaughter
Stop giving money to corporations that add nothing meaningful to our society or cultures in regards to innovation or service, or harm our environment in selfish/profitable ways.
Wal-Mart Applebee’s Chili’s Coors low end brands Anheuser-Busch low end brands McDonalds Burger King Nestle
That’s just a few that get very little of my money.
Being vegan or at least stop saying "found the vegan".
This is gonna be hard for yall to admit, but we gotta eat less meat
Start by not asking Reddit how to live.
Oh God here come the vegans
Eat fewer animal products. I know not everybody thinks animals matter, for some reason, but you can't argue that eating/killing an animal that can feel pain and pleasure doesn't hurt it.
We kill something like 56 billion animals a year. It's the largest holocaust (in the original definition of the term) in the history of our planet that we know of. Animal agriculture is TERRIBLE for the environment.
I know I'm going to get a lot of "yes, but..." and outright denial, but COME ON. Take your ego out of it and just do what you know is right.
Eating animals hurts them (duh), and it's usually not necessary.
Eat less beef. You don't even have to give it up completely. Beef is among the greatest contributors to global warming because they produce so much methane. So let's just reduce the demand for beef.
going vegan
Eat way less/no meat or dairy. Factory farming is cruel beyond imagination, it's horrendous for the environment, and only cheap due to subsidies.
Also, generally don't be an asshole. Easier said than acted for a lot.
Love you, peeps!
Eat less (or no) animals.
Don't eat meat
Go vegetarian!!!!!! volunteer! Use less waste! Shop local!
Go vegan?
Veganism.
Not consuming animal products should be the top comment here but the problem is most people are only willing to make these ethical life choices if there is little inconvenience or effort required, like just buying a reusable water bottle rather than buying a new bottle every day. Slaughtering over 50 billion animals a year is terrible enough by itself but the impact of the livestock industry on the environment is catastrophic. Animal agriculture is one of the leading causes of greenhouse emissions, a major cause of deforestation and most of the world's crops are actually fed to animals, while millions of humans starve. Not to mention the suffering of all of these animals. Everybody loves animals but apparently not many people love them enough to leave their body parts off their plates. So please, buy less plastic, don't drive your car so much, these are all important things. But unless people understand the destruction and suffering caused by the meat, dairy and other livestock industries, and choose to stop supporting these, then the planet is in big trouble.
Veganism.
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How have you not seen this? I looked briefly below and at least three..,
Okay I'll delete mine
Not sure if this is considered ethical, or just practical:
Eat less meat!
You don't have to go full vegan or vegetarian. Just eat less meat. It's expensive, so you'll save money. It's incredibly wasteful, so you're helping the environment. Enough food is grown right now to feed everyone on the planet. But we take half of that food and feed it to other animals so we can eat them later. Those animals also consume enormous amounts of fresh water, while producing methane and animal waste.
~~Go vegan~~
Cut back a bit on your meat and dairy intake. Make an effort (and be willing to spend a little more money) to buy stuff with labels like "cage free", "free range", etc. Try to do this in a comfortable enough way that you'll be able to sustain this "nice meat" or "low meat" diet for the rest of your life.
Stop causing harm to other sentient beings.
Eat less (or no) meat, fish and animal products. It's better for your health, the environment, and the animals.
veganism
Stop using facebook, for gods sake
Should you become vegan or not is pretty serious ethical choice everyone should consciously made and not rely on default position
Stop breeding. Life is not a gift and there's too many humans for the planet to support.
Stop eating meat and stop buying dirt cheap things that uses slaves to produce their stuff
a lot of you people seem to have mixed up "easily doing things that help everyone" with "sacrificing yourself to help people who are exploiting you". one is ethics, the other is not.
Skip plastic straws and use your own reusable bottles/bags
Reduce your meat consumption. Especially in the US, 80% of antibiotics are used in livestock and it contributes to drug resistant bacteria. There is a climate benefit, and there is generally less suffering in the world.
Stop letting prisoners wait on death row and just kill them already.
After making sure they're actually guilty of course.
Also, try to release innocent prisoners.
A simple smile can make anyone's day. So smile more and frown less.
Eat less meat.
The single most ethical thing we can do - both from a humanitarian and an environmental perspective - is to stop having so many biological children. I mean, let's be real - there are enough of us already, and your genetics aren't that important. If everyone in the developed world had 0 or 1 biological children and adopted or fostered any others they felt the need to have, the world would be a very, very different place.
Abandon your religion, they all establish barriers preventing us from coming together as one.
I'm convinced religion was never designed to go on for this long and in so many forms.
I'm pretty sure humans invented it thousands of years ago because they had no idea why the ground shook, lighting came from the clouds, how plants grew, or why Joe 3 huts over suddenly stopped moving with welts and red stuff coming out of him and we needed some way of explaining these things.
Going vegan.
If I see one god damn person say "go vegan" in here, bktch I swear to God
Think of people both in and outside your circle (country, religion, etc.) as great friends you haven't met yet.
Vote with this in mind, and try to understand how policies will affect you and ALL of your current and potential friends.
Consume less of everything always
Go vegan. Great for the environment, reduces animal suffering, and it's really easy and convenient nowadays to make tasty non-animal-based meals.
Very true. On flip side, only eat meat you hunt yourself. Factory farming is disgusting people, think before you eat that shit.
Great point. Maybe going vegan is too much (and I'm admitting that as a vegan), but, really, ANY reduction in factory farming is a plus in my book. It's unsustainable on multiple levels.
Very true. I find that people that hunt for meat (with trying to reduce factory farming as one reason) generally get along pretty well with vegans and vegetarians. Some people have a hard time because of the killing animal aspect, but seriously what is worse. Me ending a bucks life within a few seconds or a pack of coyotes tearing apart alive. No animal peacefully expires like in Disney films. (Had to throw that quick rant in)
Stop eating meat. For your health, for the animals, but mainly for the environment. Methane from beef production specifically is a far more immediate green house risk to us than carbon from cars.
ctrl f the top comments for "vegan" and you'll realize people don't actually want to be ethical.
Switch to vegetarian or vegan, saves animals, the environment and good for health!
Stop using animal products wherever possible
Please stop having children.
Eat less meat, on the premise of production's toll on the environment.
Reduce or completely remove as many animals products from your life as you can. It isn’t ethical to contribute to the suffering of other sentient beings. It also isn’t ethical to contribute to the destruction of the environment or climate change. If you care about animals, don’t let them die for your dietary choices.
We should be doing our best to report illegal immigrants to ICE
Stop using Keurig cups. Eat less meat. Generate less trash. Be excellent to one another.
Veganism
Just trowing this out there.
Go vegan, honestly, animal agriculture is horrible, there is no hell under the earth, hell is in those places...
By going vegan you are contributing aswell for a more sustainable world, eliminating world hunger, pain, torture, death and suffering.
Go vegan !! For the planet, for the animals, and for your own health.
Shoutout to r/vegan, they have tons of resources just to help you get started.
Also, here are some links to great documentaries about veganism/vegetarianism:
[Cowspiracy](https://www.netflix.com/title/80033772?s=i&trkid=(null)
[What The Health](https://www.netflix.com/title/80174177?s=i&trkid=(null)
Eat plant based.
Having a serious conversation abut your end of life wishes. Get an advanced directive!
Reduce and ultimately eliminate use of animal products.. here's why..
Another Documentary on UK slaughter houses, NSFW
Fossil Fuels
More than a third of all raw materials and fossil fuels consumed in the United States are used in animal production (“Ecological Cooking” by Joanne Stepaniak and Kathy Hecker)
The production of one calorie of animal protein requires more than ten times the fossil fuel input as a calorie of plant protein. (The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition)
Producing a single hamburger uses enough fuel to drive 20 miles and causes the loss of five times its weight in topsoil. (“The Food Revolution” by John Robbins)
Water
Nearly half of all the water used in the United States goes to raising animals for food (“The Food Revolution” by John Robbins). It takes more than 2,400 gallons of water to produce 1 pound of meat and only 25 gallons to produce one pound of wheat (“Water Inputs in California Food Production” by Marcia Kreith)
To produce a day’s food for one meat-eater takes over 4,000 gallons; for a lacto-ovo vegetarian, only 1200 gallons; for a vegan, only 300 gallons (The Vegetarian Times Complete Cookbook)
Animals raised for food produce approximately 130 times as much excrement as the entire human population and animal farms pollute our waterways more than all other industrial sources combined. Run-offs of animal waste, pesticides, chemicals, fertilizers, hormones and antibiotics are contributing to dead zones in coastal areas, degradation of coral reef and health problems. (The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency).
Land
Raising animals for food (including land used for grazing and land used to grow feed crops) now uses a staggering 30% of the Earth’s land mass. (Livestock’s Long Shadow: Environmental Issues and Options, a 2006 report published by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization)
Seven football fields’ worth of land is bulldozed every minute to create more room for farmed animals and the crops that feed them. (The Smithsonian Institution)
Of all the agricultural land in the U.S., 80% is used to raise animals for food and grow grain to feed them—that’s almost half the total land mass of the lower 48 states (“Major Uses of Land in the United States” by Marlow Vesterby and Kenneth S. Krupa)
Air
The massive amounts of excrement produced by livestock farms emit toxic gases such as hydrogen sulfide and ammonia into the air. Roughly 80% of ammonia emissions in the U.S. come from animal waste (The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency).
When the cesspools holding tons of urine and feces get full, factory farms will frequently get around water pollution limits by spraying liquid manure into the air, creating mists that are carried away by the wind. (“Neighbors of Vast Hog Farms Say Foul Air Endangers Their Health,” by Jennifer Lee, The New York Times 11 May 2003)
Air pollutants generated by animal farms can cause respiratory illness, lung inflammation, and increase vulnerability to respiratory diseases, such as asthma. Emissions of reactive organics and ammonia from animal farming can play a role in the formation of ozone (smog) and air pollution (The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency)
Food
In the U.S., 70% of the grain grown is fed to animals on feedlots (“Plants, Genes, and Agriculture” by Jones and Bartlet)
It takes up to 16 pounds of grain to produce just 1 pound of meat. (The Global Benefits of Eating Less Meat by Mark Gold and Jonathon Porritt). Fish on fish farms must be fed 5 pounds of wild-caught fish to produce one pound of farmed fish flesh (“The Food Revolution” by John Robbins)
The world’s cattle alone consume a quantity of food equal to the caloric needs of 8.7 billion people—more than the entire human population on Earth (“The Global Benefits of Eating Less Meat” by Mark Gold and Jonathon Porritt)
Climate Change
Animal agriculture is responsible for 18% of the total release of greenhouse gases world-wide (this is more than all the cars, trucks, planes, and ships in the world combined) (Livestock’s Long Shadow: Environmental Issues and Options, a 2006 report published by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization)
Livestock account for an estimated 9% of global CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) emissions, estimated 35-40% of global CH4 (Methane) emissions and 65% of NO2 (Nitrous Oxide) emissions (Livestock’s Long Shadow: Environmental Issues and Options, a 2006 report published by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization)
By replacing your “regular car” with a Toyota Prius the average person can prevent the emission of about 1 tonne of CO2 into the atmosphere, By replacing an omnivorous diet with a vegan diet the average person can prevent the emission of about 1.5 tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere. That’s 50% more CO2 saved! (“It’s better to green your diet than your car”, The New Scientist, December 17, 2005.)
In addition to all of the above, let’s not forget that the expansion of livestock farming is one of the key factors leading to deforestation in parts of the world such as Latin America and posing a significant threat of the Earth’s biodiversity. Our Oceans are not being spared either and over-fishing is having a devastating impact on our marine ecosystems. This is not just a problem that impacts our planet, it’s a humanitarian crisis. Our demand for animal based products is diverting precious resources like land, water and fossil fuels to produce farmed animals instead of feeding the estimated billion + people that are malnourished in the world.
We can all start working on sustainable alternatives or attempt to make sustainable choices as a solution to this problem, but the easiest solution is the elimination of the demand for animal based products. Switching to a plant-based lifestyle is the only long term solution that not only benefits the environment, but also the animals and our health.
HEALTH
Recent evidence from large prospective US and European cohort studies and from meta-analyses of epidemiological studies indicates that the long-term consumption of increasing amounts of red meat and particularly of processed meat is associated with an increased risk of total mortality, cardiovascular disease, colorectal cancer and type 2 diabetes, in both men and women. The association persists after inclusion of known confounding factors, such as age, race, BMI, history, smoking, blood pressure, lipids, physical activity and multiple nutritional parameters in multivariate analysis. The association has not always been noted with red meat, and it has been absent with white meat. There is evidence of several mechanisms for the observed adverse effects that might be involved, however, their individual role is not defined at present. It is concluded that recommendations for the consumption of unprocessed red meat and particularly of processed red meat should be more restrictive than existing recommendations. Restrictive recommendations should not be applied to subjects above about 70 years of age, as the studies quoted herein did not examine this age group, and the inclusion of sufficient protein supply (e. g. in the form of meat) is particularly important in the elderly.
Processed meat is considered to be any meat which has been modified in order either to improve its taste or to extend its shelf life. Methods of meat processing include salting, curing, fermentation, and smoking. Processed meat is usually composed of pork or beef, but also poultry, while it can also contain offal or meat by-products such as blood. Processed meat products include bacon, ham, hotdogs, sausages, salami, corned beef, beef jerky, canned meat and meat-based sauces. Meat processing includes all the processes that change fresh meat with the exception of simple mechanical processes such as cutting, grinding or mixing.
IARC at the World Health Organization classifies processed meat as a Group 1, carcinogenic to humans, since it has found sufficient evidence that consumption of processed meat by humans causes colorectal cancer.
WORLD HUNGER
Instead of using our resources in the most energy-efficient way possible by growing plants to feed directly to people, we currently use our dwindling land and water to grow grain to then feed to animals who we then eat, giving us considerably less bang for our resource “buck.” By some estimates, we could feed 1.4 billion additional people simply by giving up beef, pork, and poultry in the United States. Think of what we could do if the entire world gave up all animal products!
HUMAN COST
Palm oil is bad too!
Eating less meat. The farming industry is seriously messed up, not only as an environmental polluter, but also a huge ethical concern against the treatment of animals.
That's also a side effect of us breeding too much. Having more kids than you can fit in a minivan is just irresponsible. If we didn't have so many people, factory farming wouldn't be as necessary.
No, it's more down to our lifestyle and diet choices. It would be fine if people ate less meat, or none at all.
STOP BREEDING
Finish high school, get a job, and don't have kids until you are married. In the US, this is an almost fool-proof way to avoid living in poverty.
Being vegan.
Joining a union. Not doing so allows capital to further exploit labor.
Every time I've had to be a member of a union they did nothing for me, were more than happy to collect my dues and wouldn't even enforce the contractual agreement terms the employer was more than happy to break when convenient.
Totally believe you.
Because unions are only ever forces for good?
When I worked retail I had to be a union member, no choice in the matter. I made minimum wage and there was no opportunity to earn a raise. When the store manager signed me up for shifts that were close enough together- you're supposed to get 12 hours between full shifts at least- the union didn't do shit to back me up. So instead I was working till 1 AM and then my next shift was at 6 AM. I did it, because no one else would, but the union was fucking worthless.
They were more than happy to talk about how greedy the owners of stores that operated at around a 1% profit margin were though.
Unions are democratic organizations. You and co-workers just suck.
Have less kids, consider adoption
Everyone should be an organ donor. Irrelevant of what you’re faith is. You’re dead, you don’t need the organs anymore! Same goes for donating blood. I know here in Canada there are some pretty wacky strict rules around it, but still every one who qualifies should be donating as aften as they can!
Go Vegan!!!
Go vegan.
Consuming less meat and dairy! Or better yet, not consuming any at all!
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I considered that once.
Invest in our children, not guns.
What if I invest in a gun for my kid?
Cut down animal product consumption. Billions of innocent animals die and are put in horrible conditions because of us.
Stop reproducing!
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Stop attacking people you disagree with
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I'm not
What a loser.
Lol
Lol
I was looking for the vegan post. Annoyingly i couldnt find it so i sorted by controversial and yours was top. Do you not think you could have helped the cause better by wording yourself more positively? Do you think “weak pieces of shit” helped to influence anyone for the better? My assumption is that your choice of words only increased the defiance of some people.
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It's methodology. Let's try. A) "excuse me. could you please help me with something quickly?" B) "hey cunt! yeh you fuck face. help me with this you piece of shit". You're helping no one when you speak like that. Gary Yourofsky doesn't speak like that. he's unapologetic and forthright but he doesn't call the people he's talking to weak pieces of shit because he understands that it's a waste of breath.
I'm just having some fun. If carnies want to get their panties in a bundle over a few F bombs maybe they need a therapist to go with all the dead body parts they like to deep throat
they don't seem to be the ones swearing and appearing angry. it doesn't sound like you're having much fun with it though. and you shouldn't be having fun. there are billions of animals being slaughtered every year and you undermined veganism and their plight by attacking people.
It's not like y'all would consider being vegan anyways so why should we bother being nice to you
Were you born vegan?
Yes he was. You're born vegan and forcefed flesh.
actually you're born consuming breastmilk. i asked the question because anyone who did eat meat and became vegan understands that non vegans can be converted to veganism. are you with me now? not even gary yourofsky uses the language that "weak pieces of shit" guy used. gary if forceful and unapologetic which puts people on the back foot and honest people are willing to see the message. when you attack people as you make you're point, you're just not helping your own cause. it's very simple and i'm sure you'd acknowledge that in pretty much every other aspect of life. It's simple. do you want people to change their behaviour or do you just want to get the anger of your chest for a few glorious moments?
This isn't my thread, but why should people cater to the feelings of meat eaters? This is a tactic used to silence an opinion that people are against. The question is what should people be doing to be better people.killing animals is something no one should be doing.
and i responded to the person who made the post by giving some advice about communication methods. this isn't catering to the feelings of meat eaters. this is trying to help veganism. do you care more about spreading veganism or venting?
What does that have to do with it?
because if you ate meat at any point, you'll appreciate that non vegans can listen. that's how veganism has grown.
No I wasn't born vegan, but trust me, meat eaters never fucking listen no matter what you say or how you say it, because they are too selfish and apathetic to give a shit about anything but themselves. I deal with meat eaters every fucking day, so I know this first hand. Why would they listen? Then they have to give up their precious bubble of never having to think about their consequences and self-indulgement. It never ends.
You have some fucking nerve as a non-vegan telling ME how to convert people. After seeing the depths of selfishness and stubbornness that meat eaters are capable of, I am done with being nice and catering to meat eater's sensitivities. It simply doesn't work. Nothing does.
If you actually cared you would be vegan regardless, because making animals suffer because YOU got your fragile feelings hurt is childish and petty.
Go through my history. I am vegan. And seeing as you were once a non vegan, you're proof that non vegans can listen. That's all i'm trying to say. It sounds like your feelings are fragile by the extent of your message. Veganism is on the rise so meat eaters can listen. Calling someone a weak piece of shit as you try to make an argument is counterproductive. it's that simple. it's not about sensitivities or feelings. it's about thinking before you speak.
you are proof that non vegans listen
I am an exception, not a rule. Sorry not sorry but unlike 99% of meat eaters I actually had an open mind and gave a shit about something besides myself, so I became vegan. I am telling you again that meat eaters do not listen, that's why meat consumption is increasing worldwide. http://www.worldwatch.org/global-meat-production-and-consumption-continue-rise-1
Veganism is not increasing, or at least it's not increasing at a rate that changes anything. Stop lying to yourself.
Meat eaters are going to continue in their selfish ways, and nothing will ever change that.
meat consumption is increasing because china's economy is growing. we'll have to end this conversation because we're clearly not going to see eye to eye. You're labelling meat eaters as unable to open their minds and that puts all meat eaters in the same group while i see all humans as individuals with their own individual levels of "stuckness". meat eating is embedded within our society so it's expected to take effort and time to change them. but i think you're being closed minded to this. did me accusing you of close mindedness help my effort to convince you or elicit your own natural human self defence mechanism? rhetorical. bye
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It's not, multiple health organizations have proven time and time again that a vegan diet is healthy. You eat meat because you're a selfish fuck who likes to shove meat and cheese into your stupid fucking fat mouth. Just admit that and move along.
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You see the pointy teeth in your mouth? Those are used for eating meat.
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The reason humans are so prevalent is because we're versatile. We're not carnivores, so we have no reason to be specialized to eat only meat. We're not herbivores, so we have no reason to be specialized to eat only plants. Our bodies use a mixture of two ways of life to allow us to survive in the largest area possible.
Lolol "going against evolution" 😂 Maybe one of the stupidest appeal to nature fallacies I've seen. Donuts, chocolate cake and sugar taste good too, must be good for you right? Meat has been proven time and time again to NOT be good for us, given that saturated fat and cholesterol intake directly causes heart disease.
Lol. Yeah someone who grew up in western culture where everyone eats meat and it's never portrayed as a bad thing is a selfish fuck. I've never met s vegan irl and the idea of eating meat had never been raised as an issue for me. It's not something I've thought about and I've never been confronted with the issues as to why I should be a vegan, but yeah guess I'm a selfish fuck, jesus you alone have put me off looking more into this as a way of life, can't stand the idea of dealing with people like you, I've heard people complain about vegans but holy fuck I thought they were exaggerating..
Oh whatever. It's MY fault you don't care about animals. Sure buddy. That's just a gaslighting technique because if you really cared about anything but yourself, you would do it anyways because it's for the sake of animals, the earth, and other people, not for a vegan that hurt your fragile feelings. It's not like you would ever consider being vegan anyways.
I do care about animals and other people so it's safe to say I care about more than myself. It's not your fault that I won't be come a vegan but you've given me a very negative view on vegans from the get go. Talking in absolutes and attacking people who think differently to you, really not my type of people and a significant lifestyle change would mean seeking out other who do the same and you're really not doing a good first impression. I don't have fragile feelings and you don't have that great a sway if what I'll decide but these have never been very big issues for me as they are not big social issues where I live. I don't have strong feelings either, giving up meat and animal products would be crazy difficult for me so it's a big task, you're not doing anything to make that seem worth it.
"Who think differently than me", you mean people that pay money to have animals tortured and killed? Has it ever occurred to you that we get so worked up because how we treat animals is absolutely abhorrent, and the best justification you people can give is "well... bacon tho :("?
If I don't have sway over you then why are you acting like a whiny child? "Wahhh, you're turning me off from being a vegan" is all I'm hearing. If you just needed genuine help I would be more than happy to but if you're just going to give me shitty excuses I'm not going to coddle you, nor should I.
"It's not an issue where I live". Bitch. I live in Texas. Texas is absolutely obsessed with meat and cheese. We're the number one exporter of beef in my country ffs. Don't give me that. Just because everyone else is doing a bad thing doesn't mean you get to too.
It's really not that hard to give it up. There's tons of delicious vegan food out there, and your taste buds change. You just have to actually think about something other than yourself. You can't claim to care about animals and pay people to slit their throats. Goodness forbid you "care about" your family in the same way.
"Who think differently than me", you mean people that pay money to have animals tortured and killed? Has it ever occurred to you that we get so worked up because how we treat animals is absolutely abhorrent, and the best justification you people can give is "well... bacon tho :("?
Yeah not a great idea when trying to push your ideals to lump everyone into a single group. I've never used the fact that bacon or any other meat tastes nice as a good reason not to be a vegan, putting words in my mouth is just doing worse for your argument.
If I don't have sway over you then why are you acting like a whiny child? "Wahhh, you're turning me off from being a vegan" is all I'm hearing. If you just needed genuine help I would be more than happy to but if you're just going to give me shitty excuses I'm not going to coddle you, nor should I.
Lol, im not acting like a child buddy, more than happy to? You were figuratively screaming at people in comments about eating meat and coming across super hostile, get your mental state together before trying to convince people of these issues or all you're really doing is harming the vegan movement.
"It's not an issue where I live". Bitch. I live in Texas. Texas is absolutely obsessed with meat and cheese. We're the number one exporter of beef in my country ffs. Don't give me that. Just because everyone else is doing a bad thing doesn't mean you get to too.
I don't know what point your trying to make here..clearly it is an issue where you are from because of how big meat exports are? I said its not an issue where I live, as in there are no groups going for or against veganism, its just not a social issue that anyone brings up ever, hence why I have no strong opinions on it.
It's really not that hard to give it up. There's tons of delicious vegan food out there, and your taste buds change.
Great that sounds promising.
You just have to actually think about something other than yourself.
Now you've ruined it. Why even add this? Just because I eat meat doesn't mean I'm automatically a selfish asshole, I have friends and family I care about a girlfriend I love and a pet dog. Just because I eat meat doesn't mean I only think about myself, stop making extreme statements if you want to be take seriously.
ou can't claim to care about animals and pay people to slit their throats.
Yes, yes I can, because not all animals are the same. My dog is different to a wild fox or rabbit. A horse is different to a cow or sheep. They are different animals with different social ideas about how to treat them so its very easy to care about some animals and not others.
From your comments and other vegan comments in this post it seems like its more important for vegans to put people down and make themselves feel superior than it is change minds.
You seem to have absolutely no idea how to go about convincing someone who starts with a different opinion of you. Your assumption that someone who eats meat is automatically a selfish, animal hating murderer is going to really put off people who are neutral on the topic.
If the whole world went vegan tomorrow the economy would collapse and there are regions in the world where only began humans would have an overall negative impact on the environment/animals living there
They said the same thing about the horse and buggy.
Why is the meat industry exempt from having to adapt to changing markets?
Make me nerd
https://youtu.be/BrlBSuuy50Y
Eh food is good. I can’t afford to be vegetarian or vegan.
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Enjoy not enjoying the culinary world
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Is eating not pleasurable to you? If so I’m glad I’m not you 😂😂 If you can’t enjoy food what’s the point of eating?
No.
Pathetic
Let’s eat vegans instead.
Fucking try psychopath
LOL murder is funny XD
Ironic...
Ironic that you think you are a good person when you pay for animal abuse
No where did I say that I was a good person
The weak part was ironic
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practices normal diet
piece of shit
Damn you must think you're really edgy
How?
weak pieces of shit
Yeah? Choosing taste over morals is pretty weak.
So is lack of protein
That's not healthy for everybody you stupid fuck.
Edit: replaced sustainable with healthy because that's what I meant.
It's sustainable for people who have access to grocery stores so stop being a piece of shit
Yes it is, a lot cheaper actually
Not according to the world health organization (WHO) Vegan diet is healthy for all stages of life including pregnancy.
I've literally seen reports of people trying to go vegan, actually wanting to. They take their vitamins and they still feel ill. This goes on for about 6 months and they go off the wagon and feel healthy again. I'm sure most people can do it, I'm just saying it's not an option for some.
Also I was only rude because the original commenter was a piece of shit.
Yeah I'm sure your personal anecdotes are more reliable than the countless peer reviewed studies and academic journals that say the opposite. My bad.
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Why is it a shitty thing to push on people when you just acknowledged that it would be more environmentally sustainable?
Actually, your almond butter and soy choices are using as much if not more water, growing space and other issues. It is quite even between meat eaters and non-meaters
That isn't true at all. Why lie when we can all use Google.
BS do your research.
Hunting is part of population control what do you say about that
It’s better than getting factory farmed meat for sure. But still causes more suffering than vegetarian diets.
I say catch/neuter/release is more ethical than fucking murdering for fun. Fuck hunters and fuck animal abusing apologists
Take your time, do research, wait if you have to, don't give up power for convenience, have an open mind, listen, question, learn, lean when its needed and follow when its needed.
Participation in the skeleton war. Please keep your bones intact!
Help other people. Once a day do something nice without anyone asking and don't expect anything in return. You'll benefit more than the person you helped.
Assume everyone automatically deserves your respect, unless they've proven otherwise.
Vote for the good of all, not just for ourselves.
Reconnect with nature. We will never truly be happy until we do.
Organ donation, everyone should do it!
Don't be a dick.
Try to eat more seasonal and local food to lessen the carbon footprint of your food. This isn't just meat but veggies too
These websites can give ideas on where to start
http://www.eattheseasons.co.uk
http://www.eattheseasons.com
There are several websites that let you offset your carbon emissions.
Whether or not you are willing and able to actually pay, they'll give you a breakdown of your carbon footprint.
For us, eating less meat and more local produce was a big and pretty easy step!
don't cheat others, act honorably, strive to make this world more egalitarian, improve the lives of those around you and those that will come after you
Stop focusing only on short-term benefits so that we don't screw over our future selves and the generations to come
At the very least there is no excuse to keep buying battery eggs.
I probably came too late to post this, but don't be corrupt.
We always complain of our politicians but I have almost never met anyone who hasn't given a bribe to avoid a problem.
Pay attention to the companies you buy from. Once you learn about them you'll start making choices of your own. One thing I've done is changed most of my clothes shopping to second hand stores. When I do buy new clothes it's because I need something nice and I've saved so much money on my second hand wardrobe I don't mind spending extra on something I know is ethically made.
Puff puff pass
Stop refusing my right to a rematch in DragonBall Fighterz. Just because you finally got one win out of three, keep playing.
Be honest.
Not killing each other.
Don’t just think of yourself, practice having the ability and foresight to think about how your actions will affect not only the people you know, but strangers too.
Stop recycling. It's worse for the environment than just throwing things away, and leaves people feeling like they "did their part."
Instead focus on using as few single use products as possible. Own reusable waterbottles, have your own bags to bring to the store, and composte as much as you can.
don't demand hugs of people who don't want it.
this applies to grandchildren, casual acquaintances, etc
Use no plastic, try not to use any fossil fuel for transportation or heating, stop buying clothing according to fashion, have as little as possible and only replace when needed, have no children, go vegan, eat local, live in smaller homes (as in 250 sq feet/person), don't have pets, don't waste food.
Don't be complicit in factory farming. Its got to be up there with the worst evils of our time.
Fact checking. It’s easy to assume information we find on the internet is the complete picture, but a little research can go a long way.
Man, I read an article talking about how fucked we are and that mass extinctions and human migrations are expected in 2050!
At this point folks, we need to forward with our habits and behaviours and do every. fucking. thing. to be better to this planet. For our own sake.
Great thread here.
Concious self awareness of our impact on the Earth and the people/animals around us.
So I have this vision I want to share with you all: When you go to a bathroom with a manual paper towel dispenser, like the kind you pump, leave a bit hanging out after you're done. That way the next person who comes through can use that little bit to avoid touching the little pump lever after they've already washed their hands. If EVERYONE does this, we're gonna have cleaner hands, people! Thinking of the next guy in line is an easy, small, ethical thing we can all do.
I mean, saving the world through not using plastic is nice and all, but that's hard. Clean hands is easy.
Traveling abroad and seeing how “green” other countries are, made me realize the US is pretty shitty.
Reducing our animal product intake to reduce our carbon footprint
Be mindful that everyone around you is a person with beliefs, values, motivations, and experiences that, to them, are just as valuable as yours are to you.
Our society needs to remember grace.
Don't support the World Cup 2022 of football in Qatar.
Just don't. It's completely fake, corrupt and bribed . Fuck them
Stop thinking “well everyone else is doing it”
All you have I know is one person that isn’t, it’s you. And that’s the only person you should need.
Consider if you want to spend vast amounts of time with a group of friends who do nothing beneficial/positive for themselves or others; spend their time doing more harm than good.
Stop Littering!
Avoid driving as much as you can. "But BZH_JJM, I live in a collection of suburbs where I have no choice but to drive!"
In that case, go to your local planning/zoning department and tell them you support ways to reduce the necessity of driving, such as transit-oriented development.
Drive with a group mentality.
When you're on the highway don't think about being stuck in traffic, you are traffic. So drive with the intention to help the people you share the road with. Make space and give others the right of way.
It's a good feeling when somebody is about to cut you off and you can move out of the way instead of getting pissy. Makes me feel like im doing my part so we all get home safely.
I have a slightly unconventional one:
Perform one or a few good deeds. Doesn't matter what, something you'd consider good and ethical. No don't tell anyone about it. Not your friends, your parents, don't post it on the Internet. Nothing. Just keep living your life knowing that you did some good even though no one else might be aware of it.
We need to cut back on meat consumption. Factory farming is a real environmental issue.
Bring your own travel mug or tumbler to the coffee shop. Billions of disposable cups go into landfills every year. And no, disposable cardboard cups are not recyclable, as they are coated in polyethylene to make them waterproof.
Also, the plastic cups and straws used for cold drinks can be recycled in most jurisdictions. You just have to rinse them out.
At the very least reduce your consumption of red meat (beef). It's ~30x more environmentally damaging than chicken. It's not sustainable to eat anymore at the levels we do.
Consume as little palm oil as possible
Drive right, pass left
The industry for ALL animal products needs serious reform.
Meat? Absolutely. Eggs? Good lord, yes. Milk? An industry using an apparatus called a "rape rack" needs to change. And don't even get me started on animal testing.
triggered vegetarian out
Never order clams of you are not on the coast
Bring your own reusable mug and avoid the paper with plastic lid. Most often the cups aren't recyclable due to the inner lining, and although the plastic lid can often be recycled, it's rare for there to be a recycling bin nearby when you're done with the cup so the whole thing usually ends up in a landfill.
Don’t be a cop out, invest your money in what you love and believe in.
Eating less meat funds less animal abuse and helps reduce your carbon footprint more than any other preventative measure you as an individual can make.
Stop using potable water to flush toilets.
Seriously, you're literally pissing away valuable purified drinkable water.
Use rain-water collection, grey water, or literally anything else.
Do it - I know you won't.
Take a stand for someone not directly related to you even if it means getting hurt in the process
Don't litter.
Recycle as much as you can.
Do something for charity, weather it be donating or running a marathon.
Help the homeless, weather it be giving money or food to them.
Don't buy animal tested products.
Go back to using glass bottles and jars.
Recycle - even if your local government ends up sending half of the material to the landfill, recycling has created jobs
Become civically engaged. Learn about your local, regional, state, and national political system. Learn who does what, who has what powers/responsibilities, who's using their power well, and who's abusing their power.
Educate yourself on the issues. Educate yourself on the politicians and the voters. Educate yourself on taxation, basic economics, other countries, history, and various philosophies of human rights.
Don't mindlessly support a single team. Stick to your values and goals.
Then vote like you mean it.
I know I'm going to get downvotes, but going vegan would help, in terms of being good to ur body,animals and the environment.
Don't Flame me plez...
Try to see the world through the other person's viewpoint before attacking or dismissing their ideas.
Bulk or cut?
Don’t. Litter. I swear to god if I see you drop those barbecue flavoured crisps I am gonna bury you in a landfill. That’s right. Walk to the bin. Put the bag in. Well done! You just did a good deed and it took you gasp would you look at that?!? 3 SECONDS!
Use/buy renewable energy sources when you can! Obviously this isn't an option for everyone due to various reasons, but we - humans on a global scale - need to move towards clean energy. I got a new job and was lucky enough to afford the 100% renewable energy plan and it blew my mind how much CO2 my power usage would generate with coal (their site offers a neat little "how much CO2 you avoided this year" for your account).
Not everyone can do this, but install solar panels and wind turbines on your house and on your property. They pay for themselves long-term, and it's super cool knowing you will still have power even if the world ends and the power goes out.
Seriously, you don't have to eat meat. No, eating vegetarian food once a month doesn't make a difference. At least eat veggie food 6 days a week.
Buying clothes that are eco-friendly and don't exploit child labour. Not to say be a hippy, just a lil wary about how our 5 pound shirt was made.
If you want to look after the environment, the four things that you can do that will make an impact are:
-Stop eating meat
-Stop flying
-Drive less
-Get rid of the dog.
Unfortunately for us, that's about all you can do that will make a difference. If you're wondering why Alaska doesn't have winter anymore or why California is on fire, that's largely the fault of oil companies and a lack of regulation, not your own personal shopping habits.
Don’t eat meat.
There really isn’t a good ethical argument for eating meat unless it’s very niche situations like over population of animals or for survival. Animal farms are very unethical, chickens, cows and pigs are groomed to die and live in unfavorable conditions.
We do it because it taste good, humans don’t need meat to survive. In 100 years or less when lab grown meat and meat substitutes are popular we will look back at this time similar to how we look back at slavery.
Also am a meat eater btw.
Vote, ya damn idiots! Those brainwashed boomers are steamrolling our country to straight down to 1% Hell!!
Be more active. Seriously. The amount of people that are capable of walking up some stairs riding elevators when it’s just one flight blows my mind.
Not to be an asshole. Sure it is fun to joke around and whatnot but if you're just a straight up self centered egotistical asshole you should be sent to the colony on Mars asap.
Less serial killing
Reduce reuse recycle!
Stop judging others by the most salient characteristic at that moment, pretty much confirmation bias and framing bias. A person's character is defined across a series of events not just one that you may witness.
Pay for your news.
Really think about how you're treating people in your life, whether it's ghosting them because you're tired/depressed or downloading Tinder because you're upset at your partner and want to "get back" at them.
Just treat people like you want to be treated, with respect and courtesy that should be common.
Don't ghost people, return texts/phone calls, help your friend move, talk it out with your partner instead of ghosting/cheating, call/text/write your mom and grandma, Tell your boss that you appreciate them when they help you out. Just be a good dependable person.
Put your shopping cart back in the cart corral.
You should make ethical choices based on your own reasoning not because someone else told you to.
Just bring your own cup to Starbucks every day and you’re making a big impact. Then make sure everyone around you is doing that too.
Shop Local
STOP BUYING K-CUPS
It’s a small thing but you can send off used printer ink cartridges off in a free post envelope and money will get donated to charity.
I sent off 2 and £5.25 got donated IRRC
It’s only small, but it’s something
at the very least, properly sort your recycling. Seems like Im the only adult I know that does this..
Eating a vegan diet, or at least aiming towards it. Eggs and dairy are not benign animal products, not by a long shot (lots of male baby chicks and calves killed as by products), and this comes from someone who used to love dairy ice cream. Choose kindness.
Also, considering the huge overpopulation problem, not having children or adopting instead would be a good choice.
Buy chocolate from Fair Trade certified companies. About 95 percent of the world's chocolate uses child slave labor or unethical practices to harvest their product.
I haven't knowingly eaten any pork or pork products for 7 or 8 years. I wouldn't say everyone should do it, I just wish more people would get on board and stop taking the piss.
After I found out their IQ is similar to a dogs it put me way off. It's more difficult than you think to just cut out one animal from your diet so I can't even imagine going vegetarian.
Brush your damn teeth.
Use scissors to cut the plastic that hold soda, on milk, and other things if there are holes. Animals will thank you for it later
User name checks out
Go vegan
Eat less meat. If not for the animals, do it for the environment. Every kg of beef takes 15,000 liters of water to make, and the industry is the biggest polluter on Earth when you look at greenhouse gasses.
Skipping a steak is way better for the environment than taking the bike instead of the car, or showering less.
Stop eating meat if you don’t know exactly where it came from and that it was raised sustainably. This one makes lots of people salty - but come on it’s super easy to do, and you getting to taste nice things isn’t as important as not destroying the environment.
Vote Responsibly.
we need to stop buying new. there is so much waste and i do this alot and im sorry but it has to change
Veganism. It's not hard, and it brings huge, positive changes very fast.
Step 1) Stop murdering and stealing from each other.
If you are wasting someones time and you don't see a future, make the rational decision to end that relationship. I see friends get stringed / string along people because they are afraid to be alone. Stay casual if you aren't ready to commit. There is nothing wrong with it, but make sure the other person knows your intentions.
Reusable pads! Healthier for your body (and comfier), and safer for the environment.
Eat less meat and consuming less water/energy is a relatively easy way to help the planet
Not owning large dogs when you live in a small home.
Stop eating meat.
Don't buy anything you don't absolutely need.
Buy quality, responsibly sourced meat wherever possible.
A 20% saving is not justification for a lifetime of suffering for the animal. Just buy the good stuff and eat 20% less meat.
I think eating meat is one of the most natural and human things we can do, but the least we can do is show some respect to the (often intelligent) animals we eat.
Stop scamming people...
Don't buy from shitty companies when possible. Unfortunately that's a lot of them but there's some pretty blatantly awful ones like Nestle.
The issue people run into is "oh but I'm just one person it won't make a difference". And of course, if everyone said that, then you're right. But if enough individuals make the choice, then companies are forced to respond once it starts hurting their bottom line.
don't text and drive.
Give blood , be an organ donor and don't lie intentionally(unless necessary).
One would be to not try and force choices on people who are minding their own business and not hurting anyone.
Stop eating animals and animal products. Nothing about those industries is ethical.
Eating less animal products. Our money is our vote and animal agriculture is killing our planet.
Stop abusing drugs
Eating less meat, eggs and dairy. It’s not just about animal welfare, it is hugely damaging to human health to consume as much intensively reared (and often highly processed) animal products as we do with all the antibiotics, hormones and other contaminants they contain. And it causes great environmental damage also. We don’t all need to be vegan, but a reduction seems to me to be of paramount importance.
Donating to highly effective charities.
Start supporting and buying GMO foods. We can't survive and support a healthy ecosystem without it.
Try to not let food go to waste in your fridge.
Eat less meat, and dairy. Your colon, and the environment will thank you.
Clean your room.
Stop eating and using Nestlé products.
Support your local grocer/hardware store/etc.
I know everyone is into Amazon these days, but think about all of the extra packaging and the emissions generated, not to mention the fact that less support for brick & mortar stores means they'll eventually have to close up shop.
Support high top marginal income tax rates.
High pay does not produce better work, it produces greedier work.
Your life is about who you are, not what you are. If you leave this world having focused on what you were when you came in, you made no impact at any level.
I suppose we could all delete our Facebook accounts.
Share prices are the only thing that matters to companies like this and they will do WHATEVER needed to keep them high
Composting. It sequesters carbon from rotting food into the soil of you do it right.
30 to 1 carbon to nitrogen ratio and add water to keep it active. It should heat up. If starts to smell add more carbon if it's not getting hot add more nitrogen
Here is a quick guide https://www.planetnatural.com/composting-101/making/c-n-ratio/
Basically 3 parts brown and one part green is usually right
Stop using straws
Never kill anyone.
Unless you really really have to.
Never be too afraid to apologize.
I mutually parted with a girlfriend a few years ago and on my way out said something that hurt her. I had forgotten about it for over a year until one night it hit me and I immediately texted her and apologized sincerely and she said she has forgiven me for it a long time ago and I almost cried from joy, which never happens.
The worst that can happen is they stay mad at you, in which case they’re probably not the kind of people you want to be around anyways.
Adopt minimalism. I watched a documentary about it on Netflix and it is actually extraordinary!
Reuse, recycle, eat less meat.
Should you try to be amazing I.e. someone who goes down in history?
When dining in a food court - taking your take-away trash items and putting it in the trash as you leave - rather than leave it to the next person looking for a table or leaving it to a busy cleaner. Too many people don’t know how to pick up after themselves!
Volunteer for something. I did a few times and I'm looking to do it again very soon. Its very fulfilling and there are a lot of good volunteer programs in most cities. Its also a great way to network and it looks good on a resume. Some companies will even give you a paid day off to do it. But the most important thing is, you are helping to make the world a better place. My only regret is that I don't do it more often (I'm working on that).
One more..... be considerate and aware of your surroundings as well.
Stop taking antibiotics for dumbass reasons. You’re basically helping to create the super bacteria race that will wipe us all out.
Don't go to Thailand and pay to take pictures with drugged up tigers, elephants, monkeys etc.
When someone asks you to do something unethical, refuse no matter how small you think it sounds. Giving into small requests shows that you're weak and can be manipulated into doing something worse. This is especially true in the workplace.
This is probably going to be unpopular, but: don't fly to some place just for a fucking weekend, it's really not worth the environmental impact. Aviation emissions are already going through the roof and if everyone takes on our jetsetting way of life we are going to be royally fucked, no matter how many solar panels and windmills we'll have put in place.
Avoid the fast fashion industry. H&M currently has 4.3 Billion dollars in unsold clothes and accessories that it has no idea what to do with. Zara hasn't paid some Turkish workers in over a year and yet its owner is still the 4th richest person on this planet. It's had everything from plea notes sewn into garments to dead rats found in the lining of coats. And it doesn't stop with the factory workers, I worked in retail for over a decade and it's pretty appalling there too, from turnover rates, to break cuts, and pay. Not to mention all it's issues with plagiarism and copy write infringement. Less than 2% of factory workers in the fast fashion industry make a living wage. It creates about 10% of the worlds carbon emissions and is the second largest consumer of water globally.
Honestly. If you see something say something. Alot of ppl stay mum when it comes to uncomfortable situations like someone getting hurt, molested, ect... And alot of times ppl turn a blind eye because "it's not my business." Sad fact is you're right. It's not your business, it didn't happen to you, you're not involved except eyes only.
But how do you see a random person having a seizure on the ground and you walk by then?
How do you hear the screams and cries of your neighbor getting the shit knocked out of them?
Do you ignore that guy who slipped that girl a Mickey?
Like... If you see something say something. If not for you then for that person. This whole head in the sand BS is ridiculous.
Take a look at yourself from the perspective of an outsider and see what needs to change about yourself
We should look at our actions and words in every situation and ask ourselves “Am I being a dick?” If the answer is ‘yes’ then we should change the behavior.
This seems obvious, but lots of people seem to lack this ability.
Eat sustainable seafood. Not shrimp. For every pound of shrimp caught, there are five pounds of other fish caught (bycatch) which is thrown overboard after it has been out of the water too long to survive.
See Ocean Wise for more info.
Reducing consumption of animal products, just based off of the environmental impact the industry has alone.
Not ghost people. It might not always be easy to cut someone off, but in the very least people should let others know they're not coming instead of standing others up
I've gone back to a drip coffee maker. Had a major pod brand for a while. Not only was it a big waste but the coffee even at it's cheapest was still more expensive.
wear pants when you leave the house
Be an organ donor.
Center the material concerns of vulnerable people in your politics.
Educate yourself.
I see so many people today speaking up on issues repeating what they heard another person say. They are forming an opinion on something they have knowledge about. The best way to improve yourself and your life is to understand why things are the way they are. Only after that you should form your opinion and plan to improve based off that information.
Karma is real, reincarnation is real.
Everything else can be assumed in different forms and you'll still be O.k. in the end.
Happiness is gratitude. Which can be had at any moment.
habit is practice. form is function.
If you want to love, when you PERCEIVE anyone or thing, think of it only as yourself.
It's every choice you make, and not just the large or habitual ones.
You have to live a vibration of your knowledge in action.
DONT KILL
be excellent to each other!
Be civilized and stop peeing in the shower.
Want to make you life better and change the world? Walk out your door and be kind. Be truly kind to people. You'll find that it's reciprocated quickly in these times of incivility and inconsideration. Also, it feels good. Be nice to people is like a superpower if you truly mean it.
ITT: low bars
I think one of the most important things we need to do is learn to figure out that over time people change.
For instance, my girlfriend and I are 19 and we have run into situations where either of us think about someone we don't like because of something they did in highschool. I'm no saint here I have still found myself hating on someone I didn't like but I always try to remind myself, and her, that not everybody is the same as they were a few years ago, and that people can grow in even less than a year. I think that's what we all need to to. Learn to forgive and forget I guess
Talk to your partners about your plans to have kids or not early in the relationship.
Find your stance on CRISPR. It’s going to become prevalent in reproductive issues far sooner than you think.
Stop donating money to charities and donate your time instead. We don't know where the money we donate really goes but we'll know where our time is going if we give it. Too many organizations have been caught doing unethical things with donations. On top of that, stop giving money to bums and panhandlers. They need to take steps to bring able to be self reliant but again, if you can, donate your time. There are classes they can take at community centers and there are other resources available to them.
No one should ever give Bayer a red cent.
We need to put an end to people/channels/entertainment figureheads in prominent positions using that position to abuse and manipulate (mainly) children into buying things.
People making hundreds of thousands a month on YouTube etc. by sitting and spending money on MTX, when there main subscriber base is children, inciting envy, jealousy and incentivising them to spend money on these things (money that they/their parents/ the average person can't afford).
Be kind to people, animals, and the planet.
And by being kind to the planet I mean stop dropping fucking bombs, planting fucking landmines, and sonic blasting the ocean.
Surprised I haven't seen "go vegan".
The animals is such a small part of it. It's better for the environment. For humanity. For yourself...
Everyone benefits.
It's on here several times
Cruelty free make up.
Not letting our consumer and Media choices reward shitty human beings.
Give people the benefit of the doubt. Everyone is just trying to do the best they can with what they have.
Not buying Nestle or Coke anything
But that's legit hard, man
Eat just a few less hamburgers a month. Nobody should tell you to stop doing/having something you love but think about the wordwide consequences of your action.
A little less beef, a little less cows needed, a little less land needed = more forests, less habitat destruction, less CO2 emissions
Multiply this by the number of people who just do “a little less” a month, and then by 12. We could make a real difference
Recycle. It's seriously not that hard and helps a little bit. If everyone did it, that little bit would turn into a lot. Doesn't require any significant change in lifestyle either
this thread is so full of wholesome things to make our environment better. maybe the future won't suck after all.....
Go Vegan
Admit when you’re wrong. Work to avoid the same mistake again.
Be kind to others. Stop comparing yourself to others.
Listen without thinking what you’re going to say next.
Share what you have. Don’t be jealous of what others have.
Make time to play. Get a good night sleep.
Put the phone down and look at the world around you. There is nothing out there that you’re missing by being present here.
Make something: a painting, a song, a burrito. Something! Stop judging others and start contributing content.
Call the oldest person you know. Listen to what they have to say.
Basically kindergarten.
Treat people how they wish to be treated or leave them alone. Don't expect everyone to act and think like you.
Mindfulness of where the shit we buy is from. Look into brands that have ethical conditions for their workers. Doesn't matter so much to me what country it's from as long as the people who made it are in a safe, livable pay work environment.
Reduce meat consumption. Nobody wants to hear it, but it is one of the best things you can do for the environment, your body, and of course the animals.
Become an organ donor & register to vote.
its funny. i keep seeing people who want to 'pitch in', but they are afraid of looking 'gay' or something.
you will be the first to go into the soylent green machines.
If we're going to recycle, let's get serious!
Radon testing your home. More people die from radon related deaths than drunk driving.
Eat local and ethically raised food. Start a garden, go to farms and meet the farmers and see how they raise their meat (if you eat meat), take cooking classes so you can utilize in season foods.
Tomatoes are my favorite food in the world, but I shouldn’t be able to eat fresh tomatoes in December.
To consider other people's perspectives.
It's easy to be emotional; To hate, be angry and even love. Hell, it's the easiet thing in the world, just letting the floodgates open and being a thrall to your emotions. But it's harder to invest energy into considering others and why they may be feeling, acting and believe what they do from a rational perspective.
If we don't try to understand we'll never advance. Not as individuals, nor as a collective.
Save the oasis save the world
Don't litter.
Be kind to the people in your own life. Stop seeking attention from those who don't care for you and start appreciating the people directly in front of you more.
Look into community gardens if possible, and supporting local farmers by buying their products (again if possible neither of these are possible or reasonable for everyone) Use less plastic packaging (hello reusable grocery bags/glass jars and canisters for bulk items) Look suuuuper carefully into what can be donated (old mascara Wands to some sanctuaries, old clothes and blankets to animal and homeless shelters) and recycled, or composted.
Eat less meat and more vegetarian meals (I eat my steaks blue which I am lucky enough to get from local farms and my own family so don't give me guff about being vegan or vegetarian)
Support women's freedoms to choose abortion, or at least women's choice on birth control ((you know that handy shit that greatly reduces abortions in the first place)) Volunteer at the local old folks home (those cranky old shits love visitors lol)
Lotsa stuff man. Lotsa stuff.
Don't use palm oil (most processed food unfortunately)
Don't buy products that are produced in conflict zones (Soda Stream, Sabra, etc)
If you go on vacation only stay and eat at locally owned established
bds?
Be an organ donor, living or upon death.
Eating sustainable meat.
Industrial agriculture and vegan mono-culture cause a significant amount of greenhouse gasses whereas sustainable agriculture can be a significant carbon sink by regenerating grasslands.
Grow veg, not lawns.
Eat less meat. You don’t need it on every plate you eat.
Choose kindness. Especially when anger or frustration are the dominant forces from within trying to escape you.
Listen.... Hear... then speak. Two (or more) people trying to get their point across almost always both fail because we defend the views we offer. Even if the other person makes stupid points when you let them go first. At least you know how ridiculous too much time spent will be. Offer your view and allow them to react. Then move on with your life.
Enjoy your successes, but remember your failings put you there. Nobody ever got good at anything without fucking up a few times.
Love like you never lost anyone. All relationships end in splits or people’s untimely death. Don’t let the bad times sour the good.
Lastly; Laugh! Laugh a lot. And take nothing too seriously. We don’t get long on this rock. Enjoy yourself while you can.
Don’t shoot up schools
I am one to talk as i have said my fair share of spiteful things but i think people should be a lot more kind to eachother and have more respect. We all out here strugglin in some kind of way and it doesnt make things easier for anyone to push people down further than they already are.
stop eating sugary snacks, soda, chocolate, everything, it is all so unnecessary and sosososo bad for you
Go to regular checkout instead of self checkout and actually converse with a human being instead of deliberately being a curmudgeon.
Talk to people. Especially people who disagree with you. If we knew each other better, most of our problems would dissipate.
Well, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, so what we should all do, is unite together, and overthrow the capitalist bourgeoisie state. That way we can form an anarchist collective an operate at maximum ethicality.
Strive to not be an asshole
We should really not buy products that rely on human slavery and abject animal cruelty, and we should do more to make ourselves and others aware of these types and brands of products.
Just because you can do something legally, or illegally without consequence, doesn't mean that you should do something.
As an example, my students have, more than once, tried to get me to use my .edu email address to get free Spotify premium. I am not a student; I am a professor, and I'm not entitled to that perk. More than once, they have told me, "But, who is gonna know?"
I will know. That's ethics. Choose the right, even when no one else will, and eventually, we'll be a better world.
If you see some kind of exploit in a system, instead of trying to game and abuse it, imagine if everyone in the system were to abuse it the same way as you and how bad things would be.
Example: parking at a gas station. People park all the time at the pump, and granted alot of people need to pay at the register first. But some people park & pay at the pump, and then leave their car there to walk in the store to buy a drink or snacks. If everyone were to do that, then people would be stuck waiting on a pump who need gas. If you believe on karma, it will happen to you when you're in a hurry.
Stop breathing
Eating plants vs animals
If you make bigger bucks than your s.o then get life insurance. I pay 16 dollars a month and I think it's worth it knowing she has something if I croak or get eloctrucuted
Don't trust the media....
Waste less. It kills me when I see people being wasteful, instead of throwing away a huge plate of food why not just get what you will eat and eat it, don't throw out a 2 year old computer because its not the latest and greatest, tons of people and schools would kill for something less than 5 years old. Recycle your recyclables compost the compostables, even if you don't have a garden someone you know and love has a garden (Also if you are in the right area people will PAY YOU for your recyclables and compost). Stop buying processed foods not only is it bad for you but the packaging and production is so bad for the environment.
Also side note stop wasting time on useless crap, it will make you and everyone around you much happier.
I'm good now.
Sign up to be an organ donor. You're not gonna need that stuff when you're dead.
Not eating meat
I know that y'all are gonna blast me for this.
but eating less meat specifcally ( i mean we should also stop eating so much processed food, sugars, and other shit but thats more for health reasons )
I'm not saying become vegetarian, but the amount of meat that the average person eats is ridiculous. When you go to a restaurant in america it's like every single dish has some form of meat in it. for some reason a meal just isnt a meal to people if there isnt meat in it.
Not only is this unhealthy to be consuming this much meat, but it's totally unsustainable, the industry is incredibly wasteful, and the demand just makes it even worse.
We need to start getting upset at the government for subsidizing corn and not leafy green vegetables. Corn tends to be used in processed foods, and low cost of input to production thus makes really unhealthy processed foods widely available and inexpensive!!!!!
Don't take what doesn't belong to you. From the beach, ocean, forest, fields. Stop stealing all the cool shells and glass and pinecones, etc
Stop feeding the wedding industry!
Donate to causes and organizations that make peoples' lives better. Even if it's a small amount. No only do you make other peoples' lives better, but you can end up feeling better about yourself when you contribute more than "thoughts and prayers" to a cause.
Unless you're donating to a conservative cause. Then fuck off and die.
In my experience, the vast majority of ethical choices to be made in life are the things we decide not to do.
The best guide I can think of that covers most of the basis is simply, try not to be a dick unless someone is being a huge one themselves.
Stop buying chocolate products from non fair trade sources, i.e. Hersey's, Nestle, Cadbury, Godiva, etc. Cacao beans are harvested using child labor, and often slave labor, in West Africa. If the packaging does not specifically say it's fair trade, don't buy it. There are so many incredibly fair trade chocolate brands. A little more pricey, but it's worth it when you consider the stakes.
Hunting for our own food. There are too many of us, and it’s obviously not feasible. But this factory farming is disgusting.
Be honest about your feelings and take responsibility for the fact that you're the one feeling that way.
If you live in the us the only ethical vote in national elections is democrat
Eat less meat, especially beef. We don't need as much as we eat (in the US) and a non-trivial part of bad atmo gasses seem to come from cow butts.
eat less meat.
Logically speaking I agree lol, humans are pretty sucky And it's about time for another world ending catastrophe. But alas, I am as human as the next human, so a bit emotional when thinking of death, and don't particularly enjoy thinking about the worlds end
We need to look more closely at the companies we work for, first and foremost. They make up a huge part of our lives. We need to understand that shitty companies only exist because we give them our energy to continue doing so.
Along the same line, we need to consider from whom we buy our goods. These shops need to treat their employees with respect, particularly when those employees may not have a world of choices in front of them. We need to maintain a high standard for where our ethics and morals stand.
Then we need to look at the products themselves. How was it produced? Is it a overhyped trendy piece of crap or is it really a valuable item? Is it from a company that we want to help to flourish?
Morals and ethics reign supreme.
Stop eating animal products, or at least try to drop it to a bare minimum.
Meat is a #1 class carcinogen (according to the WHO). Animal industry is ducking up the environment, the animals themselves and our health for our taste buds, and our taste buds alone.
Bacon or whatever you fancy isn't worth the damage it's doing to OUR earth and your health.
Choose Free Software & Open Source alternatives to Proprietary software.
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html
My parents are having trouble fitting more stuff into the freezer
Ffs, eat the food you already bought before you buy more!
I believe we should help someone to die if they are suffering with no chance of improvement in their condition.
Stop eating meat. Or less meat. This may be controversial here. But it has a huge impact. It affects things you wouldn't think of like rainforest deforestation. Or antibiotics resistance. Your health. The environment. Water use. Carbon emissions. Definitely something to consider.
eating less/no meat
Cut back on plastic usage as much as humanly possible.
Lower your meat consumption as a general trajectory.
Thinking giving as same taking.
Eating less meat. I'd love to eat less, but I just don't have a lot of choices where I live.
Recycle your cardboard boxes.
My neighborhood has trash dumpsters and recycling dumpsters which are right next to each other in the alley. People still can't be bothered to put their boxes in the recycling dumpster.
I mean probably eat less meat and fish would make a huge difference but for those that love seafood....
There's an app called the msc good fish guide. It's traffic light rated all the fishs sustainability. Red - don't eat it, it's endangered/plummeting stock. Orange - eat occasionally Green - there's loads of it, eat it whenever.
If we all stopped eating fish with plummeting stock we could make a massive difference to their wild populations and help save our marine environments.
Look inward. None of us will be perfect. Period. We all have rough edges due to how we were raised, what we were taught, personal experiences, etc. We all have areas to work on and should be constantly changing.
Stop ignoring science because it's conclusions are "offensive". Fund IQ research. Publish IQ research.
Stop blaming women for rape.
Start a recycling bin and compost bin. Commit to them.
We need to make a few big changes to cut back on carbon emissions.
1) Fly only when absolutely necessary. Plan trips that don't require planes. Aviation is a massive source of carbon emissions, and there's no conceivable technology that will change that. If you can't avoid flying, buy carbon offsets. They're not perfect, but they're better than nothing.
2) Think seriously about whether you can give up your car. This is easier for some people than for others, but if you can switch to cycling, walking, or public transit, then you'll be making a big dent in our personal emissions.
3) Cut back on meat consumption. You don't have to go full vegan, but give up the habit of having meat at every single meal. Treat it as an occasional indulgence, rather than an everyday staple. Especially beef, whose carbon footprint is really huge. Chicken and fish are much better.
If everybody made a serious effort to do these things, we'd buy ourselves a good few decades to fix the other sources of carbon emissions before the real climate crisis hits.
Distancing ourselves from capitalism and consumerism as much as possible.
Leave everything a little better than when you got here. Kinda like how your parents (should have) made your clean up your camp site when you were leaving, even if some of the crap left was from the prior campers. Just do more good than harm.
Lots of things can be recycled that we don't realize
The two big ones right now are Construction & Demolition Debris and Organics (Food). Don't throw them away!
Purchase shampoos and cosmetics and stuff that have a little rabbit on the back label. Animals are not tortured, and it's no extra work and doesnt even have to be more money.
Fashion is the second most polluting industry in the world. Stop buying new clothes. There are so many ways to keep your wardrobe fresh without adding to the staggering amount of clothing on this planet. Clothing swaps are so much fun! My lady friends and I all get together with treats and mimosas and just swap out our stash with each other, its great! There are entire online groups dedicated to swapping clothing. Thrift stores, consignment stores, etc! Its not shameful to buy used, and clothing swaps are free!!!!
to be a dick,
or not to be
Street lights should have a detectors that sense cars to allow a better traffic flow
ohhhhh you mean stop lights
Filling out a health care intiative. Make those decisions so your loved ones don't have to. It makes those very hard situations somewhat easier.
Stop using plastic and being wasteful as much as you can individually....easier said than done though. I use a lot of paper products like plates and such.
Eat less meat. The destruction from cultivating livestock for cheap beef is destroying the environment more rapidly than our advances to reduce our energy footprint.
Don't spread information without being skeptical of it first. Really tear shit apart before spreading it, because you know that many of the people who hear you won't verify any of it for accuracy. Bad information flows way too easily.
There is a great quote by Descartes:
Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have.
In less elegant terms: everyone thinks they are not stupid, even when they are - including yourself. Keep that in mind and cut everyone some slack - including yourself.
Last night, a driver passed me on the road and whammed a rock onto the side of my car... So I’d say not to be an animal on the road.
Treat others the way you want to be treated.
no longer do things that suppor the NFL or NCAA financially. Steal your streams, get your jerseys at goodwill
Donate Blood/ Platelets. This is the original crowdfuned campaign that never will reach it's goal. The American Red Cross has a great app (Blood Donor) for making appointments and shows the journey of your blood from your arm to the recipient facility.
Don't fall for crypto ~~currency~~ commodity.
Biggest waste of power we've ever made. I love the irony that people will go from climate doom and gloom subs right over to crypto coin subs.
the best way for individuals to even attempt to make a dent is DO NOT BY NEW.
second hand cloths and second hand furniture is a great way to save a buck, keep stuff out of landfills, and if you go to the right source you may benefit the poor.
now this next one is basically futile, but you must punish companies that do the most damage to the environment by not buying their products or using their services.
do not fly if you can take the train
do not drive if you can ride a bike
do not buy something made overseas if you can get it locally (food is the big one here)
Lower your heat, take shorter showers, and get LED light bulbs.
clean your recycling and do not put one shred of plastic in the landfill. if its plastic, put it together into the plastic recycling bin.
none of this stuff is a big deal. it will save you money, and it takes like 10 seconds to wash a bottle.
don't be afraid of looking like a 'pussy' or whatever. the hyper macho will be the first to drink the poisoned water, catch cholera, and die. (front lines, car wrecks, and good old fashioned fires are also appropriate venues for those types)
also: never use Styrofoam. if a coffee joint is going to give you coffee in one walk out, and go somewhere else.
p.s. help! i buy stuff online sometimes and i don't know what to do when they send me Styrofoam. i usually save it 'til i get really depressed. then i throw it in the regular trash.
they are talking about 6 feet of ocean rise by 2100. does any of this really fucking matter.
to quote George Carlin, "The planet is fine. The people are fucked." time for earths flea bath
This may be a little different than most of these suggestions, but ethical non-monogamy. People assume because my husband and I are not monogamous that we will sleep with anyone regardless of the situation. No, no, no. Oh you and your girl are "basically" broken up? Great, call me when it's official. Cheating on your wife? Nope, not going to be a part of that.
A lot of people's needs can be solved with open honest communication. If you can't be honest, you need to leave that person and take a deep look at yourself to figure out why you can't be honest.
This should be sticky post on the front page
Focus your energy on how you benefit the world and not how you can benefit yourself. It will make you much, much happier
I would say the best and easiest changes would be to stop using straws, don't buy food containing palm oil, use your own reusable coffee cups and water bottles instead of disposable ones and try and use as little plastic packaging as possible (loose fruit and veg don't need to go in haha in the supermarket...). Also walk, cycle or use public transport as much as possible.
Sign up for organ donation
Drive efficiently.
It doesn't matter what you drive, a gas guzzling sports car or a super efficient hybrid; or even an electric vehicle (generating electricity for most of us produces emissions; unless you're lucky enough to be on a totally renewable 'grid' where you live)
You don't have to drive 30 miles an hour below the speed limit or anything. But you can drive the speed limit, not accelerate hard, not change lanes any more than absolutely necessary, use your cruise control, etc. Small changes can really add up.
Speed is a huge factor. The faster you go, exponentially the more fuel you use. In theory, even on an hour long commute, speeding will only save you a few minutes. Except in reality, it won't save you any time at all, because you'll just speed until you hit the next patch of traffic or pair of 18 wheelers trying to pass each other up a hill at 45mph. (Any trucker will tell you they get passed by the same car over and over again, because you don't actually save any time, you end up getting stuck behind someone anyway). Speeding is totally a mental thing, it makes us FEEL better, but it doesn't actually do anything for us.
Do the speed limit, even 5mph below (doing 5 below can reduce the need to change lanes the pass), and you will save a ton of fuel (good for your wallet) and a ton of emissions (good for the environment).
Other things you can do to go above and beyond speed (though, speed is easy and the biggest difference) include staying on top of tire pressures and keeping them at the car manufacturers recommended pressure, keeping tires rotated (so they wear evenly), keeping excess weight out of your car (i.e., don't drive around with a ton of stuff in your trunk you've been meaning to unload forever). Keeping your car well maintained, etc.
It's amazing how much fuel (and emissions) you can save by just tweaking the way you approach driving, without having to spend a ton of money...
Cashiers, try saying “please” after telling someone the total cost for their order.
My dad told me if I ever become one, I outta do the same. Lo and behold, I’ve been a cashier at McDonald’s for six months and I’m the only one that does it. People’s reactions are pretty positive to it though.
Try and reduce conflict at a minimum level; stop looking at what nations are doing against nations. Asses how you react when you have a problem with your neighbour.
Recycling.
Putting our luxuries aside to help others. On all scales. If you upvote this please do something nice for a stranger today!
Be an organ donor. Or at least be on the list
Save our fucking oceans. Please. Whatever it may be - stop littering, using less plastic, disposing of waste properly, buying only reasonably caught seafood, just fucking do it.
Get our faces out of all the screens in front of us and live life more.
Avoid long distance flights. At least where I live, people seem to think that flying to another continent for leisure at least once every year should be a human right. There’s nothing you can do to reduce your carbon footprint as much as avoiding airline travel.
But I enjoy traveling to places overseas twice a year.
So do I! And since everyone is doing it (again, where I live), nobody wants to talk about it as a problem. Rocks in glasshouses etc...
Stop seeing yourself and people like you as the center of the universe and getting absorbed in the false “problems” that go along with that.
Probably you have actually got a pretty awesome life in the scheme of things and don’t have to deal with any of the awful stuff that affects the vast majority of the world: civil war; endemic mind numbing corruption and waste of limited public resources; little to no chance of meaningful economic change; little to no chance of political empowerment or freedom of expression.
And then recognizing this, start to see what you can do to unpick some of these gross injustices in some small way. Even if all you ever do is take the time to see how lucky you are, how many opportunities you really have, and to make the most of your hand in life - this is a small way to realise that actually, your life is pretty good and you can afford to be a little less self-absorbed, and a little more empathetic for the life of others.
And, it actually feels good too - one the quickest paths out of sadness and depression comes from switching your concern to others. Peace
Caring for each other before the planet.
Quit using straws and buy reusable bags for shopping.
Be an organ donor when death gets you. May feel weird at the time signing it, but you ain't gonna need them then, do you?
A small one, but try to buy as little water as you can. This is obvious for, e.g., bottled water. Three examples I have are sports drinks, beans, and body wash - so you would buy powdered, dry, and bars, respectively. The less water you buy, the less packaging used, the less space it takes up in storage and delivery, and the less weight that needs to be transported per calorie/use. These all translate to less petroleum used, and have the bonus of saving you a lot of money.
Recycling and waisting less food.
Leave places nicer than you found them.
At my work, we have a common kitchen. The state people leave that place in is appalling. Sure, we have a cleaning crew that comes by a couple times a day to clean up, but that doesn't mean it's okay to leave the place a disaster.
Likewise, the number of times I've gone camping and found trash from the previous campers blows my mind. Every time I go camping I bring a couple extra trash bags just because I know I'll end up picking up trash that someone else left.
ethics aren't real
Stop driving so much and just over consuming in general. Unfortunately people are highly resistant to both of those things.
Swallow your semen in order to recycle the sperm, otherwise that's murder
What does ethical exactly mean? What's the ultimate measure if something is ethical or not?
Research charities before donating! Different ones have different impacts. Some are really heart-tugging with photogenic suffering children but aren't actually very good at their goals.
I recommend giving to the Against Malaria Foundation, which is objectively the world's best charity by number of lives saved per dollar. Other options to consider can be found through third-party charity assessment organizations such as givewell.org.
Eat less meat. Go vegetarian one meal a day, at least
Id have to say if you have the choice, stop eating meat. Its pretty unethical to slaughter animals in a factory all day for food if there are thousands of other healthy plant based options within your reach.
Keep your promises.
I don't think people understand how important this one really is. When you promise to take out the trash, hang out with your kids, do something with your spouse or friends, do it. Often times we make excuses that they will understand and they will but it means a hell of a lot more if they know that someone to depend on actually exist. Marriage is the biggest one of all. Pay attention to what comes out of your mouth and remember that your word is your promise, not the word "promise".
Responsible fish, a lot less plastic, no big pharma/consumer companies, less power, less water, LESS STUFF. Recycle, upcycle, reuse.
Becoming an organ doner
https://www.effectivealtruism.org/
Stop using straws at restaurants. It's a waste of plastic and although they may seem insignificant they add up... In our ocean.
This will probably be downvoted to oblivion but eat less meat. Raise your kids to know what meat is.
I haven't cut out meat but I eat it very rarely and I won't eat any animal that I dont think I have the balls to kill and butcher. I don't mean I only eat animals I've killed myself but I'm aware that for me to eat a meal that I could just as easily not have eaten with meat that something had to suffer for it.
Avoid buying bottled water, or anything from Nestle. Recycle.
Learning to suck your own cock so you don't have to bother other people for it
Shop for B Corp brands!! its real vetting of a business' practices on different levels and includes stuff like New Belgium Beer and Ben and Jerry's ice cream. Its easy and fun and lets you get alot or very little research depth. http://bcorporation.net/
Learn First Aid! I’ve just finished an intensive course on basic first aid and there was so much there I wish I’d known sooner. You’ll probably never need it but things like knowing CPR, identifying strokes and heart attacks, dressing wounds etc. This is all simple and easy knowledge that everybody should have and be able to use in an emergency. I’d never have attempted any of it before now for fear of doing something wrong, but so much of it is basic common sense and confidence. You could be the difference between life and death, and that’s pretty incredible when you think about it.
Pledge to donate your organs after your death.
Stop using straws. Or buy a reusable metal or bamboo straw or something. Real easy
Stainless steel straws make everything taste so good.
Actually trying to agree to middle ground in terms of political issues. Both sides are maniacs. We live in a “have it our way or else” mentality and it makes no sense.
Be cool to the cart pushers.
Don't leave your trash in carts. Children's diapers, and full cups of coffee will get missed if left in the child seat, and will completely fuck up the day of an innocent person. (See: Malfunctioning Trebuchet)
Bonus Round: If you shop in the evening, arrange the carts in an orderly fashion. Sure, it's not your job, but chances are, it could one day be your car getting dinged. Plus, most places do not have an overnight cart pusher.
Put others first. The Golden Rule.
Also stop giving your money to Disney.
Oh my gosh I never thought of that, honestly, now I feel bad. But I just think that maybe I should ask instead, do you need a straw instead? Because want gives the impression it’s a bonus and need implies that most people don’t need it
How about, Would you like a straw?
You sound like my manager “canadianinlondon73 could you be a bit less harsh” listen mark it is what it is.
I should so go into management. But alas I have no penis, or balls. FML.
Showering less frequently if you can, calling your parents (even if you have a bad relationship with them), cutting out toxic relationships (or making them better), STOP USING PLASTIC STRAWS, praising your partner/friends/coworkers more than you already do, praising yourself more than you already do, buy a homeless person a meal, offer more hugs where they are needed.
Drive an electric car or ride your bike
Not to take advantage of the less fortunates
Learn to love yourself
Stop shoplifting.
Using less plastic. I bartend on my days off my full time job and have stopped putting the little straws in the drinks I make. It's not much but if more bartenders followed this trend the impact would be huge.
Stop giving airtime to science deniers; anthropogenic climate change is 99.9% certain a thing and even if that 0.1% is right it's a devastating enough risk that we should be properly addressing it. Stop sharing lies from woo-ey idiots (I'm looking at you Avocado Wolf and Mercola). Keep an eye on your energy usage; if it's cold put a jumper on don't crank up the heating so you can sit around in shorts!
General rule: Very often your only options are doing what is easy, or doing what is right. Do what's right. You're love yourself for it.
Your post just reminded me of this video: https://youtu.be/nwAYpLVyeFU
Strive to be the best version of yourself you can be. Seriously. Take some time and sort yourself out. Develop a practical skill set to get yourself through life. The more effective of a person you are the less that you need to really on others. The less you need to really on others the closer you get to being a person that might be able to help someone else instead. And sense you are well developed with a good skill now the help you give will actually be effective. You might actually make a positive difference and not make things worse with misguided intentions.
Don’t vote for anyone who is an obvious racist. Like, seriously.
Stop giving your money to companies literally torturing (and I really mean that) animals.
If you want to eat meat, fine, but please, give your money to people that care at least a minimum of their wellbeing.
Volunteer for a good cause 1 hour a week. You can make a big positive impact in someone's life, with a very small time commitment.
It's also a very rewarding experience that brings you happiness on a deeper level than a nice meal/massage/video games etc.
If we all drank less alcohol and ate less bad foods, the world would be a batter place
Eating smaller animals. Eating cold-blooded animals instead of warm-blooded. Beef is by far the worst perpetrator, with cattle expelling more carbon dioxide than all of the world's modes of transportation combined. It simply takes way more energy to raise a large animal than to raise the same volume/weight/mass of smaller animals; it uses fewer resources to produce 500 pounds of chicken than 500 pounds of beef. Furthermore, I think it requires something like 30x (don't quote me on that) more energy to raise a warm-blooded animal than a cold-blooded animal of comparable size. It makes sense when you think about how the animals keep their body temperature up. So eating more fish, reptiles, amphibians, even insects is not only better nutritionally for you, it's much more sustainable.
Eat less and if you can, no meat. We in highly developed countries do not need to eat it. Not only does it have a monstrous carbon footprint, it is fucking hell for animals on a scale that you might not be aware of.
Veganism. I mean I’m not, I’m not even vegetarian but veganism seems ethically superior to being a meat eater
Do something that results in several billion less people. The earth is over populated.
Look at other people with kind eyes... offer a smile for them... say hello and acknowledge their existence... no matter who they are or under what circumstances you meet them. If they look at you for any reason just say hi. You never know what positive things can come from that... not just for you... but for them.
When you do need to use plastic containers, wash and keep them. They are reusable under EVERY FUCKING (not literally) circumstance. Was raised in a household like this and when I started living on my own, I realized just how much plastic is wasted on a daily basis.
Try not to kill 6 year olds
Cut down on using PLASTIC & PALM OIL
Eat less meat and milk-products. Your colon and the environment will thank you.
Erase religion except art related stuff.
If you're in bumper to bumper traffic, don't ride up on the guy ahead of you. If you go at a slow but steady speed, not only will everyone be happier because it feels like you're moving along (and in fact you will actually help the traffic problem resolve itself), but also anyone who happens to be driving a stick is going to be your best friend forever.
Related: if you see someone doing this, don't jump into their lane. They're trying to make things better. Try doing it yourself.
Downgrade your smartphone until it can basically do a few communication things - call, text, maybe email? - and a bunch of utility things - navigation, note taking, weather, etc and nothing else.
You'll find yourself connecting with the people in your life, enjoying the moment and being consistently more aware of the interconnectedness in everything. It's been great to not be sucked into the endless hole of negative news, social media or mobile gaming and learn that there's a lot of things happening around me that make me more sustainably happy than the small dopamine injection I get from the rectangle in my pocket.
But how?
Well, I tried going back to a dumb phone I used about 10 years ago and I couldn't get texts from anybody who was using an iPhone, so that was out.
Eventually, I settled on an old iPhone 4S whose operating system doesn't allow it to use most modern apps and is limited to 3G speeds on the network I use.
Finding an older smartphone also recycles something that already exists, rather than creating demand for a new product which, no matter how ethically made, consumes resources and energy to build.
Stop buying from Amazon.
Educating ourselves on all sides of current events
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This is not a joke. Work to keep our species from going extinct. Don't think it can happen? See r/Sapieniem for more info.
Give peace a chance.
Late to the party, but wash your hands. Not just after you shit. Wash your hands every few hours. You don't know what you are spreading or who it will effect, but to give you a good reason, it will probably be you or those youre closest to.
That anger and rage are worthless emotions. I personally realized this after getting mad at a close friend and seeing that my own anger did nothing but add fire to the relationship and would skip over the actual dialogue we were working to maintain. Weird tie in but I feel like sometimes you CAN choose to be angry over things and hold on to that anger instead of working towards an actual solution - or anything beneficial to you.
If you are capable - going vegan. I understand not everyone can feasibly do it, but those who can do it can really make an impact on those suffering animals in factory farms
If you have a kid, and you really didn’t mean to, do whatever you need to to be a good parent anyway.
We should all boycot Israhell.
not buying/consuming factory farmed meat/eggs
Don’t buy nestle profucts
Stop wasting food. It’s such a simple thing...but what you need and use it all. I’m not even talking using veggie scraps to make stock and the like. Just use what you buy, and only buy what you’ll use!
Stop shopping at Walmart
Support small, local businesses instead of large multinational billionaire chains and try to pay with cash when you can.
If you are religious you should be murdering all of the good people you find and sending them to the afterlife. It's the ultimate sacrifice, and what a good religious man would do. ( It's just a joke don't put me on that subreddit where i go to laugh at edgy atheists.)
Be willing to listen to people that have conflicting view points as your own. We won’t get anywhere if we don’t start listening to one another.
Along the lines of being considerate of other people: Put away you shopping cart/buggy after you have loaded your stuff into your car. I don’t know how many times a week I go to pull into a parking spot but can’t because some douche-biscuit left their cart there.
Most shops (that I have been to in the US) have a cart return spot in their parking lot, and it’s a few extra steps to put your cart there.
Don’t be a douche-biscuit. Put away your cart.
Username checks out.
People leaving their trash on tables at fast foods when the garbage is right beside them.
put your fucking shopping cart up in the rack...
Discourage industrial farming. Please spread the awareness about its impact.
Go out in the world and fund the spaying/neutering of one stray animal (dog or cat, but others work too). Of course, along with its recovery, which is just a couple of days. If 20% of the population did this, we'd completely solve the problem of stray animal overpopulation and prevent an incredible amount of suffering in only one or two years.
Pay for your porn! Just from a labor rights perspective it's the right thing to do if you care about ethical labor practices.
Be informed, and vote.
Also, possibly voat, but I won't go there.
Use vinegar instead of fabric softener or find a cruelty free brand. Buy cosmetics that aren’t tested on animals. It’s one thing to eat animals, it’s quite another to torture them for softer towels or to make our eyelashes look longer.
Start replacing fossil fuels with nuclear power.
Eliminate envy, lust, pride, greed, fear, anger, gluttony, and the whole gamut of the flip side of virtues. Observe yourself constantly.
If your company offers a 401K, especially with company match, take it. It's free money and it will keep the rest of us from paying for you when you're old and sick.
Start bagging your fucking groceries!!!!! Annoys the hell out of me when people have a lot of groceries and just wait there untill the cashier will first scan the groceries then start putting everything in bags. When people start doing that, I bet waiting in line would not be as long
Realise that the news and social media often tell the worse stories and amplify them.
There is always a small population of horrible people but on the whole, realise people are nice and they are good.
Step out of your bubble and meet people who’s ideas conflict with yours. That’s where real change happens
Don’t be terrified.
Read more books
Stop worrying about what other people are doing and focus on your own behaviour.
Don’t walk past garbage laying on the sidewalk. Pick it up and dispose of it properly.
Don't buy t-shirts with designs printed on, the plastic transfers break apart and place minute residues of plastic into the water supply.
Don't smoke meth.
Treating others with the compassion we wished we were given.
Eat less meat. Drive less. Recycle and compost.
Go vegan! There's no reason why our personal pleasure should outweigh the lives of animals! (Besides its excellent for the environment, which we all need to live.)
Smoke marijuana in front of conservatives
Um, all the conservatives I know smoke it. So actually I guess that would be ethical because you could share it with them.
Then why do they vote against it
All the conservatives I know are libertarians...they think all drugs should be legal
ALL of them are libertarians? How? I’m a libertarian. But most of the conservatives I know are the denim wearing flap jack flipping cross on their necklace scowl at you for walking by their house Fox News watching MAGA jerks who say 1 marihuana cigarette is equal to 10 heroins
I guess conservative is too general ...maybe evangelical conservative Republicans is what you mean cause that’s sounds like them.
That’s what I mean, and my town is so full of them it’s horrible. Those types of people should have a special election held only for their people because they try to ruin everyone else’s lives according to their strange beliefs
I feel ya and for ya. They keep breeding is the problem.
It’s fine that they breed the problem is they should have their own country where they rule themselves and their backwards way of thinking and leave the normal people alone
Here's the thing. It is our collective choices that are causing the most harm, and making wiser collective decisions is what can prevent or mitigate the biggest problems we face.
Individual choices are important, but focusing on them rather than our collective choices is one of the reasons we are in the mess we are in.
Going vegan, vegetarian, or at least eating less meat and animal products in our diets. Because of the treatment of the animals and it's pollution effects.
A good book I read for my moral philosophy class on factory farming is "Eating Animals" by Foer. It has many sources on it's facts if anyone's interested
Eat less meat. Buy more cruelty free products. Vote and know who/what you're voting for. Conserve more and waste less. Integrate creativity and play and gratitude into our lives. Be more aware that we each are one person with one experience and that "truth" does not belong to any of us.
Drug users, could you please NOT buy cocaine? People die in Mexico (they used to die in Colombia), the zetas are more violent everyday, and you're paying for their weapons. If you insist on using drugs, why don't you buy your chemistry equipment and synthesize them yourselves? All the necessary information is available on the internet.
People are dying, not for your food or anything... for your fun. Can't you have fun with anything else?
Use less plastic.
Boycott everything that comes from China. They are extinguishing species at a brutal rate. The extinction of this little porpoise (vaquita) is mainly due to the demands of Chinese traditional quackery.
https://news.mongabay.com/2018/03/only-12-vaquita-porpoises-remain-watchdog-groups-report/
And a rhino has become extinct already. The Chinese government allows for his mockery of medicine to go on so their population doesn't ask them for decent healthcare.
I'm done with this. I'm on a consumer's strike. I won't buy anything that's been made in China. When in doubt, I just won't buy. When in need, I will repair or buy second hand.
The last extinct rhino and possibly and sadly the vaquita are the last animals that become extinct with my money.
I'll try my best to buy much less animal products. I'll buy very little, but top quality, from farms where the animals have been treated properly. Best way of doing this is fasting. I can intermittent fast (one meal a day) almost every day. My fasting record is 70 hours: I'll try to keep that one once a week. It's great for the skin and the figure, and it saves great amounts of time and money.
Avoid buying anything with palm oil. That's almost everything that comes inside a box (read the labels). Rainforests in East Asia are being cut to plant palm trees.
Meditate daily
Stop purchasing from Amazon or other online retailers if you can buy locally. Shopping locally supports your neighborhood and those that live within it, even if it is a big box retailer. The people that work in your local Walmart live in your neighbor, you are helping them. When you shop online, you are sending your money to place that doesn't help your local economy or those living within it.
Stop shopping at Walmart
We should start questioning our choice of food consumption. Understanding where it comes from, how much resources it takes to produce such food, and your own personal ethics associated with eating animal products. In my personal opinion, humans are eating way too much meat to the point our food system is so unsustainable. We should also attempt in our own lives to waste less food.
Fun fact: Almost a trillion dollars worth of food is wasted each year, on all levels of the supply chain.
Eat less meat and buy it in high quality, preferrably local.
Also, use less plastic.
Don't look up to \ subscribe to idiotic YouTube \ instagram stars.. (i.e. supreme Patty, bhad baddie, of course that douche with the 2 first names)
In a sense, this is a 'choice' that we make thousands of times throughout our lives:
Learn to be ok with apologizing. Not just when you clearly screwed up or acted like a jerk, but even in 'borderline' situations like...
• You don't think you were really being a jerk but someone else doesn't see it that way.
• The other guy was being more of a jerk than you.
• You didn't so something intentionally, and couldn't have predicted the result, but accidentally caused a bad result anyway (injury, property damage, or just hurt feelings).
• You said something you sense bothered the other person, but they just quietly let it pass. Clear the air, it's ok to speak up and acknowledge the blunder. Just because they didn't say anything, doesn't mean they aren't resenting it.
• You're dealing with an upset customer. When you represent a company, it doesn't matter whether something was "directly" your fault, if the customer got a bad experience then you apologize on behalf of your employer.
• The other person has escalated a conflict, but you started it. It's easy to decide you aren't at fault, if they're overreacting and yelling, while you're keeping your cool. But there's a difference between refusing to escalate, and trying to actively defuse an angry situation.
• You're having an internet argument with a total stranger, and could care less if they like or respect you since you'll never meet them.
• One of the hardest situations is when you KNOW you did nothing wrong, and they're being irrational. You have nothing to apologize for, so why apologize? Well, you might be surprised how, 5 seconds after your "unnecessary" apology, they apologize too and concede they were the one at fault. We all have our moments, and apologizing is sometimes the quickest and kindest route to getting someone to step back and realize their rage is misdirected.
Probably some people will read this and think "sounds like a great recipe to become a spineless jellyfish who lets others walk all over you"...this is for those people, because they still don't quite get it. My relationships with my friends, coworkers, everyone became so much better when I learned to let go of my ego and do this.
Put the shopping back in the corral rather than letting it hopefully sit in a parking spot.
STOP USING SINGLE USE PLASTIC.
For the love of god, turn signals. Use them.
Listen to others with a different view.
Just because someone disagrees, it doesn't mean they're racist, dumb or ignorant.
Eg: gun ownership. We whine about it but most drink alcohol which is way worse. If you belittle gun owners who didn't do anything wrong.... you're to blame just as much or worse for your pro alcohol stance. You're not any different than the gun owner. He can't say no to his guns. You don't say no to alcohol.
We need to actively work against filter bubbles.
So many problems we have are rooted in the Tragedy of the Commons - basically, when something is seen as group property, no one sees it as their responsibility to care for it.
Instead, see your neighborhood, your town, your state/province/, your country, your world as yours. And then take action to care for it as you want it to be.
Sure, there are assholes that will do the opposite. But I believe wholly that the good people outnumber the assholes. We win by action, and lose by apathy.
For the love of dog, to your waiters, folks. We're poor and we need those tips
poeple who've reached the year 18 shouldn't eat meat anymore
why would we? we don't need and the thought that we are all killing living beings even though we don't have to is obnoxious
but that's not gonna happen
edit. the western people are like those guys from district 1 in hunger games
People tend to grow past 18 years old, just not so much in height. And we still require protein for tissue repair, hormones, basically general body maintenance.
I understand that you don't want animals to die, but it's simply nature. Animals kill animals, and like it or not, humans are part of the animal kingdom.
I try to limit myself to basically one chicken breast per day or a similar portion. Nobody needs a giant steak every meal.
there are enough protein sources other than meat
yes it's survival of the fittest (or the smartest in our case) but why wouldn't we show mercy to them? we are smarter and know we don't have to do it
Eat vegetarian or at least reduce meat consumption according to your own preferences. Mostly-Veggie diets have never been easier and significantly reduce your environmental impact.
Why is Vegan not top comment?
Because Reddit is actually owned by Tyson. They wouldn't allow it to be top comment.
Film horizontally. Just... it's not that hard. Turn the phone 90 degrees, THEN press record.
Something I strive for every day:
Just because you know a little bit about something doesn't mean you should bring it up to someone to when they are speaking on a topic. Comes off as rude and going against what they have to say.
Example
Friend: "I just started juicing and the book says to buy glass bottles because they are better than plastic because of all the BPA"
You: "Well, actually they make plenty of plastic bottles these days without added BPA and glass can break very easily."
What you should have done was be more enthusiastic about their new healthy choices and contribute ideas to help.
I find myself doing this so much in my life, even when I know little to nothing on the subject. I hate it so much and it's a very difficult thing to change, but I see myself in the light occasionally and reframe from speaking at times.
TLDR: Stop being an asshole and listen instead of talking.
This is going to get buried, but keep your pets inside - especially cats! Pet and feral cats kill 1-3 billion native birds each year in the US, and a third of the 800 bird species in the US are considered endangered. It's a tiny step you can take to help curb the current mass extinction event the world is currently going through.
Along with (obviously) eating less meat and not eating palm oil - two of the leading causes of rainforest deforestation.
Set up a document detailing how you want to be dealt with after death. For minimal environmental impact, don't get embalmed, and choose the least elaborate casket. In fact, if you swing getting buried in a simple shroud, that's good. Cremation emits a lot of CO2 instead of having your body broken down by natural rot and eaten up by plants and worms and such, but I don't know if it's cleaner or not than a plain burial.
Environment aside, I think the best way to learn to assume positive intent. Most people don't wake up in the morning and say, "Man, I want to be a douchebag today." They're reacting to their environment and emotions just like you are. Even if someone decided they wanted to be an asshat for no reason, why do you have to think that?
We all tell ourselves stories. If someone cuts you off in traffic, you have no way of knowing why. He could be a dick. Or, he could be late for an interview and panicking and not thinking quite straight. Telling yourself a positive story about negative events, will help you empathize with other people and be less reactionary to them. You won't honk and flip the guy off if you think he's suffering than if you think he just wants you to get mad. You will benefit, and you will treat others with more kindness.
Before you take out all your rage on someone working in food or retail, remember they are human and everyone makes mistakes. Also if you don’t like a policy, they don’t make the policy, they just work there. Don’t ask them to endanger their job just because you feel slightly inconvenienced.
Single motherhood. It shouldn't be something people accept because of it's impact on society. It's a shitty deal for the kid, as it leads to poor development. Many men in prison came from single mothers. It's a shitty deal for the mom as so many live in poverty and they have to spend even less time raising the kid to earn enough. It's a shitty deal for the dad, especially if he didn't want to be a parent and now he has to pay for a child he may not have wanted or go to jail for failing to pay. It's a shitty deal for the taxpayer as a portion of their money goes towards grants for something that could have been avoided.
If she's filthy rich, she has a chance but so many are poor. We could also do far more for orphans who need homes rather than increasing the number of kids destined for foster care because mom is a burn out and lives in squalor, dad isn't around and the kid has to share a bed with three other siblings, who have different dads. Ethically speaking, bringing someone into that environment is a terrible thing to do but we don't talk about it because being critical of single moms might offend some people.
Paying attention to your kids instead of buying them an iPad
Don't waste water
Fighting the global corporations who run our governments and enslave people with low wages and those who protect them.
No-one has said it in the top comments despite it being highly relevant to reddit:
"Learn how to conceded one's opinion when you learn facts that should change your opinion"
I very rarely see anyone admit via reddit that they have changed their opinion. For a discussion site it can be a big echo chamber.
This is then only made worse by the fact that people only see two options for every argument. Yes and no.
One example is everyone in this thread saying "use less plastic".
Well maybe the answer isn't USING it less, but recycling it more? So I disagree with the statement, but not the principle idea.
The problem I find is that most media sources portray almost all issues with only one solution. Usually its the 'final solution' too and totally overkill. But anyone suggesting a half way measure Is deemed to be resisting the initial argument. This can work the other way however. America with guns for instance.
Perhaps take global warming. should we try to stop emissions? Or be developing systems that negate our production of greenhouse gases instead?
A lot of the diversity of any discussion is lost because there are only two camps. Do this, or don't do this.
Politics is the worst for this, either you're left or right. Tory or Labour. Republican or democrat. Remember the possibilities of this world are endless, but yet we limit our choices as soon as we say there are only two parties.
Be free with your mind enough to make changes based on new informstion, it's ok to be wrong.
I'm sure you will all tell me how this is wrong somehow. But oh well. Post away!
I think people in this world put too much emphasis on trying to be happy. Not only does having the goal of happiness lead to less happiness statistically, but I don't understand how anybody can actually be happy when there's so much suffering in this world.
So I think it's important to spend at least some energy trying to make the world a better place to live in.
Smile and ask people how their day is going. Seems insignificant, but you do not know what is going on in other people’s lives. It could make their entire day and costs you nothing to give.
Not to make life's goal to be wealthy, and if you become wealthy, take care of other people less fortunate.
Stop having an opinion about every goddamn thing that goes through your head! For real : is it worth arguing that a pop-tart is a form of lasagna?? I kind of think any life is worth more than that.
Take responsibility for your actions. Yes, it is your fault, but now you can learn from your mistake and be a better person for it. Choosing to blame everyone else but yourself, means you'll never learn. It seems like there are more excuses than ever about why "It's not your fault".
Note: I'm only talking about results that are direct consequences of your actions.
All those weed seeds? Give them a chance!
Make it a point to talk people up when they're not around, even if you don't particularly like that person. I'm guilty of it too but I find a lot of people spend way too much time talking down on each other, and no one's perfect.
We should be building each other up.
Stop thinking about life as a zero-sum game and start realizing it's now a positive-sum game.
Free range meat. Pigs are smart animals with lots of personality, like dogs. They’re as intelligent as a 3 year old child. They’re kept in tiny cages and never get to move, it’s f$@king torture and shameful that we treat them like this.
Flush the toilet less, there is so much water wasted as a society since most people just pee and flush while you can easily be 5-6 times before each flush. Solid waste can be deposited 1-4 times before a good flush.
Avoid buying stuff as often as possible. If you can, just don't get or upgrade that new gadget. If you can't, share with others and shop used. Purchasing anything brand new should be a last resort and only when necessary.
these are some things i've tried to hold myself up to:
these are some things i'd like to work on:
Buy less plastic packaging!
It ruins our planet!
people don’t seem to care about the ethical aspects of this fact, but the easiest way for an individual to have maximum impact on climate change (as well as their own personal health) is switching to a plant based diet. on top of helping the planet and your body, if people realized how brutal and grotesque the meat industry is, they may think twice about putting bacon, egg, and cheese on their ground beef.
Go to community college if you can’t afford a 4 year right away. Or go to a trade school. Don’t put yourself $100k in debt just so you can get the “full college” experience. Also, if you want a liberal arts degree, work your ass off to make relationships with professors/alumni/clubs. Don’t use an easier major as an excuse to party more. A lot of my friends skated by on good grades but never took the time to prepare themselves for after college and would go out 3-4 times a week. They couldn’t find a solid job after college and now are struggling with their student debt
(Not saying you shouldn’t party. Just make sure you place as much importance on the relationships you’ll need after college as you do grades. A sociology degree with straight As isn’t enough to land you a stable job)
Something I made sure to set some time for all the time now is working out. It's made me felt better, I get more tired at the end of the day and don't need sleep meds to fall asleep anymore. Overall it's helped put me in a better mood when I wake up.
People really don't like hearing it, but we should all eat less meat. It has serious environmental, health, and ethical consequences that can be avoided with relatively minor lifestyle changes.
Really it's up to each specific person.
Trying to live cruelty and suffering-free. This means spending a little bit extra on free-range eggs and stuff. Obviously not wearing fur or a lot of leather. That sort of thing.
Leaving less of an environmental impact is also important I think. This can mean as little as walking more. Walking to the store down the street if you can, instead of driving. Obviously recycling and making a conscious decision to try and use less plastic. The amount of frivolous, wasteful plastic in our daily lives is staggering. For example, do you really need a plastic baggy for some peppers or carrots at the produce section at the grocery store when you're just going to wash them before using them anyway? That sort of thing.
Stop idling your car.
It's one thing when you have to go to work, or have to get somewhere where there's no way around the pollution. But sometimes I see people get to their destination and just sit there with the engine running for 10-15 minutes while they wait or something. It's needless and everyday tens of thousands of car do that which all add up to needless pollution.
May need the AC on. doesn't work without the motor running.
I get that, but at our parking lot, it'll be a 65 degree day. Car has all it's windows down, and it'd idle for 15 minutes while they wait to pickup a co worker. I almost want to say something, like hey, since you don't need it at all, can you save yourself gas and stop having your car blow toxic gasses out the back for no reason currently?
agree that is very silly.
It is amazing the number of big rig trucks that will sit and idle for hours at a time.
Eat less meat, eat more greens. Good for your body and good for the Earth.
Do you feel negatively towards ANY of the following: Climate Change, Deforestation, Species Extinction, Ocean Dead Zones, Animal Cruelty, Antibiotic Resistance, World Hunger, Heart Disease, Multiple forms of Cancer, Dementia, Manipulation of our education systems or just General injustice?
Well great news! There’s a very simple thing that you, as an individual consumer can do to help!
WARNING: This next part may be hard to read. Many people don’t like to hear this because it interferes with their personal interests and pleasures. Take a deep breath and when you feel ready, I invite you to continue reading.
Possibly the easiest change an individual consumer can make in their lifestyle for the greatest positive impact is to remove animal products from their diet. That’s it. Meat, dairy, eggs, honey and any other animal products. Drop it all! This lifestyle has a name that everybody loves to hate! Veganism. If you just cringed at that word, please stay with me!
Now hold on a darn minute. What do animal products have to do with that list of ethical issues?
Allow me to explain:
Before I begin, I’m just going to be listing some general information (probably in point form) that you may or may not believe and i’m not going to be able to link ALL of this to sources atm because I’m a college student in the middle of finals and I honestly don’t even have time to type this out, but I IMPLORE you to please do your own research if any of these things pique your interest. It’s not hard to find the scientific journals and research papers with the help of the internet. I will say however that there are some incredible documentaries on the topic available on netflix. To name a few:
Cowspiracy http://www.cowspiracy.com/facts/ Forks over knives https://www.forksoverknives.com/ What the Health http://www.whatthehealthfilm.com/ Earthlings http://www.nationearth.com/
These are all great starting places for some quick learning.
Animal Cruelty: Not sure what kind of evidence or facts are needed to understand that throat slitting is unpleasant. This ethical issue is pretty obvious, yet it took me 20 years to connect the dots. If you buy a burger, you’re supporting the killing of a sentient being who feels pain and fear the same way that you do. Same thing applies to all other forms of animal products. Take a second to imagine what that is like or if you’re having a hard time, watch Earthlings on Netflix or look up slaughterhouse footage on youtube. There’s a reason companies plaster their ads with smiling happy cartoon animals instead of real, terrified, trembling, bloodied innocent animals. I used to think that because I wasn’t physically slitting the animals throat, I wasn’t part of the problem, but eventually it clicked. Supply and demand, baby. 70 billion farmed animals are reared annually worldwide. More than 6 million animals are killed for food every hour (https://awfw.org/factory-farms/)
Climate Change: Animal agriculture is responsible for 18 percent of greenhouse gas emissions, more than the combined exhaust from all transportation. (http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.HTM) Livestock is responsible for 65% of all human-related emissions of nitrous oxide – a greenhouse gas with 296 times the global warming potential of carbon dioxide, and which stays in the atmosphere for 150 years. (http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.HTM , https://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/ghg_report/ghg_nitrous.php) Cows produce 150 billion gallons of methane per day. (http://www.pnas.org/content/110/50/20018.full) Even without fossil fuels, we will exceed our 565 gigatonnes CO2e limit by 2030, all from raising animals. (http://www.worldwatch.org/node/6294) Agriculture is responsible for 80-90% of US water consumption. (https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-practices-management/irrigation-water-use/background.aspx) 2,500 gallons of water are needed to produce 1 pound of beef. (http://www.earthsave.org/environment/water.htm) 477 gallons of water are required to produce 1lb. of eggs; almost 900 gallons of water are needed for 1lb. of cheese. (http://www.watereducation.org/post/food-facts-how-much-water-does-it-take-produce) Animal Agriculture is responsible for 20%-33% of all fresh water consumption in the world today (http://waterfootprint.org/en/)
Deforestation: Livestock or livestock feed occupies 1/3 of the earth’s ice-free land (http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/News/2006/1000448/index.html) 2-5 acres of land are used per cow (https://www.motherjones.com/files/eib73.pdf) 1/3 of the planet is desertified, with livestock as the leading driver (https://news.un.org/en/story/2006/01/165052-un-launches-international-year-deserts-and-desertification#.WPIC62dFfIV)
Ocean Dead Zones: Livestock operations on land have created more than 500 nitrogen flooded deadzones around the world in our oceans (http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2014/20140804_deadzone.html) 90-100 million tons of fish are pulled from our oceans each year (http://www.fao.org/docrep/016/i2727e/i2727e01.pdf) For every 1 pound of fish caught, up to 5 pounds of unintended marine species are caught and discarded as by-kill (http://www.fao.org/docrep/W6602E/w6602E09.htm)
Antibiotic Resistance (This shit scares me so much guys): 80% of antibiotic sold in the US are for livestock (https://www.fda.gov/downloads/ForIndustry/UserFees/AnimalDrugUserFeeActADUFA/UCM231851.pdf , http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2015/12/2015-in-review-animal-antibiotics/#.Wr0ZHYjwaUl)
Okay I really have to get back to my finals. You’re gonna have to do some solo research if you want to know more about the rest of the stuff. It’s really easy to find this information. I’ve had two years roughly to research this all independently. I’ve learned a lot and it will forever change the way I spend my money as a consumer.
Closing thoughts: This kind of lifestyle isn’t going to change all of the ethical issues in the list above overnight. People won’t change that quickly. It will be gradual and slow, but it will be effective. This lifestyle is often made to look difficult through many forms of propaganda like fast food marketing and agricultural industry lobbyists, but it's actually incredibly easy and can be very cheap once you know what you're doing. Simply get the bean burger instead of the beef burger or get the almond, rice, soy, cashew or hemp milks instead of the cow breast milk. Easy peasy. If you feel like making the change to veganism, there are limitless resources out there. Like I said before, Netflix and Youtube are great places to start. If you think this is total bullshit, I hope you’ll do some research on the subject and then make a decision from there.
Stop buying organic.
Stop using drinking straws. They don't recycle and are dangerous to wildlife.
Don't adopt the "I'm just one person, what harm could it do?" mentality.
Parks and beaches are ruined because dozens of just one persons drop their trash in / on it.
Carpool lanes are choked by convoys of cars carrying just one person.
Facebook collects data on billions of individuals just one person at a time.
The side that wins an election is usually the side with the fewest just one persons on it.
Many of the social concords we have struck with each other are either made or destroyed just one person at a time. Don't be too lazy or small-minded to remember that the success or failure of the group is dependent upon the behavior of the just one persons that collectively comprise it.
Stop eating meat, maybe even try to go vegan or eat vegan once or twice a week, stop buying plastic water bottles, drink more tea or water and less soda, take the bike instead of the car, always keep an extra lightweight bag with you in your regular bag. Get those cotton fruit/vegetables bags with you to the grocery store so you don't have to get plastic bags. Don't raise kids, buy fresh and local vegetables.... Those are a few.
Also, be nice to strangers! We are all here just surviving. Retail workers are just doing their jobs, often for a really low wage.
Ensuring that animals used for our food are better treated. Just because they have short lives doesn't mean they should live in cruel conditions or be abused.
Don't let your ignorance be an excuse for not understanding something. If something comes up, and you don't know the answer, and you needed to -- that's ok, so now learn it. We have more information at our fingertips than any other time is history...
Fly less! You font NEED to go around half the world once a year for your vacation.
Don't let someone go through your life without being honest with them.
You should always question every belief you and others possess.
Study philosophy, criticise yourself, and work out your personal ethics.
Then live them.
follow you inner truth dont follow what society tells you that it's good or bad
STOP USING STRAWS!!! It’s super easy to stop doing and straws really hurt the wildlife
Don't poop at work.
Stop eating meat/ dramatically reduce the amount we do. Modern farming practices make it pretty much a horrendous life for these animals and I would rather not fund their profit by supporting that. Plus there are a gazillion studies out there that show it greatly reduces your chance of heart disease and cancer.
If you want a pet, try to adopt! Not only is it often cheaper, but it also means you're not giving money to mills, where the mothers are often locked up for most of their lives and forced to constantly give birth to malnourished puppies/kittens/etc. Plus, many shelter dogs are often already potty trained and socialized, and they even include spay/nueter and most immunizations with the price of adoption! All in all, it's the easiest, cheapest, and most ethical way to find a furry friend for life!
Do good deeds and expect nothing in return.
Eat less meat and buy meat from local and responsible sources. Eating factory meat every day is soooo bad for the planet
Stop treating strangers differently than we treat our close friends. Ethically speaking, we should be nice to everyone indiscriminately.
Recycle
Just be an organ donor. There really is no compelling reason not to be. You're dead. You won't be using the organs anymore. Simple as that.
I would also recommend donating blood regularly and being a bone-marrow donor. Giving blood is annoying, but very rewarding. Needing to donate bone marrow rarely happens (has to be compatible and can't be stored), but it's a simple, out-patient procedure.
Not continuing religious indoctrination.
Don't diddle people without mutual consent.
Don't be a dick.
Make an effort to practice maximum mindfulness and hospitality.
This thread reminds me of my neighbor I went to happy hour with. We were all eating at this amazing chicken place. I am in love with these little drumsticks the place makes. About 1 drumstick in, somehow we get on the topic of vegetarianism.
My neighbor tells me she can't ever eat foul because it is not ethical.
I am awkwardly dripping with spicy BBQ sauce and sipping my beer.
She didn't go crazy on me but it was kind of funny
To add to everything here, be sure to pass on your ethical decision making experience to the young people in your life and others that look up to you. The world can be overwhelming and kids learn so much about all of the things they can't do, giving them some simple ideas to start off can go a long way. "No, we can't make that landfill disappear today, but do you want to go recycle some stuff this weekend?"
For that matter, don't be ashamed to pass on your poor decision experiences as well. Your consequences have already happened. Why not spare them having to go through the same thing.
Plus those stories are usually more fun to tell.
Follow Wheaton's Law
Turn all lights off and switches off when not using them and turn stuff off standby. I know people say it's only minimal but if everyone did it it would add up
ITT: Things Americans will read to feel better about themselves, and end up not doing.
Be polite
Recycle, reduce, reuse, upcycle, and compost when you can
Don't shower too long
Try walking, or cycling instead of using a car
Eat less meat, and animal products, or consider going vegetarian, or vegan
Call your mom to see how she's doing
Refuse plastic lids and straws if you are eating out. Or buy a metal straw and keep it on you.
Doesn’t apply to everyday life but I’ve found that, when at a rave, there’s nothing better than some small acts of kindness.
I try to take after my friend who introduced me to the scene. Even just taking a little extra chewie and giving it out to whoever looks like they need/want some, or having an extra bottle of water and refilling peoples glasses. Everyone invariably gets a visible boost to their enjoyment of the night.
Sometimes I’ll see them out again, and they might be giving just the same. It’s just the little stuff, but it doesn’t half give you the warm fuzzies.
Consider going vegetarian. Even just trying it out or cutting down is helpful
Save more than you spend— today’s instant gratification isn’t worth what your future self will need to survive on.
Be nice to people on the internet.
When debating opposing views points, say what you aren't understanding about theirs in hopes they can explain it to you. Then anything you might normally say "but that's wrong" or "what about blah" in a confrontational tone, say in an inquisitive one. Just because you don't know a logical argument to your counter point doesn't mean there isn't one. And if it keeps going to a point where you don't have a counter point, then either you have to accept that part of their argument as true (unless it comes down to an idealogical difference. Which can just be acknowledged and you move on to the next point they have for their overall argument). And if they don't have a counter point, don't act like you debunked their whole argument, just ask what other points they have, and rinse and repeat. The hope is either you educate yourself and change your view based on information you weren't aware of, or the other person realizes that their argument isnt as sound as they thought it was.
Eat less meat, care about where it comes from. Are the animals treated with respect? Also, is that lettuce sustainably grown? Or it was grown with pesticides, killing animals and polluting the water and the soil? These are questions that we all shoud be making.
And don't use plastic bags or buy food wrapped in several layers of plastic!
To adopt a plant based diet. Immediately.
Going vegan.
Don't eat swordfish Tuna or other long lived fish. Some of these fish are as old as you, and sustainable fish taste just as good.
here is a list from Greenpeace NOT TO EAT: Atlantic cod (except cod from Marks & Spencer and Waitrose, and line-caught Icelandic) Plaice Tuna, including Albacore, Bigeye and Bluefin (but excluding Skipjack) Tropical prawns (wild and farmed) Haddock (except line-caught Icelandic) European Hake Atlantic Halibut Monkfish Atlantic salmon (wild and farmed) Swordfish Marlin Sharks (including dog fish and huss) Skates and rays.
HERE IS A CHART OF WHAT TO EAT
https://www.mcsuk.org/downloads/fisheries/fishweek/FishWeek_FishList_Jan2011.pdf
Do not drink and drive or use your cellphone while driving. Of the 30000 people killed in tragic every year in the US the majority duress because of these the causes.
Actively disposing of your rubbish appropriately. Not hard when there are bins every hundred meters
Stop doing things that you know aren't the best things to be doing. If you can't manage that then break the problems down even smaller and deal with those smaller things step by step until the core issue is gone.
Eat less / no meat. It's healthy to you, the animals and the planet. Win win win situation.
Take an honest look at your purchasing ability. Do you really need to buy the absolute cheapest version of a product, or can you afford a small price increase for a version that is produced more ethically? Some easy and impactful places to start are with groceries and clothing.
Fairly often, the ethical version of the product happens to perform better than the cheapest version. Don't think of it as a luxury. Try to switch your thinking so that the ethical upgrade is the deciding factor and the performance upgrade is a bonus, instead of the other way around. By doing this, you'll train your brain to place real value on ethics, which will help with all of your efforts to be more ethical.
I don't know how right this is but I only ever buy beer in cans rather than bottles. I am assuming that a glass bottle is harder to recyle and reproduce than a can. Does anyone know if this is correct?
Vote!! or STFU. If you can't be bothered to stand by people who stand up for your beliefs you don't have the right to criticize those that do.
Stop making excuses for why you can't do the things people have mentioned on this post
Alot of things that I believe in have already been said. So I will say "be self aware of your actions". Something I don't think too many people do. It helps alot, and you realise why people think you're being an asshole. Alot of the times we do things that will only help us, not thinking about the effect it has on others.
Put the fucking weights back in the gym when you're done with them
Cow here - eat more chicken, it's better for the environment.
Stop using glitter.
USE YOUR SIGNAL/BLINKER
TURN ON YOUR TAIL LIGHTS (visibility for OTHER drivers)
FFS
To sum up, just be polite and respectful.
Reusable water bottles
Refuse to participate in piracy of software and games. Buy the software/game, and use it according to the licensing agreement. Software engineers are people too... and deserve to be paid for their work.
One I care about in particular is our food habit. Look into what going vegan can do for our entire interconnected world. Mentally, physically, environmentally - for all beings, not just humans.
Don't take, or push for the government to take, from others. Property, rights, loved ones.
If you see a kid who is acting abnormal and may have a disability, smile at them. If you look at them and put on a frown, a parent will more often than not think you are hateful and judgmental. Every time I see a disabled child.in a store (I tend to attract them for some reason), I take my time and smile at them before moving along.
A smile can go a long long way.
considering eating more plant sourced foods. unquestionably better for the environment
There's something that could apply in the context of all of these things: don't let what other people's shittiness influence how you act. "Well, no one else does this thing, so why should I?" That's analogous to being a kid and using "He started it!" as an excuse. Hold yourself to a higher standard.
This is especially important those shitty people are right in front of you. It's easy to ride the high horse from afar; it's much harder when you are in the thick of an experience. But that's when our standards really matter. If someone is rude to me, I'm polite to them. I don't turn into a rude person just because someone is rude to me. Maybe one day, they'll remember that someone was nice to them even though they were being a huge jerk. Maybe they'll be inspired to change. Or maybe not - maybe they'll continue on being an asshole forever. But that's up to them. All I can do is try to set a good example, and live by the standards I think are right. I don't stoop to someone else's low that they set. I continue with my own standard, and try to get them to meet me up there rather than wrestle them in the sewers of human behavior.
All of that is easier said than done. It's easy to get goaded into immaturity. People who treat you like shit don't seem like they deserve to be treated any better. And I'm not saying you should suck up to them or let them walk all over you (that is especially important in personal relationships). You still need to stand up for yourself and the things you believe in. But I always look for a path there that isn't totally immature. I stay away from reckless insults. I try to level with the person, see things from their point of view. And if it still doesn't make sense, then I agree to disagree and walk away.
Just be nice to each other, people. Like holy shit, it's really fucking easy.
If you are a woman, compliments men if they deserve it. Men usually aren't ever complimented and it truly makes their day if they recieve one. It's like a warm comforting hug to the heart.
All right, here goes.
sorts by controversial
. . .
. . .
Well, then
Do one nice/good thing for a stranger every day. Always say “Please” and “Thank you”.
Spend the $5 on a reusable Kcup... I don't get on my environmental high horse that often but this makes a difference.
Bonus, since you aren't spending $30 on a pack of 25 kcups you can buy pricier coffee and use it for a longer time.
For Americans at least, stop doing everything in your power to avoid paying taxes. Taxes, by and large, contribute to the public good. While not every use of tax dollars is going to universally approved, we need to contribute. If we want our roads and bridges maintained, we need to pay taxes. If we don't want our vets dying in the street, we need to pay taxes.
This goes for entities at all levels. And I'm not saying we need to support out of control taxation. But we have come to the point where we want pay for none of the services while getting benefits for many of them.
Help someone when you are able to. Feed someone who is hungry. Give,a hug to the lonely and really listen to someone when they want to talk.
Remember that everyone is fighting their own battles, and as humans, we all go through the same things, just at different times. When you're at your worst, someone else is having the best day of their lives, and vice versa. Let people shine, comfort people that are going through difficult times, and don't talk shit, be mean, or be inconsiderate to someone for no reason. Have empathy.
Stop using products containing palm oil, and write, tweet, post, and tag the companies whose products you'd like to use if they didn't contain palm oil. Nutella is a big one, along with a hell of a lot of boxed crackers.
There's no good reason to use palm oil other than labor cost to produce it, and the ecological consequences are far too heavy a cost to pay for the manufacturer to save a few cents on a box of Triscuts.
Putting all of your charitable contributions toward a single charity accomplishes more overall good than donating smaller amounts to many charities. It might intuitively seem and feel nicer to be involved with a higher number of causes, but remember, your intention is (probably) to maximize the overall amount of good your money will do.
This approach is called effective altruism, and there is a fairly large community.
Leave stuff better than you found it. Especially Golf green ball marks
Inform yourself! Make sure you understand that we are all bias towards one topic or another. When arguing a point, don’t attack the person. Attack the argument. Make sure you know what you’re talking about before you speak.
Don't deny other people's humanity by completely ignoring them and acting like they don't exist when they speak to you.
If a homeless person or panhandler asks you for money and you can't or don't want to give, look them in the eye and say something like "sorry, I can't," or just "sorry." You don't even have to slow down if you're in a hurry.
Put a pot / shallow but wide container in your sink. As you do dishes with biodegradable soap (which works just as much as other soaps) you'll fill the container. Use that water to water your plants in your garden. Which you'll plant after this yeah?
Compliment others. It will make you happier
Don't be wasteful. Take what you need and give back. " a society will prosper when a man plants a tree in which the shade he can never sit in" or however it goes.
Care less about materials,money, and aesthetics. Love yourself and your friends for who they are and don't let jealousy doubt fear and over-thinking control your actions.
Do things you want to see happen in the world - don't wait for others to do it - "be the change you want to see in the world"
Money isn't all that important. Memories and happiness are. Especially in America we care so much about having the greatest tech and coolest car and biggest house. In the end... they really aren't worth it all. Go out and do what you love. Go hike. See the great outdoors before we turn it into a strip mall and realize we can't turn back. "You can do anything. But you can't do everything"
Take care of others, take care of yourself, and never trade short-sighted pleasures for long-term rewards.
Use the left lane for passing only.
don't use selfscan, use a register with a person, they need that job to
https://www.givewell.org/
Taking the givewell pledge
Put your hand in front of your mouth when you cough even if you are walking the street... and if you are around people try to aim towards somewhere with nobody, its fucking disgusting.
Recycle more often than you throw things out.
Be, exelent, to eachother
Remove hate. Learn to love. Lead with your heart.
to be a d*ck
Take an hour a day to exercise and learn to do it properly. From a position of individual ethics it will greatly improve your own life physically, mentally, and financially. More importantly staying healthy for your entire life will better allow you to provide care for your elderly family, play with your grandchildren and great grandchildren, as well as reducing the financial burden your create in society due to medical costs. There is also a lot of research that indicates that the mental benefits of exercise make people have a more positive outlook and are better at working with others to accomplish a goal. While it's entirely hypothetical, if everyone in a society was in good physical condition that society would be much more friendly, have much stronger economic production, and stronger bonds of human connection.
We have an ethical responsibility to take actions that will ensure the earth is habitable to human life for as long as possible. At bare minimum we shouldn't be making choices that are detrimental to that goal. We need to preserve the environment and bring about sustainable living practices not for the polar bears but for people. In this way ethics isn't about "good" vs "bad" its about survival vs annihilation.
I feel that we need to create works of fiction that show a happy future. With things like Fallout, Blade Runner, and Terminator at the forefront of how the future is depicted; it can really shape the way people see things going...sometimes a whole generation. Making a movie where we've solved the plastic problem; a video game where the player uses their waste as fuel; a book that pontificates the merits of interacting with machines; these works need to be made.
Art immitates and exaggerates life; life immitates and exaggerates that art; etc. It will always happen wheather it's good or bad; let's try to make it good.
From Famine, Affluence, and Morality by Peter Singer:
I begin with the assumption that suffering and death from lack of food, shelter, and medical care are bad. I think most people will agree about this, although one may reach the same view by different routes. I shall not argue for this view. People can hold all sorts of eccentric positions, and perhaps from some of them it would not follow that death by starvation is in itself bad. It is difficult, perhaps impossible, to refute such positions, and so for brevity I will henceforth take this assumption as accepted. Those who disagree need read no further.
My next point is this: if it is in our power to prevent something bad from happening, without thereby sacrificing anything of comparable moral importance, we ought, morally, to do it. By "without sacrificing anything of comparable moral importance" I mean without causing anything else comparably bad to happen, or doing something that is wrong in itself, or failing to promote some moral good, comparable in significance to the bad thing that we can prevent. This principle seems almost as uncontroversial as the last one. It requires us only to prevent what is bad, and to promote what is good, and it requires this of us only when we can do it without sacrificing anything that is, from the moral point of view, comparably important. I could even, as far as the application of my argument to the Bengal emergency is concerned, qualify the point so as to make it: if it is in our power to prevent something very bad from happening, without thereby sacrificing anything morally significant, we ought, morally, to do it. An application of this principle would be as follows: if I am walking past a shallow pond and see a child drowning in it, I ought to wade in and pull the child out. This will mean getting my clothes muddy, but this is insignificant, while the death of the child would presumably be a very bad thing.
The outcome of this argument is that our traditional moral categories are upset. The traditional distinction between duty and charity cannot be drawn, or at least, not in the place we normally draw it. Giving money to the Bengal Relief Fund is regarded as an act of charity in our society. The bodies which collect money are known as "charities." These organizations see themselves in this way - if you send them a check, you will be thanked for your "generosity." Because giving money is regarded as an act of charity, it is not thought that there is anything wrong with not giving. The charitable man may be praised, but the man who is not charitable is not condemned. People do not feel in any way ashamed or guilty about spending money on new clothes or a new car instead of giving it to famine relief. (Indeed, the alternative does not occur to them.) This way of looking at the matter cannot be justified. When we buy new clothes not to keep ourselves warm but to look "well-dressed" we are not providing for any important need. We would not be sacrificing anything significant if we were to continue to wear our old clothes, and give the money to famine relief. By doing so, we would be preventing another person from starving. It follows from what I have said earlier that we ought to give money away, rather than spend it on clothes which we do not need to keep us warm. To do so is not charitable, or generous. Nor is it the kind of act which philosophers and theologians have called "supererogatory" - an act which it would be good to do, but not wrong not to do. On the contrary, we ought to give the money away, and it is wrong not to do so.
TLDR: If we can prevent suffering/death without sacrificing anything significant, we should. Give until it hurts. It's a duty/obligation, not a charitable action.
Don't give money to poor people. They'll just spend it on stuff for themselves and not stuff for you.
We should all make a habit of getting our news from all different kinds of sources. We all know there's so much bias in the media, either one way or the other. If we stick with only a few sources of information, eventually we're going to get brainwashed.
Keep your eyes open. Keep your head on straight. Keep your bullshit detector clean and functional. Or one day you'll find yourself screaming with a bunch of other idiots about stuff some asshole completely made up to distract you from the real problems.
Exercise.. Too many people say they're too busy. They have pain in their back, knees, hips, etc. Probably from sitting behind a desk all day working and not moving. The pain causes people to not move or exercise and they turn to popping advils (this just minimizes the feeling of pain and doesn't address the actual issue (imo)). Just find the time in your day to work out. In the end you'll feel better and decrease your risk for heart disease as well as many other conditions. You can tape your tv show and watch it later or the following day but you can't keep putting off your own health.
The least people could do is recycle more!! You have no clue how much paper I see in the trash can when there is a recycling bin sitting not even an inch away from it!!!
Before posting on social media, ask yourself “would I walk into a crowded room full of my aquaintences and shout this?”
If so, then post.
Give up straws
Not follow Hitler in his pursuit of eugenics aka killing people off for genetic differences that are not life-threatening to the population as a whole.
I am looking at you Iceland.
Vaccinate your children, it is an easy yes, a quick trip to the doctor. Years of scientific study, time, effort, and data have gone into eradicating these diseases. Your children should not be put at risk because you have been duped into believing bad science.
Politics. Be respectful. Especially if you are the one starting the conversation or if you are talking on social media or otherwise to the general public.
You don't have to agree with everyone, but don't assume that your opinions are shared by everyone. Most people don't want to talk about it at all. And those that do don't want to have their opinions disparaged.
Listen more and talk less. Try to understand the other side and ask more questions than you make statements. For instance "Would that address this" instead of "That doesn't address this.
Try understanding their point of view before pushing yours on them.
Late to the party but hopefully one person will see this. My wife is a pretty popular "zero-waster" on instagram. It's a way of life that looks at the amount of trash you produce and ways to avoid creating any.
It's really changed a ton of things in our life for the better. We buy food in bulk, which a lot of people do but try to do it without using the stores provided plastic bags. You have to remember to bring your own bags and or containers. We buy clothes and household items used whenever we can. Yes, there was trash produced for them originally but we are not creating new trash or purchasing somethng that used new resources to manufacture.
It makes you really stop and think before you buy ANYTHING... you have to stop and think, first of all, do I need this? and second of all, how could I get this without producing any trash or waste. You'd be surprised at how many options there are.
We take our own containers to restaurants to put out leftover's in. We tell servers no straws. My wife has a couple travel containers of camping silverware that we use in place of plastic utensils.
It's a very simple thing to do but it does require some planning and foresight and you have to remember to bring your own containers, bags, etc. We may have to go to a couple stores to fill out our shopping list due to some having different bulk options.
Our diet has improved because we buy a lot of loose vegetables and bulk grains/beans, etc. My wife will take a container to the butcher (on the rare occasion we eat fish or chicken) and most people are happy to use your container to put stuff in, some balk, but oh well, it doesn't hurt to try.
We have a son and buy 100% of his clothes at the local kids resale store. He's young and we will probably have to some issues in the future when he's too cool for hand me downs but it works for now.
My friends are always happy to pass on old toys from their kids (because kids have sooooo many toys nowadays). He's happy because they are new to him!
Life has changed but 95% for the better. I miss buying a snack bag of chips but how many chip bags do you see floating around parking lots, stuck in fences, floating ponds, etc? There is usually a recyclable packaging option for most things. I don't eat candy unless I buy it in bulk or it comes in a cardboard box (gum is another story, probably the one thing I haven't given up...).
There are a ton of resources online and instagram folks that are attempting this. Check it out, it's a small thing that has far reaching consequences.
Stop buying unnecessary stuff and be kind to people around you.
Respect workers.
Reduce the plastics that you buy
Try to catch yourself in the act of thinking poorly of someone you don't know. Try to change that perception to a positive one. Like this morning some guy took the seat I wanted on the train, and I was fuming internally "ugh, why do fat people get priority over injured thin people" then I realized I was being a dick and spent the rest of the ride looking for things to like about the guy.
Treat everyone as an individual and be nice to them as much as possible. Don't think that, just because someone is a different color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, political party, or any number of other groups, that they aren't a person. Everyone needs and deserves to be treated well.
That being said if you have had a problem with an individual, then, by all means, fuck them! Don't let their shittiness cloud the way you think of others though.
Become an organ donor. You won't need them anymore and they'll just go to waste rotting in the ground or being burnt by cremation. https://organdonor.gov/register.html
Smoke weed.
Drive less, bicycle more.
In addition to the obvious problems with pollution and carbon footprint, the ubiquitous use of cars has a profound detrimental effect on the way we design our cities. They not only incentivize developers to build less density and put home, work and errands much further apart, but also the roads and parking lots necessary to accommodate them simply take up way too much space and add way too much cost (both real-estate and taxes/infrastructure).
Give at least 1% of your income away (more if you can afford it) to help those much less fortunate than you. Peter Singer's work on effective altruism movement talks about finding the most efficient way to use our resources to have the greatest impact on people's lives.
Shop locally, and buy the stuff with as little packaging as possible.
Just try to think about how your actions affect others.
This can be simple. "If I throw this gum wrapper on the ground, someone will eventually have to pick it up" or it can be more involved "If I don't get off Reddit and finish this powerpoint deck, someone might have to pick up the slack, someone else won't be able to do their job, and a lot of people are going to get yelled at."
Just be mindful of what you do.
When you think something positive about someone - say it out loud.
You'll be amazed.
Queue the vegans and vegetarians
It's a thread about ethical life choices, slaughtering animals while fucking the planet is patently unethical, what do you expect?
Also, cue*
Personally I think that there is nothing inherently wrong with slaughtering animals for food. However, we do need to think about the methods and the way that animals are treated during their life. There is much room for improvement there. But it is not unethical to eat meat. We need to get a grip on that and stop attacking people for enjoying animal products. Then we can all work together on figuring out how to fix the food industry and food wastage.
I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just pointing out that animal agriculture is fucking animals and it's fucking the environment. What we actually need to do is get rid of this idea that eating meat and consuming other animal products is somehow not unethical.
I'm sorry but consuming animals for food is not unethical. Yes, our farming practices need to be revisited. Yes, we have a problem with food wastage. Yes, we could be eating less meat than we currently include in our diets. But unethical to eat meat. I'm sorry but no.
Killing animals that don't want to die when you could just eat something else is objectively unethical.
And that's before we consider the catastrophic environmental impact in the form of greenhouse emissions, deforestation, plummeting fish populations, etc. etc. But please tell me more about how these things are so ethical.
Not telling other people how to live their life. Everyone's situation is different for every complex individual not everything works for everyone. So just do your best, instead of holding a carrot personality that'll you'll never reach and be depressed that you set such outrageous limits for your happiness.
Having only 1 or 2 kids.
Don’t lie. Tell the truth always.
Found the single person.
Picking up your, or someone else's garbage. If everyone were to pick up 1 piece of garbage each day, we could make a huge difference.
Practice DBAD. Don't Be A Dick. It's simple, am I being a dick? Then stop. Is it a dick move? Don't do it.
Conduct yourself with integrity and surround yourself with others who share the same quality.
Be where you say you're going to be.
Do what you say you're going to do.
Having integrity means you can be trusted. Earning trust is invaluable and people who recognize this trait will be the ones in your corner.
Conversely, avoid those who show little to no integrity. These are the dregs of humanity who will only serve to bring you down to their level.
Not shopping at Wal Mart.
hold the door open for people. Be a better person in general.
Make sure you are not being nice because of fear to a supreme being but because you feel good about it. Also note that almost every "nice guy" out there is nothing but an average ethical being.
Edit: syntax
Be honest with everyone and yourself. Don't be a busy body. Don't talk in movie theaters.
If you see trash on the ground, pick it up and put it into a trashcan.
Eat less meat.
Clean the gym equipment after you use it.
I mean...i guess if you're sweating that much
[deleted]
I don't think you read the question
Correct. My bad.
Stop eating fucking meat for a start.
I love animals but there is nothing unethical in eating animals
So you don’t love animals then?
I’m sorry but eating animals is unethical. Like, you’re eating a dead animal.
No, of course I love animals. What I meant was, eating meat has no relation to ethics. It would have everything to do with morality.
Ah right dude fair enough.
no they love animals
Ah right sound.
nah
Ah right, sound. Jog on
Refusing to circumcise your newborn son because we shouldn't be cutting anything off anyone's penis ever.
Prepare your children, so if you die early, they will have the life skills to continue without their hands out.
Eat less meat. Just try one less meal a week. If you have one meaty meal a day, every day, that's already 14.2% decrease.
Meat production destroys jungles, provides 1/10th-1/100th of the calories per acre compared to vegetation and it kills tons of animals. Both directly and indirectly.
And it's all so we can have some delicious meat. It's good, but not so good that I can eat it all the time knowing that animals are dying because of me. Which is why I only eat meat every 3 or 4 days.
Hell, even if you eat meat only meals a well, reducing that to 4 will save 20% of the land, animals and resources (mostly) that go into sustaining you.
It's a pretty good way to help the earth and it's extremely simple. And you don't even have to give it up, just eat less of it.
Eat meat or not. Just give it some thought and decide. No judgement.
one I think people overlook, if you are well off financially and are retired..DONT just take a job to keep you busy. Leave it for someone else who needs one and volunteer or get a hobby. I know too many retired wealthy people still taking good part time jobs essentially fucking over someone else
Not keeping a list of broad preconceived notions or judgments about someone solely due to political party orientation. For example, I tend to lean republican, but I don't think people should be able to have a small weapons arsenal comparable to some small countries in their homes/at their disposal, I am very much not racist, and I am very much not a wealthy corporate big shot...
I do, however (hypocritically haha), believe that most of my generation (millennials) are overly self-centered, insanely too sensitive, entitled little assholes who think they it's okay to bitch, whine, and complain about anything that isn't in line with what they think or believe, or if something doesn't go their way.
Don't be a dick.
Do your job.
Just because co-workers will pick up the slack, and management judges you as a group, doesn't mean you can ignore everything you're supposed to be doing.
Give blood dudes.
Get married before having kids, and stay married. Countless studies have shown that kids who have married parents are far more likely to live happy and successful lives, and are far less likely to be suicidal, depressed, or have other mental health issues.
Share your mini shields
Not allowing your cat to roam the neighborhood. They kill millions of birds.
Stop flying all the time.
Smokers can stop tossing their cigarettes all over this planet.
Nothing infuriates me more than seeing a smoker toss his butt out the window with the expectation that someone else will just pick up after them. Disgusting and terrible for the planet.
Quit using plastic wherever possible.
Stop being intentionally ignorant about things, and when you learn the truth about something, act ethically even if it is hard to do.
One example is eating animal foods. When you actually learn what's going on in terms of animal foods' effects on your health, the environment, and the animals themselves (an absolute horror show), the only option for a thinking, caring, ethical person is to go vegan.
I know I'll get downvoted and yelled at, which is hard to take. But if one person reads this and actually decides to look into it - maybe by watching Earthlings to start with - then the grief I'll take for suggesting this will be worth it.
Learn to say ' It was my mistake '. It is a surprisingly rare trait these days.
Go vegetarian and
Be an organ donor.
The latter I think should be a legal obligation. So many people die because we prefer to take our organs to the grave!
Stop purchasing animal products that come from factory farms or from laboratories that test on the animals to create household items. It might seem like a huge hassle to give all of the stuff your used to consuming up, but it is a way to make a huge ethical leap forward. Vote with your dollar.
Unconditional compassion and loving kindness to whoever/whatever is around you.
It doesn't matter if it's "not your job" if something needs to be done then just do it. I work around a bunch of people who literally try to make the work day harder for each other and it drives me insane. My job title is mechanic but if I'm at the office waiting to get my expenses refunded then I help customers while waiting, i clean up areas that need it. I've even run the office and paid customers because there's no reason not to. If we all helped each other out just a bit then stuff would go so much smoother.
Also, quit lying about everything. It's not worth the stress or trouble it causes down the line.
It seems there are a lot of good people who have died, and a lot of bad people who are alive. Correct that.
Donate. Most of us can spare a few hours or a few dollars a week for good causes to make the world a better place.
Be a freaking parent. If you have a kid, raise it. Be there for the kid. Single moms across white/black families have increased. If kids don’t have parents they get into trouble and cause a lot of issues. If you don’t wanna have a kid then don’t sleep around and if you do then wear protection. If accidents happen give it up for adoption. There are tons of people who can’t have kids that want one. The degradation of the family is destroying our society
Avoid big brand name. I work for one of the largest banks in Canada and I can tell you from first hand experience that large corporations don't succeed by providing the best service, but rather from cutting every corner possible, outsourcing work (sweatshops if they're producing a physical object), and overspending on marketing.
Don't litter, you fucks.
Stop using plastic straws!
Buy toilet paper made out of bamboo, not trees. Indistinguishable from tree paper, and grows so much quicker.
Use less electricity. Turn things off when you leave the room, don't leave the fridge door open, insulate your house, use less hot water, eat less meat. The smaller your carbon footprint, the slower the climate will destabilize and the more time we have to remediate the issue
Courtesy. Be polite. It never hurts to be kind. Though lately I have been told not to give compliments to women I don't know, because some women take offense to being told they have a lovely smile, or a nice dress, or that blazing pink hair is great. Because those are shallow things to compliment.
Pay your employees management. And if your current company won't let you, find one that will.
Go vegan. By far the best way you can reduce your carbon footprint, end the unnecessary suffering of sentient beings, help delay the inevitable rise of antibiotic resistance, and quite frankly, stick it to the lobbyist in Washington who work day and night to keep one of the environmentally and ethically worst industries alive (factory farm/animal agriculture). You really can't say that you care about the environment and still eat meat or dairy.
Unless you’re unable, everyone should donate blood as often as they can. There’s a huge demand and you never know when you or a loved one will need one of those transfusions. It’s relatively easy, fast, and painless and can save several lives. It’s worth it. You can check for a local blood drive by zip code on the Red Cross website.
This is a tough one, but consume less animal products. I can't say I've ever even dabbled in vegetarianism but that doesn't change the fact that an overwhelming amount of green house gasses, carbon emissions, water waste, pollution, and climate change in general is linked to the consumption of animals.
Turning off lights, biking to work, buying eco friendly plastics, all that shit pales in comparison to what cutting meat out of your diet does for improving the environment.
I don't want to do it, I don't know how to really do it, but if we care about the world, we gotta eat less meat.
Be self sufficient. Until you're self sufficient, you can't help others.
Treat people who help you with basic manners and respect.
Stop throwing your soiled diapers out in the parking lot. Somewhere nearby, I promise you, there is a trash can. Make the world a better place.
I've never heard of people doing this
OMG, is it a regional thing? All the time here. I see them all the time. Once they've been run over, that absorbent material smears all over the place. Along with other stuff :(
I've also never seen this in my life.
Fuck bitches get guap
Recycle everything you can.
I am always too late to these things so I’m hoping someone else said something similar but: avoiding products with PALM OIL in it. Seriously. Stop. It’s not necessary for anything and is in EVERYTHING.
Stop drinking soda. Eat less sugar.
Americans should be attempting to get rid of the corrupt assholes in the American government.
I think the most obvious one would be to avoid actions that cause suffering to others and to the environment.
"Don't be an asshole" has been stated many times in this thread, but some people don't realize that it's all the little things they do (and the justifications they come up with for their behavior) that make them assholes, and that cause suffering.
Of course, being a kind person requires more effort, but if everyone were kinder to one another, then it wouldn't matter, as we'd all be helping each other out, even if just a little.
Don’t throw trash out your window, especially with the justification of “I’m giving someone a job” .
Close your facebook account. It breeds insecurity, narcissism and over consumption.
Make some minor changes to the way you eat. I’m not saying go vegetarian or vegan, just reduce the amount of meat, especially red meat.
The amount of green house gasses involved in the beef industry is staggering. Cows eat crappy corn based food that gives them excessive farts, which are filled with methane. That methane is a huge contributor to global warming. Transporting tons of beef around the country requires a huge amount of resources that harm the environment, namely diesel and coolants.
Try to avoid foods that are mainly produced using slave labor, so no Shrimp, easy on the cashews, make sure your coffee is free trade, and stay the fuck away from Nestle.
If you can, find a local farmers market and hit that place up. The amount of cool vegetables you get introduced to is nuts and it will help you learn how to eat in season. The dairy and eggs at these markets will blow your friggen minds. Freshly laid eggs, from truly free range chickens are on another level of quality, and at my farmers market they are only $1 a dozen more than egglands best at the grocery store. The milk is pretty cheap once you realize the bulk of the price is the bottle deposit and you get that credited every time you return it for a new jug of milk.
To distill down 80% of the choices here: Don't be a dick
We should not abuse social safety nets (like unemployment insurance) just because we pay into them.
Quit killing each other stupid shit. Also Quit doing stupid shit
Eat less meat and stop eating tuna
Eating kale.
consideration for others and the earth
which can be accomplished mostly by common sense
Use a upc reader app like Buycott to give you a heads on the stuff you buy. Who owns / manufactures it. What types of politics to they lobby for / ethics do they abide by. Do you agree? If not stop purchasing / divest.
Practice buying services and goods from companies that match your ideologies.
Vote with your dollar. That’s the only way to affect any corporate change.
I'm sure some of this has been mentioned already, but really it all boils down to considering other people and not being so fucking lazy.
Open a door for somebody if they have their arms full (or just because), if you miss the bin pick up that goddamn litter from the floor and put it in, don't just demand things of people who work with you but not "at your station" because cleaners etc are pretty damn important - what? you want to live in a shithole?, be kind to others because you'd sure as hell want them to be kind to you, and for goodness sake take a second to think about somebody else before you decide to be an asshole.
Basically, that thirty seconds it might take you to do something nice for somebody is not going to destroy your day unless you're defusing a bomb or something.
Buy as much as you can second hand!! Clothes, household items, technology, etc. It will reduce your support of the unethical production of goods and your environmental impact!
Buying cruelty free products!
I've just started it. But go and spend blood. The feeling is honestly amazing if you thing about that this could save someone's life. Same for all the other stuff spending wise. If I can take a hit, so someone else survives their shit, I'm down.
Going Vegan!
Use your blinkers when making turns
Stay on the right line you slow fucks, also be kind.
Take 20 seconds and pick up a piece of garbage.
Metal or glass straws. Basic cloth bags for produce instead of using the plastic produce bags at grocery stores, some bags are even designed to hold things like beans or rice or even flour if your grocery store/market has a bulk foods section, and of course the bulk foods section is usually cheaper. Also, reusable bags for all groceries in general. Ask for paper when you forget your bags at home.
A CSA, community supported agriculture. In my area, I give around $120 bucks at the beginning of a growing season and I get to pick up a huge crate of vegetables and some fruits every Thursday during the growing season, that would normally cost me tons at a grocery store. And I love meeting and supporting the farmer (s) responsible for my food, it makes my food more personal and enjoyable. https://www.localharvest.org/csa/
Transitioning to hybrid or electric cars.
It's ridiculous to still have cars with 400-700 horsepower run on gasoline.
Make your immediate surroundings a cleaner and more organized place than it was before you arrive.
In the USA, FUND PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
You are the richest country in the world ever, yet all kinds of schools are absolute shit. It should be such an objective thing and it's ridiculous to hear how big cuts are affecting what should be the best schools in the world every year. We throw homeland security 42 billion a year to be a "double check" yet can't find money for our fucking kids.
Schools should be the FIRST priority to fund.
We need to demonetize our children's attention--the amount of ad revenue generated by preyed upon children, particularly on the internet/Youtube, is tantamount to child labor, IMO. I've spent my career in marketing and advertising--I always wanted to make commercials. Finally having acquired all the skills, I'm stuck because during the process I've come to know marketing and advertising as one of the most malicious and socially subversive facets of our daily life, and I don't wanna play. I was taught that "Good marketing creates a need where there wasn't one before." If that doesn't make you a little sick to really think about, you're still in love with your master's paradise.
im janitorial staff at a casino...all this pee comments have gotten me giddy
but srsly...i feel like since the invention of the urinal, people were like "oh cool, we can just pee in this.", but no one ever taught them how.
i've actually looked it up...get as close as you can...and then inside, pee at a 45 degree angle downward, and this is the biggest part, DONT PEE ON THE CAKE/FILTER THING. otherwise you get pee on yourself and more that i have to clean up. that last thing is pretty much all you have to do.
Do not complain about other people, do not talk on their back. Start living your lives, start talking about your life.
Reducing your meat & animal product intake is great and surprisingly easy (and this is coming from a born-and-raised meat and potatoes Midwesterner). Start with a vegetarian meal per week then try a meatless day or two. Vegetarianism and veganism don't have to be all-or-nothing propositions!
Don't be that asshole who never wants to let anyone in, who never wants to let anyone merge, and then of course those same people will cut you off suddenly with no signal because they think I'm as much of an asshole as they are and wouldn't let me change lanes.
What kills me about this is that most people probably think that letting someone in front of you means you are getting to your destination later when in fact it's the people who make it difficult to change lanes and merge who are fucking it up for everyone.
Don't be that asshole who never wants to let anyone in
this sounded like it was going to be touchy and sad for a moment
then it became ab out driving
I've been driving a lot recently.
Don’t drink disposable plastic water bottles. Get a keeper and fill it up as needed. Once you start doing this it’s hard to imagine life without one. I carry a liter around with me wherever I go (in a backpack or my car).
Teach your children well. Their future does depend more now than ever on their ability to make good decisions.
Stop trying to control the hell out of people close to you
Not using any cosmetic or cleaning products that are tested on animals.
We should use reusable water bottles instead of disposable plastic bottles. Even if you don't want or can't drink your tap water at home, just buying water in large jugs or even just by the gallon is a step in the right direction. It's that huge amount of single serving plastic bottles that are the real issue.
Reducing and eventually ending the consumption of meat and other animal products is the most ethical thing we can do for the whole planet.
Make a conscious effort to be friendly and get others to laugh. It works wonders for helping others and it can even brighten your own mood.
Don't spam your SoundCloud links without supporting the person your sending your stupid song links to first.
Volunteer to do stuff in your community.
Recycle everything you can it drives me nuts watching people just throw shit away that can be recycled
Collectively, I feel like we should pool resources to provide for every homeless person, in our community, and pay for whatever basic needs and or treatments are necessary.
Say what you will about some homeless not wanting to work, being drug abusers, handouts, not our responsibility, let the charities or governments handle it, etc.
In well off nations where we have the infrastructure, know how and ability, but for some reason consider it unnecessary to make sure everyone has the basic necessities to survive... it's just shameful.
I feel like having separate charities and groups try to handle elements or get funding splits the effort as well. We don't rely on Charitable groups to provide applicant families with fire fighter, or police services to keep them alive. Everyone gets help from a clearly established governed and coordinated source.
How does keeping someone off the streets not also apply.
One unified program to handle it all would provide a coordinated effort to eliminate societal homelessness. Then when we aren't so focused on finding them homes, we can now focus on the underlying issues that lead them down this path.
Know what you stand for and stand for it.
Too many people these days are blissfully ignorant, or unwilling to be the first to stand.
Stop looking for someone else to do it for you.
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Who the fuck has random weans hanging about their garden ?
I do :(
Do not sleep with co workers and Do your job first before talking crap about others and their performance
One should consider the 5 ethical decision making tools, and try to satisfy as many as possible with every ethical dilemma.
1)The Utilitarian Standard: Promote happiness rather than suffering
2)The Kantian Standard: Does it respect every individuals autonomy
3)The Social Contract Standard: Do justice by asking what social arrangements would be accepted if you didn't know your own social standing.
4)The Care Standard: Show caring, compassion and loyalty, especially towards those that are close to you
5)The Ecological Standard: To help preserve the integrity and stability of the earth's ecosystem
It won't always be possible to fulfill all of these standards at once, but I believe one's personal judgement with these 5 in mind will always bring out a good outcome
People really don't like to hear this. But stop eating meat. Animals don't deserve the hell we put them through.
Be more mindful of the amount of plastic waste you produce. Try to cut back.
Cutting out single use containers where possible- get good glass dishes, it makes it so much easier.
My uncle just passed away unexpectedly and donated his body to science. I’m not sure exactly what scientists will learn but I’d imagine more people should do that.
Typically they are used for medical education. Many medical schools have these donor programs and they are key in learning anatomy
Become anarcho-communists
Veganism (taking allergies, certain aspects of health, and cost into account of course)
Give your money to people who need it more than you. I'm a little surprised nobody seems to be posting this. Most of the people reading this comment can easily save lives with just a fraction of their disposable income. For example, the Against Malaria foundation estimates that for just $3000 you can save a life. Other estimates suggest that the same effect can be achieved for much less money (https://www.thelifeyoucansave.org/where-to-donate/against-malaria-foundation). Even if you don't have $3000 of disposable income right now, you can set up a recurring donation, never think of it again, and in several months or several years you'll have saved someone's life. It's a no brainer.
I mean, we praise people who donate kidneys to people who need them. This is laudable, but donating kidneys is dangerous, time consuming, and inconvenient. You can achieve the same effect, saving a human life, with literally five minutes of effort from the comfort of your home right now (at, e.g., https://www.againstmalaria.com/Donation.aspx).
Cutting down on animal products, accumulativly if we don't it'll kill all of us, and most of the flora and fauna on this planet.
I do surveillance and the amount of people who litter, dump trash, etc just boggles my mind.
Whether to delete Facebook
I work in a small cube farm with three women that are all day just shouting to each other back and forth so they dont have to get out of their chairs. Can't hear myself think sometimes. Can't hear the person I'm on the phone with. You can make the office a better place by being mindful of others.
reuse , reduce, recycle.
Always make the hard choice. No matter what the decision; macro or micro, make the hard choice.
Laundry needs to be folded? Easy choice is to let it sit and do it later, so you do it now. Garbage on the sidewalk? Easy choice is to walk past it, so you pick it up. It can apply to almost anything in your world. And I think if everyone approached decision making with this philosophy, it would be a much better world.
Donate your body to medical research - before or after death, both work.
Helping kids in abusive/bad situations. After the whole fiasco with those sick parents who chained their kids up in California, I think it’s important to report weird activity if you see it.
Work hard and don’t worry about who has more than you, but rather what steps you can take attain more without stealing from others.
Liberate-animals.
Support the conservation and welfare of primates by down voting primate pet videos on reddit.
Don't take pride in your shortcomings and problems.
Invest ethically. Take a look at your 401ks and see if there are any oil companies or weapons manufacturers in your portfolio. Companies like Exxon and Lockheed are commonly seen as blue chip investments and are in a lot of mutual funds etc.
You’re literally investing your money to support companies that profit off of war and ruin the environment.
If we all divest from them, they’ll stop those practices.
There are also a bunch of ethical funds. Ones that align with religious beliefs and ones that specifically invest in environmentally friendly companies. And the best part is you can still be saving for retirement and making money.
Honestly, if we all stopped eating cows that would help a lot. (I eat cows)
Organic eggs - far far better for the hens and because of a more natural diet the yolks contain something that protects your eyes (non organic apparently feed hens colourants to colour the yolks). I think I read somewhere of all the things to buy organic, eggs are the most worth while
To be an organ donor or not . And to express your wishes to your family . As well as end of life care you would like .
My suggestion is vehicle based as well, but still as a new driver, don't tailgate and honk at people for stuff. Yes, I am inexperienced but I try to be polite, and it's surprising how many people are as well but it could always improve. Honking in a traffic jam solves nothing and neither does it solve anything when driving at a reasonable speed. All you're doing is increasing tension on something that already rustles my jimmies a bit.
If you see trash on the ground, no matter who's it it, pick it up and throw it away. Most likely, it is lying right near a bin. The more people that see you doing this, the more that people will either: a) pick up trash that they see on the street, b) be more mindful about litter and, hopefully, litter less, c) both a and b, or d) insult you for thinking that you're better than them, while they continue to be shitty people and litter.
Eat a vegetarian or vegan meal at least once a week, and if you're the reproducing sort, have no more than two kids.
Sign up to be an organ donor.
we should say "hello" to each other more. or maybe just me. no, everyone else should too because i don't want to just say "hello" to a stranger and not get one back.
Veganism
Helping a stranger in need when able to.
We all like to think we're in a rush and don't have 15 minutes to spare when sometimes we really do.
Don't leave your shopping cart out in the middle of the parking lot. Worse yet, putting it in the handicap space.
DON'T LEAVE YOUR SHOPPING CART IN THE PARKING LOT!!!!!
Stop using plastic water bottles! It's bad for your wallet, the envurinment, and ocean life.
Everyone should make an attempt at having perfect thighs and sharing said thighs with the rest of the world
Donating large portions of your income to the against malaria foundation. One of the biggest problems in society is the mistaken assumption that there's actually a moral right to thinking you earned whatever you have in such a way that its not a moral issue to spend it all on yourself. But there's no actual reason to believe that except status quo bias.
https://www.utilitarian.net/singer/by/1972----.htm
Never play builds that abuse double dipping in Path of exile. Ethical builds only.
Not a vegetarian or a restricted eater at all, but everyone should attempt to do one plant based meal a week.
It doesn't seem like it would make too much of a change, but imagine if literally EVERYONE did it for one meal a week how it could impact the world.
Ethical meat/animal product consumption. Vegetarianism is one avenue for that but its unrealistic and I feel unreasonable to preach veggie or vegan diets to the world.
For those of us who want to continue to eat meat and animal products we need to find better options. Factory farming is an ecological nightmare.
My approach has been to try to only get meat and stuff from small ethical butchers that source their products from small farms. This isn't always cheap so I also just eat less meat now. Beef in particular is one we could all stand to cut way back on for health reasons as well as ethical and environmental reasons. Chicken is my go to protein.
Hunting is arguably an option for some people but the effect on wild populations can be iffy and most people don't have the gear or skills to do that. I grew up hunting and I still don't consider it an option for me now.
So I guess the short version is, consume less meat and animal products, beef in particular, and make an effort to source what you do eat from ethical small farm sources.
The goal being to reduce the need for mass deforestation for farm land and land to grow feed crops for livestock, reduce the massive methane emissions of cattle farming, reduce animal suffering in what is basically a livestock holocaust, and be healthier through less red meat consumption.
Seafood is another area that direly needs ethics. We are cleansing the sea of all life with literal tonnes of by catch being killed and thrown back for each edible fish. There are literally slave ships run by major fishing companies around the world. We need to do better.
There's so many cloth, glass, or silicon items that can replace your disposable and plastic things and save you money and help the envirnoment. Among them are cloth diapers, cloth napkins, cloth pads, glass Tupperware, silicone straws, silicone food savers. The only reason not to use these things is misinformation and laziness.
Stop cheating in relationships. Be honest if you’re unhappy and just break it up.
To let the church hinder us.
I think a very simple one is apoligizing and accepting when we're wrong.
Learning to say sorry is very difficult. However, once you do it properly (and not too much!) then it can be very empowering and help you identify your faults and then grow.
Just be nice to others and the environment
Donate and shop at charity shops. Great for the environment, raises money for a good cause, saves you a pretty penny whilst your at AND charity shops are great at combating social isolation and developing the skills and work experience of those who volunteer there. Am a charity shop manager.
When you're driving, shit you do to save time like cutting off and whatnot, puts the 100 people behind you in danger. Just so you can save 3 seconds.
During discussions and debates, genuinely try to get inside the mind of your counterparty/opponent. If it was a good discussion, you should be able to walk away and articulate their position well (perhaps after reading some citations they provide); and vice versa. Too many people are mis-learning an unproductive debate style from current television.
Should we elect anybody without respect or concern for all others to public office ? Is there a place in our democractic process for bigots or anybody who hates ? Is it ever acceptable to disrespect women, the impaired, any individual or group just because they do not share your religious or lifestyle choices ?
Pay for winrar.
Cutting out products with palm oil that is not ethically sourced. A lot of rainforest is being cut down to grow palms to make palm oil. It's almost impossible, but I've cut out a lot of products. You may think, "Well, I'll just cut out processed foods." Check your shampoo. If it says SLS, SLES, sodium lauryl sulfate, or sodium laureth sulfate, then it's made with palm oil.
Here's a list of ingredients made from palm oil. Some facts about palm oil.
Boycott Amazon. They're not good for our economy because they're smothering competition. Purchases produce a lot of trash and increase production when they're delivered individually vs when they're delivered in bulk to local stores. They in general increase consumerism which leads to greater production of crap that isn't really needed and because it's so easy to just buy it and get it next day, people increase the purchases of things they don't really need. It also increases green house gases because more things are getting individually delivered. And they don't protect legitimate sellers and allow knock offs to run rampant on their site. And Jeff Bezos does not need to control more capital.
Drive save don't tailgate. Look ahead to see what is happening in front of the driver in front of you.
Don't watch movies and TV series with lead actors Scientologists. Tom Cruise and Handmaid's Tale's Elisabeth Moss are two examples. Why would we? With so much other stuff to watch, we won't lose anything with a little filter.
"Am I motivated by profit, by caring for people, or by a healthy balance of both?"
Don't murder babies.
Buy local. Fruits, veggies and meat. Learn where your food comes from and what practices are used in growing and producing your food. Support your local farmers and help build your economy. Stay away from factory farms.
Speaking something positive about others even when you don’t feel like it. We need to remember that we are all human, we mess up, we are insecure, and we can fail - but someone who notices or even shares the simplest of positive feedback or encouragement can change a person. If the whole world worked on kindness, it would be a lot different.
Stop indoctrinating kids. Mainly political and religious. Let kids think for themselves. Ask them how they feel instead of telling them how they should feel.
Treat others as you would like to be treated
Plant some trees if you can't plant trees try growing flowers.
You've lived in this city your whole life, If your destination is on the right side of the road don't cut across three lanes going 90 to make it to chipotle
Stop all people who smoke cigarettes while pumping gas, or even lighting one up. If you see an animal or child abandoned in a hot car, report it.
Not cheating
Take your money and where you spend it VERY seriously. If you don't agree with some companies practices, maybe not help finance them? Case in point: I don't agree with the way cattle and other animals are usually handled in slaughterhouses. I'm far from a vegetarian but I just decided won't eat meat unless it comes from a humane company (they are currently way more expensive and hard to come by so I eat seldomly).
Pick up our dog's poopy
Stop hitting kids.
The amount of people who argue back on this with just poor logic. Children are capable of understanding, learning and adapting, and if you keep hitting them to get them to do what you want then you will weaken their ability to reason and teach them to just accept violence as a motivator.
Avoiding palm oil
Start thinking of crickets as the other, other, white meat.
Support your local community. Avoid the destructive Corporations.
If you are able, take one of the parking spots a little further away. You’ll get a tiny bit more exercise and blood flow, and as my dad says “leave the good spots for the old guys”.
If you have children, teach them that "We are sharing this space." Why do we use trash cans? Because we are sharing this space and we want it to be clean and safe. Why don't we yell and scream on the bus? Because we are sharing this space and we don't want to bother everyone else. Why do we take the bus in the first place when there's a perfectly functional car in the driveway? Because we are sharing this planet and we should do our part to reduce emissions. And so on.
Now that my kid is older, I have time to do things like lobby at the Capitol and call my representatives and volunteer at the food bank when he's at school. When he asks why, I tell him that we are sharing this space, and since I have the time to help marginalized and poor people, I do those things.
Let people decide when they want to part from this world.
We need to buy clothes and items made from ethical manufacturers. I know some things are really hard to avoid but great, pro-labor companies are out there.
Also: adopt, and put kids up for adoption
Sell your car and live car free if you can! Take transit, ride a bike, and walk instead. Less greenhouse emissions, and it's fun, and you can see where you live in a new and present way.
Being kind, considerate and compassionate towards each other.
Consider other people. The large majority of the problems we have in society today are simply because of selfish decisions.
Go vegan !! For the planet, for the animals, and for your own health.
Shoutout to r/vegan, they have tons of resources just to help you get started.
Also, here are some links to great documentaries about veganism/vegetarianism:
[Cowspiracy](https://www.netflix.com/title/80033772?s=i&trkid=(null)
[What The Health](https://www.netflix.com/title/80174177?s=i&trkid=(null)
To choose to invest in the environment with our dollars. I've realized after spending a couple of years learning about our current state of the globe that we must learn to make (to some) less obvious choices:
1) Sometimes it costs more to support environmentally friendly practices
2) YOU DON'T NEED THE CARRY TRAY! TAKE TWO TRIPS!
3) Sustainability>convenience - see above point, other examples could be: opt-out of two-day shipping, walk instead of drive, carpool, drink without the straw...etc.
4) Less reliance on oil and gas the better
Edit: Got excited and hit send...twice Edit: Spelling.
Stop mass slaughter whole species of animals...
Don't choose Beef when it is a choice. When i found out that the average American beef consumption causes the same amount of emissions as my car I decided on a rule: don't choose Beef if given the choice. I won't not eat beef, like if I'm at a dinner I didn't choose my food at, or if it'd be rude to say no but those are rare. At chipotle? Get chicken or pork. At a burger joint? Do they have wings? It was surprisingly easy way to cut back for a Midwesterner (myself).
This was how I cut back, too. It was too hard to deal with people getting all upset when I didn’t eat what they served (why are people so emotional about food??) so I just eat it when I’m a guest somewhere and that’s what’s available. Works wonders.
Sounds like you and I are a lot a like when it comes to this, glad to hear it's not just me.
What's ethical is difficult. Some people, no matter what you throw at them, they're gonna keep chugging along in search of higher paying jobs, more financial security, and conventional success in the form of a nice car, college fund for the kids, and a paid off house.
But I think that's unethical. It's unethical to be so powerful, especially in America where there are only a few hundred million voters, to just sit there and watch. I think it's unethical to be complacent in the world, people need to stand up and see, they need to walk around and feel, they need to get close and taste just what the world is. It's unethical to follow a self help book when you could be formulating your own opinions and views on what's worth doing, what meaning is, what unites and divides humanity. My personal belief is it's unethical that so many people are bogging down progress, they're stopping the U.S. government from starting a UBI and a full on embrace of automation and artificial intelligence as a means of attaining all our hopes and dreams and wildest desires. It would be unethical to force the 1960's on everyone just because you think it was the golden age for americans. The only ethical thing is critical thought and communication in the hopes that the best way to go about living and running to world will emerge. Everything else is unethical because it's complacent in letting billions of people die and suffer that otherwise wouldn't. There's no more low hanging fruit when it comes to saving and improving lives, no more obvious things like vaccines and food stamps for the poor. That's because freedom from death and drudgery are the juiciest fruits of all.
Stop using one use water bottles and grocery bags. There's two huge easy choices
Stop drinking bottled water
Late to the party but use and contribute to Open Source,projects. The internet as,we know it exist because of the goodwill of a mass of people,who put in blood, sweat, and tears to make it what it is.
I will admit to using plastic bags. But we reuse them for multiple things.
And then, when they are close to dead we use them to pick up pet waste on walks.
The city requires pet waste to be in plastic. Feh.
Stop shopping at Walmart.
It is well documented on how Walmart is bad for local businesses, and even their vendors.
It is also financially smart in the long term to shop elsewhere. Everything at Walmart is cheaply made and will not last compared to similar items form other stores.
Start composting!
And me with you! Sorry, didn’t mean to come off like an ass.
The moment you realize something is wrong with somebody, ask them how they feel. And don't believe the first answer they give, insist for a real answer. That will make them feel a little bit better.
STOP. FUCKING. TEXTING. AND. DRIVING.
No really... Stop.
No you're still doing it. Stop.
It's fucking killing so many more people than anyone realises. People demonise the SHIT out of Drinking and Driving yet texting and driving is statistically 6x more dangerous than it. People don't treat it seriously at all. And it's going to kill someone you know and love in your lifetime in one way or any other. And it makes me angry. But let's focus on gun control and shit that hasn't been the direct cause of 330,000 people being injured in 2017 alone.. lets take our entire goddamn focus away from that and lobby the fuck out of autonomized driving until it goes away.
I don't know you don't have to agree with me but I think it's fucking egregious. And it's killing our families and friends and no one is batting an eye.
We should all be spamming taxation is theft on message boards on the internet.
Become an organ donor
Don't use disposable cups. Holy hell, what a waste. I just thought today that I probably use an average of two per day at work between coffee and water. If I work 45 weeks a year, that's like 500 cups or something I go through all by myself. Jeebus. I need to start using mugs.
If you go hiking or go on a walk bring back more litter than you started with.
Stop consuming so much water bottles
Let people off the train before you try to get on.
THE "ethical life choice" that should be instinctual, is "Never choose ethical life choices for others."
Firstly, you should always remember that you do not have to sneer. this is the same problem as with garbage. keep clean and love the world. that's exactly what you need to follow.
+1
STOP USING PLASTIC STRAWS
Make a stand against corruption.
Put shit back on the shelves where you found it in stores. Don't just sit it on a random shelf and claim, "Job Security". I've got plenty of other stuff to put away without having to put the stuff you were to lazy to walk back away.
Oh, and be nice to fast food workers, their jobs suck. And if they mess up, just ask nicely about it, even be sure to tell them it isn't a big deal if they just correct it for you. Did this recently at a Taco Bell and the workers were shocked I was so nice about it, they gave me an entire other free taco and free cinnamon twists just for being a nice guy. Being kind pays off.
Do you support clothing brands that utilize near slave labor and unsafe working conditions?
Greed conservatives querelously quaffing quince-juice quietly from quilted quarter-cups
Give all of your spare money to these guys: https://www.givewell.org/
wipe up any piss or shit you get on the toilet seat. refill the expended TP. clean up your hair shaving mess. do not refill the soap with water to try to extend its life.
not doing business with organizations that fund, advertise with, or otherwise provide functional support to those we consider 'evil'
whatever that may be
otherwise our anger is empty
There are situations where it's inevitable that you will be a cunt, but don't be a fucking cunt.
Don't look at a position with some power or authority over others, no matter how little or how much, as something to be exploited or an opportunity to screw over someone you have a grudge against.
On an individual level, the biggest thing in my life has been moderation in most things I do.
We should all be boycotting Reddit Gold until something is done about all the Nazis and Bots on here.
Eating beef really isn't great for the environment so I guess try to eat less hamburgers
Packaging- just honesty look at what you are throwing away and at least in my case be disgusted by the volume
Car pool when you can.
Buying music/movies/etc instead of torrenting
Don't have one nighters with drunk women.
Find a good charity and make a small monthly donation to it. Seriously if you have any expendable income, even enough to pick up fast food once in a while, it's so easy when just $10 or $15 a month is taken from your checking account to help a charity out. You don't even notice it.
Men named Hugh.
Deciding to use the higher water fountain to fill up your bottle instead of the lower one is immoral. It usually take a minute+ to fill a bottle and for that minute+ if you're using the top fountain you're inconveniencing everybody and making them use the lower one or wait. But when filling it doesn't matter which one you use. That always pisses me off so much. Lowering your hands are way easier than lowering your face.
Be an organ donor
Being kind. That's it. Just take some time out of your day to be kind to another person. You can do anything, from saying hello at the bus stop, or striking up conversation with someone who looks lonely or nervous. Even just smiling is infectious. I'm trying to be a little nicer each day, and I'm trying to do something kind as well. Not only does it feel good to help someone but you just might make their day too!
Stop worrying about what two consenting adults do with their genitals. It doesn't affect you in the slightest.
Stop using double heavy shotguns in Fortnite!
Don't walk backwards in a bar. You will spill your drinks and someone else's. It's really not that hard to do and keeps every happy with less bumpies
Apparently mass genocide of white people according to r/insanepeoplefacebook and r/cringeanarchy
Get off your phone when driving. It’s not hard to have an attention span longer than 15 seconds at a stop light.
Care about the just treatment of people unlike you.
The easiest one is to speak out against horrible things around you. Its sad how often people say its not my business or not my place when someone is being hurt even to the point of watching someone get physically abused and just thinking that someone else will call 911 or step in. Little things like shooting down racist or sexist speak in the workplace or at school or bullying/excluding actions can change someones life or show the party at fault that its not okay. Don't wait around for the hero step up and be one.
Be honest and kind to yourselves and each other. Be willing to stand up for what you think is right, and to sit back down if you turn out to be wrong.
Understand the impact of your decisions. Buying/using cocaine supports human trafficking, slavery, etc. not just the drug game. Also why the local free-range grass-fed stuff is so important.
No single-use things unless it's absolutely necessary.
I get it for things like medical supplies, but for plates, glasses, straws, etcetera, we should make all the possible efforts to avoid them. And if we have to, we should go for carboard, not plastic.
Only getting your animals from reputable sources. I’m speaking mostly to cats and dogs here although I’m sure other companion pets fall into the same category.
There are two main ways to get your pets ethically; a responsible breeder who does full health checks, is breeding to a healthy standard and who will take back their pets if you can’t care for them, a shelter or rescue.
If you get your pet from a mill, puppy store, Craigslist/kijiji or your neighbour who breeds for fun you are perpetuating the problem that is causing thousands of dogs and cats to be euthanized in shelters every year. Your money is literally going to fund the problem. Do a short bit of googling before you pay 300$ for the 6 week old Craigslist Pitt Lab mix puppy.
We should stop eating/using Nutella and anything with Palm Oil in.
Serve the community you live in. Not just by paying taxes or running for government. I mean really serve your community. Help clean up a park, start a book drive for your school or library. Mow or rake your elderly neighbor's lawn, shovel your neighbor's sidewalk if you are already out doing yours.
The thing is to just take a little time from your life and give back.
Recycle. I was traveling to the states and in the 5 states I've been to, none of them recycle. I felt really guilty throwing bottles and paper on the garbage when I've been conditioned to using the blue bin.
PS: I'm from Canadia
Lead a CO2 neutral life.
This can be through compensation. Some.are very effective such as coolearth.
Diversify your spending. Move away from giant producers as much as you can. Purchase from small businesses and small producers.
no straws
Letting friends go when they are holding you back
I always feel like investing just a bit more in biodegradable cleaners, bags, etc would be a good step. If everyone did, then the big companies would have to change their target audience
Get yourself checked for STIs every so often or after a short relationship. It's super easy and you can even order a home kit that you mail in.
Just make the switch to reusable grocery bags. It’s not that difficult once you get in the habit of using/packing/keeping them in your car.
Use your blinker.
Don’t be a jerk about merging. It’s a zipper people.
I've always said that the definition of having morals means doing the right thing - even if nobody will know, or if there's no possibility you'll get in trouble.
Also important: you're only in control of what you do, not what others do. Don't use their bad behavior to excuse your own.
Don't take money from people through deception it hurts them.
https://youtu.be/18Ueo_nlKKE
Well according to normative ethics- all of em
Whether we should continue to accept unethical behavior ascribed to corporations that we would not partake in ourselves yet reap the benefits and profits of the corporation’s behavior. Sin by proxy.
Try do judge people by their intentions and not their actions. Just like you would judge yourself.
Treat driving as a team sport, not an every-man-for-himself deal. If you think of the objective of driving as ‘get everyone safely from their origin to their destination’ then we’d have a lot less stress, dickishness, and accidents. It’s not a contest- it’s a group activity.
Itt: common sense
Changing your mind, opinions, and beliefs. Its ok to change your mind when presented with new evidence/facts. Changing your mind isnt flip flopping.
Always do the right thing.
You usually know what it is. Just do it.
Eating locally produced food.
Don't play your shitty music on the train
Not to be a time thief
Turn off the lights when you leave the room. Don't leave faucets / showers running.
Donate blood
Buying products from sustainable companies instead of recklessly buying what is cheapest or what we're used to.
Don't pressure people into sex and always make sure you get affirmative consent.
Learning how to be truly empathetic and not just sympathetic. I personally believe that the single biggest issue facing the human population right now is the lack of true empathy and perspective when it comes to our fellow human beings. For many, it comes unintentionally and I can't blame anyone because it's easy to get caught up in life never taking the time to be reflective. For others, it's a choice of wilful ignorance leading to a path of pure selfishness and an inability to care for others.
I would advise everyone to make a list of everything they are thankful for and try to imagine how much all of those things mean to you. Now try to imagine if one of those things was stolen away or never existed to begin with. How does that make you feel? Now picture people (family,relatives, neighbors, citizens, immigrants, citizens of other countries) and imagine how they feel being without the things you cherish or without the things they cherish as much as you feel about your list of things.
We should drive and ride obeying those traffic laws and knowing that even if we don’t make a mistake, someone else might. And it might cost a life. (Source: I’m a cyclist and don’t want to die.)
Be ok with admitting when you’re wrong. Be the kind of person that will readily concede a point in an argument.
Make an effort to tip delivery drivers, servers etc. Their hourly rate is lower for a reason
Stop using plastic "throwaway" straws - they are so temporary!! This video was l needed to see to never use tossaway straws again. I purchased some glass ones with a hard carrying case and they have been so awesome. There are also meal and paper options too! It's something that is an easy, little change and I feel like can make the world of difference.
Give away some money! Even small amounts of charitable giving can achieve tremendous amounts of good, if it goes to the right places. Thankfully, there are organizations and people who spend all their time researching precisely where that might be.
Ive been working on a paper for a philosophy class for weeks, trying to work out the logic of the ethical system i support (and along the way, ive made clarifications about my beliefs). When i had a good idea of what i thought, i approacher my professor who basically said that ive created Nussbaum's capability approach. In general the best way to live i think is by performing actions which either support or do not diminish the fundamental capabilities that people need to flourish. As to what those capabilities and actions are, thats for you to figure out using reason.
Not comparing school shooting survivors to nazis....
Question, how is a living will an ethical life choice? There's nothing ethically good or bad about it.
Not putting cum in peoples creme doughnuts ...
Just do the right thing, not the easy thing. They’re rarely the same.
As a former cashier and cart pusher, smile to them, and put your cart away. It always seemed like when one person would put a cart in a random spot, more people followed. It doesn't take more than a few seconds, and always really annoyed me when people would just give dirty looks in response to my hello, or stare at me as they pushed a cart into a pile and hurriedly walk away avoiding all eye contact after.
Spend time with our youth. They’re awesome.. they just have been brought up on electronics and don’t know what playing outside is or board games. Pull the device out their hands and take them outside to play.
Being nice to people
One paper towel per wash
Not smoking, excessive drinking
Donate money to charity and save some lives.
Revenge is dumb. Never do it
Being aware what we are buying. Where its coming from, who we are paying and who we aren't. It's not demanding you go local, vegan, and completely zero waste, but maybe just educating yourself and making informed choices.
Pick up after yourself. So many times I just see people leave garbage everywhere.
Make the decision to live up to your potential.
It breaks my heart to see how so many people can just explain away their lack of success (in whatever field it might be) with excuse after excuse after excuse.. especially when sometimes they are so freaking close to becoming amazing!!
There’s always something you can do. Always. Want proof?
It just takes a DECISION to do it.
The understanding that it’s our ethical duty to be the best we can be. It’s our duty to the future, to our children and their children.
Hunting or shopping at farmers markets instead of chain grocery stores and participating in factory farming.
Going vegan.
Recycling. Using less disposable packaging and products. Migrating away from fossil fuel consumption and towards green/renewable energy. Voting. Volunteering, maybe at animal shelters. Eatiing less meat. Biking and walking more.
Recycling. Plastic is earth-poison.
To address animal ethics for the OP: Don't use chewing gum with Xylitol if you're a dog owner and don't spit that type of gum out on the street where dogs can eat it as it's toxic for dogs and can be fatal at a certain quantity - dispose of it in the trash.
Some others: more plant-based eating, don't use plastic straws, vote, consider adopting/fostering instead of "having your own", get vaccinated (protects you and everyone you get in contact with), carpool or use public transit, purchase a eco-friendly car, don't smoke (reduced 2nd hand exposure, less money to the tobacco industry).
Stop using so many animal products. The large methane emissions and fishless oceans can be avoided now if we all just cut back!
VOTE
no car for trips less then 5
Don't travel to countries run by dictators. Not russia, not turkey, not Saudi, not the phillipines, to name a few.
Pro voucher education
Vote
Here's the best one! We knock down the fast food industry and build 3 story green houses for every one destroyed and if we don't need a green house there we set a practice firm for educational training. Let's eat healthy in America!
We should do our best to not use anything plastic.
Maintain a healthy weight to allow more resources for those who care about their own health and the health of the planet.
As someone who needs to wear and use disposable adult diapers, I wish I had the funds to buy a variety of cloth diapers instead. I wish that went for everyone who needs them. Of all ages.
From a cold, rational viewpoint euthanizing the elderly seems like a thing we could do.
Revolting.
Checking to make sure the restaurant you’re about to go to sit in and eat at isn’t closing within the next ~30 minutes or so.
Depending on the type of restaurant, give or take some time off of that.
No more, ‘oh you’re closing in 5 minutes?! We made it just in time, then!’
Take a moment to realize that nobody is out there to get you. They're just trying to benefit themselves. So next someone cuts in front of you in traffic, instead of getting angry, try to realize that it really isn't actually anything personal.
Pick your fucking garbage up and dont beat animals.
Stop enabling people who work against your best interest, no matter how much they attempt to extort or threaten you.
Buying from woodlandshades.com
Not murdering each other
If you're in the left lane, pass and get off the phone.
This goes for you too, Brits.
Dont use the services of organized crime. If we all cut their funding, they'd be out of business.
So many people use drugs, contraband cigarettes, prostitutes, etc... and never stop to think of the people hurt by the organized crime behind these "services".
Soon, marijuana will be legal in Canada. I do not smoke, but in my opinion anybody who intends to keep purchasing it from illegal sources after it becomes legal and is freely available is making an extremely unethical decision.
There is no excuse to keep helping and encouraging criminals, when there's a legal alternative around. NONE!
Stop treating health care professionals as ranting pinatas. Yes emotions are high when loved ones need medical attention, but unfounded raging on a health care provider should become illegal. Holy crap the amount of shit we go through
please stop using plastics.
For every plastic product we have there's an (actual) reusable product you can use.
It's not "hippy dippy" to refuse a plastic straw-- it's the responsible thing to do.
Plastic never biodegrades; it leaks toxic chemicals, and straws and bags and plastic rings get caught on (or in) animals and they die slow and painful deaths.
Right now in the ocean, plastic outnumbers sealife 6:1. We can clean it up and take it out but it's never going to go away. All we can do is contain it and STOP MAKING PLASTIC PRODUCTS. If you want to help, the donate to the oceancleanup or apply or whatever but primarily just stop using plastic goods. Bring compostable spoons and forks with you if you're going somewhere where you would use plastic forks instead. Buy compostable beeswax wraps instead of cling wrap. There was a time we existed without plastic. It's not impossible.
Palm oil boycott NOW! We are destroying the most diverse rain forest (Borneo). Which is even worse than clearing the amazonian rain forest.
For fuck's sake, study general stuff before you need it. Get that second language ready. Have your bases covered and regularly check that you're keeping up to date with the general consensus about different topics. Don't wait until you need to take an exam on any topic to study the basics and have a solid footing on academic formation. You may never need it but if you do, you'll be so fucking thankful you don't have to cram years of theory in a couple months before an important, life changing exam.
Think before speaking or posting on the internet.
Volunteer! It’s good fun and you meet other interesting people.
Leave it better than you found it. 99% of the time it is easy... the other 1% is it worth it.
Should I send that dick pic?
Flashing your lights to other drivers when you see a cop posted up the road.
Try to think of yourself less. Humility is a virtue
Whenever you go to the drive thru, pick up an extra sandwich or two. Most places have a dollar menu. Hand it off to the guy holding the cardboard sign looking for work/food. It's a selfless act that will make you feel good and that greasy burger will sit better in your stomach.
It's better to give them prepackaged nonperishable food, like a protein bar. Many beggars will refuse food that isn't prepackaged and still sealed. It's much too easy for somebody to add an undesirable ingredient into that cheeseburger, like a generous dose of hot sauce, or dog poop, or broken glass.
deciding not to do something bad isnt the same as doing something good
When walking in public or through buildings or restaurants, be mindful of people around you. Know when there's about to be a tight space around you, and let people through when you can - especially if they aren't aware of the impending congestion.
You get tons of smiles by doing this simple little act, tons of thank yous, hell you even get phone numbers in the right situation.
Spatial awareness is easy if you learn how to let go of the useless shit you constantly think about when you aren't actively doing something. Save it for when you're not up in other people's space.
Re-racking your damn weights at the gym!
Thinking how you would feel if someone said to you what you just told them. If we were all nicer and patient and polite, we'd be in a much better place as a society.
Always put salt on your pasta while boiling.
Stop buying into shit media that seeks to polarize people. Get out of the echo chamber of self reinforcing ideas. Challenge yourself by opening up to other points of view. Engage in healthy discussion with others and be respectful of their opinions.
Stop smoking. Bring the hate
Don't tie your entire meaning to other people. It's more of an ethical choice you can make for yourself rather than others.
Put religion away cuz a sacred text in human hands is a gun in a baby's hands. And leave our planet cuz we love it.
Start choosing better your acquaintances and cut ties with people that drag you to their mediocrity
Sort by new
Choose love over fear.
Donnie Darko
Tipping Op's mom for her generous services.
Stop buying bottled water (unless it's the only safe drinking water
Use as little plastic as possible. Be conscious of your trash. See yourself as an animal, not as a superior species with a God-given right to be shitty to other animals like inferiors and treat the Earth like your own personal dumpster.
u/crazyloco43 this thread is really wholesome and I want you to read it pls
I already have, you have good taste :)
Wholesome is never a bad choice
Btw I'm like running out of music to listen to, mind suggesting any artists or bands Please?
Don't use Facebook.
Buy a freaking Tesla! Ecologicaly speaking of course. Plus, it's super badass!
Learn about the companies you buy from. Start deciding who you no longer want to support, based on the way they treat their employees and the environment, and their track record for political meddling.
Finish your fucking food. You know the whole old saying that mothers used to tell their children about how there's hungry kids starving in Africa or whatever? Yeah. It was true then, and it's still fucking true now. By wasting food, by throwing away perfectly edible things that you could eat, you are directly disrespecting people who might actually literally be willing to kill another person for it. I'm sorry, though, I forgot to mention. It's not just kids starving in Africa. It's actually people living rough on the streets of your town or your city who don't have enough money for three square meals a day who you are also disrespecting by throwing that food away. Do you work at a food service industry business? Does this business throw away all unused food from the day? Do you have the time/ability to either take it home for yourself so that it's not wasted, or to take it to homeless people that may or may not be setting up for the night around where the business is? Do so. Every ounce of wasted food is an ounce that isn't going into the stomach of someone who desperately needs it.
Now, this next part, not everyone might agree with. That's understandable. You don't have to. This is just how I feel, but I know why others might not.
You're not just disrespecting your fellow, starving human beings by throwing away your food, you're also disrespecting the living creature that died to produce that food for you. Every single piece of food you eat is, in one way or another, the corpse of a creature, plant or animal, that was previously living. (Unless you're one of those people that exclusively eat honey, or something, but even then you're still harming the bee colony.) Regardless, it's not even a vegetarian or a vegan issue. You can bite down into a juicy beef burger every day. It's up to you. (The cattle industry's effect on the environment is for another post.) But if you throw away half of that juicy beef burger, then you're not only disrespecting the previously mentioned people who could be eating that burger, instead, but you're also disrespecting the cow that died so that you could eat that juicy beef burger. Throwing away a salad? Might seem silly, but now you're disrespecting the albeit far less sapient lives of the lettuce, carrots, onions, etc. that died so that salad could be made for you.
There was, once upon a time (God, this sounds so pretentious and edgy, and I apologize for it) when people actually fucking respected the animals they had to kill in order to eat and survive. They said a prayer for its spirit, or just acknowledged the life they had just taken. Maybe that's the issue, I suppose. Very few people kill the meat that they eat, or harvest the plants they used in their food (Which is perfectly fine, I'm nowhere near going to claim that everyone needs to go out and kill the cow or the chicken or harvest the apples or carrots they want to eat, I'm not some luddite anarcho-primitivist or anything.) so they lack the ability to recognize that the food they eat was previously a living creature. Thus, it's difficult for them to respect the food as such: The remains of a plant or animal that has died in order to provide you with sustenance.
Have some fucking respect and finish your fucking food.
That escalated quickly...
Smaller carbon footprints
Don't send nudes unless you're specifically requested to
Registering as an organ, eye and tissue donor. You can do it in less than 2 minutes at https://registerme.org/
Eat less meat. You don't have to go full vegan. Just eat less meat.
Don’t cheat. Please.
Taking most of these hardened soft thinking vegans in this thread and tossing them into a pit with 6 hungry bears and have them try to convince the bears they are Omnivores by choice, not biologically and to adopt a meatless and humane lifestyle like they have so 'bravely' done
I heard this recently “use your energy to help other be free and happy” short and simple but good
Probably not eating animals. Not vegan, just aware that I'm not being moral.
Vote on the issues (whatever that may be), not the political party
Be kinder to people.
Finish high school.
Get a job, any job.
Get married before having kids.
I feel that how we spend our money is our actual vote in our current society. If you support it with your money you support it's practices as will.
Food service is one of the shittiest jobs I know. Please be kind and try to be patient with servers, especially on busy nights. They aren't making an effort to ignore you and yelling at them won't make them work faster to help you.
Balancing the cynicism so present in many with the appreciation of the good in line life, however small
Give to the homeless, brush your teeth morning and evening, always to the stairs, pay your taxes, if you find money on the floor donate it. Don't put our elderly in homes. If someone's hungry or in need and you can afford to help, help them even if you don't know them. Atleast visit one place you haven't visited before once a month.
If you see a homeless person, smile at them as you would passing any other person (I'm in the midwest so we do this). Being homeless sucks, it strips you of your dignity. I've never been homeless but I've been close. I can feel their pain just by imagining what its like to be passed by people and ignored like you don't exist. Just treat them like humans. Treating other people like dignified humans is the smallest thing you can do that will have a strong positive impact on someone's life.
Leave everything a little bit cleaner than it was when you got there.
“There is no ethical consumption under capitalism”... what do y’all think? I know the question is asking about choices, but I see some people commenting about ways to consume ethically (or consume less unethically i guess)
But you can ethically consume under.... what? exactly?
Try to act like the magnificent person your dog thinks you are.
Cruelty free make up choices don’t mean expensive indie brands! Lots of brands are great and don’t test on animals
Don't kill people and empathize will those that have lost loved ones.
Stop using plastic
We should all be organ donors. There are so many people waiting out there for an organ they need to live. And it's not like you're using it any more.
I would be so honored if I could save someone's life through my death. One last act of kindness before I go.
Threat other how you self wants to be treated
z
Socrates tried to encourage people to live their lives better, not to blindly do what the stauts quo does, and society murdered him. Be careful with your questions, OP. (Jk)
Recycle your electronics when you are done with them.
Eschew social media and deal with people in the now.
Stop stealing. From stores and other people. It's just wrong.
If you smoke, try to put them in butt-stops, or ash them on the ground and throw the extinguished butt in the trash.
Don’t release helium balloons in memory of someone or for a special occasion.
Plant a tree or a favourite plant. Something you can actually watch grow year after year. Something that isn’t going to pollute the oceans.
Treat others as you’d like to be treated. (This includes people, animals & the planet).
This may have already been said but, try to buy items with the least packaging. Less waste! :)
I would really appreciate if the people who accidentally back up into other people's cars in grocery store parking lots at 10pm while the owner is shopping would do the ethical thing like leave a note or compensation for damages if insurance isn't an option for you.
Not but clothes from big brandes made in China, Taiwan or other countries that are known to hold sweatshops.
Ask yourself: What beliefs do I have today that, in the future, upon reflection, I will be ashamed for having believed?
To be win-win. With other people. If something is good to turn out to be a loss on one side, stop, and figure out a way to switch it to win-win.
Pick up a little bit of litter whenever you see it. If everyone picked up a little bit of litter, there wouldn't be any very quickly.
Small but simple: Even if you have Amazon Prime, select no-rush delivery unless you really need something urgently. It will allow the shipments to be delivered in optimally filled trucks, conserving fuel and lowering greenhouse gas emissions.
2-day prime delivery may be free to your wallet, but it requires half-empty trucks to run all over the country every day.
Consider the amount of plastic you use and your impact on the environment. Try to cut down on your meat intake.
Smiling at people
Recycling, especially plastic. As the primary manipulators of earth to extract its resources, we need to be meticulous in our responsibility to preserve it. The further we drift from our symbiotic relationship to Gaia, the closer we get to a required douching from her. This planet has been cleansed before, and it will happen again.
Consider donating your spare CPU time to the WorldCommunityGrid.org to help fight Cancer Aids and a whole host of other good causes.
This thread is in desperate need of u/Peter_Singer.
Don't do unto others as they wouldn't have you do unto them. It sounds simple, but it's really quite profound when you truly start to become conscious of how your words and actions really affect others.
Get long term care insurance when you're eligible to, and talk to an elder law attorney sometime in your 50s.. Too many people don't plan for their later years or just assume their kids will care for them.
Or they don't think about it until it's too late. Medicaid iirc pays for almost half of all nursing home care. But they have a look back period. Say in 2015 you gave one of your kids $10k. In 2018 you have a stroke, and in 2019 you need to go to a nursing home. That $10k will come back to haunt you.
It's unethical to expect your kids to give you so much of their life to care for you, and unfortunately many people have that entitled attitude. 100 years ago, caregiving might last up to a few months and since families were larger, the work was divided. Now caregiving can easily last decades and it usually falls to 1 or 2 people, very often daughters.
I spend 20 - 30 hours a week caring for my dad. His housework, grocery shopping, insurance, doctors, social workers, bills, searching for equipment to help his mobility. I have 2 very young kids, 1 with special needs. My dad is mentally sound and desperate not to go to a nursing home. My life is exhausting, and it hasn't even been 2 years of caregiving yet. I could spend another 10 years, maybe more, doing this.
So, talk to an elder law attorney about how to handle your assets and fund your later life care.
I would not dream of burdening my sons with caregiving when they're likely just having their own families. It often feels like I'm in hell - my oldest is just a toddler
ITT: Small acts of considerate behaviour, unrelated to ethics.
This is definitely not simple, but make sure any money you invest, for pension, savings or whatever, doesn't fund villains, like arms manufacturers, companies who exploit people, surveil people, or are miserable bastards in general. That includes most large companies today, I know.
Put your money in an ethical bank if that exists where you live.
Stay off /r/unethicallifeprotips
Probably too late but a lot of these can be summed up as "leave it better than you found it"
stop working for companies
Go out and volunteer somewhere that needs you.
Don’t litter. And if you see some trash on the ground that’s not yours, just pick it up. You’ll live, and the environment will be better for it.
(Pick it up as long as it’s not like, a used needle)
My input: say nice things behinds people's back, stop gossiping behind people's back, and actively step in to limit others' gossiping behind people's back. These three things are ranked from easiest to hardest.
More people gossip than they admit, because "gossip" is a word we associate with high school girls or old ladies on a porch. In reality, it's just unnecessary shit talking that you do which could potentially harm someone's reputation. Or it's just unnecessary shit talking. Either way, it sucks.
I'm personally trying to challenge myself to stop doing this. I know sometimes I'll have to vent about someone I don't like, but I'll make sure to vent to someone who is removed far from the social circle as possible. So I only bitch about co-workers to my SO.
And when I bitch, I still try to use "I statements" and try not to generalize or just insult. Instead of saying "so and so is such an idiot" I'll say something like "it really pissed me off that I had to come in early because so and so wrote the schedule wrong." Even the latter is kind of harsh but you get the point. I statements make it so that if I ever have to confront someone I'm already well practiced in being assertive but not aggressive.
I've also been trying to say genuinely nice compliments even if the subject will never hear about it. I have a co-worker that does this when we talk and I once caught wind of something nice he said about me and it just feels that much better.
Cutting out single use plastics. Use cloth grocery bags. Buy small and local when possible. Stop using disposable plates and cutlery at home. Use a reusable straw or none at all
Being brutally honest with yourself and then learning to accept yourself. For those wondering why it's ethical: because you'll probably treat those around you better if you have a better understanding about who you are or try to be.
Rethinking our own waste. The waste of food, of power, if water, of belongings, of time, of money... of the advantages we have and pretend in some way we earned them because we are lucky enough to born with choices.
We just consume and waste more than any wise person should... and every tiny step we make, to reverse this trend is the most wonderful thing we can do each and every day for all the other human beings on this planet.
Take your money and where you spend it VERY seriously. If you don't agree with some companies practices, maybe not help finance them? Case in point: I don't agree with the way cattle and other animals are usually handled in slaughterhouses. I'm far from a vegetarian but I just decided won't eat meat unless it comes from a humane company (they are currently way more expensive and hard to come by so I eat seldomly).
Plant a tree.
Ethically clothing choices. Not just the labor & pollution that goes into making them, but don't buy "disposable" clothing ie Tshirts that only last a few months if you can afford not to.
Greener dish/laundry detergents, shampoos, soaps, etc. These are often daily dumpings of numerous chemicals down drains and ultimately into the ocean, killing fish or being ingested by them (food supply) and polluting water which we may soon turn to as a drinking supply (via desalination). If you're not ready to cut meat out of your diet, please just cut beef. Largest and worst impact -reason for most of Amazon deforestation (which produces >20% of world's oxygen and hosts millions of species). But also, cut meat because factory farms are fucked and beans = more than enough protein with every meal. Really not necessary to kill other beings when there are less expensive, healthier alternatives that don't involve killing. Or lifelong confinement. Also properly dispose of waste. See way too many people toss recyclables in dumpsters and it's not acceptable, those things aren't trash and could be repurposed into various useful things if they weren't being sent to landfills/the ocean.
Thank everyone for their effort, regardless of if it's "their job".
Follow your dream at all costs! ---> https://youtu.be/Na0LmcK7R9g
Everywhere one goes, try to make a little better.
Even small actions are infinitely more than doing nothing.
All living things have the same right to a life of quality as we do.
Helping others helps us, and we should all strive to become able teachers. We learn and do and live for the next generation.
If you find yourself raising your hands in anger, that is the time to lower them.
Forgiveness is a much greater thing, even if it can feel lesser, than anger.
And anger is like fire. The more one feeds it the more one grows. The more one ignore it, the more one dies.
And we should have greater patience for things that annoy us.
When you see a young couple having a hard time in public with a toddler or young child, trying to keep their cool and soothe their kid, don't give them a dirty look. Go over and tell them, hey, i know this is the hard part, but I think you're doing great. Then, if you have some, offer them a little tub of play doh for their kid to help calm them down (recently discovered this miracle trick with my own toddler).
Every day as parents we doubt ourselves, second guess our decisions, and feel very judged when we take our kids in public and the decide to act like kids do sometimes. A nice word from a kind stranger reaffirming your ability as a parent, goes a really long way.
you’re doing a great job :)
Just to be nice to everyone. Follow the teachings of Dalton. Be nice until it's time to not be nice.
I got some solar panels and a plug-in hybrid, not because I’m a good person but because after some moderate research it seems like a good financial decision. This was right before Trump tariffs however...
Just wasn’t sure how to work it without sounding rude
Giving a shit about people in other countries that are going through a terrible time. It is so easy to just skim through news articles be sad for 2 secs and go on with our life's.
Voting in competent leaders and kicking out shitty ones, banding together to make sure the future we get is the one “We the People” want and not “them the rich” want
Work retail for at least 2 years so you can learn to respect people working jobs you consider “beneath” you
Hopefully, in a couple of years, clean meat
I clean meat now. You don't want to just throw the fish in a pan. Gotta clean it.
Having fucking manners (excuse me). I hate going to a restaurant or store and someone is utterly oblivious about their attitude/demeanor towards someone who is being paid a low wage to help them.
We could care as much about the person who is dirty and sleeping in the street as we do about our dog, who has insurance at the veterinarian and their toe nails painted.
Germinate with care
Learning to appreciate good classical music
Buy milk priced well enough that the farmers see decent money from it. Farmers feed us all, they should be paid well in return.
I’m in, how do we do that?
Buy $3 milk. Basically don't buy milk from Wal-Mart, Sam's Club or Target.
Oh ok, will do.
Compassion.
Being generous. I started setting aside 10% of my income in a separate bank account to use for giving. In just the first couple months it's been a real source of joy for me and a reminder that what I have is a gift itself. I encourage everyone to try it (use any amount you can). It also helps to have a written budget each month to keep track and determine what you can afford.
PLEASE be aware of how loud you're speaking in an office environment. There's one guy near me who must speak TWICE as loud as he needs to on the phone. And I've already mentioned it to him. I wear noise cancelling headphones and play white noise, but I'm STILL aware of this belting voice. (I don't want to go deaf blasting white noise, either). Guess I'm gonna have to speak to him again. But I SHOULDN'T have to.
Learn and understand the meaning of Sonder. It actually makes people watching more enjoyable and adds some humanity to your life.
Pick up after your dogs, holy hell. Nothing is worse than taking my dog out to my apartment's courtyard and accidentally stepping in dog shit. I live in a big city and it can be hard to find pet-friendly apartments, and I feel like part of the reason why is because of the super common problem of people not picking up after their dogs. Not to mention that dog feces can spread disease to other animals :(
1: Knowing that it's good to acknowledge failure and weakness, but bad to ignore them and stay weak. 2: Not keep a grudge against someone, because one day you'll need their help. 3: Understand that favours aren't meant to be recorded and used against others, such as telling someone to pay you back for cleaning the dishes and other chores.
Try your best to make everywhere you go a little better. Wipedown the public restroom counter, Re-rack the weights at your gym, enjoy the delicious taste of Coors light®, clean your room. If you live with your parents, take out the trash and do some dishes without being asked.
Say "no" to product placement.
Delete Facebook , reddit your next !
Reddit is at least as bad as Facebook.
As a retail worker, I want to advise everyone that when you take something off the shelf at a store put it back in the right spot and make it look neat against the lip of the counter. Seriously. It’s not that hard to put one or two things back that you found. What’s hard is having 5+ carts full of reshop (items that need to go back onto the floor after being misplaced) that has been collected over multiple customers. One of the biggest asshole move a customer makes to retail workers is throwing an unwanted item in the wrong spot due to laziness or even putting it /near/ the correct location but sloppily throwing it down rather than making it straight and tidy. It takes hours to go through a medium sized store just to reorganize every aisle and end cap. And if you see an employee straightening up, please don’t trail behind them messing up what they just reorganized.
Also, if you break or spill something in a store just tell an employee. We much prefer that rather than stumbling upon a huge mess that no one has bothered to bring to anyone’s attention. You will not get in trouble and it saves us from possibly injuring someone else (slipping/tripping) and it shows other customers that we are not a dirty or messy store.
Rant over.
Buying clothes from retailers who don't use sweatshops.
Becoming an organ donor
Whether the ends justifies the means.
Consider reducing your meat purchases and overall carbon foot print. Consider donating blood. Consider growing out your hair to donate for people (usually kids) with cancer to have wigs. Consider donating a little bit of every paycheck to a charity you value - even if you do not make a lot, if you live in the first world it's usually possible to set aside $5 or even less. Make sure your basic needs and the basic needs of your friends and loved ones are met first of course. Consider looking into your bank and potentially switching if they conduct shady business funded by your money. Consider becoming politically active locally, constructively, consistently. Most of all, consider taking some time every week to yourself to self-reflect. Time where you will not be interrupted, where you are not distracted. Meditate if you like.
Shower
Never accept anything as a fact if it came along with an opinion.
edit - grammar
Eliminating single use plastic. We are at a breaking point for the environment and if WE do not change, we are leaving our children a world with water wars.
Conservation to save the earth. Stop buying plastic, carpool, recycle everything properly, repurpose, make your home more effecient, stop buying SUVs for no reason, demand more efficient cars, elect politicians that don't deny science because they don't understand it, turn everything off when not in use, teach your kids these as a non-negotiable absolute must, and keep your fingers crossed that maybe just maybe we can eek out an existence on this planet longer than the next 100 years.
live within our means. That is also freedom.
Leave things better than they were when you encountered them.
Try to leave a place in better condition then when you found it.
Treat others the way you would like to be treated.
When you can afford to pay for that game that you love but pirated a couple years back.
If you can afford to. Buy eggs that are not from battery farm caged hens.
Put your litter in a bin and if there isn't one you carry it or put it in your pocket/bag until there is one.
Deactivate Facebook. Odds are you already have the phone numbers and email addresses of the people you actually want to contact or be contacted by.
Open Area 51.
Eliminate single use plastic from our lives as much as we can...
Be kind and be forgiving. It's healthier for you and a moment of patience can mean a lot to another person.
Consider the behavior of companies you invest in. I learned that my husband's aunt and uncle invested in Freeport McMoran, and I was really disappointed.
If you see a vehicle with a “How am I driving?” sticker on it, call the number and tell them the driver is driving well, if they are. I did this a few weeks ago when somebody let me merge onto the highway. The person answering the phone was noticeably surprised that I was calling to praise the driver instead of calling to talk shit. It made my day to know I did something nice for this driver and I hope my message made it to the driver and made his day better as well.
The Anarchists have a saying: "Same or Better".
It means leaving things in the same or better condition as when you found them.
I've decided for any holidays where my family gives gifts I will be having them make a donation to a charity of my choosing instead. I can't wait to have my grandparents make a donation to NAACP. We'll be a glorious feeling ;-)
As someone that works with kids I try to impart the idea of leaving a place better than it was before we got there.
Moving closer to the center of the city. Suburbs are generally financial unsustainable and socially irresponsible. The higher the population density of a city, the better. The less a city spreads out (sprawl), the better.
[deleted]
First of all, you do know now nor do not care how to write a proper sentence. Try using punctuation sometime.
Suburbs are generally unsustainable due to the fact that they're automobile centric. Can you walk from your home to a store to buy a popsicle? Or a loaf of bread without using your car? Can you take mass transit easily to your job from your suburban home?
Too many resources are required for the suburbs than in cities. Electricity, natural gas, etc. Miles driven to get to work, to get groceries. Big waste of resources.
This is what MeGotShadowBanned was referring to, or so I projected on she or he. Many people, to this day, think cities and denser populations are 'dirtier' and more polluting than the suburbs. That's hardly the case.
Cities (North America) used to have factories, terrible crime ridden public transit, etc. That's mostly no longer the case. Suburbanites in the US and Canada use much more resources: electricity, petrol, water ,miles driven, etc. than city dwellers. That's what, I hope MeGoShadowbanned, was eluding to.
That's what, I hope MeGoShadowbanned, was eluding to.
This should be rewritten as the following:
That's what, I hope, MeGoShadowbanned was eluding to.
Grammar is terrible now?
We should really consider helping out with the droid attack on the wookies. It really is a system we can't afford to lose
How dare you.
Wookies are people, too. Your lack of respect of the Wookie by not capitalizing their beautiful, hairy race is astounding. Why do you hate, as you wrote, "wookie" without the damn respect they deserve: Wookie.
You're a monster. Too bad you weren't on Alderan when Grand Moff Tarkin ordered its destruction by way of the firepower of the first Death Star.
I'm part Wookie so I take your comment very seriously.
I think you misunderstand. Good relations with the Wookies, I have. It is a system we cannot afford to lose and we must go assist
Here's something. Take the time and energy to use facts to come to rational conclusions. You'll benefit yourself and the whole world!
Bike to work. It keeps you in shape and puts a smile on your face.
...you just made my commute 5 hours 1 way.
Z
Minding your own fuckin business no matter the persons title to you.
Tote guns and shoot dice.
Probably late to this thread but I keep two different bins in my room. One for recycling like paper and hard plastics and the other for general rubbish. It helps having separate bins so you don't have to separate your rubbish later.
Take the time to reflect. Some of the worst things we do are not born of malice but of ignorance, neglect, or lack of thought.
Don’t buy clothes from fast fashion retailers.
Reusable bags at grocery stores please
Stop eating meat. I have not done this myself, although I was vegetarian for several years. But damn, there is just not an ethical argument that I have been able to think of for eating meat. It's just not necessary in societies with food abundance, and it causes so much economic, health, and environmental harm. Not to mention the essential cruelty of killing another creature for convenience or tastiness, combined with the absolute horror and torture of modern factory farming techniques. I know all of the rationalizations, I am obviously doing them myself, but it's just plain wrong, and so unnecessary.
Basically, live like you will eventually watch the DVD of your life next to the person you are interacting with.
Respect, empathy, generosity, selflessness, patience, compassion
[deleted]
Today is the first day I've heard the straw thing but it's all over this thread.
Do you know the story there?
DO NOT JOIN THE MILITARY. Do not donate to political campaigns under any circumstances, and do not put signs in your yard or on your car. Could anything be more shameful? Do not watch/read mass "news". ABC, CNN, MSNBC, FOX, NBC, whatever. Don't do it. If you can't disengage completely from the news cycle, Unz.com and lewrockwell.com will satiate your mind, unless you are a complete, unsalvageable retard.
Tell the truth, or at least don't lie.
Don't ghost people. Just let the person know your not interested. It works better this way.
Don’t buy products tested on animals!
Fix your diet.
You know processed foods aren't as good for you as whole foods are. You know you should eat less simple sugars. You know you should drink more water. So do it.
I don't think you understood the question.
What's more ethical than helping yourself?
[deleted]
I quit smoking three weeks ago, and this time it feels like I won't start again.
I just wanted to tell someone.
Congrats!
A renewed commitment to the values of The Enlightenment. This current round of identity politics poison that is destroying the west must be stopped. We currently have a stampede of ideological authoritarian idiots attempting to lead us back to the 15th century in the name of 'empathy' and calling it progress.
Not imposing our ethics on others.
Give people the benefit of the doubt, be helpful, be understanding, act with integrity only for integrity's sake, always tell the truth, aim for justice, act is if your decisions matter (because they do), and take care of yourself as if you were somebody that you cared about deeply.
Carry no hatred inside of your heart.
Curb the gratuitous profanity?
Stop using straws.
It'd be nice if there was a practical option to never buy anything from slaves.
Buy fair trade clothing, food, and other goods.
The state of Hawaii should have recycling programs that actually works for the community and better medical services for homeless people.
In the words of Devine; Kill everyone now! Condone first degree murder! Advocate cannibalism! Eat shit! Filth is my politics! Filth is my life!
who is Devine?
Google; Babs Johnson.
Or better still, check out Pink Flamingos.
well that was 4 minutes of my time I won't get back
😂 Did you see the eating dog shit scene?
nope
I do not recommend watching this link, seriously. I really wouldn’t recommend watching it. https://youtu.be/RjTY7yIvDbo
Start by trying not to buy plastic!
Not leaving a shopping cart in the middle of a space.
Don’t kill people. A surprising amount of us somehow mess this one up.
Most importantly we should be teaching our children these values!
Grab your trash after a movie and walk it the 30 or so steps to the garbage.
Buy a 'keep cup' or similar for your morning coffee. Don't keep using the disposable cups with the plastic lids. Any coffee shop worth a damn will give you a discount on your coffee too.
Philanthropy. Will we selflessly help other people or is everyone to blame for their fate.
Buying or not buying Nestle products
Recycle more plastic and plant more trees.
One of the most environmentally friendly and therefore ethical things you can do is to eat more plant based foods :)
Stop doing cocaine
Don't take every fucking thing to your advantage.
Yesterday I was in a quarrel with a guy for a window seat. It was then I realized, to stop being selfish and not to always yield results just for my benefit and handed over my seat.
It would be great if more people implement this thing in their day to day activities.
Stop buying greek style yoghurt.
be excellent to one another!
Did you mean "moral" instead of "ethical" ? Ethics have to do with laws while morals are individual based.
Don't buy palm oil
Stop shilling for companies.
People go out of their way to buy products that the rest of the community doesn't like
A Product starts going down the path IE: Microtransactions and people don't care, all they care about is themselves and playing that game on release day, join /r/patientgamers you'll thank me later.
Singers/Actors, they do horrible stuff and become multi-millionaires, there are rappers out there that have beaten women, shot randomly out of a car, shot guns in houses, in possesion of mass amounts of weed before they are even 18, talk about popping all sorts of drugs like it's a cool af lifestyle, "Aww but that song is deep though about his feelings" fuck that he's just rapping like every other person does, drugs, money and cars, flexing 24/7
I'm sick of society putting these people on a platform or ignoring shitty choices done in a product all because they want to fucking play it.
I agree with so much but absolutely not the part that plants can't feel or think.
Plant life is distinctly different than animal, and It wasn't so long ago that we thought many or most animals didn't "feel".
Mostly just playing devils advocate here but the assertion that plants can't feel is just a guess.
Good conversation with you, I enjoyed it and feel we were both respectful and you gave me more to look into.
Clean your goddamn room, buckos.
Way to late to this conversation but I think living above our means. We Rely on credit and debt way too much.
STOP USING STRAWS, and eat slightly less meat. Take a couple of fruits instead of your caf's meaty menu once in a while. That's a bare minimum of effort and yet it can still help greatly. Straws are bad mmkai.
We should always be mindful of others when doing something. Like in Japan.
We should all use our blinkers when driving! They are not to there to remind you to turn, they are actually for indicating your intention to turn or move in that direction to the other drivers on the road.
Favor for a favor > eye for an eye
Definitely not the thing that would help the most.
Do get an abortion, instead raise your child to be a useful member of society.
Just be kind to strangers and especially poeple that are working! You can make a workday a lot better for someone else really easily.
stop buying shitty Chinese goods.
And shitty mass-produced collectables that become useless after 3 days of buying.
Use as little proprietary software as possible and as much user freedom respecting software (see http://www.fsf.org and http://www.gnu.org) and federated web services like https://joinmastodon.org etc. Also, vote, regardless of you political view. Participate in the democracy by at least voting. General and local elections. Eat vegetarian and sea food at least once a week. Don't buy mobile phones that you can't replace that batteries in yourself.
in our family,If one of us is caught in troubles. All of us should give him our hands. it is same to our parents ' love.they give birth to us,and look after us.In return ,we are supported to show our love to them.when we are taking a bus ,we should help The older.
Eat less meat! Or even better no meat at all! I know you all like meat but it has to be done
Keeping in contact with your family.
Not just your mom, dad, and siblings but your grandma, grandpa, uncles, aunts, cousins, etc. Ive had some difficult times with my family and I've come to realize just how much I took for granted.
I think sometimes I forget how much I am loved by so many people. And in the end, the relationships you've formed and maintained during your life will be one of the, if not the single, most important thing(s) that you will be remembered by as well as look back on. Not only that, but I garuntee you will make any of family member's day by giving them a call and seeing how they are doing.
Edit: grammar
Ethical life choices that we need to make is Don't let yourself down( love yourself), stop wasting time, make adversity your ally.
Well...We could all eat a little less than we normally do to begin with. Good for us and the environment too. You wouldn't believe how eating less solves so many problems we have now. You don't always have to do extraordinary changes in your life.
[deleted]
Now I know what to do with those two five gallon plastic pails I snagged from the chinese place down the block a few months ago.
Be careful, the sneaky chinese might still be hiding inside it!
Nah, I've had the lids off. It's all good, mate. But I appreciate the concern.
I tried man but I just cant fit in
/s?
INCOMING VEGANS
I saw the signal, what's going on? Who brought hummus?
I love this comment
Well it's a thread about ethical life choices so...?
So vegans will be trying to push their stupid-ass agenda
What's so stupid-ass about not killing animals and fucking the environment? Seems like a pretty reasonable 'agenda' to me.
Vegans don't argue for the environment, and I like to eat my meat, thanks.
How can you say that vegans don't argue for the environment? And do you ever stop to think if the animals you eat want to die?
The animals don't care if they die. Think of a reason why you do not want to die. I bet there's a lot, right? I got a lot as well. Now think about whether any of those reasons apply to a cow which does not have sentient/sapient thought. They do feel pain and I agree that the conditions in which they live are horrible and bad for the environment... But in my opinion we should be able to fix those issues and still eat meat.
As a meat eater, I’m going to be the devils advocate here.
I don’t want to die because I want to avoid pain and continue enjoying the things I enjoy/find pleasure in. Why don’t you think cows have this same instinct? I don’t think they even require any specific level of sentience to qualify for that.
I saw a comparison that one dairy farmer (heavily downvoted) made where he said that his cows died pretty painlessly and shared a link of two komodo dragons eating a deers guts while it was still alive... If I had to choose, I'd rather die like a dairy cow.
If i recall correctly animals have any sort of concept of time. You may see dying early as bad because you realise you could have had more time to live. I don't know if I'm wrong but a cow would see it as 'just dying'.
However some farms hold animals in deplorable conditions and I would consider becoming at least vegetarian for that or environmental reasons myself, at least until lab grown meat takes off.
his cows died pretty painlessly and shared a link of two komodo dragons eating a deers guts while it was still alive... If I had to choose, I'd rather die like a dairy cow.
Yeah but those arent the only options, you/the cow doesnt have to be killed.
Well, we do have to die. And, please correct me if I'm wrong but I heard animals don't have a concept of time. If that were true, it would make no difference to the cow dying today or in 5 years.
We all have to die but that doesn't mean we all have to be killed.
As for time I've not heard that before. Even granting if that is true I don't think it changes anything.
Animals don't want to die, they'll resist it as much as possible. That goes for dogs, cats, humans, cows, chickens, fish etc... Even if its a painless death or an unexpected death we don't have a right to kill other beings. I don't know what seeing that as 'just dying' means.
You're definitely right that the slaughter of animals in factory farms is horrible, and I'd encourage you to go vegetarian or do meatless mondays as a first step.
Just curious on your thoughts on the matter... what gives wolves the right to kill other beings? Our intelligence is an evolutionary tool just as much as a bear's fangs.
Wolves are in a survival situation, they don't have the luxury we do to choose their food or to pop down to the supermarket and grab everything they need to eat.
I think it’s ironic that, in a thread about how to be a better person, you come here to be an ass and you did it before any vegans acted self righteous.
As another meat eater, fuck you buddy. You’re the asshole in this room.
Meat eaters are destroying the planet smh, go vegan dude
Thanks 👍 In case you didn't notice, I don't give a crap! 🙃. It's my opinion that vegans are wrong. Have a good day 👍👍👍
It’s my opinion that you’re an ass for no other reason than you chose to be.
I hope someday you have a reason to think about why you spend your life this way.
Well, that's your opinion, and I don't really care. On the other hand, I do really like the way I spend my life, but maybe you shouldn't judge my lifestyle off a few comments.
Kinda like how you judged a bunch of vegans before they even had the chance to make comments for you to base your judgement off of.
Don’t bother responding, I’m not disillusioned with thinking I can reason with you and I’m fine if we just part ways here.
We all judge people, no matter how objective we try to appear. You judges how I spent my life based on one topic that I felt particular on. Just don't hold yourself to a higher degree, we're all the same imperfect assholes in the end, one way or another.
"We all judge people, no matter how objective we try to appear."
Therefore, let's be irrationaly undisciplined!!
Go be a pseudo-nihilist somewhere else. Apparently video games haven't teached you nothing of value.
Not saying you shouldn't try to be a nice person, just saying that under everything, we all subconciously judge based on everything, whether we like it or not
You have yet to come up with a singular reason why veganism is bad, on any level. Meanwhile veganism has a multitude of benefits, even ignoring animal rights- like being the single biggest positive effect you can have on the environment. I'm not a vegan, and it doesn't take a vegan to understand this.
Your opinion is ignorant and, frankly, stupid. Unless you're on the payroll of the meat or dairy industry, you're just joining the reddit vegan hate bandwagon. You aren't in the clear just because it's "like, your opinion man." Opinions aren't infallible and you desperately need to do some introspection on yours. The smartest thing you can do is change your opinions based on new knowledge.
Veganism incredibly raises chances for you the have a protein deficiency, and makes you lose most muscle mass, if not an unhealthy amount of it. Humanity needs mass meat production, there's simply no other way, we have an astoundingly large population, and we need to feed them all with a HEALTHY diet, meaning meat is included. Normal hunting just couldn't keep up with the demand, so we need mass production. We have the tech and the land. Dogs or any other animal would do the same, if they reigned supreme. Sure, it might affect the environment but global warming, pollution, etc. would completely override it. As for the eating part, you NEED meat in your diet, no discussion. As stated earlier, you need protein for muscle mass, and many other minor but helpful things, and the best source is meat. If you want lots of protein from a vegan diet, you'd have to eat A LOT. If you ask me, veganism is unhealthy, and I don't really support it. I'm not gonna stop you, you can do whatever you want with your body and diet, but I wouldn't recommend it at all. Are those enough reasons?
Here, you dropped this: [citation needed]
The modern understanding is that Veganism is actually pretty damn healthy. You can still get protein, that's a massively dated and uninformed criticism of veganism. Ask any dietician and they will say you're full of shit.
And so I'm not a hypocrite:
Ha at all the preachy bullshit in this thread. Fuck off why should I use my time to do something that only benefits others?
Eat less meat and animal products. They're environmentally catastrophic, and a plant-based diet is way healthier (and can be more delicious!). Besides, modern factory farming/meat processing is a human and animal rights nightmare.
Being vegetarian
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Perhaps you should stop a think that a lot of the cheating methods people come up with require thought and planning. This is teaching them to think in different ways and find better solutions. They are learning to do research and becoming better at problem solving. Way better than a lot of high school educational methods of "remember what we say and write it on this paper.".
You're proud that you got along learning and knowing what you needed. Perhaps they are proud that they found a way to pass a class they would have otherwise failed which would have lead to a drop in GPA that would exclude them from a desired school. They too achieved it their selves, just in a different manner. It doesn't matter how someone gets into Harvard, the thing that matters is what did they do with the opportunities that comes with Harvard attendance afterwards?
Fun story:
I got into a huge blowout with a teacher in high school because I suggested the idea that all tests should be open book. The teacher wanted to know what's the point of the testing then if the answer was right there. I proposed maybe be more creative in the testing and not have solutions from the book but solutions that can be found by using the book. I went on to say that in the real world it is irresponsible to rely on what one knows or remembers. The brain is flawed and sometimes we as people can get crossed and confused. Mathematicians, doctors, lawyers, and various other professionals are constantly referring to information stored because it is simply impossible to remember it all. The teacher didn't like this none too much. He went on to talking about how students need to prove retention. I called bullshit. I then stated that him knowing the year Winston Churchill was born was as trivial as me knowing that he, Winston Churchill, always wore his bow tie slightly crooked, messy, and/or tied asymmetrical. That's when the vein in teach's forehead started throbbing. It all ended with me being thrown out of the class for calling him stupid for not having the foresight of information being better stored and easily available as time goes on. I was removed from this class entirely and given a free period for the rest of the year. For me, the class turned into a pass/fail that I was given pass. I was in that class for only two weeks and it was my freshmen year. It was all a ruse. I knew this teacher was particularly short fused with defiant students. I knew that if I poked and prodded I would be thrown out of the class. The principal of the school and I had a long history (I was a rabble-rouser, an underachiever, and a mischievous little fuck. He was the principal through my middle school years and transitioned to my high school the same year as I), I knew I could convince him to take me out of the class with credit for passing. I argued that it would be better for everyone because I was just going to keep causing trouble and impede each and every lesson. I knew there would be no other classes during that period that I could be placed into because I either had them during different periods or didn't qualify to be placed into them. I had orchestrated an entire chain of events that lead to me having ninety minutes of free time to roam the halls, hang in the library, and smoke and/or get high in the parking lot. After that ninety minutes of freedom was my lunch period. Because of that one incident, every year I had ninety minutes of basically free time working the library and getting a class credit each time. Free class credits for reading random books, drawing, getting baked, and sometimes doing various tasks that needed to be done. Which shows more cognizance, getting an A or B in 'European Cultures' or taking complete control of an undesirable situation and flipping it into something that benefited me to the fullest?
I don't know if everyone should be doing this, but one ethical choice I've made for my life for the past decade or so is not to see movies in the theater. When the actors, directors, producers, etc. of a movie make millions of dollars for just a few weeks of work, while my son's first grade teacher is making $20K, there is a problem with our value system and that problem is reflected in consumers willingness to pay $20-40 to see a movie in the theater but not willing to pay $10 more in taxes. The movie will come out at the dollar theater, or on DVD, or on Netflix, or it won't kill me to miss seeing it completely. There are other things I can do for a night out that don't demonstrate what I see as a warped value system.
Note: I know teachers today make more than 20K but when I started this, the average teacher salary was about 20K.
Note 2nd: I'm less confident about my values when it comes to live concerts and sporting events. I personally wouldn't pay $100 for tickets to a football game because I'm not a fan, but I could see paying hundreds of dollars for a ticket to see a Broadway show or a once-in-a-lifetime concert like Pink Floyd or Fleetwood Mac or the Eagles. Those artists won't be around forever, and it's not like I can easily catch that show on DVD six months later. But on the other hand, there are hundreds of Youtube videos of Pink Floyd and the like, it's not like I couldn't see what it's like for free...
Watching a video for a concert and being at a concert is completely different. Chances are, the video is going to have better sound quality (as in you are going to hear the song as you know it and love it). but going to the concert can be a great experience that is difficult to describe.
Fuck movie theaters though. Your pretzel bites are always stale now anyway.
How about we stop using the word fuck so much. We are smarter than that.
Frig off
:-)
if you have racist thoughts, consider eating less meat
Don’t shower everyday. You’re wasting water and you really don’t need daily showers.
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Also have less / no kids.
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No.
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You think creating life is ethical?
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I do. But what makes you think your position is reasonable? Why is this life game on this planet worth continuing?
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It's reproduction for the sake of reproduction. There's no end goal. It's all a dumb addictive psychology and there's a price being paid: pointless suffering.
Personally I wish we could live in a way that it didn't effect the planet in a negative way
Yeah and personally I wish we could blow it up because nature sucks. It has no consideration for the value of the sentient experiences.
It is better for the genes of Darwin's wasp that the caterpillar should be alive, and therefore fresh, when it is eaten, no matter what the cost in suffering. If Nature were kind, She would at least make the minor concession of anesthesizing caterpillars before they were eaten alive from within. But Nature is neither kind nor unkind. She is neither against suffering nor for it. Nature is not interested in suffering one way or the other unless it affects the survival of DNA. It is easy to imagine a gene that, say, tranquilizes gazelles when they are about to suffer a killing bite. Would such a gene be favored by natural selection?
Not unless the act of tranquilizing a gazelle improved that gene's chances of being propagated into future generations. It is hard to see why this should be so, and we may therefore guess that gazelles suffer horrible pain and fear when they are pursued to the death - as many of them eventually are. The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are being slowly devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst and disease. It must be so. If there is ever a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored.
In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference. As that unhappy poet A. E. Housman put it:
For nature, heartless, witless nature Wll neither care nor know
DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music.
Be more sustainable. If you print, use sugar cane paper (same cost as 30%recycled with way less carbon emissions. Compost, buy local, thunk about what resources went into everything you consume.
We should all be making the ethical life choice of making ethical choices. Oftentimes people end up making choices based on arbitrary doctrines they’re culturally compelled to follow despite lacking a feeling of connection to the belief. Even worse, and probably more common, is doing a cost-benefit analysis of problems that essentially chooses your route of action for you. In a very limited sense, people like this are acting ethically. But acting ethically isn’t so much about what choices we make so much as how we make them.
I saw someone here advocating for people to use a website that ranks corporate ethics so you can “consume ethically.” Assuming the companies claimed to be ethical are actually ethical, the user of the website does not act as ethically as the creator. The creator(s) (presumably) decided on a way to rank these companies, but the user(s) decided that their own choices would be made based on the results of the choices made by the creators. There’s a level of dependence here, of user on creator, that is not only susceptible to manipulation, but also mistakes.
The site could be horribly wrong about which companies are ethical and encourage many many people to “vote with their dollar” for the worst candidates. The site could also have been created by Pfizer or Proctor and Gamble, and therefore contains ethical considerations that make these companies (and their hundreds of subsidiaries) the messiahs of corporate responsibility. This blind compliance and inconsiderate ethics are ultimately responsible for reproducing anti-democratic systems and ensuring that socially damaging ideologies remain mainstream.
It creates an anti-democratic environment because the people are no longer making choices for theirselves based on their own moral compulsions (i think guilt is the best indicator of whether something is ethical). Whether one is an adherent to the ethical consumption site or a motivational speaker or religious figure or other person importing their own moral framework as if it’s a universally acceptable way of acting, the goal is not to make people think like oneself, but rather to encourage people to accept one’s conclusions. If they accept your conclusions, they generally won’t investigate the reasons and motivations for them.
A world where people blindly follow the ideologies and ethics of others is one where those ideologies and ethics, no matter how damaging, maintain cultural dominance. Nobody questions whether majoritarian democracy is actually a fair form of governing. They don’t ask why we withhold food or housing from others based on insufficient funds. By asking what ethical restraints we should all practice, one ignores the contextual nature of ethics.
We recently banned single-use plastic bags at grocery stores in my state. Shortly after that went into effect, my city had a huge hepatitis outbreak. What the city found out was that homeless folk would use these bags to carry stuff, and the fact that they were single use (and HIGHLY accessible) meant that they were almost always essentially free, available and clean. In a context where we know plastic bags are ending up in oceans and killing all these animals, its selfish, and downright unethical to continue using single-use bags at the grocery store every week. But in a context where plastic bags are a disease vector for people with little access to healthcare or even a place to be sick, it seems inhuman to ban the thing that keeps them from falling off another cliff, so to speak. Getting rid of plastic bags, in this context, was like ending a very successful needle exchange program. Not all good things are good for everyone. Encouraging others to follow doctrines and rules only encourages this myopic kind of thinking.
Of course, it is somewhat of a paradox to make an ethical rule that essentially compels one to ignore ethical rules. But paradoxes are okay and they don’t show as much about the validity of ideas as they do about the validity of the way we think. That’s a topic for another reddit essay.
Maybe not everyone needs to have babies just because they can / it's the "next life step"?
Making sure the products you buy are conflict free. After reading "Those Who Walked Away From Omelas" I've been thinking about ways I can take steps away from Omelas.
Just read the synopsis, super interesting.
Don't drink almond milk, even if you love how it coats your tongue.
What is the ethical problem with Almond milk?
This is a joke from the show The Good Place.
:D
Not be a total piece of shit that abuses the system.
Decide if you want children before having an abortion that results from your own negligence.
Don't eat body parts.
This thread should be renamed “What are some environmental life choices we should all be making?”
I know it isn’t as simple as this and I know I’ll get some hate buuuuuuut here it goes:
We should probably try to stop killing babies.
Self driving cars. They will decide if they will run over someone or if they will sacrifice themselves...
Love God
I'll def be downvoted....using less animal products, meat, dairy, etc.
It's horrible for the environment, contributes more to global warming than many of the other things the media focuses on, and causes unnecessary suffering for the animals.
And don't give me that shit " they wouldn't exists if they weren't on farms". That's the same logic as saying slavery is ok because the slaves would never have been born. Would you want a life of horrendous conditions, being kept alive in unsanitary conditions by being injected with antibiotics and hormones, only to be slaughtered at the end of your shit life.
Don't buy or take cocaine, it destroys the environment in production, and destroys lives from start to finish, and is generally bad news.
I just want to say that I'm feeling very attacked right now.
Reducing intake of red meat
Being vegan. Adopting cats and dogs from shelters instead of breeders. Adopt, don't shop! Also, recycling.
STOP REPRODUCING
I won't say should, as this is a polarizing and very personal choice: going vegetarian for environmental reasons. Meat is delicious, but I'm tired of the Amazon rainforest going away, industrial farms where animals are abused and fed horrible things, and questionable meat entering our diets.
I want to raise my own animals for meat someday, but they'll be fed well and live good lives, nor will it contribute to pollution and deforestation.
We should stop buying tampons with plastic applicators. There is an easy available substitute.
We should also stop washing clothing with artificial fibers because it is like asbestos to the fish when they shed and wind up in the water, you can wash them in a special net that catches the fibers, or better yet stop buying and wearing them altogether. This is a much harder sell.
Periods suck either way. Use the fucking cardboard, the planet doesn't deserve to suffer for a mild inconvenience
Better yet, use a menstrual cup.
We should all be vegetarian, the meat industry is such a big polluter and living the veg life isn't as hard as it sounds
Dairy and egg industries are just as bad, possibly even worse. Being vegan is a piece of cake though.
People need to stop telling kids that police are going to shoot them and that the police are the enemy.
Reduce your meat consumption. You don't need to cut out all meat if you don't want to, but try doing one or more meals a week meat free. Cows are a HUGE contributer to greenhouse gasses. Mass consumer cultivation of animals requires clearing large swaths of land, reducing the flora that once helped contribute to our oxygen. (Bigger animals require more land; so switching from beef to chicken can still help the environment some.) And when you do buy meat, try to educate yourself on where it came from and how it was raised. Maybe spending a few extra dollars per pound to know your meat was raised humanely, or that they were fed a diet of conflict free food will be worth it for you. Some fish are harvested by indentured servants (like pretty much all shrimp) so look into where your seafood comes from as well.
You don't have to be vegetarian to be a concious eater. Humans are omnivores. Just be aware of what your eating choices mean for the world around you.
Consuming less meat. I mean you can still have your steak but just eat is less. If you want to eat meat IIRC you're supposed to have more fish/chicken and less of the other meats.
This is not just for the benefit of animals but also of your own health.
Stop eating tuna.
Choosing not to eat meat and diary is by far the number one. A lot of these things posted are just silly feel good things paling in comparison to the seriousness of animal factory farming.
Change our daily diets to a more plant based approach.
Have an informed opinion.
I don't care so much what you're opinion is but it better be based on something than just anecdotal evidence or your feelings.
There's too many important things happening in the world for you to just say "I believe we should worship the flying purple people eater because that's what my parents do."
Is this really a moral/ethical issue?
In my mind it is. I think you have a moral responsibility to be informed before forming an opinion. There's so many issues today because people make uninformed decisions. They do no research. They don't listen to the other side. They can't even explain why they have the opinion they do but damn it if they won't vote a certain way because.
If you're going to vote, if you're going to raise a child, if you're going to even share your opinion in any public space at all, then there are real consequences to your opinion.
The least you can do is be informed.
I agree everybody should have informed opinions, I just don’t think it’s necessarily unethical to have an opinion for no other reason than it’s your opinion.
I do.
You might not know what ethics are then. Seems like you just wanted to rant about something that annoys you, not provide anything to a discussion about ethics.
Assuming you'll accept Merriam-Webster's definition then you'd also have to define what it means to be moral.
Since it essentially boils down to doing the "right" thing and since that is a philosophical question which won't be answered by Google, I can completely assert that it is "right" and therefore moral and ethical to have informed opinions and, conversely, immoral to have an uninformed opinion.
Now if you want to argue about what is "right" and "wrong" then go ahead but it's pretty untenable to claim I'm not making an argument about ethics.
is your uninformed opinion based on whether murder should be acceptable, or whether Tyler Perry is a good filmmaker because you like his movies. There is nothing wrong with liking shitty movies for no other reason then you are entertained by them?
Realise that no one is evil.
Even those who continually commit evils, would not had they been taught a better way or had they known they could have chosen better.
Making monsters out of man is lazy and will do nothing but polarize the world further.
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Classic and a beauty. Thanks for sharing !
If you want to smoke, put a bubble over your head so you have to breathe all the shit in yourself :P
Donate to an assisted dying focus group.
Most of the general public in the UK and the US support it.
It’s merciful, it stops pain, and it should be the individual’s choice.
It is, in my opinion, not only ethical but dutiful to support.
TIP YOUR SERVERS
Everyone should be thinking 5-10 year down the road not just the next 1-2 months. The biggest thing I feel is a avoidable tragedy is people popping out 2-4 kids without any financial stability so the family lives paycheck to paycheck and usually going straight into debt because of their kids. Then the kids grow up and repeat the same mistakes because they had no roll models to show them the proper way of planning their life. You can tell your kids the right thing to do until u are blue in the face, but you need to SHOW them, not just tell.
Don't have kids unless you plan for them - financially, social stability-wise, time-of-life-wise. It's hell on the kids, and hell on unprepared parents, their families and communities. If the only reason you want a kid is so something in your life will love you unconditionally, get counseling. If the only reason you want a kid is biological imperative, spread your legacy of DNA evidence some other way, like a sperm/egg bank.
And if people out there think that if everyone planned for kids no one would actually have any, that says plenty about society right there.
Become vegetarian
Eating less meat
Eating less animals
Turning the lights out in a room when you leave and eat less meat.
Based partially on the name, I’m think vegan was the answer they were lookin for
Understanding the other side of a political argument, so that you can see outside of yourself and not look at your fellow citizens like crazy uneducated idiots...
Eating less meat (preferably none).
I know no one wants to hear it but... eat less meat. The benefits to the environment and your fellow humans by reducing your meat (especially beef) consumption are immeasurable. Not to mention the benefits to your own health.
Go back to being cavemen, forget morals, and make it a truly dog-eat-dog world so we can weed out the weak.
Either that or automate so much that we can actually do whatever we want to do safely and healthily BUT without "smart" ai programs.
Not trying to oppress other people.
If you don't want to become vegan or vegetarian, reduce your beef consumption.
AsapSCIENCE did a good video on this: https://youtu.be/ANUoAdXfA60
Eating less red meat is good for our health and the environment.
Pay your taxes and vote.
I'm sorry, you'll hate me. But.... Vegetarianism
stop eating animals
Eat every animal you see so it doesn't run the risk of being mutilated by a predator or hit by vehicles.
Veganism.
HaHaHaHaHa....just kidding!
Be good to people...just be decent. It's not hard.
Stop eating meat. Stop buying toys. Stop buying disposable plastic things. Stop feeding children sugar, sodium and food coloring. Stop being obese. Stop idling your cars. Stop owning diesel vehicles. Stop burning wood. Stop smoking. Stop drinking alcohol. Stop supporting marijuana prohibition.
I think the #1 would be to stop eating meat. If animals were treated really well while still alive, we could have a discussion about the ethical implications of (not) eating meat, but given that they are largely treated like shit, I think it becomes a much clearer choice. I think almost everyone is against animal cruelty, but we still pay for enabling it.
I also don't want to go effective altruism (EA) to go unmentioned in this thread. The EA movement/community posits that we ought to do the most good we can for the world with the resources we have. Of course, there's a lot of open questions such as how we define goodness, where to set our priorities, how much "self sacrifice" we should make (I personally think the idea that it's a sacrifice to your own happiness is usually a misconception), etc. You can do this by donating to effective charities (the best ones get a 100 times more done than your typical charity), or by finding a job that has a positive impact on the world (that wouldn't be filled by someone else had you not chosen it), or by making certain lifestyle choices (e.g. not eating meat).
I think a lot of people have a lot of desire to do good in them. But for some reason, when doing good we don't typically think about how much impact we're actually making. It seems to be more about the intentions or how it makes us feel than the actual outcome. Of course people should feel good about doing good things, but it's the impact that matters in the end. And some suggested actions in reality just don't really have any impact.
If anyone would like to know more or have a discussion about this topic, feel free to send me a private message (or just reply, that works too).
Don’t be nice while you’re driving. Be predictable. I don’t want the right of way if I don’t t have the right of way. Honestly this is such an easy one but so overlooked
Boycott bottled water
Veganism
Eat less meat. An easy way to reduce your ecological footprint.
I'm going to say this as someone who enjoys a good steak, fishes for fun and used to hunt. We have to eat less meat. The pollution, water and land used for the cattle industry is staggering, not to mention the widespread misuse of antibiotics.
Just stop judging others and eat less red meat.
Don't judge me for eating more meat.
Not judging, but really advising against.
Adopting a vegan diet. Animal agriculture is the leading cause of species extinction, ocean dead zones, water pollution, and habitat destruction. Also, there is no need for animals to be needlessly slaughtered. In this day and age adopting a vegan lifestyle is a very easy step and it the first step in leading an ethical lifestyle.
Yes we know. You’re the 1384&4&4th person to say this.
Look at the comments of a post before you comment to see if your question, response, criticism or concern has already been addressed multiple times. It's just ridiculous to scroll through the comments and see the same words again and again.
Nothing against vegetarianism or veganism (am vegetarian) but literally every single comment on this post says "don't eat meat" or "eat less meat" even though I can flick my finger down the comments and be sure that every single one of them says something about it. It's even worse when they finish off with something akin to "cue the downvotes" or "but this will just get buried in downvotes" and yet all of those post have at least 40 upvotes. I just don't see why so many people would comment the exact same shit on the exact same post twenty thousand times. It's like they're not even looking at the comments.
Not reading washington post
nothing, who gives a fuck
If people only recycled, through out their own trash and cleaned-up after themselves this would be a much nicer world.
ITT: People that don't know what ethics are. Good life advice nonetheless though.
Going vegan. Meat and dairy industry is literally ruining the planet.
Eating less meat.
Not pushing for vegetarian- or veganism, don't get me wrong. I'm not even a vegetarian myself.
Just try to become a little bit more aware of your meat consumption and the impact the industry has on our environment. One day a week of eating less or no meat can make a huge difference if more people do it.
I've recently become a wiccan so taking care of the earth is something I'm learning to do/care about more & more. I've been doing research about choices that fit perfectly as answers to this question, & have started implementing them into my life. Using cruelty-free products was my first step and is where my eyes started to open. Recycling, reusing or just not using certain things came next. Now I'm becoming vegan. All these lifestyle choices benefit the planet. I have been finding them to be quite helpful to me in ways like crazy, biggest in all categories is the way I feel as a person. I feel good that I'm not contributing to the bazillions of problems that are created from not living that way. I feel good to know that what I'm putting on or in my body is good for me. And to everyone in the world concerning any issues, do your research. People always seem willing to voice their opinions but so often you realize how little they truly know. (I've been catching up on all the anti-vegan out there, but this fits everything) Sorry for any confusions I may have wrote, I'm on mobile and high. Peace
Stop wasting unnecessary energy and creating pollution -
Embrace personal freedom. Clean up after yourself and don't force your beliefs on others or expect them to do a damn thing for you. Plant a tree. And be kind.
Don’t overpopulate the world.
Your want for a large family isn’t more important than the health of the planet.
this is gonna be a vegan circlejerk isn't it?
clicks
yep
... but it's not like they are wrong though, is it?
eh there's three main benefits of being vegan... the sustainability one I agree with the most, and I prefer to contribute by never having children :)
the health one is mirky at best because you can certainly eat healthy with a meat diet and unhealthy with a vegan diet
the ethical one is too friggin subjective, do you never kill an ant or a fly? i'm all for less harmful ways of preparing meat but it doesn't bother me that much, call me an asshole if you want idc
How is "concern for sustainability" not a subset of ethical concerns? I agree that it's seperate from the entire animal-suffering-complex, but it is an ethical concern nonetheless.
I consider it separate. It's more about saving the planet than saving the whales. Totally different paths even if you could argue it is an ethical concern, which I agree with.
Everyone should stop eating meat. It's killing billions of animals a year and the planet along with them.
The Chinese had it right with the one child policy. Too many damn people!
Try to buy clothes but shoes especially ethically. It takes some extra shopping around but worth the fair labor and sustainable materials imo.
clothes but shoes
What? What does that mean? Autocorrect failure? I don't know.
What are but shoes? I know butt stuff, never heard of but shoes.
Please learn how to proofread.
Autocorrect failure?
That's not a question.
Don't isolate yourself in order to cope with social rejection. It feels "good" but you're really just numbing yourself, and detaching from reality.
Vegetarian /vegan
Stop eating animals and their byproducts. I can't think of one other ethical decision that can have as positive and instantaneous of an impact as this for the environment, for the animals, and for your personal health.
alright I'll bite
you're the 1st I've seen claiming that this is healthier
I can't see how that can be true
Here's a link with the evidence-based health benefits of a plant-based diet: https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vegan-diet-benefits
Do some of your own research. If you'd like, look into world-class athletes that have gone vegan for the health benefits!
Love your enemies and pray for those who do harm to you.
Do not procreate. Do not have children. The earth is over populating and it IS our fault. Completely preventable too. I agree with self imposed eugenics. If you know you carry a gene bad for the population, don't pass it on. I'm not. My new employer will 100% pay to snip me. I so happy. No kids for me ever.
Anyone with kids is increasing their carbon footprint. No matter what you do, you cant stop your kids from having more kids. It's unpopular, but I don't care.
I am against forced eugenics, it should be a personal choice. But having more children is bad for the environment no matter what. Humans are destroying the earth.
Recycle etc. But that's not enough, it's our fault, and your kids, and their kids, and their kids, and their kids, etc.
My parents had 3 of us. 2 of us aren't. Therefore, my parents also were part of the problem creating us.
Have you seen idiocracy? That’s the start to idiocracy. All the responsible adults don’t have children while all the dumbasses that don’t have a clue continuously have more and more kids, not raising them properly. You can guess what the next generation is like.
Owned it since around 06-07.
if overpopulation was something we were close to you may have a point
Everyone should have the choice of procreating, but please don't do it out of fright for the earth. This propaganda has been going on for well over a hundred years and used as an excuse for eugenics. You remember eugenics don't you? The Nazis were quite fond of it. Capitalism is a better solution to save the earth from a population standpoint. In every country which progresses economically, almost always as a direct result of capitalism, the size of families decreases dramatically. Our country is a good example.
Go ahead and have no children if you want, but I hope you are not doing this at a young age because you could change your mind or your true love may change your mind and there are multiple non-permanent birth control methods you can use in the meantime. I'm sorry so many young people are buying into this and are so terrified of it.
I agree. /u/downy_syndrome has every right to not reproduce. But he can't use overpopulation as an excuse.
I can when humans are the problem. All the worlds problems we see, that we are now smart enough to see, we have created. Ruduction of population is more feasible than extinction. Plus reduction of population may keep us from destroying other planets too. I don't want to go all crazy guy on this, but we are the problem.
Population reduction and reduction of use of resources goes hand in hand.
/r/conspiracy is that way -->
Thank you, but, no.
This is not a rash decision by any means. I don't know how thick the books would be on reasons why I don't want kids on a personal level. Humans are the worst thing that has happened to this planet that we know of. We are the ones ruining it. I'm making my personal choice to not have my impact go beyond me. It's not down syndrome that's the gene, which many believe.
It is something happening. If you can't see it, it's not my problem. If you can't research it, it's not my problem. If you can't see consumption rates rising, it's not my problem.
Me seeing it and certain genetic traits I choose not to pass on is your problem. And my solution.
Encouraging me to populate is everyone's problem.
Sorry for being ‚that guy‘ but I think we should all become vegetarian, or at least reduce our meat consumption to once a week. It ridicoulously easy to become vegetarian and you‘re not missing out on anything except destroying the enviroment.
there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. the economic model we have will not save us from the coming climate catastrophes. capitalism sees disaster as a chance to make a buck. just look at the response to puerto rico and hurricane katrina in new orleans. the bourgeois will speculate on land at higher elevation while the east coast sinks. elon musk isnt going to save you, he wants to enslave you. look at how he treats his own workers.
socialism or barbarism is humanity's only choice.
Puerto Rico is the perfect antithesis to what you've said and an example of government interference at the cost of lives.
Privatizing public education and public utilities is now the government interfering... in itself?
Do you know what privatization means? It means the taxpayer pays for the school and the government gives it to a corporation so the corporation can make a profit. So the taxpayer pays for it twice. Once to build it, multiple times to use it. Thats grift son.
And if it makes losses then suddenly the tax payer bails out the company again. Pay thrice
Socialism and communism never worked and will never work, just like the sheltered middle class westerners that advocate such shitty ideologies, not realizing they would be the first in line to get fucked by this system.
I love how liberals need to believe that every socialist is a middle class inner city millennial. I'm working class and a socialist. Most people in my Union are socialists and obviously working class. Most socialist movements have been lead by the working class. But sure keep telling yourself that it's just middle class kids that don't like their economic conditions and workers love capitalism.
Useful idiots all the same. You won't improve your situation at all. Under socialism only the party higher-ups and their relatives prosper. You'll either be overworked or underpaid or both, with no choice of where you'll work. They'll shift you around the country on a whim on jobs assigned to you by the party.
yes because what you described is definitely socialism. Myself and all my worker buddies dedicate ourselves to building a strong trade union and socialist movement so that a bunch of party officials can live it up. That's our whole objective. Not any of this workers control of the means of production business. I get your point that it's failed before and it turned into a dictatorship. But capitalism didn't always have a 10/10 record either, the Russian revolution was about as successful as establishing a socialist workers democracy as the French revolution was at implementing liberal bourgeois democracy. Both failed, but informed later generations.
That's what happened 100% of the times it's been tried, yet you still try it thinking you'll do something different...it won't, get a grip. Capitalism works communism didn't.
Myself and all my worker buddies dedicate ourselves to building a strong trade union and socialist movement so that a bunch of party officials can live it up.
Congratulations mr. party chairman!
really? You must do a lot of research to say the same thing happened in every instance there was a socialist revolution. And it seems like an odd thing to say given how untrue it is. What happened to the revolution in Russia in 1917 was not the same as what happened to the revolution in Iran in 1979. But they all failed...failed at what? What did the revolutions of the 20th century fail to do? Create a nation state as powerful as the US? That was never the objective. Make everyone equal? Also not the goal of the revolutions. To get rid of the regime was the goal of every revolution, and to get closer to a society where the workers have a say over the industry the work in, where democracy is practiced in the workplace. To say that every single revolution and the subsequent government that took power did nothing to advance the interests of the working class is nonsense.
Americans have this tendency of comparing socialist countries to their own. But have you ever heard the expression "don't compare yourself to others, compare yourself to who you were yesterday" the same thinking should be applied to revolutions. Was the Cuban revolution the greatest thing ever? No, but is it better than the Batista regime? By a long way.
to get closer to a society where the workers have a say over the industry the work in, where democracy is practiced in the workplace
They also failed to do that but you don't mention it. The party dictated everything and everyone had to comply or the secret police was coming after your ass.
I'm not american...I speak from my countries perspective in which 2 types of socialism/communism have been tried. Both were garbage, impoverished us and it still affects us to this day. Bugger off with your commie bullshit.
yeah Romania really gave a good whack at trying to make a great socialist state. It totally wasn't a satelite state created from Moscow to serve their interests. I'm sure you were exposed to the true power of the proletariat in control.
Your country had a dictatorship under the false image of communism. It in no way what so ever resembles what communism is.
We had stalinism and our own brand of socialism.
"Not real communism" meme is true in your case...sod off.
Climate catastrophy? Lol you mean people having to move inland about a hundred miles? Oh nooo the horror!
As someone who does live inland, in an agricultural sector (our local feeds about 40% of Ontario) and when you watch as millions of high yield produce be reduced to dry heaps of fiber, you'll know that climate change isn't only about the coast lines.
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You dont take into account that the worlds largest swathes of land; antarctica, northern canada, and northern russia become habitable and farmable land.
Also, that winter is the worst thing ever. You do realize we currently live in an ice age correct?
Yeah that's not actually how climate change works...
So when it gets warmer it wont get warmer in arctic and antarctic areas? Im gonna need some elaboration.
You think destroying vast portions of the earth, famine, genocides, political instability on a global scale, and causing mass extinction of plants and animals is ok because russia will then get ohio type weather? Do you think you will be able to afford to live in a decent part of the planet when everyone in the world is trying to move there to survive? When the last freshwater left has been privatized? Bruh, youre not thinking this through.
Political instability and famine where? Not in developed countries. The countries that will be in turmoil are countries that are constantly in turmoil. They cant function properly in the best of circumstances so fuck em.
Fresh water is going nowhere. Its not going to stop raining. There are also desalinators. How will there be famine with an increase in farmable land and year round farming on most of the planet?
Will i be able to afford to live where i live now? Certainly. However, I would move to Antarctica.
The majority of time on the planet in which there has been life there have been no ice caps. You all act like this is the optimum climate when that is impossible. Life thrives in heat. Plants thrive in CO2. Larger oceans mean a healthier planet. Melting the ice caps increase ocean size and habitable land. Its a win win. People simply have to move or die. No different than 99% of human history.
Just noticed your username. Nevermind.
You realize there are plenty of people that live in places where the only thing 100 miles from the coastline is ocean right? Oh right you only care about people in a similar situation to yours.
We probably all should be vegetarians..
But animals are just so damn yummie!
They are but there are a lot of really good fake meats out there. There’s a brand I get called gardien that is my holy grail now and really easy to cook.
And then there’s field roast (burgers, sausages, etc) that also has gained the love of bbq lovers vegan and Omni alike.
And then the beyond burger and impossible burgers that actually get more meat eater buyers than vegan buyers! Actually freaks out some vegans because it’s too close to the real thing.
Definitely worth a try if taste is the only thing stopping you from not eating meat
And if you're not into fake meat, there are plenty of ways to eat healthily and deliciously without them! Not every meal needs meat or a meat substitute, it just needs the right protein balance. There's plenty of ways to get that without feeling like you're missing out on the main dish.
You know if we ate bugs we would be even more carbon neutral.
Not the yummiest animals though.
What are you talking about! So much more crunchy!!
Soooo your taste buds are more important than the environment, animal welfare and your health?? Also vegan food is some of the best tasting food, when cooked and seasoned right imo
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You must have a pretty boring diet if you think something needs meat to taste good
I mean, I would rather have real meat than fake meat. I've had good vegan, but it's no comparison to meat. They're two different sports.
Vegan doesn't mean "fake meat". Pasta with tomato sauce is vegan.
Oh no you misunderstand me. I mean I've eaten vegan "chicken" And it was great. It just can't hold a candle to the real thing.
Being vegan doesn't mean eating vegan chicken lmao.
It's better to skip the fake meat entirely and just eat whole food, plant based meals, imo. Plant based meals are delicious, and fake meat only serves to make people not like it because then they compare it to real meat.
Yea but a goat curry can't hold a candle to Vegan curry.
Usually no, unless you are planning to may a very bland sauce.
What recipe are you following that requires animal products for your tomato sauce?
Typically Parmesan and/or Romano cheeses are added
I don't see how not adding cheese would make it bland. All the vegan tomato sauce I've had has been excellent. The flavor mostly comes from the spices and garlic.
Any recipes or store bought recommendations? All the vegan sauce I've had has been bland, but I would like to try again before writing it off.
Yes.
Also vegan food is some of the best tasting food, when cooked and seasoned right
Whoa thank god you were here to tell RadicalPoopParticle what opinion he's supposed to hold on food.
A lot of people don't know how good vegan food is cus they've never tried it.
I make my own from time to time. One of my favorites is a simple orange, tomato, and fennel penne, you can add parmesan if you’re vegetarian and it’s great either way.
Parmesan isn't vegetarian.
Then what the fuck is the difference between a vegetarian and a vegan
Parmesan (and other cheeses) is made with rennet.
an enzyme... in the stomach of mammals? How is that a part of the animal?
From the wiki:
"Dried and cleaned stomachs of young calves are sliced into small pieces and then put into salt water or whey....After some time (overnight or several days), the solution is filtered. The crude rennet that remains in the filtered solution can then be used to coagulate milk." OR "Deep-frozen stomachs are milled"
Isn't it more of a byproduct then? Can't vegetarians eat that?
Firstly, that might suggest that the hard-cheese industry globally is small enough that it can be sustained entirely through the sourcing of a by-product of another industry without creating extra demand. I find that extremely unlikely. Cheese is definitely creating demand for rennet, which is demonstrably reliant upon dead cows. Secondly, the end product wouldn't exist without the deliberate death of an animal, and it's production is contingent upon ingredients from a dead animal.
This is of course a central issue with vegetarianism in that dairy and eggs are both absolutely implicated in animal death and suffering.
How so?
Parmesan (and other cheeses) is made with rennet.
Thanks for the info! Are there different camps of vegetarians when it comes to this? Since this seems to be an animal byproduct rather than animal tissue?
I'm sure there are, yes. Don't let perfect be the enemy of...etc etc.
In reality of course all dairy (and eggs) is already product of animal death and suffering, so a further ingredient in cheese also being animal derived is relatively inconsequential I guess. I'm vegan, so I'm not sure what the current zeitgeist might be for veggies in regards to rennet.
I wish you had said why, it’s often made with animal fats it looks like. I wonder if my cheap grocery store brand is though?
Edit: not fat, stomach enzymes
yep. Parmesan (and other cheeses) is made with rennet.
Would that be listed in the ingredients? I looked up the Harris Teeter brand I get and it doesn’t have it listed. I’m guessing my cheap grocery store fake Parmesan probably doesn’t have it.
It's hard to say. Some do, some don't. It largely depends on where you're from. I found this:
"The problem for vegetarian consumers is determining whether a particular cheese contains animal ingredients. The FDA does not require that the cheese ingredient label denote the type of rennet....Cheese makers can mix animal, plant, and microbial varieties [of rennet] and just label them "enzymes.""
So it's essentially possible to make cheeses (including rennet hungry cheeses) from non-cow rennet, but there's no specific requirement for cheese producers (in the US) to list the type of rennet[s] used. This is of course problematic for vegetarians who don't want to directly consume any animal derived products at all.
Lol the ingredients didn’t even list an enzyme. Probably made of saw dust.
It's probably vegan!
Lol
Considering there are no protein receptors on the human tongue and all you taste is spices and salt when you eat meat.
Yep
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I will, enjoy living your short life not enjoying the taste of meat and sitting on your pedestal EDIT: I would like to point out that I respect that people choose a vegan diet and have autonomy to choose what they eat and enjoy just like I do
I will, enjoy living your SHORT life
I think you meant to say "long and healthy life that's free from emotional attachments to food"
Yeah
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Enjoy your comparisons on extremist diets vs regular diets while pretending you are healthier.
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lol they do not holy shit
Feel free to link your ‘source’ and again, comparing extremism to not extremism is useless. Feel free to start a study on vegans v non vegans with similar health metrics most importantly weight, lean muscle mass, exercise length, etc
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Yea after decades of meat eating ... and steroids
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You’re ignorant of the science of nutrition and compared yourself to world class athletes and a former world class bodybuilder and a chiseled actor who has been vegan for I believe two years.
Get a grip
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You’re an idiot and you don’t know how health and nutrition works. Although of course you are correct about those diseases and the majority of the population. That’s just statistics.
I wish I could follow you and smirk when you die.
Holy shit you're a moron.
Alright I'm gonna apologize because that was a douchey response. Genuinely. I respect your opinion and also respectfully disagree to the point where I'm not going to change my views but I can definitely see where you're coming from.
Edit: I'm getting downvoted for apologizing for a douche comment I made. Either that or people are downvoting me because I won't change my views and if that's the case that's childish.
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Than why can no one cook it right?? Literally even vegan restaurant i go to is awful, and they do it professionally. I love love the vegetarian dish at place that also serve meat, but you take away the skill and suddenly they can’t cook at all.
Really? Have you tried cooking vegan dishes yourself? A lot of curries are vegan and they're delicious. It's much more impressive when places make a delicious vegan meal
It's called butter...
Yo
“vegan food is some of the best tasting food”... No. Just, no.
Spoken like someone whose forgotten how good a medium rare steak tastes.
Good one, I haven't heard that before.
Yes
Conservation is ethical. Hunting is a major part of that.
Mmmmhmm
Antifreeze is also yummy
Antifreeze is also yummy
We probably all should be vegetarians..
>muh moral highground
Nah, eat what you want.
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Your taste buds are more important than other animals and the environment?
Yeah, most people likely possess this mindset whether they'd like to admit it or not. Meat is necessary if you want to avoid poppin' pills for compensation, which doesn't seem healthy at all. Bunch of opportunists doing whatever makes them feel better. ಠ_ಠ
Also
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Ouch, people on reddit aren't happy today. You can't reach a moral highground with that attitude either, how unfortunate!
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But it’s the biggest ethical decision you can make.
No, restraining yourself from eating certain types of food to look better seems like a faked moral-compass. Especially since meat is necessary unless you wanna compensate through pills. No member of the animal empire would feel sympathetic or think twice about using humans or other animals as nutrition to survive.
So why did you click on this thread?
Because it literally was at the top of my front page.
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defending frivolous animal abuse.
With that mindset, the vast majority of the living population "defends animal abuse". People like to live happily and healthy, it's not like they receive that pleasure from watching animals being tortured.
Red pill or the blue pill?
Why is this downvoted... it’s a freaking Matrix reference.
I know right.
Having children. I believe that having them is the most evil act a person can commit.
Username...
What's wrong with my username?
Checks out
Iono, eating kids seems worse than having kids to me.
So I assume you are a vegetarian?
Animals eat their kids all the time so it's perfectly natural.
Animals also have offspring all the time too. I'd still say eating them is worse.
So I assume youre a vegetarian?
You can assume, but you'd be wrong.
K
Nice to see you here, fellow antinatalist.
Cheers!
Not as bad as killing someone that did not wanted to die, for no good reason, multiple times a year.
The downvotes... and not a single counterargument.
Kudos to you for not imposing potential, unimaginable suffering on a non-consenting party.
In order for there to be a counterargument there would have to be an argument.
The argument is that it's immoral to have children because you're subjecting someone to potential, unimaginable suffering without his/her consent.
It's undeniable that life contains suffering. It's undeniable that some of that suffering is unavoidable. It's undeniable that it is impossible to guarantee happiness, but it is possible to guarantee suffering at various points in someone's life. It's impossible to guarantee that happiness will outweigh suffering in someone's life based on one's own opinions, because the offspring may not share those views.
Based on these undeniable facts, it's immoral to subject someone to existence just so you can feel good about yourself as a parent.
Why is it immoral to subject someone to the potential of suffering without their consent? Most people would contend that the intention of causing harm or taking actions that directly cause harm are "immoral." Is saving a life immoral because that person can experience suffering later? Is not committing suicide because any potential action you take, regardless of how minor or innocently intended, could incidently cause unimaginable suffering in others? Most people's common sense says this doesn't add up.
Why is it immoral to subject someone to the potential of suffering without their consent?
Because it's wrong. It's wrong to impose suffering on someone who didn't say it's okay. I don't see how you think it's okay to force someone into something that could potentially be miserable.
Most people would contend that the intention of causing harm or taking actions that directly cause harm are "immoral.
The action that directly causes harm is procreation itself. If someone gets cancer, whose fault is it? It's not cancer's fault; it's not the person's fault (unless they are a 20-year smoker, etc.). It all falls back to the person who brought them into existence.
Is saving a life immoral because that person can experience suffering later? Is not committing suicide because any potential action you take, regardless of how minor or innocently intended, could incidently cause unimaginable suffering in others?
Neither of these has anything to do with bringing a potential life of suffering into existence. Someone already alive might want to be saved. Committing suicide is immoral if it affects your loved ones and makes them suffer. I'm not arguing against suicide or saving lives. I'm arguing against bringing life into existence because the person you are forcing into existence doesn't consent to the suffering you impose on it.
It's wrong to impose suffering on someone who didn't say it's okay.
That's not exactly right. You are creating the conditions where suffering is possible, not imposing suffering. Otherwise, you seem to be saying it's wrong because it's wrong. It's not immediately apparent to me that creating the conditions where something is possible means you are responsible of that thing happens.
The action that directly causes harm is procreation itself
No, again, procreation creates the conditions that suffering, among other things, is possible (perhaps likely) but does not directly cause suffering (outside of childbirth perhaps). This is a leap.
Let's firm up these examples:
If you mind someone unconscious who cannot consent to being saved, is it immoral to save them? Is it immoral to drive, because driving is very likely vs walking to cause suffering? If your suicide will probably not cause suffering in those around you (let's say, you have no family or friends), do you have a moral obligation to commit suicide because your continued exists might cause other people suffering?
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I hope you're kidding. Committing suicide is not an option for people who care for loved ones with disabilities or those who have family who are close to them. It would cause more suffering than they are experiencing in their current life.
Furthermore, how are you not imposing suffering on someone by forcing them into existence that is plagued by a chronic disease they don't control?
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White people need to have more kids. If you're not white though, knock yourself out with those abortions.
The only white people say this shit live and act like the stereotypes they ascribe to other races.
From on white person to another, please shut the fuck up.
We should all stay in our rooms and never come out. Once all 7.5 billion of us are dead , the planet can recover
damn my guy, you good?
I think I've evidenced that I am not
wanna talk about it?
Not especially. Suffice to say I'm the tool that leads to happiness for most of my friends and loved ones but I never get my own chance at it
stop trying to please everyone and just take a step back and relax for a bit.
The planet can recover from pretty much anything. In fact, it's an inanimate object, it doesn't need to recover.
That's what you think, you filthy, filthy corrupted creature. But Earth HAS A SOUL! Soul that it uses to support all the life and water and humans have ruined it! More like boomans!
Chill out Sephiroth
in fact
Hmmm
You first
Hey bud. You find me an instantaneous and painless death method that removes my ability to reconsider and I'll take it
Not killing unborn children.
Edit: seems like I angered the baby murderers.
You know, this is why people don't like anti-abortionists. You're always so pushy and militant. You'll never gonna get anyone on your side with that attitude.
I have anti-abortionists friends and they never push their agenda on me when I go to the abortion clinic with them. We should all respect our reproductive preferences.
Jesus Christ.
It was sarcasm ;).
Oh yeah, that would be really nice.
Let's, instead, have all the children! And then have them suffer emotionally and sometimes even physically abusive childhoods because some people just don't make good parents. Or! let them live in poverty instead!
Because you know, people only care about the "unborn children" before they are born. After that, nobody cares if they have a good and worthy live ahead of them.
You know, implying that it’s better for impoverished people to abort their unplanned pregnancies rather than raise their children really devalues all the great things that were accomplished by people who were raised in impoverished homes.
Yes having a kid is expensive but it’s not impossible, and even in the us there are many government programs that make sure the children and mothers have enough food to eat and enough money for necessities. Most kids in the us are educated for free, with transportation to and from the school.
No, it’s not easy and it’s a huge change for anyone but the fact of the matter is that it’s doable and people do it every day. On the other hand an unplanned pregnancy will get in the way of the mother and fathers life goals/ desires/ plans and it’s easier to not have to sacrifice what you want for another. Being a parent is really the ultimate sacrifice and that’s why people choose to abort- they aren’t willing to make that sacrifice.
You don't have to change my own words in order to make me look like the bad guy. I neve said people with financial problems should and HAVE to abort their unplanned pregnancies. I'm only saying that, if those people want to abort, they should have the right to do it while not be called murderers and being judged by others. Just let people live their lives.
Yes, it's doable. But some people just don't want to and that's perfectly alright! Children are not a punishment for sex. Some people are very responsible about it and it can still happen accidentally. That doesn't mean a couple should have to make the "sacrifice" of raising a kid if they don't want to. What's not to understand here? It's so simple.
Also, you shouldn't be romantizing the idea of "being a parent is a sacrifice". If someone really wants to be a parent and has the emotional capacity to, it should be a good thing, not a sacrifice. It's still a lot of work, but at least that parent loves and wants the kid.
Side note: not everyone lives in america tho.
So you'd rather just excuse killing babies rather than maybe teaching safe sex habits and proper sexual education.
Because you know, people only care about the "unborn children" before they are born. After that, nobody cares if they have a good and worthy live ahead of them.
I've noticed this is a huge talking point from pro choicers but show me one POLICY that reflects this type of thinking. Is it the evil conservatives who believe that parents should have the choice of what school their children go to rather than being forced to go to shitty public schools? No, you people would rather kill a baby than to be forced to face the consequences of your actions. You people are morally reprehensible.
What? Where did I say I'm against teaching safe sex? I'm completly in favor of it. Sex ad should be a lot better than what they teach in schools.
But I can be pro safe sex and pro choice at the same time. And accidents can still happen when people use BC.
An embryo is not a baby. So no one is killing babies, I'm sorry but you're retoric is wrong.
What is an embryo? An extension of the mother? Why does it have its own heart beat? Why does it have its own genetic code? Why does it have its own brain and heart? Why does it have its own blood type? Just because it’s in the womb and isn’t fully developed doesn’t make it any less of a baby.
Google is for friend.
In other words, I don’t know enough about the subject, let someone else answer for me.
you people
You actually view the world in terms of teams, huh? Liberal vs Conservative. Nothing I say will make you stop holding that line of thought, but why should sex have consequences? It appears that you believe birth control is okay to use - surely, surely you'd know that economically disadvantaged people are going to be the ones that aren't able to afford to be on birth control, or have a steady supply of condoms? The people who need non-medical abortions the most are the ones that can't afford to give quality lives to their children. There IS a very clear policy of not caring about children after they're born, and it's the clear pursuit of the elimination of welfare programs. Every openly anti-abortionist I've known has also been against 'poor mothers on welfare collecting checks for all of their kids'. Do you know why some public schools are shitty? It's because they don't have any freaking FUNDING. You cannot simultaneously force people to have the children they accidentally conceived while ignoring that their lineage has no hope of breaking their economic cycle. Viewing the situation as a deserved 'consequence' is what's truly morally reprehensible.
It’s not a consequence it’s a responsibility. I don’t argue consequences, pro abortioners do.
But why is it a responsibility, and who would the responsibility be toward? Why is choosing to get an abortion not a responsible choice if the child will not have a stable life? If you believe it's wrong because of your religion, why do you think it's justified to force your religion on other people?
Murder is murder regardless of religion.
It's not that simple and it's not murder.
It is. To both.
You didn't address any of my reasons for why people are pro-choice or the difficulties people face in raising children with diminishing help from society. It's utter nonsense to call abortion murder while not caring about what happens to the child after birth. If you want to force people to have accidentally conceived children you'd also better be out there campaigning for better public schools, health care, and be absolutely apoplectic about the removal of welfare programs like free school lunches and afterschool activities. But you're a hypocrite that described public schools as 'shitty'. Think about it - would an unwanted child ever have the opportunity to go to a private school? It must be nice to hide behind the illusion of being morally superior, insulated from the problems of the rest of the world. You have no empathy for your fellow man.
Well, what happens after a child is born is really a separate discussion than what happens before the baby is born. Just because you don’t want to see babies murdered doesn’t mean you have to personally care for them. I’m sure you don’t want to see someone killing all the homeless in the streets but you’re also not gonna take every homeless into your house.
But why do you want the baby to be born if you know it will be miserable?
Imagine a pregnant woman. Now imagine the fact she's not mentally and financially prepared yet. Or maybe she doesn't want kids, and will recent the child if she has it.
The fact "pro lifers" care some much about a baby being born is hypocritical. They don't care about the life that unwanted child will have. They are not even "pro lifers", they are just pro birthers.
Many women don't get abortions because society makes them feel guilty in order for them to keep the child. And for what really? If the woman didn't want that kid in the first place, do you really think it'll have a good life?
And what are woman supposed to do if they simply don't have the money to support another human being? Just pull the money out of their ass? Get real.
Also, a embryo is not a baby :) noone is "murdering" babies.
Depends whether they are sentient or not, and whether the killing itself causes suffering.
So if I put you in a coma I can murder you
I wouldn't mind dying instantly and painlessly if I didn't even expect it. There would be no mind to mind anything, after all.
It wouldn't cause me to have any negative sentient experiences in any way.
However I have shit to do before I die, like preventing suffering in other sentient beings, that's a big one.
On top of that, some other people would miss me, so you would cause negative sentient experiences to THEM. And since other sentient beings matter just as much as I do, yeah that would not be cool.
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"The baby was never sentient, and isn't sentient when you kill it."
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sentient
http://www.beginbeforebirth.org/in-the-womb/fetal-development
All of the fetus’s senses will be stimulated naturally during the course of pregnancy, except for vision. The fetus has the ability to detect stimuli from as early as 8 weeks, in the case of touch. The environment of the fetus is not one of sensory deprivation
So using your words (sentient), by definition the baby is sentient. Also, thank you for recognizing that it is a baby and not a fetus.
Most abortions are done before the 8 week mark for a reason.
Edit: also agree that you should be a vegan, if you are so worried about sentient beings being needlessly murdered.
I'm worried about humans, not animals. I cant be charged for murder if I kill an animal. And exactly, abortions performed after 8 weeks, once the baby is quote"sentient" should constitute as murder based on OPs words.
Abortions performed too long after the pregnancy started are normally cases of rape, incest or situations where both the woman's and the babies' life would be in danger.
Why do you care about embryos but not animals tho? Animals suffer a lot more them an embryo being removed. Animals are already here, on this planet, and can feel pain and fear. At least an embryo is not aware of what's happening, it's just an early form of life that will feel a brief sort of pain for the wellness of the woman who is already a sentient person.
Why do you care so much about animals and so little about humans? Less than 4% of abortions are in cases of rape/incest/health of mother (http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html) so why do you find it morally acceptable to justify killing innocent children due to inconvenience?
I care a lot about humans and animals alike. Not about embryos so much. Most abortions happen before they are sentient. And even in abortions made between the 10/13 week mark, I still care more about the full grown human that is the woman, as well as her mental health, than I care for a very small fetus that is not aware of anything yet.
Edit: I'm really sorry if that feels like a cold point of you, but it's the truth. I put the health of the woman first
Justify killing babies all you want, doesn't make it right.
An embryo is not a baby, I'm sorry.
Where is the hypocrisy here? Someone says that they inherently value human life, but if you don't value animal life on the same level as human life then it doesn't matter? Wtf are you smoking?
Or not forcing raped women to have the kids of a rapist.
no one would be forcing them to do anything. What a shit argument. Lets not act like all abortions are rape victims too. What a stupid way to shape public policy.
If you think an abortion is murder, than rape victims shouldn't be allowed to abort either.
Let's be honest here: it's not the "killing of babies" you oppose. It's about women having "sex without consequences."
Right?
I agree with you. Sadly Reddit will not
Sad that this point gets so much hate from people who say don't eat chickens and cows
Perspective is waning in the world
Your perspective is the one that's lacking if you think people only choose to not eat meat because it's "mean to animals." Sure, some feel that way, but if you actually talked to them you'd find that many modern vegetarians do it for resources management and conservation (the space and resources for raising domestic animals takes land away from wild animal populations, driving extinction) and health reasons. The same argument applies to keeping the human population from growing at an unchecked rate. Hence why it makes sense for someone to hold both views at the same time!
As a pro choice person I agree.
Pfft, I don't see why women should have to take responsibility for their actions. Apart from say rape and etc cases I think it's just classic sexism if the Govt. doesn't give them all the rights without any of the responsibility. Isn't that what being an adult is all about?
Hmm... are you suggesting men don't have to take "responsability for their actions" too? I mean, noone makes a baby alone.
What a backward way of thinking, jesus christ.
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Did you know women can get accidentally pregnant while using BC? It happens sometimes. Stop acting like it's just something that happens when woman are irresponsible and have ~~~unprotected sex™. It sooths your narrative, but it's not the real world.
Also, I completely agree man are on a disadvantage in those situations. It's pretty unfair that a woman can choose to keep the child without the man wanting to, while he is forced to pay for a child that, if the choice was his, would have been aborted.
Dude I literally said I was only speaking generally and that there are situations where abortion is completely valid and the one that you bought up is one of them but IMO apart from the obvious ones of rape/incest/health/etc I think women who suffer from a slew of mental health issues is also part of that, especially ones with already massive stigmas attached to them like but certainly not limited to ADHD, Bipolar, DID, BPD, etc, because you can want to do something but are literally unable to.
I don't think that men should have equal say in the abortion process as women though actually, because women are the ones who go through the process of giving birth, while it affects men and very much so, it affects women more. I just think that if a woman wants to go ahead with a pregnancy for example and a man doesn't then he shouldn't be liable for financially supporting that child and her mother (and vice-versa where applicable?).
I agree. If the woman is still able to make the choice to abort or keep it, and the man doesn't want to be a part of it, there should be a way for him to not be involved in it at all. The woman makes the choice of keeping it, but fully knowing she will have to support the child on her own. That would be fair.
Still, I believe all women should have the right to abort if they want. And I don't care if her reason is just that she doesn't want to be a mother, sure, it's still valid.
Look, far be it from me to say people shouldn't do what they want, that would probably be the most hypocritical thing I could say, and while I don't like abortion, I agree that it should be an option for women.
But I also think that with rights come responsibilities, that's the deal, and if there's no responsibility attached to a right then it defeats the purpose. The right to free speech comes with the responsibility to listen and defend speech you don't like, the right to bear arms comes with the responsibility to acquire and subsequently take up said arms when confronted with tryanny, and the right to an get an abortion has to go hand in hand say with the responsibility of being a mother.
Otherwise it's just a thing that happens with no examination of how someone ended up in that situation and why they don't think they would be a good parent at that moment in time (if they ever want to be a parent in the first place). Add to that the toxicity around just having a discussion about it, framed as if it's anti-women, and a lot of it is but not all of, maybe not even most of it, after all the underlying connotation is that women should be responsible for their actions where applicable, and if they don't want to be, and that's cool, but then that's like saying we should treat women like children and not adults.
Like I said, some women due to things out of their sphere of control have their decision making agency stripped away from them, I FEEL for them so hard and everything should be done to help them reclaim it, but blanketly saying all women should as a right, as well meaning as the emotion is (and it is), I think is inadvertently an insult to more than half the general population.
But I ain't got no vagina so WTF do I know, I'm literally just talking out of my ass.
I got a little lost reading your opinion and i think i kinda of understood it but... I mean, yeah. People have to be responsible. If someone is having sex, even with BC, the person has to know that pregnancy is still a risk. That's the responsible part, trying to use the best BC method that work for them.
But I really don't feel like a woman should be stuck with a kid for the rest of their life just because of a a mistake/accident. It really hicks me that so many people talk about babies as a punishment for woman enjoying themselves and maybe making a mistake one time. I also have the best interest of the child in mind on this matter. A kid is not a punishment. Putting someone on this planet just because seems pretty irresponsible and pointless to me. I mean, we are already so many. By all means have kids if you want to, but people should only be having kids if they have the means to. And lots of people act like abortions shouldn't happen because "oh she should keep the baby now", but for what? It wasn't planned and she doesn't want to. What does arguing about responsibility will accomplish here? Choosing an abortion can, sometimes, be the most responsible thing to do in that matter. Because a kid isn't just a kid, is a future adult we are talking about, it's not an object of punishment. If a kid is going to be put on this planet, it might as well be worth it.
I got a little lost reading your opinion and i think i kinda of understood it but... I mean, yeah.
Hahaha! That's fair, that's more than fair. Let me try not to wax lyrical this time.
(I failed. TL;DR – Abortions shouldn’t be something that’s easy to do or has no cost as it is only through a destruction of a part of our persona that we can create a new, better one.)
Agree with what you said, a child is not a punishment for the crime of a woman having an unwanted pregnancy. Not now and should never be. Hypothetically, even if it was, the "punishment" is completely disproportionate to the "crime". It would be like "punishing" someone with a mortgage for the "crime" of not paying their phone bill, and also completely counter-intuitive as I’ll explain below.
Especially if that person usually pays on time and couldn't because they use their phone to pay the bill online and now they can't because they don't have access to mobile internet or a phone to contact customer service because they're on holiday in Bumfuck, Idaho and the company changed their billing date. Same thing with an abortion for a woman who say has ADHD and is unable to plan and execute due to a dysregulation of biological neurotransmitters and literally just couldn't bring herself to physically get the pill she needs thanks to the condom she had in her purse breaking because it was old and only necessary since the guy didn't have one (surprise surprise) but then got a friend to bring it to her only for it to end up not working because of the medication she's been prescribed for her emotional issues that have developed after a life-time of having ADHD.
But, while the consequences of just one unpaid bill or the consequences of just one unprotected sex scenario would be marginal to the point of inconsequential, a pattern of unpaid bills over a period of time or a pattern of unprotected sex over a period of time would almost certainly indicate an inability to responsibly manage my affairs. It's not based on whether I'm a good person or not, it's based on what's in the best interests of the bank or say wider society.
So a pattern of multiple unpaid bills affects my credit history and hampers my chances of getting a mortgage, as it’s in the bank’s interests and also in the individuals as an unpaid mortgage is almost certainly going to be a big, completely avoidable issue in their life. So in the interests of wider society and in the interests of the individual, should we prevent somehow women who have multiple abortions over a period of time from being able to be a mother in the future until they’ve put in the work to prove their ability to be responsible?
Well no, fuck no in fact, of course not, not because it’s not a good idea in theory but because it won’t work in practice since people are not robots, at the same time I just don’t think it should be something that’s easy to get, it’s not easy at the moment, it’s hard, and maybe on some level it should stay that way. We shouldn’t be trying to remove the cost of having an abortion to zero, because genuinely I think it’s bad for women who want to be mothers. Generally as it stands its such a shitty experience that women don’t want to go through it again and again, and the only way to do that is to be more responsible, which is going to help them come motherhood, but if it’s easy, then as I said before, there’s no self-examination of what an individual could have done and that reduces the chance of future character development.
Fuck me I really tried not to ramble…
I agree! What's next? They need proof to say a man did something to her instead of just calling the cops and he gets arrested and loses his house and job?
The nerve!
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You love bacon ... pigs love not being raised in terrible conditions and slaughtered.
Or just don't eat meat at all because you don't need it, and it's fucking cruel. Ethical meat does not exist
Nobody should have a job that requires drug testing. A breathalyzer before my shift? Sure. Firing me for smoking a joint 2 weeks ago? Fuck off.
Same goes with alcohol. Who cares about that six pack I drank earlier today? I can drive the delivery truck totally fine
It's like you're reiterating a point i already made, and you don't understand the other half of my statement.
How’s the unemployment office this time of year? Fucking stoner.
I wouldn't know, i don't work there. And i am not currently fucking.
Eat less meat and from sources that treat the animals as humanely as possible and avoid ressource waste. If you know how to cook, try vegetarian.
Completely eliminate the consumption of animal-based products from your lives.
If you're not eating wild meat that either you killed yourself a hunter gave/sold, you should be eating vegan. Factory farming just about the closest thing to evil I can think of.
That being said, I just had a bacon gouda from Starbucks, suh...
That being said, I just had a bacon gouda from Starbucks
Gotta treat yourself every once in a while, eh?
Nope, just a weak willed hypocrite
Holy Californians....
No, there is nothing ethically superior about going vegan. You are an animal that eats other animals. Deal with it. Do you think lions are morally inferior to goats?
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holy shit that was some heavy handed propaganda. Mentioned racism and sexism about 16 times in the first five minutes. took them about 3:25 to show an image of Hitler, lol.
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K good luck with that honey
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Animals have to die for other animals to live. It is literally the foundation of biology. Factory farming sucks, sure. If you don't like it, the best thing you can do for the planet is not have any children. That would have like 1000x the effect of not eating a cheeseburger.
Humans don’t have to though
It's reduces animal suffering and environmental damage. The fact that other creatures cause harm is irrelevant.
You just can’t grasp a simple concept. Amazing...
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It’s 2018 and they’re still using Muh Lions
Question our politicians, Trump comes to mind.
If you eat meat, the animals should not only live well but also die well. Most abattoirs are horrendous places.
How can an animal that doesn't want to die, die well?
Without any stress, done quickly & humanely.
Please look into this. This is not the reality.
I'm very sorry to tell you this is not how any animals are slaughtered.
Uhhhhh I'm very sorry to tell you this but the three captives in my basement have been eating popcorn all afternoon whilst playing PS4, and when I kill them later they will all be fine with it.
Thomas Hobbes had a big nose. Bigger than mine for sure.
Anyone else scrolling through the comments trying to find that condescending vegan comment we all know has to be here somewhere?
They seem to be greatly outnumbered by the polite vegan comments.
Tip: Sort by controversial.
ITT: Tree huggers
Also vegans. Tons and tons and TONS of vegans. We get it, you're better than us.
The title of this post is literally 'What are some ethical life choices we should all be making?'
If you didn't want to see a list of things you could do to be a better person, why would you even click?
To see realistic answers
Being vegan is so realistic that millions of people actually do it.
Yea we get it you’re vegan
What about that makes you feel so butthurt?
I’m allergic to grass
Nobody eats grass.
Cows do
Vegans don't eat cows so I don't see how your grass allergy would get in the way here
What about milk?
Vegans don't drink milk, except for vegan babies who drink human milk.
Then how they make milkshakes?
Soy/cashew/rice/coconut/almond milk
Rice doesn’t have nipples
K am vegan now
thx
Hang on wut bout cheese?
There are a few companies that make vegan cheeses. Daiya, Field Roast and Kite Hill to name a few. They have gotten better over time.
Are they American?
Field Roast is.
I’m in nz we don’t have rice milk here, we have normal milk and banana. Strawberry now and then
Thank you
But the topic is veganism? So it makes sense that s/he is mentioning it?
Very few of the pro-vegan comments in this thread have implied that at all.
Oh you bet your ass we are. We’re helping the animal love their lives, not giving ourself cancer or diseases and helping the environment.
Carry on your meat eating Neanderthal antics, will you?
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Ah that’s funny, a lot of people like me.
Try again next time, son.
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Bro, you don’t even know how elite I am
I’m so fucking elite even one if my elite looks will let you know I’m so elite.
You are very wrong, my friend. For he who jumps to conclusions, makes himself look like an utter cunt.
I can't even tell if you're satire or for real anymore, to be honest. You'd make a good troll.
Bahaha
salty
and a bunch of grass grazing prey animals waiting to get slaughtered
Ehhh, humanity had a decent run.
Don't just give yourself away, men and women, alike. Sex has become incredibly cheap over the last 10-20 years, and it's because it's looked at so casually (Which is largely d/t the media.)
Edit: Why the hate? You guys honestly think it's good that sex is cheap? I'm not Christian or anything, so this isn't a biblical conquest. It's about maintaining some kind of sanctity. Sex is as intimate as it gets; if that's not special and exciting anymore, then what is?
Why would I want to make sex more expensive?
~~Expensive~~ Valuable
Which is good, because sexual (throughout history and currently in the middle east) is usually shorthand for female oppression.
I'm sorry, I don't see the connection you're drawing. Would you care to clarify?
Sorry, I forgot a word. I meant to say sexual oppression is usually shorthand for female oppression.
Living in a sex negative (as opposed to positive) society throughout history seemed to disproportionately affect women more than men.
I cout out 90% of my beef intake. Not a vegetarian by any means, just switched to more sustainable meats like chicken and pork. Beef is just a horrible environmental drain.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ!
[Rom 10:9 KJV] 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[Eph 3:14-19 KJV] 14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
You can still be an ethical person without religion. Even as a Christian I’ve met plenty of terrible people who claim to follow the Word. On the other hand I’ve met atheists who were extremely kind and compassionate.
[Rom 3:23 KJV] 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[Rom 3:23-26 KJV] 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Eat shit!
Compelling argument, but I’d like to decline.
Don’t have or contribute to having an abortion.
Why are there a sht ton of posts about eating less meat? It makes me want to go out and eat a huge fcking burger right now.
I think most of the answers give rationales.
3edgy5me
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why
A very ethical choice would be to stop supporting the democrat party
It is selfish to want to have your own children. So dont.
First and most important: don't try to push your ethics on people. Chances are you're not right, you just ha e different beliefs.
Second: if they aren't doing direct harm, leave them alone.
Third: if they are doing direct harm, ask yourself if it's objectively harmful or not. 99% of the time, it's not.
Fifth: act ethically according to your current situation. They're not universal and they'll change based on where and when you are.
Sixth: if you believe they're doing direct objective harm, try to mitigate the direct objective harm they're doing.
Seventh: never list the fourth item in a list.
We need to fuck bitches
Buy good quality animal products. From butchers or farm shops or even supermarkets as long as you know it’s ethically raised and sustainably farmed. It’ll cost a little more, but that’s more money going to farmers who can then spend more money raising happy animals. Happy animals taste better.
Taking a hard look at your impact on our environment. How am I going to commute, how do I want to buy products/food, how do I want to spend my money that doesn't support wasteful companies, do I really need a new phone every two years when they use a huge amount of precious metals. Even little things like switching from water bottles to a reusable one is a huge step in the right direction. Every little bit helps.
And if not for this generation, do it for the generations to come. We have a finite limit on all resources on this planet. Let's not waste then because "they were there".
To consider God's side to questions and arguments more than we do.
Donate money to disaster relief if you have some to spare. You never know when you’ll be in a bad situation. Edit: Downvote donations to disaster relief...really?
Not eating meat
Going vegan is pretty ethical, either through the lens of moral impressive or environmental ethic
Eat less meat or dont use planes. Best way to cut your personal CO2. Its not that hard, honest!
Planes are much much more CO2 efficient than cars.
EDIT: card to cars
Interesting i didnt know that. But in the UK at least, flights still contribute one of the largest fractions of a persons yearly co2 emissions. More than a quarter i think.
Stop Smoking in Public. Or in your condo If the Windows of your living Space are adjacnt to Windows of non-smokers.
Reducing our meat n dairy consumption. I know i know..... but it’s still true
R-E-C-Y-C-L-E Recycle
C-O-N-S-E-R-V-E Conserve
Don't you P-O-L-L-U-T-E
Pollute the rivers skies or sea
Or else you're gonna get what you deserve.
But yeah, I separate all my trash.
Don't drive around pointlessly, and especially don't sit in a parking lot and run your car. Park that shit and go inside, there will be AC inside and your phone will work. What kind of selfish idiot waits in a running car for 15-45 minutes?
I do this when I'm on lunch bcause there's nowhere else I can go to eat my lunch in peace, listen to music, and get my nicotine fix.
Radios don't run on gasoline, and I'm assuming you don't smoke with the windows up. So do everything the same but with the engine off.
The AC is the main thing I run the engine for when I'm parked.
Be kind to children, regardless of how their demeanor is perceived in public. You don’t know the factors that have lead them to behave the way they do, and you look like an asshole when you assume you know the reasons.
Honestly my contribution means nothing if statistically no one else is contributing. Strength in numbers is hard when the vast majority are either uninformed, careless or straight up don't care.
Cutting down on meat consumption. If not for the animals, for the planet at least. Don't have stats handy but I believe most green house emmisions are the result of the way we farm them for food.
Being a good tipper!
Be honest. Dont lie.
People are allowed to have secrets
I feel the same way about people who don't return their shopping carts. I judge you so hard.
Understanding everyone is an individual with hopes, dreams and problems. Putting ourselves in the shoes of others and try to understand, instead of hating everything that doesn't align with your own ideology.
Eating less fish and buying guns.
A conscious decision to not record people and/or post online the recording without their permission.
Eat less meat. Really bad for the environment.
Simple question: if everyone did this, would it be OK?
If everyone left the trash on the corner, that'd not be OK. If everyone drove recklessly, that would not be OK. It's simple, but really great questions to ask. If no one voted for Hilary or Trump, that'd be OK. Ha ha ha I'm funny....
Eat a bit less meat.
I've stopped eating pork. I'm no vegan, I'll eat chickens all day long.
But those Pigs... they're too smart. I cant deal with it. Poor things.
(I've also stopped eating lettuce - but that's because it's literally not worth the fucking effort)
Teach your children basic fucking manners!
Virtue signal as much as possible.
Quit single use-plastics.
Listening to child activists.
Make an effort to learn which makeup/skincare/hair care/etc. brands do not test on animals.
Also, shop secondhand and donate things instead of throwing them away whenever possible. When you have to buy new things, buy something that will last as long as possible without needing to be thrown away and replaced.
ITT: vegans
Cut back on plastic as much as possible, e.g. k-cups and over-packaged products. Bottled water goes without saying.
Collectively eliminate hunger and disease.
Reducing your meat and plastic consumption/use
Give up pork and beef.
As Americans we hold vast amounts of wealth, even as lower class citizens we hold more that those in 3rd world countries. Because of industrialization we have enough resources for everybody we just choose not to let other people have them. Why? Because it would be hard. Because they should work harder if they want better stuff. Bullshit! We're all just to damn selfish
Going vegan! It was very difficult to me but the ethics behind it is so justifying. There just honestly aren't any good reasons not to be vegan.
Great website here, super down to earth and lgoical dude: https://www.earthlinged.com/30excuses/
Mind our own business, and not impose upon people unless the situation specifically calls for action.
We should not use plastic at all.
Evict all racists people off the planet let them figure shit out on their own, offworld. Orginaze hackers to make crooks broke and defenseless, mental screen everyone for every job with updated methods, not white pirvlidaged based biasms. Fix white mentality, fix black mentality, fix all mentality because no one is perfect, look at you neo nazi's, Arians and the such for blacks 5%ers, and whatever black hate group that preaches "white devil" and other uneducated or intentionally blissful ignorant bullshit. Sorry when 50 million Americans can't read, or in some English context, ilterate. that means the greater percentage of Americans fails talking, how dafuq do you fail speaking?
How would the process for determining who's racist look? I mean, how do we define who's racist or not?
Some people are definitely easier to identify than others, but don't we all in some ways stereotype and make assumptions based on all kinds of factors? Where will the line be drawn for people to be or not be sent to another planet? Will the person who declines a black person's job application because of some stereotypical image in their subconcious be sent away with the person who explicitly said that black people should not be in their work place?
That's simple, if you have ever slurred, stttemted to misdirect in a racially charged manor, then your racists no matter what, applying a sugar coat to the situation doesn't fix the issue, the acid from the sugar makes it worse for all of us, so in good reguards, while "keepin it real" it would be absolutely best to disengage and punish all racists actors America, if not for violating the very principal of America of itself.
Stop buying Apple.
...why?
Buying your food from local farmers or local food co-ops that buy from local farmers.
Accept Trump as the President and stop complaining about it. Work towards unification instead of separation
Wake the youth, slap those asleep, shake the dumb, and spread the word.
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if I'm not going home soon enough to properly store it I'm not taking it out of the restaurant
Stopping communism.
Can we shoot annoying millennial vegans who are only doing it because it's "trendy" to be vegan and who take every opportunity to tell you what a douchebag you are for eating meat? Here's the thing, most of us are conscious enough to get local produce that is both sustainable and healthy for the economy. There are those who shop at chain grocery stores and rubbish fast food that sources their meats from mass production farms and that's bad and all but seriously, enough about the vegan shit.
On a side note, I do recommend that you choose locally produced ingredient whenever possible. It's better, tastier, healthier and you are supporting your local farmers! Trust me on this one!
Oh and no offence to the normal vegans who are doing it for health reasons and because (and it pains me to say this) properly ethical.
Teaching your kids not to lie and then living it. So many adults lie and go home and tell their kids not to.
For the love of god, stop buying plastic bottles and use a REUSABLE WATER BOTTLE. While we’re at it let’s stop with the straws as well.
And for the girls, lets stop contributing to cosmetic companies that test on animals.
Don't pirate stuff
Of course Reddit would down vote this lmao.
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Become a vegan
punch a vegan?
Chemical castration of every living human.
If everyone goes vegan what are you going to fertilise the fields with? Now all the manure sources are gone?
Minerals and synthetic fertilizer, like how it's done on most farms already.
Animals don't create fertilizer, they just recycle what's there.
Synthetic fertiliser from the petroleum industry? Cool no issues there.
I’m also not sure the need for downvotes for asking a question in previous comment. I still think it’s a valid question. Thanks for your answer.
The hydrogen needed to feed the haber-bosch process of fixing nitrogen from the atmosphere need not come from fossil sources, it's just that natural gas is very cheap and steam reforming methane is the most economical solution right now.
There are projects to synthesize the hydrogen by electrolysis of water using renewable energy. Wind and solar can have periods of production excess that the grid can't handle, and diverting that to ammonia synthesis can displace fossil fuel.
If synthetic fertilizers are bad for other reasons, legumes can fix their own nitrogen, no synthetic ammonia needed. Proper crop rotation and composting legume crop residues can meet the nitrogen needs of "veganic" farms.
The reason you're seeing downvotes is because vegans are voting en masse in the 'sort by controversial' mode. Who would have thought that a question about ethical lifestyle choices would attract vegans, right?
We frequently see "questions" that are not asked in earnest in order to point out some "gotcha!" that discredits veganism. "But don't u need animals to fertilize ur salad tho? checkmate vegans!!!" is somewhat common, and people are misinterpreting your honest question as dishonest baiting. Sorry 'bout that. :/
I grew up on a farm, and I can answer any more questions you might have.
Thanks again for taking the time to answer and put some thought into it. Much appreciated.
Keep Muslims Out.
There's no other choice.
Have less children. Don’t have pets. Eat less. Fix broken stuff.
There is not a lot wrong with just adopting a pet. And add with that adoption for children (adopt more kids) and eat less should be: distribute food evenly
The carbon footprint for feeding a dog is huge.
I am not talking about dogs besides I adopt homeless, desperate animals and feed them with leftovers or with food that if of the highest quality. And I understand people are upset by things like footprints but personally I don't care about a world where we are not allowed to take care of desperate animals
They only became desperate because of people’s selfish need to take animals away from their family’s and nature.
Let’s have been bred for aesthetics that create real harmful health defects and suffering for them.
No animals natural habitat is the human home.
They should have the right to roam free and choose a mate and have a family.
I understand it’s a hard emotional thing but I’m just being honest.
We don’t need pets we want them, they don’t need us, and unfortunately they can’t speak for themselves.
If you were to take a human from its parent at birth and raise it away from that family it would be grateful and reliant as it would not know any better.
Stop paying taxes. It goes to bombing kids in foreign countries.
As much as I don't want foreign kids being bombed, I can't provide for my own children if I am in jail.
Agreed. That's why I am a tiny bit of a hypocrite, since I pay taxes so that my daughter knows her father.
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le random reddit comment xDDD
Give all of your money to black women and invite migrants to live in your home. Don't forget to ask everyone what their pronoun is before greeting them.
We all make dozens of ethical choices everyday. To Lie or not lie, to kill or not kill, to take care of your children or not., to do your work (job) properly or half baked, to keep your promises and commitments or just blow them off... What exactly is this question seeking?
For you to fucking say what you think are the better decisions out of all of these. It's in the question, you daft idiot.
Wow! I think the most ethical decision I could make right now would be to ignore vitriolic jerks, idiots and morons but then again I am not that ethical.
attempts to completely dissect question, and as a result, is condescending and demeaning to the person who asked it, all the while maintaining an air of passive aggression
gets mad and throws insults like "dick," and "moron" at the person who calls them out on it .
Don't take what I'm saying as anything personal, you're just the twentieth person who was fucking begging to be on r/iamverysmart by being a dick and not answering the question but rather unnecessarily, as I said, attempting to dissect it. I happened to be in a bad mood at the time and I was sick of seeing this unoriginal comment made over and over again so I decided to say something to quench my hatred for comments like yours.
Edit: got rid of about four ad hominems that I really want to say but I won't because the type of person who made that comment is likely to get his panties in a twist over me keeping them in.
lol an account called animal liberate asking... oh I wonder what agenda it's pushing?
The agenda is imposing less unnecessary suffering onto sentient beings.
Eat delicious, savory meats while you can! And cheeses! Soon they will both be banned by our vegan, virtue signalling, "progressive", totalitarian, nanny state!
Yay!! Let’s hope so :)
Really? First comment is about using less plastic when that is entirely the fault of our capitalistic system. Everything in every single store is made from plastic. Plastic bags are like the one multi-use plastic item that exists and then we ban them. How about we start caring about the human beings who live on the street and less about the aesthetics of our world! HUMAN BEINGS are living in trash for fuck’s sake, and we’re worried about using less plastic.
So you suggest that instead of doing something to help the planet, we should do nothing? What a great suggestion to help make the world a better place!
yeah, that's exactly what I was saying, idiot!
General strike for the abolition of Capitalism
Stop putting trash in the sink when the trash is just 3 steps away, wtf dude, it disgustes me and it isn't that hard
Also, stop making a system for everything, alarm clocks, thinking "if he says x I'll say x" and so on, people use it very often and don't notice. I always think its sometimes more effective to not use a system, a system could make results predictable and could lead to success but not using a system can lead to being mor effective and healthy but success isn't as predictable. I use systems myself but I just don't bother avoiding them, I only avoid them a few times
Asking a person's preferred pronoun the second you meet them. Or at the very least, consistently using "they/them" until told otherwise.
buying some bitcoin
Not buying dairy and milk. There isn’t a humane way to do it. Despite what the farms and the slaughter houses want you to think. Everyone loves dogs, some people love cats (personally I hate the smug fucks) and all animals deserve that love from us.
Quit looking at porn: Whether your morally against porn or not you can't argue the fact that there's nothing good about it. It's addictive, it's misleading, and it's destructive. It teaches you to build relationships on lust and pick the people your around based on who has the bigger breasts or the sexiest butt.
C'mon guys, forget that crap. It's taken me 17 years to figure out that it doesn't matter how attractive I am, and worth isn't based on how many people like you. And 5 of those years I've spent in an empty room feeding empty emotions wasted on empty images of naked girls that I've never even met.
And the most disgusting part about all of that? People think that trash is good for you, that having sex should be on the top of your To-Do list, and that not being in control of your own body's sexual urges is ok.
Do you think your going to make a difference in this world if you spend most of your life masturbating in a bathroom?
Yeah I'm going to get a lot of hate from people for saying this, but I don't care. Pornography robs us of the sacred and intimate relationship between husband and wife.
It's a fact that couples that are together based on lust rarely stay together.
It's a fact that having sex before your at least out of highschool screws up the already chaotic balance of hormones needed to keep you healthy in both mind and body.
And it's a fact that watching someone else demoralize themselves in front of a camera just for money or stardom is anything more then a selfish and base act of lust.
I'm done keeping my mouth shut, if you disagree then deal with it. I've got as much right to speak my mind as you do.
(Edit: Less words)
What do you even jerk off to then?
It's part of being addicted to porn mate. Believe me it's not something I like to admit.
Well everything inside, I disagree with. But you do you my man. Although if you're ever going to use this rant again I'm going to give you a tip:
MLK committed like, serial adultery
I try not to copy paste stuff I say, also I wasn't aware of that, ill have to do some research on that, thanks. (Sorry for abused commas).
Lol, fuck that.
Buying cryptocurrency
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So us poor Americans shouldn't commit suicide for the good of the Planet? WTF
Stop recycling, all it does is create larger profit margins for corporations by saving them money from sorting recyclables from the trash.
Not contributing to suffering and killing of animals for taste pleasure.
Go vegan.
Becoming vegetarian - and i say this as someone who unfortunately hasnt made the full transition to being meat free yet :/
Don’t kill people. If for some reason you feel suicide is the only option, do at least one good thing and go off into the woods to do it. Nobody needs to die with you just because you think your life stinks.
Kill your crabs before you boil them. My entire life I always thought "meh, they're just crabs they don't even understand pain." Until I read about a scientific study on crabs and their responsiveness to the environment.
It's super easy and only takes 20-30 minutes. You just wrap them up in a cloth and stick them in the freezer for 20 minutes. It sort of acts like an anesthetic. Then you take a screw driver and quickly stab them in two spots; the hole under their tail flap and in their face. Then you're free to boil them as soon as possible.
If you don't have a screw driver, smashing the area of their tail flap on the corner of a table is really effective. I haven't tried that method yet but saw a YouTube video of it, the crab instantly goes limp. Then you just toss it in the pot.
We should stop supporting agriculture business. It is destroying our planet.
That's a terribly broad statement. The world simply wouldn't function without agriculture. Factory farming, sure, but it's just about impossible to stop supporting the entire agriculture business.
I basically meant stop the mass production of animals and especially cows.. idk how thats called.
Life's not just about you. There are 3 billion people in the world living off less than US$2.50 a day, so stop worrying about your goddamn Netflix payment.
whether we should be investing in public schools, infastruture and medical insurance or invest in the military so they could buy another f35
Vote Republican
Strive to keep ourselves in normal weight limits (just like animals, eat only as much you need to keep going)
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You're*
.... what?
making sure we drive as close to people riding bikes on the road as possible. its everyone's duty to let these assholes know they have no right to be on the road. a good horn honk and bird flip is usually in order. if we all pitch in, we can make sure that people are absolutely horrified of riding bicycles on a road made for cars.
Opinions should be based on metit
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It is possible that he meant the opinions' merit and not the holder thereof. It's also possible that that's not a misspelling, and ms. cornerdweler thinks that her tits trump my brains. While that's probably true, we all like to pretend in polite company that we're not looking.
No masturbation; no birth control; no promiscuity.
Could you explain your reasoning behind this?
It's difficult to explain an entire sexual ethic in a reddit post, but I can give a brief idea: sexuality is a potent gift ordered to the creation of children and the mutual pleasure of two adults who are prepared to accept the consequences of sex (i.e. children).
Masturbation or birth control is to sex what bulimia is to eating; it thwarts the end of the act in a very destructive way and actually changes the nature of the act. Strictly speaking, sex with birth control is not "sex" at all but something else entirely.
There are many resources on this topic; this was accepted knowledge reflected in law until about 80 years ago.
sexuality is a potent gift ordered to the creation of children and the mutual pleasure of two adults who are prepared to accept the consequences of sex (i.e. children).
A gift from what? Evolution? Our DNA molecule?
Just because sex's original purpose is reproduction doesn't mean we have to do it just for reproduction.
Sounds like an appeal to nature fallacy.
If you are uncomfortable with another person's belief in God then you could think of it as a Responsibility instead of a Gift.
Appeal to Nature and Natural Law are two very different things.
So you believe that sexual pleasure is a gift from God? Why do you believe that's the case?
Yes, I do, but I don't have the time to go into detail. If you are interested in looking into this, here is a good place to start reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology_of_the_Body
Is catholicism a necessary premise to this position?
If that's the case, if you came to the realisation that your belief in catholicism wasn't justified, would that change your mind on this topic?
No, as evidenced by Jews, Muslims, and ancient Romans all sharing these parts of the sexual ethic discussed so far.
No, as the argument is supported by Aristotelian ethics and natural law independent of any divine revelation.
What method should we use to determine what natural laws are?
I think Aristotle & Thomas Aquinas. That's what we have been using for the last 2400 years, anyhow.
That's what we have been using for the last 2400 years, anyhow.
Doesn't make them more correct though.
how is that remotely an argument of ethics?
It has always been that way. Societies have often disagreed on sexual ethics, but they have always seen sex as an ethical issue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_ethics
You are positioning these 3 things as inherently ethical life choices. I am asking why YOU feel this is in any way an ethical action.
You don't need wiki links to respond to that.
Okay, I'll answer.
Masturbation: Personally, I feel that my sexuality is reserved for my wife and masturbating is a selfish abuse of that. I save that desire for her, and masturbating would water it down and have a bad effect on our shared sexual expression.
Birth Control: I feel that using birth control would simply be a way for me to use her body for my pleasure without the natural consequences, which are beautiful in a way that our modern selfish society does not understand. It would corrupt the act and make it masturbatory in nature. Yes, I realize this leads to a lot of children. I have seven.
Promiscuity: I believe this is a selfish choice that hurts not only a current partner, but our potential future life partner.
Masturbation: Great, that's how you govern your life. Go for it. If I masturbate, I am not breaching any ethical standard. It feels good, it harms no one, to me, that is the definition of ethical. It is as ethical as rubbing my shoulder after a long day.
Birth control: Pleasure is not unethical. Pleasure at the expense of someone else, yes, but pleasure....is why we're alive. What's the point if not find happiness.
Promiscuity: Your argument presumes someone HAS a current partner. Promiscuity (again, with care for the well being and health of everyone) is learning. We understand ourselves better by increasing our life experiences, sex included.
You have lost sight of the thread: What ... choices ... should we be making.
I never said pleasure is unethical. Your definition of ethical is "if it harms no one else" which is facile.
should we be making
exactly...I don't in any way see it as something we "should" be doing. It may be something you choose to do, but I do not agree that doing so is ethical, and by extension NOT doing so is unethical.
Tbh who gives a shit if you’re promiscuous as long as you’re not making people or getting pregnant unwantedly or spreading STDs? Be a slut, just do it safely. Not hurting anyone.
You have a terrible misunderstanding of the potency and beauty of the sexual act.
If its potent and beautiful then why should we be suppressing it?
I believe that it should be enjoyed in context and moderation, just like food or drink. This does not include using synthetic hormones to suppress the natural effects of it.
Don't buy in bulk. A visit to Costco or Walmart actually increases your expenses because they make available a ton of things you at low prices, so you end up overconsuming. You really don't have to consume so many eggs and so much milk or biscuits. Go to your local farmer's market ... you'll eat fresh and healthy and smaller portions.
It would be nice if down voters explained why they disagree.
In my experience, the sheer availability of all these temptations enormously increases the odds that I'd buy stuff that I don't need at the moment. I find that when I don't have access to these temptations, many "needs" just go away by themselves.
The way I tie this to ethical choices is that I consume products from people who make ethical choices (good treatment of animals, absence of pesticides that mess up our rivers and land), and I avoid consuming from Big Food (like General Mills)
Have at least 2 kids
To those that eat a normal amount of eggs, free range eggs.
I can’t because I eat about 50 eggs per week and my egg budget would need to be about $400.
Don't use the self checkout line. It's really no faster and it's a passive-aggressive way to fuck over corporations that refuse to pay their workers a living wage and threaten to replace them with "robots" rather than doing so.
Remember: if you're not stupidly wealthy, you're one of the poor.
try to eat as much vegan and vegetarian as you can. much more ethical than many things and easy on the wallet
No it's not. That's plant murder, and it's horrible!! It's been proven that plants feel, they respond to music and talking. You are a mass murderer!!! You should just be truly humane and stop eating all together. Gah.
Stop watching porn. The industry is rotten to the core, it affects your sexual performance, and yes, it does ultimately change the way you view affection and love.
Don't use the self checkout, it encourages automation of retail jobs and drives up unemployment.
If you’re not willing to go entirely vegetarian or vegan, at least be willing to cutdown on your consumption of animal products, especially meat and fish. It’s not sustainable for the planet and it’s so terrible that people eat meat for every meal of every single day without caring about the repercussions. Please try to source your meat/eggs locally whenever possible instead of supporting the meat industry.
Go vegan
Choose to make a child with a woman you don't really love. Becsause you kbow what love feels like but you cant get that from another dude or a woman or something you know you do love ...so you should choose to pretend in the hopes it eventually will work and you will be happy for eternity
Because God.
Eat plant based! Animal agriculture be murdering the planet.
Read r/philosophy to improve your ethical views
It's a board comprised of awfully strict viewpoints. Even if both sides of a debate on that board cite their sources and formulate their arguments professionally, the mods will still block both users if they find something that contrasts their beliefs. Because of their constant blocking of the free exchange of ideas on a literal philosophy board, they (the mods and hence the sub) are extremely unethical.
Stop using Amazon. Don't buy from them. Don't watch their shows. Hell, don't even go on their site to price check. Amazon embodies pretty much everything wrong with massive corporations. They are aggressively monopolistic/anticompetitive, they are notoriously abusive to their workers (and I mean ALL their workers, not just the almost-slaves in their warehouses), they are a huge driving force for wealth inequality and gentrification (this one is mostly a problem in Seattle, but they're getting ready to build HQ2 once they find a plump and vulnerable host) and that's just the beginning. You could fill an encyclopedia with Amazon's offences. The point is - STOP SUPPORTING THEM.
Maybe the better argument would be to stop working there.
That certainly factors in - people should absolutely stop working there. If you're trying to call me a hypocrite, it's worth noting that I don't work there and never have. I did live in Seattle for 28 years though, and one of the reasons I no longer do is because I can no longer afford the rent.
Oh, no. I agree with what you're saying and only said what I did in jest.
There is no such thing as ethics fuck ethics
Eat less meat.
Start by cutting out red meat. Go meatless more days of the week. Or take it further and go vegetarian or vegan. It's not difficult, and the impacts to the environment are huge. It's the easiest thing you can do to reduce your personal carbon footprint.
Aside from the environment, have some empathy for animals, they're living creatures. They feel pain, and probably something like emotion. Search Youtube for cows cuddling with their humans and then try to eat a burger.
Stop eating beef. Conscious suffering aside, it’s incredibly wasteful and the methane livestock produce is seriously contributing to climate change.
I know it’s not as easy or feel good as the top comments on here, but it will actually make a difference.
Stop eating meat dairy eggs
Go vegan. Killing an animal for our own pleasure is unethical
Stop buying guns, meat, and plastics.
I own a gun and during the spring/summer season I drastically reduce my purchases of meats as I can hunt for the deer/ rabbit that are over populated in my area I like to think that also helps to reduce the plastic packaging from the grocery store 2/3 not so bad.
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Sebastian Junger (the guy who wrote A Perfect Storm) had a great bit on littering in his book Tribe. He says littering is the epitome of the idea that you aren't a part of your community because it's the distillation of your own idea that no one and nothing else matters more than the tiniest inconvenience you might have.
Funny, Thats my view on people who make illegal/dangerous maneuvers in traffic when they've missed (or are about to miss) a turn...
It's probably the same kinds of people. Bonus points if they are tossing fast food wrappers and cigarette butts out their window while they're at it.
Welcome to forest fires, population: you, you dumb selfish fuck
Meanwhile, my perfectly-constructed campfire required multiple starter logs, reams of junk mail paper and almost constant attention to keep it going for just a couple of hours.
Nature can be quite cruel...
Edit - yup, the wood was wet. I got dry wood the next day and all was burned. Boy Scouts FTW!
It doesn't sound like a perfectly constructed campfire.
The Rangers brought new wood the next day and apologized for the wet wood the previous night.
Yea, so it isnt perfectly constructed if you are using wet wood. Its terribly constructed.
:[
Right...
I understood what you were going for. Fuckin reddit sometimes
Perfectly constructed given the limitations.
It can be perfectly constructed, just from shit materials.
I'm sure there are plenty of perfect designs out there that are meant for the wrong materials
Nah. When you spend time in the woods by yourself or in a small group you generally have to use whatever fuel is there since you shouldn't be packing in wood, especially with the ash borer and the like being around.
That sounds like wet wood, or a really badly built fire.
Well, Im glad they show us how to start fires in boy scouts, who's laughing now!!
Certainly not the people who aren’t allowed to be in the Boy Scouts!
And the bullies! I got bullied for being a boy scouts :(
Really? I got bullied at boyscouts. Does that count?
Some men just want to watch the world burn. ^/s
I use to smoke so I get it, butt(hehe) people need to find ashtrays or buy one for their own vehicle because it's such a disgusting sight and is no different from trash.
Yeah cars don't come equipped with ash trays quite like they used to, but there's plenty of stuff you could use if you are a smoker, with very little inconvenience or financial cost to you.
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An altoids tin, or other small pocket sized tin.
Just put them in your beer can dummy!
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You got two hands dontcha?
Cup or bottle in a cup holder
Pretty much what everyone else in the thread has already recommended (but it looks like the thread is collapsed due to downvotes). Aftermarket Ashtray (a lot are made to fit in a cup holder), water bottle with a bit of water, a metal cup/container.
Yeah I used to use a cup a bought from the dollar store haha
I do cleanup at a restaurant. If I had a nickle for every time I'm sweeping outside, and you can clearly see this, but people still throw their shit out the window, I'd be rich man. Bonus points if they do it just a few feet from a trash can. There is a special place in hell for these people.
I’m so sorry that people do this. You should stuff the trash right back into their window.
So, Philadelphia.
Sorry, just moved here a year ago and the litter and driving are the worst.
Are they aware that from an outsiders perspective it seems like they embrace it like it's a point of pride.
My step dad talks shit about the fact that my car has trash in it. That's because I don't just chuck it out the window when I'm done you old fuck.
I lay on the horn every time people toss butts, fucking idiots
laying out the real issues of western civilization.
Nah I don't think so. I hate littering and do my part to clean up around me. But I'm generally that person you see doing stupid stuff while driving like going too fast or stopping on a dime. This is generally because driving affords a lot less time to think about my actions as opposed to something like littering where I really have to think about what I'm going to do. Not to say driving recklessly is ok, I just wanted to chime in about the difference between the two.
You're hurling two tons of steel down the road toward other people at 70 mph. Please work on this.
Of course! I always work to be a better and safer driver. My point was more along the line of how driving can be hectic and since it's real-time, life will throw situations at you that are hard to react to and will result in bad decisions being made. What I make sure to do is not place myself in situations where I have to react quickly because I will often choose the wrong choice accidentally.
this i always say this
How does driving afford less time to think about your actions if you admitted that you do stupid shit during driving? If you're aware of your actions and do nothing to change them you're still an asshole (a bit less than the oblivious).
Well it may not be the case for you or other people maybe, but driving often requires split second decisions which is what I was reffering too. So even when you don't plan on making bad driving decisions, if you don't have the best reaction time sometimes bad decisions are made. The best thing you can do I suppose is try to make sure you aren't putting yourself in the position where you have to make snap decisions.
It's the new turn signal.
or text or talk on phones while driving
I actually saw someone making a shitty turn on a busy road while simultaneously throwing a water bottle out of their car last week.
It's always cigarette butts, isn't it?
And it lands at the feet of a native American who is really Italian and he cries.
I belong to the catagory of drivers who have no / little regard for others feelings (or laws) on the road. However, as a two season SCA and AmeriCorps member I absolutely detest people who litter. Most especially people who litter in National Parks and Forests (and beaches of course).
I become a special level of enraged when I find a monster can or doritos bag out in the middle of nature. (I'm there to escape civilization! Not to have it follow me!)
What do you suggest people do with lit cigarette ends whilst they’re driving?
Use an ash tray if equipped or carry a metal cup filled halfway with water
ash tray .. why exactly do you think its ok to throw them out the window ? .. do you have any idea what the filters do to our world?
Not trying to take the piss but that ashtray just gets cleaned out into the garbage which then gets cleaned out to the landfill, so the filters still hit the earth whether directly out of the hand or out of the trash truck.
ya but in the dump they don't get into the water supply or affect any wildlife as theirs not many fish in the dump ..
Oh for real not saying I disagree but you saying "think of the planet" is a little overblown.
I think you're missing the big picture.
I'd hate to see your living space if you think that garbage in one place is equal to garbage in any other. Do you let your trash pile up on the floor because the trashcan is inside your apartment "so it still hits the apartment whether it's directly out of the hand or within the garbage bag"?
Not the same thing and you know it lol but for the record my entire apartment is clean minus my bedroom but that's my room so I can do what want with it. It's not the same thing because it's not my earth to do whatever I please with I'm not arguing because I'm for litter or I'm for throwing shit on the ground guy.
Saying that "think of the planet is a little overblown" is just fucking naive, in doing so, you are advocating for throwing shit on the ground. I get the impression you're young, and have never visited anywhere with a high population density where millions of people with similar attitudes to those you convey have decimated the natural landscape around them.
I'm not surprised that someone who espouses these opinions chooses to live in filth, but don't impose it on the rest of us.
Guy that's like me saying your filthy go away when I know nothing about you.
I don't live in filth you the fact that you assert such ridiculous claims over a comment on the internet means you are no longer worth my time. Litter or don't I don't care man you do or don't do you, live or die, travel or don't me caring or not caring won't change your mind and I'm not trying to impose anything on anyone never was so take your ridiculous claims out the door with you my friend and have a good day.
LOL, you tried to say that littering has no environmental consequences, then said you don't even bother to keep your bedroom clean.
Again another ridiculous claim do you even read bro? Go ahead quote me saying littering has no environmental consequences I'll wait.
I also consider clothes on my closet floor and a half Gatorade bottle on my end table dirty in my room so if that's "filth" to you then my God.
Speedy response mgee here and now that I ask for a quote he's lost
I'm done arguing with a kid who tries to justify tossing cigarette butts because they all end up in the earth, or whatever it was you said.
Night.
"or whatever it was you said" lol fuck outa here. Have a good Easter weekend man seems like you need it.
Modern landfills are constructed in a way that they should never leech into groundwater and once decommissioned, are completely encapsulated so they don't contaminate anything around them.
Tossing a filter out your window means it will most likely wash into the storm sewer, which flows directly into lakes and rivers, contaminating them.
Used plastic bottle w/ a little bit of water (or any fluid in it). Remember to keep track of the lid.
Really? Any fluid? So, lighter fluid, petrol, oil, ...? Maybe just stick with water. Or just not smoke in the car, like a civilized person.
Cigarettes don't burn hot enough to ignite liquid gasoline so you'd probably be fine with petrol. You'd also be fine with 99.99% of liquids people tend to carry in their car in a bottle accessible by the driver while driving.
Yeesh. I wasn't very clear so what I meant was, any plastic bottle previously holding any liquid a human would normally drink. So if you didn't want to refill a soda bottle you're drinking in the car with water from inside the house for example, you could just leave the last 3 gulps of soda and bam, that's an ashtray.
I don't smoke, but of the smokers I've known, the car is one of the most common/biggest trigger for wanting a cigarette. So it's good to point out options like this.
It’s unacceptable to throw them out the window. If you choose to smoke you’re responsible for figuring out how to dispose of your trash. Littering is not the answer.
Seriously!! Stop trying to kill me because you didn’t realize you were in a turn only lane and need to go straight. Follow the road and get yourself turned around.
I saw a cab driver throw an entire bag of fast food garbage out his window while speeding/cutting people off. The drink cup was soon to follow.
I actually called the cab company to report the piece of shit but they couldn't have cared less. Ruined my whole weekend.
I'd call the police, littering aside there is a person who's job is to drive and they are driving in a manner that endangers others. Every call is a dot on a map and a tally, enough dots = more cops, enough tallies = action. Not always of course but it's the easiest way to turn an anecdote into a fact.
I am seething reading these comments right now.
I live next to an empty lot on the corner, across the street from a shitty apartment complex. People throw their garbage in that empty lot ALL OF THE TIME. It's infuriating and I can never seem to catch them in the act.
Put up a sign stating there’s a $1000 fine for illegal dumping. Or look up how much the fine actually is in your area? Bonus points if you can make the sign look somewhat official. Might work as a deterrent, worth a shot right?
You mean I cant turn around on the highway to go back to the exit?
No that's why you drive in reverse
But I like driving with my headlights in your eye as we huddle towards each other at 180mph, just before I swerve tothe offramp. It's no fun if I can't see the fear in your eyes or even go 90mph.
^ the reason I don't drive n take the Caltrain every day
But you're missing the fear!!!!
I don't get this. It's not hard to go a bit further, U-turn safely and get to where you need to be.
The amount of times I've been cut off or nearly hit someone because the turn at the very last second with no signal is staggering lol.
And then you get the wave of unapologetic-apology
Bad drivers serve one function that is community-minded: they keep me employed (I’m a claims adjuster). But seriously people - slow down, get off your phone, don’t drive drunk and use your signals! I would be pleased if I never had to look at photos of another dead body.
When that happens to me I just accept my fate and take the next exit. Some people will dive across 4 lanes of traffic almost causing an accident to make it over to their exit in time.
"Good luck everybody else!"
my perspective is that if its an egregiously dangerous move, then its an assault on me and my family. I have no patience for those that speed on residential streets, or parking lots.
From my perspective the jedi are evil
Well, then you ARE lost.
They could also be an inexperienced driver. My first time with a learner's permit I had to put the brakes on really hard for a turn because my dad told me to turn while we were about 15 feet away from it... We got rear ended
Specifically people bypassing traffic to make a turn by driving in the bike lane. Everyone else with their blinker on has to wait? But you get to go? Who are you?
I agree. I would rather turn around at the next exit or road than put anyone’s life in danger.
Same. We all have somewhere we need to be and no one's place is more important than the next guys.
Illegal is okay, but dangerous. Nope
Yeah, was sitting on a side street waiting at a light. Finally it turns green for me, just as two people both going in opposite directions on the main street run the CLEARLY red light at probably 10 mph faster than the speed limit. If I had jumped the gun just a little, that would have been one crazy accident.
The worst part is had they stopped at their red light, it would only have been a short wait...since the light only gives time for 2-3 cars to pull out of the side street before it lets the main street traffic go again.
I add adults that smudge their fingerprints onto glass in public places. Like glass doors when there's a handle, or the glass cases like at Subway.
I don't think those are as bad, but I imagine it's the same kind of thoughtlessness.
In my experience, people that do those manuevers usually suffer from a lack of impulse control. Usually young people or people with conditions that affect their impulse control. I have ADHD and when I was younger I had to learn not to follow those impulses, though they would still occur. I won't lie and say Ive never done anything reckless (rarely), but I've noticed after starting treatment (and growing older--once you hit 25 your ability to assess risk is fully developed) those impulses are very rare and very easy to ignore. Along with all the other non-driving impulses.
So...licensing starting at age 25? Lol
Insurance rates are already super high for people under 25 so there is incentive to not drive and to drive extra safely. No need to punish people for being human, we all got places to go. The good news is that it's only a short period of time while people grow and they are usually taught early on how to control impulses while they are still learning.
Oh good lord... yes.
Just traffic in general is proof of selfishness in the world
You probably should avoid Orlando
I live in southern california...call it a tie?
Sounds fair
literally just got in a crash with a woman in a minivan last week because she was doing just that.
Sorry, that might’ve been me in my teens. It’s not that I was being selfish, it’s that I’m a stupid idiot and should never have been allowed to pilot a hulking metal death machine.
I now drive like a grandma.
Lol are you last two from Maryland?
Especially on the highway. There's another exit 2 miles away, calm down.
This is infuriating. If I miss a turn or wait too long - I accept my fate and go around the block like a normal person.
Granted sometimes those people aren’t paying much attention and just fucked up. Yesterday I made a u-turn and to be honest I was just kind of in my own world which happens pretty often when I’m driving and I forced the guy behind me to stop short because I forgot to signal. There was no malice or anything on my part just in that moment I was oblivious. Things like cutting people off is when you get into people who don’t give a shit about other people’s time and just need to get to there destination
Littering is still worse.
At least with what you're suggesting it can be a significant difference. Irresponsible, sure, but missing an exit can be the difference of staying in a car and burning gas for another half hour.
I disagree on this, it's less conscious than littering as they could be flustered/worried/thinking they're doing the right thing
Thats extremely powerful. Ill remeber this. When you dont feel apart of the whole, you dont care what happens
I screen shot it at least.
I stored it in my memory bank for at least the next hour
I saved it on Reddit for me to rediscover it and from now when I go through all the shit I saved
I forgot it wait what is happening where am i
Or bookmark it
wherever the bookmarks go
Junger's interview with Joe Rogan talks about the same idea in greater depth.
Or when you do feel apart from the whole...
I'm appalled by littering. I've been picking up litter ever since I helped to start an annual clean-up of the lake near my hometown through my boy scout troop. Last fall I came home from school to see that someone had littered a pregnancy test box.
All I could think was "if you're littering, you probably should not be having kids. For the benefit of all involved" as I picked it up, grabbed a couple of other pieces out of the bushes, and walked them to the recycling.
I live in Vermont, and I love our extraordinarily-high fine for littering. It's a really clean state.
Literally reading Tribe right now. He was awesome on Joe Rogan's podcast as well. Very interesting dude!
Yep, that's why I read it. He's a fantastic guest every time he's on JRE.
Most recently on JRE Episode 1034, for those wondering.
I've been tempted to buy it and give it a read, but I already have a couple books I need to finish. Might add that one to the list.
It's a fast read, less than 200 pages, and definitely worth it.
You can honestly knock it out in a single day. It's a quick read with no filler or fluff!
That book was brilliant. I like to reference his example of how when a group is allowed to infringe on it without the ones doing the infringing suffering any repercussions, it is an open invitation to further abuse. I see that happening today in many aspects.
that was a fantastic book.
Isn't that like the social contract? We do something with the expectation that everyone else does it, and collectively we're better off?
I'll have to get my girlfriend to read that book. Maybe then she'll stop leaving garbage around the house for me to throw out.
Get the audiobook. It's one of the rare ones where the author is the one reading it, and it's a really quick listen.
Oh cool! I've been looking for ways to spend my Audible credits.
I'll check that out next. It sounds like a good book.
I've been saying this for years.
If you told me you killed someone, I would need the story before I judged you. I want to know the circumstances. Even if a jury found you guilty of murder, I'd want to make my own judgement based on your story.
If I see you litter, there's no nuance. I don't need you on this planet and I would prefer you gone via whatever means bring us to that end.
Not just parks and beaches, everywhere needs to be looked after .
I always pick up garbage I walk by. It’s fucking gross cause “who had their lips all over that” or “what the fuck was in that”, but if not me then who?
In school I’d always see people kicking bottles on the floor when the bin is two steps away. Our janitor was like 60 years old, what kind’ve of an asshole makes a nice elderly man pick up after them? People just don’t really think about it, probably like most things. Hell I doubt many even talked to the guy or gave him a second notice.
I'm writing my senior thesis on this book. Fantastic read!
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Visit China or parts of SE Asia. America will look damn clean in contrast.
I don't feel I'm a part of my community, but I have a profound hatred of littering. I guess I do feel strongly connected to the land itself.
In some communities littering is the norm... so the reverse would be true.
Oh my gosh, yes. I used to live in a house on "Greek row" in college and a few bad apples would throw bottles in the street of the neighborhood and it made me furious! They live here, too!!!
Great book. I'm listening to it at the moment
The worst part is that it usually takes less than a minute to not be an asshole but far too many people still don't care.
I think it's slightly more than that. I think it's a passive-aggressive "fuck you" to the rest of us.
That makes so much sense! In junior high I would purposely throw my trash all over campus. Thankfully I’m no longer that angsty!
It's like he knows me and my opinion of the peasants.
So I don’t agree with littering and don’t litter but I’m interested to know what you say to the following argument:
That kind of implies that putting rubbish in a bin as opposed to on the ground makes any kind of difference to the impact on the world. At least by littering you create a job.
I broke up with a guy over littering once. Well, and some other things, but that was a big part of it.
Good on you! I broke up with a girl because she didn't believe in dinosaurs once.
I mean, he would be driving and littering out the window, I would tell him that is horrible and he really shouldn't be doing that, and then he'd just keep doing it... Bye, boy, bye! Wow, didn't believe in dinosaurs? Yes, that's a deal breaker too.
Well said!
I mean, I litter in my own room? I'm not sure that's true.
I enjoy littering because people get so furious about it. Those people matter a great deal to me.
That's so cute. Maybe one day you'll love yourself instead
I think your statement proves his point.
Nah, his point is that litterers consider themselves outsiders. I very much am part of a community of clucking busybodies, and like to contribute by giving them something to get into a self-righteous lather about.
So edgy. Now if you could just play nice so we can have nice things, that'd be great.
That pleasure you get from scolding me, showing me the right way, how could I rob you of it by putting receipts in bins?
You just assume that this gives me pleasure as part of a rationalization (or a "joke"). I'd rather live in a world where everyone behaves like they want others to behave.
Instead allow them to enjoy a clean environment. It's a much greater joy than scolding someone believe me.
Serious question: are you 13 or under? I want to lose faith in humanity, but if you're a child I've already lost faith in children, so yeah.
Whatever age he is, he's a loser.
Clucking busybodies?
I mean... are you suggesting that no one should care?
Think of this completely logically, if every single person littered, what do you think it would be like? Would you really not care how shitty everything looked?
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I get the same joy from posting :)
Does Mommy still clean up after you?
r/IAmVeryBadass is that way, you daft cunt. (☞ﾟヮﾟ)☞
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The way the person who said that would probably frame it is like this:
People of many races litter, but Black people are more likely to get arrested or ticketed for these nuisance crimes and due to their higher incidence of poverty also more likely to be unable to make bail, lose their jobs, and fall through the cracks of the system because of a ticket or arrest for a nuisance crime.
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They're generally less well-taken-care-of by the city to begin with. The ditches and vacant lots are issues that the city should deal with, but doesn't, and people get disheartened and just sort of stop caring about their neighborhood, causing it get even more run down and filled with litter, and the city to further avoid investment in cleaning up the area. It's cyclical and it's hard to give a shit about your community when the people in charge treat it like trash too.
Good explanation of the issue. It's often how it rolls. It's hard to think you not tossing something matters when your neighborhood already kind of looks like a dumpheap.
It's interesting to see this being mentioned. I cut grass in the summer and my crew dreads the days we have to cut in the lower income areas of town. We become trash pickers for the day instead of a lawn crew. Im not sure it can be blamed on African Americans alone, but wealth inequality certainly has something to do with the garbage.
There's also the broken windows theory. Anyone regardless of skin color or poverty status is more likely to treat their neighborhood like shit if it's already shit. Somehow I don't see litter, graffiti, or other sorts of ugly stuff around subsidized low income apartment complexes in Santa Monica. Those areas are just as neat and pretty as ones with millionaires' houses a few blocks away.
Broken Windows has largely been dismissed as short-sighted and ignoring the larger issues. Basically putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound while the bullet's still inside the person. The problem is that it primarily leads to targeting of low-level offenses while the big stuff gets ignored (i.e.: punishing spray painting while there's a large drug network in the city). Thacher pointed out that the theory suffers from a correlation ≠ causation problem.
Personally, I think if you're actually providing resources so the community can fix the window, that's one thing. But Broken Windows theory is primarily about policing and criminology, so while a good proposal in the 80s, the hypothesis has appeared to fail in practice.
I think that the part of it that doesn't do with policing still applies, simply as a description of the influence of environment on people's behavior. People are much more likely to litter and vandalize if the area is already trashed. If it's well maintained, people tend to preserve that status.
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Back in my neighborhood, that's pretty common as well. Was walking my dog one day and saw a bullet casing. Brought it home to show my dad. Never saw him turn white as a ghost before.
I went through a short barefoot running phase and my entire family was concerned I'd step on hypodermic needles.
You get it. I live in a black neighborhood.
Our parking lot hasn't had the lines redrawn since it was made in the 60s.
There are potholes six inches deep peppered throughout the complex.
They have a sign warning the residents that abandoned vehicles will be towed, but after nine months of the management doing nothing about an abandoned car parked outside of my apartment, it took tracking down and calling the actual owner of one of the buildings for the car to be taken away.
The stairs to the apartments are slowly being replaced because the city did some kind of surprise inspection and raised hell at the fact the wood was rotting away.
We have a single recycling bin that's sized for a single family home for the entire complex. Guess how badly it overflows?
The mailboxes used to have an awning so you wouldn't get soaked. Management is too cheap to replace it.
Management is supposed to come around and test the fire alarms every six months. They don't, they just sign off on the paperwork.
All y'all shitting on black people should move into a black neighborhood and pay attention.
And who's the owner? I bet it's a billionaire who owns a hundred other apartment complexes and has no care for anything but the bottom line. They're all "investments" he probably looked at photos of once on the day he bought them, and not since. To people like that, they're just things that make his pile of money get bigger. No connection to the neighborhood and not a shred of empathy for the tenants.
While it's true that a large majority of the "rich" are real estate moguls, slum lords, commercial realty developers, etc. Very few of them are billionaires.
To be fair, it's probably a millionaire, not a billionaire.
Maybe, but it was the billionaire class who really scored big after the financial crisis. A great deal of the nation's real estate was transferred far, far up the economic ladder when it all went on foreclosure sale for cheap, so I just went with billionaire.
Yea so what happens when said billionaire decides to maintain the property?
Gonna ahead the end result rhymes with "bent if vacation"
honestly I have no idea what you're trying to say
me neither
edit: oh, "gentrification" i think. not sure why the guy didn't just say it
Got me there. Fix it up like it should be, and then new tenants show up willing to pay more, and soon the people who'd been there for years and breathed a sigh of relief when it finally got cleaned up get priced out of their units.
Well, that's either that or non one would actually build these apartment buildings
I think we can find a happy medium somewhere between maintaining the property to the max and profits-at-any-cost slumlording.
Yeah! Screw people who make smart financial decisions! I bet you know that guy's whole life story and he's totally an asshole, right? Good detective work!
I know what kind of people our economy rewards the most lavishly, and it's not the people who go out of their way to do right by others.
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It ends up flinging all over. We did that were we live, our street is now covered in gravel and sand from other people topping it off.
That's not how you fix a pothole and will make things worse if anything. Not only that, but if I'm paying you to maintain my apartment complex you damn well better be maintaining it. I am fortunate to have the option of moving if I don't like my landlord, but many people don't.
Fill a pothole with gravel, let a week go by, and you're back to a pothole and gravel all over the parking lot.
Then begins my next step: turning the entire road into a gravel road. That will discourage people from tearing through because they don't want to mess up their cars.
It may or may not make the neighborhood more susceptible to shady folks even if it was okay before.
There are some upscale neighborhoods around here that never had their roads paved. They're very well maintained dirt roads, but they're dirt nonetheless, which I imagine works very well at discouraging people cutting through the neighborhood or coming in at all if they don't have business there.
Wouldn't loose gravel just get flung out as tires roll over it, possibly damaging the asphalt around it?
Part of it is access to transportation, and access to trash cans. From my building to the place where I used to work is about a mile and a quarter on foot, which is how I made the trip every day. In that stretch of a major arterial road in Atlanta, there is not one single public trash can. There is however, a McDonald's, Zaxby's, Taco Bell, Popeye's, Burger King, Cookout, Long John Silver's, and more.
So guess what people do when they are done eating at a bus stop, then have to get on a bus? Hint, they don't take the trash with them.
That's not a great answer, but you had walked a few miles, ridden a bus a few more miles, and sat in the hot Atlanta sun for 45 minutes waiting on a bus, would policing up your trash, or making the effort to find a trashcan be high on your priority list?
In Japan there aren't many garbage bins in public, but people still carry their carbage home or until they can find a bin. It isn't that hard, it's just bad manners to litter.
Yeah. Tokyo and Atlanta have a lot of similarities when it comes to public transit, workforce development, and public sanitation.
/s
Yeah, they walk greater distances in worse weather to work longer hours in Tokyo. But the sense of community still comes first for them, not second.
Do they also get paid $5.25/hr and have literally no city sanitation services other than irregular trash pickup provided to their community? Do people get paid a living wage in Tokyo? Do people clean the streets in Tokyo?
To compare the two and then blame people living in abject poverty for not doing more work than people in rich communities who live blocks away but are provided a slew of social and sanitation services is to be willfully blind to the situation.
Income has nothing to do with it. It costs literally nothing to carry your trash with you until you reach a bin which can be at home or work, not necessarily a public one. If people don’t litter and they pick up other people’s litter they find, then the streets will be clean without having to employ anyone to do it. (Other than maybe a weekly street sweeper to clean the gutters)
Your point was that poor people are too tired to care about maintaining the places where they live, but poor people in other countries manage just fine.
For the record, I was raised by an unemployed single mother in a deprived area. But I was still taught that it was inconceivable to leave my trash for someone else to deal with, even where they pay people to do it like a fast food place or similar.
“To be successful one must first present the image of success.”
Social Group Depression.
That's also because contractors know which neighborhoods and communities won't be militant about prosecuting illegal dumping because either their culture or the means.
I agree. I'm a big fan of the Steel Man method of developing rational arguments though, and it struck me that the people against the anti-littering ordinance were being unfairly represented.
I see it as a nuanced issue, the vast majority of which can be attributable to poverty, but on some level change cannot be externally imposed and needs to come from within the community. We do need to do a lot more to address poverty as the root cause.
The unintended side effects of many laws disproportionately affect poverty. Gas hikes, for example, unequally injure rural areas that rely more on their cars while gas makes up a larger portion of their income—this extends to cigarette and soda taxes, littering (as you pointed out), and more.
But, these are complicated issues with long term versus short term benefit windows. I think we have to be careful if we blanket ban all ideas because some part of them is painful.
And fewer public bins to dump trash in because they are underserved by the municipality.
You can always just bring a plastic bag with you to dump your trash in when your finished until you find one. This was a problem when I went to the UK (they like to hide their bins or not have many at all) and I got very good at double bagging my waste when I ate in the parks.
How willing would you be to do that if you lived in a community the city deliberately underserved while making you the villain re: how dirty your neighborhood was?
I'm not saying your solution is somehow wrong, but also convincing people to do more for their community than other communities have to would be pretty hard. Municipalities can solve this problem just by putting out more bins in underserved communities instead of relying on people's "personal responsibility."
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It is legally the job of the city to put trash bins where trash goes. It's not really a catch 22 when the party that's supposed to do the thing, doesn't. The way we solve this is the city fixes the problem like it's supposed to or they live with a filthy landfill. And "if people were more personally responsible" is the weirdest victim-blaming I've ever seen.
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I meant "victim blaming" in a broader, metaphorical sense. We started this conversation with black communities in mind, which are notoriously blamed for all their own troubles by a society that essentially put them where they are, and that's where my mind is at.
When people come up with excuses like "what was she wearing?" Or "did he look threatening?" Or, in this case, "why don't people just go out of their way to throw out trash in this place that has nowhere to throw it?" it all tends to be a smoke screen so we don't ask the real question, which is "why did he assault her?" Or "why did that cop shoot him?" Or "why is there nowhere to throw trash in this community that's filthy?"
I absolutely would carry my trash with me until I find a bin, in any neighborhood. I would expect any decent person passing through a place to keep their trash contained. I don't think people should litter. It's fine if people want to take the responsibility of keeping things clean and going out of their way to do it, but the city owes us a sufficient number of trash cans if it wants shit clean; the city is the chicken and the community is the egg. It's their job to break a cycle of litter.
Other people won’t care about a community the residents themselves don’t appear to care about.
Plenty of that dumping comes from outside those neighborhoods, too. Got a small company that has expensive waste to dispose of? Save money by rolling into the "bad" part of town late at night and dumping it on an empty lot or something.
My race and sociology professor used to always say if you call out injustice and people call you racist for it, you're probably on the right track.
So the eventual result of “broken windows” policing? Makes a twisted mind of sense.
Additionally they’re more likely to be arrested because of the color of their skin. :(
Can't unfairly enforce the crimes if they're not being committed.
Cool, so let's set up cameras that will automatically issue speeding tickets, on every highway, but only to white people.
Why only white people?
It's just an example showing the faults in the logic of "can't unfairly enforce the crimes if they're not being committed." Unequally enforced justice...isn't justice.
This literally makes no sense. All /u/Lurkolantern is saying is you can't punish someone for crimes they don't commit.
Uh, you super duper can. Look at the false conviction rate.
Right, so if we set up the speed cameras, plenty of white people would be speeding, so what's the issue? You can't punish someone for crimes they don't commit.
But why does it have to be for white people only when black people are also going to speed? When you create a law toughing down on littering, its not necessarily to try to oppress the group doing more of it, because it would also be enforced on every other group doing it. The result might be that one group gets targeted, but the crux is that they aren't the only group. And it was not created to target that group.
EDIT fixing autocorrects
This is an assumption, and if it were true in practice then I would agree with you. Statistically, however, every time I've seen a study (first google result on "study nuisance crimes race", there are plenty of others) pop up that looks into the issue, they find that it's not actually enforced on all groups with the same dilligence.
CANOS - Criminal Activity Nuisance Ordinances.
Only the people that made the law know why it was made, that's subjective, we can listen to their arguments (and there are good arguments for littering laws, I'm not denying that), but we can't know what they were thinking.
The end result is that it does target some groups way more than others, which I view as a rational argument against those laws. That doesn't mean I don't believe in ever having these sorts of laws, I just acknowledge the validity of that argument and take it into consideration when thinking about whether to support them or not, on an individual basis.
Implying what? Read it in context please.
“Unequally enforced justice...isn't justice.”
It 100% is still justice.
It literally is not.
Why do you think the personification of justice is pictured like this? What's she wearing on her face, and why?
Logic test for you: person A and person B both shoot up a different store in separate parts of town.
Should Person A be arrested only if:
a) Person B is also arrested, or
b) There is no criteria. He shot up a place and should be arrested.
Think hard. Try to use logic and not emotion.
Logic test for you:
If people of skin color A shoot people of skin color B and get suppressed and arrested by the government, but people of skin color B don't get arrested when they shoot people of skin color A, what do you call that? Think hard, try to use logic and not emotion.
I see you couldn’t answer my logic test.
I see you couldn't answer mine.
I asked you first
Uh huh, you sure did, but you're apparently unable to see how systemic unequal enforcement of the law can completely change the degree to which you can call law enforcement "justice". You also presented a blatant false dichotomy with your two available choices.
IF the law is applied equally, without consideration for demographic factors, then obviously the crimes of person B aren't at all relevant to whether or not arresting person A would be considered justice.
IF, however, people of type A and type B are engaged in ethnic strife and are routinely killing each other, then the government only arresting people of type A and selectively enforcing the law on them becomes collusion not only in that ethnic strife, but also possibly genocide.
Context fucking matters. Obviously littering isn't shooting, but you brought shooting into the equation.
Didn't, not couldn't.
But hey, I'll bite.
B. Doesn't matter who shoots/litters. We should aspire to enforce justice equally everywhere, lest it not be justice anymore but oppression.
Now what's your point? Does this prove something?
Like hell it is. No worthwhile definition of the term could possibly allow that.
Cool let's make all our decisions based on hyperbolic analogy!
So we shouldn't crack down on littering because some cops might be unfair by hanging out in low-income neighborhoods which are known to be high-crime areas?
No-one ever said we shouldn't enforce the law by cracking down on litterng, you saying that is a thinly-veiled strawman argument.
Do as you preach, my friend. If you say we shouldn't talk hyperbole then you better stop making blanket statements.
"Whites don't commit crime?" I hope you're sarcastic.
Otherwise shut the fuck up, you have no argument here.
You're putting a lot of words in my mouth, can you stop gaslighting for one god damn minute? I never said whites don't commit crimes, where did you even find that? There's plenty of poor white people in low income neighborhoods
Huh?
They're probably not saying that black people litter more. I'm guessing they mean that police officers in black areas will enforce the littering law more, either as a way to generate revenue with fines or as probable cause to stop people who look "suspicious."
I'd argue that they ARE saying black people litter more BUT that doesnt mean they are 'at fault' so to speak.
Littering is likely a result of 3 major factors: poverty, education, and social momentum or the 'broken window effect'. African americans are statistically more poor and more uneducated than their white counterparts and they live in communities that already have major problems with littering and other crime.
So here you are, constantly (at least at a low level) worried about being perceived as a criminal or a target for crime (theft, gang violence, etc.) and also have to concern yourself with money so you are not evicted, and then you grow up in dense communities where other people dont care about litter, and to top it off, you likely have not been made aware of what happens to the bottle you chuck into the storm drain and why it matters.
Even if the last part were solved, if you spent millions educating low income inner city folks about littering, the other factors make it REALLY hard to deal with the problem of littering.
Enforcing litter laws across the board WILL disproportionately affect low income -often ~~colored~~ of color (thank you for correcting me Nonide)- communities. This is not racist, this is what happens when social inequality is tied to race and trying to deal with it puts an unnecessary burden on policing an already disenfranchised group.
TLDR: people in power dont necessarily think black people are born-litterers and thats racist so we cant act, they recognize the futility and possible negative consequences of trying to solve a problem from the bottom up.
Do people seriously still call (groups of) people "colored" where you're from? I don't necessarily disagree on your points about how communities of color would be affected, but I was taken aback by your use of that word. In the US that usage harks back to the hyper aggressive racism of the Jim Crow era
...gulp I guess I am showing my upbringing here... I grew up in rich, rural, white, wisconsin so I honestly didnt think that term was negative. My bad.
It seems that I came off as jumping down your throat or trying to detract from your points, but that really was not my intention. I figured you either simply didn't know or were from a country where it is not considered offensive. Sorry if I seemed harsh, I was just surprised to see it, especially in the context of everything else you wrote.
no worries friend, you came off as correcting me and I appreciate it. I simply was defending my right to be an idiot (IE making excuses for myself)
In your response you mentioned communities of color. Isn't that the same thing?
It's not the same thing because "colored" is a label that has been externally placed on non-white communities and individuals by white people in order to alientate and oppress people of color. You can't really expect the word plastered on every marker of racial segregation to be an acceptable way to refer to the type of people who were subjected to it.
"Person of color" (and derivatives) is a term developed by people of color in order to assert their agency while also acknowledging that non-white people face issues of oppression and racism in white-dominant societies.
What's the difference between his "colored communities" and your "communities of color" comment? Why are you spewing nonsense to try to detract from the main talking point?
Context.
Using "colored", as in "colored people"; "Colored communities", etc. tends to remind people of the signs from the Jim Crow era, which used that exact terminology.
As such, using the phrase "of color" is often used to separate to separate ourselves - at least mentally - from the (more) racist past.
It's mostly about political correctness; but there you have it.
For my explanation of the difference see my reply to u/feigns_NA
As for me trying to detract from the point, that was not at all my intention. I was surprised to see it used casually in a decidedly not racist comment, so I thought I would point it out in case the commenter was unaware that it is offensive (as was the case).
I really didn't expect to get negative reactions on this comment. Perhaps I was careless with my tone
why black areas tho?
if you are really interested I made a reply to a different comment that you might like to read
Historically black people are given the benefit of the doubt less often than their white counterparts. In all phases of the criminal justice system, from cops to prosecutors to judges, leniency is afforded to white people more often.
Recently read an article that this happens at school with punishments as well.
It happens as early as kindergarten. Students of color are often labelled as bad kids more often and it sticks with them.
Hint: It’s rascism
so enacting new laws will hurt blacks? sheeeit
Because cops tend to enforce laws in a racist way.
I'm assuming because the high priced fines can hurt someone who is financially struggling
Have you been to black communities? There is trash everywhere. It's not racist, it's reality. My ex black panther professor in college was the first to bring this aspect of black urban culture to my attention.
One thing no one talks about in these discussions is city dumping. The burbs around Milwaukee don’t have local dumps. If you’re a resident in those burbs, and need to trash a large item, you’re supposed to pay a hundred buck fee to Milwaukee in order to dump there. Many don’t. Not blaming all the trash in poor Milwaukee neighborhoods on dumping, just adding to the discussion. Also keep in mind the broken window theory.
Yea man, I think it's 100% the broken window theory. It's not much of theory as much as it is a fact. When trash is already everywhere you don't think twice throwing just another piece on the ground... This type of mentality also seems to pervade the inner city culture. Also when your poor and struggling your not really thinking environment as much as your are survival. It's s cycle that could probably be broken through some sort of education initiative and raising the standard of living.
Littering culture still has no place in a modern world. Doesnt matter who does it
So many questions.
Was one of the coolest Professors I ever had. Guy had stories for days.
His professor was T'Chakka. What's to understand?
Saying "black people litter more" is a pretty narrow minded thing to say, but I think it's worth visiting why poor neighborhoods have more litter. I think it's pretty easy to trace the problem to lack of public garbage cans. Sure there are plenty of assholes who will throw their garbage on the ground without a second thought, but I believe that most people are willing to take a quick look around for a garbage can. If there isn't a garbage can nearby, or there is but it's overflowing and gross, people are likely to just throw their shit on the ground.
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the cause goes back to the tragedy of the commons. if a resource is limited but free, the consumers have no personal investment in it, so the resource, in this case subsidized or free housing, will not be taken care of.
Many so called "nuisance laws" have historically been selectively enforced along racial lines. Jaywalking, vagrancy, sundown/curfew, littering, etc.
That was likely the concern which millenium falcon misinterpreted or didn't understand.
Its the soft bigotry of low expectations. I identify more to the right than the left politically, and reading this pisses me off to no end
Yeah that's a hard sentence to swallow. A perfect example of a shit sandwich and what not to say.
Yep, I've never thought I could see a techincally PC, racist comment :/
This is an area where statistics and race overlap
Yea. Plenty of rednecks litter too. It's basically a poor people problem.
I always wondered at people who say stuff like that. Insultingly low expectations is possibly the most common form of racism I see :(
They were black though. I thought black people can't be racist ?
I'd rather the police spend time ticketing litterers. That way there's fewer cops trying to harass us speed demons
Most democrats are.
If being tough on littering means imposing fees, it is likely that fees would be given to proportionately higher numbers of marginalized people (either due to being more scrutinized, fewer places for garbage disposal in poor areas, or perhaps that they have not been as well socialized in disposing of trash appropriately. I don't know for sure but I suspect a combination). Those marginalized people are less likely to be able to pay the fee, doing more harm than good.
If I think of my hometown, another aspect is how poorer citizens were pushed out of home ownership and end up with only being able to rent from slum lords. A friend who works with realtors there says that whenever a newly affordable place opens up in that part of town, a realtor will snatch it up and switch it into an apartment that collects public funds and requires minimal maintenance. She even described it as “you don’t even have to fix them up or anything.” How are the poor supposed to get a leg up when vultures are swarming their few opportunities.
Combine that with things like block busting and other injustices, it’s this collective sentiment “you aren’t part of our community. We’ll just let you pay rent in the worst we have to offer.” Without ownership or sense of neighborly-ness, it’s easier to see why people might not think as much of litter. The city and the owners treat all of it like litter. If you do your part to keep everything clean, then you’re just free maids for slum lords, making their bottom line even cheaper.
Not to mention that a warrant can be issued for not paying fines, and if you can't afford fines you can't afford bail. So you may be locked up for an indefinite amount of time for a fucking cigarette butt.
Exactly.
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Most people agree with you but things get more complex when you talk about enforcement and the unintended consequences of strict enforcement.
By that logic there shouldn't be any new laws. I think the real problem is police need to be addressed with some unbiased federal oversight.
If the context is a three strikes rule, and someone may face prison over flicking a cigarette, maybe there’s an argument that it could disproportionately affect the black community.
However, when a judge says “don’t make me count to three”.....well......
Three strikes for littering and you go to jail? I don't see the problem.
I feel like jail is a bit excessive for littering. If anything, it should be mandatory community service with no possibility to pay your way out.
Sure, some form of severe punishment that's more than a slap on the wrists. I see my city (Baltimore) largely treated by a dump by every socioeconomic class. There's middle class white school teachers who throw their trash in alleys for others to deal with. There's poor black families who have litter all over their yards. There's people driving $100K+ cars who throw a bag of McDonalds out on to the street without thinking twice. Fuck 'em, lock 'em up or put their asses to work cleaning up the city.
Damn, I can understand how that must be pretty frustrating. Locking people up would just end up costing Baltimore money though, whereas mandatory community service costs the city basically nothing and is beneficial to the city and those that live there. It's a win-win
The punishment even makes sense. Trying to install a sense of community and selflessness in somebody that's severely lacking in those, only littering selfishly when there's generally no need.
Bring on the downvotes, but if you get caught littering 3 times you should not go to jail for life. Lord help. We need to empty the prisons of this bull. If you get caught 3 times, it's a mental issue or a education issue. Handle accordingly.
Who said anything about life in prison? Give people a weekend or a week to think about their actions. Or like someone else said, put them to work via community service.
Or an asshole issue
No, an itchy asshole just means you probably need to wipe better.
Fines are an acceptable solution I feel.
What do you do with people who cannot afford the fines?
I feel like some information is missing here.
EDIT - And there it is. Yeah, that's some bullshit logic for something like littering.
Present it.
Was the proposal "let's nail people with bigger fines more often for littering"?
Because yeah, that is bullshit that would hurt any poor people more often as a strategy.
If it's just public awareness, no, that's not a problem for anyone.
Why can't we have positive incentives instead of negative ones? Can we not put our heads together and come up with a scenario that helps the poor community and encourages everyone to be more mindful of small details like trash?
Maybe it’s because poor black neighborhoods have less access to trash pickup? Or that a $150 fine for littering will hurt them to a disproportionate amount.
The weird part about this is what on earth does being black have to do with littering, are they saying its in their genes or something? Everyone can learn to clean the fuck up after themselves. I'd say enforce this law especially in areas of lower socioeconomic status, since they're the ones who need to learn the worst.
I think the problem wouldn't be that the law is unfair, it's that the enforcement could be very unfair.
That's a problem with ALL laws, though. Selective enforcement can unfairly target or not target certain areas or demographics. This can happen both with policing (cops can turn a blind eye or just avoid an area) and prosecution (via prosecutorial discretion). Enforcement of laws and the content of the laws should be entirely separate matters.
I agree, but we live in a world where the negative consequences of selective enforcement are worth consideration.
Why not put extra focus on fair enforcement of laws instead of eliminating reasonable laws because of how they may be abused? There's an existing problem with enforcement already. Removing, altering, or not passing laws because of how they may be abused is not going to help with current enforcement problems. Let's actually fix problems, not put band-aids on them and plug our ears hoping for the best.
Yeah, that'd be great, but frankly I don't think it's as easy as you suggest. Policing the police is pretty damn hard.
It's not an easy problem. That's sort of the problem with politics today - politicians shy away from hard problems that don't have solutions that can't neatly fit into a sound bite. Just because something is hard doesn't mean we should avoid it and come up with half-assed solutions that have minimal impact instead.
I agree, and you can choose to seek the ideal world where police aren't abusive of their power and people are duly and equally punished for petty crimes like littering, but I'm going to oppose enacting laws that are easily used as a thin veil over institutional racism.
There is truth in that. But who do you fault, the officer looking to cite the offense or the person who tells the officer to fuck off when they tell someone "above reproach" to pick up their cigarette but or gum wrapper?
What? Since when? That sounds classist as hell tbh.
broken window theory should almost be called a truth. You can see it in those neighborhoods pretty clearly. Not to mention the number of people living on government assistance and the similar but separate theory that people have a hard time valuing that which they do not earn to it's appropriate worth. Just my .02.
You think those areas are run down because people simply "don't care?" Listen, I grew up in a poor neighborhood, and when for whatever reason things start getting worn down (which happens anywhere) you don't necessarily have the money to get it fixed. So when people come along and judge your character for that, it only reinforces classism and it's a bad feeling.
Your dehumanizing views on people who use welfare are not welcome.
I woke up in America today. "Online" is not a physical state of being. You don't tell me what is acceptable or allowed, welcome or warranted. I define my own reality, as you do yours.
How about instead of blaming a lack of money or motivation to attempt "fixing" what is broken, you don't let the fact that one window is broken be a justification to go ahead and break another. You DO know what the Broken Window Theory IS right? Or did you just jump at me because I said broke and rundown neighborhoods (like the one I grew up in too, partner) do more to break things down further than build them up? It is a pretty well explored and documented theory. They teach it in the Universities.
I would expect someone so well versed in Broken Window Theory to also know it's been largely debunked and that it's no longer taught in most curriculum.
The problem with BWT is the same as most of Jared Diamond's work. It starts with a known result set and tries to invent (usually biased) causes for those developments. In reality, you should be using developmental sources and extrapolating causes for those by going forward vs backward. So, whilst not being completely incorrect in it's logic, it neither answers the pertinent questions (How do we fix this?) nor does it give a valid reason for the development (Crime exists in inpoverished communities because they are neglected, viewed as criminals and have little support out of poverty vs BWT's essential supposition that inpoverished communities are inpoverished because they're inpoverished).
To end all this, you can easily counter BWT by pointing to the multitude of non-US cities where it doesn't hold true. London, Belfast, Berlin, etc. Cities where local neglect has no bearing on criminal gathering. In fact, the only cities it really holds true in are those specific ones Kelling & Wilson address in their article. Those being American mega-urban cities (primarily 1982 NYC but less so LA, Chicago and Detroit).
There are better explanations for why things accumulate in poor areas and it's not broken window theory. In general, money doesn't move into poor areas. If money isn't moving into those areas, if cities are neglecting them then of course trash and other things are going to accumulate. It's not because they're trashier; it's because things are allowed to accumulate where in other places they are not. It's the same with the bullshit notion that only poor people leave their carts in the middle of the parking lot. No, it's just that at locations in poor communities, there's less money available meaning fewer people hired to organize carts and fewer cart corals and a greater likelihood that someone will no call no show.
Sorry, I feel like it is right to call a person suggesting a black family cannot or will not pay their waste disposal bill a racist. My friend recently came out to help me with a simple home repair from the city. His wife and I went to Home Depot to get a few parts and supply for the job. She told me my town was racist because not enough minority lived here. I said "It isn't like they are waiting with guns at the county line or something..."
She said "well where are the bus stops and unemployment offices?"
I said "Hold the fuck on, so WE are racist because YOU don't think a black man can hold a job or own a car?"
Seems like a very standard thought pattern from the millenials suffering from white guilt. And it is offensive and dangerous.
You're comment doesn't really make sense as a reply to my comment. We're talking about socioeconomic status, not race. I never suggested that "a black family cannot or will not pay their waste disposal bill" especially because that is not the main reason places look dirty. It's because living in a place produces trash and if there aren't street sweepers, or public bins, or regular side walk cleaning, etc, then trash caused by life will just end up there and accumulate. My trash is picked up weekly and it's not rare for something to fall out. People walking down the street accidentally drop stuff or walk off and leave something without realizing it. A clean community will have a service which cleans up after normal dirt and trash caused by life which isn't anyone's fault. Poor communities can't do that. Also in some areas, trash is just put on the side walk not in bins to be picked up. it looks dirty, but again it doesn't mean people aren't paying their bills; it means the community can't afford or hasn't prioritized buying trash bins for everyone over other expenses.
Sorry I must have thought I was responding to another comment on mobile. Anyways. I really have no argument that holds water for you. BUT.... I live in a rural ass dirt poor midwestern trailer park. We have an old lady that walks. She picks up garbage when she walks. You know what the kids do when she walks by? They pick up garbage too. Last week, my daughter picked up an empty bag of chips when she thought nobody was looking. It isn't a race issue. It is a class issue, like most issue's that get treated like race issues. But even deeper than class, it is a community issue that transcends most other factors but culture in a micro glimpse fashion.
Maybe they’re saying the law would disproportionately be enforced on black people?
I'm going to call bullshit. You're leaving out some information, misinformed on why the act didn't pass, or willfully ignoring or mischaracterizing the ways that the act would disproportionately hurt black communities in lieu of being bigoted.
Sorry, what am I missing?
Why would this hurt black communities?
Honestly asking.
if you are really interested I made a reply to a different comment that you might like to read
Enforcement of laws like these often disproportionately affect minority and impoverished communities.
Wow, just when you thought you'd heard every racial stereotype...
Yeah, it's outrageously racist. Coming from a rural, all-white area, those roads have litter piled up everywhere. It's a dry county, and you can tell where the really garbage folks live because they throw the cans out the windows when they make beer runs across the river. It'll look almost like somebody's thrown a case of beer cans out the window, but that's really just a bunch of beer runs and a regular drinking and driving pace. I didn't figure that out until I started riding bikes with my dad, covering long distances while noticing the shoulder. There are other places where people too lazy to drive the extra 10 minutes to the nearest dump will just pull their truck over to the side of the road and literally throw bags of trash in the ditch. One of these places is a creek, and it's right across the road from the house I grew up in. I've probably personally removed between a thousand pounds and a ton of garbage from these areas, all put there by white people.
The reason we don't see as much litter in "white neighborhoods" is because those aren't white neighborhoods, those are wealthier neighborhoods, and those get cleaned. People who say things like this reveal their racism, and they're often unaware of it even after they've said this kind of thing. They might even swing on a person who insisted that they were racist. We don't want to make enemies of these people though, we want to convince them of the error of their thinking - so when these folks are encountered, we should be as delicate with them as possible. They are not, usually, the angry-mean type of racist. They are more often the pitying-condescending type... but racism that arises from good intentions is still racism.
I mean ppl driving to the ghetto and dumping their trash is a thing, but I'm definitely not disagreeing with that point.
Plus, that has to do with culture/poverty and nothing to do with race. It's not like people in Africa or Haiti litter more than anyone else.
A bunch of people coming into their neighbourhood and picking up garbage would probably make the neighbourhood a happier place, black, brown, beige or paisley.
Well, that's racist as fuck. I'm Mexican and the people who litter our beaches the most are white American tourists. Still completely empirical but I'm saying this because race isn't what indicates whether you litter or not, it's how much of an asshole you are
These are the people you're aligning yourself with. The left is spiraling into flat out brain damage land.
THE CENTER MUST RISE AGAIN! BIDEN/KASICH 2020!
“this will hurt black communities” what fucking town are you in?
Eh, who cares? Should we stop enforcing murder laws because the black community has a higher murder rate per capita? If they want to keep breaking the law then let them pay the consequences, along with everyone else.
My dad has been doing this for over 10 years now, since he saw a documentary about ocean pollution. Everytime he takes a walk on the beach, he collects all the trash and plastic he finds and throws it in the trash can, and has encouraged (and convinced) many friends and me to do the same.
Same here. Not just beaches though but most places I go. It's important to pitch in with e little things if we're going to function as a decent society.
Not doing so reminds me of this Indian poop beach video. At one point in the video they were showing the public restrooms in the area and they were so filthy they were basically unusable(hence why people poop on the beach). When the interviewer asked something like "why don't you all pitch in together to help keep the restrooms clean?" The response was basically "the government is supposed to do it". The government isn't doing it... People in areas like that could improve their quality of life dramatically if they didn't have the "not my job" mentality. I guess when population density gets that high, the idea of everyone pitching in literally goes down the toilet.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ixJgY2VSct0
Please tell your dad that he's an awesome human and thanks from a random stranger on the internet.
His face lit up so much!! :) It was so nice for him to hear people appreciate this; thank you for making his day!
People that litter piss me off more than anything. I’m not looking forward to our camping trip this year just because I know I will have to pick up 6+ bags of trash before we can even settle into our camp area. It’s a rural camp area so it’s not serviced by the state or federal parks program.
I was in awe, after my ex spoke passionately when we first met about not littering. Apparently throwing your cigarette butt out the window while driving doesn't count as littering.
I smoke but I don’t throw my butts on the ground. I will put it in my pocket or in my pack before I throw it. They don’t really decompose. Your ex is an ex for a reason lol.
Thank you so much for this. It's greatly valued and appreciated by most decent people. I can't fathom what goes on in the brains of the people who think it's OK to trash these places.
To be fair, it's not intuitive that litter thrown on the ground will eventually find it's way to the ocean. They sure didn't teach me that in school.
I agree with that, but it’s also common sense at some point that no one is gonna clean up the trash someone throws on the ground in the middle of nowhere.
I always throw a trash bag in my kit when I go kayaking. It gives my trips a point and is almost like a game to fill the bag before I get to the end.
A buddy and I went canoeing in Michigan's UP and collected about a cubic yard of trash from the riverbanks as we went. We were both pretty disgusted.
I regularly take my picker and a garbage bag to the park with me and my kids. Everyone assumes I work there, and give me the weirdest looks when I say I don't, but it's worth it.
good human
Hats off to you sir, that’s really cool, thank you for doing that :) ye have inspired me to do the same
Lol thanks. :D
我们应尽全力保持公园和海滩的清洁 - 不要期望别人在我们后面拾起垃圾和垃圾。!!!!
Hmm yes I agree
omae wa mou shindeiru
NANI!?
Good point
very well said. i concur.
It's all part of people feeling entitled, that some else should deal with their shit, that if they see litter, is not their problem. There is no sense of pride in keeping the community clean. My biggest pet peeve is finding used diapers randomly about (even bigger pet peeve is seeing parents change their babies on inappropriate surfaces like fast food tables but that's another thread).
Yeah, my mother always taught my brother and I to leave any public space we use (especially parks and nature preserves) cleaner than when we got there. Boy Scouts might have helped with that a bit too...
Being in the Military how I judge the quality of Leaders and individuals alike is if they walk pass trash and pick it up or not.
I wonder how Japan has its citizens all on point to keep the public clean. It's so annoying to see litter..
Heavy fees? When I was in Thailand I was on a tour, and we wore stickers do the guide knew we had paid. The tour guide then warned me to keep track of my sticker, as it had fallen off, and said tourists had been caught on cctv 'littering' that way and had been tracked down and fined.
Singapore also has crazy heavy consequences for littering. Spitting in public and chewing gum in general is illegal for starters. And then there's the threat of getting caned if you break the law. Singapore is one of the cleanest places I have ever visited.
The public mind in general is much more conscious of how their actions affect those around them. It's a deep and fundamental difference with U.S. culture.
If I remember correctly, Japanese schools make the students clean the place, not janitors.
That probably instills some clean habits.
But we need to create more jobs!!
/s
While on a study abroad with about 15 germans we visited a beach as a school trip and the first thing they did was walk the beach and pick up all of the trash which seems like a completely reasonable and smart thing to do but it blew my mind because I know my fellow Americans would have complained about the beach being dirty and probably contribute. It really opened my eyes and changed me while for them it was just 20 minutes I’m sure they immediately forgot
I live in an American beach community. I assure you nobody living in this or the surrounding areas would litter on the beach and there are frequent clean ups done by locals. Stop promoting the ugly American stereotype.
Well I live in a shitty American beach community and I’m sharing my experience the same as you are
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It was a really popular tourist beach in Italy. Also the beaches near where I’m from in the us are really dirty and polluted
Can we please start with all the dog poop laying around at my local park? I’m not a dog owner, but I love dogs. It’s enfuriates me when I see a little kid running with tears in their eyes to mom/Dad that they stepped in poop and now their level 9999 of fun gets immediately downgraded to 0.
I have to admit I have done that at times. Sometimes you forget your bags OR sometimes the ass decides to take 4 shits on one walk for unknown reasons compared to the usual 2.
I try to remember to pick it up the next walk or I try to bury it in dirt if I can.
I have to admit though it is equally annoying that people throw glass/food/litter around that can also hurt the dog. I try to make it a rule that everytime I pick up the shit, I will pick up any nearby litter so that I am not wasting some plastic on something biodegradable. Sad to say 9/10 times I usually always find litter and it makes no sense. If dogowners can carry a bag of poop for the 3-5 minutes it takes to find a thrash can following the dogs self chosen path why can't people do it too in their own neighbourhood?
Where I walk my dog, people have this bizarre habit of picking up/bagging their dog poop, and then putting the little poop baggie at the side of the path and just... leaving it there. And this isn't a groomed park, so it just sits there for days and weeks.
It's so absolutely infuriating. If you're not going to throw it out, just don't pick up the poop at all? At least it's biodegradable on its own, all you've done now is added plastic trash that will fuck up the environment.
Sometimes I will bring a large bag and go on a spree picking them all up, and I always end up with dozens. And by the next day, there's more, just sitting by the path...
Hm, what the fuck are these people doing? I find it hard to understand.
Slightly unrelated: I often see people from US complaining about plastic trash and poop bags. Are your poop bags not from biodegradable plastic?
Not too long ago, I commented that I make sure my high school band cleans up after themselves before we leave anywhere.
The negative reaction from some people was just mind blowing.
Please elaborate. Are you saying that people actually gave you push back for encouraging your students to pick up after themselves? Jesus I hate people sometimes.
Yes. I am saying that. In case I wasn't clear before, these were just reddit comments.
Can you direct me to some examples? I'm trying to wrap my brain around what possible arguments one could have against that. Call it morbid curiosity like watching a car crash or an open casket. I'm continuously amazed at the fuking stupidity of the average person nowadays.
In both the Marines and my trips to the BWCA I was always told to leave somewhere better than how you found it.
I live in Brooklyn and often see people literally emptying their dirty car garbage onto the street. It makes me so sad.
I fucking HAAAAAAAATE people who dont clean their shit at a beach. Even as a shitbag teenager i would always clean my crap up from the beach.
Because they dont. If they did, our oceans whould be safer for the animals in it
If you see litter, pick it up. Easy.
Not saying to be perfect. Just if you see it, pick it up.
I enjoy natural places and as a price for my time there, I pick up all the garbage I can. It's depressing how much is just thrown out because people have no respect for nature or their surroundings.
my dad taught me to always leave a place cleaner than when you arrived.
This. I am so sick of people littering in my bushes and on the sidewalk next to my house. Yesterday, I found a styrofoam sandwhich box impaled on my hedges and a soda bottle next to it. This is all at eye level as well.
When I hear about littering and environmental damage I'm always reminded of this Far Side cartoon:
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a7/97/9c/a7979cd8abe9481bb222dfb9f2bf68da.jpg
Why just parks and beaches? Take a look at Japanese cities and you'll realize just what kind of filth we live in.
Taking it a step further--factor plastic as an opportunity cost when you're making day-to-day choices. That stuff doesn't break down for hundreds of years, and recycling is inefficient. The average American creates 4.5 lbs of trash a DAY. People forget about the "reduce" part of 'reduce, reuse, recycle.' Bags of salad vs a bunch of spinach? Berries in boxes or bananas? A pack of granola bars or a bulk thing of protein for smoothies? Plastic jar of PB or a glass one? Reusable containers? It's crazy how unnecessarily indoctrinated we are into a plastic lifestyle.
I was amazed when I started paying attention to packaging. I've always had a pretty healthy diet, but it was completely turned on its head. Took me a while to figure out what worked for me and the environment. I still have plenty of questions (chicken in compostable wrap or a pack of tofu? Local milk in a deposit bottle or almond/coconut milk from elsewhere? I live in the midwest) and am by no means perfect.
It's so weird that plastic and the disposable lifestyle are only around a hundred years old. Definitely worth looking into how our habits affect the ocean, and how this affects climate change/environments. I'm up in the air about how grassroots efforts really affect change, but being responsible for my alleged 1600 lbs of trash a year is something I have a lot of control over. It's disappointing that everyone seems to agree on waste being an issue but no one sees it as their issue. On top of that, anytime I try to talk about it people assume I'm taking a 'holier than thou' position and tune out, which also sucks.
Every time I visit the beach in south Florida I always end up picking up publix grocery shopping bags, foam pieces and plastic cups. All either in the sand or in the water. It's not hard to care a bit:
Exactly...actually throw your own trash away people....simple.
Honestly, I also think people should take it upon themselves to pick up litter on their own when they see it, given it isn't a biohazard.
Not only parks and beaches. Our environment in general.
Picking up litter can be so satisfying! Every time summer rolls around I walk around downtown in the small, touristy city I live in and pick up any trash I come across. Seeing the area I spend so much time around just a little bit cleaner is a great feeling! Also as a little cherry on top, occasionally when I'm cleaning a stranger will come up and let me know that I've motivated them to pick up a bit here and there when they can, it's a simple gesture that makes the day just that much brighter.
I'm with you. Pretty much anywhere really. I know a grocery store in my town that has yet to clean the litter by the bus stop. The litter has been there since winter.
Yeah philadelphians. Listen to back2bach please. I get so mad when i see liter. Pick up your trash and if there isnt a trash bin hold on to it till you find one. Did philly not get the commercial with the crying native American?! Ugh! Also if you got small kids invest in a claw and when you go to the park bring a big trash bag and just pick up some trash. Kids have fun with it and its a nice thing to do.
Yes! I’m so glad this is the top comment. I came here to say be nice and don’t litter. I would give you gold, but i don’t know what that means.
Please learn this phrase in spanish and tell it to every spaniard you meet.
My BSA troop was always taught to leave it cleaner than you found it, take only pictures and leave only footprints, and police the campsite before leaving.
And the same for trails in the woods. I've been doing a lot of trailwork (New England, bad wind and snow storms) and hikers just walk by. It's like they expect 'someone else' to clear all the trails for them. The someone else is just someone like them, who understands there is no one else.
But also to pick up litter whenever we see it, even if its just a bottle or two.
This really annoys me. Don't understand people that are okay with leaving litter behind. It's like they have a part of their brain missing.
Great! Let's take it a step further - let's work on keeping all public places clean... especially bathrooms! Ugh.
To add to that. Be aware of how much plastic you use and try to use less.
as someone that lives in a large city i wish this would apply to city streets as well!
But isn't doing our part including pick up for those who don't do theirs? Which technically would perpetuate the idea that one doesn't have to because someone else will?
Not just parks and beaches. The other day i was outside a restaurant with a friend and she just blatantly threw trash on the ground outside my car. Its so dispectful.
It can be as simole as picking up three pieces of litter every time you go to the park. If everyone does it, it all adds up (take three for the sea movement). Also, use less waste. Once you realise you don't need to put your fruit and veg in the plastic bags at the supermarket, you use so much less single use plastic. actively make the choice to buy the unwrapped versions of items where possible, and recycle where ever you can.
Yes please. I work as a park aide for my city and I can’t tell you how much trash I pick up on trails on a daily.
Just saw a post on IG about cops in our city. After they conduct DUI checkpoints, they just leave their old, burnt out flares on the side of the road. What the fuck PD?
I was at a movies in the park showing on an absolutely beautiful night in one of our local parks with some friends. In front of us was a family of four, as the movie started everyone started to quiet down...everyone besides them. Not only were they being super loud and obnoxious throughout the movie but when it was over they left without picking up after themselves. They left a whole box of pizza some of which was scattered and a torn open bag of popcorn everywhere. Animals!
I think you had the right to tell them to shut the fuck up
Or in other words, we should all strive to be the "others" that are doing the picking up.
I was on some island on a cruise last year, and after 2 drinks figured it was time for a smoke. I meandered 200ft of sand to find a designated smoking area, in shade, nice. I light up and start looking around... There's at least 15 cigarette butts in the sand AROUND THE BUTT CAN. People made a long hot trek, on a resort island, with Crystal clear water, just to smoke; and can't bother to put them in the trash? What the fuck? I spent maybe 1 minute to take care of them all, no effort spent whatsoever but JFC if you want the gulf/Caribbean/wherever I was to look murky and brown, that's how you start.
Smoking is bad and all, but smoking AND polluting? C'mon...
This will never happen. Reddit reminds me everyday how many pieces of shit live on this planet.
Also, we should not expect others to clean after others. We should all do it a little, at least as much as there are other people who throw litter on the ground.
Glad this is the top comment its immediately what came to mind. Stop littering for god's sake it's not that hard. "When you litter the only real trash is you"
Bring a small trash bag in with you, fill it while you walk. I still get plastic shopping bags often enough to cover this and cleaning out my cats’ litter boxes.
My roommates should do their part to keep our kitchen clean and recycling bins not-overflowing.
Or not partaking in activities that create unneccessary garbage. There is a mentality that cleaning it up solves the issue, but it's pure NIMBYism. That garbage ends up somewhere else, destroying the environment elsewhere.
As somebody who lived in a third world country and now lives in USA. Please don't litter. You have no idea how dirty a city can get. It's not just parks and beaches.
Our private and any other public space.
I think you mean *protest sites
And if you see some trash, pick it up! I don't care if you didn't put it there, if you walk by it and do nothing, you're just as guilty. I always keep a plastic bag with me in parks and on beaches for this reason. If touching someone else's trash really grosses you out, invest in some disposable nitrile gloves
In general not expecting others to pick up after us. Being responsible for yourself.
How about just not littering, anywhere, it's really not necessary.
not expecting others to pick up litter and debris after us
FTFY
As a groundskeeper, truer words have never been spoken. You don't know how much trash people produce until you're responsible for cleaning it..
And roads. And everywhere else.
I saw this girl put a piece of gum in her mouth then casually drop the wrapper on the ground. I thought I should say something but couldn't think of what. Should I have said something?
"Treat me like an employee and I'll treat you like a customer. Treat me like a person and I'll treat you like a friend." is a tip I like to tell people.
Okay, Ms. Knope.
Why stop there? Just keep everything clean, parks and beaches included. Don't be lazy and pick up after yourself, it's not difficult nor is it time consuming.
My rule of thumb is that if I ever say to myself "Someone else will do it", then I immediately change my mind and take action. It works wonders for a lot of things.
Went to my local beach and I was surprised by how much trash was in the sand. I didn't have any tools to clean up so I just got a handful at a time. People were actually just staring at me cleaning up...is it really that crazy?
Omfg! I came here to say “pick up your dog shit” because as a dog owner I HATE seeing people leave their pet waste as it makes all dog owners look bad. But your point summed it all up perfectly in an unselfish manner.
Or just the world in general.
How about even your neighborhood? My girlfriend and I always used to complain about the amount of trash that would lay around our neighborhood. Then we decided that instead of bitching about it, why don’t we just put on some gloves and clean it up ourselves? I don’t know if anyone else has noticed, but it makes us feel like we’re doing our part on our little patch of the world.
So the rest of the world is ok to litter on bet.
Guy from San Diego here. Thank you so much for your top comment. <3
I try really hard to stay away from plastic straws and clam shells. There are certainly times when I can’t avoid it, but just being cognizant of how much one-use plastic items you are using and trying to curb some of those habits would help immensely.
I chased down a group of people who left their grocery bags, half eaten ice cream box, bunch of random crap at the beach. I said, “excuse me I think you left some of your stuff behind”
I mean really. Out side is not a trash can. Would you throw a wrapper on your floor? Would you throw that cup on the floor in your bed room? Pick up your damn trash like an adult.
I have made it a life rule to always bring with me more than I took myself back home / trash. Just doing my part
Especially cause every gas station has a trash outside, just take your garbage and next time you stop at a gas station put it in the trash instead of leaving it on the ground
The Japanese have this figured out. Schools don’t have janitors. Instead, at the end of every day, the kids gather up the cleaning supplies and tidy up the school. The country is immaculate
I heard a while back that Japan has the mindset of one should leave a place cleaner than when they entered it. I've taken that to heart. I always pick up my own stuff and if I can someone else's too.
and brutally beat the shit out of anyone who doesn't pick up their trash, because that's what being a good environmentalist is all about
Shit. I’d settle on not seeing diapers in shopping mall parking lots these days. Humans are disgusting.