Is Toji being inside Shinji's dream train foreshadowing of human instrumentality?
Local Link | Content link | Reddit Link
r/evangelionu/maxkmiller (1374)

Comments (31)

Episode 19: A Man's Battle aka Introjection

Toji lays in a hospital bed across from Shinji after the destruction of Eva 03. He dozes off and witnesses Shinji and Rei conversing in the "dream train" we've grown so accustomed to seeing inside Shinji's psyche.

Does this imply there is already some sort of melding of AT-fields, that they are already beginning to share those spaces we see as "dream realms" because their souls can be one? Do the Evas create a special bond between pilots?

Usually this kind of sequence only takes place in Shinji's mind, but we now see a conscious Toji, who seems grounded enough to even comment "this is weird."

Shinji even speaks to Rei as if it was still only his dream, not inside Toji's head. Yet Toji looks on and hears everything.

Thoughts?

Damn i should rewatch the anime i completely forgot this even happened

It's such a brief, almost throwaway scene, it took multiple rewatches for me to even give it a second thought

I think some kind of link due to the Evas and manipulation of their AT fields makes the most sense. Super interesting stuff!

It's just one episode before Shinji's pseudo-Instrumentality when he is absorbed by EVA-01. Not a stretch to say Anno was thinking about how exactly the ending was going to play out at this point.

I always thought of this as a sort of "angel world" ie a non-linear mental space that is a part of instrumentality, or maybe pre-instrumentality. Rei 3 is reaching out to humans through her connection to the Angels. She's doing so in a way that is unbounded by the limits of time because she's become a god.

Characters who make direct contact with Angels end up on the train, because it's not shinji's train it's Rei 3's train. Shinji is swallowed by Leliel, starts having train visions. Toji's Eva turns into an angel, now he's on the train. Asuka didn't show up on the train, but you do hear sound effects from the train during the mind rape and she is at a train yard. And of course everybody is on the train during instrumentality.

I'm also on the fence every re-watch as to whether or not the younger versions of characters we get in these visions are the subconscious of the characters or the angels themselves trying to make a connection to a human mind. Or maybe it's both - like the angels are forcing humans to talk to a mirror, but the mirror warps to get across the angel's intent.

I dunno. I'm spitballing at this point.

This is my opinion as well, rei-3 / Lilith becomes unbounded by time, that's why you see her in the very first episode. All of the crazy supernatural head shit that happens throughout the show is her

This is the culmination of Toji's character arc during the show, hence why we don't see him again afterwards. From the start Toji has been on a journey of understanding about Shinji's situation and the weight he carried as an Evangelion pilot. Going from judging how Shinji was able to do his job without being there, to going through something almost exactly the same (Nerv calls out of the blue, has to pilot the eva for the sake of another - in this case his sisters hospital treatment, and then that evangelion going berserk)

For this, Toji is rewarded with a level of understanding of Shinji, and their mindsets "overlap" enough for him to be "invited" into Shinji's mindscape.

The interesting thing to note here is also what it says about Shinji's character. A close friend with more understanding about his current situation has just entered his mindset, become as close as two people are shown to be to understanding each other so far in the show, and Shinji is still so self absorbed he cant even notice this as he continues his own journey of introspection.

Also, adding to this, its also showing how once again, Shinji's unresolved issues with his father is continuing to destroy his life and his own ability to make human connections

hedgehog's dilemma

Ooooooh I REALLY like this take

This is perfect, I've never fully understood this moment but this makes a lot of sense, and your point about Shinji literally not even noticing one of his friends hanging out in the train of introspection with him is so spot on

Here‘s some fanwankery: this could be a metaphor for Jung‘s collective unconscious. Rei mentions that she has a connection to all people, and later we find out she has Lilith‘s soul. I think it implies that this isn‘t just Shinji‘s dream but is actually everyone‘s dream. It has a Shinji-like archetype and a Rei-like archetype in it. Now that I think about it Rei is almost presented like a Jungian shadow in the series. Very interesting... more research is needed...

iirc I read in a translated interview that Anno did read a good bit of Jung and that partially inspired the series, so it isn't too far of a theory. I can try and find the interview again if you'd like.

I feel like theres a good bit of Jungian thought embedded in the show that doesn't ever get discussed, but again more research might be needed. This is my hot take but the Biblical symbology in the show isn't necessarily pointless, but is a play on Jung's idea of the 'primordial imagery' that is the manifest of the collective unconscious. There's multiple Jung passages where he compares Christian symbolism to primal ideas of emotion and relationship, sorta tracing it back to the beginning of humanity if you will. The Angels and Lilith having that appearance might imply that those symbols are from the very first memories of humanity, and then applied later on to early Christianity. Or it might just be because aesthetics lol

is jung like korean shinji

What are you talking about?

Thx for making my day

Carl Jung.

Collective unconsciousness, and Will (Ger. "Wille") if you go by Schopenhauer who wrote the original "Hedgehog's Dilemma".

As the other 3 pilots achieved psychological contact with the angels, it is likely Toji achieved contact as well, especially since his Angel took over the mech he was using. Combine that with the trauma of getting eviscerated by another Eva and you've got sufficient ingredients for Eva-style introspective

[removed]

I think you got it right on the money tbh

I honestly think Toji was on the brink of death and this is some sort of gateway between the afterlife (instrumentality)

I always took that toji being able to perceive them in the dream/hell train as it existing as an actual place, either physically or mentally. I think in the rebuild there was a deleted scene where they had it be the pilots were kept in some kind of actual room during the hell train stuff as this was some kind of pilot program room.

Woah interesting, do you have a source for that deleted scene story?

I think it was from one of the Complete Records Collection for the rebuild.

https://forum.evageeks.org/thread/10976/Eva-2XX-Storyboards-vs-Final/20/ just google searching it looks like it might have been in 2.0 storyboards. But as a cut scene it was cut for some reason and don't want to base any ideas of the show/movie around cut content. Though that would be interesting if it was all a brainwashing program for the pilots.

Why I go back to what is shown in the series and the movies. The fact that Toji appears there makes the place more real and not just an inner representation of Shinji's mind but of some shared reality. The angels and pilots are able to interact in that space as well as in 3+1 we see Shinji and Gendo have a conversation in the hell train before also departing in 3+1.

Well really, are they not in the conscious mind of Lilith since both of them have some connection to Rei and have been in connection to an Eva?

This is one of my favorite scenes in all of Eva