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r/funnyu/ImportGuy (15845)

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[deleted]

Solution

That sketch was amazing, and this answer is fucking brilliant

At least he didn't use variables like Shamrock and Rainbow and Misty_Morning_Dew.

Great short story! I've been doing programming for a little over a year in a somewhat small development team and I can definitely relate to getting ridiculous requests. I will certainly be keeping this in mind for the future.

Also worth remembering is the Rubber Duck Method of Debugging.

What's even more brilliant is that it's a perfect example of the relationship between the "expert" and those asking for the product. The expert creates a solution for which the term "out-of-the-box" is woefully inadequate, delivering an impossible product as per requested. And the ones who requested the ridiculous product will remain oblivious to just how marvelous the thing they are holding really is.

BRILLIANT!

Except it doesn't match the spec. The lines drawn in green ink are green, not red as requested.

The red paper between the green lines are counted as lines. as is the red paper between the red lines

Yes, there are quite a few red lines here, Anderson, but where are the red lines drawn with green and transparent ink? I don't see any transparent ink, and the lines you drew with green ink are green. You said you could do this, Anderson.

I've been griefing newbs with this gif for a while, it is one of my favorites +)

Not a gif

It's just a gif with sounds.

Report to noob briefing

[deleted]

Of course, he's an expert

Into a kitten!!

[deleted]

It has to be a single balloon tho!

10/10 holy fuck

Well, shit. No one show this to my project manager. Please. They'll never take "no, that won't work" for an answer ever again.

Close enough

Everything is close enough relatively speaking.

The trick is to just report it as successful, there never going to be competent enough to understand anyway.

[deleted]

But don't they have to be straight?

Yes. Strictly speaking, those aren't lines.

Strictly speaking any real representation of a line is only a line segment

Not in the case of a Möbius strip

Putting aside the term 'real' here, representations in math are not necessarily identical to what they represent. "0.333..." has only 4 digits written out, but that doesn't make it a non-repeating decimal.

edit: finite number>non-repeating decimal.

It's certainly greater than 0 and less than 1. It's sure not infinite.

..oof. I have been outpedanted. My thanks!

Until you realise that 0.333... is equal to 4.

Edit: Until I realise I'm thinking of 3.999...

That's 3.999... you're thinking of.

Fuck sake, I did the thing. Thank you for correcting me, though.

No problem! Math pedantry is fun for all ages : D

[removed]

Always a good point!

The spec asked for the engineer to draw the lines, not fold or bend the paper. How are you going to justify the cost to your boss (who couldn't understand why the request as given was impossible in the first place), and what do you do when the bends and folds make the product unsuited for it's intended purpose?

You have an expensive over budget project that doesn't do what the client wanted.

Only straight lines have to be straight.

Lines are strictly straight. What those are are curves.

Any curve can be represented as a line in some curved space.

Why would there be such a thing as squiggly lines if all lines were straight?

Those aren't technically lines; they are curves.

Curvature was never specified

They never specified geometric line. You could draw a phone line.

What are you, some kind of bigot?

Goddamn queer lines. They think they're just FABULOUS

They never said anything about straight lines.

All lines are straight.

Not on a spherical plane

All are red lines use red ink?

Edit: what is this, kindergarten?

Nope. A line is a long, narrow band or mark. A line can be straight or curved, but it is still a line.

A line is a straight one-dimensional figure having no thickness and extending infinitely in both directions. A line is sometimes called a straight line or, more archaically, a right line (Casey 1893), to emphasize that it has no "wiggles" anywhere along its length.

A line that is not straight is a curve. There are many types of curves, for example a parabola.

Definition: A parabola is a curve where any point is at an equal distance from: a fixed point, and a fixed straight line

Note the use of "curve" instead of "line" or "bent line".

By that definition, the lines would also have to be infinitely long and be drawn with 0 thickness

A line is also a goemetric construct in a "perfect" 2D world. There is no way to represent a 2D object perfectly in a 3D physical world. There is no such thing as a "square", only a very flat rectangular box. In a similar way, you can't have a "line with zero thickness" in the 3D world because you wouldn't be able to see it. For math's sake the line width has to be "0" because otherwise you have to give it a width and then account for that in calculations. In the real world we just hope the width is small enough to be trivial.

According to Wikipedia a line is straight. In any case, I don't think there is any definition of perpendicularity for lines which are not straight.

Geometrically speaking, no. ALL lines are straight.

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The lines are straight. They just decided to bend space around them.

I mean if you want to get technical, a line isn't just "long". But, yes, you are right, it can be curved or straight.

I'm sorry, but that is a cat, not a kitten. There's a difference you know... Oh! What am I saying? You know that, you are the expert after all!

none of them satisfy the requirement. the requirement was that all lines be perpendicular to each other.

and FYI none of them are lines either. Neither solutions will pass QA.

you all are terrible solution engineers. and are dishonest too.

Perpendicular: at an angle of 90° to a given line, plane, or surface.

If you follow every line though, you can see quite clearly that they pass every other line at an angle of 90 degrees.

Line: a long, narrow mark or band.

I think the only requirement for it to be a line is that it is longer than it is wide. Sure they have a curve. But lines can have curves, otherwise 'straight' lines wouldn't be a thing. I'm sure while they may not look like lines at the moment, but they were all drawn as a line.

I'm sure we can get approval from the customer for these few minor modifications to the original specification. It's not like customer requirements are always accurate in the first place.

RIP Geometry. Why even bother having any standards and definitions anymore...

I'm sure we can get approval from the customer for these few minor modifications to the original specification. It's not like customer requirements are always accurate in the first place.

that's not a minor modification, trust me.

Is this a line?

Are these two perpendicular lines? Or does it suddenly become a cross because they overlap.

I grant you the solution doesn't have 'perpendicular lines', but it does have lines with are perpendicular to each other. And if you're talking about the mathematically definition of a line, I'd like to see you draw one with a pen.

who's gonna pay ... ?

Well given such terrible requirements, I'm pretty sure I'd have some customer funded development written into the contract. Certainly have a break out clause if they didn't accept the initial development and findings. If it went to court a judge would probably rule in my favor as the specified requirements are clearly impossible to implement.

That's why it's a joke in the first place.

Is this a line?

no.

are these two perpendicular lines ?

I can't say. Are the products of their slopes -1 ? if yes, then they are

Well given such terrible requirements, I'm pretty sure I'd have some customer funded development written into the contract. Certainly have a break out clause if they didn't accept the initial development and findings. If it went to court a judge would probably rule in my favor as the specified requirements are clearly impossible to implement.

Why did you take the customer's money and make a promise to deliver something you knew was impossible ? The customer would have your ass on the grounds of fraudulent misrepresentation, because it can be proven that a solution for such a problem is theoretically impossible, and the court would rule in their favor. The contract would be rescinded, and you will have to return the money.

You should have said upfront that it's an impossible task and should have refused to take up the task in the first place. Are you 10 years old to not know this ?

That's why it's a joke in the first place.

Exactly. It's a joke. There is no solution to this problem. So your original statements.

I preferred this one.

This was pretty good too.

are inaccurate, which is my whole point. I still don't know what you're on about.

If you had any experience of contracts whatsoever, you'd know that technical terms are elaborated to remove ambiguity. The customer's statement of work or system requirements would clearly define what they meant by a line and perpendicular.

Obviously they want some solution, no need to turn away good work.

If you had any experience of contracts whatsoever, you'd know that technical terms are elaborated to remove ambiguity. The customer's statement of work or system requirements would clearly define what they meant by a line and perpendicular.

Right, and until that is clarified (which as per the standard mathematical definition is already pretty clear and unambiguous) you cannot go around claiming that you have two solutions for their problem, now can you ?

Obviously they want some solution, no need to turn away good work.

Obviously you should have the ethical backbone to, stand up and say that the solution to their problem cannot be achieved, as far as the current system of mathematics and logic are concerned, which you clearly don't have, as you have shown by trying to provide alibis for why, and how you could make money off of their ignorance.

If you worked in engineering company and said, "It's impossible to draw a line, we can't take your money", you'd probably be fired on the spot and laughed out the building.

Here you go, here is your impossible definition:

A "Line" shall be defined as:

  A long thin mark made by a pen with the following properties:
    i)   is straight
    ii)  has no thickness
    iii) extends in both directions without end (infinitely)

If you can't possibly move away from that, then you haven't understood what the customer is actually asking for. It has absolutely nothing to do with ethics.

If you can't possibly move away from that, then you haven't understood what the customer is actually asking for. It has absolutely nothing to do with ethics.

It has everything to do with ethics. It's downright illegal.

You claim to have two solutions to a problem, without understanding the customer's requirement or after understanding that their requirement, as it currently stands, is impossible to fulfill. Either way, your statement that you have two solutions is a lie. How is it NOT an issue with ethics and (a total lack of) professionalism ?

If I sell you a pair of headphones that don't work, claiming that they do, how is it not dishonest on my part to do that ? How is it any different ?

If I claim to have a miracle healing therapy that I claim can cure cancer just by my touch (which is pure bullshit), and you pay me money to have your friend cured, because you have tried everything else and you might as well try my therapy as well... How is it not dishonest of me ?

I get what you're trying to pull is "Get the contract first, negotiate requirements later...It will work out. ". That's a great sales angle and will make you really successful.
The question is what if your customer is an asshole like me and would not budge. What then ? Sure, it may be one in a million chance of that happening, and in reality most customers are quite reasonable and open to a lot of negotiation once the work commences, but what if they are not ?

If you worked in engineering company and said, "It's impossible to draw a line, we can't take your money", you'd probably be fired on the spot and laughed out the building.

I don't care if I get ridiculed for speaking the truth. If the company will fire me on the spot for pointing the obvious then it's their loss.

I'll find a company who respects my integrity and honesty and ability to say "no, it can't be done, and here's why I think it can't be done."

It's not an impossible definition. It's an abstract idea and what the requirement is to project that idea into the physical world (atleast part of it), which is possible.

What is not possible is the creating 7 perpendicular lines , perpendicular to each other, which you claim you have two solutions of. It is not permitted by the laws of geometry.

The requirement can be modified to say "line-segment" or "a finite part of the line finite line", but no matter how you try to resolve the issue of making 7 perpendicular lines you cannot do it, because if 3 lines are perpendicular in a 2D space, the 3D line will have to be parallel to either the first or second line.

Do you understand now ?

You're honestly saying to me, if someone said, "Draw a line on this piece of paper", you'd throw your arms up and wail, "Oh but the rules of geometry dictate that a line must be infinitely long, it's an impossible task! It can't ever be done!". That's what you're claiming in your response there. Nobody even mentioned perpendicular, they just said line and you ran away screaming. I can only conclude you're an idiot.

Scenario (like you're even taking this in): A customer comes in and requests me to draw 4 red, perpendicular lines. (a simpler problem, although still impossible)

I explain to them that there may be some issues resolving what they actually want, simply down to the fact that you can't have more than 3 lines perpendicular to each other, even then it wouldn't fit on a sheet of paper. So I agree a programme with them to resolve why they want "4 perpendicular lines" in the first place. It's funded by them and I clearly explain the problem and what we'll do to work towards a solution.

It could just be that they want a single line with three lines crossing over it at 90 degrees. They could have been curved lines, that's not a problem for them, as long as they're each drawn in a single stroke.

There is absolutely nothing illegal, unethical or unprofessional about that.

If you can't even understand this basic concept, after I've explained it several times I really don't know what else to say. Just downvote and move on, I'm done banging my head against this wall, because clearly you'll never understand.

(1) Did you even read what I wrote ?

(2) Did you even watch the original video ?

(3) I m glad you're done, because I you're the kind of person who just does not accept the fact that they are wrong and move on.

Bottom-fuckin-line -- You cannot give a motherfucking solution to a problem that you do not understand completely or you understand that the problem cannot be solved.

You can pull all the semantics and specifics outta your ass to to break out to a tangent and try to get my attention away from the original argument and the original point - which, I repeat is, that YOU CAN'T PROVIDE A SOLUTION/CLAIM TO HAVE A SOLUTION TO A PROBLEM WHOSE (a) REQUIREMENTS ARE NOT CLEAR OR (b) REQUIREMENTS ARE CLEAR AND IT CAN BE LOGICALLY CONCLUDED THAT NO FEASIBLE SOLUTION EXISTS, but that's not happening. You can fool everyone, but you can't fool me. I ain't budging.

EDIT:

They could have been curved lines

After all the comment exchanges, you still don't even know the difference between a line and a curve. Atleast you could have read up about lines...

y=mx+c my friend. Try fitting a "curved line" through that and only then bother to reply to me.

I know I said I was done... But.

You can fool everyone, but you can't fool me.

Hahahaha. And what set did you define that included 'everyone' that you didn't belong to. Mr. maths genius.

fit a "curved line" thru y=mx+c first Mr. Solutions Expert, then we talk.

What on earth do you mean by 'thru'?

y = x^2 + c - 1 will pass 'thru' that line. Does a parabola satisfy 'curved line' for you?

The specs never specify a geometric line. You can draw a phone line, a contour line, a conga line, think outside the box bro.

Wait a minute...that kitten shape is how you draw the kitten from the Simon's Cat series!

You say 3 are drawn using transparent ink, but I see that 2 more of your lines were drawn using transparent ink, were you on a tight budget of ink and had to downsize our project?

Another concern is that each line is perpendicular to EVERY line. Our requirements clearly stated that a line should be perpendicular to every OTHER line other than itself, to be perpendicular to itself is both wasteful and problematic.

Also, the demonstration clearly shows lines that are not uniform size, our company can't work with a structure that has lines of different sizes.

The last point I would like to bring up is the shape of a kitten. It does not look like a line is in the form of the kitten, it looks more like that the piece of the paper is in the form of the kitten, our company policy mandates that all pieces of paper shall be perfectly flat and with no creases or bends (this issue might be connected with the issue of the perpendicularity of the requested lines)

Also the lines drawn in green ink are not red lines.

The "two more using transparent ink" are actually two of the three drawn with green ink. There are no green lines, they are simply the borders of the red lines, drawn using green ink. Trust him, he's an expert!

So then there are no red lines drawn with green ink. Doesn't much the spec anyone you slice it, because the spec is fundamentally impossible.

I donno, it just doesent have that wow factor. Can you make it pop?

Well, duh, the answer was obvious. I can't believe how the first guy didn't get it (not to mention he was really confusing). ^/s

they are all parallel...

Aaaand perpendicular. Take a second look

ah yeah ok I see it now :)

By definition can something mathmatically be both parallel and perpendicular though?

Yes, if you're on a 3d plane.

What the hell is a 3d plane and what exactly is the definition of parallel on such a thing?

no. two lines can be parallel, or perpendicular, bot not both

In higher dimensions than 2, yes.

In Euclidian geometry no. Higher dimensions only allow the ability for you to have more dimensions in which to be perpendicular. In 3d space lines must be on the same plane in order for them to be considered parallel.

Assume we have two lines that are both parallel and perpendicular. Then the two lines must define a plane on which they are parallel. If both lines exist on the same plane and are perpendicular they must intersect on that plane, but that contradicts the idea that they are parallel.

Curving spaces is fun.

They all intersect themselves and each other at where the paper crosses itself.

Wait... I believe the company required 7 red lines... but then tacked on the additional 'request' for him to draw seven red lines. Some of those 'red' lines with different colored inks.

He's only drawn 2. ==;;

Experts truly can do the impossible! XD

Those are parallel lines

I don't see how those were "all strictly perpendicular". They were just parallel, but still intersected at 90 degree angles. The phrasing there makes it sound like they're supposed to be perpendicular to each other.

As soon as he pulled out the Exacto I knew he was going for the manifold. This guy is great. He needs to do more videos.

Funny. Does anybody remember "Doctor Science" from public radio a few decades ago?

"He knows more than you do . . . he has a -Master's- Degree [pause] in SCIENCE!!"

Gawd I'm old.

I actually know this expert, and got sent the video shortly after he put it up. Crazy seeing it get this popular.

Those aren't lines because they curve and lines have to be straight.

Those lines are both parallel and simultaneously perpendicular, not strictly perpendicular.

That's a cat, not a kitten

Well, I'll be damned

[deleted]

His implication is the lines are drawn on curved space. The lines are straight, it's the space that's curved.

I feel like that's wrong but I don't know enough about theoretical mathematics to dispute it!

It's more or less legit. We're used to operating in flat space and 3 dimensions, and in that space, yes, it's a curved line on the surface of a curved piece of paper.

However, if you take the 2D surface of the piece of paper to be the surface you use as your "space", it's no longer flat, so despite being "straight", a line can be warped by the contours of space itself.

You can see the same thing happen in the real world in the vicinity of objects with a lot of mass - gravity is an expression of space being curved, and will genuinely change the shape of a straight line into one that is deflected towards the mass. Photons always travel along straight lines, but rays of light can appear to be curved by gravity because they're taking a straight path across curved space.

I was referencing "Its Always Sunny in Philadelphia," but thanks for the legit answer. I really like the photon example, it helps make the concept clearer.

Well. Imagine that you draw a straight line on a huge sphere. Like the earth. If you drew a straight line all the way around the earth it would naturally be curved, since the earth is a sphere (this is disputed by some people). Every single line is straight as an arrow. The earth is curved, not the line.

Thanks for the answer, it makes sense. I was cracking a little joke.

If you knew enough about mathematics you wouldn't try to dispute it.

Oh! Sorry my grace, please allow my philistine existence to continue.

You may continue breathing.

except you're wrong, because the space isn't curved, the paper is

ITT: people that don't realize the difference between objects in space being bent and space itself being bent which is what /u/Sushisource was trying to elude to it being (and which it's not)

He's referring to the mathematical definition of a "space," which is the 2d space of the paper in this case.

That doesn't translate to reality. It's a mathematical abstraction.

It's like a klein bottle -- you can make something like it, but it still isn't exactly it.

[deleted]

Nope.

I have a masters in mathematics. This is purely abstraction. A model is not the same as the actual abstraction. All of these shapes have boundaries whereas the abstract mathematical concepts do not.

Klein bottles are only possible in 4D. But fortunately this certain 2D problem can be solved in 3D space. The 3D model may not be correct by definition. But the 2D problem is solved.

except that's wrong, because the paper is not space, the paper is a plane that is IN space (which is usually referred to as our 3 dimensional space). /r/Sushisource is trying to say, and in fact is exactly saying "it's the space that's curved"... no, it's not, it's a plane, in this case, the piece of paper, that's being curved IN SPACE

the circlejerk on reddit trying to be smarter than they understand is overwhelming

Please don't go around belittling people in fields you don't understand.

Please don't go around belittling people in fields you don't understand

I'm an engineer who took quantum physics back when I was in school, I know what I'm talking about.

Lol, no you don't. You don't even have the right field.

sure, because you know me /s

If you had taken a relativity class, you would know about different spaces.

[deleted]

such a long rant which means nothing; I took calc III, diff eq, and physics III, all requirements for an engineering degree, also took theoretical mathematics as my elective years ago. Stop trying to act like you know me, you don't

[deleted]

Those are all fucking lower-div baby math classes, so you just confirmed everything I just said. Why are you commenting on shit when you have zero experience with anything even close to the topic at hand?

do you even hear yourself? that's literally the requirements for a minor in math, nowhere near "lower-div math classes" (theoretical mathematics is a 5000 level class). In fact I took calc III as a freshman and had to get an override since you CAN'T take it (under normal circumstances) in the first 2 years of college

i'm done with you, no point in talking to stupid

your wrong

dat searing irony doe.

dat searing irony doe.

Is there an "irony doe"? And why is she searing? We need /u/Shitty_Watercolour.

Edit: fixed name and added quote

Well, if she's iron-y in the sense that she similar to iron, she could be heated to a searing temperature...?

I think he's pointing out that his grammar is wrong

it should be "You're wrong,"

instead of what he wrote. I guess it's kinda Ironic, but not really

I know. I was just being silly. Thank you none-the-less.

auto-complete is a thing (swype for you're and your is almost exactly the same motion)

also, that's a missuse of the word irony, but that's a whole other issue

It's absolutely not a misuse of the word irony.

Cheers pal!

[deleted]

passed algebra, calc III, diff eq, and physics III (quantum physics) with a degree in engineering

that being said, read what he wrote, he's trying to say that space is being bent. that's not AT ALL what's happening hear, the OBJECT is being bent, in space

You didn't take any of those classes and come out this pedantic about a visualization. You know damn well that that paper was meant to illustrate a curved space. Play your fuck fuck games with some one else.

Played your fuck fuck games with some one else.

you have problems kid

I'm worried about you

I'm worried about you if you truely think the guy in the video is bending space

Unless you're wrong, in which case the paper is flat, the lines are straight, and the paper is laying flat on curved space

And one space in the shape of a kitten.

One of many kitten shaped spaces upon which their fur lies flat.

again, the space is not being bent, the PAPER is being bent in space. There's a huge difference between the two statements

If you are on a tiny car driving along those lines...... are you making any turns?

You should consider taking some math classes and learn what defines a plane, a line, etc.

I think you should, then reread his and my comment, he's saying that SPACE is being bent. No, the OBJECT (paper) is being bent IN space

...I majored in math. You should stop talking. You are making yourself look worse. You clearly have no idea how these things are actually defined.

My theory on the guy you responded too is that he at first didn't understand the visualization in where the paper is a curved spaces through which the lines were drawn. I feel like this was explained to him and rather than just take his new understanding and be done with it he decided to argue on a technicality in where the guy in the video did not actually bend the space time continuum we experience and just folded to paper in that space which while technically true completely misses the point of the demonstration and is honestly useless toward furthering an understanding of spaces and curvature.

Or this is the type of person that would argue a mobius strip has two sides, which wouldn't surprise me.

he's bending an object in 3 dimensional space... simply put, it's IMPOSSIBLE to have 6 lines intersect in 3 dimensional space. The only way to do that would be in 6 dimensional space which only works in theory, we don't have access to those other 3 spatial dimensions. Meaning those "lines" are no longer lines in the 3 dimensional space that they exist in.

Everybody is trying to act sudo-savy, not because they understand but, because they've seen the example before of how you can bend a peace of paper to help imagine how a worm hole would work. But that's not what's happening here because we're only in 3 spatial dimensions. there is no 4th+ spatial dimension in the video/example. (take note how I keep saying "spatial" dimension). He's trying to add 3 more dimensions that just don't exist (or, we just don't have access to, yet) in the video to where the guy "solved" the problem

either way, I was arguing what exactly the original person stated that "space is being bent" in the video. It is most certainly not, an object is being bent in space. There's a huge difference between those two statements

He said that the space (i.e. the 2-manifold) on which the lines were being drawn is curved. That's it.

And you presumably mean pseudo-savvy, not sudo-savy.

Dude, others have explained this to you; the paper is the "space" .

what college gave you your degree, if you seriously don't understand the difference

You do realize the reason you are being downvoted into oblivion by everyone is because you are wrong right? People have tried to explain it to you and you still insist you are correct. I'm not even sure attempting to explain it to you further would be productive because I literally have no clue how to word it differently than other people so that you will understand it.

Do you honestly not get it or are you just trolling/digging your feet in because you don't want to admit you are wrong?

no, people are trying to act sudo smart with the whole "bending space", as in why theories like worm holes exist, it's the space that's bent. Except that's not what's happening here, he's bending a paper in 3 dimensions (we don't have access to theoretical extra spatial dimensions). The PAPER is being bent, NOT SPACE. Space is not being bent here, which is what the person I originally replied to stated

the mass' ignorance doesn't make them right. I bet you not even 1% of the downvotes are from anybody that's even touched quantum physics let alone basic physics

You are just being purposefully dumb. You know damn good and well the paper is supposed to represent a plane. That's clearly what the person meant. You are trying to talk about technicalities which are stupid.

If you are going to do that, you technically can't even draw a line as every line you draw will be 3 dimensional which is by definition not a line. Also since you seem so concerned with technicalities.

Space is not being bent here, which is what the person I originally replied to stated

Space is always being bent by objects with mass. The paper, the ink, etc. are all bending space in some small way.

except I'm not being technical, he exactly said that SPACE IS BEING BENT, not that the paper is supposed to be representative of space, read his post again

Dude, my point is that you are reading everything literally with zero attempt at reading comprehension. You should know what the guy is talking about instead of fretting over semantics. Most people would understand this just from the context of what is going on.

trying to act sudo smart

Oh, the irony...

that's not what irony is

The term irony in the academic study of literature is not the same as the word irony in everyday English. Just like how the word space in mathematics means something different than the word space in physics or in everyday English.

Sucks that everyone is berating you rather than educating you.

If the paper were to be unfolded, then the lines would be straight again, que no?

So, technically, those are and will always be straight lines. When those lines are folded by physically manipulating the space around the lines, in this case 'paper' being folded, then the lines form a infinite connection.

The Theseus' paradox poses a fun question: A Dude and his Crew sail the seven seas. While they sail together, they make repairs after each journey, changing out the Sails, the Planks, down to the screws in the gallows. After years of sailing, one day Theseus realized that each part of his entire ship has been replaced by a new component. He asks his crew this famous question: "Is this our same Ship that we've sailed through these Seven Seas?"

Are you looking at a Straight Line or the edges of a much larger Circle?

Would a Line by any other name curve just as sweet?

That isn't analogous to this topic.

How not?

Your analogy is describing a qualitative similarity between a straight line and a very small segment of a circle.

The topic being discussed is a quantitative one in the field of topology, where a "straight" line through N dimensions can in fact be curved through N+ dimensions. This is mathematically provable.

You mean the ending Straight line Large Circle?

Nah, that's just needless pontification to express changing perceptions.

Why would a line curve sweetly?

that's great and all, but reread what /u/Sushisource wrote and what I wrote, he's tryiing to say that SPACE is being bent in the video. that's not at all what's happening, the OBJECT is being bent in space

Oh, well, thank you for the correction.

np, wasn't attacking you or anything, just pointing out what basically all of reddit seemed to have just skipped/ignored. I think the reddit hivemind completely missread both statements and well.. you know how the circlejerk goes

He is simply using non euclidean geometry

and why can I not see the transparent lines?

The lines are red, it's the ink that is transparent.

Then why did he use a blue pen?

if you get close enough to them they appear infinite and straight in both directions.

draw them in 7 spatial dimensions then draw a 3d projection.

that's great in theory, but in practicality we can't draw lines outside of our 3 dimensions

That's why I saida 3d projection. Much like a 3d projection of a hyper-cube

"We need you to draw seven red lines, all of them strictly perpendicular. Some with green ink, and some with transparent."

If I recall correctly it was said he was the expert in drawing red lines. Once they are drawn the stipulation was never made that they had to remain lines.

Also by definition all lines(in this context) are straight, no need to say straight line.

Had to do it in the fourth dimension, but that's why we pay him the big bucks.

I think making them perpendicular could work on the right curved surface. At least three perpendicular lines are easy.

The problem is trivial if you simply draw the lines in ℝ^7

What about the one in the form of a kitten?

I leave that as an exercise to the reader.

Oh god, I'm getting university flashbacks...

ℝ^cat ?

No, cat's are not kittens, kittens are smaller, but I shouldn't have to tell you this.

Now I believe you're an expert.

Of course, the solution isn't in the $80 answer-book, and when the professor goes over it in class he'll spend 30 minutes on it and eventually solve it using methods that have nothing to do with your course!

Hahaha this is perfect considering some of the stuff I've had to read.

ℝ^(6∪kitten) ?

Is that a fucking unity symbol?

ℝ^6 X ℝ^kitten

Perhaps if the surface of the seventh line is in the shape of a kitten, it would still be a straight line but on a kitten shaped surface.

So we need to draw this whole thing, and then make a kitten wear it?

The kitten will wear 6 of the lines perpendicular to the 7th line, which is drawn on it.

Since we are now working in 7 dimensional space, I'm sure that we can figure out an arrangement of 7 dimensional lines that when projected into a 2 dimensional space can appear, due to pareidolia, as a kitten.

Or to make it simpler, just get a 7 dimensional kitten.

Introduce a non-euclidean coordinate space that exists in the form of a kitten.

Well duh thats the standard base of R^kitten didnt you listen in your algebra courses?

The problem is solvable using 3D space, as shown in a post above, but I'm guessing the original video is dealing with 2D printing or something? I dunno, it's probably just a metaphor for IT stuff >_>

It's just a metaphor for unrealistic client expectations. Not IT per se.

Engineer here. We get this kinda stuff a lot from management who think they know what the customer needs. 90% of the time they have no idea what's going on and are simply parroting what the customer said.

Parroting what the customer said the way they heard/interpreted it.

"I need an Onyx OS on this laptop for..."

"Wait, do you mean UNIX?"

"NO! ONYX!"

There are many reasons I drink, and this is one of them.

Are you not a pokemon programmer?

I used to make my boss put this kind of stuff in writing and sign it. Once a signature is involved you usually get better spelling of what they want. If not they can get https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnyX

Onyx OS? You mean IRIX?

So, minor inconveniences cause you to drink? Man, your arrogance inconveniences me. ...I need a drink.

It might seem flippant, but imagine having to fight tooth and nail with your boss to convince him that was actually Unix really is frustrating, especially when it gets you a rep of being difficult to deal with.

I was talking to OP and that shouldn't get you a rep of being difficult to deal with, you probably weren't being very respectful and nice about it and just kept saying the same thing over and over and not providing proof.

IT Engineer here, also been the "expert" in many meetings with clients and PM's This is pretty much exactly how it goes.

It is a metaphor, but somewhat ironically, what the expert should have been doing (or maybe the UX designer) is trying to figure out what it was exactly they wanted. They may not have had a 2D print requirement, they might have been using the wrong termonology (maybe they just meant intersecting, not perpendicular), or they might have otherwise had different hidden requirements.

Seemed pretty clear that the red line expert tried to figure out what they meant and was chastised for it

And if that happens then the expert should decide what they mean and then put it in writing.

He did ask what they imagined the final result would look like.

The guys who weren't the expert were the most at fault. Every time the expert would try and figure out what they wanted, they flipped it on him.

To be fair, it isnt really solvable in Euclidean 3-space. You really do need a curved geometry. The video above, while clever, doesnt consist of Euclidean straight lines.

Euclidean straight lines were not a requirement. Using Euclidean geometry was not a requirement.

No one said anything in that video other than 'perpendicular lines'.

From the poster above me

The problem is solvable using 3D space

Meurdin said said it could be done on the proper curved surface and he was right. Rogork said you only need to go to 3-space, which is not correct, you need a curved geometry (especially to get a kitten shaped line)

If we live in a 7-dimensional world, surely we could draw 7 lines simultaneously perpendicular to one another.

That video was giving an anxiety attack quarterway through...

I made it about a minute and a half in before I noped out. Ugh.

Finally I have a way to explain why I hated my last job.

At one point during my last job I had this exchange:

"What you're asking me to build is, well... it's impossible."

"Why's that?"

"In short, physics."

Oh people don't like getting told that

That hit too close to home for me to laugh...

My boss emailed me a todo list that made no sense I emailed this back

Hows the job search going?

His former boss is still looking.

Ahahaha too true.

This gave me Nam-style flashbacks

I have a rage headache now, thanks mate.

Good God, this feels like mondays....

watching that was painful because i have been in that meeting.

This would have been funny a couple of years ago before I started working in the real world. Now its just dancing the line between funny and depressing realism.

Edit: Thanks for posting though! I did enjoy it.

Oh my god. I felt his pain.

This video scares me so much. Thanks for the nightmares, Satan.

You can make seven lines all perpendicular to each other...you just need more dimensions.

This reminds me of the time I had to explain to my boss that css and php were not related and that I couldn't become a php expert in one afternoon.

Meh.. Php basics are simple enough. With Google and YouTube you can learn enough to SEEM like an expert in an afternoon, which is all the boss does anyway!

You definitely cannot learn how to program a commercially viable website in an afternoon. =)

Furthermore, what he wanted me to do was to rewrite a multilingual plugin we have for our website so that it would be compatible with the other plugins we were using. It should be noted that I was hired to write the CSS for this website and nothing else.

Very true. I was kind of joking, however a very similar situation is how I learned php. You should sit down and explore it a bit. Very simple and is actually one of my favorites now! I use it a lot now, both for web and for server interaction from mobile apps.

I'm actually learning php and I'm far enough along to know that the job he was asking of me was incredibly complex and nowhere near the level of a beginner. They just keep trying to expand my role. My company is actually the perfect example of why tech people should avoid startups founded by people who refuse to understand technology but choose to rely on it. It's basically "something has gone wrong involing a computer. You use a computer. You fix it!"

I couldn't agree more!

He's not much of an engineer if he didn't think of using 8 dimensions to draw 7 perpendicular lines.

Do u evn basis function, bro?

Edit - here's what 7 orthogonal lines look like.

[deleted]

Sure, but 8 would work as well.

Stop over-engineering bro

Needlessly inflating production costs, bro

Found the engineer

If you use 8 dimensions you can have a 2d kitten

Not to be pedantic, but that would the representation for 7 orthogonal lines. Unless you were an 7 dimensional being, I don't think you would be able to imagine what 7 dimensionally perpendicular lines would look like.

Yes, but why are you using purple ink? We need 2 red 2 green and 4 transparent!

I just went through something similiar. Customer calls up and the conversation starts "Where do we stand on the issues I can't reach my employee?" This is the first issue because he should be getting it from the employee but I explain that field1 and field2 are processing correctly but field3 does not exist in the data be transmitted to me. 20 minutes later he finally underatands. Then proceeds to ask me how do we fix it. I tell him he needs to go back to the source and find out why they are not transmitting the field. He says ok once they transmit can we bring it in. "Yes but this would be a modification and it will be charged." Customer says "no ill talk to my sales rep this was supposed to be part of the original spec." As a side note this program was written a year or more ago. I call sales rep and said this will be a chargeable modification or it won't get done. Conversation over.

Half way through the vídeo I was hitting my head on my pillow oh my god

As a programmer, I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

OH god. thats so painful because of how accurate it is. I've been in too many of those meetings.

Jesus, I'm studying to become a software engineer. These situations suddenly feel a lot more threatening. xD

I'm not even in the field yet and have already been getting experience with this. Partially from a class this last spring term (the professor actually acted as the client and was intentionally not communicating project requirements effectively), and partially from writing automation software as part of some research work I'm doing in the department (the graduate student I'm working under hasn't been communicating things very well and occasionally changes the requirements). And this stuff is relatively mild compared to what I'll be dealing with in the future.

In short, get used to it now ;)

Oh, I have internships every 4 months, so no doubt I'll get pushed into more situations like these, but it does NOT fill me with joy. :|

I'm certain you'd have to be a masochist to enjoy it.

Justine is adorable :3

Expert should have known to ask the right question. "Do the lines have to be straight?"

geometric lines are per definition straight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_%28geometry%29

Straight line is assumed but not a given. Especially with users.

sure, got it ☺

omg this describes my whole life! the reason why i almost ragequittet my university, the reason why i hate to wake up in the morning, the reason why i hate people, the reason why i want to be alone in a dark room and dont talk do anybody...

There's an upvote in his pocket at 3:22

Draw 4 lines with green ink, 3 with transparent, make them all intersect each other in a radial pattern, then, using Photoshop, alter the hue of the entire image so that the lines appear to be red.

BOOM.

I feel like I need a smoke after that

I remember watching when I rode into the drive in theater on my dinosaur.

As someone in my last year of mechanical engineering school who worked in the automotive industry before school.....fuck.

Pretty much me the last 3 weeks.

This made me actually mad. For real. This is my job.

Engineering student who has spent the last year working as a construction super:

Non tech people are right. Engineers have never learned how to play well with others, or look past a person's words to see what they really want. The majority are arrogant, antisocial, deeply egotistical and incapable of being a functioning member of a team. They are tools to be used and kept in isolation.

They spend so much time focusing on the minutia of numbers and technical details that they become incapable of also maintaining focus on the overall goal of the group. They fucking love to be technically right. It doesn't matter if their solution is useful to anyone - just as long as it is technically correct.

So did you read about the billion dollar disaster in the Panama extension project? Engineers care about their numbers and requirements for good reason.

Source is new Disney cartoon Gravity Falls. They're boy band clones, and only know words like "Word" and "lady".

Darn beautiful men. Always...always eating out of my garbage. Wait, what?

All voiced by Lance Bass

Not all. Matt Chapman from Homestar Runnner did some of their voices as well. He works on the show now.

You can really tell by the humor in the show that he's one of the writers. And he did the voice of the Hand Witch which sounds a lot like the Teen Girl Squad voices.

Hand Witch doesn't sound familiar... there must be new episodes I haven't seen yet!

I imagine that's some boy band guy who was in Nsync or something.

I don't think there's anyone else in the world who hated being in a boy band as much as he does, of course he'd do it.

"Girl you got me ackin' so cray cray" -- Sev'ral Timez

"Where's my girdle?" -Grunkle Stan

How manny times am I gonna love ya? Sev'ral Timez!

Can you really call it new when its been around for 3 years?

yeah but like 2 of those years are hiatus

Gravity falls fans have it the worst.

..........What? Wow.... wooow.

Newer than Mickey.

TWENTY THIRTEEEN!!!

It's new? It's already halfway through it's second season...

And in its third year...

"Excuse me, there’s a sign at Ramsett Park that says ‘Do not drink the sprinkler water,’ so I made sun tea with it, and now I have an infection.”

[deleted]

Good question! I use the Herp Derp for YouTube™ extension, which changes all youtube comments to just herps and derps, and nothing of value is lost.

is there one for reddit comments?

That would be a fun thing for an RES update. You could enable it on a subreddit-by-subreddit basis, and replace all comments with "Cat." like /r/CatsStandingUp or random comments pulled from /r/SubredditSimulator.

http://imgur.com/gallery/LyWZifO

Tap Tap Tap SEVRAL TIMEZ IS OVERRATED

How many times am I gonnna love ya?

SEV'RAL TIMEZ!

The glass is a pretty bad user interface by itself. Should really always come with a straw

[deleted]

And the users who are accustomed to drinking from the glass will complain that the new straw feature gets in the way and slows down drinking. Make sure you add functionality to remove the straw.

Should we decorate the straw in yellow and black diagonal stripes?

Ya but they'll have the drink.

They already have the drink.

Closed a bug that caused unreasonable bandwidth restrictions by removing that stupid straw introduced in the last patch. WTF were we thinking? There wasn't even ice in that glass.

Removal of straw ruined workflow, please add option back.

so... you mean us programmers can blame the designers for the users acting like that?

I don't generally use straws and would prefer that restaurants didn't give me a straw that I would then have to remove or poke myself with

I found an end user they're talking about.

They're everywhere.

/r/drinkingproblems

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVOUlNCJK2Y

I am literally watching this scene right now.

We all are. Most people tend to click youtube links when they're posted to see what the person wishes to put across.

Literally though?

I'm literally replying to your comment right now.

No way! I was totally just reading your comment a second ago.

Thats so crazy xD random LolollolllOlL

/r/drinkingproblems

/r/wheredidthesodago

Pretty sure it's from the music video Kill Your Heroes by Awolnation, but it does look like it could be something out of an infomercial.

https://youtu.be/L4MzF53je5M?t=2m47s

I loved that music video

Therefor, it's the job of the programmer to create the equivalent of this. That gives this as a result.

That's like an infomercial trying to sell crazy straws. "Have you ever had this happen to you? Don't let it happen again! With this crazy wacky drinking straw! Just 3 payments of $1.99 and it is yours!"

You don't need any special straw. You just need to kill your heroes and fly, fly, baby don't cry.

How end users view programmers

[deleted]

Manager: What about this corner case?

Dev: Why would anyone do that?!...yea you're right. People are stupid sometimes

Only 70%? You're a superstar mate.

30% is "where is that missing semicolon"

Eclipse would find it for you if it wasn't so busy crashing :(

Fuck eclipse. My company bought me IntelliJ so much better

Mine won't pay for it. Or for all the alcohol I need to be able to tolerate eclipse.

Our company is pretty spendy on employees. They pay for stand up desks for people who request them as well.

Ours requires a doc note for a permanent standing desk, though we do have a trial where you can book one for a day to see if you like it. Not that I would, we have sweet office chairs. But they won't budge on intelliJ

That sucks dude. Is it start up or big corporation?

Massive corp that probably loses more to rounding errors each day than they would if they got every dev intelliJ

If you're using Eclipse, I'm sorry.

"The bug happens when you have a Surname field that is over 720 characters and includes both a Unicode 'CAT VOMITING IN TOILET WHILE SMILING' emoticon, and at least six RTL/LTR markers in series."

"So... tell them not to do that!"

"Apparently it's how it used to work on their old system, and they really don't want to change their procedures."

This, after a few years of having faith in the end user you find its better to assume they are going to mash their faces into the keyboard. develop idiot proof interfaces from the start and save revisiting code while muttering "why did they even do that?"

I work in a small company and mostly get left alone to develop products our clients need. It's a rare programming environment but I'm thankful for it.

Anyways my boss is one of those never-reads-anything-clickety-click-motherfuckers, and he's also the kind of person where if he doesn't know what he's doing he'll recklessly try anyways. And if it blows up and eats itself he'll try 15 different ways to fix it. I've come into work in the morning to find random servers or individual services shut off because some completely unrelated feature in some unrelated piece of software didn't work.

Long story short is every piece of software I release that he might have a shot at touching or using I have to fool proof specifically for him. It's almost impossible to break most of the software I release these days and when I'm working on it 20 or 40% longer than I should be making sure he can't break it, he starts wondering, "What's taking so long?"

Uh just some final testing and stuff....

[deleted]

Tony Stark should have never left him on top of that building.

TONY STARK WAS ABLE TO BUILD THIS IN A CAVE

WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOhBAyxd-WY

Not sure why this is catchy and I came back to it but I did.

That movie would have been so much better if, instead of focusing on this guy, they stick to the Mandarin!

that hair looks greasy as fuck

https://i.imgflip.com/grfbg.jpg

RE-he-HEEEALLLY greasy.

That's the way of the road, Bubs

Where'd you find that picture of me. And while we're at it, where did you find that video of all the users I've dealt with.

You forgot to include pyjamas because I can't be bothered to give a fuck about ever going to the office

You know Dave?! Tell him I said hi.

End users' attitudes towards programmers is a lot like it is towards porn actors. They make fun of us but also want the product.

So are you a programmer or a pornstar?

Except the end user view programmers is wrong. The OP is spot on

I work near the Amazon HQ. Thats a fairly correct, if almost complimentary picture of how a majority of the employees look.

That's probably offensive.

Then you tell them how to drink from the glass correctly. The next day you come in and find they have managed to flip a glass of water and now they can't get it rightside up without spilling it.

As a programmer this is extremely accurate. I had one client send me an email about their "Update Profile" button not working. Well some Javascript had changed and a function call was being called to a function that didn't exist anymore. I told the client that I was currently on another project, and I would be able to fix their issue later that afternoon and have it deployed first thing tomorrow morning. Exactly 3 hours later I receive this:

Thanks for getting back to me, . I don't know what the problem could be. I've been clicking update profile ever hour since your last email and it's still not working. Should I keep trying to update my profile?

As a Jr. Sysadmin with only little programming experience I think this is relevant to the entire IT industry. I certainly feel this way about my end users on a daily basis...

The biggest problem is they get so worried whenever they do anything legitimate, even with me watching. They will hesitate at every step and expect a detailed explanation before proceeding, even at my direction to run Ninite and Update Windows. You'd think a user like that would take decades to download the tons of bloatware and malware I find after leaving them alone for an afternoon.

My biggest gripe is with people who don't fucking read anything. Hello is this IT? Yes, how can I help you. I've got this terrible virus on my windows that is counting down and I keep hitting cancel but it won't go away. I have INCREDIBLY important work on this machine and I cannot afford to lose it. I'm sorry to hear that, let me create a ticket... No, no, I don't have that kind of time, I need this fixed now. Click. ... 5min later I get a call from my boss. Hey you need to go help circle jerk right now so drop what you are doing. I rush over to the user only to find a Windows Update prompt on his screen. Oh SHIT! I exclaim! I get close to user so we can both see the screen, Let's read what this says... "Windows has finished installing updates to your PC, please reboot to complete the process." Well, sir, it looks like your PC needs to reboot. Click "Yes" and walk away. Call me back if the virus returns.

Oh god... as a CS major you guys are freaking me out... I don't want to work in support! Holy fuck..

Wouldn't a CS grad work as a programmer/sys admin/etc anyway?

231 people apply for 3 support positions. 71 of them have a CS degree. Looks like all 3 positions are filled by people with a degree.

As someone with a CS degree, I did indeed spend three years working support.

I doubt the demand for software engineers is low enough that that's a common scenario.

Put PHP on your resume, and you're hired within two weeks. No degree required.

And as it turns out, no programming skill required either, judging by our latest hires...

No, when I'm hiring a dev I hire someone who can do the job, not someone with a CS degree.

[deleted]

The intimation being he/she doesn't care if they even have a degree.

He/she just wants someone with experience.

Because of how awesome the job market is.

You shouldn't be working support if you graduate as a CS major. You don't need algos to restart someone's computer lol

What, you don't know about using Knoppendrukker's algorithm to determine whether the problem actually exists between keyboard and chair?

It has it rewards if you like working with the tech. I've been running my own Windows Domain at home with servers and all the features I can get my hands on. At some point in this career you should be moving forward and one way is to hopefully move away form end-user support. Once you do that you get to work on fun larger picture stuff.

The company I'm sponsored by has designated me to work in the information protection department, so hopefully I get to skip the end-user support

You might find some humor and worthwhile info in this presentation then... http://kernsec.org/files/lss2015/giant-bags-of-mostly-water.pdf

Good luck new blood, you'll be the helpdesk bitch for a while!

Oh lord..

Yep, let me know how you feel once you realize you should have gone to a more affordable Tech and spent your time/money learning shit on your own :) If you want to see the dark side of IT, go hang out in /r/sysadmin - "make sure you update your cv"

more affordable Tech

what do you mean?

Tech College, Community College, not a university :)

/r/talesfromtechsupport/

No, I'm not backing out of this CS major I'm working on.

They will hesitate at every step and expect a detailed explanation before proceeding, even at my direction to run Ninite and Update Windows.

I hate these. I always think in my head (and wish I could say), "look, either you just trust me that it will work because that's what I get paid to do, or I explain the finer details of problem X while your eyes glaze over and we both waste 30 more seconds."

The biggest problem is they get so worried whenever they do anything legitimate, even with me watching. They will hesitate at every step and expect a detailed explanation before proceeding, even at my direction to run Ninite and Update Windows. You'd think a user like that would take decades to download the tons of bloatware and malware I find after leaving them alone for an afternoon.

I've never seen this put better.

It's funny, because this is also how security see most programmers.

"But I clicked all the defaults generating a self-signed cert and stored all the passwords using md5!!!11one".

... and all security pukes want to do is make something as unusable as possible and create situations where the users write down userid & password information. The least realistic people in IT.

Not at all true. Industry wide security requires usability, as unusable controls breed bad user practices. It's a foundation point of all Certifications.

is that why pgp is basically just one click? /s

Isn't PGP a piece of software? It didn't write itself...

I've been retired for a number of years - however, I was there "at the beginning". In the beginning many, many mistakes were made by people who were just making it up (badly). My recent observations from the 'outside' indicate that there are some who are still making it up - even in the face of best practices. Be well.

People who forget the past are destined to repeat it. There is a reason we have the current security posture, however people forget it because it "gets in the way"

Yep. Oh, the new system requires numbers and special symbols in my password, and I have to update it every month? Guess what's getting written down on a piece of paper not-so-cleverly hidden under my keyboard.

Bonus: if I fail to do this, and inevitably forget my password and need to reset it, it asks me a bunch of "security questions", like my mother's maiden name, elementary school, the name of my best friend or first pet... and other things that are easily found on most people's Facebook accounts if you dig deep enough.

Come up with one you'll remember and just iterate the number. Not the safest practice, but safer than having it on a post it

Many systems won't allow you to have your new password be too similar to your previous password either.

Well that is a bitch.

That's exactly why I type in random crap. I really hate those generated questions.

Bitch, let me ask myself, "What was that stupid thing your bestfriend asked that pizza chick?"

Or, "How much do you hate retail?"

Or even better, "The correct answer to animu is?"

Shit man, NO ONE BUT ME, will know those fucking answers, and being that I think I'm hilarious, I'll remember them.

I just have static passwords I remember.

doesnt matter what the question is, the answer is always:

mothers maiden name: password1

childhood pet: password2

street you were raised on: password3

Why would a programmer need to generate and apply a cert that's relevant to the security of an environment? Maybe on a dev system for testing purposes but nothing that's public facing. That's ops side.

Yes. In fact, you should start swapping out whatever bits of hardware on your machine that you can and keep trying.

Change the color of the button then say:

I found the problem, you needed to be pressing the green button.

That's ... well, it's fairly clear your user just didn't read your message.

Learn to unit test

Remember, there are only two occupations that refer to their customers as users.

Programmers and your mum

Users and customers are generally two different things and are only the same when talking about free software distributed directly by the programmer. For the vast majority of software, users are not the customers of the programmer. It's also a LOT of occupations that refer to users. Mack as an example have users driving and/or riding the trucks, or even loading/unloading it for that matter, but the customer is the company that employes those users. Or we can example from say Google. The users are the ones using the searchengine. But their customers are the companies buying ads to show those users. I could go on forever about this.

[deleted]

Indeed. But as you say, that's when it's distributed directly from the programmer to the user. Only then is the user and customer the same, but that's actually not as common as when sold with companies or other people in between, in which case it's not the same.

"Maybe if we get our IT department to start thinking of users as 'customers' they will start treating them better!"

Only if 'customers' start generating commissions. Or they will get the same level of service as any other non-commission based sales positions like Burger King and CVS.

Dude, the IT department is already seen as a bottomless expense pit. Adding commissions to CAPEX and OPEX is a pipe dream.

In my experience, its always the people that decide if you get a billing code that are customers.

Work in corporate IT, still always Users. Always users. Users, and 'The Business'.

Never customers, sometimes staff.

In my company it's in this hierarchy:

  1. The Business (During showstoppers or business changers)
  2. Executives
  3. Users

We only refer to users as customers aloud when talking in about our SLA. And we do technically think of them as customers, but it's inferred, never really said aloud.

Mostly worked in a lot of partnerships myself so there's no real difference in 'executive' and user most of the time. There is support staff and everyone else.

Personally, I hate to think about them as customers, because it infers a strange hierarchy. We're not here to make money, we're here to make sure they can.

But you're right talking about it from an SLA standpoint, because SLA's are agreed to externally often, so in the case of departmental funding (more people = better SLA's), they get what they pay for.

really? as a programmer I view the IT department of the company i'm working for as the end-user, because they are in charge of deploying and monitoring the software that I design. They have knowledge of hardware systems, and using management and analytical software, but I've never seen an IT guy working on a software project. Maybe it means different things in different places?

Your customers are the ones using the software, the IT department's (help desk is what most people mean when they say that) customers are the people that are using their services, e.g. you.

If you're talking about IT operations, they are like the logistics team for a company, not your users or customers, they facilitate getting your product to the customer or end user.

no, I make software that IT people use.

As a web dev, my users are usually my customer's customers.

Drug dealers? (Seriously. I'm trying to figure out the other one.)

programmer, silly goose

edit: probably should include all information tech

IT here. I call all of the folks at my job 'users' - hell, I make them give me their PC name instead of their own name 95% of the time.

Do they actually know where to find it? Or is it just written on a label on their PC or something?

I label it on their PC tower.

They'll manage to lose that because 'I didn't like the way it looked' or 'i didn't think it was important' or 'I was hungry'

Yes, drug dealers and my point was a joke. Who cares who pays; who ever 'uses' the software is the user.

Because sometimes customers are not the users.

Users aren't really the same as customers. If you are contracted to make a program for a company, then the people who use that program are users but they are not your customers. They would be the company's customers though.

I get what you're trying to say, but you're so fucking wrong.

I have to spend almost every working hour of my day advocating for the user as opposed to the customer - I work for a digital media company, where our customers are advertisers, and our users are just regular joes and janes wanting to read our content.

I love our users, and want to give them the best experience possible. Our customers make that very difficult.

I know exactly what you mean.

My users are technically my coworkers (in that we work for the same company). I do my very best to make sure that my users have the best possible tool to help them do their job efficiently and easily. Our company is much more interested in, well... I'm not sure.

Suffice to say, I'm getting migraines.

I'm not sure of your point but most of the times, users aren't the customers of the programmers, at least not directly. The software that I build are bought by companies, the users are their employees. Same goes for most contracted work, where some time the users are the customers to the company but not your customers, often, the users are only potential customers.

Customer and user are distinct concepts - e.g. you're not facebook's customer: you're its product.

Customer - Client - User, Go!

Is Tron one of them? Is it real?

A programmers customer is not his user...

What are you supposed to call them? You need to have rows in your database to represent the people that 'use' your application. Are you going to call the table 'people'? That's a poor name because the 'people' you're representing might not use the site. The 'people' table could be something like an address book. If you call the table 'users' it's extremely obvious what the data in it represents

Programmers and tech support?

/r/gravityfalls

You mean QA.

As QA, myself, I don't see the users this way mostly because our support team does a really good job of filtering out stuff like this. Most of the requests or changes that get assigned to my team seem like good ideas and actually make the company more money in the long run.

Ex-QA, now SDET/SDE depending on the day here - I didn't view users as stupid when I was in QA, because most of my job was to think like them and assuming stupidity meant I missed most of my test cases.

Now, most of my users are fellow devs, and I think of them as stupid...

Okay, only some of them. But those ones take up the vast majority of my time. =/

I'm pretty sure he meant that is how Devs view QA, not how QA views customers.

Oh, yeah... Toxic shops can be like that. I had suppressed those interactions.

Coincidentally, thats how infrastructure people view developers...

I had to scroll down way too far to find this. Most of the developers I have to interact with may be geniuses at drinking out of a glass, but ask them to do ANYTHING ELSE it's nothing but issues.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN USING LFTP TO INITIATE AN SFTP TRANSFER IS LESS EFFICIENT THAN JUST USING SFTP?

(Thats what I had to deal with this week...)

WHY CANT YOU MAKE OUR RUBY ON RAILS APP SCALE AND NOT CRASH. THE PLATFORM YOU BUILT FOR US ISN'T STABLE. IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT.

Coincidentally, that's how everybody else feels about both of you while you sit around blaming each other for a problem based on bullshit unresearched assumptions and neither one will actually look into it without somebody having to force you into it. 8 hours later it turns out one of your groups changed something after spending 7 hours with crossed arms claiming it had to be the other guy because "we didnt change anything and it worked fine yesterday". You'd all save yourselves and everybody else a lot of time if you'd just assume your shit is probably broken from the start and quit worrying about how dumb the other guy is.

[deleted]

When I worked there we still had to take orders by hand, shit must be a blessing to not have to interact with people in the deli area now.

[deleted]

One of the ones I go to doesn't. Sure, they'll talk to you if you ask them a question, or they see you all the time. But otherwise, nope. And they're easily the best Wawa I've been too in a twenty mile radius of my house. You order something, it's ready in five minutes or less, parring them being stupidly busy.

In fairness, there are actual cases where this is (rightfully) so, or distressingly near enough to justify it.

They still need to take more goddamn technical writing courses, though, or absorb more on average from the ones they do. It is not sufficient to merely become conversant in corporate forms of memos, executive summaries, and other industry form communication standards, although this is clearly an advantage in many potential careers for them, and other computer related fields.

I've had people ask me how to save. The save button has been in the same place and in the same format for TWENTY GODDAMN YEARS.

I put a cd in the tray but it didn't save you said to click on the disc but the mouse won't go off the monitor and if i close the tray i can't see it to click it ugh why did you make this so hard

To be fair, i once watched an end user try to drink water and he drowned.

I bet watching him/her drown was the highlight of your Christmas.

It was the closest to human contact I've ever come across.

No, I don't view them like that. I constantly watch them use the systems and do that. There is a difference.

I literally created a site with a search box and a button saying search. I received a complaint saying "All I want is a box for me to type in the item I'm looking for". Followed up with the complaint, and the user didn't realize you could type in the box because I had rounded the corners, and apparently boxes that you type in should be square.

Are you sure it wasn't just bad UI? In my experience in game dev, the ones who do the most programming have no idea how to visually organize interface objects to make them intuitive.

for true. It's not intentional, it's just that the further away you get from interacting directly with the users, the less you are able to think like the customer. This is how you get quest flows that make sense to the designer on paper but are 3 levels of fucky when it goes through QA who are ultimately ignored because "what do they know they're hourly" and when the questline goes live, CS has to prove that yes, this is confusing users and yes they can't complete these quests. And then because it's already live and would require a client update to fix, they just have CS manually fix everything with CS-Brand Bandaids because they're not doing client updates for the game anymore and they no longer support android. When the company meeting comes around, the game is praised as being so awesome and making tons of money- thanks everyone except CS and QA.

/rant I'm on my last 2 weeks of this bullshit

I recently watched my dad do the following:

  1. Open Chrome
  2. Type "google" in to the address bar
  3. Click the link for Google.com in the search results from google
  4. In the search box in google type in Yahoo
  5. Click on the link for Yahoo.com in the search results.
  6. Open his Yahoo.com email.

I was left really honestly trying to figure out if it was possible to take more steps to do something so basic.

Challenge Accepted:

  1. Open Chrome

  2. Type google in the address bar

  3. Click Google.com

  4. Search Ask.com

  5. Click Ask.com

  6. Search "Where is Yahoo Email"

  7. Open Yahoo.com

  8. Access Yahoo email

There are even longer ways to do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr3bWDBWnPE

Could've used yahoo search to search yahoo mail

I saw my teacher search "google" in the chrome omnibox, click on google, and then search about parosmia

He's got a point though. You turned the box into a bar. We don't typically type in bars. There's a lot of quirks to UXD on the subconscious level that we don't normally think about just ingrained into human nature.

[deleted]

That box has a small inset shade, 'search...' is written inside it alongside an icon, and perhaps most importantly its white stands out from the gray background. I would say without further knowledge of the original UX we can't tell if it looked typable.

I know the glass image is meant to be funny, but the truth is that end users will always use an object or program in the way its affordability design made them too. The problem more often than not are not glasses with an opening where the user doesn't drink from... but something that looks like an opening, with instructions that nobody reads saying "drink from elsewhere". That's when the "dumb user" (really just a user who has other things to think about) will drink from the supposed wrong end... which is really the right one, except the UI designer messed up.

Yall muthafuckas need Material UI.

Yup. If you are designing an interface and aren't considering how a person will interact with it who has zero knowledge of how the system works, you're going to run into these problems. You don't necessarily have to design around all these problems, but you need to be aware of them and consider them.

You mean Bootstrap is wrong? Shit. Someone better tell every mobile site ever.

ingrained into human nature

Bull. Shit. People just don't two f'n seconds to look at the screen, read it, and maybe make an "educated" guess.

I agree it shouldn't be that hard, but if you are designing a program for the general public they shouldn't have to read anything or guess about anything. It should be intuitive, simple, and so easy a toddler could use it.

Why?

Seriously, why? Computers are tools, and most tools need proper education. Computers are one of the most complex tools ever, and yet people expect it to be a cakewalk.

No, sometimes you have to learn something. There isn't and never will be an interface that's 'intuitive' for all, or even most. That also has connections to learning and data modeling, because we all think, interact, and learn in different ways.

I'd rather use a piece of software with an opinion, and learn their way, than the tripe that passes as 'user friendly'. All that tends to mean these days is an idiot can, in theory and with enough patience, get something done.

I'd rather excise lazy users who want to be spoonfed.

I said "designing for the general public" these tools are used by everyone from today from age 2-102 by people of all nations and levels of education and no, they don't require special education for basic use. They are part of everyday life and as such most programs should be 'user friendly' and easy to use. Its not about laziness at all. Its about equal access. I don't really understand your defensiveness and anger unless you are a programmer who recently got this criticizim. If its built for advanced use or open sourced, fine built it however you want, but if its for the general public and a wide user base, make it simple to use, that's just common sense.

Well, that's what UXD is all about. Interfaces should be intuitive, the user shouldn't have to think about it.

UX is all about giving something to do for douchebags who can't code and also can't manage people.

I think the real question here is, how old is that user? I doubt anyone born '85+ is going to have that problem

After reading you're comment, I immediately looked at reddit's search bar in the top right which has rounded corners.

On a large game I worked on we had a tutorial dialog that flashed above the player's avatar in game that said "Press Spacebar to Jump" and below the text was a picture of a Spacebar being pressed. This stayed on the screen, taking up a decent portion of the screen until the player pressed the Spacebar. I watched a kid walk around for a full couple of minutes wondering what to do, having trouble running around because he had trouble being able to see with the tutorial window blocking his view.

It's funny, because then the programmers design a product with no mindfulness of how the product will be used and nobody can use it right because it's utterly intuitive.. Once worked for a company who had their backend IT progamming guys build a softphone for the company. The mute button was an enigma to them. It was buried deep, it didn't always mute "by design", and you had to click and hold it. Nevermind what else you were doing, but the developers were adamant that it was desirable behavior despite being told, by the people they were developing it to be used by, otherwise.

One time I was working on an ecommerce site build that was mostly being managed by programmers. They had added a button called "nevermind" that appeared on the credit card details page. "Nevermind" clears out everything you've added to the cart, and sends you back to the homepage.

I don't fucking even.

Am a programmer. This makes sense to me. Oh god, I'm part of the problem.

Exactly, they were like "oh, it'll be 'nevermind,' because that's like , nevermind I don't want any of that" when to a bystander it's "nevermind I don't want to pay this way/right now/at all/etc"

The position on the page actually made it not that ambiguous of a function, but the problem is that it's a site trying to make money, and actively inviting people to just give up and leave is crazy.

It's like building an extra door in your store and putting a sign that says "You could probably just find all this shit at Wal-Mart anyway. Thanks."

See I didn't even think of that, we are part of the problem. The whole point is to make sales now isn't it, no reason to make it so easy to Nope out of a sale.

Exactly- actually I've read that trying to build something and trying to plan what something should be... is really hard. And should be handled by separate people, even if those two people have identical skillsets.

I know I had a similar thing happen to me, I'm a beginner at programming and was making a simple routine to chug out a bunch of product descriptions on another ecommerce site.

I was like, yeah!! I'm done! ...And realized the program didn't have anything set up for creating HTML tags with it. Fuck lol. I would never forget that normally.

"Keep shopping" is a better button

With a different function.

Same here! Nevermind is like fuck it, I don't care about the stuff I already have in my cart just get rid of it and put me in the homepage. Makes perfect sense if I already know what it's supposed to do. But I would be pissed if I clicked a button out of curiosity and ended up deleting everything in my cart.

To be fair, when you're in the middle of paying money for something, you generally shouldn't be clicking things you don't understand out of curiosity. That's how Paypal Credit gets you.

But it's on a site that's trying to make money- It's basically going to get 10% of people who are sorta-frustrated finding their shit, to just be like "Yeah, you're right, website. Fuck all of this. I won't shop here." so it's actually a frighteningly bad anti-feature. Chutes instead of ladders.

You should probably work for a company that hires better programmers. Either that or it was the idea of someone higher up in the company.

No, the company should hire a UI/UX designer, instead of expecting programmers to be experts in 5 different fields.

Most likely the reason for that button was to make it faster/easier for them to do testing.

This exactly. I majored in CSCI in college, but originally I majored in web design with an emphasis on graphic design and usability. Anyone with any experience in either should know they are two completely different skill sets. Hybrids who have mastered both of these skill sets are not very common.

UX is made up. There's no science behind it.

Not even close to true. I've studied it, and read research papers. It's no more made up than any other science.

Well, it's probably a bit more made up than say, physics.

It's all finding ways to model and describe observations. Physics has had a few thousands of years head start, to come up with it's own notation and empirical evidence.

Still "made up" though, the knowledge wasn't delivered to us from on high.

...Either that or it was the idea of someone higher up in the company.

You hit the nail on the head. If there's anything that doesn't make sense to the user, it usually makes sense to the user's "manager" (At any level, Operations Manager, Director, VP, etc).

These "Ideas" and "Questions" usually pop up during pre-deployment preparation meetings where business representatives (Usually Directors) are invited to take a look at a new product/implementation.

That's totally a feature.

I guarantee it was because somebody above your pay grade said

I don't like this mute button. My list phone hid it so you don't accidentally mute yourself. And you had to hold it. I liked that.

The chief problem with us programmers is given the option between making the task that will be done 99% of the time easy and the task that will be done 1% of the time impossible vs making the thing done 99% of the time hard and the thing that will be done 1% of the time possible, we pick the latter every time.

and nobody can use it right because it's utterly intuitive.

I think you meant "unintuitive" (even if Firefox says that's not a word SHUT UP MOZILLA)

See, that problem exists for a reason that you can figure out right from your sentence:

the programmers design a product

If you want someone to design your product well, you should probably hire a designer.

Knowing how to make software that is functional and efficient and knowing how to make things people like are two very different knowledge domains, and while some people are experts in both, you can't assume that.

You don't hire a baker to build your house and get upset when it's made out of gingerbread.

their backend IT progamming guys build a softphone

What do you mean by "build"?

Half the time it means we bought a $99 license to software that let us brand it that was written by a 16 year old in his garage and we don't have the source code and that kid stopped programming and moved to Syria 8 years ago.

It takes a genius to make something that even the stupid can understand

Where is this from?

Gravity Falls, a show on Disney XD. The guys here are a boy band called Sevral Timez.

I should watch Gravity Falls.

EDIT: It appears I know what I am going to be doing Labor Day!

You should. It's pretty good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAqBo8eIVkU&feature=iv&src_vid=artNshOOAh8&annotation_id=annotation_1622602317

it gets good by the end of the first season.

watch

promo

starter guide

God yes. New episode tommorow!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsRTtjqmn0I

This is how I view 99% of people around me and that approach has always benefited me.

[deleted]

Yep, I'm sure I agree to those terms and conditions check

They don't hold much if any legal power. It is assumed a reasonable person knows it won't be read by most people, so it's not adequate disclosure

I work in retail and this is an accurate representation of some of our customers.

This should have been titled, "How end users really are."

[deleted]

How many times are we gonna have to see this before it runs its course?

At least 33

I think those are in the category called "Super Users" and in some areas "Power Users".

He has successfully identified the container with the content he wishes to access, and despite his feeble abilities he attacks the problem from many different angles. Most ordinary users have no idea of either container or content. While it is obvious for the programmer that the content needs to be accessed from the top and can be distributed by leveling the container, even most advanced users have no grasp of those concepts and see them as abstract and confusing. The programmers superior mind however, see immediately that although only from the top, there are still an infinite number of angles, and for leveling, certain angles at certain speeds suit different circumstances best.

If you saw this too, you should probably be a programmer if you aren't already, unless of course what you do now is somehow better because you can excel among inferior minds.

Somehow, including a manual only makes it worse.

We only ever have a budget for a manual on the 1.0 version past that, the user is on their own, but we leave the 1.0 version published to give them steps to hopefully frustrate them to the point they're too tired to call.

That is how I view the family members who ask me to "fix" their computers.

Love me some /r/gravityfalls!

No, that's not true.

This is how tech-support, sysadmins, DBAs, network technicians AND programmers view end-users.

Oh this joke again?

This gif with this title..again

It's the circle of Reddit. It will make it's way through all of the other social media sites and we'll see it on the front page next week.

[deleted]

It's amazing what you can find out with JS screen capturing services. People were clicking on shit that's not a link, phone numbers into the email input, retrying account registration repeatedly despite the same error message every time for an existing account they could log in to, blindly press submit on a payment form wall.. ugh.

JS screen capturing services

Can you recommend one?

When I was in school all of my profs that taught anything to do with some sort of programming (C, PLC logic or otherwise) came right out and told us "You should assume the end user is a complete moron and design accordingly. Idiot proof all of the software you create."

Makes a good point. To test each others software for bugs we would try to break it.

Most of my bad end user stories have to do with people deathly afraid of their computer. I've seen people convinced their laptop will explode if they touch the wrong key on the keyboard. Then they need extensive training on minor version changes of any program.

I'm not really a programmer and that's how I view end users.

If you make something idiot proof, someone will just make a better idiot.

This is how IT views everyone else.

Hell, I do excel worksheets and it's exactly the same. My boss's boss's boss came the other day just to tell me the terms used in my tracker were not clear enough. Totally see your point here chief, problem is, these are the ones you force down on us and ask us to use on a daily basis.

This is exactly why programmers need guidance when they are working on a project or it will wind up as something they alone understand and the user base will be fucked.

Ugh. Had a supervisor who thought he was a programmer tell me "we have to trust that the users are not total idiots". No. No, we don't.

Programmer for a hospital group here, can confirm.

Yeah but who would ever use it like that?

"Yeah, but who would ever use it like that?" Asked the new recruit, eyes curious and shining bright with the optimism of an unknowing child.

'he'll learn' I thought to myself as I put my focus back on my screen, coding my eight-thousandth "are you sure you want to " pop up.

Actually I'm thankful for that sometimes because sometimes I misclick because I'm not always sitting bolt upright in front of a desktop with a mouse and 100% of my attention on the computer screen. I'm using a trackpad or a phone or something and eating or I just was thinking about something else. Or I'm legit new to the program (because as a Mac user, student and then working in universities I've never used outlook before, or I've never used Adobe CS or whatever). So just know that your efforts are not wasted and that those prompts are not only used by idiots.

I envy those who have never had a trackpad register a click that was never intended.

Relevant xkcd

Goddammit this just killed me. I've been laughing for ten minutes now. You just made my day

It was a bug, but 3 customers are using it as their main use case now, so don't fix it, even if someone in support marks it as a bug.

It's really hard to see how someone could not know how it worked when you built it from scratch and designed all the functionality.

It's kind of like when you write an essay and skip a whole concept because it was in your brain, but you didn't notice you never actually out it on paper.

Can confirm; am end user.

I don't see anything wrong with this.

As a sys admin, same view. Maybe a bit more head banging on table.

Agreed. Although as a sys admin, this is more how I view programmers!

I tend to view the programmers that way as well.

...they're not wrong.

Source: worked in tech support for too long.

Rightly so, based off of many google play reviews

They should look at them as job security.

[deleted]

There are times when there are even instructions and no one reads them though.

And it's a good thing too because I know nothing about computers, except turn it off and on again.

This glass is clearly broken. It worked fine yesterday

Upboated for gravity falls.

Yes, and this is the reason us UI/UX designers are brought into projects to fix the usual mess that is a developer-driven design.

As a programmer, I would say this is how we view upper management.

This would have far different implication if the BRAZZERS logo was placed in the bottom right corner.

Also how Retail workers view customers.

I do Software Quality Assurance

Programmers actually view their users as literally them. As a QA Engineer, that's how I view the users.

And trust me when I say, I always manage to overestimate their abilities.

It would be easier for the users to know where to put their lips if the user interface did not resemble a closed sphere.

I'm not a programmer at all, but honestly sometimes I think this is about right. I work at a college and have to walk parents on the phone through making payments on our online system. It's me telling them over and over again to click a green button on the first page they go after logging in while they are clicking around absolutely everywhere all the while bitching they need to make a payment while they ignore me answering their question.

As an IT Tech/Developer, I'll just make one small alteration to your title...

~~How programmers view~~ End users..

http://media.giphy.com/media/dydoObuQUDpfO/giphy.gif

That might even be worse since the end user will resort to that method every time, simply because it works.

It's not so much that we view all end users like this. But we know these users are out there and we have to design with them in mind as well

You can tell this is a programmer's petty fantasy because all of those water glasses are bug-free.

He has a drinking problem.

More like a problem drinking

Not just programmers. My first rule of troubleshooting is that every user is an idiot

Not really. At least not the average user, but programmers have to design their code to handle all situations because it's inevitable that there's a fuckwit that misuses your product.

Relevant

[deleted]

Surely there must be worse out there though.

As a person who works retail... I can confirm this is how most people are in reality.

A lot of programmers suck at programming. This is coming from a person that has to support these retards trying to use the program and failing at it.

Gravity Falls it's just one of those shows that I surprisingly enjoyed due to the wackyness :)

Grappling Hook.

End users are stupid. They fuck everything up.

No offence to any end users here...

[deleted]

most recent is 2 months, under a different subreddit and for a different reason. I hope people don't really get upset about this being a "repost."

Being old makes it a good post? Wow, you''l love this.

That is not what I said.

Lol DAE le repost?

That's how socially capable people view programmers!

yea users are always breaking everything

To be fair we are taught to view end users like this to make our programming much better.

For the most part they are right.

But look how they all got strong.

This is how Blizzard view new players to Hearthstone too...

. this is so true it makes me think about Tuesday already. fuck no im not going back this time!

I think the GIF is actually how end users use your finished product.

The image wasn't accurate?

Sure, the people who complain seem like idiots (and many probably are) but then there's the question of what the end user wants the program to do vs what the programmer thinks the end user should want...

How anyone in an IT related position views end users.*

FTFY

Needs more GUI.

Not just programmers, but any and all IT staff view end user's like this.

Source, work in IT.

Especially of antivirus software.

I'm thirsty.

Thirsty ass bitches or complete morons?

I think that's what caused my drinking problem

As they should

Seems legit.

It is also how we see managers.

"How doctors view patients"

or, "How end users use idiot-proof software"

more like how end users view programmers the stupid nerds

No mention of homestarrunner's VA voicing said characters?

What show is this?

Also how designers view engineers.

r/gravityfalls is leaking 0_0

With some of the collosall fuck ups I have seen in the software I support...it is how I (and some customers) see the programmers!

/r/DrinkingProblems

And QA.

True story

what's an end user

What is this clip from?

Gravity Falls, a cartoon on Disney XD. It's from the episode Boyz Crazy, and the guys in this gif specifically are a boy band made up of clones.

WTF!?

They pretty much had to use guys for that scene

Programmers without user experience build shitty stuff.

Gravity Falls, man. My heart hurts.

Also how sysadmins view programmers. -sysadmin

/r/GravityFalls is leaking again!!! Ahhh!

sure make my finished product-using ass feel stupid...:'(

Why would you fix the crack at the bottom?! That's where I drink from. At least give me an option to reenable the crack.

As someone who has been offering general IT assistance to friends and family, that's how I view the end users.

How ops people view programmers

That's pretty much how QA sees engineering. Unless it's paint by numbers, they're pretty useless for figuring anything out.

;o) (Friendly profession jab...we're all cool here.)

I think the same could be said about programmers. I studied programming at college, so I have a fairly basic knowledge about programming and feasibility studies. Well I was recently seconded to a job I volunteered for and used their "new" software. I say new it's about 5 years old which isn't that old since programs are meant to last a lot longer than that for its specific purpose. Anyway whoever designed this system must have been two trainees and a chimpanze. The system needed you to enter the account number EVERY freakin time you had to do something. Who the fuck programs like that??? Have a level entry system and then once you enter in the account number you should have free access to the system. Hell no, you have to work for your cheese. Enter in the account number every freaking time, and don't forget to save before you exit or everything will be lost...but before you save make sure you enter in everything before you save or it will send out a letter everytime you save. WTF!!!!

This is the greasiest analogy I have ever seen.

Why does he have different hair every time?

Then the user calls support "my pizza has a virus need help immediately!"

#dicktoobomb

There might be some condensation on their glasses.

Confirmed footage of my diamond dogs.

They're not wrong.

Accurate

No, that's how we know our UAT/QA/PM's to be.

One of the little fun facts that helps me get through the day is this:

The IQ scale is a constantly readjusting bell curve where an IQ of 100 is defined as perfectly average. That being said. That means nearly half the population has an IQ of less than 100. It's easier to understand and manage the stupidity of others when you assume that 50% of the people you talk to every day are morons.

Had a friend one day I shit you not, confess that she was concerned her boyfriend was cheating on her... because his email was always full with emails from sexy local singles. I thought it was a joke, i guess she had just literally never used the internet.

Perfect gif to illustrate a drinking problem

So I drink my water this way, what's wrong with that?

People in infomercials be like

I.... I don't get it.

Haha, silly front end users, thinking you're not exactly like that.

you somehow made a worse joke than the episode this was taken from

That's how everyone views end users.

Odd that's also how hardware guys see programmers

Thank you programmers. I'd be the guy dying of thirst

Title should be something like "Who programmers have to design their shit for because it's 95% of end users."

The guy has a drinking problem.

Honestly, yes

as someone trying to learn programming with zero computer experience, I feel like this gif is an eerily accurate resemblance

That's not how they are seen, that's how they fucking act.

but it's true.

Dude just has a drinking problem.

Oh it's not just engineers, it's the entire product design team

For more you can check out: http://uxreactions.com/

Accurate description of users

Repost. With the exact same caption.

I dont get it

Solution IRL: Agree to their requests, do whatever you want and take their money.

So, what's your point?

AKA How sysadmins view programmers.

this was not even remotley funny

Also how operations view developers.

It's true gotta spoon feed it to them. God forbid you make any significant changes.

Nah that's not end users, they can put water in a glass.

Can't stop laughing after seeing this amazing art LOL Keep it up

This is accurate.

They think they are alcoholic?

Haha..it's true, coming from a non-programmer

How women view programmers

So design poor unintuitive software and then blame the customer? OK then.

The problem is that what you call unintuitive might make perfect sense to a software developer. Software developers take classes on logic and are good at their job for being able to think in a certain way that others do not. But the software they make must be made for people who might not think this way, like a writer. So, in order for developers to make "intuitive" software, they must assume that the end user is very, very stupid.

Source: Am a software engineer.

/r/gravityfalls is leaking...

Why is it that of all professions, it is IT developers that tend to have this mentality more than any other?

I just can't imagine some doctor having a condescending laugh with "this guy came into my surgery the other day, and he didn't even realise he had hepatitis B!"

You obviously haven't worked in IT and been asked to move a mouse to the other side of the desk. And it was wireless. And they didn't want right and left click reversed.

Yes, there are people that inept. And we deal with that and worse on a daily basis.

We're also damned if we do, and damned if we don't. System is down? "Why aren't you guys doing your job?" System is running efficiently and redundantly? "What do you guys do here anyway? Do you even do any work?"

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The inability to distinguish between the average user referred to in OP's post, and the obviously extreme case you're referring to.

I think a more apt comparison would be people trying to self medicate a brain tumor with some herbal remedy they saw in a youtube vid. Then I can see them having a condescending laugh.

me as an programmer can confirm: you guys are idiots!

good - simplification is good

if it was up to programmers we would all be using command line, and arbitrary codes

You mean how bad programmers view end users.

As a programming student I just wish Visual Studio Express 2015 would download properly so I could do my classwork.

This is how my tech team view the customers. Sadly listening to some calls I have to agree that's what they must be like.

I do development and sometimes help out with tech/QA/support and this is pretty much how we see end users.

Relevant xkcd

It's not the user's fault your program is hard to use.

Fixed that title for you...

How ^good programmers view end users..

Because of course they will have an inexplicable need to press "F" 5 times and then "Ctrl+alt+esc" and break the system.. better spend the afternoon writing the error page and creating "Are you sure?" pop-ups.

What end users actually look like.

So you just took the origonal post, and made it a comment...really?

No.

I'm just saying, you could have atleast tried.

It's problematical that many programmers haven't a better literary background to write technical text that scans better for users. What technical writing is a joy to read as well as the best writing of the great authors of literary works?

That's kind of how end users view programmers too.

We're not wrong.

As a programmer, this is the extremely arrogant view that keeps most developers from rising above their entry level job. Developers keep blaming others instead of the crap not well thought out user experience they rushed out the door.

No..those are just blonds

These cartoons are always drawn up and subsequently commented on by people that think they know IT but really don't.

Programmers know nothing of how the software is intended to be used. They just know how to write code to the instructions they're given.

How end users view programmers but throw in a usual overtone of not understanding how to design software in a way that the end user will actually find efficienct.

How i view users. Oh the idiots I run into daily... Its tiring to say the least.

And that's how you get Windows/Linux.

Take a different view, slightly more positive view and you get Mac OS X.

That's OK. You really don't want to see how we view programmers. Especially stuck up ones who post shit like this.