This photo is amazing.
This photo is amazing.
[deleted]
The spice must flow
The brown coal must flow
Yes, that is indeed how most of the open-pit mines look.
He who controls the Spice controls the universe.
Average Dutchman in 17th century
"I must trade my home for a tulip bulb."
The unique pattern on each tulip makes them non-fungible.
Question 1: can you get to India through North America? No but at least there’s beaver.
Question 2: steal the spice trade. That’s not a question but the Dutch dit it anyway.
r/unexpectedbillwurtz
He who controls the pants controls the galaxy
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The gas isn't flowing anymore, so...
Me after my morning coffee.
Arakis!
Desert power!
Exactly this.
Herbert got it exactly right 50 years ago.
Yes Herbert was such a prophet to predict a society heavily dependent on rare and localized resources while living in a society dependent on rare and localized resources.
The sad thing is that there is few things we could depend on less than brown coal. But those 10.000 jobs in a 80 million population are apparently more important than liveable summers for our children.
Where did I say he predicted anything, I just said he got it right 50 years ago.
If anything the situation changed for the worse...
I mean if you think we’re more dependent on oil now than in the 1970s idk what to say.
I mean, isn't it obviously a metaphor (or maybe parable is the better word) for middle eastern oil, post WW2 Arab/Muslim independence movements and fuel for transportation? It's a good metaphor but not exactly ...inconspicuous.
No.
You are very intelligent. Thank you for this input.
Care to elaborate?
He wrote it in '65. Oil crisis didn't hit until '73. So it's at least a little prescient.
It was extremely clear by 1965 that oil was the most important resource in the world, and wasn’t present in a lot of nations.
Pearl Harbor was planned in large part because the US enacted an oil embargo against Japan. Germany invaded Russia in pursuit of resources, in particular steel and oil. It wasn’t prescient at all.
Coal is neither. You can literally grow a forest and make coal by stacking cut firewood so it goes through pyrolysis netting you charcoal.
We have done it for centuries. If anything, rare earth metals to make batteries and catalytic converters are harder to find than coal.
We can process wood into coal and mine it untill we all get problems with our lungs before it runs out. And cheap. It's a reason people still in 2023 burn coal.
These things existed then, so they were probably in his mind when he wrote about the harvesters
The sauerkraurt must flow.
When is a gift not a gift?
Even Japan is going back to Nuclear, why can't german populace make that change ?
The spice melange
I love how the Dune community has grown since the release of the movie !!!
I am so proud 🥲
The one series I'm okay with them rebooting. Let's hope we get to see the God Emporer on the silver screen one day and the quality stays perfect
I think Children is as far as they can get to. I don't think they will make a 3 houre movie about >!Leto!< monolouge.
I never heard about it before being invited to see it with friends and oh lord was that an experience, best 10€ I've spend in a long while. Its analog Star wars with a hint of arabian nights
It'll cost more than 10€, but if you get a chance to see it in IMAX it is so, so worth it.
I can't remember how much it was, we went to the Cinemaxx in Essen so, idk, 12€?15€? Was amazing anyway
Yeah I paid 20 to see it in IMAX here in Düsseldorf lol still worth it
You're paying Düsseldorf bonus, all those rich idiots in Kaiserswerth can afford inflated prices lol
My village Lüzerath is so beautiful when the sun is low. Rolling over the sands, you can see coal in the air.
At night fall, the coal harvesters land. The outsiders race against time to avoid the rage of the activists. They ravage our land in front of our eyes. Their cruelty to my people is all I've known.
These outsiders, the RWE, came long before I was born. By controlling coal production, they became obscenely rich. Richer than Friedrich Merz himself.
Our activists couldn't free Lüzerath from RWE. But one day, by federal decree, they were gone. Why did the government choose this path? And who will our next oppressors be?
The last passage is a wish though...
Is this a paraphrasing of a Dune passage or from something else?
It's Chani's initial monologue from the Dune movie (2021).
https://youtu.be/IKftjYGEktY
Oh, ok. I have read the books so much that I have more of that committed to memory. I have only seen the movie once and that on low volume as my house echoes quite a bit and I don't want to keep family awake.
Will definitely need to watch it as intended as far as sound and larger screen sometime in the near future. Justifies getting an outdoor projector, haha.
The sound engineering of Dune is amazing. It fully deserves to be blasted for full impact if you get the opportunity.
I've heard. Will do when able and looking forward to it.
I give you a tip. When Dune part II reöeases go to your local Imax cinema and also watch part I. I did watch it in Imax and it was the best experience ive ever had in cinema. The sound alone was amazing
Second this. I have rarely gone to the theatre for years but I was stoked for Dune and was so glad I did. It was glorious in 4k imax or whatever it was.
Rolling over the sands, you can see coal in the air.
you can see CO2 in the air.
Love is in the air
Everywhere I look around
Coal too! I grew up near the pit and had a phase in which I took pictures of the night sky a couple of years ago. When I visited my parents I tried to do the same, but the images are all kind of orange. It's coal particles reflecting the street lights. It's scary to actually see it.
When I was a child my father always spoke about the bad air quality around there, but seeing it was terrible. I haven't taken photos of the night sky since.
I mean they did it to themselves. Your society requires fossil fuels. You just put sanctions on the country who produces most of that for you, and the. Still want all modern things that come with them, it’s ok if they mine it some far away land and destroy there village but when you bring it to my back door, no way Jose.
nah i doubt that a federal djahd would help lützerath.
I read this right after watching that bagger 288 video and I couldn't stop reading it in that same voice and tempo
r/greatparaphrasing
Give this man a medal🥇
Little else is known of the protestors, except that they are dangerous and unreliable.
Public protests make coal harvesting extremely hazardous. For the protestors, coal is the ground beneath the soil that preserves life and brings enormous health benefits.
For the RWE, coal is used by the oligarchs to find safe paths between the markets. Without coal, unnecessary profit is impossible, making it by far the most valuable substance in the universe.
It's almost like Germany had zero emissions nuclear power plants that worked well for a long time, then their idiot politicians banned it for no good reason...
It's not a wish. It's nuclear energy and everybody thinks it's the second coming of the Christ, but they will find out just how bad it is. Just like in the books.
u/BombastixderTeutone Like I'd said,
the wicked kings of Helluland will not stop for sense or moral reasons
I meant that, are you, and u/Stabile_Feldmaus familiar with this song,
When I was a child my family would travel
Down to Western Kentucky where my parents were born
And there's a backwards old town that's often remembered
So many times that my memories are worn.
And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away
This a True Story, it's real, and that Gone Town was called, "paradise," even, lest we think there is some angle of advertising, or, outreach, which can operate in lieux of a heart,
Well, sometimes we'd travel right down the Green River
To the abandoned old prison down by Airdrie Hill
Where the air smelled like snakes and we'd shoot with our pistols
But empty pop bottles was all we would kill.
And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away
World's Largest Shovel, anybody?
Then the coal company came with the world's largest shovel
And they tortured the timber and stripped all the land
Well, they dug for their coal till the land was forsaken
Then they wrote it all down as the progress of man.
And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away
I didn't like this song, or didn't know how to, until I'd heard an interview with the author on the radio, about how his father had died before he'd become famous for music but that He'd Played this for his father, and his father had cried and told him that he'd done a good job; people from where I live are these people also.
When I die let my ashes float down the Green River
Let my soul roll on up to the Rochester dam
I'll be halfway to Heaven with Paradise waitin'
Just five miles away from wherever I am.
And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away
This one is also quite good and related, it is a beautiful part of the country, you won't hear it talked of that way, because of what's happened to it, of course
every wonder how all the CO2 got into the atmosphere? They have been digging it up there for centuries and burned it...
German Harkonnens protecting their precious coal.
The activists will jump out of the grass.
It will always be Harkoset not Harkonnens in my head canon :D
Always weird seeing my family name pop out of nowhere
German?
Finnish, Harkonenn comes from the name Härkönen (or that's what i've heard)
Yep the author said he was looking for an evil soviet-sounding family name in the phone book, which is a bit ironic.
Yea. To me personally Härkönen is one of most Finnish names possible. But of course sounds propably different to someone who's non native
I mean we’re literally doing this now.
House Harkonnen.
The chancellor is a jealous man
Haus Harkonnen.
Dis is da Weg
Klaus von Harkonnen.
Haus von Harkonnen
Haus von und zu Harkonnenstein
Hans Harkonnen
You're listening to Harkonnen in the morning. Good Harkonnen to you
Harkonnen actually comes from Finnish surname Härkönen.
Where's my sexy femboy Messiah?
I was thinking more season 1 Westworld
but yeah
I was feeling Cyberpunk but Dune isn't far off tbh
I was thinking of that establishing shot from Avatar 1
It's the /r/megalophobia/ that does it
Straight outta Compton!
Edit: Not Birdsite
Bagger 293 is in Westworld
*Düne
I would say Tales from the Loop/Electric State
Avatar would like a word.
Like, doubly, "the sandworm is the emperor now," like, yeah; and Europeans, remember, that Dune was written, in an America ravaged by an Anti-humane colonialism from the east coast on the Sea-Dunes of Oregon, that inspired the book, which, in large part, I'd say, is about how Indigenous American and Traditional European Values and Perspectives have quite a lot of humane sense in common, in fact I was talking, to a doctor friend of mine, just on Tuesday, about how, kinda, right when Don Quixote made European Knightly Virtues, "uncool," was right when they'd been needed; the conquistadors and the slave trade and all of this were a real dragon, just begging for real knights to put an end to it, instead of relativistic and self-interested bureaucratic solutions, these things, anyway, the wicked kings of Helluland will not stop for sense or moral reasons
In Dune, at least, humanity has several planets and is not going to destroy itself over this shit.
It would fit well into a dystopian SF-novel where aliens have landed on this planet and are now, shielded by the mindcontrolled collaborateurs, harvesting rare elements from our planet's crust, resulting in the inevitable death of mankind.
Ah yes... I also played Half-Life.
Did the Combine even have a real motivation in Half-Life 2 for invading Earth (or any world)? It always kind of came off that they were an evil multidimensional empire of enslaved races just for the sake of being evil.
Further motivations may have been unveiled in a hypothetical HL3 or Chapter 3, but based on what we do know, they're doing it for resources.
For example, they have portals set up to slowly siphon all water from the Earth's oceans (hence why the water level is so low in maps set near the coast), and they are enslaving and modifying humans over time, adding them to their army. We also know that their homeworld and many other worlds are extremely toxic to humans.
One of the reasons they seem to be taking it relatively easy on Earth (killing it slowly rather than just eradicating and assimilating it) is that they want human teleportation technology. The Combine are unable to teleport between two places in the same universe/dimension, and requires extreme amounts of energy. Black Mesa teleportation tech uses Xen as a "dimensional slingshot" to teleport within the same dimension, while using far less energy.
The problem with trying to figure out the Combine motivation is that we know very little about the universe beyond. We only ever see Earth, and parts of Xen. We don't even know if the Advisors are the leaders of the Combine Empire, a sort of governors for captured planets (or liason between Administrators like Breen and the homeworld), or just tools.
We also do not really know how the Combine power stacks up to other multidimensional powers which may exist, only that multiple different groups do exist;
The Combine are a multi-dimensional Empire. They are incredibly powerful, and possibly led by the Advisors, who have strong psychic powers.
They are terrified of the G-Man, whom we know almost nothing about, except that he is exceptionally powerful (seemingly able to bend space-time at will, but can be temporarily held in place by a large amount of Vortigaunts).
The G-Man is employed by someone. We have no idea who this employer is.
The Nihilanth (final boss of HL1) is the last of his species, and led his enslaved followers into Xen, and later Black Mesa, in an attempt to escape the Combine Empire. He can create teleportation bubbles/portals.
The Vortigaunts were one of multiple races enslaved by the Vortigaunt. They have some psychic powers, and can naturally teleport.
Race X have only ever been seen in Opposing Force, where they came in through a different portal and started a secondary alien invasion at the same time as the Xen aliens. Seems to be led by a creature known as a Gene Worm, which will assimilate any planet it enters (given enough time) to make it suitable for Race X.
Then we have a ton of other alien species which are either enslaved by the Nihilanth or Combine, creatures which have been transplanted to Xen or Earth, etc.
They are opportunistic expansionists. They detected the shockwave you made in game 1 and have come to enslave whoever made it, eventually assimilating them into their hive mind/world and destroying the original. This is what was happening to the border world zen before we got there.
Once they invaded however, they found something MUCH more valuable; we're absolute madlads. The combine inherently lacks our creativity, and as such have never invented a local teleport. The only reason everything on earth isn't dead yet is that they want it. Bad.
Fortunately, they don't seem to have heard any rumours about what's buried in a certain abandoned salt mine in Upper Michigan yet. If the Combine acquired Black Mesa's clunky-but-serviceable teleportation tech, it would be very bad, but if they got their hands (tentacles?) on the hyper-efficient stuff Aperture Science cooked up, that'd just be game over for the entire multiverse overnight.
Mayyyybe. Dyed portal particles from the gun (before a portal is established) still appear to travel at the speed of light (evidence: moon shot), meanwhile black Mesa can open portals in arbitrary space but with low accuracy. They probably want/need both
Ressources, humans are a ressource as well, after their convertion to Combine CP.
And Xcom 2!
And Oblivion! (movie with Tom Cruise)
Such a great movie.
Sci-fi Tom Cruise is one of my favorite movie genre
It's the real-life Tom Cruise you need to be wary of.
Scientology Tom Cruise is my least favourite...
Which, oddly enough, is still entirely science fiction.
Strike the science
I mean, it’s literally been sold as science fiction by its novelist founder.
You may consider my remark both a) an anti-religious commentary from the fingers of an atheist as well as b) a snide against the mostly forgettable literary droppings of Mr. Hubbard, which, as far as I have read, can't really fulfill the "science"-part of that genre's name.
Then again, not many can. Or aspire to. And "future fairy tale" just is not a catchy enough name to gain any foothold. I've given up this battle long ago, too, so... mainly a.
[deleted]
yeah, you are right. i'll correct it.
No couch is safe!
What’s your top 3?
Shush Might & Magic Oblivion was great.
I only played it with a guide, until I teleported to an alien world.
I never liked first person shooter - I am too afraid to die. The only exception was Heretic in a LAN. It was too ridiculous to transform your opponents into chickens to not like this game.
But Half-Life had a decent story, and friends had me gotten so interested with their stories that I had to give it a try. And I must say, it was fun.
I never liked first person shooter - I am too afraid to die. The only exception was Heretic in a LAN.
I never liked driving cars - I am too afraid of accidents. The only exception was a Formular 1 race in a grand prix.
I never liked RTS games - I am too afraid of mismanaging my units. The only exception was when I became Broodwar champion at a lan event.
I never liked Super Mario - I am too afraid to jump. The only exception was when I speedran Kaizo Mario World.
I never had SO. I am too afraid to get my heart broken. The only exception when i played Sims
Who is Ian?
[removed]
Not quite the pinnacle but far from something I would recommend someone who usually does not play fps games at all. Just made me laugh a bit when I read their comment
I used to play Heretic! Played it with a coworker over a serial connection. Fun times
There was a map that I particularly enjoyed. I think the name was heinous? A round map around a hole in the ground.
Serial was the port that connected to printer, too, right? I think we used them, too, when we were but two that played. We had a fryer back then, so when we met to play, somebody brought french fries, and we spent the day / evening killing untold amounts of french fries and sprites. good times. ;-)
You are afraid to die in a video game? That’s very unusual and interesting. So, you can’t play shooters because it’s uncomfortable for you to get shot and die in the game?
yepp.
And no, I can play. I just don't enjoy it. And if I do, I am exceedingly careful not to die. If it comes to dangerous situations, I get squirrelly. So I never trained, and as a result, I generally suck at them. Which is why i didn't improved since... hm, 1995? :-D
So maybe you read more into my words than I meant with them. It is no existential fright that I, as a person, might suffer consequences.
Honestly I feel the same, which is why I play the equivalent of skyrim's "stealth archer" whenever I can: Attacking from a high position, far out of reach of the enemy, and always in a situation where I'm ridiculously overlevelled so they can't harm me.
If I can't play a game with this strategy, I'll just avoid playing it.
Haha sounds like you sure suck, tho!
Hail, Captain Ignore The Explicitly Written"! Is Captain Obvious drunk again for you to have to fill his shoes?
I feel this way about RTS games. Hate the thought of losing so I don't play against others, just predictable computer opponents.
I also live on this planet.
Hey now... I also don't want coal to be, again, an energy source...
Germany didn't want nuclear, and wind/solar aren't exactly perfect for that nation...
Honestly wanted to see a fusion power plant up and running...
I am German actually. Renewables are definitely working well here. It's basically Bavarian federal politics that block going full green energy. They don't want the powerlines running through their beautiful landscape. That's the problem we have.
Nuclear fission is still crap, too expensive and the waste problem remains unsolved since ever.
Fusion is still a dream. A dream I have too but its not here and won't be in the next 30+ years.aybe never. Don't count on fusion.
Or do ... The large fusion reactor in the sky is working well since 4 billion years (tried and tested technology) and has enough energy for forever. Let's work on harvesting that.
Back to the topic: My comment was implying that we don't need aliens to fuck up out planet. In fact, science fiction is always portraying the present in disguise.
Problem later is how to implement those in certain industries/houses.
For examples, arent blast furnaces using fossil fuels to melt iron, copper and others. Or houses where heating is done by gas.
Changing those fuels to, let's say to be simplistic, "heating electric panels" is going to take time and investment.
It's not only reducing fossil fuel consumption, bit also replacing industrial/civilian systems that require fossil fuels.
Or do ... The large fusion reactor in the sky is working well since 4 billion years (tried and tested technology) and has enough energy for forever. Let's work on harvesting that.
Ah yes! Ngl, the first thing i thought about this was a Dyson Sphere xP
Dyson Sphere is just solar panels with extra steps 😉
Wait what
Is that the fucking story??
Less about aliens and more beings of other universe/dimension that have conquer countless worlds and are now extracting from Earth it's resources (for example water, as it's levels on Earth diminished by a lot in the game)
Ya, like wait wtf. I always thought it was just aliens and shit. When the fuck do they explain the resource extraction?!?!?
There are parts in the game of a beach and a port.
In the beach, of the highway 17 chapter, there's a lighthouse way far where it should be (near the water)
In the port, of the Sandtraps chapter, there's 2 cargo ships that've been stranded in the sand due to the water being lowered.
After the 7 hour war, Earth was "picked to the bone" as Freeman said.
Even the Combine Walls in City 17 were slowly and steadily moving forward picking up the rumble of the former settlement to recycle raw materials.
You have a fisherman that says "there's no more fishes, only leaches that catch anything near the ocean". As well almost no animals are even found in the wild. Russel indicates that most livestock has gone extinct.
Basically the Combine is striping Earth of it's natural resources and killing off non sentient beings (as they have done on other universes). Their goal is to control the entire multiverse.
Oh shit, so I heard all of those parts and saw all of that, I just assumed it was stereotypical “doomsday talk” that happens in all apocalyptic games (admittedly I also played it back when it came out which was a long fucking time ago)
I’m regards to the combine (and the giant fucking tower) I thought it was just like the gestapo, like an authoritarian ruler, I didn’t realize the combine were off earth beings, which I assume ties back into half life 1 and the portal and all that stuff
Half life 1 is the black mesa incident.
Humans were trying teleportation, incidentally they opened a portal for the Combine to Earth. Reason why humans weren't genocided nor assimilated was bcz of the teleportation device.
The Combine is a multiversal empire, they can teleport to different universes and realities... But, they cannot teleport locally, meaning they can have but a few places where they can reach Earth. That's the Combine gave Wallace Breen, the head scientist of Black Mesa, the position of Combine's representative of Earth.
and the giant fucking tower
Thats the Citadel, where the Combine portal connects with Earth.
I thought it was just like the gestapo, like an authoritarian ruler
According to some that inspiration was likely by the 1962 Novel One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest by Ken Kesey. The narrator mentions an oppressive, manipulative, and mechanistic authority that rules the masses, that he referred to as "The Combine."
Holy shit, I wish I had paid way more attention to the story, I just love playing them because they were awesome games but I was relatively young when I played them so didn’t have much appreciation
I didn’t realize it was so in-depth and developed! Thanks for walking me through the storyline I am going to most definitely have to do more reading/pick them back up again!
Half Life has a decent lore! The Combine is still pretty unknown.
There's more about storyline I'm sure, tho it's been some 9 years since i last played the game...
Alas i wish you good readings/gaming!
Pick up that can
Oblivion too. Film not game.
Except it is real and instead of aliens we have greed.
I like that concept. Could be made into a movie, perhaps called "Halved Lives" or something, with Morgan Freeman.
The right man at the right time, Mister Freeman.
„They are waiting for you in the test chamber“
Perfectly stressed - my brain read that in that scientists voice!
Or "Oblivion", also with Morgan Freeman.
Mind controlled? Have you ever met humans? It would be as simple as “you will still have power in my new world” and that’s all it would take.
Probably not even that much -
We will offer you an extra $1/hour to work here.
Bam, they would have at least half of humanity obeying their every wish. I'm fairly sure the comfort women/men won't get paid that much extra, tho. Maybe 25 cents more an hour?
This, considering how popular cults are and this being exactly how they operate. All you need is a charismatic narcissist to lead the thing.
Bro all you need is the guy who writes the god damn paycheck.
Those German have always been horribly mind controlled and taken advantage of you can't expect them to think for themselves that's just absurd!!!
shielded by the collaborateurs, harvesting poisonous elements from our planet's crust, resulting in the inevitable death of mankind.
Haha, that would be crazy right? The imagination on these sci-fi writers...
Literally 2 sec before á politician tries to bargain with the aliens.
"dystopian af" was also my first reaction
I live "nearby" that area and have driven past it many times already. It definitely feels like another world. Almost no one lives in that area, there is a Autobahn (highway) going straight through the lignite mine and to the left and to the right are two giant holes. The highways had to be demolished and rebuild a few times by now already as the lignite mine moves along. It's a bizarre area
yeah it’s those damn aliens hu
So uhm current day?
obviously, yes. But with the excavator so overwhelmingly large in the background, it looks strange, more like taken from an imagination of an SF-novel then from today.
Didn’t transformers have a smaller scale version?
I get you.
But sans aliens, I feel like we’re already there.
3 billion years of evolution, 250'000 years voyaging in a spaceship, enslaving billions of humans to ... to harvest... coal... !?! like the least effective form of energy ?
well done Aliens !
In the setting of an sf-novel, they wouldn't be harvesting coal, but, let's say, a hypothetical stable element 294, which only is found on earth, because aeons ago, in the orbit around this planet, a starship from the extinct precursor race ahe1!154231! was destroyed, which lead to its components falling down onto the surface, where it slowly was whittled down to dust, which dispersed. There's only a few thousand tonnes of this wondrous element, and it is everywhere, but hard to find. It is nowhere else in this galaxy, because the precursors synthecised it through an unknown process, and they themselves originated in another galaxy. So the only possibility of aquiring enough of element 294 is to sift through the whole crust of this planet. Whe we're seeing in the pic above is but one pat of a larger machine, of which there are many copies being build...
is it now more believable and realistic for you? ;-)
Joke's on them.
We beat them to it.
We showed them!
Lol you think humans would need to be mind controlled?
r/ABoringDystopia
That kinda sounds like Oblivion, or The 5th wave, or Captive State.
Well, if you want inventive and good SF, it is hard to find in apocalyctic scenarios. :-/
SF is just social commentary of today dressed up in lasers and shit
Any dimly lit piece of machinery makes for good SF dystopian imagery
Or a dystopian documentary where wealthy humans are now, shielded by willing and collaborateurs, harvesting everything they can from our planet's crust and ocean, resulting in the inevitable death of mankind.
Prompt:
Write me a dystopian Scifi short story where aliens have landed on this planet and are now, shielded by the mindcontrolled collaborateurs, harvesting rare elements from our planet's crust, resulting in the inevitable death of mankind.
Result:
The sun had barely risen above the horizon when the first ship appeared in the sky. At first, people thought it was just a new kind of airplane, but as it drew closer, it became clear that this was no ordinary aircraft. It was a ship unlike anything anyone had ever seen before, with strange, angular lines and a shimmering, metallic surface that seemed to shift and change colors as it moved.
As the ship descended, a hush fell over the crowd that had gathered to watch. No one knew what to expect, but there was a sense of dread in the air. When the ship finally landed, a ramp extended from its side and a group of beings emerged.
They were humanoid in shape, but their skin was a deep, glossy blue, and their eyes were large and black, with no visible pupils. They wore flowing, silver robes and moved with a grace that was almost otherworldly.
At first, the humans were terrified of the aliens, but as they approached, they began to emit a strange, soothing hum that seemed to calm everyone's nerves. They introduced themselves as the Arcturians, and they explained that they had come in peace.
The Arcturians were welcomed with open arms, and they quickly became the toast of the town. They were intelligent and wise, and they shared their advanced technology with the humans, who were eager to learn from them.
But as time passed, it became clear that the Arcturians had a hidden agenda. They were harvesting rare elements from the planet's crust, using the humans as their unwilling accomplices. Those who resisted were mind-controlled and turned into collaborateurs, helping the Arcturians in their quest for resources.
As the extraction of these elements continued, the earth began to die. The oceans became polluted and the air became toxic. Plants and animals began to disappear, and the humans knew that it was only a matter of time before they would suffer the same fate.
But even as they realized the gravity of the situation, they were powerless to stop the Arcturians. They had become too deeply entrenched in human society, and their mind control was too strong. The humans were forced to watch as their planet was destroyed, knowing that their own demise was inevitable.
And so, as the last remnants of humanity looked on in despair, the Arcturians loaded their ships and prepared to leave, their mission complete and their pockets full of the rare elements they had come for. The humans were left behind to face the consequences of their actions, knowing that they had brought about their own demise through their naive trust in the alien invaders.
Rakka by Neill Blomkamp
Except the aliens are politicians... Wait a minute, reptilians! I've read about this before 🤔
That don't even have to be mind controlled. Plenty of humans through out history have collaborated with an occupying force/enemy.
X-Com vibes
"The aliens are killing us. We only have enough Europium supplies to make 2 new next generation iPhone models. After that, there will be no more tiktoks, no more grams, no more tweets, no more toots. No more!"
"I cannot live like that anymore. This is it for me; the end.". He opened the desk's heavy drawer and looked inside in apprehension before reaching inside for a book.
Looks like one of those dystopian 80s or 90s movies
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Well, if you were made promises that you and your family would survive, you'd probably become doubts, too, when the alternative is to see your children starve right now. You're only human, after all.
Nah, it’s clearly Shinra soldiers protecting a mako extraction site from the AVALANCHE eco-terrorist group.
No need for mind control. They’d just need the offer of “power” and money.
possibly. or a chance of survival for them and their family. people are people.
They wouldn't need to be mindshackled as we have seen with people there are plenty who will choose that path willingly.
I can't believe noone has mention this looks like it's straight out of the work of Simon Stålenhag
Or, the aliens are taking a resource we have no need for and promise to give us a great reward after they're done. One faction of humanity protects them, the others wants to stop them.
Spoiler: Humans lose in both cases.
possible... but I wouldn't have replied had it not reminded me of the '84 depeche mode album Some Great Reward again - just an hour or so earlier I replied in this thread and used "people are people" in it. maybe I should listen to that album again. It's been a decade, probably. ;-)
All so they can grow a pair
It looks similar to the opening scene of Dune (2021).
I love that you think they would need to be mindcontrolled. I wish I was so optimistic.
Just replace "aliens" with "capital" and "mind-controlled" with "paid off" and you have what's in the photo.
Except the difference is the aliens horde those materials. While to have electricity in your house your literally using the electricity made from the fossil fuels “Why do they have to mine coal” because you want electricity. If they didn’t do it here theyd do it In some far away land and that’s ok because there fuckin up someone else town and not mine.
"Drone better."
~ Ivan Vanko
Typo sorry meant to be from
I thought it was AI art at first
Nah, not enough random lines and cables on the excavator. AI loves adding random lines and cables to mechanical stuff.
And fingers to hands.
Artists love adding cables to sci Fi shit. AI is just ripping off everyone on art station
Cables like this?
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bagger-garzweiler.jpg#/media/File:Bagger-garzweiler.jpg
Nah, more like this (actual AI art):
https://i.imgur.com/cdoGOtf.png
https://i.imgur.com/6MzVWjR.png
https://i.imgur.com/3jKp8S1.png
https://i.imgur.com/ObbwOPn.png
etc
Full album (slightly NSFW): https://imgur.com/gallery/4S46qk2
Very typical AI stuff; lines, cables, etc everywhere... plastic skin... tons of designs you can instantly recognize where it stole it from... extra teeth, messed up eyes and hands, impossible-to-wear clothing... materials merging into each other... no text makes any sense...
We can make it into one...
We have the technology...
Fine. Tried to post it as a new post, but it was auto-removed.
I legitimately thought it was an SCP video title screen. I was like "Wait, did I open YouTube?"
Sorry, no AI. I feel like there are even worse pictures of that area than this one
I thought it was AI art at first
Just when you thought this thread couldn't get any more dystopian.
Now people are assuming that reality was created by AI.
Thanks for letting us know.
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Can you explain why this happens? What's the benefit of this scheme? Who's buying reddit accounts and why? I'm just so confused by why this would be a thing.
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Also some subreddits require some minimum amount of karma for posting or commenting.
Shinra needs that materia though.
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This is a bot reposting other people's comments.
Yeah nonsensical reply to another reply and quoting a random thing? Checks out
This is a bot account, downvote and report.
Honestly, I don't know anymore. In Germany your (realistic) options are:
You pretty much painted the situation in Italy. Only difference is that we have on top of that a new total idiocy populist party born out of an internet platform to the slogan of "every politician is corrupt, we make a whole new different party let's do things the correct way it's easy" so now we have also people who where already uncapable of doing anything that have been elected.
That’s the funny thing with all parties created to “fight corruption”: once they gain power, they become corrupted as well.
I'm sorry, but he is not spot on. It's ridiculous, simplified and partly wrong. I neither like liberals and conservatives, but in both parties are still constructive elements. I actually think all parties except AFD and Die Linke (left) would habe managed this crisis we had in the past due to war. The difference is that Union and FDP are less oriented towards the worker or equality.
What is different is that in the current government are people who have some visions who go a bit beyond managing the status quo. In the end a lot of compromise (also necessary due to Bundesrat).
"Greens" who are push-overs and will do anything as long as they don't lose power
Please do elaborate. They've been slapped with a war affecting all of Europe and a massive energy crisis. How are they 'pushovers' for having to adjust to a radically different reality that the previous CDU/SPD governments failed to prepare for?
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Greens are pushovers, investing half as much into temporary infrastructure rather then structural changes. Subsidizing least efficient form of transportation while crying about gas prices...
Mainly the CxU, together with the FDP they have cut the solar companies down to size and sat out the renewable target.
Why are you spelling it CxU?
CDU and CSU(The Bavarian CDU)
I am German as well so I know both of them but I was afraid it was one of those "new" trends like writing womxn
Cant use Union in english as that term means something else...
Böhmermann even did a video about that topic.
https://youtu.be/TKrUBXO1J_0
See US, multiple parties isn't a panacea!
Hey! You forgot us good tiny parties!
I intentionally left out the smaller ones because those are not really going to have any chances to join the Bundestag if we're being honest (except SSW but that's a whole different story)
Could this be something to do with the huge shifts in energy sourcing required since Germany relied almost entirely on Russia and Russia is now using that to blackmail them?
A coal mine is bad, but letting Russia do whatever the fuck they want because we need their gas is also bad.
So is nuclear power.
Even electricity is
They're excavating there to find the remains of whoever asked
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It’s not a good investment for oil.
That’s an argument for why new nuclear isn’t built. It isn’t an argument for why existing nuclear that isn’t at the end of its life is shut down. That very much is the “sjw environmentalist”
All nuclear plants are way past their end of life point. That’s why France is so fucked atm. Relying on plants that were meant to be replaced 10-20 years ago is a time bomb in terms of reliability of power production.
Today the question is only new plants or an exit. Even as short term plans.
This is just a straight fabrication. Plants built in 1988 were not meant to be replaced 10-20 years ago and yet that is what Germany wanted to shut down. The pressure is coming from the environmental groups because they fear nuclear more than coal for some bizarre reason.
Emsland is shut down because it is right next to offshore wind. And building new offshore wind energy is cheaper than running nuclear.
And the other 2 need massive investments.
That explanation makes no sense. For 1) electricity is not that local in the modern age. Electricity produced anywhere in the country is very readily used anywhere else in the country. 2) wind and nuclear are not directly competing with each other. Nuclear is a base load producer. It is competing with coal. Shutting down nuclear means you are using more coal, period.
Germany has a massive problem with transporting the electricity. The main production is in the north and consumption in the south.
And the southern states blocked all high capacity transfer projects (to promote coal).
If you would split Germany into two zones then the south would be 50% more expensive and the north barely above the cost of wind energy.
And offshore wind is base load.
In Germany, maybe, if you refer to CDU voters as sjw environmentalists.
France / Britain had different reasons. Suppose you will be too lazy to actually check them (since you didn't so far but pretend to know the topic).
reddit is imho good to understand how average person to claims to 'know something' knows nothing. The old adage, that an expert will be unlikely to even make a claim while a fool will scream it, is certainly true.
You could actually explain Britain and Frances reasoning, instead of being demeaning. Otherwise you’re not really contributing much value here
Why bother explaining something to some dumbass libertarian that pops up in a thread about our politics to tell us the “sjw environmentalists” are the problem.
I was genuinely asking the reasons Britain and France have for not wanting nuclear power beyond just the general “nuclear bad” nonsense. Im guessing it’s probably disposal and cost reasons, which are the most talked about reasons outside of environmental concerns.
I didn’t even say anything about environmentalists. Way to conform to stereotypes my dude.
It's always the same, the ignorant people keep sealioning, demanding answers and then get upset when not everyone wastes their time educating those that don't want to learn.
Lol they’re an American libertarian, like they have any idea about Germany/France/UK politics.
That hardly explains many politicians’ pledge (and actual support) to shut down running Nuclear Plants
is because of 'sjw environmentalist beta soyboys' to distract
What the fuck dude? This isn't murica
Nuclear is great, but it's not a good investment on the short term.
Keeping the nukes running is like the best short term deal you could hope to pull off.
A nuclear power plant cannot continue to run "in the short term"; nuclear power plants are probably the most complicated thing in the world to get a further operating permit, even if it is wanted by politicians. This is not a simple switch to flip. Even if it were decided today to keep the nuclear power plants in Germany running, this would simply not be possible. It takes years to decades to completely test a nuclear power plant and let it run without any technical risk. However, what was possible in the short term in Germany by the CDU government was a complete destruction of the solar and wind energy sector, which has set Germany back 10 years in terms of energy technology.
A nuclear power plant cannot continue to run "in the short term";
When you made it shut down early, yes it can...
We have a proverb for this in Germany:
"Wäre wäre Fahradkette".
„Hätte, hätte, Ankerkette“ bitteschön.
Even if it were decided today to keep the nuclear power plants in Germany running, this would simply not be possible.
You could ask the French for help, but I suppose that would be a fate worse than death.
So, why does Germany need to export energy to France then?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-04/how-much-power-does-germany-export-to-france
Because France chose to not dimension its nuclear capacities for peak usage.
You’re exporting electricity from coal and gas plants which run on imported coal and gas. Is it supposed to be impressive ?
Are there uran mines in France?
Yes there are, and uranium is 0.5% of the cost of a nuclear KWh. France has a 10 years supply in stock which can produce 75% of its electricity. And yearly supply fits on a single ship, with the largest uranium producers being Australia and Canada. Why do you think France built nuclear plants for energy independence in the 70's, you think they forgot they had to mine or import uranium ?
"As France itself has limited uranium reserves (primarily concentrated in Limousin, Morvan, Fore-Madeleine in the Central French massif and the Vendee regions of the country), most of the country's uranium needs has been met mainly from Africa, in particular, its former colonies."
https://resourceworld.com/france-aims-to-retain-leadership-in-global-uranium-mining/
There are reserves, they just don't make economical sense now.
What's your point anyway, are you so ill informed you think France is at risk of not having uranium to run its plants ?
Our countries run on oil and gas which we don't have and you worry about a uranium which can be stored for years, cost nothing and whose largest suppliers are Canada and Australia ?
France could reopen its mines and produce uranium at ten times the cost people would even notice it on their bills.
You came at me that Germany would import Oil and Gas.
Today, France imports energy from Germany. And this isn't the first time.
The main reason I'm against nuclear energy is that one accident can fuck up whole regions. All nuclear plants are man-made, human error is a thing, and every single nuclear reactor has a probability to fail (for sure a very low one), but every nuclear reactor built, increases the probabilty of one of them to fail.
The more or less recent nuclear accidents were all caused by human error. Chernobyl by the operators, Fukushima by the planers.
Today, France imports energy from Germany. And this isn't the first time.
No it's not the first time, it's voluntary, Germany imports when there's no wind, France imports when it's winter. And it's designed that way, France stopped building nuclear plants because of overcapacities in the 2000's, nuclear can be scaled at will.
The main reason I'm against nuclear energy is that one accident can fuck up whole regions. All nuclear plants are man-made, human error is a thing, and every single nuclear reactor has a probability to fail (for sure a very low one), but every nuclear reactor built, increases the probabilty of one of them to fail.
Yet it hasn't, Ukraine still uses nuclear energy, Japan too. The consequences of accidents are marginal when you compare them to the disasters climate change is already doing now. German coal is killing 20 000 person per year, it's more than any nuclear accident can cause, it's tens of Chernobyl every year. You just don't see it on the news.
Yet it hasn't
But it has.
No, it caused problems around Chernobyl due the lack of containment. That's a single "region" and that's a generous use of the word region. Fukushima is livable. Coal mines in Germany have displaced far more people than Fukushima and rendered those zones inhospitable forever.
Dams have wrecked regions and killed hundreds of thousands instantly, they are far more dangerous yet you don't fear them. This fear of nuclear power is irrational, especially compared to the fossil fuels we use which are having an everlasting impact on a global scale.
So you oppose nuclear, but are perfectly fine with coal plants that spew massive amounts of Co2 in to the atmosphere? Not to mention radioactivity. Had Germany kept their reactors running they could have been way more aggressive at shutting down their coal plants. But no, which is why they are still operating them, including worst of the all, lignite plants.
There are still 3 running reactors. You are arguing in bad faith.
And there is also this Ukraine thing ongoing, did you miss that?
There are still 3 running reactors. You are arguing in bad faith.
Since 2010, Germany has reduced their nuclear production from 140Twh to 70Twh, reduction of 50%. You are arguing in bad faith.
And there is also this Ukraine thing ongoing, did you miss that?
What about Ukraine? Are you referring to the fact that Germany spent massive amounts of money buying fossil fuels from murderous dictatorship?
There are still 3 running.
What about Ukraine? Are you referring to the fact that Germany spent massive amounts of money buying fossil fuels from murderous dictatorship?
What do you suggest, that we buy (far more expensive) LNG from the other genocidial maniacs from across the pond, or from the epitomes of human rights in Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Iran...?
There are still 3 running.
And how many have been shut down since 2010? Their total output has been reduced by 50%.
What do you suggest, that we buy (far more expensive) LNG from the other genocidial maniacs from across the pond, or from the epitomes of human rights in Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Iran...?
Who says you need to buy from Qatar or Saudi Arabia? There's also Norway and USA. "But it's too expensive!", yeah, I guess that justifies financing Russia's war-machine.
Since we need to get rid of fossil fuels, you should have kept on running your nuclear plants as long as possible, while aggressively getting rid of fossil fuels (starting with lignite) while ramping up renewables. That also reduces reliance on Russia and the like. Instead of doing that, you focused on shutting down nuclear while being way less aggressive at getting rid of fossil fuels. Which is why Germany still has higher than average Co2-emissions in EU.
Could nothing have to do with the French outsourcing their energy production for some parts of the year.
You can built as many nuclear power plants as you want, doesn't make nuclear more renawable or less dangerous.
Hotter summers will be more common in the future, too. Good luck with cooling down the reactors then.
Coal power kills way more people that nuclear does, not to mention coal power being key driver in climate change. Nuclear power is the safest form on energy generation we have.
The reason why Germany is exporting power to France is because of the ongoing nuclear outages in France, which is quite extraordinary event. Once the reactors are running again, situation changes.
Nuclear power is the safest form on energy generation we have
Bullshit.
Not included, cancer and upcoming problems with waste storage.
Nuclear is far too expensive, not renawable and up to this day we haven't found a proper solution to handle the waste.
The next Gen Reactors you'll now come up with, do not exist.
It includes fatalities caused by power generation, including deaths from cancer caused by radiation exposure. You are just annoyed when facts don't agree with your assertions. I have actual statistics to back up my claims, you do not.
We have perfectly workable solutions to nuclear waste. No, nuclear is not renewable. But it is Co2-free, which is what we need right now.. Coal (which Germany is using in massive amount) kills more people EACH AND EVERY YEAR than Chernobyl ever did, and causes climate change. We must do everything we can to get rid of coal, and nuclear can help there.
I'm done, I just realized that you are from Finland.
Population density:
Finland: 16.4/km2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland
Germany: 232/km2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany
232/16.4 = 14,146
Population density:
what does population density have to do with anything?
Nobody sane wants a nuclear reactor in his neighborhood, nor a nuclear waste storage site.
Just look up the real estate prices around nuclear facilities.
Ah, NIMBY.
Finnish nuclear reactors and our storage site are in southern Finland, where people are living.
Wow, the 3 running reactors in Germany are based in New-Swabia /S
German power exports to France jumped to their highest level in more than three decades last year as the nation struggled with prolonged nuclear outages.
Oof...good retort, I gotta admit
I found a really great article explaining a lot of the problems and unknowns of these huge, complicated machines. Each one is unique so there so there is a lot that can go wrong and it’s very hard and expensive to maintain.
https://www.newyorker.com/science/elements/how-safe-are-nuclear-power-plants
nukes running is like the best short term deal
It makes sense to use them while they are there, but remember (!) their net effect is far, far lower than it seems from the raw output numbers.
Mainly letting nuclear run means shutting down wind to prevent overpowering the network. Nuclear can't be regulated so everything else needs to be shut off (mainly wind).
Hence their net effect is quite small over the year. And even worse, not cost effective for that amount it gives.
But yeah, short term why not. At least if the operators still want to do it, because most already look for a cheap way out without crashing the stock price.
Nuclear can’t be regulated so everything else needs to be shut off (mainly wind).
What? No. Nuclear operates on the same basic principle as coal and natural gas and oil. You use something hot to create steam and then funnel that steam to a turbine. This turns heat into electricity. So it would be easy to regulate nuclear - you disconnect the breaker and move your generator to spinning reserve. This electricity generation capacity can be connected to the grid, or disconnected, at a moment's notice, of course after ensuring phase, frequency, and voltage are matched. So nuclear is absolutely able to have its output regulated, and not just over hours or days or weeks, but on the fly, in seconds. Just like all the other energy sources.
So nuclear is absolutely able to have its output regulated, and not just over hours or days or weeks, but on the fly, in seconds. Just like all the other energy sources
That sounds like you came up with it on your own based on physics of a kitchenboiler without looking into it the much more complicated restrictions:
(Even a gas turbine has exactly one optimal operating point you never leave and many forbidden resonance frequencies, just saying)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load-following_power_plant
This is the very best that is doable in theory but not in practice:
Modern nuclear plants with light water reactors are designed to have maneuvering capabilities in the 30-100% range with 5%/minute slope, up to 140 MW/minute.
Reality is much much worse. Especially because it doesn't make any sense to regulate it.
nuclear power generation is composed almost entirely of fixed and sunk costs so lowering the power output doesn't significantly reduce generating costs, so it was more effective to run them at full power most of the time.
This above is reality. It's regulatable on paper but if you look into historical data you see how much is realistic. They are super slow in real life and only if they really have to.
You're the one who said it can't be regulated. It can, as you described. Saying that they choose not to drop output is a totally different assertion. Nuclear would be an expensive spinning reserve, but it can be used in such a way, and of course it can be regulated to 0% very quickly by just disconnecting the breaker, and over minutes to hours via means you allude to.
Saying it's not regulated is false. It's just that it's a far better use of resources to use it as base generation and let the less reliable sources like solar and wind, and dirtier sources like natural gas and coal and oil, take up the more variable load.
of course it can be regulated to 0% very quickly by just disconnecting the breaker, and over minutes to hours via means you allude to.
Sure but this is a ping-pong regulation, it doesn't work with the stability of the electric network.
In the beginning PV plants worked the same: On/Off. But that is a risk as you introduce instabilites that could crash the entire electric network by causing resonance switching.
If it's possible or not is not a question if someone can push a button, but about systematic integrated possibility.
Here you see an overview
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load-following_power_plant
Like said (maybe somewhere a bit up iirc) nuclear is designed as base load. But base load won't exist much longer. Nuclear is a base load. There is just no more use case for them. We need 100% load following plants. Nuclear tried that and I even showed you the industry maximum values that would support your argument to keep them alive. But it's not enough. The ping-pong is no real approach, not even the industry proposed it as it wouldn't be accepted, hence not doable.
If you want to look for ping pong there is a nice example where it made sense though! But it was this mega battery of in Australia. It really can go online in parts of a second. So far the coal industry made a fuckton of money with the fastest energy response. But they were only economic in 3-20days a year due to these extreme price peaks (those dictate your price at home). With the battery and their velocity the economic use days of coal was then <1-2 day per year. The prices lowered massively and the stability increases.
Now what if we keep it as spinning reserve? (Fun side question, who shall pay for the non-delivered energy? They can't increase their nominal delivery price.)
Now we come close to the initial topic and let's close the circle to end where we started. Good you bring it up yourself. Where does the waste energy go, if you switch it off the network? Right, waste heat.
Now we do the initial calculation and we see currently use 0.4w/sqm with the >2% increase per year so we have 4w/sqm energy in a century as planet. If you rely on this technology (or fusion) and switch them off like you say it's pure entropy directly. (But also if you would use it, it ends up 100% additional entropy just somewhere else). Hence with the climate sensitivity this additional energy would cause an additional climate change rise of around 0.4-0.7 degree.
General/ off topic conclusion: there is no more use case for this tech. Expensive, barely regulatable (inside a network), consumes supply materials constantly with a large suppy chain, isn't climate neutral, "but at least" it's expensive.
The really interesting question for science with this new paper is however what do we do with non-even-yet-invented fusion?
You're making this way more complex than it needs to be.
The original statement you made, that nuclear power generation cannot be regulated, is false both theoretically and practically, as most nuclear plants, especially in France and other countries with a large installed base, load-follow quite routinely and are designed from the start to do so. France in fact has been designing their plants to load-follow since the 1980s.
The really interesting question is why you keep trying to change the topic from the point at hand, that you falsely claimed that nuclear generation cannot be regulated.
As for this: "Where does the waste energy go, if you switch it off the network?" -- You do not need to offload heat to turn down the power generation of a nuclear reaction, you can slow the nuclear reaction to reduce heat generation (moving gray/black control rods, chemical shimming, changing coolant flow rate, etc.). If taking it offline, for spinning reserve you do need to waste heat, but this is done very infrequently for nuclear. For maintenance newer designs like PWHR let you keep running at capacity while one unit is down.
their net effect is far, far lower than it seems from the raw output numbers.
The effect on how you rate the decision is far, far greater instead.
It shows there was really no damn calculation. Just hard feelings.
Mainly letting nuclear run means shutting down wind to prevent overpowering the network.
You can't have it both ways (nuclear didn't matter much anyway, and it would seriously disrupt the other energy sources too). Especially while germany is still burning gas eventually.
Nuclear can't be regulated so everything else needs to be shut off
France frequently does actually. It's not a complete on/off thing, but still.
Sure won't show here a calculation. There are even simple homepage where you can see the past values and real time values.
Their usage just means shutting off wind. It's more complicated with energy transport, but there are studies doing the dirt work. You see the same results with playing around with past data for yourself.
The coal in Germany is the same. Let nuclear run? Sure, if someone could show how. It's a mess. Operators want out of the technology. The effect is existing, it's around some low single digit percent. Nothing spectacular, but lot of talk and emotions while nobody shows how to cover 20-30%.
Well and the thing with energy off nuclear is shown in the linked nature paper. You add climate energy due to entropy of energy production of nuclear. Can't afford additional 0.3-0.7 degree.
Let nuclear run? Sure, if someone could show how.
...
Don't. Shut down. The plants that were already running.
Of course you can't undo a decision this month to the next, but I was talking about the whole goddamn energiewende.
You don't order to kill like, uh, a dozen plants after barely more than 30 years.
Operators want out of the technology.
Of course, who the hell would accept all the unpredictability of a lousy society?
but lot of talk and emotions while nobody shows how to cover 20-30%.
6 power plants were covering 13% of the country electricity needs in 2021, and all the others 24% up to 2011.
You add climate energy due to entropy of energy production of nuclear.
What in the heaven are you even talking about
Sure before renewable became a thing they were relevant..they are no longer.
Here is a short pic
https://twitter.com/scienceisstrat1/status/1601650724852895744
And like you say, unpredictability has a price. It's called regulator risk and your business case must have a certain robustness to survive. Wind and PV has that, they can be removed and leave your country with new regulations in an instant.
The other aspect is quite great, it's also why you hear these interesting aspects often in places like Nature. It's about the source of our energy demand. Nuclear and fission energy produced additional waste heat on creation of energy. Solar, tides, wind is however already in our atmosphere and you harvest it. Current energy usage is 0.04/sqm.
We need a bit more than 2% per year more of energy. This is 10x in a century. That is 0.4w/sqm.
This also happens locally like CO2 creation given reactors are where energy is needed. A part of the heat flux is emitted in space and lost. These effects are all already included in the IPCC climate sensitivity value.
Now if you create this energy by nuclear or fission you increase climate change by more than half a degree in addition.
Here is a short pic
Nothing of that is any relevant with this topic, nor with what we were discussing.
And like you say, unpredictability has a price.
Technological or environmental unpredictability, is not social unpredictability. What are you even talking about?
It's called regulator risk
It's called we live in a society dude, what the hell? You are responsible for the people responsible for deciding the regulations.
Nuclear and fission energy produced additional waste heat on creation of energy.
????????
I love the last part. Wouldn't it be nice if we could create energy..
It's also incredibly hard to find sites because people complain, protest, and vote against politicians who greenlight projects. And it has less to do with social justice warriors and more to do with NIMBYism.
You got brainwashed by various think tank influencers into believing that the reason nuclear isn't being adopted more is because of 'sjw environmentalist beta soyboys' to distract you from seeing that the real reason is short-term thinking driven by the 2/4-year election cycle and immediate-profit mentality driven by greedy investors?
Except public polling clearly shows that Nuclear energy is extremely controversial in many places. So yes, it is environmentalist voters blocking the expansion of Nuclear energy:
Compared to other European countries, Germans are therefore more skeptical about nuclear energy. While in Denmark - similar to Germany - only one in five (21 percent) thinks that nuclear energy should play a major role in the energy transition in their own country, the figure is 40 percent in Spain, 43 percent in Sweden and 45 percent in France of the respective respondents for the equivalent use of nuclear energy in their countries. Respondents in France are the most open-minded overall: three quarters of French respondents agree in principle with the use of nuclear energy.
Danish respondents are the most opposed to nuclear power: 37 percent of respondents think Denmark should not produce nuclear power. The French, on the other hand, are least likely to hold this view: only 9 percent reject the production of nuclear energy in their own country. In Germany, as in Italy, 28 percent have a negative attitude towards nuclear energy.
https://www.nucnet.org/news/half-of-germans-see-role-for-nuclear-in-new-europe-wide-survey-12-1-2021
Not sure how you can push to make more nuke plants when only 20-45% of most countries support it. Good luck winning an election.
Let me guess, you're trying to sound clever and think you succeeded?
Nice strawman. So, the only explanation that someone has a different opinion then you about nuclear power can only be brainwashing. Always good to know who discusses in good faith.. and who doesn't.
I would agree with your statement most of the time, but I think in Germany nuclear power has gotten abandoned specifically because of the german climate activists. For some fucking reason they really hate nuclear energy over there.
For some fucking reason they really hate nuclear energy over there.
Its because of Chernobyl. Soup Emporium has a fantastic video on the aftereffects of Chernobyl that includes a timeline of EU reactions to it. A lot of countries long lasting views on nuclear energy stem from this period. For example, the reason the climate activists in Germany dislike nuclear energy is because they first formally formed in response to Chernobyl. You can't easily get rid of long standing cultural momentum like that.
I recommend that whole video by the way. It is an excellent examination of nuclear energy and our responses to it.
Have you gone to leftist political events? A big older block of voters n activists are all anti-nuclear.
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You keep parroting "bad short-term investment" like it's a legitimate criticism.
Railroads or highways weren't a good short-term investment. Maybe things necessary to life and health shouldn't be calculated on how much returns they'll give to shareholders. Fuck off.
It's bad for investment because the numerous protests that follow everytime a new reactor is proposed dramatically increases it's cost of construction.
Right because nuclear energy is famously privatized and funded by private sources. Guess what kind of bodies make long term investments like ports and infrastructure? The government. Guess who decides who runs that? Political voters and activists..
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Considering we're in Europe and considering the majority of European nuclear plants are either government owned or owned by companies with a vast majority government stake (like EDF which is 80% owned by the French government), not really? Downturn in nuclear construction and shutting down of nuclear plants can be directly traced to large events that dictated political viability of nuclear energy..
Not sure how you're getting away with blatant disinformation but packaging bullshit nicely is still bullshit.
Even in the US most nuclear power is private but subsidized and partially funded by the US government. Look into the EPA 2005 bill or DoE loans.
Because there's no guarantee of long term political support.
You could say the same thing about trees, but very few people would argue against planting trees because it might take a decade or two before you can sit under it's shade or eat it's fruit.
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Imagine we had built renewable energies that don't create radioactive waste and goes online much quicker instead?
If the EU track record on nuclear power plants is anything to go by, if we started building reactors in 2015, we'd now be about a decade of delays in with billions of budget overruns. Maybe in 2035 they'd start coming online.
Suffice to say that it would have done nothing for the energy crisis. For that we would have needed to start building nuclear plants in the 90s. And even then its dubious if it would have helped since the main issue is natural gas, which is used for heating and industrial ends. Both things that aren't easily switched to electricity.
I mean even authoritarian states like china are struggling a LOT with building nuclear plants fast. If we consider prize it gets even worse.
Yea, nuclear is basically useless when it comes to a problem we procrastinated on and need a quick fix for like climate change. All the nuclear cadets that are touting it as the big silver bullet for climate change must be living in the 90s or something. Anyone who goes for nuclear nowadays is wasting time and money that would be better spend on renewables.
All the nuclear cadets that are touting it as the big silver bullet for climate change must be living in the 90s or something
Ironically I feel like they are the ones brainwashed by the fossile industry.
Im not so sure tbh. Nuclear in Germany is mainly a talking point of neoliberals, I mean yes part of them is bought by the fossile industry but I think a more important part is ideology. Nuclear sounds more „Hightech“ „science“ „male“ „rational“ than renewables and they promise a solution without change. So it’s mainly aiming on slightly progressiv people who accept climate change as a problem but don’t want a fundamental change. And Reddit in Germany/Europe is mainly young, male, progressive with a tech background and usually pretty decently paid. So nuclear is perfect to prove that you „more rational than those whining hippies who fear the power of nuclear because they don’t understand it“. That’s why they argue often about safety while in public discussion safety as a problem only plays a background argument ( that changed a lot in the last 20 years) and it’s mainly about cost, speed of building new plants, impossible maintenance of 40 year old plants and again a heavy russian influence in supply chains.
Most big german energy companies, especially the one who run the last remaining nuclear plant, are openly against more/longer nuclear. It seems it’s even to expensive for them.
Wait what? Keeping the nukes that were already built isn’t a good short term investment? Long term operation of nukes is literally the cheapest energy we have. To add, keeping them open would have saved 3 to 8 billion a year and saved many lives.
policy. We find that reductions in nuclear electricity production were offset primarily by increases in coal-fired production and net electricity imports. Our estimates of the social cost of the phase-out range from €3 to €8 billion per year. The majority of this cost comes from the increased mortality risk associated with exposure to the local air pollution emitted when burning fossil fuels. Policymakers would have to significantly overestimate the risk or cost of a nuclear accident to conclude that the benefits of the phase-out exceed its social costs.
https://academic.oup.com/jeea/article-abstract/20/3/1311/6520438
Yeah but T H O R I U M will solve everything, you just wait.
Wait until you hear about the fusion!
Thorium and small modular reactors are 10 years away - Every nuclear cultist for the past 6 decades.
Nooo you don't understand we are THIS close to it just one more decade I swear bro!!!
Hydrogen cars are the future maaaaaaaaaaaaan
Someone should walk up to you and explain the difference between would, should and could.
True, if future technologies ^TM come one time there's no need for us to do anything about the environment or admit that any current living standard is straight unsustainable, the true neolib dream. Must've missed F U S I O N solving our energy crisis as it should've, 60 years ago we were told it's only 30 years away, aaaany day now.
If you keep voting FDP that might even come true one day! Same way you can keep driving your V6 or V8 because E F U E L S solve everything.
Must've missed F U S I O N solving our energy crisis as it should've, 60 years ago we were told it's only 30 years away, aaaany day now.
You say this when scientific breakeven was just achieved, Lmao.
Yes, investing into fusion would've been prudent thing to do; but that would've required long term planning which we are not very capable of.
Anyway, keep that copium running it will surely power the solar future of Germany. Oh wait, it's going to be coal instead.
You say this when scientific breakeven was just achieved
It wasn't achieved. Yes, they had a net gain from the power "sent" directly into the process by Laser (2,3 "sent", 3.2 gained afaik) but used 300 to power up the Laser.
So, tell me how is that "even"?
That's the scientific breakeven, because it's limited to the fusion process itself. When you factor in ignition, equipment, etc. then you're talking about economic breakeven; which is what you have in mind. It won't take long for us to accomplish that at all now; funding is also increasing with each year.
Fact is that it's a huge milestone, fusion is completely viable. The sad thing is that we've known this to be true in a theoretical framework for ~100 years.
Won’t take long ? On what base are you so confident.
Simple, funding. In 2022 the collective private funding for fusion exceeded that of public funding. Private investment is also on the rise in general. You can also look at the history of various breakthroughs pertaining to fusion itself and you will see that last 3-4 years alone have been as productive as the preceding ~8years. Gears only really start moving at large scale when private sector gets involved, government funded institutions innovate and pioneer; private sector commercializes and puts the product out on the market.
That doesn't necessarily mean we'll keep on this track of course, but considering the theoretical framework for this technology is sound and has been proven; that material science is advanced enough for us to achieve economic breakeven...it's going to happen. You can also look at ITER for example. The current predictions are that it will produce about 10x times as much power efficiency as the recent NIF test, that's going to attract a ton of investment.
The first commercial company that's planning a reactor is already around(so far securing $2 billion), I don't think they'll succeed because it's too early; but the first company that does succeed is going to be the winner. A lot of people will want to be the firsts with this tech.
Another point to consider is China's contributions and advancements in the last ~5years, they've been competing very well with western projects. Considering USA and China are heading into an eventual geopolitical conflict, there's going to be a lot of pressure on both sides to eek out every advantage in a myriad of fields; this one is important. Another thing is how much these sorts of projects transcend international issues, Russia as you probably know has been cut off from vast majority of western institutions or otherwise severely limited. Well, not in nuclear fusion sector since they're a big part of ITER, even till today. Just tells me that a lot of countries are putting this tech on a high pedestal and are working hard to make it succeed; even in spite of everything else that's happening.
We hit 1,5C in less than 10 years. 2C in about 20.
It seems that as early as 2026 we will have periods above 1,5C.
We don’t have 10 years. We have to build now. And the only option we have now is renewables. And if we would commit enough it would be enough. But we still hoping for some miracle tech that will fix this. But there is now fixing once a ecosystem is collapsing. We might have enough power to use carbon capture but this would bring back what died out until than.
Let me guess, you got brainwashed into thinking nuclear is a great investment over the long term when there's cheaper ways to produce energy that doesn't require 10+ years of planning and construction and another 10 years to break even, and then another 10,000 years of waste liability...
Everything is profit driven.
Curious what you think a good energy solution for Germany would be? Germany can’t rely on solar power or wind because it’s not sunny or windy enough. They have one of the highest solar and wind capacities per capita yet they get ~15% of their energy from renewables. Most of their energy comes from lignite coal! A fossil fuel dirtier then oil or gas. Kind of ironic how the most environmentally progressive country in earth is so reliant on coal.
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germanys-2022-renewable-power-production-rises-still-behind-2030-target-2022-12-11/
"Renewable energy is expected to account for around 46% of German power consumption this year, up from 41% a year earlier, the agency said in its annual report"
That source is inaccurate. The '46%' figure they're quoting only applies to energy sources used to generate electricity ( source from the actual agency that the Reuter's article is quoting ). This figure doesn't account for the energy consumption of transportation which is much larger. If you factor that in the renewable energy drops to around 20% (a little higher than the 15% I originally quoted but close enough). The point is this: Germany has spent so much money building out its solar and wind infrastructure despite not being sunny or windy simply to virtue signal that they're being progressive so the liberal politicians can retain their voter base.
How is Germany not sunny or windy? Have you ever been to the Breisgau or Northsea?
No offence but do you think your personal anecdote is enough to justify the argument that solar and wind are good sources for those areas? Here's a good graphic depicting where solar and wind makes sense (https://twitter.com/PeterZeihan/status/1074648057512366080/photo/1)
Yeah, no thanks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratfor
Nuclear is great, but it's not a good investment on the short term.
OK, do a long-term investment then. Oh wait, environmentalist 17th century French literature majors protested against that and now Germany has a power shortage so they have to destroy villages and forests to dig more coal.
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It's not viable due to corporate greed and short-term political thinking.
Nuclear power plants are being built all over the place. Your argument doesn't work.
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How is corporate greed holding back new plants? Surely there are firms ready to construct them but they are held back by regulatory red tape.
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Sounds like a government problem, then. It’s odd to characterize corps as “greedy” when we know that their entire purpose is to generate profit with minimal risk. As nuke power is inherently costly up-front, it’s up to gov incentives to pave the way.
It’s not the market’s fault that nuclear is complex and costly.
Then tell me how Sweden got a new government on the promise of new nuclear reactors. Not all countries have really short-sighted politicians.
Kristersson did just have a meeting with Macron on this issue.
environmentalist 17th century French literature majors
You literally sound like an alt right douchbag.
I'm not. I'm just saying that Greenpeace douchebags caused a lot of harm with their anti-nuclear campaigns.
It's France, that has a power shortage.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-04/how-much-power-does-germany-export-to-france
There was even a recent study in Nature showing that the general concept of nuclear (or even fusion) is non sustainability for humanity.
It simply doesn't work... Why?
In short: it release energy that was not in the atmosphere before. Sounds as a non problem for now, but would be if you rely on nuclear.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-022-01652-6
Meanwhile solar or photovoltaic just harvest energy that is already present. Heck if you read love fusion one should stick to photovoltaics to harvest our free fusion reactor.
Last time i worked in solar the efficiency of pv cells were abysmal. I haven't kept up but i doubt it's much above 20% (in real life conditions, not lab tested)
Your numbers are somewhere in the realistic range. There isn't a problem with that. It's around 27-28% for triple layer cells (max), but you don't buy those.
Cost goes down fast, total output of installed power goes parabolic. That's quite good and it completes wind nicely for the season variability.
In any case you can't combine the two it well with nuclear. It's visible best at night when you can cover 100% with wind, hence nuclear would need to be shut off. But it can't, hence you shut off wind. Which leaves a lot on the table.
In the past nuclear was nice for base load, which will no longer exist in the future (~0%) due to the expanding energy mix (no baseload but full throttable residual power necessary).
Now with the thermodynamic effect of additional energy you add around 0.3-0.7 degree global warming if you rely on nuclear (climate sensitivity). That's not something that seems attractive in the eye of simpler alternatives with low entry barriers.
I never considered that aspect of nuclear energy. Sounds interesting I will read about it if i can find any papers for free. Wouldn't the same thing happen to wind though? All the electricity we generate will eventually end up as heat one way or another won't it?
I didn't think about it either, but it's obvious once you notice it.
I could not find a free downloads of the paper so I googled around and also found this interesting explanation about it. Paper download link is included in the comments.
https://twitter.com/rahmstorf/status/1605967891928596481
Lol this just seems like some degrowth paper
It's thermodynamics. Can't lower entropy.
Entropy exists in all kinds of things, like when you manufacture renewables. Nuclear energy can last us till the sun burns out.
Then do the balance and publish a paper please?
Would love to see if their calculations are wrong if you have different results.
Why are renewables immune to entropy exactly? We live on a finite planet. Your paper even admits this and it doesn’t even talk about nuclear energy.
https://whatisnuclear.com/nuclear-sustainability.html
They are not immune at all.
You able need to make an end2end calculations. It's a lot of work to include the entire supply chain.
The links is something else, it shows everything is limited which is fine. The aspect discussed is about the additional introduced waste energy. With wind and solar it is already in our atmosphere. Fusion and nuclear will create new waste heat right here on earth.
I doubt you will find much websites outside of the papers and some Twitter links I posted, it's quite new.
Nuclear supply chain is quite obviously much more intensive than some windmills. Built time alone superseeds 20years and you consume a material which has a supply chain. (But I didn't dig out the numbers).
So yes, end2end entropy for both.
The thermodynamic limits explored above, for instance, apply to any energy technology we care to imagine.
Everything has to be extracted and manufactured.
Average build time in the world for nuclear is about 6-8 years. Germany used to be able to do it as quick as 4-5 years when they had the expertise, China hitting about the same for some of theirs now too.
extracted and manufactured
Sure but it doesn't stop there...extracted and manufactured and maintenaned and feeded
Once finished you continue and continue to need to supply it with nuclear materials. An entire supply chain where everyone want to take profits and has also a supply chain of companies.
Meanwhile the others stuff once installed is near maintenance free. And complete free from external material feeding.
Built time with western standard is 20+ years. Also with cost overruns obviously. UK is a current example. That is just economics, and even there it won't turn into profit anymore over its lifetime before its beeing finished. (Nicely subsidizes with way too high price guarantee from the state, otherwise you wouldn't even finish it anymore).
Better start making the long term investments now though.
Funny someone from Denmark is talking about brainwashing regarding sources of energy...
...the real reason is short-term thinking driven by the 2/4-year election cycle...
Here's an interview with Nick Clegg, former Deputy Prime minister of the UK, from 2010 rubbishing nuclear because it would not help in the short-term.
Part of his reasoning: It would only have come online in 2021/2022.
So I agree with you, down with short-term thinking!
Nuclear is great
Let me guess. YOU'RE the one whose brainwashed! Something something politics and economics and I also think nuclear is great actually.
...?
You might wanna look at yourself before you throw that "brainwashed" term around, just saying :P
Nuclear power is amazing. Simple fact. Beats fossil fuels by miles.
Nuclear power is amazing. Simple fact.
Of course, oh enlightened one. You know all the facts. You don't even have to argue for them or give any proof. After all, it is self evident that producing nuclear waste is amazing!!
Sure beats fossil emissions! Unless you like living in smog, and destroying nature.
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Then what is up with your whole sjw bit? You just randomly assume someone is brainwashed for saying it is amazing, then say they are brainwashed, following with the same conclusion?
You ready to store the waste under your house?
Yes, that is indeed how most of the open-pit mines look.
There's many different ways of mining uranium, right over the german border in Czechia there are many deep shaft uranium mines that were abandoned due to low demand for uranium in ~ 2017, with others slowly being decomissioned.
Apparently EU production is not prefferable to Russian gas.
If that mine was anything like on the German side, it's not much prettier than open pit mining. Severe ecological damage to this day.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wismut_(Unternehmen)#Umweltsch%C3%A4den_und_Sanierung
Still preferable to coal and (Russian) gas, but you all are acting like nuclear is some fairy tale clean energy from la-la-land.
All I see is them arguing in favour of using nuclear over coal. No la-la-landing what so ever. (as this relates to German and near German delving and Germany sure loves coal)
When comparing the dangers of coal vs nuclear, I doubt theres a real health and safety argument to make in favour of coal. I'd love to see some perspectives though so please do change my mind.
Why mine for uranium when there's so many old bombs just laying around?
Most uranium come from in-situ leeching now, essentially just fracking and it’s much better for the environment.
Most uranium in Czechia or most uranium elsewhere?
Because I know we have only one mine that does in situ leeching, and several more "normal" ones.
Should have clarified, sorry. A majority in the US and also globally I believe.
Amazing photo, we need more of these things, they look so cool
What do you think a mine for the raw materials of solar-panels and wind turbines looks like? The difference is the scale of how much material you need, and due to it's insanely high energy density you simply need a whole lot less mining for nuclear than for any other power source.
True, but due to billions of years of natural decay, uranium ores not exactly brimming with the stuff. To get the goods with insane energy density, you have to mine and refine like crazy.
That's why fusing smaller atoms is so attractive - they are not exactly hard to find. :)
and due to it's insanely high energy density
The purified compound has very high energy density, but the concentration in the ground is very low and you lose a lot of material during enrichment.
That's so tiny compared to the brown coal mines of Germany.
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/dsc_0022.jpg
But its wholesome reddit nuclear, it couldn't possibly have any drawbacks as an energy source?
EDIT: Renewables > nuclear >> fossil fuels. Obviously everything has an environmental cost, nuclear just has a massive Reddit circlejerk going that ignores how long it actually takes to build a reactor and how much it costs relative to renewables.
The strip mines for rare metals needed for solar panels look the same.
But we don't have to bury broken solar panels and wind turbines for millenniums.
True, we'll be gone way before that because we're stuck arguing which would be better instead of building both to get rid of coal and oil.
it's not perfect so let's pick the alternative which is 100x worse
Genius
You should check out a coal mine to see its beauty
I mean thats were we started in this thread :D
Like the browncoal being mined here because activists also protested against nuclear power?
Compared to all other energy sources, yeah, it is one with least drawbacks and risks.
That is very far from the truth. Nuclear has tons of drawbacks and tons of risks. For example, France losing most of their energy production last year is one of the major risks with nuclear that is unfortunately still being talked about way too little. UN even recommends now avoiding power plants that require fresh water.
For example, France losing most of their energy production last year is one of the major risks with nuclear that is unfortunately still being talked about way too little.
And there are countless commenters here that suggest that Germany should look at France, while Germany is actually exporting energy to France.
Because where you need one ton on coal, you can just use one uranium fuel pellet. Nuclear power need very little materials, especially if you start recycling your combustible. Nothing beat the energy density of uranium.
But you can't just mine uranium; it's in other stuff.
The largest uranium resource is currently the Olympic Dam deposit in South Australia with at least 8.4 billion tonnes of ore and an average of 0.028% uranium by weight.
and weight is clearly in uranium's favour as it is one of the heaviest elements.
Still cleaner that everything else https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-per-energy-source (land use also take into account the mining materials for construction, fuel inputs, decommissioning and recycling). Nothing beat nuclear on this aspect.
everything has drawbacks mate. its about what has the least amount right now.
I get the feeling that leaking and melting reactors just get brushed under the carpet.
you mean all of those accidents i can count on one hand that killed basically no people contrary to thousands throught respiratory issues from dirty air? go on your claims arent supported by numbers at all.
Germany is burning lignite - the most inefficient type of coal - because of people like you LOL
Germany could build them them in about 4 years sometimes when they had the expertise and supply chains. Not bad!
Misunderstood! Vewy much UwU poor nuclear, gets bullied all the time :(((
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Germany has fuel production and enrichment (french owned). Also lots of spend nuclear fuel. They just do not have anything to burn the newly produced fuel.
That is what they shut down first with protests...
Completely different people.
I am not so sure.
They are way too young.
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I am pro nuclear you moron.
Fuuuxk Reddit is pissing me off wrong fucking thread
What made you feel like that comment added anything? Even if you hate what the photo shows, it's an amazing photo. You had an opportunity to contribute and add and instead chose to diminish yourself.
We are what we do friend. You can be better.
[removed]
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The original comment may be found here.
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This looks like a loading screen for a dystopian video game
LOADING - Guards have a harder time detecting you at night. Stay away from light sources to remain unseen.
Tip #5: you can find tips at the bottom of loading screens.
Tip #6: Switching to your pistol is always faster than reloading.
The numbers mason what do they mean
Tip #7: Running is like walking, only faster.
Tip #8: The best way to defeat your enemies is to reduce thier HP to zero before they reduce your HP to zero.
Press F to pay respect!
Tip#7:try to keep your hp above zero
Tip #7: Wearing armour helps.
Tip #16 - When your health falls to zero, you die.
Tip #8: Necromancy curses the undead to use non-metric units
Tip: when you're having trouble with an enemy, try shooting more bullets at it.
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Whoa HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Horizon: ~~Forbidden~~ Verboten West
Better than the 1939 hit Horizon: Verboten East
honestly the east wasn't really verboten, it was very much fair game
All a wall is just some bricks with no hole
It isn't really a wall it is more of a room divider.
Enough with the Maginot line slander T_T my boy tried
That was actually a joke about the DDR/BRD-Border.
That flew way over my head then lmao, somewhat like the Luftwaffe
Verbotener Westen. (SCNR)
Good news, everyone !
You're already playing it
It's a lot easier to earn money in Cyberpunk 2077 and Deus Ex, though. I can't simply sell random junk that I find irl :/
r/ebay
Just from personal experience I can say that selling random junk on ebay is really shitty. There's so much work involved in the process of selling something from start to finish that it's just too tedious to deal with selling anything under like $20. And when you're dealing in junk most of it is selling for like $5 and it's just not worth it. Especially if you have to sift through even more worthless junk to find the junk that's worth $5-20.
William Shatner's old toupee?!
They had it on E-Bay!!
Life time collector and dealer of antiques here - just wanted to let you know that you sure can!
Can't exactly collect a bunch of tech rifles from goons or a 100 random bottles of whiskey and resell them for a couple hundred Euros haha
But you can, it's just "illegal" to steal guns from the "law enforcement"
I applaud your choice of phrases to put in quotes
If you go to the Middle East or Africa you can make it work.
Or detroit
Nah, it's easy! Just go to your doctor, sell them some guns, a fake gold chain, a deck of cards, a few grenades, and a hat.
Also can't just go around shooting people, unless you are an American highschool kid
The cops don't look that hard when it's heavy drug users or gangbangers.
American schools sure are wild these days
Not even seasoned veteran police will dare go in there, they could get shot!
The secret ingredient is crime.
You're right, you'd get a lot more from the whiskey
I mean there's junkers that drive by every wednesday night looking for that sweet large pickup metal items.
actually you can, but those games don't have a 'destroyed back' meter like there is in this game.
I made $200 in 8 hours of work thrift flipping a bunch of Brooks Brothers and Polo Ralph Lauren pants that I found for a dollar a pair. The problem is it's a lot more fun in a video game when you just press a button and don't have to pack envelopes and ship them by the dozens just to make $10 each.
Plenty of people do sell things on r/Dumpsterdiving
But you can sell yourself on Onlyfans, which is the irl version of selling random junk.
You can
Why can't you sell random junk irl? No flea markets, pawn shops, garage sales, or 10 neighborhood dope dealers where you're at? They buy anything, either with dope or cash...
Metal dumpster divers would disagree.
The equivalent today is selling meth
Games allow you to play them. Reality has no such benefit.
up your charisma stat
r/outside is the support community for the game.
/r/collapse is the backstory
Graphics are super realistic, but gameplay is kinda annoying, tbh. Difficulty really needs to be overhauled.
Gotta nerf some characters
They amped up the grind because they knew complaining about the grind distract from noticing how bare bones the systems are.
Ed Dammit autocorrect
Mmorpg moment
Oh SWEET what's my role? Eco terrorist with a shady past? Rich corporate shill who secretly aids the Gaians? Or maybe I have amnesia, and can play either side, so that I get to decide the fate of the planet in the last act?
This game isn’t very fun. I hope i can get a refund.
It's pay to win, though
I'm really not a fan of how /r/outside keeps moving closer and closer into the dystopian genre.
The graphics are amazing, but the gameplay really sucks, and it's only getting worse.
I read this as professor Farnsworth.
Mission accomplished then
Half-Life 3 confirmed
/r/ABoringDystopia
Got that 23 K/D, I'm doing alright
It fucking sucks, it’s just a grind
For us Germans:
You're already paying it
/r/outside
And losing.
Can I get a refund
r/Outside
The graphics are amazing! The open world is getting more and more closed off though ...
But we didn't pay for it... Yet
I would say it's free for all but that's only the trial period (first 18 years)
The grind is something else in this game though. 0/10 would not recommend.
This co-op mode sucks. Why did I end up as this loser?
How do I start a new game
well, that wasn't a very fun fact at all
...damn.
r/UsernameChecksOut
Gotta admit I laughed
My man!
Surprised noone said Nier: Automata.
Thank you!
It breaks my heart that more people haven’t played this game.
Same. That game left such a mark on me that my gut reaction to seeing the extractor was "not fucking Engels again".
An anime adaptation is coming out this month so maybe more people will try the game.
Just played last night for the first time... its exactly the first boss
“Goooooooooood morning Night City!!”
Heard a radio news report in the game the other day talking about a "terrorist group calling themselves a 'trade union' attempting to withhold their labor," something like that, and laughed so hard when I realized the "terrorist group" they were talking about were just some workers going on strike.
But man, irl, we really do treat the people who are fighting to save the planet as the bad guys, and the people ripping it apart to burn as good folks just trying to make a few billions.
Looks like an actual loading screen for Red Faction Guerilla, for the district with the big excavator
Given that these troops are protecting the fossile industry from the will of the people... Pretty accurate description.
Welcome to reality.
The german state erases villages so that huge energy corporations can poison us and our planet for profits
People don't realise just how fucked up the whole thing is. In Lützerath alone they removed more wind turbines that have been built in the entire country since 2016. All that for fucking coal, to make some rich assholes a bit richer.
Well what do you except when they literally remove the soil? Also funny how most wind turbines aren't even that old to then be demolished a few years later because of monstrosities like these
You have a source for that? I was curious about it and as far as I've found they've only taken out 8 turbines so far and are planning to take out another 5 by 2025.
I have seen more than 13 wind mills being build in germany since 2016..... and I rarely leave the house
Yeah their comment sounds really questionable. The only thing I have heard is that they demolished newly build wind turbines because of the lignite mine. Which is kind of funny
Jep. Old contracts and a "friendly" state government... But there is a reason for the cops in front. Not everybody here likes what they are doing...
I’m too lazy to Google and can’t see lignite balls being a joke so what’s lignite
It's a type of coal but soft and filled with sulfur. Pretty much the worst combustible still in use.
they removed more wind turbines that have been built in the entire country since 2016.
[citation needed]
Because energy grows on trees you fucking idiot.
I only the Germans could be rational about nuclear power and not have killed it...
People panic when they hear about radiation, never bothering to actually check and look up how dangerous it actually is... Radiation is one of those things you really need to quantify or you'll be running from bananas.
there's no village getting erased lol
Rust
Came here for this! The Giant Excavator monument also has a Bagger 293 just like this and all the scientists defending it.
Somebody threatens your life: "Sorry, the police have no duty to protect."
Somebody threatens property: *Police line up around it holding shields 24/7.*
Almost as if those paid by the state to project power are beholden to reigning political interests...
It it literally looks like the mines in God of war.
"Current objective: Protect the Mechtitan until it's powered up!"
But I want the opposite objective.
I can do that, but it's more Tom Clancy: "Current objective: Infiltrate the mining facility and sabotage the mechtitan before it's powered up!"
Shinra from FFVII was my first thought.
DAE when video games weren’t woke /s
Looks like the imperial dig site on Zeffo in the Jedi Fallen Order game
It is a dystopian video game. It's called real life
But it’s real life! Yay!
Nah mate, just our dystopian reality.
In the survival game Rust, there is a monument on the map called the Giant Excavator where the Ai enemies, the scientists, spawn.
This looks almost exactly like that lol
r/ABoringDystopia
I was trying to figure out what that was. Like is it some massive machine behind them
Probably this thing or one of its slightly smaller cousins.
Literally Metal Gear Solid
This is literally in Fallout 76 if you replace the Guards with Mole Miners
Immediately got Avatar vibes from this.
This is basically the Rust giant excavator monument complete with the npc enemies.
Are you, are you coming to the tree
Could be a loading screen for Millennium Dawn (Hearts of Iron 4 Mod)
BAGGER 293 - rise of the machines
Caption: The elite guard protects the world engine.
Look up a game called rust. There’s literally a large excavator protected by guys.
You can find it in call of duty black ops.
"Loading 2023"
You just reached level 2. No savepoint though!
You’ve given me an idea
Life is a dystopian game.
Exactly, I thought of arasaka guards from cyberpunk
Nier Automata first boss exactly
/r/Outside
We live in this dystopian world.
Galicia is amazing 😊
the sad dystopian reality we live in
Kenshi
Was looking for this.
We are living in a capitalist dystopia
I was thinking movie poster. It's about a mining facility on the moon, with forced prison labor, and the workers organize a revolt.
yep
Looks like something from the stalker series
It is - r/outside
I scrolled past this story multiple times today without even reading the title because I thought it was a sponsored ad for some shitty video game based on the picture
Why is it that redditors compare real life to video games so often? What are you adding?
Looks like the Rock Quarry level in Control
Made me think of Gears of War at first glance.
Warning, Excavator Pi will cause decompression of Tunnel 6.
stellaris
As gross as this machine is I'm still strangely proud at humanities response to "we need coal". Oh you need coal motherfucker? It's about to get real!
Where do you think dystopian games get their ideas :(
Nope. Reality is dystopian.
It was invented thanks to them after all. 😊
Bagger 288 - no really
Bagger! Bagger! Bagger 288!!!!!
the leaders of the world sat down around a secret table
Beelzebub now fears the BAGGER 288!!!
Bagger 288! Bagger 288!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azEvfD4C6ow
Mushroom Mushroom
Snaaaake!
At last someone gets it.
Badger Badger Badger Badger Badger Badger
Swimming in the ocean
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIyixC9NsLI
Bring up the wolfs head.
In Croatia we say "bager".
Yes, we mostly use ~~stolen~~ borrowed German words for construction tool and equipment.
rovnako aj po slovensky
The reason is that when the first tools were brought to people who didn't know them, they usually called it by the original name. That's how linguists can help antropologists to decipher how people have moved in the past
Exactly. Also sometimes things get named after their brand. Because first "thing" which came had it's brand name written over it.
For us žilet is razor. Žilet = Gillette.
For us Penkala means pen. Penkala is a brand of pen, and was also the brand of the first mechanical pen.
In Austria glue is often called Uhu after the largest glue brand here. Adhesive tape is similarly called Tixo.
Here, glue is often called "uhucola", expecially by older people.
I just Googled and there is a glue "cola" made by Uhu... Uhu-cola :D
Frižider, Selote(j)p, Džip i Džondir. At least here in Serbia.
E, odakle nam selo-tejp?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sellotape
Isto marka lepljive trake.
we also have something called Jar in former Czechoslovakia because it was the single one dishwashing liquid available and so years and years after many other options became available, you always go to the shop to buy "jar", not a "dish washing agent"
same goes with "šmalc" (pig fat) or all kinds of mining tools that the Germans have brought
We have "Čarli" (Charlie). Also the first, and for a long time the only dishwashing liquid :D
Also you know.... the surname of the the inventor of the damm thing.
I know.
Just like...
Ferdinand von Zeppelin started a company called Zeppelin.
Which produced Zeppelins.
One of those zeppelins was named after it's inventor LZ 127 Graf Zeppelin
I love these sorts of linguistic tidbits. It has become a small pastime of mine to look at words and try to go as deep as I can on where they came from. You come across many more weird things on the way than you'd ever imagine.
I can give you one such thing:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kr%C3%A1ka
https://slovnik.aktuality.sk/pravopis/?q=kr%C3%A1ka (the sound a crow would make https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvBiH3kUTzo )
now go down the rabbit hole and try to explain how much coincidence you need to have the same word in Old Norse and modern Slovak lang at the same time
That's a fun one, thanks!
don't you also have words like Gastarbijter and Sackzement or something like that?
Gastarbijter
Gastrabajter - A somewhat derogatory term, for somebody working outside of the country. Especially working in Germany.
and Sackzement
Cement ... well cement.
We change them a bit so we can speak them more fluently.
Also we say "Bauštela" for construction work/site, and "Bauštelac" for construction worker.
So I'm already guessing that "Bau" is German for construction, building?
It's funny, because the original word: Gastarbeiter, or guest worker, doesn't really sound that bad. But I guess words obtain connotations.
And yes, bau- is the root meaning build, and German has lots of words constructed with it
We love making funny negative stereotypes about everything, so Gastarbeiter are not an exception.
Correct. Baustelle would be a construction site and Bauarbeiter a construction worker.
And what would "stelle" mean?
EDIT: sometimes we say "arbajt" for work, more specifically hard work :D
Stelle means place/location. So "Bau-Stelle" translates 1 to 1 into "Construction-Site"
Lot of cultures do that. It's called a loanword.
I know, it's just that... we rarely borrow German words, except when it comes to tools and equipment. Then most of the names are borrowed from Germany. Even when there is an official Croatian word, usually German word is preferred.
Most of our workers had worked in Germany for at least some time, so it does make a lot of sense.
For the uneducated swine:
Ah, the Golden Age of Internet.
Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.
Until you remember that around that time you also saw Bud Dwyer shoot himself and your first beheading.
Golden age of internet was as dark and scary as it was awesome.
Nah, just awesome.
You could find all of that way before 2000's and still can. It's just what you chose to see, not the time itself.
Hell, we should send that thing into Ukraine, the war would be over a week later
Russian steel exports to Ukraine in form of tanks had been incredible!
Are tanks recyclable?
Russia was the largest provider of arms to ukraine last year.
I feel like that would violate the Geneva Convention.
The Bagger 288 does not care for our puny human laws
Many believe the allies defeated Nazi germany but in truth Hitler was shown a blueprint of Bagger 288 and killed himself shortly after out of fear
Why would he? That thing was built by German company Krupp (now Thyssen-Krupp), one of the largest weapons suppliers of Germany during both world wars.
Unfortunately it has a top speed of 0.6km/h, so it'll take a while.
If Germans weren't so hesistant it would be already half way to Ukraine by now!
Ahh yes, big steel donation
To end the occupation
Problem is, even at its top speed it would take years to get there (when they moved Bagger 288 from Hambach to Garzweiler in 2001 over a distance of 22 kilometers it took three weeks). And you'd need a long cable, because that thing runs on externally supplied electricity.
ChatGPT already provided the narrative:
It was a dark and stormy night in Ukraine when the first bombs began to fall. The Russian army had launched a surprise attack, and the Ukrainian defenders were caught off guard. For weeks, the fighting raged on, with both sides suffering heavy casualties.
As the situation grew increasingly dire, the Ukrainian government appealed to its allies for help. Germany responded by sending its largest and most powerful weapon: the massive Bagger 288 bucket-wheel excavator.
As the Russian forces advanced, the Bagger 288 moved slowly but surely towards the front lines. Its massive size and formidable digging power proved to be more than a match for the enemy's tanks and artillery. One by one, the Russian units were crushed under its wheels or dug up and tossed aside like toys.
In the end, the Bagger 288 proved to be the turning point in the war. The Russian army was forced to retreat, and Ukraine emerged victorious. The people of Ukraine rejoiced at their hard-won victory, and the Bagger 288 became a national hero, hailed as the savior of their nation.
or maybe a "Schwerer Gustav" (again?)
Problem is: Bagger 288 only purpose is hated and death. Bagger 288 cases not from whence the blood flows.
How did I not know about the existence of this master piece.
First decade on the internet, eh?
No but I probably did other stuff on some other side of the Internet that you haven't heard of
"De-meated" lmao
I immediately checked comments to ensure this link was present.
I started watching that, was getting annoyed by the tik-tockish singing. And then the fox jumped. I haven't laughed that hard in a while. Thank you.
When that vid was created, the tiktok devs where still in school.
And tiktokers themselves weren’t even born
How can you link a rathergood video and not mention this masterpiece
Truly a masterpiece
The picture around 1:31 is just absurd
^(Channel Name: Rathergood, Video Length: [02:18])^, ^Jump ^5 ^secs ^earlier ^for ^context ^@01:26
^^Downvote ^^me ^^to ^^delete ^^malformed ^^comments. ^^Source ^^Code ^^| ^^Suggestions
Roftl
Thanks for sharing this
Damn that's great
besides the video the top comment under it is comedy gold;
What worries me is that the Germans have at least 287 more somewhere🤣🤣🤣🤣
This machine was build to protect humanity. Why must it be protected from a few humans.
If they let the protestors any closer, they would soon be de-meated.
The police isn't protecting the bagger from the protesters. They are protecting the protesters from the bagger
I think quite literally you are right. I don't thi nk activists could do much against this thing and being near it during operations could be very harmful.
Any person who gets in its way is soon to be de-meated.
So they are there to protect the climate activists from being de-meated.
If that was 288 it would destroy those activists like nothing
German police protects activists from Bagger 288.
“What worries me is that Germany has another 287 of these somewhere”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Gtw0iYQkE
Bagger 288
Alas, the bucket wheel looks too small for it to be that Bagger 288. It's got roughly 8 buckets, but Bagger 288 has (or had) 18. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagger_288)
Nonetheless, it's an old meme, but it's still valid.
I mean much could this even cost? One-fiddy?
[deleted]
I think it's the 258 actually...but anyway. 288 is around the corner. There are 5 in use there
Bagger? I hardly know her
/r/ShovelsAndDraglines
The are protecting the activists from the wrath of the bagger
Nope. Bagger 288 is in Garzweiler, not Hambach. Could be Bagger 287 though. (edit: it was originally in Hambach, but was moved to Garzweiler in 2001)
Release it on the protesters!
We must protect the Bagger 288 at all costs.
Good old rathergood
Mire like the pooice protecting activists from the Bagger
For all of you who are out of the loop. Enjoy.
It’s Bagger 261. A nice little machine compared to the other Bagger.
I thought star wars but nope
Seriously looks like a set from Andor
Kenari...destroyed in an Imperial mining accident.
Thats because Andor's backstory is based on real ass shit that happens on this planet every day. Indigenous people in the Amazon are getting displaced, poisoned, and straight up murdered for mining, logging, and farming so we can all have cheaper goods and beef.
Thats not scifi, thats real.
One way out
"And then remember this. The Imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort. It breaks, it leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear."
It does.
Think about how dystopic we already are to keep people warm this winter and the lights on. They have to protect this mammoth against people also fighting for the same people to live beyond a few more years.
That's a real-life paradoxical dystopic hell8sh place we live in.
One of these is on the background of a scene in Andor!
Edit: link - https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/y38xo9/mines_of_pyrofrom_star_wars_andor/
Episode '23 A New Nope
Could be strait from Bracca
I was sure that it was r/fakehistoryporn post
I just found an ancient dagger that lines up with this image perfectly!
I thought it was Bracca
Star Wars but Nope — rings like a movie title.
Adults protecting Ivan Ooze from the Power Rangers Movie
... And the award for most cyberpunk image (and even - situational setup) goes to...
I see nothing cyber about this. Get those cops some RGB LEDs for their shields.
What bout steam punk?
[removed]
realitypunk
the word before "punk" has actual meaning
That's such a redditpunk thing to say.
Its neither cyber nor punk in this context.
Cyberpunk is more than neon lights and cybernetic limbs. The genre depicts, among other things:
...all of which are very much present in the context of this photo.
Then there's also the protesters. According to Wikipedia, Cyberpunk protagonists "[...]often fit into the role of outcasts, criminals, misfits and malcontents, expressing the "punk" component of cyberpunk." Don't tell me this isn't a perfect match!
All in all, this photo, especially in its context, is extremely cyberpunk.
Not really cyber in any context. More post-apocalyptic if anything.
Except its just reality
Read a really interesting article recently arguing that from a native peoples perspective they do live in the post-apocalypse. A huge collapse of their culture happened and now they live in a changed world where the natural world is decaying. Pretty much all criteria for an apocalyptic event happened, just to individual cultures, their peoples.
source: https://twitter.com/marius_mich/status/1610708837463474183/photo/1 by @marius_mich on Twitter
Your title is misleading because the activists never tried to damage the excavator.
They tried to block access to a village (Luetzerath) that is about to be demolished.
https://twitter.com/david_dresen/status/1611030022579535877?t=Gp25WrSKRR9WOczPUsgKmA&s=19 Sogar aus der höchstwahrscheinlich aus deiner Sicht korrekten Perspektive :) bei 0:14
The commenter is rather angry to the police and RWE, especially towards the end
The excavator tries to destroy the land close to the village (Luetzerath) so that it becomes unstable, and cannot be saved any more.
Sounds pretty reasonable. "Activists" literally bet their lives thinking their 100 lb bodies and the law will stop thousands of lbs of metal hurdling towards them and if not their companions will blame everyone but the person diving face first into death despite all the warnings
That Red Cup person in the replies is gross. Read some of their other tweets, they're encouraging it
Thanks
A source from a random German user on Twitter, really? Could just be a random image that they used, you know.
What gets me is that OP seems to understand English but posts German language only content with zero explanation or context.
After the picture and two additional comments I still have no idea what's going on.
It appears as though someone is digging a hole in or near a town and this is making climate activists mad because.... It's... Destroying human? Habitats?
Funny how so many people just blindly trusts in a random Twitter users post and no one explains why I am wrong. I just get downvoted instead, what a fucking hive mind.
Well imagine you grew up somewhere and over the years there's this monster coming towards your hometown. You're forced to leave. Fuck coal
Just lay down in front of it. Until your weird friend asks you to come to the pub.
Don't forget your towel.
Would putting a paper bag over our heads help?
No, but you can if it makes you feel better.
Thanks for all the fish!
So long
So sad that it should come to this..
We tried to warn you all those years
You'll get demonized by everyone as an annoying eco-warrior-tree-hugger. It's wild how much regular people hate anyone actually taking action.
Remind me of a letter from martin Luther king explaining how it biggest obstacle wasn't the extremist but the moderate/centrist who agree with his message but refused to take action or change the status quo
Reddit hates this one simple message!
But what about "mUh NuAnCe!?"*
*^that ^just ^happens ^to ^always ^align ^with ^the ^status ^quo.
That's why the FBI had him killed.
And other black socialists. CIA handled those pesky European socialists. Look up operation Gladios for why climate activists are oppressed in Germany and not applauded as heroes.
The amount of damage MLK could have done (and did) to the establishment is mind boggling. Even his death caused massive riots that only quelled when the Feds passed the Civil Rights act.
I'm gonna be honest, I don't think they had order his death. All they had to do was remove the small amount of security he already had and let the extremists do what they do.
Hell it wouldn't be the first time. Let's look at the Greensboro Massacre. They had an agents infiltrating the neo Nazis and Klu Klux Klan and even had an agent on the ground with those groups who did nothing when they started massacring the other protestors. What did the FBI say about it? Whoops and good riddance.
Or even in more recent times, let's looks at the double homicide of Raul and Brisenia Flores in Arizona. Three members of the far right (and more importantly anti-immigrant and hella racist) Minutemen American defense group invaded the Flores home and murdered Raul Flores and his 9 year old daughter Brisenia on "suspicions of drug and arm snuggling". However, it was later revealed that Colorado FBI not only knew about the attacks two weeks beforehand but knowingly failed to pass on the information to local law enforcement. Again, the FBI didn't technically order any killings, they didn't exactly try too hard to prevent them.
Because again, this just goes back to what Dr. King said. The biggest stumbling block isn't extremists, because they have always been there happy to beat on some non-white heads and shoot their way through kids. It's the moderates who while not as extreme as the uber-racists, are willing to not only passively ignore the issues but actively work to prevent any progress that will result in any changes. All they need to do is look away when a 9 year old is killed or when a racist wants to take out a movement leader in order to absolve them of their sins.
Inaction is a choice. Inaction when life is on the line makes them complicit. I'm pretty much resigned to everything getting worse because of those assholes.
The timing of King's death suggests that it was his criticism of the Vietnam war that did him in.
King died one year to the day after his first public opposition to the U.S. war in Vietnam, a speech titled "Beyond Vietnam: A Time to Break Silence".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King_Jr.#Opposition_to_the_Vietnam_War
Literally climate change today. People never learn or change
The thing is that over the years the eco-warrior-tree-huggers have done everything in their power to shut down as much nuclear as possible, leading to this situation where coal power plants have to be fired up again.
That's why they get flak.
reddit was raised on south park, where the most important virtue is “don’t care too much or you’ll look like a f*g”
Anti climate bots /paid actors out in absolute force when just stop oil was trending.
[deleted]
Being the extremist with nothing short of idealistic views helps no one
He's making a hitch hikers guide to the galaxy reference.
however, yabucek was definitely not wrong
However I never said he was.
You have to know how to pick your targets though.
It's one thing to go after a mining operation, like these activists did, which actually makes sense and can be commended.
It's another thing entirely to vandalize paintings (which have nothing to do with topic at hand and just makes you look like a maniac) or block highways (which can possibly prevent emergency services from doing their jobs).
It's often the latter kind of activist that ends up giving a bad name to the former.
Which one are you going to remember in a week? I bet it won't be people destroying mining equipment.
Does it matter If I remember them as irresponsible jerks?
Do you think the family of the guy who didn't get to the hospital on time because of one of those protests will be won over and join the cause?
Do you think his coworkers will, or the thousands of peopple who'll learn of the story on the news.
The whole "No publicity is bad publicity" thing doesn't really work when you need to get people on your side. If you know the powers that be are gonna try everything in their power to discredit you, why in the hell would you go out of your way to make it easy for them?
Do you think the family of the guy who didn't get to the hospital on time because of one of those protests will be won over and join the cause?
Do you think his coworkers will, or the thousands of peopple who'll learn of the story on the news.
Neither of these things happened. You're more upset over the made up people that are hurt if you disrupt the status quo instead of fixing the fact that we're destroying our planet. Why do you think that is?
No they didn't, thank fuck, but they very well could have given the circumstances. Are you going to keep trying your luck until it does?
The thing is, I want you people to succeed, I truly do, which is exactly why I complain, because actively driving people away from your cause in exchange for publicity which is always going to be overwhelmingly negative is possibly the dumbest way to go about it!
None of that happened though, that isn't happening. If your stance on climate change is "Yeah the destruction of our planet is bad, but these people MIGHT someday make someone lose their job." you deserve to be thrown in a pit.
What hasn't happened?
The "people dying while stuck on a traffic jam" part? Sure, fortunately you've gotten lucky so far.
The "people losing their jobs because of the traffic jam" part? Well, you brought that one up, and I honestly can't tell how you KNOW that didn't happen. Something tells me those activists didn't take the time to check afterwards.
The "you're playing into every strawman the elite ever made of us and are driving people away from climate advocacy"? Well... let's put it this way...
Do you know what the difference is between calling someone a "rebel" and calling them a "terrorist"? It's the fact that the speaker actually agrees with, or at least tolerates, the rebel.
Now, those stunts I was complaining about have brought about quite a lot of attention. A lot of people are noticing you.
They aren't calling you "eco-rebels" though.
You clutching your pearls over a painting that couldn't be damaged if I fired an automatic rifle at it for 15 minutes it's under so much glass is exactly the reaction the powerful (who coincidentally cause the most climate damage and also get to enjoy fine art more than the rest of us) want you to have. They're being given a bad name because you're being told to give it to them by wealthy people who dislike that they're being made to feel a little uncomfortable.
You clutching your pearls over a painting that couldn't be damaged if I fired an automatic rifle at it for 15 minutes it's under so much glass is exactly the reaction the powerful
Neither I, nor the powerful, give a flying fuck about the paintings or the highways, what we both care about is how these acts of protests look like on the news. The powerful are fucking laughing at the fact you lot keep making their strawmen real, and I'm tearing my god damn hair out!
(who coincidentally cause the most climate damage and also get to enjoy fine art more than the rest of us)
That's your reasoning?! The rich and powerful like art and use roads, so let's go after those? I heard they also drink water, why not poison some wells while we're at it!
They're being given a bad name because you're being told to give it to them by wealthy people who dislike that they're being made to feel a little uncomfortable.
Those people were gonna demonize activists REGARDLESS of what they did. They've been doing so for decades. Why, then, do you think it's a good idea to give them extra material to use against you?
Revolutions are only won if the people are on your side! That's why they paint us as attention seekers and crazy people. Why would you ever decide that the way to go is to prove them right!.
If liberals aren’t calling you antifa and/or an eco-terrorist, are you truly living?
Honestly, I hate the antifa bullshit, but I was a bit proud the first time I saw an article refer to my comrades and me as eco-terrorists after a direct action of civil disobedience.
You call that taking action? Please, being an annoying cunt is not taking action, as it isn’t destroying paintings or blocking roads. It leads nowhere. Planting trees and actually bringing something to this world is better, real, and I’ve never seen anyone actually complaining about planting or donating. The real work to change the system is done in the parliament, in which 90% of self called activists don’t want to enter because it’s real hard work.
TLDR: be useful not annoying. Cunt=/=taking action
Regular people here… it’s true. I hate them.
Found the annoying eco-warrior-tree-hugger
r/unexpectedhitchhikers
Are they rebooting or sequelling that soon? I feel like I've seen so such more mention of it the past couple months that it has to be a guerilla ad campaign.
Not that I know of... the series does have a rather large fanbase though, and we do spend lots of time online.
I'm game. We'll see who rusts first.
Just lay down in front of it.
So yeah, that's why the cops are here
ask the excavator operator to lay in front of it for you
You're telling me, right now there's someone finding a solution to all our problems?
Alcohol and salt from the peanuts will help. Do you know where your towel is, though?
Don’t Panic
But first he politely asks a descendent of Genghis Kahn to lay down in your place.
Get some hippy to chain himself to it while you bang his girlfriend, Astrid.
Meet you at the Winchester then?
I actually grew up in the area and had that huge machine looming over my hometown my whole life. It's sad seeing all the villages disappear one after the other. Some where I've visited friends when I was a kid just don't exist anymore. And for everyone in the vicinity, there are a host of other problems aside from your home getting annihilated by this monstrosity: when the weather's dry, there's lots of dust in the air, which makes everything dirty and is probably not very healthy long term. Buildings in the surrounding villages get damaged by the receding ground water levels, which causes the ground to sink ever so slightly. But try sueing them, you'll get nowhere. And countless more.
It's really fucked up that we're still doing this shit.
Maybe Germans should have thought of this before they banned nuclear
Truly a great case of reaping what you sow lmao
Yeah no, agree to disagree. First of all, nuclear energy is not banned, we just made the decision to shut down the reactors after what happened in Fukushima. There's been a decades long debate about doing this before, and that was just the last drop that tipped the scales in the right direction. The reactors were still on the electrical grid for some time, which would have been enough to strengthen the renewable energies like solar and wind, which happened, but just a lot slower than needed, mostly due to politics. Because while it's easy to kick you out of your house and destroy whole villages to dig coal out of the ground, it's apparently not possible to do the same to small amounts of farmland and build wind turbines on it. This has nothing to do with reaping what you sow, this is just a case of the coal lobby being overly strong here in Germany. There have been numerous studies to back that the coal under those villages is not needed for there to be enough energy and hasn't been for years, but studies like this have a tendency to disappear from a politicians desk just to resurface years later.
It's not even coal is lignite, which yes is a type of coal but the worst one, it need to be refined to be used because it's mostly wet.
Like it's imo not worst the destruction on the ecosystems or the radiation produced and released in the atmosphere nor the potential cancers or illness.
But hey good coal doesn't exisit anymore, so we better use shit coal rather than using any other fuel for electricity prodution !
It's not coal, well it is, but it's worse. So it's coal on crack. "Good coal" never existed.
It did, but we used everything in the 19th-20th century.
I live on top of a high-quality coal seam. It's probably flooded though.
The UK has about 500 years of that stuff left, but burning any of it still releases too much CO2 to be viable. It's also not viable economically while lignite is still being mined.
but burning any of it still releases too much CO2 to be viable.
Well the quality of the coal depend of the percentage of carbon in it so of course it will be the worst emission ever.
I thought we used the best already i was wrong.
the problem is bad coal has lots of sulphur dioxide, which is way worse than co2
One of the things people criticised Thatcher for was killing off the last remnants of the British coal mining industry, and the quality of the coal is often mentioned. In truth, we'd been declining the use of coal since the 1960s. Seeing the lignite mines in Germany makes me feel like it's all for nought anyway.
Stop you're painting Thatcher in a good light ! It was a trap i knew it !!!
The miners' strike was slightly before my time, but I know how hard a lot of places were hit by deindustrialisation. She didn't start that process, however. I'm not sure it was the right path to take, and I'd criticise her for many other things, but the whole bogeywoman "let's go piss on her grave" stuff from some parts of the left here is cringe
Same here the north of France was 95% mining industry when we stoped the mine it was a disaster, and the region is still impacted to this day.
Don't worry it was the right path to take coal mining is a shit job, you get shit pay and destroy your health. Maybe they should have handled the things better but they didn't care at the time or didn't want to care.
The still don't care. The north of France is like some far away place no one ever goes to or speaks of... Kind of like some of the neighborhoods around Paris...
It's revisionist bollocks though because Thatcher killed the mines to destroy the unions not to save the environment.
Don’t worry, she still has her own private residence in the very depths of hell.
You wish.
Oh no, I hope she’s in with the common people. She’d hate that.
Yeah you wish.
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Ooh you're hard
Well they got scared when Fukushima flooded and shut down all of their nuke plants, on top of that they have stopped buying natural gas from Russia, so at least for the time being they are pretty much stuck with burning coal. They cannot get nuke back going in any kind of reasonable timeframe, solar and wind are not actual viable sources of "always on power" and very expensive upfront. There really is not much else they can do ATM.
I'm aware of the immediate need to maintain German power supplies, I just think they should've declined the use of lignite after reunification. If it couldn't be done immediately after that, well they've had over 30 years.
It really bothers me that everyone's talking about this mysterious "best coal" without saying the word "Anthracite." Just say it, people!
I won't say the A word NEVER!!
It would be a crime to use high quality coal for power generation when it will eventually be needed by our descendants for smelting iron.
The main reason UK coal isn't viable is because of tax. It was cheaper for us to import low quality coal from China, where the power station only paid tax once for the purchase, than to get better quality coal from Wales where it was taxed both for extraction and purchase.
We definitely didn’t use everything up. I grew up in an area that produces top quality metallurgical coal, the stuff looks like obsidian.
Six enormous trains a day still run out of the coal mines.
Up the hill from my childhood home is an abandoned coal mine from the 1900s. They didn’t abandon it because it ran out of coal, they abandoned it because it was a tricky mountain to mine using underground techniques. I know that one day someone is gonna get greedy and open pit that shit, and my childhood home and the beautiful creek that flows through the property are all going to disappear under tailings piles.
There is still a lot of quality coal (anthracite) available. Just... not in Germany. Germany has huge coal reserves, but it is, like you said, mostly lignite, the wish.com coal.
Not really. There is still plenty of coal, for example in the Ruhr area. What stopped mining of coal is that you need to get lower and lower which made things more expensive over time. At one point getting coal from German coal mines was more expensive than simply importing it from China, or something like that
Nope. Good or clean cool is that which was never mined.
Can't we just clean the coal? /s
When they say good coal they mean high quality coal that didn't need further processing, therefore reducing the ecological impact.
Coal on crack is coke.
I'd take a thousand nuclear reactors if it meant we could finally cut off the cancer that is coal. I understand that we never will truly be able to do so as coal is used as the carbon in an absolute shit-ton of forging and smelting processes.
Germany opted for more coal and no nuclear, so tbh this is exactly what they voted for
Splitting your energy between lignite and Russian gas, doesn't get smarter than that.
a type of coal but the worst one
Oh, but there are worse fuels - as a person from Estonia, I would never advise anyone to burn oil shale (a mix of organics and limestone) - yet we do exactly that, because we have it here. :o Some day it will end, though.
Over here, we used to have stepping excavators (actually, more like crawling excavators) which are tiny compared to the rotor excavators - they weigh only 4000 tons (13500 tons for Bagger 288). :P Oil shale is a bit stronger and needs to be blasted, so a rotor won't work well for digging into it. Thus the smaller machines and slower logistics.
By now, most of oil shale mining has moved underground however.
The human greed is unstoppable. My guess is until the last drop of oil, the last brick of coal is gone, there will be people who will use fossil energy
Will this coal become good coal in another 5,000 years or something?
you can't always find bituminous coal in certain chunks of the world. Lignite is good enough to hold you over until you can channel out the magma sea for magma smelters.
Good coal does exist, except it's taxed so heavily it became commercially unviable to extract it. In the UK, it's cheaper to import dirty coal from China than to buy some of the world's "cleanest" coal from Wales. Coal from China is only taxed at purchase, but coal from Wales is taxed both for extraction and purchase.
Right! I'm sure Europe will be fine throughout the winter until alternate power sources can be created...
We have alternate energy sources.
Damn Germany is really a effective country!!
They can force out a entire village, bring a earth eater machine, and start destroying everything under 6 months without all the bureaucracy !
And they are the sole provider of electricity in all Europe!!
We already have a far superior alternate power source- nuclear reactors.
Germany just shut all theirs down because environmentalists pressured the government, so now they use coal. What a massive improvement.
To be fair to the german government, the alternative is worst. Energy needs to be produced, and that town had a grand total of 8 people. Ideally this wouldn’t have to happen, and I like to believe that they looked at other less damaging options first, but sometimes there just aren’t any good options. Maybe if European countries weren’t so quick to de-nuclearize their energy production, things like this wouldn’t happen as often.
All resource extraction is this ugly. Even mining for uranium is extremely dangerous and destructive, but it's way more energy dense. People just need to be aware that this is what needs to happen to keep you living, Mining for resources, not just for fuel, and processing it is extremely destructive and dangerous. It's an ugly truth about life.
I think that outside destroying communities for something they promised to phase out, the protesters are mostly there because using coal for power is comically evil and was promised to be phased out by 2030
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Bro it's 10°C at night, cold is something else lol This reads like either a nuclear cultist or Russian bot comment
literally 13 degrees at newyears in Germany
Coal people: Still no climate change, trust me
This is not correct. The coal is not needed to secure Germany's energy . At least thats the opinion experts on the topic publicly states.( ex. DIW, Aurora Energy Research)
/A/ alternative is worse. There's tons of alternatives that don't include coal and destroying small communities. German govt even promised to phase out coal which makes it even worse imo.
My country is investing billions into nuclear energy, not everyone has gone mad here haha
I'm all for nuclear. I totally get the panic after Chernobyl (wasn't alive, but the description sounds scary), what I don't get is how something that happened over 30 years ago can still blind so many people when the science has advanced so much.
What country are you from btw?
The residents were all given the offer of higher-valued homes elsewhere, plus relocation costs, plus additional money on top of it. Only one farmer is left holding out until he is "forced" to leave; the rest were glad for the offer.
That is peak r/latestagecapitalism shit
„Of course money will fix every problem. Just tell the poor people to go somewhere else, who gives a shit about homes and history. We pay for it, aren‘t we generous?“
I mean, clearly most of the residents of the town took the deal by choice, because they come out ahead and aren't irrationally attached to an old building.
If somebody offered to buy just about anything of mine for more than it was worth, I'd be quite happy.
Call me old fashioned, but I‘m not too fond of the idea that a mega corporation can come in the 90s, strike a deal that by today is long obsolete, to the point that our government said they wanted to stop this, and mine coal we as a country do not need (150m tons and we are only allowed to burn around a third of that). I mean, if it were necessary for our society I‘d take it (I guess) but it‘s obvious they are just greedily mining it to sell to other countries. And to do that they destroy the environment there and act as the heroes „yes, we saved you (from the damages we inflicted upon you)“
All for the money, I guess.
The irony that those activists don't get is that Germany is still bound to coal because of activists like them who protested against nuclear power.
Germany is still bound to coal because of activists like them who protested against nuclear power.
And mainly because of conservatives who actively prevented the development of solar and wind power.
It's a mix of anti-nuclear fear mongering and the inactivity and corrupt laziness of the conservatives (which we sadly had in power for 16 fucking years) that we are where we are now. It's so fucking frustrating
The corrupt party that is responsible for the russia gas fiasco was in power for 12 of those 16 years (SPD). And the current government is composed of that corrupt party and the party responsible for the nuclear fear mongering (Grüne). And some lobbyists (FDP).
And what was one of the first actions that new government did? Return to coal.
And why did we have to return to coal? Because the CDU didn't properly expand renewables.
The CDU is mostly to blame. The SPD had their hands in it as well, but the CDU was the bigger player.
The greens might have been the ones against nuclear power (which I do not agree with) but they had proper plans set up to massively expand renewables in the place of nuclear powerplants, which the CDU blocked to the point the industry for renewables had to let people go.
And why did we have to return to coal?
Simple because renewables weren't feasible yet. The worst part? The green party knew this. They funded studies on whether renewable energys were feasible. The studies concluded that they were not. They still pushed their anti-nuclear agenda.
Because the CDU didn't properly expand renewables.
Germany is not in a bad place regarding renewable energys compared to the rest of the world. We are however worse in terms of CO2 pollution. So 16 years of CDU did less harm than a few years Grüne.
Wind turbines have been feasible for years now. Solar energy just as much. At least for 10 years, but easily longer. Especially wind turbines, they are as wide spread here in northern germany since I was a child for a reason.
The 16 years of CDU did more harm than any government germany had since 1949. It's not only the renewables they staggered for no reason but their own corruption, they stopped investing in everything, leading germany to have a brocken education system, lack behind in digitalisation and so many other fields.
If the CDU weren't such corrupt fucks, germany would've been way better off in the current crisis and we had much more renewables.
Did other parties also did their part in fucking up? Yes, of course. But the main reason is and always was the CDU.
Right. The fact that you consider the german education system broken despite (which it's not, despite the SPD constant attempts to reform/trash it) disqualifies your entire argument as you clearly have no idea.
Wind turbines have been feasible for years now.
And no. Wind turbines have not been feasible to support the entire energy needs of germany. Renewables as a whole weren't for the past 30 years. You know, the study?
I have no idea? Please, I have been out of school since only summer of 2019 and was in school for my apprenticeship (Berufsschule) in blocks since 2020 and the system is fucking broken.
Covid showed it best. No digitalisation AT ALL, at max a Beamer maybe. My Berufsschule got Smartboards only a few weeks before my class left school. The teachers are also uneducated in digital things and we have a serious lack of teachers.
Let's not get started how most schools haven't been renovated since they were build. My old schools sports hall had a leaky roof through all my years there and it was never properly fixed because there were no funds.
And you tell me the school system isn't broken. Just Shows you don't know anything. I don't know how old you are or anything, but either you're eld enough to have been out of school for years now, had a really good school (which is the exception, not the rule) or you just did not pay attention
The school system offers a pretty good all around education, it's not censored and not influenced by religious doctrines. The general lack of digitization is more on the bundesländer and municipalities. There is money for it from the bund. If your city hasn't renovated the schools despite funds existing, there is no problem with the system in general.
It’s just another version of The Grapes of Wrath, which was of course just another version of some other callous government destroying people’s lives and homes for more profit.
Nobody is talking of local people. The protest is from climate activists.
Edit: source: „Die Einwohner sind längst weg, die rund 200 Klimaaktivisten verschanzen sich in Baumhäusern.“
https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/innenpolitik/luetzerath-raeumung-101.html
TIL climate activists can't live near the area where the machines are taking the soil
They can - but in this case they do not.
Idiotic argument.
They chose to live in the area where its official that the machines are taking the soil, noone forced them to live there.
Wait, did someone force the machine to stay there?
Yeah what a bunch of bastards, trying to help the environment
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Of course they write that themselves. But by and large the "climate justice movement as well as solidary citizens" outnumber the people who actually lived in those villages by far.
For the most part, the big protests start when a village is on direct track to be demolished in the near future. Which is usually when pretty much all residents have already accepted their fate and resettlement payments.
In every documentary and news piece its always hundreds of activists from big cities and maybe they get an interview with 3 locals who came back to pick up a couple of bits and bobs they forgot, who are annoyed that a bunch of uni students start shit now when everythings said and done.
I don’t know and I don’t have an opinion. Just the news read differently:
“Die Einwohner sind längst weg, die rund 200 Klimaaktivisten verschanzen sich in Baumhäusern.”
https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/innenpolitik/luetzerath-raeumung-101.html
Nobody is talking of local people. The protest is from climate activists.
On a cosmic scale we're all locals, fellow Earthican
I mean it's a perfect climate protest, direct action at the terrible outdated extractive coalface.
The same ones who Protest these diggers, also Protest against Clean nuclear power. YOU CAN't HAVE it both ways.
3 mile island and Chernobyl may have been the two most destructive events in history for our future lol. At least the way they were handled. The worldwide distrust in nuclear energy is sad
and yet theyve caused less damage to the Enviroment than Burning coal, people seem to forget burning coal releases more radiation and waste in a year than a Nuclear power plants in 10.
The same green energy activists in Germany campaigned against nuclear energy and forced a shutdown of most of the reactors. This made Germany dependent on Russian gas, and now it had been caught with its pants down, so it is forced to mine all the coal while the LNG terminals are being built.
I wonder if anyone looked at where those activists are getting their funding. The timing is... peculiar.
We people here have no problem with that. Stop speaking for us. People get paid good money and it’s their decision to take it.
Wdym, there are plenty of people who denied the "good money". Its about the memories not the money you greedy douche.
If only we didn't share the same air and climate...
Found the paied RWE goon! I grew up near there, the 'STOP Rheinbraun' signs were everywhere in the 90s and 2000s, people gave up, after all political parties declined to save the villages, many moved beforehand, many took the money, because what could you do?
Selfish people only after money, what else is new. Don’t wanna hear you complain about the health effects down the road, either since you love the money so much. Coal mining is fucked.
Speak for yourself... If Lützerath falls we can forget all climate goals.
WHERE WAS GONDOR WHE THE LÜTZERATH FELL?
Nobody wants mines for ressources for solar panels, nobody wants a wind mill in is eyesight, nobody wants artificial lakes to power turbines, nobody wants nuclear reactors.
Lützerath is only a way to generate attention. The real fight is in every village where people are blocking new wind mills and power lines.
Well I want nuclear reactors in Germany. I think we're competent enough.
Well they would be a very temporary solution since the world is slowly running out of economically viable uranium deposits too.
Time for fusion ig
A technology that is 30 years in the future for the last 60 years or so.
It is less than 5 years away (but on small scale).
A week or two I saw video about company named Helion from Real Engineering
channel. Actually I think they claimed they are 2 years away from first commercial fusion powerplant.
30 minutes video, but it very very interesting
Pff climate goals. Imagine truly believing that we would reach those goals if only Lützerath survives. Those climate goals are the biggest hoax and the biggest political stunt ever.
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It's like waste separation, someone's got to start
"Nobody separates it so if I do it, it doesn't matter" that clown probaly
Thats a bs argument. Germany has all the waste seperation in the world and which 2nd and 3rd world countries followed up? The roll model argument is a myth that only germans believe
Right because the German people never made any destructive decisions ever
Nice try.
Born:
April 20, 1889, Braunau am Inn, Austria-Hungary (present-day Austria)
You may have paid good money for it, but it’s my earth too. Don’t speak for us who live here (and want to protect it)
You wouldnt even live in a world we have today was it not with coal. Same goes to oil. It was and still is a powerful resource we need to fuction. But with progress and technology we can phase it out for cleaner energy.
It was needed to industrialize. That's true. It isn't needed and is outright harmful now. Be it in small scales (there were severa studies that the coal under this village isn't needed for germany's energy safety. Yet it is still mined as you can still do a lot of profits with it in Germany And it's an amount roughly equivalent to the yearly CO2-emissions of Greece) or in large scales(lignite could've been substituted years ago with cleaner fuel, as do other fossil fuels. Even without nuclear. But all these transitions were intensively sabotaged by the fossil fuel lobby and conservatives)
We could have phased it out many years ago if it wasn't for stubborn and corrupt politicians.
OK, sure, and the billions of people who vote for such politicians worldwide. And others who drove market forces to continue using fossil fuels because they can't afford the big cost increases of literally everything in modern society that would be more expensive when produced with cleaner, but much more costly energy than coal. Yes, new renewable generation capacity can be added at similar or even lower cost than coal now in some circumstances, but replacing current power plants is still a colossal total cost, and takes a very long time to build out (and fuel is needed for survival in the meantime). This isn't the US or some struggling emerging economy, it's fucking Germany, who is supposed to be in the club of enlightened counties who take climate goals seriously, but even they cannot survive without it now.
Open your eyes, it's a difficult thing will take many decades even with good support in a wealthy nation. Human progress is messy and slow, this is no exception.
Many comparable countries have switched to renewables and/or nuclear at a much faster rate than Germany.
Buy you're right. The people voting for these politicians aren't innocent either.
It was and still is a powerful resource we need to fuction.
It was, but it absolutely isn't anymore, at least for the most developed countries, which Germany is.
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Don't talk if you don't know enough. isar and emsland nuclear plants are still going.
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Well the energy has to come from somewhere especially if we talk industrial. At least two are still up, imo we could use a few more of them. Coal kills us all and as long as fusion isn't really here yet, what CAN we use?
And somehow most German environmentalists unironically celebrated that change hard
It actually is needed by Germany at the moment because of their horrendous geostrategic planning in regards to Russia and refusal to use nuclear energy. The latter issue in large part due to climate activists.
Won't somebody please think of the fossil fuel industry which learned of its causal link to global warming in the 80s but willfully chose to burry it.
Fuck em. Thanks to them we've run out of time to wait for a silver bullet.
Oy don't lie about that.
They learned about their influence in the late 60s to early 70s.
We could have done just fine without lignite, tbh. The coal that fueled the industrial revolution and steam trains was hard coal, which is usually mined underground, not in open pits like this one.
It was. It only still is because of corruption or lobbyism, for rich country's..
I mean you basically said it in your last sentence. We have the technology to start phasing away from it, but unfortunately all anyone cares about is “what’s the absolute cheapest we can do”. Coal was necessary at one point, but no more. People are just so afraid of change as well as spending some more money on green tech
Wow this is not how mining works at least not in Europe
Well obviously it is. Especially if you need such amounts.
That's what happens when you shutdown all other alternatives such as nuclear
Fuck the climate “activists”
Call them out for what they are… terrorists
I don't see them blow up shit. They just protest by blocking stuff and glue themselves to streets.
Fuck off with calling that terrorism
They are trying to usurp your way of life. They are as equally dangerous as religious zealots.
No they don't and aren't. Religious zealots murder people and want to make everyone servants to their gods.
These activists just wanna get more attention towards the issue that is climate change, which simply isn't getting enough attention.
we need energy
so its easier to move a village to another place
or
how about europe make a zero vat in solar panels to make them super cheap so more people install?
let me know guys your opinions please
If there's anyone to blame it's the morons who got all the nuclear plants shut down. Japan, a nation on a fault line and directly in the path of tropical storms, making people hate nuclear all over the world, even in the least natural disaster prone regions of the planet is the most brain dead thing ever.
Of course it is easier, but that's ignoring the humans, living in that village, over tens of years. They got cheaply bought and had no choice but to accept.
Yeah zero vat (or maybe just very low) for solar panels might be a good idea, but then you need the amount of solar panels to make it work. I doubt Germany can keep up with the supply
It’s easier, but it’s also unethical. Like extremely unethical lol. If only there was a way to produce much cleaner nuclear energy without relocating tons of people and producing massive amounts of greenhouse gasses in the process 😩
Brilliant story premise though. It must be such a strange feeling to grow up watching your birthplace's inevitable consumption gradually inch its way over the horizon.
Yeah, well the problem is not the machine that consumes your hometown, the problem is in a office somewhere far away.
I'm a bit worried about people trying to stop it by force. They could get really hurt if they aren't familiar with the machinery.
I think the best way to prevent this is to let the police stay until we know a safe way to gum everything up. Anyone got a wrench?
As far as I know my hometown doesn't have any coal, but it's only about a meter above sea level so it'll go eventually anyway, for the same reason.
Like the movie that could have been better, Mortal Engines
You're forced to leave.
And get paid a lot to do so. Most people would be happy about that.
Save money on not having to keep your house in working order because it's going to be removed in a decade anyway. And then get a shitload of money to build a shiny new home somewhere close by.
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i feel like people are way too quick to discount people. "people" will be fine. individuals will suffer.
Right. If 90% of everyone dies, there still going to be hundreds of millions of people left. Basically just resets the global population to the 1800's.
we’re taking down a lot of other species with us too.
We are a mass extinction event
In my lifetime, I heavily suspect that either climate justice activists of the 2020s will be regarded as heroes, or we won’t have a planet for it to matter.
Yep.
Not advocating this; but unfortunately, the extinction of homo sapiens would this planet’s best hope.
No, it wouldn't.
Earth will be fine if we go extinct. You have to broaden the optics. Sure, the first 100 years will all still be debris and remains of human civilization.
100,000 years, tho? As if we never even existed.
Not fully. 100k would apparently barely get the faces off Mount Rushmore. All the geosynchronous (or geostationary?) satellites will still be there. The biggest mines will still be around to, like those in South Africa.
Oh and the plastic layer in the fossil record.
Welcome to the Anthropocene
I didn’t that this wouldn’t take place in a short time.
nobody has or or will print it out or publish it in a book
it will exist only as a series of zeroes and ones on the internet
since there will be no energy to run pcs or functional internet connections, it will disappear into history just like we will
just like the millions of reddit posts we've all been making, it will cease to exist
This is next-level imagery.
I feel like this could be shown to anyone and they would be able to correctly identify that these are the bad guys.
The thing is coal is being phased out until 2030 yet those companies are trying to dig now as much as they can. In order to do so they buy whole villages just to tear up the earth to extract low quality coal. It really is a farce that this is allowed. The damages to nature are incredible.
Think about how many wind power plants are not being built, because they would inconvenience some people in villages nearby. And then think about how villages like this are still being fucking crushed to dust and people resettled for coal that nobody wants anymore. How the hell does this still have such a lobby in German politics and renewables don't? I genuinely don't get it.
It's the same thing as people complaining about Trainline nearby why having 6 lane road on the other side
Ah, my favourite kind of people. In Germany it can take years if not decades to extend an already existing train line by another track. It's horrible
Well yea, a train coming by and making noises 2-3 times an hour during peak times and then only once every hour or two the rest of the day is FAR worse than the constant, never ending noise from cars and trucks 24/7 365 that also gets louder for holidays and weekends.
What I love is when people buy a house next to a race track, then complain about the noise...
NIMBYs in their purest form
Or an airport. We have that problem where I live. The airport has been there for 100 years, yet people move to the town next to it and then complain about the noise.
Right. And then they'll complain at local meetings and try to get the airport shut down... like dummy... maybe not move next to an airport?
they'll suddenly become FAA experts and state how it's illegal for planes to fly at certain altitudes over their homes, despite living 100 ft from the edge of the runway where planes have to like land and takeoff n' stuff ya'know?
The road produces more consistent noise, but train horns are jarring.
Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have the train. But I can understand why people might find the occasional loud noise worse than the consistent moderately loud noise. Human senses are keyed to change rather than intensity, we "tune out" things that are consistent.
Where do you live that horns are a problem. I've lived next to a railroad my entire life and very rarely hear a horn.
And you absolutely get used to trains as well, both the noise and the shaking. When my girlfriend moved in she'd complain and I would be genuinely confused because I would rarely even realize a train was passing.
Me personally? Oh, nowhere near the trains.
I had family that lived near a crossing and you could hear it when we visited. Didn't bother me, but I could see it bothering other people.
I think in the US it’s very common for trains to use their horn at every crossing
Huh, TIL. That probably would be annoying yes.
I'm not positive I ever heard a train horn. I don't think they're that common in Germany.
Some of my family lives in Eastern Oregon, USA, (baker city) and the local government (Republicans btw) rejected a fully privately funded plan to upgrade train crossings so that the trains didn’t need to honk their horns - because this represented an apparently intolerable intrusion by “liberals” on their deeply held memories of listening to a loud as fuck train horn in the middle of town. Only with major lobbying effort did the city finally extend its approval to what is, again, fully funded by donations from hoteliers, real estate agents, and sleepless citizens.
I used to live near train tracks. It's not just the noise. The earth literaly shakes everytime a train passes. This lead to damage to the house, and my sleep schedule. It is not a fun experience. Not to mention that since I was near a crossing a lot of the trains slowed down before it. Let me tell you that the screech of the brakes is a lot worse than a train horn.
I live 50m from a platform (138 trains/day + cargo trains ) so trains brake here and stuff.
What you hear is PA and the 4 lane viaduct above the railway
Depending on the traffic pattern, the noise isn't always uniform either.
I have a rather busy 4-lane road next to my window, and I live on the first floor (2nd for US readers). Every God damn bus and truck engine roars in my stomach.
It's especially grating at night, it'll be quiet for an hour, then a couple cars zoom by, then another bit of quietness, then a bus passes by and it breaks the silence in a way I can't ignore it.
tl;dr
I prefer sleeping with earplugs.
Or something as stupid as paper straws. Yeah they suck Karen, but so do micro plastics.
I will no longer accept noise concerns. We have a highway nearby and they build a sound shield around it and it is so effective that even RIGHT next to the highway, behind the shield, you'd barely hear anything. Of course you COULD hear it, but it's reduced by 90% or so. I would 100% be up to live near that if that meant having cheaper accomodation or getting compensated for that thing being built. In which case it is less about the noise and more about being compensated for a reduction of value.
That goes only for people who had already lived there. Others CHOOSE to move close to an Autobahn (actually great location because it gets you anywhere fast, plus can be cheaper) and then complain about the noise.
As an American, I beg you, do not let your beacons of public transit be reduced to automobile-packed hellscapes. You literally cannot live without a car in the US. Most places here have little to no public transit to speak of.
I could understand that.
I can hear the expressway two blocks away. But the train that stops two towns away will wake you from a dead sleep.
I literally live 50m away from platform, PA is the thing you hear and the 4 lane viaduct above the railway
I've got a train line about 2km away and the only time I ever hear it is if there's a cargo train running and my window is open.
They actually dismantled a wind power plant to expand the excavation area. https://balkangreenenergynews.com/wind-farm-in-germany-is-being-dismantled-to-expand-coal-mine/ And the coal called lignite is full of sulfur, and heavy metals, and can contain radioactive elements, too.
Fun fact: coal-burning power plants release more radioactive contamination than any nuclear power plant in history.
Yes, including that one.
And Germany closed16,441 megawatts of clean, nuclear electricity since 2011. That's why they're burning millions more tons of filthy lignite.
Are you sure it's not because shady backroom deals and greasy palms?
Sounds a lot like corruption to me.
It's ideologically driven insanity. The Greens are committed to phasing out (banning) nuclear energy BEFORE phasing out coal, probably by decades. The lignite mine owners wouldn't have even have had an argument or a market had the anti-nuclear activists not destroyed the German nuclear fleet.
Absolute insanity. Fuck the green/alliance 90.
If they are doubling down now, in our hour of need, in the largest energy crisis we have ever faced, while proclaiming climate change is the number one threat to us...
.. then there is no hope left. We are fucked.
I mean, it's both. A perfect storm, when you consider both groups arent colluding.
The greens got their start due to anti nuclear protests. Its like a cornerstone of their party and they cant back down. Arguably their biggest impact on society has been the rebranding of nuclear energy from humanity's savior to Humanity's scourge.
This impact has left many Germans across the political spectrum sceptical of nuclear power. Combined with the fossil lobbyists, who deride nuclear on cost/time to build basis, there hasnt been growth in the sector in a long time. When a sector has no growth for a long time, it loses institutional knowledge - and this further drives the cost and time needed to build new, since you dont have much experience left on how to do it quick and cheap.
Add the loss of cheap gas, and so we are left with the OG power source, Coal (which in germany is mostly lignite, the good hard coal is mostly already gone) and renewables. Germany for whatever reason doesnt pursue geothermal in any scale despite having proper conditions in several areas, and germany doesnt have very many hydroelectric dams either. So our renewables are mostly wind and solar which are not constant power sources. To ensure capacity, storage must be realized in unheard-of scale before we can stop coal entirely.
This storage capacity will not magically appear by 2030, ergo germany will not exit coal in 2030.
Up to a 100 times more per unit of energy https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste/
I know that :)
Even better, those wind turbines aren't really that old which are about to be demolished. To then be replaced on the other side of the lignite mine. It's so bizarre
afaik they are basically as old as the average windmill gets
Sigh. I suddenly feel like protesting too. Had no idea it’s so bad.
Holy Trumper Boomer Batman! Have you seen the comments in that article???
This sounds like some shit that would happen in Texas.
Oh please. They're also erecting wind mills on the other side literally right now.
And some people will try to answer with "but the ground needs to settle for 20 years!" That's false too. The new wind mills are literally 50 meters away from the current edge.
That's because wind is not all that great. It is a way for GE and Rolls Royce to continue selling turbins to governments and convince the people who don't really look into it they have a good solution. It is fine for sporadic power here and there, but even where there is regular wind it is not reliable and cannot be counted on as an always on source. Same as solar, it is not predictable power and in a grid that makes it relatively useless to provide power on a large scale.
Just think about a large snow storm or heat wave in a place where wind and solar are even 50% of your power supply. You could be looking at 25%+ of the population freezing or getting heat related health problems because the sun is not out or the wind is still. They are not long term solutions to power issues with out proper storage and other sources are cleaner and smaller. Geo thermal is absolutely amazing and it is getting to the point where plants can be built almost anywhere, are always on and take up less space than a football stadium.
Why not nuclear, though? It's much cleaner than anything we have today. According to wiki, they have 5 working nuclear power plants (plus four offline being too old to use, and an unfinished one). Is building a new one too costly, so they chose to continue using toxic lignite over protecting the environment?
Geo thermal is absolutely amazing and it is getting to the point where plants can be built almost anywhere
That's great. But I assume the technology is not quite there yet?
Snow storms are almost ideal conditions for wind power. Unless you skimped on the frost package like the Texans did. Heat waves generally come with ideal conditions for solar power.
Geo thermal is absolutely amazing
How "clean" geothermal power is highly depends on where you are. For example in Turkey some geothermal plants emit more CO2 than a natural gas power plant of equal power, because of high amounts of CO2 of volcanic origin dissolved in the hot water that they bring up. Hydrogen sulfide, methane and ammonia are other problematic gases often emitted by geothermal plants.
And in a lot of places where there aren't any natural hot aquifers fracking is needed to build geothermal power plants, which brings its own set of issues (like triggering earthquakes and potential groundwater contamination with fracking fluids).
I guess it has to do just like in the US with mining towns who give politicians their vote and massive companies lobbying heavily while waving stacks of cash.
Don't forget that many of those mining towns also have artificial mountains made from mining rubble slowly leaching arsenic and mercury into the water supply. Nothing grows on them, so it's just a big unsightly pile of mining debris that has become a permanent piece of the landscape. Oh and the corporation that put it there got a waiver and is now legally not responsible for their pile of toxic waste.
But no, it's the windmills that are ugly.
And don’t forget the ugly huge hole they leave behind once done. As they remove any nutritious ground for plant growth those sites will just remain waste lands
Your comment reminded me of the Aberfan disaster
Cause those people are dumb as fuck and don’t realize the companies building wind turbines and solar fields pay more.
Cover every parking lot in the US with solar panels nand you could probably cover 75% of the countries power needs. ( I think I saw an estimate that it was as low as 2k sq km)
But that would be cheap, and oil and gas companies would lose their income.
And those dumb fucks haven’t figured out if they built the solar shit they could charge for it.
Cover every parking lot in the US with solar panels nand you could probably cover 75% of the countries power needs.
Sir, you underestimate how many parking lots we have. We'd probably power ourselves and Canada with Houston alone.
Just take the Mall of America parking lot… insane. Florida could be a prime spot but FPL is fighting tooth and nail to not allow solar power
I said 2200 km² in another comment but I think the actual estimate is only 200 mi.²
Like there’s a space in Nevada, where nobody ever travels that we could build a solar farm .
I actually did some math to check whether it made sense (please check my sources) :
US electricity production is approx. 4000 TWh a year, so on average 460 GW per hour.
An 1m² solar panel produces 150 W per hour when it's sunny, so it produces at most half that because nights. The big assumption here is it's always super sunny... which is absolutely not the case but anyway it's a first order approximation.
So you'd need approx. 6 Gm² to cover. That's 6000 km² or a 75 km sided square. The big assumption here is that you don't need space between the panels... which is prolly impossible, but let's keep going.
There is an estimated 2.4 billion m² of parking lot in the US. that's 2400 km².
So you'll need to completely cover at least 2.5 times all the US parking lot.
“People are dumb as fuck”
“cover every parking lot in the US with solar panels”
Yes.
It’s actually a feasible idea and doesn’t require that much more. Easier for new build.
They’re already putting up light poles, framework for solar isn’t that much different than building a house.
Short term costs more but pays off within 5-10.
Keeps places cooler, provides charging for electric vehicles.
Frame it off the side of the building and you could even panel the side.
And it only requires something like 10-20% of the available parking to be covered to power the country.
We're are you getting the copper for the wiring and the silica for the panels?
They are probably planning on switching eventually but in rhe mean time they want to maximize profits now before their equipment becomes worthless
And most of the people making the decisions.
“Well, we’ll be dead before it affects us…. Fuck them kids.”
Fuckin boomers.
That miners have such an influence in US politics is a result of their voting system that enables swing States and such. In Germany their influence is not so big. We have another voting system. With our system the loss off other 80 000 jobs in renewables is more significant.
The answer id quite easy. It is corru... I mean lobbying. For example the energy giant RWE does effectively pay a lot of politicians more than their actual salary as politcians. That makes their jobs as politicians essentially a secondary job as their main income came from RWE.
Miners are quite a source of 'clout', especially in NRW, though. Being able to say 'Mein Vater war Steiger/Kumpel' (My father was a miner) secured you at least a foot in the door with many working plass people, this being the 'quintessential working class' job for at least a century.
And as a Steigerkind going against the coal mining industry doesn't bode too well, because God beware the new generation doesn't die from preventable lung diseases.
I got an email yesterday that it now costs me nothing extra to offset my energy consumption to wind and solar anymore. I've been allocating 65% for two or three years which I think is the max allowance. It always costed more but now it's actually cheaper to do the renewables. What I'm saying is please don't paint a country (USA) the size of Europe with as many states as Europe has countries as one uniform canvas. You didn't even need to specify a country to make your comment.
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That got better, it is easy to give up your job when you get some kind of new trade, also when your house falls prey to miningdamage you kinda rethink your career…
But what can i tell you, this excavation is part of a deal specifically made by members of the green party intheir respective positions
If you visit this area, there is wind turbines all around. In fact, you will see a few hundred wind turbines but then one of those excavators and the cliff
True. Also, some of them do not work because issues with the concrete in the tower has been found after a similar wind turbine collapsed a year ago. They are currently getting replaced
Germany uses a lot of renewable energy. Like half of their power comes from it. They're big fans of it and are happy to use it in place of fossil fuels where they can.
It's not realistic to expect most nations to be fully renewable with current technology. Even if you have enough solar panels and wind turbines, you need the geography to support it. If a place is too cloudy, the wind too still, and there aren't enough rivers for hydroelectric, then you probably can't have a fully renewable nation no matter how hard you try - not until our power storage and transmission capabilities are much better.
Germany is also in the middle of an energy crisis because of their natural gas deal with Russia being ruined by the war. That's an immediate need for power that can't be solved with more renewables. Germany lacks the LNG infrastructure to rely on that, and the Dutch fields can't supply all of Europe.
The only realistic alternative to this short-term spike in fossil fuel usage is nuclear, which would in fact solve all of these problems but good luck getting through the politics of it
The right wing parties still side with the NIMBYs at every opportunity. It's close to impossible to build wind turbines in Bavaria because the eternal CSU party blocks everything.
They did extend the lifetime for all remaining nuclear power plants that were supposed to be phased out. As for building new ones, maybe you should look into how long that takes.
They had loads of nuke plants. In fact plenty to phase out this coal, but they got scared by Fukushima and shut them all down...
Yes, so much for the climate protection efforts of the ruling parties (including greens) when they switch off nuclear and increase coal instead.
Main aim seems to be to align with ideology from the last century instead of switching off CO2 intensive plants...
Nuclear is a really complicated topic and it isn't as simple of an answer as the Reddit zeitgeist would have you believe.
Reactors are safer and more effective than ever, yes, but they're the end of the chain. Fuel refinement is still a very difficult issue and the task of waste management is much more difficult to handle in a dense place like Europe versus North America's massive geography.
There's also, again, the war, where Europe has just watched their crazy and increasingly aggressive neighbor capture a nuclear plant and strike non-nuclear infrastructure. It's not exactly surprising to see nations reluctant to build a big box that says "shoot this once to generate a massive and historical catastrophe".
I say this as a fan of nuclear who wants it to be scaled up as fast as possible - there's legitimate roadblocks in the way beyond the fear of ignorant people
There's literally no challenge in storing wastes in Europe. There are European solutions for waste storage. The vast majority of waste are recycled, the very little remaining quantities of highly radioactive and long fie waste are stored underground in safe locations. The storage technology is more than mature, there are no risks in storing the wastes underground as they are safely packed and constantly monitored. The wastes are not meant to be kept here until they are no longer radioactive. The goal is to store them until the technology to fully recycle them is mature. This is a matter of decades, nothing more. This argument against nuclear is malicious.
Only 10% of Germany’s power is actually renewable. They do love it, but Germany is not sunny or windy.
A coal plant takes 24 hours to turn on. Wind and solar fluctuate constantly. What they do is run coal plants all the time, using the energy when renewables are low and wasting the energy when renewables perform well. They literally run coal plants regardless of the weather; much of their renewable infrastructure is completely useless because of this (until some changes are made like maybe a larger nuclear base-load or better storage tech)
Even when the renewables are technically supplying the energy, there’s a coal plant that’s fully running but disconnected from the grid. The same amount of coal is burned, but their statistics look better.
This kind of lip service to environmentalism is a huge problem. It makes people feel like their helping without actually doing anything to solve the problem.
The answer is pretty simple: Germany fucked itself energy-wise by (1) phasing out all nuclear power in a hysterical overreaction to Fukushima, thus increasing reliance on fossil fuels; and (2) partnering with Russia for 60% of Germany's natural gas, the consequences of which could not have been 100% predicted at the time, but which many other countries criticised as unwise, given the nature of Russsia's ruler.
Now they're screwed, and have few desirable options in the short term.
Fukushima? Are you kidding? The anti-nuclear gravy train goes back to before Chernobyl, but was proper kick-started by it. And it's kind of a doozy too, because it's the result of having a free press that spread info around like wildfire. France squashed their anti-nuclear movement by straight up censoring information regarding Chernobyl, so the movement never got proper track in France. They did something that would be universally decried across the western world these days, but it has paid off massively for them.
yeah france's reactors were real powerhouses this summer!
(1) phasing out all nuclear power in a hysterical overreaction to Fukushima, thus increasing reliance on fossil fuels;
That's not true. Phasing out nuclear was set in motion long before Fukushima happened.
You m€an th€ an$w€r i$n’t obviou$? Wealth begets wealth and the fossil fuel industry is enormously wealthy which in our society is the same thing as being enormously powerful.
Frankly it is not obvious at all, no. Because there is enormous wealth to be gained from renewables as well and other than fossil fuels, it will only get better in the future.
The social power structures that fossil fuels enable have a self-perpetuating existence though, do you think the Saudi royal family will just go quietly back to irrelevance when the oil runs out? Fuck no they’ll defend their Bugattis and their deeply repressive dictatorship for as long as they possibly can. Same goes for oil giants the world over, they’re poisoning our planet to death but the infinite pursuit of wealth on a finite planet is so deep-rooted into the DNA of these organisations they literally can’t do anything else even if they’re killing people and bringing ecosystems to their knees.
Don’t mistake them for rational actors; you might as well ask a crocodile to stop depleting the river of its prey so they don’t become extinct themselves for all the use it would do.
To build off on this - people really like to go the path of least resistance. They also like money, and immediate money.
The world is built around the damaging fuels; renewables were not in the initial scope. It takes money, planning, and time to transition over. Lobbying against change is easier than change, especially when people tend to naturally resist change.
These mega-corporations are making bank and already have a working product. The people in charge also likely will not be impacted nearly as much by their destruction as future generations.
I think many people lack concern over others, especially those in future lifetimes.
I do believe people are understanding the need for change, I'm just not sure we'll see enough in our lifetime.
As you mentioned, the earth has limited resources. We will need to change our ways if we care about life as we know it.
It doesn’t work that way. Wind power is great, don’t get me wrong. But you can’t switch it on and off like. No wind.. no sun.. guess what, we don’t have enough water power plants. So, we still need fossils. And don’t say we have to store it, we can’t right now. And don’t say we should put more off-shore wind turbines in the sea.. no, electricity doesn’t transfer that well over distances. I still support the green movement but some people are just darn delusional.
Nuclear fission.
Germany wants to have a word with you. My people got rid of it…
Indeed, unfortunately. I expect that in the near future, whilst other nations begin to recognise that nuclear fission is the sole way to generate significant amounts of energy that are unaffected by environmental conditions without causing environmental mayhem, Germany shall be forced to revert their stupid decision.
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You're referring to the current state of nuclear power, whereas, albeit without much specificity, my comment was about improving the current state of nuclear power.
Therefore, surely it isn't implausible that Germany would merely subsidize this storage and mandate that it be processed nationally? Or rather, that Germany's government merely deal with the problem responsibly despite transferral to different nations, such as Finland, which is designing storage facilities for all of the world's nuclear waste.
For the stability that it provides, which we objectively require if we are to cease to use fossil fuels, nuclear fission is the option that fulfills this the most cleanly.
Both wind and solar can easily be switched off. We even can predict the weather accurate enough to plan a day ahead on how much wind/solar is going to be available.
Yes, we can't decide when the wind blows or the sun shines but having "overcapacity" is not as much of a problem as many people seem to assume it is.
Never stated the opposite.
Germany cut Russian gas, this is the price.
This has been decided long before the whole Ukraine war and has been in the German media for a looong time. You can blame it on quitting nuclear, but not on reduced gas imports.
Nah, let's think about how properly adopting nuclear decades ago when it was feasible would have prevented all of this and led to a much more preferable reality, but a bunch of stupid, anti-nuclear lefties screeched and screamed so it didn't happen.
What's worse is that a lot of those people are still alive today and, because they don't want to admit they were wrong, are still vehemently anti-nuclear and still screeching like the morons they are and still holding back progress.
Germany doesn't have the winds needed for wind turbines. They also dont get enough sun for mass solar farms either. Ever since they weened off of Russian gas and oil, they've had to make up for it somehow and that somehow is the shit ton of coal that Germany has. As they get new supply routes, LNG facilities, and pipelines built from a middle east country, their coal use will go down again eventually.
Good. Should have accepted those wind plants instead.
I mean, clearly someone wants the coal, they’re not extracting it from the ground just for the hell of it.
Yep, everyone wants wind farms, but not in their backyard.
Because on windy days you really do the lüften, anlieger bekommen besser schallisolierte fenster, bei wind sollte man eh nicht unbedingt lüften weil dann fenster zuknallen wegen luftdruckdynamiken die schnell unterschätzt sind…
because they would inconvenience some people in villages nearby.
You have very little sympathy. There are people who go insane from living next to wind turbines, it is hell to have that noise in your head 24/7 all the time.
And then think about how villages like this are still being fucking
crushed to dust and people resettled for coal that nobody wants anymore
I think there still are people who want it. People who want money. Specifically from lignite
How the hell does this still have such a lobby in German politics and renewables don't? I genuinely don't get it.
the big energy companies in Germany already heavily invest into renewables but they are so many more billions of euros into coal invested already
the energy companies aren't dumb, they shift into renewables but try to maximize their profit on the way
careful what you say around that subject, wind can be good when done right but a lot of rushed and illegal projects are being built lately because of a "wind power rush" lots of nature being demolished bog's being excavated releasing lots of c02, endangered species of birds being ignored etc etc, people living near windmill projects have to put up with a lot of illegal shit being done. i'm all for renewable energy but lately the projects are purely for profit with lots of corner cutting and not actually for environmental benefits.
also some shady shit with people living near the windmills having to sign contracts saying they can never complain about the noise or make any official report of disturbances as a cause of them.
this is specifically for Norway but i have seen a lot of reports of the same stuff happening in Germany. a country that is shutting down its way better Nuclear power plants to focus solely on wind both imported and locally produced but to fill the hole in energy production has started using coal again.
Wind and coal are not equivalent in terms of energy (system, balancing, availability). Popular renewables (wind& solar) are far from the silver bullet they are advertised as. I am all for shutting down coal PP, but I just want to point out that the idea of replacing them with wind PP is not realistic, it's a false equivalence.
The true and terrible reason is that fossil fuel like coal is and will stay for the years to come absolutely essential for Germany's power grid stability and completeness.
The thing is the wind doesn’t always blow. Maybe environmentalists should stop their opposition to nuclear power to reduce coal consumption
Germany is about as backwards as trump's america jesus
It's not as if this was decided recently. Now they are fighting about how tho deal with this old agreements and how long remaining plants are allowed to run. Which is at least some kind of progression.
The conservative state government of Nordrhein-Westfalen profited for decades of the coal mining. There are various connections between politicians and mining industry. Lots of corruption. See greenpace's "Schwartzbuch" for example to get a list. Or everything what happened around the "Hambacher Forst"- Protests, which was a big protest against one of these coal mines.
All in all it's just a matter of time untill coal plants and mines all die out. If you look how Germanys energy production mix is changing in recent years, at least the tendency looks good. It's just the speed...
This is a pretty simplistic view of the global energy landscape.
You can't currently provide an electrical grid baseload with any renewable other than hydro, and even that can have huge disadvantages such as drought and floods. For those to provide baseload, we need mass battery storage and the technology just isn't there yet.
For baseload, you need the thermal based electrical generation; be it coal, gas, or nuclear. With the price of gas being what it is, even with regional carbon taxes coal is the "economical choice" for energy generation. For nuclear you have a whole set of other variables like supply chain for parts, industry and governmental cooperation (not every nation gets to play with the cool tech), and fuel supply. It's nice to say "gas is cleaner" or "nuclear is the answer", but then you get into the whole socio-economic side of things, and macro-economics and it becomes a much large issue than just "coal bad, booo."
Environmentally speaking, coal is bad. That fact is undisputable. But when you try to force an entire energy industry into "clean" and renewable generation at the drop of hat that you cause hardships on consumers in the form in exorbitant kWh prices. I don't know enough about economics to comment on the impacts, but Canada is a prime example of wildly fluctuating energy prices and the impacts it's had on the populace due to a rapid push to abandon coal.
"It's all good if it's not my village"
It makes me so angry when people complain about how ugly wind turbines are. Like motherfucker do you know where most of power comes from now?
Check out the song 'Paradise' by John Prine for an artful example of the damage of coal.
You still need base load plants. With the nat gas stupid that putins playing, and the length of time to takes to build nukes, coal is the only real option for base load generation right now.
Excuse me and correct me if I'm wrong, but Germany has the most solar panels installed in whole Europe. They closed a shitload of nuclear power plants and has totally bought into the green movement. Except it didn't work out for them so they are back at square one with the fossil fuels.
Isn't it basically what's happening in Germany or am I totally misinformed?
Wish we could just build some nuclear power and actually have a long term solution lol
Makes sense doesn't it?
If I had the choice at being inconvenienced (sounds and shades) by windmills in my backyard on a daily basis, or a big pile of cash for my house I wouldn't hesitate for long which one I'd choose.
That trade-off doesn't need much lobbying at all. One of them sucks and the other one is nice FROM A PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE SPEAKING, not from the perspective of environment and society.
Of course windmills are great, but Nimby is strong here. When you sell your house it's not Nimby anymore.
It's false to say nobody wants coal anymore, if nobody wanted it they wouldn't be mining it.
Think about how the regions look where all the copper, lithium, and cobalt for wind power plants is mined.
I'm not defending coal mining, extending the life-time of coal power plants is abhorrent idiocy. But wind power plants also don't exactly grow on trees...
(Edit) I'll add a very insightful presentation for perspective: The quantity of metal required to make just one generation of renewable tech units to replace fossil fuels
when you destroy all of your nucelar powerplants and replace them with coal power "for the environment"
I would bet the same protestors were protesting against the use of nuclear energy that this coal is being mined to replace.
The thing is on Germany every single power plant is system relevant, means i can't be shut down or else it endangers power supply in case of low wind and sun. Therefore the coal power plants need to keep running.
Difference is that windfarms dont get built because people dont want that to happen. While towns are being destroyed for coal because the people want that to happen.
Why? Money. The coal companies offer the inhabitants of the town a buyout. If a big company offered a buyout for anyone who wanted to move out of a town so that they can build a windfarm, then im sure windfarms would be built near that town.
Its two different groups, the ones living close to coal mines would likely love to have wind power plants built. But the ones who have wind mills close don't want more, not grasping that the idea of a coal mine nearby would be so much worse. But since its not happening, they do not care and just don't want any more wind power plants.
Renewable energy was simply slept on for too long, we should've started way sooner to more normalize the idea of having wind power plants nearby, or solar farms.
People have been making money off coal for a long time now, not so the same for renewables.
Established, old money. Damn wannabe aristocrats
It's cheaper. Simple as that
Germany is almost on the max with how much wind their network can support. Wind or solar is not a sollution in Germany.
Interesting, link?
Spoiler alert, Germany need coal because of wind power and "renewables".
A story from my grandparents village! No one wants windpower there. It is loud, and the shades are anyoing as fuck, and you can’t use the land around it. They buy land just so those company’s can’t build them there. The energy firms know that there is close to no point trying to buy land there because no one is selling it. The same goes for solar. People hella riot when they build new solar plants there because it destroys their environment. In a city that all doesn’t matter and you only have the plus. And I can tell you most of those people live more environmentally the. People in towns. Same goes for cars instead of public transit. Just not doable in those places. The Green Party in Germany has 24% of votes in the city’s compared to 4,9 on the country side(this is not enough to get voted into any institution in Germany). It’s a lot of woke politics for people in the city. No one I know there would vote for the Green Party and honestly you should have insane votes on the countryside but that is not the case. Furthermore and more important we need coal, oil and gas for much more then fuel!
There must be tons of stupid in your village. In my region people made stupid amounts of money with early subsidies. It's now much less profitable, because of almost no subsidy anymore, but still absolutely wasteful to not use the space you have available.
Ever heard of agriculture? They buy out the land and then rent it out to local farmers. Easy as that. Do your people enjoy that there are windmills anywhere?
i don't understand the issue? I live in Lower Saxony and every windpark here has fields underneath it. The footprint of a turbine is minimal and there is more than enough space between them to farm whatever you want.
Wind turbines? No, I think about how many nuclear reactors aren't being built. :(
Germany closed 16.4 gigawatts of nuclear electricity since 2011. So don't be surprised when the have to make up for most of it by burning millions more tons of brown coal.
for coal that nobody wants anymore.
If nobody wanted it, they wouldn't be doing it.
They're not buying the villages from the people, they're buying them from the local government, which in turn is kicking the people out of their properties :)
Some of those people lived in houses that were in the family for generations. Hundreds of years old. And now all of that is getting wiped for some fucking coal. And not even good coal. The worst coal you could extract.
Well if that's how things are there is absolutely no legitemacy whatsoever for the government to cancel any wind turbine/nuclear power plant project over the people in the region not wanting it.
If you can sell a village to be shredded you can handle ignoring a few selfish dipshits.
Welcome to the German culture of suing the government over anything. Good luck. Also the local government doesn’t care cause the wind turbine lovers aren’t their voters.
You know I sometimes forget Germany is a federation. Could the lands refuse to build a plant the federal government ordered? Could the federal government even order a plant to be built?
I have literally no clue. There's a reason they make you study your state's laws for 7 years to give you the permission to even have opinions on that. Shit is too convoluted I have no idea.
Idk depends on the thing.
If its nuclear, i believe all levels of government have a veto for storage sites, county, state, and federal.
For other shit? Well idk for sure but since power plants are built and operated by private corporation's the state government always has to approve the plans.
Hamburg famously tried to stop Vattenfall from building a coal plant in tbe city-state.
Eventuelly a Green Party led government passed a law pretty much exclusively banning coal fired plants, they got sued for discriminatory laws, and Hamburg got the new Moorburg Coal/Gas cogeneration plant.
This plant required so much concrete that it is particularly damning to the environment, but hey, ita built now, so at least we can use it for cleaner gas / maybe hydrogen for the next 40 years, right?
Wrong! They are closing the plant after 6 years because they need to lower emissions but this plant never got approval for a steam network connection which heats the city, so they are keeping a 40 year old coal plant online even longer while decomissioning the new and presumably cleaner / more efficient plant.
Its fucking insanity.
Great, one more area where the US is not the worst! Well, we might be tied for the worst.....
Hold my beer - murica
It's unlikely Germany would even need to bulldoze these villages or need the brown coal underneath them if they hadn't closed 16,441 megawatts of clean nuclear electricity since 2011.
That is bad framing. We wouldn't need the coal if the same government had invested in renewables. They actually did the opposite and the whole renewable industry tanked, taking tens of thousands of jobs with it.
Nuclear energy was on its way out anyway, there were no plans for more power plants because they are cost inefficient and take decades to construct. Should we have kept the old ones running till their calculated end of life? Yeah, probably. But they weren't that prominent in the energy mix in the first place.
Renewable energy is the way to go and Germany was on the right path before Merkel's government crushed it.
We live in reality. And in the real world, the German Greens demanded a ban on nuclear energy decades before a phaseout of coal because they are religious lunatics. And so the German government demanded the closing of 16,441 megawatts of nuclear capacity since 2011 (actually more than that since the original decision to ban nuclear energy). And they not only embarked on increased coal burning at existing coal fired power stations, but built thousands of megawatts of new coal fired generating capacity, with new units being brought as recently as 2020 (1,100 megawatt Datteln Unit 4). The increase in coal burning resulting directly from the phaseout of nuclear power since 2011 amounts the total emissions of 37 African countries. Germany is also now buying up shipments of coal and LNG earmarked for developing nations, causing power rationing in the developing world. The African delegations at COP27 are furious about this.
Not prominent in the energy mix? I don't know what you're smoking, but 27% of the energy mix is definitely "prominent". Variable renewables require backup, as no grid scale storage exists. So that backup can either be provided by mountains of lignite heaped up in power station coal yards, or by uranium sitting quietly in a nuclear reactor core. The choice is yours.
Quit your nuclear power plant BS. Nuclear energy in germany is dead. There aren't any new nuclear power plant projects. In fact the entire research sector about nuclear energy in Germany has completely gone. With wind turbines I agree. It's the hipocrisy by the german government. Expropriation for Autobahnen (highways), gigantic lignite mines and such? No problem at all. Shrinking a property for a cycle path, a train line or other things? Don't dare to do that!
They get paid ridiculously well. I know people that got rich of the property they received as compensation.
Wrong. They negotiate with RWE who owns the lignite mine.
Whenever I drive by that giant hole and look at the flat fields it left behind as the mine moved along I always think about that in this very hole were villages. Now it's all gone. There is literally an Autobahn (highway) going right through the lignite mine where villages nearby used to be. It has been rebuild a while ago after it has been demolished 20 years ago to make place to the lignite mine
I live in the area as well and drive by quite often. While the most did negotiate, not everyone did. And the ones that refused to sell were indeed kicked out.
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Most of them happily left for money tbh. Some were forced. Also, greedy corporations were always the true colonialists
It's not like they only removed that one tiny village. And most of the people are happy with that because they get bought out and can then build expensive new homes with the money.
And a lot of people in Holzweiler were pretty pissed when it was announced that Holzweiler would not be removed. There is a documentation about the guy running the gas station in Holzweiler who always thought that getting bought out was his retirement money. Now he's not only not getting that but there's also much less customers because half the villages around Holzweiler are gone.
That's not how it works. You get payed above market value if you sell willingly. The state only uses eminent domain when you don't sell. But yes, it should not happen.
If the government (of any country) was going to seize my family's historic residence through eminent domain, I would commit a terrorist attack.
Then you’ll get free housing forever, in a maximum security prison.
No I would die which is better than letting the government steal my family's heritage without a fight
Very mentally stable
Hey if he’s gonna take out the plow I’m in full support
Yeah dude I'm not talking about some mutually beneficial project. If they were going to tear up your family's generational farm to mine coal what would you do honestly?
Take the money they give you and buy a new house somewhere else? Like a rational grown up would do?
I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet and as long as they're targeting the right people I wouldn't even be mad.
Not true. There are price negotiations with every home owner that is resettled. The local government has no say in the invidual compensation of the residents that are resettled
Yeah.. good luck saying no. There are interviews with people that were forcibly relocated because they refused to sell.
Actually, living in nearby Cologne I know a few people, whose houses were bought from the Rheinbraun company. They negotiated with the company directly and were all pretty happy with the results. All had very old and small houses and got enough money to build bigger new ones and still had some significant money left afterward. The vast majority of homeowners didn't need to be forcibly relocated.
I live in the area as well and have met one person forcibly relocated. Yes, most people sell them by themselves but some refuse and the state kicks them out, which in my opinion shouldn’t happen.
It has to happen. Energy projects like these are too important to be scrapped because of one non-cooperative person. That's why governments have the power of eminent domain in the first place.
*too important
Just to let you know
That is true. The reason why this is possible is that the resettlement is for the public good. As per German law, the public good stands above the individual good, making the expropriation you mentioned possible. The individual is still compensated. However, I also know many examples where people could sell their properties way above marked prices. And it is a fact, that the power company compensates very well compared to marked prices. Of course, there are two sides to every coin. I would also hate having to give up the house and village I grew up in.
Yeah, that article is in the German constitution. Basically the state can nationalise or expropriate you if they decide to do so. I don’t find that especially bad, but I honestly find it horrendous when it’s obviously not done for the public good but for some corporate overlords.
Germany and especially the state of North Rhine-Westphalia still depend heaviliy on lignite for power production. So one could argue that these mines are for the public good, especially in times like these. What is the alternative? Shut all lignite mines and power plants down uncontrolled without having an alternative ready that could compensate the loss of electricity at a moments notice? These mines were approved many decades ago. The final pit shell and consequently the entire layout and advance of the mine, equipment composition, etc. were more or less cut in stone long time ago. Even if the power company would stop extracting coal today, the village that is going to be excavated could not be saved in any case due to geotechnical reasons. In order for the final pit shell to be stable longterm (i.e. for ever), the slope needs to be flattened significantly. The village (which is not a village but rather a farm that was already sold by the previous owner some time ago) is right at the crest of the slope. Just blaming corporate greed without considering any of the side effects does not help anybody.
Well it kind of is corporate greed that has gotten us here in the first place. As in, the lack of investments in alternative energy sources (nuclear and green) were all mandated by coal and oil lobbyists. Now you’re sadly right, there isn’t much else to do. Germany has already dug itself into that hole. I just hope we take this as a lesson for the future and stop the corporate greed.
Exactly. The change shoud have happened many decades ago. But times were different then without alternative energy sources on the agenda, I guess.
I also don't think you can characterize opening new coal mines as "for the public good". The German government has been downright negligent in not switching to renewables fast enough, and prioritizing decommissioning nuclear plants for the past decade instead of coal. The fear of nuclear power they've allowed to run energy policy since Fukushima created Germany's energy crisis today and is now used as an excuse to allow coal companies to kick people out of their homes and continue to pollute.
The fact that home owners are compensated well does not absolve the government or the coal company of these crimes.
The mine is not being newly opened up. It has been running since 1940. The resettlement was approved many decades ago.
I don't really care about the distinction between a completely new coal mine, and destroying a town to expand a coal mine. The fact is Lützerath has not yet been demolished, and the plans to demolish it were only made in 2020: https://www.dw.com/en/l%C3%BCtzerath-how-germanys-energy-crisis-reignited-coal/a-64203214
In 2023 expanding coal power is absurd
The resettlement of Lützerath and other settlements was already part of the mine's general operating plan (Rahmenbetriebsplan) that formed the basis for approval decades ago before mining even commenced. The resettlement of Lützerath was just taken up in politics again in order to finally decide on its fade after what happened in the Hambach forest. I don't really care what your or others opinion on this matter is. I just can't stand all these half-truths.
Also: the mine is not extended but in fact being phased-out in the coming years. In comparison to the initial operating plan it will even be smaller than planned. It is just technically impossible to close such a mine on short notice. Not even considering the implications it would have on the economy and society. If this mine was to be closed in 2023, the desicion must have been made years ago.
2020 was when RWE began physically demolishing houses in Lützerath which made it the focus of German climate activists. But the resettlement of the former inhabitants of Lützerath had already started in 2006, by 2020 only 8 of the original residents remained. The people that are now being forcibly removed are almost all climate activists squatting in the remaining houses, not original residents.
The (political) decision made in 2020 was about whether to continue with demolishing the settlement as planned or stopping the mining short of it as part of the coal phaseout.
The fear of nuclear power they've allowed to run energy policy since Fukushima
The German anti-nuclear movement didn't start with Fukushima. Protests against new nuclear plants in the late 1970s were so heavy that some feared the beginnings of an "ecological civil war". It was one of the main driving factors behind the founding of the German green party.
Another big surge came after the Chernobyl disaster. In case you don't know, Germany was directly affected by that. I still remember not being allowed to play outside as a kid back then. And parts of Southern Germany are still so highly contaminated with Caesium 137 that it's not advised to eat mushrooms or wild boar meat from the forests.
Germany's nuclear industry getting caught doing highly illegal stuff (like intentionally releasing radioactive dust from the experimental THTR reactor in Hamm under the cover of the radiation cloud from Chernobyl or dumping nuclear waste into the Asse II mine even though they already knew that the mine was unstable) didn't help things either.
Fukushima was just the point where even German conservatives began fearing not to get reelected in case they kept their pro-nuclear stance.
Yeah what they're saying is just nonsense
I don't understand how this is legal. I'm in a developing country and work in the mining sector. We can do fuckall if just one farmer says nah I don't wanna sell, there's too many legal protections in place. The municipality has no right to sell his land on his behalf. I can't imagine doing that to a whole village...
I don't understand how this is legal. I'm in a developing country and work in the mining sector. We can do fuckall if just one farmer says nah I don't wanna sell, there's too many legal protections in place. The municipality has no right to sell his land on his behalf. I can't imagine doing that to a whole village...
I was wondering how one buys a village..
They kick the people out but with significant financial compensation and new villages somewhere else. Still shit, but not nearly as bad as you claim. Also several villages have been saved too that were originally assumed would be demolished
I never claimed they didn’t get compensation but some things you just can’t compensate
And yet the Conservative government in the UK is giving the go-ahead to a new coal mine in England in 2023. But I suppose it would be shocking if that particular group of individuals ever did the right thing.
yeah the UK government checks what makes sense and then invests a bunch of money into the opposite... The thing is, the only way the conservatives actually get votes is with stunts like that.
Even though they did build a new big nuclear power plant... but which is way above budget and way behind schedule and is currently planned to produce some of the most expensive energy on earth due to an enormous government price guarantee to make up for all of these financial failures.
I'm not even opposed to nuclear energy in principle, but its results in practice are often pretty bad. It takes an enormous upfront investment and it can easily take 20 years until it actually starts producing energy and make up for the financial and CO2 debt of its construction.
Basically countries that have already figured out how to build reactors and have a long-term solution to their final storage problem should continue this way. But there are a lot of countries that would be better off to just sidestep all of these issues, get rid of the regulatory and infrastructural overhead required to run any nuclear facilities, and focus on renewables and expansion of storage capacities.
I really hope we finish viable fusion so this whole comment becomes a moot point. It feels like the only hope the world has to reverse the climate crisis.
Waiting for fusion is like waiting for unicorns to power your civilization. The gods have already given us an enormous supply of cheap, carbon-free power in the form of hundreds of trillions of tons of uranium and thorium in the earth's crust. Cost overruns are arguments for standardization and serial production. And waste isn't an issue at all. We don't need or want a repository. We want that waste nearby so we can use it as fuel in other reactor types.
I thought the coal from that new mine is going to be used for steel making no?
The UK steel industry has specifically said that they don’t want or need the coal from Cumbria as it isn’t suitable for steel making
I don’t mean to be a dick, but the UK isn’t the only country with a steel industry.
No, but the only justifiable reason to build a coal powerplant in 2023 would be to support industries reliant on it, like steel - and even that was tenuous. Mining shit coal to export makes fuck all sense.
Dingus, the way you stop these kinds of things is by stopping the use of coal, not it’s mining.
Chungus, I agree with you. Can we agree that creating new mines instead of investing in renewable sources is dumb?
Instead? You can do both.
Coal for steelmaking is also on its way out.
There are already several pilot plants using hydrogen as a reducing agent, instead of coal. Of course you still need a bit of coal for alloying, but that is a much much lower amount.
I keep hearing all these amazing things we'll use hydrogen for, and yet nobody has any good ideas for how we'll produce it at scale, except for (fossile) natural gas.
Hydrogen for iron reduction does currently come from natural gas mostly, however it's also straightforward to switch it over to electrolysis hydrogen when that becomes cheaper (and it will when the quantity of renewables required to fill other uses is built). You can't do that with a plant designed to be run off coke, and because you need a chemical reducing agent you have to use options are pretty much limited to some sort of hydrogen source or some sort of carbon source.
That said, a lot of the other uses for hydrogen that get suggested are more greenwashing, scepticism for anything that uses hydrogen where there is also the potential for an electric motor or a fuel cell is being used to convert hydrogen back into electricity is warranted.
however it's also straightforward to switch it over to electrolysis hydrogen when that becomes cheaper
That's included with "no good ideas". Hoping for electricity to become free isn't a solution, that's a prayer.
Right, but electricity doesn't need to be free, it only needs to be cheaper than carbon capture does, because that's the alternative. In order to achieve carbon emissions reductions globally, iron and steel carbon emissions need to go down by ~95%, so carrying on with coke or natural gas fuelled plants would require carbon capture, while plants which are set up to be able to run on hydrogen don't. The cost saving from that more than makes up for the cost of installing and running a hydrogen production plant at your ironworks.
Electrolysis hydrogen comes viable overnight if carbon is taxed fully for the damage it does.
Industrial civilization would collapse overnight if you tried to tax carbon for the "damage" it does (while ignoring that it has massively raised the standard of living and raised average human lifespan from 35 to 79).
Definitely would. We need to drastically change our whole civilization to stop the continual damage to the Earth. Our current plans are to push heavily polluting industry to Asia and waiting for technology to solve everything without sacrificing anything.
(while ignoring that it has massively raised the standard of living and raised average human lifespan from 35 to 79)
That is mostly from reducing child mortality.
Yes, and none of that reduction in child mortality comes without massive exploitation of energy to build sanitary and medical infrastructure.
Desalination and electrolysis stations located by the sea and powered by nuclear reactors would be an interesting approach that’s doable with today’s technology but I bet it wouldn’t be cost effective.
That's the least efficient way to make hydrogen from nuclear energy. You need high temperature reactors capable of driving the sulfur-iodine cycle directly with nuclear heat.
I had no idea that was a thing, that’s really cool.
Shhh. Domestic Industry bad.
Outsourcing your industry and CO2 emissions to India and China good.
Building renewables and nuclear in your country is "outsourcing emissions? You gotta explain that to me, surely I'm missing something.
Please google where does the steel come from and report back with your findings.
Lol the steel? Sweden makes steel and I'm sure most countries do.
Can they do it without coal?
but that's not what your comment was about, you were being snarky about having to import steel from far away which just isn't true.
Without domestic coal production, you need ship the coal for the steel production across the globe. Does it sound reasonable and carbon neutral to you?
Not to mention that steel production is declining across the EU, whilst it's on the rise in China and India.
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As a left-winger: stfu. Wouldn't it be amazing if things were that simple. Christ, read a history book.
The terrorism backlash from that would be apocalyptic. Get your head out of the sand you goddamn ostrich
imagine complaining against coal minin when you are paying record high prices never seen before for electricity and the inflation on every single item in the shop is 20% or more
lmao
"please save the nature" said the guy dying of poverty
People are literally freezing to death (on the margins, mostly old, sick, and very young people) and nobody is talking about expanding the energy supply. Hydraulic fracturing needs to be allowed in Europe. It is outrageous and unethical for the UK and Germany to ban fracking and then buy their gas from North America and push the externalities off onto American citizens.
That is total nonsense. The power utility that operates these lignite mines had in fact significantly reduced the annual mining capacity up to February 2022. Due to Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the consequent engery crisis in Germany, the state of Germany demanded the power utility to increase coal production again. It is not driven by greed for profit. The power utility would in fact rather get rid of its lignite mines and power plants since its focus has been shifted to renewable energy production some years ago. That is also the reason why the company now accelerates the lignite phase-out from 2038 to 2030 on its own. Tens of thousands of jobs are directly and indirectly linked to these lignite mines and power plants in a structurally rather rural area of Germany. The lignite phase-out must therefore be socially compatible, without compromising Germany's power supply and grid stability. But that is probably not sensational enough for reddit.
The lignite phase-out must therefore be socially compatible,
Get the people new training. The job center is there for that. First we must make sure our planet can be human compatible, then we can make our energy policies socially compatible. Get your priorities straight.
without compromising Germany's power supply and grid stability.
This must be achieved using lignite? That is written in the constitution? What scientific reason would we use lignite to power the transition over nuclear?
What does using lignite over nuclear have to do with the constitution or science? It is the result of a series of political decisions. One of them is the phase-out of nuclear energy after Fukushima. Of course it does not make sense from todays perspective to first phase-out nuclear energy and then lignite. It should be the other way round. Or rather leave nuclear energy as many other countries do. The German political decisions in the last decades have created the boundary conditions we find ourselves in today. Within these boundaries we have to find technical solutions to meet the energy demand. What alternative do we have short-term other than lignite? Many nuclear reactors have been permanently shut down and (partly) dismantled already.
What does using lignite over nuclear have to do with the constitution or science?
I said its NOT in the constitution meaning it can be changed by a simpler legislative process, and its not logical or scientific what we are doing, so there is a sound argument upon which to change the law.
This whole thing is serious of bad decisions with foreseeable consequences which should have been mitigated earlier.
Everyone warned germany about energy dependancy with Russia. If this means we have to use lignite to get through this winter, then i would be demanding a large scale plan to rectify this shit show. Im talking 100 billion pledged to build storage capacity on the grid, so our 222 billion euros of renewables can actually help us out consistently.
Where is the plan to get renewables over the threshold that would allow us to entirely stop lignite extraction? There isnt one forthcoming, so im forced to except the fact that germany doesnt want to really be climate neutral, not when they still have unexploited fossil fuels in their ground.
The companies are trying to keep up with the demand from German industry, which as of late was being aided by coal power generation. They basically had the same carbon output as Poland during this time, who aren’t known for being as “green” as Germany, thats for sure.
And all of this because Germanys own renewable fleet completely failed to produce any significant output in the dead of winter. So it was either remain environmentally friendly and halt most industry and heating for homes, or support both by reverting back to lignite coal in to keep things in order. In doing so, Germany unwound years of carbon displacement that was being staved off by wind and solar. In the end, even the greenest and most progressive energy polices will encounter the reality of actually having to maintain a constant baseload output. We need reliable sources (nuclear, hydrogen) to meet our net zero goals, which do not have any intermittency issues to speak of.
While it’s true that last months share of renewables was unusually low (below 30% rather than the usual ~50%), the main reason for the increased share of coal, is quite obviously the war in Ukraine, which heavily restricts the amount of gas available for energy production, since most is needed for heating. To further amplify this issue, Germany had to further increase energy production from fossil fuels to support and export to France, due to the country’s reliance on ailing nuclear reactors.
The original plan (to rely on renewables as a base load with a backup of gas and in future hydrogen) is still quite feasible, but the CDU did their best during the last decade to sabotage progress
Please stop being surprised by known trends :
We knew wind fields could be disrupted by climate change.
And relying on gaz from the crazy east EU neighbor was a recipe for disaster too.
And solar panels production rely way too much on China goodwill.
And it's the same with batteries.
And it looks like we follow the same trend with H2 electrolysis.
You're right France inability to modernize its aging nuclear plants is plain dumb and a lot of this is due to short-sighted political reasons and because of our own politicians dumbassery that left EDF underfunded but at least the ASN does its job well with safety first in mind : I would be glad the Germans coal power plant were as safe.
By the way France has been among the biggest electricity exporter since 2013 (typically around 10% of its typical production of at least 500 TWh per year).
And you're right in 2022 France is a net importer for prolly 5% or less of its electricity (20-25 TWh out of at least 500 TWh).
But it'll be back to net exporter as usual in 2023 according to RTE which is a reliable source : they're in charge of the electrical grid and don't f*ck around.
Please be aware that for the last 5 years German's electricity has emitted an average of 480g CO2 eq / KWh to compare with 100g for France (please check with electricitymap).
It's not virtue signaling : every grams of Co2 we had or will release in the atmosphere force the climate to keep drifting for several centuries.
wind fields could be disrupted by climate change.
Literally every source of energy will be affected by climate change. Severe droughts will limit the amount of water available for cooling reactors as we have seen 2022 in France.
relying on gaz from the crazy east EU neighbor was a recipe for disaster too.
Which is something the greens have warned of for years, but it’s not really relevant for the debate here, since our need for natural gas stems from its use for heating and industrial purposes. Both topics not directly relevant to the debate here.
And solar panels production rely way too much on China goodwill.
And that’s why it’s a bummer that the CDU intentionally destroyed our domestic solar industry. But it’s nothing that could be remedied, if the political will is there.
And I’m obviously not denying that as of now, france is in a way better position regarding emissions than Germany, it’s just that I see renewables as more advantageous for Germany in the situation we’re currently having
Literally every source of energy will be affected by climate change. Severe droughts will limit the amount of water available for cooling reactors as we have seen 2022 in France.
You're right, but at least Nuclear has an already working solution. I'm not a proponent of nuclear energy per se but a proponent of having a real discussion of the pros and cons of each energy without ideology : I have been a member of the French's Greens for a long time and I have heard too many opinions based on anything but actual science.
since our need for natural gas stems from its use for heating and industrial purposes.
My understanding of the Energiewende is that gaz is needed to ensure baseload power is met when wind/solar is not producing, till a scalable storage solution is possible. Maybe I'm wrong.
And that’s why it’s a bummer that the CDU intentionally destroyed our domestic solar industry.
You're right that's actually a huge issue. Anedoctally one guy in my familly was in charge of opening a solar panel factory... it never opened because Chinese manufacturers began to dump cheap pannels in the market.
And please bear in mind China has a 60 % market share for rare earths too (critical for solar panels). That's something else to address.
it’s just that I see renewables as more advantageous for Germany in the situation we’re currently having
And that's something critical we should highlight : one country mix of solutions is rarely what others should do.
We could do something more efficient on the whole EU level but I don't see that coming in time (this is a race against time) and I don't believe the actual electricity markets are the solutions.
EDF as a monopoly was way more efficient price and Co2 wise but it couldn't integrate those EU market as it was (I still think it's a shame).
Green H2 electrolysis is a promising EU effort but energy efficiency is still not there if you want storage (from a poor 18-46% to a way better 65%).
EDIT: for the downvoters, please prove us wrong instead, we have biases and sometimes wrong/dubious sources : it's way better to point to those in an healthy debate like we actually have.
Yes, who would have thought that destroying 16,441 megawatts of carbon-free, clean, nuclear power since 2011 would lead to burning tens of millions of tons more lignite. Germany is a mess.
use for heating and industrial purposes. Both topics not directly relevant to the debate here.
You can heat with electricity, heat pumps are a thing in other countries. It is relevant because 40% of households heat using gas, unlike in Sweden, where 50% are on district heating (they generate lots of steamheat burning garbage) and 25% heat using electricity.
The main reason was not the lack of gas though. At least when looking at German electricity generation.
Coal plants basically ran continuously last year because France had significant issues with their fleet (plus lack of hydro in the Alp states).
France suddenly turned from one of the largest electricity exporters to an importer.
The original plan (to rely on renewables as a base load with a backup of gas and in future hydrogen) is still quite feasible,
Yes, feasible in an imaginary world where Germany exists in a bubble and can just make gas flow into its borders at will. The reality is what you see here, an increase in coal extraction because renewables are still not reliable as a baseload despite spending $222 billion since 2000.
The fact that you state that the renewables will be the baseload without mentioning the huge caveat - that it only works this way if you build massive storage - shows you're either purposely misconstruing the truth or are completely out of your element.
$222 billion dollars and we have no storage to show for it. So great, in the summers we can have some days of 100 renewable energy and pat ourselves on the back... While we burn everything we can get our hands on in winter just to get by.
Keep in mind that these people are also strictly against nuclear
Correct and their official stance is that they consider them dangerous, which is of course complete bullshit.
No idea how people in Germany willingly vote the Greens.
No idea how people in Germany willingly vote the Greens
By favoring marketing over reality
Which party would be the better choice with worse marketing?
There is none in Germany
In that case I don't understand your earlier comment. Are you trying to say that one should abstain from voting?
The Greens are the most socially and economically progressive major party. Sure the Left is there, but they hardly have any chance of making it into the ruling coalition federally although they're great in some state governments. I hate that they've killed any possibility of nuclear energy in Germany, but I also support the vast majority of their other policies and at least they also take renewables seriously.
The FDP is socially progressive but economically a joke and is under the thumb of the automotive industry. The SDP is better than the CDU but that's about all you can say about them. And every party except the FDP and and AfD is against nuclear now anyways, so it's not a huge political topic at this point.
No idea how people in Germany willingly vote the Greens.
Every party, except the right wing idiots, opposed nuclear by the last election. Only recently some of them changed their opinion about it.
Also the chances of finding a single party which agrees with you on every issue is zero. So obviously there are people who are in favor of nuclear but still vote for the greens, because they prioritize some of their other politics. Also it's been calculated numerous times by experts that Germany doesn't necessarily need nuclear power plants when going full renewable.
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Renewables plus a total lack of grid scale storage means that conventional thermal power generation is necessary. So that grid-scale storage will either be piles of filthy brown coal heaped up in power station coal yards, or it could be uranium sitting quietly in a reactor. The choice is yours.
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Sorry you're willfully deafening yourself and unable to be a grown ass person and dialogue with someone.
Yes, germany doesnt need nuclear when going full renewable - it has lignite deposits! Roll Coal til we have 150% renewables.
This is sustainable, right Fritz? Sure thing, Hans.
Yeah nuclear and dangerous that really Sounds weird....
No idea how people in Germany willingly vote the Greens.
What's the alternative?
Demanding the greens start nuclear?
Nuclear is great in theory but in practice it just hasn't lived up to it's promises. It's FAR too expensive and NIMBYism means nuclear waste sits in "temporary" facilities forever. It's a lot easier and cheaper to work out energy storage solutions for solar and wind than it is to convince people to let a nuclear waste repository exist. Not to mention the fact that you can construct solar and wind farms in months vs the 10-15 years for your average nuclear plant. Even if we decided to go all in on nuclear today, not a single plant would come online soon enough to avoid a global warming catastrophe. Especially when you consider that we would end up relying more heavily on fossil fuels during that construction period as we literally couldn't afford to throw the trillions of dollars it would take to build enough nuclear energy at the problem on top of spending money on building out renewables.
I always find it funny that people who declare nuclear "the only solution" and adopt this posture of being the only adults in the room are the ones most guilty of handwaving serious issues.
Edit: changed respiratory back to repository
You say that in a thread about a giant excavator destroying a village and nature to leave a giant moon crater behind only to burn the dirtiest of coal.
Yes, nuclear isn't great, but that's not a decision between the plague or cholera, it's between a cold and the black death. No one in their right mind wants to build new reactors, that would take far to long in germany, but dismantling the old ones is fucking dumb. Giving up nuclear first was a cruel joke and people like you are indirectly responsible for an unimaginable natural disaster.
I'm just a realist. I take the world as it is rather than how I wish it was. A massive expansion in fission power will remain a fantasy unless someone finds a cheap way to convince millions of people that currently believe fox/sky news that they should spend green new deal levels of money on nuclear power sources to replace their beloved coal and oil.
Are you a realist? A realist would acknowledge that rebuilding the grid for renewables takes decades, that storage mechanisms on that scale don't exist yet and that our energy demand will only grow with electrification.
In the meantime the damage to our environment is done. A realist would see that we already have nuclear waste, so we need permanent storage no matter what, we already have nuclear power plants which could be restocked and powered up and that nuclear is a much better alternative until renewables can provide all our energy needs than coal.
Nuclear isn't perfect and you want a perfect system that will not come to fruition any time soon. You're not a realist, far from it.
Edit: confused fission and fusion
He means fission, not fusion.
There are currently no fusion power plants. We only just last month obtained a net energy gain from fusion, so its still "a decade away", as they say.
I'm not a he, but we still haven't gotten a true net gain. That is a few years away when ITER comes online.
It takes 10 to 15 years to build a fission power plant on average. Do you know what happens if we decide to stop investing in renewables for 10-15 years to put the money into building nuclear plants?
Yes we do need permanent nuclear waste repositories, like I said, good luck figuring out where to build one.
As I said, don't build new ones, just simply don't close the old ones.
The ones being shut down are at end of life, its not politics or some public pressure campaign. They are simply too old to keep functioning. That is sort of the problem with nuclear reactors, you can't exactly go inside and fix corrosion and wear. Reactors have a defined lifespan just like every other piece of equipment and once that is over they need to be shut down and new ones built.
Before Fukushima they were intended to run into the 2030s, nuclear power plants don't have a sudden end of their lifespan, you can monitor their deterioration, gauge their safeness and repair if possible and needed.
This was very much a political decision.
Yes an accident occurred that exposed a weakness in a design previously thought to have plenty of safety margins. That changes end of life calculations. I'm not sure why you think that wouldn't result in plant engineers re-evaluating risks?
Do you expect a tsunami in bavaria anytime soon?
Engineers didn't make the decision, the german parliament made a political decision due to popular opinion.
First off that's not how risk mitigation works, potential failures are considered, then the potential cost of the failure is compared with the cost of mitigation strategies. In the case of a failure that would result in radioactive contamination of a large area and loss of life the mitigation strategies have to be robust enough to ensure a large failure cannot occur under any circumstances. You cannot operate a nuclear plant with the mindset of acceptable risk. The fact was that the cost of upgrading the backup systems at those plants was far in excess of the profitability of said plants for the lifespan they had left.
The tsunami only knocked the power out for an extended length of time. Are you saying it's impossible for the power to go out in Bavaria? What happens if a terrorist group that now has a play by play book on how to generate a nuclear accident using that generation of reactor decides to go for it. How much do you spend on security or hardening of the reactor facility. How much more do you spend on extra generators and fuel storage. How do you fix a design that has no ability to passively cool so that it is safe and do so in a way that makes sense for only a 10 year lifespan?
It's very clear you've never actually done any engineering as sitting in on any risk assessment session would have taught you that questions like that are very much the ones engineers ask.
What we're up against is climate change, something that threatens the very livelihood of large parts of the planet and it's already causes a mass extinction of unprecedented levels. We're fucking doomed if we head that way and that's a certainly. A nuclear catastrophe which is very unlikely is a walk in the park compared to it.
I don't know if people are so unaware what climate change means to millions of people or if they overestimate the probability and impacts of nuclear catastrophes. The tsunami killed ten thousands of people, the nuclear reactor zero. One made huge headlines, the other one was an afterthought.
Anti-nuclear folks and rabidly pro-nuclear folks are roughly on equal footing on the "knowledge in relation to confidence in knowledge" chart. The anti-nuclear people know nothing, they just got spooked by a series of nuclear accidents from the 80s to today, whilst the rabidly pro-nuclear folks know a little bit more, understanding that it can still be a worthwhile investment, but they both know fuck all about everything from how it works, the logistics, the investment, the timeframe, etc.
There is a fantastic video on YouTube that initially set out to answer the question of how many people were affected by Chernobyl, but the video quickly got out of the creator's hands and spun into so, so many aspects of nuclear energy. It is one of the most fantastic individual research videos I've ever seen on YouTube, and gave me a huge push to learn more about nuclear energy, rather than to parrot how nuclear energy is the solution to everything. I can try to find it again if you're interested.
Nah not really equal footing at all there, champ.
Anti- nuclear folks are arguing based on emotion, there isn't really a scientific reason not to expand nuclear when comparing our options.
You dont have to be a nuclear engineer to understand that storing your dangerous waste underground is safer than exhausting your dangerous waste into the air we breathe.
The economics of energy production are an irrelevant topic in light of the existential threat of continued climate change.
Having a habitable world is worth far more than whatever nuclear plants cost. That's not up for debate, you cannot assign a dollar amount to having a functioning ecosystem and planetary conditions that allow you to keep surviving.
I'm not anti-nuclear, goofball. Read my comment again.
That seems irrelevant, I was speaking to your assertion that the arguments are based on equally valid facts, not your personal opinion on the matter.
You are seriously underestimating the scale needed to effectively store enough energy to power a country in winter.
That is not easy, cheap, and especially not done quickly (like, not even in 10 years).
We dont even have large scale working models. It hasn't been done before on a national level.
The nuclear problems all have tried and tested solutions. It is a social issue, not necessarily a technical one. That means we could do it, even if I wasnt popular.
We cant just magically build the storage we would need for 100% renewables just because it is a popular idea.
It would take decades. And the whole thing compounds the larger you build it - as we electrify more and more sectors that were previously powered through combustion, our electric needs grow even if population size and energy use remain fixed. So as we transition, the size of the storage will remain n+1 for a very, very long time. We will forever be playing catchup, for at least one or two generations.
And we dont have thst much time.
Do you have any idea how long it takes to build a nuclear power plant and how expensive it would be to build and operate them?
It would seem you do not.
Funny, I do actually know the answer to that, and in a nutshell, its complicated.
In the United States, it takes about 5-7 years to build a "large scale" nuclear plant in the US according to the NEA (Nuclear Energy Agency). This is because the NRC (Nuclear Regulatory Commission) is involved and inspects just about everything that is constructed.
However, before that even begins, there's a whole bureaucratic planning process.
"This whole process, from the company choosing the site and design, getting them approved, the company issuing the COL and reviewing the COL takes about five years." (COL - Combined License, a regulatory license needed for commerical energy companies to build reactors).
Costs are difficult to estimate accurately but in general one large unit costs $6-8billion.
http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2017/ph241/park-k2/
America has 92 nuclear reactors.
China has 55, with a further 18 in various stages of completion.
China is currently the fasting growing nuclear nation and already the second largest by capacity so i think it's worth a comparison.
In China, they also have large bureaucracies to safely manage nuclear projects and they work in tight cooperation with the NRC. They take that shit seriously too.
However, China has an expedited approach and can build and commission plants to the same international standards but in a quarter of the time.
China approved two new plants last Fall with a total planned capacity of 1.2GW with a budget of $11billion. And they are expected to go online in 2024 and 2025.
https://www.power-technology.com/news/china-nuclear-power/#:~:text=The%20Chinese%20Government%20has%20given,bn%2C%20Yicai%20Global%20has%20reported.
Lastly, because chinese projects are financed by state backed banks, they have low interest rates which is what really drives up the cost of American projects due to the slow building process.
"That makes a huge difference because most of the cost of atomic energy is in upfront construction. At 1.4% interest, about the minimum for infrastructure projects in places like China or Russia, nuclear power costs about $42 per megawatt-hour, far cheaper than coal and natural gas in many places. At a 10% rate, at the high end of the spectrum in developed economies, the cost of nuclear power shoots up to $97, more expensive than everything else.
“People say nuclear is expensive in the West, but they forget to say it’s expensive because of interest rates,” Morin said."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-11-02/china-climate-goals-hinge-on-440-billion-nuclear-power-plan-to-rival-u-s
Nuclear Plants are expensive because we make it expensive, not because the technical building is crazy expensive. If jt takes 10 years to build and commission, you're accruing interest before you can even make money.
Nuclear can be cheap if we had a vitalized nuclear industry. America is only building two plants and before that the last license granted by the NRC was in 1996.
You cant maintain enough institutional knowledge if you dont have an active nuclear industry, and with it enough people who are trained to work in it, costs go up alot.
Yuuuup, and they are paying for it and are going to continue paying for it.
Oh well, stupid should hurt, that's how it learns.
Unfortunately one country cant avoid catastrophe simply by doing the logical thing. France will still suffer despite having low emissions because the rest of the world is having trouble thinking logically.
And all of this because Germanys own renewable fleet completely failed to produce any significant output in the dead of winter.
Do you have a source for this?
So it was either remain environmentally friendly and halt most industry and heating for homes, or support both by reverting back to lignite coal in to keep things in order.
This is just wrong. Most heating in Germany is district, run off gas or coal. Renewables only account for 7 percent of district heating. Even if RES output dropped over winter (and we're only midwinter), gas is the problem, not renewables.
In doing so, Germany unwound years of carbon displacement that was being staved off by wind and solar.
While it is true the German parliament has "passed a package of energy laws which include provisions to allow for the reactivation of coal-fired power plants or an extension to their lifespans" and that coal use has increased, carbon emissions have held steady (not unwound progress as you say). This is not great, but this is a result of over-reliance on gas, and not renewable failures.
It's funny you mention nuclear as reliable over renewables as well, given your article points out increased exports to France because of the failure of half its nuclear fleet has contributed to the situation Germany is in. Overall it seems you're conflating different, complicated issues to land on a "renewables bad/nuclear and hydrogen good" narrative, which is especially perplexing on the hydrogen front because it is so far off being a solution for anything it's laughable.
Check electricity map during the last 30 days in Germany.
electricity map
This shit confuses me because it shows 78% of the electricity coming from coal but then claims 62% are renewable energy sources. What am I understanding wrong?
EDIT: Had the setting wrong, my bad. 78% of it's carbon emissions are coal, but only 26% of the electricity comes from coal. So it provides 26% and is responsible for almost 80% of Germany's carbon emissions.
According to electricity maps wind and coal have produced almost 20GW each for the last 30 days, with carbon intensity the same as Poland at the beginning of December, but less than half of that since christmas day.
Solar was very little, circa 3 percent over the last 30 days, but basically the same level as the previous year.
Energymonitor shows basically the same figures.
So far the poster's claims look like bullshit.
I fail to see your logic. The overproduction of wind electricity produced during the second half of December doesn't cancel its absence during the first one during which, Germany did have the same co2 per kwh output of Poland.
I'm talking about the overall context of the previous poster's comments:
"They basically had the same carbon output as Poland during this time, who aren’t known for being as “green” as Germany, thats for sure. And all of this because Germanys own renewable fleet completely failed to produce any significant output in the dead of winter."
They didn't specify a timeframe. They're drawing a vague argument with only a reference to "the dead of winter" which the first two weeks of December absolutely is not, but whatever. You said 30 days, so looking at the 30 days of December on energy maps you do get a reduction in RES generation and rise in coal at the start of December, but a reduction doesn't equate to "completely failing", especially when followed by weeks of high generation - which can easily be planned around with a system that is built for intermittency, not reliance on baseload.
The poster was cherrypicking a short window to make Germany look as dirty as Poland, and to make RES look bad when it's gas policies (and nuclear failures) that have caused the energy crisis, not intermittency of renewable.
We all knew what time period OP was talking about and I don't see the point of debating about semantics.
The issue isn't OP's vocabulary but how renewables don't work when the weather is the coldest.
Do you have a solution to avoid that scenario to happen again?
What scenario? If you compare 2021 to 2022 December wind generation was lower, by half on a few days but not the full two weeks, solar was basically the same, and overall generation was down because consumption was down. Coal did increase, but regrettably, not catastrophically. This does not translate to "renewables can't do the job", and has almost nothing to do with heating as op says.
This is not semantics. This is about context, which you seem to want to ignore. OP is right about a few things, but is overall using an extreme situation to conflate the issues and talk bullshit about overall energy policy. You're echoing it with your "renewables don't work when the weather is coldest". I can just as easily say "France's nuclear fleet doesn't work when it's most needed" which is true, but not the whole truth either.
"I" don't need to give you solutions, because every fucking analyst and energy expert knows that renewables are a mature technology, with clear benefits and drawbacks, and that the energy crisis in Germany is about its pursuit of gas, and it's scaling back of the energiewende. This is a fossil fuel-driven crisis from every angle.
Oh, so you have the technology but you chose to burn coal and gaz anyway?
Interesting...
- which can easily be planned around with a system that is built for intermittency, not reliance on baseload.
Please, what part of building "a system for intermittency, not reliance on baseload" is easily done? If it was so easy, why do we not have this already?
You might make that statement sound easy, since you can express it using 44 characters, but that is a generational undertaking the likes of which he havent seen.
Youre essentially stating that it would be very easy to just have a complete paradigm shift of our entire energy system. Its a fool of a thing to say.
Please, what part of building "a system for intermittency, not reliance on baseload" is easily done? If it was so easy, why do we not have this already?
We haven't done it already because the ability to do it comprehensively has only come along in the last decade. We *could* have started the generational change, as you put it, when the Paris agreement was signed and all signatories understood (or should have understood) the reality of the decarbonisation challenge ahead, but inertia in politics and resistance from vested interests in fossil companies and elsewhere have made the transformation slow, piecemeal, and reliant upon existing infrastructure rather than building a true transformation. This is happening now, very quickly because of the energy crisis, but we have a long way to go to remedy the mistakes of the last decade+.
You're right in that it is a foolish thing to say this transition "is easy" given the different forces and interests at play, but from a purely technical standpoint - which is the point I was responding from - it is actually easy to plan around renewable intermittency if you have proper support infrastructure in place.
This is not great, but this is a result of over-reliance on gas, and not renewable failures.
That's only half the equation. If germany never decommisioned, there would be an extea 16,000MW of nuclear energy keeping coal use at bay.
Deleting nuclear meant nothing was allowed to "go crooked" as they say. The move to exit nuclear made the dependency on gas so much worse.
Because if we only needed gas for industry, our imports from Norway might be enough for that. Instead, we also need gas to heat and to baseload our grid. District heating from nuclear could have replaced the gas / coal fired district heating, and same for a large amount of the electric production.
That's only half the equation. If germany never decommisioned, there would be an extea 16,000MW of nuclear energy keeping coal use at bay.
Aye, albeit briefly, given most plants we're ageing out.
Deleting nuclear meant nothing was allowed to "go crooked" as they say. The move to exit nuclear made the dependency on gas so much worse.
Yeah, it would have been so much easier to cope through this crisis if the plants were still online. It sucks, but here we are.
Because if we only needed gas for industry, our imports from Norway might be enough for that. Instead, we also need gas to heat and to baseload our grid. District heating from nuclear could have replaced the gas / coal fired district heating, and same for a large amount of the electric production.
I'm not aware of any nuclear district heating plants existing in Germany, so not sure what it could have done to help in this crisis?
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Absolutely, it will have a number of really important uses fixing hard to solve problems, but heating is not one of them.
The gas industry is trying on the hydrogen for heating argument at the moment, but it's claims are absolute bullshit. No serious energy expert sees hydrogen filling this kind of gap.
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You can only safely blend up to 20 percent hydrogen with gas without major infrastructure upgrades. This is beneficial, yes, but the more you scale up the more onerous the retrofitting cost, the more expensive the production/transportation/storage of hydrogen is.
It's complicated. Hydrogen is absolutely a solution, but the true leap for heating is heat pumps and electrification.
It's complicated. Hydrogen is absolutely a solution, but the true leap for heating is heat pumps and electrification.
Which in turn raises our baseload by a huge amount.
Electrification is a double edged sword if you dont already have clean electricity. Which most of the world does not.
Which in turn raises our baseload by a huge amount.
Not if you expand RES, storage, and interconnection solutions intelligently.
Electrification is a double edged sword if you dont already have clean electricity. Which most of the world does not.
Aye. Which is why this transition needs to be approach holistically.
Methane is already a chief component of natural gas, diatomic hydrogen is what you make from renewables, not methane.
The rest more or less passes the sniff test, you get my upvote.
To burn H2 pure would require the entire network to be refitted. You can only dilute natural gas with H2 up to a specific amount before youve changed rhe density too much.
It works, but europe does not have hardly any domestic "green" H2. Germany is currently shipping it from Canada, which of course means the transport requires burning bunker fuel or marine gas oil, both of which are terrible polluters.
We are behind and there is so much to be done.
Yes but in the very long term as a gas replacement. You still have to:
All this, plus keeping in mind that H2 has less thermal energy per unit than gas does, so you need something like 150% the amount of gas in H2 to replace its energy value.
This will take us easily the rest of my life, probably longer, even if we start now.
Your comment has a negative truth content, it's basically an information black hole. It's making people dumber by reading your wrong assumptions and the wrong conclusions you draw. Not only are your assumptions and conclusions wrong, they are as far from the truth as you can get. Hilarious. Luckily, people here have already reamed you thoroughly. I'm just here to dog-pile and gloat. lol @ you
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You should check him much you're exporting to France, especially compared to other countries like the UK or Spain. None of that justifies your levels of co2 emissions.
and all of this because Germanys own renewable fleet completely failed to produce any significant output in the dead of winter.
So im pretty sure thats just 100% wrong. Got any source for that? Like yeah, its not 50% but its still incredibly significant, especially compared to almost any other country.
There was no wind and it was the middle of December. There were multiple consecutive days during which wind only produced about 7% of Germany's power.
To put it in perspective nuclear in Germany is about 6%.
But the bigger issue is that there is no solution for that.
There were multiple consecutive days during which wind only produced about 7% of Germany's power.
Even if that true, thats nowhere near "failing to produce any significant output in the dead of winter". Like its often over 40% for the whole year and even over 50% in the winter. That doesnt change because there are days without sun and wind. Even if this whole year is especially bad and its 30% that is still a incredibly significant output and better than most other countries that dont have massive hydro and offshore possibilities.
What you forgot to mention is that the non renouvelable percent are produced with fossil fuel when renewables aren't doing anything.
And you have no solution to solve that problem which is why your co2 emissions and renewables percentage have moved in five years.
on renouvelable percent are produced with fossil fuel when renewables aren't doing anything.
Well yeah, but theres times when renewables are basically 100%. The 40% is over the whole time. 40% is not only significant, its close to half.
Germany: 500g CO2/kWh
France: 72g CO2/KWH
Germany got it this low only recently and only after blowing a trillion dollars. France achieved their low carbon intensity electricity in the late 1980s/ early 1990s.
Which has nothing to do with what i was answering?
Kind of, it's nice to have a good EE output in parts of the year, but it's not a good overall system if it doesn't meet demand all the time. We still have to rely on burning fossil fuels, be they coal or gas because the grid and storage technology doesn't exist yet an will not until global change has made significant damage to our environment, killed off countless species, made huge swaths of land uninhabitable and caused countless disasters.
Our plan is shit, we're lagging behind and we're way too slow even or especially with the Greens in power.
Idk what you guys are arguing about, nothing about this has anything to do with what i answered to. You can sit and strawman all day, all i said was that 40% is not insignificant, which it obviously and demonstrably isnt.
What means significant? For me it's also about being scalable and at some point in the next decade providing all our energy needs without having to burn any more coal.
And it's five time more than France, by choice.
Do you understand that? Germany chose to polute more. They had the opportunity not to, and chose that anyway.
I have desperate hope for fusion.
We're at net positive energy now! Just... very, very slightly positive. Not yet commercially viable. But engineering is rarely a process of breakthroughs, it's more about iterative success. We didn't go from ENIAC to Ryzen overnight either.
Sigh... Its still a decade away /s.
The breakthrough is huge. But its just one small step in a series of many small steps and we are still many, many steps away from commercial production. I wouldn't hold my breath.
That the energy demands from the industry can't be met with just renewable energy is obviously the case right now, especially during months with such a low output. The constant baseload output that is necessary is just not possible with wind and solar as you mentioned. At least as long as we can't store the large amounts of excess energy during the times were we produce more than we can use (Hydrogen as you mentioned could be a solution). This is one issue, which I feel like isn't mentioned enough and you didn't mention it either, is that we produce so much excess green energy in northern Germany at times, that we have to pay millions of euros each year as compensation for the overload. This is partly also the case, because we are missing power lines that can transport the energy from the north to the south. IMO: The lack of power storages and power lines is one of the biggest issues and one of the reasons why we still need to dig up coal from beneath villages.
You need the coal because you destroyed 16,441 megawatts of clean nuclear capacity since 2011.
The overuse of coal has largely been driven by deficits in the market because French reactor shut down for safety and maintenance reasons for the majority of last year.
France was a net importer last year iirc.
Also, electric heating for homes is currently the exception in Germany.
Where can I read a source that gets the facts so jumbled?
Too bad those fuckers had them shut down their nuclear power plants so they have to rely on coal instead
The fact that germany spends hundreds of millions each year to keep pumps running in old mining areas just so the water will not destroy all the land around is abysmal.
Well, we need more coal to covered the nuclear plant that were closed.
Decisions have consequences, but populists don't want to accept it
Coal will not be phased out in Germany in 2030.
I even made a Long Bet about it.
https://longbets.org/925/
This needs to be the top comment because people are not fucking getting this
Imagine if Germany hadn't shut down any of its nuclear power plants and was still able to produce ~150 TWh of electricity from nuclear instead of ~65 TWh. Strangely enough, that difference is almost exactly how much electricity is generated by lignite now.
As Arsenio Hall used to say: things that make you go "hrmmm".
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Literally every single reliable energy source is, from a CO2 point of view, better than coal. Oil, nat gas, biomass, not to mention hydro or nuclear obviously.
Not only that, Germany is using brown coal which is more dirty and more inefficient than normal coal so you effectively need to dig up more land for less yield. It's absolutely bonkers.
But but Chernobyl and Fukushima! /s
People are most likely still to scared about nuclear power. Which is sad to be fair. Nuclear power is alot safer than people would like to think.
Anyone interested in learning more Kyle Hill has some nice videos about it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qEC-qDG0Bo&list=PLNg1m3Od-GgPabWaTS6tv1HomlUWvTPlr , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aUODXeAM-k )
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I mean if we'd allow fracking Germany has plenty of gas.
fuck fracking.
I don't disagree
Instead of allowing fracking in Germany, you buy LNG from fracked shale formations in the USA, and push all the externalities, air pollution, and groundwater contamination off onto American citizens. You are hypocrites. And Germany has destroyed 16,441 megawatts of clean nuclear electricity since 2011 and increased their carbon emissions equivalent to the entire carbon emissions of 37 African nations.
☢️ ftw
You know what is even more incredible?
Not having to redraw a map and resettle people due to corporate greed.
Arent people resetling themself, if they sell their houses?
People were forced to sell in order to avoid expropriation.
Ok, so it was old involuntary voluntary.... That sucks
Yeah, that's not how it works. They have to sell, else the lose the ground and get money for it against their wishes.
Nope, the government is disposessing a lot of those people.
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If necessary, yes. You don't have the option to say no. The police will drag you out of your house if you refuse.
No, some villages are cleared by eminent domain.
Gross oversimplification, most people willingly accept the offered money because it's usually far above market value. You get holdouts every once in a while but that's why eminent domain exists. If one person can hold up any project in the public interest, then we are all worse off for it.
Remember that eminent domain gets used much more often for things that are very obviously in the public's best interest, like infrastructure and public services (ex: railroads, bridges, sewers, even things like national parks...)
There are plenty cases where eminent domain had been used to lock people out. Berlin airport bulldozed a village because they thought they need the land. Once bulldozed they realized whoops we don’t actually, sorry for that.
Well, if they didn't need the land then the old owners will surely want to buy it back at market value?
Or maybe the story isn't quite as comically one sided as that. People were apparently very well compensated and I can't find any evidence that any village was demolished unnecessarily.
Well, if they didn't need the land then the old owners will surely want to buy it back at market value?
Do you think people will just sit there for years with their money and without a new home, waiting to eventually buy their old land back?
What makes you think they didn't get new homes?
That's what I'm asking you. Obviously they had to find new homes and hence spend the money they received, so now asking why they didn't buy their old land back is completely ridiculous: because they obviously had to move on and now don't have the money at hand anymore.
Welp:
they got new homes for free when they left their villages in 2004
they also received large amounts of cash in compensation
To make way for the new airport, two villages were removed. The 335 inhabitants of Diepensee received compensation and were offered new homes in Königs Wusterhausen, a move that was completed by late 2004.
Did you actually think that eminent domain means they just take your stuff and leave you with nothing?
Obviously you haven't read my previous comment because:
Can you provide a quote of said comment where you said that they received homes for free and got enough money to eventually buy back their old land?
Sorry about that, it was in a previous edit.
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It’s naive to think that every instance of damage to nature can be handwaved away with your point, as the climate crisis demonstrates.
That doesn't mean we should not strive towards modern lifestyle without doing damage to nature. Saying "It is what it is" got us here in the first place. And yes, we can have modern lifestyle without nature damage - but in the future.
A payout for what is basically expropriation.
As it should be. Eminent domain is scary and often maligned, but you don't want to live somewhere where anyone can hold the rest of society hostage for whatever reason they please.
Someone refusing to sell could just as easily block a solar farm, a windmill, a hospital, a bridge or whatever other big project you can think of.
Forcing a person who owns his land in the fourth generation to give up his farm to allow lignite mining for a private company. That’s zero contribution to any progress.
Is it though? The mine provides employment and generally makes the area and the country wealthier through their economic activity. Roads, railways and all kinds of other infrastructure are often built to support industry, they pay a lot in tax and usually compensate local governments for their ecological impact.
Things are not as black and white as they first appear.
It’s a company that mines resources to generate profit. Agriculture would provide the same benefits and would be much more sustainable. destroying a 800 year old village to replace it with a lake after mining is shortsighted.
I don't think you have any idea how little money there is in agriculture, not to mention all the ecological downsides. But at least we agree that mining does contribute and is beneficial in its own right.
I think we only agree that short term profits appear to enjoy priority over other considerations.
It's not basically expropriation, it is. And as much as I hate the coal lobby, it's ~~conditional~~ constitutional.
You can always decide to not sell your property to the company. But then you will be expropriated and receive much smaller compensation compared to the previous offer. that’s a nice way of ensuring people give up their land voluntarily.
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This is, and always will be, the dumbest “gotcha“ argument possible
lol, it's always this old comic
moron
You criticize society, yet you participate in it
Updoots to the left, I'm very smart
Correct. For such an educated country they really fucked up by phasing out nuclear energy
We have a decent chunk of the population who have almost religious beliefs about nuclear being bad. And our Greens are sadly just like that too, unlike Finnish Greens
Edit: Like LeafgreenOak has pointed out the Swedish Greens are also very anti-nuclear.
Are you serious? Swedish greens have been frothing about nuclear bad since the 80's. The party was created to stop nuclear power in Sweden.
My bad, only the Finnish greens! They used to be anti-nuclear aswell though.
Sweden and Germany are much alike. Hell bent on muslim immigration and destroying energy production/infrastructure/industry.
Reliable as in renewable energy, right? Right?
Or do you mean "reliable" for fossil fuels? Surely not right.
Name one reliable renewable energy that Germany can use
Tell me that you don't know what you're talking about, without actually telling me.
Why can't you just engage like a normal person?
Can you name one reliable renewable energy that Germany can use?
Don't avoid the question please
In July 2019, figures published by the Fraunhofer Institute for Solar Energy Systems (ISE) report that renewable energy is for the first time providing more electricity than coal and nuclear power combined in Germany. Solar, wind, biomass and hydroelectric power generates nearly half of the country's output. Times with negative prices increased as solar and wind power increased. Solar and wind power has low marginal cost, and other production sources with higher fuel costs become less competitive when demand and prices are low. During the COVID-19 pandemic in Germany, solar power in Germany occasionally produced 32 gigawatt (GW). Solar, together with wind and other renewables, accounted for 78% of German power at one point.
at one point.
"at one point"
I don't care how much energy was produced "at one point". It needs to be RELIABLE
Wind and solar energy just isn't viable in Germany. The wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine (enough). Nuclear is the only answer.
At least my initial response to you was on point.
If you don't have enough of something yet, but can get more of it (easily), then that should be your answer. But maybe it's also just too difficult for you to comprehend that energy production from renewable sources increases if you build more of it and make the whole process more efficiently. Little hint: the energy production from renewable energies was lower the further you go back in time. Crazy, I know.
At least my initial response to you was on point.
It wasn't. You're wrong and smug - the worst combination. You're insufferable.
And solar power in Germany faces fundamental problems. For obvious physical reasons – the sun always sets – there is absolutely no output from solar panels a lot of the time. In the case of Germany it is around 46% of the time. However, Germany can, on a sunny day, get a lot of its electricity demand from solar panels. On the occasional sunny day solar panel output can exceed half of total electricity demand. This is the source of the myth that Germany gets half of its electricity from solar panels.
You fell for the myth. Don't be smug when you fall for easily-disproven myths, please.
https://energycentral.com/c/ec/reality-check-germany-does-not-get-half-its-energy-solar-panels
If you don't have enough of something yet, but can get more of it (easily)
But it's not easy. It's actualy very very hard to build solar farms in Germany. Why are you saying it's easy?
https://www.euractiv.com/section/climate-environment/news/red-tape-and-reluctant-locals-cloud-germanys-solar-power-rush/
After a massive "solar revolution" in Germany, solar energy produces a whopping....4.5% of their energy. Wooow!
But maybe it's also just too difficult for you to comprehend that energy production from renewable sources increases if you build more of it
No, I can comprehend this. You don't seem to comprehend the fact that you can't build enough of it in Germany. Because the sun doesn't shine enough.
Little hint: you need lots of sun for solar energy to be viable. Germany does not have lots of sun.
Little hint: the energy production from renewable energies was lower the further you go back in time. Crazy, I know.
Obviously. Not sure what this has to do with anything?
reliable as in "when it's needed, where it's needed", which wind and solar cannot.
Dispatchable might be the word you were looking for.
And then you have a german (Nazi)-Party which said wind turbines are creating an ugly landscape.
FCK AFD
Coal will be phased out when there is no more coal in Germany. We all know in Europe, except germans citizens maybe, that the choice to abandon nuclear energy was driven by the knowledge that climate change will soon force Germany not to exploit this resource. So Germany chose not to use nuclear energy to let room for coal.
Considering the fact that this exploitation causes tens of thousands of death yearly in Poland, would it be incorrect to consider that this political decision and the genuine blindness of german citizens is in line with an old german tradition?
PS: I have no doubt that any country in this context would have done the same ( UK, France etc.)
Are you saying Germany chose to exploit coal resources to damage Poland?
Are you brain dead?
I said they exploited coal to save cash and without any form of consideration for the damage it causes.
You should visit thissite
Nah, you explicitly mention deaths in Poland and then slyly suggest that Germans made a political decision to cause those deaths. THEN you insinuated that Germans not only know about these deaths in Poland, but willingly turn a blind eye to them.
Another delusional Pole with an irrational hatred of Germany. What else is new.
Oh, you belong to those who are able to discern hidden conspiracy theories! So I just can admit that a german friend which is a leader of Germany told me that the aim of germans is to kill the polish by the gas emitted by coal combustion and those due to cabbage fermentation!
Phase out in 2030
DOUBT (X)
Fun fact, the 3 last nuclear German power plants are producing as much (low carbon) electricity as all the solar panels installed in Germany (~60GW, 250B€, 20 years of deployment). They are planed to be turned of soon.
This is just blatantly false. Stop lying.
https://www.smard.de/resource/blob/204718/c229d4f14fbf63e60f58e5e40f7926e6/bitte-loeschen-data.png
First half of 2021: Solar 10% VS Nuclear 12.72%
https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/DE
4GW of nuclear power still online VS 65 GW of solar panel deployed
Tell me where I am wrong ?
By the way https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/news/germany-to-almost-double-gas-firing-capacity/
The German grid regulator and Green-led ministry of economy and climate action aim to construct up to 21 GW worth of additional gas power plants to guarantee a stable and reliable grid, according to internal documents.
Ah your right sorry didn't read your comment carefully enough. Thought you were talking about power not energy.
It's great to see that the green government doesn't stick to principles but operates in the reality.
Those gas powerplants are essential to ensure we can keep on expanding renewables.
They destroy cities, churches and historical landmarks to destroy the area and dig out shit that will kill us all. There is almost no reporting of that. At all.
But let a group of desperate kids throw some soup against glass and suddenly all of germany NEEDS to talk about it. It's insane.
Oh damn it's a coal miner? That sucks. I always had some weird reverence for these machines and assumed they mines something important like metals.
Yes, it's damaging to nature. But we need some fossil fuel for the interim.
Maybe a little bit more foresight wouldn't have been that bad.
This has been going on for a hundred years, and redditors are acting like continuing it temporarily for another year will destroy the world.
Source?
Source for what? The phasing out or the damage to nature?
The phasing out. I’m confused by your wording that coal is being phased out until 2030. What’s the reasoning there? As opposed to phasing out out forever. It’s the opposite of carbon emissions: so-and-so country or corporation is going green with a goal to have emissions down by so-and-so date. Down by so-and-so date— not down until so-and-so date. You see what I’m saying?
the idea from the government is to gradually reduce the coal consumption until 2030 when it is supposed to be 0. The phasing out is the process it takes until 2030
The thing is coal is being phased out until 2030
Coal exports, and coal burning until 2030, OTOH...
Lignite isn't exported, it goes straight to a dedicated power plant. It has too little energy for the weight and volume to properly transport.
Yes, and lignite is less than half of it. https://euracoal.eu/info/country-profiles/germany/
Unless Germany stops coal production altogether, the majority (!) of German coal can still be exported, or end up in local steel mills. By the way, getting coal out of steel production is not likely at all. We need entire new material sciences to manufacture comparable materials at scale.
It you had really read the article you would know that Germany only Imports hard coal and the last mine for it was closed five years ago.
All non lignite power plants run in imported coal.
Tbf they are renatured often
Yeah but it still is a hit for biodiversity
Ok - now do lithium and cobalt.
There is currently an energy crisis in Europe.
In Germany the joint gov is part the green party.
They shut down nuclear power stations early.
No gas due to embargoes on Russia.
In Europe people die due to cold.
So coal is needed to do stop human death.
That ignores the heavy German dependence on Russian gas before the war. Germany was warned for a long time that they are putting all their eggs in one basket and Russia has them by the balls. For years the fiddle of the Russian government is our friend was played over and over. Sure nobody should freeze to death but I also don’t see why coal should be extracted for another 7 years.
Finding a replacement and building it will not be possible in that time period. It is unfortunate but what other option.
The green party certainly do not want more coal so I have to assume this is a last resort.
The excavation of lützerat was on hold until two ministers of the green party found a compromise: rwe is allowed to excavate lützerat so they phase out coal til 2030 instead of 2038.
Rwe argues that they suddenly need lützerat to keep the powerplants running during the coming time as germany ended all dependency on russian oil gas and coal.
Before the ukraine conflict the excavation was halted due to protest camps in lützerat, those have been or will be evacuated shortl.
Before the ukraine conflict it was estimated that lützerat excavation won‘t be needed to secure energy demand till 2038…
Die Grünen in NRW made a faustian pact withthr conservative pro coal CDU on statelevel, this only ever happened in one of the two major car states.
Another neat sideeffect of this unholy marriage: This likely will cost germany the legalisation of of marihuana, as the green party isn‘t coalition leader resulting in a likely majority for cdu in bundesrat, where new laws can be vetoed.
And by acting like a sockpuppet for the black party they by far outranked the spd when it comes to pulling an fdp
What's the damage to nature?
Temporarily, right now, yes it's tearing up a lot of the soil and surface plants. But how do you think nature works? That a few years from now it will still be disturbed soil and rock, or do you think after 2-3 years it will start to basically look like normal again?
Hard to say because climate change could screw that up with exceptional rain falls or heatwaves.
This is very likely to cause more problems in the future on top of the co2 emissions.
So this picture is truly representative of literal government forces protecting the interest of big business at the expense of humanity.
This really should be a wake up call to anyone who still believes in the promises (lies) of capitalism... but instead they will probably approve of the idea that this kind of practice is not only justified but spout some bullshit misunderstanding of the phrase "survival of the fittest" as if that makes what is happening perfectly normal and good.
Fuck these asshats
I mean, rolling blackouts are not in the common man's interest either. They don't really have a choice now that they phased out 16,441 megawatts of nuclear capacity since 2011.
Wtf are you on here repeating that same statistic like half a dozen times to random comments like mine?
Either you're a broken bot or a dumbass out here scanning for comments to bait into some bullshit narrative about /argument for no damn reason other than your apparent dislike for climate activists.
Get fixed bot or get a life.
Goodbye
Because I'd like people to know that destroying thousands of megawatts of clean electricity does indeed result in increased coal burning and the bulldozing of historic villages.
So, it's a matter of people not selling their houses?
It’s a matter of digging coal which will add to the climate change while while landscapes are destroyed and people having to sell their property or get evicted.
And what anout damage from Hydro/Wind?
Companies have used these phase-outs as an excuse to extract poor quality resources from the Earth as quickly as possible, in the most destructive ways possible.
I grew up in the Midwest and, from what I've been seeing, a lot of huge family farms are being sold to large companies for resource extraction. While driving to my parents' over Christmas, I noticed that the farmland I used to drive through was now a grassy field that was 100+ feet lower than the road. Essentially they scraped the top layer of the Earth off in an attempt to extract sand and gravel and threw a layer of dirt on top when they were done. It was truly shocking the level of destruction they inflicted on the landscape.
This is the result of a population who has completely lost the plot regarding nuclear energy...
It's not "those companies". It's agreed and planned together with the government to ensure power supply. Most of those villages have been bought years if not decades ago. Most if not all the people of the remaining few villages have agreed to sell their houses years ago.
This is not a justification, but it's not always "those bad companies"
You are right the government is just as bad allowing this
It's insane to me how desperate it made them
Fracking would be so much cleaner
until your ground water is all fucked up
Those companies should be targeted by the people
It's not just the companies, it's the Greens' fault for ruining nuclear power. And given they still heavily run on coal (cos renewables will never cover the needs), I highly doubt it's gonna be phased out by 2030.
Forgive my ignorance, but can the mining be done in a way that the area is safely inhabitable (albeit lower in elevation) once the desired metals or minerals are extracted?
Not really as the ground will be full of heavy metals / arsenic remnants , definitely not a great place to live
Europe definitely isn't phasing out coal anytime soon now with their governments' incessance to tank their economies on the US' behalf
coal is being phased out<
Because of the german green party, nuclear power plants were shut down in favor of coal and Russian oil
And they claim they "rehabilitate" the land thereafter.
I seen that up close.
A thin layer of top soil enough for anemic grass to grow. Looks doubly anemic once they stop fertilizing it and watering it.
We are burning our grandchildrens future,
John Prine wrote a song, Paradise, about his parent's home town being razed for a coal mine
If only there was a cheap carbon neutral and already developed source of energy the germans could've used to completely replace coal hmmm
Hundreds of years ago
Slavery was seen as we see having pets nowadays (i mean, seriously, did anyone realise they are slave level? Aka if owner is a kind and daring person, best life ever, otherwise....)
We see slavery as something bad. Including incidents of human zoo that existed
Hundreds of years from now, whatever will be, will be shocked to see how the public safety forces are used to protect company business instead of arresting them.....
I predict that of things continue in this direction, uninterrupted and affordable energy for anyone but the upper class is going to become a thing of the past. We'll tell our grandchildren stories by candle light about when everybody used to have electricity when we were kids.
Coal energy is getting phased out, but coal will still need to be harvested for a variety of other things.
Just a Reminder: The coal under Lützerath is evidently not needed and , if burned, would make Germany fail to reach it's Climate Goals all by itself
So they are digging it up ond throwing it away then?
Exporting to a country that doesn't care about climate change.
Germany has still some ways to go to really care about climate change
Like when they put a tax on solar panels, because it was hurting the coal and gas power plants?
Correct. The minister of economy Altmeier literally said 10 years ago that renewables are "growing too quickly". What the fuck.
Also they basically killed the wind turbines sector in 2017 when they made it mantatory that wind turbines had to be tendered in entire Germany. It starts 5o get better though, but there are still a lot of regulatories from the conservatives which have to be reformed or abolished
Germany loves its taxes. Just the tax on gasoline alone is insane. Imagune how cheaper driving would be without the fuel taxes. And just so they can push electric cars or hybrids more.. Pretty sure more people might buy electric if they could afford it, but wheb they already pay 1.85€ per liter just to get to work, well..
Taxes on gasoline were there long before EV's were a thing. And the tax on electricity is a higher percentage.
But all those people getting free electricity from the sun really cut into the tax income for the government.
Sure taxes were there before, but then came the CO2 Tax. Its bullshit and only there to push more for EVs
Ya, we don't need a habitable planet, right? Fuck the next generation. Vroom vroom.
Dude, no. I'm 25 years old, and I hate climate change. But I also need to get from a to b to c all the time, and don't have unlimited money. We don't have the necessary electrical wiring at home for me to install a charger or wallbox for an electric car and we barely have any public charging stations locally. The fuses in the garage blow just by turning on an electric heater, how are we supposed to charge a car with that? This way charging an electric car becomes massively impractical and outright impractical.
No, sorry, but everyone does what they can. My new car is a 1.5l ecoBoost and can deactivate 2 cylinders when needed, and has a start/stop automatic. I still need to get from a to b, and it can easily happen that I'll do 400km in a day, without breaks. Electric is simply impractical for me and my needs.
And pushing for EVs is stupid when the infrastructure isn't even fully there. Us that can't have an EV get absolutely financially fucked by an attempt to push ev, to the point that even just buying one becomes out of the question.
You wanna complain about me creating CO2? My hobby is driving a 60 year old diesel tractor for fun. THAT thing causes environmental damage, but its history
Oh, I'm sorry. I guess we'll all die so you don't have to upgrade your breaker panel.
Also, you shouldn't be driving 400km without breaks. But there's plenty of EV's on the market that can.
And if you want your gasoline or diesel to be taxed like electricity, fine. It's now €5 a liter.
You think life is easy, do you? Everything is a simple problem with a solution that you "just need to do".. no.
When I say a space heater will blow the fuse for the garage, don't you think that we would've fixed that if we could? Its not an easy problem, its because the garage isn't part of the house and is electrically connected to the same wiring that was meant to power only a washer and a dryer. We'd have to dig an entirely new cable THROUGH the houses base to the fuse box to lay a new power cable to give the garage its own breaker. Sure, I'll spend about 2k to modify the electrics of the house, on top of buying the electric car just for the sake of.. what?
And I didn't say I drive 400km in a single day without breaks, the car does. And an electric car can't reliable do 400km in a single trip, without breaks, if you add in that its cold outside, that you will take a friend or 3 with you, and you'll drive a lot on the autobahn. A gasoline car will also not do the 400km on one tank if I go above 150km/h, but at least fueling up will take me just 5 minutes. the electric car runs out of battery, that is what, 45 minutes of charging? And just because cars that can do 400 in a single trip are on the market does not mean I can fucking afford one.. Not even my current car was brand new, its 4 years old but a used car.
I don't want my fuel to be taxed like electricity. I want the state to stop essentially punishing people with CO2 tax that can't afford to go electric. What about the lone mother of 2 with the shitbox diesel car that can barely make ends meet each month, you think she deserves to pay a CO2 tax because she drives the diesel instead of an electric car? And what car do you think will survive longer, the battery of an electric car, or a low compression non-turbo diesel engine? Because I've seen what those diesels can do, and what little it takes to kill electric.
Stop pretending the world is like a game, its fucking not. If people can't afford it, they can't. And just because I THEORETICALLY could make it possible, does not mean I'm willing to accept the sacrifices I need to make when owning an electric car or a hybrid. I do what I can to save CO2 by cycling to work whenever I can, I bought a fuel efficient 1.5L ecoboost instead of an old beater turbodiesel (which would've been better for the long distance driving).
Ya, a beater diesel in Germany? You wouldn't be allowed to park in most big cities.
And yes, I think everyone deserves to pay for the pollution they cause. Let's go, €10 diesel. €50/kg meat.
And oh noes, you have to pull a cable all the way from your breaker box to your garage. That's just too much effort. Guess we'll just have half the country flood instead.
Breaking: Germany signs major coal export deal with Germany
Profit over people - the corporate motto.
Lignite is not exported, or just in really rare cases. It is just not economical to transport this kind of coal. The power plant is usually right next to the place lignite is mined.
And probably demand compensation for not being able to burn it
Seems like germany doesn't give a fuck at all either then
Oh so America then?
Africa, China, Eastern Europe, Asia
They burn it out of spite.
that's the German way right there.
they sell it to make my bonus bigger c:
They fight renewable energy everywhere in the world to keep demand high for coal. People need energy, not coal, but the alternatives are being supressed.
To make more profit.
[deleted]
It's not cheaper, it's needed, but the above comment is bullshit. It is needed. The plans and studies are about how it's not needed in 20years, but the plans for 2038 won't supply our infrastructure literally today.
They are a big part of an effort to exploit the worst case climate scenario where new reactors are delayed/sabotaged politically
No some rich fucks destroy nature to get a little bit richer.
Another reminder: Wherever you live, police is there only to protect company interest.
They're a gang for the rich.
Always have been and always will be.
Germany is just trying to survive the winter. Their energy grid is failing.
It is not?
What the fuck are you even talking about????
It's a long standing tradition in American media to deride the German power grid. Now this is joined by Russian propaganda. If stuff gets repeated often enough, people will start to believe it.
Wow. Even funnier since the "grid(s)" in the US also have many problems
Imagine just sitting in your basement making shit up
Bruh this ain't Frostpunk
You can reach the goal and sell it to someone else.
Is this a leak from Avatar 3?
Nah mate, it's from the planet that inspired the movie Avatar I and II
They do things there that can't be shown on film.
Oh we show it on film and people go, "Ahh imagine if that were really happening"
Andor season 2
It's funny that you say this and Avatar was compared to Ferngully when it came out because I'm pretty sure this guy is in there somewhere.
Ahh, ahh, ahh, toxic love! When I first saw Avatar I was like “Oh yeah, this is Ferngully for adults.”
Ferngully 2: Judgment Day.
Had to scroll some to find the Avatar reference, glad I found it!
This is not avatars aesthetics at all lol how is this upvoted
They literally had a machine like this churning away for unobtanium at the start of Avatar I.
fr? my bad g
Pic goes hard
This photo looks so futuristic dystopian, I love it. I understand the implications, but I love the composition and eeriness of the phot still
Agreed. Regardless of the implications, that is an incredible photo.
It’s an incredible shot BECAUSE of the implications.
Fair
r/aboringdystopia
The real dystopia in this post is the "former village"
It´s just the latest of a bunch of villages in the area being "resettled" because the energy corporation (RWE) wants to dig up more fossil fuels. This one villages dates back to 1135.
I remember when China did this to build dams. It was framed in the west as something that could only happen in an authoritarian state like China.....
There’s always been a lot of distraction and misdirection in how this country operates. It is one of the key components of American propaganda that has warped its citizens brains
And China had to do it for a variety of reasons that helped the Chinese people, to protect 15 million people from flooding and also provide many more much needed electricity. It wasn’t to sell dirty coal to foreign nations for profit. What Germany is doing is a million times worse than any western paranoid fantasy about “communism” in China.
Just looked up the region. An example I found particularly interesting: this is the church of St. Lamberthus, demolished to make way for the mining operation. But don't worry, a replacement was built. It is so ugly it almost looks like an insult to the former building.
Jesus christ. Fuck fossil fuels.
Tbh this happens when building dams for hydroelectric power, too. Imagine having to demolish your house while a scarily tall bridge overlooks the valley ominously like a memento mori. However, the dams then provide clean electricity, flood control, and either swimming or drinking water.
[deleted]
In most ways, dams are better than fossil fuels but worse than other renewables. But they are very reliable and can even use pumped storage to stabilize the grid.
In Immerath they destroyed a whole cathedral. Unfortunately the Christian Right has decided that burning coal and owning the libs is more important than preserving a cathedral or the planet.
IKR!!
They can’t do anything for it. They should just be part of the earth. Blame the capitalist pigs who will rape our planet for every last cent.
Good point. Fuck the capitalist Pigs
Good thing good ol' communist comrades were so environmentally savvy they never did major environmental catastrophe and always took well-being of their citizens first. I'm sorry guys, but greed is not tied to capitalism. As a person who lived in socialism and now in capitalism, I have to admit the water and air is much,much cleaner and safer now than it used to be.
implying any reasonable modern leftist actually wants soviet communism
I spit on Stalinists, they are not our comrades.
Excuse me, but " capitalists bad" approach is hardly reasonable . I get it just your emotional reaction, not official policy. Its just too big simplification. Our Earth is destroyed by people no matter if they live in free-market or communist system. Even Pre-Columbian Native Americans are believed to cause environmental catastrophes.
Fitting that a Pole has to remind us of that. Poland doesn't forget.
How can I forget when I see reminders of communism just outside my window - ugly, grey, mass-produced apartment blocks. And when it comes the environmental issues, I get triggered like fuck. I remember, as a kid, I was told not to swim in lakes or rivers because they were so polluted by heavy industry. Because nobody cared about clean water or air, because if anything was "everyone's property" it means it was nobody's property. I remember in the 90ties, when I was a kid, my dad showed me a crayfish in the lake and told me, if the water is clean enough for it to live, we can swim in the lake too. And that's because in this "evil capitalist times" finally people respects someone's rights, they care about their own and somebody else's property and life is better in general in almost every metric.
Thank you for taking the time to share your experience; greetings from Argentina.
Greetings from snowy Poland! 💗
They made our whole luxurious lifestyle possible, chill out
How do I read this image? Idk German and I can't work out from the colour coding
Why not name the corporation? It's RWE and they need to get as much negative public pressure as possible.
Not that it makes it any better, but a village dating from 1135 is nothing special here
Yeah exactly lol
I mean it is mainly the fault of politicians defending regional interests.
Thank God, Titz is safe
ye conservatives are all mad about how ugly wind farms are, and completely disregard that you can see holes in germany from space.
The Christian unions, our “Conservative” parties will, without a hint of irony, tell you that this lone windmill way off in the background is worse than anything else you see in the picture.
Hey, there are 2 windmills in that picture!
Exactly!
Yeah I didn't realize this machine is the reason the village is "former"
r/bossfight
r/AbsoluteUnits
r/megalophobia
r/interestingdystopiaatleast
[deleted]
Because all sorts of laws protecting old buildings, the habitats of people etc have been set aside to make room for the short term profit of an earth destroying industry.
A big civilization destroying machine protected by mindless robotcops isn't dystopian?
People tend to like having electricity. Just because they shut down the nukes in Germany doesn't mean you can prevent coal being mined. Solve policy problems on policy level, not operational.
It's been proven multiple times that the coal there isn't necessary for our energy needs. source in German
Huh, that’s not even remotely true, as much as I’d like it to be. https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-charts
Not coal in general but the coal in Lützerath specifically
/r/LeopardsAteMyFace
This is still much better than most alternatives. Large scale extraction is often overall the better choice environmentally. Each mining area (especially coal) causes a zone of ecological damage, but it is roughly logarithmic with the size of the mine.
Mining in underdeveloped regions causes horrible ecological damage since they extract it from scattered sites that mine in small quantities. Most places in the more developed areas use larger but fewer mines, reducing the polluted area.
Source: am a geology/earth sciences student
This one doesn't look boring at all
A boring machine dystopia
Idk if that’s even boring at this point. More just r/regulardystopia material
r/collapse
Accidentally Star Wars
r/accidentalstarwars
haha it's a thing? Thank you
More like art imitates life. Would not be surprised at all if the Andor people had seen pics like this one:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Surface_Mining_Hambach_200800806.jpg
"Mr. Dent, have you any idea how much damage this bulldozer would suffer, if I let it run over you"?
'No'
"None, absolutely none"
Yea, I think they got this headline backwards. Theyre protecting actuvists from falling off a cliff and getting ground to bits
Ironically, the clueless people falling to their own demise are not the activists
Like an alien machine destroying the earth , while their robots keep guard of the natives
Dystopia. +1!
But it's not Russian dystopia
I don’t think it’s a good idea to try and get into the way of this excavator.
The achilles heel of such an excavator is it's electrical cables providing it with power.
As an activist, you are a lot safer announcing that you are going to be in front of the excavator so they have to stop it, than sabotaging it.
Sabotage is more effective, lasts longer, and costs them more money.
It's worth the risk.
Your more likely to kill yourself attempting to mess with the high voltage power cables than you are to do anything that stops it from functioning.
Eh, follow the lead of the folks in NC. Just need to shoot a few holes in a high current transformer to shut things down...
Or so I hear
The fuck is NC
And fristly, guns are not as common in germany and secondly no one would be on the activists side and at that point it would be terrorism, whcih never fucking works except to make innocent suffer more than before already
If German police caught wind of that you'd be locked up faster than the Nazis they just nabbed.
You go do it if it’s worth the risk then lmao
I never suggested sabotaging anything.
You did tho
TM 31-210 Improvised Munitions Handbook by the US Army. Am I suggesting you commit crimes? No.
He didn't. Whatever cable's pull that thing I doubt you'll go through it enough to stop them and that's assuming you know where they are on the massive fucking thing
I did not.
You mentioned the achilles heel while the parent comment wasn't talking about that in any way
That Achilles heel is many times tougher than you think. That thing is built like a tank. Have you seen anything but heavy machinery stop a moving tank? What are you going to do to that thing? Lube a single gear up with your blood?
I have no clue what the point was of your message. That was super random lmfao..
Yes and?
That's why people were talking about you implying something about sabotage
They never suggested you did but your response makes it a little sus tbh
I am.
That's assuming they stop to notice the red stains you leave on the excavator. I doubt that thing is quiet nor does it stop on a dime
These actions work differently. It's not some random person spontaneously jumping in front of the machine but a collective. The company and police are informed in advance, there is a large group of visible people going near the machinery. As soon as people get too close the work has to stop for legal safety reasons. Sometimes the company announces a day off for technical reasons during the action as it would just be operating at a loss.
Usually they are so slow they more or less do stop on a dime.
The rather famous bagger 288 was able to achieve a top speed of 10m per minute.
So it's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoX3z-YUX7k
Only that the zamboni is over 10 times faster
Yeah but fucking with those will turn you into dust, like it would be hard to even find remnants of your body if those arc over.
Ok boys who's gonna go for it for humanity today?
I can't think of a better way to go out than fucking up a giant piece of machinery like this for a good cause.
Yeah indeed!
They move really really really slow.
It has to do with them digging into a mountain...
It isn't about the bagger, but the electricity powering it. Bagger 288 needs 16MW of power, the smaller ones obviously less and the power is provided externally, so they dont produce the power themselves.
So cutting that powercord is going to be quite a lightshow.
It’s cute that you thought it was electrified but it probably runs on diesel lol
I saw a documentary about this thing. It does run on electricity.
See for yourself: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagger_288
It uses as much electricity as a small town lmao.
Ah my mistake! I assume most of that stuff is run on diesel still.
It is way too big for that.
Not really no, ships with bunker oil engines have bigger power outputs. But it makes no sense logistically to equip this thing with a ship engine that weighs 100x the electrical power train and have this thing burn foul smelling bunker oil. That trucks have to drive there like a train.
Ships don't have to move on land.
That's why you use stealth to sneak up on it, knife it to death and steal its dog tags.
Not without announcing your presence haha. But to use it when there's people in the way - even when they are there illegally - is still murder.
And if you don't announce your presence, it's just an accident.
Yes, that is what I meant to say, I see it is a bit ambiguous1
To me it feels more like the police are protecting the protestors from the excavator.
The police is protecting the protestors.... from not getting to close to Bagger 288. They seem to not know its seething rage and urge for blood.
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People are wondering if we don't have to throw our bodies into this machine, capitalism, to seize it up and prevent it doing more damage
Always a good opportunity to repost the legendary Mario Savio speech
This has absolutely nothing to do with capitalism. If the state owned the means of production and decided it wanted to get that coal out of the ground, it would be the exact same.
Capitalism doesn't mean that the means of production habe to be owned by the state. If the whole company assets were owned by the workers, that would still be communism.
But these could also decide to demolish whole towns so yeah
If the whole company assets were owned by the workers, that would still be communism.
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...............................
Hm?
dont know if i'd call that communism!
Why not
my question would be “which workers” and if you said “all of them” then i would be in agreement. but sounds like you’re just describing a worker co-op or something. private property held by a specific group of workers is still capitalism. if you were to expand ownership to encompass literally everyone then that’s different (hence the what workers question)
Ah your right, I was thinking about socialism.
yeah thats closer
The state literally exists to secure private property. Capitalism wouldnt be possible without it.
You’re also paying no mind to what interests the state serves. There is a difference in the function of the state between different economic systems because different economic systems lend themselves to the dominance of different classes.
Whether directly or Indirectly, money decides politics. You don’t have to bribe politicians when you decide what stories are shown on the evening news.
The economic base (capitalism) establishes and reinforces the superstructure (education, religion, culture, media, law, etc.). Then the superstructure helps to maintain the base. Hence why in the US, for example, people go through school learning to idolize their slave holding, rapist, pedophile founding fathers, but to demonize the Vietcong for fighting for independence from colonial influence.
So the state never existed before the 18th century?
No, it simply served a different set of class interests. It still protected the exploitation of lower classes by the ruling class.
Seems like the only way to fix it is for the state to abolish private property. Maybe even personal property.
Just private property needs to be abolished. Personal property does not enable exploitation.
Property just leads to greed and inequality. People need to learn how to own nothing and be happy.
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You do control the state. That's what democracy is, you dumbass.
If the politburo decides to build a new coal mine, they won't send the police, they'll just crush you with a tank.
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Didn't know that r/europe is focusing mainly on US domestic situation.
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What a silly response, Europe is even worse -- the European Commission does not even pretend to be interested in the popular will
So indirect democracy is not s democracy? What a peculiar view.
Not that a peninsula occupied by a foreign military for 80 years could claim any free will on the first place
I'd also like to see a strong European Army, but it seems that American army was the only thing that was protecting us from Russian invasion, so I'm not going to complain.
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Looking at the commissioners calendars (which are publicly available) this number is not even remotely correct.
I also fail to see the connection between meetings with corporate representatives and lack of democracy. EU is not perfect, but without it individual countries would be truly f*cked when facing the corporations. At least we have some leverage over Google, Facebook etc. due to EU scale.
It reminds me of the people who screech "It's not a democracy, it's a republic"... like what do you think a republic is?
Nah bro... Tiananmen Square never happened...
We do have control, through democratic elections.
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Most stupid comment i have read this year
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That thing could eat my entire house without breaking a sweat.
We won't know for certain until someone tries.
FOR SCIENCE!
More pictures and updates: https://luetzerathlebt.info/ticker/
RIP that website
This is interesting but I don't know what I'm looking at. I'm an American and I translated the page. Is this a website which list everywhere you can check for information on protest? What is this website? :)
Yes, these are communication channels from the activists. The list on the right is English channels where you can follow them. For example the website here.
Thank you!
The spice must flow
DYSTOPIAN VIDEO GAME
The bagger 288 does not need protection from mere mortals
You sure they are not protecting the activists from the excavator? Seems pretty big enough to handle itself.
Class traitors in action
Show me on this doll where the mean capitalist touched you.
Cops guarding capital which is destroying our planet. Almost poetic.
Daily reminder that cops are there to protect Capital and the elite first and foremost. Anything else is secondary.
Sounds like you want to live without electricity, but that's one thing common in you, climate activists, you miss a brain.
Funny, how I, without a brain, have a job as a research assistant, and as a software developer for an institute developing software for medical researchers. - And as anyone else without a brain - just like myself - can tell you: we do not need coal to produce electricity, but I guess you must have skipped 2nd grade when they talked about all the other types of power plants which exist.
btw... I always wanted to ask people like you. How does shoe polish taste?
Of course, electricity just comes from thin air, you might call it grid. So coal is not necessary, let's just immediately shut the mines off. Smart, very smart idea. And you call yourself a research assistant.
Portugal did it, nothing changed. Most European countries are dependent on natural gas and renewables
Yeah, Germany tried their luck with natural gas.
Yeah, and if the "green" party didn't advocate to shut down nuclear they wouldn't be so fucked. You can't say the same about coal. It's not a necessary material for energy supply, it's time to stop using it
So coal is not necessary, let's just immediately shut the mines off.
Hell yea. Finally you get me. :)
Smart, very smart idea.
Thanks. That means a lot coming from you. ;) It must have been really tough for you to admit that you were wrong after your smug initial response.
That's what they're for, just doing their job
This is why I'm pro gun, I'm sure I'll be flamed 5 ways to sunday for this, but as long as there will be cops and soldiers showing up to protect stuff like this, exploitation will continue. They're not on our side and never will be.
People are pissed off that these corporations are enabled to continue wrecking the environment while their own government is using their Tax payer money to protect these criminals.
Despicable.
This extension of the open-pit coal mine was decided by a regional government of which the Greens are part, and let through by a national government of which the Greens are also part.
Who the hell are you supposed to vote for???
Die Linke has a far better voting record on the environment - but unfortunately they are absolute turdsandwishes when it comes to Ukraine.
Die Linke is busy with die Linke, always
They are also usually in the opposition. It's easy to not compromize your values if you never have to actually act. Their voting record would probably look different if they were part of the government in NRW.
Die Linke is just as incompetent as the AfD. They are the same party, just opposite of the political spectrum.
I am also not to fond of the succesor party to the SED getting any power
What else are the parties supposed to do? Buy from Russia or get massive blackouts?
The previous government fucked up the transition to renewable energies and we need a (short term) solution NOW not in 10 years or we will face blackouts.
There are several studies that show that the coal in Lützerath isn't needed, even government studies came to that conclusion.
Im by no means a supporter of coal. Wind and solar are the future.
But will that mean we will import more coal from Australia?
No! In Hambach and Garzweiler II is more coal then we could burn until 2030.
https://coaltransitions.org/publications/gasknappheit-auswirkungen-auf-die-auslastung-der-braunkohlekraftwerke-und-den-erhalt-von-lutzerath/
People were (are) similarly unhappy about the idea of expanding the Hambach coal mine.
But they wouldn't stop using Hambach. If they start digging up Lützerath there will be 3 instead of 2.
Damn if only they didn't closed every nuclear reactors and built "clean" coal powerplant to replace it. If only they didn't relied exclusively on one big gas supplier that hate the EU and is the reason they are in the bigest millitary alliance in the world.
That's not how the "Green" parties are supposed to work, they are supposed to protect the ecosystem and earth not remove everything on it and create a danger for life in general.
This project wasn't made for the energy crisis, it was planned a long time ago, stop finding excuses.
Did you even read what they said? The greens and the SPD had a plan 20 years ago: Buy russian gas for a while while massively extending renewable energy sources. The conservatives destroyed that plan by doing nothing, no new energy sources. Also, it was them who finalized the shutdown of nuclear energy. Not the greens
As I said it wasn't the green party that decided that, it was the previous government.
We now have to live with the mistakes of the last government. Or do you suggest to throw like 20-30 percent of energy production out of the window? We have to keep it while we build up the renewable energy sources. But thats not done in a day. So we have to keep coal for the transition.
Green parties also need to be realistic and work with what they have.
But yes I agree that we should have ditched coal before nuclear. But that was not the decision of the green party. It was decided under the CDU lead government.
The CDU was pleasing the Greens by closing every nuclear power plants in Germany, idk why you act like they didn't heavly influence Merkel's party during her 16 years in power.
They are the one creating the fear around a Tchernobyl 2.0 in Germany. The green parties of most of EU states are anti-nuclear even tho their base is more open on the question.
Why would the CDU please a opposition party? Also nuclear power is way more expensive than a lot of people want to acknowledge. There is sill no place where we will put all the nuclear waste. That's one reason why the government wanted to get rid of nuclear power.
A lot of uranium is coming from Russia. Not every country has former Colonies that they can Uranium from for cheap.
During the summer over a third of French nuclear reactor were not running because they were either in maintenance because of serious corrosion problems or because the water in the rivers was getting to hot. And France was importing energy from Germany.
Nuclear waste isn’t a real problem, that is coal industry propaganda.
Sure then. Until you plan to store your waste close to the border of another country. Or nearby where people live. The fears might be irrational, but you won't get them out of people's heads.
Let me state it as clear as it gets: Nuclear energy in Germany is dead. Dead, did you hear? It won't come back, that ship has sailed a long time ago. Building new NPPs would take such a long time in which you could simply heavily invest into renewables, a better high volatage power network across Europe and storage solutionsw
Poland and France are gonna keep building nuclear plants, and Germany is gonna keep importing nuclear power.
What renewables is Germany going to build? There's not much coastline for offshore wind and there's barely any sunshine in winter.
Let me state it as clear as it gets: Nuclear energy in Germany is dead. Dead, did you hear? It won't come back, that ship has sailed a long time ago.
Nope. But I understand that, faced with your goal being snatched from the jaws of achievement, you'd resort to plugging your ears and saying lalalala I can't hear you.
What people want and what the realpolitics does is a big difference. It just doesn't make sense to build new NPPs anymore because it takes at least a decade until they're finished. Complete nonsense.
But no point in arguing with nutjobs like you
Sure then you can tell me where we should store it for the next million years?
Ideally we would use it to generate more energy in breeder reactors rather than letting it go to waste.
As for storing it, just dig a deep hole hole in the ground. Into bedrock, below the aquifer level. Vitrify the waste so that it can't leak.
WI they take nuclear waste from other countries?
And does it has enough space to accommodate all nuclear waste of the EU?
No, I wasn't clear enough. I mean you build a deep geological repository like that. But there are cross-EU plans for common spent fuel facilities.
Why would the CDU please a opposition party?
Idk it's really opposition when they do a coalition in 2016, or we don't have the same definition ?
A lot of uranium is coming from Russia. Not every country has former Colonies that they can Uranium from for cheap.
Not true Nigeria <25%, Kazakstan <24%, Russia<20% the rest is Australia and Canada of EU import on uranium
For France import we are not importing from Russia but Canada and Uzbekistan instead. Source in french. We can't argue that Kazakstan and Uzbekistan have strong links with Russia but we don't have proof that it's their uranium rebranded.
During the summer over a third of French nuclear reactor were not running because they were either in maintenance because of serious corrosion problems or because the water in the rivers was getting to hot.
Like every summer since the exploitation of nuclear powerplants, we had more maintenances because they were delayed due to COVID or the strikes. It wasn't serious some corrosion issues, it was a the same issue on different reactor because they were built at the same period. It's a known issue, it's like going to the dentist every year to remove dental calculus.
We reduced our electricity consumption and the relativly hot weather is also helping us.
And France was importing energy from Germany.
That's called the European power grid we were selling and byuing at the same time from/to other countries, and I think Germany was buying our cheap nuclear power a lot more during the last 20 years.
Firstly, every party that is not in the government is opposition. That's how parliamentarism works.
Secondly, there has never been a coalition between CDU and Greens on a federal level.
And thirdly, when the Greens phased out nuclear in the early 2000s, they had a detailed plan on how to replace it with renewables. Then the CDU came to power and cancelled everything and then phased out nuclear again after Fukushima, but they didn't do it responsibly like the Greens. They half-assed it and relied on coal while actively sabotaging renewables, killing tens of thousands of jobs in solar and wind alone.
And now the Greens get the blame, because they were the first to want to phase out nuclear and they recently got into the government again, after 16 years? Give me a break.
I think it was one of the most genius moves by Angela Merkel ever. I mean this unironically. On the one hand, she "pleased" the Greens by abolishing nuclear power, making her get votes from the Greens. Who needs the Greens when Merkel is greener than them?
Second of all, in every case, she (or anyone else) can just blame the Greens. Because it was them who wanted it, right? Right? And seems like that brainwashing has worked greatly on Reddit when people blame a party which hasn't been in government for 16 years and was pretty small in the Bundestag 10 years ago. CDU had 32% of votes, Greens like 9%?
killing tens of thousands
oh my goodness!
of jobs
oh ok
Not ok, people that go without jobs and don't find new work are easy prey for extremism.
These jobs were also important for a quick expassion of renewable energies
oh, just making a joke, because when you read it it sounds horrific. not saying its not bad. "killing tens of thousands" is pretty rough, until you add "of jobs" lol
It’s not like the opposition is a club you’re stuck in. You can still vote how you wish on certain things. Greens are antinuclear and that doesn’t change if they’re in the opposition to anyone.
You're telling me Green didn't agree with the nuclear power plant closing ?
They did agree with them, under the condition that renewables, housing and the energy grid would see huge improvements in the upcoming years, which then didn't happen thanks to the CDU and SPD.
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How the fuck could the greens have predicted that the CDU and SPD would ignore their own laws?
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What?
I'll agree to shutting down wheat production worldwide on the condition that world hunger be solved in the upcoming years!
This is what this sounds like.
Sure, let's pretend there haven't been numerous papers from experts like the Fraunhofer Institut at the time, which clearly outlined that, if taken seriously, 100% renewables is no problem for Germany in the foreseeable future and that nuclear power plants can indeed be safely shut down in the given time frames.
With massive amounts of battery storage and biomass burning I guess. Not very realistic/sustainable methinks.
With the slight difference that the plan was detailed and perfectly archivable, not some phoney promise. Then came the next government and tossed it out.
Wasn't it supposed to be biomass based? Not really sustainable in the short term, it's still pumping huge amounts of carbon in the atmosphere (way more than coal per unit of energy actually!). Biomass burning can certainly be sustainable once true net zero is achieved, but in the current crisis it kinda looks like shooting ourselves in the foot.
When you want to look what went wrong in the last 16 years, look at how they treated renewable energies. Very often people from the CDU, like Altmeier, the minister of economy, has said that renewables are "growing too quickly". When I heard that 10 years ago I couldn't believe what I heard. Renewables growing too quickly? Isn't that a good thing? The CDU actively suppressed the extension of renewables and basically killed an entire sector in Germany.
Look at this map. Building of wind plants basically stopped in 2017 because the government made the rules more and more complicated and unnecessary
Well, kinda playing devil's advicate here, but it is entirely possible for a grid to have too many wind and solar plants. Their production is not programmable at all, all the while the grid needs to match production and consumption minute by minute. These adjustments become progressively more difficult (or even impossible) the higher share of wind&solar is as part of the grid.
Renewables are way better programmable than nuclear power plants. You can't control nuclear power plants quickly enough. That's why renewables work greatly together with gas power plants because you can quickly regulate those.
Renewables work horrbly together with NPPs because you have to shut down the renewables when you get too much of them because you can't control NPPs that well. As a result the price for the energy mix gets unnecessarily dominated by nuclear energy when renewables rare cheaper
So you admit decarbonization with just renewables is impossible...
That never was my talking point but okay. I was talking about how much you can control renewables compared to NPPs and stuff
Replacing a low carbon stable source with something you'll never fully decarbonize with is a bad thing in my book. And no, you can't claim renewables are programmable because gas plants follow the load. That applies to NPPs+gas plants as well, with the added benefit that you actually can control how much a NPP outputs on a given day.
The greens didn't have a coalition with the CDU in 2016 on the federal level.
Russian influence also looms over many aspects of nuclear power generation: Russia dominates the supply of nuclear fuel, the enrichment of uranium, and the building of nuclear power plants in other countries
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63245112
It doesn't say anything about France buying from Russia, it say Russia built and sell Nuclear power plant and uranium to Europe which i didn't argue with.
Edit: You clearly don't read what i say idk why i bother.
What I said is that Russia also has power over nuclear power not just gas and oil. Just because it does not impact France currency doesn't mean that it won't affect other countries.
There is only a limited supply of uranium each year. If you buy some of that it's an increase in demand meaning that Russia will sell more or get higher prices.
Switching to nuclear won't mean that Russia won't profit of that.
Also building nuclear power plants takes years. We currently don't have that time.
It would of course been better if Germany would have phased out coal first but we can't change what already happened. We now have to switch to renewable as fast as we can.
You were talking about France usage of nuclear. I tell you there is other countries selling uranium and we can avoid Russia.
Can we prevent Russia from selling uranium to other countries ? No.
Can we force them to switch clients and reduce their power over EU and Europe? Yes.
We have democratic states that sell uranium which is the cheapest energy avaliable, It takes time and is expensive on the short terms but on the long run it's less expensive and better.
You can't say it's Russia's fault that you need coal because you closed your nuclear powerplants and they sell you oil, it was Russia plan all along and you fell right into it because it was the easiest way. You had more than 20 years to build nuclear powerplant and get your uranium from a other country.
We now have to switch to renewable as fast as we can.
You have until 2035 since you signed the Paris climate accord to reduce you coal consomption. And i'm sure you will be happy do get heated by our power plants when the renewable are not enought, and we will love your renewable in the summer when the rivers will be dry.
Not every country has former Colonies that they can Uranium from for cheap
Uranium is cheap and you can get it from multiple reliable suppliers like Australia or Canada.
And now? It was still the CDU who did it. Not the greens. The greens haven't been in power for 16 years. Go find a stronger argument, this ain't it. Tschernobyl was a justified fear. And yes they are anti nuclear. But this is only hardly related now.
Did you look at France? Germany with their bad bad power generated by gas has to *supply* France with energy now. France currently imports more power from Germany than it exports. Because 50% of France NPPs are toast right now. Also I live near Tihange. Hope that reactor gets shut down for good eventually
Keep reading this tread i awnser everything you just said.
Good luck with replacing your nuclear power plants before they fall apart.
Thank you! <3
Good luck replacing your coal powerplant before 2035 !! You signed the climate accord of Paris after all, it will be a shame if you don't respect it!
At least they have a plan.
Nuclear is much more expensive than renewables. It is also more dangerous, because humans are fallible. Nuclear power stations take forever to build. And they produce a ton of nuclear waste (don't get me started on the cute glass pellets, those are only one type).
There's always a nuclear shill in comments like this. Who pays you? EDF?
Tell me you don't know how renewable power work without telling you don't know how it works.
You can't use 100% of wind or solar power since it's not a stable source of power, some day you will have too much some other not enought you need to mixed it.
It is also more dangerous, because humans are fallible.
False, it's as dangerous as every other powerplants, it's not the 80's anymore we have safeguard to prevent meltdowns.
And they produce a ton of nuclear waste.
Also false, while it do produce nuclear waste, coal also produce waste and lignite radiation as well as destroying a large part of the land.
Yes you can rehabilitate lignite mined land but it's not a 100% rehablitation and there is still a big part of the land that have been lost/ made uselless.
Are you paid by Mining lobbies like CDU ?
It is also more dangerous, because humans are fallible
You know statistics are a thing right? This is literally just statistically incorrect.
If you're against nuclear power, you're not an environmentalist. It's gatekeeping, but it's true. In a fight against the existential threat to humanity that fossil fuels present, opposing one of the main fossil-fuel-free power sources makes you complicit.
I thought the entire reason one would vote for a party like the Greens is because you don't want bullshit like this anymore. Usually they're the "Things can be different" party, not the "Well we're gonna have to compromise here, and there, and..."
Poland is running a good 80% coal when it comes to our energy production. Highest in Europe. Our main opposition, center-right, still heavily pushes for closing the mines. The socialdemocrats are no different.
Comparatively Germany being both so little reliant on coal, with over 50% of energy comming from renewables, allowing another mine to start operating while having a center-left government is ridiculous.
The greens can't change things over night.
Yes I agree they should not open a new mine. I guess they didn't plan the mine yesterday. The process was probably in the works for years.
I'm not asking them to close all the mines overnight, but not literally expanding them seems like a fair baseline.
I do agree with you, we should have switched to green energy waaay sooner, our government simply slept on it too long. Imagine what we would get if EVERY governmental building in the country had solar panels, that would be a ton nor energy. We also need a solution NOW, it dies nit matter who fucked up or when, we need a solution to survive now without stabbing ukraine in the back by buying russian oil or gas.
Honestly, the LNG terminal prove that we as a country can speed up building plans if needed. I'd say we have to build more wind and solar NOW, not encourage the people the next 10 years to do so.
If only the government had listened to warnings about relying on Russia for energy. Nope decided to ignore it because trump said it.
The governments that "ignored Trump" never had the Greens in them.
Maybe blackouts are what we deserve.
Sure... poor people deserve to suffer from decisions that politicians made...
The population wanted more renewable energy and the government fucked it up.
are you arguing that the war should be prolonged so you're not inconvenienced? blackouts are ok if it means russia dies faster.
Wtf are you talking about? Take your strawman somewhere else.
Germany has enough gas to come though the winter and doesn't buy from Russia anymore.
Also it's not about inconvenience but also to prevent people freezing to death and the economy collapseing.
Russia won't die faster if we don't use coal.
It's definitely in Ukraines interest that Germanys economy doesn't collapse. Because that would mean less support for Ukraine. We need to prevent economic collapse not only for ourselves but also because the German economy is integral to the economy of the European union.
With out that we won't be able to provide additional help to Ukraine. A collapseing economy would also help parties who are Putins bootlickers.
you're the one that presented it as a binary choice.
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I'm going to guess that "the Greens" were also part of shutting down those as well...
The reason
No we do. Laufzeitverlängerung is often discussed. But apparently we want a north sea beach in Köln more than climate change goals.
What else were the greens supposed to do now?
The dragged out nuclear exit was decided by the CDU more than a decade ago, which ruled Germany exclusively for that time and internationally stalled the expansion of renewables, while simultaneously increasing our reliance on Russia as an supplier of gas (against the explicit warnings from the Green Party).
The greens have (partially) inherited this mess and now the choice is either to prolong the use of coal for a certain amount of time, risk blackouts due to limited energy production or a gas shortage which either leaves our industry in shambles or our homes freezing. A situation further amplified by the fact that we have to simultaneously export significant amounts of energy to neighboring france due to the country’s reliance on ailing nuclear reactors.
Decisions can be reversed, and I think it's fair to say that the greens are the most anti-nuclear party on the land
Decisions can be reversed
You mean the decision to shut down nuclear? That has been reversed twice already. The current incarnation is nicknamed the "exit from the exit from the exit from nuclear power".
Twice?
Anyway the point was judging greens and activists such as those protesting these days.
France has been exporting electricity again since mid-December as the worst of the corrosion crisis has passed.
I don't want to make this into yet another nuclear debate, there's well enough of that happening elsewhere, so I'll ask something else : what is supposed to be worse next year than last? LNG capacity is increasing, both import and export from the USA, French electricity seems back to a higher level - while I perfectly see why you might have to continue using coal, I don't see why you'd have to expand it - if we didn't miss it this year, why would we miss it next year?
Lets not pretend the greens arent responsible for the irrational fearmongering agaisnt nuclear.
France has been exporting electricity again since mid-December as the worst of the corrosion crisis has passed.
I don't want to make this into yet another nuclear debate, there's well enough of that happening elsewhere, so I'll ask something else : what is supposed to be worse next year than last? LNG capacity is increasing, both import and export from the USA, French electricity seems back to a higher level - while I perfectly see why you might have to continue using coal, I don't see why you'd have to expand it - if we didn't miss it this year, why would we miss it next year?
You dont't think it has anything to do with the European energy crisis?
In real politics sometimes you have to make unpalatable compromises. That's just sausage, baby.
Vote more greens. Give 'em more power.
Preferably not parties compromised by Russia
The ppl who don’t try blocking “problematic” nuclear energy in favor of coal maybe? Like if they gave an actual fuck about the environment we would be using nuclear plants instead of coal or ReNeWaBlEs
That's the problem, there is in Germany (and Switzerland for that matter) no pro-nuclear party which I actually trust on climate.
depressingly true.. But I guess politics in a democracy pretty much mirror the people’s opinion on things like that.. so even if there were a fitting party I’d doubt they would have a lot of influence
The Greens are purely an anti nuclear party, nothing more.
Basically a single issue party that besides that has absolutely nothing to do with Climate Change
Clowns reply. If the Greens were more extreme now with their positions everyone would cry now. Do you prefer if we continue to buy russian gas instead or what?
The Greens have been very pragmatical since the war started. The green politicians are one of the most popular ones now, especially Baerbock and Habeck. They didn't left their goals (fully reneable energy and no co2 eventually), but they realized you have to be pragmatic now
I do think this move is a way to show the typical Otto in the suburbs how normal and electable the Greens are now, to pave the way for a Chancellor Habaerbeck, but a/ that's cynical politics and I'm allowed to feel betrayed when people betray me and b/ couldn't they have done the planet a favour and done that U-turn on nuclear instead...
Can you say that again but in comprehensible English?
It's as if voting does nothing?! It's like the system is somehow rigged? What?!
This surely a scene from a science fiction movie and not any current reality on this planet.
Surely. Copium
And I’m supposed to respect the police because of what exactly
You don't. 1312
You sure the cops don't protect the protestors from that helluva machine?
The fact that germany is expanding coal mines and shutting down nuclear power plants is disgraceful
Honestly with it being that big, are they protecting the excavator or the activists.
The big shame of coal in the middle of Europe. So much for climate change
Yep ..
Things like this have been going on for a long time: https://youtu.be/f2keQVXn36M
Took away our family town...
Police are like: "Are we the baddies?"
Yes ..
This Bagger is a dragon that consumes our land.
So dystopian.
It is a disgrace and an inconceivable scandal that we are still digging these climate killers out of the ground even with a Green government!
"Green" gov.
Links = SPD Grün = Die Grünen Versifft = FDP
I came across that region last week, it’s saddening to see how much of the land is eaten up. I have seen some mines, but never such a big open mine. The Kerpen kart track is right next to it, you know, where the Schumachers and Vettel grew up. Great track, but it’s future still undecided.
Not sure if this is the same place, but remember reading a couple years ago about Germany razing a 500-year old village to make way for a coal mine. There's nothing in the US that old (except remains of prehistoric native dwellings and burial sites); it's a little disappointing to witness this when there were plenty of alternatives.
Fuck Armin Laschet.
protectors of hipocrysy
And to think that it's illegal to insult the police in Germany... You couldn't even legally call them cunts for this!
Technically it's not illegal so specifically insult the police, insulting anyone no matter who they are is though
I know, but it just seems wild to me that speech against the government can be punished by the very officials being criticized if they feel like going on a power trip. You guys get a lot of things right over there, but imo political speech protections are not one of them.
Is that a Metal Slug boss?
Fucking pigs.
One of them is using his respirator, and well he should because that dust is bad.
The other 2 don't seem too, so I suspect their superiors think they're disposable and didn't bother telling them about the dangers they're exposed to.
Germany gonna Germany I suppose. Couldn't imagine willingly signing up like one of those guys
Fun thing: The German government has the option of disownment if certain circumstances are given.
The government refused to use this against horrible landlord companies and speculators who bought entire apartment buildings to let them rot and rebuild despite the high need of living space. Gov refused because "it's a communistic thing if government would use disownment like that"
However, excavation for a dieing ressource is fine. Or building another autobahn. But not for easing a burning issue fueled by companies and the very wealthy assha.... Erm.... People
This goes beyond Orwellian, this is Tolkien-esque.
That’s a great photo
Cause police don’t protect people. They protect private property, and the politicians who engorge their massive budgets and pensions.
For a second I thought that was Star Wars concept art
Oi germany, tell us again how smart you were by ditching nuclear power in favor of fucking LIGNITE
In favour of renewables. The most ridiculous part is that this mine and the adjacent power plant aren't even necessary anymore.
Ah yes the famous german renewables. The same renewables that make germany produce five times the CO2 France produces per KWh?
And only cost them the equivalent of a space colony.
Seriously, five ISSes they could have built.
ahh yes let’s just throw away progress because cost.
oh wait from croatia so yeah do exactly that.
What progress? Germany is one of the biggest co2 polluters in absolute numbers and per capita in Europe. And that's after they spent more than everybody else.
Croatia has rather clean energy.
do you understand what progress means?
is it better than before?
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-greenhouse-gas-emissions-and-climate-targets
I mean i’m not judging per se, i’m throwing stones from the biggest and most fragile glass house, america. Where renewables only just beat out coal and we are gas crazy.
Building out the 45% renewables they have was cheaper per MW than building and subsidizing NPPs would've been, and renewables are only getting cheaper. Just look at France, nuclear powerhouse of Europe, pouring around $14B and 17 years of build time into their latest 1650MW NPP. That's around 1 year and $850m per 100MW.
100MW of off-shore wind seem to cost around $130m to install. You could apparently build around 10.7GW of off-shore wind capacity for just the building cost of 1.65GW of NPP (not to mention the insane cost of constant maintenance, decommissioning, fuel cycle etc), and it wouldn't take you 17 years to install the turbines either.
Seriously, forget about the environmental aspects, new NPPs just make no economical sense nowadays.
I mean Germany still has one the highest percentage of renewables of the world, exluding countries who can easily do it with hydro.
We absolutly should have kept our nuclear plants going and do everything to not close the last ones, but no other country got so far as Germany regarding renewables
France? Lol…. Germany is literally one of the worst of developed nations when it comes to renewables.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_renewable_electricity_production
Germany: 46.2% (2019)
France: 17.5% (2016)
Which is the ultimate demonstration that if you care about the climate, Germany got it completely wrong.
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It's completely wrong to do that without a low-carbon backup. because otherwise you'll lower emissions, but stay at a high-ish level, forever, thus fucking up the climate.
Countries unafraid of nuclear power? They should build renewables like crazy too.
Its absolutley the right way to build renewables. The whole world is doing it. Its just wrong to turn off coal before nuclear.
Edit: nuclear before coal
Which is basically impossible, and why the Greens were so keen to doing it that way.
You're never going as low as France in emissions. Not in 40 years. Perhaps not ever.
Well let’s see. We aim to become carbon neutral in 2045.
Let’s see how long you can keep your old reactors going. I hoping for the best but they won’t run forever
Reactors can run for a century. At least.
Rebuilding your energy infrastructure every 20y is not too clever either...
I hope you are right but looking at the current problems your plants have, I imagine it will only get worse.
I don't think you understand how repairs work.
Also, I'm not French.
Uh sorry I don’t know why I assumed that.
But yeah, reparations tend to be needed more the older something gets. That how it works.
Not really. More and more bugs, failure paths, etc. get understood and fixed, and provisioned for.
French powerplants are vastly safer than when they started (and they started very safe indeed).
I think you meant the other way around?
Uh yes of course.
I hope so
Non-hydro renewables make coal or gas necessary. Since there is a shortage of gas, coal is very necessary in Germany.
Is France still reliant on electricity imports from Germany, or did they fix their nuclear plants yet?
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A simple co2 comparison paints a wrong picture. Again and again. If you export manufacturing and import manufactured things your country’s co2 output is indeed low.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-co2-embedded-in-trade
https://i.imgur.com/uWZ9OlU.jpg
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And that’s wrong and misleading.
It is not enough to look at these countries in terms of the amount of electricity they produce and the resulting co2 emissions. If France would produce as many goods as Germany instead of importing them, France would need more energy and therefore emit more co2. Instead, France imports and consumes more goods, which leads to more co2 emissions in the producing countries. France is only in a good position as long as this co2 consumption is not included.
This is as if I would brag that my kitchen consumes so little electricity because I run my 40 year old electric stove and refrigerator on electricity. But my stove and refrigerator only use little electricity because I always order food. While in the restaurant, which cooks me the food and delivers, still a coal-powered stove, next to gas, electric and induction runs, because you have to cook so much food for all the deliveries.
Are you fucking retarded?! The unit of measurement they spoke of is gram of Co2 per kWh of Electricity produced. It measures how clean energy production is in a country and has nothing to do with what the country produces, consumes, imports or exports! You writing long winding explanations about your stove and restaurants don't change that fact. Similar to how travel distance is (largely) irrelevant when talking about fuel consumption PER 100 kilometers driven of two different cars (assuming one car doesn't drive an absurdly short distance compared to the other).
Numbnuts who lack the brain cells to understand the most basic things, yet are confident enough to correct someone else while not even understanding the other person's terminology - this is really contributing the decay of society!
Are you fucking retarded?! The unit of measurement they spoke of is gram of Co2 per kWh of Electricity produced. It measures how clean energy production is in a country and has nothing to do with what the country produces, consumes, imports or exports!
I am clearly writing about how much co2 a country emits and why looking at Co2 per kWh of Electricity produced is misleading. If Germany decides not to produce anything itself, but only to import all goods from abroad, the energy from renewable sources would be sufficient and Germany would emit 0 g CO2 per kilowatt hour. Maybe you get it now.
You writing long winding explanations about your stove and restaurants don’t change that fact.
It’s an analogy. An analogy is meant to explain a concept. I like to use it when I assume that the concept will not be understood otherwise. You just proved that wonderfully.
Similar to how travel distance is (largely) irrelevant when talking about fuel consumption PER 100 kilometers driven of two different cars (assuming one car doesn’t drive an absurdly short distance compared to the other).
That is really a very good analogy! Maybe you realize yourself that you are not comparing two cars of the same class? But a small van with a truck. Only retards would look at the gasoline consumption (CO2) without reference to the performance (trade).
Numbnuts who lack the brain cells to understand the most basic things, yet are confident enough to correct someone else while not even understanding the other person’s terminology - this is really contributing the decay of society!
You seem to be a prime specimen and perfectly fitting example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Rarely have I seen so much cognitive distortion in the self-image of an obviously incompetent person who so massively overestimates his own knowledge and ability. Do you know that this tendency is based on the inability to judge oneself objectively by means of metacognition? You can insult only yourself.
You are fucking retarded, I knew it. Have fun chief wiggum!
Thank you for the energy export. Short question though: Were does the uranium come from? :/
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Thank you! Last time I read something about this topic frances depence on russsia (especially Rosatom technology) was argued to be a major reason why the russian nuclear sector has not yet been sanctioned.
Do you have peer reviewed studies about uranium mining its co2 and ecological impact?
That only gets you so far if you don't have enough power
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Not necessarily, there could be corruption going on whereby exporting is more profitable than providing power to your own country, lord know that shit was happening (might still be happening) in my backwards ass eastern european country
I know you are just using populist narrative, but the maintenance schedule will be back to normal in march and by then nuclear output will be back to normal.
What the fuck? The entire winter. Now that's a reliable electricity source.
Bevause maintenance was delayed due to covid and investment was cut 20 years ago. All political reasons, nothing to do with the energy source.
Imagine if we stop investing in renewables and in 20 years we get stoppages because they are on end of life. Is it the fault of renewables or the political decisions?
The 2022 French NPP outage that lasted most of the year was not actually caused by regular maintenance being backed up due to a 2 week lockdown 3 years ago. Why would you imply that?
It was caused by their fleet being so old that they found stress fractures and had to check & repair the majority of the plants. Those plants aren't getting younger, this will only happen more often. They're also not getting replaced, and not because the France are irrationally anti-nuclear (lmfao) but because unlike NPPs, renewable & CCGTs aren't ludicrously expensive and don't take decades to build. Why pour endless money and precious time into EPRs when you can just plop down wind & PV for a fraction of the price and start saving CO2 immediately, instead of sometime in the late 2030s.
are you serious?
Troll?
Irony. This basically means that France lacks half the heating it needs.
It was for 40 years. I which Germany could say the same about renewables instead of digging lignite like the bad guy of a children's book.
..until the next drought hits France and the reactors can't be cooled. Or is that the "normal" you are referencing too?
4 reactors are limited by cooling water. The french should really build towers for them because the droughts will become more frequent most likely.. but it isn't exactly a major issue for the grid as a whole
Most of the reactors are down because lack off maintainance, thanks to the same renewable agenda causing your country to have one of the most dirtiest grid per kWh in Europe. They've exported the most of any country in europe the last years and will continue to do that again once that is fixed.
And who did that renewable agenda if I might ask?
The so called "greens"
The CDU supported closing plants too. You can criticize The Greens without using them as a scapegoat.
I mean which countries specifically advocated for it
France themselves, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Austria
So Germany is burning coal because it's climate change proof?
Are we seriously going there?
It feels like you and the French are using populist narratives because it's them who have to import power from bad bad Germany with their bad bad gas power plants. IIRC even the French have agreed to extend renewable energy sources because NPPs have become unreliant a while ago. No, nuclear energy is not a renewable energy source
No we're not. If anything, we agree that nuclear is the only solution that got the job done and that it was stupid to try to replace a permanent power source with intermittent renewables.
If anything, the past weeks showed us that, despite their investments in renewables, Germany was still running on coal during the coldest days.
The main reason we're pursuing renewables is political since the EU fines us if we don't. That's despite the fact that they raise our co2 emissions.
That said, while I think you'd have to be an absolute moron to try to replace nuclear with renewables, the latter will have their use with electric vehicles who are complementary to their intermittent profile.
It’s the only solution? Maybe you have some peer reviewed studies backing your claims?
You mean like proof of the non existence of something?
So you don’t?
Of course I do.
Here is an example of a country who got rid of their nuclear power, invested in alternatives a lot more than France ever did in nuclear, but accomplished nothing by it and are reduced to destroy their own territory to burn fossil fuel while being famous for catastrophic co2 emissions.
https://i.redd.it/szbgg84dm7aa1.jpg
https://imgur.com/a/7cYFQmr/
But hey, I know you are faster than arguments and you are more interested in opinions and beliefs than facts. PR Troll.
And for the co2 emissions: https://reddit.com/r/europe/comments/103wqhq/_/j333ogn/?context=1
Except we get a very hot summer, or there is other maintenance out of schedule to do, like last year.
They had some big 10-year maintenance and took a lot of reactors down on purpose, so that they can supply Germany again with electricity like they do all winters, when the energy output from solar drops down to near 10 %. 95 % of the time, France is supplying Germany. Just because it was the other way around for a few months, doesn't make it permanent.
Great opportunity for propaganda, though
You will find that they are quite functional.
74g CO2eq/kWh.
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"France’s nuclear power stations can be seen as victims of that successful response to the 1973 energy crisis. So many of them were built around the same time as France moved relatively quickly into this current energy paradigm – and that means they have to undergo maintenance around the same time. They were also built according to a single standard – and that means issues found in one plant prompt fixes in others."
Just a case of awkward timing with regards to infrastructure, easily addressed.
Outages haven’t happened as far as I know.
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These have nothing to do with the npps. They are either accidental or part of normal maintenance.
The outage we're talking about would have been scheduled and your dad would have been warned beforehand.
The EDF outage website lists a lot of outages over the last month, mostly short ones in remoter areas.
It's nearly impossible to have 100% uptime over your entire grid. The reasons for the outage you can find on infocoupure can be literally anything. A tree falling down on an aerial line, will be listed as an outage on that website. A piece of equipment burning down as well..
Not a single one so far has been due to a lack of production. Not even industries that would be shut down first had to do so.
common sense on reddit?
you want me to show you how many outages we have in one state in the USA?
do you understand grid systems especially in remote areas?
going by your logic considering the outages in my state we must be not producing enough... lmao, couldn’t be further from the truth.
Production is fine but infrastructure sucks, especially in remote areas.
Paris had a blackout recently. They blamed a faulty transformer, though.
If Germany had kept their nuke plants they could have sold France cleaner energy instead of fucking coal so I don't know wtf your problem is...
The irony is that they'd also could have cut most of it by half since they wouldn't have pressured France to close the freshly renovated npp at their common border.
It's funny how Germany never talks about Fessenheim when talking about "saving France from bad nuclear".
It’s funny how you simply repeat Reddits Nuclearhivemind Propaganda without fact checking with peer reviewed studies. Or maybe it’s not funny but sad.
You read the wrong statistics. With an energy system based on renewables, Germany would not need to import coal or nuclear electricity. The current energy crisis is due to extreme volatility on the global fossil energy market, and an energy system 100% based on renewables will protect the market from such shocks in the future. Until the crisis, Germany was a net power exporter since 2003 and did not need to import nuclear or coal electricity to compensate for relying on renewables. In fact, renewable energy sources had more than compensated for the closure of fossil and nuclear power plants.
During hours of low renewable feed-in and high demand, it is cheaper for Germany to import power from its neighbours (rather than to produce electricity nationally), while in hours of high renewable feed-in, it is cheaper for Germany’s neighbours to import electricity from Germany. However, up to 2021, there was no need to import more electricity from neighbouring countries to compensate for the coal and nuclear phase-out in Germany, as growth in renewables has more than compensated for the closure of nuclear power and coal plants.
It's pointless to argue with brainwashed nuclear people on Reddit. They arrive in droves, it's so funny
There is definitely a Reddit nuclear hive mind and a lot poor nuke trolls. Just ask for peer reviewed studies backing their claims. They almost never deliver.
No most of them aren't. Maybe read the news once
ah yes news vs stats. i’ll stick with stats.
Expensive. Leaves nuclear waste, that has to be deposited for several hundred thousand years in a safe way, which noone can guarantee. As we saw last year, not really relable in France, during a heat wave and drought.
Because coal plants never need maintenance...? wtf?
They fixed them. 3.6 gigawatts of exports to Germany right now. They're not all online quite yet.. but more of them are than France needs given the current weather.
Right now they're doing fine, see real time & historical stats here.
The only reason is that temps are currently 20C warmer than they should be, as soon as the country has to actually turn on their electrical heaters again they'll get hammered.
Is Germany still reliant on Norwegian hydro-power electricity import, or did they restart their coal plants yet?
You can find this information there :
https://app.electricitymaps.com/map
Also Germany is reliant on nuclear plants from France when the wind isn't there and the sun is gone . For example this morning Germany imported electricity from France.
Friendly reminder that not a single watt of nuclear power was replaced by fossil fuels. It were all renewables.
But yeah the botched exit from nuclear power (and especially switching up the order in which we exit from fossil fuels like nuclear and lignite) certainly prolonged the time we have to rely on these power sources.
And for the record, I still think that replacing fossil fuels with renewables is a good idea.
Friendly reminder that not a single watt of nuclear power was replaced by fossil fuels. It were all renewables.
This is just a political spin. If you add XX MW of renewable energy, that could have offset coal just as easily as it could offset nuclear. They're both baseload power. If you kept nuclear and didn't need to offset it, you could have reduced coal.
It's kind of like when they start a new casino but say all the tax revenue will get earmarked for funding schools. Yeah, it does go to the schools "technically" but the state just reduces their funding of schools by that amount and can spend that freed up budget elsewhere. School funding didn't increase year over year by the amount of additional taxes brought in from the casino.
Friendly reminder that not a single watt of nuclear power was replaced by fossil fuels.
Oh right, please tell me how winter days couldn't be powered by anything else otherwise.
It were all renewables.
Backed up by gas.
And for the record, I still think that replacing fossil fuels with renewables is a good idea.
Everybody this side of the pond does, really.
Hey, I have a question. Because I've read that Italy shut down all of its nuclear plants after a referendum in the 1990s. Is that true? And if yes, why isn't it head of more often?
The referendum was in 1987, and the debacle wasn't just once, but again in 2011.
It's an absolute disgrace by all means, but I guess it's not that much felt because:
a) it was just 4 plants, of which only one was more of a commercial modern size than an experiment
b) it was really another time
c) nobody is really surprised for NIMBYism in italy, even for far stupider matters
d) we get a ton of gas from north africa anyway I guess
Ironically enough it's only right-wing parties wanting to push this sensible thing, because they feel like they can win single-issue voters this way.
Friendly reminder that not a single watt of nuclear power was replaced by fossil fuels. It were all renewables.
RENEWABLES THAT COULD HAVE REPLACED COAL! How am I supposed to think that this is a good thing?
Like I said, the way (and especially the order) in which our exit was conducted was utterly stupid (thanks to the CDU).
But the exit in of itself wasn’t the cause for that. Merely the way it was conducted
But the exit in of itself wasn’t the cause for that. Merely the way it was conducted
Eh, not really. Renewables aren't programmable so it's not like they can replace a reliable and constant source without massive fossil plants burning fuel as a backing. The renewables fleet of Germany is already absolutely massive, but it doesn't help the fact that in the frequent instances of low wind and low sunlight the grid is almost completely coal based.
It's a bit more complex.
We actively ruined our own solar panel industry by redirecting money supposed to aid them towards the dying coal mining industry before we ditched nuclear power that never had a big role of production here anyways
Our NPPs are grossly overaged and inefficient, too. So even if we'd use them, they.wont get the job done safely anymore.
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Originality has nothing to do with it.
The fucking green party is against nuclear power while approving turning whole villages into open pit coal mines.
Yeah lmao tell me more how the botched nuclear exit witch was conducted under an CDU/FDP coalition was the green party’s fault.
And yeah favoring a renewable grid over fossil fuels like nuclear and coal is a completely valid approach.
Lmao nuclear isn't a fucking fossil fuel. come on Are you for real?
The CDU stole the greens votes with that stunt. And it worked, didn't it?
Also you didn't favor renewables. The politicans only told you would. But if you really would, than this picture wouldn't exist.
What is that even supposed to mean? Which are „The Politicians“ you are referring to? Because the greens (like other parties) had an actual worked out plan to expand renewables. But in case you haven’t noticed, they weren’t in the government during the last decade.
But yeah you don’t have to tell me that the CDU is full of shit. Knew that beforehand.
Because the greens (like other parties) had an actual worked out plan to expand renewables. But in case you haven’t noticed, they weren’t in the government during the last decade.
Greens put the basic concept in place with Schröder: Go renewable soon. Phase out nuclear by 2020, similar for fossils. We see a massive buildup in the PV industry following this, along with a decent buildup of wind energy.
Green party leaves office. Merkel takes over. Completely mangles the plan. German PV industry is murdered in a dark alley. The 2020 end date for nuclear is pushed back 10 years. Fossils are the way of the future now, I guess? Fukushima happens, so I guess we'll do away with nuclear after all. Then Fridays for Future happens, so we actually have to pretend to care about renewables.
The green party takes office again. A few months later, Putin starts his war, and they have to figure out how to (1) keep our grid alive while (2) fixing the mess they inherited.
We'd be in a unimaginably better place energy wise if the Greens had an uninterrupted say in Government for the last 20 years.
What you don't mention is that the greens themselves agreed to end the enormous renewables subventions. Because they didn't work. The pv industry in Germany was evidently not able to compete against China without them.
But yes the political party I like = good. The political party I don't like is responsible for all what is wrong. Reddit moment.
What you don't mention is that the greens themselves agreed to end the enormous renewables subventions.
When did that happen?
Good boy, go and defend your politicians online! They will undoubtedly reward you with smart decisions and futureproof policies 👍
Nah, they would never tell you stuff you want to hear and than do whatever brings themselves the most monetary gain. That would never happen! How much costs a kWh right now? 50 cent?
Edit: did you ever consider that all political parties are working in their best interest, not yours?
Ah you’re one of those conspiracy nutjobs. Have a great day
lmao throwing stones from a glass house.
I'm talking from experience.
There's deep roots to that though that no longer make sense but they did at the time.
The German left felt that West Germany having nuclear power and a path to nuclear weapons wasn't an amazing idea back in the 60s-70s given the eeerm recent past history?
But yes now it's just daft
Because it is true :)
Except it isn't. Except in a veeerrrry dumbed-down and simplicstic world view :)
Edit: Come on guys. Don't just downvote. At least giove tome stereotypical funny and objectively wrong comments like "Dumb Germany got scared fo Fukushima. Shouldn't ditch nuclear for that!" Or "Nuclear is good for energy safety!"
Dude even expected to receive arguments when his whole comment provides literally zero information, zero arguments and it's so just two freaking phrases of which the main one used just to brag and act like a pretentious douche. Lmao that was weird
Because it’s true ? Also advocating against nuclear in Europe, being shown as model of clean electricity for years while having one of the dirtiest electricity in Europe, and those kind of thing.
There is a general consensus in German society that phasing out nuclear energy before fossil fuels wasn't the right choice. It was a hasty measure by Merkel to improve her popularity in 2011 after Fukushima had let to a lot of anti-nuclear sentiment.
That doesn't change the fact that tons of studies show that an almost completely renewable Germany is possible (in contrast to the claims of tons of Redditors that nuclear is necessary to cover base loads), and that it doesn't make sense to suddenly reverse policy and go back to nuclear power, given that planning and building nuclear plants takes over a decade on average, and would be a long-term investment for decades to come.
It is what it is, and constantly whining about Germany's nuclear exit is getting pretty damn annoying at some point. The three nuclear plants left have already had their operations extended, and the country will continue to move toward renewable energy. End of story.
What makes you think that an almost renewable Germany is possible ? We can’t stock electricity at this scale, it has to be backup by something (gas and coal at the moment).
It's actually rather easy with an integrated European power grid. The North Sea in particular holds immense potential for wind energy, Southern countries have loads of sun.
Also correct me if I'm wrong, but batteries and energy storage in general has been innovating and exploding drastically even in just the last few years, and now they are even pumping up the research of alternative non lithium batteries like the sodium one's
If you wanted to run a city on batteries they'd have to be bigger than the city itself
If you want to transport a city by mechanical horses, they'd be exponentially more expensive, impractical, slow as fuck, dangerous for you and so much harder to learn how to use.
Oh wait no none of that is true cause I just remembered that technological Innovation is a fucking thing and car apparently got slightly better with time and investments.
ok? Doesn't change the fact that high capacity batteries don't exist and would still be inferior to delivering energy directly to the user (and worse for the enviroment)
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Not only earthquake. It could be a tsunami which are actually quite common in Germany, especially in southern areas.
So Germany has psychics now, or why did Germany organize in 2000-2002 to ditch nuclear power because of the Fukushima incident of 2011?
The Fukishima event was a huge tipping point for the country. Before then everyone (rightfully so) thought that the Anti Nuclear Nutjobs were fucking idiots, but after the disaster more people came on board and agreed with them.
Even says in your "source" that Fukishima was a tipping point.
So what was the purpose of the law enacted on April 22, 2002 (and entering force on April 26, 2002) called "Gesetz zur geordneten Beendigung der Kernenergienutzung zur gewerblichen Erzeugung von Elektrizität", what deepl translates to "Act on the Orderly Termination of the Use of Nuclear Energy for the Commercial Generation of Electricity"?
It’s because it’s true. Nuclear is the only sustainable energy source for the future.
Edit: After $500bn of investment in renewables over the past 20 years, Germany will have one of the dirtiest grids in the industrialized world this year. And, ask your German friends what they are paying for it. Electricity is going for $0.50/kWh right now.
The report card has come in, Energiewende is a failed strategy to deeply decarbonize a grid while maintaining low ratepayer prices.
Ontario, and France have the proven solution.
Nuclear is the only sustainable energy source for the future.
Between solar, wind, hydro and ultimately ~~fission~~ fusion, that statement is complete nonsense.
How is that strategy working for Germany right now?
They built $500bn of wind and solar, 130 GW of capacity. Yet their ratepayers are paying $0.50/kWh, and they are increasing their coal and oil power output. They are even clear cutting forests for wood to burn in biomass plants, and at home. They will go back to their carbon output from 2005 this year.
How is that strategy working for Germany right now?
They built $500bn of wind and solar, 130 GW of capacity. Yet their ratepayers are paying $0.50/kWh,
a) Electricity price setting in Europe works by taking the most expensive source in the whole mix, irrespective of how small it is. This has been discussed extensively over the past year.
b) German electricity prices in November were below those of nuclear wonderlands France and Belgium. In addition to that, France heavily subsidises electricity prices via taxes. The real price of French electricity is highly distorted that way.
and they are increasing their coal and oil power output. They are even clear cutting forests for wood to burn in biomass plants, and at home. They will go back to their carbon output from 2005 this year.
Germany's greenhouse gas emissions in 2022 rose moderately by about 3% compared to 2021. Where you are getting your 2023 projections from remains your secret.
Ooof. This guy brought sources.
Yes, he cherrypicked a couple of datapoint, much oof.
Isnt price one of the key factors?
If nuklear isnt cheaper then other true renewables why bother investing millions into it just to end up worse then before.
It is at least as cheap as other clean sources of energy, with the advantages of being always available, a characteristic that solar and wind power don’t have.
Is that bad?
No. Not at all.
That would be true, if germany did develop some of these to make them viable, but alas everybody's fucked and energy costs are through the roof.
a) Solar, wind and hydro have been viable for years, and are constantly being improved.
b) Germany is one of the main sponsors of ITER.
It's still not viable enough, the amount of energy it produces is not efficient. That's the problem. We still are years of development away before we can rely on it and now without cheap oil we can see the sad truth.
You are right, if you are very lucky and geography helps you you can use mostly hydro and geothermal energy. Fission is decades away from being commercially viable.
German friend here: 35 cents.
/edit: Downvote this all you want, it's true and even already the increased price (up by 65% from last year).
Verivox.de says you can get new contracts from 39 cents.
52 Cents for me.
Well they are not wrong.
The Greens irrational fear of nuclear energy is absolutely disgusting to witness.
"Nazi's are bad." HOW ORIGINIAL OF A TAKE!! GOD PEOPLE GIVE IT UP. That's how you sound.
Someone is way too emotionally invested in this 🤔
Those commercials about how drunk driving is bad aren’t “original” either but mysteriously they’re still true
the problem is we had had government that wanted to ditch nuclear(and coal) for wind and solar, then the next government didn't like wind and solar, so they were pro nuclear and lignite, but fukushima happened and they were also against nuclear, but in the meantime they destroyed our wind and solar industy.
Now our nuclear power is almost(we prolonged them a bit) zero and we have a weird split between wind, solar, hydro, coal and gas which doesn't really work.
And our taxes for electricity are stupidly high, so we have to pay a lot at the moment
Goddamnit I’m German and the fucking government makes me lose hope in humanity.. Like why guys why 😭😭😭
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I really hate to say "NPC", but on some topics you can just predict the comments with mathematical accuracy. Like bunch of conditioned rats that hear the bell.
And they always ignore the fact that the people who have the most influence, and the most to gain from denying nuclear, is the petrochemical industry.
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Ehh, we're all tired of this repetitive circle jerk.
It was a bad choice 20 years ago, yes.
I think you're fighting a straw man here.
It’s been a bad choice constantly for the past 20 years. Die Grünen (The Greens) are still actively campaigning against nuclear power, even as the Grünen-led federal and Nordrhein-Westfalen regional governments approve things like the demolition of Lützerath and expansion of the lignite mine there due to the energy crisis. This isn’t in the past, they’re still doing it.
Quick someone put a massive „Atomkraft nein danke“ sticker on it
Because the people protesting now where the same people back then?
They caused the massive dependence on coal and fuel oil in Germany… this machine is their baby
Nice trolling lol.
It isn’t trolling. It is called irony. Those that wanted coal… got the big machines that tear up the earth to get it. They get the millions of lung cancer and early deaths due to air pollution … it is their responsibility
fuck coal and anyone that defends it.
This is what I can get behind climate activists destroying .
Stop sitting in traffic and throwing soup on paintings you cunts, and be brave and demolish this thing.
You’re wrong, the vast majority of climate activists aren’t doing shit like this. You only hear about the crazy ones in the news because the media wants you to think climate activists are some crazy people.
Something tells me that sentiment towards the news stops for certain topics.
Which is sad because all news should be scrutinized
I definitely agree. We need to be critical of all the mainstream media’s agendas. They’re losing the general population’s trust and for good reason.
said by the person doing nothing.
maybe you could get off your high horse and help, since you are so quick to judge.
you want to benefit from them while doing nothing but judging?
I’m not a climate activist
clearly. just a person who wants others to make the changes they want on their terms.
I dunno if I said that either
this is what i can get behind
you talking about how you are behind them. you don’t get behind something unless you appreciate it and support it right? so the goals of the protest align with yours.
stop throwing soup cans
you dictating how they should accomplish thier goals
Sttrrreeettch
honestly agree.
These are probably the same activists that made it so that new coal mines are still needed in 2023.
Well fuck you Too. I need that energy to live.
And all it costs is the entirely preventable deaths of millions of people worldwide
I mean, they won’t succeed but this is what they should be trying.
My comment was more of an indictment of climate activists
you think you need this coal to survive?
why?
This coal in particular not. But the power plant which produces energy for my region is also powered by coal.
And yeah, you could turn it and several others of and we still would have energy as long as other regions can provide it.
But thanks to CDU we still need some more years that toxic shit for power.
So unless you bring us a Fusionreactor or something similar we need those machines.
There are about a thousand climate activists there right now: The protest is called "Lützi bleibt", you can easily find it.
Good. That’s what they should be doing. Not in the street inconveniencing working folk Now if they picked a street that was like, a road to a coal power plant. That’s one thing, but just picking a highway is douchey and does more damage I think.
That dude who did the awesome social commentary art of the “the poors will clean it up” captured this sentiment perfectly
I mean yeah fuck coal, but you need to keep the lights on. Until they build different plants we need to keep mining
No.
You're argument Held validity 30 years ago but has fallen apart at least ten years ago.
The powerplant using that coal? Barely going beyond local if anything. It's useless, basically.
*unless they get completely cut off from their natural gas supply
yeah, no, thanks. i'd rather face blackouts than have people die by lignite poisoning.
People struggle to make the jump from "screw coal" to "it's either nuclear or coal+renewable" in non hydro places.
all of europe is hydro capable.
Not nearly enough, except for mountainous countries (Switzerland, Sweden, Norway...) There is no way to power 50% of the country with hydro for France, Germany...
So renewables = coal/gas automatically today
yup, france and germany don't have mountains and some of the largest river basins at all /s.
They do, and that's not enough at all. France has completely exploited their hydro potential and provide maximum 20% of their electricity with it
Are these the same activists who got all Germany's nuclear power plants shut down? 🤣
Did you know who was in charge in the last 16 years? That's right, the conservative party. And no, nuclear skepticism has been pretty popular for multiple decades since Tchernobyl now
Angela Merkel and the CDU have decided to shut down nuclear power plants and at the same time massively damaged the expansion of renewable energies. The protesters here have absolutely nothing to do with this. Reddit comments about nuclear energy and German politics are just a good reminder that Reddit comments in big subreddits like r/europe are on a par with Facebook comments.
That's simply wrong, the shutdown of nuclear was codified into law by SPD and Greens in 2002. It's literally a core part of the Green's ideology, so much that they were against extending the last three plants by a few months during the current crisis.
They're half right. The CDU went along with the plan to shut down plants.
My friend this is fairly inaccurate and kind of sad actually that you make such a polemic comment. The CDU under Merkel basically just followed the plans made by the Rot-Grün Regierung since the green party directly succeeded the anti nuclear energy movement and they wanted nuclear energy gone. Lets not try to rewrite history here.
The plan was to push renewables immensely while shutting down nuclear and coal. CDU crushed German solar/wind industries and than decided after Fukushima "oh well let's stick to shutting everything down now aswell'.
The plan was to push renewables immensely while shutting down nuclear and coal.
That was a looong term goal. Nuclear was to be shut off first - and so they did. The Greens aimed for about 25% renewables in 2020 (with the other 75% coming from fossils) according to their electoral platform in 2005 when they lost the elections to Merkel.
And they never changed their stance. When they took over in 2021 six reactors were still running but they had no plans to extend at least those runtimes.
In 2011 after Fukushima CDU/CSU (Merkel), SPD (Scholz), Greens and FDP all voted to reduce runtimes for nuclear and in turn keep using coal. It's fair to say they all share the blame.
Does Germany have major fault lines they were worried about? I’m guessing it wasn’t the tsunami risk.
Lol complete bullshit. Nothing else to say there. This is just trolling
The same nobel prizes in this comment section that keep saying that Germany needs more renewables: yep, cause 130 GWp of wind and solar are clearly not enough... if only they understood the concept of Capacity Factor, we wouldn't be in this mess.
They do need more though lol, they need more of every low carbon generation they can get, that includes both nuclear and renewables.
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Nuclear waste is horrifically overblown. It's a simple tool to point at anytime people try to talk about nuclear replacing fossil, just shout NUCLEAR WASTE loud enough until they stop.
Compared to the massive, dirty, disruptive coal mines, creating a long term storage facility for nuclear fuel would be nothing. All of US's power plants produce only 2000 tons of spent fuel yearly. For comparison, to generate the same amount of energy, you'd need to dig up and burn 400 million tons of coal.
And coal also has big challenges related to its waste, which is also pretty radioactive. Some of it just goes into the atmosphere and some of it is dumped into storage tanks which have caused many disasters over the years. But nobody likes to talk about those, because coal.
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But... Why does this matter. If we bury it deep into the ground in the middle of nowhere it can stay there forever. We can't just give up on nuclear because someone/something a hundred thousand years from now might get radiation poisoning. And the alternative, fossil fuels, are poisoning and killing millions around the world right now
Most problems of waste are completely overblown and political anyway. It’s shielded and completely manageable and safe. No one has ever died from the waste either. Additionally, when we recycle it we can unlock even more energy and reduce how long it’s remains hazardous to about 1000 years rather than hundreds of thousand.
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You're not fucked though because nuclear waste causes absolutely no harm to you or anyone else.
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Nuclear waste does not exist forever, in fact, radiation actually decays over time (the bad stuff actually burns up quicker / first). And again, if we recycle the waste we can unlock even more energy while reducing the amount of radioactivity from around thousands of years down to about 300-1000 years.
Radiation is everywhere, it's also a physical waste and not some green goo like you see on The Simpsons or something. When you eat a banana, sleep next to someone, get an x-ray, or go on a flight, you are getting radiation. The waste in dry casks is perfectly safe and has never killed a single person, and they likely never will because it's managed so carefully.
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Right, the nuclear fuel cycle isn't a closed loop, that's exactly why I've been talking about the need to close it...
Because the US has no national repository all the waste from the nuclear plant in my county has has been stored on site forever and it's never harmed a single person. And again, nuclear waste is so safe that you can literally store it in your backyard. You can put all of it in a warehouse like they do in Ontario and the background radiation will be less than half that of a commercial flight. A centralized facility will only make nuclear more safe than it already is.
Even accounting for some of the worst nuclear disasters, nuclear is still one of the safest and cleanest forms of energy we have:
https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy
Everything has to be extracted, everything has to be manufactured, and everything has waste.
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We could close the nuclear fuel cycle today if we wanted to but we shut down our advanced reactor program back in 1994 largely thanks to natural gas interests (does this sound familiar at all?). The concept was proven decades ago with the EBR-2 and it was even able to demonstrate passive safety as well. The only thing that's stopping us from doing any of this is politics.
Closing the nuclear fuel cycle means building fast reactors to recycle the waste. Doing this not only unlocks more clean energy, but also, again, reduces the radiotoxicity of the waste as the longer living actinides get burnt up. Waste is sitting all around our country right now and has been for decades, no one has ever died from it. I'm sure we can keep managing it just fine.
As far as safety goes, yes, it is absolutely still dangerous, but that's exactly why it's managed so carefully just like many other things in our lives. Cars aren't safe either, but that's why we have speed limits and have to wear seat belts. I usually refer to them as death boxes. Planes can be similarly dangerous, but they're not, because we regulate them and ensure safety standards in them. The same is all true for nuclear, and the fact that there's been no deaths from waste should truly speak for itself. But even looking at the whole picture, nuclear disasters and all, the numbers are clear, nuclear energy is one of the safest and cleanest forms of energy we have today. For all the places you named as well where there have been disasters, those countries have all continued their use of nuclear energy and are all wanting to build more. Even some of the reactors themselves they were able to continue to operate some units. TMI Unit 1 was finally shut down in 2019, and it could have kept running. Chernobyl Unit 2 was shut down in 1991, Unit 1 in 1996, and Unit 3 in 2000.
https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy
No, it's one or two generations later. That's the German dilemma: There was a huge fear if nuclear power, fueled by fear of nuclear annihilation during the cold war and of course by Chernobyl. So it was decided to get rid of nuclear power. But then they realized coal was even worse. So now they are protesting that (and to be fair, they have a point, especially using bauxite).
So now they are protesting that
Protests against lignite mining started in the 80s (see for example page 61+ in an anniversary paper of 2014)
correct
Incorrect.
It's mostly the "last generation" - which is very strictly against nuclear power
The very same.
I didn't know the CDU was active in these protests. Because it was that party which was in the goverment the last 16 years. Not the Greens. And it was Merkel who agreed to shut down all nuclear power plants 3 days after Tchernobyl because she feared for the upcoming regional elections.
But you won't find that on Reddit. Obviously
Are these the some dumbasses that swallow any propaganda and think german nuclear phaseout has anything to do with fukushima or chernobyl or even that this lignite is used for substitution?
Why is it phased out then?
The anti nuclear movement in Germany started in the 60s. The green movement back then (and still today really) was against industry in general. It's about bringing back people to nature, at any cost.
So anything Unnatural needs suppressing. Nuclear is clearly "unnatural" as its using machines to split the basic building blocks of nature, and the tech is also used to make bombs. But you also have a block of GMO products in the EU because of these people, and they are the main pusher of the anti-Vax narrative.
The darker side will also make arguments like "we are too many people on this planet, and it's unnatural to fight mother nature"
The nuclear accidents helped fuel this movement, but it was going strong long before they happened.
You have an understanding of the german anti-nuclear and environmental movement of a 5 year old living outside of Germany. While some of your stated connections exist, you make it sound like the anti-nuclear and environment movements are the same, homogenous, against industry, against nuclear energy, for coal and gas, for GMO products and are all anti-vaxxers.
And the worst part is, people apparently believe in your bs.
The anti-nuclear and environment movements are not the same, they are a vast amount of people and organization with partially widely differing opinions and the topics you mentiond - that's why it's called "movement" and not group for example. For example, you have to throroughly look around before you will find somebody from those movements embracing coal because it's 'natural'.
And while there are definitely anti-vaxxers among them, as they are in all other parts of society, they are by far, by very far the main pushers of any anti-vaxxer narrative.
Greetings from Germany
Pretty creepy stuff. I wonder why they are okay with natural gas though and using arguments like "we need to mine coal, should we just have blackouts?"? Or are these different groups?
They are OK with natural gas and coal because it's "natural". The green movement is not in this fight to save us from climate change, they are in it because it is going to destroy their ability to "return to natur"
I want to stop climate change because I want to stop the suffering that it will cause, they want to stop it because of the damage it will cause to natur. Climate change killing of a billion people is a perk, a positive side effect to an otherwise bleak future.
Actually these people are poisoning the climate change debate well with their retarded takes and making people be pushed away from it to some other extreme.
I also still kind of believe that climate change is some Chinese Bill Gates hoax to depopulate the earth exactly for people like that who really push this narrative unironically :D
I also still kind of believe that climate change is some Chinese Bill Gates hoax to depopulate the earth
That may also be the reason why you seemingly believe somebody with a Norway/Sweden flair on reddit talking highly generalizing nonsense about the german anti-nuclear and environmental movements.
It seems to be true, no? And what his flair has to do with it? I only pay attention to flairs to verify that someone saying "oh, how are those nuclear plants working out in France, hmm?" Or "nordstream was a very reasonable project at the time" to be german.
longer reason: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0096340212464357
Something about broken clocks
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Nobody was assuming big oil was honest and responsible to begin with
Your right fossil fuels backed the greens attempt to remove nuclear.
They both still did it.
The German coal industry literally funds anti-nuclear propaganda.
Nope.
Correct.
They actually signed the extension of this mine behind closed doors with RWE.
Yeah, their first casualties were their own brains
Meanwhile Reddit buys into the coal propaganda that lithium mining is anywhere near as harmful as coal mining. Truly a moronic user base
how about cobalt? The biggest cobalt deposit in the world is in a country that's ok with polluting and digging by hand for 12hrs a day with child labor. It takes cobalt to make a Lithium ion battery.
Only some lithium ion battery chemistries use cobalt. For example, Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) batteries do not contain cobalt.
what's the percentage in the market of those batteries?
About half of Tesla's use LFPs. Other manufacturers are still developing LFPs but expect the overall percentage to grow with the next generation of EVs coming out.
Maybe like 30lbs of cobalt goes into a battery and is used for a decade or more.
30lbs of coal powers a house for a day or two.
The comparison is outright ridiculous. Both the environmental concerns and ethical concerns of cobalt are practically zero compared to coal.
Child labor is truly awful but also has absolutely nothing to do with environmental impact.
while these children toil away they give birth to deformed babies because guess what the ground and water they work in is toxic.
Alright, and what does that have to do with the climate, or really anything in my comment?
There’s more cobalt in an iPhone than in an electric vehicle
Especially because we don't need that coal, lithium on the other hand ..
The German fossil fuel and car lobby have done great work…unfortunately.
German police protect climate activists from bucket-wheel-excavator in the former village of Lützerath
FTFY
The Bager-288 needs no protection
„Don’t you see, we’re guarding this multi-billion Euro corporation armed and in riot gear just to help you!“
police protect property, not the plebe
An entire village erased for coal we don't need.
I'm sure they're digging it up because their accountants are just really bad and hate money.
I would be much more happy if that coal would be underneath Berlin.
Actually there doesn’t have to be any thing underneath there. Just dig it away.
ahhh so they show their true colors.
It’s not a secret that I hate Berlin.
It was the biggest mistake of the Allies not to blow it to up 1945.
ok buddy enjoy your unhinged opinions.
They are not protecting the excavator, they are protecting the activists. Unless you know what you are doing, you can hurt yourself really bad climbing on one of these. Especially if it is still in operation.
Source: Buddy of mine works there.
I don’t work there but have worked on plenty of mining and heavy timber equipment. The things that cut rocks and trees are very sharp. Seeing as how there are videos of protesters licking themselves into chicken killing machinery, I wouldn’t guess they’re the most mechanically savvy lot. Probably better for everyone to leave bagger 288 alone.
I've worked in many many dangerous places in my life and the only reason you need a riot shield is to keep people back. If you just wanted to keep them safe, you'd just put up a sign and tape.
I feel like it works both ways.
As some people would be willing to get injured for the cause.... That's how critical the situation is getting.... Hence the more and more extreme climate protestors.
And that would stop the company as they can't legally operate under such condition.
It also means power out for their customers, which, considering the weather over the last couple weeks, are most people in the general area.
It is the warmest European new year on record, it would be annoying but not awful. Germany needs to stop carving up the worst fossil fuel possible and get ove rtheir irrational fear of nuclear power. Fukushima isn't going to happen in Germany, and Germany's nuclear industry has never had a serious accident.
ha ha ha ha. of course your buddy works there.
They say a picture says a thousand words. This picture screams one:
CAPITALISM.
Capitalism represented in one image.
I don't know about that. You can be a capitalist without being pro fossil fuels.
There are a lot of things wrong with capitalism but supporting fossil fuels like this is a new level of evil.
I mean do you want hospitals to have electricity or naw?
Do you live in the 1820s? There are more sources of electricity than coal. The only reason coal is used is because it's presently the cheapest source of energy and all companies care about is profits, hence OPs comment that this is about capitalism. If societal good was placed above profits, we wouldn't be stuck using fossil fuels
Coal is far from the cheapest. It’s being used because the idiots tried relying on a foreign country for power and needed a quick fix when they got cut off
There were no excavators under socialism, simple facts.
You utter chucklefuck… you think the planet runs on good wishes and unicorn tears?
treasure planet theme starts playing
Simon Stålenhag"s illustration - that was my first thought..
There are multiple view points close to the surface mine in case anyone is interested in seeing this dystopian landscape
Just google Aussichtspunkt Tagebau Garzweiler since I can’t link to the Google search result
Collaborators of evil ...
This is the face of our future and I hate it.
What an embarrassing job to have.
At least they have a job, unlike most climate activists.
What?
That's a hell of a shot.
State sanctioned excavations.
CD projekt red definitely take notes
Amazing picture! It expresses so well how we as a society deal with climate-change/sustainability and its dark future.
Now that's an album cover
Just goes to show that all cops are bastards
That thing could probably protect itself just fine.
Looks like the zombie map Moon from COD Black Ops
What the hell does a bucket-wheel excavators do
Here’s one in action. It excavates whatever it’s pointed at. Link.
Thanks that was very helpful
Legit thought this was a screenshot from Fallout 76
Wow. I don't know if it's because of the background or the people but I seriously thought this was concept art. Amazing
this is some sci-fi looking shit
God bless them for protectibg these endangered machines
🤡🙏
The fact that Germany still have this open pit coal mines is really sad.
Fuck coal
Hey if any of my fellow Germans are reading this: this is why we hate cops. their job is to protect the status quo first and protect us second.
And if you look closely enough there are far too many asterisks behind the word "us" to seriously believe they have our interests at heart.
Oh look... the police protecting the property of the rich from the people the rich victimize - exactly the thing they were invented to do.
Spectacular image. I find it terrifying.
Let it de-meat the activists
I think they are protecting the activists from that freaking monstrosity
Storm troopers ensuring the destruction of a planet.
protecting the destroyers of the planet ,)
I mean, wtf are the protestors going to do, get smashed into jello?
I'll glue myself to it.
I’d pay to watch that.
Great use of the cops' time..
I’d actually like to see them glue their hands to that.
This look like it could be a scene from a video game.
Let them jump in it if they want to! I guess they want to be “sacrificed painfully” for the “greater good!”
Looks like that goddamn hard level of goldeneye
The Siege of Bucket-Wheel-Excavator
For a second I thought this image is Generated by AI.
protecting company interests yet again :/
Gonna need that thing on the moon to dig up all that Helium3 that China wants for itself
POLICE will always potect the people in POWER because they pay their salary.
Looks like some sort of ancient derelict spaceship.
They were lucky, if they got in it's way they'd soon to be demeated
Cyberpunkish.
Always protect profits over people. /s
We live in Final Fantasy 7.
Finally found the comment I was looking for
I thought Germany switched to green energy, What the hell is going on?
Our coal is green
No such thing:D
We did & still do. But you know. Money ..
I hope they burn it to the ground
Looks like a battle scene from Star Wars
Avatar way of the German
Are we the baddies partner?
I hope to god some hippy had a big speaker and played the Inception Bwooom music for the whole protest.
Reminds me of the Cabal mining machine on Nessus.
…what was the name of that strike again?
when will greta disavow her supporters
This is a real photo? It looks like a sci-fi concept painting.
Can't we feed the climate activists to the machine?
…thus preventing their future carbon consumptions. Sounds like a win-win to me.
At least you got the joke. 🤣
Thankfully the machine is still running. I wouldn’t want any Germans to freeze or go without electricity. Especially since renewables aren’t quite up to snuff to alleviate our need for cheap fossil fuels. Hopefully they will be soon.
The fuck. I thought I was on r/worldbuilding for a second there. I did not expect this to actually be real.
ACAB as usual
Yay for the police and them having no moral compass whatsoever! Thanks guys! You're doing us humans proud!
Star Wars
This looks so cyberpunkish
Looks like something out of a dystopian science fiction movie.
Germans are so weird
That's some real Simon Stålenhag / Tales From the Loop stuff right there.
Does such an iron and steel leviathan really need police protection? Seems like suicide to even get close to it!
Implying untrained civilian protestors wouldn't.
What are the activists gonna do? Glue themselves to it? Throw a bucket of paint, which will look like a tiny scratch on it?
I feel like in a fight between climate activists and a giant bucketwheel excavator, the excavator will bore right through them.
Bagger 288 doesnt need protection.Bagger 288 IS the protection. May the Omnissiah bless its iron body.
When protesters were throwing paint at works of art everyone was bitching how they should protest things that matter if they want public support. Now, here they are, protesting things that matter, yet the response from all the top comments is "cool pic bro".
Nuclear waste? Nahh lets destroy hundreds of kilometers of soil just to have something less eco friendly.
And the worst part.
Brown coal tends to be aradoactive, since it binds Radon gas.
So all the dust in the air, that people breath in, is radioactive.
I suggest making ecocide a crime against humanity and corporation, their CEO's and shareholders if found guilty subject to the death penalty by drowning in oil...
Energiewende in action. They sure did the right choice quitting on nuclear electricity.
this pic goes hard ngl
Thought this was from a game for a sec
Activist groups like Ende Gelände that are now present there also blockaded Nuclear Energy 😂
I feel like that excavator doesn’t need protection 😅
This is more protecting the protestors against killing themselves, that place is dangerous and that machine will not even notice a squishy human
No it's not. It's more protecting the exvacator against protesters to climb onto it so that it has to be shut down for safety reasons. You can pretty safely climb that machine from the right places, but then it violates oprating guidelines and is stopped.
Also, given the brutality the police treats the climate protesters, it's safe to say that they don't care the slightest about protestors safety.
You can pretty safely climb that machine from the right places, but then it violates oprating guidelines and is stopped.
by the time they even notice some protesters climbing that thing the first dozen has already been crushed.
Hambach
Garzweiler
Jänschwalde
Vereinigtes Schleenhain
did i miss any german lignite open pit mine? In all of them they occupied exvacators in the past.
And it achieved... Nothing
Why won’t people understand that when we don’t mine it here, it gets mined elsewhere and we end up dependent on shitty people?
according to several studies that coal isnt necessary for german energy safety, its mined for profit.
Then let them take the consequences of their actions, they're anti-human and complaining about earth's population so they're doing themselves a favor.
they're anti-human
Actually we're going to boil to death in a few decades but sure, blame the guys fighting against that happening.
Discounting the fact that what they're doing has done more harm than good, we're not going to boil to death. Will there probably be more extreme weather which has the most consequences for poor countries, yes. Their solution is making people suffer from lack off energy instead.
Protect and serve corporate profits.
Go nuclear, stop to use stupid energy sources
It's too late for Germany, but yes. Go for nuclear + renewables.
Genius move. It only takes like at least a decade to build new nuclear power plants. Unlike renewables
Better late than never.
Besides, renewables need fossil fuels 'cause they're intermittent.
Alas, this is the price the lowly pay for a few high-and-mighty holier-than-thou idiots closing down clean energy because of a few avoidable accidents that got more press than they deserved.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_natural_gas_and_oil_production_accidents_in_the_United_States
My wording was a bit inaccurate. What I meant by building was rather the time from the first plannings until you can actually use the reactor. Building time is often shorter (although 7 years is still quite a bit). Combine that with another few years of planning and you get at least a decade.
With that in mind, it is completely impractial for Germany to ever return to nuclear energy.
"More press than they deserved" immediatelly disqualified you for any further discussion. Complete bullshit. But what to expect from brainwashed nuclear Redditors. Here's also a list with a few nuclear related accidents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_civilian_nuclear_accidents. It also really doesn't make any sense to compare gas related accidents to nuclear related accidents which are way, way more critical
...
I'm not trying to insult you here, or say rEneWaBLeS baD. I just like a good discussion.
Edit: aaaaand deleted. Why, mods or whatever, why?!
Nonsense.
Nuclear power plants in Japan and South Korea take around 3-4 years to build, so it is possible.
Thank you. We need to end all fossil ASAP and we need to start building nuclear now. Renewables are also cheaper than ever too. We have many tools to address this crisis and we need to utilize them all.
Climate activists: Shut down all Nuclear!
Germany: Does so, runs out if power, starts burning coal do the population won’t freeze / run out of power
Climate activists: Surprised Pikachu face
the climate activists in lützerath aren't the same that protested against nuclear, at least not mostly. The opinions regarding nuclear are quite mixed
The coal under lützerath has also proven to be not necessary for power even in this energy crisis
someone nailed it above these are just baseless facebook comments.
almost as if climate activist are made of different people! wow 😯
It is the other way around. If a human where to fall close to the edge, where this monster of a machine is working, they would fucking die.
And thats what they are doing, protecting people from killing themselves.
You have it backwards.
"Former village" was probably just a village before the monster showed up, right? But now the cops are there to stop the former villagers from being killed by the monster.
dang the bootlickers really be all over this thread.
Well if you think a bucket wheel excavator needs protection from a few dudes, who at most could be armed with Molotov cocktails, go ahead. As long as no one gets buried alive I really don’t care.
lmfao. yeah sure y’all act like this thing was made for war and has 0 invulnerability.
It has an exhaust and fuel system like everything else. And ten times the hydraulics of most equipment.
lmao molotov cocktails. do you have any idea what you are talking about?
This is the price Germany pays for killing low carbon nuclear power and following the advice of antinuclear activists who never cared for the climate in the first place.
https://apnews.com/article/politics-germany-business-climate-and-environment-renewable-energy-7604aa30cadd47af074cecd532c351c6
Because the people protesting now where the same people back then?
Germany's Ende Gelende and other climate movements support atomasstieg. They did not connect the dots.
My favorite hobby is making german antinuclearists seethe with denial.
"it's almost exactly what those pesky nuclear energy people said. Should we de carbonised and go nuclear?" "No, I'd rather have a ruined earth than go nuclear" "Fair enough"
„Haha, you fools“ he exclaims, as he‘s drowning just as everybody else.
Or maybe because of someone else.
Police have one job. To protect capitalism. ACAB. Yes, even European ones.
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The size of that thing! Damn. It looks really sci if as a picture.
Actually, they’re protecting activists from coming too close to the Bagger 288. The Bagger 288 wreaks total utter devastation. The Bagger 288 contains an artificial mind, This mind is full of hatred, Violence is it‘s sole vocation. This monstrous, murderous machine can never be defeated. It’s seething wrath and urge for blood are fueled by searing hate. Any person who gets in its way is soon to be de-meated. Beelzebub himself now fears the Bagger 288!!
Dystopian.
The police, any police, are not there to protect you. They are there to protect the Ruling Class’ property.
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"Are we the baddies?"
"Just following orders."
Climate activism helped Germany close nuclear plants too
Wtf were they thinking
almost as if climate activist isn’t one person but many people with different views, never mind the 20 year gap...
Yes because the Greens have been in the government in the last 16 years, Oh they weren't? It was the CDU? Shock!
The Greens still fully support anti nuclear hysteria based on lies and feelings.
The correct way should have been to build not nuclear in the 2000s and phase out coal and gas by 2020.
Because the people protesting now where the same people back then? Maybe don't talk when you don't know shit bro. 💀
Reddit when far right nuts are blowing up power stations: DOMESTIC TERRORISM!!! (I agree btw)
Reddit when climate activists want to stop coal excavation and endanger coal supply for power plants: this thread
You know we're in this peculiar situation where building more wind turbines doesn't help unless you want to not have power on days without wind and solar. They're not stable and cannot work without coal, gas or nuclear.
Nuclear is the way. Don't put my guy with goal and gas.
It's obviously the best at the moment. I was just listing stable power supplies that can be had anywhere. Hydro is probably the best but you need suitable terrain for that
No. Nuclear, we made breakthroughs in Fusion and there is no thing better.
Breakthrough were made but TODAY you can start building a nuclear power plant and connect it to the grid in 10 years. The same does not hold true for a fusion one.
Build me a fusion power plant today, c'mon do it
Yeah, I love the misleading title by OP calling them climate activists instead of eco-terrorists.
something something apples to oranges.
nice false equivalency.
completely different things that you make black/white to falsely equate them.
Completely different stated goals should alone give you the tip off.
One has the goal of causing destabilization through any means possible and has currently attacked many many many power stations under no specific cause.
One is a group of activist/villagers who have their homes destroyed protesting against something that is unnecessary for humanity. Not coal in general but specifically this coal.
the fact you can compare then says a lot about you.
Yep, fucking 🤡.
The powerplant using the coal isn't even a minor player in energy production anymore.
It's basically done because the company which ordered the excavation fucking can.
Fossil fuels aren't sustainable, never have been and pilled up a huge mess of a problem. Ignoring it, like you do, won't solve it.
Nuclear energy bad!! /s
Yesterday: "yep, we're amazing, we have so much gas"
Today: "that's cause we're burning coal and wood... but we're still super green, don't worry, give us 10 more years"
maybe... that's not the same person`?
yeah it’s getting tedious making the same comment.
they think climate activist is one person since the 80s
Star Gate?
We need more people like them
(the activists, naturally)
German Police protect the capital fron climate activists blablabla. That's the right line.
The fossil fuel industry needs to be destroyed immediately at all costs. They are the enemy of the people. Seize all their assets without compensation and dismantle their operations
Based.
Looks like it could be a scene from Dune!
Or a video game called rust!
"to protect and to serve" (the big corporations)
Rust Players protect giant excavator from counters 2023
ACAB
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Climate activists were told if they whine enough, something will get done.
If you want to make a change, be a scientist, an engineer etc and make a change, quit relying on whining to get what you want and expecting someone else to come up with a solution. Or have your children go to school for actual jobs in related fields instead of this shit.
ACAB still applies to other countries.
Funny how they shut down all their nuclear plants to dig coal out of the ground instead.
Because the people protesting now where the same people back then? Maybe don't talk when you don't know shit bro. 💀
People protesting nuclear when they don't want climate change are morons bro.
I’m all for destroying capital when it’s literally destroying the earth and the people around it
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POV: you own a tesla and finds out where it's "clean energy" comes from
The biggest problem is that those same activists are the first ones to have cheered for the closure of the German nuclear power plants, which has been the most stupid and environmentally criminal decision within that Energiewende failure. Good luck with the coal now, but next time study more beforehand.
In this case activists have a point. Germany decided to stop perfectly fine nuclear plants (zero emissions) on the "greens" false premise they could go toward a 100% solar and wind power. When reality hit, they decided to restart coal/lignite mines and power plants to make up for the power deficiency. Fun fact, coal contains small amounts of uranium, so when you burn the thing your are also dispersing radioctive material in the environment. Now tell me who is the green here.
Fun fact, it was under the christ conservatives that germany started the end of nuklear and then botched the Energy Reform. Nothing to do with the Greens.
Look, I am from Italy so I cannot claim to be 100% sure, but i think while CDU held the government the greens votes were important enough for them to survive. The other claims stands still however, are german greens TODAY in favor of keeping the last nuclear plants? If not, they are basically disconnected from the reality of what we can do today for emissions.
I mean just throw them in, it will solve all of its problem and provide lubricant
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It is truly fucked up that the German government fancies quick and cheap energy over a future for our children. Lützerath is an act of mass murder.
Lützerath is an act of mass murder.
Who exactly was murdered?
Future generations are being murdered. If you do not understand that, than you clearly have problems with your intelligence.
I assume you use electricity yourself though? Or is your home 100% independent?
ahhh upvotes for a loaded question that is nothing but special pleading.
Claiming that we need Lützerath's lignite is a fallacy. There are a thousand other ways to provide electricity.
That's correct. And that's why there is a change in energy structure and away from coal. Could it be faster? Definitely. And it's no coincidence that Germany is increasingly favoring the Green Party. But not everything is black and white and hysteric "that's mass murder" bullshit doesnt help anyone, nor does it accelerate the transition process.
It isn't bullshit. We are killing humanity. Little children in future times will suffer because of our actions. Your denial is the only thing that is total bullshit here.
People have been saying this shit since the 60's and 70's and life has only gotten better...
So you are really going to deny climate change now?
Nah I'm not a ridiculous liberal thats trapped in a bubble.
Little children are suffering right now from you breathing yet your still breathing.
this whole thread is nothing but logical fallacies from people who would rather complain than ever do anything.
What happens when you replace nuclear energy with coal.
Because the people protesting now where the same people back then? Maybe don't talk when you don't know shit bro. 💀
Stop reposting and post something original with valid points. Bot.
Guess I'm a bot now because I copy paste answers to the same stupid takes.
You get nuclear spills and meltdowns.
Fuck ever corrupted piece of shit politican that signed this shit
Everybody gangsta until some dude with long grey hair comes floating in the air and summons a meteor.
They wouldn’t need to be protesting if these same stupid fools didn’t pressure the government to get rid of nuclear.
this lignite mine is older than the anti-nuclear protest, so while it could have obviously been shut down earlier if coal had been outphased in the past instead of nuclear, there would have probably been similar protests and situation to this, just decades earlier.
the climate activists in lützerath are also not the same ones that protested nuclear energy (since many are much younger).
Sentiments regarding nuclear are very mixed but because the coal under lützerath is not needed for german energy supply, everyone there regardless of opinion regarding nuclear agrees that the mining must be stopped
almost as if they aren’t the exact same climate activists!
almost as if it’s a bunch of different people who could gasp possibly have different views....
They are absolutely the same people.
that’s literally not even possible but okay.
It is possible, but in any case, it is people with the same ideology.
aight burden of proof is on you. you are making this claim. give me any proof that there is 0 ideological differences between climate activists today and those who sought and end to nuclear power.
Climate “activists” suck
They're right though
Good heart, bad mind. Ecoterrorists want to burn everything down because they demand instant gratification. If they got their way, we’d just he like India polluting even more.
They should use their time to get to positions where change can be enacted.
As annoying it may be. Some changes didn't happen due to argumentation. There had to be a certain pressure in advance. Like worker rights didn't come from peaceful protests.. Women's rights weren't granted only because they protested modestly.
"Ecoterrorists," my fucking sides
Society has treated climate change as a major existential threat for over two decades. What have the world's governments done in that time to make sure we don't drive ourselves to near-extinction?
Fuck-all.
Big oil is gonna big oil. Polluters are gonna pollute. What should we do, politely ask them to please stop? Why would they ever stop when they're making record profits and accommodating climate change policies would affect their bottom line? That's gotten us absolutely nowhere.
The reason climate activists demand instant gratification is because we need instant action. Not in 30 years. It will be too late by then.
Using overly emotional and hyperbolic language is a big reason why a lot of otherwise reasonable people are turned off from caring.
There has been a tremendous amount of progress but angry black and white thinkers like you see it as none. “Fuck this” burn it all down is the adult version of a temper tantrum. There’s no short-term solution doesn’t result in genocide or worse climate change.
Claims like “it’ll be too late in 30 years!!” have been said for 70 years. When these claims don’t come to fruition people question if there’s even an issue in the first place. It’s the progressive version of a Christian fundamentalist shrieking about an impending rapture.
We need rational, honest discourse and campaigns.
Claims like “it’ll be too late in 30 years!!” have been said for 70 years.
Can we stop making up total bullshit, please? Find me a paper from the 1950s saying that. You can't.
In fact, in many ways, the effects of climate change are progressing even faster than what many climate models have predicted years ago. Each passing year is the hottest one on record. Remember last year's heat wave that broke temp records? Yeah, expect that again this year. And the year after that. CO2 ppm levels are rising exponentially.
It blows my mind you can look at all of this and say "nah, everything is fine, we don't have to do anything."
And this whole "activists make me care less about climate change" is just a poor excuse, and you know it. You don't care about climate change because you don't think it's a big deal.
We need rational, honest discourse and campaigns.
Great, start being honest, then. Stop bullshitting me.
That time has run out a few decades ago
Our species decided to ignore the rising issues despite the effects taking effect quickly. I disagree with attacking paintings, but eh.
What you want them to do is what we did and which didn't work: sit it out.
Easy to talk. What instant action do you propose then?
Ban coal now and buy gas from Russia so they can finance their genocide of Ukraine?
Ban coal now and buy from some other country doing the same thing but dirtier and more unsafe?
Ban coal now and cast everyone into darkness while we reconstruct the nuclear power plants the environmental activists of yesteryear got decommissioned?
Outlaw dirty industry, go to war and genocide/subjugate all the countries using dirty extraction methods?
Imagine defending lignite mining online lol.
Not only is it the worst form of coal to burn, it is literally only mined because the fossil fuel lobby want to make as much money as possible before people switch to cleaner energy and they loose their lobbing power and can’t scam us all anymore.
Only an insane person (or a lobbyist) would defend lignite mining.
The reason I made the comment is these climate "activists" in Germany were protesting nuclear fission reactors. The data was clear, nuclear fission is by far the best intermediate step between fossil fuel and renewable energy sources. But because these nut job protestors managed to convince enough people in government, Germany started phasing out fission.
That I do agree, German "ecologists" have been a bane all through Europe, slowing/stopping development of nuclear reactors and slowing our overall energy transition
Fucking tools
Then why complain about the one time they actually attack the coal industry instead of helping them?
because that would interfere with their narrow world view.
easier to just throw them under the bus and keep the status quo.
The data was clear, nuclear fission is by far the best intermediate step between fossil fuel and renewable energy sources.
I think a lot of these people are kind of done with "intermediary" stalling, I don't blame them.
Fission is a decent enough source yes, but it's far from harmless and proponents of it really make it sound like it's just magical, clean energy with no real risk. That's kind of crazy because it creates toxic waste that doesn't go away for hundreds of years.
At this point, it seems like anything that's going to be slightly inconvenient is going to hold up the whole project, it's like people want this nice, safe and comfortable transition when that is completely impossible. I think these activists recognize this and are tired of the whining and stalling.
another person who acts like climate activist is just one person since the 80s.
I’d rather them destroy this thing than ruin working folks lives by sitting in traffic or throwing soup at art.
Well on a scale of problems this might be worse than the art thing, since all those paintings were behind glass.
I agree. I like that the activist are even there. The fact that cops need to defend this stuff is good.
I hate coal, but an energy crisis isn’t the time to be curtailing our power generation capacity. Wait until the crisis is over
this mining pit still has enough accessible coal to last us till 2030, the coal under the village is therefore not needed
Anytime someone acts outraged at activists drawing attention to the climate crisis by tossing paint at artwork - planned to not affect the artwork - I want to show them this fucking monstrosity:
https://twitter.com/joanielemercier/status/1115019071689506816
The gif shows the Cathedral of Immerath (built in 1891) being destroyed by RWE excavators. Fuck the fossil industry, and fuck the people complicit in this.
They used to use termite to destroy giant, destructive, German machines. Maybe we should take a lesson from world War 2
Okay, let's take a trip to the savanna! We're gettin' armed and ready!
/j
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So many people here complain that this is dystopia, but the first person (you) to mention doing something about it gets downvoted.
Do you plan to generate energy from the power of Friendship? Can you share that technology with us?
I'm pretty sure that German government does not consist of moustache twirling villains, but their energy policy has failed due to overreliance on cheap Russian gas and irrational fear of nuclear. Now they just reap what they sown.
Do you plan to generate energy from the power of Friendship
Renewable energies.
Ah yes, since the overreliance on one irrational dictatorship failed, let's make ourselves dependent from People's Republic of China.
We would have to mine gargantuan amounts of rare earth minerals to move to 100% renewable economy. I'm all up for renewables in the mix, but without nuclear energy it's simply not viable.
We would have to mine gargantuan amounts of rare earth minerals to move to 100% renewable economy. I'm all up for renewables in the mix, but without nuclear energy it's simply not viable.
Then we enforce nuclear energy and whoever protests can get fucked.
Agreed. But nuclear is not renewable. It's just clean energy.
Do you know how long it would take for our supplies of fissile materials to be exhausted? Because considering our current energy consumption it would take several million years: by which point we would have started using fusion instead which only requires water to produce energy.
Nuclear fission is so efficient that the a single gram of Uranium produces the same amount of energy as a 1 ton of coal.
Does anyone ever have a source for this 100% renewables being impossible for whatever reason. The concept obviously already works for island grids as well as in test cases. Just that with the actual grid we have a bunch of 'legacy' production that we can effectively use as a backup.
Solar is 95%+ made from silicone (one of the more abundant raw materials ) and direct electricity storage is barely needed anyways with the amount of alternative storage we have (heat, gravity, chemical) so the problem isn't going to be LiPos either. And wind turbines are just polymers glass and metal so that isn't really a problem either. Also nuclear doesn't really solve any of these problems because it's just more baseload leaving spiky renewable production as spiky as it is. It just raises the minimum production very expensively.
And yes relying on china to manufacture PV panels might not be ideal but once the tech is delivered it generates energy wether china want's it to or not, a stark improvement from gas plants that compete with households for gas capacity. (Using Huawei for communication in Germany is a much more pressing dependency issue imo)
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Looks like that scene from DUNE in the begging
Very dystopian. Anyone know what this particular operation is mining for?
The surface mine is used to extract lignite https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garzweiler_surface_mine
Thank you. I see that that's a type of coal. I guess at least the activist chose a good site.
Eldritch horrors
Coal is a mistake.
/r/cyberpunk
The subreddit r/cyperpunk does not exist.
Did you mean?:
Consider creating a new subreddit r/cyperpunk.
^(🤖 this comment was written by a bot. beep boop 🤖)
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Crosspost this in Cyberpunk
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Disaster capitalism.
This wealth consolidation opportunity was thanks, once again, to war.
Are we the baddies
Remember acap
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acab is international
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where did you pull that from?
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-greenhouse-gas-emissions-and-climate-targets
https://www.marketplace.org/2021/09/15/can-germany-europes-biggest-carbon-polluter-clean-up-its-act/amp/
sounds like projection Mr. NPC
yeah let’s use the stat before the crisis!
👏👏 nice cherry picking.
we are specifically talking about germany and this is just “but but other people are worse.” so what Ignore the issues in germany?
My argument is, that it makes no sense to stop all use of these fuels. Germany already has extra effort to switch to renewable, but it has to be economical. Because becoming poor will not help to invest In these technologies.
But these advocates don't understand how the real world works. It's brain imagination that it works from 0 to 100 in just a few years. Step-by-step is the way with it and in the main time, investment in technologies and replanting destroyed eco systems.
yes but this coal is shit and not even needed....
you and I have very different visions of the future.
should check out:
https://collapsepod.buzzsprout.com/
I will listen in to it . What one you recommend?
honestly all of it. it’s very thoughtful and researched. Most claims aren’t claims per se but observations of fact.
I was just looking at an art thread and thought this was someone showing a sketch. To realize this is a real life photo is heartbreaking. What the hell are we doing to our world. We know climate change is real. We know we have finite resources. We have brilliant minds that we could dedicate to figuring out new energy sources and ideas and instead corporations are still doing shit like this. Damn them.
I hope the people circumvent those bootlicking police, reclaim their land and do what they want with that excavator 🔥.
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Police doing the job they were created to do. Protect capital.
Those cops are class traitors.
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Looking at the size of that thing, I think the cops are protecting the activists from the machine
If that machine can fit in your village, it’s not a village.
ACAB
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tf is a climate activist going to do against that thing? seems like it protects itself lol
I'll glue myself do it.
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Our planet will recover, humans on the other hand ..
why are my tax dollars going to this
I just don't get why Germany didn't wait 10-15 years to phase out their nuclear power. As I understand, the last plant was just closed in December. They could at least have pledged to phase them out with renewable energy, instead of going hard on coal and Russian oil/gas.
Russian gas hasn't been imported since August, oil imports have been stopped before the new year began. The first LNG terminal took four months to build and is in operation. Even though we only have three nuclear power plants left the total use of coal has been reduced further. These plants didn't shut down, their usage has been extended. Maybe get your facts straight before repeating lies over and over.
clima terrorists*
Just a friendly reminder, cops are not going to help the people. They only protect and serve corporations.
Germany should pay for letting it self be manipulated by russian assets into closing nuclear plants, the same way Pigs had to pay in the sovereign debt crisis.
Remember who the police actually serve.
Ensuring that people who want to peacefully protest can do so, and also not be injured, while not destroying private property at the same time, are compatible interests.
It’s called a civil society with protected liberty interests, beholden to the rule of law instead of the mob.
hahahahahahahah thanks for the laugh.
Flair checks out. Sounds murican
If you ever wonder what side of the "money vs environment" argument the government is on: there you have it.
Fuck coal. And honestly, fuck Scholz.
Yeah, fuck your heat. Die this winter. Totally reasonable.
Yeah too bad coal is literally the only source of energy on the planet
Nuclear was a great much cleaner one, but it's a scary word so Germany started shutting them down.
If you can figure out another infrastructure that can reliably produce the energy needed to prevent people from freezing to death, I'm sure they're all ears.
Wind doesn't always blow and it can blow too much. The sun isn't always up and when it is, theres often too many clouds to maximize production.
You can't store the wind or solar energy efficiently either. Can't transport wind or sun to blow or shine where it's needed.
Coal on the other hand can be extracted, transported, and burned when it's needed, where it's needed, without concern for the weather playing nicely
Scholz snorted too much Brechmittel.
Cops threatening people who want a livable future with violence in name of protecting the most wealthy elite in the world?
Color me surprised.
Hah! The Bagger 288 needs no protection! They are there to protect climate activists from it! It changes the landscape wherever it goes, and some tree-huggers will defeat it where doom-robots and godzillas failed?! Laughable, I say!
"The Bagger 288 is there to safeguard Humankind,
The Bagger 288 wreaks total, utter devastation!
The Bagger 288 contains an artificial mind,
This mind is filled with hatred, violence is its sole vocation.
This monstrous murderous machine will never be defeated,
Its seething wrath and urge for blood, are fueled by searing hate,
Any person who gets in its way is soon to be de-meated,
Beelzebub himself now fears the Bagger 288!"
Climate activists in Germany are some of the stupidest people I have ever met. I was there 8 years ago when they were protesting to have the mine re-opened. They wanted this. Then their fucking handful of collective braincells suddenly kick in and realise that protesting the government to reopening a derelic ex soviet brown coal mine was probably a bad idea for the environment.
Any source on that? Ende Gelände is the biggest climate activist movement in Germany and organizes actions against the coal/lignite mine expansion since 2015. You're saying around that time, other activists were in favor of re-opening coal and lignite mines? Are you sure those were the same people?
Well cant the same peiplebwcause 2015 was less than 8 years ago, but you couldnt go anywhere Im Frankfurt without anti nuclear electricity protestors. They were very clearly told that this would mean the re-opening of coal power plants, but they were all ok with this, even when I argued with them that the long run damage of coal to replace nucelar would be worse than a very unlikely nuclear meltdown which had only just happened in Fukushima due to an earthquake.
But they didn't care. they just wanted to hand out green ice pops and be like "this could bea nuclear fuel rods poisoning your system" and so chose to have coal mines re-opened.
Basically the German equivalent of Brexit. A load of riled up morons thinking they were saving the country, when really they were putting it 9n it's knees.
I think we agree the phase out of nuclear is a bad move for the climate. But that's just slightly different than 'they were protesting to have the mine re-opened'. They probably were willing to believe Merkel that that wouldn't happen. By the way, coal is not really replacing nuclear, I mean coal is being phased out much faster than nuclear. Of course, without phaseout of nuclear and especilally with an investment in nuclear it could be even faster, but the news about re-opening coal mines blurs the bigger picture.
Phase out is, in the long run, a necessity but as a middle step we have to bite the radio active apple and accept NP.
But the plants for that in Germany are too old.
Climate activism be like:
-Shut down the nuclear plants! Now!
-Ok, we're going to use coal plants instead
-WTF? Stop mining coal then!
-Ok, what should we do next?
-Buy same amount of coal, but import it from other countries, until we find how to mess things up even more
You have to protect mining equipment from activists.
How else will we mine fore materials to build electric cars, solar panels, bike paths and the bikes to meet activist demands
It's an excavator that's used to mine coal you 2head.
Coal for making steel or burning, 1head? I do not kno...
Goes to show the police isn't actually to protect the people but capital
Protecting a huge badass machine from deranged hippies. There are definitely worse ways to spend your time.
looking at post history this comment makes total sense.
hope you enjoyed your morning dish of boot.
Deranged Hippies that wanna protect the earth for you, me & everyone who will ever live on it.
Those activists/hypocrites are living without modern technology and comfort?
You criticize modern society, yet you live in society! Curious.
Wrong life cannot be lived rightly
It's not about modern technology or comfort. Coal will be phased out until 2030 but those companies want to tear up as much land as possible until then. Whole villages are bought up and destroyed to extract the shittiest of shit coal.
Coal is not modern technology. One can be against the choices that were made leading to the use of coal and fight for changes while not being against modern technology and comfort. Although in the case of Germany, there is also a large pseudo-eco movement which is anti nuclear. So they should make their minds up.
You don't need coal for modern technology or comfort.
Yes but those same activists wanted the nuclear powerplant shut down, you can’t have your cake and it it too.
Really? The exact same people? Or the same group? Or just other people who are also climate protestors?
Yes
They can live however they want. Just gather your friends and go and live in the mountains or a remote area. No electricity, no technology, it's perfect, just don't impose your way of life on the others.
The others may of course pollute the air and wreck the climate of the remote area, which is only a remote area because it was difficult to settle in.
Where in Germany can I find this mystical "remote area" where my friends and I can live?
Don't mind u/hectarina , they are clearly just having a complete mental breakdown and vomiting any piece of half knowledge they can think of. Also in basically every single western European country it isn't really feasible to go live in the woods or any remote area by yourself like weird libertarians love to do in the USA
Sadly!
I'd love to be a weird libertarian living in the woods, but you usually need money to do that.
Then please don't impose dirty air on me. It's not really healthy.
Username checks out.
You could say the same about protestors who wanted to have asbestos removed from homes.
You: "They are hypocrites, wanting to have asbestos removed yet they have enjoyed the comfort that asbestos provides!" 🤪
ecofascists or ecoterrorist. call by their name
Lol, they're certainly not fascists. There pretty squarely on the left even
Far left and the far right are the same lunatics who are driven by hate. So yeah, commies or fascists, both are ready to kill in the name of their religi...sorry, ideology.
Far left: We want a clean environment, equality of opportunity, health care, housing and dignity for all people regardless of background for a sustainable and better tomorrow for our grandkids!
Far right: We have no idea what we actually want, and even less ideas of how to get there, but here's an enormous list of things we hate!
Far left: we want to drive off foreign investment, create authoritarian laws which only the minority of all the public wants, create laws that prohibits criticism to us, support authoritarian regimes as North Korea & Venezuela, and have acquitted former terrorists that killed 18 people
Fixed for you.
Try to live in a country that still has a communist party in parliament and a Marxist-leninst one still alive.
Hey, an enormous list of things you hate without a single solution or thing you actually want. It's so nice of you to help me out with examples! Thank you.
Hey, an enormous list of things you hate without a single solution or thing you actually want
Lol, so blatantly nevermind the things far-left parties have done harm and hated? Damn sure is nice to live in your head
It's so nice of you to help me out with examples!
Yeah, want more examples of how far-left killed, tortured and broke laws in my country? The 70's was crazy!
If you want solution for that then perhaps the Greens in Germany shouldn't have made nuclear a taboo... Also don't forget that this specific coal extraction was approved by the Greens.
Germany isn't a country for solar, wind or hydro power renewable energy, nuclear was the best choice and they throw it to the window...
Right, we're in a climate crisis already killing roughly 100,000 people each year (WHO says), which could turn into an existential threat for the human race and our CO2 production is continuing to rise so oil company bosses and other mayor polluters can get more fake money points, but climate activists who are critical of this are the danger?
Unregulated capitalism is a deathcult pure and simple. What we are manufacturing is the collective suicide of mankind because for fuckers like you any sort of squaring market forces with reality is "communism".
Unregulated capitalism is a deathcult pure and simple. What we are manufacturing is the collective suicide of mankind because for fuckers like you any sort of squaring market forces with reality is "communism".
This. We should actively strive to create a mixture of capitalism and state regulation and revert all Reaganist and Thatcherist policies.
The trouble is that the corporations responsible for the climate crisis have quite a lot of influence on the government. Through conflicts of interest, intransparancy, corporate executives turning into politicians and then back into (more well-paid) corporate execs after their time in parliament etc., on a systemic level, our democracy is de-facto corrupt. I honestly doubt that we can ever see a reversal of Reaganism in that context.
I do think that in the specific case of oil companies, it would be good to nationalize them or to make them worker-owned. Specifically to break this corrupting power.
The trouble is that the corporations responsible for the climate crisis have quite a lot of influence on the government. Through conflicts of interest, intransparancy, corporate executives turning into politicians and then back into (more well-paid) corporate execs after their time in parliament etc., on a systemic level, our democracy is de-facto corrupt. I honestly doubt that we can ever see a reversal of Reaganism in that context.
Then we do a coup, we enact social policies and whoever protests gets sent to prison with no process. Problem solved.
Hahaha, I doubt that much would be necessary
You're right. Even more would be necessary, but I avoid writing it here so as to not get banned.
I mean, yes but I don't know why you'd say protesting people should be send to prison without proces. You're joking right?
Those who protest the pro-environment and pro-popular policies? Yes. No more influencing CEO, no more right-wing politics and the world gets finally fixed.
Yes, I see, and I do agree that PR (making propeganda) and things like lobbying should be illegal for corporations. That said, my fear with banning right-wing politics is, who is going to decide what makes someone "right-wing". I'm afraid that those in power will define anything that opposes their rule as "right-wing"
perfectly sane comment by a normal person driven by love and understanding
This.
[removed]
They're antifascists, just like every democrat.
Fuck Greta!
Lol. That worked out really great for the last guy who tried.
She’s pronuclear now
As a middle step and not the solution
Same protestors that put an end to futuristic clean nuclear power because of the amount of waste that fits into two of those buckets, and put us all in this crisis of gas and coal to begin with. Otherwise Germany would be 90% emissions free all the time right now, with no dystopian police-guarded diggers against moronic protestors without a clue.
same ones? like the exact same people? over 20 years no one different?
Germans are literally the worst.
Because the people protesting now where the same people back then? Maybe don't talk when you don't know shit bro. 💀
You over-literal German nitwits.
Im rewatching X Files these days, and this photo gives so much of this series vibes.
I almost mistook this for Star Wars.
Just finished playing jedi fallen order, thought this was a star wars sub for a second.
Man, shit like this is so depressing. Nothing like police defending a terrifyingly giant coal mining machine to drive home that world governments don’t give a shit about the future of my generation and those born after me. I’m never going to give up pushing for a greener future but… How do you not feel like shit is literally hopeless when seeing stuff like this?
One has to wonder, since those police can be, well, fairly, certain, that the photograph is going to be-
Nevermind, I was going to ask the obvious question, "what must these men think?"
Instead, I'll ask a question which, sometimes, seems as obvious to me but, broadly, I don't think, is asked much,
Some element of it is to frame the stakes for outside witnesses, "look at how seriously, at this protest, those men were concerned for their own safety," e.g. throw a milkshake at a ballistic shield, it's gonna look as dissonant as one fired out of a shotgun, and, resolve in the mind of an outside person in a similar manner, "must be dangerous."
Sometimes, I think, #1 becomes obvious where it Overwhelms Practicality, as an american, uvalde, as a Saint Louisan, what happened at the arts school down the street from me in contrast, I suspect you'll even have trouble finding an online record
Lol! "German police protect" sounds...lol? 😂😂
I wonder who finances those activists.
Your Mom.
IS THIS AN AVATAR REFERENCE?!?!?!?!?!🤯🤯🤯🔥💥🔥💥🔥🔥💥🎆🎇🎆🎆🎆🎇💙💙💙💙💙💙💥🔥💥🔥💥💥🔥🔥
In a galaxy not so far far away.
Is this about coal ?
When I saw a bunch of these in Andor it made me crack a smile.
Bucket excavator thoughts - Man I WISH they would!
Fallout 76 the ash heap before the bombs fell
Wasn't this a plot point in the Fallout series?
Coal mining? I hardly think so.
Actually, reliance on fossil fuels terrifyingly late into the 21st century is a key plot point of Fallout. And there are like 200-year-old mutated coal miners and stuff. Coal mining is definitely part of the Fallout story.
I meant conflict surrounding one of these giant bucket wheel excavators, specifically.
It’s actually the opposite. Fallout generally explores a reality of what it could look like if we were able to miniaturize nuclear fusion to the consumer level (you can’t, but fantasy) and everything had nuclear powered technology. It’s as if the sci-fi of the 50s was allowed to proliferate and evolve further with lasers and plasma and stuff.
No coal though. Maybe in some expansions or whatever.
Sure, there's consumer-level fusion, but the transportation sector in particular was still de-carbonizing, and not every country had access to U.S. technology. Didn't the whole war start because China invaded Alaska for oil?
Not sure how the coal figures into any of that, though. Coal may indeed have been an expansion.
That’s some spooky stuff
Shame.
That looks like a science fiction scene.
Spectacular photography
Looks cool but also evil
The government is working with the Decepticons!
This is starting to get pretty serious.
Just send 2B in.
That thing is horrifyingly big.
STRONG Akira vibes
They do not wish a visit from the emperor
Climate activists please just collect funds and attack climate change through law suits and crippling the industry with good energy policy. The vandalism is only going to lead to chaos.
What if you win a lawsuit but they just bribe the judges to overturn it, then to prosecute you for daring to sue them?
They already do.
Ghost Rider would like to know your location.
Love the uniforms for maximum intimidation.
It looks like a scene from the first Avatar movie, when they’re excavating in Pandora. Awesome pic.
r/absoluteunits
Looks like some new spaceship the aliens from 'Alien' would be using.
spooky
There are some rune fragments on top of that thing.
Bagger 288!! Bagger 288!!....
“Former village”
Storm Troopers guard the Imperial Extraction Droid removing the surface of Sol III
The bucket wheel MUST be fed! More climate activists. Muahahahaha
I have a feeling it's actually the other way around. What else is gonna happen than few dead activists?
Make it black and white, put a parental advisory on it and it'd be an album cover
The spice must flow...
Bagger 288 will defend itself easily
Star Wars is real?
The bucket wheel can handle protesters on her own
cringy
Duel of the Fates begins playing
I just think of Lego Technic
How as a human race can we look at a machine like that and not think to ourselves “You know what, maybe there is a better way…”?
I mean look at it. This photo is ominous and looks like some evil alien Sci-Fi shit, and yet we are doing this to our own planet. Wild.
I have no idea where one would begin to screw up a machine that big.
This photo looks like something out of Final Fantasy 7
I didn't ask for Avatar real life adaptation
Horizon Zero Dawn vibes
For those who care about the environment:
Don't worry these giant bucket wheel excavators are entirely electric and don't consume any gasoline.
They are literally plug-in EVs, just that they can't be unplugged and have giant extension cords like an Evangelion.
It is all good. /s
Im gonna be honest I though this was from a movie for a second
Hearing this photo with fat synth sounds.
clearly the good guys, protecting it from those dangerous climate-terrorists
If only someone threw them a rock (in minecraft)
Das ist Perfekt für das Arte Format "Mit offenen Augen"
Arte has to make an episode of "Mit offenen Augen" / "Le Dessous des Images" about this picture
This is like cyberpunk dystopia shit
Awesome photo. Wonder what the activists could do to a machine that size anyway? Kick / graffiti it?
As much as I hate this whole thing and the destruction of a village, I just realized that it would have been terribly interesting to see the construction/assembly of that machine... and I missed it. Dammit.
Welcome to City 17
This some Cyberpunk shit
Looks like a snapshot of a movie set.
Is that the bagger 288?
Why does this look like a sick ass anime cover?
Is that Bagger 288?
Pretty sure they are protecting the activists from excavator.
Found this trippy effect on google maps not far from where this machinery is located: https://imgur.com/a/ZkBp0yz.
Looks like everything is hanging upside-down.
I thought this was a new star wars poster...
Is that the Bagger 288?
Cause I think its the other way around, the police were protecting the protestors from it.
Uh, just had a look at all photos of Lützerath on Google maps. Sad.
Some sort of dystopian PlayStation game..?
The reality far more depressing…
I hope those officers are happy knowing that they did their valuable contribution to... society or whatever they think they're contributing to.
Pretty sure they're protecting the climate activities from that beast. Man I thought I have operated some big machinery.
Knocking off climate activists one by one is the best way to limit CO emissions.
My tired ass thought this was a screenshot from halo😂
A Brave new future awaits us.
Thought this was screenshot from sci-fi game at first
Looks like a scene from dune
Saw a great short film on environmental activism recently called Finite, which I think covered this?
https://www.espressomedia.co.uk/finite/
"are we the baddies?"
Exactly how are you supposed to protest against a machine the size of an office building?
What happened to the village for it to be deemed „former?“
Well the village was torn down to make way for the mining operations
I wonder how big the underground road network really is. Thats an insane piece of machinery.
God damn. Looks like a matte painting
Das Gewürz muss fließen.
r/absoluteunits
OK but the fuck would they be able to do to that? throw rocks at it?
I'll glue myself to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaqkUGH16lE
As if that thing needed protection.
Storm Troopers protect Empire mining operation
They chose violence as their language, who are we to not respect that choice?
As if those climate activists could do any serious harm to this giant vehicle
Heh... Someone didn't watch the scene in breaking bad, where he explains thermite...
hey, it's the Bagger 293, largest vehicle in the world
The mission of Bagger 288:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Gtw0iYQkE
Don't ever say that Germans care about environment
looks like an alien crash site
Cursed ferris wheel
One would think that thing should be able to protect itself, no?
Nah, that is the SCP Foundation guarding some anomaly.
So class traitors safeguarding the methods of exterminating the entire human race while the rest of the population bleats instead of doing something, anything to even attempt to avoid this fate.
So how long until we get Immortan joe as president and we get paid with water?
Thanks, I hate industrial dystopia.
I think it’s more protecting the people from the excavator
Oh wow, I though it's a picture from some new movie before reading the title
The sense of scale in this picture is really ambiguous. I might be in love with giant bucket excavators now.
Looks like something Simon Stalenhag would create.
They gonna throw soup at it?
I'll glue myself to it.
A drone with a bomb could knock that shit down? At least make it so that repairs are really expensive?
"Drone better."
~ Ivan Vanko
"Drone better."
~ Ivan Vanko
I wonder where will you get your lithium for your batteries in your new cleaner world if you don’t dig it up
The corpses of dumb people
This looks like a video game called Rust.
this picture reminds me of that picture of some last rhino being protected by soldiers from poachers pic
That thing’s some sci-fi sh*t. This one was the largest land vehicle ever made as of 2014, per the Guinness Book. They range in size, but even the “small” ones are the size of a hotel or something. I might be on the activists side here. Wonder what they’re mining.
It is terrible coal also.
But this is an example of jobs for morons taking priority.
You’re facing the wrong way
Climate activist fighting a raid boss and then he spawns cop mobs.
I hate when bosses do that.
I thought I was looking at AI generated art and that the headline was the prompt. Photo looks surreal.
I worked for an automation company that automated these machines. They're called Stacker/Reclaimers and they're absolute monsters.
I didn't believe it until I saw it for myself but sure enough, you could tell the machine a pile to dig, the amount and speed and never touch another button.
I know this Destiny 2 map.
Imagined having to defend something that could probably kill a tank without noticing from protesters
You can even see some of those holes they are digging from space. There is one close to Düren (Germany). Just look it up at Google Maps an Zoom out. It is really terrifying how big it is.
This is just excavator monument in Rust.
r/megalophobia
Bullshit, this has gotta be from a video game
Ohya we going into the weird sci fi plot lines now...
Wow! That is an awesome picture.
This bucket wheel reminds me of this music video. https://youtu.be/5tEfYvY3bAg
Picture: German Police protecting Giant ground bagger from environmentalists.
Me: The sky people protecting Giant ground machine from the Navi.
(Btw you don't even have to imagine anyone on the picture, it looks like it already)
At first glance I thought this image was from a movie. Then I read the title. Awesome image.
I honestly wondered for a split second what at crash landed.
nicknamed 'earthfucker' the giant wheel actually fucks the earth
Callisto Protocol looks awesome.
deeprock galactic!
Definitely thought this was a screenshot from a video game. Incredible to see.
Excavator Pi has caused decompression in… Tunnel 7.
Re: source in comments
It is well buried. Why was it not included with the posting? Duh!
Kinda reminds me of the video game psi-ops
This pic goes hard
The hell can protestors do to what is essentially a giant chainsaw for the ground
Shinra
Energiewende läuft super
This photo reminds me of Fallout the game.
What a sick ass picture. Holy shit
Dystopian af
This reminds me of Star Wars
So sci-do looking, that's awesome! I don't think schön quite fits here but that's a sweet picture
And i just thought this is trailer for a new sf movie
This is literally a scene from Avatar where Jake wakes up to the dozers
This is a scene from yet some other Star Wars spin-off right?
A Sardaukar squad protecting a spice harvester.
Not a good look for the government
Looks like a Stargate was discovered
It looks scifi-ish
More like protecting climate activists from it
They are huge but fast
Are we sure that isn't a Stargate?
Bagger 288 anyone?
Those badbois will simply consume the much smaller 'activists' 🙏
Apparently shitting your pants and dumping some glue on your hand is now an activity 😑
Reminds me of red faction guerrilla
How loud is that thing?
Yes.
Dystopic ass picture. well done!
No no... We aren't a dystopia. Yet.
So you’re trying to convince me this isn’t a screen shot from an anime? Nice tryyy
It's a silly idea to try and destroy something like that to help the environment. The resources required to rebuild it would have a great impact on the environment, and you can bet your ass the operation would rebuild it.
/r/Simon_Stalenhag vibes
Sweet cyberpunk dystopia ya got there.
Not in favor of mining but…what exactly do activists plan to do that thing !?!
I mean, Luke did an AT-AT but he had a lightsaber and a grenade and stuff
Looks like the Stargate!
looks like screen capture from an 80's sci-fi action flick.
This feels dystopian somehow
It looks like that thing can take care of itself.
This pic goes so hard feel free to screenshot
We live in the dystopian future we feared lads
Atomkraft? Nein danke
Because the people protesting now where the same people back then? Maybe don't talk when you don't know shit bro. 💀
Looks like you would see out of Halo.
Now ignoring everything else, that is a really cool photo.
Reposted in /r/cyberpunk in 3...2...1...
This looks like a scene froma dystopian fantasy world
The perspective there is nuts. Looks like a video game screen shot.
Looks like gears of War ffs
I wonder how they feel about being there.
That's when you have to steal a DIFFERENT bucket-wheel-excavator and drive it into this one
Can you imagine the fight? It would be a very slow one but man it would be awesome.
That machine is so freaking insane!
goes hard tho
I suppose the question now is, how to break a machine like that from beyond the police line? I guess throwing rocks at it won't be relevant.
This is going to be a photo in a book about the early 21st Century studied by kids in underground chambers while they wait for the Earth to heal.
Property & profits over people. The police and anyone who joins them are a disgrace. Class traitors at best. Narcissistic, fascist, psychopaths at worst.
Fucking dystopian, really shows how police solely exist to protect property, and not the lives of people.
Please!!!! Shoot them!
Wow they ruined the landscape
Eco-fascists protecting the destruction of the earth. Gross
Protection from government sabotours.
“Take that marrow maggot!”
Weird dystopia
Begun the Climate Wars have
So looks like a video game.
Very Dune-esque, amazing pic
Dear Lord, imagine serene starling woods being torn to pieces by that mofo. I mean they know the reasons, it's nobodies fault, it's just part of a process but I can't blame anyone for not liking it either.
It's also probably for the safety of the protestors, big machines and small, squishy humans don't mix well.
Incorrect. They protect activists from Bagger 288
These looks like sentries on the perimeter of a base after the stage loads. Pro tip: Sniper Rifle
I'm really mad rn because what in the fuck am I gonna do to THAT thing?
For a second I thought this was a BeepleCrap image
They're keeping the activists safe from the machine, it's full of hatred and thirsts blood.
I thought it had to do with something from Horizon Zero Dawn
here before funny lock award
Bruh thats the thing from fallout76...wait they're real?....
That looks really big
By bucket-wheel-excavator you mean the monstruos Bagger288/293, the biggest land vehicle ever engineered? Each bucket fills with ~7 tons of dirt/stones. What were they even planning to do? Glue themselves to it? Try to remove human-sized bolts? Regardless, the picture is breathtaking!
Throw soup at it 🤣
More like protect climate activists from bucket-wheel. Bucket-wheel ain't going to give a fuck if some fleshy human try to get in it's way.
Why is Germany so backwards when it comes to green?
Disgraceful
Pretty sure they are protecting the climate activists from the excavator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azEvfD4C6ow
I am sometimes struck speechless at just what we are capable of. I know people think that mine is an abomination but all I can see is the line of humans who thought big enough to bring such a thing into reality.
The spice must flow.
What a good pic. I’d frame this
this looks scifi as shit.
I’d love to see activists try and block this thing like they do on the roads.
It looks like it can protect itself.
I kinda dig this
Bagger 288 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azEvfD4C6ow&ab_channel=Rathergood
We love you, Bagger 288
nearly a pulitzer photo
Would you rather fight 100 climate activist-sized bucket wheel excavators, or 1 bucket wheel excavator-sized climate change activist?
Do they want to dig to middle earth or what?
Looks stunning, gives dejavu from a movie scene
r/Megalophobia
That´s a great super villain lair
Woah.... I thought for a second thats a new scifi movie xd
From climate change terrorists...
FTFY
Yeah I'm reasonably the digger wasn't the thing being protected from harm in this scenario.
I thought this was a piece by Simon Stålenhag first!
What’s the context and full story? Who are the “good guys” and “bad guys” ?
Oh well, at least the activists here are better than those idiots who desecrate artworks in museums….
I wonder How many people can that excavator kill?
I wonder if the guards know they are the baddies in an evil empire straight out of a sci-fi movie.
I feel like the damage has already been done by the excessive nuke test they just redirect it
One-pic Energiewende.
Badger 288
“We’ve explored the ruins of Aperture Science, and have found something titled Project GLaDOS.”
This photo is a visual representation of the Anthropocene.
This looks like an FF7 set
How big is that thing?
The Justice League has seen better days
Image feels like it is part of this music video.
Woodkid - Goliath https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tEfYvY3bAg
Looks like the cover to a game. 😳 Terrific photo.
That looks like a counterpart of the borealis
That looks like a still from Final Fantasy 7 Remake... I'd recognize those Shinra security guards anywhere.
IS this final fantasy 7 ?
No way they made the rust excavator monument into a real thing
Definitely seems like a movie.
What's this Just Cause 3 type shit
R/absoluteunits
"are we the baddies?"
You have it the wrong way around, police are protecting protesters from that thing.
Inadvertent Final Fantasy VII cosplay
Like something out of a Neill Blomkamp movie. Awesome image.
That pic belongs in r/megalophobia
Coal must flow !
Mabey they wouldn't need to protect it if our politicians started to act like sabe people and stop supporting coal...
Makes me think of Goliath by Woodkid
In a Star Wars parallel universe (made with Stable Diffusion)
Looks very dystopian
State-sanctioned violence serving capital
IS THIS REAL???
RED FACTION!
Why does this look like a scene straight out of a Final Fantasy game???
This reminds me of the Mako reactor from FF7.
Are they crazy! Did they not see Troll on Netflix??
I feel like this image could win some awards
The spice must flow
All context aside, that is a dope picture. Like something out of Dune. Harkonnen beasts!!
I feel like this is a dystopian narrative prompt.
The keepers of the peace prevent the self elected protectors of nature from damaging the earth ripper.
They are blocking access to Rolling Fuck's fondle carts!
Looks like a Final Fantasy Shinra Company extracting life stream
Bucket wheel excavator? I thought they were massive trenchers.
Ther are lots of people trying to save the town now, there is a big camp in Lützerath. Everyone is welcome there, so if you can dont hesitate to go there! Stand strong against people destroying our future!!
Man, it's a shame we're can't say "In this case violence is totally justified" here.
r/accidentalrenaissance
Neo-Isengard
The Skypeople did this in Avatar, we saw how that ended for them 😬
This picture reminds me of the movie "Enemy Mine".
Fallout 76
CoD flashbacks anyone?
Ah Kenari
Simon Stalenhag could sue for this photo imitating his art,
that's crazy.
No way this is a real pic
I'm getting Final Fantasy 7 vibes.
The Bagger-288.
Rust scientists?
Brilliant photo. No intention to manipulate the perception of „climate activists“. 🤡
Pretty sure the excavator would win...
WARRNING EXCAVATOR PI WILL BREACH TUNNEL 6
How much damage could they do?
Former? 👴
r/Megalophobia
reminds me of the intro flying scene of the first avatar movie and maybe a bit of r/cyberpunk
r/megalophobia
I imagine it's for the protesters' safety.
There's a video of protesters locking themselves to a basic chicken slaughter line, one passed out and almost died when it was turned on. There are plenty of other videos of people confronting machines that end a lot worse.
Energiewende!
At first glance, I thought this was a scene from one of the new star wars things
Gives me Warhammer 40k vibes
Giving some wolfenstein vibes
Bagger 288 in all it's glory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azEvfD4C6ow
Thanks. Fits my mood today rather well
That pic looks like some scary cyberpunk sci-fi shit
🐖🐖🐖
Seriously, can they do any damage to this monster?
BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288! BAGGER 288!
Stealth mission?
That thing looks like it came straight outta Mordor
How small of an F-stop do you need to get one of these completely in focus
Is that stuff government owned or private business? If the latter than this is fucked.
The spice shall flow !
Are we the Na'vi?
Former village? Did they dig it up
Yes
Not yet, but they plan to after getting rid of the activists protecting it.
See this is great. It fucks with a massive, greedy company directly. It doesnt shut down streets and trap people for hours who just want to get their daily pittance.
I’m wondering how an “activist” could harm one of these things.
Looks like a scene from robocop
The leaders of the world sat down around a secret table There was a threat to human kind they must defend against To fight against Godzillas they just simply were not able Doom robots from the future could be met with no defense
this image looks scary dystopian.
Fucking they all better have played Shadow Of The Colossus because I don't know what they're planning to do if not.
This legit looks like a scene from a dystopian movie/show. The lighting, the massive mining machine thingy that doesn’t look quite possible with our technology yet very much possible, the riot looking police, and the ominous smoke in the background. This seems like a perfect ominous scene
Holy fuck, people built this machine?!?
Yep the class of excavators this machine is in is a whole other world from any construction tool ever made.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagger_293 This one is arguably the largest, and the size is mind boggling.
Some better pictures for scale https://sometimes-interesting.com/bagger-293/
r/engineeringporn
This is a very good photograph.
r/DystopianPorn
I'm pretty sure there's a xenomorph somewhere in there.
They've uncovered the STARGATE, finally! O'Neil, come back <3
What are they going to do to that monster - glue themselves to it?
Thought this was some star wars shit or sm
This photo is so surreal.
Can you imagine one piece of wiring going bad, and then trying to take the whole thing apart to figure it out? 0_0
Beautiful
That image is right out of a cheap sci-fi movie…
Looks like a special effect from a sci-fi movie, but more realistic and authentic. Special effects workers should study this photo and step their game up.
Gives some sci-fi vibes
Is there a high resolution of this photo?
Final Fantasy VII
Mordor is back
my first reaction was “I’m concerned about the environment but I also think that Bagger 288 is cool as hell, can’t we both coexist” but that take is probably gonna find its way to r/enlightenedcentrism.
Ghost Rider possessed that thing one time and it was the coolest part of a bad movie
well, that's the most Star Wars thing I've seen in real life.
r/megalophobia
As an American, can a German explain why Krupp is always behind some of your country's biggest industrial/military equipment?
At first glance, I thought this image was a new piece from Simon Stålenhag.
Almost inspires me to do a post-apocalyptic themed TTRPG campaign with this as a part of it. Any recs on system?
Pic looks other-worldly
i thought that was a video game or movie photo lol
r/AccidentalRenaissance/
The spice must flow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azEvfD4C6ow
"Up ahead was Pandora. We grew up hearing about it but I never thought I’d end up going there."
Looks dystopian af
Me and the boys waiting for giant excavator pit to finish
Bro, I’m pretty sure I just saw this movie by James Cameron!
Thought this was destiny for a min. Amazing.
Reminds me of that scene from Avatar
They are soon to be de-meated…..
https://www.reddit.com/r/MachinePorn/comments/1048saa/stacker_753_with_tripper_car_at_the_lignite_mine/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Gonna be real funny when the AMOC shuts down and Europeans ask why is their shit getting kicked in.
megalophobia triggered
Reminds me of the bucket excavator in Fallout 76
Bout to cut a hole and find some Aliens
oh man I thought that was a tales from the loop painting
This is deadass a destiny 2 strike
This looks like something out of a Cyberpunk dystopia. I love it.
Looks like they’re ready to get 24^th century on their asses.
What a dystopia we live in
This is beautiful! True Art! In fact, true futuristic art!
And the title is just *chefs kiss* the cherry on top!
Pff protect them from it more like
New Dune movie looking hot!
Lookin' semi-dystopian
Is this considered an accidental renaissance?
Directed by Villeneuve
Reminds me of the big last scene in Tango & Cash
The Dig
I used to get really upset by pics like this, but when I eventually accepted the fact the earth is completely fucked, now I can just see them as kind of interesting. It's like getting to go back and time and hang around with an extinct animal. Just happy to enjoy the final show.
what genre (is that the right word?) of photograph is this? i need more
Looks like a still from a Ghibli film.
what the hell. this timeline's narrative, infuriates me. i am one commitment away from joining one rebellion or another. i am shocked there aren't more fighting. i am jealous of those who still feel and even think that their current lives are worth more than what they have to gain
looks like an image from the future
Its impressive how efficient we have become at mangling our own planet.
r/AccidentalRenaissance
Looks like something Shin-Ra would build in FF7.
Climate activists are scum
The fuck they think the protesters would even be able to do?
Isengard vibes
I thought this was a scene from a sci-fi movie until I read the caption
Photo looks like it from star wars
The police will always be on the side of capital. ACAB
I was about to ask "what game is that?"
That photo (?) looks like concept art for a post apocalyptic game.
Here’s a surprisingly catchy tune about the machine. I learned it existed from listening to truck tunes with my nephew.
Screw nature, gotta keep making that money!
Just a question. How are they supposed to damage that thing?
If only Germany hadn't canceled it's nuclear power plants and vow allegiance to Russian natural gas. They wouldn't need all the coal..
Bullshit, this is on Mars and they are lying to us.
Protect it?? It looks like a set from Alien! I think the activists and the police are the ones who need protection
they should be protecting humankind from that monster machine
Dune 2
Looks like the new season of "Andor" :D
Ignorant of this machine before seeing this picture: WTF are they excavating?
A lot of coal. The holes they dig are MASSIVE. Look them up on Google maps, this one is a few kilometers left of cologne
Those activists better be careful lest they find themselves demeated.
r/boringdystopia
Purge troopers guard the imperial mining facility on the remote planet of Lutzerath against rebel attacks
This almost looks like a scene from a dystopian movie or game
Thank god Germany isn’t destroying the environment with nuclear power plants 😀
This is a dystopia, truly.
r/ABoringDystopia
How can people support the Climate Activists against the police?
Ray Tracing is on point these days. It's a still image though so we'll probably get 30fps.
What in the sci-fi dystopian is this?
That's called being a mercenary
In other words the police are doing their jobs??? I’m confused are the police supposed to let random groups of protesters destroy whatever they like at will?
Man, what a lucky bucket wheel excavator. I bet it feels safe and protected.
This looks like something out of Star Wars.
If you aren't burning Russian gas you are burning coal.
Is it the motherfuckin BAGGER 288?
Real deal sci-fi dystopia there.
This is a metal album cover
What are they gonna do, Bleed on it?
Probably a stupid question but what do the activists do to THAT thing? Just throw their bodies in front of it?
There is a threat to human kind it is needed to defend against: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azEvfD4C6ow
As a summer intern at the Alberta oil sands I had the opportunity to sit in the cab of a huge bucket wheel excavator (part of our facilities tour). Actually the cab was more like a control room, large enough for a dozen of us to comfortably stand in. My buddy got to actually control the bucket wheel for a minute moving it back and forth with a joystick. I kick myself that I didn't stick my hand up when they offered the chance to drive.
Did some digging. https://i.imgur.com/t93AKXU.jpg Lützerath is still there but Immerath (in blue) is gone
Avatar: 2023
Looks like a doomsday weapon
If the police protects the climate destroyers, who protects then the climate?
Reminds me of that mission in The Force Unleashed when you go back to Felucia and see the destruction the empire is bringing to the environment after you left.
Meanwhile at the Hall of Justice
Welp, the future is officially here.
This is sad
Very Stalenhag
I thought this was a fucken video game cover. Fuck.
This should read that police protect protestors from giant machine. What would they do? I once saw one pick up a dump truck and not even notice. You'd need a tank or two to stop it.
BAGGER 288 BAGGER 288 BAGGER.
It looks like a screenshot from Jedi fallen order
A better picture would be a before vs after
r/playrust has entered the chat.
I would love to see one of these machines in person. This thing literally moves mountains
More like the Police are protecting the protestors from the Bagger 288.
feels Sci-fi
The spice must flow.
Whos gonna protect from the bucket wheel excavator
Looks like a storyboard for a sci fi film.
r/megalophobia
What is this?
I think it might be a Decepticon
Looks like something out of a sci-fi movie. Space-Police protecting launch of the new orbital station from climate activists on the former planet of Lützerathium
thas a big bucket
At first glance I thought this was animated.
We will see how important is nature when the last tree will desepear.
This looks like it's straight out of a Dune movie.
Literally the empire
Isn’t this a screenshot of a destiny level
I had to zoom in and I'm still not sure this isn't a screenshot of game
What dystopian sci-fi movie is this from? Shit looks dope, I wanna watch it
I always wonder what goes through the heads of these people, the enforcers of the state.
Like, there was a paper written about the necessity for this coal to be mined and it was found to be entirely unnecessary and harmful to the climate goals. The politicians who have ties with energy corporations decided to do it anyways. At some point surely you have to ask yourself where the legitimacy comes from for the state to command you to participate in something like this.
Srsly, I would appreciate certain activists way more if they blew up stuff like that instead of glueing themselves on the road. Well, maybe something less heavily guarded that needs a smaller explosion, but still.
Sarducar vibes...
This! Instead of smearing tomato sauce on paintings.
This looks like a half life 3 leaked foootage or something lol
Our politicians are absolute asswipes when it comes to big corporations. Demolishing this town is proven to be unnecessary but in the name of the crisis this greedy shit gets a pass. There are substantial protests in all of the major cities.
That's a Stargate.
Yeah but nuclear reactors killed 99397281 gazillions innocent citizens you see it's just too dangerous, renewables like coal and russian gas is the way to go
r/aboringdystopia
Hpw would they even be able to stop that thing?
Pour sugar into a fuel line. Cut a coolant pipe. Cut a hydraulic line. Light it on fire. Find and cut random wires. It doesn’t take a genius to fuck up a machine this massive, but it would take one to fix it.
I wouldn’t even know what a coolany pipe looks like on such a beast, but I guess it takes a savage to cause reckless abandon.
i sure hope they called the city beforehand to mark where the lines were before they started digging.
Damn cool footage unreal engine 5 sure is something. Cant wait for the release date announcement for this game
Straight out of halo
The picture has a weird 90's sci-fi movie vibe, i love it
Cops have clearly been choosing their side, they are a direct enemy of humanity and destroying these institutions at any cost is merely self defense
Acab
This is what denuclearization looks like.
So much for net zero.
pollution is pollution how do you separate weather its in the air or water? that is a very myopic view.
That’s the world heaviest piece of equipment. It’s like 31560 tons or something like that.
Kind of strange how they say Germany was going to run out of energy for heating and the police have to protect the machine from protestors. Coal’s not great but, I’d prefer to be warm while they figure out other energy solutions.
you can see it from google earth
i dont get how they manage to generate enough torque to turn that thing, let alone do all the other stuff its doing.
This was my favorite piece of machinery when I was a kid. God damnit it’s just so badass
OK made, this sounds realistic to me now!
Can someone explain what are those bucket-wheel-excavator used for exactly? They look mighty
They are excavators, gigantic in scale.If you google "Braunkohleabbau" you will find a lot of pictures and descriptions.
Here in germany they are used by the big corporations in a "Tagebau", thats a gigantic space that gets shoveled away, up to 411 meters deep, kilometers wide. They are processed for coal, then most often filled with water to create an artificial lake or something.
As they are that gigantic, it happens quite often that big forests or even small cities are at future dig-sites. In order for the corp to be able to dig there they ask the government to resettle the town to somewhere else.
Usually it would not be that big of a problem but the energy corporations (namely mostly RWE) is most certainly bribing on a massive scale, giving out management positions to former politicans that ruled in their favor or bribing directly.Its common knowledge, but so systematic in germany that its just eaten up.Nobody of power cares, they all profit some way.
Quite bleak actually, in my youth i thought corruption was an american trait.It aint.
Local media told me that the police are just there to protect protesters from themselves. All is well, state and its media have it under control. 👍
I mean, the lefties wanted strong government and authority we're all supposed to obey, hoping it will only be used for them as they endlessly enjoy being in power. History repeats itself like... every 5 minutes or something.
That thing is dope.
if you look at the streetviews of lützerath i can imagine that it didnt look like a massive garbage dump before they showed up. Atleast try to get rid of the garbage instead of just pouring it onto remaining people's gardens.
Don’t protect it let them run their asses right up on it and try and stop it by hand.
Thought this was star wars
German activists truly are a nuisance.
Suppose they prefer dealing with Russia.
Fuck the european people, as long as a particular bird breed is doing fine.
Germany is a complete joke. They are still completely committed to coal burning instead of investing in alternatives.
That's not true, but it takes time to transition and it is not that easy. Solar power is way less effective, as there is not a huge amount of sun and wind power can only be implemented in some places. But getting rid of coal is already decided.
We do both. 🤡
[deleted]
Ensuring that people who want to peacefully protest can do so, while not destroying private property at the same time, are compatible interests.
It’s called a civil society with protected liberty interests, beholden to the rule of law instead of the mob
I really do I feel bad for the German people the country has never been run right. If it’s not a fascist dictator it’s a fascist globalist running the country into the ground.
Globalist is a dog whistle for jews bro. 💀
Get used to it. Between shutting down nuclear and Russian gas Germany will be using even more coal for the foreseeable future.
We won't. PV as well as on- & offshore wind is getting built like crazy. We don't even need that coal.
nope, there's a study proving that the coal under that village is not needed to secure Germany's energy supply. it's just about defending the profits of a large company, nothing else.
Climate terrorists?
It’s amazing how many people here condone terrorism. Not liking something doesn’t mean you can go and destroy stuff. Activists should come with a proposal for the better, not just pure destruction and sabotage.
They have, but you don't read it.
It's not like people, activists, scientists, politicians etc. have been making proposals since 50 odd years. The first Club of Rome report was publishes in 1972 and that club is not really suspicious of any form of radicalism and extremism.
[deleted]
1312
Yep Food comes from the grocery store, gas comes from the gas station, and electricity from the plug in the wall, Thomas Edison invented it and it's been there ever since.
from terrorists*
Look AI generated in midjourney
That excavator has value , these climate activist don’t .
Put them all in jail 6 months, that will slow their roll.
🤡
soyboys can not broke up this machine. Does not have enough strength to do that
Are we going to discuss the fact that this is a blatantly manipulated image? Look at the size of the ladder guard and walkway in the middle of the wheel relative to the people in the foreground. This is fake.
it's not. This is the type of excavator used: https://youtu.be/6grkscnUHoI?t=11
Look at the ladder and catwalk compared to the people in the foreground. The perspective has been manipulated to make the machine look even larger than it is.
the machine is only about 20 meters behind the police officers, the scale looks completely correct to me
There is almost no change in the apparent size of the ladder, so the perspective is distorted. Even at 20 meters there should be a notable difference in apparent size between the people in front and the person-sized ladder guard on the machine. The ladder guard would typically only be maybe 1.5 meters long, and assuming the people in the foreground are each 2 meters tall the apparent size of the ladder guard looks to be about 1.25 meters.
[deleted]
Sorry, what trees are you referring to? The picture was taken last night at the protests that are currently happening
those aren't trees, that's just dirt. https://twitter.com/marius_mich/status/1610708837463474183/photo/2
so we just continue to call them "climate activists"?
That's what they are. You may also call them based though.
ACAB
See you in r/all
Climate activists should have a bath.
Just like your mom.
Was your mom a nazi?
[deleted]
Oh no! Vielflieger-Louisa is gonna hate that :(
We are going electric people, gotta get those rare earth metals somehow.
It's a coal mine.
Has anyone linked philosophy tube yet? If not: obligatory MASSIVEN KRIMINELLEN GEWALTTATEN!!!
Climate activists are the dumbest fucks out there. At least the ones who feel like they have to destroy priceless artifacts of history.
So the climate activists are basically are a domestic terrorist group in Germany
No?
This image screams The New Order
Greta must be around somewhere crying like a baby!
I only see you.
First climate activists and die Grüne shut down nuclear power. Then the energy sector turns to coal and brown coal. What the fuck are ALL of those people thinking?
Not really: First the Greens and the Sozial Democrats phase out nuclear and later coal, but with a clear path to renewable energy and usage of natural gas as a transitional energy source. The energy companies have a lot of time to shut down and build back their heavily subsidised reactors with the money they had to lay back for this purpose.
A few years later the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives turn back the wheel and stop the nuclear phase out. Not that someone wants to build new reactors, this is much too expensive. But the available energy kills the planned natural gas plants.
Then, after Fukushima, Merkel decides that this wasn't such a bad deal afterall and resumes the phase out, this time to much worse conditions for the tax payer. Of course while still sabotageing the transition to decentral green energy by cutting subsidies an introducing crippling bureaucracy.
Thanks for making this clear. Most people only remember things that happened yesterday and nothing more.
The Greens didn't hold enough power to do this. CDU did this to both appease public opinion and jack of their big oil masters at the same time.
Because the people protesting now where the same people back then? Maybe don't talk when you don't know shit bro. 💀
German police became secret evil corporation.
Always has been.
These climate activists need to change their approach and look at how Martin Luther king and the civil rights movement changed their way of fighting against the powers that be. These protests aren’t going to do anything useful.
huh maybe should've stuck with the nuclear power
Because the people protesting now where the same people back then? Maybe don't talk when you don't know shit bro. 💀
shame
If you're a climate activist and don't know what Monkey wrenching is, I'd highly recommend looking at it 😉
[deleted]
Because the people protesting now where the same people back then? Maybe don't talk when you don't know shit bro. 💀
Yeah... Germany is only a little less retardet than Australia, the UK and the US when it comes to climate change policies, how can you let this happen on your soil in 2023 you wormy little shits
Germany doesn't want coal, they don't want nuclear but they protest against wind power and large solar fields as well. I guess their mobiles are charged with magical fairy dust.
Gives off distinct stormtrooper vibes. I wonder what those policemen think of themselves.
This is what I can get behind climate activists destroying .
Stop sitting in traffic and throwing soup on paintings you cunts and be brave and demolish this thing.
Now I'll glue myself to you, cunt.
will never believe that a single green party in any country isn't just in the pocket of big oil.
What are the activists going to do, steal it?
I'll glue myself to it.
Exactly what is a climate activist going to do to this monster of a machine?
Glue himself to the bucket?
Yes.
Seems like problem solved then, becoming fertilizer and removing yourself as a resource consumer is the most active thing one can do.
How else are we supposed to get the lithium for all these batteries?
It's a coal mine bro ..
Police serve corporate interes.
You mean climate terrorists.
fuck i miss eco-terrorists
I wonder if the climate activists are also anti-nuclear?
Because the people protesting now where the same people back then?
where is greta??!? lol
Living rent-free in your head.
you say that as if it were an insult, buts its not lol. but yeah... after all that bs advertisments when she was a legally a child, everyone used her. now that she's an adult, nobody want to use her cause everyone knows that shes full of bs...
r/aboringdystopia
Police serve not to protect citizens, but to protect capital, private property and its owners.
This looks dystopian... because it is.
Lützerath Unräumbar! We must stand in solidarity with all peoples putting their bodies on the line for climate justice! In my own case, currently, I have a second court date coming up in two weeks related to the Teterboro Airport Protest.
Beat down those vandals!
Don't lie to me. I know they're protecting the people. Preventing them from getting too close to that bloodthirsty machine, too close to that massive steel leviathan with blades covered in gore!
Bagger 288! Bagger 288!
"And every politician, every cop on the street
Protects the interests of the pedophilic corporate elite" - Socko
I think it should be the other way around : The German police should be protecting the climate activists from the bucket-wheel excavator 🙂
Fuck the police hope the protesters get through
Why it’s the police at fault? Point towards our countries being overdependent on such ressources.
Anyone with a brain knows we need to move to renewable energy, as quickly as possible. But I’m sorry, some of the climate activists in Europe are going to set us back decades with how foolish they are acting. They look like maniacs and are giving on the fence people a reason to think climate change is only something blue haired idiots who throw paint at the Mona Lisa believe in. Europe has to keep using fossil fuels while it transitions to clean energy. There is no option unless you think a large portion of the population should forego heat in the winter. Support policy that promotes clean energy transition, stop acting like children, and stop giving clean energy and environmental science a bad name.
many german research institutions and universities have actually determined that the coal under lützerath is not necessary for energie security. In fact the coal under the village is enough to bust the German climate goals all on its own. This is why the activists are fighting, the science supports them
sources are only in german unfortunately
https://www.diw.de/documents/publikationen/73/diw_01.c.819609.de/diwkompakt_2021-169.pdf
https://vpro0190.proserver.punkt.de/s/BDMjKcqrwHW4nsK
True r/LeopardsAteMyFace for the activists.
Activists: "We don't want nuclear!"
Germany: "Ok we'll shut it down" *switches to coal*
Activists: *surprised pikachu face*
It's almost scary how big that machine is.
I used to take the Autobahn between Aachen and Düsseldorf and it passes near Garzweiler where the baggers are.
Pictures don't do justice to those behemoths, even if they are on the horizon line, they look absolutely almighty. And in front of them, there is a gigantic hole.
They're way bigger than it appears on any picture.
I'm in awe near those machines, they're an incredible sight to behold, a marvel of mechanics, yet they're responsible of some of the most revolting ecological disaster one can see.
Growing up in a city nearby really distorts your perception. In New Zealand a local showed me the Martha Mine, to show me how huge and terrible it is. I was like... that's... tiny. Did they just start? Seeing destruction ten times the size other people call terrible on a regular basis does something with you..
[deleted]
That would be really funny :D But it was in 2014. So maybe more than a few years already.
1990 was just recently and nothing you can say will change that! Desperate screeching
Not every German woman lives near Garzweiler
[deleted]
To be fair, the population distribution is bizarre for the Rhineland considering North Rhine Westphalia has 22% of Germany's population with only 10% of the Land.
Same here, I used to pass by there twice a week for a year and these machines are incredibly large. There really isn't anything in life that's comparable big other then for example an apartment block. So imagine you live in an apartment that's 7 meters wide, that block should be 30 apartments long (2 football fields) and it's 40 floors up. It's absolutely massive.
On a strip mine near me we had an drag line, thing was HUGE, biggest machine i ever seen (in person). They’re done mining up there and let people ride atvs around. They still have a few broken down machines on site (like a dumptruck and a few others) been years since i went up there.
They’re either gonna turn it into an atv park or some military thing or so i hear, nothing definitive. They moved the drag line to another country though
"they're responsible of some of the most revolting ecological disaster one can see."
They also play a part in enabling modern first world living too though.
Played. Past tense.
We still do and will always need raw materials.
We can’t afford it anymore, though. People suffer and die already from climate crisis
Of course mining that coal is spiraling towards a disaster, but there is no alternative at this point in Germany. There was one before Germany decided to close down nuclear reactors. But without that, fossil fuel is the only alternative and it is not reasonable to except Germans to give up their standard of living because some people die elsewhere.
Blame the antinuclear movement for what is happening because it is their fault.
Nuclear energy would be nice, if the reactors weren’t 40 years old and if there was a safe way of storing the waste. And I don’t understand how people in Germany didn’t notice the heat waves in the last years (completely with low water flows, wildfires and several thousand deaths) and the flood two years ago and that it has temperatures over 10 degrees C now in january
They can safely operate for 80 years.
There is. The amount of really bad stuff is minimal and can easily be stored in a warehouse indefinitely.
I do agree with the remainder of your comment though.
Are some of these still in use then?
Sadly, yes.
Yes, here is the plan of the mine.
I'm pretty sure the picture is from Lützerath as this village must be abandoned by 10th of January to be destroyed.
EDIT: I'm dumb it says so in the picture caption...
Dude I was at the F60 and the scale of that thing is incredible. Its 20m shorter than this bagger, but twice as long and wide. My mind could not believe what I`m seeing. I highly recommend visiting it if you`re ever around Dresden.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overburden_Conveyor_Bridge_F60
I was there as well, it's an incredible sight. Nowadays the area is used for festivals and watching light's go off of this steel behemoth is just something else.
Should be Ferropolis?
Edit:Honorable mentions for festivals as far as i can remember: Splash, With Full Force, Melt!
Edit2: Seems to be a different "thing" than the F60. Still a great location for festivals.
Well there are also festivals happening at F60 too. Also some light art exhibitions. I was bit sad that I missed it by few days...I was visiting both only during daylight, but having a techno or drum n bass party there must be bonkers.
Can recommend the feel festival, it's like a smaller, slightly more commercial fusion. (Still 14 stages or so)
Didn't know that, thanks for enlightening me.
I have watched the Pyrogames (fireworks competition) at the F60 three times now, it's always pretty great.
Ferropolis - what a venue!! Was there for Melt festival 2018, great times
just make rolling fuck already
Don't use apostrophes when you pluralize things.
Your link is borked.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overburden_Conveyor_Bridge_F60
link for old reddit
Why are they refusing to fix this... I guess cause they want to make old reddit as inconvenient as possible.
I thought it was an issue with Wikipedia - is it Reddit then that's rendering these links with the backslashes?
There are two different text box systems. Old reddit uses markdown and new reddit is more modern with helper buttons for formatting. They format the link differently and they never bothered to fix it. Possibly intentionally..
I think you misspelled Probably.
Probably even "Most likely"
Most likely even "oh.. Fo sho"
Only thing is, once old reddit is unusable, I'm gone. The new design is terrible and I hate apps for browsing web sites.
New reddit doesn't use markdown???
Fancy Pants?
When everybody's marching in the fancy pants parade
Although it only happens if the link is added at the end of the comment. If you add anything else after the link, special characters are not being escaped.
Yes, they render it with backslashes, but removes them on new reddit. I guess it's a way to inconvenience people into using the unusable shitty new reddit ¯\(ツ)/¯
Those are my cold dead ones
When old.reddit.com stops working, I leave. New reddit is AIDS.
I would love to know the percentage of people who use old.reddit vs the new Reddit. I wonder if it’s actually a lot of people or just a vocal minority using old.reddit.
FWIW, I’m in the same boat as you; the day they get rid of old.reddit is the last day I use this website.
Just as a heads up there is a setting in preferences to default to old reddit. There is also a setting to add daggers next to controversial comments.
Ooh that old.reddit setting is great Intel. Thank you
To be honest I wish they just would, could easily find better things to do with a little nudge.
I'd still use Apollo but yeaaa desktop would be no go
It's a vocal minority. Any moderator of a popular sub will tell you the vast majority of users are either using apps or new Reddit.
Mobile reddit too. Sync is the way. Asked me if i wanted it to fix the janky link before leaving the app to wikipedia.
Official Reddit app is beyond cancerous
old reddit still way better even with the odd broken link
I think you mean "usable reddit"
And also the correct link for any actual browser. New Reddit generates unusable broken links that only New Reddit can parse.
How much you think this bad boy costs?
Well that was incredible. Thank you.
No, old reddit is what screwed up the link in the first place. You fixed it for new reddit users. Thanks!
The new reddit/old reddit divide widens (this link syntax is one example)
Oh, it's a new reddit thing. Thanks, admins.
Typical Reddit, find something functional. Fuck it up.
This is 100% on purpose. Make old reddit inconvenient until people are forced to switch
the new reddit is the most bloated, overburdened, trash heap of javascript excuse for a modern website I've ever seen. An affront to software development, and a UX orders of magnitude worse than old reddit with RES. The day they force me to use new reddit is the day I stop using this site.
Same here. They removed so much functionality. Even on desktop the useful screen real estate got reduced by like 80% lmao. I can only see about 5 comments or 2 posts per page
It's to uNiFy tHe MoBiLE eXpErIenCE tHouGH???!?!?!!
Jokes on them I'll use any number of third-party Reddit apps before I will use their own app or access their site from the browser especially since they force that pop up now that asks you to use the official Reddit app every time you try to view the mobile site from your phone.
Apollo, Reddit is fun and Sync for Reddit are much better than their app or their site in any browser.
they're as bad and aggressive as Yelp at this point
I worked front of house at a restaurant and we would get Yelp calling about once a week asking for money talking about moving the positive reviews to the top and what not. Just another scum sucking business like the better business bureau trying to make money off of other companies by introducing a fake market. In case you didn't know the BBB is just a scam they have no legal authority whatsoever and no business is required to be a part of them.
This. Very much all of what's in this comment.
See, I'm a masochist who was on reddit before there was a good app (at least one to my liking) and just got used to desktop reddit on mobile, so my mobile and desktop experiences have been unified for almost a decade.
Jokes on then: I still use i.reddit.com
Only use old.reddit.com on desktop, and use any app but theirs on mobile.
Thankful I don't have to have an iPhone to feel good about myself.
Apollo on iOS and Reddit is Fun or Sync for Reddit on Android work much better than the browser on mobile devices. It's easy to post, cross post, edit, insert pictures, gifs or save files. They also have their own media players for every file type you could come across allowing you to easily save or share any type of media. Card view and dark/black themes are fantastic on all three. I would definitely recommend them over visiting Reddit in a browser or especially with the official Reddit app.
I'll use Apollo on my phone if I need it - don't like that reddit links don't open with the app, probably a way to change that - but I generally don't use reddit unless I'm on a desktop or laptop computer
God I'd hate to use the browser or official app, RiF is a bit of a pain when it comes to crossposting.
He, the divide in action
My reddit account is older than the redesign, but I only started using reddit once the redesign went live ^^
/r/RedReader for an elegant, fast, simple and open source clone on Android. Been using it for years and literally can't bring myself to use the reddit site itself these days.
This is why I actually prefer to browse from my phone now. Apollo is great. Vote from both sides, save with a slide, screw up and go back to top of feed. Double tap and it scrolls back to where you were. Pause and scroll gifs frame by frame.
Just get RES and it'll be like old Reddit never left. Occasionally it'll not load by default and I'll get freaked out by this foreign, strange design and unusuable UX
Good thing I use the Sync for Reddit app which just fixes this for you.
They did something similar by forcing the prompt to open the official Reddit app when you go to Reddit from browser. They also removed the check mark from the settings which used to allow you to turn off that pop-up.
More and more companies use annoying little things like this to get you to use their app that way they have more control over your device and your personal data. The last thing I want an anonymous comment forum to have is access to my device and personal data.
How do you not have a functional fucking video player in 2023? For fucks sake, this is one of the largest platforms on the god damn planet
Links have always been goofed up on Reddit. The slash character is used the escape character for formatting so you can write a multiple * symbols without turning the text into italics for example. The comment box reads the links as having an escape character and so it ignores the next character in the link, thus borking it. So they aren’t breaking old.Reddit, they are just refusing to implement the fix from new Reddit into it. Which is probably intentional, yes, but also they aren’t really maintaining old Reddit so from their perspective why take time going back and fixing a dead version whose corpse they are leaving out if you want to keep it.
Utterly intentional.
You're welcome bud!
Other way around. Old reddit adds the unnecessary backslashes
you can fix it (in your browser) by changing
to
Hey reddit: no \ allowed in URLs. Thanks
[deleted]
Nice! That works well
I know we hate those backslashes but that's a bad solution
Reddit did it on purpose to fuck with old.reddit users.
I kind of wish they just removed the old stuff.
If I can't switch I might be able to stop using it.
Only running redditisfun on my phone is enough distraction.
Feel the same, but with Apollo
I can't, but the poster can fix it
I meant in your URL / address bar
Both links work on Apollo.
Link works fine with RES and Rif.
Sync for
Reddit FTW.
I'm sorry, but how can it be 20 meters shorter and twice as long?
Bad choice of words on my part, sorry. What I meant is that F60 is 20 meters shorter in height than Bagger 293 (on the picture).
So, 20 meters lower?
Short is the antonym of both long and tall. A long road vs a short road, a tall person vs a short person.
Yes, which is why using a hight specific word to describe the change in height is preferable, when talking about all three dimensions.
Otherwise you could end up with someone correctly describing an item as 20 meters shorter, 2 meters shorter and 3 meters shorter. As you can probably already see, this do not make much sense, while 20 meter shorter, 2 meters lower and 3 meters slimmer makes perfect sense.
20m lower implies the whole object is physically 20m lower. English has some flawed words occasionally, much like how languages like Japanese use tall and expensive interchangeably.
It's simply an ambiguous phrase, where you determine the meaning through context. Using context, it's clear the "shorter" referred to height, not length.
Ah, okay. English is a second language for me. Thank you for explaining it!
No worries! It is ambiguous, so without checking the whole idea you wouldn't know. The way you wrote it is....fine? It's just using some very awkward English. You could say shorter front-to-back to clarify, but slimmer and lower are more esoteric choices for describing an object.
That might be because the Danish equivalent words fit that usage much better. The word lavere (lower) is both elevation and relative size, which given the context can only be the latter. Smallere (slimmer) referees only to the width of an object.
Are those words not often used to describe relative size differences?
Lower is usually to refer to relative location, rather than size. "That chair seat is lower to the ground" doesn't mean the chair is smaller, it means it physically has the seat lower to the ground. "The ceiling is lower" is talking less about the height of the room, and more the physical location of the ceiling, so using it as an adjective for an object's size is valid, but not commonly used.
As I said, the English you used was valid, it's just phrased awkwardly to a native speaker. Slimmer and narrower mean the same thing, but are used in different contexts. It's perfectly valid, it just feels weird to describe the dimensions as 20m slimmer. It can be slimmer, but it is 20m more narrow, or 20m skinnier.
Okay, thank you.
Just out of curiosity, which native English do you speak?
I'm from Canada, which has some distinct turns of phrase compared to the US, but most word choices are similar between the two.
What amazes me, too, is that someone or some people sat down and figured out how to make those machines a reality, down to the very last bolt. And the old monster machines' blueprints were drafted by hand without computers.
Just saw this posted a couple hours ago, trench digger or chainsaw I think was the title.
These are the kinds of things future humans will find half buried in the wasteland and wonder what sort of monster it was. 'And here we have the skeletal remains of some large earth creature, we think it may have been an elephant.
Your link is broken. I don't know why reddit is inserting those backslashes lately.
I live in Dresden and had never heard of it. I will definitely go visit it!
I used to work in the open pit coal mine in Australia, they have dragline excavators those things are ridiculous, I image what a dinosaur must look like
f 60 is more than 500 meters long
IDK what the F60 is, but back in the early 90s, I worked on the giant drag line bucket loader in Fairfield, TX at the Big Brown mine. The thing was 795 ft long and the operator cabin was sat at 29t ft in the air. The bucket was big enough for a 4dr Ford F250 to be able to make a 360° turn. It rode on a total of ~1290 tread pads in two different sizes.
It was my job to repair those pads when the machine moved.
I wonder what happened to these machines in the Mad Max World...Like what gang is operating this thing.
Here in Ohio we have the bucket of a similar machine on display at a park near an old excavation site. You could probably fit 3 or 4 cars in the bucket alone, so it really gives you a sense of the true scale of it.
I where there too , when you jump in that little house at The end of the F60 it starts swinging around
They just left the machine there in-situ to rust away? Doesn’t seem very “green”.
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Without checking the link, Bagger 288 on youtube?
EDIT: Its a bingo ...
We just say Bingo
How fun!
I DECLARE BINGO
I DECLARE BANCRUPTCY!
That's gunna be a big fat Bingo-rino, buddy!
Love the bastards reference
Takes me back when I used to watch weird flash animations from rathergood. The Internet was so much more fun before companies sanitised it to be advertiser friendly.
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I loved b3ta and rathergood. I was hoping someone would post this link🤣
I think that unfortunately people ran out of creativity. At the time it was easy to create things because computers gave people access to completely new artistic techniques. You could just do totally random shit and bam it's a new creation. But this couldn't last long: at some point all obvious ideas were tried out, and each day it started getting harder to actually invent new stuff with existing tools.
Sorry, but this is a really shit take. People did not run out of creativity. They ran out of places to express their creativity freely because the Internet has become dominated by large, corporate-run sites that exist to collect advertising dollars, not spread creative content.
The creativity came from the waiting time the modem needed to dial in and the waiting time the 56k line needed to open the webpage. All glory to those AOL CD's with 50 free minutes of internet bundled with a ton of shareware for creativity purposes and pirating. /s
Today everything is instant and already there.
In retrospective the AOL chat was cancer filled with a lot of weirdos, with the knowledge of today i would have called the cops on them.
Bring that shit back, I am a part of the weirdo club hahaha
I don't think it's lack of creativity. Early internet content while creative was low production quality. You can still find a lot of this kind of content but it's buried under mainstream commercialized copy pasted crap that is unoriginal. Money lies in tested formulas and the internet is no longer catering to the same audience. Early days it was filled with geeks and nerds of all sorts, now it's general population that shifted from mindlessly watching TV to mindlessly watching tiktok. The internet was fun until smartphones became a thing and social media really kicked off.
Hard disagree. There are a ton of creative people making content out there that nobody will ever see because they don't properly get hooked into the controlled algorithms that are used to spoonfeed people content.
they did not. what happens it's that the new internet doesn't want creativity.
they want an sterile internet with only family friendly content and everything is heavily monitorized as well as censored, even reddit it's like that nowadays.
The last time I felt that way was early vine days. Then vine influencers came in really quick and it dissipated.
> egomedia
Check out /r/EIM early internet media. Dead subreddit but a good short browse
One of the top post there is “things I hate about tinder” posted 8 years ago like most of the content. It’s crazy to me that tinder is over 8 years old.
Guess how old Bitcoin is.
That one I more distinctly remember. It was a bit after high school when I was playing wow. I remember that because k was tempted to try and mine some when I wasn’t home but decided it wasn’t worth the effort. I consul myself in the fact that I would have sold out when it hit 100 or so.
14?
I mean sure but on the other hand there was also stuff like the jailbait subreddit
It's what people asked for? Reddit hates non sanitized content.
All that shit is still there and more is being made every day. This isn’t a “back in my day people weren’t so sensitive” moment, grandpa.
You act like they don't use black patterns to milk you attention. It's not the same because they need constant content and user engagment and it has absolutely nothing to do with people being sensitive or not.
Sure but internet culture at large has long moved past those types of crude, gonzo meme vids. It’s like jazz. Yeah, it still exists but nobody pays any attention to it.
Ouch. Why you gotta throw shade at jazz?
Tastes change, agreed. I roll my eyes at the idea that “corporations” are responsible for scrubbing “all your base are belong to us” off the Internet. Or badger badger.
Haha man you have no idea. Back in the day you could find red rooms on the normal web. Forums were also fucked by random links to gore. Wordfilters were completely rudimentary.
That's the site that had those ugly animal-shaped singing things, right?
Something like that
companies been ruining shit for 200 years
During a simpler time when I was checking potato canons videos and fantasizing about doing one!
This is reminiscent of old internet, the best internet.
Very few of us will ever know what the internet was like before smartphones.
Damn, never thought of that.
I remember 😭
I will never forget the old Lego websites...
Probably damn near everyone under 45-50 and over 25 in developed nations remembers.
Hey, that's me!
Not really, the time before smartphones very few people used the internet compared to now. And most of them just stuck to AOL and didn't know about anything else.
I honestly don't know anyone who wasn't using the internet after about 1997 or so. Maybe if you were in some rural area or spent the majority of your time on niche areas of the internet it would seem that way, but saying very few know what the internet was like before 2007 is ridiculous.
The clown blocked me. What that link doesn't show is "very few people" using the internet before 2007.
It's pretty funny how many people like to come out on reddit and just share their feelings based opinions.
https://itu.foleon.com/itu/measuring-digital-development/internet-use
Not reminiscent, rathergood IS old internet. Old as balls.
I would have been really suprised if no one had shared that :D
The fuck did I just do with 2 minutes of my life?
Started truly living.
Good to start truly living before the bagger 288 comes for you
You became one of todays lucky 10.000, apparently.
welcome to the internet my young friend
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj3S4ryAKyE
You experienced peak german culture
Does this explain why my entire German side of the family only talks about the endless details of equipment they buy and any time they hear a joke they get angry and need it explained and still argue “but it doesn’t make sense! They said x when they didn’t mean x, they meant y! They should have said y if they meant y! It’s not right, this is stupid!”. W in T absolute F is up with German culture?
The best thing you'll do all day.
Same, but the next two minutes I will spend in learning this song…for m’ladies.
Witnessed art.
You've taken your first step into a larger world.
Thank you for keeping this blessing alive
De-meated.
I had the honor of visiting the mine where the 288 is located and was able to take a tour of that machine.
No video can show you how insanely big the machine is really.
So the police are really just helping to protect the protestors from being de-meated?
Imagine accidentally super glueing yourself to one of those buckets.
Beelzebub now super glues himself to Bagger 288
For all of our planets riches will soon be depleted
This was exactly what I was looking for in the comments. Soon as I saw the image, sparkly little piano chimes started in my head. Beelzebub himself now fears the bagger 288
Came here for this piece of nostalgia
It's amazing and all but what does it do? I mean apart from being frightening
The Bagger 288 is there to safeguard all mankind
Safe guard it does. I am sure even Megatron would think twice
It's a mountain moving machine. That giant "blade" is actually a wheel with rotating buckets meant to move massive amounts of rock. Also, there are different types, not just the bagger 288, but the song was made about 288 😅 the image may be a different one though
Puts earth from the ground (mostly coal) onto trucks.
that was .... rathergood.
Knew it before i klicked. Old but gold.
Back to the B3ta days
simply amazing
thank you
Thank you
Damn the Grimes track in that vid is a deeep cut. Haven’t heard it since seeing her perform live at a waste transfer station in Halifax in ‘08 😩🪐🧝♀️🤟
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Now that you mentioned it, I think this thing would make an awesome Lego set.
Scaled down, hopefully.
[deleted]
I hadn't initially considered that option, but yeah I think having the compartments actually changes everything.
Here are some search terms for you:
giant bucket wheel excavator
Bagger 288
Thanks for the laughs mate! Vielen dank!
Meh, I counter with this.
https://youtu.be/DDgvtrQyuPY
I have heard this no less than 1,000 times.
That was so beautiful
that.. was amazing. thanks
Came here for this.
Any time I have to deal with PMS 288, I think of this. <3
What is it with people putting the absolute worst, most godawful music over cool videos lmao
I forgot how many random animal clips are in that video.
I feel honored that i have a kitchen robot "krupp" from like 20 years ago, and still works.
What the actual F...!?
This thing is what I imagine when Alastair Reynolds writes about the moving cathedrals in Absolution Gap.
And this picture is taken from a distance with a telelens so you have a lot of optical compression going on
Only a bit: https://twitter.com/marc_brln/status/1610727908225449993
I love that song. It's in my playlist. That man's voice is magical, and AnnenMayKantereit inspired me to learn German Deutsche so I can sing along to their songs and enjoy Dark more.
Very true and something people need to be aware of, but this still is a crazy huge machine. For real.
If people say "but renewables take so much mining to build", they should take a look at this thing.
And the freaking holes they dig.
These baggers are straight out of the warhammer 40k playbook and they turn landscapes into 40k terra.
Just to illustrate your point: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Surface_Mining_Hambach_200800806.jpg
Holy shit
Here's a different shot:
https://i0.wp.com/skipperkongen.dk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Screen-Shot-2018-03-14-at-12.44.04.png?w=1964&ssl=1
And that's from 2018, I believe it got bigger since then.
Rip Nujabes
<3
The pits are also visible on relief maps. Image from Wikipedia, with useful orange circle ^(please excuse the useless borders). It's ridiculous.
Couple of years ago I was driving to Frankfurt when suddenly right next to the highway M A S S I V E - H O L E.
Alright Germany, do your thing. But why dig hole on our beaches while holidaying when you already dig greater hole at home?
yea the hole thing seems weird
Look at Google maps. Just write Germany and you will find their holes pretty quick.
Damn thought that was OPs mom for a second
Example: Senftenberg Lake. Its artificial.
Ok, Imma google 'German holes' and I'll get back to you.
I just did and you notice the ones in East Germany a lot more than the one pictured above.
Are they not required to push the top soil back after the ore has been processed?
If you look at gold mines in North America for example and they're more than like 30 years old, nature has perfectly reclaimed the area. They're required to basically reset the mine back to how it was before they mined it. It leaves a wasteland for a little while, but it recovers quickly.
If they aren't required to do that, it's a serious environmental problem.
Nope.
First of all, there used to be towns/villages there, including historical ones. Those cannot be restored. The people were resettled and the towns destroyed. This is also what the picture in the OP is about. They are about to destroy yet another town and police is protecting the machines against protesters.
Second, nope, no top soil, no restoration of nature. The plan is to turn it into a giant artificial lake. They want to let water from the rhine flow into the hole for 70 years and call it a day. So.. yeah, by 2100 we'll have the hole filled with water and hope nothing else goes wrong. (hint: the glaciers that feed the rhine are vanishing due to climate change, which led to the thing running almost dry last year, which looked like this: https://image.geo.de/32622262/t/Xs/v2/w1440/r1.5/-/trockener-rhein---pa-291263042.jpg picture taken from within the rhine)
Thats bogus. The complete eastern part of Tagebau Garzweiler will be filled again, only about 1/3 of the area will be turned into a lake.
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagebau_Garzweiler#Bergbaufolgelandschaft
A lot of it has been filled already. So much in fact, that an Autobahn has been constructed right through it. Also, the plan is for the mines to be filled until 2060, not 2100. I too doubt that that target can be met with falling water levels in the rhine (at it is not ecological useful to do this, none of it is), but saying that nothing is going to be filled is wrong. Of course the burned coal volume cannot be filled again.
The article states that only the western part will be turned into a lake, so I stand corrected there, thanks. However, it also says that beginning 2030 it will be filled with water from the rhine for 70 years. That still gets me to roughly 2100.
How do I buy 2100 lake front real estate for my great grandkids?
Ew... That is not encouraging :(
Honestly I have no idea; I think big parts of the mines are still very much in use either directly for mining for as ramps for those huge excavators.
Damn wind turbines messing up our beautiful landscape! /s
They kill a lot of birds, including those going extinct. Not as bad as solar farms, though. That said, razing the land, especially places like the rain forests are going to bite us humans in the ass.
They do indeed kill quite a few, but as that article shows, there are ways to work on those numbers.
Now bird deaths by cars, on the other hand, is something i never see anyone talk about after mentioning that wind turbines shred so many innocent birds.
I wonder why.
People seem more concerned with the emissions.
What emissions? from production of wind turbines?
I'm just going to keep pointing at the automotive industry.
Emissions from cars.
That is one depressing picture.
Damn, that pisses me off.
dont worry they plan to just have the Rhein fill it when its done, sure cant go wrong
They also destroy churches that are in the way of coal, not sure if it fits the setting.
Great Crusade Era then, The Big E had a strong anti religion policy (Cult of the Mechanicum was and still is an exception though).
We've totally lost ourselves. Humans suck
The worst thing is that they destory historical towns that have been there for hundreds of years now and resettle the people living their.
They get compensated and so on, but it's still disgusting
Yeah never understand that argument as well
Because nearly all of those arguments are in bad faith to cover their unwillingness to stop destroying the world for profit.
Never expected a good take from someone with Ayn Rand in their username
It's a joke account, figure a frankenstein's hydra of Ayn Rand, Rand Paul, and Paul Ryan.
The beast of Objectiva
Oh, lol. I guess I missed that. Still, based.
Honestly it wasn't a very good joke to begin with but then my normal account got banned from 60% of where I reddit in 2016-17 so now I'm stuck with this one...
Rand Paul exposes corruption, so he's not too bad in my book.
Bad faith, laziness and incuriousness
And the whole "we can't afford net zero". Like, do you know how much effort money and science we've put into digging resources out of the ground? Even if it's miles beneath the sea?
I'm sure if we diverted that skill and knowledge to fixing problems we would be able to do something
Don't forget "but how do you dispose of the wind turbines and solar panels after they've reached their end of life in like 10 years? What a lot of garbage". Never mind this mindbogglingly huge amount of coal that all turns into piles of waste and toxic clouds of waste every single day. Or the fact that solar panels and wind turbines last much longer than 10 years.
They take a lot, but it’s early days and still less than what’s required than the fossil status quo.
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That's not the argument anti-renewable people use.
Is this the one that accidentally grabbed up a pick up truck and revealed how really big it is?
All I can find is one that picked up a bulldozer. But I swear I remember seeing one where a pick up was entirely in a bucket.
that's insane, lol. Hope there was no driver in it tho. Also how do you even go about fixing that? You probably need to set up a whole ass crane to get it off there.
More like police is protecting the activists from getting themselves killed by that beast
You only see a very little part of the machine. It's enormous
https://www.spd-ryo.de/wp-content/uploads/sites/290/2019/05/kohle-bagger-900x600.jpg
Edit: Cars for scale
Largest land vehicle in the world. Width of three 747 jets.
ah I see someone saw that Europe from above documentary
Lol literally the night before this post. I wanted to link the video but couldn't find it on youtube
Also, this pic looks super apocalyptic.
If you're in the US, you can still visit some similar machines from mining days of old. They are truly mind boggling big and look like they're out of a futuristic-fantasy show.
Here's one in southeast Kansas.
And that thing ways 4200kgs.
The Bagger 293 comes in at more than 14000kg
r/megalophobia
Almost????
What do you mean "almost"?
r/megalophobia
well it's there to dig through the whole landscape... For coal that probably won't even be used anymore...
Move it to the pandora to get unobtainium.
Looks like guys standing in front of an Elden Ring screen shot.
There’s videos/photos of it being moved out there. It looks even stranger when you have other recognisable items in scale with it.
/r/megalophobia
Almost? I'm already scared
They’re so large that they’re put together on site and usually blown up and scrapped once the job is complete
This one wasn't.
They have wheels because they have to be able to move within the mining area. I can’t remember where I read it but the article stated the price to disassemble, transport and reassemble costs more than it would to bring a new one in.
That was a while ago, I’ll admit. So things could have changed
Did you click the link?
Yes
How do you know it's the same one? There is more than one of those monstrosities.
You couldn't see my hand, but I was pointing at the one I was linking to, not the one in the OP.
Not almost. That machine terrifies me. Makes me want to crawl out of my skin.
Imagine a protestor laying down in front of it, expecting the operator to notice and stop it.
The protestor would just disappear. This thing eats through rock like nothing, and at a massive scale. There would be basically no trace of the body.
What is it mining for?
I believe brown coal
nothing stops the bagger 288
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azEvfD4C6ow
Like, what could anybody possibly do to that machine? You practically require military artillery to even damage it.
Pull the plug!
It is scary how big it is. Thank goodness it moves slowly.
r/megalophobia
Yeah, I think it can protect itself.
We were down in one of those open surface mines with a school bus when we were in elementary school.
Imagine standing at the base and looking up. And being have the size you're now.
There’s a community for you: r/megalophobia
https://youtu.be/azEvfD4C6ow
Bavarian Pretzels need rare earth minerals
Could visit Bagger 288 about 25 years ago since a childhood buddies dad worked there as a technician. It's a sight to behold. And that image has something dystopian like out of a Blade Runner movie.
Has a different vibe than seeing it up close while it's a nice bright sunny day.
Capitalism?
Big Muskie was even bigger. My father saw it before they tore it apart and left only the bucket, and he said it made him rethink some of his life choices it was so big.
How would activists even hurt something of that magnitude??
Imagine a 15teenth century peasant seeing that shit
The police state, or that big digger behind them?
Those guys will soon find some weird eggs and something Will jump up and attach itself to their faces
This is a still from a movie,or video game,right?Right?!!
I used to visit these as part of school, and they're terrifying, I often wonder why they're not used in films. They're like some Cthulhu
Makes me proud to be a human. If any species can engineer a way to escape its self-engineered extinction, it is good ol' homo sapiens.
I have a fear of overly huge machines.. i saw ships so big In the port of Busan it made Me shiver. Not like im suuper afraid or anything more like scared/amazed of their hugeness
Also this thing makes me think about one of the Transformers movies
It's going to be beautiful when it burns :)
It’s like that scene in house of the dragon that shows how big the huge one is even in comparison to regular ones
This photo is fake. Look at the ladder guard and walkway in the middle of the wheel, the scale is wrong.
please stop spreading misinformation. this is the 258 bagger: https://youtu.be/n-uPsdHrnsQ?t=228
Misinformation? Look at the damn image, the perspective has been manipulated to make the machine look even larger than it actually is. Look at the ladder and catwalk, they’re too large compared to the people in the foreground.
how is the ladder too large? It's only about 20 meters behind those police officers, the perspective lines up perfectly
Do you need glasses? The ladder is fine because yes, the wheel is that close to these people
They said about 20 meters elsewhere. Do you need a lecture about perspective and apparent size?
That's what she said
Humans are neat.